[WSG] div's going vertical instead of floating
Helloi have a problem here :http://www.rioartpack.comhttp://www.rioartpack.com/style.sccand http://www.rioatrpack.com/iefix.cssin the about and contact pages only when in IE, every few refreshes, the left div is squashed to the left below the div that's supposed to float right.any ideas ? ThanksIdo ***List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfmUnsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfmHelp: [EMAIL PROTECTED]***
Re: [WSG] div's going vertical instead of floating
from my experience with these kind of issues they can be fixed with assigning fixed widths to each div (whether in px or em).another thing to try and avoid is using width: 100% on anything as IE can have problems with this (may need to use a hack or two to hide this from IE)its a bit of a stinker this problem - good luck!- Original Message From: Ido dekkers [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: wsg wsg@webstandardsgroup.orgSent: Thursday, 2 November, 2006 8:12:26 AMSubject: [WSG] div's going vertical instead of floatingHelloi have a problem here :http://www.rioartpack.comhttp://www.rioartpack.com/style.sccand http://www.rioatrpack.com/iefix.cssin the about and contact pages only when in IE, every few refreshes, the left div is squashed to the left below the div that's supposed to float right.any ideas ? ThanksIdo ***List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfmUnsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfmHelp: [EMAIL PROTECTED]*** All new Yahoo! Mail "The new Interface is stunning in its simplicity and ease of use." - PC Magazine ***List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfmUnsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfmHelp: [EMAIL PROTECTED]***
RE: [WSG] Accessibility Trustmark
Agree also. Just another IT startup's method of placing their logo feces at the bottom of people's web pages under the premise of certifying accessibility. Christopher -Original Message- From: listdad@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, October 31, 2006 2:51 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: RE: [WSG] Accessibility Trustmark This looks little better to me than an advertising piece for another (poor quality?) commercial service. I have no experience of this company, but SiteMorse are probably the leaders in this field, and have courted plenty of controversy along the way. Any testing is better than no testing, but badges appear to have as many negatives as positives. The latter point has also been extensively covered in relation to the W3C accessibility icons. Finally, the value of a paragraph stating why the site is accessible is negligible - if it is true then who cares, and if false then of no use. Mike From: listdad@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Emma Sax Sent: Tuesday, October 31, 2006 10:21 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: [WSG] Accessibility Trustmark What are the Groups thoughts on 'trustmarks'? http://www.e-consultancy.com/news-blog/361985/accessibility--are-trustmarks- the-answer.html Are they a waste of money or are they really better than in-house testing and a paragraph on how the site is accessible? Thanks Emma *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
[WSG] Out of Office AutoReply: digest for wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Title: Out of Office AutoReply: digest for wsg@webstandardsgroup.org I am out of the office until 06/11, any urgent queries please pass onto [EMAIL PROTECTED] My inbox is not being checked. Adam ** This document is strictly confidential and is intended only for use by the addressee. If you are not the intended recipient, any disclosure, copying, distribution or other action taken in reliance of the information contained in this e-mail is strictly prohibited. Any views expressed by the sender of this message are not necessarily those of the Department for Work and Pensions. If you have received this transmission in error, please use the reply function to tell us and then permanently delete what you have received. Please note: Incoming and outgoing e-mail messages are routinely monitored for compliance with our policy on the use of electronic communications. ** The original of this email was scanned for viruses by Government Secure Intranet (GSi) virus scanning service supplied exclusively by Cable & Wireless in partnership with MessageLabs. On leaving the GSI this email was certified virus free. The MessageLabs Anti Virus Service is the first managed service to achieve the CSIA Claims Tested Mark (CCTM Certificate Number 2006/04/0007), the UK Government quality mark initiative for information security products and services. For more information about this please visit www.cctmark.gov.uk ***List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfmUnsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfmHelp: [EMAIL PROTECTED]***
[WSG] Articles/reasearch/experience of screen readers
Dear list, Not sure if this is exactly the place to ask, but I am very eager to get any authoritative (and by now, 'authoritative' can be qualified by anybody who's so much as seen one) information on screen readers. I am a css-enthusiastic web designer who sees the value of standards as a concept but does not necessarily bow to baseless trends, and more and more I see potentially brilliant ideas get shot down in the community because of 'standards' zealots who are very keen to violently condemn certain methods of working because of very dim notions of accessibility. While there is always common sense to fall back on, and we are lucky enough to live in a world with such a thing as the w3c, there are times when I become suspicious of accessibility precepts. You can't do this because screen readers will mess it up is incredibly common for inexperienced, adventurous web designers, before their imagination and creative approach to code is finally conditioned out of them without their ever being too sure why. Despite the fact I haven't been able to find anyone who has ever used a screen reader, I (have no choice but to) respect the notion that web sites should allow them a seamless, fulfilling, experience. I am obviously not doing this for any practical reward - as I've mentioned I have never had any contact with a screen reader user - for all I care they could not actually exist; but as a challenge to a very pure state of markup, the grail of smooth screen-reader navigation is worth achieving. Only I can never know if I have achieved it, because I can't test it; nor can I find anybody else to test for me, or even pin-point known problems. I think the myth surrounding screen readers is an incredibly bad thing because it fills the community with superstition. A great many otherwise intelligent, adventurous and imaginative potential innovators in the world of web design are completely crippled by this thing that they have no experience of whatsoever - it may as well be imaginary. w3c's accessibility guidelines are highly revered, and for the most part there is good cause for this - and as I've said I am a supporter of the notion of standardisation - but when talking about the precepts of design for the blind, I become very cynical because this stuff is pure idle theory from sighted people. I would love any links to articles/archived polemic/research studies/the appropriate list... If anybody here has actual experience of a screen reader, I would be overjoyed to hear from them. Likewise, if this is wholly irrelevant to this list then please tell me. :) Regards, Barney *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Articles/reasearch/experience of screen readers
On Thu, Nov 02, 2006 at 02:36:22PM +, Barney Carroll wrote: w3c's accessibility guidelines are highly revered, and for the most part there is good cause for this - and as I've said I am a supporter of the notion of standardisation - but when talking about the precepts of design for the blind, I become very cynical because this stuff is pure idle theory from sighted people. What makes you think that WCAG is pure idle theory from sighted people? There are blind users on the WAI mailing list (who have contributed to the spec), and (IIRC) rather a lot of overlap between WCAG 1.0 and the RNIB's[1] See It Right campaign. Oh, and accessibility is about Access for all not Blind people. [1] http://www.rnib.org.uk/ -- David Dorward http://dorward.me.uk *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Articles/reasearch/experience of screen readers
Barney Carroll wrote: Only I can never know if I have achieved it, because I can't test it; nor can I find anybody else to test for me, or even pin-point known problems. Dear Barney, For Firefox, this seems like an interesting utility. I haven't used it yet, but I think you might find it useful. https://addons.mozilla.org/firefox/402/ Regards, - Rahul. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Articles/reasearch/experience of screen readers
BarneyFirst port of call is try using a screen reader yourself. Although expensive to purchase, a free 30 day evaluation of IBM HPR can be obtained. The experience is different with each type of screen reader due to their quitet propriety ways of operating. Although you can never simulate being blind, running a screen reader with your screen switched off can be an interesting experience. It will make you think a lot more about usability, not only accessibility standards. On 02/11/06, Barney Carroll [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Dear list,Not sure if this is exactly the place to ask, but I am very eager to getany authoritative (and by now, 'authoritative' can be qualified byanybody who's so much as seen one) information on screen readers. I am a css-enthusiastic web designer who sees the value of standards asa concept but does not necessarily bow to baseless trends, and more andmore I see potentially brilliant ideas get shot down in the community because of 'standards' zealots who are very keen to violently condemncertain methods of working because of very dim notions of accessibility.While there is always common sense to fall back on, and we are lucky enough to live in a world with such a thing as the w3c, there are timeswhen I become suspicious of accessibility precepts. You can't do thisbecause screen readers will mess it up is incredibly common for inexperienced, adventurous web designers, before their imagination andcreative approach to code is finally conditioned out of them withouttheir ever being too sure why.Despite the fact I haven't been able to find anyone who has ever used a screen reader, I (have no choice but to) respect the notion that websites should allow them a seamless, fulfilling, experience. I amobviously not doing this for any practical reward - as I've mentioned Ihave never had any contact with a screen reader user - for all I care they could not actually exist; but as a challenge to a very pure stateof markup, the grail of smooth screen-reader navigation is worth achieving.Only I can never know if I have achieved it, because I can't test it; nor can I find anybody else to test for me, or even pin-point knownproblems.I think the myth surrounding screen readers is an incredibly bad thingbecause it fills the community with superstition. A great many otherwise intelligent, adventurous and imaginative potential innovators in theworld of web design are completely crippled by this thing that they haveno experience of whatsoever - it may as well be imaginary.w3c's accessibility guidelines are highly revered, and for the most part there is good cause for this - and as I've said I am a supporter of thenotion of standardisation - but when talking about the precepts ofdesign for the blind, I become very cynical because this stuff is pure idle theory from sighted people.I would love any links to articles/archived polemic/research studies/theappropriate list... If anybody here has actual experience of a screenreader, I would be overjoyed to hear from them. Likewise, if this is wholly irrelevant to this list then please tell me. :)Regards,Barney***List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfmUnsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfmHelp: [EMAIL PROTECTED]*** ***List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfmUnsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfmHelp: [EMAIL PROTECTED]***
Re: [WSG] Articles/reasearch/experience of screen readers
On 11/2/06, Barney Carroll [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Dear list, Not sure if this is exactly the place to ask, but I am very eager to get any authoritative (and by now, 'authoritative' can be qualified by anybody who's so much as seen one) information on screen readers. I suspect some of this conversation might be a tiny bit out of scope for hte WSG list, but hey... I don't mind. If you want more specialised discussion, then WAI have an interest group mailing list that you an use [1] and you can get some direct answers and thoughts from those working within the W3C. I am a css-enthusiastic web designer who sees the value of standards as a concept but does not necessarily bow to baseless trends, and more and more I see potentially brilliant ideas get shot down in the community because of 'standards' zealots who are very keen to violently condemn certain methods of working because of very dim notions of accessibility. I'm pretty curious to know which standardistas you're talking to then - most I know are into the standards area because they do care about accessibility and good sites for all. While there is always common sense to fall back on, and we are lucky enough to live in a world with such a thing as the w3c, there are times when I become suspicious of accessibility precepts. You can't do this because screen readers will mess it up is incredibly common for inexperienced, adventurous web designers, before their imagination and creative approach to code is finally conditioned out of them without their ever being too sure why. Despite the fact I haven't been able to find anyone who has ever used a screen reader, I (have no choice but to) respect the notion that web sites should allow them a seamless, fulfilling, experience. I am obviously not doing this for any practical reward - as I've mentioned I have never had any contact with a screen reader user - for all I care they could not actually exist; but as a challenge to a very pure state of markup, the grail of smooth screen-reader navigation is worth achieving. Recently I wrote a blog post about screen readers, and was invited to attend some real live screen reader demos with blind users. You might find these useful if you do want to get some experience. [2] If you do a quick google, there's a few organisations in the UK that do accessbility testing for you, with users who have accessibility special needs (for want of a better term). [1]http://www.w3.org/WAI/IG/ [2]http://www.fberriman.com/?p=105#comment-3592 -- Frances Berriman http://fberriman.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Articles/reasearch/experience of screen readers
On 11/2/06, Barney Carroll [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Despite the fact I haven't been able to find anyone who has ever used a screen reader, Hi Barney, JAWS used to have a free downloadable demo that would give you a taste of what it is like to use it. I used the full version on my last job. It was my first experience with a screen reader and it made me, er, see things differently. A very interesting experience. -- Philip http://NikitaTheSpider.com/ Whole-site HTML validation, link checking and more *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Articles/reasearch/experience of screen readers
On 2 Nov 2006, at 14:36:22, Barney Carroll wrote: Not sure if this is exactly the place to ask, but I am very eager to get any authoritative (and by now, 'authoritative' can be qualified by anybody who's so much as seen one) information on screen readers. Despite the fact I haven't been able to find anyone who has ever used a screen reader, Have you asked any blind people? There's probably some charitable organisation local to you that would be able to put you in touch with people with various degrees of visual impairment, using assorted assistive technologies to various levels of competence, who would be willing to participate in a properly-constructed program of user testing. Only I can never know if I have achieved it, because I can't test it; nor can I find anybody else to test for me, or even pin-point known problems. You can download trial versions of all the major screen-reading applications. (Learning to use them in the same way as a visually impaired user is a different challenge, hence the importance of user testing.) I think the myth surrounding screen readers is an incredibly bad thing because it fills the community with superstition. A great many otherwise intelligent, adventurous and imaginative potential innovators in the world of web design are completely crippled by this thing that they have no experience of whatsoever - it may as well be imaginary. My blind friend Andy would kick you in the balls for describing an awareness of the difficulties he faces as superstition or imaginary. He wears heavy boots, too. w3c's accessibility guidelines are highly revered, and for the most part there is good cause for this - and as I've said I am a supporter of the notion of standardisation - but when talking about the precepts of design for the blind, I become very cynical because this stuff is pure idle theory from sighted people. Not so. There is plenty of good information out there based on the actual experiences of blind and partially sighted people. Also note that the W3C's accessibility guidelines are not exclusively concerned with visual impairment. I would love any links to articles/archived polemic/research studies/the appropriate list... If anybody here has actual experience of a screen reader, I would be overjoyed to hear from them. Download and use one (or preferably several). And read, mark, learn and inwardly digest the book Web Accessibility: Web Standards and Regulatory Compliance (Thatcher et al., pub. Friends of Ed 2006). Likewise, if this is wholly irrelevant to this list then please tell me. :) I think any discussion of accessibility is valuable when intended to improve awareness of the issues involved :-) Regards, Nick. -- Nick Fitzsimons http://www.nickfitz.co.uk/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Articles/reasearch/experience of screen readers
Hi Barney, We have a great deal of experience of user testing with screen readers and magnifiers, and provide testing and training services. I hope this is considered to be on-topic because web standards and semantic markup are very important for screen reader users. In fact they probably benefit more than most other users. You are only 25 miles from us (we're at Staines, by Heathrow) so you (and anyone else who is interested) are welcome to attend our free demonstration of the JAWS screen reader on Monday 27 November. It starts at 1:30pm and lasts about 3 hours. In conjunction with one of our blind testers I will be demonstrating how screen readers are used, the issues facing their users and some things that can be done to make websites easier to use. There are more details and a booking form at www.accessibility.co.uk/free_jaws_demo.htm but you will need to be quick because there are only 4 or 5 places left. If anyone would like to attend but cannot make it that day we will be running more demos next year (this is the fifth and last this year). Also anyone is welcome to drop in for a chat and a brief demo any time. Steve Green Director Test Partners Ltd / First Accessibility www.testpartners.co.uk www.accessibility.co.uk Barney Carroll [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Dear list, Not sure if this is exactly the place to ask, but I am very eager to get any authoritative (and by now, 'authoritative' can be qualified by anybody who's so much as seen one) information on screen readers. I am a css-enthusiastic web designer who sees the value of standards as a concept but does not necessarily bow to baseless trends, and more and more I see potentially brilliant ideas get shot down in the community because of 'standards' zealots who are very keen to violently condemn certain methods of working because of very dim notions of accessibility. While there is always common sense to fall back on, and we are lucky enough to live in a world with such a thing as the w3c, there are times when I become suspicious of accessibility precepts. You can't do this because screen readers will mess it up is incredibly common for inexperienced, adventurous web designers, before their imagination and creative approach to code is finally conditioned out of them without their ever being too sure why. Despite the fact I haven't been able to find anyone who has ever used a screen reader, I (have no choice but to) respect the notion that web sites should allow them a seamless, fulfilling, experience. I am obviously not doing this for any practical reward - as I've mentioned I have never had any contact with a screen reader user - for all I care they could not actually exist; but as a challenge to a very pure state of markup, the grail of smooth screen-reader navigation is worth achieving. Only I can never know if I have achieved it, because I can't test it; nor can I find anybody else to test for me, or even pin-point known problems. I think the myth surrounding screen readers is an incredibly bad thing because it fills the community with superstition. A great many otherwise intelligent, adventurous and imaginative potential innovators in the world of web design are completely crippled by this thing that they have no experience of whatsoever - it may as well be imaginary. w3c's accessibility guidelines are highly revered, and for the most part there is good cause for this - and as I've said I am a supporter of the notion of standardisation - but when talking about the precepts of design for the blind, I become very cynical because this stuff is pure idle theory from sighted people. I would love any links to articles/archived polemic/research studies/the appropriate list... If anybody here has actual experience of a screen reader, I would be overjoyed to hear from them. Likewise, if this is wholly irrelevant to this list then please tell me. :) Regards, Barney *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Articles/reasearch/experience of screen readers
I've just carried out a research project (http://www.roboneill.co.uk/research.htm) in which I observed blind web users in action. You just don't realise the obstacles they face until you see it for yourself. Look in your yellow pages for a local self help group, I'm sure they would be happy to let you observe them and their access technologies in action. Rob. [EMAIL PROTECTED] 02/11/2006 15:12:25 On 2 Nov 2006, at 14:36:22, Barney Carroll wrote: Not sure if this is exactly the place to ask, but I am very eager to get any authoritative (and by now, 'authoritative' can be qualified by anybody who's so much as seen one) information on screen readers. Despite the fact I haven't been able to find anyone who has ever used a screen reader,Have you asked any blind people? There's probably some charitable organisation local to you that would be able to put you in touch with people with various degrees of visual impairment, using assorted assistive technologies to various levels of competence, who would be willing to participate in a properly-constructed program of user testing. Only I can never know if I have achieved it, because I can't test it; nor can I find anybody else to test for me, or even pin-point known problems.You can download trial versions of all the major screen-reading applications. (Learning to use them in the same way as a visually impaired user is a different challenge, hence the importance of user testing.) I think the myth surrounding screen readers is an incredibly bad thing because it fills the community with superstition. A great many otherwise intelligent, adventurous and imaginative potential innovators in the world of web design are completely crippled by this thing that they have no experience of whatsoever - it may as well be imaginary.My blind friend Andy would kick you in the balls for describing an awareness of the difficulties he faces as "superstition" or "imaginary". He wears heavy boots, too. w3c's accessibility guidelines are highly revered, and for the most part there is go! od cause for this - and as I've said I am a supporter of the notion of standardisation - but when talking about the precepts of design for the blind, I become very cynical because this stuff is pure idle theory from sighted people.Not so. There is plenty of good information out there based on the actual experiences of blind and partially sighted people. Also note that the W3C's accessibility guidelines are not exclusively concerned with visual impairment. I would love any links to articles/archived polemic/research studies/the appropriate list... If anybody here has actual experience of a screen reader, I would be overjoyed to hear from them.Download and use one (or preferably several). And read, mark, learn and inwardly digest the book "Web Accessibility: Web Standards and Regulatory Compliance" (Thatcher et al., pub. Friends of Ed 2006). Likewise, if this is wholly irrelevant to this list then please tell me. :)I think any discussion of accessibility is valuable when intended to improve awareness of the issues involved :-)Regards,Nick.-- Nick Fitzsimonshttp://www.nickfitz.co.uk/***List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfmUnsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfmHelp: [EMAIL PROTECTED]*** *** IMPORTANT NOTICE *** *** NHSBSA DISCLAIMER *** This e-mail and any attachments transmitted with it, including replies and forwarded copies subsequently transmitted (which may contain alterations), contains information which may be confidential and which may also be privileged. The content of this e-mail is for the exclusive use of the intended recipient(s). If you are not the intended recipient(s), or the person authorised as responsible for delivery to the intended recipient(s), please note that any form of distribution, copying or use of this e-mail or the information in it is strictly prohibited and may be unlawful. If you have received this e-mail in error please notify the Help Desk at the NHS Business Services Authority, Prescription Pricing Division via e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] including a copy of this message. Please then delete this e-mail and destroy any copies of it. Further, we make every effort to keep our network free from viruses. However, you do need to validate this e-mail and any attachments to it for viruses, as we can take no responsibility for any computer virus that might be transferred by way of this e-mail. This e-mail is from the NHS Business Services Authority whose principal office is at Bridge House, 152 Pilgrim Street, Newcastle-upon-Tyne, NE1 6SN. Switchboard Telephone Number :- +44 (0)191 232 5371 ***List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfmUnsubscribe:
Re: [WSG] Articles/reasearch/experience of screen readers
Whether you use Fangs or a real screen reader it is difficult for a developer or tester to know if a website is really accessible unless they have an understanding of how screen reader users visualise a website and interact with it. There is a huge difference between being able to hear the content and being able to understand it. Whilst it is possible to make some generalities (as we do in our demonstrations) every user testing project reveals difficulties we would not have forseen. It is far too big a topic to discuss at length here, but problems include having too much content on a page, use of visual metaphors, and the meaning of the content being conveyed by the spatial relationship between two or more pieces of content. In each case all the content can be heard but it may not be understood. Complex tables and nested lists may be unintelligible despite being marked up perfectly in terms of semantics and standards compliance. And dynamic content (e.g. DHTML and AJAX) is a world of pain. Steve Green Director Test Partners Ltd / First Accessibility www.testpartners.co.uk www.accessibility.co.uk Rahul Gonsalves [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Barney Carroll wrote: Only I can never know if I have achieved it, because I can't test it; nor can I find anybody else to test for me, or even pin-point known problems. Dear Barney, For Firefox, this seems like an interesting utility. I haven't used it yet, but I think you might find it useful. https://addons.mozilla.org/firefox/402/ Regards, - Rahul. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Rotten Standardistas [WAS: Articles/reasearch/experience of screen readers]
On 11/2/06, Barney Carroll [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I am a css-enthusiastic web designer who sees the value of standards as a concept but does not necessarily bow to baseless trends, and more and more I see potentially brilliant ideas get shot down in the community because of 'standards' zealots who are very keen to violently condemn certain methods of working because of very dim notions of accessibility. *** DISCLAIMER *** This has nothing to do with the person who said this, nor is it an attack related in any way to the original topic. I am not even discrediting the validity of this statement. I'm really tired of hearing about rotten standardistas without any information as to who these people are. I have never met a standardista I didn't like, and I assume that this opinion can only be formed of a standardista by misunderstandings. From now on, please stop with the vague references to these rotten standardistas... they are becoming like ghosts; everyone talks about them but no one has ever seen them. Moreover, such vague references only undermine the entire community of web-standards-enthusiasts and gives more fodder to our detractors. If you have been the victim of a rotten standardista, please refer to them by name and give us the URL of their blog or portfolio, so we can resolve the possible misunderstandings or out these rotten people altogether. Otherwise I will just have to keep on assuming that these specters don't exist. Thanks in advance. -- -- Christian Montoya christianmontoya.com ... portfolio.christianmontoya.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Articles/reasearch/experience of screen readers
On 11/2/06, Michael Yeaney [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: And yet again...on the topic of screen readers, nobody has once mentioned the possibility that perhaps we as web developers a pretty darn good job, and that maybe it is the screen reader manufacturers that need the 'kick in the balls'why, I'm not sure - but it seems to be a trend. I mentioned this in the blog post I wrote to that I linked to. I think that poor screen reader software is a very *big* issue that is generally overlooked since we do not use them. -- Frances Berriman http://fberriman.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Rotten Standardistas
Christian Montoya wrote: Otherwise I will just have to keep on assuming that these specters don't exist. There are one or two font-size fanatics that will accuse you of not respecting your users if you feel the need to set a font size other than default. does that count? *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Articles/reasearch/experience of screen readers
That's because very few actually do a pretty darn good job. Most don't give screen reader users a moment's thought, and it is fortunate that they coincidentally benefit from some things that good designers do such as semantic markup and standards-compliant coding. Furthermore, I don't think that many designers understand how to design websites that are screen reader friendly even if they wanted to. How many designers have ever worked with a screen reader user and learned what the real issues are? Screen reader software could certainly be improved but most of the problems users face are not due to technical limitations. The problems mostly relate to understanding a linearised version of multi-dimensional content that lacks the visual styling and spatial relationships that make browsing easy for sighted users. Steve Green Director Test Partners Ltd / First Accessibility www.testpartners.co.uk www.accessibility.co.uk Michael Yeaney [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: And yet again...on the topic of screen readers, nobody has once mentioned the possibility that perhaps we as web developers a pretty darn good job, and that maybe it is the screen reader manufacturers that need the 'kick in the balls'why, I'm not sure - but it seems to be a trend. Mike *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] Site Check - Mitra Foundation
Hi Rahul, It is a really nice site! Did you design and build it? On the home page the use of so many fonts, in particular the ad for the Carbon Campus Neutral Project, is a bit overwhelming. But that is the only thing that I can suggest changing, I really like the colours nice and natural really suit the topic. Cheers, Rachel -Original Message- From: listdad@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Rahul Gonsalves Sent: Thursday, 2 November 2006 4:21 p.m. To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: [WSG] Site Check - Mitra Foundation Dear All, http://rahulgonsalves.com/mitra/0111/index.html I would appreciate a site check, for this website - built for a non-profit looking to promote alternative energy choices. I have looked at the site in various Windows browsers - Opera 9, FF 2/1.5, IE 6,7, SeaMonkey and Flock. I have also checked out some of the pages using the SnugTech Safari test, and it seems mostly passable, if not quite pixel-perfect across these browsers. I'd appreciate a heads-up on any of the linux and mac browsers, and various older browsers, if you have access to them. The site validates, except for the use of one proprietary IE-specific PNG hack. The CSS /should/ validate. Please do give me your suggestions - all of them are appreciated very much. However, suggestions that aren't related to CSS, off-list, please. Thanks in advance, - Rahul. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
[WSG] Additional space between sentences ?
Hi Group, A client has requested that the content on their site has two spaces between the end of one sentence and the start of the next. We could do it by using non-breaking spaces, but is there a better way of achieving this - possibly with CSS? Thanks in anticipation. Nick -- Nick Roper partner logical elements *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Additional space between sentences ?
There was quite the flame war on this topic about a month ago, you might want to check archives... You will certainly get some responses in the why would you do that, it's old-school, and it's wrong variety. But I insist on it as well on my site, and I have done a great deal of research on how to accomplish it. In short, there is no good CSS way to do this, and there is really only one way to accomplish it: with nbsp;space. This preserves line breaking and provides the necessary space. I do it reliably through PHP on my site, if you want to see my regular expression code that does it, talk to me off list, and I'll happily give you the code (I was attacked the last time I posted it...). If you want/need to do it with HTML, I can only think of inserting it by hand... A real PITA. HTH, Chris From: Nick Roper [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [WSG] Additional space between sentences ? A client has requested that the content on their site has two spaces between the end of one sentence and the start of the next. We could do it by using non-breaking spaces, but is there a better way of achieving this - possibly with CSS? *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Additional space between sentences ?
on 02/11/2006 19:24 Nick Roper said the following: A client has requested that the content on their site has two spaces between the end of one sentence and the start of the next. Have they said why? Or indicated how big a unit a single space is (serious question)? If they're looking to improve readability, there are far more significant issues that they should be considering - such as what font type is being used, as well as line-height letter-spacing and word-spacing. Not to mention that actual construction of the content itself. Adding an extra space to the end of each sentence hasn't been shown to improve readability in any study I've read and might actually impede reading in the same way that justified text can do. We could do it by using non-breaking spaces, but is there a better way of achieving this - possibly with CSS? Nothing immediately springs to my mind. (X)HTML simply doesn't have a mechanisem for indicating where one sentence starts and another begins within a single paragraph. Enclose every sentence in a span and then style the span? It would be extremely tedious and would bloat the markup terribly (and unnecessarily, in my opinion). And for what benefit? Mel *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Additional space between sentences ?
Nick Roper wrote:
Hi Group,
A client has requested that the content on their site has two spaces
between the end of one sentence and the start of the next. We could do
it by using non-breaking spaces, but is there a better way of
achieving this - possibly with CSS?
Thanks in anticipation.
Nick
We had a discussion on this recently, and, although tedious, it was
decided that each sentence was best put in a span class=sentence
wherein this was defined simply as :
.sentence {padding-right: 0.5em; }
All other approaches (non-breaking space, using pre, etc) had problems,
it seems.
You can see a page done like this at:
http://www.rhh.myzen.co.uk/rhh2007/terms/terms.html (this site is under
construction)
You can see one of the pitfalls in paragraph 2: if the text is
justified, you encounter some lines shorter, because of the padding, but
it isn't often, so I decided that it was better to have a small %
incorrect whilst maintaining the spacing throughout the rest of the
page/site.
I have painstakingly done this for the whole of the site - but the
client is delighted! :'( and :-)
HTH,
--
Best Regards,
Bob McClelland
Cornwall (UK)
www.gwelanmor-internet.co.uk
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Re: [WSG] Additional space between sentences ?
Nick Roper wrote:
Hi Group,
A client has requested that the content on their site has two spaces
between the end of one sentence and the start of the next. We could do
it by using non-breaking spaces, but is there a better way of
achieving this - possibly with CSS?
Thanks in anticipation.
Nick
Adjust the leading (line-height) of p.
body { font: 100%/normal sans-serif; }
p { line-height: 1.6; margin:0 0 1em 0;padding:0;}
Best,
~dL
--
http://chelseacreekstudio.com/
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Re: [WSG] Additional space between sentences ?
~davidLaakso wrote:
Nick Roper wrote:
Hi Group,
A client has requested that the content on their site has two spaces
between the end of one sentence and the start of the next. We could
do it by using non-breaking spaces, but is there a better way of
achieving this - possibly with CSS?
Thanks in anticipation.
Nick
Adjust the leading (line-height) of p.
body { font: 100%/normal sans-serif; }
p { line-height: 1.6; margin:0 0 1em 0;padding:0;}
Best,
~dL
Ignore what I wrote. I am out to lunch :-) .
~d
--
http://chelseacreekstudio.com/
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Re: [WSG] Additional space between sentences ?
Hi Chris, Thanks for the reply, I'll get in touch off-list for the regex code - much appreciated. We use PHP to implement CMS for clients so that would fit well. Before anyone does leap into print to condemn the practice as old-school or wrong, I'm not really interested in getting involved in a debate. My client is paying the money, they want two spaces, and - as far as I can see - it doesn't have any impact on usability or accessibility. Also, the client is a solicitor and 'old-school' anyway. Thanks, Nick Chris Williams wrote: There was quite the flame war on this topic about a month ago, you might want to check archives... You will certainly get some responses in the why would you do that, it's old-school, and it's wrong variety. But I insist on it as well on my site, and I have done a great deal of research on how to accomplish it. In short, there is no good CSS way to do this, and there is really only one way to accomplish it: with nbsp;space. This preserves line breaking and provides the necessary space. I do it reliably through PHP on my site, if you want to see my regular expression code that does it, talk to me off list, and I'll happily give you the code (I was attacked the last time I posted it...). If you want/need to do it with HTML, I can only think of inserting it by hand... A real PITA. HTH, Chris From: Nick Roper [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [WSG] Additional space between sentences ? A client has requested that the content on their site has two spaces between the end of one sentence and the start of the next. We could do it by using non-breaking spaces, but is there a better way of achieving this - possibly with CSS? *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** -- Nick Roper partner logical elements innovative web and internet solutions zend/php mysql approved partner email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] phone: +44 1749 676798 www: www.logical.co.uk skype: nick.roper / +44 20 7870 9587 *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Additional space between sentences ?
Designer,
Thanks for that. I see what you mean about the space at the end of the
line in para 2, but the content won't be justified on the site so
shouldn't be an issue.
Nick
Designer wrote:
Nick Roper wrote:
Hi Group,
A client has requested that the content on their site has two spaces
between the end of one sentence and the start of the next. We could do
it by using non-breaking spaces, but is there a better way of
achieving this - possibly with CSS?
Thanks in anticipation.
Nick
We had a discussion on this recently, and, although tedious, it was
decided that each sentence was best put in a span class=sentence
wherein this was defined simply as :
.sentence {padding-right: 0.5em; }
All other approaches (non-breaking space, using pre, etc) had problems,
it seems.
You can see a page done like this at:
http://www.rhh.myzen.co.uk/rhh2007/terms/terms.html (this site is under
construction)
You can see one of the pitfalls in paragraph 2: if the text is
justified, you encounter some lines shorter, because of the padding, but
it isn't often, so I decided that it was better to have a small %
incorrect whilst maintaining the spacing throughout the rest of the
page/site.
I have painstakingly done this for the whole of the site - but the
client is delighted! :'( and :-)
HTH,
--
Nick Roper
partner
logical elements
innovative web and internet solutions
zend/php mysql approved partner
email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
phone: +44 1749 676798
www: www.logical.co.uk
skype: nick.roper / +44 20 7870 9587
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Re: [WSG] Articles/reasearch/experience of screen readers
Hi all, Michael - I'm not exactly sure which message in particular you are replying to, but I have a few comments on this statement you made: On 11/2/06, Michael Yeaney wrote: And yet again...on the topic of screen readers, nobody has once mentioned the possibility that perhaps we as web developers a pretty darn good job, and that maybe it is the screen reader manufacturers that need the 'kick in the balls' Perhaps we are doing a pretty darn good job. Sadly though, we are not in the majority. And therein lies the difficulty. When we talk about we doing a pretty darn good job, we're talking about - what - maybe 5% of web professionals worldwide? More, less? I'm not sure but we're not in the majority as far as I can tell. Further - you have written about screen reader manufacturers. What, exactly are the issues that you feel you need to kick them in the balls about? Frances - you said: I think that poor screen reader software is a very *big* issue that is generally overlooked since we do not use them. If we're going to do anything, then we'd better be able to say somethign more substantial that poor screen reader software - we need to be able to back it up. (That sounded like I was singling you out, Frances - but far from it... You just happened to comment) This is one thing we're attempting to address with the Assistive Technology Initiative of the Web Standards Project's Accessibility Task Force [1]. Through this initiative we are talking with screen reader manufacturers and other Assistive Technology vendors. They are engaging with us to work together. (Note that we're working with any vendors that want - for profit, open source, whatever) (For those of you that don't know, I'm a WaSP member and Lead of the WaSP Accessibility Task Force) So if I may make a few suggestions: 1. Let us not kick anyone in the balls. We're part of the same team here. Lets keep this constructive. Michael - what exactly is it about screen readers that is bugging you? Frances - what is it about them that is poor? Anyone else? 2. Are there issues that you want to have us address in our discussions with them? Or are there things you want clarified? 3. Take these items and email them to me for now - I'm going to figure out some other mechanism (perhaps on the WaSP site) to collect these ideas and feedback from you and we'll pull them all together. For now - email to me is fine (he says with much trepidation!) Cheers, Derek. [1] http://webstandards.org/action/atf/open-invitation-to-assistive- technology-vendors/ -- Derek Featherstone [EMAIL PROTECTED] tel: +1 613-599-9784 1-866-932-4878 (toll-free in North America) Web Development: http://www.furtherahead.com Personal:http://www.boxofchocolates.ca Web Standards: http://www.webstandards.org *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Rotten Standardistas
Tony Crockford wrote: Christian Montoya wrote: Otherwise I will just have to keep on assuming that these specters don't exist. There are one or two font-size fanatics that will accuse you of not respecting your users if you feel the need to set a font size other than default. does that count? I used to think so till I found out why exactly. Different users may have an unusual default font-size set, if you set anything other than the default font-size *on the body* it means they end up not getting the size they wanted/need. You can set your different font-sizes on the elements within at your leisure. I still don't quite get what the difference is but seeing as font-size on the web is completely arbitrary (or should be) it doesn't make a difference. You have to set font-sizes relative to the users default for your elements anyway. The choice is yours but at least base it on what you know for a fact about every potential visitor in your target audience. Rob O *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Articles/reasearch/experience of screen readers
On 03/11/06, Derek Featherstone [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: So if I may make a few suggestions:Nicely said. Way to cut through the crap! ***List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfmUnsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfmHelp: [EMAIL PROTECTED]***
Re: [WSG] Articles/reasearch/experience of screen readers
1. Let us not kick anyone in the balls. ... Agreed...especially with heavy boots..LoL..onward: What frustrates me most about screen reader software for the web is the fact that the only way for them to get information from a document is to flatten and remove ~2/3's (CSS and script) of the factors that (possibly) are contributing to the presentation as a whole (be it audio/visual/etc.) After working with desktop software for a while before moving to the web, I can tell you that there really aren't any layout considerations done on behalf of the software to help accessibility clients (such as screen readers). Why??? Two reasons: 1) The isn't any other way to develop the software for the desktop (you can't change the layout, there are no style sheets to remove, etc.) 2) From a 'semantic structure' point of view (if there is such a thing for desktop software), these type s of applications are a mess - windows nested within windows ad nauseum (OS windows mind you). 3) The are specific API's designed to help convey information to accessibility clients from the software (Microsoft's Active Accessibility API comes to mind). So, in a nutshell, I guess what I'm miffed about is that world of the web has no matching counterpart, be it in script, tag attributes, or otherwise, to help accessibility clients discover and convey information about a site.. Seems like a very big gap, IMO. Thoughts??? Mike *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Articles/reasearch/experience of screen readers
On 11/2/06, Michael Yeaney wrote: What frustrates me most about screen reader software for the web is the fact that the only way for them to get information from a document is to flatten and remove ~2/3's (CSS and script) of the factors that (possibly) are contributing to the presentation as a whole (be it audio/visual/etc.) I'd like to respond to this one a little bit later... on to the rest: 1) The isn't any other way to develop the software for the desktop (you can't change the layout, there are no style sheets to remove, etc.) There may not be the ability to change the layout, but there are layout considerations when developing desktop software. If you are building a desktop application and drag and drop form fields (a convenient example, I'll admit) their tab order is in the order in which they were dragged on to the form or stage or whatever-the-thing-is-called-in-your-situation. So, what do we do? We make the layout more linear using the tabIndex property. The linear, logical order is the equivalent to layout - it mimics to a certain extent the logical visual layout that is apparent on through visual grouping, proximity and similarity of style. 2) From a 'semantic structure' point of view (if there is such a thing for desktop software), these type s of applications are a mess - windows nested within windows ad nauseum (OS windows mind you). I'm not following what you mean here (seriously!) - are you saying that semantic structure doesn't exist in desktop applications? I'm not sure how that applies here... Can you clarify? 3) The are specific API's designed to help convey information to accessibility clients from the software (Microsoft's Active Accessibility API comes to mind). Indeed. Windows based screen readers tie directly into the MSA API. VoiceOver on OSX ties in directly to the OSX Accessibility API, and other *nix based screen readers are trying to do the same... So, in a nutshell, I guess what I'm miffed about is that world of the web has no matching counterpart, be it in script, tag attributes, or otherwise, to help accessibility clients discover and convey information about a site.. Seems like a very big gap, IMO. I don't think the gap is as big as you think it might, to be honest. Cheers, Derek. -- Derek Featherstone [EMAIL PROTECTED] tel: +1 613-599-9784 1-866-932-4878 (toll-free in North America) Web Development: http://www.furtherahead.com Personal:http://www.boxofchocolates.ca Web Standards: http://www.webstandards.org *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Articles/reasearch/experience of screen readers
On 11/2/06, Derek Featherstone [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: 1. Let us not kick anyone in the balls. We're part of the same team here. Lets keep this constructive. Michael - what exactly is it about screen readers that is bugging you? Frances - what is it about them that is poor? Anyone else? Hey Derek - yeah.. I just whipped out a quick response on my way out of the office door - I should have thought about it more first. I just meant mostly that the software - in my limited experience personally using it - seems difficult to use. I'm hoping to learn more about how users REALLY use them when I attend Steve's live demo later this month! I certainly didn't intend to come across as harsh to any party in my response, by the way. I'm as keen as anyone to help in some way to improve people's experiences on the web. F -- Frances Berriman http://fberriman.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Articles/reasearch/experience of screen readers
On 11/2/06, Frances Berriman wrote: I just meant mostly that the software - in my limited experience personally using it - seems difficult to use. Hi Frances - no worries... Yes, I would expect it to be difficult for you to use. Guess what? (Forgive the generalizations about to be written) It is generally difficult for new screen reader users too. They have motivation on their side, though. They get used to it. Sometimes it is all they know, and that is difficult for us to understand because our perceptions of the web are so very different. I'm not saying that screen readers are perfect, but they are an incredibly enabling technology that has evolved over years to find ways to make sense of crappy web sites (you know, the other 95% of sites that aren't founded on web standards and accessibility) I'm hoping to learn more about how users REALLY use them when I attend Steve's live demo later this month! A perfect plan of attack, IMO. I certainly didn't intend to come across as harsh to any party in my response, by the way. I'm as keen as anyone to help in some way to improve people's experiences on the web. I didn't think you did, but wanted to clarify - if there was something that you thought was poor about them, then I wanted to know so that any issues are brought forward, discussed and potentially resolved or clarified. If you do think of anything, please do let me know... I'm all ears! (and eyes) Cheers, Derek. -- Derek Featherstone [EMAIL PROTECTED] tel: +1 613-599-9784 1-866-932-4878 (toll-free in North America) Web Development: http://www.furtherahead.com Personal:http://www.boxofchocolates.ca Web Standards: http://www.webstandards.org *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Rotten Standardistas
On 11/2/06, Tony Crockford [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Christian Montoya wrote: Otherwise I will just have to keep on assuming that these specters don't exist. There are one or two font-size fanatics that will accuse you of not respecting your users if you feel the need to set a font size other than default. does that count? As an example of the kind of empty talk I'm tired of, yes. That statement doesn't say who these people are or where they said it. I'm not saying this to open up a whole lot of finger pointing and cause a whole lot of argument among list members. I'm not trying to create friction at all. I'm just saying that if you open up a discussion among a web-standards-community and give us a long dissertation on the problems you have had with apparent standardistas, give us something tangible to show that these standardistas exist. Otherwise we can't tell who said what, why what was said, or get into why there may have been a misunderstanding in the first place. If it is something that was said on list, it's as easy as searching the list archives and pointing us to the prior thread, which is helpful for a lot of other reasons. My whole reasoning for this is because most of the time (especially on this list), what is said that is perceived as detrimental is actually true, and we simply have to be able to take the range of opinions and information posed by all the people involved and know how to make the right choices. So for the example you posed, at least you were specific in what was said, and as it turns out from Rob's response: Different users may have an unusual default font-size set, if you set anything other than the default font-size *on the body* it means they end up not getting the size they wanted/need. You can set your different font-sizes on the elements within at your leisure. ... there is some merit to what the font-size fanatics are saying and there's something to be learned from addressing it. -- -- Christian Montoya christianmontoya.com ... portfolio.christianmontoya.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Articles/reasearch/experience of screen readers
Good points...I'll try to clarify: There may not be the ability to change the layout, but there are layout considerations when developing desktop software. If you are building a desktop application and drag and drop form fields (a convenient example, I'll admit) their tab order is in the order in which they were dragged on to the form or stage or whatever-the-thing-is-called-in-your-situation. So, what do we do? We make the layout more linear using the tabIndex property. The linear, logical order is the equivalent to layout - it mimics to a certain extent the logical visual layout that is apparent on through visual grouping, proximity and similarity of style. If tab index was all we were worried about, this discussion would be over. It goes way beyond that. As you indicated, this example was a bit contrived - even in the web, a document stripped of all supporting files still maintains tab index. The same cannot be said for the implied importance a certain color scheme gives to an element. If we could 'notify' the screen readers that some specific DIV was 'important', 'ranked higher' or had 'new content', we have provided a usable substitute to color alone. I'm not following what you mean here (seriously!) - are you saying that semantic structure doesn't exist in desktop applications? I'm not sure how that applies here... Can you clarify? I was attempting to draw the parallel with web documents stripped of all styling methods and desktop apps stripped of layout context (if that were possible). If you have ever used Spy++ (an MS tool designed to show handle references), you would see that even the simplest applications are made up of many, nested objects that don't necessarily contribute to the semantic meaning of the application (and in some cases contradict it). For example, a simple drop down list (like our SELECT tag) has it's own window handle in the OS. Is it a window to the user??? Absolutely not. Is it a window in the context of the application??? No. Does this (on it's own) effectively convey what this control is for?? No. Not very semantic (by definition, anyway). Yet desktop screen readers are fine with this type of hierarchy. So to bring this example to the web (and to use my own contrived example), let's say I have an dv / iframe / object floating (visually) somewhere at the bottom of my web app that is delivering a custom channel of information that's updated every minute or so, and it briefly flashes when it updates. What would be the harm in allowing me to 'register' this tag with the screen reader as the 'Stock Quote Feed' to give it some context And also, when it updates, I want to the let the reader know via a raised event. I think the WHATWG was/is considering something like this, but I'm surprised it has taken this long. I don't think the gap is as big as you think it might, to be honest. Maybe not for web content sites that are document-centric to begin with, but the web application world is not so easy to 'flatten'. But that's a topic for another day HTH, Mike *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Articles/reasearch/experience of screen readers
I have been following this with great interest. What I have been considering (I know its been covered before) is putting a link at the top of the page, go to text version Go to menu I would think that screen reader users would find that a good addition to be able to read an article in text only, and a shortcut to scan articles which also have brief title tags in addition to descriptive titles. In my design content comes first already... Bruce Prochnau BKDesign Solutions - Original Message - From: Derek Featherstone [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Thursday, November 02, 2006 4:47 PM Subject: Re: [WSG] Articles/reasearch/experience of screen readers On 11/2/06, Michael Yeaney wrote: What frustrates me most about screen reader software for the web is the fact that the only way for them to get information from a document is to flatten and remove ~2/3's (CSS and script) of the factors that (possibly) are contributing to the presentation as a whole (be it audio/visual/etc.) I'd like to respond to this one a little bit later... on to the rest: 1) The isn't any other way to develop the software for the desktop (you can't change the layout, there are no style sheets to remove, etc.) There may not be the ability to change the layout, but there are layout considerations when developing desktop software. If you are building a desktop application and drag and drop form fields (a convenient example, I'll admit) their tab order is in the order in which they were dragged on to the form or stage or whatever-the-thing-is-called-in-your-situation. So, what do we do? We make the layout more linear using the tabIndex property. The linear, logical order is the equivalent to layout - it mimics to a certain extent the logical visual layout that is apparent on through visual grouping, proximity and similarity of style. 2) From a 'semantic structure' point of view (if there is such a thing for desktop software), these type s of applications are a mess - windows nested within windows ad nauseum (OS windows mind you). I'm not following what you mean here (seriously!) - are you saying that semantic structure doesn't exist in desktop applications? I'm not sure how that applies here... Can you clarify? 3) The are specific API's designed to help convey information to accessibility clients from the software (Microsoft's Active Accessibility API comes to mind). Indeed. Windows based screen readers tie directly into the MSA API. VoiceOver on OSX ties in directly to the OSX Accessibility API, and other *nix based screen readers are trying to do the same... So, in a nutshell, I guess what I'm miffed about is that world of the web has no matching counterpart, be it in script, tag attributes, or otherwise, to help accessibility clients discover and convey information about a site.. Seems like a very big gap, IMO. I don't think the gap is as big as you think it might, to be honest. Cheers, Derek. -- Derek Featherstone [EMAIL PROTECTED] tel: +1 613-599-9784 1-866-932-4878 (toll-free in North America) Web Development: http://www.furtherahead.com Personal:http://www.boxofchocolates.ca Web Standards: http://www.webstandards.org *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Rotten Standardistas
Christian Montoya wrote: On 11/2/06, Tony Crockford [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: There are one or two font-size fanatics that will accuse you of not respecting your users if you feel the need to set a font size other than default. As an example of the kind of empty talk I'm tired of, yes. That statement doesn't say who these people are or where they said it. Felix Miata springs to mind... P -- Patrick H. Lauke __ re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively [latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.] www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk http://redux.deviantart.com __ Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force http://webstandards.org/ __ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] Articles/reasearch/experience of screen readers
A 'go to text version' link certainly won't hurt, but our experience of user testing is that they are rarely used. In fact we did a test project last week where the site had a text version, an audio version and a built-in magnifier, but only one of the three users (who was a screen reader user) even noticed any of them. However, despite having some difficulties with the site he never tried the text-only version. Maybe this is because in the past text-only versions were maintained (or not) separately and often had outdated or incomplete content. Obviously it is possible to generate both versions from the same content but few sites do this. We also came across a site that had no fewer that six 'skip to' links such as 'skip to main navigation', 'skip to sub navigation', 'skip to main content' etc. The whole thing was so verbose that they really needed a 'skip past all these skip links' link. The point being that screen reader users benefit from pages being as terse as possible (i.e. less to remember), and that sometimes they are hindered by features that have been added to help them. With regard to 'title' attributes, by default these are not read by most screen readers. Some have an option that allows the user to read them but that's little use because the user has no way of knowing if an element has a 'title' attribute except by trial and error, and it's too much hard work to keep checking. My email program mangled my previous emails today, so in case anyone missed it, we're running a free JAWS demo on 27 November. Full details and booking form at www.accessibility.co.uk/free_jaws_demo.htm. Steve Green Director Test Partners Ltd / First Accessibility www.testpartners.co.uk www.accessibility.co.uk -Original Message- From: listdad@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Bruce Sent: 02 November 2006 23:28 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] Articles/reasearch/experience of screen readers I have been following this with great interest. What I have been considering (I know its been covered before) is putting a link at the top of the page, go to text version Go to menu I would think that screen reader users would find that a good addition to be able to read an article in text only, and a shortcut to scan articles which also have brief title tags in addition to descriptive titles. In my design content comes first already... Bruce Prochnau BKDesign Solutions *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] Rotten Standardistas
-Original Message- From: listdad@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Christian Montoya Sent: Friday, 3 November 2006 9:24 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] Rotten Standardistas There are one or two font-size fanatics that will accuse you of not respecting your users if you feel the need to set a font size other than default. does that count? As an example of the kind of empty talk I'm tired of, yes. That statement doesn't say who these people are or where they said it. Christian, I think what you are suggesting could indeed end up in just a lot of finger pointing and turn this dicussion group very ugly. On the one hand I can understand why you want people to be more specific when they complain about standardistas. But really, why pick on what one particular person said? When Tony for example talks about font-size fanatics do we really need to know which person in particular he means? Don't we all know that he means those of us that strongly believe in the importance of setting relative font-sizes? A lot of the discussions in this group are not over the value of Web Standards (we all agree they are helpful), but over how rigidly they should be implemented. Some of us believe that the standard of relative font sizes is not just a guideline, but a rule that should not be broken (if possible). Others see the need for a certain amount of flexibility in the implementation of this standard. These are the two camps, we all know that they exist, why pinpoint individuals from each one of them? I think the problem is more the negative connotation of a term such as standard fanatics, font-size fanatics or standards zealots. Coming back to the original post: On 11/2/06, Barney Carroll [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I am a css-enthusiastic web designer who sees the value of standards as a concept but does not necessarily bow to baseless trends, and more and more I see potentially brilliant ideas get shot down in the community because of 'standards' zealots who are very keen to violently condemn certain methods of working because of very dim notions of accessibility. I think what Barney was trying to express so vividly was that he disagreed with those of us who do not believe there may be cases in which we have to allow for a certain amount of flexibility in the implementation of web standards. Most of us know that there are members of this group who would never touch absolute font sizes, no matter what happens. We also know that there are members who violently oppose opening links in new windows. That's nothing to be ashamed of - just another opinion. Do we need to name names? I don't see the need for it. Maybe we can come up with more descriptive names for the two camps? Instead of standard zealots I recommend to call them Aggressive, conservative standard bullies. On the other side we've got the Can't-commit-to-nothing, undecisive, liberal guideline whimps. Some of us may feel to belong to one of the groups, others see themselves somewhere in between. But we all know what we are talking about, don't we? *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Rotten Standardistas
On 2006/11/02 23:46 (GMT) Patrick H. Lauke apparently typed: Christian Montoya wrote Thu, 2 Nov 2006 17:24:29 -0500: On Thu, 02 Nov 2006 18:26:25 +, Tony Crockford wrote: There are one or two font-size fanatics that will accuse you of not respecting your users if you feel the need to set a font size other than default. As an example of the kind of empty talk I'm tired of, yes. That statement doesn't say who these people are or where they said it. Felix Miata springs to mind... I submit the following blatant statements of position: http://mrmazda.no-ip.com/auth/bigdefaults.html http://mrmazda.no-ip.com/auth/accessibility.html -- Rejoice and be glad, because great is your reward in heaven. Matthew 5:12 NIV Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 Felix Miata *** http://mrmazda.no-ip.com/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] Articles/reasearch/experience of screen readers
When I worked at the National Library we had Vision Australia (used to be the Blind Society) look at the new Libraries Australia website. You can pay for them to go through a site and theyll tell you and show you whether it can be used by visually impaired people. It is a real eye opener to see what they do and how they use a site. In the end, we learned the following lessons about vision impaired users and screen readers: a) Only a completely blind person used the screen reader. Most people with a visual impairment will use a screen magnifier that brings a completely different perspective to things. They only see a small piece of the website at a time. Itd be like looking at a screen only through a magnifying glass. b) Consistency of layout is important. If you have a 3 column layout, use it throughout the site. They will get an expectation of component x to be in the same place for every page. If it is not they will have a hard time trying to find it. c) Keep it standards compliant and make sure the (x)html code validates (if you get this right then its easier to get the accessibility right) d) Make sure that the flow of narrative through the document makes sense if you take the css away. Use headings to differentiate between menus and content e) Make sure that when images are content they are in the document. Otherwise, use css to make them part of the design. f) Adding tab order through your menus is helpful. g) Forms are trickiest. We found it best to make sure that the words came first and then the action. Many people are tempted, for example, to put the checkbox first and then the words next. [ ] Male [ ] Female They wanted to see it this way: Male [ ] Female [ ] This also had more sense for the blind person with the screen reader. It read the text before saying there was a checkbox. Same thing for search. Use the word search, then the text field, then the button. Then there was the things about using labels for forms, table/column headers and captions. All these things make it easier for the screen reader, but not for screen magnifiers. Hope this is of some help M ***List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfmUnsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfmHelp: [EMAIL PROTECTED]***
Re: [WSG] Articles/reasearch/experience of screen readers
I would love any links to articles/archived polemic/research studies/the appropriate list... If anybody here has actual experience of a screen reader, I would be overjoyed to hear from them. Joe Clark or James Edwards aka Brothercake are practicing screen reader testing with various some-technology-enabled sites to test AT behaviour.[1][2] (Plus there's one more on this from Bruce Lawson.[3]) If you're looking for a dedicated forum, you could try AccessifyForum.com [4] ... BTW I use VoiceOver on MacOS X pretty often. The same goes for inverted color scheme or zoomed screen - my eyes simply hurt after a whole day stuck to a display... The issue I see nowadays is where the assistive technology doesn't quite catch up with the recent best-practice (sorry to lean it all towards JS/DOM...). One thing is having an accessible content, however I really believe the AT should be built in the system in such way that it could really handle all the information a sighted user could get, and process it for the screen reader. Derek, I'm talking about non-linear DOM changes or generally event announcement. I think we quite agreed on that with Tomas Caspers and Brothercake. BTW a half year ago I commented on this topic under Garrett's article[5], and maybe made the same mistake of mentioning turning JS off as Derek did some time ago if I'm not mistaken. [1]http://joeclark.org/access/research/ice/iceweb2006-notes.html [2]http://www.sitepoint.com/print/ajax-screenreaders-work [3]http://www.brucelawson.co.uk/index.php/2006/ajax-accessibility-and-assistive-technology/ [4]http://www.accessifyforum.com/ [5]http://www.garrettdimon.com/archives/front-end-architecture-ajax-dom-scripting -- Jan Brasna :: www.alphanumeric.cz | www.janbrasna.com | www.wdnews.net *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
[WSG] ADMIN - hijacking and trimming
Two quick ADMIN notes to all... Problem: thread hijacking thread hijacking is a term used when someone replies to a thread but introduces a totally different topic. Solution: If you have a fresh topic or question you want to post, please post it with its own topic. This benefits everyone, including the poster. Problem: untrimmed posts People sometimes reply to a post and include the entire previous post. This can make it much harder for people to read quickly through posts - especially those who are in digest mode. Solution: trim all unnecessary information before posting back to the list. Remember, every time you trim your replies, you are helping the environment! Have a good day/night all Russ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
[WSG] background overlapping
HiIm designing a website for my university design exhibition and it looks fine in IE (6 i think it is) but in firefox the bunch of links overlap the white content about 5 pixels and it just looks a bit tacky. as far as i can see the code looks ok. http://curtinmovingon.com/Exhibition/?p=9http://www.curtinmovingon.com/Style2.cssIm thinking the problem is the header bit sitting on top of the content divs. I tried placing a clear: both on the next div (container) but it didnt help... Any help would be great. btw if you notice anything else, please let me knowThanks everyone-- JP2 Designshttp://www.jp2designs.com ***List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfmUnsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfmHelp: [EMAIL PROTECTED]***
Re: [WSG] Site Check - Mitra Foundation
On Thu, 02 Nov 2006 08:51:23 +0530, Rahul Gonsalves wrote: Dear All, http://rahulgonsalves.com/mitra/0111/index.html I would appreciate a site check, for this website - built for a non- profit looking to promote alternative energy choices. I'd agree with Rachel and David - a really attractive and appropriate layout and color scheme. You ask about older browsers, but I see problems in IE 7. The text on the horizontal secondary menu (yellow) gets out of whack with the actual link when any zoom is applied (Ctrl +). At the same time, the image transitions get very jerky. There's also a horizontal scroll bar, with the content extending beyond the window borders - but this seems to be a feature of Microsoft's first attempt at a real zoom. My standalone IE 5.5 has problems with the transparency of the logo (but I only just installed IE 7 with these standalones, so that may be a limitation of my setup). IE 5.5 also pops a warning about the script - Line: 4 Char: 1 Error: Object doesn't support this property or method. IE 5.01 is totally borked - most of the content is missing. I don't think I'd worry too much about it though. My site gets visitors on Windows 98, but even they have IE 5.5. Checked on Windows xp SP 2 @ 120 DPI. (Check spelling of title on contact page!) Cordially, David -- *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Background-image misalignment (FAO Robin @ Xplore.net)
Add background-position: left bottom to those images. On Fri, 03 Nov 2006 12:55:16 +1000, Robin @ Xplore.net [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hello, Could anyone please tell me why my background image is displaying below my background image in ie and not in firefox and how can I fix it in ie please? http://training.xtools.co.nz/hbyt/index.htm I have validated both css and html. Thanks in advance Robin -Original Message- From: listdad@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Jan Brasna Sent: Friday, 3 November 2006 3:09 p.m. To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] Articles/reasearch/experience of screen readers I would love any links to articles/archived polemic/research studies/the appropriate list... If anybody here has actual experience of a screen reader, I would be overjoyed to hear from them. Joe Clark or James Edwards aka Brothercake are practicing screen reader testing with various some-technology-enabled sites to test AT behaviour.[1][2] (Plus there's one more on this from Bruce Lawson.[3]) If you're looking for a dedicated forum, you could try AccessifyForum.com [4] ... BTW I use VoiceOver on MacOS X pretty often. The same goes for inverted color scheme or zoomed screen - my eyes simply hurt after a whole day stuck to a display... The issue I see nowadays is where the assistive technology doesn't quite catch up with the recent best-practice (sorry to lean it all towards JS/DOM...). One thing is having an accessible content, however I really believe the AT should be built in the system in such way that it could really handle all the information a sighted user could get, and process it for the screen reader. Derek, I'm talking about non-linear DOM changes or generally event announcement. I think we quite agreed on that with Tomas Caspers and Brothercake. BTW a half year ago I commented on this topic under Garrett's article[5], and maybe made the same mistake of mentioning turning JS off as Derek did some time ago if I'm not mistaken. [1]http://joeclark.org/access/research/ice/iceweb2006-notes.html [2]http://www.sitepoint.com/print/ajax-screenreaders-work [3]http://www.brucelawson.co.uk/index.php/2006/ajax-accessibility-and-assis tive-technology/ [4]http://www.accessifyforum.com/ [5]http://www.garrettdimon.com/archives/front-end-architecture-ajax-dom-scr ipting -- Tyssen Design Web print design services www.tyssendesign.com.au Ph: (07) 3300 3303 Mb: 0405 678 590 *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Site Check - Mitra Foundation
Rachel May wrote: Hi Rahul, It is a really nice site! Did you design and build it? On the home page the use of so many fonts, in particular the ad for the Carbon Campus Neutral Project, is a bit overwhelming. But that is the only thing that I can suggest changing, I really like the colours nice and natural really suit the topic. Cheers, Rachel Hi Rachel, Thank you. I must admit, that I did both design (!) and build the site. I realise that there are quite a few different font faces on the home page. I will see if I can make do with fewer ones - though I rather like that particular font, so perhaps permit me the indulgence. Also thanks to Mr. Capone - and I must admit, that I have disabled javascript too; but it seems to be doing okay without it - it results in a slightly longer wait as the images overlay each other, but I think that is quite acceptable. Thanks! - Rahul. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Additional space between sentences ?
I catch your point Nick, the solution with span class=sentence is
probably the best, but I have to point that using double space after
sentence is completely wrong. It is not “old school”—it is “bad
school”. Jan Tschichold [1] and Robert Bringhurst [2] both wrote in
their books (‘Form of the Book’[3] and ‘The Elements of Typographic
Style’ [4]) about wrong tradition of double space, which came from
typewriter’s age.
Client is client, but this is bad practice to put double space at the
end of the sentence, just remember that or may be explain it to
client. If he would like to look deeper at typography—there are
plenty of places where to look and what to improove, but this is not
the case.
best regards,
Dmitry Baranovskiy
1. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jan_Tschichold
2. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Bringhurst
3. http://www.amazon.com/Form-Book-Essays-Morality-Design/dp/0881790346/
4. http://www.amazon.com/Elements-Typographic-Style-Robert-Bringhurst/
dp/0881792055/
Here is quote from ‘The Elements of Typographic Style’ on
webtypography.net.
“In the nineteenth century, which was a dark and inflationary age in
typography and type design, many compositors were encouraged to stuff
extra space between sentences. Generations of twentieth century
typists were then taught to do the same, by hitting the spacebar
twice after every period [full stop]. Your typing as well as your
typesetting will benefit from unlearning this quaint Victorian habit.
As a general rule, no more than a single space is required after a
period, colon or any other mark of punctuation.”
On 03/11/2006, at 7:47 AM, Nick Roper wrote:
Designer,
Thanks for that. I see what you mean about the space at the end of
the line in para 2, but the content won't be justified on the site
so shouldn't be an issue.
Nick
Designer wrote:
Nick Roper wrote:
Hi Group,
A client has requested that the content on their site has two
spaces between the end of one sentence and the start of the next.
We could do it by using non-breaking spaces, but is there a
better way of achieving this - possibly with CSS?
Thanks in anticipation.
Nick
We had a discussion on this recently, and, although tedious, it
was decided that each sentence was best put in a span
class=sentence wherein this was defined simply as :
.sentence {padding-right: 0.5em; }
All other approaches (non-breaking space, using pre, etc) had
problems, it seems.
You can see a page done like this at:
http://www.rhh.myzen.co.uk/rhh2007/terms/terms.html (this site is
under construction)
You can see one of the pitfalls in paragraph 2: if the text is
justified, you encounter some lines shorter, because of the
padding, but it isn't often, so I decided that it was better to
have a small % incorrect whilst maintaining the spacing throughout
the rest of the page/site.
I have painstakingly done this for the whole of the site - but the
client is delighted! :'( and :-)
HTH,
--
Nick Roper
partner
logical elements
innovative web and internet solutions
zend/php mysql approved partner
email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
phone: +44 1749 676798
www: www.logical.co.uk
skype: nick.roper / +44 20 7870 9587
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Re: [WSG] background overlapping
Try removing the height from #links. On Fri, 03 Nov 2006 13:17:41 +1000, Germ [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Im designing a website for my university design exhibition and it looks fine in IE (6 i think it is) but in firefox the bunch of links overlap the white content about 5 pixels and it just looks a bit tacky. as far as i can see the code looks ok. http://curtinmovingon.com/Exhibition/?p=9 http://www.curtinmovingon.com/Style2.css Im thinking the problem is the header bit sitting on top of the content divs. I tried placing a clear: both on the next div (container) but it didnt help... Any help would be great. btw if you notice anything else, please let me know Thanks everyone -- Tyssen Design Web print design services www.tyssendesign.com.au Ph: (07) 3300 3303 Mb: 0405 678 590 *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] background overlapping
On 3/11/2006, at 4:17 PM, Germ wrote:Im designing a website for my university design exhibition and it looks fine in IE (6 i think it is) but in firefox the bunch of links overlap the white content about 5 pixels and it just looks a bit tacky. as far as i can see the code looks ok. Because you've added a 5px margin at the top of the links div you'll need to subtract the 5px from the height of the div. The links CSS becomes: #links { float: left; width: 350px; height: 207px; margin-top: 5px; background: url(http://www.curtinmovingon.com/images/Background.jpg); }RegardsPeter --Peter Asquith[EMAIL PROTECTED]www.wasabicube.com
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RE: [WSG] Background-image misalignment (FAO Robin @ Xplore.net)
Thanks a lot John, for that quick fix, it's one for the memory bank. cheers Robin -Original Message- From: listdad@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of John Faulds Sent: Friday, 3 November 2006 4:34 p.m. To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] Background-image misalignment (FAO Robin @ Xplore.net) Add background-position: left bottom to those images. On Fri, 03 Nov 2006 12:55:16 +1000, Robin @ Xplore.net [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hello, Could anyone please tell me why my background image is displaying below my background image in ie and not in firefox and how can I fix it in ie please? http://training.xtools.co.nz/hbyt/index.htm I have validated both css and html. Thanks in advance Robin -Original Message- From: listdad@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Jan Brasna Sent: Friday, 3 November 2006 3:09 p.m. To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] Articles/reasearch/experience of screen readers I would love any links to articles/archived polemic/research studies/the appropriate list... If anybody here has actual experience of a screen reader, I would be overjoyed to hear from them. Joe Clark or James Edwards aka Brothercake are practicing screen reader testing with various some-technology-enabled sites to test AT behaviour.[1][2] (Plus there's one more on this from Bruce Lawson.[3]) If you're looking for a dedicated forum, you could try AccessifyForum.com [4] ... BTW I use VoiceOver on MacOS X pretty often. The same goes for inverted color scheme or zoomed screen - my eyes simply hurt after a whole day stuck to a display... The issue I see nowadays is where the assistive technology doesn't quite catch up with the recent best-practice (sorry to lean it all towards JS/DOM...). One thing is having an accessible content, however I really believe the AT should be built in the system in such way that it could really handle all the information a sighted user could get, and process it for the screen reader. Derek, I'm talking about non-linear DOM changes or generally event announcement. I think we quite agreed on that with Tomas Caspers and Brothercake. BTW a half year ago I commented on this topic under Garrett's article[5], and maybe made the same mistake of mentioning turning JS off as Derek did some time ago if I'm not mistaken. [1]http://joeclark.org/access/research/ice/iceweb2006-notes.html [2]http://www.sitepoint.com/print/ajax-screenreaders-work [3]http://www.brucelawson.co.uk/index.php/2006/ajax-accessibility-and-assis tive-technology/ [4]http://www.accessifyforum.com/ [5]http://www.garrettdimon.com/archives/front-end-architecture-ajax-dom-scr ipting -- Tyssen Design Web print design services www.tyssendesign.com.au Ph: (07) 3300 3303 Mb: 0405 678 590 *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
[WSG] IE 7 freezes liquid, jello
Liquid designs, sized with percentage width, and the brilliant Jello layout from Mike Purvis[1] behave in a bizarre manner in IE 7 when page zoom is applied. It's as though the entire page grows or shrinks regardless of the window constraints, throwing a horizontal scrollbar when zoomed in (Ctrl +), and occupying only part of the browser window when zoomed out (Ctrl -). Even Nick Cowie's Elastic fluid design [2] suffers this fate. Does anyone have a solution? Cordially, David -- [1] http://www.positioniseverything.net/articles/jello-expo.html [2] http://nickcowie.com/2006/elastic-fluid-design-some-notes/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] IE 7 freezes liquid, jello
On 11/2/06, David Hucklesby [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Liquid designs, sized with percentage width, and the brilliant Jello layout from Mike Purvis[1] behave in a bizarre manner in IE 7 when page zoom is applied. It's as though the entire page grows or shrinks regardless of the window constraints, throwing a horizontal scrollbar when zoomed in (Ctrl +), and occupying only part of the browser window when zoomed out (Ctrl -). Even Nick Cowie's Elastic fluid design [2] suffers this fate. Does anyone have a solution? Cordially, David -- [1] http://www.positioniseverything.net/articles/jello-expo.html [2] http://nickcowie.com/2006/elastic-fluid-design-some-notes/ Submit a bug report to the Microsoft IE team. Seriously, the page zoom feature is buggy in many ways, and as much as I know we would all LOVE to figure out a way around it, the first step in dealing with the problem is calling it what it is: a bug. -- -- Christian Montoya christianmontoya.com ... portfolio.christianmontoya.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
[WSG] height issue
I have a height issue on http://www.eureka-forklifts.com.au/about-us.cfm
#bd2 {
width: 746px;
position: absolute;
top: 151px;
border-left: 2px solid #7F7F7F;
border-right: 2px solid #7F7F7F;
background: url(../image/secondhand-forklift.jpg) no-repeat left top
#FF;
z-index: 1;
height: 100%;
}
#body-text {
padding: 120px 10px 10px 240px;
height: 100%;
}
All the text is within #body-text and both divs are set to 100% height, but
in Firefox the background color does not complete go to the end of the text,
it puzzles me... The page validates BTW.
Any help is much appreciated.
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Re: [WSG] IE 7 freezes liquid, jello
Liquid designs, sized with percentage width, and the brilliant Jello layout from Mike Purvis[1] behave in a bizarre manner in IE 7 when page zoom is applied. It's as though the entire page grows or shrinks regardless of the window constraints, throwing a horizontal scrollbar when zoomed in (Ctrl +), and occupying only part of the browser window when zoomed out (Ctrl -). Even Nick Cowie's Elastic fluid design [2] suffers this fate. Does anyone have a solution? Hi David: I'm curious how this differs from Opera's zoom. That's the way Opera seems to work to me. I don't even have IE7 yet but have been thinking that its having Zoom will mean a lot more attention paid to dealing with its Zoom. I saw in a screen shot that the Zoom is very out-front, being on the bottom-right of the status bar, so that means more people will be using it. Its a totally different thing than increasing the font-size and I'm assuming there will be more discussion of it, as IE7 becomes more prevalent. Just realized I have my invite from MS to download IE7!! That little update icon has been showing for a bit but I hadn't bothered to check it (I don't have auto updates on). Yes, I guess its time, November 1 is what they said and now it is November 2. Well, it will have to wait, I want to check out the standalone IE6 stuff first. It would be great though if someone who has both IE7 and Opera could tell us how the Zooms are similar or different. Best Donna Cordially, David -- [1] http://www.positioniseverything.net/articles/jello-expo.html [2] http://nickcowie.com/2006/elastic-fluid-design-some-notes/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** -- Donna Jones Portland, Maine 207 772 0266 http://www.westendwebs.com/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] IE 7 freezes liquid, jello
It would be great though if someone who has both IE7 and Opera could tell us how the Zooms are similar or different. IE7 zooms your page right off the right edge of the screen creating a horizontal scrollbar. :/ Opera confines its zoom to within the window. -- Tyssen Design Web print design services www.tyssendesign.com.au Ph: (07) 3300 3303 Mb: 0405 678 590 *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] IE 7 freezes liquid, jello
On 11/3/06, Donna Jones [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Liquid designs, sized with percentage width, and the brilliant Jello layout from Mike Purvis[1] behave in a bizarre manner in IE 7 when page zoom is applied. It's as though the entire page grows or shrinks regardless of the window constraints, throwing a horizontal scrollbar when zoomed in (Ctrl +), and occupying only part of the browser window when zoomed out (Ctrl -). Even Nick Cowie's Elastic fluid design [2] suffers this fate. Does anyone have a solution? Hi David: I'm curious how this differs from Opera's zoom. That's the way Opera seems to work to me. I don't even have IE7 yet but have been thinking that its having Zoom will mean a lot more attention paid to dealing with its Zoom. I saw in a screen shot that the Zoom is very out-front, being on the bottom-right of the status bar, so that means more people will be using it. Its a totally different thing than increasing the font-size and I'm assuming there will be more discussion of it, as IE7 becomes more prevalent. Just realized I have my invite from MS to download IE7!! That little update icon has been showing for a bit but I hadn't bothered to check it (I don't have auto updates on). Yes, I guess its time, November 1 is what they said and now it is November 2. Well, it will have to wait, I want to check out the standalone IE6 stuff first. It would be great though if someone who has both IE7 and Opera could tell us how the Zooms are similar or different. I don't have time to share screenshots, but they both handle pages like: [1] http://www.positioniseverything.net/articles/jello-expo.html somewhat differently, though come to think of it, I wouldn't say it's wrong. Turns out David seems to think that zoom keeps the page within the viewport, which is not how zoom works... both implementations have their issues, and a simple text-resizing feature would probably be helpful for both browsers. -- -- Christian Montoya christianmontoya.com ... portfolio.christianmontoya.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] IE 7 freezes liquid, jello
It would be great though if someone who has both IE7 and Opera could tell us how the Zooms are similar or different. IE7 zooms your page right off the right edge of the screen creating a horizontal scrollbar. :/ Opera confines its zoom to within the window. Are you sure about Opera? My Opera creates a horizontal scrollbar (granted I need to upgrade it) but it seems logical to me that a Zoom would do that (after all its increasing *everything* on the page, text, graphics, everything). If opera confined its zoom to within the window how would one know there was other material available? Or does the latest Opera have a different type of Zoom maybe, a magnifier best Donna -- Donna Jones Portland, Maine 207 772 0266 http://www.westendwebs.com/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] height issue
Hi
Add overflow:hidden; to both styles, I tried it on your site and it
worked (I still use Firefox 1.5)
Cheers
On 11/3/06, Taco Fleur [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
I have a height issue on http://www.eureka-forklifts.com.au/about-us.cfm
#bd2 {
width: 746px;
position: absolute;
top: 151px;
border-left: 2px solid #7F7F7F;
border-right: 2px solid #7F7F7F;
background: url(../image/secondhand-forklift.jpg) no-repeat left top
#FF;
z-index: 1;
height: 100%;
}
#body-text {
padding: 120px 10px 10px 240px;
height: 100%;
}
All the text is within #body-text and both divs are set to 100% height, but
in Firefox the background color does not complete go to the end of the text,
it puzzles me... The page validates BTW.
Any help is much appreciated.
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--
Alex Folch
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
www.alexamine.com
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Re: [WSG] height issue
On Fri, Nov 03, 2006 at 03:21:17PM +1000, Taco Fleur wrote: I have a height issue on http://www.eureka-forklifts.com.au/about-us.cfm All the text is within #body-text and both divs are set to 100% height, but in Firefox the background color does not complete go to the end of the text, it puzzles me... The page validates BTW. So #body-text is 100% of its parent, which is 100% of its parent and so on until you reach the html element - which is 100% of the *viewport*. Scroll beyond the starting viewport and you go outside the region you specified in the height (except its offset because you have content above the element). http://css-discuss.incutio.com/?page=AnyColumnLongest -- David Dorward http://dorward.me.uk *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Articles/reasearch/experience of screen readers
Hello, putting a link at the top of the page, Bruce, What about users with cognitive disibilities? Its a very wide catagorie which includes, simple dyslexia to extreme mental retardation. Apparently these people regularly use the web as a primary imformation source so must be considered. Would they understand the wording 'Go to Menu' etc? Never having the need to use a screen reader its a question I wanted to ask. Kate *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
