Re: IBM has no realistic entry-level offering in the mainframe space
On Monday 02 December 2002 07:17 pm, you wrote: On Mon, 2 Dec 2002 13:29, you wrote: For me, too. Personally I think we should persuade IBM to actually assist the hobby computer market, by providing releases of, say, VM, that have been removed from the normal sales channels. It would be provided on a, pay for the distribution media, but don't bother us for service, and support. But I might be leaving myself open to a complaint from Jim Elliot for shooting my mouth, or writing talents off, without thinking here, so don't quote me in context. I would be delighted to have access to the latest unsupported software. MVS 3.8 is a bit old for me to find attactive. I can run it, but so what? MVS 3.8 skills probably aren't very useful now, and the available compilers were obsolete when I used MVS 3.8 in a former life. If I use the PL/1 F compiler I suspect the code won't even compile with current PL/1 compilers - I recall an incompatibilty between PL/1-F and the optimising compiler back then. Grant access to early OS/390 (I'm guessing there are some now not supported), compilers for Pl/1 and COBOL, CICS and DB2 (plus fixes all round) in similar terms that apply to the download versions of DB2. Worried about piracy? One or more mods to ensure it will _only_ run on Hercules - I'm sure Jay would implement an appropriate diagnose or some such, or even just insist the model be 3168. Maybe, a self-help forum at news.software.ibm.com where IBM folk could help out a bit and get feedback. Well, the DEC-now-Compaq-now-Hewlett Packard OpenVMS hobbyist outfit certainly isn't making them lose their hair, and it's making them friends. They even release the source code on CD. All that is needed is a commitment to supporting the hobbyists with Out-of-Print documentation and some End-of-Support OSes, with perhaps a free hobbyist membership in something like SHARE a la the free membership in DECUS, minus the Commercial support side of things, and I have no doubt IBM will find itself with more up-and-coming MF sys-admins etc than they thought could exist. Certainly more than Harry Singh considered possible in his Unix for MVS Programmers book. Just my $0.02. Wesley Parish -- Mau e ki, He aha te mea nui? You ask, What is the most important thing? Maku e ki, He tangata, he tangata, he tangata. I reply, It is people, it is people, it is people.
Re: IBM has no realistic entry-level offering in the mainframe space
On Mon, Dec 02, 2002 at 12:53:50PM +0800, John Summerfield wrote: On Mon, 2 Dec 2002 12:42, you wrote: $13K entry point (not 20K) for their own system with software loan amounts to an impediment that forecloses their effort. I am aware of one-man shops taking IBM up on the offering, so Mr. Szumovski's post to the contrary is factually incorrect. The difference between $13K and $20K for this purpose is insignificant; it's still a huge sum of money for someone who's not planning to make lots of money from the product. Don't forget, also, that the prospective developer needs to write a business plan that the folks at IBM will approve; I have no idea how tough the approval process is. (I'm not in a position to try, either; even if I could swing the $13K, I don't have a product in mind that IBM would want to support.) Some may find $US13 000 affordable. For me, it's sometthing to dream about. Indeed. I'm probably pretty rare in that $1500 for a MCA P/390 was something I could get without stretching too far. An order of magnitude above that is just plain out of the question.
Re: IBM has no realistic entry-level offering in the mainframe space
On Mon, 2 Dec 2002 12:53:50 +0800, John Summerfield wrote: On Mon, 2 Dec 2002 12:42, you wrote: $13K entry point (not 20K) for their own system with software loan amounts to an impediment that forecloses their effort. I am aware of one-man shops taking IBM up on the offering, so Mr. Szumovski's post to the contrary is factually incorrect. Some may find $US13 000 affordable. For me, it's sometthing to dream about. I certainly don't find $13K all that affordable either. But I can't help thinking - I am a licensed radio-amateur - haven't been active for a while, but - the costs involved in either buying ready-built equipment or buying the equipment necessary to build your own were not something to be ignored. I bought a 2nd hand HP scope 2 or 3 years ago - not the top of the line, ended up paying EUR2000. And then think of prices for eg. spectrum-analysers or digital signal analysers. They don't come cheap. Putting up a tower-mast for a short-wave arial is not cheap either. Etc. etc. PCB design software like Protel will cost you USD5000 or so - and they don't have a hobbyist license either :-( So, although I *totally* agree with all of the arguments why IBM should make eg. OS390 available on a hobbyist basis (and not at $13K), doing other things on a hobbyist basis are expensive too. regards, Per Jessen, Zurich http://www.enidan.com - home of the J1 serial console. Genius may have its limitations, but stupidity is not thus handicapped.
Re: IBM has no realistic entry-level offering in the mainframe space
On Mon, Dec 02, 2002 at 11:08:22AM +0100, Per Jessen wrote: I am a licensed radio-amateur - haven't been active for a while, but - the costs involved in either buying ready-built equipment or buying the equipment necessary to build your own were not something to be ignored. I bought a 2nd hand HP scope 2 or 3 years ago - not the top of the line, ended up paying EUR2000. And then think of prices for eg. spectrum-analysers or digital signal analysers. They don't come cheap. Putting up a tower-mast for a short-wave arial is not cheap either. Etc. etc. PCB design software like Protel will cost you USD5000 or so - and they don't have a hobbyist license either :-( All of that is true, but you don't need the expensive stuff either to homebrew or get on the air with a commercial radio. I've never spent more than $750 on a radio, or other piece of non-computer electronics. It's possible to get on the air with a US$100 used HW-101. (I'm K5ZC.) So, although I *totally* agree with all of the arguments why IBM should make eg. OS390 available on a hobbyist basis (and not at $13K), doing other things on a hobbyist basis are expensive too. With other things, though, it's possible to get in cheap at the low end. There is no corresponding way to get in cheap here.
Re: HiperSockets and Guest LAN
Hi... I think your chandev.conf file is OK (but I am no expert on driver configuration). The IDX Termination code 0x17 usually means that the data device could not be found, or it belongs to a different adapter. If you can access the primary 3270 virtual console where you logon and IPL your Linux system, there are some CP commands that might provide more insight: (1) What version of CP are you running? Enter: CP QUERY CPLEVEL I would expect to see something like this: z/VM Version 4 Release 2.0, service level (64-bit) Generated at 10/28/02 14:32:45 EST IPL at 10/30/02 12:04:46 EST If you get an error message instead, then you may need to use a different method to enter CP commands. CP is the layer that runs between your Linux system and the real machine. One way to enter a CP command is: Signal PA1 (Programmed Attention 1) from your telnet-3270 client. This should put your session in CP READ status (displayed in the lower right corner of the 3270 session). The command that you enter in CP READ status goes directly to CP. Depending on your virtual machine settings, you may go back to a VM status after each command. If that is the case, you will need to signal PA1 before each command. If you STAY in CP READ after each command, enter CP BEGIN after the last command to get your virtual machine running again. (2) What level of VM Guest LAN service has been installed? Enter: CP QUERY VMLAN (3) How is your adapter defined? Enter: CP QUERY NIC DETAIL (4) How is the LAN defined? Not relevent to this problem, but for future reference, your adapter at 0960 may indicate it is connected to a LAN identified by two tokens. The first is the ownerid, the second is the lanname. If (for example) ownerid = SYSTEM and lanname = LNXLAN02 then you could find out who is currently connected to that LAN with the command: CP QUERY LAN LNXLAN02 OWNER SYSTEM DETAIL (4) Don't forget to enter CP BEGIN if you are still in CP READ status. Please post the results. Regards, Dennis Musselwhite ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) IBM Corporation -- z/VM Development -- CP Network Simulation Jørgen Birkhaug [EMAIL PROTECTED]@VM.MARIST.EDU on 11/29/2002 08:31:00 AM Please respond to Linux on 390 Port [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent by:Linux on 390 Port [EMAIL PROTECTED] To:[EMAIL PROTECTED] cc: Subject:[LINUX-390] HiperSockets and Guest LAN Hi I'm having problems setting getting my qeth interface to work running on a virgin 2.4.19 kernel patched with the may 2002 stream. I suspect that it might be a problem with chandev and syntax, and I have been screwing around with chandev for some time but to no avail. insmod qeth returns: -- IPv6 v0.8 for NET4.0 IPv6 over IPv4 tunneling driver 802.1Q VLAN Support v1.7 Ben Greear [EMAIL PROTECTED] All bugs added by David S. Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED] qdio: loading QDIO base support version 2 ($Revision: 1.120.2.1 $/$Revision: 1.56.2.2 $) debug: qdio_setup: new level 2 debug: qdio_labs: new level 2 debug: qdio_sense: new level 2 debug: qdio_trace: new level 2 qeth: loading qeth S/390 OSA-Express driver ($Revision: 1.260.2.13 $/$Revision: 1.86.2.2 $/$Revision: 1.31 $:IPv6:VLAN) qeth: allocated 0 spare buffers debug: qeth_setup: new level 3 debug: qeth_misc: new level 2 debug: qeth_data: new level 2 debug: qeth_control: new level 2 debug: qeth_sense: new level 2 debug: qeth_qerr: new level 2 debug: qeth_trace: new level 2 qeth: Trying to use card with devnos 0x960/0x961/0x962 qeth: received an IDX TERMINATE on irq 0x11/0x12 with cause code 0x17 qeth: IDX_ACTIVATE on read channel irq 0x11: negative reply qeth: There were problems in hard-setting up the card. -- /etc/chandev.conf contains: noauto;qeth0,0x0960,0x0961,0x0962;addparms,0x10,0x0960,0x0962,portname:LNXLAN02 I have been given these paramaters by the kind people in charge of our z/VM (ie. i know linux, not so much mainframes and z/VM), and if needed I could probably provide more details of the hardware and how things are coupled. -- Best regards/hilsen Jxrgen Birkhaug
Re: HiperSockets and Guest LAN
Hi Dennis Thanks for your reply. Below are details of the different cp commands that you requested: CP QUERY CPLEVEL z/VM Version 4 Release 2.0, service level (64-bit) Generated at 08/29/01 18:40:17 EST IPL at 11/20/02 10:42:05 EST CP QUERY VMLAN VMLAN general activity: PERSISTENT Limit: INFINITE Current: 1 TRANSIENT Limit: INFINITE Current: 1 CP QUERY NIC DETAIL Adapter 0960 Type: QDIO Name: UNASSIGNED Devices: 3 Port 0 MAC: 00-04-AC-00-00-0A LAN: SYSTEM LNXLAN02MFS: 16384 Connection Name: HALLOLE State: Startup Device: 0960 Unit: 000 Role: CTL-READ Unassigned Devices: Device: 0961 Unit: 001 Role: Unassigned Device: 0962 Unit: 002 Role: Unassigned Adapter 0963 Type: HIPER Name: UNASSIGNED Devices: 3 Port 0 MAC: 00-04-AC-00-00-0C LAN: SYSTEM LNXLAN02MFS: 16384 Connection Name: HALLOLE State: Session Established Device: 0964 Unit: 001 Role: CTL-READ Device: 0965 Unit: 002 Role: CTL-WRITE Device: 0963 Unit: 000 Role: DATA CP QUERY LAN LNXLAN02 OWNER SYSTEM DETAIL LAN SYSTEM LNXLAN02Type: QDIO Active: 4 MAXCONN: INFINITE PERSISTENT UNRESTRICTED MFS: 16384 Adapter Owner: RATATOSK NIC: 0960 Name: UNASSIGNED Adapter Owner: TCPIPNIC: 0960 Name: LNXLAN02 AN_IP_ADDRESS Adapter Owner: URD NIC: 0960 Name: UNASSIGNED Adapter Owner: URD NIC: 0963 Name: UNASSIGNED The guest linux that I am currently working with is named URD. -- Best regards, Jxrgen Birkhaug Quoting Dennis Musselwhite [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Hi... I think your chandev.conf file is OK (but I am no expert on driver configuration). The IDX Termination code 0x17 usually means that the data device could not be found, or it belongs to a different adapter. If you can access the primary 3270 virtual console where you logon and IPL your Linux system, there are some CP commands that might provide more insight: (1) What version of CP are you running? Enter: CP QUERY CPLEVEL I would expect to see something like this: z/VM Version 4 Release 2.0, service level (64-bit) Generated at 10/28/02 14:32:45 EST IPL at 10/30/02 12:04:46 EST If you get an error message instead, then you may need to use a different method to enter CP commands. CP is the layer that runs between your Linux system and the real machine. One way to enter a CP command is: Signal PA1 (Programmed Attention 1) from your telnet-3270 client. This should put your session in CP READ status (displayed in the lower right corner of the 3270 session). The command that you enter in CP READ status goes directly to CP. Depending on your virtual machine settings, you may go back to a VM status after each command. If that is the case, you will need to signal PA1 before each command. If you STAY in CP READ after each command, enter CP BEGIN after the last command to get your virtual machine running again. (2) What level of VM Guest LAN service has been installed? Enter: CP QUERY VMLAN (3) How is your adapter defined? Enter: CP QUERY NIC DETAIL (4) How is the LAN defined? Not relevent to this problem, but for future reference, your adapter at 0960 may indicate it is connected to a LAN identified by two tokens. The first is the ownerid, the second is the lanname. If (for example) ownerid = SYSTEM and lanname = LNXLAN02 then you could find out who is currently connected to that LAN with the command: CP QUERY LAN LNXLAN02 OWNER SYSTEM DETAIL (4) Don't forget to enter CP BEGIN if you are still in CP READ status. Please post the results. Regards, Dennis Musselwhite ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) IBM Corporation -- z/VM Development -- CP Network Simulation Jxrgen Birkhaug [EMAIL PROTECTED]@VM.MARIST.EDU on 11/29/2002 08:31:00 AM Please respond to Linux on 390 Port [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent by:Linux on 390 Port [EMAIL PROTECTED] To:[EMAIL PROTECTED] cc: Subject:[LINUX-390] HiperSockets and Guest LAN Hi I'm having problems setting getting my qeth interface to work running on a virgin 2.4.19 kernel patched with the may 2002 stream. I suspect that it might be a problem with chandev and syntax, and I have been screwing around with chandev for some time but to no avail. insmod qeth returns: -- IPv6 v0.8 for NET4.0 IPv6 over IPv4 tunneling driver 802.1Q VLAN Support v1.7 Ben Greear [EMAIL PROTECTED] All bugs added by David S. Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED] qdio: loading QDIO base support version 2 ($Revision: 1.120.2.1 $/$Revision: 1.56.2.2 $) debug: qdio_setup: new level 2 debug: qdio_labs: new level 2 debug: qdio_sense: new level 2 debug: qdio_trace: new level 2 qeth: loading qeth S/390 OSA-Express driver ($Revision: 1.260.2.13 $/$Revision: 1.86.2.2 $/$Revision: 1.31 $:IPv6:VLAN) qeth: allocated 0 spare buffers debug: qeth_setup: new level 3
Re: IBM has no realistic entry-level offering in the mainframe space
On Mon, 2 Dec 2002 04:57:23 -0600, Jay Maynard wrote: On Mon, Dec 02, 2002 at 11:08:22AM +0100, Per Jessen wrote: I am a licensed radio-amateur - haven't been active for a while, but - the costs involved in either buying ready-built equipment or buying the equipment necessary to build your own were not something to be ignored. I bought a 2nd hand HP scope 2 or 3 years ago - not the top of the line, ended up paying EUR2000. And then think of prices for eg. spectrum-analysers or digital signal analysers. They don't come cheap. Putting up a tower-mast for a short-wave arial is not cheap either. Etc. etc. PCB design software like Protel will cost you USD5000 or so - and they don't have a hobbyist license either :-( All of that is true, but you don't need the expensive stuff either to homebrew or get on the air with a commercial radio. I've never spent more than $750 on a radio, or other piece of non-computer electronics. It's possible to get on the air with a US$100 used HW-101. (I'm K5ZC.) And the same goes for writing software - you can get started for free. Well, close. You can have one of my old 486s that I use as a doorstop, and Linux gives you everything else. So, although I *totally* agree with all of the arguments why IBM should make eg. OS390 available on a hobbyist basis (and not at $13K), doing other things on a hobbyist basis are expensive too. With other things, though, it's possible to get in cheap at the low end. There is no corresponding way to get in cheap here. Except - and I know I'm stretching this slightly - if all you want to do is 1) be a radio-amateur, this is entirely within your reach. Almost with out regard to financial means. 2) If all you want to do is write software, this is entirely within your reach. Almost free. 1a) if you want do more than chat, maybe experiment with microwave stuff, or build your own from scratch, there are financial considerations. 2a) if you want to write software for OS390 or maybe a Cray, there are financial considerations. To sum up, I would sign the hobbyist os390 license petition any day, but I guess I just found the money discussion a bit too much. /Per PS: I'm OZ1HZV - and my wife wants to start horse-riding. Now, that's expensive ... regards, Per Jessen, Zurich http://www.enidan.com - home of the J1 serial console. Genius may have its limitations, but stupidity is not thus handicapped.
Re: HiperSockets and Guest LAN
Jxrgen Birkhaug writes: Thanks Malcolm. I checked my chandev.conf and it did contain the underscore. I probably messed up my orginal post. I have now defined a new hipersocket and when trying to initialize it I get: - qeth: Trying to use card with devnos 0x963/0x964/0x965 qeth: received an IDX TERMINATE on irq 0x14/0x15 with cause code 0x08 qeth: IDX_ACTIVATE on read channel irq 0x14: negative reply qeth: There were problems in hard-setting up the card. - At least it is a different cause code. Better make that triple of device numbers start on an even boundary. --Malcolm -- Malcolm Beattie [EMAIL PROTECTED] Linux Technical Consultant IBM EMEA Enterprise Server Group... ...from home, speaking only for myself
Re: HiperSockets and Guest LAN
Hi... It appears that your adapters (NIC) are defined properly and coupled to the LAN that you want. I would suggest, however, that you ask the owner of your CP system to install the following service to z/VM 4.2.0 : CP APAR VM62938 PTF UM30225 which includes HiperSockets enablement We were developing the CP simulation code at the same time the hardware group was developing the HiperSockets millicode. Our final adjustments were too late to make the GA tape. CP APAR VM62958 PTF UM30140 which includes the fix for (probably) this same problem Device indexing was one of the last-minute changes and the device index passed to the driver via the CCW interface was incorrect in most cases. When this service has been applied, you should be able to issue CP QUERY VMLAN and see VM62938 listed as the latest service. Also, Malcolm is correct in pointing out that addparms should be add_parms (I should remember this by now). That could also cause an initialization failure. Regards, Dennis Musselwhite ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) IBM Corporation -- z/VM Development -- CP Network Simulation
Re: HiperSockets and Guest LAN
Why? -- Hilsen/regards Jxrgen Birkhaug Quoting Malcolm Beattie [EMAIL PROTECTED]: s Better make that triple of device numbers start on an even boundary. --Malcolm s
Re: HiperSockets and Guest LAN
Jxrgen Birkhaug writes: Quoting Malcolm Beattie [EMAIL PROTECTED]: s Better make that triple of device numbers start on an even boundary. --Malcolm s Why? I'm sure I've seen somewhere that it's a requirement but I can't remember exactly which part of the system requires it and the only reference I can find at the moment is one which only mentions the requirement for OSE and not OSD (i.e. for non-QDIO). However, something does look a bit odd about your new try: Adapter 0963 Type: HIPER Name: UNASSIGNED Devices: 3 Port 0 MAC: 00-04-AC-00-00-0C LAN: SYSTEM LNXLAN02MFS: 16384 Connection Name: HALLOLE State: Session Established Device: 0964 Unit: 001 Role: CTL-READ Device: 0965 Unit: 002 Role: CTL-WRITE Device: 0963 Unit: 000 Role: DATA Notice that VM shows that the triple of device numbers 963,964,965 have been switched around to the order 964,965,963 in order for the first even number to become the CTL-READ device. The error message from your Linux guest was qeth: Trying to use card with devnos 0x963/0x964/0x965 qeth: received an IDX TERMINATE on irq 0x14/0x15 with cause code 0x08 qeth: IDX_ACTIVATE on read channel irq 0x14: negative reply qeth: There were problems in hard-setting up the card. and it may be worth checking whether Linux has decided to switch around the device numbers in the same way, perhaps by checking in /proc/subchannels or /proc/chandev whether subchannel 0x14 really is the control read device. On the other hand, it may be simpler just to enforce the even boundary constraint, if only to avoid having those permuted device numbers appearing. I guess that there may even be other differences since this time you're using a hipersockets device instead of a qdio one and it'll have a different portname and so on (which is case sensitive and so may be worth checking too: even if your OS/390 people see/quote it in upper case it's possible that the underlying portname could be lower case). Setting up QDIO/Hipersockets connections have quite a few little subtle requirements and getting any of them wrong can lead to the sort of errors you're seeing. It's a bit of nuisance but usually it's just a question of checking every little thing one more time to find the one that you're running into. --Malcolm -- Malcolm Beattie [EMAIL PROTECTED] Linux Technical Consultant IBM EMEA Enterprise Server Group... ...from home, speaking only for myself
Re: IBM has no realistic entry-level offering in the mainframe space
Right, DEC-COMPAC-HP, cannot even GIVE the VMS platform and software away today I did DEC for 5+ years, and hated it .. Compared to IBM DEC is a PC on drugs.. ken On Monday 02 December 2002 07:17 pm, you wrote: On Mon, 2 Dec 2002 13:29, you wrote: For me, too. Personally I think we should persuade IBM to actually assist the hobby computer market, by providing releases of, say, VM, that have been removed from the normal sales channels. It would be provided on a, pay for the distribution media, but don't bother us for service, and support. But I might be leaving myself open to a complaint from Jim Elliot for shooting my mouth, or writing talents off, without thinking here, so don't quote me in context. I would be delighted to have access to the latest unsupported software. MVS 3.8 is a bit old for me to find attactive. I can run it, but so what? MVS 3.8 skills probably aren't very useful now, and the available compilers were obsolete when I used MVS 3.8 in a former life. If I use the PL/1 F compiler I suspect the code won't even compile with current PL/1 compilers - I recall an incompatibilty between PL/1-F and the optimising compiler back then. Grant access to early OS/390 (I'm guessing there are some now not supported), compilers for Pl/1 and COBOL, CICS and DB2 (plus fixes all round) in similar terms that apply to the download versions of DB2. Worried about piracy? One or more mods to ensure it will _only_ run on Hercules - I'm sure Jay would implement an appropriate diagnose or some such, or even just insist the model be 3168. Maybe, a self-help forum at news.software.ibm.com where IBM folk could help out a bit and get feedback. Well, the DEC-now-Compaq-now-Hewlett Packard OpenVMS hobbyist outfit certainly isn't making them lose their hair, and it's making them friends. They even release the source code on CD. All that is needed is a commitment to supporting the hobbyists with Out-of-Print documentation and some End-of-Support OSes, with perhaps a free hobbyist membership in something like SHARE a la the free membership in DECUS, minus the Commercial support side of things, and I have no doubt IBM will find itself with more up-and-coming MF sys-admins etc than they thought could exist. Certainly more than Harry Singh considered possible in his Unix for MVS Programmers book. Just my $0.02. Wesley Parish -- Mau e ki, He aha te mea nui? You ask, What is the most important thing? Maku e ki, He tangata, he tangata, he tangata. I reply, It is people, it is people, it is people.
Re: HiperSockets and Guest LAN
Hi, Notice that VM shows that the triple of device numbers 963,964,965 have been switched around to the order 964,965,963 in order for the first even number to become the CTL-READ device. The error message from your Linux guest was qeth: Trying to use card with devnos 0x963/0x964/0x965 qeth: received an IDX TERMINATE on irq 0x14/0x15 with cause code 0x08 qeth: IDX_ACTIVATE on read channel irq 0x14: negative reply qeth: There were problems in hard-setting up the card. and it may be worth checking whether Linux has decided to switch around the device numbers in the same way, perhaps by checking in /proc/subchannels or /proc/chandev whether subchannel 0x14 really is the control read device. On the other hand, it may be simpler just to enforce the even boundary constraint, if only to avoid having those permuted device numbers appearing. qeth tries to re-order the devices presented by chandev so that they match the odd-even restriction (just juggling the devices around until we have something reasonable). Maybe we should adapt the messages... Btw.: Which oco-Level is this? (dmesg | grep Revis) We don't do the reordering for HiperSockets in recent levels since they seem to be fine for odd addresses. I guess that there may even be other differences since this time you're using a hipersockets device instead of a qdio one and it'll have a different portname and so on (which is case sensitive and so may be worth checking too: even if your OS/390 people see/quote it in upper case it's possible that the underlying portname could be lower case). Afaik HiperSockets don't require a portname (not sure about GuestLan, though) - but it shouldn't hurt to specify one. Portnames are always upper case. Mit freundlichen Grüßen/Regards Cornelia Huck Linux for zSeries Development IBM Deutschland Entwicklung GmbH Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Phone: ext. +49(0)7031/16-4837, int. *120-4837
Re: HiperSockets and Guest LAN
Malcolm Ok - I've ditched the uneven device and reverted back to an even boundary. z/VM now sees the following *after* trying to initialize the qeth module: Q NIC DETAILS Adapter 0960 Type: HIPER Name: UNASSIGNED Devices: 3 Port 0 MAC: 00-04-AC-00-00-0E LAN: SYSTEM LNXLAN02 MFS: 16384 Connection Name: HALLOLE State: Startup Device: 0960 Unit: 000 Role: CTL-READ Unassigned Devices: Device: 0961 Unit: 001 Role: Unassigned Device: 0962 Unit: 002 Role: Unassigned The dev numbers do match with the contents of /proc/subchannels. I'm slightly perplexed as to why the nic is in State: Startup and why 0961 and 0962 are Unassigned. Linux, on the other hand, reports: qeth: Trying to use card with devnos 0x960/0x961/0x962 qeth: received an IDX TERMINATE on irq 0x11/0x12 with cause code 0x17 qeth: IDX_ACTIVATE on read channel irq 0x11: negative reply qeth: There were problems in hard-setting up the card. Back to scratch. -- Hilsen/regards Jxrgen Birkhaug Quoting Malcolm Beattie [EMAIL PROTECTED]: ... On the other hand, it may be simpler just to enforce the even boundary constraint, if only to avoid having those permuted device numbers appearing. ...
Re: HiperSockets and Guest LAN
Hi Cornelia qdio: loading QDIO base support version 2 ($Revision: 1.120.2.1 $/$Revision: 1.56.2.2 $) qeth: loading qeth S/390 OSA-Express driver ($Revision: 1.260.2.13 $/$Revision: 1.86.2.2 $/$Revision: 1.31 $:IPv6:VLAN) From the May 2002 stream. Please note that we are no longer running with odd addresses. See my reply to Malcolm for more details. -- Hilsen/regards Jxrgen Birkhaug Quoting Cornelia Huck [EMAIL PROTECTED]: ... Btw.: Which oco-Level is this? (dmesg | grep Revis) We don't do the reordering for HiperSockets in recent levels since they seem to be fine for odd addresses. ...
Re: HiperSockets and Guest LAN
Jxrgen Birkhaug writes: Ok - I've ditched the uneven device and reverted back to an even boundary. z/VM now sees the following *after* trying to initialize the qeth module: Q NIC DETAILS Adapter 0960 Type: HIPER Name: UNASSIGNED Devices: 3 Port 0 MAC: 00-04-AC-00-00-0E LAN: SYSTEM LNXLAN02 MFS: 16384 Connection Name: HALLOLE State: Startup Device: 0960 Unit: 000 Role: CTL-READ Unassigned Devices: Device: 0961 Unit: 001 Role: Unassigned Device: 0962 Unit: 002 Role: Unassigned The dev numbers do match with the contents of /proc/subchannels. I'm slightly perplexed as to why the nic is in State: Startup and why 0961 and 0962 are Unassigned. Linux, on the other hand, reports: qeth: Trying to use card with devnos 0x960/0x961/0x962 qeth: received an IDX TERMINATE on irq 0x11/0x12 with cause code 0x17 qeth: IDX_ACTIVATE on read channel irq 0x11: negative reply qeth: There were problems in hard-setting up the card. Back to scratch. OK, let's keep going at it. What's the output of # cat /proc/chandev on the Linux side (1) when you've freshly rebooted it, (2) after you've caused the chandev settings to take effect (whether you use SuSE's rcchandev, echo a read_conf to /proc/chandev or whatever) and also (3) after you do the modprobe qeth? --Malcolm -- Malcolm Beattie [EMAIL PROTECTED] Linux Technical Consultant IBM EMEA Enterprise Server Group... ...from home, speaking only for myself
Re: IBM has no realistic entry-level offering in the mainframe space.
True. OTOH, you can take that $1000 Intel box and run Hercules on it and get reasonable power. The gotcha is that IBM hasn't seen fit to allow the same low-cost access to its mainframe software. (No, Peter and Phil, $20K is not low-cost.) But it _is_ low-cost - the PWD software is free. IBM has chosen to support the low end via a channel strategy using business partners - whatever you might be able to achieve in other ways, that is a major strategy decision that is not going to go away. This is the main reason why a new IBM system is one of the PWD TsCs. Yup. This is why I've been arguing for a hobbyst/personal-use license for the past 2 years. Since the only tangible step during that time has been a backwards one (the deletion of the Redbook chapter) perhaps an alternative strategy should be developed? You cannot possibly hope for success unless you take the time to _UNDERSTAND_ where IBM is coming from, what is possible, and what is simply impossible. I haven't seen any effort devoted to that. Mass skill availability is one major reason why IBM is pursuing its Linux strategy - Irving goes on and on (and on) about hundreds of thousands of young graduates leaving college and bringing their Linux skills out to the market. There may be a need for bringing new skills into the zSeries arena, but I very much doubt that a hobbyist system would address that requirement at all - the demographics are completely wrong. You cannot produce a meaningful contribution to the skills pool just by handing out z/OS - the world isn't short of sysprogs, but of application creators, who need middleware and application generators to do their stuff. That means talking to Software Division as well - which is where life gets amusing. -- Phil Payne http://www.isham-research.com +44 7785 302 803 +49 173 6242039
HELP! Configuring OSA-E adapters in QDIO mode
All, Trying without much success in getting past the initial install of SuSe Linux 7.0. Successfully did a LOAD from CD on the HMC into an LPAR. Going through the network configuration, it sees my OSA-express adapters, and I tell it to auto config them, but it comes back with error: No such device, and the network definition fails. Any ideas? These are new OSA adapters, they may have never been configured. Dave __ Dave Jousma Lead Systems Administrator - Information Technology Spartan Stores, Inc. PO Box 8700 Grand Rapids, MI 49518 (616) 878-2883 Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: HELP! Configuring OSA-E adapters in QDIO mode
Dave, It may well be that these new adapters are at the microcode level that requires a portname to be specified. Just what parameters are you passing to the install scripts? Mark Post -Original Message- From: Dave Jousma [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Monday, December 02, 2002 12:09 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: HELP! Configuring OSA-E adapters in QDIO mode All, Trying without much success in getting past the initial install of SuSe Linux 7.0. Successfully did a LOAD from CD on the HMC into an LPAR. Going through the network configuration, it sees my OSA-express adapters, and I tell it to auto config them, but it comes back with error: No such device, and the network definition fails. Any ideas? These are new OSA adapters, they may have never been configured. Dave __ Dave Jousma Lead Systems Administrator - Information Technology Spartan Stores, Inc. PO Box 8700 Grand Rapids, MI 49518 (616) 878-2883 Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: HiperSockets and Guest LAN
Hi... The even/odd starting address may cause you some problems depending on the combination of CP HiperSockets and device driver support. It is safer to stick with an even-numbered starting address when you define the NIC. With the latest CP and the latest device drivers this should work either way, but why tempt fate? Cornelia is correct in pointing out that the portname does not matter here. HiperSockets does not require a portname, and if your configured portname does not match that of other interfaces using the same network, that is OK. If you were using dedicated OSA-Express devices with this interface, you would have to specify the portname and it would have to match the portname configured by the other users of that OSA port. Most users of Guest LAN are not affected by this because each DEFINE NIC creates an adapter in your virtual machine, so portnames only have to match within the devices that are part of that adapter range. Most users create the default adapter (three devices) and there is no risk of portname conflict. If you defined a TYPE QDIO NIC with six or more devices, all interfaces using that NIC would have to agree on a portname. That is NOT a problem on z/VM 4.2.0 because the OSA-Express simulation is not available at that level. You were concerned about the partial results in Q NIC DETAILS: Q NIC DETAILS Adapter 0960 Type: HIPER Name: UNASSIGNED Devices: 3 Port 0 MAC: 00-04-AC-00-00-0E LAN: SYSTEM LNXLAN02 MFS: 16384 Connection Name: HALLOLE State: Startup Device: 0960 Unit: 000 Role: CTL-READ Unassigned Devices: Device: 0961 Unit: 001 Role: Unassigned Device: 0962 Unit: 002 Role: Unassigned The dev numbers do match with the contents of /proc/subchannels. I'm slightly perplexed as to why the nic is in State: Startup and why 0961 and 0962 are Unassigned. That just means the driver started by initializing 0x960 as the Control-Read device, and encountered the IDX failure that you reported. We were still in Startup state and no attempt was made to initialize 0x961 or 0x962 so they are still reported as Unassigned devices. I believe your CP system has been installed with only the z/VM 4.2.0 base tapes, and no service. After the suggested APARs (VM62958 or VM62938) are applied your current configuration should work properly. Regards, Dennis Musselwhite ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) IBM Corporation -- z/VM Development -- CP Network Simulation
DB2 8.1 TSM
Hi. Does DB2 8.1 provide functions to backup databases throw TSM client? And does it have Command Center? Btw, can someone give me the url for downloading db2 8.1? I found only for x86 Linux ( DB2 Enterprise Sever Edition for Linux (32 Bit): DB2_V81_ESE_LNX_32_NLV.tar 508MB)? WBR, Sergey
Re: IBM has no realistic entry-level offering in the mainframe space
I am also a radio-amateur. The most expensive thing I have ever purchased was a new HF/VHF/UHF radio for $1400. For antennas I use trees for supports etc. Amateur radio is like boating. You can spend as much as you like, but I would not be an amateur radio operator either if I had to spend $13,000. I don't see how anyone could write GNU software for VSE or VM at that price. Rod KA3BHY On Mon, 2 Dec 2002 12:53:50 +0800, John Summerfield wrote: On Mon, 2 Dec 2002 12:42, you wrote: $13K entry point (not 20K) for their own system with software loan amounts to an impediment that forecloses their effort. I am aware of one-man shops taking IBM up on the offering, so Mr. Szumovski's post to the contrary is factually incorrect. Some may find $US13 000 affordable. For me, it's sometthing to dream about. I certainly don't find $13K all that affordable either. But I can't help thinking - I am a licensed radio-amateur - haven't been active for a while, but - the costs involved in either buying ready-built equipment or buying the equipment necessary to build your own were not something to be ignored. I bought a 2nd hand HP scope 2 or 3 years ago - not the top of the line, ended up paying EUR2000. And then think of prices for eg. spectrum-analysers or digital signal analysers. They don't come cheap. Putting up a tower-mast for a short-wave arial is not cheap either. Etc. etc. PCB design software like Protel will cost you USD5000 or so - and they don't have a hobbyist license either :-( So, although I *totally* agree with all of the arguments why IBM should make eg. OS390 available on a hobbyist basis (and not at $13K), doing other things on a hobbyist basis are expensive too. regards, Per Jessen, Zurich http://www.enidan.com - home of the J1 serial console. Genius may have its limitations, but stupidity is not thus handicapped. -- Rod Clayton KA3BHY Systems Programmer Howard County Public Schools [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: IBM has no realistic entry-level offering in the mainframe space
On Mon, 2 Dec 2002, Ken Dreger wrote: Right, DEC-COMPAC-HP, cannot even GIVE the VMS platform and software away today I did DEC for 5+ years, and hated it .. Compared to IBM DEC is a PC on drugs.. ken Whatever your opionion, a lot of folk used it. I checked the openvms website and it looks to me there's a lot of excited folk involved with it now. Cheers John. Join the Linux Support by Small Businesses list at http://mail.computerdatasafe.com.au/mailman/listinfo/lssb
Re: IBM has no realistic entry-level offering in the mainframe space
I'm sorry, but comparing an operating system as durable, scalable and reliable as MVS to an antenna stapled to a tree - yeesh! When you buy a mainframe system, you buy security. The software and its relationship with the hardware is what provides this security. Are you seriously suggesting that an off-the-shelf Intel box is comparable, on any level? As far as writing GNU software for anything, write it for Linux in such as way as to make it portable. The rest takes care of itself. -Original Message- From: Linux on 390 Port [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Rod Clayton Sent: Monday, December 02, 2002 12:24 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: IBM has no realistic entry-level offering in the mainframe space I am also a radio-amateur. The most expensive thing I have ever purchased was a new HF/VHF/UHF radio for $1400. For antennas I use trees for supports etc. Amateur radio is like boating. You can spend as much as you like, but I would not be an amateur radio operator either if I had to spend $13,000. I don't see how anyone could write GNU software for VSE or VM at that price. Rod KA3BHY On Mon, 2 Dec 2002 12:53:50 +0800, John Summerfield wrote: On Mon, 2 Dec 2002 12:42, you wrote: $13K entry point (not 20K) for their own system with software loan amounts to an impediment that forecloses their effort. I am aware of one-man shops taking IBM up on the offering, so Mr. Szumovski's post to the contrary is factually incorrect. Some may find $US13 000 affordable. For me, it's sometthing to dream about. I certainly don't find $13K all that affordable either. But I can't help thinking - I am a licensed radio-amateur - haven't been active for a while, but - the costs involved in either buying ready-built equipment or buying the equipment necessary to build your own were not something to be ignored. I bought a 2nd hand HP scope 2 or 3 years ago - not the top of the line, ended up paying EUR2000. And then think of prices for eg. spectrum-analysers or digital signal analysers. They don't come cheap. Putting up a tower-mast for a short-wave arial is not cheap either. Etc. etc. PCB design software like Protel will cost you USD5000 or so - and they don't have a hobbyist license either :-( So, although I *totally* agree with all of the arguments why IBM should make eg. OS390 available on a hobbyist basis (and not at $13K), doing other things on a hobbyist basis are expensive too. regards, Per Jessen, Zurich http://www.enidan.com - home of the J1 serial console. Genius may have its limitations, but stupidity is not thus handicapped. -- Rod Clayton KA3BHY Systems Programmer Howard County Public Schools [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: OT: FlexEs, Hercules, others
On Fri, Nov 29, 2002 at 03:10:23PM -0500, Peter D. Ward wrote: What you paint is a false dilemma. One merely needs to correspond with those whose posts on Hercules indicate z/VM use, from which one can determine that the vast majority trade illegitimately for their own pecuniary purposes. I'm not sure I believe all of this statement. I will grant that the majority (I'm not sure how you define vast) of people running z/VM on Hercules are not doing so legally; other than the IBM folks who are entitled to use it, and myself (running on Linux/390), I'm unaware of anyone else running z/VM legally. Still, I don't think that the total z/VM user pool on Hercules is very large at all, and if there are a few other people like me (or IBMmers running z/VM legally because they're IBMmers), then vast may be a misnomer. However, I don't think that the majority of these people are doing so for their own pecuniary purposes. I will grant that some are. I'm curious as to how broadly you define pecuniary purposes. I seriously doubt that a majority--let alone a vast majority--of the people running z/VM on Hercules are doing so for direct financial benefit by providing VM services on the platform. I think that number is very small. I think the number of people actively developing commercial VM apps on Hercules running z/VM is very small too. These are the uses I would consider pecuniary purposes. I do not, of course, have any data to back up my suppositions, and anyone who would admit in public to either of these two things in the absence of a z/VM license for Hercules (and thus give us that data), is an idiot. I suspect that most people running z/VM are doing it simply because they can. This, by the way, is the reason I run an Atari 2600 emulator on Linux/390--I have a perfectly good (OK, OK, mostly good--one of the pins on the left controller connector is flaky) Atari 2600 here, and I can run Stella just fine on Linux/x86 too. Same with Bochs and Basilisk II; I also have much better ways to run NT or a Mac, but it's fun to see if it'll fly. Fact is, it's also the reason I'm running z/VM on Hercules under Linux/390; I have no pressing problem that's being solved by making my VM system run 100 times slower. However, it strikes me that you may consider putting a z/VM system down on Hercules in order to learn how to operate z/VM, and then, having done that, selling your services as a z/VM systems programmer, to be pecuniary purposes. If so, then the number probably does go up quite a bit. I don't view this as pecuniary purposes, myself, any more than I did learning Linux by playing with a Linux box and then being able to eventually sell my Linux skills. Do you include self-education in pecuniary purposes? Adam
Re: IBM has no realistic entry-level offering in the mainframe sp ace
Whatever your opionion, a lot of folk used it. No past tense involved -- VMS is alive and fairly well. There are still a lot of high-profile customers: Ikea, a number of banks and telcos, etc. They tend to move to iSeries or HP/UX if at all.
Re: HiperSockets and Guest LAN
Malcolm - I'm currently offline from the linux site, but I will post the information tomorrow morning. Also, Dennis' last post does suggest that I am missing some software at the z/VM level. BTW: the linux guests are set up with RedHat 7.2 with a virgin 2.4.19 kernel from kernel.org patched with the May 2002 stream; not SuSe. -- Jxrgen Quoting Malcolm Beattie [EMAIL PROTECTED]: OK, let's keep going at it. What's the output of # cat /proc/chandev on the Linux side (1) when you've freshly rebooted it, (2) after you've caused the chandev settings to take effect (whether you use SuSE's rcchandev, echo a read_conf to /proc/chandev or whatever) and also (3) after you do the modprobe qeth? --Malcolm ...
Re: OT: FlexEs, Hercules, others
On Mon, 2 Dec 2002, Adam Thornton wrote: On Fri, Nov 29, 2002 at 03:10:23PM -0500, Peter D. Ward wrote: What you paint is a false dilemma. One merely needs to correspond with those whose posts on Hercules indicate z/VM use, from which one can determine that the vast majority trade illegitimately for their own pecuniary purposes. I'm not sure I believe all of this statement. I will grant that the majority (I'm not sure how you define vast) of people running z/VM on Hercules are not doing so legally; other than the IBM folks who are entitled to use it, and myself (running on Linux/390), I'm unaware of anyone else running z/VM legally. Still, I don't think that the total z/VM user pool on Hercules is very large at all, and if there are a few other people like me (or IBMmers running z/VM legally because they're IBMmers), then vast may be a misnomer. I'm not sure I agree that the majority of people running z/VM on Hercules are not doing so legally. The peer pressure against doing so is fairly strong, and there are IBM folk there and one would assume some of those will be protective of their employers' interests. How you'd spot someone illicitly running IBM software a I don't know. I assume those writing from ibm.com addresses have the necessary approvals, but then it's not unknown for IBM people to have external email addresses. Even a check with names folk use against whois.ibm.com wouldn't produce much - I don't reveal my name on all the lists I'm on, and not for any particular reason - it's just that as an antispam measure I have an assortment of email addresses and I've not bothered to associate my name with them all. However, it strikes me that you may consider putting a z/VM system down on Hercules in order to learn how to operate z/VM, and then, having done that, selling your services as a z/VM systems programmer, to be pecuniary purposes. If so, then the number probably does go up quite a bit. I don't view this as pecuniary purposes, myself, any more than I did learning Linux by playing with a Linux box and then being able to eventually sell my Linux skills. Do you include self-education in pecuniary purposes? I think this is something IBM should encourage. To me sure, taking action against someone doing this would be akin to IBM mugging itself. For that matter, if I were to get a copy of OS/390 and some development tools, install it all on my Athlon 1.4 and start coding, and IBM discovered it and took action against me, who would benefit? IBM's customers wouldn't benefit from any software I might develop. I'd not become a success and want to buy an IBM box to provide myself with a better test environment with all the benefits of having the real hardware instead of a pale immitation. If I were using unauthorised copies of the software, it would probably because the cost of acquiring licences was too great and the difficulty of getting no-charge licences too great. I'm not one who sees Hercules as a viable platform for keeping my business data, but for developing software my Athlon would do a fine job. -- Cheers John. Join the Linux Support by Small Businesses list at http://mail.computerdatasafe.com.au/mailman/listinfo/lssb
3172 lcs problem
Hallo list, I don't know what a partially successful startup with rc= -4 means. The 3172 runs fine with a VSE TCPIP stack ... I checked the archive and am running out of ideas now. Any help is greatly appreciated. Starting lcs module $Revision: 1.120.2.6 $ $Date: 2002/03/01 16:51:06 $ with chandev support,with multicast support, with ethernet support, with token ring support. debug: lcs: new level 0 lcs_sleepon network card taking time responding irq=000b devno=0f42, please be patient, ctrl-c will exit if shell prompt is available. qipassist failed, ipassists assumed unsupported for tr0 lcs: tr0 configured as follows read subchannel=b write subchannel=c read_devno=0f42 write_devno=0f43 hw_address=08:00:5A:0C:E0:21 rel_adapter_no=1 lcs_sleepon network card taking time responding irq=000b devno=0f42, please be patient, ctrl-c will exit if shell prompt is available. A partially successful startup read_devno=0f42 write_devno= f43 was detected rc=-4 please check your configuration parameters,cables connection to the network. SIOCSIFFLAGS: No such device /etc/chandev.conf noauto;lcs0,0x0f42,0x0f43,0,1 /etc/modules.conf alias tr0 lcs /etc/rc.config NETDEV_2=tr0 IFCONFIG_2=90.0.1.51 broadcast 90.255.255.255 netmask 255.0.0.0 mtu 2000 up /proc/chandev: Forced devices chan defif read write data memory port ip type num devno devno devno usage(k) protocol no. chksum 0x040 0x0f42 0x0f43 0x default 1 00 0x100 0x0500 0x0501 0x0502 default 0 00 Registered probe functions probefunc shutdownfunc msck_notfunc chan devices devices type found active === 0x20a170c4 0x20a1745c 0x20a174d4 0x04 1 1 0x209d078c 0x209d3fe4 0x209d04e0 0x10 1 1 Initialised Devices read write data read write data chan port dev devmemory irq irqirq devno devno devno type no. ptr name usage(k) == 0x0008 0x0009 0x000a 0x0500 0x0501 0x0502 0x10 0 0x1ffdf200 hsi02048 0x000b 0x000c n/a 0x0f42 0x0f43 n/a 0x04 1 0x1ffdf000 tr0 320 Total device memory usage 2368k. channels detected chancucu devdev in chandev irq devno type type model type model pim chpids use reg. === 0x0008 0x0500 0x10 0x1731 0x05 0x1732 0x05 0x80 0x0100 yes yes 0x0009 0x0501 0x10 0x1731 0x05 0x1732 0x05 0x80 0x0100 yes yes 0x000a 0x0502 0x10 0x1731 0x05 0x1732 0x05 0x80 0x0100 yes yes 0x000b 0x0f42 0x04 0x3088 0x01 0x 0x00 0x80 0x10ff yes yes 0x000c 0x0f43 0x04 0x3088 0x01 0x 0x00 0x80 0x10ff yes yes Dietmar Rueger NMC Informationssysteme GmbH mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
lsb spec
Are there any teams building the LSB spec for s/390? Currently they only seem to cover IA32, PPC32 and IA64 Phil
Re: lsb spec
We're working on the informal testing regime scripts, and will be submitting some of the work shortly. -- db David Boyes Sine Nomine Associates -Original Message- From: Linux on 390 Port [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Phil Tully Sent: Monday, December 02, 2002 2:19 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: lsb spec Are there any teams building the LSB spec for s/390? Currently they only seem to cover IA32, PPC32 and IA64 Phil
Re: HELP! Configuring OSA-E adapters in QDIO mode
Hi Dave, Has the IOCDS been updated for these new OSA adapters. I did install 7.0 followed by 7.2 on an z800 in September and had no problem with the OSA card. Good luck. Jean-Pierre Baril Specialiste en technologies de l'information/IT Specialist Novipro Inc / 2055, rue Peel, bureau 701 Montreal (Quebec) H3A 1V4 Tel: (514) 744-5353 #244, Cel: (514) 891-6848, Fax: (514) 744-3908 [EMAIL PROTECTED] / www.novipro.com Dave Jousma [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent by: Linux on 390 Port [EMAIL PROTECTED] 2002-12-02 12:09 Please respond to Linux on 390 Port To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] cc: Subject:HELP! Configuring OSA-E adapters in QDIO mode All, Trying without much success in getting past the initial install of SuSe Linux 7.0. Successfully did a LOAD from CD on the HMC into an LPAR. Going through the network configuration, it sees my OSA-express adapters, and I tell it to auto config them, but it comes back with error: No such device, and the network definition fails. Any ideas? These are new OSA adapters, they may have never been configured. Dave __ Dave Jousma Lead Systems Administrator - Information Technology Spartan Stores, Inc. PO Box 8700 Grand Rapids, MI 49518 (616) 878-2883 Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: IBM has no realistic entry-level offering in the mainframe space
On Mon, 2 Dec 2002 13:23:42 -0500, Rod Clayton wrote: I am also a radio-amateur. The most expensive thing I have ever purchased was a new HF/VHF/UHF radio for $1400. For antennas I use trees for supports etc. Amateur radio is like boating. You can spend as much as you like, but I would not be an amateur radio operator either if I had to spend $13,000. I don't see how anyone could write GNU software for VSE or VM at that price. But, (I sound like I'm repeating myself) - then don't write for VM or VSE - those are the radio-amateur-world equivalents of EME, OSCARs and microwave experiments. Write software for Linux for instance, and it's virtually free. Re. boating - um, around here boating could be fairly expensive too. Perhaps unless we're talking a rowboat and two oars ? I often go sailing with friends in the Aegean - not my boat, I just rent my space. But it is pretty damn expensive if you want to captain a yacht. In time and money. btw, glad to meet another one - I'm OZ1HZV. /Per regards, Per Jessen, Zurich http://www.enidan.com - home of the J1 serial console. Genius may have its limitations, but stupidity is not thus handicapped.
Re: IBM has no realistic entry-level offering in the mainframe space
On Mon, 2 Dec 2002 12:52:35 -0600, Steve Guthrie wrote: I'm sorry, but comparing an operating system as durable, scalable and reliable as MVS to an antenna stapled to a tree - yeesh! When you buy a mainframe system, you buy security. The software and its relationship with the hardware is what provides this security. Are you seriously suggesting that an off-the-shelf Intel box is comparable, on any level? I don't think he was. Honestly. But, you buy the mainframe box, and you get IBM reliability. Buy my software and you get my reliability. They're not implicitly connected :-) As far as writing GNU software for anything, write it for Linux in such as way as to make it portable. The rest takes care of itself. Applause! Applause! /Per regards, Per Jessen, Zurich http://www.enidan.com - home of the J1 serial console. Genius may have its limitations, but stupidity is not thus handicapped.
Re: IBM has no realistic entry-level offering in the mainframe space
On Tue, 3 Dec 2002 02:27:47 +0800, John Summerfield wrote: On Mon, 2 Dec 2002, Ken Dreger wrote: Right, DEC-COMPAC-HP, cannot even GIVE the VMS platform and software away today I did DEC for 5+ years, and hated it .. Compared to IBM DEC is a PC on drugs.. Whatever your opionion, a lot of folk used it. I checked the openvms website and it looks to me there's a lot of excited folk involved with it now. Quite possibly - however getting current software (my example is BEA Weblogic Server) certified for it is a major undertaking/hassle. Because of a deteriorating number of users. However, BEA is certifying for use on eg. Linux AND Linux/390. /Per (not a BEA employee any more) regards, Per Jessen, Zurich http://www.enidan.com - home of the J1 serial console. Genius may have its limitations, but stupidity is not thus handicapped.
Re: OT: FlexEs, Hercules, others
Hello from Gregg C Levine For what its worth, to me, I agree with both Adam, having met him, and Jay Maynard, have used the software he has managed, and with John Summerfield. Especially since for my needs, and current amount of business monies, something from PWD, is out of the question. Now. Maybe later, but not now. Now if one of you, would ask me which versions of which software items I'm interested, and off list, I'd be delighted to answer. I can tell you, that the items in question are in the VM sphere of influence however. --- Gregg C Levine [EMAIL PROTECTED] The Force will be with you...Always. Obi-Wan Kenobi Use the Force, Luke. Obi-Wan Kenobi (This company dedicates this E-Mail to General Obi-Wan Kenobi ) (This company dedicates this E-Mail to Master Yoda ) -Original Message- From: Linux on 390 Port [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of Adam Thornton Sent: Monday, December 02, 2002 2:51 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [LINUX-390] OT: FlexEs, Hercules, others On Fri, Nov 29, 2002 at 03:10:23PM -0500, Peter D. Ward wrote: What you paint is a false dilemma. One merely needs to correspond with those whose posts on Hercules indicate z/VM use, from which one can determine that the vast majority trade illegitimately for their own pecuniary purposes. I'm not sure I believe all of this statement. I will grant that the majority (I'm not sure how you define vast) of people running z/VM on Hercules are not doing so legally; other than the IBM folks who are entitled to use it, and myself (running on Linux/390), I'm unaware of anyone else running z/VM legally. Still, I don't think that the total z/VM user pool on Hercules is very large at all, and if there are a few other people like me (or IBMmers running z/VM legally because they're IBMmers), then vast may be a misnomer. However, I don't think that the majority of these people are doing so for their own pecuniary purposes. I will grant that some are. I'm curious as to how broadly you define pecuniary purposes. I seriously doubt that a majority--let alone a vast majority--of the people running z/VM on Hercules are doing so for direct financial benefit by providing VM services on the platform. I think that number is very small. I think the number of people actively developing commercial VM apps on Hercules running z/VM is very small too. These are the uses I would consider pecuniary purposes. I do not, of course, have any data to back up my suppositions, and anyone who would admit in public to either of these two things in the absence of a z/VM license for Hercules (and thus give us that data), is an idiot. I suspect that most people running z/VM are doing it simply because they can. This, by the way, is the reason I run an Atari 2600 emulator on Linux/390--I have a perfectly good (OK, OK, mostly good--one of the pins on the left controller connector is flaky) Atari 2600 here, and I can run Stella just fine on Linux/x86 too. Same with Bochs and Basilisk II; I also have much better ways to run NT or a Mac, but it's fun to see if it'll fly. Fact is, it's also the reason I'm running z/VM on Hercules under Linux/390; I have no pressing problem that's being solved by making my VM system run 100 times slower. However, it strikes me that you may consider putting a z/VM system down on Hercules in order to learn how to operate z/VM, and then, having done that, selling your services as a z/VM systems programmer, to be pecuniary purposes. If so, then the number probably does go up quite a bit. I don't view this as pecuniary purposes, myself, any more than I did learning Linux by playing with a Linux box and then being able to eventually sell my Linux skills. Do you include self-education in pecuniary purposes? Adam
Re: IBM has no realistic entry-level offering in the mainframe space
On Mon, 2002-12-02 at 18:27, John Summerfield wrote: Whatever your opionion, a lot of folk used it. I checked the openvms website and it looks to me there's a lot of excited folk involved with it now. Tons of critical stuff runs on OpenVMS, mostly because it has bulletproof clustering that goes beyond what you can ever achieve on a single box however fault tolerant. I've worked at a telco that used OpenVMS for telco billing. There is now way current offerings from most other companies, unix nt or otherwise would meet their service level. Telco billing must not stop even if an entire site is anihilated, nobody must be billed twice and no record lost.
Re: OT: FlexEs, Hercules, others
On Tue, 3 Dec 2002 03:14:50 +0800, John Summerfield wrote: How you'd spot someone illicitly running IBM software a I don't know. I assume those writing from ibm.com addresses have the necessary approvals, Bad assumption - I used an ibm.net address ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) from about 1992 to 1996 with absolutely no kind of IBM software license involved. Just FYI. /Per PS: ok, so it isn't an ibm.com address, but close enough :-) regards, Per Jessen, Zurich http://www.enidan.com - home of the J1 serial console. Genius may have its limitations, but stupidity is not thus handicapped.
Re: IBM has no realistic entry-level offering in the mainframe space
O, a tel co. Yea, I worked at one of those also ALL DEC hardware. then they decided they needed higher reliability, and went All IBM... initials V ken dreger At 10:26 PM 12/2/2002 +, Alan Cox wrote: On Mon, 2002-12-02 at 18:27, John Summerfield wrote: Whatever your opionion, a lot of folk used it. I checked the openvms website and it looks to me there's a lot of excited folk involved with it now. Tons of critical stuff runs on OpenVMS, mostly because it has bulletproof clustering that goes beyond what you can ever achieve on a single box however fault tolerant. I've worked at a telco that used OpenVMS for telco billing. There is now way current offerings from most other companies, unix nt or otherwise would meet their service level. Telco billing must not stop even if an entire site is anihilated, nobody must be billed twice and no record lost.
Re: OT: FlexEs, Hercules, others
Bad assumption - I used an ibm.net address ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) from about 1992 to 1996 with absolutely no kind of IBM software license involved. Just FYI. /Per PS: ok, so it isn't an ibm.com address, but close enough :-) ISTR all Prodigy addresses were converted to ibm.net at one time - like saying hotmail.com can be confused with microsoft.com -- Phil Payne http://www.isham-research.com +44 7785 302 803 +49 173 6242039
Re: OT: FlexEs, Hercules, others
On Mon, 2 Dec 2002, Per Jessen wrote: On Tue, 3 Dec 2002 03:14:50 +0800, John Summerfield wrote: How you'd spot someone illicitly running IBM software a I don't know. I assume those writing from ibm.com addresses have the necessary approvals, Bad assumption - I used an ibm.net address ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) from about 1992 to 1996 with absolutely no kind of IBM software license involved. Just FYI. /Per PS: ok, so it isn't an ibm.com address, but close enough :-) No, it's not. ibm.net addresses were for paying customers of IBM's Internet Access business which, I thinkk, it evenutally sold off to attt. -- Cheers John. Join the Linux Support by Small Businesses list at http://mail.computerdatasafe.com.au/mailman/listinfo/lssb
Re: IBM has no realistic entry-level offering in the mainframe space
At 13:46 02.12.2002, Per Jessen wrote: On Mon, 2 Dec 2002 04:57:23 -0600, Jay Maynard wrote: With other things, though, it's possible to get in cheap at the low end. There is no corresponding way to get in cheap here. Except - and I know I'm stretching this slightly - if all you want to do is 1) be a radio-amateur, this is entirely within your reach. Almost with out regard to financial means. 2) If all you want to do is write software, this is entirely within your reach. Almost free. 1a) if you want do more than chat, maybe experiment with microwave stuff, or build your own from scratch, there are financial considerations. 2a) if you want to write software for OS390 or maybe a Cray, there are financial considerations. I don't agree with 2a. That implies somehow, that big and reliable applications can only run on OS390 or Cray, that's definitely not the case. IBM'ers tend to be too proud about GDPS and don't see (or know) the other possibilities to run redundant big sized applications. You are right: people will develop for Linux then, if they can't get a mainframe OS easily, but why is IBM whining then about diminishing mainframe business ? I don't care to much about z/OS (though it would be fun to run it on a PC as hobbyist), but if z/VM should be sold as Hypervisor for Linux/390, then there should be definitely a way, where people can try that at home if they like. Now try to sell Linux/390 on a z/Box to a service provider, who wants to run e.g. 40 servers. Nearly nobody wants z/VM, the dinosaur operating system. 99% of their arguments go away immediately, when I can show them on the PC, how it works and how easy I can clone a Linux server. That's one of the reasons why I want to have z/VM on my laptop, many others have already been mentioned. /Herbert
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Unfortunately, this is a message for those that won't get this message, but in case someone else asks you here, we are currently being blocked by sites using spamcop.net due to someone on another list asking the list how to unsubscribe, and a helpful person sending the directions he recieved when he subscribed. I've tried contacting them, and they want more information, and it is going to require more time and energy than I currently have, so it may be a little while before those sites that use spamcop.net to block email start to receive email from this list (or others at this site) I'm bringing this up because while dealing with rejections for this list tonight, I noticed several rejections for subscribers here. /ahw
