[LUTE] Re: The Galliard

[Doctor Oakroot]

Sounds like the video starts black and you're not letting it run long
enough to actually start doing anything. (But I haven't watched it so not
sure). If your connection isn't blazing fast, the video may take some time
to get going and run in fits and starts - that's what I found at vimeo
when I was on DSL-Light.


>I'd like to watch David's vimeo, but when I click on the start arrow at
>bottom left of image, the image becomes black and two bars (as in the
>"pause" symbol) appear.  Clicking on that, brings back the original
>image.  The video does not play.  Any ideas about what I'm doing wrong?
>
>
>
>Ned
>  __
>
>--
>
>
> To get on or off this list see list information at
> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>


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New album: ~ Falling from the Sky ~ FREE DOWNLOAD at
http://doctoroakroot.com/icarus

[LUTE] Re: la folia witchcraft

[Doctor Oakroot]

Not that it's on topic or anything, but I'm a Witch for one. We do exist :o)

> been la-la-la-la-ling it in mandolin land these days - hope you won't
>mind the following.
>there's a video on youtube in which a minister in gov. palin's church
>blesses her with protection against witchcraft - absolutely beggars
>belief ... prompted me to write the following - using the traditional
>"la folia" progression:
>http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=9HIQhsY4F-0
>collusion with a priest
>in protection from the witch
>presupposes belief that they exist
>if we all give the power to palin
>will we get the horror of salem?
>http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=billkilpatrick
>
>Send instant messages to your online friends
>http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com --
>
>
> To get on or off this list see list information at
> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>


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~ Shroud for the Dead ~ available at http://cdbaby.com/cd/droakroot7

[LUTE] Re: more general scams

[Doctor Oakroot]

You were right. That's a scam.

UPS is in the business of delivering physical packages - they would have
left you a note on your door, not an email, if there were an undelivered
package.


> This is not the same issue, but like many of you, no doubt, I have
> received several offers to share with a Nigerian banker the profits
> of a person who has just died intestate.
> Of course I didn't fall for that. However, a week ago I received a
> message purporting to be from UPS about an undelivered parcel, and
> there is an attachment to click on,
> and I am told this includes a form for details I need to fill-in to
> be able to receive this parcel.
> Now this time, I very nearly clicked on the attachment, thinking
> perhaps some lute strings, I had forgotten I had ordered, had just
> arrived.
> However, something about it made me hesitate, I may be wrong and it
> may be valid, but I think it is a clever new scam to get personal
> details, or to spread a virus.
> Have any of you received a similar message purporting to be from UPS.
> Anthony
>
>
> Le 12 août 08 à 17:38, Guy Smith a écrit :
>
>> If you are selling an instrument over the internet, watch out for the
>> "Nigerian scam" (they'll offer to send you considerably more than the
>> purchase price and you are to send the extra back...). I got one of
>> these in
>> response to an ad for a tandem bicycle that I'm trying to sell, and I
>> advertised only on a private mailing list. I've heard of several other
>> similar incidents with tandems, and I imagine they could target
>> lutes as
>> well.
>>
>> Guy
>>
>> -Original Message-
>> From: Wayne Cripps [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>> Sent: Tuesday, August 12, 2008 8:26 AM
>> To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
>> Subject: [LUTE] baroque guitar scam
>>
>>
>>
>> Hi folks -
>>
>>  You probably know that I run a "lutes for sale" web page.  at
>> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute/forsale.html .  I just got
>> the first "for sale" scam - at least it seems like a scam to me..
>>
>>   I am Brad Baker.I came accross your wanted advert and email
>> address on
>>  http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute/forsale.html#wanted I would
>> like
>>  to inform you that i have 5 course baroque guitar For Sale @ 1,400
>>  Euro(Give Away Price)including shipping to your front door in Finland
>>  via Courier express delivery.The price of this lutes are more than
>>  2,500 euro.You can't get it this price(1,400 euro)anywhere.Hurry up
>>  now,this is give away price.Buy one and get one free Nokia mobile
>> phone.
>>
>>
>>  Maybe I am wrong... maybe many respected luthiers are now supplying
>> free cell phones with their usual merchandise.. but I would suggest
>> that you be careful with any internet transactions with strangers.
>>
>>  You can see the instruments at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/
>> lute/Baker/
>> There seem to be two different pairs of guitars and a fifth by itself.
>> Maybe one of them is yours!
>>
>>  Wayne
>>
>>
>>
>> To get on or off this list see list information at
>> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>>
>>
>
>
>


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~ Shroud for the Dead ~ available at http://cdbaby.com/cd/droakroot7

[LUTE] Re: what are underlights ...

[Doctor Oakroot]

What about Aurora Borealis? Was Campion far enough north to see it?

> .. in Thomas Campion's lute song Author of Light?
>
> Sun and moon,
> stars and underlights I see,
> but all their glorious beams
> are mists and darkness
> being compar'd to thee.
>
> The OED is not really helpfull, suggestion lightning for a much later
> occurence. Anybody out there who can shed some light on this?
>
> David - as ever, greatly appreciative
>
>
>
> 
> David van Ooijen
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> www.davidvanooijen.nl
> 
>
>
>
>
> To get on or off this list see list information at
> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>


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~ Shroud for the Dead ~ available at http://cdbaby.com/cd/droakroot7

[LUTE] Re: Making a duet from a solo.

[Doctor Oakroot]

In the composition of a solo piece for a lute-like instrument, compromises
are made to accommodate the limitations of the instrument. If one can
discern these compromises, one could undo them to fill out the intended
harmony in the second lute part.
>
> The obvious method for making a duet from a solo is
> to simply divide the notes between the two lutes,
> usually giving the melody notes to one lute and the
> remaining notes to the other lute.
>
> Are there any more sophisticated considerations
> for endevours of this type, which can be formulated
> into textual rules?  I ask because sometimes
> the above method seems to change the character of
> the piece somewhat.
>
>
>
> To get on or off this list see list information at
> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>


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~ Shroud for the Dead ~ available at http://cdbaby.com/cd/droakroot7

[LUTE] Re: tuners

[Doctor Oakroot]

> You spontaneously/intuitively know how to position frets for 1/6 comma
> meantone?
>
>
How did period lutenists do it? By ear - or some combination of ear and
linear measurement. Any error in intonation doing it by ear would be HIP.

And, yes, I can place frets in the scale systems I use (Pythagorean and
Just, primarily) by measurement and ear.

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~ Shroud for the Dead ~ available at http://cdbaby.com/cd/droakroot7



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[LUTE] Re: tuners

[Doctor Oakroot]

I think it's really funny that folks who insist on playing early music on
historically accurate instruments use electronic tuners to set them up.
ROFL

> Stuart wrote:
>
>> Anyone got any advice/recommendations on tuners? Do people use them to
>> position frets too?
>
> I recently bought the Turbo Tuner (Sonic Research ST122 Chromatic Strobe
> Tuner www.turbo-tuner.com ) and love it. Easily programmable, very
> accurate,
> easy read-out, mic/software is very good in picking up lute sound - even
> low
> basses, no moving parts, sturdily build, small. You can attach a clip-mic,
> but you'll have to buy one seperately. I use it for different
> temperaments.
> Yes, fret positioning too. I also have  'the brick', as the no longer in
> production Korg MT-1200 with a slot for one programmable temperament is
> called. The Turbo Tuner is by far the better of the two.
>
> David
>
>
> 
> David van Ooijen
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> www.davidvanooijen.nl
> 
>
>
>
>
> To get on or off this list see list information at
> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>


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~ Shroud for the Dead ~ available at http://cdbaby.com/cd/droakroot7

[LUTE] Re: Lute Sighting

[Doctor Oakroot]

Do you have an actual URL for that? I don't see a path like that at Yahoo.

> All,
>
> If you can get to Yahoo>home>comics>Wizard of Id, you'll see Bung's lute.
>
> Steve
>
>
> --
>
> To get on or off this list see list information at
> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>


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~ Shroud for the Dead ~ available at http://cdbaby.com/cd/droakroot7

[LUTE] Re: No guts no glory

[Doctor Oakroot]

After consulting my Latin dictionary, I completely agree with Mathias on
"Nulla sine nervis gloria". That captures all the aspects of "no guts no
glory" including the lute connection.

(I was mistaking nervus for nervulus before).

> "Ray Brohinsky" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> schrieb:
>> haud ovis ile , haud palma
>> (no [sheep] guts, no glory.)
>
> Haud negates the respective nouns. Put that way, it means neither ...
> nor. Ile, when referring to animals, is used in its plural form, ilia.
> Ilia means stomach, intestines, but neither gut, string, nor guts.
>
>> If you really want to go for the pun, haud ile, haud palma works, but
>> whether there was a Roman association between actual intestines and
>> 'guts' is beyond my paltry four years of study (35 years ago).
>
> Guts in the sense of audacity, boldness, bravery, courage, is in Latin
> conveyed with _animus_, rarely also with alacritas.
>
> Suggesting Nulla sine nervis gloria, I tried to keep the ambiguity of
> nervus = tendon / gut / string / strength / force / vitality.
>
> Mathias
>
>> On 10/23/07, Ron Fletcher <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> > I had thought David meant 'No intestinal fortitude, no acclaim'
>> >
>> > But I would go along with the notion that without gut strings there is
>> no
>> > glory.
>> >
>> > Could this become the motto for the elite of our lute-players?
>> >
>> > What's that in Latin?
>> >
>> > Ron (UK)
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > -Original Message-
>> > From: LGS-Europe [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>> > Sent: Tuesday, October 23, 2007 12:47 PM
>> > To: Edward Martin; lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
>> > Subject: [LUTE] Re: lute reaches mases
>> >
>> > > No guts no glory?
>> >
>> > Come on Ed, of all the glorious lute jobs in the world (...). Of
>> course I
>> > used gut strings! I had 20 guts on my lute. Not a fishing line in
>> sight.
>> >
>> > David
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >   You of all people did not use gut?
>> > >
>> > > What strings did you use - fishing line?
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > At 08:26 AM 10/23/2007 +0200, LGS-Europe wrote:
>> > >>Last Saturday I had to play my lute during a royal baptism here in
>> the
>> > >>Netherlands. 850 people in church, cool enough, but it was live on
>> tv. The
>> >
>> > >>newspaper writes 787000 people watched.  That's a large audience for
>> a
>> > >>lute.
>> > >>
>> > >>David  - No guts no glory.
>> > >>
>> > >>
>> > >>
>> > >>
>> > >>
>> > >>
>> > >>David van Ooijen
>> > >>[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>> > >>www.davidvanooijen.nl
>> > >>
>> > >>
>> > >>
>> > >>
>> > >>To get on or off this list see list information at
>> > >>http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>> > >>
>> > >>
>> > >>--
>> > >>No virus found in this incoming message.
>> > >>Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database:
>> > >>269.15.6/1086 - Release Date: 10/22/2007 7:57 PM
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > Edward Martin
>> > > 2817 East 2nd Street
>> > > Duluth, Minnesota  55812
>> > > e-mail:  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>> > > voice:  (218) 728-1202
>
>
>


-- 
http://DoctorOakroot.com - Rough-edged songs on homemade GIT-tars.

[LUTE] Re: No guts no glory

[Doctor Oakroot]

But that misses the Lute meaning of "gut" doesn't it?

>>What's that in Latin?
>
> Nulla sine nervis gloria
> --
> Mathias
>
>
>
> To get on or off this list see list information at
> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>


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[LUTE] Re: String Question

[Doctor Oakroot]

Those are classical guitar strings with ball ends. 1st-3rd are nylon.
4th-6th are a copper alloy wrapped around a nylon core. I would expect a
lot of intonation problems putting nylon strings on a 12-string guitar -
and no way to adjust.

Your friend might consider getting a fretted Cumbus. This has 12 metal
strings, but no octave stringing. But with an floating bridge, it's easy
to adjust for the intonation difference. I've done this with a Cumbus. I
found it necessary to make a new, wooden, tail piece to solve a problem
with the tail piece cutting the nylon strings - this was easy to do.

Lark in the Morning has Cubuses pretty cheap:
http://larkinam.com/search.asp?t=ss&sb=0%22&ss=cumbus&x=23&y=15

Hmmm... I don't see the fretted one on that page, but I'm sure they can
get one for you. Or just tie frets on like a lute.


> Dear Collected Wisdom,
>
> A fellow I know wants to start learning the lute. However he can't afford
> a lute at this time. Instead he has a 12-string guitar that he wants to do
> a non-invasive conversion to. That is he wants to restring it with nylon
> strings instead of the steel ones that are standard on such guitars. The
> problem is that steel strings have a nut or ball on the end that is held
> in the bridge by a peg. He has found that D'Addario has a ball ended nylon
> string (http://www.classicax.com/daddario/folk.htm#anchor443559) but this
> page is rather confusing as to whether he can get a full set or even if
> they are completely nylon but, as seems to be implied, metal wound over
> nylon. Has anyone had any experience with these string in particular or
> any other strings that might suit this beginner without his having to
> replace the bridge on his guitar to allow for tied on strings?
>
> Thank you for your time.
>
> Regards,
> Craig
>
>
> _
> Need personalized email and website? Look no further. It's easy
> with Doteasy $0 Web Hosting! Learn more at www.doteasy.com
>
>
>
> To get on or off this list see list information at
> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>


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[LUTE] Re: Looking for new tuner

[Doctor Oakroot]

Set your tuner to A 439.6 and tune your Bb to that. That will give you A 415.

> now i'm using my old guitar tuner to tune the lute, i cant hear the
> pitch or set it lower then A=436Hz.
>
> so now i'm looking for new tuner, one that i'll be able to hear and
> set the pitch for each course, and set A to 415Hz
>
>
> any suggestions?
>
>
> b.h.w.
> international shipment is needed, in israel we got nothing (and i
> searched in every store...)
>
>
>
> To get on or off this list see list information at
> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>


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[LUTE] Re: longbows & lutes

[Doctor Oakroot]

I'm both an archer (very amateur) and a lute player.

>
> As the only archer amongst all the lute players (so far as I know- as
> well as the only lutenist amongst the archers) I can't recommend the
> study of archery too strongly- what a great balance of culturally &
> physically complementary disciplines. Both Henry VIII and Elizabeth I
> were archers as well as lute players, after all.
>
> dw
>
>>While preparing for a concert on ren lute years ago at Emory University,
>> in
>>the Law School building, I stepped out into the hallway to practice a few
>>quiet licks while the consort practiced another piece I didn't play in.
>> This
>>was at 8pm. The hallway was cavernous and made a nice echo. Within a
>> minute,
>>a crowd of angry law students with a security officer appeared and began
>> to
>>verbally assault me. Yes and even threatened to sue for damages. How dare
>> I
>>pluck a lute in a law shool with future lawyers in the torture of
>> studying!
>>I told them I would stop, but the shouting peresisted on into the lecture
>>hall where the concert was to be. The concert was cancelled by the Law
>>School faculty and I got letters. The library was a floor down through
>> two
>>sets of fire doors. And you though you had tough critics. "I didn't know
>> the
>>lute was loaded"
>>
>>Lou Aull
>>
>>--
>>
>>To get on or off this list see list information at
>>http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>
>
> --
>
>
>
>


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[LUTE] Re: Historical gut strings.

[Doctor Oakroot]

> to my ear Nylgut is out of tune above
> the 4th fret, but some find it acceptable.

That probably has more to do with your fret placement than the string
material. One probably does need some fret placement adjustment to match
string material - I would thing a very small adjustment between the
materials used for lute strings.

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[LUTE] Re: Historical gut strings.

[Doctor Oakroot]

> But he also said something like "I won't go into how we know this."
>
That sounds like code for "I don't know what I'm talking about." lol


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[LUTE] Re: [Viols] question about the viola da gamba

[Doctor Oakroot]

The double bass is a viol that's lost its frets, not a violin.

> Is the double bass a member of the violin family? It shares neither tuning
> nor structure. By the way a double bass player is called a bassist.
>
> Gary
>
> - Original Message -
> From: "Paul Kemner" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Wednesday, March 14, 2007 8:17 AM
> Subject: Re: [Viols] question about the viola da gamba
>
>
>> To add further confusion the bass of the violin family (double bass)
>> is called a bass viol too. Maybe "true lyre of Apollo" would be simpler.
>>
>>
>> ___
>> Viols mailing list
>> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>> http://lists.sandwich.net/mailman/listinfo.cgi/viols
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> No virus found in this incoming message.
>> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
>> Version: 7.5.446 / Virus Database: 268.18.11/722 - Release Date:
>> 3/14/2007
> 3:38 PM
>>
>>
>
>
>
> To get on or off this list see list information at
> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>


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[LUTE] Re: Renaissance ditto/ij/" --was Fuenllana Tan que vivray (not a ditto this time,lol)

[Doctor Oakroot]

My email program kept saying it hadn't sent it. Yikes.

In Latin 'i' and 'j' are the same letter which is what led me to the
thought that it might be II. 'ij' is certainly not a Latin word otherwise.

>
> On Mar 6, 2007, at 10:41 AM, Doctor Oakroot wrote:
>
>> Is it actually 'II' (roman numeral) with a fancy hook? Is the modern
>> repeat sign from the same source?
>
> I doubt it, Doc. In all renaissance prints I've seen, roman numerals
> are invariably upper case type and the ij is always lower case. And a
> second repeat is never III. To be fair, they may have avoided the upper
> case for size or its distraction.
>
> Are there any plausible latin phrases based on "ij"?
>
> Sean
>
> ps, your message seems to be taking this ditto topic literally.
>
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Not an eta but 'ij' (two) which means: again.
>>>
>>> While we're in the nitty gritty of Pete and Repeat, what is the origin
>>> of "ij"? This evolved into our modern 'ditto' mark ( " ), right?
>>>
>>> Sean
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> To get on or off this list see list information at
>>> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> http://DoctorOakroot.com - Rough-edged songs on homemade GIT-tars.
>>
>>
>
>
>


-- 
http://DoctorOakroot.com - Rough-edged songs on homemade GIT-tars.

[LUTE] Re: Fuenllana Tan que vivray

[Doctor Oakroot]

Is it actually 'II' (roman numeral) with a fancy hook? Is the modern
repeat sign from the same source?

>
>
> Not an eta but 'ij' (two) which means: again.
>
> While we're in the nitty gritty of Pete and Repeat, what is the origin
> of "ij"? This evolved into our modern 'ditto' mark ( " ), right?
>
> Sean
>
>
>
>
> To get on or off this list see list information at
> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>


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[LUTE] Re: Fuenllana Tan que vivray

[Doctor Oakroot]

Is it actually 'II' (roman numeral) with a fancy hook? Is the modern
repeat sign from the same source?

>
>
> Not an eta but 'ij' (two) which means: again.
>
> While we're in the nitty gritty of Pete and Repeat, what is the origin
> of "ij"? This evolved into our modern 'ditto' mark ( " ), right?
>
> Sean
>
>
>
>
> To get on or off this list see list information at
> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>


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[LUTE] Re: Fuenllana Tan que vivray

[Doctor Oakroot]

Is it actually 'II' (roman numeral) with a fancy hook? Is the modern
repeat sign from the same source?

>
>
> Not an eta but 'ij' (two) which means: again.
>
> While we're in the nitty gritty of Pete and Repeat, what is the origin
> of "ij"? This evolved into our modern 'ditto' mark ( " ), right?
>
> Sean
>
>
>
>
> To get on or off this list see list information at
> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>


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[LUTE] Re: Fuenllana Tan que vivray

[Doctor Oakroot]

Is it actually 'II' (roman numeral) with a fancy hook? Is the modern
repeat sign from the same source?

>
>
> Not an eta but 'ij' (two) which means: again.
>
> While we're in the nitty gritty of Pete and Repeat, what is the origin
> of "ij"? This evolved into our modern 'ditto' mark ( " ), right?
>
> Sean
>
>
>
>
> To get on or off this list see list information at
> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>


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[LUTE] [Re: Google vs Youtube]

[Doctor Oakroot]

Whoops, I once again forgot that this list doesn't work right. lol

 Original Message 
Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: Google vs Youtube
From:"Doctor Oakroot" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date:Mon, February 26, 2007 7:48 am
To:  "Ed Durbrow" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--

Looks very similar to me... no surprise since Google owns Youtube. The
google video is probably youtube technology running in a google skin.

> What a difference!
>
> On Feb 26, 2007, at 10:46 AM, Roman Turovsky wrote:
>
>> Google doesn't have synch problems, and the visual aspect is much
>> better
>> too:
>> http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=5041167636801710718&hl=en
>> RT
>
> Ed Durbrow
> Saitama, Japan
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/
>
>
>
> --
>
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[LUTE] Re: library copyright

[Doctor Oakroot]

Actually, the Apple Music vs Apple Computer case is about trademark not
copyright. Apple Music owns the apple trademark for use in a music
business... so they could not sue NYC which is using the apple, but is not
in the music
business. The question is whether Apple Computer is in the music business.
It seems obvious to me that they are, but so far the courts disagree.

> Check out the current situation between Apple (the Beatles publishing
> company) and McIntosh regarding the use of apples as a logo. Apple
> cannot win I think, because if they do they'll have to start suing
> everybody, including the city of New York, apple farmers, etc.

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[LUTE] Re: microphones

[Doctor Oakroot]

The Shure SM 58 also has a 1dB peak at 3000 Hz, which brings out the
vocal. The 57 is has a fairly flat response (within the limits of what can
be done with a dynamic mic) to accurately reproduce an instrument.

> I would also recommend the Sure mics. Generally the difference
> between the 57 and 58 is that the 57 is considered an instrument mic
> and the 58 vocal. The 58 has a bigger end to protect the workings
> from singers that hold it really close. Otherwise they are about the
> same. One real advantage of these mics is that they are made to stand
> up to being moved from place to place and can even live through being
> dropped once in a while. On the other hand if you drop an expensive
> condenser mic it usually means a trip to the repair shop.
> Nancy Carlin
>
>
>>I use a high sensitivity clip mic on my acoustic, then put that thru' a
>>Korg AX10A acoustic processor, for my lute I use a directional mike,
>>Shure SM58 or 57 then run it thru the same processor which adds a bit
>>more body to the sound.
>>
>>Neil
>>
>>-Original Message-
>>From: Eugene C. Braig IV [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>>Sent: 05 February 2007 15:48
>>To: Doc Rossi; Louis Aull
>>Cc: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
>>Subject: [LUTE] Re: microphones
>>
>>At 12:50 PM 2/4/2007, Doc Rossi wrote:
>>
>> >On Feb 4, 2007, at 6:44 PM, Louis Aull wrote:
>> >
>> > > Ask any performing acoustic guitar player and they will swear by
>> > > internal
>> > > pickups over external mikes.
>> >
>> >Sorry, Louis, not me.
>>
>>Nor me.
>>
>>Eugene
>>
>>
>>
>>To get on or off this list see list information at
>>http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>
> Nancy Carlin Associates
> P.O. Box 6499
> Concord, CA 94524  USA
> phone 925/686-5800 fax 925/680-2582
> web site - www.nancycarlinassociates.com
> Administrator THE LUTE SOCIETY OF AMERICA
> web site - http://LuteSocietyofAmerica.org
>
> --
>


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[LUTE] Re: Historical metronomes.

[Doctor Oakroot]

Well, there are technical problems:

1. Unpowered it probably wouldn't continue meaningful swings through a
whole piece,

2. Where in the swing is the beat? (has to be at the bottom since that's
the only point on the swing that exists at any amplitude)

3. How do you mark the beat? (Any likely visual method - say, a placard
behind the pendulum - would cause parallax problems for ensemble player;
audible methods - say, having the bob click something as it goes past -
would exacerbate problem 1.

Not that these problems couldn't have been overcome, but the players'
inate sense was probably better than the listeners' and no one was
checking them against a mechanical device (otherwise they would have had
metronomes, lol), and that was probably good enough.
>
> A rock on a string makes a fine metronome.
> The tempo does not depend on the rock's weight.
> Nor does it change as the oscillations gradually
> die down.  It depends only on the string length:
> MM 3626 inches
> MM 81 6 inches
>
> So, historical scores could have indicated tempo
> with a length, say "quarter note = 12 inches".
>
> However, using Google, I find no reference to a rock
> and string being used historically as a metronome.
>
> Perhaps their musicality was so innate that the
> idea would never occur to them?
>
>
>
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[LUTE] Re: more than 6 courses

[Doctor Oakroot]

>To me an interesting question is: how did Bakfark come about a 7-course
> lute?
>
Well, if you had a 6c lute and needed a 7th course, you could just put one
extra slot in the nut (a 10 minute job with a small file or a little
longer with a knife) to split the 6th c into two one-string courses. You
could even switch back and forth between 6 and 7 as easily as retuning.

I would be surprised if some enterprising ren lute player didn't think of
that.

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[LUTE] Re: Redoing old songs

[Doctor Oakroot]

It's one of those things on my long term to do list, but haven't gotten to
it yet.

> you're absolutely right ... i was looking at my 5c.
> charango, thinking 4 string uke.
>
> have you tried paraphrasing the lyrics?  i've taken a
> rather stilted translation of an 8th cent. arab ditty
> and come up with this:
>
> one hour with you
> will last a lìfetime
> although i live to be
> old as old noah.
>
> looses something in print alone but works ok as an
> olde worlde warble.
>
> ciao - bill
>
> --- Doctor Oakroot <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>> Yeah, I understand how you're getting e on the 7th
>> fret of the 1st
>> string... but on the 4th string:
>>
>> open - g
>> 1st - g#
>> 2 - a
>> 3 - a#
>> 4 - b (not e)
>> ..
>> 9 - e
>>
>> I've tried doing melancholy ren songs as blues and
>> haven't gotten it to
>> work yet, lol.
>>
>> > doc -
>> >
>> > i get "e" on the 7th fret by counting cosi:
>> >
>> > open - a
>> > 1st - a#
>> > 2nd -b
>> > 3rd -c
>> > 4th - c#
>> > 5th - d
>> > 6th - d#
>> > 7th - e
>> >
>> > given the ruckus caused by sting and his dowland
>> > recordings and the decidedly "woe is me" content
>> of
>> > his (dowland's) tunes, how about a
>> > carolina/baroque/piedmont-ie/blues-type rendition
>> of
>> > same?
>> >
>> > "woahahwoahcomeheavysleep!" da-dada-dah ...
>> >
>> > olè - bill
>> >
>> > --- Doctor Oakroot <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> wrote:
>> >
>> >> Bill,
>> >>
>> >> How are you tuning your uke? On my (standard) uke
>> >> (g-c-e-a), that e is on
>> >> the 9th fret of the 4th string.
>> >>
>> >> > "the star spangled banner," for example, played
>> on
>> >> a
>> >> > ukulele (g-c-e-a) - starting with "g" (2nd
>> string,
>> >> 3rd
>> >> > fret) leaves you with the option of climbing up
>> >> the
>> >> > neck to "e" (1st string, 7th fret) to reach
>> "...
>> >> by
>> >> > the dawn's early light" or switching to the 4th
>> >> > string, 4th fret for the same.  my point was
>> that
>> >> the
>> >> > former - imho - leaves you up there with the
>> >> > "tinky-tinks" while the latter has more
>> vibrating
>> >> > length and a fuller sound.
>> >> >
>> >> > re-entrant tuning with bourdon is something of
>> a
>> >> plus
>> >> > and the charango's 5th course is just icing on
>> the
>> >> > cake.
>> >> >
>> >> > - bill
>> >> >
>> >> > --- David Rastall <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> >> >
>> >> >> On Oct 13, 2006, at 10:00 AM, bill kilpatrick
>> >> wrote:
>> >> >>
>> >> >> > ...my own take on re-entrant tuning is:
>> >> >> > ...you can pursue the high reaches of
>> >> >> > the melody without climbing up the neck
>> >> >>
>> >> >> I don't follow you.  Doesn't it work the other
>> >> way?
>> >> >> The highest
>> >> >> pitched string in re-entrant tuning would be
>> >> either
>> >> >> the second or the
>> >> >> third string.  If you wanted to get above that
>> >> >> pitch, into the higher
>> >> >> reaches, you would have to move up the neck to
>> do
>> >> >> so.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> David R
>> >> >> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>> >> >> www.rastallmusic.com
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > Send instant messages to your online friends
>> >> http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > To get on or off this list see list information
>> at
>> >> >
>> >>
>> >
>>
> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>> >> >
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> --
>> >> http://DoctorOakroot.com - Rough-edged songs on
>> >> homemade GIT-tars.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>>
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>> homemade GIT-tars.
>>
>>
>>
>
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[LUTE] Re: Why re-entrant tuning?

[Doctor Oakroot]

Yeah, I understand how you're getting e on the 7th fret of the 1st
string... but on the 4th string:

open - g
1st - g#
2 - a
3 - a#
4 - b (not e)
..
9 - e

I've tried doing melancholy ren songs as blues and haven't gotten it to
work yet, lol.

> doc -
>
> i get "e" on the 7th fret by counting cosi:
>
> open - a
> 1st - a#
> 2nd -b
> 3rd -c
> 4th - c#
> 5th - d
> 6th - d#
> 7th - e
>
> given the ruckus caused by sting and his dowland
> recordings and the decidedly "woe is me" content of
> his (dowland's) tunes, how about a
> carolina/baroque/piedmont-ie/blues-type rendition of
> same?
>
> "woahahwoahcomeheavysleep!" da-dada-dah ...
>
> olè - bill
>
> --- Doctor Oakroot <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>> Bill,
>>
>> How are you tuning your uke? On my (standard) uke
>> (g-c-e-a), that e is on
>> the 9th fret of the 4th string.
>>
>> > "the star spangled banner," for example, played on
>> a
>> > ukulele (g-c-e-a) - starting with "g" (2nd string,
>> 3rd
>> > fret) leaves you with the option of climbing up
>> the
>> > neck to "e" (1st string, 7th fret) to reach "...
>> by
>> > the dawn's early light" or switching to the 4th
>> > string, 4th fret for the same.  my point was that
>> the
>> > former - imho - leaves you up there with the
>> > "tinky-tinks" while the latter has more vibrating
>> > length and a fuller sound.
>> >
>> > re-entrant tuning with bourdon is something of a
>> plus
>> > and the charango's 5th course is just icing on the
>> > cake.
>> >
>> > - bill
>> >
>> > --- David Rastall <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> >
>> >> On Oct 13, 2006, at 10:00 AM, bill kilpatrick
>> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> > ...my own take on re-entrant tuning is:
>> >> > ...you can pursue the high reaches of
>> >> > the melody without climbing up the neck
>> >>
>> >> I don't follow you.  Doesn't it work the other
>> way?
>> >> The highest
>> >> pitched string in re-entrant tuning would be
>> either
>> >> the second or the
>> >> third string.  If you wanted to get above that
>> >> pitch, into the higher
>> >> reaches, you would have to move up the neck to do
>> >> so.
>> >>
>> >> David R
>> >> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>> >> www.rastallmusic.com
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >
>> >
>> > Send instant messages to your online friends
>> http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > To get on or off this list see list information at
>> >
>>
> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>> >
>>
>>
>> --
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>> homemade GIT-tars.
>>
>>
>>
>
>
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[LUTE] Re: Why re-entrant tuning?

[Doctor Oakroot]

Bill,

How are you tuning your uke? On my (standard) uke (g-c-e-a), that e is on
the 9th fret of the 4th string.

> "the star spangled banner," for example, played on a
> ukulele (g-c-e-a) - starting with "g" (2nd string, 3rd
> fret) leaves you with the option of climbing up the
> neck to "e" (1st string, 7th fret) to reach "... by
> the dawn's early light" or switching to the 4th
> string, 4th fret for the same.  my point was that the
> former - imho - leaves you up there with the
> "tinky-tinks" while the latter has more vibrating
> length and a fuller sound.
>
> re-entrant tuning with bourdon is something of a plus
> and the charango's 5th course is just icing on the
> cake.
>
> - bill
>
> --- David Rastall <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>> On Oct 13, 2006, at 10:00 AM, bill kilpatrick wrote:
>>
>> > ...my own take on re-entrant tuning is:
>> > ...you can pursue the high reaches of
>> > the melody without climbing up the neck
>>
>> I don't follow you.  Doesn't it work the other way?
>> The highest
>> pitched string in re-entrant tuning would be either
>> the second or the
>> third string.  If you wanted to get above that
>> pitch, into the higher
>> reaches, you would have to move up the neck to do
>> so.
>>
>> David R
>> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>> www.rastallmusic.com
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com
>
>
>
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[LUTE] [Re: Too soft to live, was The last word goes to Sting]

[Doctor Oakroot]

Whoops. Forgot to press Reply-All. Now I remember why I never post to this
list.

 Original Message 
Subject: Re: [LUTE] Too soft to live, was The last word goes to Sting
From:"Doctor Oakroot" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date:Tue, October 10, 2006 11:55 am
To:  "Caroline Usher" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--


>But the guitar survived, and it did not become a concert-hall instrument
> until the 20th century.  There's a massive amount of chamber music from
> the 19th century.  Why couldn't the lute have continued equally with the
> guitar in that setting?
>
> I don't know the answer but I am pretty sure that it's not lack of volume.
> Caroline
>
It may just be that the guitar is much easier (and therefore cheaper) to
build. You can afford to pay lavishly for a main stream popular
instrument, but for the second-line, lower pay gig you need to stay within
budget.

It may also be that both really died out until certain individuals.. Sor
through Segovia... started pushing such an instrument and they happened to
be guitarists.

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[LUTE] Re: EMS lutes Good or Bad

[Doctor Oakroot]

OK, here's a dumb question... Most of the lutes listed on the EMS site are
"lutes by so-and-so" (Substitute various names for so-and-so)... Are those
folks not luthiers? Why would some random luthier be better than one who
sells through EMS?

It's already been clearly demonstrated on this list that some luthiers
have no idea why or how a lute works and it's a good thing they're copying
older designs.

> Like others have suggested, I'd recommend you shop for something built by
> a
> luthier.  One I often recommend for great functionality and reasonable
> prices is .
>
> Best,
> Eugene
>
>
> At 08:27 PM 9/30/2006, Mosabi Greyfox wrote:
>
>>Greetings!
>>
>>Hi everyone! I am new to the lute list and to lutes. I have been
>> looking
>>every where for a good starter lute. I have talked to a friend of
>> mine who
>>is  a  luthier.  He  said  I  should  expect  to  spend  in  the
>> range
>>of $2500 (can) and up for a decent lute. See I am a guitar player and
>> the
>>most expensive guitar I own is only $800 so I am not in a big hurry
>> drop
>>that much cash.
>>
>>So that brings me to my question to  all of you.
>>Ihave   been   looking   at 7   course lute   made   by   EMS
>> in
>>england. [1]www.e-m-s.com
>>This model hovers around $780 can in various stores.
>>I have read a few reviews on this lute and the seem pretty good. But
>> one
>>person reviewed it as unplayable. I asked my luthier if he knew about
>> this
>>brand but he did not.
>>
>>So the question is: Is this lute a good buy? Has anyone played a
>> lower end
>>EMS?
>>
>>Thanks everyone for your time!
>>
>>Robin {Bard in training}
>>
>>References
>>
>>1. http://www.e-m-s.com/
>
>
>
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[LUTE] Re: Amazed stood Apollo there ......

[Doctor Oakroot]

Well Dionysus=intoxication vs Apollo=control certainly fits with the
respective myths. Apollo comes first when we practice to perfect our
technique, but it's not music until Dionysus pushes us to the intoxicated
limit of our practiced control.

>
>  "stravinsky literally writes: "What is important for the lucid ordering
> of the
> work - for its crystallization - is that all Dionysian elements which set
> the
> imagination of the artist in motion and make the lifespan ripe must be
> properly subjugated before they intoxicate us, and must finally be made to
> submit to the laws: Apollo demands it"
>
> This is very interesting because I find this statement to be against
> everything that I beleive about music performance. It is also the absolute
> opposite of renaissance musical performance theory as put forth by
> theorists such as Ficino. Ficino's idea of "divine frenzy" is what I look
> forward in a performance.
>
> The aim of every Pantagruel performance is intoxication and I beleive that
> is what Apollo demands.
> best wishes
> Mark
>
>
>
>
>
> -Urspr=C3=BCngliche Mitteilung-
> Von: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> An: "Undisclosed.Recipients": ;Undisclosed.Recipients:;
> Cc: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Verschickt: Fr., 22.Sept.2006, 12:10
> Thema: Re: [LUTE] Re: Hear Sting Dowland CD at amazon.de
>
>
> On Friday 22 September 2006 11:00, you wrote:
>> I still find non-emotional sounds quite frightening.
>> Maybe you have hit on what iritates me by some early music performaces
>> non-emotional romanticism. I am not sure what if any relevance the
>> philosophy of stravinsky has to early music . Mark
>>
> there is quite a relevance of stravinsky and early music. Much can be said
> about the notion of the sublime Immanuel Kant, Walter benjamin, adorno,
> the
> baroque and the romantic interpretation of this etc. David was refering to
> Taruskin who wrote especially on this subject and stravinsky is an
> important
> person in this view. Taruskin writes that "all truly modern musical
> performance (and of course that includes the authentistic variety)(, i.e.
> the
> early music movement, Taco) treats the music performed as if it were
> composed
> - or at least performed  - by stravinsky". He means to say the early music
> movement removed all 'human',  elements, i.e. a depersonalized view of
> performance in favour of abstract patterns and precision. This aesthetic
> view
> is in line with stravinsky who insisted on 'the higher mathematics of
> music'.
> stravinsky literally writes: "What is important for the lucid ordering of
> the
> work - for its crystallization - is that all Dionysian elements which set
> the
> imagination of the artist in motion and make the lifespan ripe must be
> properly subjugated before they intoxicate us, and must finally be made to
> submit to the laws: Apollo demands it"
> that's quite counter-nietzsche. Taruskin refers to this limitation of the
> performance freedom. Loyalty to the 'menschlich, allzu menschliches',
> emotion,  freedom of interpretation was removed because of this stravinsky
> view and adoption in early music movement. Stravinsky was attacking the
> wagner way of super sublime movement of the romantic period, by moving in
> the
> complete opposite side. You can also think of arguments against taruskin,
> but
> anyway, this link between stravinsky and early music was meant I think.
> Taco
>
>> -Urspr=C3=BCngliche Mitteilung-
>> Von: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>> An: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
>> Verschickt: Fr., 22.Sept.2006, 10:35
>> Thema: Re: [LUTE] Re: Hear Sting Dowland CD at amazon.de
>>
>>
>> Richard Taruskin makes a strong case for this in his article 'The
>> Pastness
>> of the Present'. Early music players play like non-motionaly involved
>> Stawinsky, not like romantically inclined Landowska.
>>
>
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[LUTE] Re: Lute stand???

[Doctor Oakroot]

Wouldn't he be playing with a plectrum in that period? Looks like he's
grasping something between thumb and index - but can't really see at this
resolution.

>
> On Sep 20, 2006, at 7:59 PM, Craig Allen wrote:
>
>> Greetings All,
>>
>> A friend sent me a link to this enggraving by Meckenem the Younger.
>>
>> http://www.artrenewal.org/asp/database/image.asp?id=24901
>>
>> Now I have seen this engraving before but she mentioned a "lute
>> stand" and upon looking more closely I see she was referring to
>> something that is sticking up under the lute between the player's
>> legs. Now in looking further this appears to extend below the stool
>> he's sitting on and I'm not convinced it's a lute stand but instead
>> a dagger on a belt. Why the player would have this in the position
>> it's in is beyond me as it seems that it would be most
>> uncomfortable and the hilt would tend to scratch the lute. Also he
>> appears to be leaning on the table to support the lute and thus an
>> additional stand might not be necessary. So I ask you all, what do
>> you think it is?
>
> I agree with everything you say. Looks like a dagger. you can see
> what could be a belt or rope that is attached to the dagger or
> possibly that is the edge of his (two) pants. It looks like a loop of
> string extends past the dagger case. That looks like a most
> uncomfortable sitting position on that triangular stool.
>
> The way the artist has drawn the fingers looks a trifle exaggerated
> to me. The RH pinky is really spread far from the others which appear
> to be touching the belly. I tried this and it is possible, just
> unusual for me. In fact it could be a position for very fast single
> line playing with m and a gliding on the surface and the pinky
> anchored. The left hand looks even more strained though with the
> thumb making  a very sharp angle at the last joint. All of his
> fingers are very thin, I guess so he can fit them in the narrow
> compass of the strings. I'd be tripping all the time if I had shoes
> like those. :-)
>
>
>
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[LUTE] Re: Lute stand???

[Doctor Oakroot]

Looks to me like he's sitting with his left leg through the back of the
chair (maybe the back is just the two extensions from the back legs) and
that's one side of the back... but that would be even more uncomfortable
than the dagger and unstable.

> Greetings All,
>
> A friend sent me a link to this enggraving by Meckenem the Younger.
>
> http://www.artrenewal.org/asp/database/image.asp?id=24901
>
> Now I have seen this engraving before but she mentioned a "lute stand" and
> upon looking more closely I see she was referring to something that is
> sticking up under the lute between the player's legs. Now in looking
> further this appears to extend below the stool he's sitting on and I'm not
> convinced it's a lute stand but instead a dagger on a belt. Why the player
> would have this in the position it's in is beyond me as it seems that it
> would be most uncomfortable and the hilt would tend to scratch the lute.
> Also he appears to be leaning on the table to support the lute and thus an
> additional stand might not be necessary. So I ask you all, what do you
> think it is?
>
> Regards,
> Craig
>
>
> ___
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[LUTE] Re: using PC as recorder

[Doctor Oakroot]

Audacity ( http://audacity.sourceforge.net/ ) if free multitrack software
that works well if your PC is reasonably new. Works for live recording
even on older machines, but hangs older machines if you try to multitrack
with it.

A $15 computer mic will do an amazingly good job for the price. But better
to get a pro mic and preamp and send the signal to the computer's line-in.
I like the Shure SM-57 or SM=58 for recording instruments, but others like
a high-end condenser (which reproduces high frequencies better).

Best is to use a preamp with a digitizer builtin (e.g. DBX 360) and send
to the SP/DIF in on your high-end sound card. (This assumes, of course,
that you have a high end sound card.)

The more expensive methods will get you a cleaner recording of course, but
any will sound pretty good - it's a matter of where the dimishing returns
cut off is for you.

> Dear All,
>
> Sorry to bother you with this but I can't seem to access old archives
> which I know contain suggestions:
>
> I'm interested in exploring the possibility of using a PC to make good
> quality lute recordings and want to know what kind of mic to use and
> which (cheap or free) software for editing, etc.  All suggestions welcome.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Martin
>
>
>
> To get on or off this list see list information at
> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>


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[LUTE] Re: Galant Continuo

[Doctor Oakroot]

> Anybody have any good comebacks for this type of
> situation?
>
I kinda liked the "yes, the knights used them in tournaments" thing, ROFL.


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[LUTE] Re: strings: direction of vibration?

[Doctor Oakroot]

This is pretty certainly true and I'd be really surprised if not true on
lute too... but I think the original question was basically about
religious conviction, not science :o)
>
>
>> What direction should the strings get their maximum vibration for an
>> optimum
>> tone?
>
> For a guitar (sorry to mention this word) this is quite clear, as John
> Taylor pointed out (in his book "Tone production on the classical
> guitar").
> Max tone comes from up-down vibration (towards the top and back).
>
> This is very easily tested on an actual instrument:
> try to pull the string perfectly sideways by quite a margin, and let it
> snap
> loose. When the direction is spot on, there's almost NO sound, while the
> vibration envelope is large. Now lift up a string at the nut end of the
> instrument, and there's a lot of sound when letting it go.
>
> On a guitar, sideways motion (although inevitable) is wasted motion.
>
> Is this the same on a lute?
>
> Paul Pleijsier
>
>
>
> To get on or off this list see list information at
> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>


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[LUTE] Re: Instruments in the cooler?

[Doctor Oakroot]

The baggage compartments on an airliner are pressurized. It would actually
be an engineering nightmare to pressurize the passenger compartment and
not the baggage.

Most of the baggage compartments are not heated, so temperature can be a
concern. But the one compartment in which gate-checked luggage (and live
animals) ride generally is heated.

> Arne Keller wrote:
>
>> A born pessimist, when I was going to Glasgow some years ago, I had
>> arranged to borrow an instrument
>> there, rather than let my own dear instrument suffer the temperature
>> and
>> pressure drop in the luggage
>> compartment.
>
> The temperature and pressure problems are greatly exaggerated in the
> popular imagination.
>
>

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[LUTE] Re: Liuto Forte

[Doctor Oakroot]

It's true, I can't afford to play an actual lute, but I've played oud and
Cumbus enough to know I really don't like double stringing. Don't like the
way it feels on my right hand fingers and don't like the chorus effect
(which interferes with detailed pitch control).

I now play lute music on a single strung gourd lute that I made myself.

> Dear Doctor Oakroot and All:
>  I must say I couldn't disagree more with what Dr. O has said about double
> stringing. It almost sounds as if he hasn't played the lute much at all.
> All the
> theory in the world will fail to convince me that this "very subtle"
> effect
> does not in fact make a huge difference both in sound and technique.
>  As for the liuto forte, if it's lightly constructed, double-strung with
> typical lute tension, and fretted in gut, what is the complaint? I've
> never seen
> or played the instrument, so I'm just playing the Devil's advocate
> here
> Cheers,
> Jim
>
>


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[LUTE] Re: Liuto Forte

[Doctor Oakroot]

Yeah, I know all about chorus effect - but on an instrument as quiet as a
lute, it's a very subtle effect. Not worth the trouble of double stringing
IMO. (Of course octave stringing is another matter. That's audible, but
mostly, I don't like it.)

>>
>
>> Sonically it's pretty trivial - you can't really hear the double
>> stringing unless the strings are out of tune.
>
> But they always are - at least slightly. Try googling "chorus effect".
>
> ...Bob
> --
>
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>


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[LUTE] Re: Liuto Forte

[Doctor Oakroot]

Sonically it's pretty trivial - you can't really hear the double stringing
unless the strings are out of tune. And must not add any volume or the
chanterelle wouldn't be single.

> "single strung" instrument, not a trivial difference between HIP lutes and
> Liuto Forte!
> Paolo
>
>
>
>
>> "Roman Turovsky" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> schrieb:
>> > >> The LF modifications are not nearly as drastic. The main being the
>> idea
>> > >> of
>> > >> gut frets absorbing vibration, while metal ones reflecting it.
>> > >
>> > > They offer their instrument with the option of either metal or gut
>> frets,
>> > > and either single or double courses. See their web site.
>> > > David
>> > The LF tension is so high that double courses on one is simply a
>> recipe for
>> > anatomic disaster.
>>
>> those LFs I was allowed to try in Salzburg in 2002 (with Mr Burguete
>> watching and listening) had normal low tension. They were lightly built,
>> single strung instruments, the main difference being that they were
>> capable of conceivably more volume than HIP lutes. That's all. Nothing
>> wrong with them, as far as I could see.
>> --
>> Best,
>>
>> Mathias
>>
>> http://de.geocities.com/mathiasroesel
>> http://mathiasroesel.livejournal.com
>> --
>>
>> To get on or off this list see list information at
>> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>>
>
>
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[LUTE] Re: Historical amplification

[Doctor Oakroot]

I suspect the concert hall could supply the table... much easier than
supplying a grand piano :o)

> Dear Craig,
>
> Agreed. I have had the same experience. I think it is important to
> have the lute resting on the table (not leaning against it), as does
> the lutenist in the Costa painting in the National Gallery, and the
> lady on the cover of Poulton and Lam's edition of Dowland. The
> difference in volume is considerable using my wooden table at home.
> However, I haven't pursued it, because
>
> 1) I find it hard to keep the lute steady, when it is on the table,
> and there is no need at home for the sound to be amplified.
>
> 2) Extra volume would be useful for public performances, but I don't
> fancy carrying a great big table around every time I have a gig.
>
> Best wishes,
>
> Stewart.
>
>
> - Original Message -
> From: "Craig Allen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: "Lute Net" 
> Sent: Friday, July 28, 2006 6:17 PM
> Subject: [LUTE] Historical amplification (was: Liuto Forte)
>
>
>> Stewart McCoy wrote:
>> >
>> >Nowadays we are expected to play to much larger audiences, and
>> >audibility can be a problem.
>>
>> I have nothing to say on the subject of the Liuto Forte, however
> the comment above of Stewart's raises an interesting side topic,
> that of historically informed amplification (for want of a better
> term).
>>
>> At the recent LSA festival in Cleveland I had the opportunity to
> attend a lecture by Chris Morongiello of the Venere Lute Quartet on
> this very subject. Using iconography from period showing lutenists
> either resting the lute on a table top or against the edge of it he
> discerned that this was not done so much to obviate the use of a
> strap, but instead to actually amplify the lute (though naturally it
> could have been done for either or both reasons). He demonstrated
> this by first playing a lute supported in the normal way so we could
> hear the sound. He then sat at a large, wooden table similar to a
> dining room table, which was itself on a wooden floor and placed the
> lute before him on the table top. There was a definite increase in
> volume that was rather impressive in such a large room (I believe
> formerly a library turned classroom).
>>
>> I mention this simply as an interesting side note to the previous
> discussion of loud lutes.
>>
>> Regards,
>> Craig
>
>
>
>
>
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>


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[LUTE] Re: Builder "disses" his own instrument

[Doctor Oakroot]

Well, the obvious thing would be to ask the seller to send you an mp3 of
something played on the instrument - then you could make your own
judgement of the sound. If it sounds good to you, buy it.

I suspect the builder does have a narrow view of the correct sound of a
vihuela - not to say that his view is wrong. But it's your opinion of the
correct sound that matters.

> I never expected a luthier to speak derisively of his own instrument,
> but I had just such an experience today and I wonder what others make of
> it.
>
> I have been considering the purchase, sight-unseen, of a used (almost
> new) vihuela. When I contacted the builder to ask him about it, he said,
> "I can't recommend that instrument. It sounds more like a guitar than a
> vihuela. Normally I would never want to make a vihuela with such a
> large, deep body. When I built that instrument, I was not following my
> own design principles, which always aim for the best possible sound.
> Instead, I followed the customer's request to build an instrument with a
> particular look. A complete novice, he wanted a vihuela that looked
> exactly like the vihuela used by a certain famous lutenist, and he
> didn't care if the result was a sound that was not quite right for the
> genre."
>
> By the way, the builder is not trying to sell me a different instrument.
> He's just saying, "Don't buy the vihuela I built that has a guitar-like
> sound."
>
> If you don't mind, please take a look at the pics. I'd like to hear
> people's opinions about this.
>
> http://img129.imageshack.us/img129/5908/mimi2006jp2000img600x450115251.jpg
> http://img131.imageshack.us/img131/5908/mimi2006jp2000img600x450115251.jpg
> http://img47.imageshack.us/img47/5908/mimi2006jp2000img600x450115251.jpg
>
> I have seen vihuela kits that sold for more than the cost of this
> lightly used finished instrument and case. So the price is attractive.
> But a "guitar-like sound?"
>
> By the way, the open string length is 60cm.
>
> One thing that did occur to me -- if it really does sound like a guitar,
> perhaps a guitarist might be interested in turning it into a guitar! How
> difficult could that be?
>
> Another thing which occured to me is, perhaps the builder simply has a
> narrowly preconceived notion of what a vihuela is supposed to sound
> like, and perhaps the sound of this instrument is sufficiently within
> the range of "vihuela" after all. However, I am inclined to suspect that
> is probably not the case. A person who can build an instrument with this
> sort of finish should be able to make a rational judgment about the
> sound. I have heard of people over-estimating the sound quality of their
> products, but I think the opposite is rather rare.
>
> Anyway, I would be very grateful for any thoughts on this.
>
> Thanks!
>
> Chris Witmer
>
>
>
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>


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[LUTE] Re: String tension

[Doctor Oakroot]

Well for horsepower you need a ampifier :)  But even a 200 watt amp is
less than one horsepower (a HP is about 750W if I remember correctly), so
you probably need a BIG PA system - one of those 2500 W jobs - for about 3
HP, lol.


> On Friday 07 July 2006 21:26, Doctor Oakroot wrote:
>> To get tension in kg, divide the N by g (gravitational acceleration at
>> the
>> surface of the Earth) or about 9.8 m/sec2. (My physics is a little
>> rusty;
>> someone who knows some physics please advise if I got that wrong).
>>
>> And yes, I know measuring tension in kg is silly, but people still do
>> it.
>
> Doc, you are right. It's much better to use 3.266,67 (or perhaps
> 3,266.66?)
> duim/sec2 from now on (or in voet/sec2 is also possible).
>
> Actually I would like to know how much horsepower I can put on my lute
> instead
> of this silly kg or newton. I'm sure that is the unit used in the US,
> right?
> Doc could you give the numbers?
>
> Taco
>
>
>
>>
>


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[LUTE] Re: String tension

[Doctor Oakroot]

To get tension in kg, divide the N by g (gravitational acceleration at the
surface of the Earth) or about 9.8 m/sec2. (My physics is a little rusty;
someone who knows some physics please advise if I got that wrong).

And yes, I know measuring tension in kg is silly, but people still do it.

>> Dear lutenists, I have been very confused lately about the right string
>> tension for my lute. For a 8 course lute in g 59 cm, what would be the
>> avarage tension in kg? All the courses must have the same tension?
>
> Have the patience to read all,
>
> http://home.planet.nl/~d.v.ooijen/david/writings/stringtension_f.html
>
> or skip to the example for a lute of 59cm (a'=440Hz):
>
> (course - note - tension in N - diameter for gut)
> 1. g' 35 N 0.40mm
> 2. d' 32 N 0.51mm
> 3. a 28 N 0.64mm
> 4. f 28 N 0.80mm
> 5. c 28 N 1.07mm
> 6. g 25 N 0.68mm
> 6. G 28 N 1.43mm
> 7. f 25 N 0.76mm
> 7. F 28 N 1.60mm
> 8. d 25 N 0.90mm
> 8. D 28 N 1.92mm
>
>
> David
>
>
> 
> David van Ooijen
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> www.davidvanooijen.nl
> 
>
>
>
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>


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[LUTE] Re: LUTE] tying gut frets

[Doctor Oakroot]

goma laca = shellac

> Hello,
>
> Let me share with you a trick related with this topic, which I learned
> last week, when I visited Jaume Bosser, a luthier who lives 1 hour away
> from Barcelona.
>
> I went to have him build a new fretnut for my viola da mano, because I
> wanted different distances between the courses, and once there I took
> profit from his experience, and asked him to change all the frets...
>
> Now here is the trick: after fastening the gut tightly around the neck,
> the luthier pushes the fret downwards using a piece of wood on which he
> applies force with a hammer. Simple, but effective! In other words, he
> does not push with the fingernails.
>
> Another trick, as a bonus. Prior to making the knot, he applies a 10%
> solution of 'goma laca' (sorry, I don't know the word in english) to the
> gut, and so it becomes a little bit sticky (the knot holds better) and
> at the same is better protected against wear.
>
> Saludos from Barcelona,
>
> Manolo Laguillo
>
> --
>
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>


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[LUTE] Re: Microphone

[Doctor Oakroot]

First, Audacity is OK for live recording (which is probably most of what
you're doing) but it causes many computers to hang if you try to play back
two tracks simultaneously - so not so good for multitracking. So if you
decide you want to record an historical ensemble with you playing all the
instruments, you may need to actually buy a program.

The ideal mic for recording a lute is a large diaphram condenser. (Some
will say small diaphram - which will record the highs more accurately but
IMO is too harsh). A really cheap mic like this will run you about $200
and you also need a preamp that can supply phantom power to the mic -
another few hundred $ at least.

You could also get pretty good results with a pro dynamic mic (Shure SM-57
for example). You'll still need a preamp between the mic and the computer
but you can probably come in 25%-50% cheaper than a condenser system.

If you really want to stay cheap - the built-in mic in your laptop is
probably a small diaphram condenser and will actually do a pretty good job
if you have a very quiet place to record. The built in mic is probably
better than a cheap Radio Shack dynamic mic that could plug straight in to
the labtop, the plug-in mic would allow you more flexible options on
positioning the mic.


> I know that there was a thread on recording with a laptop/notebook a while
> ago, but I have now got it into my head that I would like to have a go at
> recording myself to see quite how terrible it sounds when sitting on the
> other side of the instrument...
>
> I've downloaded Audacity, which seems great.  The problem is a microphone.
> I tried the crappy computer microphone which came free with the Gatway
> 2000
> that I bought in 1994 and I was most disappointed with the results(!).
>
> I've trawled round the various audio shops in parochial little Exeter, and
> rather surprisingly there was no-one who had any experience in recording
> historical plucked instruments.  So I thought I would appeal to the
> general
> wisdom of the list.
>
> I really don't want to spend very much, because I am only messing around
> (whilst I wait for the inevitable call from DG offering me that record
> contract...).  And every penny I save I can spend on lessons with Great
> Lute-Master Lindberg.  I also don't particularly want to buy any other
> bits
> of equipment - just me, a microphone and the laptop.  And the lute, of
> course.
>
> Any thoughts?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Peter
>
>
>
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[LUTE] Short tunes, was Re: New Heringman CD

[Doctor Oakroot]

Hmmm, 48 seconds per tune average.

That brings up something I've wondered about - a lot of ren lute music
seems to be very short. Did they just play lots of short pieces or was the
practice to repeat a piece several times? Do the written scores represent
themes which the player developed as he played?

> Jacob Heringman has a new CD out on Magnatune.com called "Blame Not
> My Lute" (insert joke here). A 47 minute collection of 58 Renaissance
> Lute pieces. Very solid and clear playing. Highly recommended for
> beginner and intermediate players who will likely come across these
> pieces in various collections. You can listen to all the full length
> tracks on Magnatune prior to purchase.
>
> DS
>
>
>
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> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>


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[LUTE] Re: page update

[Doctor Oakroot]

Isn't "viendo" a present participle? It would be "Watching the time pass"
I think.

> something like "I see (watch?) the time passing"?
>
>>
>>The title in spanish is "Viendo pasar el tiempo". Perhaps some of you
>>with a good knowledge of both the spanish and english languages can
>>suggest a translation...
>
>
>
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[LUTE] Re: Barto CD

[Doctor Oakroot]

Even better news from the artists' perspective is that Apple Computers
only won because they don't own the music - so they are essentially
prohibited from grabbing any publishing rights as a condition for getting
on their service :o)

> the good news is that apple computer (ipod) won the
> apple logo court case with the beatles today ... which
> means that affordable music should ... could ... might
> possibly be available from them IF! there's enough
> demand for it.
>
> not only record companies got this hand fulla' gimmie
> thing ... i was looking for a book entitiled "the
> english medieval minstrel" by john southworth and
> found 4 used copies available on amazon u.k. for the
> low-low, low-low-low price of anywhere between £59.00
> to £207(!) ... quid, that is.
>
> - bill
>
> --- Taco Walstra <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>> On Monday 08 May 2006 11:52, Gary Digman wrote:
>> > I went to Amazon to purchase the Barto/Weiss CD
>> and noticed that the
>> > Barto/Hagen CD had gone from $6.98 to $39.98! What
>> the hell is going on.
>> > Not only can't I afford to go anywhere, I can't
>> afford to stay home
>> > either.
>>
>> Buy it and sell the CD for double the price to make
>> a nice profit, because
>> amazon.de sells the same CD for Euro 106,85!
>>
>>
> http://www.amazon.de/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0JYTY/qid=1147083692/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_8_1/302-3208262-0180810
>>
>> taco
>> >
>> > Best to
>> > All,
>> > Gary
>>
>>
>>
>> To get on or off this list see list information at
>>
> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>>
>
> early music charango ... http://groups.google.com/group/charango
>
>
>
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[LUTE] Re: [Re: Lute straps]

[Doctor Oakroot]

I wouldn't even tell that to my sister (She's been principle second violin
in a couple of pro orchestras), lol. But the slavish adherence to the
written note was a significant reason for me for leaving classical (in the
broad sense) music.

> Doctor Oakroot wrote:
>
>> In an orchestra the players are acting as a sequencer and their job is
>> to
>> reproduce the written music accurately. The musical value comes from
>> the
>> conductor
>
> Don't tell that to the principal wind players.
>
>
>
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>


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[LUTE] [Re: Lute straps]

[Doctor Oakroot]

Whoops, I meant to send this to the list. (This list software sucks).

 Original Message 
Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: Lute straps
From:"Doctor Oakroot" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date:Fri, May 5, 2006 9:39 am
To:  "Roman Turovsky" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Cc:  "Doctor Oakroot" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 "Lute Net" 
--

In an orchestra the players are acting as a sequencer and their job is to
reproduce the written music accurately. The musical value comes from the
conductor - who usually has the score in front of him, but, if he's any
good, he doesn't actually need it. That's why experiments with
conductorless orchestras are generally flops.

And, no, blues isn't memorized - it's created during the performance... a
whole different art.

> HAs it ever occurred to you that all orchestral (and most small-ensemble)
> music is sightread, always?
> And all them mediocre blues are played from memory, ain't they?
> RT
>
>
>>I suspect his other 4-5 Haydn sonata (sightread) would have been just as
>> mediocre as sightread music usually is.
>>
>>>
>>> Hi all,
>>>
>>> I strongly agree with Roman of his comment below!
>>>
>>> Arto
>>>
>>> On Thu, 4 May 2006, Roman Turovsky wrote:
>>>
>>>> > Hmmm.. Tab may be hard to memorize (don't know - never tried), but
>>>> music
>>>> > isn't, lol. IMO, if you need to read to play in performance you
>>>> don't
>>>> know
>>>> > the music and you might as well just program it into a sequencer
>>>> (which
>>>> > can read it much more accurately than you can).
>>>> Lute music is not exactly "green onions", you know.
>>>> That's why even our virtuosi like to read as they play.
>>>> Not everyone thinks that memorization is such a wonderful thing.
>>>> Svyatoslav
>>>> Richter once said that if he weren't forced to play from memory he
>>>> wouldn't
>>>> be stuck with his limited [sic!] repertoire. He would have liked to
>>>> play
>>>> 5-6
>>>> Haydn sonatas in concert, rather than 1, but sightreading just wasn't
>>>> done
>>>> in the old country.
>>>> RT
>>>> ==
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> http://DoctorOakroot.com - Rough-edged songs on homemade GIT-tars.
>>
>>
>>
>> To get on or off this list see list information at
>> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>>
>
>
>


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[LUTE] Re: Lute straps

[Doctor Oakroot]

In an orchestra the players are acting as a sequencer and their job is to
reproduce the written music accurately. The musical value comes from the
conductor - who usually has the score in front of him, but, if he's any
good, he doesn't actually need it. That's why experiments with
conductorless orchestras are generally flops.

And, no, blues isn't memorized - it's created during the performance... a
whole different art.

> HAs it ever occurred to you that all orchestral (and most small-ensemble)
> music is sightread, always?
> And all them mediocre blues are played from memory, ain't they?
> RT
>
>
>>I suspect his other 4-5 Haydn sonata (sightread) would have been just as
>> mediocre as sightread music usually is.
>>
>>>
>>> Hi all,
>>>
>>> I strongly agree with Roman of his comment below!
>>>
>>> Arto
>>>
>>> On Thu, 4 May 2006, Roman Turovsky wrote:
>>>
 > Hmmm.. Tab may be hard to memorize (don't know - never tried), but
 music
 > isn't, lol. IMO, if you need to read to play in performance you
 don't
 know
 > the music and you might as well just program it into a sequencer
 (which
 > can read it much more accurately than you can).
 Lute music is not exactly "green onions", you know.
 That's why even our virtuosi like to read as they play.
 Not everyone thinks that memorization is such a wonderful thing.
 Svyatoslav
 Richter once said that if he weren't forced to play from memory he
 wouldn't
 be stuck with his limited [sic!] repertoire. He would have liked to
 play
 5-6
 Haydn sonatas in concert, rather than 1, but sightreading just wasn't
 done
 in the old country.
 RT
 ==
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> http://DoctorOakroot.com - Rough-edged songs on homemade GIT-tars.
>>
>>
>>
>> To get on or off this list see list information at
>> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>>
>
>
>


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[LUTE] Re: Lute straps

[Doctor Oakroot]

I suspect his other 4-5 Haydn sonata (sightread) would have been just as
mediocre as sightread music usually is.

>
> Hi all,
>
> I strongly agree with Roman of his comment below!
>
> Arto
>
> On Thu, 4 May 2006, Roman Turovsky wrote:
>
>> > Hmmm.. Tab may be hard to memorize (don't know - never tried), but
>> music
>> > isn't, lol. IMO, if you need to read to play in performance you don't
>> know
>> > the music and you might as well just program it into a sequencer
>> (which
>> > can read it much more accurately than you can).
>> Lute music is not exactly "green onions", you know.
>> That's why even our virtuosi like to read as they play.
>> Not everyone thinks that memorization is such a wonderful thing.
>> Svyatoslav
>> Richter once said that if he weren't forced to play from memory he
>> wouldn't
>> be stuck with his limited [sic!] repertoire. He would have liked to play
>> 5-6
>> Haydn sonatas in concert, rather than 1, but sightreading just wasn't
>> done
>> in the old country.
>> RT
>> ==
>


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[LUTE] Re: Lute straps

[Doctor Oakroot]

Hmmm.. Tab may be hard to memorize (don't know - never tried), but music
isn't, lol. IMO, if you need to read to play in performance you don't know
the music and you might as well just program it into a sequencer (which
can read it much more accurately than you can).

> Dear Stewart and list,
>
> The quote from the Burwell lute Book brings up another topic here:
> performing lute music in concert by memory.  I've read the argument
> that tablature is difficult to memorize...who knows?
>
> Do you prefer to have the tablature always in front of you?
> Personally, I'm leaning more and more in the direction of performing
> by memory.
>
> David Rastall
>
>
> On May 3, 2006, at 6:16 PM, Stewart McCoy wrote:
>
>> Dear Manolo and Katherine,
>>
>> Mouton's coat certainly gives him the choice of several buttons to
>> hook his lute on.
>>
>> One important factor not mentioned so far in this discusison, is how
>> people sat to play the lute. When this was discussed on the Italian
>> Lute Net in January 2004, I made the point that lutenists were
>> expected to sit up straight, and not crouch over the lute, hugging
>> it as so many of us do, with footstools to boot. There is less need
>> for straps and gut tied between two buttons, if you sit hunched over
>> the instrument. If you sit up straight, there is less of you to hold
>> the instrument, less purchase (in the grabbing sense), and more
>> reason to have extra paraphernalia to stop the lute slipping away. I
>> quoted a passage from folio 16r of the Burwell Lute Book, which runs
>> as follows:
>>
>> "Those that are short sighted or have a short memory are bound to
>> have allwayes there [=their] nose on there booke and soe they may
>> fall into that inconveniency Therefore wee must be diligent to take
>> them out by the booke and practise them soe well as we may play them
>> by heart and learne the time and humour of the Lesson by the Eare
>> that one might looke chearfully uppon the Company and not stoope The
>> grace and chearfullnes in playing not being lesse pleaseing then
>> [=than] the playing it selfe One must then sitt upright in playing
>> to showe noe Constrainte or paines, to have a smileing Countenance
>> that the Company may not thinke that you play unwillingly and showe
>> that you animate the Lute aswell as the Lute does animate you yet
>> you must not stirre your body nor your head nor showe any extreame
>> satisfaction in your playing You must make noe mouthes nor bite your
>> lipps nor cast your hands in a flourishing manner that relishes of a
>> fidler in one word you must not lesse please the Eyes then the
>> Eares"
>>
>> It's a pity (but understandable) that we can't send attachments to
>> the list, otherwise everyone could see Kenneth's picture of a
>> 17th-century lutenist. The young man is sitting up quite straight.
>> His eyes are not on his instrument, and there is no music in sight.
>> One imagines he would perform like a singer, looking around the room
>> as he played, not with his head buried behind a book of music, or
>> constantly staring at the movement of his left-hand fingers.
>>
>> I am sure Mary Burwell was right. What we see at a concert is an
>> important part of the performance. As performers we think of the
>> clothes we should wear, and how we should present ourselves. We may
>> shake with nerves and regret a host of wrong notes, but we still
>> look cheerful, smile, and politely acknowledge applause. When people
>> describe a concert to someone afterwards, they usually describe what
>> they saw, rather than what they heard: "He wore a pink bow-tie, and
>> kept scowling at the audience," rather than, "He played out of time
>> with a splat every bar."
>>
>> Anyway, I think there's more to those bits of gut tied behind the
>> lute, than meets the eye.
>>
>> Best wishes,
>>
>> Stewart.
>
>
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> www.rastallmusic.com
>
>
>
>
>
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[LUTE] Re: Lute on ebay germany

[Doctor Oakroot]

Looks nice. Is it a new student-quality lute? That's about what I'd expect
at that price.

> Dear lutelist
>
> As the pakistani lutes on ebay.com, there are chinese made (?) lutes on
> germany:
> http://cgi.ebay.de/RENAISSANCE-LAUTE-8-choerig-NEU_W0QQitemZ7409580350QQcategoryZ10179QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
>
> What do you think of that lute ?
>
> regards
>
>
>
>
> To get on or off this list see list information at
> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>


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[LUTE] Re: Can a total novice learn from a slightly more experienced student?

[Doctor Oakroot]

Hmmm.. want to stay on good terms with your daughter? Spring for lessons
from the teacher, lol.

> My daughter recently started taking Renaissance lute lessons and is
> making good progress -- considering that she has only been playing for
> one month.
>
> Now I'm thinking of studying lute too, but if possible I would like to
> avoid the time and expense of going to the house of my daughter's
> teacher to take lessons. I'm wondering if I could ask her to teach me.
> Some day, a decade down the road, perhaps my daughter will be a "pro,"
> but that will never be the case with me, as I'm approaching age 50 and
> have no prior experience with string instruments. I'm hoping I can get
> to the point where I can enjoy simple pieces, duets with my daughter,
> and perhaps keep my brain agile enough to delay the onset of senility by
> a few years. However, even though my goals are modest, I would like to
> avoid acquiring bad habits. Is it unreasonable to expect that my
> daughter, with only a one-month lead on me, would be able to instruct me
> properly?
>
> One reason I ask is because I know that self-instruction books for the
> lute have been published since the Renaissance, although perhaps
> "quick-pickin', fun strummin' home guitar courses" for any instrument
> always leave a lot to be desired.
>
> If I do decide to ask my daughter to teach me, can anyone recommend
> books or videos that would be especially useful?
>
> Finally, if you think it would be a good idea, I might consider having
> lessons with a bona fide lute teacher on an infrequent basis, but even
> two lessons a month (assuming I have to travel to the teacher's
> residence) would be a bit tough for me, on account of my heavy work
> schedule. (In fact, I'm thinking that I'll do most of my practicing
> during my lunch break at work.)
>
> Thanks for your advice!
>
> Chris Witmer
>
>
>
> To get on or off this list see list information at
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>


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[LUTE] Re: What is it?

[Doctor Oakroot]

Pibcorn = hornpipe (pib=pipe, corn=horn - word order in Welsh compounds is
generally reverse of English)

> ON Sat, 15 Apr 2006 06:58:13 -0700 A.J. Padilla, M.D. wrote:
>
>> An "aboka".  Interesting.  The French website describes it as a basque
> instrument, with the name derived from Arabic. ...
>
> Well double clarinets, with the pipes of the same length, are fairly
> widespread. In 'alboka', the player blows into a horn to get the reeds
> vibrating, like a sort of mouthpiece in a trumpet I suppose, and hence its
> name. Plus there is a horn on the other side to make it sound louder.
> There is a Welsh equivalent to 'alboka' - called 'pibcorn'. (Is there
> anybody who knows Welsh on the list who can tell what it means?)
>
> There are also mouth-blown double clarinets without a horn attached, such
> as 'zummara' (India), 'argun' (Turkey), 'cifte' (Greece) etc.
>
> AB
>
> --
>
> To get on or off this list see list information at
> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>


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[LUTE] Re: Building a fine action.

[Doctor Oakroot]

Acoustic instruments usually have higher action than electric guitars and
consequently a great absolute error tolerance. And gut (and nylon) are
considerable more forgiving than steel.

Beyond that, it's careful measurement, careful construction, and a good
set of files for adjusting the nut and bridge... oh, and a lot of
patience.

>
> From my experience in setting up electric guitars, a good action
> has an error tolerance of 1-3 thousandths of an inch (string to
> fret clearance).
>
> It seems remarkable that lute builders achieve this without
> adjustment screws.  Is this a matter of holding the neck exactly
> in place while the glue dries?
>
>
>
> To get on or off this list see list information at
> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>


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[LUTE] Re: Predicting quality during construction.

[Doctor Oakroot]

I haven't tried enough lutes to know for sure that this applies... but if
you go to a music store and try out a bunch of exactly the same model of
guitar some will be great and some will suck (and most will be
in-between). And that's instruments off a production line that should
really be identical.

I don't think anyone's making lutes (except ouds maybe) on a production
line. One would expect hand made lutes to have even more variation.

>
> To what extent is the quality of a lute unknown and
> unpredictable during its construction?  In other words,
> is there a "moment of truth" when the new lute is strung
> up and played for the first time?
>
>
>
>
> To get on or off this list see list information at
> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>


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[LUTE] Re: fret spacing: dowland vs mathematics

[Doctor Oakroot]

Well, first, if you use his mathematical method, you compound your
measurement error at every fret, so, of course it sound out of tune. Each
fret should be measured from the nut.

Second, Dowland's instructions have a big error in the placement of the
seventh fret (unless I'm just completely missunderstanding what he's
saying)... and it's really hard to do things like divide a measure into
elevenths... If you're tying on the frets, why not just do it by ear?

BTW, I have a spreadsheet that will give you fret placement for
Pythagorean tuning at
http://doctoroakroot.com/tools/Pythagorean_Fret_Calculator.xls - much
easier than Dowland :o)

> on this site:
>
> http://www.shipbrook.com/jeff/frets.html#fn1
>
> .. jeff lee has kindly posted a modern
> transliteration of dowland's fret spacing method and a
> mathematical formula for calculating same.
>
> he prefers the dowland to the math method as it "...
> sounds extremely out of tune compared to dowland's
> spacing.
>
> has anyone had comparable experience?
>
> i'll be tying frets onto my oud ("lude") when it
> returns from the luthier and would like them to be as
> precise as possible.
>
> thank you - bill
>
> early music charango ... http://groups.google.com/group/charango
>
>
>
> ___
> To help you stay safe and secure online, we've developed the all new
> Yahoo! Security Centre. http://uk.security.yahoo.com
>
>
>
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>


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[LUTE] Re: The happy camper with her first lute

[Doctor Oakroot]

When I was studying bass fiddle, some 30 years ago, my bow cost $2000.
$6000 for a cello bow now sounds pretty cheap. (I'll stick to building my
own instruments for <$50 each, thank you, lol)

> For a beginner?
>
>
> Christopher Witmer wrote:
>
>> after visiting a shop that specializes in violins and cellos to get a
>> cello for another daughter who is starting cello, I will no longer
>> complain about the prices of lutes. My other daughter's cello teacher
>> generously arranged for her to get the use of a $20,000 cello for free
>> (for which I am, as you must imagine, extremely grateful), but there
>> were other cellos there costing more than 10 times that much. Yikes!
>> And
>> the bows! Good grief! A few days ago, if you had told me I would be
>> spending $6,000 for a wooden stick with a horsehair ribbon attached to
>> it, I would have suggested you go get your head examined. Now I'm the
>> one who needs to get his head examined. I called professional cellist X
>> to ask her opinion of professional cellist Y's recommendation of a
>> $6,000 bow for a beginning student, and she said, "If Y recommended the
>> bow, you had better get it. His opinion is entirely trustworthy. The
>> store will buy it back for almost the entire purchase price if you ever
>> want to get rid of it, so think of it as an interest-free loan to the
>> shop. You could get a bow for one-fifth the price, but you would not
>> recover the purchase price when you eventually move up to a more
>> expensive bow later."
>
>
>
> To get on or off this list see list information at
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>


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[LUTE] Re: The happy camper with her first lute

[Doctor Oakroot]

Parenting tip: It's OK to say "we'll buy you the first one, but you'll
have to buy any additional lutes with your own hard-earned money."

>> heard about the bow) is saying, "Honey, let's encourage the other kids
>> to take up lute, where the prices are not so outrageous. It's hard to
>
> Indeed, but lutes tend to multiply. It's a bit like with pets. You start
> with one, after a while you think another one would be nice and before you
> know it you have a house full of them.
>
> David - stopped counting
>
>
>
>
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>


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[LUTE] Re: Antique tools.

[Doctor Oakroot]

Older tools were made of carbon steel which can be sharpened to a very
fine edge, but is soft enough to dull with use.

Modern tools use harder alloys which do not dull (at least not in your
lifetime with reasonable use), but can't be easily resharpened, reshaped,
and maybe can't be as sharp as carbon steel.

For the typical home handyman, the modern tools are better because they
require less care. But for a serious craftsman, the older tools may be
better (depending on the temperament of the craftsman).

The above explanation is, of course, over-simplified.

>
> Larry Brown (on his website) says that many of his tools are
> antique, and superior to their modern counterparts.
>
> The man's woodworking expertise is obvious (and probably
> also not obvious).
>
> So I wonder how it is that Craftsman, Black & Decker, and Stanley,
> with their engineers, experience, capital, and tremendous manufacturing
> resources, do not compete effectively in this area.
>
>
>
> To get on or off this list see list information at
> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>


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Re: pipa

[Doctor Oakroot]

The apostrophes in old style transliteration indicate a puff of air. So p'
is pronounced like initial English p and p is pronounced like Italian p.
In modern pinyin transliteration these sounds are spelled p and b
respectively.

> "Steve Amazeen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> schrieb:
>> How lucky!  The p'i p'a is an amazing instrument.
>
> often seen this transcription of the instrument's name, wonder how to
> pronounce it (because of the apostrophees = stress?).
>
> Best,
>
> Mathias
> --
>
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>


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Re: How the 'Old Ones' held the lute

[Doctor Oakroot]

On second (or is it third?) thought, the sound board is hold the tension
of the strings which is much more than the weight of the oud. I think it
could take it. (The roses may be a different issue).

> boo ... hisss ...
>
> the soundboard is much too fragile and it would damage
> the roses.
>
> - bill
>
> --- Doctor Oakroot <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> Does your oud have three sound holes (usual for
>> ouds)? You could run the
>> thong in one of the side holes and out the other.
>> Avoids interference with
>> the strings and the oud couldn't slip out of the
>> harness.
>>
>> > because the group in which i play tends to walk
>> around
>> > while performing, i tried putting a very simple
>> > harness on my oud made from leather thong boot
>> laces.
>> > i was warned against it, saying i'll be sorry when
>> i
>> > drop the oud ... ahh ... but i was so much older
>> then
>> > ..
>> >
>>
>>
>> --
>> http://DoctorOakroot.com - Rough-edged songs on
>> homemade GIT-tars.
>>
>>
>>
>> To get on or off this list see list information at
>>
> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>>
>
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>


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Re: How the 'Old Ones' held the lute

[Doctor Oakroot]

Oh, didn't think about that. The sound board on my oud could take it just
fine, and it doesn't have any roses. (It's a really cheap oud - got it in
a pawn shop for $40). Might depend on the weight of the instrument too -
mine is really light, but an Egyptian one might be too heavy for that.

> boo ... hisss ...
>
> the soundboard is much too fragile and it would damage
> the roses.
>
> - bill
>
> --- Doctor Oakroot <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> Does your oud have three sound holes (usual for
>> ouds)? You could run the
>> thong in one of the side holes and out the other.
>> Avoids interference with
>> the strings and the oud couldn't slip out of the
>> harness.
>>
>> > because the group in which i play tends to walk
>> around
>> > while performing, i tried putting a very simple
>> > harness on my oud made from leather thong boot
>> laces.
>> > i was warned against it, saying i'll be sorry when
>> i
>> > drop the oud ... ahh ... but i was so much older
>> then
>> > ..
>> >
>>
>>
>> --
>> http://DoctorOakroot.com - Rough-edged songs on
>> homemade GIT-tars.
>>
>>
>>
>> To get on or off this list see list information at
>>
> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>>
>
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>


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Re: How the 'Old Ones' held the lute

[Doctor Oakroot]

Does your oud have three sound holes (usual for ouds)? You could run the
thong in one of the side holes and out the other. Avoids interference with
the strings and the oud couldn't slip out of the harness.

> because the group in which i play tends to walk around
> while performing, i tried putting a very simple
> harness on my oud made from leather thong boot laces.
> i was warned against it, saying i'll be sorry when i
> drop the oud ... ahh ... but i was so much older then
> ..
>


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Re: LUTE-etymology

[Doctor Oakroot]

Well, as a native English speaker, I would say "leather" definitely does
not include "parchment" (even though they're made from the same raw
material). Depending on the speaker, it may not even include "skin" (from
a dead animal as opposed to on a living animal) which is another likely
lute (in the broad sense) covering material.

>>> "FYI", there are no references to leather soundboards. Parchment, yes;
>>
>> well, there are. Take a look into good old Oswald Koerte's thesis. He
>> cites related Arabic authors. And, okay, parchment does not qualify as
>> leather to you, obviously. To me, it does.
> As it should, to most people. Or at least to those who know what parchment
> is made of.
> RT
>
>
>
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>


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Re: LUTE-etymology

[Doctor Oakroot]

If LEUTIKA is a familiar Greek word, I wonder why the only online
reference I can find to it is the name of some guy who got murdered. I did
find a lot of words for ships and boats in Greek - none significantly
similar to LUTE though.

How old is this word? Could it be an independent borrowing from Arabic (al
'ud means "the wood" - could easily refer to a wooden boat)? Or could the
word for the boat have derived from shape of a lute after the lute
appeared in Europe?

Well, if I could find any reference to the word I might track it down.
What is the Spanish cognate?

>>> There is a fascinating discussion on the etymology of LUTE on the
>>> French
>>> lute-list. In a nutshell: not only the Greek provenance of the word is
>>> no
>>> longer discountable, but limiting oneself to Arabic provenance is
>>> beginning
>>> to look ludicrous. The messages can be found on Yahoo-Groups.
>>
>> Unfortunately, I do not speak French. Would you mind to keep us
>> informed?
> Not at all, happy to oblige:
> In many European languages there are LUTE-like words that describe MARINE
> VESSELS of obvious derivation from the familiar Greek (HA)LEUTIKA, in
> Italian, Spanish, Catalan, French, AND last but not least- Slavonic
> languages.
> This certainly is corroborated by the iconographic evidence of lutes
> predating Muslims' spewing out of Hijaz.
> RT
>
> --
> http://polyhymnion.org/torban
>
>
>
> To get on or off this list see list information at
> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>


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Re: LUTE-etymology

[Doctor Oakroot]

What Greek word(s) is a candidate for the etymology of LUTE?

> There is a fascinating discussion on the etymology of LUTE on the French
> lute-list. In a nutshell:
> not only the Greek provenance of the word is no longer discountable, but
> limiting oneself to Arabic provenance is beginning to look ludicrous.
> The messages can be found on Yahoo-Groups.
> RT
> __
> Roman M. Turovsky
> http://polyhymnion.org/swv
>
>
>
>
> To get on or off this list see list information at
> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>


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Re: Beards

[Doctor Oakroot]

I have a beard. In fact, I have no idea how to shave so I 'm stuck with
it, lol.



Carl Donsbach wrote:
> I wore a beard for a while.  It taxed my patience until I lost it in a
> shaving accident.
>
>
> --On Sunday, December 12, 2004 6:50 PM -0500 Bob Purrenhage
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>> I, too, have a beard (but not just for the record). Would that be a
>> 'value-added' tax I'd pay? a progressive tax if I keep growing it
>> longer??
>>
>> Bob Purrenhage
>>
>> 
>> Stewart McCoy wrote:
>>
>>> Dear Roman,
>>>
>>> I am aghast at the thought of a beard tax, which you mention in
>>> connection with Peter the Great. A great many lutenists today have
>>> beards.
>>>
>>> I would be interested to know what percentage of contributors to
>>> this list have beards. My guess is that it would be surprisingly
>>> high, maybe more than 30%, even allowing for female contributors.
>>>
>>> Just for the record, I have a beard.
>>>
>>> Best wishes,
>>>
>>> Stewart.
>>>
>
>
>
> To get on or off this list see list information at
> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>


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Re: McFarlane Workshop in Durham NC

[Doctor Oakroot]

Is there any info on this workshop anywhere? What I found in the archives
wasn't very useful.

I hate to travel to the benighted and fascist city of Durham, but might if
I could learn something useful, lol.

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Re: 'But' again

[Doctor Oakroot]

Eugene C. Braig IV wrote:
> At 01:07 PM 9/23/2004, Howard Posner wrote:
>>Stewart McCoy wrote:
>>
>> full of tritones.
>>
>>I suppose children are taught not to start sentences with prepositions
>>because the results are so bad when they do.  But then we grow up and put
>>aside some of the rules of childhood.  We cross the street by ourselves,
>> go
>>to bed late, go places without asking permission, have sex, run for
>>political office, and start sentences with prepositions.
>
>
> Um, I think you mean "conjunctions" instead of "prepositions" here,
> Howard.  Start as many sentences a you'd like with prepositions, but don't
> end a sentence with one (emitting a private chuckle...) at.
>
> E

Actually you can't end a sentence with a preposition because then it would
not be "pre"-positioned. OTOH English has many word that look like
prepositions but are really verbal particles and make perfectly good
sentence enders.

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Re: why paintings but no lutes

[Doctor Oakroot]

If the mob were at the gate, I'd definitely grab my instrument, lol.


bill wrote:
> at the risk of causing offense - paintings have more value.  if the mob
> was at the gate and there was only seconds to spare, i think i'd opt
> for the caneletto too.
>
>
>


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Rough-edged songs from a dark place in the soul:
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Re: Why paintings but no lutes?

[Doctor Oakroot]

The thing is, when a lute stops being a musician's working tool (e.g. the
musician dies or gets a new lute) it becomes a piece of junk that's too
much trouble to take care of.



Herbert Ward wrote:
>
>> My not-so-scholarly take:
>> Good lutes were working tools and subject to the whims and clumsiness of
>> working musicians.  Paintings were valuable decoration to be preserved
>> well
>> out of the way of trouble.
>
>
> Seems like the owners would have been more careful than to have destroyed
> _all_ of their lutes.  But I've never climbed onto a horse with a lute, so
> perhaps I should be more understanding.
>
>
>


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Rough-edged songs from a dark place in the soul:
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Re: Girl with the Pearl Earing

[Doctor Oakroot]

It looks pretty realistic to me.


> The pistagne looks as if it was a whool twisted strand: I can't imagine
> the
> way you would realise this in wood.

My guitarron (Mexican bass guitar) has a very similar border made from
alternating pieces of different colored wood.
>
> Certainly the rosette looks rather odd - but this may be  something to do
> with the state of the painting.

Can't tell from the online image. Looks like the rosette might be a
picture rather than an abstract design, but that's certainly believable.

> What I have always thought is rather strange is the way she is holding the
> instrument- especially the position of the left hand.  It is almost as if
> she was using the thumb to stop the lower courses.

I've seen an awful lot of modern untrained guitar players hold their left
hands just like that - it's a natural comfortable position. Also common
with thinner necked instruments like a violin - or a 4-course guitar.

>The right hand looks
> as
> if she is playing "thumb inside" which is not a very convenient position
> for
> strumming chords.
>
Looks like thumb-in to me. With her little finger anchored to the sound
board, I doubt she's strumming. I've heard a lot about renaissance guitar
players strumming, but all the written music I've seen was obviously
intended to be plucked like a lute.

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Re: Girl with the Pearl Earing

[Doctor Oakroot]

One reviewer I heard on the radio said so little was known about the
artist and his model that everything except the actual paintings was a
wild guess. (I haven't seen the movie yet).



Monica Hall wrote:
> And the baroque guitar - featured in one of his most famous painting which
> I
> regular pay hommage to  at Kenwood House in North London.  The question is
> -
> were these models actually playing the instruments are are they just
> props.
> The lady playing the guitar is wearing the yellow jacket bordered with
> ermine featured in several other paintings too.
>
> If the film is anything like most "historical" movies everything except
> the
> music will be authentic.
>
>
> Monica
>
>
>
> - Original Message -
> From: James A Stimson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: Patrick H <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Cc: Lute List <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Monday, January 05, 2004 11:06 PM
> Subject: Re: Girl with the Pearl Earing
>
>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Dear Patrick and All:
>>  Even more interesting would be whether the film features a cittern.
>> Such
>> an instrument (apparently the same instrument, a tenor with a striped
> back)
>> is featured in no fewer than five of Vermeer's paintings.
>> Yours,
>> Jim
>>
>>
>>
>> |-+>
>> | |   Patrick H|
>> | |   <[EMAIL PROTECTED]|
>> | |   com> |
>> | ||
>> | |   01/05/2004 12:30 |
>> | |   PM   |
>> | ||
>> |-+>
>>
>>---
> ---|
>>   |
> |
>>   |   To:   Lute List <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> |
>>   |   cc:
> |
>>   |   Subject:  Girl with the Pearl Earing
>|
>>
>>---
> ---|
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> I had a chance to see a preview of the Johannes Vermeer movie, Girl with
>> a
>> Pearl Earing, several weeks ago, but due to a bad storm I missed it.  I
>> have since seen the preview, and there are scenes of Vermeer with his
>> models painting.   I was wondering if anyone had seen the movie yet, and
>> whether any lutes were featured?   Either on the soundtrack or being
> played
>> by the models.
>>
>>
>> -
>> Do you Yahoo!?
>> Find out what made the Top Yahoo! Searches of 2003
>> --
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>


-- 
Rough-edged songs from a dark place in the soul:
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Re: Ukulele and chitarrino?

[Doctor Oakroot]

BTW, I regularly play renaissance guitar music on my baritone uke (which
is tuned like the top 4 on a guitar) and it works great.

Of course the uke is a direct descendant of the renaissance guitar... but
by way of the modern guitar. That is, after the development of the six
string guitar, the Portuguese developed a number of small variants, one of
which found it's way to Hawaii where it was duplicated.

Arto Wikla wrote:
>
> Hi all
>
> On Friday 02 January 2004 01:50, Bill Sterling wrote:
>> ?
>>
>> http://www.crane.gr.jp/HyperUkuleleSchool/hyper-U/Weiss/Passagaille_1.gif
>
> I made a few ukulele searchs by Google, and to my astonishment the
> little guitar is often tuned in  g c e a  in re-entrant way (so the
> "low" 4th string is a fifth higher than the 3rd string.
>
> This tuning is like the renaissance guitar (chitarrino) tuning.
> (Well, the chitarrino has both the high and low g in the 4th course.)
>
> Anyhow, some of the google found pages could tell that one Portuguese
> instrument was taken to Ocean islands in 19th celtury, and that instrument
> gave the idea for ukulele.
>
> Does the collective List Wisdom happen to know, if it really is so that
> the ukulele is a direct(?) descendant of renaissance guitar?
> And is there anything in common in the playing technique?
>
> Arto
>
>
>


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Re: Odd tablature notation

[Doctor Oakroot]

Doctor Oakroot wrote:
> The IV indicates a IV chord (i.e., F min in the key of C min). Play the
> tab. That's what it's there for.

Whoops, that's an F major. (Wasn't looking at the score when I wrote that
and missed the natural sign).

As for the split course stuff, can anyone actually play that without it
sounding like crap? Seems like it would be easier to play this:

---
-5-
-4-
-3-
---
---

>
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>> There are a couple of pieces in a book that I
>> have of the lute music of Vincenzo Capirola.
>> Here is an example:
>>
>>  http://tobiah.org/measure.jpg
>>
>> It seems to indicate that a half bar should
>> be used at the fourth fret, but I can't figure
>> out any way to get a reasonable sound by playing
>> the measure that way, let alone get the pitches
>> that are indicated on the grand staff.
>>
>> It sounds correct if I just play the grand staff
>> as written, ignoring the IV{ marking, but I feel
>> that I am missing something.
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Tobiah
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Rough-edged songs from a dark place in the soul:
> http://DoctorOakroot.com
>
>
>


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Re: Odd tablature notation

[Doctor Oakroot]

The IV indicates a IV chord (i.e., F min in the key of C min). Play the
tab. That's what it's there for.

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> There are a couple of pieces in a book that I
> have of the lute music of Vincenzo Capirola.
> Here is an example:
>
>   http://tobiah.org/measure.jpg
>
> It seems to indicate that a half bar should
> be used at the fourth fret, but I can't figure
> out any way to get a reasonable sound by playing
> the measure that way, let alone get the pitches
> that are indicated on the grand staff.
>
> It sounds correct if I just play the grand staff
> as written, ignoring the IV{ marking, but I feel
> that I am missing something.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Tobiah
>
>
>


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Rough-edged songs from a dark place in the soul:
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Re: Horns (was Lewd, not lute music)

[Doctor Oakroot]

James A Stimson wrote:
>
> The audience was marveling at the fact that the notes
> were in tune...

That's how I feel when I hear a horn (valved or natural) playing in
tune... something which happenes far too rarely.

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[Fwd: Re: John Cage on Lute]

[Doctor Oakroot]

Stupid lute list - gotta send everything twice, lol

 Original Message 
Subject: Re: John Cage on Lute
From:"Doctor Oakroot" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date:Fri, December 19, 2003 11:57 am
To:  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
--

Someone's missing the point :)

The point of 4'33" is what happens in the room when the audience is
exposed to it - it's music as performance art (but before anyone had
conceived of performance art).

Like performance art, a sense of humor is required.

The resulting art is at least as musical as, say, serialism. (Which I
mention because I've just been listening to a CD of my own serialist
compositions - didn't use any lutes, but I may next time.)



Thomas Schall wrote:
> If I could regard this as a joke it would be a fine idea but if I recall
right Cage really thought to be a serious composer.
> Reminds me on a german band (I think it was "Einstuerzende Neubauten")
which recorded a similar piece called "Nichts" (nothing) in the 80's.
>
> Strawinski's comment propably meant any time Cage spends with nothing is
better than if he would produce tones ...
>
> Thomas
>
> Am Fre, 2003-12-19 um 16.05 schrieb Howard Posner:
>
>> Roman Turovsky at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>>
>> > Was the piece that requires no playing? I forget the title, something
>> like
>> > "4.32". Just sit for 4 and a half minutes and take your bows.
>>
>> Close.  It was 4'33" (as in four minutes, 33 seconds) and involves
slightly
>> (but not much) more than just sitting.  The first performance (this is an
>> account, mind you, written by someone who thought the piece worth writing
>> about) in 1952 went like this:
>>
>> "Tudor placed the hand-written score, which was in conventional
notation with blank measures, on the piano and sat motionless as he
used a stopwatch
>> to measure the time of each movement. The score indicated three silent
movements, each of a different length, but when added together totalled
four
>> minutes and thirty-three seconds. Tudor signaled its commencement by
lowering the keyboard lid of the piano. The sound of the wind in the
trees
>> entered the first movement. After thirty seconds of no action, he
raised the
>> lid to signal the end of the first movement. It was then lowered for
the second movement, during which raindrops pattered on the roof. The
score was
>> in several pages, so he turned the pages as time passed, yet playing
nothing
>> at all. The keyboard lid was raised and lowered again for the final
movement, during which the audience whispered and muttered."
>>
>> You can read all about it at www.azstarnet.com/~solo/4min33se.htm.
>>
>> Stravinsky remarked that he hoped we could have similar works of major
length from Cage.
>>
>> HP
>
> --
> Thomas Schall
> Niederhofheimer Weg 3
> D-65843 Sulzbach
> 06196/74519
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> www.lautenist.de / www.tslaute.de/weiss
>
> --
>


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Re: new recording

[Doctor Oakroot]

I was just listening to it on magnatune. Very nice.

On 16 Dec 2003 at 22:25, doc rossi wrote:

> I hope such announcements are acceptable on this list.  I wanted to let 
> you know that a recording of Pasqualini Demarzi's  sonatas for Cetra is 
> now available.  Here's the link:
> 
> http://www.magnatune.com/artists/docrossi
> 
> Andrea Damiani plays archlute and baroque guitar, I play cittern.
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Doc
> 
> 
> 




Doctor Oakroot
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Rough-edged songs from a dark place in the soul: 
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Re: Fw: calling Dr. Helmholtz...

[Doctor Oakroot]

Ed Margerum wrote:
> At 9:57 PM -0800 12/14/03, Vance Wood wrote:
>>
>>>  Hi Bill:
>>>
>>>  Freud said it best: "Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar".  I was once
>>> told
>>>  that the rose was to keep rats from nesting in the Lute.  I suppose
>>> that
>>>  makes about as much sense or nonsense depending on which side of the
>>debate
>>  > you happen to stand.
>
> A rat in a lute isn't impossible.  A brass instrument repairman I
> know was recently asked to repair a tuba.  He found the problem, a
> blockage caused by a desiccated rat.
>
> Ed Margerum
>
I don't think a rat would have any trouble chewing through a rosette, so I
doubt that's the explanation. Playing one's lute daily would probably
prevent rats from nesting.


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Re: (OT) linguistics (was Vihuela and Murphy)

[Doctor Oakroot]

Stewart McCoy wrote:
> You use fricatives every day. There's even one in the word
> "fricative".
Two, actually.

> My knowledge of Celtic
> languages is fairly limited, but my guess is that the name you
> mention - O'Suilleabhain - involved a bi-labial fricative at some
> stage in its history. The clue for me is the "h", suggesting that
> the "b" is/was softened in some way.

The 'h' is a transliteration convention. In Irish script, the sound is
written as a 'b' with a dot over it. It is usually an historic 'b' that
has been softened by the preceeding sound (in some cases the softening is
the only remaining indication of a grammatical ending on the preceeding
word). So, being a mutated 'b', it probably was bilabial at some point.
(An in some situations/dialects 'bh' is pronounce 'w', which is a bilabial
glide, i.e., a softened fricative).

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Re: Names (olim Vihuela)

[Doctor Oakroot]

Leonard Williams wrote:
>  Wales/Gales,

Just for the record, the proper name is Cymru. Wales is a Saxon word
meaning foreign.


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Re: selling and buying

[Doctor Oakroot]

Considering the relative cost of a lute compared to a train ticket in
Europe, why not take a vacation in Austria and hand deliver the lute?

Gert de Vries wrote:
> Dear all,
>
> I have a lute for sale, and I live in Holland, and now someone who lives =
> in Austria wants to buy it.
> But we don't know how to arrange this, with shipping and paying. Is =
> there anyone who has some
> experience with this?=20
>
> Thanks, Gert
> --
>


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Re: Current ongoing topics

[Doctor Oakroot]

Good idea, Jon.

Of course, then as now, it was strongly opposed by one of our more
prolific flamers... proving your thesis, I suppose, :)



Roman Turovsky wrote:
>
>> Some time ago I suggested to
>> Wayne (Wayne please note) that he set the list to have a prefix of
>> (Lutelist) to the subject line by the listserv. He said he had suggested
>> it,
>> but the members of the list had not liked the idea (Wayne, if I misquote
>> you
>> please correct me, I'm operating on my fading memory).
>>
>> It is probable that some on this list, and probably including the most
>> prolific, have little other email. But others may have a lot of
>> legitimate
>> email coming in. I belong to the Harp List (which adds that
>> parenthetical to
>> the subject line),
> It resulted in the multiple "Lute" prefix  that obliterated the subject
> after 2 responses.
> RT
> __
> Roman M. Turovsky
> http://turovsky.org
> http://polyhymnion.org
>
>
>
>
>


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Re: a rosette by any other name...

[Doctor Oakroot]

Hmmm... it's truly amazing that there's one physics for lutes and an
exactly opposite physics for globular flutes (which certainly behave the
way Bob described). Maybe it's the 'f' on the start of the name that
reverses things, lol.

Seriously, the resonance of the fixed sized chamber is determined by how
fast air can move in and out. bigger hole=more air in a given time=faster
movement=higher frequency. Run that by your physicist friend.

Michael Thames wrote:
> Dear Doctor,
>   Actually I just looked this up in my book here, and I will explain it
> like
> this.
>  One needs a fixed, solid air cavity with an opening.  As one
> increases
> the size of the opening it lowers the air space resonance, period!that is
> science. Bob actually has it ass backwards!
> I actually don't really get what Bob is talking about because he is
> not
> using science and I have a hard time following him.
>   Bob talks about blowing into the soundhole and hearing something.
>   What Bob is actually hearing is what is called "mode coupling". that is
> a
> phenomena were you are hearing both the air resonat frequency coupling
> with
> the frequency of the vibrating plates to create one frequency,as on a lute
> or guitar.
>If however, the plates where not able to vibrate and had a fixed air
> cavity you would only hear the air resonance frequency.
>This really is not up for debate it is pure science, no matter how Bob
> trys to sell it!
> Michael Thames
> Luthier
> www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com
> Site design by Natalina Calia-Thames
> - Original Message -
> From: "Doctor Oakroot" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Thursday, December 11, 2003 9:41 PM
> Subject: Re: a rosette by any other name...
>
>
>> Michael, your physicist friend didn't understand the problem. As Bob
>> described it the amount of beer in the bottle during the experiment was
>> fixed. Only the size of the opening changed.
>>
>> Michael Thames wrote:
>> > I've just spoken to my physicist friend, and he explained it like
>> this.
>> > When you have a beer bottle and blow into it,  the pitch changes
> according
>> > to how much beer ( air volume) is in the bottle.
>> >Bob, what has the most significant effect on the pitch is how much
> beer
>> > you consumed during your experiment!
>> > Michael Thames
>> > Luthier
>> > www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com
>> > Site design by Natalina Calia-Thames
>> > - Original Message -
>> > From: "BobClair or EkkoJennings" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> > Sent: Thursday, December 11, 2003 8:48 AM
>> > Subject: a rosette by any other name...
>> >
>> >
>> >>
>> >> Philippe Mottet <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
>> >>
>> >> > I think M. Thames is right when he mentions that a bigger opening,
>> a
>> >> > rosette with a longer diameter and an airy (?) motive, tends to
>> favor
>> > bass
>> >> > and fundamental resonances.
>> >>
>> >> And you, also, would be incorrect. I'm not trying to be mean or rude,
>> >> you
>> > are entitled to
>> >> believe whatever makes you happy. But unlike some more subjective
>> >> things,
>> > like whether a
>> >> note is "sparkling" or not, the pitch of the main air resonance of a
>> > guitar or lute or violin
>> >> and what happens to that pitch as you make the hole(s) in the top
>> >> smaller
>> > (it goes down) are objective
>> >> things that you can easily measure with a simple experiment. They are
> no
>> > more influenced by how you think
>> >> or feel about them than is the height of the Eiffel tower.
>> >>
>> >> As for "this particular rose design causes those particular tonal
>> > qualities" - there are just way too many
>> >> variables involved. Making such a statement on the basis of one or
>> two
>> > instruments is nothing more
>> >> than a superstition. To make any meaningful statement you would have
>> to
>> > make two batches of otherwise
>> >> identical instruments with twodifferent rose patterns and then show
>> >> that,
>> > on average, a pair with different
>> >> roses had a significant difference in the quality you were testing
>> for
>> > compared to a pair with the same rose design.
>> >> A

Re: a rosette by any other name...

[Doctor Oakroot]

Michael, your physicist friend didn't understand the problem. As Bob
described it the amount of beer in the bottle during the experiment was
fixed. Only the size of the opening changed.

Michael Thames wrote:
> I've just spoken to my physicist friend, and he explained it like this.
> When you have a beer bottle and blow into it,  the pitch changes according
> to how much beer ( air volume) is in the bottle.
>Bob, what has the most significant effect on the pitch is how much beer
> you consumed during your experiment!
> Michael Thames
> Luthier
> www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com
> Site design by Natalina Calia-Thames
> - Original Message -
> From: "BobClair or EkkoJennings" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Thursday, December 11, 2003 8:48 AM
> Subject: a rosette by any other name...
>
>
>>
>> Philippe Mottet <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
>>
>> > I think M. Thames is right when he mentions that a bigger opening, a
>> > rosette with a longer diameter and an airy (?) motive, tends to favor
> bass
>> > and fundamental resonances.
>>
>> And you, also, would be incorrect. I'm not trying to be mean or rude,
>> you
> are entitled to
>> believe whatever makes you happy. But unlike some more subjective
>> things,
> like whether a
>> note is "sparkling" or not, the pitch of the main air resonance of a
> guitar or lute or violin
>> and what happens to that pitch as you make the hole(s) in the top
>> smaller
> (it goes down) are objective
>> things that you can easily measure with a simple experiment. They are no
> more influenced by how you think
>> or feel about them than is the height of the Eiffel tower.
>>
>> As for "this particular rose design causes those particular tonal
> qualities" - there are just way too many
>> variables involved. Making such a statement on the basis of one or two
> instruments is nothing more
>> than a superstition. To make any meaningful statement you would have to
> make two batches of otherwise
>> identical instruments with twodifferent rose patterns and then show
>> that,
> on average, a pair with different
>> roses had a significant difference in the quality you were testing for
> compared to a pair with the same rose design.
>> At this point it would be wise to recall a statement attributed to
>> Michael
> Lowe: "An exact copy of a historical instrument ?
>> I can't even make an exact copy of one of my own instruments."
>>
>> Pendulums ? Divining ? Dowsing? Mysterious Energy ? My contract with the
> Physicist's Union has a clause limiting
>> the amount of time I have to spend arguing with believers so I will just
> leave with a single
>> word: "unlikely".
>>
>>
>> .Bob
>>
>> 
>> 
>>
>> Replies: (remove the "")
>>
>> Ekko Jennings:  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>> Bob Clair: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>>
>>
>
>
>
>


-- 
Rough-edged songs from a dark place in the soul:
http://DoctorOakroot.com

Re: # 1 lute question

[Doctor Oakroot]

Howard Posner wrote:
> James A Stimson at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>
>> There seems to be a very simple explanation for the bent-back pegbox:
>> The
>> joint is more stable.
>
> But isn't it the bent-back design that makes a joint necessary in the
> first
> place?  I.e., if the pegbox were straight, couldn't it be made from the
> same
> piece of wood as the neck?
>
You can't actually make it straight. There wouldn't be enough downward
pull on the strings against the nut and the strings would buzz when played
open.

I think the headstock on a guitar is also glued on (although I guess you
could make it by steam bending the the neck stock), but it needs a heftier
joint than a lute's peg box.

-- 
Rough-edged songs from a dark place in the soul:
http://DoctorOakroot.com

RE: Tabs, Staff and the rest of it. (for Stewart McCoy) (fwd)

[Doctor Oakroot]

Thanks for the plug Wayne. Don't think there's any 3 on 5 in that one.
(And lute folks probably won't like it anyway).



Wayne Cripps wrote:
>> From: "Doctor Oakroot" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> Subject: RE: Tabs, Staff and the rest of it. (for Stewart McCoy)
>>
>> Spring, aus dem, Rainer wrote:
>> > Of course, it is almost impossible to play 3 versus 5 on a lute or
>> guitar.
>> >
>> Says who? I do it all the time. :)
>>
>
>  You can hear Doctor Oakroot at:
>
> http://doctoroakroot.com/dl.php/Doctor_Oakroot-Dancing_on_Quicksand.mp3
>
>
>
>


-- 
Rough-edged songs from a dark place in the soul:
http://DoctorOakroot.com

Re: # 1 lute question

[Doctor Oakroot]

James A Stimson wrote:
>
>
>
>
> Dear All:
>  There seems to be a very simple explanation for the bent-back pegbox: The
> joint is more stable. The glue holds the pegbox in place but is not
> subjected to upward pull -- as it would if the pegbox were in line with
> the
> neck.
> Yours,
> Jim
>

I'm inclined to agree with that as the basic, original reason, perhaps in
addition to pulling the strings down against the nut.

Those two reasons clearly account for the peg box angle on an instrument
such as the oud. But the lute's peg box angle is more extreme than an
oud's. I suspect the not-poking-the-guy-to-your-left explanation may have
some validity for the extreme angle used on the lute.
-- 
Rough-edged songs from a dark place in the soul:
http://DoctorOakroot.com

Re: Tabs, Staff and the rest of it. (for Stewart McCoy)

[Doctor Oakroot]

The example does not show an advantage of tab over staff notation... you
could just as easily write the bar in staff notation as 4 quarter notes
(expecting the player to figure out which notes to hold), with no less
simplicity nor less accuracy than the tab. In fact, such simplifications
are common in guitar staff notation.


Stewart McCoy wrote:
> Dear Tom,
>
> Here's a simple example. (You will need a monospaced font like
> Courier to get the vertical alignment correct.) The inner part has a
> bit of syncopation:
>
>   |\ |\|\   |
>   |\ | |\   |
>   |  | ||
> ___
> __|_||_
> __c__d_c__|_d___||_
> __|_||_
> __|_||_
> __|_||_
>
> It has crotchet, minim, crotchet in the first bar.
>
> Now, if the highest part has a semibreve, and the lowest part has a
> couple of minims, all three parts will have different rhythms. That
> would look quite complicated in staff notation, but in tablature
> everything fuses together to make a bar of four crotchets.
>
>   |\|
>   |\|
>   | |
> ___
> __a___|_c___||_
> __c__d_c__|_d___||_
> __c___|_||_
> __|_a___||_
> a_|_||_
>
> Of course, the lutenist has to be careful to hold notes for their
> full length, but he will use his common sense, and the open strings
> will help notes ring on. Four crotchets is easier to count than the
> syncopation of that inner part.
>
> Best wishes,
>
> Stewart McCoy.
>
>
>
>
> - Original Message -
> From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Tuesday, December 09, 2003 11:14 PM
> Subject: Tabs, Staff and the rest of it. (for Stewart McCoy)
>
>> while I have now
>> understood your point (c), I still don't really see how tablature
> copes with the
>> problem of complex inner rhythms. I spent some time this evening
>> looking through my lute music and did not
>> come across anything that seemed to correspond to what you say in
> your point
>> (c).
>
>
>
>


-- 
Rough-edged songs from a dark place in the soul:
http://DoctorOakroot.com

RE: Tabs, Staff and the rest of it. (for Stewart McCoy)

[Doctor Oakroot]

Spring, aus dem, Rainer wrote:
> Of course, it is almost impossible to play 3 versus 5 on a lute or guitar.
>
Says who? I do it all the time. :)

-- 
Rough-edged songs from a dark place in the soul:
http://DoctorOakroot.com

Re: Note I left out

[Doctor Oakroot]

A much better solution would be for the lute list to automatically reply
to the list as all real listservs do.

Jon Murphy wrote:
> May I suggest that you all look at the header on your email message when
> you
> send to this list (my apologies Wayne, that is your purview). There are
> two
> lines in the header that matter, the "To:" line and the "CC:" line. If
> either one of them is "Lute List" then it goes to the entire list,
> including
> the sender from the list. That is all that is needed, unless you are
> sending
> a reply to the sender off list, then you need to eliminate the "Lute List"
> from the header.
>
> It is a simple matter of a mouse click, and the delete key, to edit that
> header. When you send a "To: [EMAIL PROTECTED], Lute List", "CC: lute
> list"
> I get three copies (and that applies to everyone else, just used my own
> address as an example). And in my case, as I filter all Lute List messages
> to a Lute List folder, the CC: isn't filtered and I see the same message
> in
> several places, which makes it hard to follow the thread.
>
> I'm sure Wayne could say this better, but I suggest for the sanity of all
> that before hitting the "send" button you look at where you are sending
> it.
> It will be right there at the top of the page in the header. If everyone
> that you want to have receive it is on the Lute List, then just knock out
> the other names. And have the Lute List in the "To:" rather than the
> "CC:".
> Makes life easier for all of us.
>
> Best, Jon
>
>
>


-- 
Rough-edged songs from a dark place in the soul:
http://DoctorOakroot.com

Re: Staff Notation/Tablature

[Doctor Oakroot]

Well, tab is easy to sight read mechanically, since it tells you exactly
what to do (except for how long to hold each note), but as Tom says, it's
far inferior to staff notation as a musical description of the intended
sound.


Christopher Schaub wrote:
> The problem with standard notation is its lack of specificity. You can
> standard
> notate a Cmaj triad and play it many different places on the neck. Now
> voice
> leading would give you some clues, but not always, especially if you have
> many
> strings like the lute -- the bass could be an open string or fretted -- a
> very
> different sound! Tab takes away all of the mystery and preserves the
> sonority
> of the composer's original intent, even if you're sight reading. Sight
> reading
> tab is a ton easier than standard notation. Once you get good at reading
> tab,
> you'll know what I mean. The benefit of standard notation is its
> specificity,
> but I'd much rather have the ease of reading tab on something like the
> lute or
> guitar, especially if sight reading a solo piece. Standard notation is
> great
> for noting ties and dynamics etc, but you can write this into your tab
> part.
> Just my two cents.
>
> --- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>> Dear Howard and Vance,
>>
>> I was very interested to read your comments regarding the relative
>> virtues of
>>
>> staff notation and tablature. Being a beginner, I find tablature means I
>> have
>>
>> little or no idea which notes I am playing, whether I am supposed to
>> play a
>> fifth, an octave or indeed what interval is intended. Even the key is
>> often a
>>
>> mystery (I do not have absolute pitch) What looks like a 'third' in
>> staff
>> notation can turn out to be anything between a second and a seventh. The
>> letter 'd'
>> in the first chord or two of Greensleeves, I discovered, represents
>> about
>> three entirely different notes. Of course my musical origins are in
>> staff
>> notation, and I am so used to hearing what I read before I even try to
>> play
>> it, that
>> I find it very difficult to adapt to the new notation. I have managed,
>> am
>> beginning to recognise what is an octave, a scale, and the like, but
>> find
>> sight-reading very difficult. In staff notation one knows from the
>> context
>> what comes
>> (or could come) next. To find a b-flat in a-major (to take the first
>> example
>> that occurs to me) would be highly significant, and not at all what one
>> would
>>
>> expect. In tablature none of this seems possible, i.e. I have to read
>> letter
>> for letter (I imagine like some poor beginner in music, struggling to
>> read
>> any
>> form of notation), rather than in what I would consider a 'total way'.
>> Why,
>> then, would it be so wrong to use normal staff notation? One would then
>> be in
>> the
>> same position as the guitarist (and lute and guitar are not exactly
>> light
>> years apart), able to read and above all hear what was going on at a
>> glance.
>> To
>> this beginner at least, that seems a definite advantage. Cheers
>>
>> Tom Beck
>>
>>
>
>
>


-- 
Rough-edged songs from a dark place in the soul:
http://DoctorOakroot.com

Re: Bulk?

[Doctor Oakroot]

Yahoo sends anything that's not addressed to you, that is, anything that
doesn't have your email address in the To: field to the bulk mail folder.
This causes problems for poorly designed listservers (like the one the
lute list runs on) which send to themselves and blind copy the list
members. Well designed list servers send an individual email to each
member.

Steve Ramey wrote:
> Hi,
>
> Don't know for sure, but shortly after I started
> deleting whole groups of Lute List messages without
> reading them (I'm also on the list in a different mail
> system) Yahoo started to send first, only a few, then
> all the Lute List mail to my bulk.  I tried
> transfering lots of the messages to my in box without
> reading them first a few days ago, but that did not
> seem to change anything.
>
> The only thing I know to suggest is you move them in
> bulk (no pun intended) to your in box.  They pretty
> much read and transfer as well in Bulk as in the in
> box, though.
>
> Regards,
> Steve
>
>
>
> --- Sal Salvaggio <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> Any one know why my lutelist stuff is
>> winding up in my bulk mail folder on Yahoo?
>>
>> Sal
>>
>> __
>> Do you Yahoo!?
>> New Yahoo! Photos - easier uploading and sharing.
>> http://photos.yahoo.com/
>>
>>
>
>
>
> __
> Do you Yahoo!?
> New Yahoo! Photos - easier uploading and sharing.
> http://photos.yahoo.com/
>
>
>


-- 
Rough-edged songs from a dark place in the soul:
http://DoctorOakroot.com

Re: Facsimeles etc.

[Doctor Oakroot]

Matanya Ophee wrote:
> At 09:20 PM 12/2/2003 -0600, Michael Thames <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> wrote:
>
>> > St. Michael the Liberator!  I notice you don't give your guitars away.
>> > Don't you think the world should be given free access to such fine
>> > instruments?  ;-)
>> >
>> > DR
>>This is not an analogy, he MAKES them from scratch.
>>RT
>>   Roman, thanks.  I just didn't know what to say to someone like
>> that.
>
> It's easy to grab at the straws RT supplies you with when your hypocrisy
> is
> staring you in the face. But Roman is wrong. The analogy is perfect. The
> issue is not the music, but the object you hold in your hand when you put
> it on the copy machine. That is a book, and it was made from scratch by
> one
> person who invested a great deal of time and money in creating it.

What a load of crap! Making a book is a manufacturing operation and, per
se, does not involve any creativity. There may be creativity in the
content... but not when the content consists of facsimiles.

There is no copyright in operating a copying machine no matter how
inconvenient or expensive it was to obtain the source manuscript.

-- 
Rough-edged songs from a dark place in the soul:
http://DoctorOakroot.com