[LUTE] Re: So...i cant take the lute with me :-(
There is some Caccini here apparently: HOVE, Joachim van den, 1567-1620 Lautenbuch, Leiden 1615, Gesamtfaksimile / Complete Facsimile. Faksimile nach der Lautenhandschrift in der Staatsbibliothek Berlin Signatur: Mus. ms. autogr. Hove 1. Kommentar: Ralf Jarchow. Glinde, 2006. (Contents: Ballard, Bataille, Caccini, J. Dowland, D. M. Ferrabosco, Gastoldi, Hove, Praetorius, Hagenbach, Lasso, Robinson, Saman, A. Striggio, Vallet) - Original Message - From: Omer katzir [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Wednesday, November 28, 2007 6:32 PM Subject: [LUTE] So...i cant take the lute with me :-( And for three days (27-29.12) i'm going to be alone in brussels. Any one knows about good lute concerts there in those dates? damn... I'm going to miss my precious Francesca. And if i mentioned her name... any one knows where i can find tabs for Francesca Caccini works? (yes, my lute name is after her) Thank you, good night and may the cat bless you all! To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE-BUILDER] Re: Lute - Baroque Guitar
I studied building with Lundeberg for 5 years and found his methods sound and practical, if a bit fussy. Since then experience has tempered the fussy aspects and smoothed my own techniques to be not quite so anal. It is, in all, a more comfortable way to work. I've not audited the Van Edwards method but reckon that any method which gives a student the confidence to roll up his sleeves and cut wood is a good thing. Lundeberg's book is merely the intellectual approach and should, like a good menudo recipe, be taken as a guide line. Bob, for instance, didn't use enough glue in many cases in the interest of neatness. It's not neat when a seam opens after a few years so I make certain that my joints are fully saturated with glue. You can always wipe it off. The final outcome is just as tidy. Start cutting wood and you will learn. Rob Dorsey http://RobDorsey.com -Original Message- From: Jon Murphy [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, December 02, 2007 1:38 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; 'Troy Wheeler'; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [LUTE-BUILDER] Re: Lute - Baroque Guitar Troy, You have two good suggestions from Din and Rob. My lute is temporarily on hold for medical reasons, but I invested in both the Lundberg book Historical Lute Construction and van Edwards CD-ROM. For Din, I only have two and a half years into my lute. A stroke two years ago left me with the mold made, and the ribs shaved to thickness. Like you it is a matter of belief - I'm scared to make that next step of forming and shaping the ribs over the mold. Once I get that done I think the rest will go quickly. The stroke is no longer relevant, now it is a matter of the guts to step into the making of the body. Troy, if you were to choose to buy one of the suggested instructionals I'd spend the extra and go with David van Edwards CD-ROM - it is in PDF format and you can print out the pages as you go along to keep them by your workplace. The Lundberg book is excellent, but not quite as step by step, yet a good reference for the experienced builder of stringed instruments. I'm not unhappy to have both, but were I to do it over again I'd go with van Edwards for my first try (I got Lundberg before I heard of van Edwards). Best, Jon To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Swanneck
On Dec 2, 2007, at 4:40 AM, Nigel Solomon wrote: Admitedly I was using wound strings (has anybody ever tried keeping 24 gut strings in tune successfully for the time needed to play a single Weiss courante?). That is what I find interesting though. Long gut strings seem to be much more stable in terms of keeping in tune (and getting them there). I like the idea of long guts in the basses of a Jauch and then nylgut and KF for the fingerboard strings. BTW, I changed the 5th course copper wound on my archlute to the new KF G strings. Wonderful sound and very close in appearance and thunk to gut. DS To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Swanneck
Daniel Shoskes wrote: On Dec 2, 2007, at 4:40 AM, Nigel Solomon wrote: Admitedly I was using wound strings (has anybody ever tried keeping 24 gut strings in tune successfully for the time needed to play a single Weiss courante?). That is what I find interesting though. Long gut strings seem to be much more stable in terms of keeping in tune (and getting them there). I like the idea of long guts in the basses of a Jauch and then nylgut and KF for the fingerboard strings. BTW, I changed the 5th course copper wound on my archlute to the new KF G strings. Wonderful sound and very close in appearance and thunk to gut. DS --- Orange vous informe que cet e-mail a ete controle par l'anti-virus mail. Aucun virus connu a ce jour par nos services n'a ete detecte. I find that the thicker the gut string, the more stable the tuning. On my theorbo diapasons (170cm) gut seems relatively stable, much more so than on the fingeboard strings where the thinnest is 0.54. Still, I defy anyone to tell me whether the theorbo is gut or nylgut strung in a concert with other instruments and singers. I think maybe ones audience might notice the difference in your living room sitting around the fire, perhaps the ideal concert conditions, you might say. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Swanneck
Yes, Nigel, I do it all the time. In fact, I had a concert in humid August this year, in which I performed on a Scottich mandour, an 11 course, and a 13 course bass rider lute. All are in gut (that is all I have had for baroque lutes for the past 12 years), and I did not have to adjust one single peg to re-tune. The only time I have tuning trouble is when the climate is changed during performance (i.e. someone turns off air conditioner, etc) The gut these days is so much more stable than the gut of some years ago. I actually find it easier to deal with, as compared to wound strings. ed At 10:40 AM 12/2/2007 +0100, Nigel Solomon wrote: (has anybody ever tried keeping 24 gut strings in tune successfully for the time needed to play a single Weiss courante?). Edward Martin 2817 East 2nd Street Duluth, Minnesota 55812 e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] voice: (218) 728-1202 To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Swanneck
Why not stringing it all in gut? ed At 08:36 AM 12/2/2007 -0500, Daniel Shoskes wrote: That is what I find interesting though. Long gut strings seem to be much more stable in terms of keeping in tune (and getting them there). I like the idea of long guts in the basses of a Jauch and then nylgut and KF for the fingerboard strings. Edward Martin 2817 East 2nd Street Duluth, Minnesota 55812 e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] voice: (218) 728-1202 To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Piccinini notation query
For me the simple answer is: -- three quick note / one long / three quick note / one long / etc... Unless sombody knows another source with a more precise notation of the piece, there is no authoritative solution to the question. To my knowledge that generation of lutenists had no way to notate triplets, therefore several fragments uncleare rythmically may come from that problem (Kapsperger is full of such mad measures!). In the end I'd feel free to play as I like -- this is simple music with much space for ''ornamentation'', also rythmical. Just personal solution. Best, Jurek ___ On 2007-12-02, at 15:25, Rob wrote: What do you think Piccinini is indicating here? http://www.rmguitar.info/temp.htm Bar 2 and similar: minim.triplet semiquavers.crotchet? Rob MacKillop www.rmguitar.info To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Piccinini notation query
I think the dot on the left of the crotchet means that it takes some value from the preceding tactus. It could be: minim - 3semiquavers - 1semiquaver tied to the crotchet. or: minim - semiquavers triplet - dotted crotchet. The first seems to sound more natural. Il giorno 02/dic/07, alle ore 15:25, Rob ha scritto: What do you think Piccinini is indicating here? http://www.rmguitar.info/temp.htm Bar 2 and similar: minim.triplet semiquavers.crotchet? Rob MacKillop www.rmguitar.info -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Swanneck
Edward Martin wrote: Yes, Nigel, I do it all the time. In fact, I had a concert in humid August this year, in which I performed on a Scottich mandour, an 11 course, and a 13 course bass rider lute. All are in gut (that is all I have had for baroque lutes for the past 12 years), and I did not have to adjust one single peg to re-tune. The only time I have tuning trouble is when the climate is changed during performance (i.e. someone turns off air conditioner, etc) The gut these days is so much more stable than the gut of some years ago. I actually find it easier to deal with, as compared to wound strings. ed At 10:40 AM 12/2/2007 +0100, Nigel Solomon wrote: (has anybody ever tried keeping 24 gut strings in tune successfully for the time needed to play a single Weiss courante?). Edward Martin 2817 East 2nd Street Duluth, Minnesota 55812 e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] voice: (218) 728-1202 --- Orange vous informe que cet e-mail a ete controle par l'anti-virus mail. Aucun virus connu a ce jour par nos services n'a ete detecte. Oh well, that told me! I guess you have to get to the venue hours before though to enable the instruments to adjust to the humidity. I am not flying a flag for synthetic strings, just that on the whole they are a little more reliable (particularly Pyramid wound which, despite sounding a bit tinny at first, just don't budge whatever the weather, etc. On my theorbo I have one wound Pyramid, the 6th (A) and I use it as a reference for keeping all the other strings in tune throughout the concert) To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Swanneck
Ed, as you know I have gone through phases of experimentation with gut on my barqoue lutes. Even though we both live in cold climes, I have not been successful keeping gut easily in tune, at least not on my bass rider. With my limited time to practice, it is simply not possible to spend a good chunk of time tuning. Also, and I know this is sacrilege, I don't find the sound difference to be worth it to me. I think that gut requires a different right hand technique to sound at it's best and too often I have heard gut played poorly with I suppose the implicit message being well it's on gut, so it must sound great and be authentic. OTOH, I'm not criticizing anyone who spends the time and effort to make a fully gut strung instrument sound great and I've heard that many times too (eg. Earl Christy at LSA, the recent luteduo videos and of course YOU Ed). I'm not a recording or performance artist and even with the occasional amateur concert or youtube video I'm pretty much playing for my own enjoyment, so this is what has worked for me so far. Having said that, I am interested in new developments in gut technology and always willing to try something new, once it has been vetted by the gut experts on the cutting edge. What has peaked my interest again is this swan neck discussion. I love the volume and balance of the Jauch but don't want to devote my RH thumb to damping every bass I strike. That's why the idea of a Jauch with long thick gut basses and best current technology trebles is appealing. For crying out loud, I'm down to only 4 instruments at the moment! Danny www.dshoskes.com www.youtube.com/kidneykutter On Dec 2, 2007, at 9:41 AM, Edward Martin wrote: Why not stringing it all in gut? ed At 08:36 AM 12/2/2007 -0500, Daniel Shoskes wrote: That is what I find interesting though. Long gut strings seem to be much more stable in terms of keeping in tune (and getting them there). I like the idea of long guts in the basses of a Jauch and then nylgut and KF for the fingerboard strings. Edward Martin 2817 East 2nd Street Duluth, Minnesota 55812 e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] voice: (218) 728-1202 To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] LUTE Swanneck Weiss?
One thing I haven't seen anyone address re the swanneck- fingered accidentals on courses 9 - 11. How are you folks dealing with these situations? Up an octave, or eliminate those pieces from your repertoire? Dan -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Swanneck + loaded strings
Nigel According to Mimmo Peruffo, his new loaded strings would be more stable to temperature and humidity influences even than synthetics. I imagine this could be due to the loading by a sort of tanning process. Perhaps the oxide? covering protects the string. A lutist neighbour of mine had the possibility of actually trying out these strings on Mimmo Peruffo's lute in a small room at the Greenwich meeting, in England, for over an hour and with only two other persons present. Obviously the lute was completely strung in Aquila gut, but the middle strings were in Venice, the basses down to 11c were loaded, and the basses down to 13c were open wound Mest types. First, he was struck by the fact that the change from bass to middle, and to treble was so exceptionally smooth. This was a stated aim of MP in a message he sent to us; but this lutist felt he had never heard a lute with such a smooth change. He was a little surprised at the quality of the sound, as the lute itself had a crack in the soundboard. However, he tells me the basses really had him amazed. He says it might not be noticeable when you change one string, but when you have all loaded gut basses + Mest, there is a completely different response to the instrument. It is as though there is a slight delay and then a sudden development and then a rapid decay, (perhaps, like a consonant followed by a vowel), so that there is absolutely no overhang like with wirewounds. Actually, that sounds much like I have always found with gut basses; but on previous occasions, he told me, he had found gut basses just too thick, and unresponsive, these were different, he clained. The loaded strings must be thinner, of course. He said the sound is in some way more earthy with more texture. I think that means something like terroir for a wine, if you know what I mean. The whole sound seemed so well articulated, he said. Now, I do hope those strings will soon become available, but I certainly would not want to put Mimmo Peruffo under any pressure. I am sure his time (and my patience) is an essential ingredient, just like the production of a top wine … Best regards Anthony PS I am not myself down rating any other string types. I am not too bothered by thickish strings and I like Larson gimped. However, the more variation there is in gut strings the more chance there will be for finding the right strings for a particular lute. I am happy with Venice strings on my Gerle, because they allowed me to remove a certain bass heaviness, probably due to the plummy Gerle shape (well actually that is what the sound was like, plummy mid-bass). It is not clear that would be what you are looking for on a different shaped lute. Le 2 déc. 07 à 16:46, Nigel Solomon a écrit : Edward Martin wrote: Yes, Nigel, I do it all the time. In fact, I had a concert in humid August this year, in which I performed on a Scottich mandour, an 11 course, and a 13 course bass rider lute. All are in gut (that is all I have had for baroque lutes for the past 12 years), and I did not have to adjust one single peg to re-tune. The only time I have tuning trouble is when the climate is changed during performance (i.e. someone turns off air conditioner, etc) The gut these days is so much more stable than the gut of some years ago. I actually find it easier to deal with, as compared to wound strings. ed At 10:40 AM 12/2/2007 +0100, Nigel Solomon wrote: (has anybody ever tried keeping 24 gut strings in tune successfully for the time needed to play a single Weiss courante?). Edward Martin 2817 East 2nd Street Duluth, Minnesota 55812 e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] voice: (218) 728-1202 - -- Orange vous informe que cet e-mail a ete controle par l'anti- virus mail. Aucun virus connu a ce jour par nos services n'a ete detecte. Oh well, that told me! I guess you have to get to the venue hours before though to enable the instruments to adjust to the humidity. I am not flying a flag for synthetic strings, just that on the whole they are a little more reliable (particularly Pyramid wound which, despite sounding a bit tinny at first, just don't budge whatever the weather, etc. On my theorbo I have one wound Pyramid, the 6th (A) and I use it as a reference for keeping all the other strings in tune throughout the concert) To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: OT- video
Simple but time consuming: play the video and capture the sound with a program like Audio Hijack Pro. Can then put the two together in Garageband or Final Cut. DS On Dec 2, 2007, at 1:21 PM, Roman Turovsky wrote: Dear Collective Wisdom, I am trying to get the video of our last concert from its DVD to my HD so I could get it into FinalCutPro for editing. I can import the video via MediaFork, MacTheRipper and a couple of other pgms, but all of them mangle the audio track. Are there any expert opinions how to accomplish this? I have both a Mac and a PC. RT To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE-BUILDER] Re: Lute - Baroque Guitar
I agree. The best way to learn how to make a lute is to make a lute. And then make another. I'm on my fifth, and looking back at the previous four I can see a steady progression as I got comfortable with the process and developed my skills. I'm hoping I'll see more of that progression when I'm done with the fifth one. And I also agree about the glue. I had problems with the first three lutes with the bridge coming off. I got pretty good at re-attaching them, but that's not exactly something to be proud of. On the fourth, I finally used the method that David Van Edwards apparently advocates (I've heard this from others, not from DVE) and deliberately applied and removed the bridge a couple of times to build up a saturated joint. This one is holding nicely. And as Rob says, you can always remove the excess, especially if it's still in the jello phase. Tim Motz On Dec 2, 2007, at 8:35 AM, Rob Dorsey wrote: I studied building with Lundeberg for 5 years and found his methods sound and practical, if a bit fussy. Since then experience has tempered the fussy aspects and smoothed my own techniques to be not quite so anal. It is, in all, a more comfortable way to work. I've not audited the Van Edwards method but reckon that any method which gives a student the confidence to roll up his sleeves and cut wood is a good thing. Lundeberg's book is merely the intellectual approach and should, like a good menudo recipe, be taken as a guide line. Bob, for instance, didn't use enough glue in many cases in the interest of neatness. It's not neat when a seam opens after a few years so I make certain that my joints are fully saturated with glue. You can always wipe it off. The final outcome is just as tidy. Start cutting wood and you will learn. Rob Dorsey http://RobDorsey.com -Original Message- From: Jon Murphy [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, December 02, 2007 1:38 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; 'Troy Wheeler'; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [LUTE-BUILDER] Re: Lute - Baroque Guitar Troy, You have two good suggestions from Din and Rob. My lute is temporarily on hold for medical reasons, but I invested in both the Lundberg book Historical Lute Construction and van Edwards CD-ROM. For Din, I only have two and a half years into my lute. A stroke two years ago left me with the mold made, and the ribs shaved to thickness. Like you it is a matter of belief - I'm scared to make that next step of forming and shaping the ribs over the mold. Once I get that done I think the rest will go quickly. The stroke is no longer relevant, now it is a matter of the guts to step into the making of the body. Troy, if you were to choose to buy one of the suggested instructionals I'd spend the extra and go with David van Edwards CD-ROM - it is in PDF format and you can print out the pages as you go along to keep them by your workplace. The Lundberg book is excellent, but not quite as step by step, yet a good reference for the experienced builder of stringed instruments. I'm not unhappy to have both, but were I to do it over again I'd go with van Edwards for my first try (I got Lundberg before I heard of van Edwards). Best, Jon To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Narvey article online/Dm continuo in Italy
Also associated with Francesco Conti in Vienna was Camilla de Rossi. A few years ago I looked at some of her oratorios (publ. ClarNan Editions), and they often feature prominent part (in pitch notation) for obbligato theorbo, played doubtlessly by Conti, the Kapellmeister. The sinfonia for one of the oratorios is (in effect) a lute concerto. I heard it played on guitar on a CD that included the recently discovered Tailleferre concerto for two guitars (an excellent work, although the guitars get lost in the orchestral texture). ==AJN Boston, Mass. This week's free download from Classical Music Library: Mahler: Symphony No. 5 Go to my web page: http://mysite.verizon.net/arthurjness/ For some free scores, go to: http://mysite.verizon.net/vzepq31c/arthurjnesslutescores/ - Original Message - From: Jerzy Zak [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Barocklautenliste Lutelist' [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, November 27, 2007 6:07 PM Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Narvey article online/Dm continuo in Italy Dear Taco, On 2007-11-27, at 13:12, Taco Walstra wrote: On Monday 26 November 2007 21:23, Jerzy Zak rattled on the keyboard: On 2007-11-26, at 20:06, Roland Hayes wrote: What about the Francesco Conti ms. - songs with instruments and d minor lute in tab (?) Could this be a theorbo in d minor? R. ...If I remember there is a CD recording of it (I don't have it), but that must be a completely diferent, virtual reality. Jurek I have the CD at home and it's quite nice music. Typical Vienna style. I agree that the music is a bit difficult to understand sometimes. Never played to music myself with an ensemble, but it's on a list of pieces to try. Is the lute on the CD audible? Interesting is perhaps that the first book contains lute tabulature, while the second does not. Conti was a lutenist, so perhaps these other cantates were performed with lute Dm continuo, although conti was also known as theorbo player (and of course as 'kapellmeister'). There are several Conti manuscripts in Vienna and the music is a bit rediscovered nowadays (for example his operas are regularly performed in Austria). Don't know if there are more examples of explicit lute tabulature in his music. I have read somewhere, if I remember well, that after his death they asked weiss who was working in dresden to come as his replacement. Taco To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Narvey article online/Dm continuo in Italy
The CD is Composition féminine with Chris Bilobram, gitarre VKJK 0422. In addition to Camilla Rossi and Taileferre it includes pieces for guitar by Emilia Giuliani (daughter of Mauro), Ida Presti, Marie Anido and Elisabeth Austin. I rec'd a copy from ArkivMusic (a US subsidiary of Harmonia mundi). ==AJN (Boston, Mass.) This week's free download from Classical Music Library is _Prokofiev's Sonata for Violin and Piano No. 1, Op. 80___ Go to my web page: http://mysite.verizon.net/arthurjness/ For some free scores, go to: http://mysite.verizon.net/vzepq31c/arthurjnesslutescores/ - Original Message - From: Arthur Ness [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Jerzy Zak [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: Lute Net lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Sunday, December 02, 2007 4:20 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Narvey article online/Dm continuo in Italy Also associated with Francesco Conti in Vienna was Camilla de Rossi. A few years ago I looked at some of her oratorios (publ. ClarNan Editions), and they often feature prominent part (in pitch notation) for obbligato theorbo, played doubtlessly by Conti, the Kapellmeister. The sinfonia for one of the oratorios is (in effect) a lute concerto. I heard it played on guitar on a CD that included the recently discovered Tailleferre concerto for two guitars (an excellent work, although the guitars get lost in the orchestral texture). ==AJN Boston, Mass. This week's free download from Classical Music Library: Mahler: Symphony No. 5 Go to my web page: http://mysite.verizon.net/arthurjness/ For some free scores, go to: http://mysite.verizon.net/vzepq31c/arthurjnesslutescores/ - Original Message - From: Jerzy Zak [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Barocklautenliste Lutelist' [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, November 27, 2007 6:07 PM Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Narvey article online/Dm continuo in Italy Dear Taco, On 2007-11-27, at 13:12, Taco Walstra wrote: On Monday 26 November 2007 21:23, Jerzy Zak rattled on the keyboard: On 2007-11-26, at 20:06, Roland Hayes wrote: What about the Francesco Conti ms. - songs with instruments and d minor lute in tab (?) Could this be a theorbo in d minor? R. ...If I remember there is a CD recording of it (I don't have it), but that must be a completely diferent, virtual reality. Jurek I have the CD at home and it's quite nice music. Typical Vienna style. I agree that the music is a bit difficult to understand sometimes. Never played to music myself with an ensemble, but it's on a list of pieces to try. Is the lute on the CD audible? Interesting is perhaps that the first book contains lute tabulature, while the second does not. Conti was a lutenist, so perhaps these other cantates were performed with lute Dm continuo, although conti was also known as theorbo player (and of course as 'kapellmeister'). There are several Conti manuscripts in Vienna and the music is a bit rediscovered nowadays (for example his operas are regularly performed in Austria). Don't know if there are more examples of explicit lute tabulature in his music. I have read somewhere, if I remember well, that after his death they asked weiss who was working in dresden to come as his replacement. Taco To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Spinacino online
Dear Arthur All, Even though we are looking at two sets of images of the same prints, the published and online facsimilies are interesting to compare. Two things are immediately apparent. The library stamp has been removed from the title page of the Minkoff edition, which is fair enough as it's not part of the original, but it does make one wonder about any other details that might have been 'retouched.' Secondly, many of the stave lines in the online images are very distorted, but in the Minkoff print they are dead straight. So the stave lines must surely have been straight when the Paris photos were taken. I wonder if the distortion that has since occurred might have been from the book being in damp conditions during the war years? At least, it's good to know that Petrucci didn't print those wobbly lines! It's also very nice to see the corrections Petrucci's workshop made to misprints - see for example f.32v, Libro Primo,fourth measure of 'Adieu mes amours' where the second event has been corrected.Or f.5r of the Libro Primo, top stave, 6th measure, first event: the handwritten '5' is reasonably clear in both versions, but in the online copy it's much clearer that the '3' below it is handwritten, and that a further tablature letter below that has been erased.Despite the fact that we are in theory looking at two identical sets of images, there are subtle differences that are worth looking out for. Best wishes, Denys -Original Message- From: Arthur Ness [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 01 December 2007 23:00 To: Lute Net Subject: [LUTE] Re: Spinacino online - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Saturday, December 01, 2007 9:22 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Spinacino online Dear Wolfgang, On 12/1/2007, wolfgang wiehe [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Do you noticed differences to the minkoff facsimile? Interesting! I have both. Could you show us what differences you have found thus far? All the best, Arto Dear Arto and friends, They are the same book. Before its discovery in Krakow, the only surviving copy of Spinacino (books 1 2) was in the Staatsbibliothek in Berlin (shelf number Mus. ant. pract. P680/1-2). It disappeared during WW_II, and was known after the war from a Photostat made by Genevieve Thibault (iirc), and deposited in the Bibliotheque nationale in Paris. The original Berlin copy (the only one known in modern days) turned up in Krakow about ten years ago. Thus the on-line digitalizecd copy and Mrs. Minkoff's facsimile are reproductions of the very same book. At one time, Mrs. Minkoff retouched some of pages in her facsimiles, but stopped that parctice after receiving complaints. In one instance she removed fingering dots that she thought were fly specs (or something like that).g But I do not know if she did so with her Spinacino facsimile, which is fairly late, and probably after she got the Word (from Bob Spencer). There is a modern edition of both books with transcrption and parallel tablature in H. L. Schmidt's dissertation at U of North Carlina at Chapel Hill. ==AJN (Boston, Mass.) This week's free download from Classical Music Library is _Prokofiev's Sonata for Violin and Piano No. 1, Op. 80___ Go to my web page: http://mysite.verizon.net/arthurjness/ For some free scores, go to: http://mysite.verizon.net/vzepq31c/arthurjnesslutescores/ To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Swanneck
Thanks for the note, Danny. I am not one to criticize synthetic strings, as I use them too on my Venere renaissance lute (for the time being). I think it is great that we have choices. Somne of the best recordings of lute music have been recorded in synthetic strings. For me, I sound best in gut. But my, oh yes, it is very fussy. I am not necessarily asking for people to convert to gut. You also bring up an important point.. that is, it does take a different approach with the right hand in learning how to use gut appropriately beautifully. Down to only 4 instruments? Too bad ed At 10:44 AM 12/2/2007 -0500, Daniel Shoskes wrote: Ed, as you know I have gone through phases of experimentation with gut on my barqoue lutes. Even though we both live in cold climes, I have not been successful keeping gut easily in tune, at least not on my bass rider. With my limited time to practice, it is simply not possible to spend a good chunk of time tuning. Also, and I know this is sacrilege, I don't find the sound difference to be worth it to me. I think that gut requires a different right hand technique to sound at it's best and too often I have heard gut played poorly with I suppose the implicit message being well it's on gut, so it must sound great and be authentic. OTOH, I'm not criticizing anyone who spends the time and effort to make a fully gut strung instrument sound great and I've heard that many times too (eg. Earl Christy at LSA, the recent luteduo videos and of course YOU Ed). I'm not a recording or performance artist and even with the occasional amateur concert or youtube video I'm pretty much playing for my own enjoyment, so this is what has worked for me so far. Having said that, I am interested in new developments in gut technology and always willing to try something new, once it has been vetted by the gut experts on the cutting edge. What has peaked my interest again is this swan neck discussion. I love the volume and balance of the Jauch but don't want to devote my RH thumb to damping every bass I strike. That's why the idea of a Jauch with long thick gut basses and best current technology trebles is appealing. For crying out loud, I'm down to only 4 instruments at the moment! Danny www.dshoskes.com www.youtube.com/kidneykutter On Dec 2, 2007, at 9:41 AM, Edward Martin wrote: Why not stringing it all in gut? ed At 08:36 AM 12/2/2007 -0500, Daniel Shoskes wrote: That is what I find interesting though. Long gut strings seem to be much more stable in terms of keeping in tune (and getting them there). I like the idea of long guts in the basses of a Jauch and then nylgut and KF for the fingerboard strings. Edward Martin 2817 East 2nd Street Duluth, Minnesota 55812 e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] voice: (218) 728-1202 To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.16.12/1163 - Release Date: 12/1/2007 12:05 PM Edward Martin 2817 East 2nd Street Duluth, Minnesota 55812 e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] voice: (218) 728-1202
[LUTE] Re: Spinacino online
Dear Denys, I think it was about the time of the Utrecht lute conference where mention was made of Mrs. Minkoff's practice of retouching her facsimiles. She attended and took Bob Spencer's criticism at one of the sessions with typical good humor. The Minkoff facsimile first dates from 1978. Well before the criticism was expressed. She stopped the practice immediately. I wonder if she re-did the Spinacino facsijmile for the 1998ish reprint. That's a very interesting analysis you have made from a comparison of the two sets of images. During WW_II the ex-Berlin prints were stored in a monestary in Poland. It could well have been cold and damp. As I recall, however, they were very carefully packed. I'll have to tell you about some other instances of publisher's corrections. You are quite correct in looking at all known copies of a print, if possible. And in this case of the same print. ==AJN (Boston, Mass.) This week's free download from Classical Music Library is _Prokofiev's Sonata for Violin and Piano No. 1, Op. 80___ Go to my web page: http://mysite.verizon.net/arthurjness/ For some free scores, go to: http://mysite.verizon.net/vzepq31c/arthurjnesslutescores/ - Original Message - From: Denys Stephens [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Sunday, December 02, 2007 5:48 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Spinacino online Dear Arthur All, Even though we are looking at two sets of images of the same prints, the published and online facsimilies are interesting to compare. Two things are immediately apparent. The library stamp has been removed from the title page of the Minkoff edition, which is fair enough as it's not part of the original, but it does make one wonder about any other details that might have been 'retouched.' Secondly, many of the stave lines in the online images are very distorted, but in the Minkoff print they are dead straight. So the stave lines must surely have been straight when the Paris photos were taken. I wonder if the distortion that has since occurred might have been from the book being in damp conditions during the war years? At least, it's good to know that Petrucci didn't print those wobbly lines! It's also very nice to see the corrections Petrucci's workshop made to misprints - see for example f.32v, Libro Primo,fourth measure of 'Adieu mes amours' where the second event has been corrected.Or f.5r of the Libro Primo, top stave, 6th measure, first event: the handwritten '5' is reasonably clear in both versions, but in the online copy it's much clearer that the '3' below it is handwritten, and that a further tablature letter below that has been erased.Despite the fact that we are in theory looking at two identical sets of images, there are subtle differences that are worth looking out for. Best wishes, Denys -Original Message- From: Arthur Ness [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 01 December 2007 23:00 To: Lute Net Subject: [LUTE] Re: Spinacino online - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Saturday, December 01, 2007 9:22 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Spinacino online Dear Wolfgang, On 12/1/2007, wolfgang wiehe [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Do you noticed differences to the minkoff facsimile? Interesting! I have both. Could you show us what differences you have found thus far? All the best, Arto Dear Arto and friends, They are the same book. Before its discovery in Krakow, the only surviving copy of Spinacino (books 1 2) was in the Staatsbibliothek in Berlin (shelf number Mus. ant. pract. P680/1-2). It disappeared during WW_II, and was known after the war from a Photostat made by Genevieve Thibault (iirc), and deposited in the Bibliotheque nationale in Paris. The original Berlin copy (the only one known in modern days) turned up in Krakow about ten years ago. Thus the on-line digitalizecd copy and Mrs. Minkoff's facsimile are reproductions of the very same book. At one time, Mrs. Minkoff retouched some of pages in her facsimiles, but stopped that parctice after receiving complaints. In one instance she removed fingering dots that she thought were fly specs (or something like that).g But I do not know if she did so with her Spinacino facsimile, which is fairly late, and probably after she got the Word (from Bob Spencer). There is a modern edition of both books with transcrption and parallel tablature in H. L. Schmidt's dissertation at U of North Carlina at Chapel Hill. ==AJN (Boston, Mass.) This week's free download from Classical Music Library is _Prokofiev's Sonata for Violin and Piano No. 1, Op. 80___ Go to my web page: http://mysite.verizon.net/arthurjness/ For some free scores, go to: http://mysite.verizon.net/vzepq31c/arthurjnesslutescores/ To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Narvey article online/Dm continuo in Italy
The whole oratorio, Il Sacrifizio di Abramo, was recorded by Weser- Renaissance Ensemble, directed by Manfred Cordes, with Susanne Ryden, soprano; Ralf Popken, alto; Jan Stromberg, tenor, and most importantly, Thomas Ihlenfeldt on archlute. Classic Produktion Osnabruck, CPO 999 371-2. Here's a review: http://web.archive.org/web/20040701182144/http:/music.acu.edu/www/ iawm/articles/feb97/whitworth.html On Dec 2, 2007, at 1:20 PM, Arthur Ness wrote: Also associated with Francesco Conti in Vienna was Camilla de Rossi. A few years ago I looked at some of her oratorios (publ. ClarNan Editions), and they often feature prominent part (in pitch notation) for obbligato theorbo, played doubtlessly by Conti, the Kapellmeister. The sinfonia for one of the oratorios is (in effect) a lute concerto. I heard it played on guitar on a CD -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: OT- video
If it is indeed a properly formatted DVD, you can use VobEdit to demux the .VOB into elementary streams, which will be .m2v video and .ac3 audio files. You can then convert the .ac3 to whatever format you like (.wav, .mp3) with BeLight/BeSweet. These are free programs. Not sure if they are available for mac. -Original Message- From: Roman Turovsky [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, December 02, 2007 12:22 PM To: Lutelist Subject: [LUTE] OT- video Dear Collective Wisdom, I am trying to get the video of our last concert from its DVD to my HD so I could get it into FinalCutPro for editing. I can import the video via MediaFork, MacTheRipper and a couple of other pgms, but all of them mangle the audio track. Are there any expert opinions how to accomplish this? I have both a Mac and a PC. RT To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: New Xmas recording
A Retuning of theorboes - Original Message - From: Robert Clair [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Lute List lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Saturday, December 01, 2007 6:18 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: New Xmas recording Count 'em THREE theorboes (theorbi, theorbot?) Yes, but what is the proper collective noun for a ? of theorboes ? ..Bob -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: OT- video
It depends on how the DVD was encoded. Normally, the audio either compressed into the MPEG or on a separate 12 bit or 16 bit track. Some even record to 5.1 dolby (newer sony) of compressed HD (two kinds, HDV, AVCHD) Take the DVD camera, or video camera, and then figure out all the settings used to record. If you are in 12 bit audio you will need to convert the audio, and so on. DVDDecrypter is probably the most accurate DVD extractor for non copyright DVD. But I'm assuming this is a format/codec issue. Normally, you should not use the built in camera sound except as a scrub track, but it can be made to sounds presentable. Most DVD NLEs do not handle audio properly, so that is another hurdle. NLES that do are MAGIX (cheap) Sequoia (very expensive) and Vegas (medium) dt -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: New Xmas recording
Or perhaps a Heard? - Original Message - From: David Tayler [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: lute-cs.dartmouth.edu lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Sunday, December 02, 2007 12:33 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: New Xmas recording A roulade of theorbos At 03:27 PM 12/1/2007, you wrote: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_collective_nouns_for_reptiles_and_amphibians РТ Count 'em THREE theorboes (theorbi, theorbot?) Yes, but what is the proper collective noun for a ? of theorboes ? ..Bob -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: New Xmas recording
A threat of theorboes. On Dec 2, 2007, at 4:01 PM, A.J. Padilla, M.D. wrote: Or perhaps a Heard? - Original Message - From: David Tayler [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: lute-cs.dartmouth.edu lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Sunday, December 02, 2007 12:33 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: New Xmas recording A roulade of theorbos At 03:27 PM 12/1/2007, you wrote: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ List_of_collective_nouns_for_reptiles_and_amphibians РТ Count 'em THREE theorboes (theorbi, theorbot?) Yes, but what is the proper collective noun for a ? of theorboes ? ..Bob -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE-BUILDER] Re: Lute - Baroque Guitar
Jon- Nice to hear from you again. Mike Wilson Original Message: - From: Jon Murphy [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2007 01:37:56 -0500 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [LUTE-BUILDER] Re: Lute - Baroque Guitar Troy, You have two good suggestions from Din and Rob. My lute is temporarily on hold for medical reasons, but I invested in both the Lundberg book Historical Lute Construction and van Edwards CD-ROM. For Din, I only have two and a half years into my lute. A stroke two years ago left me with the mold made, and the ribs shaved to thickness. Like you it is a matter of belief - I'm scared to make that next step of forming and shaping the ribs over the mold. Once I get that done I think the rest will go quickly. The stroke is no longer relevant, now it is a matter of the guts to step into the making of the body. Troy, if you were to choose to buy one of the suggested instructionals I'd spend the extra and go with David van Edwards CD-ROM - it is in PDF format and you can print out the pages as you go along to keep them by your workplace. The Lundberg book is excellent, but not quite as step by step, yet a good reference for the experienced builder of stringed instruments. I'm not unhappy to have both, but were I to do it over again I'd go with van Edwards for my first try (I got Lundberg before I heard of van Edwards). Best, Jon To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html mail2web.com Enhanced email for the mobile individual based on Microsoft® Exchange - http://link.mail2web.com/Personal/EnhancedEmail
[LUTE] Re: Spinacino online
That is simply stunning! Many thanks to you and John Griffiths. Sean On Nov 30, 2007, at 3:26 PM, Denys Stephens wrote: Dear All, The digital facsimile of the two Spinacino books has gone online today as John Griffiths said it would in a mailing to the list a while ago: http://www.cesr.univ-tours.fr/ricercar/luth/corpus/ corpus_luthistes.php http://www.cesr.univ-tours.fr/ricercar/luth/corpus/corpus_luthistes.php The online view seems to be not functioning correctly but the option to download the complete volume in PDF format works perfectly. The PDF contains both books, so you only need to download it once. It's a great gift to the lute world, and a fine way to honour the 500th anniversary of the first printed lute books. Great thanks are due to all who made this possible. Best wishes, Denys http://www.cesr.univ-tours.fr/Ricercar/luth/corpus/fiche_source.php? id_sour ce=1 -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Spinacino online
Denys Stephens wrote: Secondly, many of the stave lines in the online images are very distorted, but in the Minkoff print they are dead straight. So the stave lines must surely have been straight when the Paris photos were taken. I wonder if the distortion that has since occurred might have been from the book being in damp conditions during the war years? At least, it's good to know that Petrucci didn't print those wobbly lines! The lines are straight; it is only the 'cockling' of the pages that makes them appear slightly wavy. You can see the effect at the top and bottom edges of the pages too. It doesnt take very much in the way of dampness to cause this to happen; very much and the pages either mildew or stick together. At what point (or points?) in the book's history this occurred I couldn't guess. -- Stephen Fryer Lund Computer Services ** The more answers I find, the more questions I have ** To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE-BUILDER] Re: Lute - Baroque Guitar
Rob, I envy you your 5 years of study with Bob Lundberg, and have no quarrel with his methods to the extent that they are represented in his book. I'm glad to have the book on my shelves as a cross reference and backup to David van Edwards' course. I don't regret the dual expenditure in having both, although I probably would have gotten Bob's book later - after my first completed lute from David's CD. You make a good point, start cutting wood. David's CD is far more a step by step instructional than Bob's book - perhaps it is that aspect that makes it easier to break through that first block of getting started. On the other hand Bob's book (I just pulled it from my shelves and glanced through it) is a bit more general, what you call an intellectual approach. An example - the mold (mould, form). David makes a skeletal mold from MDF - and provides full scale templates for it. Bob builds up his form from layers of wood (almost as in the transition from the ancient masada type Egyptian tomb to the smoother pyramid) which he then shaves with a draw knife. David's method is initially easier - but my next mold will be done Bob's way. In part because I love using a draw knife, and in part because one of my concerns is fittting the belly segments over the skeletal ribs of David's mold - and that may be my delay in restarting. There is a great deal more effort involved in matching the skeletal mold ribs than it would appear in the instructional - it took me months, and I won't be sure I have it right until I actually make the belly. In fact, come to think of it, I may consider canning the mold I made from David's instructional and making one with Bob's method (using David's templates). Not to knock David's method, I'm sure his skills at shaping the belly over the skeleton mold give him consistant and excellent results - but perhaps the fully carved form that Bob uses might instill more confidence in a beginner. The final shape of the form will be the final shape of the belly, whereas with the skeleton it will involve some extra skills in the wood bending process. Sorry for the bit of stream of consciousness, and the picking out of one detail, but it emphasizes that there is more than one way to skin a cat (and luckily my cat, Lucky, isn't watching me type this - she doesn't like that analogy). I thank Troy for bringing this up, and Rob and Din for mentioning the competing instructionals. I am ashamed of myself for chickening out, but I think this will get me back on track - and particularly as I'll now compare the two approaches at each step and make my own decisions. I like the thought of redoing my mold, I think I'll be more comfortable with a solid one. Best, Jon To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE-BUILDER] Re: Lute - Baroque Guitar
Mike, Glad to be back! I'm going to append a message to you below your quoted message so that the entire list doesn't have to read it. But I send it to the list because some might be interested. JWM. - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, December 02, 2007 11:19 PM Subject: RE: [LUTE-BUILDER] Re: Lute - Baroque Guitar Jon- Nice to hear from you again. Mike Wilson * Mike, and all, For some reason I haven't been seeing Lute Builder communications for some time, I guess I got them lost in a filter somehow. I'm going to toss in a bit of the personal just because I feel like it. I got off track for a while due to some medical problems, these happen when you reach my advanced age g, luckily my age ain't that advanced (72) in these days. I have continued with my intent to write a book on strings - I've been doing physical experiments on the various materials with a few devices of my own concoction. The manufacturers provide some specs as to density and tensile strength - and these are key factors in instrument design - but many are out of date, and don't allow for the differences in manufacturing quality. I've built a set of shears (the two leg derrick used in the days of wooden ships to raise the masts) and a block and tackle rig to test the tensile strengths (the weights were a problem, then I got body builder's weights at a Modell's at a discount). I can put direct tension of up to 170 lbs. in increments of a half pound (and no, I don't start low and add half pounds). A jeweler's scale lets me test the density of the material. I'm working with steel, gut, Nylgut, bronze and brass - I hope to come up with a practical reference book for all stringed instruments. I'm sure those who have read this far wonder why this effort when the formulae and principles of the strings have been known for centuries (and the basics known since Pythagorus). I got off onto a side track this summer when an emergency operation on one of my legs made me keep my leg up. I couldn't play my harp, which is my main instrument, and it wasn't a great position for the lute - so I started working with the medieval psaltery I'd made a couple of years ago - and had considered a bit of a toy. As I played it I realized that there was more to it than I thought - and I looked up the various paintings and sketches from the times and found it was often played as a polyphonic instrument laid horizontally, and with many more strings than the current makers use. Not the simple melody instrument of the new age practitioners. That returned me to the writing of the book, and started me on the idea of making fully capable psalteries for sale. (They are a lot easier to make than lutes). Harps and lutes, psalteries and dulcimers (and I convinced that historically the dulcimer is a psaltery that is struck - they separated a couple of centuries ago). The strings are the same (given the material) but the criteria for selection are different. It is said that the lute should be tuned just under the break pitch of the chanterelle, then the rest appropriately. My flat back from Musikits was over length - it took a particular fishing line of a slightly higher tensile strength than musical nylon to get it to G. (Musikits changed its length on my advice). That brought me to the personal discovery of the long known fact that there is a breaking pitch, something that should have been obvious - but like Columbus and the egg not generally recognized. Yet all the articles and texts that dealt with the string formulae were specific to the instrument. The harp maker, with his many strings pulling directly away from the soundboard, has to consider the total tension of all the strings (which can amount to over 1000 lbs), else the soundboard will pop. The luthier has different concerns as his strings are stopped to change the pitch, making the fixed length variable. The zither/cithera/lyre/psaltery maker is in between. I've recast the formulae algebraically, and am graphing the competing characteristics, such that I think I will come up with something universally useful (including the recasting regarding the use of weight measures of tension and the force measure as in Newtons). They are all the same, just use different fixed and independent variables. OK, I've rambled. Now a bit more. My workshop is in a converted walk-in closet in my bedroom, and has spread into the bedroom. Storage of supplies and partially completed work is almost impossible. My lady and I have decided to move (she will sell her NYC co-op apartment and move here - we have bid on a slightly larger place in my development that has an attic!!! And a bedroom for me big enough to sleep in and have a properly laid out workshop - and keep my sawdust out of her living room). I expect that to happen in February, and the move is only a short drive (for Tiger Woods, a
