[LUTE] Re: Passions
Moin all, i think not for all luteplayers! I tend to wet fingertips. When I tried to play on a friends gut lute, the strings were out of tune in some seconds. I thank god that we have plastic strings! Greetings from germany w. p.s. this email is typed with wolfgangs wet finger tips -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: Arto Wikla [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Gesendet: Donnerstag, 27. Oktober 2005 17:39 An: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Betreff: [LUTE] Re: Passions I think there are 4 alternatives: 1) gut strings, played not so well 2) synthetic strings, played not so well 3) gut strings, played beautifully 4) synthetic strings, played beautifully I choose 3 and 4! :-) Arto To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Gastric distress (gut)
It occurs to me there may be a touch of irony in this concern with being historically correct, We're the artists whose aesthetic we are trying to embody concerned about being historically correct? If not, is not our concern for historical correctness unhistorical? Best to All, Gary Digman -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Gut CD
Matthew Wadsworth makes very beautiful lute cds on all-gut lutes. Listen to his Robert Johnson CD 'Away Delights' on www.magnatunes.com. Isn't Jacob Herringman also on gut? Great player with great sound, anyway. Also on magnatunes. David * David van Ooijen Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Http://home.planet.nl/~d.v.ooijen/ * To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Passions
Dear Wolfgang and all, On Friday 28 October 2005 11:03, Wolfgang Wiehe wrote: i think not for all luteplayers! I tend to wet fingertips. When I tried to play on a friends gut lute, the strings were out of tune in some seconds. I thank god that we have plastic strings! -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: Arto Wikla [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] I think there are 4 alternatives: 1) gut strings, played not so well 2) synthetic strings, played not so well 3) gut strings, played beautifully 4) synthetic strings, played beautifully I choose 3 and 4! :-) Originally I had 8 alternatives in my list: 1) gut strings, played not so well, out of tune 2) synthetic strings, played not so well, out of tune 3) gut strings, played beautifully, out of tune 4) synthetic strings, played beautifully, out of tune 5) gut strings, played not so well, in tune 6) synthetic strings, played not so well, in tune 7) gut strings, played beautifully, in tune 8) synthetic strings, played beautifully, in tune I am not sure if 3 and 4 are possible. Some claim that 5 and 7 are rare occasions, some say 4 and 8 are impossible... In this list I prefer 7 and 8. :-) Arto To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: An epistle from the gut
Vance, Then the purest would be playing on a 300 year old instrument, something few people 300 years ago would have been doing. Craig Craig R. Pierpont Another Era Lutherie www.anotherera.com Vance Wood [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Carl: Should not the purist play only real museum instruments strung with gut? I know this is a stretch but it is none the less absurd in its extremism. Vance Wood. - Yahoo! FareChase - Search multiple travel sites in one click. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Passions
I think it was one of JS Bach's sons who composed a lute piece concerning strings: Chaconne a son gout - Original Message - From: Wolfgang Wiehe [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Dartmouth. Edu lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Friday, October 28, 2005 4:03 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Passions Moin all, i think not for all luteplayers! I tend to wet fingertips. When I tried to play on a friends gut lute, the strings were out of tune in some seconds. I thank god that we have plastic strings! Greetings from germany w. p.s. this email is typed with wolfgangs wet finger tips -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: Arto Wikla [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Gesendet: Donnerstag, 27. Oktober 2005 17:39 An: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Betreff: [LUTE] Re: Passions I think there are 4 alternatives: 1) gut strings, played not so well 2) synthetic strings, played not so well 3) gut strings, played beautifully 4) synthetic strings, played beautifully I choose 3 and 4! :-) Arto To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Strings 'n' things
It should be noted that the momofiliment for nylon strings is not being made exclusively for instrument strings. The price of nylon strings is kept down because the great volume of this stuff is being produced for industrial purposes. What we need is a military use for gut strings. Then miles of the stuff would be produced and the price would drop to $1 a string. Craig Craig R. Pierpont Another Era Lutherie www.anotherera.com Carl Donsbach [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: However, consider that if gut were all that were available, there would be more and larger manufactors. Think of all the guitar string makers that are putting out nothing but nylon - they'd be making gut strings instead, looking for ways to improve them and make them cheaper... quality and durability would go up and the prices would go down. It probably wouldn't be so bad. -Carl Donsbach - Yahoo! FareChase - Search multiple travel sites in one click. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Passions and Guts
I would like to point out that when people use gut strings today they are using modern gut strings, not historically informed gut strings! One common feature of old lute instruction books is the test to see if your strings are true. I don't think this is to see if they are subtly outs - as modern gut may be after playing for a while - this is to see if the string is complete junk! You see, in the old days, a string was made be assembling fibers of gut (from very young sheep) and these fibers have a natural taper, and being a natural substance, have irregularities. With a thick string meant for the low courses there would be many strands of gut fiber, and they would tend to average out, but a treble might be made of three strands of gut, and any irregularities in the strands would make themselves evident. The *Modern Gut* is ground to make it regular, round and smooth and the same diameter all along its length. You can buy a modern gut string and *expect* it to be true, and *expect* it to be the diameter that you want. In the old days you bought a lot of trebles and threw out a lot. The cost of strings was a significant factor back then. Since the grinding process cuts into the fibers that make a strand of gut, modern gut is probably weaker than then the old stuff. But in general the new stuff is truer. And it is unquestionably different! And not historical. Wayne See http://www.daniellarson.com/article.htm for a discussion of how modern gut strings are made. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Gastric distress (gut)
gary digman wrote: It occurs to me there may be a touch of irony in this concern with being historically correct, We're the artists whose aesthetic we are trying to embody concerned about being historically correct? If not, is not our concern for historical correctness unhistorical? Of course it's unhistorical. The question is whether it's musically worthwhile. Historical correctness is just a convenient but inaccurate shorthand for an attempt to play the music as well as possible, which includes trying to understand (and, as nearly as is possible to determine, actually experience) how the people who created it would have expected it to sound. HP To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Gastric distress (gut)
We're the artists whose aesthetic we are trying to embody concerned about being historically correct? I think there is a confusing typo here: we're instead of were. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Strings 'n' things
It should be noted that the momofiliment for nylon strings is not being made exclusively for instrument strings. The price of nylon strings is kept down because the great volume of this stuff is being produced for industrial purposes. I've tried fishing line before. Very bad as a lute string: thuddy tone and untrue. If you use it in an emergency, don't expect much. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Gastric distress (gut)
--- Howard Posner [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: gary digman wrote: is not our concern for historical correctness unhistorical? yes and no: politicians seem to behave as if they're servants of history but artists shouldn't even touch it with a stick. craft is another matter - lots of gastric hot air there. Of course it's unhistorical. The question is whether it's musically worthwhile. Historical correctness is just a convenient but inaccurate shorthand for an attempt to play the music as well as possible, which includes trying to understand (and, as nearly as is possible to determine, actually experience) how the people who created it would have expected it to sound. judging music on whether it's valid or not as music is right and proper but historical correctness, in my humble opinion, is a suspicious, swiss cheesey sentiment - the whole process is too dogmatic and subjective ... too follow the leader. hearing his composition on a squeeze box, as sandy related earlier, would have been an unexpected delight for bach, i'm sure. squeezing anything creative into a correct or historical prospective is worthy of the red guard. chairman ciao and thus i made...a small vihuela from the shell of a creepy crawly... - Don Gonzalo de Guerrero (1512), Historias de la Conquista del Mayab by Fra Joseph of San Buenaventura. go to: http://www.charango.cl/paginas/quieninvento.htm ___ Yahoo! Messenger - NEW crystal clear PC to PC calling worldwide with voicemail http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Gastric distress (gut)
I think the answer to this is absolutely not! I found the collection of essays entitled Authenticity and early Music, edited by Nicholas Kenyon (OUP 1988, reprinted 2002) very illuminating on this issue. Will Crutchfield covers this very point, suggesting that consciousness of historical style is something that only really developed during the 20th century. Richard Taruskin makes the more radical point that 'historically informed performance' is, in fact, a modern style. A book worth reading , even if only to disagree with some of it! Eric Crouch On 28 Oct 2005, at 09:58, gary digman wrote: It occurs to me there may be a touch of irony in this concern with being historically correct, We're the artists whose aesthetic we are trying to embody concerned about being historically correct? If not, is not our concern for historical correctness unhistorical? Best to All, Gary Digman -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: An epistle from the gut
At 04:38 PM 10/27/2005, Vance Wood wrote: So it could be argued that if being a purist is the essence of good Lute practice could it not also be said that playing a modern reproduction Lute using modern wood working tools from computer generated plans under unnatural lighting conditions is also as much an anachronism as using nylon strings? Should not the purist play only real museum instruments strung with gut? The extremist could also argue you would need an audience that is not clad in synthetic fibers in possession of infrequently washed ears that had never been corrupted by Beethoven, Stravinsky, Britney Spears, cell phones, car horns, or digitally recorded music to have a really true and proper early music performance. After hearing Stravinsky, chromaticism in a Dowland fantasy just isn't as spicy as it would have been in is own time. For all the fine scholarly efforts of the finest scholarly types, HIP practice remains hugely speculative. There's nothing wrong with that; pick what rings true and enjoy for whatever features you personally enjoy, purists be damned. I am of the camp that feels players need to justify their interpretive decisions to themselves first and foremost. Playing music passionately and confidently makes for better music, wherever a musician finds his/her convictions. Best, Eugene To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Victoria in BL Add 29246 / 29247 / 31992
Dear David, These are three of the Edward Paston Lute Books. There are five books (see end). That is where I thought you might find works by Victoria. But I looked through my list and could not find him. Perhaps he is there, but not identified. Paston must have had Spanish connections. Some of the rubrics are in Spanish, and the book uses Italian tablature. Now for British music manuscripts, there is an important series that has microfilms of almost everything. Many good libraries will have the series, including (I would expect) the Gemeentemuseum. The three you mention are also in the LSA Microfilm Library. Here is the title of the series: For 24246-7: Music manuscripts from the great English collections, Series IV, Part 2. Polyphonic music before c.1640, Section B (beginning). Brighton, Sussex : Harvester Microform, 1983. Reels 20-29 + 1 guide (77 p.) For 31992: Music manuscripts from the great English collections, Series IV, Part 2. Polyphonic music before c.1640, Section B (continued). Brighton, Sussex : Harvester Microform, 1983. Reels 30-37 + 1 guide (77 p.) Thanks for searching HOLLIS Catalog (http://holliscatalog.harvard.edu/) These are the EDWARD PASTON LUTE BOOKS: London, British Library, Add. 29246, Add. 29247, Add. 31992 London, Royal College of Music, Ms 1964 Tenbury, St. Michael's, Ms. 340 Anne Burns: You may wish to update the LSA Catalogue with the name of the manuscripts. ajn - Original Message - From: LGS-Europe To: Lute net Sent: Friday, October 28, 2005 7:09 AM Subject: [LUTE] Victoria in BL Add 29246 / 29247 / 31992 Does anybody have copies to share of these manuscripts? I'm interested in the pages with music by Victoria arranged for voice and lute/vihuela. In the MSS only the lute/vihuela parts are given. Juan Carlos Rivera used these manuscripts for his cd with counter Carlos Mena (Harmonia Mundi). Great disc! David * David van Ooijen Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Http://home.planet.nl/~d.v.ooijen/ * To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html --
[LUTE] Re: Gut CD
His New York concert was not on an all-gut axe... RT - Original Message - From: LGS-Europe [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: lutelist lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Friday, October 28, 2005 4:55 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Gut CD Matthew Wadsworth makes very beautiful lute cds on all-gut lutes. Listen to his Robert Johnson CD 'Away Delights' on www.magnatunes.com. Isn't Jacob Herringman also on gut? Great player with great sound, anyway. Also on magnatunes. David * David van Ooijen Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Http://home.planet.nl/~d.v.ooijen/ * To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Passions and Guts
Well, Wayne, they might not be historic, but the ones I use are as historically informed as it gets. Talk to Nick Baldock. Years ago I used to engage him, Kuerschner, Larson, Seegerman and others in lengthy discussions about the subject and I am in awe of their commitment to solve as many problems as possible. People have done a lot of research and many preoccupations (like those you have summarized) have been corrected. As you said, there were good and bad strings in the past, but the good strings were defined as true. We can aim at that goal. Good old Chinese silk strings made without modern tools are amazingly true, it just takes more time and skill and is still more expensive. Like with ceramics, they probably discharged 70% of the production as unsatisfactory. Historic gut strings were also ground and polished with stone and other abrasives. They still had, as you described, to throw out unsatisfactory strings. We know what they were after and can head in the same direction. People like Larson have recreated historic manufacturing processes to a degree that borders on experimental archaeology. With stunning results. If less modern lutanist were converted guitarists used to the sound of plastic strings and wire and/or too thrifty to spend money on their equipment, or insisting to play lute with wet finger tips or in the shower, string makers could sell more gut strings and the prices would drop. People spent even more money on gut strings in the old days than we do today; still, I agree, we are still far from having unveiled all the secrets of ancient string making, especially as far as basses are concerned. Peruffo's loaded ones work fine (listen to Lindberg's Dowland), but you have to throw out many and they take very long to settle (at least the ones I ordered some years ago; meanwhile they have settled and make rather acceptable basses on my 8c). That renders them a very awkward solution. With gimped strings I am not quite happy either. Silk didn't work for me (on the renaissance lutes, I use silk strings on my Timurid lute and the tanbur). Loaded silk would be a very promising concept, but nobody dares to invest in such a project, with a dwindling market, as so many early musicians are quite happy with their nylons and just seeking excuses for not going into more authentic equipment. Seegerman's *no-tension* theory is a bit extreme, but regular gut strings are certainly too thick at realistic tension on an 8c with less then 70cm string stop (they work perfectly on my Maler 6c-basslute (octave-strung) and proved very convincing on at least one of Barber/Harris' Tieffenbrucker 6c tenors) Yet I don't see in what way all this could serve as an excuse to use even less authentic strings? The best gut strings available today might not be quite as good as the ones Queen Elizabeth I used, but they will have to do until the real thing comes along... I am not a fanatic like the presidents of Iran or the US, I just want good strings for my lutes, to spend peaceful nights listening to subtle sounds removed from the vulgar clamour of modern life! Best wishes, danyel - Original Message - From: Wayne Cripps [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Friday, October 28, 2005 2:06 PM Subject: [LUTE] Passions and Guts I would like to point out that when people use gut strings today they are using modern gut strings, not historically informed gut strings! One common feature of old lute instruction books is the test to see if your strings are true. I don't think this is to see if they are subtly outs - as modern gut may be after playing for a while - this is to see if the string is complete junk! You see, in the old days, a string was made be assembling fibers of gut (from very young sheep) and these fibers have a natural taper, and being a natural substance, have irregularities. With a thick string meant for the low courses there would be many strands of gut fiber, and they would tend to average out, but a treble might be made of three strands of gut, and any irregularities in the strands would make themselves evident. The *Modern Gut* is ground to make it regular, round and smooth and the same diameter all along its length. You can buy a modern gut string and *expect* it to be true, and *expect* it to be the diameter that you want. In the old days you bought a lot of trebles and threw out a lot. The cost of strings was a significant factor back then. Since the grinding process cuts into the fibers that make a strand of gut, modern gut is probably weaker than then the old stuff. But in general the new stuff is truer. And it is unquestionably different! And not historical. Wayne To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Strings 'n' things
At 11:30 AM 10/28/2005, Herbert Ward wrote: I've tried fishing line before. Very bad as a lute string: thuddy tone and untrue. If you use it in an emergency, don't expect much. I have used it in an emergency too, and it strikes me as akin to any other nylon. I think, as in nylon monofilaments concocted with the intent to be musical instrument strings, you tend to get what you pay for. If you buy quality fishing line of a respected brand, it should be of relatively consistent quality and of relatively true diameter corresponding to that printed on the package. If you buy K-Mart's (a US discount department store) house brand, you're likely to get stretchy, low-quality, untrue junk. I also often buy fishing line with the intent to catch fish, but that's talk for a different forum. Eugene To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Strings 'n' things
I'm new to lute-playing (and didn't come to it from guitar, but from playing early music on winds) so have learned a great deal from this discussion strings - thanks. Could any of you give some advice about where to buy strings, of gut or of nylon? Who makes the best? Who gives the best value for money? Any warnings? thanks in advance, Katherine Davies --- Eugene C. Braig IV [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: At 11:30 AM 10/28/2005, Herbert Ward wrote: I've tried fishing line before. Very bad as a lute string: thuddy tone and untrue. If you use it in an emergency, don't expect much. I have used it in an emergency too, and it strikes me as akin to any other nylon. I think, as in nylon monofilaments concocted with the intent to be musical instrument strings, you tend to get what you pay for. If you buy quality fishing line of a respected brand, it should be of relatively consistent quality and of relatively true diameter corresponding to that printed on the package. If you buy K-Mart's (a US discount department store) house brand, you're likely to get stretchy, low-quality, untrue junk. I also often buy fishing line with the intent to catch fish, but that's talk for a different forum. Eugene To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Gastric distress (gut)
Thank you for the correction, Herbert. Gary - Original Message - From: Herbert Ward [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Friday, October 28, 2005 8:15 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Gastric distress (gut) We're the artists whose aesthetic we are trying to embody concerned about being historically correct? I think there is a confusing typo here: we're instead of were. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.362 / Virus Database: 267.12.5/150 - Release Date: 10/27/2005
[LUTE] Re: Strings 'n' things
I recall talking to Julian Bream after a concert 25 years ago, and I asked what brand of strings he uses. He replied, I use fishing line. Actually, Toyohiko Satoh was the first tot use carbon strings in or around 1986. They were brought to his attention, in that it came on spools it was a form of fishing line, made in Japan. I think the brand name was Seaguar. ed That's the brand I'm using. RT At 10:30 AM 10/28/2005 -0500, Herbert Ward wrote: It should be noted that the momofiliment for nylon strings is not being made exclusively for instrument strings. The price of nylon strings is kept down because the great volume of this stuff is being produced for industrial purposes. I've tried fishing line before. Very bad as a lute string: thuddy tone and untrue. If you use it in an emergency, don't expect much. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html Edward Martin 2817 East 2nd Street Duluth, Minnesota 55812 e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] voice: (218) 728-1202
[LUTE] Re: Gastric distress (gut)
It seems to me whether something is musically worthwhile or not is largely subjective, i.e. worthwhile to whom. Hence, the question of whether to use gut or synthetics is a personal decision and the question of validity is mute. Danyel likes gut and others like synthetics for whatever reasons. Play on. Gary - Original Message - From: Howard Posner [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: lutelist lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Friday, October 28, 2005 8:03 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Gastric distress (gut) gary digman wrote: It occurs to me there may be a touch of irony in this concern with being historically correct, We're the artists whose aesthetic we are trying to embody concerned about being historically correct? If not, is not our concern for historical correctness unhistorical? Of course it's unhistorical. The question is whether it's musically worthwhile. Historical correctness is just a convenient but inaccurate shorthand for an attempt to play the music as well as possible, which includes trying to understand (and, as nearly as is possible to determine, actually experience) how the people who created it would have expected it to sound. HP To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.362 / Virus Database: 267.12.5/150 - Release Date: 10/27/2005
[LUTE] Re: Strings 'n' things
aquila corde if you're in the us: http://www.aquilausa.com/ aquila corde if you're in europe: http://www.aquilacorde.com/ they make strings for a wide variety of musical instruments from a dense nylon called nylgut - a synthetic alternative to gut. some think they're fabulous, others less so - check the archives for past postings: http://www.mail-archive.com/vihuela%40cs.dartmouth.edu/ http://www.mail-archive.com/lute%40cs.dartmouth.edu/ - bill --- Katherine Davies [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'm new to lute-playing (and didn't come to it from guitar, but from playing early music on winds) so have learned a great deal from this discussion strings - thanks. Could any of you give some advice about where to buy strings, of gut or of nylon? Who makes the best? Who gives the best value for money? Any warnings? thanks in advance, Katherine Davies --- Eugene C. Braig IV [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: At 11:30 AM 10/28/2005, Herbert Ward wrote: I've tried fishing line before. Very bad as a lute string: thuddy tone and untrue. If you use it in an emergency, don't expect much. I have used it in an emergency too, and it strikes me as akin to any other nylon. I think, as in nylon monofilaments concocted with the intent to be musical instrument strings, you tend to get what you pay for. If you buy quality fishing line of a respected brand, it should be of relatively consistent quality and of relatively true diameter corresponding to that printed on the package. If you buy K-Mart's (a US discount department store) house brand, you're likely to get stretchy, low-quality, untrue junk. I also often buy fishing line with the intent to catch fish, but that's talk for a different forum. Eugene To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html ___ Yahoo! Messenger - NEW crystal clear PC to PC calling worldwide with voicemail http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com
[LUTE] Re: Gastric distress (gut)
Yes, rock on! I'm actually more interested in the audience experience at this point and therefore use nylon. If I was only playing for very small groups (under 20) in very ambient spaces I'd probably switch to gut or have a lute only in gut for that purpose. But nylon is more dependable, louder and cheaper. There are better spaces to play in Europe, but many of the halls in America just swallow up the lute or are too large. To this end, I have almost perfected a new way to amplify the lute which requries no internal surgery and is not noticeable unless you are very close up. Oh, and it's wireless so I can jump off of my Marshall stack (it really is wireless)! I've also starting working on an arrangement of Eruption for 10c lute to Christen the new setup (seriously). Can you tell the cold weather is already getting to me? - Chris --- gary digman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It seems to me whether something is musically worthwhile or not is largely subjective, i.e. worthwhile to whom. Hence, the question of whether to use gut or synthetics is a personal decision and the question of validity is mute. Danyel likes gut and others like synthetics for whatever reasons. Play on. Gary - Original Message - From: Howard Posner [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: lutelist lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Friday, October 28, 2005 8:03 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Gastric distress (gut) gary digman wrote: It occurs to me there may be a touch of irony in this concern with being historically correct, We're the artists whose aesthetic we are trying to embody concerned about being historically correct? If not, is not our concern for historical correctness unhistorical? Of course it's unhistorical. The question is whether it's musically worthwhile. Historical correctness is just a convenient but inaccurate shorthand for an attempt to play the music as well as possible, which includes trying to understand (and, as nearly as is possible to determine, actually experience) how the people who created it would have expected it to sound. HP To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.362 / Virus Database: 267.12.5/150 - Release Date: 10/27/2005 - Christopher Schaub Lute Voice web: http://www.christopherschaub.com email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[LUTE] student lutes (Re: Who wants to sell New Boy a lute?)
Right; But do you really want a student lute comparable to the student or band instruments made of plastic and sold at Wal-Mart? Or even the basic models of brands like Buffet or Selmer, carelessly assembled and made of terrible materials in China? Shouldn't we rather be glad to play an instrument that is not heard everywhere and strummed in bands and school orchestras? Even the exposure to the lute-class at the local conservatory with their revolting plastic-strung East German fake-lutes is so devastating that it would probably spoil my fondness for the lute if I couldn't avoid it. Best wishes, danyel - Original Message - From: Robert Clair [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Lute List lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Thursday, October 27, 2005 10:12 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Who wants to sell New Boy a lute? I don't think lutes from good makers are particularly expensive (yes I mean $3K-$4K and up). The problem with the lute is that, because of the nature of the instrument and the low demand, there isn't the equivalent of the serviceable student model that is commonly available for guitar or band instruments. ...Bob To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: student lutes (Re: Who wants to sell New Boy a lute?)
3D danyel [EMAIL PROTECTED]= /B=20 10/29/2005 03:42 AM ZE2 = /TD 3D To 3D Lute = List lute@cs.dartmouth.edu 3D cc 3D 3D bcc 3D 3D Subject = ; 3D [LUTE]= student lutes (Re: Who wants to sell New Boy a lute?) 3D3D Really, this is getting to be too much. Why should playing lute be= an elite club? I am certainly not glad that more young people don't = play lute, and I dream of a world in which I could take a theorbo on the su= bway without being asked about it a million times. As probably the youngest person on this list, maybe I can offer a differ= ent perspective. When I was a guitarist in conservatory I happened to= go see Orfeo, and fell in love with the music. I didn't care what ma= terial the theorbo was strung with (it was gut basses and nylgut stopped st= rings). I had to get a lute. Being just a student, there's no way I could have afforded anything in t= he price range you are suggesting. I eventually (after borrowing for = several months) got a fifteen year old eight-course by Larry Brown for $800= . It was strung all in plastic with wound basses. That's all = you need to play renaissance music. It only took a little time for me= to give up guitar and play lute full-time. I have since been able to play other lutes thanks to some very generous = loans of instruments, but I know my story is the usual one. Young pro= fessional musicians often are in no position to buy and string lutes of the= quality you claim is necessary for enjoyment. Would you deny them th= e opportunity of taking up the lute because of financial concerns? Ju= st think of the debt they accrue just by attending a conservatory in the St= ates; and unlike pre-meds, they often have no assurance they will be able t= o pay the money back. Why do they do it? Because like all of yo= u (presumably) they have discovered something in early music that they coul= d not live without. That's all that really matters; whether it be on = a cheap old ahistorical lute or an ultra-correct all-gut one, lute music is= great music which still does not have enough people playing it. Any = concern about equipment, though it is important, is secondary (being extram= usical) to the fundamental concern about and love for the music. The function of this list should be to disseminate information about lut= e music, not to insult other readers. Did anyone ever answer Humphrey= 's question? If you want a cheap, decent lute, get in touch with Ed G= reenhood of Baltimore. I think his email is [EMAIL PROTECTED] Charlie Right; But do you really want a student lute comparable = to the student or band instruments made of plastic and sold= at Wal-Mart? Or even the basic models of brands like Buffet or= Selmer, carelessly assembled and made of terrible materials in= China? Shouldn't we rather be glad to play an instrument that = is not heard everywhere and strummed in bands and school orchestras? Eventhe exposure to the lute-class at the local conservatory with th= eir revolting plastic-strung East German fake-lutes is so devas= tating that it would probably spoil my fondness for the lute if= I couldn't avoid it. Best wishes, danyel To get on or off this list see list information at = A href=3Dhttp://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html;http://ww= w.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html = References 1. 3Dmailto:grunhut=
[LUTE] Re: An epistle from the gut
Demonstrating absurdity by being absurd? You're right it is a conundrum no matter how you figure it. Vance Wood. - Original Message - From: Craig Robert Pierpont [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: lute list lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Friday, October 28, 2005 11:51 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: An epistle from the gut Vance, Then the purest would be playing on a 300 year old instrument, something few people 300 years ago would have been doing. Craig Craig R. Pierpont Another Era Lutherie www.anotherera.com Vance Wood [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Carl: Should not the purist play only real museum instruments strung with gut? I know this is a stretch but it is none the less absurd in its extremism. Vance Wood. - Yahoo! FareChase - Search multiple travel sites in one click. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Passions and Guts
The *Modern Gut* is ground to make it regular, round and smooth and the same diameter all along its length. Some string makers do that, yes. Others don't. Dan Larson for example has a long cutting table and cuts the raw material by hand, following the fibers of the gut. So his trebles don't break so quickly, as the fibres are not cut through. Perhaps that's why he uses less glue (? I think), which in turn make the string fray more. Kürschner gets his guts pre-cut, as I understand it, but correct me if I'm wrong, and to make up for the broken fibres he uses more glue or whatever it is to hold the string together. I'm sure I've got all the details wrong here, but the cutting table and cutting the gut by hand is true at least. David To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Strings 'n' things
There are emergencies and then there are necessities. My flat back was designed too with too long a VL for a G tuning of the chanterelle, a fact that the kit maker has corrected in his new version (due to my input). You all know that gut has a lower breaking pitch (given length) than the synthetics, but there is also a small difference with the Nylgut, the nylon and the fishing line - and in that order. I can tune to F with Nylgut, and F# with musical nylon - but I can hold G with fishing line. Among those latter three it is just a small difference in the tensile strength/density combination. Not the best solution, the better would be to have an instrument of the right length for the desired tuning (and I'm building that now). Best, Jon To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: An epistle from the gut
I yet have difficulty understanding the purist as I'm not sure how one defines what is pure. Yes we can attempt to duplicate the several string formats of old, and we can duplicate the instrument from museum pieces (but never exactly how they sounded together). But can we duplicate the tempi of the tunes? I use that as an obvious problem in purism. There is no metronome setting in the tab, nor can we be sure just how fast a renaissance dance was (unless we want to assume that Hollywood has the Gavotte right in its period pieces). Timing, emphasis and the sense of the tune - these we have to guess. Educated guesses certainly, but still guesses. Nor can we say how the old masters would have played had they some of our modern advantages. Would the old lutenist have turned his nose up at amplification if it allowed him to play above the sounds of the feast? I believe in being as true to the sense of the assumed sound as one can be, but that includes a sense of the song - and I'm sure the old boys didn't play exactly as written. Best, Jon To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
