Re: [leaf-user] The old floppy question
The floppy vs. non floppy question for me gets down to time. Agreed! I am currently working on the next generation of branch office routers for our organization. The platform is a VIA EPIA motherboard with CF boot in a 1U case with no fans and an external power supply. You can also try: http://www.jetwaycomputer.com/spec/J7F2-Series.pdf They also have a 3 NICs expansion daughter-card for the mini-ITX. Also have a look at this case: http://72.52.100.21/products/Travla/c158/C158-90W.html Other than that, agreed with most of what you said and I am doing mostly the same. - This SF.net email is sponsored by: Microsoft Defy all challenges. Microsoft(R) Visual Studio 2005. http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/vse012070mrt/direct/01/ leaf-user mailing list: leaf-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/leaf-user Support Request -- http://leaf-project.org/
Re: [leaf-user] The old floppy question
My current LEAF box would not fit into a floppy - it is 3.1MB. Just want to be clear, my current Leaf box won't fit into a floppy neither. What I do is: 1. Download the leaf.iso image and burn to a CD 2. Create leaf.cfg into a floppy and boot from the CD 3. Save configuration (configdb.lrp) and backup modules (moddb.lrp) to floppy This way I don't have to recreate my own CD. One other reason why we experience many floppy failure is the fact that we are using /dev/fd0u1680 and not the standard /dev/fd0u1440. Can anyone has more experience comment on this? Nowadays, my floppy only has three files I can go back to the 1.44mb floppy format of which I have not experience any problem. - This SF.net email is sponsored by: Microsoft Defy all challenges. Microsoft(R) Visual Studio 2005. http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/vse012070mrt/direct/01/ leaf-user mailing list: leaf-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/leaf-user Support Request -- http://leaf-project.org/
Re: [leaf-user] The old floppy question
This is actually my setup as well. I've been using the CD since it first came out way back when with Charles' distro (I think it was 1.02). I think the ability to lock the floppy with the sliding tab is invaluable. Test, make and save the changes, lock the tab and you can leave it right in the drive. Power Failure? No problem, no action needed and forget worrying about someone injecting a rootkit or what have you into system, no way to save it without physical access. Other than SD cards, do any of the CF/USB sticks offer a write protect switch? If so, I haven't seen one. Tony Kwon wrote: My current LEAF box would not fit into a floppy - it is 3.1MB. Just want to be clear, my current Leaf box won't fit into a floppy neither. What I do is: 1. Download the leaf.iso image and burn to a CD 2. Create leaf.cfg into a floppy and boot from the CD 3. Save configuration (configdb.lrp) and backup modules (moddb.lrp) to floppy This way I don't have to recreate my own CD. One other reason why we experience many floppy failure is the fact that we are using /dev/fd0u1680 and not the standard /dev/fd0u1440. Can anyone has more experience comment on this? Nowadays, my floppy only has three files I can go back to the 1.44mb floppy format of which I have not experience any problem. - This SF.net email is sponsored by: Microsoft Defy all challenges. Microsoft(R) Visual Studio 2005. http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/vse012070mrt/direct/01/ leaf-user mailing list: leaf-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/leaf-user Support Request -- http://leaf-project.org/
Re: [leaf-user] The old floppy question
Tony Tony wrote: This is actually my setup as well. I've been using the CD since it first came out way back when with Charles' distro (I think it was 1.02). I think the ability to lock the floppy with the sliding tab is invaluable. Test, make and save the changes, lock the tab and you can leave it right in the drive. Power Failure? No problem, no action needed and forget worrying about someone injecting a rootkit or what have you into system, no way to save it without physical access. Other than SD cards, do any of the CF/USB sticks offer a write protect switch? If so, I haven't seen one. USB sticks, yes, DOMs, at least one form Apacer, CFs AFAIK no. cheers Erich - This SF.net email is sponsored by: Microsoft Defy all challenges. Microsoft(R) Visual Studio 2005. http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/vse012070mrt/direct/01/ leaf-user mailing list: leaf-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/leaf-user Support Request -- http://leaf-project.org/
Re: [leaf-user] The old floppy question
-Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Kwon Sent: Friday, July 20, 2007 2:10 AM To: leaf-user@lists.sourceforge.net Subject: Re: [leaf-user] The old floppy question My current LEAF box would not fit into a floppy - it is 3.1MB. Just want to be clear, my current Leaf box won't fit into a floppy neither. What I do is: 1. Download the leaf.iso image and burn to a CD 2. Create leaf.cfg into a floppy and boot from the CD 3. Save configuration (configdb.lrp) and backup modules (moddb.lrp) to floppy This way I don't have to recreate my own CD. One other reason why we experience many floppy failure is the fact that we are using /dev/fd0u1680 and not the standard /dev/fd0u1440. Can anyone has more experience comment on this? Nowadays, my floppy only has three files I can go back to the 1.44mb floppy format of which I have not experience any problem. I use(d) the CD boot, 1.44 meg floppy save combo in several installations. Some LEAF boxes are in climate controlled machine rooms, some are on a table in a back room. The main failure I see is that the PC is unable to read the floppy on a reboot. Usually this is due to dust in the floppy drive. In most cases the floppy disk will read in another drive. Sometimes blowing the dust out of the old drive will make it work. This is a minor inconvenience if the PC is in the next room. It does mean that there is more down time that the users like. However if the PC is in a branch office in a small town far away with a minimum 2 day courier delivery and poor or no local PC repair support it can be a major problem. The floppy vs. non floppy question for me gets down to time. Yes, it is nice to reuse an old box that in our disposable society would otherwise end up as landfill and yes it is nice that that box is free but this for me must be balanced against the time you have to spend phaffing around getting the system running and also keeping it running. My time is worth money and it is the one resource that I can't stretch any further. Older systems take more time to maintain, fans dies, floppies die etc. Those PCs are designed for a disposable society. I am currently working on the next generation of branch office routers for our organization. The platform is a VIA EPIA motherboard with CF boot in a 1U case with no fans and an external power supply. It is not a cheap way to go and it takes time to set up but it does give me the flexibility to do things that an off the shelf router won't and I'm hoping that it will be very reliable. For a simple firewall/VPN solution for home users we use a Linksys firewall router. $50 and a 5 minute config and you are out the door and very few problems. If I did not need other capabilities in the branch offices I would use the same routers there. At work for me LEAF fits into a mid range niche both for expense and for time spent. It allows me to do things that a cheap off the shelf box does not as long as I put in some extra time and buy reliable hardware for it to run on. To get the same reliability as an appliance it needs to be built on a reliable platform. This gives me what I want: a configurable appliance that I can install and forget about. If LEAF packages are not available to do what I want and would be a hassle to adapt then I move up to a Linux server. For a LEAF system to make sense for me it has to be less work than maintaining a server would in terms of time spent on maintenance and in reliability. At home I use LEAF on an old PC with CD boot and a 1.44 floppy to save my config. A different balance here. I have accepted the less reliable system but it was cheap and I was usually available to fix any issues. I will be moving to a CF boot system here as well though using CF card that is too small for a camera and a $25 CF to IDE adapter. Dave - This SF.net email is sponsored by: Microsoft Defy all challenges. Microsoft(R) Visual Studio 2005. http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/vse012070mrt/direct/01/ leaf-user mailing list: leaf-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/leaf-user Support Request -- http://leaf-project.org/
Re: [leaf-user] The old floppy question
Some of the CF to IDE adapters have a write protect jumper that is easy to run out to a switch. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Tony Sent: Friday, July 20, 2007 2:54 AM Cc: leaf-user@lists.sourceforge.net Subject: Re: [leaf-user] The old floppy question This is actually my setup as well. I've been using the CD since it first came out way back when with Charles' distro (I think it was 1.02). I think the ability to lock the floppy with the sliding tab is invaluable. Test, make and save the changes, lock the tab and you can leave it right in the drive. Power Failure? No problem, no action needed and forget worrying about someone injecting a rootkit or what have you into system, no way to save it without physical access. Other than SD cards, do any of the CF/USB sticks offer a write protect switch? If so, I haven't seen one. Tony - This SF.net email is sponsored by: Microsoft Defy all challenges. Microsoft(R) Visual Studio 2005. http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/vse012070mrt/direct/01/ leaf-user mailing list: leaf-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/leaf-user Support Request -- http://leaf-project.org/
Re: [leaf-user] The old floppy question
Count me among the (few?) using old hard drives. HDPARM + /etc/init.d/spindown, and I've yet to have a drive fail in this configuration. And I'm using really old (Conner anyone?) drives with 100MB DOS partitions. I use SCP to keep a copy of the config files offsite for each Leaf box so if a drive does fail, I format another, syslinux copy the LRPs and config files, and it would be back in business. The write protection of floppy is definitely an advantage, but has anyone had their Leaf box compromised in a way where that would have mattered? - Bob Coffman - This SF.net email is sponsored by: Microsoft Defy all challenges. Microsoft(R) Visual Studio 2005. http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/vse012070mrt/direct/01/ leaf-user mailing list: leaf-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/leaf-user Support Request -- http://leaf-project.org/
Re: [leaf-user] The old floppy question
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Kwon wrote: Some times ago, I rebooted an old LRP floppy based Firewall (with an uptime of 2 years) only to discover that the floppy has gone. From that moment I use Compact Flashes. My 2 cents Do you mean you don't have another backup of your floppy disk? Of course, I had anoother floppy :-) But it was not working, too :-( And I had another backup-image on my PC :-) That has not floppy :-( So I went to a store for a USB Floppy Drive :-) Only to discover I'd not the correct drive :-( But, with the help of BigG, I discovered it on the Internet :-) Then I installed the driver and made a copy of the floppy Only to discover that the old floppy was malfunctioning :-( So i passed on CF ... Sorry for the long story ;-) Giovanni -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.2 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFGnx2g4yUxzYWi6QcRAtZSAKDZ4yoLReM3W3YTK3ChMNBtDsZjPwCggliv aUCuuxaMZpD4WQcSwerIVR4= =ILdi -END PGP SIGNATURE- - This SF.net email is sponsored by DB2 Express Download DB2 Express C - the FREE version of DB2 express and take control of your XML. No limits. Just data. Click to get it now. http://sourceforge.net/powerbar/db2/ leaf-user mailing list: leaf-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/leaf-user Support Request -- http://leaf-project.org/
Re: [leaf-user] The old floppy question
Imagine this scenario, you have LEAF boxes spread all over your country, would you trust floppy disks on your installations even with backups around? Floppy disk devices have movable parts, CFs don't, usb-sticks don't, I personally haven't used any floppies for 4 years now, period. Regards, Harry. - This SF.net email is sponsored by: Microsoft Defy all challenges. Microsoft Visual Studio 2005. http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/vse012070mrt/direct/01/ leaf-user mailing list: leaf-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/leaf-user Support Request -- http://leaf-project.org/
Re: [leaf-user] The old floppy question
This may be prudent, but it may not be reality. If you were worried about resiliency, would you be using old or repurposed hardware to begin with? I agree that CF's or USB sticks are a better choice, but the user base seems to be indicating that the floppy isn't dead yet. Tony Harry Lachanas wrote: Imagine this scenario, you have LEAF boxes spread all over your country, would you trust floppy disks on your installations even with backups around? Floppy disk devices have movable parts, CFs don't, usb-sticks don't, I personally haven't used any floppies for 4 years now, period. Regards, Harry. - This SF.net email is sponsored by: Microsoft Defy all challenges. Microsoft Visual Studio 2005. http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/vse012070mrt/direct/01/ leaf-user mailing list: leaf-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/leaf-user Support Request -- http://leaf-project.org/ - This SF.net email is sponsored by: Microsoft Defy all challenges. Microsoft Visual Studio 2005. http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/vse012070mrt/direct/01/ leaf-user mailing list: leaf-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/leaf-user Support Request -- http://leaf-project.org/
Re: [leaf-user] The old floppy question
This may be prudent, but it may not be reality. If you were worried about resiliency, would you be using old or repurposed hardware to begin with? Not so old!!! Depends on case. I agree that CF's or USB sticks are a better choice, but the user base seems to be indicating that the floppy isn't dead yet. Agreed, I guess is ok or whatever for home use or simple cases. Even though for home use is a waste of energy having an old PC instead of a small routerboard like device 12-24V. Harry - This SF.net email is sponsored by: Microsoft Defy all challenges. Microsoft Visual Studio 2005. http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/vse012070mrt/direct/01/ leaf-user mailing list: leaf-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/leaf-user Support Request -- http://leaf-project.org/
Re: [leaf-user] The old floppy question
Tony wrote: This may be prudent, but it may not be reality. If you were worried about resiliency, would you be using old or repurposed hardware to begin with? I agree that CF's or USB sticks are a better choice, but the user base seems to be indicating that the floppy isn't dead yet. Tony Harry Lachanas wrote: Imagine this scenario, you have LEAF boxes spread all over your country, would you trust floppy disks on your installations even with backups around? Floppy disk devices have movable parts, CFs don't, usb-sticks don't, I personally haven't used any floppies for 4 years now, period. Regards, Harry. Imagine this scenario, I'm a person who hates to throw working stuff away. So I have two identical back-up machines ready in the shelf if my main Hw decides to buy the farm. I have recently also salvaged a 5½ floppy drive just in case I want to go really medieval on this...and yes I have the floppies for a lifetime. I could always go to the Pc-superstore and buy a ready system. What's the fun in that? All releases are tried and if accepted by my let's see if this works method are made to a disk image complete with settings and all needed drivers but nothing extra for quick recovery. There is always two identical disks ready for service. Disk will only be read once a month in average. I usually also pull the media out after booting since firewall is protected by a UPS so it will stay up even if there is power outage, same goes for ADSL. Actually there was a blackout recently and only electronic devices still on in our neighborhood were my firewall and ADSL and the UPS beeping...creepy. OK but to the point. Is there a tried and easy method to make a IDE-CF image based on the disk version I'm now using? -Marko - This SF.net email is sponsored by: Microsoft Defy all challenges. Microsoft Visual Studio 2005. http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/vse012070mrt/direct/01/ leaf-user mailing list: leaf-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/leaf-user Support Request -- http://leaf-project.org/
Re: [leaf-user] The old floppy question
On Thursday 19 July 2007 18:11:55 Harry Lachanas wrote: Imagine this scenario, you have LEAF boxes spread all over your country, would you trust floppy disks on your installations even with backups around? Floppy disk devices have movable parts, CFs don't, usb-sticks don't, I personally haven't used any floppies for 4 years now, period. Harry; I agree - the less movable parts a router has, the more reliable it will be over the years. Therefor LEAF provides ISO images, USB images and the ability to boot from harddisk, CF and whatever. One good reason to provide a floppy-based version is not just about to reuse old hardware, which btw is always a good starting point for new users to get in touch with a more secure and better adaptable software than delivered with the usual SoHo routers. For developers the floppy orientation is more or less a synonym for discpline and concentration on the goals. In contrast to the early days the costs for storage space is neglectable today. And yes, USB sticks are cheaper and easier to buy than floppy disks. It's easy to build a router based on Debian or any other Linux distro. But it's questionable if users have that easy that much control over the software installed, and therefor the potential security issues. In the long run the embedded aspect in LEAF may get more attention than today, so space will become more important again. The whole issue started with the question can we go with a 2.6 kernel and what about the floppies then?. IMHO moving forward to a 2.6 kernel is a good idea. For the floppy versions the current branch can be maintained for a long time - as long as users understand that only harwdare supported by the 2.4 kernels can be used and that not every new package (version) can be added, because it can't be backported (easily). A floppy version based on 2.6 kernel may be doable as well, but for less usage scenarios than today (dhcpd and pppoe are both on the current images), maybe without a ntp daemon and other software. So either as proof-of-concept or by building several floppy images instead of one as today. So it's mainly not a question of preserving floppies as one target or forget about it; it's mainly a question of manpower to start with new versions, probably ports to other architectures beyond the x86 as of today and to improve the tools we developed over the last years to build LEAF software. kp - This SF.net email is sponsored by: Microsoft Defy all challenges. Microsoft Visual Studio 2005. http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/vse012070mrt/direct/01/ leaf-user mailing list: leaf-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/leaf-user Support Request -- http://leaf-project.org/
Re: [leaf-user] The old floppy question
Imagine this scenario, you have LEAF boxes spread all over your country, would you trust floppy disks on your installations even with backups around? I don't! I have only a few clients that are using Leaf boxes and the setup is identical: Old PC, 64-128mb Ram, CD with original .iso, 3 NICs and a floppy I also have endless supplies of the above hardware. Btw, Linux and open source are all about choice(s). - This SF.net email is sponsored by: Microsoft Defy all challenges. Microsoft Visual Studio 2005. http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/vse012070mrt/direct/01/ leaf-user mailing list: leaf-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/leaf-user Support Request -- http://leaf-project.org/
Re: [leaf-user] The old floppy question
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Marko Nurmenniemi wrote: ... OK but to the point. Is there a tried and easy method to make a IDE-CF image based on the disk version I'm now using? -Marko At the very fist time I worked as follow - - copy all floppy on a folder on my PC (Linux) - - copy initrd.lrp from this folder on /tmp/initrd.gz - - gunzip /tmp/initrd.gz - - mount -o loop /tmp/initrd /mnt - - cp ide-mod.o /mnt/boot/lib/modules - - echo ide-disk /mnt/boot/etc/modules - - echo ide-probe-mod /mnt/boot/etc/modules - - umount /mnt - - gzip /tmp/initrd - - copy /tmp/initrd.gz into the original folder then - - insert the cf into an adaptor (ide or PCMCIA) - - perform dmesg to see the device - - with fdisk /dev/device create a partition: - fdisk /dev/device - n (new partition) - p (primary) - 1 (first) - Default (first cylinder) - Default (last cylinder) --- - a (make partition bootable) - 1 (partition) --- - t (change partition type) - 1 (partition) - 6 (FAT 16) --- - w (write and exit) - - make filesystem mkdosfs /dev/device - - install syslinux syslinux -s /dev/device - - avoid syslinux from your directory (the goot was created by syslinus on your CF): rm /the_directory_from_floppy/ldlinux.sys - - Mount cf card mount /dev/device /mnt - - Copy all files - cp /the_directory_from_floppy/* /mnt - sync - umount /mnt - - Extract CF and use on your system HTH Giovanni -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.2 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFGn5194yUxzYWi6QcRAq7KAJ0aQNIIK5SSkavreVRn7IXr8/AMiwCZARzZ lQp3G4LijLFIk+Tcsn+19QE= =Jnac -END PGP SIGNATURE- - This SF.net email is sponsored by: Microsoft Defy all challenges. Microsoft(R) Visual Studio 2005. http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/vse012070mrt/direct/01/ leaf-user mailing list: leaf-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/leaf-user Support Request -- http://leaf-project.org/
Re: [leaf-user] The old floppy question
At the very fist time I worked as follow - - copy all floppy on a folder on my PC (Linux) - - copy initrd.lrp from this folder on /tmp/initrd.gz - - gunzip /tmp/initrd.gz - - mount -o loop /tmp/initrd /mnt - - cp ide-mod.o /mnt/boot/lib/modules - - echo ide-disk /mnt/boot/etc/modules - - echo ide-probe-mod /mnt/boot/etc/modules - - umount /mnt - - gzip /tmp/initrd - - copy /tmp/initrd.gz into the original folder mv /cdrfom/initrd_ide_cd.lrp /tmp/initrd.lrp cdrom=BERING iso image then - - insert the cf into an adaptor (ide or PCMCIA) - - perform dmesg to see the device - - with fdisk /dev/device create a partition: - fdisk /dev/device - n (new partition) - p (primary) - 1 (first) - Default (first cylinder) - Default (last cylinder) --- - a (make partition bootable) - 1 (partition) --- - t (change partition type) - 1 (partition) - 6 (FAT 16) --- - w (write and exit) - - make filesystem mkdosfs /dev/device - - install syslinux syslinux -s /dev/device - - avoid syslinux from your directory (the goot was created by syslinus on your CF): rm /the_directory_from_floppy/ldlinux.sys - - Mount cf card mount /dev/device /mnt - - Copy all files - cp /the_directory_from_floppy/* /mnt - sync - umount /mnt - - Extract CF and use on your system HTH Giovanni -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.2 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFGn5194yUxzYWi6QcRAq7KAJ0aQNIIK5SSkavreVRn7IXr8/AMiwCZARzZ lQp3G4LijLFIk+Tcsn+19QE= =Jnac -END PGP SIGNATURE- - This SF.net email is sponsored by: Microsoft Defy all challenges. Microsoft(R) Visual Studio 2005. http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/vse012070mrt/direct/01/ leaf-user mailing list: leaf-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/leaf-user Support Request -- http://leaf-project.org/ - This SF.net email is sponsored by: Microsoft Defy all challenges. Microsoft(R) Visual Studio 2005. http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/vse012070mrt/direct/01/ leaf-user mailing list: leaf-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/leaf-user Support Request -- http://leaf-project.org/
Re: [leaf-user] The old floppy question
Hi All, Here is my opinion on the floppy question. I have been using LEAF for firewalls ever since LRP 2.9.x. Over the years I have tried just about every way of booting the system, floppies, ZIP, LS120, HD, CD + floppy for config and CF. In all cases when a floppy or floppy like device (ZIP or LS120) was used I have had failures. The HD based systems have had much better reliability. I have just started using CF based systems so I don't have any history on reliability yet but I expect that this will be more reliable. If you want reliability then floppies are not the way to go. Use a modern air bearing HD or use CF. Floppies are also fading away. I have not bought a machine for work in the last 3 years that has a floppy installed Why do I use LEAF at all? You can buy a decent ready to go out of the box firewall that supports wireless, VPNs, web based config and runs an embedded Linux distro from Linksys for less that $50 now so what advantage does LEAF offer? I still use LEAF for firewalls because of the more complex things that I can do with it. Most of my configs will not even fit onto a floppy. LEAF and the future. I certainly have no objection to small or floppy based systems for those that want to use them unless doing so holds back the development of LEAF. It seems to me (from a non developers point of view) that a lot of effort is being expended trying to shoe horn the current system into a bootable system smaller than 1.6 MB. Splitting the distro into 2 streams has been mentioned. This could be a good solution if the resources are available to do it. Personally I would rather spend a little money on adding CF or USB boot capacity to a system. LEAF is a great distro. The recent changes to Bering uClibc especially the new backup procedures are a huge step forward. I would hate to see LEAF fall behind due to a decision to support obsolete hardware. So that's my opinion. Not a complaint, just another data point. I really appreciate all of the work that the LEAF team has put in. Dave - This SF.net email is sponsored by: Microsoft Defy all challenges. Microsoft(R) Visual Studio 2005. http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/vse012070mrt/direct/01/ leaf-user mailing list: leaf-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/leaf-user Support Request -- http://leaf-project.org/
Re: [leaf-user] The old floppy question
Hello, I would like to add my own straw to the camel's back. I last used a floppy (DSL, not LEAF, I think) about four years ago as an emergency boot. (My CF was scrambled, and the backup had found its way into a childs camera...). My current LEAF box would not fit into a floppy - it is 3.1MB. However, I do remember spending a rather nice afternoon paring down the setup so it *would* fit. I found that: 1. The rigor of the floppy-limit made me think about what I wanted from the box, what I wanted to do, and how I could do it. 2. The embedded-ish box I was working towards responded well to a smaller installation - it leaves more space for logging/debugging/tracing. Is it true that 'smaller' still has some practical value on very tiny devices? 3. Smaller boots faster. (mostly) (sometimes?) Or am I kidding myself? Of these, I like the first the best - the size limit is an essentially arbitrary restriction that focuses me on getting what I want cleanly and well. If we were doing poetry, LEAF is a Haiku, not a Scandinavian epic. Sam - This SF.net email is sponsored by: Microsoft Defy all challenges. Microsoft(R) Visual Studio 2005. http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/vse012070mrt/direct/01/ leaf-user mailing list: leaf-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/leaf-user Support Request -- http://leaf-project.org/
Re: [leaf-user] The old floppy question
This may be prudent, but it may not be reality. If you were worried about resiliency, would you be using old or repurposed hardware to begin with? Because some people (owners, bosses, comptrollers, et al) pinch pennies. Cost reduction is the business mantra these days. There's always some old box around that's been amortized down to nothing that can do the job. If you can do the job without spending money, vs. spending money to do the same job, guess which they choose? I agree that CF's or USB sticks are a better choice, If they are for you, feel free. Why impose your preferences on everybody else? but the user base seems to be indicating that the floppy isn't dead yet. Not around here. Besides, NOBODY walks away with a diskette! ;-) Thumbdrives seem to come with feet. Paul Rogers ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://www.xprt.net/~pgrogers/ http://www.geocities.com/paulgrogers/ Rogers' Second Law: Everything you do communicates. (I do not personally endorse any additions after this line. TANSTAAFL :-) - This SF.net email is sponsored by: Microsoft Defy all challenges. Microsoft(R) Visual Studio 2005. http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/vse012070mrt/direct/01/ leaf-user mailing list: leaf-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/leaf-user Support Request -- http://leaf-project.org/
Re: [leaf-user] The old floppy question
main Hw decides to buy the farm. I have recently also salvaged a 5 1/2 floppy drive just in case I want to go really medieval on this...and yes I have the floppies for a lifetime. I could always go to the Pc-superstore We also keep OLD hardware around, just in case. There's never enough budget to recopy all our old backups to new media, and our legal department wouldn't even allow it. We try hard to preserve our ability to read any media we've ever used, even if we're not sure, but think maybe someone might have, somewhere. When NASA was planning its missions to Jupiter, it figured out it had some useful data from old Voyager missions. They found the tapes, nicely cataloged. But they were 7-track tapes. Over the years ALL their computers had been upgraded and replaced. Call IBM! Sorry, Sir, we don't have any customers with maintenance contracts on 7-track tape drives. We don't know where you could read those tapes. Have you tried one of the computer museums? Then MAKE us one! Umm, we'll get back to you, Sir. Sir, we're sorry, we can find some old 9-track drives, but we don't have any 7-track heads in any inventory. We haven't made any of those since the 50's. Months later. Umm, Sir? Are you still interested in a 7-track tape drive? One of our people found one that had fallen behind a rack. We might be able to re-engineer one of the last 9-track drive models to use it. Would you like an RPQ? (Request for Price Quotation) Sir, we have your RPQ available. That would be $1,000,000. Would you like us to proceed? Paul Rogers ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://www.xprt.net/~pgrogers/ http://www.geocities.com/paulgrogers/ Rogers' Second Law: Everything you do communicates. (I do not personally endorse any additions after this line. TANSTAAFL :-) - This SF.net email is sponsored by: Microsoft Defy all challenges. Microsoft(R) Visual Studio 2005. http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/vse012070mrt/direct/01/ leaf-user mailing list: leaf-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/leaf-user Support Request -- http://leaf-project.org/
Re: [leaf-user] The old floppy question
Lets make a poll to find out how many of us are booting bering from a floppy and decide from there. I still favor use Bering 1.2 floppies. I like the security of the write-protect slider. And part of the idea about Linux, and Bering firewalls in particular, is repurposing old hardware for a new useful task. It's not so hard to find boxes of an appropriate horsepower for the task that came with floppies. Paul Rogers ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://www.xprt.net/~pgrogers/ Rogers' Second Law: Everything you do communicates. (I do not personally endorse any additions after this line. TANSTAAFL :-) - This SF.net email is sponsored by DB2 Express Download DB2 Express C - the FREE version of DB2 express and take control of your XML. No limits. Just data. Click to get it now. http://sourceforge.net/powerbar/db2/ leaf-user mailing list: leaf-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/leaf-user Support Request -- http://leaf-project.org/
Re: [leaf-user] The old floppy question
Lets make a poll to find out how many of us are booting bering from a floppy and decide from there. I still favor use Bering 1.2 floppies. I like the security of the write-protect slider. And part of the idea about Linux, and Bering firewalls in particular, is repurposing old hardware for a new useful task. It's not so hard to find boxes of an appropriate horsepower for the task that came with floppies. Paul Rogers ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://www.xprt.net/~pgrogers/ Rogers' Second Law: Everything you do communicates. (I do not personally endorse any additions after this line. TANSTAAFL :-) - This SF.net email is sponsored by DB2 Express Download DB2 Express C - the FREE version of DB2 express and take control of your XML. No limits. Just data. Click to get it now. http://sourceforge.net/powerbar/db2/ leaf-user mailing list: leaf-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/leaf-user Support Request -- http://leaf-project.org/
Re: [leaf-user] The old floppy question
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Lets make a poll to find out how many of us are booting bering from a floppy and decide from there. I still favor use Bering 1.2 floppies. I like the security of the write-protect slider. And part of the idea about Linux, and Bering firewalls in particular, is repurposing old hardware for a new useful task. It's not so hard to find boxes of an appropriate horsepower for the task that came with floppies. Paul Rogers ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://www.xprt.net/~pgrogers/ Rogers' Second Law: Everything you do communicates. (I do not personally endorse any additions after this line. TANSTAAFL :-) This is a spinoff from some other list? Anyhuu, my poor old 486/50 @ 16MB has been running for years (5+) with just a floppy drive. I have not found a suitable as easy way to run this firewall. Somewhere in boxes there is IDE-CompactFlash adapter but never get around to making it work... What's the back story here? -Marko - This SF.net email is sponsored by DB2 Express Download DB2 Express C - the FREE version of DB2 express and take control of your XML. No limits. Just data. Click to get it now. http://sourceforge.net/powerbar/db2/ leaf-user mailing list: leaf-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/leaf-user Support Request -- http://leaf-project.org/
Re: [leaf-user] The old floppy question
-Original Message- Sent: Wednesday, July 18, 2007 6:29 PM To: leaf-user@lists.sourceforge.net Subject: Re: [leaf-user] The old floppy question Lets make a poll to find out how many of us are booting bering from a floppy and decide from there. I still favor use Bering 1.2 floppies. I like the security of the write-protect slider. And part of the idea about Linux, and Bering firewalls in particular, is repurposing old hardware for a new useful task. It's not so hard to find boxes of an appropriate horsepower for the task that came with floppies. My production firewall boxen are still running off diskettes. The downside compared with a CF/IDE box I use for testing is (1) slower boot and (2) limited space for packages. But as long as the required packages fit on a diskette, this is just not an issue for a firewall that reboots maybe a couple of times a year. I have access to a virtually unlimited supply of P3 desktops with diskette drives. These have plenty of horsepower for a firewall. My production setup has an identical spare sitting on top of the running firewall with a copy of the diskette in the drive and instructions to move the Ethernet cables and and power cord to the spare should anything happen. There is no display, no keyboard, no mouse and the IDE disk is disconnected. The BIOS is configured to boot whenever power is restored. This provides a very high level of redundancy, essentially at no cost. There are many other ways to achieve this. But this solution is so simple and straightforward to understand and implement that I can see no reason to change. I believe diskette based LEAF routers will live a long life because once you get one set up and configured there is rarely a good reason to mess with it unless something breaks or until the needs change. Bottom line: If it ain't broke, don't fix it. Cheers, -Bob - This SF.net email is sponsored by DB2 Express Download DB2 Express C - the FREE version of DB2 express and take control of your XML. No limits. Just data. Click to get it now. http://sourceforge.net/powerbar/db2/ leaf-user mailing list: leaf-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/leaf-user Support Request -- http://leaf-project.org/
Re: [leaf-user] The old floppy question
I too use floppy boot disk for several firewalls, one boots off hard disk with floppy backup. Other rack-mount boxes I've yet to setup to run off the internal 64MB flash disks. --Cal Webster On Wed, 2007-07-18 at 15:11, Bob Gregory wrote: -Original Message- Sent: Wednesday, July 18, 2007 6:29 PM To: leaf-user@lists.sourceforge.net Subject: Re: [leaf-user] The old floppy question Lets make a poll to find out how many of us are booting bering from a floppy and decide from there. I still favor use Bering 1.2 floppies. I like the security of the write-protect slider. And part of the idea about Linux, and Bering firewalls in particular, is repurposing old hardware for a new useful task. It's not so hard to find boxes of an appropriate horsepower for the task that came with floppies. My production firewall boxen are still running off diskettes. The downside compared with a CF/IDE box I use for testing is (1) slower boot and (2) limited space for packages. But as long as the required packages fit on a diskette, this is just not an issue for a firewall that reboots maybe a couple of times a year. I have access to a virtually unlimited supply of P3 desktops with diskette drives. These have plenty of horsepower for a firewall. My production setup has an identical spare sitting on top of the running firewall with a copy of the diskette in the drive and instructions to move the Ethernet cables and and power cord to the spare should anything happen. There is no display, no keyboard, no mouse and the IDE disk is disconnected. The BIOS is configured to boot whenever power is restored. This provides a very high level of redundancy, essentially at no cost. There are many other ways to achieve this. But this solution is so simple and straightforward to understand and implement that I can see no reason to change. I believe diskette based LEAF routers will live a long life because once you get one set up and configured there is rarely a good reason to mess with it unless something breaks or until the needs change. Bottom line: If it ain't broke, don't fix it. Cheers, -Bob - This SF.net email is sponsored by DB2 Express Download DB2 Express C - the FREE version of DB2 express and take control of your XML. No limits. Just data. Click to get it now. http://sourceforge.net/powerbar/db2/ leaf-user mailing list: leaf-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/leaf-user Support Request -- http://leaf-project.org/ - This SF.net email is sponsored by DB2 Express Download DB2 Express C - the FREE version of DB2 express and take control of your XML. No limits. Just data. Click to get it now. http://sourceforge.net/powerbar/db2/ leaf-user mailing list: leaf-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/leaf-user Support Request -- http://leaf-project.org/
Re: [leaf-user] The old floppy question
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Lets make a poll to find out how many of us are booting bering from a floppy and decide from there. I still favor use Bering 1.2 floppies. I like the security of the write-protect slider. And part of the idea about Linux, and Bering firewalls in particular, is repurposing old hardware for a new useful task. It's not so hard to find boxes of an appropriate horsepower for the task that came with floppies. Paul Rogers ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://www.xprt.net/~pgrogers/ Rogers' Second Law: Everything you do communicates. (I do not personally endorse any additions after this line. TANSTAAFL :-) Some times ago, I rebooted an old LRP floppy based Firewall (with an uptime of 2 years) only to discover that the floppy has gone. From that moment I use Compact Flashes. My 2 cents Giovanni -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.2 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFGnn574yUxzYWi6QcRAtQGAJ4nAmZ/R/VFcPDTJSADVfor/n1SRgCcC9Je /VFjVwYeB3jO1le+9+5/H0c= =qWtL -END PGP SIGNATURE- - This SF.net email is sponsored by DB2 Express Download DB2 Express C - the FREE version of DB2 express and take control of your XML. No limits. Just data. Click to get it now. http://sourceforge.net/powerbar/db2/ leaf-user mailing list: leaf-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/leaf-user Support Request -- http://leaf-project.org/
Re: [leaf-user] The old floppy question
I tottaly agree with you. I had hard times with floppies. For a professional setup I recommend USB flash or compact flash. If your configs don't change a lot like mine burn a CD. Why don't support kernel 2.4 and give a new branch for kernel 2.6 ? giovanni wrote: Some times ago, I rebooted an old LRP floppy based Firewall (with an uptime of 2 years) only to discover that the floppy has gone. From that moment I use Compact Flashes. My 2 cents - This SF.net email is sponsored by DB2 Express Download DB2 Express C - the FREE version of DB2 express and take control of your XML. No limits. Just data. Click to get it now. http://sourceforge.net/powerbar/db2/ leaf-user mailing list: leaf-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/leaf-user Support Request -- http://leaf-project.org/
Re: [leaf-user] The old floppy question
Christian Villa Real Lopes schrieb: I tottaly agree with you. I had hard times with floppies. For a professional setup I recommend USB flash or compact flash. If your configs don't change a lot like mine burn a CD. Why don't support kernel 2.4 and give a new branch for kernel 2.6 ? Basically that is what I'm aiming at :-) cheers Erich - This SF.net email is sponsored by DB2 Express Download DB2 Express C - the FREE version of DB2 express and take control of your XML. No limits. Just data. Click to get it now. http://sourceforge.net/powerbar/db2/ leaf-user mailing list: leaf-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/leaf-user Support Request -- http://leaf-project.org/
Re: [leaf-user] The old floppy question
On Wed, 2007-07-18 at 22:11 +0300, Bob Gregory wrote: My production firewall boxen are still running off diskettes. The downside compared with a CF/IDE box I use for testing is (1) slower boot and (2) limited space for packages. But as long as the required packages fit on a diskette, this is just not an issue for a firewall that reboots maybe a couple of times a year. Don't forget: (3) poor media/drive reliability (4) ease of maintainability (not many new machines have floppy drives) I've been running LEAF/LRP systems for over 6 years. The only problems I've had with the machines not booting has been bad floppies (4 times). Since converting to CF I've never had a problem (with several more installs as well). Personally, I don't consider floppies economical for even home installs anymore (ide-cf + cf card is about $30 - $40 / unit retail). I should mention that even with floppies my LEAF firewalls still beat my Cisco routers (doing the firewalling) for reliability :) -- Trev Peterson Advanced Reality Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Phone: +1 847 406 9018 - This SF.net email is sponsored by DB2 Express Download DB2 Express C - the FREE version of DB2 express and take control of your XML. No limits. Just data. Click to get it now. http://sourceforge.net/powerbar/db2/ leaf-user mailing list: leaf-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/leaf-user Support Request -- http://leaf-project.org/
Re: [leaf-user] The old floppy question
Some times ago, I rebooted an old LRP floppy based Firewall (with an uptime of 2 years) only to discover that the floppy has gone. From that moment I use Compact Flashes. My 2 cents Do you mean you don't have another backup of your floppy disk? - This SF.net email is sponsored by DB2 Express Download DB2 Express C - the FREE version of DB2 express and take control of your XML. No limits. Just data. Click to get it now. http://sourceforge.net/powerbar/db2/ leaf-user mailing list: leaf-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/leaf-user Support Request -- http://leaf-project.org/
Re: [leaf-user] The old floppy question
Why don't support kernel 2.4 and give a new branch for kernel 2.6 ? Basically that is what I'm aiming at :-) As for the 2.6.x branch, the ability to save configuration files to a floppy should also be supported, thanks! Leaf user since 2002 and a very happy customer indeed! ;-) - This SF.net email is sponsored by DB2 Express Download DB2 Express C - the FREE version of DB2 express and take control of your XML. No limits. Just data. Click to get it now. http://sourceforge.net/powerbar/db2/ leaf-user mailing list: leaf-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/leaf-user Support Request -- http://leaf-project.org/
