[LUTE] Re: tuning fork at 433Hz?

[EUGENE BRAIG IV]

Eeeew.

- Original Message -
From: Daniel Winheld 
Date: Wednesday, January 11, 2012 12:40 am
Subject: [LUTE] Re: tuning fork at 433Hz?
To: EUGENE BRAIG IV 
Cc: "lute@cs.dartmouth.edu" 

> When did they change from gut saws?
> 
> On Jan 10, 2012, at 1:49 PM, EUGENE BRAIG IV wrote:
> 
> > Alright, traveling more and more remotely to the original 
> discussion, but Crumb is wacky.  I think it's interesting 
> that "Ancient Voices..." makes such frequent appearances in 
> music appreciation and history courses in North America just 
> because it is so wacky.  I don't know if other "sonorists" 
> serve as more frequent examples off the continent.  I've 
> actually performed "Ancient Voices..." several times.  It 
> calls for a pianist to play toy piano, boy soprano singing 
> softly off stage or singing directly into the frame of a piano, 
> all performers periodically shouting, etc.
> > 
> > In addition to mandolin (with one string of each course 
> detuned 1/4 step and sometimes played "bottleneck" style with a 
> slide), the mandolinist is called upon to play the musical saw 
> with a cello bow.  One mandolinist friend complained about 
> cutting himself in prepping for a performance.  Another 
> mandolinist friend retorted "I have a bit of advice.  Play 
> the side without the teeth!"  Personally, I don't believe I 
> ever got close to the pitches notated for saw.  The best I 
> could do is generally follow the "melody" up or down.  
> Bowed saw isn't much like any lutey kin.
> > 
> > Eugene
> > 
> > - Original Message -
> > From: Christopher Wilke 
> > Date: Tuesday, January 10, 2012 3:43 pm
> > Subject: [LUTE] Re: tuning fork at 433Hz?
> > To: "lute@cs.dartmouth.edu" , EUGENE 
> BRAIG IV 
> > 
> >> Eugene,
> >> 
> >> --- On Tue, 1/10/12, EUGENE BRAIG IV  wrote:
> >> 
> >>> In the song cycle "Ancient
> >>>    Voices of Children", George Crumb asks
> >>> the mandolin be played with a
> >>>    metal paper clip in stead of a plectrum
> >>> of more typical material:
> >>>    plastics, tortoiseshell, etc.  His
> >>> intent was to generate as sharply
> >>>    metallic a sound as possible. 
> >> 
> >> Getting off topic here, but it's fun anyway. Crumb is a very 
> >> interesting composer with an obsession for timbre and special 
> >> effects.  In "Songs, Drones and Refrains of Death," he 
> >> calls outrageous techniques, like calling for the 
> percussionist 
> >> to beat on the strings of both the electric guitar and the 
> >> acoustic bass with soft mallets.  At various points, all 
> of 
> >> the instrumentalists have to whisper, speak, sing, hum and 
> >> shout.  The electric guitarist also has to double on jaw 
> >> harp.  At one point, the singer, using a megaphone, must 
> >> vocalize into a piano while the pianist depresses the pedal, 
> >> creating sympathetic resonance.  The pianist also 
> doubles 
> >> on amplified harpsichord.  I performed this piece a few 
> >> times.  Quite a lot of fun.
> >> 
> >> There is a whole school of mostly Eastern European composers 
> >> active after WWII that make much use of similar 
> effects.  
> >> The label that has been applied to them is "sonorist".  
> >> Zbigniew Granat, my colleague at Nazareth College where I 
> teach, 
> >> is an expert in the study of these composers.
> >> 
> >> Chris
> >> 
> >> 
> >> Christopher Wilke D.M.A.
> >> Lutenist, Guitarist and Composer
> >> www.christopherwilke.com
> >> 
> >> 
> >> 
> >> To get on or off this list see list information at
> >> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
> > 
> > 
> 
> 
> 

[LUTE] Re: tuning fork at 433Hz?

[EUGENE BRAIG IV]

Alright, traveling more and more remotely to the original discussion, but Crumb 
is wacky.  I think it's interesting that "Ancient Voices..." makes such 
frequent appearances in music appreciation and history courses in North America 
just because it is so wacky.  I don't know if other "sonorists" serve as more 
frequent examples off the continent.  I've actually performed "Ancient 
Voices..." several times.  It calls for a pianist to play toy piano, boy 
soprano singing softly off stage or singing directly into the frame of a piano, 
all performers periodically shouting, etc.

In addition to mandolin (with one string of each course detuned 1/4 step and 
sometimes played "bottleneck" style with a slide), the mandolinist is called 
upon to play the musical saw with a cello bow.  One mandolinist friend 
complained about cutting himself in prepping for a performance.  Another 
mandolinist friend retorted "I have a bit of advice.  Play the side without the 
teeth!"  Personally, I don't believe I ever got close to the pitches notated 
for saw.  The best I could do is generally follow the "melody" up or down.  
Bowed saw isn't much like any lutey kin.

Eugene

- Original Message -
From: Christopher Wilke 
Date: Tuesday, January 10, 2012 3:43 pm
Subject: [LUTE] Re: tuning fork at 433Hz?
To: "lute@cs.dartmouth.edu" , EUGENE BRAIG IV 


> Eugene,
> 
> --- On Tue, 1/10/12, EUGENE BRAIG IV  wrote:
> 
> > In the song cycle "Ancient
> >    Voices of Children", George Crumb asks
> > the mandolin be played with a
> >    metal paper clip in stead of a plectrum
> > of more typical material:
> >    plastics, tortoiseshell, etc.  His
> > intent was to generate as sharply
> >    metallic a sound as possible. 
> 
> Getting off topic here, but it's fun anyway. Crumb is a very 
> interesting composer with an obsession for timbre and special 
> effects.  In "Songs, Drones and Refrains of Death," he 
> calls outrageous techniques, like calling for the percussionist 
> to beat on the strings of both the electric guitar and the 
> acoustic bass with soft mallets.  At various points, all of 
> the instrumentalists have to whisper, speak, sing, hum and 
> shout.  The electric guitarist also has to double on jaw 
> harp.  At one point, the singer, using a megaphone, must 
> vocalize into a piano while the pianist depresses the pedal, 
> creating sympathetic resonance.  The pianist also doubles 
> on amplified harpsichord.  I performed this piece a few 
> times.  Quite a lot of fun.
> 
> There is a whole school of mostly Eastern European composers 
> active after WWII that make much use of similar effects.  
> The label that has been applied to them is "sonorist".  
> Zbigniew Granat, my colleague at Nazareth College where I teach, 
> is an expert in the study of these composers.
> 
> Chris
> 
> 
> Christopher Wilke D.M.A.
> Lutenist, Guitarist and Composer
> www.christopherwilke.com
> 
> 
> 
> To get on or off this list see list information at
> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: tuning fork at 433Hz?

[EUGENE BRAIG IV]

   Regarding:
   > In fact, do any contemporary composers give explicit
   > instructions for using a particular string type (or even
   > instrument material :
   > brass/silver/gold, reed-type, etc) in order to achieve a
   > particular tonal colour?
   I am aware of one at least similar case.  In the song cycle "Ancient
   Voices of Children", George Crumb asks the mandolin be played with a
   metal paper clip in stead of a plectrum of more typical material:
   plastics, tortoiseshell, etc.  His intent was to generate as sharply
   metallic a sound as possible.  However, if anything, the rounded ends
   of a paper clip and its relatively soft brand of metal (whatever it is)
   is less bright in timbre than most relatively stiff plectra that were
   actually made for the purpose of playing mandolins.
   Best,
   Eugene
   - Original Message -
   From: Anthony Hind 
   Date: Tuesday, January 10, 2012 5:34 am
   Subject: [LUTE] Re: tuning fork at 433Hz?
   To: Christopher Wilke 
   Cc: "lute@cs.dartmouth.edu" 
   >   I agree with Chris, it is surprising that with their interest
   > in "timbre-structures" Schoenberg and followers apparently made
   > no remarks on such a major "timbre" change as that caused by
   > moving from gut to metal strings; although, Klangfarbenmelodie
   > seems to have been a technique for "fracturing" the melody by
   > distributing it to several instruments, which is said to result
   > in a sort of "pointilliste" structuring (or destructuring)
   > intended to add tonal colour and texturing; but perhaps the
   > detailed colour of each instrument-type used, might  interest
   > these theoreticians rather less than it would us. Perhaps this
   > (as implied by Howard) they would leave to the interprets.
   >
   > %
   > In fact, do any contemporary composers give explicit
   > instructions for using a particular string type (or even
   > instrument material :
   > brass/silver/gold, reed-type, etc) in order to achieve a
   > particular tonal colour? I believe even modern strings vary
   > considerably, in terms of colour. Therefore in the search for a
   > particular timbre, such indications would seem plausible to
   > historic perfomers who are so conscious of the search for subtle
   > instrument colouration to capture the sounds prevalent at a
   > particular period (as Howard, also seems to imply).
   >
   > Perhaps, the notion of the universal tends to win out over the
   > particular timbral colour in the mind of a modern composer who
   > hopes for his music to survive him, in spite of future tonal
   > changes to instruments or pitch.
   > %
   > While it may be true that the music of certain composers whose
   > music is as textural as it is melodically structured can surely
   > benefit from using the instruments and the pitch, the composer
   > had in mind while creating a work; the composer himself may just
   > be working with the available materials, and not therefore see
   > it as the choice it now is to us, when we have to decide on what
   > strings or instruments to perform this composer's work.
   > %
   > This in no way takes away from the historical approach of a Mark
   > Minkowski, who through the use of gut stringing (and possibly a
   > lower diapason than 440) and period brass instruments, gave us a
   > refreshing in sight into how Stravinsky's music might possibly
   > have sounded at the time of the creation of Pulcinella, even if
   > Stravinsky himself gave no indication that it should only be
   > played that way. Furthermore, by including Pergolesi's Stabat
   > Mater in the same programme (also on period instruments), he was
   > able to underline the similarities and differences with italian
   > Baroque period music from which apparently Pulcinella was inspired.
   > %
   > Nevertheless, MM also played this programme in London at the
   > Barbican centre with the BBC Symphony Orchestra, and I see no
   > indication in the reports on this performance that this
   > orchestra used gut strings for either piece.
   > http://www.musicweb-international.com/SandH/2010/Jan-
   > Jun10/Pergolesi_Stravinsky_0603.htm
   > Although, the critical remarks in the article above, show that
   > other aspects of MM's historical approach
   > were carried over into this perfomance in London.
   > %
   > Thanks for these thought prevoking remarks, Howard and Chris.
   > Anthony
   >
   >
   > On Jan 8, 2012, at 5:17 AM, Christopher Wilke wrote:
   >
   > > I  find the area of performance practice in the early 20th
   > century to be extremely fascinating.  There were a lot of
   > changes that effected the quality of instrumental timbre, but
   > they seem to have happened with little complaint or fanfare.
   > You would think that composers like Schoenberg and his
   > followers, concerned as they were with Klangfarbenmelodie, would
   > have had something to say about gut versus metal strings or the
   > difference in brilliance between low vs. high 

[LUTE] Re: Non-stretchy pegbox leaders.

[EUGENE BRAIG IV]

That's the same knot that is more commonly called the blood knot by anglers and 
was previously discussed in this very thread.  I think it works best when 
joining two lines of relatively limp flexibility and similar diameter.  I would 
think it would be difficult to tie in gut because of the inherent stiffness of 
gut strings.

Best,
Eugene


- Original Message -
From: Ed Durbrow 
Date: Sunday, January 8, 2012 9:50 pm
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Non-stretchy pegbox leaders.
To: LuteNet list 

> I'd just like to chime in on the knot. I've found the barrel 
> knot  
> works best for me, i.e. doesn't break or slip. Unfortunately 
> it  
> requires 3 1/2 hands, just like soldering.
> 
> 
> 
> To get on or off this list see list information at
> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: ubricating Non-stretchy pegbox leaders.

[EUGENE BRAIG IV]

Ah, that's the snell (not shell) knot.  Yes, a staple, but I've only used it 
for fixing line to hard-wire hooks.  However, it is very similar to most 
multi-twist fishing knots.  For line-to-line connections of limp synthetics, 
try the blood knot or double-uni knot.

..But really, for musical instrument strings, I still prefer a string of 
uniform material passing over a well-lubed nut slot to any in-string, 
behind-nut knots whatsoever.

E

- Original Message -
From: alexander 
Date: Monday, January 2, 2012 11:18 am
Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: ubricating Non-stretchy pegbox leaders.
To: EUGENE BRAIG IV 
Cc: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu

> I hope i can post the link Separating the first "h" in 
> "http" for a spam assassins. The shell knot:
> 
> h ttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0zW6UIGTzGw
> 
> Very much depends on the leader material, actually, how slippery 
> the leader or the core is. I think the nail knot works better 
> with a thin gut, and the shell knot - with synthetics. 
> There is a plethora of wrap-around kind of knots, a fun to 
> choose from.
> 
> alexander r.
> 
> On Mon, 02 Jan 2012 10:52:51 -0500
> EUGENE BRAIG IV  wrote:
> 
> > I'm not familiar with the "shell not" outside of neck ties.  
> Is this the knot you'd intended, Alexander?  If not, can you 
> refer me to a diagram?
> > 
> > The nail knot to which I'd referred really has a low profile 
> for line to line, and a bit of burned-end gut would be perfectly 
> suited to it.  Have you ever used the nail knot in fixing 
> leader to instrument string?  If so, how did that one work?
> > 
> > Eugene
> > 
> > - Original Message -
> > From: alexander 
> > Date: Monday, January 2, 2012 8:31 am
> > Subject: [LUTE] Re: ubricating Non-stretchy pegbox leaders.
> > To: Ron Andrico 
> > Cc: wa...@physics.utexas.edu, lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
> > 
> > > I lubricate instrument nuts for living. I did try graphite 
> (or 
> > > lead pencil) in the past, but for the last... well, 15 or 
> so, 
> > > years i use a good quality bees wax, just lifting the string 
> > > above the nut a bit and  applying the wax on this little 
> > > bit of the string. Many advantages to the method, which you 
> > > could discover for yourselves, if tried.
> > > I also tie leaders to the strings for living. With gut, you 
> > > could burn the end of the string to create a tiny ball (as 
> done 
> > > with the frets) and use some non-stretching, better braided 
> or 
> > > twisted material, it will less likely damage your pegs. It 
> > > should be thin enough for the knot to be portable, not to 
> > > interfere with the neighboring strings. A some sort of wrap-
> > > around knot (shell knot is a good one) might be the best. 
> Yes it 
> > > will stabilize certain things, yes, possible. But boy, it 
> will 
> > > look ugly. On the lute...? Plus, there is a tremendous 
> chance 
> > > that these leaders will resonate to your notes in the most 
> > > unexpected ways and create some new and challenging tuning 
> > > problems. While the usual piece of string in the peg box is 
> > > still a good quality even round string, and if resonates, 
> still 
> > > harmoniously in some way, a tied leader will not so.
> > > Alexander r.
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > On Mon, 02 Jan 2012 12:27:13 +
> > > Ron Andrico  wrote:
> > > 
> > > >    I have found it necessary to tie a 'leader' 
> > > onto unexpectedly shortened
> > > >    strings and finding that, surprisingly, it 
> > > does seem to stabilize
> > > >    tuning problems. I have always used well-
> > > stretched bits of slightly
> > > >    thicker-gauged used gut or fret gut, since 
> > > it seems to find its point
> > > >    of stability in fairly short order.  Of 
> > > course the knot makes a
> > > >    difference and it must be fast and not catch 
> > > on other strings or the
> > > >    tuning problem is exacerbated.  Your 
> > > strings need to be well-ordered in
> > > >    the pegbox or the crisscrossing will result 
> > > in unauthorized
> > > >    intermingling and the catching of windings, 
> > > gimps or fibers.
> > > >    Lubricating the nut with a pencil is 
> > > probably the place to start
> > > >    tacking the problem though.
> > > >    RA
> > > >    > Date: Mon, 2 Jan 2012 00:49:15 -0600
> > &g

[LUTE] Re: ubricating Non-stretchy pegbox leaders.

[EUGENE BRAIG IV]

"Not" for "knot." "Your" for "you're."  "Occasion" for "occasional."  I'm 
really striking out this sleepy morning.  I hope the lute diction police aren't 
watching.

Eugene

- Original Message -
From: EUGENE BRAIG IV 
Date: Monday, January 2, 2012 10:53 am
Subject: [LUTE] Re: ubricating Non-stretchy pegbox leaders.
To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu

> I'm not familiar with the "shell not" outside of neck ties.  Is 
> this the knot you'd intended, Alexander?  If not, can you refer 
> me to a diagram?
> 
> The nail knot to which I'd referred really has a low profile for 
> line to line, and a bit of burned-end gut would be perfectly 
> suited to it.  Have you ever used the nail knot in fixing 
> leader to instrument string?  If so, how did that one work?
> 
> Eugene
> 
> - Original Message -
> From: alexander 
> Date: Monday, January 2, 2012 8:31 am
> Subject: [LUTE] Re: ubricating Non-stretchy pegbox leaders.
> To: Ron Andrico 
> Cc: wa...@physics.utexas.edu, lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
> 
> > I lubricate instrument nuts for living. I did try graphite (or 
> > lead pencil) in the past, but for the last... well, 15 or so, 
> > years i use a good quality bees wax, just lifting the string 
> > above the nut a bit and  applying the wax on this little 
> > bit of the string. Many advantages to the method, which you 
> > could discover for yourselves, if tried.
> > I also tie leaders to the strings for living. With gut, you 
> > could burn the end of the string to create a tiny ball (as 
> done 
> > with the frets) and use some non-stretching, better braided or 
> > twisted material, it will less likely damage your pegs. It 
> > should be thin enough for the knot to be portable, not to 
> > interfere with the neighboring strings. A some sort of wrap-
> > around knot (shell knot is a good one) might be the best. Yes 
> it 
> > will stabilize certain things, yes, possible. But boy, it will 
> > look ugly. On the lute...? Plus, there is a tremendous chance 
> > that these leaders will resonate to your notes in the most 
> > unexpected ways and create some new and challenging tuning 
> > problems. While the usual piece of string in the peg box is 
> > still a good quality even round string, and if resonates, 
> still 
> > harmoniously in some way, a tied leader will not so.
> > Alexander r.
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > On Mon, 02 Jan 2012 12:27:13 +
> > Ron Andrico  wrote:
> > 
> > >    I have found it necessary to tie a 'leader' 
> > onto unexpectedly shortened
> > >    strings and finding that, surprisingly, it 
> > does seem to stabilize
> > >    tuning problems. I have always used well-
> > stretched bits of slightly
> > >    thicker-gauged used gut or fret gut, since 
> > it seems to find its point
> > >    of stability in fairly short order.  Of 
> > course the knot makes a
> > >    difference and it must be fast and not catch 
> > on other strings or the
> > >    tuning problem is exacerbated.  Your 
> > strings need to be well-ordered in
> > >    the pegbox or the crisscrossing will result 
> > in unauthorized
> > >    intermingling and the catching of windings, 
> > gimps or fibers.
> > >    Lubricating the nut with a pencil is 
> > probably the place to start
> > >    tacking the problem though.
> > >    RA
> > >    > Date: Mon, 2 Jan 2012 00:49:15 -0600
> > >    > To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
> > >    > From: wa...@physics.utexas.edu
> > >    > Subject: [LUTE] Non-stretchy pegbox leaders.
> > >    >
> > >    >
> > >    > We had a discussion similar to this three 
> > years ago
> > >    > (Dec 7 2008). However, I'd like to revisit 
> > the subject with
> > >    > my question rephrased to focus more 
> > closely on my problem.
> > >    >
> > >    > Stretching of strings between the nut and 
> > the peg is causing
> > >    > me severe difficulty in tuning -- I can 
> > turn the peg
> > >    > 90 or 120 degrees with no response in the pitch.
> > >    >
> > >    > Lubricating the nut is of course a possibility.
> > >    >
> > >    > But I'd also like to try replacing the 
> > portion of the string
> > >    > between nut and peg with a leader of some 
> > material which
> > >    > (a) does not stretch,
> > >    > (b) can be tied securely and easily to the 
> > string,>    > (c) will not slip on the peg,
> > >    > (d) will not damage anything,
> > >    > (e) is strong enough, and
> > >    > (f) is readily available.
> > >    >
> > >    > Does anyone have experience in this?
> > >    >
> > >    >
> > >    >
> > >    > To get on or off this list see list 
> > information at
> > >    > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-
> > admin/index.html> 
> > >    --
> > > 
> > 
> > 
> 
> 
> 
> To get on or off this list see list information at
> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: ubricating Non-stretchy pegbox leaders.

[EUGENE BRAIG IV]

I'm not familiar with the "shell not" outside of neck ties.  Is this the knot 
you'd intended, Alexander?  If not, can you refer me to a diagram?

The nail knot to which I'd referred really has a low profile for line to line, 
and a bit of burned-end gut would be perfectly suited to it.  Have you ever 
used the nail knot in fixing leader to instrument string?  If so, how did that 
one work?

Eugene

- Original Message -
From: alexander 
Date: Monday, January 2, 2012 8:31 am
Subject: [LUTE] Re: ubricating Non-stretchy pegbox leaders.
To: Ron Andrico 
Cc: wa...@physics.utexas.edu, lute@cs.dartmouth.edu

> I lubricate instrument nuts for living. I did try graphite (or 
> lead pencil) in the past, but for the last... well, 15 or so, 
> years i use a good quality bees wax, just lifting the string 
> above the nut a bit and  applying the wax on this little 
> bit of the string. Many advantages to the method, which you 
> could discover for yourselves, if tried.
> I also tie leaders to the strings for living. With gut, you 
> could burn the end of the string to create a tiny ball (as done 
> with the frets) and use some non-stretching, better braided or 
> twisted material, it will less likely damage your pegs. It 
> should be thin enough for the knot to be portable, not to 
> interfere with the neighboring strings. A some sort of wrap-
> around knot (shell knot is a good one) might be the best. Yes it 
> will stabilize certain things, yes, possible. But boy, it will 
> look ugly. On the lute...? Plus, there is a tremendous chance 
> that these leaders will resonate to your notes in the most 
> unexpected ways and create some new and challenging tuning 
> problems. While the usual piece of string in the peg box is 
> still a good quality even round string, and if resonates, still 
> harmoniously in some way, a tied leader will not so.
> Alexander r.
> 
> 
> 
> On Mon, 02 Jan 2012 12:27:13 +
> Ron Andrico  wrote:
> 
> >    I have found it necessary to tie a 'leader' 
> onto unexpectedly shortened
> >    strings and finding that, surprisingly, it 
> does seem to stabilize
> >    tuning problems. I have always used well-
> stretched bits of slightly
> >    thicker-gauged used gut or fret gut, since 
> it seems to find its point
> >    of stability in fairly short order.  Of 
> course the knot makes a
> >    difference and it must be fast and not catch 
> on other strings or the
> >    tuning problem is exacerbated.  Your 
> strings need to be well-ordered in
> >    the pegbox or the crisscrossing will result 
> in unauthorized
> >    intermingling and the catching of windings, 
> gimps or fibers.
> >    Lubricating the nut with a pencil is 
> probably the place to start
> >    tacking the problem though.
> >    RA
> >    > Date: Mon, 2 Jan 2012 00:49:15 -0600
> >    > To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
> >    > From: wa...@physics.utexas.edu
> >    > Subject: [LUTE] Non-stretchy pegbox leaders.
> >    >
> >    >
> >    > We had a discussion similar to this three 
> years ago
> >    > (Dec 7 2008). However, I'd like to revisit 
> the subject with
> >    > my question rephrased to focus more 
> closely on my problem.
> >    >
> >    > Stretching of strings between the nut and 
> the peg is causing
> >    > me severe difficulty in tuning -- I can 
> turn the peg
> >    > 90 or 120 degrees with no response in the pitch.
> >    >
> >    > Lubricating the nut is of course a possibility.
> >    >
> >    > But I'd also like to try replacing the 
> portion of the string
> >    > between nut and peg with a leader of some 
> material which
> >    > (a) does not stretch,
> >    > (b) can be tied securely and easily to the 
> string,>    > (c) will not slip on the peg,
> >    > (d) will not damage anything,
> >    > (e) is strong enough, and
> >    > (f) is readily available.
> >    >
> >    > Does anyone have experience in this?
> >    >
> >    >
> >    >
> >    > To get on or off this list see list 
> information at
> >    > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-
> admin/index.html> 
> >    --
> > 
> 
> 



To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Non-stretchy pegbox leaders.

[EUGENE BRAIG IV]

Your not likely to find many braids on local-shop shelves clocking 0.6 - 0.8 
mm.  In typical braids/fusion lines, even 0.4 mm diameters will exceed a 
breakage rating of 100-lb/45-kg test.  As you might expect, to get to a 
diameter of 0.8 mm, you're handily exceeding double that rating.  Modern 
braided lines are pretty tough stuff.  Of course, you can order the relatively 
high-diameter stuff from shops with a good selection of saltwater gear.  ...And 
there a re vast many brands of modern, high-modulus polyethylene braid out 
there, all pretty much the same.  (Don't buy braided dacron or nylon; those 
still crop up for occasion applications, but are very different things.)

Best,
Eugene

- Original Message -
From: Daniel Winheld 
Date: Monday, January 2, 2012 3:04 am
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Non-stretchy pegbox leaders.
To: Herbert Ward 
Cc: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu

> Google "Spectra fishing line"  very strong, highly stretch 
> resistant. Another high strength, low stretch fiber is  
> "DYNEEMA" (high modulus polyethylene fiber) "Spectra" might 
> actually be this stuff, different brand names and formulations 
> for different applications. Fishing line seems to be the most 
> basic & readily available for the leader application. Braided 
> stuff may be more easily tied securely to the string than 
> monofilament. I doubt that anything in .60 - .80 mm would damage 
> anything under normal lute string tensions.
> 
> Absolutely start with a thorough nut inspection. If the groove 
> is misshapen in any way, or off angle to the path of the string 
> so as to cause string binding, and/or rough spots, the no-
> stretch material may just speed up the time it takes to break 
> the string while turning the peg.Then lubricate- bees wax, 
> graphite, whatever.  Also make sure the small end of the 
> peg is not catching first, while there is play in the large end- 
> that can drive one totally crazy trying to tune.
> 
> I have never needed leader for that purpose, only used it at 
> times when it made it possible to get two strings out of one 
> length. (Who doesn't want 1/2 price gut?).  I've also never 
> had anything slip on the peg as long as the end coming out the 
> back end of the peghole passes under the part being wound onto 
> the string.
> 
> Hope this all helps-
> 
> Dan
> 
> On Jan 1, 2012, at 10:49 PM, Herbert Ward wrote:
> 
> > 
> > We had a discussion similar to this three years ago
> > (Dec 7 2008).  However, I'd like to revisit the subject with
> > my question rephrased to focus more closely on my problem.
> > 
> > Stretching of strings between the nut and the peg is causing
> > me severe difficulty in tuning -- I can turn the peg 
> > 90 or 120 degrees with no response in the pitch.
> > 
> > Lubricating the nut is of course a possibility.
> > 
> > But I'd also like to try replacing the portion of the string 
> > between nut and peg with a leader of some material which
> >    (a) does not stretch,
> >    (b) can be tied securely and easily to the string,
> >    (c) will not slip on the peg,
> >    (d) will not damage anything,
> >    (e) is strong enough, and
> >    (f) is readily available.
> > 
> > Does anyone have experience in this?
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > To get on or off this list see list information at
> > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
> 
> 
> 

[LUTE] Re: Non-stretchy pegbox leaders.

[EUGENE BRAIG IV]

Greetings Herbert and list:

I tie knots, try to catch fish, and pluck gut.  Personally, I don't think a 
leader would be worth the effort.  To be useful, the leader would need to 
nearly fill the space from peg to nut.  You couldn't keep any reserve of string 
wrapped on or coiled beyond peg to slide down to the vibrating length if there 
is ever any breakage or fraying; each broken string would need complete 
replacement with a series of rather complicated knots if you intend to maintain 
the leader.

Depending, some fishing "leaders" are actually designed to stretch more than 
modern low-stretch lines and thus absorb the shock of a fish strike without 
breaking or pulling the hook from a fish's mouth.  I would expect 
monofilament or fluorocarbon leader material to stretch more than typical gut 
strings.  If you still want to look into this, rather than materials advertised 
as leader, consider modern "braided" or "fusion" lines.  Those tend to have no 
appreciable stretch.

There are a fair number of excellent knots for joining fishing lines (or lines 
to leaders) of different materials or diameters.  The problem I envision with 
most of those knots is that they were devised around rather limply flexible 
fishing lines and require each line to make a series of twists around the 
other.  Gut is relatively stiff and thus not prone to easily making many twists 
around anything as fine as fishing line.  One exception is the nail knot.  In 
tying it, you could keep the gut straight and wrap line around it, but it is 
rather involved.  You could also tie a small double surgeon's loop in each gut 
and line and thread one through the other to interlock, but that would likely 
occupy more length and the line may cut through the gut after being to tension 
for a relatively short time.

I still think minimizing friction over nut is your best bet.  In addition to 
lubricating nut slots with graphite, wrap pegs in an effort to minimize the 
angle of the string coming off the nut.  If you do experiment with string 
leaders, please keep us posted on your results.

Luck,
Eugene


- Original Message -
From: howard posner 
Date: Monday, January 2, 2012 2:03 am
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Non-stretchy pegbox leaders.
To: lute List 

> 
> On Jan 1, 2012, at 10:49 PM, Herbert Ward wrote:
> 
> 
> > Stretching of strings between the nut and the peg is causing
> > me severe difficulty in tuning -- I can turn the peg 
> > 90 or 120 degrees with no response in the pitch.
> > 
> > Lubricating the nut is of course a possibility.
> 
> A necessity, if you can really give the peg more than a quarter 
> turn with no result. Take a pencil and draw lines in the grooves 
> until you've put a layer of graphite down in the groove.
> 
> > But I'd also like to try replacing the portion of the string 
> > between nut and peg with a leader of some material which
> >    (a) does not stretch,
> >    (b) can be tied securely and easily to the string,
> >    (c) will not slip on the peg,
> >    (d) will not damage anything,
> >    (e) is strong enough, and
> >    (f) is readily available.
> > 
> > Does anyone have experience in this?
> 
> Go to your local fishing supply shop, talk to someone who is not 
> a fish, and ask for leader.  That's the stuff you 
> want.  If your knot-tying skills are halfway decent (i.e. 
> better than mine) you should be able to join it securely to your 
> string.  Having the knot resting on the nut  will 
> solve all your sticking problems, but likely leave you with not 
> enough string to retie the knot if it comes undone.
> --
> 
> To get on or off this list see list information at
> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: who is this guy?

[EUGENE BRAIG IV]

I'm sorry, but I have to admit that the slang implications of the guitar-lute 
hybrid instrument's name brought a juvenile chuckle to my lips.

Eugene

- Original Message -
From: Bruno Fournier 
Date: Sunday, December 4, 2011 9:44 pm
Subject: [LUTE] who is this guy?
To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu

>    A
> 
>    anyone ever met this guy?
> 
>    A
> 
>    [1]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G3qGxpT5rug
> 
>    A
> 
>    A
> 
>    --
> 
>    A
> 
>    Bruno Cognyl-Fournier
> 
>    A
> 
>    [2]www.estavel.org
> 
>    A
> 
>    --
> 
> References
> 
>    1. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G3qGxpT5rug
>    2. http://www.estavel.org/
> 
> 
> To get on or off this list see list information at
> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Century-old lute recordings

[EUGENE BRAIG IV]

   Still, I'm guessing the "lutenist" was seated right at the horn with
   the other performers arrayed behind.  The pluck that sounds to be
   fretted usually dominates, leaving the voice that seems to be harp
   comfortably in the background.  The harp often seems to serve only as
   ambient sustain.
   Eugene
   - Original Message -
   From: "heiman.dan...@juno.com" 
   Date: Sunday, December 4, 2011 8:22 am
   Subject: [LUTE] Re: Century-old lute recordings
   To: edurb...@sea.plala.or.jp
   Cc: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
   > Ed:
   >
   > It is highly likely that there was no microphone.  This was
   > still the era of acoustic recording.  Electronic technology
   > did not come into common use for making records until the mid-1920s.
   >
   > Daniel
   >
   > -- Original Message --
   > From: Ed Durbrow 
   > To: Daniel F Heiman
   > ,LuteNet list 
   > Subject: [LUTE] Re: Century-old lute recordings
   > Date: Sun, 4 Dec 2011 18:38:06 +0900
   >
   >How very interesting! It sounds like the singer is
   > singing full voice.
   >They must have put the lutenist right in front of
   > the microphone to
   >achieve that balance.
   >
   >On Nov 21, 2011, at 7:50 AM,
   > [1]heiman.dan...@juno.com wrote:
   >
   >at the Library of Congress:
   >[2]http://1.usa.gov/tdD129
   >It must be a lutar, but it is nevertheless
   > interesting that anyone even
   >thought of doing these at that time.
   >Daniel
   >To get on or off this list see list information at
   >http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
   >
   >Ed Durbrow
   >Saitama, Japan
   >[3]http://www.musicianspage.com/musicians/9688/
   >[4]http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/
   >
   >--
   >
   > References
   >
   >1. mailto:heiman.dan...@juno.com
   >2. http://1.usa.gov/tdD129
   >3. http://www.musicianspage.com/musicians/9688/
   >4. http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/
   >
   >
   >
   >
   > --

[LUTE] Re: American luthiers

[EUGENE BRAIG IV]

Here's a reasonably priced up-and-comer and occasional on this list of whom I 
am fond:
http://www.neallutes.com/p/baroque-lutes.html

Chad has done a great deal of repair work for me (including a total rebuild of 
an odd East German vihuela) and is contracted to build a new Neapolitan 
mandolin for me.  I believe his heart is with the d-minor lutes of the baroque, 
but he seems willing enough to build outside that status quo.

Eugene

- Original Message -
From: Edward Mast 
Date: Saturday, August 6, 2011 3:16 pm
Subject: [LUTE] American luthiers
To: LuteNet list 

> A guitarist friend of mine - not yet a member here - wants to 
> get a lute and asked my advice.   He would like to get 
> from a maker in this country (U.S.).  The only current 
> maker whose instruments I have played and can absolutely 
> recommend is Dan Larson, but I think his wait time is rather 
> long right now.  Others listed in the Lute Quarterly are 
> Richard Fletcher, David Fitzpatrick and Ken Brodkey.  Has 
> anyone here experience with the instruments of any of these 
> makers?  -Edward
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> To get on or off this list see list information at
> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: New lute CD "Lautenschmaus"

[EUGENE BRAIG IV]

Congrats!  I'm looking forward to putting a copy on my shelves.

Eugene

- Original Message -
From: Daniel Shoskes 
Date: Friday, July 22, 2011 6:38 pm
Subject: [LUTE] New lute CD "Lautenschmaus"
To: lute 

>    Dear Friends: I am excited to announce the release 
> of my first CD
>    entitled "Lautenschmaus" (The Lute Feast): 
> Ascendance of the German
>    Baroque Lute. It covers music of composers such as 
> Reusner, Logy, St.
>    Luc, Kuhnel, Weiss, Lauffensteiner, Bach and 
> Turovsky and has many
>    works not previously recorded. They are performed 
> on a gut strung 11
>    course lute and a nylgut/copper wound strung 13 
> course lute.
>    Promotional video: 
> [1]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-OLeLKtJoVI
>    Download the album from Digstation:
>    
> [2]http://www.digstation.com/AlbumDetails.aspx?albumID=ALB81211   In the 
> next few days it should be available for download and purchase
>    of the physical CD from CDbaby.com and in 2-3 weeks 
> from the iTunes
>    store and Amazon.com
>    Best wishes
>    Daniel Shoskes
>    --
> 
> References
> 
>    1. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-OLeLKtJoVI
>    2. 
> http://www.digstation.com/AlbumDetails.aspx?albumID=ALB81211
> 
> To get on or off this list see list information at
> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Speaking of citterns....

[EUGENE BRAIG IV]

   All I can say about T-fret wire is it is relatively old, but for some
   reason, it took some time to catch on with some conservative makers.
   Martin in the US (founded in 1833, for those unfamiliar), e.g.,
   continued to stubbornly use bar-fret wire well into the 20th c. on all
   their instruments, mandolins (wire strung) and guitars (originally
   intended for gut, of course).  When they did convert, they converted
   throughout their production.
   Best,
   Eugene
   - Original Message -
   From: Christopher Stetson 
   Date: Saturday, May 28, 2011 7:44 am
   Subject: [LUTE] Re: Speaking of citterns
   To: David van Ooijen 
   Cc: lute List 
   >Exactly, David, and said in 5 words what I was
   > writing an article
   >about.
   >
   >
   >
   >But, to get even more wildly off-lute-topic, does
   > anyone know the
   >history of the development of mass-produced fret
   > wire of the modern
   >type, with rounded top and T-shaped cross-
   > section?  I notice that it's
   >already used on my oldest guitar, ca. 1860.  I
   > find it hard to imagine
   >a luthier making it himself, but I notice that
   > while my old guitars all
   >have (it looks original, anyway), but my wire-
   > strung mandolins, made at
   >least 30 years later, have fret wire with a simple
   > bar profile.  I
   >presume the difference is because of the different
   > string material.
   >
   >Best to all, and keep playing,
   >
   >Chris.
   >
   >On Sat, May 28, 2011 at 3:06 AM, David van Ooijen
   ><[1]davidvanooi...@gmail.com> wrote:
   >
   >> On May 27, 2011, at 2:53 PM, Sean Smith wrote:
   >>
   >>> Guitars in the early 20th century used metal
   > frets and gut together,
   >I presume.
   >>
   >> And in the 19th century.
   >>
   >
   >  And in the 21st.
   >  David
   >  --
   >  ***
   >  David van Ooijen
   >  [2]davidvanooi...@gmail.com
   >  [3]www.davidvanooijen.nl
   >  ***
   >
   >To get on or off this list see list information at
   >[4]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
   >
   >--
   >
   > References
   >
   >1. mailto:davidvanooi...@gmail.com
   >2. mailto:davidvanooi...@gmail.com
   >3. http://www.davidvanooijen.nl/
   >4. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
   > --

[LUTE] Re: James Tyler

[EUGENE BRAIG IV]

Also at the forefront of reuniting baroque repertoire for mandolin[o] with the 
instrument for which it was intended.  Still one of the very few to have 
recorded gut-strung mandolino in fingerstyle punteado.  Missed indeed...

Eugene

- Original Message -
From: Bruno Fournier 
Date: Sunday, November 28, 2010 9:14 pm
Subject: [LUTE] James Tyler
To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu

>    Hello
> 
>    A
> 
>    Someone announced on the french lute list, that 
> James Tyler passed
>    away.A  I don't know if the American lute list 
> was made aware of
>    this.A
> 
>    A
> 
>    Bruno Cognyl-Fournier
> 
>    Montreal, Canada
> 
>    --
> 
> 
> To get on or off this list see list information at
> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Carbon strings?

[EUGENE BRAIG IV]

I think you mean trolling.  Trawling is conducted with large net gears.  ...But 
a theorbo could hold a hearty serving of bouillabaisse. 

Eugene

- Original Message -
From: Sean Smith 
Date: Thursday, June 10, 2010 12:36 am
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Carbon strings?
To: "lute-cs.dartmouth.edu" 

> 
> So, do theorboes work better for casting or trawling?
> 
> Sean
> 
> 
> On Jun 9, 2010, at 9:05 PM, Laura Maschi wrote:
> 
> >   Thank you all...
> >
> >   so Inow I'll go to the fishing store and check 
> what we have there.
> >
> >   By the way...I think I will tie all my nylguts and 
> go fishing!
> >
> >   :-)
> >
> >   Laura
> >
> >   2010/6/10 EUGENE BRAIG IV <[1]brai...@osu.edu>
> >
> > - Original Message -
> > From: Paul Kieffer 
> <[2]paul.nicholas.kief...@gmail.com>> 
> Date: Wednesday, June 9, 2010 10:44 pm
> > Subject: [LUTE] Re: Carbon strings?
> >
> > To: EUGENE BRAIG IV <[3]brai...@osu.edu>
> > Cc: "[4]l...@cs.dartmouth.edu" 
> <[5]l...@cs.dartmouth.edu>>>   I'm not sure why you 
> guessed I'm using nylon.
> >> Every fishing line I've
> >>   used has said "100 % Fluorocarbon, Professional Grade."
> >
> >   Voila.  If it said 
> fluorocarbon, that's what it was.  Cheers.
> >   Eugene --
> >
> >   To get on or off this list see list information at
> >
> >   [6]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-
> admin/index.html>
> >   --
> >
> > References
> >
> >   1. mailto:brai...@osu.edu
> >   2. mailto:paul.nicholas.kief...@gmail.com
> >   3. mailto:brai...@osu.edu
> >   4. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
> >   5. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
> >   6. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-
> admin/index.html>
> 
>

[LUTE] Re: Carbon strings?

[EUGENE BRAIG IV]

Be careful to be just a little more specific on this subject.  The generic 
description of "fishing line" is not sufficient to arrive at appropriate 
instrument strings.  I can't find enough detail to determine the material 
you're using, Paul, but I would guess it's nylon from your descriptions of 
quantity and price.

Most monofilament fishing lines are nylon and of different density from 
fluorocarbon, the different materials requiring different diameters at any 
given pitch and scale length.  To dabble in fishing lines as strings, use a 
string calculator to estimate appropriate diameters and be certain you know 
what material you're buying.  Again, almost anything labeled simply 
"monofilament" will be some variant of nylon.  If a monofilament is made of 
fluorocarbon (what instrumentalists often simply call "carbon"), the package 
will say so: i.e., packaging will state "fluorocarbon", "100% fluorocarbon", or 
similar.  As Paul mentioned, any braided, Kevlar, or "fusion" fishing lines 
won't really be appropriate as instrument strings.  You can even find 
fluorocarbon-coated nylon, which I would also avoid.  Again, read the package 
if you intend to pluck fishing line!

Nylon monofilament fishing lines can be really cheap.  Fluorocarbon is much 
more expensive than nylon monofilament, but still much, much cheaper than gut 
or even fluorocarbon packaged as individual strings by musical instrument 
string manufacturers.  Unfortunately, to find such synthetics in appropriate 
diameters for most instruments' lower courses (say the 3rd and below in many 
cases and even 2nd in some), you'll probably have to buy designated instrument 
strings.

I've had a little less time with fluorocarbon lines than nylon.  However, as 
I'd mentioned before, I've had plain bad luck with Berkley's "Vanish" brand 
fluorocarbon which tends to fray very quickly along its whole length when under 
modest sustained tension.  It will begin to look rather hairy and loses 
consistent intonation too quickly.  I've had much better luck with P-Line 
CFX flourocarbon fly fishing leader.

I've found most nylon monofilament fishing lines by brand-name manufacturers to 
be pretty similar.  Berkley's nylon monofilament (branded "Trilene") seems more 
dependable than their fluorocarbon as instrument strings.

Best,
Eugene


- Original Message -
From: Laura Maschi 
Date: Wednesday, June 9, 2010 12:12 am
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Carbon strings?
To: "lute@cs.dartmouth.edu" 

> 
> 
> > De: Laura Maschi 
> > Fecha: 9 de junio de 2010 1:03:30 GMT-03:00
> > Para: Paul Kieffer 
> > Cc: Miguel de Olaso 
> > Asunto: Re: [LUTE] Re: Carbon strings?
> >
> 
> > Hi Paul, can you recommend any fishing line maker?
> > Which brands have you tríed? And is ir better the line or the 
> leader 
> >  type?
> > So far I have only the reference for 'seaguar' a japanese 
> maker,  
> > that unfortunately is very difficult to get here in 
> Argentina.  
> > Suggestions welcomed!
> > Thanks
> > Laura
> >
> > Enviado desde mi iPod
> >
> > El 08/06/2010, a las 21:07, Paul Kieffer 
>  > > escribió:
> >
> >>  I've been using carbon fishing line for some time now 
> for just the  
> >> top
> >>  'g' string on my 10 course lute.  It works 
> tremendously well, lasts
> >>  incredibly long, and is about 1000 times cheaper than 
> "lute string."
> >>
> >>  If you live in any big or medium sized city, you should 
> be able to  
> >> find
> >>  a store with the right diameter fishing line.
> >>
> >>  They have the perfect diameters for the top string, 
> I've tried  
> >> anything
> >>  from .36 mm to .42 mm.
> >>
> >>  Make sure you don't get wound fishing line, because it 
> won't  
> >> stretch,
> >>  of course.  It just comes apart.
> >>
> >>  Just yesterday I bought 140 meters of fishing line at 
> .41mm  
> >> diameter.
> >>  It was around $20 Canadian.  This new line has 
> been on my lute for a
> >>  day now, and it sounds and works amazing.
> >>
> >>  I break the top string quite a bit, and having 140 
> meters of the top
> >>  string is comforting.  (If you're in a concert and 
> the g string
> >>  breaks...what are you going to do...go backstage and 
> put another gut
> >>  string on it, and then wait for it to settle in and 
> then break  
> >> again?
> >>  Or you can just unravel some fishing line, stick it on 
> there, and  
> >> bam.
> >>   It doesn't need any time to stretch or get settle 
> really.)>>
> >>  IMO, it's much better to go with this option, than it 
> is to order
> >>  strings online from expensive sources (*and many times 
> unreliable).>>  Also, when you order that stuff online, you 
> pay huge shipping costs,
> >>  and you have to wait 1-2 weeks (or 4 or 5).  I've 
> wasted a lot of  
> >> money
> >>  ordering actual lute strings when my top string would break.
> >>
> >>  I've had very bad experiences with gut when it comes to 
> the top g
> >>  string... it's just not worth 
> the effort or money if you ask me.
> >>
> >>  I was weary at f

[LUTE] Re: baroque mandolins - single/double courses experiment

[EUGENE BRAIG IV]

   They are available in modern notation from the mandolin publisher
   Trekel:
   https://www.trekel.de/cgi-bin/shop/front/shop_main.cgi?func=det&wkid=56
   630133836085815&rub1=Noten%20-%20Sheet%20music&rub2=Noten%20Zupfinstrum
   ente%20-%20Plucked%20Strings%2CNoten%20Mandoline%2CMandoline%20solo&art
   nr=9060&pn=0&sort=&partnr=8194&all=
   Best,
   Eugene
   - Original Message -
   From: Roland Hayes 
   Date: Sunday, June 6, 2010 11:37 am
   Subject: [LUTE] Re: baroque mandolins - single/double courses
   experiment
   To: Stuart Walsh , Lute List
   
   >How can one get this music?  Has anyone tried
   > to transcribe it for
   >archlute? r
   >
   > __
   >From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu on behalf of Stuart Walsh
   >Sent: Sun 6/6/2010 10:41 AM
   >To: Lute List
   >Subject: [LUTE] Re: baroque mandolins -
   > single/double courses
   >experiment
   >
   >I sent this a while ago
   >>
   >>
   >> Here's a little example of single-stringing. It's
   > an Alemande and
   >> Corrente by Filippo Sauli. Of course, the Sauli
   > pieces are definitely
   >> for mandolino and mandolinos have double courses
   >>
   >> [1]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oReJcAQIU04
   >>
   >>
   >And here is another little piece by Sauli on the
   > same instrument, now
   >with double courses (except for the top string).
   >[2]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HSxLtfVX5xY
   >Stuart
   >To get on or off this list see list information at
   >[3]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
   >
   >--
   >
   > References
   >
   >1. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oReJcAQIU04
   >2. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HSxLtfVX5xY
   >3. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
   > --

[LUTE] Re: baroque mandolins etc---not forgetting the French mandore

[EUGENE BRAIG IV]

Again, I think one of the best cases for making the distinction between 
instrument types is that they each have distinct bodies of dedicated 
repertoire.  I tend to believe an instrument is called what its makers and 
players called it.  While obviously similarly inspired, these things were 
somewhat distinct in application and even in some construction conventions, 
even if the differences in construction were largely superficial.

Best,
Eugene

- Original Message -
From: Alexander Batov 
Date: Tuesday, June 1, 2010 3:19 pm
Subject: [LUTE] Re: baroque mandolins etc---not forgetting the French mandore
To: Lute List 

> Many good points, Stuart. I myself is a long term fan of this 
> this 
> little instrument (although not so much nowadays) and have made 
> a number 
> of copies of both the mandore and mandolino. I could never 
> really see 
> any hard reasons to distinguish them (I'm talking about early 
> 17th - mid 
> 18th century time frame). In fact, constructionally and in terms 
> of size 
> it is the same instrument and that's the main thing! There is 
> also an 
> evidence of a small late 16th century descant lute by Venere 
> that was 
> converted to a 6-course mandolino (hardly surprising, bearing in 
> mind a 
> suitable body size at hand!). As for the stringing, there seemed 
> to be 
> all different sorts of combinations, with 5- and 6-course 
> instruments 
> being double-strung throughout, or with a single first course, 
> not to 
> say with 4, 5 and, occasionally, 6 single strings (again, within 
> the 
> above-mentioned period). The Ulm MS has plenty of right hand 
> fingering 
> indications (underline for a thumb, single and double dots for 
> fore- and 
> middle fingers, in other words, finger-plucked entirely).
> 
> Alexander
> 
> On 01/06/2010 18:11, Stuart Walsh wrote:
> > EUGENE BRAIG IV wrote:
> >>Indeed, but the late renaissance mandore 
> was distinct from Italian
> >>mandolino. 
> >
> >
> > Not that distinct Eugene.  Late Renaissance = Early 
> Baroque? The Ulm 
> > MS (which I would really like to get hold of) is 1625-30 and 
> there are 
> > sources of music throughout the 17th century. (info from 
> Tyler's book)
> >
> > Aren't we simply talking about one instrument: a small, lute-
> like 
> > instrument with with gut strings which in France was called 
> the 
> > 'mandore' and in Italy, the 'mandola/mandolino'? And for both, 
> there 
> > are references to the top string as at g''. And even, 
> sometimes the 
> > mandore was double-strung. So: same sort of size, shape, 
> string material.
> >
> > But the French version was in a different tuning (with 
> variants) and 
> > seems to have lost popularity in the 17th century whereas the 
> Italian 
> > version in the fourths tuning (from the 17th century) has 
> never quite 
> > died out.
> >
> > Unlike the mandola/mandolino,  there are contemporary 
> accounts of how 
> > the mandore was played: with a quill, with a quill tied to a 
> finger 
> > (very odd?), with a single finger (presumably dedillo style) 
> and plain 
> > fingerstyle. And there are descriptions of how loud it can 
> sound (e.g. 
> > dominating a consort of lutes - Trichet).
> >
> > It strikes me as a bit odd that an evidently popular 
> instrument 
> > typically with single strings should get them doubled as it 
> became 
> > more Italianate. Could the single-string instruments be of 
> lighter 
> > construction? But mandolini are incredibly light anyway. Would 
> the 
> > double stringing of courses make the instruments louder. But 
> > contemporary accounts suggest that the mandore was loud. Would 
> the 
> > double stringing favour a particular way of playing the strings?
> >
> > Lastly, Tyler quotes a French source from 1690 saying that 
> some 
> > mandore players used a plectrum tied to the index finger for 
> the first 
> > course and the thumb on the lower courses. Is it possible that 
> some 
> > mandola/mandolino music was played in some sort of way with 
> both quill 
> > and fingers?
> >
> >
> > Stuart
> 
> 
> 
> To get on or off this list see list information at
> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: baroque mandolins etc---not forgetting the French mandore

[EUGENE BRAIG IV]

The "distinct" to which I was referring was more regarding standard tunings (in 
mandora, apparently most often an "open"-like series of 4ths and 5ths) and 
bodies of dedicated repertoire.  Obviously, the general morphologies of the 
instruments and origins in time are pretty similar and probably influenced each 
other.  Tyler's writings also touch a bit on the former points of distinctness.

The relationship to earlier versions of lute is perhaps a bit more obvious to 
me in mandolino than in northerly mandore.  This is evident in both the 
consistent stringing in courses of paired strings and in the somewhat more 
linear approach to tuning.  I don't know if this indicates mandore was in 
actuality a later diversion from mandolino, but I suppose it might.

Regarding technique of the Italianate things, I simply wish more was known of 
the era before written methods began to appear.  Without evidence to the 
contrary, I suppose anything is possible.

Best,
Eugene

- Original Message -
From: Stuart Walsh 
Date: Tuesday, June 1, 2010 1:14 pm
Subject: [LUTE] Re: baroque mandolins etc---not forgetting the French mandore
To: EUGENE BRAIG IV 
Cc: Lute List 

> EUGENE BRAIG IV wrote:
> >Indeed, but the late renaissance mandore was 
> distinct from Italian
> >mandolino.  
> 
> 
> Not that distinct Eugene.  Late Renaissance = Early 
> Baroque? The Ulm MS 
> (which I would really like to get hold of) is 1625-30 and there 
> are 
> sources of music throughout the 17th century. (info from Tyler's book)
> 
> Aren't we simply talking about one instrument: a small, lute-
> like 
> instrument with with gut strings which in France was called the 
> 'mandore' and in Italy, the 'mandola/mandolino'? And for both, 
> there are 
> references to the top string as at g''. And even, sometimes the 
> mandore 
> was double-strung. So: same sort of size, shape, string material.
> 
> But the French version was in a different tuning (with variants) 
> and 
> seems to have lost popularity in the 17th century whereas the 
> Italian 
> version in the fourths tuning (from the 17th century) has never 
> quite 
> died out.
> 
> Unlike the mandola/mandolino,  there are contemporary 
> accounts of how 
> the mandore was played: with a quill, with a quill tied to a 
> finger 
> (very odd?), with a single finger (presumably dedillo style) and 
> plain 
> fingerstyle. And there are descriptions of how loud it can sound 
> (e.g. 
> dominating a consort of lutes - Trichet).
> 
> It strikes me as a bit odd that an evidently popular instrument 
> typically with single strings should get them doubled as it 
> became more 
> Italianate. Could the single-string instruments be of lighter 
> construction? But mandolini are incredibly light anyway. Would 
> the 
> double stringing of courses make the instruments louder. But 
> contemporary accounts suggest that the mandore was loud. Would 
> the 
> double stringing favour a particular way of playing the strings?
> 
> Lastly, Tyler quotes a French source from 1690 saying that some 
> mandore 
> players used a plectrum tied to the index finger for the first 
> course 
> and the thumb on the lower courses. Is it possible that some 
> mandola/mandolino music was played in some sort of way with both 
> quill 
> and fingers?
> 
> 
> Stuart
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Stuart
> 
> 
> 
> 
> > I know of one very early mandolino built for a single high
> >string, but all the other instruments and 
> iconography of which I'm
> >aware imply a high course of paired strings 
> for mandolino. In the 19th
> >c., single-strung mandolini Milanese and 
> Lombardi began to appear, but
> >they are comfortably post baroque.
> >Best,
> >Eugene
> >- Original Message -
> >From: Stuart Walsh 
> >Date: Monday, May 31, 2010 12:34 pm
> >Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: baroque mandolins 
> etc---not forgetting the
> >French mandore
> >To: Martyn Hodgson 
> >Cc: Lute List , 
> EUGENE BRAIG IV
> >
> >> Martyn Hodgson wrote:
> >> >Very good point about 
> uniformity of trebles.
> >> Did mandolinos never have
> >> >single trebles?
> >> >
> >>
> >>
> >> The French mandore from  the late 
> 16th century has single
> >> strings.
> >> According to Tyler, the lost, earliest, 
> tutor from Leroy (1585)
> >> is for
> >> a four-string instrument (source: Trichet, 
> writing years later

[LUTE] Re: baroque mandolins etc---not forgetting the French mandore

[EUGENE BRAIG IV]

   Indeed, but the late renaissance mandore was distinct from Italian
   mandolino.  I know of one very early mandolino built for a single high
   string, but all the other instruments and iconography of which I'm
   aware imply a high course of paired strings for mandolino. In the 19th
   c., single-strung mandolini Milanese and Lombardi began to appear, but
   they are comfortably post baroque.
   Best,
   Eugene
   - Original Message -
   From: Stuart Walsh 
   Date: Monday, May 31, 2010 12:34 pm
   Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: baroque mandolins etc---not forgetting the
   French mandore
   To: Martyn Hodgson 
   Cc: Lute List , EUGENE BRAIG IV
   
   > Martyn Hodgson wrote:
   > >Very good point about uniformity of trebles.
   > Did mandolinos never have
   > >single trebles?
   > >
   >
   >
   > The French mandore from  the late 16th century has single
   > strings.
   > According to Tyler, the lost, earliest, tutor from Leroy (1585)
   > is for
   > a four-string instrument (source: Trichet, writing years later).
   > Praetorius, Chancy and Mersenne clearly depict a four-string
   > instrument
   > and some surviving examples are illustrated in Baines.
   >
   > So here is a tiny instrument, just like the later mandolino, but
   > tuned
   > differently and seemingly a successful, popular instrument for
   > quite a
   > long time. And with single strings.
   >
   > Stuart
   >
   >
   >
   >
   >
   >
   > >The splitting horn was certainly a known
   > tool but as to the uniformity
   > >of the resultant gut I've no knowledge -
   > perhaps it was even better
   > >though? - We know that at the beginning of
   > the 16thC (whole) gut
   > >strings were naturally slightly conical
   > (mentioned in Capirola f 3v as
   > >the thicker end and the thinner end) -
   > perhaps this splitting horn was
   > >an early form of industrial tool to ensure
   > uniformity?.>
   > >rgds
   > >
   > >Martyn
   > >--- On Mon, 31/5/10, EUGENE BRAIG IV
   >  wrote:
   > >
   > >  From: EUGENE BRAIG IV
   > >  Subject:
   > [LUTE] Re: baroque mandolins etc--- tensions and kgs?
   > >  To: "Lute List"
   > >  Date:
   > Monday, 31 May, 2010, 15:29
   > >
   > >   I found the document to
   > which I'd referred.  Not as useful as I'd
   > >   hoped.  There are a
   > pair of receipts issued to the Pieta by two
   > >   different suppliers in
   > Venice that were discovered by Micky White
   > >and
   > >   made available in
   > 2002.  One was issued by Selles and spans
   > >   March-February 1745, and
   > the other by Montagnana spanning
   > >June-February
   > >   1760.  There isn't
   > enough detail to be useful in determining string
   > >   gauges.  A typical
   > entry will read something like "un
   > >   maso cantini di mandolino"
   > followed by the sale price.
   > >   I'm just a little
   > skeptical about the usefulness of splitting or
   > >   grinding strings in this
   > context, but would love to hear of somebody
   > >   experimenting with
   > such.  My experience with "polished" gut (that
   > >   fragments the linear
   > integrity of gut fibers) is that it is
   > >extremely
   > >   short-lived at fine
   > gauges.  Gut, as an organic fiber, tends to be a
   > >   little inconsistent in
   > ways that can sometimes make for questionable
   > >   intonation along its
   > length.  Of course, this is often cited as one
   > >   reason why lutes and
   > guitars carried single chanterelles.  The body
   > >of
   > >   evidence shows that
   > mandolini typically strung the highest course in
   > >   pairs.  I would think
   > splitting a fine gut string would exacerbate
   > >   issues of inconsistency.
   > >   Best,
   > >   Eugene
   > >   - Original Message 
   > -
   > >   From: Martyn Hodgson
   > <[1]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk>>   Date: Monday, May 31, 2010 2:51
   am
   > >   Subject: [LUTE] Re:
   > baroque mandolins etc--- tensions and kgs?
   > >   To: Lute List
   > <[2]l...@cs.dartmouth.edu>, EUGENE BRAIG IV
   > >   <[3]brai...@osu.edu>,
   > "davide.rebuffa">
   > <[4]davide.rebu...@fastwebnet.it>>   >
   > >   >
   > >   >Thank
   > you for this.
   &g

[LUTE] Re: baroque mandolins etc--- tensions and kgs?

[EUGENE BRAIG IV]

   I found the document to which I'd referred.  Not as useful as I'd
   hoped.  There are a pair of receipts issued to the Pieta by two
   different suppliers in Venice that were discovered by Micky White and
   made available in 2002.  One was issued by Selles and spans
   March-February 1745, and the other by Montagnana spanning June-February
   1760.  There isn't enough detail to be useful in determining string
   gauges.  A typical entry will read something like "un
   maso cantini di mandolino" followed by the sale price.
   I'm just a little skeptical about the usefulness of splitting or
   grinding strings in this context, but would love to hear of somebody
   experimenting with such.  My experience with "polished" gut (that
   fragments the linear integrity of gut fibers) is that it is extremely
   short-lived at fine gauges.  Gut, as an organic fiber, tends to be a
   little inconsistent in ways that can sometimes make for questionable
   intonation along its length.  Of course, this is often cited as one
   reason why lutes and guitars carried single chanterelles.  The body of
   evidence shows that mandolini typically strung the highest course in
   pairs.  I would think splitting a fine gut string would exacerbate
   issues of inconsistency.
   Best,
   Eugene
   - Original Message -
   From: Martyn Hodgson 
   Date: Monday, May 31, 2010 2:51 am
   Subject: [LUTE] Re: baroque mandolins etc--- tensions and kgs?
   To: Lute List , EUGENE BRAIG IV
   , "davide.rebuffa" 
   >
   >
   >Thank you for this.
   >
   >My original enquiry was not so much about
   > conducting a survey of what
   >tensions modern manolino preffered but rather to
   > cooment on Timmerman's
   >recotrding and ask what's the historical evdidence
   > for string tensions
   >on these instruments. As far as I'm aware, the only
   > evidence mentioned
   >has been a catalogue of strings for the Ospedale in
   > Vivaldi's time - do
   >we know anything about these?.
   >
   >I'm also interested that you use lower tensions on
   > larger instruments
   >(even as large as 95cm), and would be grateful for
   > your evidence to
   >support this practice.
   >
   >regards
   >
   >Martyn
   >
   >--- On Sun, 30/5/10, davide.rebuffa
   >    wrote:
   >
   >  From: davide.rebuffa
   > 
   > Subject: [LUTE] Re: baroque mandolins etc--- tensions and kgs?
   >  To: "Lute List"
   > , "EUGENE BRAIG IV"
   >  
   >  Date: Sunday, 30 May, 2010, 15:42
   >
   >Dear Martyn
   >I agree with Eugene about string tension and right
   > hand position.
   >("with my pinky near to the  bridge of a
   > mandolino, my m, i, and p are
   >much nearer to the relative  center of the
   > vibrating string length than
   >they would be on a baroque   lute")
   >I play with quite high tension and so do my
   > students and does Mauro
   >Squillante who plays the same copy of a 6 ocurse
   > mandolino made for us
   >by an italian maker.
   >I use 0.40 ( gut or nylgut) for the g top string at
   > 415 hz  on a short
   >string lenght mandolini , 31.8 cm (originals and
   > copies from north
   >Italy)
   >the same 0.40  or 0.38  on original
   > mandolini with longer string
   >lenght made in central Italy where the standard
   > corista was lower ( top
   >string in f , 390 hz ) - a 5 course mandolino by
   > Smorsone (1721 )
   >diapason cm 33.8 cm
   >and  4 course by Franchi, diapason 34.9 cm
   > (1727 which has single top
   >string).
   >Theese instruments with longer string lenght,
   > narrow and long body
   >project wery well even with low tensions but I
   > woudn't say the same
   >about the mandolini made in Milano at the end of
   > the XVIIIth century
   >with larger body which need higher tension,  I
   > suspect this is because
   >they were already conceived to be played with the
   > plectrum which gives
   >a softer sound.
   >I might be wrong but my feelings and my experience
   > are that I need
   >higher tension on small instruments an quite lowe
   > on big instruments
   >like calichon or theorbo and baroque guitars, but
   > not that low on the
   >baroque lute.
   >regards,
   >Davide
   >- Original Message - From: "EUGENE BRAIG IV"
   ><[1]brai...@osu.edu>
   >To: "Lute List" <[2]l...@cs.dartmouth.edu>
   >Sent: Sunday, May 30, 2010 2:43 PM
   >Subject: [LUTE] Re: baroque mandolins etc---
   > tensions

[LUTE] Re: baroque mandolins etc--- tensions and kgs?

[EUGENE BRAIG IV]

Greetings Martyn et alia,

Again, in my mind, the "why" is mostly dictated by what is available in 
strings.  While lower courses could be strung much lighter, the imbalance with 
the lightest available gut g'' would be undesirable.  Even though I don't 
always use gut g'' strings, I do often use the rough equivalent of the finest 
gut available in carbon.

Best,
Eugene


- Original Message -
From: Martyn Hodgson 
Date: Sunday, May 30, 2010 8:52 am
Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: baroque mandolins etc--- tensions and kgs?
To: Stuart Walsh 
Cc: Lute List , EUGENE BRAIG IV 

> Dear Stuart, > The answer is 3.5KG for this spec. Whether it's high or low 
> tension is moot. I think it's fairly > high for such a relatively small 
> instrument: on a lute-like comparison I'd expect something closer to 2Kg But 
> most of you mandolinoistas seem to think high tensions are the norm - but on 
> what basis I don't know.  Why don't you try doubled nylon on this course to 
> give 2Kg per string - you'd need to put on nylon at 0.40mm - and see how 
> double string playing with finger tips feels like now (may take a bit of time 
> to adjust of course...)  > I gave the formula is an earlier email Frequency 
> is directly related to pitch. You need to be careful that you use consistent 
> units. But the simplest way is to find a website that offers a string 
> calculator and allows you to vary the parameters.  I use a special slide rule 
> which has the advantage of allowing numerous comparisons to be made visually 
> all at once. > rgds > Martyn
> --- On Sun, 30/5/10, Stuart Walsh  wrote:

> From: Stuart Walsh 
> Subject: [LUTE] Re: baroque mandolins etc--- tensions and kgs?
> To: "Martyn Hodgson" 
> Cc: "Lute List" , "EUGENE BRAIG IV" 
> Date: Sunday, 30 May, 2010, 12:06


> >    Dear Eugene,
> >
> >    There is really is no difficulty here. The heart of the matter is that
> >    tension needs to be related to string length, so that with similar
> >    instruments, bigger ones (and used eg Dowland as said)) higher tension
> >    than their smaller counterparts - see the earlier communication about
> >    this. So for a small string length, like on the mandolino which is
> >    around half the string length of a mean lute, a tension of as low as a
> >    half is suggested for similar 'feel' ie 3Kg/2 = 1.5Kg (which is why I
> >    suggested a trial at around this level). The converse is also the case
> >    with large theorbos needing higher tensions than a mean lute.
> >
> >    The modern 'classical' guitar is single strung (like some theorbos) and
> >    can be played with a higher level of tension (as Stuart found out when
> >    he tried single strings).
> >
> >    I thought all this was common knowledge.
> >
> >    regards
> >
> >    Martyn
> >
> >
> >   
> No it's really interesting. I've always glazed over discussions of 
> tensions and kgs. So how do you work out the string tension in kgs?  Is 
> it a rather baffling formula?

> For example, the second course of my little homemade instrument, with a 
> string length of 37cms (or just a bit more) and with a Pyramid lute 
> string , nylon 0.525 tuned to b' (A=440).  Is that high tension or low 
> tension? As a doubled course it feels very high tension indeed (iron 
> bar). As a single course it feels just a little bit too light, but 
> superficially at least, more amenable for fingerstyle play.


> Stuart
> >
> >
> >    --- On Sun, 30/5/10, EUGENE BRAIG IV  wrote:
> >
> >      From: EUGENE BRAIG IV 
> >      Subject: [LUTE] Re: baroque mandolins etc--- tensions and kgs?
> >      To: "Lute List" 
> >      Date: Sunday, 30 May, 2010, 5:26
> >
> >       I don't know why tension should have much to do with punteado vs.
> >       plectrum.  I also certainly would not consider approx. 3.0-4.0 kg
> >    per
> >       string (as I use on my mandolino) "high" tension.  Guitars are often
> >       much higher, modern classical or even 19th c.  It's not even far
> >    from
> >       what some players use on lutes.  On his string calculator page,
> >       Arto cites 3.0 kg as his standard and 4.0 as preferred on archlute.
> >       Eugene
> >       - Original Message -
> >       From: Stuart Walsh <[1]s.wa...@ntlworld.com>
> >       Date: Friday, May 28, 2010 6:13 pm
> >       Subject: [LUTE] Re: baroque mandolins etc--- tensions and kgs?
> >       To: David van Ooijen <[2]davidvanooi...@gmail.com>
>

[LUTE] Re: baroque mandolins etc--- tensions and kgs?

[EUGENE BRAIG IV]

Of course, I'd meant "...a better ability to "cut" above accompanying 
instruments" with mandolino.

Best,
Eugene

- Original Message -----
From: EUGENE BRAIG IV 
Date: Sunday, May 30, 2010 8:45 am
Subject: [LUTE] Re: baroque mandolins etc--- tensions and kgs?
To: Lute List 

>    Of course it is (common knowledge, that is, at 
> least relatively so).
>    But with modern classical guitars sometimes strung 
> to 9 kg or so, the
>    single string functions at as high or higher a 
> tension than the paired
>    course.  Also, fingerpicking steel-string 
> guitars is not uncommon, and
>    even lightly strung, they tend to be even higher tension.
>    Regarding the act of plucking itself, the feeling 
> of stiffness imparted
>    by short scale length doesn't hinder after a little 
> practice.  If
>    anything, it increases speed and accuracy because 
> the strings are more
>    consistently close to where they started.  
> It's a similar effect to
>    plucking very, very near the bridge, as is now 
> common on baroque
>    instruments.  Because of scale length alone, 
> with my pinky near to the
>    bridge of a mandolino, my m, i, and p are much 
> nearer to the relative
>    center of the vibrating string length than they 
> would be on a baroque
>    lute.  I don't play d-minor lute, but I don't 
> mind noodling on other
>    folks' on occasion.  Plucking near the bridge 
> of a d-minor lute feels
>    only slightly different to me.  I suppose that 
> may be only because I'm
>    so accustomed to plucking mandolino now.
>    Plucking a mandolino using the finest functional 
> strings that are
>    readily available isn't that much different with 
> minimal practice.  Not
>    many yet, but as mentioned earlier, there are a 
> fair number of
>    recordings that demonstrate so nicely: Tyler, 
> O'Dette, Wedemeier, etc.
>    I'm excited to hear another such recording is 
> pending with the
>    scholarly Davide Rebuffa doing the plucking.
>    I think it's possible that the high tessitura of 
> such things may in
>    part be why chamber music and concerti make up such 
> a higher relative
>    proportion of extant baroque mandolino repertoire, 
> where that for lute
>    favors solos.  Not only does the expanded bass 
> lend itself to a more
>    satisfying self accompaniment on lute, but all the 
> previously discussed
>    factors trend to add up to better projection, a 
> better ability to "cut"
>    above accompanying instruments.  Also, I am 
> aware of absolutely no
>    evidence one way or the other, but I suspect nail 
> use may have been
>    more common to mandolino players than d-minor lute 
> players.   ...And by the early classical and the era 
> of published mandolin
>    methods, the burgeoning popularity of the 
> Neapolitan type, the music of
>    Hoffmann, etc. it DOES appear that plectrum play on 
> 4th-tuned
>    mandolini was becoming common.
>    Really, before losing oneself in bewilderment, one 
> should pick up a 5-
>    or 6-course mandolino and pluck a few notes with 
> the fingers.  It's not
>    so bad.
>    Best,
>    Eugene
>    - Original Message -
>    From: Martyn Hodgson 
>    Date: Sunday, May 30, 2010 4:09 am
>    Subject: [LUTE] Re: baroque mandolins etc--- 
> tensions and kgs?
>    To: Lute List , EUGENE 
> BRAIG IV
>    
>    >
>    >    Dear Eugene,
>    >
>    >    There is really is no 
> difficulty here. The heart of
>    > the matter is that
>    >    tension needs to be related to 
> string length, so
>    > that with similar
>    >    instruments, bigger ones (and 
> used eg Dowland as
>    > said)) higher tension
>    >    than their smaller counterparts 
> - see the earlier
>    > communication about
>    >    this. So for a small string 
> length, like on the
>    > mandolino which is
>    >    around half the string length 
> of a mean lute, a
>    > tension of as low as a
>    >    half is suggested for similar 
> 'feel' ie 3Kg/2 =
>    > 1.5Kg (which is why I
>    >    suggested a trial at around 
> this level). The
>    > converse is also the case
>    >    with large theorbos needing 
> higher tensions than a
>    > mean lute.
>    >
>    >    The modern 'classical' guitar 
> is single strung
>    > (like some theorbos) and
>    >    can be played with a higher 
> level of tension (as
>    > Stuart found out when
>    >    he tried single strings).
>    >
>    >    I thought all this 

[LUTE] Re: baroque mandolins etc--- tensions and kgs?

[EUGENE BRAIG IV]

- Original Message -
From: Stuart Walsh 
Date: Sunday, May 30, 2010 7:08 am
Subject: [LUTE] Re: baroque mandolins etc--- tensions and kgs?
To: Martyn Hodgson 
Cc: Lute List , EUGENE BRAIG IV 

> 

> No it's really interesting. I've always glazed over discussions 
> of 
> tensions and kgs. So how do you work out the string tension in 
> kgs?  Is 
> it a rather baffling formula?
> 
> For example, the second course of my little homemade instrument, 
> with a 
> string length of 37cms (or just a bit more) and with a Pyramid 
> lute 
> string , nylon 0.525 tuned to b' (A=440).  Is that high 
> tension or low 
> tension? As a doubled course it feels very high tension indeed 
> (iron 
> bar). As a single course it feels just a little bit too light, 
> but 
> superficially at least, more amenable for fingerstyle play.
> 
> 
> Stuart


Here is a really handy and easily used utility concocted by the list's own 
Arto.  Plug your variables in here:
http://www.cs.helsinki.fi/u/wikla/mus/Calcs/wwwscalc.html

The result is very near to 3 kg, which is right around where I like to keep my 
own mandolino, however, with courses of paired strings at approx. 330 mm on 
mine.

Best,
Eugene



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http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: baroque mandolins etc--- tensions and kgs?

[EUGENE BRAIG IV]

   Of course it is (common knowledge, that is, at least relatively so).
   But with modern classical guitars sometimes strung to 9 kg or so, the
   single string functions at as high or higher a tension than the paired
   course.  Also, fingerpicking steel-string guitars is not uncommon, and
   even lightly strung, they tend to be even higher tension.
   Regarding the act of plucking itself, the feeling of stiffness imparted
   by short scale length doesn't hinder after a little practice.  If
   anything, it increases speed and accuracy because the strings are more
   consistently close to where they started.  It's a similar effect to
   plucking very, very near the bridge, as is now common on baroque
   instruments.  Because of scale length alone, with my pinky near to the
   bridge of a mandolino, my m, i, and p are much nearer to the relative
   center of the vibrating string length than they would be on a baroque
   lute.  I don't play d-minor lute, but I don't mind noodling on other
   folks' on occasion.  Plucking near the bridge of a d-minor lute feels
   only slightly different to me.  I suppose that may be only because I'm
   so accustomed to plucking mandolino now.
   Plucking a mandolino using the finest functional strings that are
   readily available isn't that much different with minimal practice.  Not
   many yet, but as mentioned earlier, there are a fair number of
   recordings that demonstrate so nicely: Tyler, O'Dette, Wedemeier, etc.
   I'm excited to hear another such recording is pending with the
   scholarly Davide Rebuffa doing the plucking.
   I think it's possible that the high tessitura of such things may in
   part be why chamber music and concerti make up such a higher relative
   proportion of extant baroque mandolino repertoire, where that for lute
   favors solos.  Not only does the expanded bass lend itself to a more
   satisfying self accompaniment on lute, but all the previously discussed
   factors trend to add up to better projection, a better ability to "cut"
   above accompanying instruments.  Also, I am aware of absolutely no
   evidence one way or the other, but I suspect nail use may have been
   more common to mandolino players than d-minor lute players.
   ...And by the early classical and the era of published mandolin
   methods, the burgeoning popularity of the Neapolitan type, the music of
   Hoffmann, etc. it DOES appear that plectrum play on 4th-tuned
   mandolini was becoming common.
   Really, before losing oneself in bewilderment, one should pick up a 5-
   or 6-course mandolino and pluck a few notes with the fingers.  It's not
   so bad.
   Best,
   Eugene
   - Original Message -
   From: Martyn Hodgson 
   Date: Sunday, May 30, 2010 4:09 am
   Subject: [LUTE] Re: baroque mandolins etc--- tensions and kgs?
   To: Lute List , EUGENE BRAIG IV
   
   >
   >Dear Eugene,
   >
   >There is really is no difficulty here. The heart of
   > the matter is that
   >tension needs to be related to string length, so
   > that with similar
   >instruments, bigger ones (and used eg Dowland as
   > said)) higher tension
   >than their smaller counterparts - see the earlier
   > communication about
   >this. So for a small string length, like on the
   > mandolino which is
   >around half the string length of a mean lute, a
   > tension of as low as a
   >half is suggested for similar 'feel' ie 3Kg/2 =
   > 1.5Kg (which is why I
   >suggested a trial at around this level). The
   > converse is also the case
   >with large theorbos needing higher tensions than a
   > mean lute.
   >
   >The modern 'classical' guitar is single strung
   > (like some theorbos) and
   >can be played with a higher level of tension (as
   > Stuart found out when
   >he tried single strings).
   >
   >I thought all this was common knowledge.
   >
   >regards
   >
   >Martyn
   >
   >
   >
   >
   >
   >--- On Sun, 30/5/10, EUGENE BRAIG IV
   >  wrote:
   >
   >  From: EUGENE BRAIG IV 
   >  Subject: [LUTE] Re: baroque mandolins
   > etc--- tensions and kgs?
   >  To: "Lute List" 
   >  Date: Sunday, 30 May, 2010, 5:26
   >
   >   I don't know why tension should
   > have much to do with punteado vs.
   >   plectrum.  I also certainly
   > would not consider approx. 3.0-4.0 kg
   >per
   >   string (as I use on my mandolino)
   > "high" tension.  Guitars are often
   >   much higher, modern classical or
   > even 19th c.  It's not even far
   >from
   >   what some players use on
   > lutes.  On his string calculator page,
   >   Arto cites 3.0 kg as his standard
   > and 4.0 as

[LUTE] Re: baroque mandolins etc--- tensions and kgs?

[EUGENE BRAIG IV]

   I don't know why tension should have much to do with punteado vs.
   plectrum.  I also certainly would not consider approx. 3.0-4.0 kg per
   string (as I use on my mandolino) "high" tension.  Guitars are often
   much higher, modern classical or even 19th c.  It's not even far from
   what some players use on lutes.  On his string calculator page,
   Arto cites 3.0 kg as his standard and 4.0 as preferred on archlute.
   Eugene
   - Original Message -
   From: Stuart Walsh 
   Date: Friday, May 28, 2010 6:13 pm
   Subject: [LUTE] Re: baroque mandolins etc--- tensions and kgs?
   To: David van Ooijen 
   Cc: Lute List 
   > David van Ooijen wrote:
   > > On Fri, May 28, 2010 at 9:17 PM, Stuart Walsh
   >  wrote:
   > >
   > >> Is there a simple explanation, somewhere, of string tensions
   > and what 3kg or
   > >> 7 kg etc means and what is the significance of it. I've never
   > understood>> what it's all about.
   > >>
   > >
   > > I wrote this some years ago, so I could understand what it was
   > all about:
   > >
   > > - Calculating String Tensions
   > > Explaining the why and how of calculating strings for lutes.
   > >
   > > http://home.planet.nl/~ooije006/david/writings/stringtension_f.htm
   > >
   > Thank you for this.  I read it as carefully as I could!
   >
   > To be honest, I got as far as "the frequency of a string
   > [frequency=pitch?] is directly related [=is?] the square root of
   > its
   > tension." and a sort of filter kicks in.
   > A bit like when a plumber comes to fix something (at great
   > expense) and
   > explains all the minute details when I just want to know whether
   > the
   > toilet will flush or not.
   >
   > But what you say confirms (if  I've understood you) what I
   > thought about
   > high tension stringing, playing with nails (plectrum) etc and
   > that maybe
   > old instruments were more lightly constructed with strings
   > at  lower
   > tension, needing a gentler mode of playing.
   >
   > And so this is the  problem with tiny instruments like the
   > mandolino
   > where the strings are inevitably (?) going to be high tension -
   >   how can
   > they be fingerstyle/punteado instruments rather than plectrum
   > instruments (even if some of the music for them looks -
   > superficially? -
   > as if it can't be played with a  plectrum)
   >
   >
   > Stuart
   >
   > (not a plectrum player)
   --


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[LUTE] Re: Mandolin at Kedleston Hall

[EUGENE BRAIG IV]

   PS: Mid 18th-c. is right about right for extant instruments to begin
   appearing in decent numbers.  The first wave of mandolin popularity
   (and almost all the first method books beginning in the 1760s) happened
   in Paris.  Without knowing anything about the family's history, I
   suspect that portraying themselves with a mandolin this early in that
   movement was a demonstration of their cosmopolitan stylishness.
   Best,
   Eugene
   - Original Message -
   From: Stewart McCoy 
   Date: Sunday, May 23, 2010 7:00 pm
   Subject: [LUTE] Mandolin at Kedleston Hall
   To: Lute Net 
   > Dear Eugene,
   >
   > In view of this discussion of Neapolitan mandolins, would you or
   > anyoneelse care to comment on a painting of what I believe to be
   > a Neapolitan
   > mandolin at Kedleston Hall in Derbyshire. I was recently sent the
   > following query from a friend who is researching the music there.
   >
   > -o-O-o-
   >
   > If you go to
   >
   > http://www.nationaltrust.org.uk/main/w-vh/w-visits/w-
   > findaplace/w-kedles
   > tonhall
   >
   > then click on 'Meet the family' the first picture is of Lady Caroline
   > Colyear (1733-1812) daughter of the 2nd Earl of Portmore, who married
   > Nathaniel Curzon in 1750: there is a charming portrait in the Family
   > Corridor of her playing the mandolin ?? , with Nathaniel
   > standing, by
   > Arthur Devis, dated 1754. Please could you identify the instrument!
   >
   > -o-O-o-
   >
   > Any observations would be much appreciated.
   >
   > Best wishes,
   >
   > Stewart McCoy.
   >
   > -Original Message-
   > From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-
   > a...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On
   > Behalf Of Eugene C. Braig IV
   > Sent: 17 May 2010 18:19
   > To: 'Martyn Hodgson'; 'Lute Dmth'; 'Susanne Herre'
   > Subject: [LUTE] Re: lute music and playing technique in italy 18th
   > century
   >
   > > -Original Message-
   > > From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-
   > a...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On
   > > Behalf Of Martyn Hodgson
   > > Sent: Sunday, May 16, 2010 5:50 AM
   > > To: Lute Dmth; Susanne Herre
   > > Subject: [LUTE] Re: lute music and playing technique in italy 18th
   > century
   > >
   > >Did not violinists play the mandolin,
   > especially the
   > >Neapolitan wire strung instrument tuned the same?
   >
   > [Eugene C. Braig IV] However, there isn't any evidence that the
   > Neapolitan
   > type existed until the mid 18th c. at the earliest.
   > Instruments (some
   > with
   > somewhat dubious labels) don't appear until the 1740s and obvious
   > designated
   > repertoire not until the 1760s.
   >
   > Eugene
   >
   >
   >
   > To get on or off this list see list information at
   > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
   >
   >
   > --

[LUTE] Re: Mandolin at Kedleston Hall

[EUGENE BRAIG IV]

   I went digging around the web for a larger image; found this:
   http://www.bestpriceart.com/vault/cgfa_devis1.jpg
   Soundbox is portrayed a little on the large side, but this appears to
   be a classic, late 18th-c. Neapolitan mandolin.  You can also see the
   case on the bench behind the tree.  It's a nice painting.  Thanks for
   sharing.
   Best,
   Eugene
   - Original Message -
   From: Stewart McCoy 
   Date: Sunday, May 23, 2010 7:00 pm
   Subject: [LUTE] Mandolin at Kedleston Hall
   To: Lute Net 
   > Dear Eugene,
   >
   > In view of this discussion of Neapolitan mandolins, would you or
   > anyoneelse care to comment on a painting of what I believe to be
   > a Neapolitan
   > mandolin at Kedleston Hall in Derbyshire. I was recently sent the
   > following query from a friend who is researching the music there.
   >
   > -o-O-o-
   >
   > If you go to
   >
   > http://www.nationaltrust.org.uk/main/w-vh/w-visits/w-
   > findaplace/w-kedles
   > tonhall
   >
   > then click on 'Meet the family' the first picture is of Lady Caroline
   > Colyear (1733-1812) daughter of the 2nd Earl of Portmore, who married
   > Nathaniel Curzon in 1750: there is a charming portrait in the Family
   > Corridor of her playing the mandolin ?? , with Nathaniel
   > standing, by
   > Arthur Devis, dated 1754. Please could you identify the instrument!
   >
   > -o-O-o-
   >
   > Any observations would be much appreciated.
   >
   > Best wishes,
   >
   > Stewart McCoy.
   >
   > -Original Message-
   > From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-
   > a...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On
   > Behalf Of Eugene C. Braig IV
   > Sent: 17 May 2010 18:19
   > To: 'Martyn Hodgson'; 'Lute Dmth'; 'Susanne Herre'
   > Subject: [LUTE] Re: lute music and playing technique in italy 18th
   > century
   >
   > > -Original Message-
   > > From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-
   > a...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On
   > > Behalf Of Martyn Hodgson
   > > Sent: Sunday, May 16, 2010 5:50 AM
   > > To: Lute Dmth; Susanne Herre
   > > Subject: [LUTE] Re: lute music and playing technique in italy 18th
   > century
   > >
   > >Did not violinists play the mandolin,
   > especially the
   > >Neapolitan wire strung instrument tuned the same?
   >
   > [Eugene C. Braig IV] However, there isn't any evidence that the
   > Neapolitan
   > type existed until the mid 18th c. at the earliest.
   > Instruments (some
   > with
   > somewhat dubious labels) don't appear until the 1740s and obvious
   > designated
   > repertoire not until the 1760s.
   >
   > Eugene
   >
   >
   >
   > To get on or off this list see list information at
   > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
   >
   >
   > --

[LUTE] Re: playing technique of baroque mandolin

[EUGENE BRAIG IV]

   I agree with Davide.  I'm just aware of no baroque-era iconography that
   implies plectra/quills on 4th-tuned, gut strung mandolins.  If it were
   common in the pit for obligati parts, I would think plectrum use would
   be at least occasionally evident in the sketchy iconography.
   I also use quills and more modern plectra on early and modern
   Neapolitan mandolins, even on a gut-strung mandolino Toscano, so I am
   accustomed to using plectra.  I don't really gain appreciable volume
   applying quill to my 6-course mandolin/o, but in using quill, I do lose
   any bass response I get by using my fingertips.  That said, I use a
   combination of flesh and nail on my mandolin/o.
   Again, I'm just not aware of any good written references to technique
   on 4th-tuned mandolins (or reference to quill use on same) until they
   get only peripheral mention in the literature for Neapolitan mandolins
   of the latter half of the 1700s.
   Best,
   Eugene
   - Original Message -
   From: Susanne Herre 
   Date: Sunday, May 16, 2010 3:00 am
   Subject: [LUTE] playing technique of baroque mandolin
   To: "davide.rebuffa" , Lute List
   
   >
   > Dear Davide,
   >
   > Thank you for your comments!
   >
   > I still think we can not be so sure about certain things because
   > we don't
   > have much evidence.
   >
   > >  - to my knowledge - there is no evidence at all that it
   > could be played
   > > with a quill before the late XVIIIth century.
   >
   > Do you have any evidence against quill technique e.g. in operas?
   > It is possible to play with a quill...
   >
   > I know about some paintings which show the finger technique (all
   > in all we
   > don't have much, have we?) but I also saw one picture (English)
   > where there
   > seems to be a kind of plectrum. But it is an anonymous picture
   > without any
   > year. Also I have seen a still life by Baschenis where there is
   > a quill and
   > I don't believe that the violin, the harp or the lute on this
   > picture is
   > played with it...
   >
   > I can't say that I have much experience of comparing the
   > loudness of
   > different playing techniques with an audience. This maybe also
   > depends on
   > different acoustics (as I would use different bows in different
   > concert
   > rooms)
   > But I think you get a brighter sound with a quill amd then the
   > sound will
   > maybe go easier to the
   > listeners. But it is interesting to read about your experience!
   >
   > I didn't say that amteurs used finger techniques and who says
   > that playing
   > with fingers is more complex than playing with a quill?
   > If you would like to do it very well it is both not easy...
   > I was just considering that there were persons who maybe played
   > the mandolin
   > but not the lute or the theorbo.
   >
   > For the use of the quill I say it could be a possibility,
   > "maybe". It is
   > just a theory as all is what we try to find out.
   >
   > I think in the 17th and 18th century there was such a diversity
   > of things
   > and not as much standarts as today that we would be surprised
   > what is
   > possible if we would have the chance to make a journey to the
   > early times
   > ; )
   >
   > fingers: fast scales are more difficult, arpeggios more easy,
   > sound is more
   > smooth
   > quill: arpeggio is more difficult, fast scales mire easy, sound
   > is more
   > bright
   > So we try to use the advantages of the techniques. The more
   > possibilities we
   > have, the better...
   >
   > Yes I also think that in general it is easier to play fast
   > scales with thumb
   > and index. But some things are easier to do with middle
   > finger... So I think
   > the best is maybe a combination.
   >
   > If we look at Weiss he didn't use much the alternation of thumb
   > and index,
   > did he?
   > So I don't think the techniques are exactly the same because the
   > mandolinhas other musical tasks and really less strings... ; )
   >
   > I agree with you about "milanese", "lombardo" etc. but I'm tired
   > of talking
   > about that... ; )
   >
   > But I think the nomenclature of  "mandolino" and "mandolin"
   > is also not very
   > helpful because it is only a question of the language...
   > At the moment I prefer "baroque mandolin" and "neapolitan mandolin".
   >
   > I really would like to see and hear your playing! Please tell me
   > when you
   > will be playing near Cologne or do you have any video etc...?
   > And please tell me how your book is developing.
   >
   > Kind regards and thanks!
   >
   > Susanne
   >
   >
   >
   > - Original Message -
   > From: "davide.rebuffa" 
   > To: "Susanne Herre" 
   > Sent: Saturday, May 15, 2010 11:56 PM
   > Subject: Re: [LUTE] lute music and playing technique in italy
   > 18th century
   >
   >
   > > Dear Susanne,
   > >
   > > thanks for your email and your suggestions.
   > > First of all I would say that while there is evidence that ba

[LUTE] Re: Bakfark's fantasias

[EUGENE BRAIG IV]

I quite like the Homolya & Benko edition...and Bakfark music is hard...and too 
seldom recorded.

Eugene

- Original Message -
From: Andreas Schlegel 
Date: Sunday, March 7, 2010 10:09 am
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Bakfark's fantasias
To: Reinier de Valk 
Cc: "lute-cs.dartmouth.edu" 

> See Homolya, István & Benkö, Daniel (Ed.): Bakfark, Opera omnia, 
> Editio Musica Budapest
> 
> Besard, Thesaurus 22v-23r - other version of Fantasia IV of 1553
> 
> Fantasia VIII: PL-Kj 50598, 7v-8r
> Fantasia IX: PL-Kj 50598, 8v-9r
> Fantasia X: PL-Kj 50598, 21v-22r
> 
> Andreas
> 
> Am 07.03.2010 um 15:48 schrieb Reinier de Valk:
> 
> >   Dear all,
> > 
> > 
> > 
> >   Four of Bakfark's fantasias are printed in the 
> 1553 Intabulatura, and
> >   three more in the 1565 Harmoniarum musicarum. 
> Grove says there are nine
> >   of them; does anyone know where I can find the 
> other two? Neither Grove
> >   nor Brown's Instrumental Music Printed before 1600 
> provides the answer.
> > 
> > 
> > 
> >   Thanks in advance,
> > 
> >   Reinier
> > 
> >   --
> > 
> > 
> > To get on or off this list see list information at
> > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
> 
>

[LUTE] Re: Strange lute in French painting

[EUGENE BRAIG IV]

Marquetry trim is pretty common to plucked instruments of the 21st century...at 
least pretty much any one that isn't a lute.

The pegbox arrangement is quite odd.  It looks almost like a renaissance 
mandore found itself grafted onto a renaissance lute.

Eugene

- Original Message -
From: Nancy Carlin 
Date: Sunday, February 14, 2010 11:58 pm
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Strange lute in French painting
To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu

>    I think one of the most interesting things about 
> this picture is the
>    cord with the loop going along the back of the 
> instrument. Also the
>    decoration along the top edge of the sides is 
> something we fon't see in
>    this century.
>    Nancy
>    At 07:31 PM 2/14/2010, Nicolas Valencia wrote:
> 
>     Hi all,
>     I've found this lute 
> in a painting by Jacques Linard, (France,
>     1600-1645). It's 
> called "The Five Senses and the Four Elements",
>  so I
>     guess the lute 
> represents hearing. What kind of lute is this?
>     [1][1] 
> http://www.wga.hu/art/l/linard/senses.jpg    Best,
>     Nicolas
>     --
>  References
>     1. 
> [2]http://www.wga.hu/art/l/linard/senses.jpg To get on or off this list 
> see list information at
>  
> [3]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
> 
>    Nancy Carlin Associates
>    P.O. Box 6499
>    Concord, CA 94524  USA
>    phone 925/686-5800 fax 925/680-2582
>    web site - [4]www.nancycarlinassociates.com
>    Representing:
>    FROM WALES - Crasdant  & Carreg Lafar,  
> FROM ENGLAND - Jez Lowe & Jez
>    Lowe & The Bad Pennies,  FROM SPAIN - La 
> Musgana and now representing
>    EARLY MUSIC - The Venere Lute Quartet, Paul Beier, 
> The Good Pennyworths
>    & Morrongiello & Young
>    Administrator THE LUTE SOCIETY OF AMERICA
>    web site - [5]http://LuteSocietyofAmerica.org
>    --
> 
> References
> 
>    1. http://www.wga.hu/art/l/linard/senses.jpg
>    2. http://www.wga.hu/art/l/linard/senses.jpg
>    3. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>    4. http://www.nancycarlinassociates.com/
>    5. http://lutesocietyofamerica.org/
>

[LUTE] Re: Robert Spencer Collection

[EUGENE BRAIG IV]

Speak for yourself!  (Sadly, just kidding.)

Eugene

- Original Message -
From: chriswi...@yahoo.com
Date: Friday, February 12, 2010 8:49 am
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Robert Spencer Collection
To: Monica Hall 
Cc: Lutelist 

> Fortunately for the soul, playing early music and being sexually 
> active are often entirely mutually exclusive pursuits. ;-)
> 
> Chris
> 
> --- On Fri, 2/12/10, Monica Hall  wrote:
> 
> > From: Monica Hall 
> > Subject: [LUTE] Re: Robert Spencer Collection
> > To: chriswi...@yahoo.com
> > Cc: "Lutelist" 
> > Date: Friday, February 12, 2010, 2:05 AM
> > Oh dear - looks like that includes
> > most of us.
> > 
> > Monica
> > 
> > - Original Message - 
> > From: 
> > To: "Eugene C. Braig IV" ;
> > "Monica Hall" 
> > ;
> > "Christopher Stetson" 
> > Cc: "Lutelist" 
> > Sent: Thursday, February 11, 2010 10:15 PM
> > Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: Robert Spencer Collection
> > 
> > 
> > Its another "vanitas" picture.  The character in the
> > back row next to the 
> > lovers - the one smiling while pointing to them and looking
> > out at us - is 
> > obviously gaunt and skeletal.  This person probably
> > represents death or 
> > disease creeping into the midst of the group that is having
> > such a good time 
> > that they are oblivious.  This underscores the folly
> > of such wasteful 
> > pursuits such as music and sex.
> > 
> > Chris
> > 
> > --- On Thu, 2/11/10, Christopher Stetson 
> > wrote:
> > 
> > > From: Christopher Stetson 
> > > Subject: [LUTE] Re: Robert Spencer Collection
> > > To: "Eugene C. Braig IV" ,
> > "Monica Hall" 
> > > 
> > > Cc: "Lutelist" 
> > > Date: Thursday, February 11, 2010, 12:59 PM
> > > Good question,
> > > Monica.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > And I'd say, from the expression on her
> > > face and her body language,
> > > that the outcome won't necessarily be
> > > joyful for the guy, at least not
> > > for long. Depends what she does
> > > next with the cake dish.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Chris.
> > > >>> "Monica Hall" 
> > > 2/11/2010 10:37 AM >>>
> > > You mean the guy with his arms round the
> > > lady on the left. I wonder
> > > why
> > > she is holding up the cake
> > > dish. Does this have some obscure subtext?
> > > Monica
> > > - Original Message -
> > > From: "Eugene C. Braig IV" 
> > > To: "'Christopher Stetson'" ;
> > > "'Monica Hall'"
> > > 
> > > Cc: "'Lutelist'" 
> > > Sent: Thursday, February 11, 2010 3:08
> > > PM
> > > Subject: RE: [LUTE] Re: Robert Spencer
> > > Collection
> > > >> -Original Message-
> > > >> From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu
> > > [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu]
> > > On
> > > >> Behalf Of Christopher Stetson
> > > >> Sent: Saturday, February 06,
> > > 2010 5:03 PM
> > > >> To: Monica Hall
> > > >> Cc: Lutelist
> > > >> Subject: [LUTE] Re: Robert
> > > Spencer Collection
> > > >>
> > > >> Is this the one:
> > > [1]http://www.klassiskgitar.net/massys-joyful.html ?
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >> Yes, they look like
> > > a fun group.
> > > >
> > > > [Eugene C. Braig IV] Personally, I
> > > don't know, but it does look like
> > > an
> > > > especially "Joyful Reunion" for one
> > > lecher in particular.
> > > >
> > > > Eugene
> > > >
> > > To get on or off this list see list
> > > information at
> > > [1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
> > >
> > > --
> > >
> > > References
> > >
> > > 1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute
> > >
> > >
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > To get on or off this list see list information at
> > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
> > 
> 
> 
>   
> 
>

[LUTE] Re: [LUTE]New lute music and ET

[EUGENE BRAIG IV]

I haven't read Isacoff so cannot comment directly.  From knowing Isacoff only 
via your brief citation, Leonard, there is a point to be made in the 
"straight-frets" argument that seems to have been missed.  Setting unsegmented 
frets on any lute-like instrument into any non-equal temperament scheme is not 
like tuning the individual keys of a keyboard.  By setting straight frets under 
fretted strings, one sets up a series of parallel temperament schemes based 
from the intervals of the open strings.  As one moves to remote keys on a 
keyboard in any non-equal temperament scheme, there is a logical descent into 
"colorful" dissonance.  Not so much so on a fretted instrument; the progression 
becomes in illogical jumble calling more notes on the fretboard that do not fit 
the intended temperament.  This can be mitigated by "segmenting" frets via 
tastini, paired frets of differing thickness, the "enharmonic" guitars of the 
early-mid 19th c., etc., but I don't think there is evidence that the practice 
of segmenting frets was ever status quo.

I also want to point out, once again, Bartolotti's first guitar book (Florence 
1640, Minkoff 1984) in "mixed tablature", making a fair use of alfabeto chords 
engaging every string along with punteado passages.  It opens with a series of 
passcaglias, one in each key and each ending on a cadential chord that seems to 
introduce the next.  The implication is at least the possibility for through 
performance with (assumed) unsegmented frets.  Without allowing time to 
reposition frets, that just wouldn't be practical without an effort to 
approximate equal temperament.

All temperament is compromise.  Again, different musics seem to allow for 
different temperament schemes in almost any era.  There's nothing wrong with 
one temperament or the other (or, more correctly, something is wrong someplace 
with each).  I would argue more should be willing to indulge, at least 
occasionally, in both non-equal and equal temperaments as the musical occasion 
seems to call for it as determined by the performer (unless explicitly 
prescribed by a composer...which certainly isn't often, thus these recurring 
debates).

Enjoy,
Eugene

- Original Message -
From: Leonard Williams 
Date: Friday, September 25, 2009 8:44 pm
Subject: [LUTE] Re: [LUTE]New lute music and ET
To: Lute List 

>     I just read a book 
> called "Temperament" by Stuart Isacoff.  (Liked
> the Duffin book much better).  The author insists that 
> tuning for fretted
> instruments (using the lute as a prime example) was always and 
> had to have
> been in ET because the frets go straight across the fingerboard 
> (!!!).  How
> does he think they tuned frets to ET without moving the frets 
> until things
> sounded in tune: I think usually just or some meantone 
> intonation would
> result.  The author as much as states that ET was an ideal 
> that they kept
> striving for, but never really says it was achieved on a level 
> other than
> mathematical.  In the end he shares wondrous appreciation 
> or the piano music
> of Michael Harrison:  he plays and composes for his 
> Harmonic Piano tuned in
> just intonation by having 12 keys to the octave.
>     Duffin, on the other 
> hand, says that even after ET had been
> "established", many piano tuners into the 20th c. used their own 
> littleprivate tweaks to make some intervals a little 
> sweeter:  ET still not
> recognized as a perfect solution.
> 
> Regards,
> Leonard Williams
> 
> On 9/25/09 7:18 PM, "wikla"  wrote:
> 
> > On Fri, 25 Sep 2009 18:52:10 -0400, "Roman Turovsky" 
> > wrote:
> > 
> >>> Even after JSB there never was any ET for many, many years! 
> For example
> >>> Chopin never met ET. ET is an invention of 20th century.
> > 
> >> ET was invented long before, and was advocated by Galilei, 
> Frescobaldi,>> Werckmeister, and many others.
> > 
> > In the time of of Galilei, Frescobaldi, Werckmeister, and 
> "many others",
> > there was the want and eager to find a way to equalise the 
> intervals. But
> > there was no way, no tool. Even Chopin did not have that tool. 
> They wanted
> > it, but had they known, what becomes, they wouldn't have... ;-)
> > 
> > 
>  In my opinion ET lends ANY music noble and unaffected delivery.
> >>> 
> >>> Just listen to, let us say, Antonio Cabezon, or any other 
> keyboard guy
> > of
> >>> 16th c. in ET and "good temperament", and tell your 
> feelings.. (You said
> >>> "ANY music")
> > 
> >> Take some old recording of August Wenzinger for example, and 
> compare it
> > to a
> >> contemporary one.
> > 
> > Take _any_ Cabezon piece and try it by "piano"...
> > 
>  And there is no necessity of liking dodecaphony if you like ET.
> > 
> >>> I do agree. But is there really any other reason of liking 
> ET than the
> >>> want
> >>> to feel equally every possible interval, chord. key or any 
> sequence of
> >>> notes, starting where ever? Do you really want to hear - let 
> us say -
> >>> F-major sound like 

[LUTE] Re: Imbalance

[EUGENE BRAIG IV]

There is de Rossi:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Camilla_de_Rossi

...and a decent recording by JoAnn Falletta on "lute" (I'm not certain which 
incarnation of lute) of one of de Rossi's works for archlute and strings on:
Bay Area Women's Philharmonic. 1990. Baroquen Treasures. Newport Classic, 
NCD 60102.

I don't know how easy it would be to locate this recording any longer.  The 
performer, Falletta, is now pretty famous as a guitarist and conductor; She now 
has a concerto competition named in her honor:
http://www.fallettacompetition.org/

Enjoy,
Eugene

- Original Message -
From: gonzornumpl...@roadrunner.com
Date: Thursday, September 10, 2009 8:02 pm
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Imbalance
To: Lute list , Suzanne and Wayne , 
chriswi...@yahoo.com

> Hello Chris,
> Since you are actively engaged in scholarly pursuits regarding 
> the lute,
> have you run into any decomposing lute composers who have been 
> found to be women?
> 
> I only have music by Madamoiselle Bocquet.  Are there 
> others that you can identify?
> There have got to be others.  Or is it possible that women 
> were behind all of the music, especially the best pieces, but 
> didn't get any of the credit for cultural reasons?
> 
> Mark Seifert 
> 
> 
>  chriswi...@yahoo.com wrote: 
> > Suzanne,
> 
> --- On Thu, 9/10/09, Suzanne and Wayne  wrote:
> 
> > Once you've been lurking on this list for awhile, you
> > learn
> > that it has a male geek bias.
> 
> I can't believe this!  I'm utterly shocked to be hearing 
> this information for the first time!  Well, OK, let's put 
> this to the test:  Who here knows how to say "male geek 
> bias" in Medieval Latin, Ancient Greek or Klingon?
> 
> 
> Chris - geek or just smart ass?  
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>   Now as a female
> > (engineer)
> > I lived and worked in the male geek world for quite
> > awhile,
> > and so am not afraid of it, and know how to fit in. 
> > But not
> > all females feel that way.  Another factor is whether
> > you feel
> > you get something worthwhile from a list compared to the
> > volume
> > of posts, the tone of the list, and the list's
> > personality.
> > I was off the lute list for a *long* time because I didn't
> > find that tradeoff worthwhile.  I only rejoined when I
> > had
> > more leisure, and when I read on the lute page that a
> > certain
> > participant of those prior years had been permanently
> > kicked
> > off the list.
> > 
> > Suzanne
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > To get on or off this list see list information at
> > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
> > 
> 
> 
> 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > To get on or off this list see list information at
> > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
> 
>

[LUTE] Re: Ukulele and Renaissance Guitar

[EUGENE BRAIG IV]

   Way off.  Oh well...
   Eugene
   - Original Message -
   From: Rob MacKillop 
   Date: Friday, July 17, 2009 6:58 pm
   Subject: [LUTE] Re: Ukulele and Renaissance Guitar
   To: "Eugene C. Braig IV" 
   Cc: Lute List 
   >Newer. Bought on a holiday cruise to Hawaii ;-)
   >
   >
   >
   >Is this off topic, or what
   >
   >
   >
   >Rob
   >
   >2009/7/17 Eugene C. Braig IV <[1]brai...@osu.edu>
   >
   >  Recent Oscar Schmidt instruments are
   > the budget line for the new
   >  Korean-made
   >  incarnation of Washburn (i.e., the
   >  curiously-named-for-a-Korean-build US
   >  Music Corp.).  The pre-depression
   > Oscar Schmidt Co. was a builder in
   >  Jersey
   >  City, New Jersey, USA.  They were
   > always a builder of rather
   >  "working-class"
   >  instruments (including the pre-
   > depression Stella brand guitars
   >  prized by
   >  blues players), but those earlier
   > pieces had a kinda groovy mojo.
   >  As an official hardware nerd, is your
   > student's by the older or
   >  newer
   >  entity?
   >  Best,
   >  Eugene
   >
   >> -Original Message-
   >> From: [2]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu
   >[mailto:[3]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On
   >> Behalf Of Rob MacKillop
   >> Sent: Friday, July 17, 2009 5:05 PM
   >> To: Leonard Williams
   >> Cc: Lute List
   >> Subject: [LUTE] Re: Ukulele and Renaissance Guitar
   >>
   >>I play a Concert-sized uke, the
   > size larger than the usual
   >soprano, but
   >>I think a tenor would be better-
   > suited, with a low fourth string
   >>(Aquila). And don't buy the
   > cheapest. Good tenors start around
   >-L-120 -
   >>about 150 dollars. A student of
   > mine has an excellent one by a
   >company
   >>called Oscar Schmidt.
   >>
   >>
   >>
   >>Rob
   >>
   >>2009/7/17 Leonard Williams
   > <[1][4]arc...@verizon.net>   >
   >
   > > I've thought for some time of getting a cheap uke and
   >>  restringing it
   >>  to play stuff like
   > Mudarra's work for four course guitar.  I
   >thought
   >>  I might
   >>  be kidding myself,
   > but it looks like a viable option, from what
   >I'm
   >>  reading
   >>  here.
   >
   > > Any suggestions as to size (mensur) and string tension?
   >>  Thanks and regards,
   >>  Leonard Williams
   >
   > >/[ ]
   >
   > >/   \
   >
   > >   |  *  |
   >
   > >   \_=_/
   >>  On 7/17/09 2:34 AM,
   > "Rob MacKillop"
   ><[2][5]luteplay...@googlemail.com>
   >>  wrote:
   >>  >  It sounds
   > great to my ears. Hopefully this will help the 4c
   >>  guitar
   >>  >  lierature
   > become better known. Even though 4c guitars are a
   >lot
   >>  less
   >>  >  expensive
   > than 5c guitars, they are still prohibitively
   >expensive
   >>  for
   >>  >  beginners.
   > A uke can cost less than a set of strings for a
   >4c,
   >>  and
   >>  >  really
   > doesn't sound so bad. There is, of course, a
   >difference,
   >>  and I
   >>  >  hope that
   > those who approach the 4c repertoire on a uke do
   >make
   >>  the
   >>  >  transition
   > to an appropriate instrument once they realise the
   >>  >  limitations
   > of the uke. We shall see. BTW, sounds even better
   >>  with gut
   >>  >  strings...
   >>  >
   >>  >
   >>  >
   >>  >  Rob
   >>  >
   >>  >  2009/7/16
   > Orphenica <[1][3][6]wer...@orphenica.de>
   >>  >
   >>  >  Thanks everybody,
   >>  >  encouraged
   > by your answers and especially the amazing site of
   >Rob
   >>  >  MacKillop
   > (Rob, this is really georgeous!),
   >>  >  I went to
   > my local guitar dealer. ( By the way, his initial
   >>  selling
   >>  >  point was
   > that, "the babes like small instruments" ;-)
   >>  >  Finally I
   > bought a tenor uke tuned like a guitar, which
   >sounds
   >>  good
   >>  >  with Aquila
   > strings. In an old Django version,
   >>  >  I found Le
   > Roys "Tablature de Gviterre", which was  good
   >starter.
   >>  >  Here is a
   > sample: [2][4][7]http://www.lutecast.com
   >>  >  I think the
   > uke is  perfect for outdoor playing. Tomorrow, I
   >will
   >>  test
   >>  >  my new
   > small tool on the babes lingering in the park.
   >>  >  Uhuh,
   > Beavis, he said "small tool".
   >>  >  Thanks, oh
   > collective stringdom and keep the strings
   >swinging.
   >>  >   we
   >>  

[LUTE] Re: La Furstenberg

[EUGENE BRAIG IV]

I received the following directly regarding a conference to which I contributed 
little more than reference to a lengthy 18th-c. set of variations for mandolin. 
 Does anybody have text for this melody?  Please reply directly to 
Fabrice HOLVOET .

> Hello,
> 
> I read on
> http://www.mail-archive.com/lute@cs.dartmouth.edu/msg29031.html
> 
> * The song is possibly a mockery of the countess of that name, who was
> said to be the Bishop of Strasbourg's mistress.
> I would like to include this song in one of my projects but if the melody is
> well known and available, I can't fing the text.Can you help me on this
> point ?Thank you in advance for your attention and reply.Fabrice
> HOLVOETKarel Gilsonstraat, 9 - 1601 Ruisbroek - Belgiquewww.holvoet.org  -
> m...@holvoet.org - Tel +32/(0)2/377.81.27



To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Lute recordings in meantone

[EUGENE BRAIG IV]

   E...
   - Original Message -
   From: Rob MacKillop 
   Date: Tuesday, May 26, 2009 6:14 pm
   Subject: [LUTE] Re: Lute recordings in meantone
   To: "Eugene C. Braig IV" 
   Cc: Lute List 
   >Has anyone heard of a well-tempered lute player?
   >--
   >
   >
   >
   > To get on or off this list see list information at
   > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html --

[LUTE] Re: frequent re-fretting, a must... was nylon frets

[EUGENE BRAIG IV]

   What would a sewer pipe be doing in a tuxedo!?
   Facetiously,
   Eugene
   - Original Message -
   From: chriswi...@yahoo.com
   Date: Saturday, March 21, 2009 12:26 pm
   Subject: [LUTE] Re: frequent re-fretting, a must... was nylon frets
   To: List LUTELIST , ml
   
   >
   > Manolo,
   >
   >  I'm bad.  Very bad.  I _hate_
   > changing frets!  Makes me break out in a cold sweat, hives
   > and diarrhea every time, it makes me so nervous.  I'd
   > rather clean out a backed-up sewage pipe in a tuxedo than put
   > new frets on even though it definitely sounds and feels better
   > when I do.
   >
   > This might have something to do with the fact that I once had a
   > couple of otherwise fine bass strings unexpectedly snap on my
   > theorbo as I was using a lighter to finish the fret knot. Of
   > course, it happened right before a recording session.
   > This, despite the fact that I was bending back the strings quite
   > far away from the small flame.  There's a nice extra bill
   > for you!  ..and a theorbo that was useless until I could
   > get new strings since I don't keep a stash of low diapasons on
   > hand.  (Any of those guys we order strings from are always
   > sooo agonizingly slow getting strings out to us.)
   >
   > Then there was the time I recently had to put new frets on a
   > student's lute.  In a tiny college practice room.
   > With a smoke detector.  Using someone's borrowed
   > matches.  I was sure I was going to set the fire alarm and
   > sprinklers off and ruin everybody's $400,000 violins and cellos.
   >
   > Chris
   >
   >
   >
   >
   > --- On Sat, 3/21/09, ml  wrote:
   >
   > > From: ml 
   > > Subject: [LUTE] Re: frequent re-fretting, a must... was nylon frets
   > > To: "List LUTELIST" 
   > > Date: Saturday, March 21, 2009, 7:44 AM
   > > I would avoid using nylon for fretting.
   > > A 6 c. lute I used to have had them, the builder himself
   > > did it. When I changed to gut the sound changed for good.
   > > Let's say that it sounded less bad with gut then with
   > > nylon, all other things being the same.
   > > OK, nylon frets last forever, but this is a minor benefit,
   > > because changing gut frets is not difficult at all, perhaps
   > > only the 1st. I've seen it so often: a lute with new
   > > frets has a much better sound! Strange, how we can be so
   > > lousy, and not change frets more frequently...
   > > But perhaps this was said to you already by others in this
   > > list.
   > >
   > > Manolo
   > >
   > >
   > >
   > >
   > >
   > > El 21/03/2009, a las 12:13, Omer Katzir escribio:
   > >
   > > > For the past two hours I've replaced the frets in
   > > my lute for a nylon frets, old b string for guitar.
   > > >
   > > > It took some time, and I replaced only four for now
   > > (my hands hurts) but at least in know how to handle that.
   > > >
   > > > Now, from the front It doesn't looks very weird,
   > > just a neck with frets. in the back, it doesn't look
   > > really good. I have to use pieces of tape to stretch the
   > > fret. But its not s bad...I think I can handle that...at
   > > least until May.
   > > >
   > > > Thank you everybody!
   > > > I will supply pictures if you want :-)
   > > >
   > > >
   > > >
   > > > To get on or off this list see list information at
   > > > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
   >
   >
   >
   >
   > --

[LUTE] Re: glueing back decoration

[EUGENE BRAIG IV]

   I have to preface my remarks with the fact that I am not a luthier and
   do not execute any but the most trivial repair work myself.  However, I
   own several original 19th-c. instruments that are old, assembled with
   glue and timbers that are now old, and thus are in somewhat frequent
   need of maintenance and repair.  I don't do the work, but do have some
   stubborn opinions about how I like such work done.
   Cyanoacrylate can be useful to repair some cracks/breaks in single
   pieces/panels of wood.  I do not like the concept of using it in
   separated glue joints.  Yes, it can be separated with acetone, but it
   can take some real soaking to get into a well-glued joint.  It is very
   hard and can be brittle.  It also can soak very deeply into fibrous
   material.
   White (typical school-room paper glues) or yellow (typical modern wood
   glues) glue is also known as aliphatic resin.  They are vinyl based
   (polyvinyl acetate or PVA).  It's what is used to assemble most modern
   wood joints, including on most modern musical instruments.  It's easy
   to work, and sets relatively quickly, but not TOO quickly.  Its
   disadvantages are that it is rather flexible and thus tends to "creep"
   under tension, and it is persistent and gummy, often requiring a fair
   amount of scraping if you want to reverse it.
   I value repair efforts executed with an eye to the intent of the
   original build; I believe them to be the most minimally invasive.  The
   bottom line, I personally would want the separated joint repaired with
   whatever adhesive originally assembled it.  If that was hide glue, and
   you yourself cannot work hide glue, why not just leave it as is until
   you can get it to a luthier who does?  This obviously is not a joint
   necessary to the function of the instrument and shouldn't impede your
   ability to play it so long as you play it with sufficient care to not
   further damage the separation.
   Luck,
   Eugene
   - Original Message -
   From: Anthony Hind 
   Date: Sunday, March 15, 2009 6:57 am
   Subject: [LUTE] glueing back decoration
   To: lute List 
   > Dear Lutenists
   >   While
   > carrying out my latest octave tweak, replacing the
   > octaves with Venice Meanes, I left the string a little too long:
   > once
   > the strings were up to tension, the thickness at the peg, pushed
   > out
   > the pegbox decoration.
   > Here is a picture of how it was before this occurred:
   > http://tinyurl.com/atnlcb
   >
   > My question, what glue, apart from hide glue (without heating)
   > can I
   > use to glue it back? I suppose it must be reversible.
   >
   > I imagine it only needs a small drop, as it has only moved in
   > the
   > last upper 3rd.
   >
   > I would be grateful for suggestions.
   > Regards
   > Anthony
   >
   >
   >
   > To get on or off this list see list information at
   > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html --

[LUTE] Re: Staff notation software - views?

[EUGENE BRAIG IV]

   All kinds, including g-to-g'' mandolino/mandola?
   Eugene
   - Original Message -
   From: Ed Durbrow 
   Date: Sunday, February 22, 2009 3:27 am
   Subject: [LUTE] Re: Staff notation software - views?
   To: hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk, LuteNet list 
   > Harmony Assistant from Myriad is worth a look. It does tab too
   > and
   > has presets for all kinds of lutes.
   >
   >
   >
   > To get on or off this list see list information at
   > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html --

[LUTE] Re: possible scam warning!!!!! be careful.... from Anton Birula

[EUGENE BRAIG IV]

..And, as far as I know, the person named as a maker has never built 
instruments, but instead makes inset guitar/vihuela/mandolin roses for hire.

Eugene

- Original Message -
From: Wayne Cripps 
Date: Wednesday, February 18, 2009 5:18 pm
Subject: [LUTE] Re: possible scam warning! be careful from Anton Birula
To: image...@yahoo.com (Anton Birula)
Cc: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu

>
> Hello Anton -
>
> I got that message too, and I think that everyone selling
> a lute
> on my web page got a copy. If you look closely at the
> guitars pictured
> (from the Barber and Harris web page) you will see that they are
> all different! It is a scam.
>
> And I don't have a front door in Finland, either!
>
> Wayne
>
> >
> > Dear List,
> >
> > Want to inform you about suspected scam. I received and email
> from Brad Baker, offering a baroque guitar which looked too good
> to be real, then I even called the guy but once I asked more
> detailes he pretended he does not hear me Then I serched in
> google and got this:
> >
> > http://www.650motorcycles.com/ForSale.html
> >
> > Just to warn you. looks like a set up
> >
> > Best wishes Anton
> >
> >
> ==>
> > Hi,
> >
> > I am Brad Baker.I came accross your wanted advert and email
> address on
> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute/forsale.html#wanted I
> would like to inform you that i have 5 course baroque guitar For
> Sale @ $900(Give Away Price)including shipping to your front
> door in Finland via Courier express delivery.The price of this
> lutes are more than $2,500.You can't get it this
> price($900)anywhere.Hurry up now,this is give away price.
> >
> > I await your reply.
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Brad Baker
> > Tel:+44 702 403 8157(dial direct)
> >
> > --- On Tue, 2/17/09, LUTE DUO Anna Kowalska & Anton Birula
>  wrote:
> > From: LUTE DUO Anna Kowalska & Anton Birula 
> > Subject: Re: 5 course baroque guitar For Sale $900(Give Away Price)
> > To: "Brad Baker" 
> > Date: Tuesday, February 17, 2009, 10:42 PM
> >
> >
> >
> > I am afraid you are mistaken , my ddress is not on wanted
> list... but it is interesting in a way... who made the instrument?
> > Anton
> >
> >
> > Hi Anton,
> >
> > Thank you for your email.This is not a mistake.I just want to
> sell it at an auction price of $900 because my wife is very sick
> of cancer so she needs emergency operation.It is made by Elena
> dal Cortivo.The price of this lute is over $2,500 but i just
> want to give it away $900 because of my wife bad cancer
> problem.The $900 also include shipping and handling charges to
> your shipping address.Where are you located?I would also need
> your shipping address for the shipment.I will ship as soon as i
> confirm payment..I am located in London,England.I will ship via
> UPS or Fed Ex express delivery.
> >
> > I await your reply.
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > Brad Baker
> > Tel:+44 702 403 8157(dial direct)
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > To get on or off this list see list information at
> > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
> >
>
>


--

[LUTE] Re: Staff notation software - views?

[EUGENE BRAIG IV]

I think amongst those who use notation software with somewhat professional 
intent, some manner of keystroke entry is key and certainly key to efficiency.  
Point and click entry is too slow and too toy-like.

Eugene

- Original Message -
From: alexander 
Date: Saturday, February 14, 2009 8:33 am
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Staff notation software - views?
To: hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
Cc: 'Lute Dmth' , "Eugene C. Braig IV" 

> If saving the time is at issue, by all means - computer way. I 
> used pen (actually - pencil - much faster) - paper - copier for 
> years and years. To produce a one average 12 stave page simple 
> part with a fair number of 16ths than someone else besides self 
> will be able to read took about 30 minutes. Then i tried a few 
> programs, and went by reducing the time needed, with results 
> improved. The same part on Lilypond takes me now under 5 minutes 
> (no bluffing here, - i have set the keyboard with note names 
> under left fingers and values in the right, and have templates 
> for every possible set-up prepared, just enter the notes). The 
> learning curve (though the improvement never actually stops) to 
> produce the very first good part, was about two - three hours. 
> The advantages are: an immediate redesign of number of pages, 
> sizes, line breaks, bars- no  bar lines, ad intinitum, and 
> the whole library of music on a flash drive. Now i just keep a 
> printer in the rehearsal room, and no one complains about my 
> handwriting!alexander
> 
> 
> On Sat, 14 Feb 2009 09:43:43 + (GMT)
> Martyn Hodgson  wrote:
> 
> > 
> > 
> >    Thank you Eugene,
> > 
> >    I use pen and paper copies now but, since so 
> many collegues seem to be
> >    producing computer set parts these days, 
> thought that using the
> >    appropriate software might not be as time 
> consuming as I feared (I
> >    can't quite believe that it takes less time 
> to enter a note via a
> >    keyboard than by writing it).  I might 
> stick to photocopied MS
> >    parts
> > 
> >    Martyn
> >    --- On Fri, 13/2/09, Eugene C. Braig IV 
>  wrote:
> > 
> 
> 
> 
> To get on or off this list see list information at
> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: RH position, was: Dilettantism

[EUGENE BRAIG IV]

I simply meant moral implications followed the literal "lefterly" meaning of 
the word, whether tacked on during the reign of Rome or otherwise.  Unlike 
"sinister", I believe the word "sinistral" rarely carries moral implications to 
English speakers, being more associated with technical or scientific usages.  
My point remains that I was not offering any moral implications with my initial 
use of the word "sinistral."  

...But can we now chat on lutes instead?

Best,
Eugene

- Original Message -
From: David Tayler 
Date: Monday, February 9, 2009 8:42 pm
Subject: [LUTE] Re: RH position, was: Dilettantism
To: "lute-cs.dartmouth.edu" 

> I don't kniow what you mean by "later"-- the moral implications 
> were 
> added at least as early as the Roman Empire.
> It has to do with Augury.
> The augurs, interestingly enough, formed a collegium.
> dt
> 
> 
> At 02:31 PM 2/9/2009, you wrote:
> >No stance on morality was intended to be implied.  
> Sinistral literally means
> >left handed/oriented.  The moral implications were added later.
> >
> >Best,
> >Eugene
> >
> >
> > > -Original Message-
> > > From: Jean-Marie Poirier [mailto:jmpoiri...@wanadoo.fr]
> > > Sent: Monday, February 09, 2009 5:07 PM
> > > To: lute
> > > Subject: [LUTE] Re: RH position, was: Dilettantism
> > >
> > > What about this picture from 1601 (by Philippe Galle) :
> > > http://le.luth.free.fr/lefties.htm
> > > When in the same picture you can see an right-handed player 
> and a left-
> > > handed one, I suppose it adds up to admitting that lefties 
> did exist, even
> > > in a very small proportion, just like now.
> > > And I don't really buy the "moral" justification to the 
> representation of
> > > a lefty player...
> > >
> > > Best,
> > >
> > > Jean-Marie, one rather happy lefty in the oppressed minority 
> ;-)))
> > >
> > > === 09-02-2009 21:45:56 ===
> > >
> > > >
> > > >The quid non sentit amor is the one I was thinking of
> > > 
> >http://emblems.let.uu.nl/c1627_facsimile.html?thumb=tekst254&emblem=43> > >
> > > >Lefty or reversi?
> > > >
> > > >  1627 or therabouts my Dutch is rusty.
> > > >Use the ZOOM button at the bottom to see the OUD like plectrum.
> > > >Ooops there is English too--not very helpful.
> > > >
> > > >dt
> > > >
> > > >>I still contend there may have been a few to many left-
> handed lute
> > > players:
> > > >>perhaps as broadly represented as within the population at 
> large,> > perhaps
> > > >>even more so.  Nobody knows.  Being right-handed 
> and fretting with the
> > > left
> > > >>hand are not a perfect corollaries.  It also is not 
> mandatory for
> > > lefties to
> > > >>place the neck of a stringed instrument in their right 
> hand.  I don't, I
> > > >>never have, and I was never discouraged from expressing my 
> inherent> > >>sinistral tendencies.  I also don't dictate 
> to my sinistral clan that my
> > > way
> > > >>(the standard way) is the only way.  Make it work 
> however you can.
> > > >>
> > > >>Best,
> > > >>Eugene
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >> > -Original Message-
> > > >> > From: David Tayler [mailto:vidan...@sbcglobal.net]
> > > >> > Sent: Monday, February 09, 2009 3:18 PM
> > > >> > To: lute-cs.dartmouth.edu
> > > >> > Subject: [LUTE] Re: RH position, was: Dilettantism
> > > >> >
> > > >> > Obviously, because there were no lefty lute players. 
> Except for
> > > >> > Leonardo da Vinci.
> > > >> > There are some nice lefty lute player images in the 
> fabulous emblem
> > > >> > collection that was posted here recently.
> > > >> > dt
> > > >> >
> > > >> >
> > > >> > At 04:25 AM 2/9/2009, you wrote:
> > > >> > >On Mon, Feb 9, 2009 at 11:56 AM, Jean-Marie Poirier
> > > >> > > wrote:
> > > >> > > > May I remind all of you interested in that thread 
> on hand
> > > >> > > position, that I had put up a couple of web pages with
> > > iconographical
> > > >> > > >
> > > >> > >http://le.luth.free.fr/
> > > >> > >
> > > >> > >Nice pages, and not a lefty in sight!
> > > >> > >
> > > >> > >David
> > > >> > >
> > > >> > >--
> > > >> > >***
> > > >> > >David van Ooijen
> > > >> > >davidvanooi...@gmail.com
> > > >> > >www.davidvanooijen.nl
> > > >> > >***
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>To get on or off this list see list information at
> > > >>http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> -
> > > --
> > > >Orange vous informe que cet  e-mail a ete controle par 
> l'anti-virus mail.
> > > >Aucun virus connu a ce jour par nos services n'a ete detecte.
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > > = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> > >
> > > jmpoiri...@wanadoo.fr
> > > http://poirierjm.free.fr
> > > 09-02-2009
> > >
> 
>

[LUTE] Re: Holborne's New Year's Gift

[EUGENE BRAIG IV]

- Original Message -
From: Stuart Walsh 
Date: Monday, December 29, 2008 6:52 pm
Subject: [LUTE] Holborne's  New Year's Gift
To: Lute Net 
 
> I haven't looked at this in years...It's a tricky one, I think - 
> and I can't find a version of it played on a lute.

Here's one:

Marincola, Federico. 1995. Holborne: Pieces for Lute. Disques Pierre Verany, 
PV795112.

An excellent disc, but I'm afraid it's no longer easy to find for sale.

Best,
Eugene



To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Respighi

[EUGENE BRAIG IV]

- Original Message -
From: Arthur Ness <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Sunday, September 28, 2008 3:27 pm
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Respighi
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED], Paul Pleijsier <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Cc: Lute Net 

>
> Please don't misunderstand me...
> No one has questioned the lutenist's veracity then or now, or his ability to 
> vouch for the
> authenticy of the manuscript shown him.  No one, that is, except for Eugene 
> and Matanya.

I could ask that you please not misunderstand me, but that seems to be 
completely fruitless at this point, Arthur.  Most thinking people with the 
discipline to be able to have earned a PhD understand that there is a 
tremendous difference between saying that I have seen nothing that can be 
externally verified by the community at large and expressing doubt in anybody's 
veracity or calling anybody a liar.  I clearly stated that I adhere to the 
former position; you continually equate that to the latter.  There also is a 
tremendous difference between listing a number of hypotheticals and arguing 
that any one of them is fact in the absence of evidence.  I am not interested 
in arguing in favor of a position I do not hold.  Remember, this whole stupid 
affair came of a single naive sentence in reference to a topic in which I have 
nothing more than a trivial interest.  You may now feel free to stop using my 
name in reference to this topic.

Sincerely,
Eugene


--

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http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Lineage of early Guitars

[EUGENE BRAIG IV]

- Original Message -
From: Joshua Horn <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Tuesday, September 23, 2008 8:00 am
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Lineage of early Guitars
To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu

> There's got to be some relation between my
> Classical Guitar and Lutes
> and such. Because with the right tuning, I get the
> same pitches as a
> Lute or Vihuela. (capo 3rd fret). --

Capotasto at three is popular, but really pretty inconsequential. Pitch was 
much more plastic and less standardized until recent times. The more 
substantial difference between guitars in their common standard tunings and 
lute-like things of so-called renaissance tuning is the position of the third 
in relation to the highest string.

Best,
Eugene


--

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http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Respighi

[EUGENE BRAIG IV]

Greetings Arthur et al.

I very sincerely intended no disrespect in referring to the existence of the 
original as a rumor. I have read these accounts before. I do not know the 
lutenist referenced nor the owner of the manuscript. I am also a biologist who 
deals with wild things. Eyewitness accounts are why the Loch Ness monster isn't 
on the books amongst those in my profession. I am not doubting what the 
lutenist in question saw. It's only that I have not seen it, have not seen this 
referenced in any known catalogues, have not had any corroboration beyond this 
singular account, etc. Again, I very sincerely intend absolutely no disrespect, 
but without more than a single un-verifiable account, this particular book is 
rumor from my perspective. I do not claim to speak from anybody else's 
perspective.

I am also very fully aware that Respighi drew from a great many sources 
(Roncalli's guitar music, e.g.). Feel free to read again: nowhere did I write 
nor intend to imply that Respighi only drew from the Codice 
Lauten-Buch--nowehere did I write that whole of Respighi's Ancient Airs could 
be located in Chilesotti's Codice Lauten-Buch. Anybody who took me to mean that 
Chilesotti's Codice Lauten-Buch was Respighi's sole source read far more in my 
brief note than I'd actually written. Also, anybody who dedicates years to a 
musicological wild goose chase based upon what a biologist/amateur musician 
posts to a public electronic forum deserves to find nothing at all.

I also do not represent some kind of isolated, isolationist "guitar world" any 
more than I do an even odder 6-course, baroque-era mandolino world...or a 
pre-Chambure, speculative vihuela world. Personally, I love everybody's music 
and wouldn't dare to contain myself to one facet.

Again, I intended no disrespect at all, but there is nothing I or the 
interested public can confirm of tablature originals of Chilesotti's Codice 
Lauten-Buch. That was my only point.

Sincerely,
Eugene


- Original Message -
From: Arthur Ness <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Sunday, September 21, 2008 6:07 pm
Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: Respighi
To: "Eugene C. Braig IV" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, List Lute 


> - Original Message -
> From: "Eugene C. Braig IV" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: "List Lute" 
> Sent: Wednesday, September 17, 2008 2:36 PM
> Subject: [LUTE] Re: Respighi
>
>
> | At 09:40 PM 9/16/2008, howard posner wrote:
> | >In 1994 Dick Hoban's Lyre Music Publications published "Oscar
> | >Chilesotti's Da un Codice Lauten-buch," Dick's re-
> intabulation of
> | >Chilesotti's transcriptions in neat, easy-to-read large-type French
> | >tablature, spiral bound. You can order it from:
> | >
> | >http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lyre/lyre.html
> |
> | Because original tablature versions of the Chilesotti book
> only appear
> to
> | exist in occasionally-referenced, third-person rumors, I
> believe Paul
> | O'Dette took a similar approach to his "Ancient Airs" recording:
> | re-intabulating from Chilesotti's staff-notation version.
> 
> Dear Eugene,
>
> This common misunderstanding about the
> Respighi Ancient Aires seems to surface from the guitar world each
> and every time the Respighi suites are mentioned! All you
> do is send
> readers on a wild goose chase looking for pieces that are NOT in the
> Codice Lauten-Buch.
>
> Can you imagine how frustrating it is to look through
> 100 scores in an attempt to find a work that is not there?
>
> We've all done t.
>
> First--fast through. Nothing.
> Slower. Nothing.
> "But Eugene said they're there."
> Once more--very slowly and carefully.
> Damn! There's no
> there there!
>
> All of the transcriptions used by Respighi come from SEVERAL articles
> on lute music published by Chilesotti in various places,
> including some
> rather obscure Italian music journals, which are particularly
> troublesometo locate. The three suites (publ. 1917, 1923 and
> 1931--after OC's death
> in 1916) contain 24 pieces, and ONLY SIX are taken from the Codice
> Lauten-Buch! And the tablature for one of the six pieces
> is reproduced
> in Chilesotti's book in facsimile. So one would only have to
> re-intabulate 5 of the pieces, because all of the others are available
> in the original tablatures, many in convenient facsimile
> editions or
> modern editions wth tablature.
>
> As for the "third-person rumors," I take exception elsewhere in this
> thread. I'd rather say they are not rumors, but an "eye-
> witness account"
> by a professional Italian lutenist who played a private recital
> in the
> home of the manuscript's current owner in the late 1990s.
> He is said to
> have performed
> directly directly from the original manuscript "Lauten-Buch."
>
> AJN
> 
> <>
> | Best,
> | Eugene
> |
> |
> |
> | To get on or off this list see list information at
> | http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
> |
>
>


--

[LUTE] Re: The London Manuscript

[EUGENE BRAIG IV]

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   messa= ges when replying via
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   =3D3CBR=3D3E=3D26gt=3D3B=3CB= R=3E=26gt=3B =26nbsp=3B=26nbsp=3B
   =3D3CBR=3D3E=3D26gt=3D3B -Original= Message-=3CBR=3E=26gt=3B
   =3D3CBR=3D3E=3D26=3D gt=3D3B From=3D3A=3CB= R=3E=26gt=3B
   =26nbsp=3B=26nbsp=3B Narada =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =3D5Bmailto=3D=
   3Ablues=3D2Efor=3D2Enarada=3D40ntlworld=3D2Ecom=3D5D=3D=26nbsp=3B=26nbs
   p= =3B =3D3CBR=3D3E=3D26gt=3D3B Sent=3D3A 12 June 2008
   00=3D3A35=3D3CBR=3D3= E=3D26gt=3D3B To=3D3A=3CBR=3E=26gt=3B
   =26nbsp=3B=26nbsp=3B =3D27=3D Edwa= rd
   Martin=3D27=3D3CBR=3D3E=3D26gt=3D3B Subject=3D3A =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B
   RE=3D= 3A =3D5BLUTE=3D5D The=3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26nbsp=3B=26nbsp=3B
   London =3D Ma= nuscript=3D3CBR=3D3E=3D26gt=3D3B =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B
   =3D3CBR=3D3E=3D26gt=3D= 3B Hi=3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26nbsp=3B=26nbsp=3B
   Ed=3D2C=3D3CBR=3D3E=3D26gt=3D= 3B =3D3C=3D BR=3D3E=3D26gt=3D3B It is a
   =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B recording by Mi= chel=3CBR=3E=26gt=3B
   =26nbsp=3B=26nbsp=3B Cardin=3D2E There are 12 Cd=3D= 27s =3D in
   total=3D2E =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =3D3CBR=3D3E=3D26gt=3D3B Vol 3=3C=
   BR=3E=26gt=3B =26nbsp=3B=26nbsp=3B is=3D3CBR=3D3E=3D26gt=3D3B Suite no7
   = =3D26amp=3D3B=3D no =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B
   8=3D2E=3D3CBR=3D3E=3D26gt=3D3B=26nb= sp=3B=26nbsp=3B
   =3D3CBR=3D3E=3D26gt=3D3B I wanted to =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B or= der the lot
   but =3D her indoors wasn=3D27t=3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26nbsp=3B=26= nbsp=3B
   impressed=3D2E Makes=3D3CBR=3D3E=3D26gt=3D3B O=3D27Dettes =3CBR=3E=
   =26gt=3B compl=3D ete Dowland look a=3CBR=3E=26gt=3B
   =26nbsp=3B=26nbsp=3B= bit minimal as a tour de force=3D2E
   =3D3CBR=3D3E=3D26gt=3D3B =3CBR=3E=26= gt=3B =3D3C=3D
   BR=3D3E=3D26gt=3D3B=3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26nbsp=3B=26nbsp=3B = I=3D27m
   starting to think who else has recorded =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =3D27ma=
   ssive=3D27=3D=26nbsp=3B=26nbsp=3B
   manuscripts=3D2E=3D3CBR=3D3E=3D26gt=3D= 3B =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B
   =3D3CBR=3D3E=3D26gt=3D3B I=3D27m listening to=3CBR=3E= =26gt=3B
   =26nbsp=3B=26nbsp=3B this=3D volume again=3D2E It is wonderful=3D=
   2E=3D3CBR=3D3E=3D26gt=3D3B=3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26nbsp=3B=26nbsp=3B
   =3D3CBR=3D= 3E=3D26gt=3D3B Bes=3D t Regards=3D3CBR=3D3E=3D26gt=3D3B
   =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B= =3D3CBR=3D3E=3D26gt=3D3B=26nbsp=3B=26nbsp=3B
   Neil=3D3CBR=3D3E=3D26gt=3D= 3B =3D3CBR=3D3E=3D =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B
   =3D26gt=3D3B -Original=3CBR=3E=26= gt=3B =26nbsp=3B=26nbsp=3B
   Message-=3D3CBR=3D3E=3D26gt=3D3B From=3D3= A Edward Marti=3D
   n=3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26nbsp=3B=26nbsp=3B =3D5Bmailto=3D3=
   Aed=3D40gamutstrings=3D2Ecom=3D5D =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B
   =3D3CBR=3D3E=3D26gt=3D= 3B Sent=3D3A 11 Jun=3D=3CBR=3E=26gt=3B
   =26nbsp=3B=26nbsp=3B e 2008 23=3D= 3A02=3D3CBR=3D3E

[LUTE] Re: The London Manuscript

[EUGENE BRAIG IV]

   Vol=2E3 also has suite no=2E9=2E=26nbsp=3B The first 11 vols=2E were
   rel= eased on the Canadian label SNE=2C but vol=2E12 was released
   independent= ly (that last vol=2E=2C all reconstructed flute-lute
   duos)=2E=26nbsp=3B = A couple-few years ago=2C Michel was negotiating
   to have the whole set r= elease as a boxed collection (I believe
   potentially through H=3CFONT fac= e=3D=22Times New Roman=2C
   serif=22=3E=E4=3C/FONT=3Enssler)=2E=26nbsp=3B = I haven=27t heard
   anything for a while and suspect that effort never bor= e
   fruit=2E=3CBR=3E=26nbsp=3B=3CBR=3EBest=2C=3CBR=3EEugene=3CBR=3E=3CBR=3E
   = =3CBR=3E- Original Message -=3CBR=3EFrom=3A Narada
   =26lt=3Bblues= =2Efor=2Enarada=40ntlworld=2Ecom=26gt=3B=3CBR=3EDate=3A
   Wednesday=2C Jun= e 11=2C 2008 7=3A41 pm=3CBR=3ESubject=3A =5BLUTE=5D
   Re=3A The London Man= uscript=3CBR=3ETo=3A
   lute=40cs=2Edartmouth=2Eedu=3CBR=3E=3CBR=3E=26gt=3B= =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B
   =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B -Original Message-=3CBR=3E=26= gt=3B From=3A
   Narada =5Bmailto=3Ablues=2Efor=2Enarada=40ntlworld=2Ecom=5D=
   =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B Sent=3A 12 June 2008 00=3A35=3CBR=3E=26gt=3B To=3A
   =27= Edward Martin=27=3CBR=3E=26gt=3B Subject=3A RE=3A =5BLUTE=5D The
   London = Manuscript=3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B Hi
   Ed=2C=3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =3C= BR=3E=26gt=3B It is a recording by Michel
   Cardin=2E There are 12 Cd=27s = in total=2E =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B Vol 3
   is=3CBR=3E=26gt=3B Suite no7 =26amp=3B= no 8=2E=3CBR=3E=26gt=3B
   =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B I wanted to order the lot but = her indoors wasn=27t
   impressed=2E Makes=3CBR=3E=26gt=3B O=27Dettes compl= ete Dowland look a
   bit minimal as a tour de force=2E =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =3C= BR=3E=26gt=3B
   I=27m starting to think who else has recorded =27massive=27=
   manuscripts=2E=3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B I=27m listening to
   this= volume again=2E It is wonderful=2E=3CBR=3E=26gt=3B
   =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B Bes= t Regards=3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B
   Neil=3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =3CBR=3E= =26gt=3B -Original
   Message-=3CBR=3E=26gt=3B From=3A Edward Marti= n
   =5Bmailto=3Aed=40gamutstrings=2Ecom=5D =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B Sent=3A 11 Jun=
   e 2008 23=3A02=3CBR=3E=26gt=3B To=3A Narada=3CBR=3E=26gt=3B Subject=3A
   R= e=3A =5BLUTE=5D The London Manuscript=3CBR=3E=26gt=3B
   =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B H= ow did you listen=3F=26nbsp=3B Is it a
   recording=3F=26nbsp=3B If so=2C w= ho is =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B the recording
   =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B artist=3F=26nbsp=3B= I assume it is SL
   Weiss=2E=3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B ed=3CBR=3E=26= gt=3B
   =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B At 07=3A39 PM 6/11/2008 +0100=2C you wrote=3A=3CB=
   R=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3BGreetings=2C=3CBR=3E=26gt=3B
   =26gt=3B=3CBR=3E=26gt=3B= =26gt=3BI=27ve just listened to vol 3 of this
   work=2C amazing stuff=2E = Is any =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B of
   it=3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3Bavailable as Froni= mo
   files=3F=3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B=3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3BRegards=3CB=
   R=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B=3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3BN=3CBR=3E=26gt=3B
   =26gt=3B= =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B--=3CBR=3E=26gt=3B
   =26gt=3B=3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26= gt=3BTo get on or off this list see list
   information at=3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =
   =26gt=3Bhttp=3A//www=2Ecs=2Edartmouth=2Eedu/=7Ewbc/lute-admin/index=2Eh
   t= ml=3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B=3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B=3CBR=3E=26gt=3B
   =26= gt=3B--=3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3BNo virus found in this incoming
   message=2E= =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3BChecked by AVG=2E=3CBR=3E=26gt=3B
   =26gt=3BVersi= on=3A 7=2E5=2E524 / Virus Database=3A 270=2E2=2E0/1495 -
   Release Date=3A= =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B 6/10/2008 =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B
   =26gt=3B5=3A11 PM=3CBR=3E=26= gt=3B =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B
   =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B Edward Martin=3C= BR=3E=26gt=3B 2817 East 2nd
   Street=3CBR=3E=26gt=3B Duluth=2C Minnesota=26= nbsp=3B
   55812=3CBR=3E=26gt=3B e-mail=3A=26nbsp=3B ed=40gamutstrings=2Eco=
   m=3CBR=3E=26gt=3B voice=3A=26nbsp=3B (218) 728-1202=3CBR=3E=26gt=3B
   =3CB= R=3E=26gt=3B =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B
   --


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[LUTE] Re: medieval plectrum, how to make?

[EUGENE BRAIG IV]

   - Original Message -
   From: howard posner <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
   Date: Saturday, June 7, 2008 8:39 pm
   Subject: [LUTE] Re: medieval plectrum, how to make?
   To: "lute-cs.dartmouth.edu" 
   > On Jun 6, 2008, at 5:37 AM, Eugene C. Braig IV wrote:
   >
   > > My experiences with ironing goose quill, at least a split
   > quill,
   > > have not
   > > been good.
   >
   > Maybe you should try removing it from the goose first.
   > --
   But that removes so much of the flavor.

   Eugene --


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[LUTE] Re: [LUTE] Re: Double headed 12c/loaded/ Demi-filé

[EUGENE BRAIG IV]

   - Original Message -=3CBR=3EFrom=3A howard posner
   =26lt=3Bhoward= posner=40ca=2Err=2Ecom=26gt=3B=3CBR=3EDate=3A
   Thursday=2C June 5=2C 2008= 7=3A39 pm=3CBR=3ESubject=3A =5BLUTE=5D
   Re=3A Double headed 12c/loaded/=26= nbsp=3B Demi-fil=E9=3CBR=3ETo=3A
   Lute List =26lt=3Blute=40cs=2Edartmouth=
   =2Eedu=26gt=3B=3CBR=3E=3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B On Jun 5=2C
   2008= =2C at 2=3A44 PM=2C Eugene C=2E Braig IV wrote=3A=3CBR=3E=26gt=3B
   =3CBR=3E= =26gt=3B =26gt=3B I don=27t think you are mistaken=3B
   however=2C that st= ill would =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B not=26nbsp=3B
   =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B invol= ve a chemical change of the gut
   material itself=2E=3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =3CBR= =3E=26gt=3B Does
   dyeing=3F=26nbsp=3B =3CBR=3E=26nbsp=3B=3CBR=3ENot ordin= arily=2C not
   with most materials that would be called dyes=2E=3CBR=3E=26=
   nbsp=3B=3CBR=3EBest=2C=3CBR=3EEugene --


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[LUTE] Re: machete

[EUGENE BRAIG IV]

   - Original Message -=3CBR=3EFrom=3A Rob MacKillop
   =26lt=3Blutepl= ayer1=40googlemail=2Ecom=26gt=3B=3CBR=3EDate=3A
   Saturday=2C May 3=2C 200= 8 4=3A52 am=3CBR=3ESubject=3A =5BVIHUELA=5D
   machete=3CBR=3ETo=3A Vihuela=
   =26lt=3Bvihuela=40cs=2Edartmouth=2Eedu=26gt=3B=3CBR=3E=3CBR=3E=26gt=3B
   = Following the ukulele theme backwards=2C it seems to
   have=26nbsp=3Bdevel= oped from the Portuguese =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B
   Machete=2C which I believe was= wire-string=2E What do we=26nbsp=3Bknow
   of the machete=3F Strummed=3F =3C= BR=3E=26gt=3B Plucked=3F Fingers=3F
   Plectrum=3F I=27ve known about=26nbs= p=3Bthe machete for years as they
   have one in =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B Edinburgh= University Museum of musical
   instruments - and a cute little thing it i= s=2C although broken
   =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B and=26nbsp=3Bstringless- but have = never read any
   research or heard one=2E=3CBR=3E=26nbsp=3B=3CBR=3EThere i= s one in the
   Stearns Collection of Michigan with a soundbox carved into = the shape
   of a fish=2E=26nbsp=3B The headstock becomes the tail (thus th= e
   instrument=27s=26nbsp=3Bneck makes for what would be a grotesquely hyp=
   ertrophied caudal peduncle)=2C and there are even little carved bone
   tee= th set into the fish=27s mouth=2E=3CBR=3E=26nbsp=3B=3CBR=3EI
   don=27t kno= w much of the machete=2C but believe there were some
   gut-strung variants= =2C including that of Madeira=2E=26nbsp=3B There
   is a quote from=26nbsp=3B= a ca=2E 1860 English guidebook of Madeira
   given in the article to which = I just referred in reply to
   Bill=26nbsp=3B(odd approach to punctuation p=
   reserved)=3A=3CBR=3E=26nbsp=3B=3CBR=3E=22The machete is peculiar to the
   = island=3B it is a small guitar with four catgut strings=2E=26nbsp=3B
   The= instrument is used by the peasantry to accompany the voice and the
   danc= e=2E=26nbsp=3B The common music consists of a succession of
   simple chord= s=3B but in the hands of an accomplished player=2C the
   machete is capabl= e of much more pleasing harmony=3B and the stranger
   is sometimes agreeab= ly surprised to hear the fashionable music of our
   ballrooms given with c= onsiderable effect=2C on what appears a very
   insignificant instrument=2E=
   =22=3CBR=3E=3CBR=3E=26nbsp=3B=3CBR=3E=26gt=3B BTW=2C astonished at some
   = of the strumming these uke players can=26nbsp=3Bdo=2E There is one
   guy o= n youtube=3CBR=3E=26gt=3B
   http=3A//www=2Eyoutube=2Ecom/watch=3Fv=3DOLAwS=
   OELH9s=26amp=3Bfeature=3Drelated =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B demonstrating a
   =27fan= strum=27 which is a form of repicco - but goes like
   this=3A=26nbsp=3Bli= ttle finger down=2C ring =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B finger
   down=2C thumb down=2C t= humb up=2C which he can do at a phenomenal
   speed=2E I might get a DVD =3C= BR=3E=26gt=3B devoted to strumming
   the=26nbsp=3Buke=2C as there is so mu= ch there of use to baroque
   guitar players=2E =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B The=26nbsp= =3Brepertoire might be
   different - Sweet Georgia Brown instead of La Fol= ia - but
   the=26nbsp=3Bbillions =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B of=26nbsp=3Balfabeto pie= ces
   are not so far off=2E=3CBR=3E=26nbsp=3B=3CBR=3EIndeed=2E=26nbsp=3B T=
   he most famous strummer of ukes in cyberland may be Jake Shimabukuro=2C
   = of course=2E=26nbsp=3B He=27s all over Youtube=2E=26nbsp=3B Search
   him u= p too=2C especially the now ubiquitous arrangement of =22While
   my Guitar= Gently Weeps=2E=22=3CBR=3E=26nbsp=3B=3CBR=3EEugene --


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[LUTE] Re: Lauffensteiner

[EUGENE BRAIG IV]

- Original Message -
From: David Rastall <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Monday, December 17, 2007 11:22 pm
Subject: [LUTE] Lauffensteiner

> Dear Wisdom,
> 
> I've been looking for an edition of the works of Wolff Jacob  
> Lauffensteiner, but without success.  I know an edition exists out 
> 
> there somewhere, because I used to have a copy, but somehow 
> mislaid it.  Does anyone know where that edition exists, or how I can 
> find his music?  I'm not looking for a freebie (except of course if one 
> is available...).  ;-)

I have a copy of Zwei Praludien und funf Partien fur Laute by Lauffensteiner, 
heft 30 of the Musik Alter Meister series of Akademische Druck- u. 
Verlagsanstalt, Graz, Austria, 1973, ISBN3-201-00656-4.

Best,
Eugene



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[LUTE] Re: Vivaldi

[EUGENE BRAIG IV]

- Original Message -
From: Eric Liefeld <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Wednesday, November 14, 2007 5:56 pm
Subject: Re:  [LUTE] Re: Vivaldi

> Hi Eugene,
> 
> Much earlier than Presbler, et al, I'm very much taken by the six- 
> course 1652
> Matteo Sellas instrument in Paris (D.E.CI 7688).  The museum calls 
> it a
> "Mandoline", probably because of the sickle-shaped pegbox.  Is it  
> wrong to
> lust after such things?  :-)

If so, I'm all wrong!  Still much bigger than the typical mandolino, but the 
Sellas is also substantially smaller than the later Presblers, Radice, etc., of 
course.

Best,
Eugene



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[LUTE] Re: Vivaldi

[EUGENE BRAIG IV]

My university's spam filter seems to be a little overzealous at the moment.  I 
don't seem to be picking up all of this discussion.

In addition to only archlute and mandolin, I think the few-course, lute-like 
thing called "mandora" in some places at some times is worthy of consideration 
for Vivaldi's "leuto" designation, especially given the dedications to Wrtby in 
Bohemia (again, see Liefeld).

Another totally speculative possibility are the 5- to 7-course lute-sized 
things built to very deliberately mirror the aesthetics of 18th-c. 5- and 
6-course mandolini.  I've raised them here in the past and they have gotten 
some decent speculative chat; that should be archived and searchable.  I'm 
particularly fond of Martin's speculation, and it makes a nice parallel of 
"leuto/liuto" as a late-baroque-but-renaissance-like incarnation of "archlute 
light."  See:


Best,
Eugene



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[LUTE] Re: Vivaldi

[EUGENE BRAIG IV]

> > Though people debate this issue, liuto in 
> > Scarlatti Vivaldi land generally meant mandolin...

I think that Vivaldi actually designated "mandolino" in several instances 
argues to the contrary.  Again, O'Dette took that stance originally, but 
recanted.

Eugene 




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[LUTE] Re: Vivaldi

[EUGENE BRAIG IV]

- Original Message -
From: Roman Turovsky <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Tuesday, November 13, 2007 12:49 pm
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Vivaldi

> > heard over an orchestra (you can't play as hard)
> And that is the overriding consideration.

..And whatever Vivaldi had in mind when naming "leuto" is still open to debate. 
 It quite likely wasn't an Italianate archlute at all as the lute works were 
dedicated to a noble in Bohemia and, in one case, a visit from the Elector of 
Saxony.

Eugene



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[LUTE] Re: Vivaldi

[EUGENE BRAIG IV]

- Original Message -
From: David Tayler <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Tuesday, November 13, 2007 0:08 am
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Vivaldi

> Also works nice on 6 course mandolin, and archlute 
> in mandolin tuning. On mandolin you have not the 
> parallel octaves, and the modulating parts are 
> easier with the open e string in the middle.

As Eric Liefeld notes in his article for the LSA Quarterly (sitting in a hotel 
far from home, I don't have the citation on hand, but hopefully he'll happen by 
to comment), playing the Vivaldi lute works as scored on 5- or 6-course 
mandolino leaves a gap in the middle range.  This is the way O'Dette recorded 
them for Hyperion.  He has since turned to favor archlute for the works to 
designate "leuto."

> Orchestra is way bigger than I like for this 
> piece...

Of course, this is the rather well-known Il Giardino Armonico.  In spite of the 
single-strung archlute (or perhaps because of it...I know it's in spite of and 
not because of the plectra applied to mandolini) their recording of the Vivaldi 
lute and mandolin works is my favorite.  The recorded RV 93 as scored, one 
instrument per part: "leuto" (whatever that meant), two violins, and basso 
continuo.

Eugene



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[LUTE] Re: String Question

[EUGENE BRAIG IV]

Hopefully, he realizes a standard nylon set will not properly activate such a 
heavily built soundboard.  He won't have any appreciable tone at all; 
functioinally, it only will be a practice intrument.

That said, most non-Spanish 19th-c. guitars have similar pin bridges, 
originally were intended for gut, and function just fine under gut-like 
synthetics.  Creating a ball-end string is as easy as tying a double overhand 
knot (a pair of half-hitches) in unwound strings or a single in wound strings.  
Yes, the three trebles of the D'Addario set should be plain nylon monofilament, 
and three basses metal-wound nylon multifilament.

Many pre-assembled ball-end-nylon sets have "black nylon" trebles.  These are 
terrible, rubbery strings with terrible intonation very far above first 
position.  Be certain any set he pursues has clear-nylon (or nylgut...or 
gut...or anything BUT black nylon) trebles.

Best,
Eugene

- Original Message -
From: Craig Allen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Thursday, October 18, 2007 10:08 am
Subject: [LUTE] String Question

> Dear Collected Wisdom,
> 
> A fellow I know wants to start learning the lute. However he can't 
> afford a lute at this time. Instead he has a 12-string guitar that 
> he wants to do a non-invasive conversion to. That is he wants to 
> restring it with nylon strings instead of the steel ones that are 
> standard on such guitars. The problem is that steel strings have a 
> nut or ball on the end that is held in the bridge by a peg. He has 
> found that D'Addario has a ball ended nylon string 
> (http://www.classicax.com/daddario/folk.htm#anchor443559) but this 
> page is rather confusing as to whether he can get a full set or 
> even if they are completely nylon but, as seems to be implied, 
> metal wound over nylon. Has anyone had any experience with these 
> string in particular or any other strings that might suit this 
> beginner without his having to replace the bridge on his guitar to 
> allow for tied on strings?
> 
> Thank you for your time.
> 
> Regards,
> Craig




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[LUTE] Re: Amps or no amps

[EUGENE BRAIG IV]

- Original Message -
From: gary digman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Tuesday, October 9, 2007 5:18 am
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Amps or no amps

> So, c'mon youse guys (and gals). If you're going to play to large 
> audiences, have mercy on the poor lute players in the back and mic 
> the darn thing.

Aye!

Eugene



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[LUTE] Re: Amps or no amps

[EUGENE BRAIG IV]

- Original Message -
From: "G. Crona" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Sunday, October 7, 2007 12:26 pm
Subject: [LUTE] Amps or no amps

> The recent discussion of "silent" Hoppy (although I've never had 
> the "live" 
> pleasure, I've had the great one of hearing him in "loud" duets 
> with 
> PO'D. Sting was critisized for using amplification. I recognize, 
> we are 
> purists on this list, but is it anatema to use mild amplification 
> to get 
> the lute sound across at major venues? Rooley would prbbly have 
> satisfied 
> Bruno ;) 

Personally, I very much prefer the lute in an intimate venue where a lute can 
be clearly heard.  Bringing a lute to masses is also to be celebrated, but I 
can't see much use to it if the lute can't be heard.  I would only want 
amplification used (and then as minimal as possible) where it must be used to 
fill a too-large hall with a lute's voice.

Eugene



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[LUTE] Re: Lute concert

[EUGENE BRAIG IV]

- Original Message -
From: Stewart McCoy <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Tuesday, September 25, 2007 4:04 pm
Subject: [LUTE] Lute concert

> On the subject of Tony Rooley's performance, I would say that any 
> lute in a hall big enough to hold over 800 people, is going to be 
> difficult to hear, whoever it is playing.

I wholeheartedly agree.  I might even be so crass as to suggest a renaissance 
lute consider mild amplification in such a setting.  That said, I saw O'Dette 
and Hargus unamplified in a similar hall.  However, O'Dette was on a whopping 
chitarrone and easily audible.  The whole was magic.

Eugene



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[LUTE] Re: Harptone

[EUGENE BRAIG IV]

- Original Message -
From: Edward Martin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Monday, September 3, 2007 0:16 am
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Harptone

> I am in favor of the Kinham case.  Yes, they are expensive, but of 
> high 
> quality./  Harptone cases are not really  form fitted, so they are 
> somewhat 
> awkward to transport, but they are sturdy.  I am unaware if they 
> are made 
> anymore.

I believe Harptone was bought out by TKL a few years ago.  The first thing TKL 
did with their new acquisition was discontinue Harptone's fine Neapolitan 
mandolin case.  Ah well...

Eugene



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[LUTE] Re: Mason Williams - no attachments

[EUGENE BRAIG IV]

- Original Message -
From: Wayne Cripps <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Monday, July 30, 2007 5:51 pm
Subject: [LUTE] Mason Williams - no attachments

> > 
> > It seems that there is a block on attaching files, either that 
> or my
> > computer is having 'one of those days'.
> > 
> 
> There is indeed a block against attachments.  Too many people
> were attaching viruses to their email a while  back.
> 


..Or too many viruses were attaching themselves to people's e-mails.

Eugene



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[LUTE] Re: explain some things

[EUGENE BRAIG IV]

- Original Message -
From: hera caius <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Sunday, July 29, 2007 5:19 pm
Subject: [LUTE] explain some things

> I'm very sorry to say this but I think that sometimes people are 
> getting a little frustrated here. OK by me. Good luck! I think 
> music is something for the heart not for the mind.Especially lute 
> music!   

No need for frustration and no need to read topics that do not interest you.  I 
think music can and should serve both heart and mind.  Whatever facet suits the 
appreciator is fine with me...even if that which suits me is different than 
that which suits somebody else.

Best,
Eugene



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[LUTE] Re: More mandora/mandola

[EUGENE BRAIG IV]

- Original Message -
From: Howard Posner <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Wednesday, July 25, 2007 0:16 am
Subject: [LUTE] Re: More mandora/mandola

> 
> EUGENE BRAIG IV wrote:
> 
> > The effort to directly parallel fixed-bridge mandolins is obvious
> 
> Do you mean to say "bridge" rather than "fret"?  Are we talking 
> about 
> instruments with violin-type bridges?

Well, I did mean "bridge" and didn't say "fret."  We're discussing instruments 
with lute-like bridges, tied frets, and gut strings for which Vivaldi and 
Sammartini had written.  Some examples:
<http://www.lutesandguitars.co.uk/htm/cat09.htm>
<http://www.daniellarson.com/mandolins/mandolino/mandolino.htm>
<http://www.lucianofaria.com/mandolinos.htm>
<http://www.usd.edu/smm/PluckedStrings/Mandolins/StradMandolin/StradMandolin.html>

These predate the floating-bridge, fixed-fret, wire-strung Neapolitan type that 
most people associate with the word "mandolin."

Best,
Eugene



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[LUTE] Re: Nigel on YouTube

[EUGENE BRAIG IV]

- Original Message -
From: David Tayler <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Tuesday, July 17, 2007 1:46 am
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Nigel on YouTube

> I think it is interesting that when we actually hear someone 
> playing historically,  we wonder if it is.

Of course, no matter how scholarly the effort, there is always a certain degree 
of speculation involved in any effort at historic performance.  Frankly, there 
should always be a bit of wondering because nobody can know all the minutiae of 
exactly what historic performance practice was.  There's nothing wrong with 
that; it just is.

Best,
Eugene



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[LUTE] Re: richard III and the charango

[EUGENE BRAIG IV]

- Original Message -
From: David Tayler <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Monday, July 9, 2007 7:48 pm
Subject: [LUTE] Re: richard III and the charango
> 
> Many organologists classify the charango as a 
> lute; I think it would be difficult to trace the precise
> line of development. I also think that it is not 
> impossible to have multiple lines of 
> acculturation from both flat and round backed
> instruments.

"Lute" is sometimes even applied to any chordophone with strings fixed to 
resonant soundbox and stopped along a distinct neck extending from the 
soundbox, even violins (violin builders are still luthiers).  Lutes are 
sometimes separated as plucked (but early vihuela seems to buck that 
generalization) and sometimes subdivided into long-necked ancestry (saz, 
collascione, sometimes guitar--but what then of similar vihuelas/violas if of 
bowed lineage?--etc.) and short-necked ancestry (oud, lute, etc.).  Frankly, 
the concept of singular lines of ancestry often can't hold up across named 
instrument types.

Eugene



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[LUTE] Re: richard III and the charango

[EUGENE BRAIG IV]

- Original Message -
From: bill kilpatrick <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Monday, July 9, 2007 7:06 pm
Subject: [LUTE] Re: richard III and the charango

> late at night ... the sandman is insistent ... but the
> short answer to your question is:
> 
> .. not a lot - they're all (i maintain) in the
> vihuela family - jaranas, medianas, charangos, vihuela
> de golpe, tiple, timple etc., etc..

Is the modern guitar then of the vihuela family?  If not, why not impart that 
honor?  Frankly, I tend to believe such "families" are facade at best.  I don't 
believe in classifying musical instrument types by "family" because of the 
biotic connotations within which human-created works of art/craft will not be 
contained.  If there are "family" designations that hold, they are extremely 
narrow (e.g., the standard violin family built as varying sizes of essentially 
the very same thing with, for the most part, identical relative standard 
tunings) or factual descriptions of sounding mechanism and the grossest 
features of construction in spite of any perceived "ancestry."  In general, 
they all freely influence each other wherever they interact in a way biota 
cannot.

Eugene



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[LUTE] Re: Mics arrived

[EUGENE BRAIG IV]

- Original Message -
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Wednesday, July 4, 2007 10:42 am
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Mics arrived

>Yes, and on Hoppy's "Vieux Gaultier" CD, you can
> hear breathing, buzzes, "cracked" notes, and even a
> storm outside.  I think there's a recording by Diego
> Cantalupi where you can hear birds singing in the
> background.  (I don't even think the piece was by
> Respighi ;-))

Hoppy's Bach discs are laden with sparrow song too.  Being too quiet to be 
obvious, I think it's a nice ambience.

Eugene



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[LUTE] Re: jazz on Lute

[EUGENE BRAIG IV]

- Original Message -
From: Ed Durbrow <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Friday, June 29, 2007 6:17 pm
Subject: [LUTE] Re: jazz on Lute

> Did he ever play lute? I wouldn't put it past him. 

Fred Hand gave a recital here just a few years back (maybe 2000 or so).  Half 
was on renaissance lute and half modern guitar.

Eugene



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[LUTE] Re: Carbon strings

[EUGENE BRAIG IV]

- Original Message -
From: David Van Edwards <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Wednesday, June 20, 2007 3:19 am
Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: Carbon strings

> I wasn't trawling with a fishing line, I was using the net to 
> gather stuff from the underwater world!

Very nice!  Sounds like a day on the job for me.

Eugene



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[LUTE] Re: vihuela's black swan

[EUGENE BRAIG IV]

- Original Message -
From: gary digman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Wednesday, June 20, 2007 3:35 am
Subject: [LUTE] Re: vihuela's black swan

> 
> - Original Message - 
> From: "Eugene C. Braig IV" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: "bill kilpatrick" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>;
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Tuesday, June 19, 2007 10:19 AM
> Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: vihuela's black swan
> 
> 
> "... Investing oneself too wholly in belief is potentially limiting."
> 
> Or potentially liberating. Great liberation carries with it great 
> risk.
> gary

Funny, I felt the same way when I shed any faith in faith.  
i agree, great liberation does carry great risk, but it's worth it for those 
with a bit of moral fiber.

Best,
E



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[LUTE] Re: the bandore

[EUGENE BRAIG IV]

- Original Message -
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Saturday, June 2, 2007 3:40 pm
Subject: [LUTE] Re: the bandore

> You can hear replica instruments on some of the music recorded by the
> Baltimore Consort.

Not to mention some other broken consort recordings.  There's even a nice solo 
performance of "Bony sweet boy" on the yummy Musicians of Swanne Alley disc 
(1989).  The instrument was also a regular in the Julian Bream consort.

Eugene



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[LUTE] Re: Another beginner's question

[EUGENE BRAIG IV]

- Original Message -
From: David Rastall <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Wednesday, May 2, 2007 7:00 pm
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Another beginner's question

> On May 2, 2007, at 5:29 PM, <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
> > Museum instruments may have been cleaned and/or refinished to 
> make  
> > them
> > 'presentable'.  Some may have new sound boards, ones that might  
> > never have
> > been played on.
> 
> Absolutely, and in the case of an original soundboard the wood may 
> 
> have darkened enough (over the centuries...?) to obscure any 
> single  
> smudge.

Sorry, I don't own any original 17th-c. lutes, but my 19th-c. guitar carries a 
very definite dirty streak where the pinkie was dragged along the soundboard.

Eugene



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[LUTE] Re: Another beginner's question

[EUGENE BRAIG IV]

- Original Message -
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Wednesday, May 2, 2007 5:25 pm
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Another beginner's question

> What does every
> single beginner need to be reminded of?  "Don't plant
> your pinky on the front of the guitar."  I've said
> this _thousands_of_times_ in lessons I've given over
> the years.  I have never once had a complete beginner
> who didn't want to plant the pinky and I've found that
> almost all beginnners need to be reminded of this
> EVERY LESSON for months before they become comfortable
> playing without the support.  Even then, they are
> likely to put the ol' pinky (or even more fingers)
> back down again when they are nervous or sight-reading
> until its totally ingrained not to do it.
> 
> Beginners also need to be constantly reminded to
> extend their thumbs so that its not inside their
> hands, under the fingers.  Pinky on the top; thumb
> under the fingers.  Reminds me of something...

It's not my intent to to be argumentative, and I can't speak for anybody who is 
not me...and I might just be relatively freaky in the grand scheme of things, 
but I never planted my pinkie or attempted thumb-under strokes on the classical 
guitar.  Classical guitar was the first instrument on which I attempted any 
fingerstyle technique, but I didn't take it up until I was 20.  I suppose my 
age and experiences elsewhere may have contributed.  Proper modern guitar 
technique (assuming that it does not incorporate the dread Segovia wrist) has 
always seemed intuitive to me...or at least as intuitive as anything so 
anthropogenic as music making can be.  Again, my personal experiences shouldn't 
be considered any more than my personal experiences.

Best,
Eugene



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[LUTE] Re: Another beginner's question

[EUGENE BRAIG IV]

- Original Message -
From: Howard Posner <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Tuesday, May 1, 2007 3:32 pm
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Another beginner's question

> On Tuesday, May 1, 2007, at 12:26 America/Los_Angeles, EUGENE 
> BRAIG IV 
> wrote:
> 
> > Even if rather small, I'd wager the fingers will be at enough of 
> an 
> > angle to incorporate some flesh in the stroke.
> 
> You seem a bit defensive about your lack of size...

Only of my "angle."  ...And I suppose I should admit preference for mandolino 
over chitarrone.

Best,
Eugene



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[LUTE] Re: Another beginner's question

[EUGENE BRAIG IV]

- Original Message -
From: Howard Posner <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Tuesday, May 1, 2007 3:08 pm
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Another beginner's question

> >   The operative phrase in Joseph's statement was "Classical 
> guitarists 
> > do not - repeat do not - bend their wrists."
> 
> Ah... I should have known that "Playing perpendicular to the 
> strings is 
> a sure way to produce a thin, naily tone" was an inoperative 
> statement. 
>  Thanks.

Even if rather small, I'd wager the fingers will be at enough of an angle to 
incorporate some flesh in the stroke.  Still, I see your point; obviously, 
universal statements should always be avoided, always!

Eugene



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[LUTE] Re: Another beginner's question

[EUGENE BRAIG IV]

- Original Message -
From: EUGENE BRAIG IV <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Tuesday, May 1, 2007 2:45 pm
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Another beginner's question

> - Original Message -
> From: Howard Posner <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Date: Tuesday, May 1, 2007 1:54 pm
> Subject: [LUTE] Re: Another beginner's question
> 
> > On Tuesday, May 1, 2007, at 09:04 America/Los_Angeles, Joseph 
> > Mayes 
> > wrote:
> > 
> > >
> > > 2. "...bend your wrist too much like playing the classical 
> > guitar" I 
> > > have
> > > heard, and continue to hear this stated - it ain't so! 
> Classical 
> > > guitarists
> > > do not - repeat do not - bend their wrists. Playing 
> > perpendicular to 
> > > the
> > > strings is a sure way to produce a thin, naily tone. It also 
> > hurts. We 
> > > do
> > > not do it! Haven't for years and years.
> > 
> > Really?  These seem pretty perpendicular:
> > 
> > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o8d-5gCGlYg
> > 
> > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=po2uaa0IVes&mode=related&search=
> > 
> > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EPP0_va2krc
> 
> These approach perpendicular through holding the guitar at angle.  
> Note the line from wrist into phalanges is parallel or nearly so 
> in all these videos.  The operative phrase in Joseph's statement 
> was "Classical guitarists do not - repeat do not - bend their 
> wrists."  For the short-lived and almost entirely outmoded 
> approach, see:
> <" target="l">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francisco_T%C3%A1rrega>

Or, since I'm away from e-mail software and my server doesn't translate the 
accents, try <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francisco_Tarrega>.

Eugene



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[LUTE] Re: Another beginner's question

[EUGENE BRAIG IV]

- Original Message -
From: Howard Posner <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Tuesday, May 1, 2007 1:54 pm
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Another beginner's question

> On Tuesday, May 1, 2007, at 09:04 America/Los_Angeles, Joseph 
> Mayes 
> wrote:
> 
> >
> > 2. "...bend your wrist too much like playing the classical 
> guitar" I 
> > have
> > heard, and continue to hear this stated - it ain't so! Classical 
> > guitarists
> > do not - repeat do not - bend their wrists. Playing 
> perpendicular to 
> > the
> > strings is a sure way to produce a thin, naily tone. It also 
> hurts. We 
> > do
> > not do it! Haven't for years and years.
> 
> Really?  These seem pretty perpendicular:
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o8d-5gCGlYg
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=po2uaa0IVes&mode=related&search=
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EPP0_va2krc

These approach perpendicular through holding the guitar at angle.  Note the 
line from wrist into phalanges is parallel or nearly so in all these videos.  
The operative phrase in Joseph's statement was "Classical guitarists do not - 
repeat do not - bend their wrists."  For the short-lived and almost entirely 
outmoded approach, see:


Eugene



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[LUTE] Re: Another beginner's question

[EUGENE BRAIG IV]

- Original Message -
From: Joseph Mayes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Tuesday, May 1, 2007 12:04 pm
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Another beginner's question
 
> 2. "...bend your wrist too much like playing the classical guitar" I have
> heard, and continue to hear this stated - it ain't so! Classical 
> guitaristsdo not - repeat do not - bend their wrists. Playing  
> perpendicular to the strings is a sure way to produce a thin, naily tone. 
> It also hurts. We do not do it! Haven't for years and years.

Indeed.  That was a short, strange period championed by Tarrega and Segovia.  I 
think the last publicly visible hold out for that awkward effort (essentially 
an effort to balance tone by putting every finger at an identical attack angle) 
is Oscar Ghiglia.

Eugene



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[LUTE] Re: Stung Again

[EUGENE BRAIG IV]

- Original Message -
From: Roman Turovsky <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Sunday, April 1, 2007 10:46 am
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Stung Again

> Painful it may be to some. But Sting has real Presence, and we 
> should be 
> grateful he used it on Dowland. i.e SOMEONE ELSE'S MATERIAL. The 
> album is a 
> trubute from one composer to another. That's what I call love and 
> respect.RT

While the effort is not necessarily to my personal taste, I wholeheartedly 
agree with every aspect of this assessment.

Eugene



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[LUTE] Re: [Viols] "cello" - Italian

[EUGENE BRAIG IV]

- Original Message -
From: Lex Eisenhardt <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Saturday, March 17, 2007 4:41 pm
Subject: [LUTE] Re: [Viols] "cello" - Italian

> This is Millioni's way to say that we can play from alfabeto on 
> the chitarra
> Italiana by omitting all that is on the fifth string. So this 
> instrumentmust have had a guitar tuning, with an interval of a 
> fourth between the 4th
> and 3rd course, unlike the one in 'conserto vago' or other small 
> lute-shaped
> instruments (like in Kircher), that probably had the interval of a 
> fifth.

Don't you mean intervals of a third and fourth respectively?

Eugene



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[LUTE] Re: VERY OFF TOPIC! (political?)

[EUGENE BRAIG IV]

I saw a news segment on Egyptian oudist (is that a word?) Simon Shaheen 
collaborating with an Isreali violinist (I think it was Shlomo Mintz, but don't 
recall).  I wish there was more of that in the popular news media.  Kudos to 
your efforts, Doc.

Eugene

- Original Message -
From: Doc Rossi <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Saturday, January 27, 2007 7:51 am
Subject: [LUTE] Re: VERY OFF TOPIC! (political?)

> Thank you, Anthony, for your thoughtful and thought-provoking summary.
> 
> I believe musicians caught up in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict  
> also have their share of problems, like oudist Samir Joubran, for  
> example, who cannot perform in most of the Arab world because he 
> is  
> an Israeli citizen.  I have met two different Israeli singers 
> (both  
> women, and their names escape me at the moment) who have had long- 
> term working relationships with Palestinian musicians.  One is 
> here  
> in France, the other in Rome.
> 
> The organization I'm playing for now, J.A.DE, was founded to  
> demonstrate the many links among Mediterranean peoples in music,  
> poetry and dance. A lofty perhaps even naive proposal for some, 
> but  
> it is something we can do.
> 
> Doc Rossi



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[LUTE] Re: For ambitious lutenists - iTunes

[EUGENE BRAIG IV]

For the middle-aged residents of the US, I remember one episode of the Gong 
Show in which every contestant sang, you guessed it, "Feelings" in really bad 
karaoke style.  Every one of them was gonged except for one who rather 
arbitrarily was given a perfect score.

Eugene

- Original Message -
From: gary digman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Sunday, January 21, 2007 6:09 am
Subject: [LUTE] Re: For ambitious lutenists - iTunes

> Reminds me of the time I was listening to a live radio broadcast 
> of the
> great jazz violinist, Joe Venuti, playing at a club in San 
> Francisco. At one
> point he said, "You've been such a great audience, we're going to do
> something we never do: we're going to take a request. What would 
> you like to
> hear?" From the back of the room a woman called out, "Play 
> 'Feelings'."Venuti said, "'Feelings'?!!...'Feelings'?!! That's the 
> worst goddam tune
> ever written. You had your chance." And he played "All the Things 
> You Are".
> 
> Gary
> 
> - Original Message - 
> From: "bill kilpatrick" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: "Lutelist" 
> Cc: "EUGENE BRAIG IV" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Saturday, January 20, 2007 9:36 AM
> Subject: [LUTE] Re: For ambitious lutenists - iTunes
> 
> 
> >
> > --- EUGENE BRAIG IV <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> > > ... lushly lifeless
> > > interpretation of Pachelbel's Canon directly into
> > > their brains.  Beware ye who gig weddings!
> >
> > could be worse ...
> >
> > "FEE-LINGS ... NOTHING MORE THAN FEE-LINGS! ..."
> >
> > (whoa-a-whoa)
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ___
> > Inbox full of unwanted email? Get leading protection and 1GB 
> storage with
> All New Yahoo! Mail. http://uk.docs.yahoo.com/nowyoucan.html
> >
> >
> >
> > To get on or off this list see list information at
> > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
> >
> >
> >
> > -- 
> > No virus found in this incoming message.
> > Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> > Version: 7.5.432 / Virus Database: 268.17.3/642 - Release Date: 
> 1/20/200710:31 PM
> >
> >
> 
> 
> 

[LUTE] Re: For ambitious lutenists - iTunes

[EUGENE BRAIG IV]

- Original Message -
From: Roman Turovsky <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Saturday, January 20, 2007 8:54 am
Subject: [LUTE] For ambitious lutenists - iTunes
> This came up on the Delian listserv:
> 
> From: "nnamelet" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> 
> > I'm not sure my earlier memo to Joe Ford got to members' 
> > attention but recent information has emerged that the classical music 
> > category in Apple's  iTunes is reporting a nearly unbelievable 12% of 
> > all downloads. That might put it ahead of rock, oldies, new age, jazz, 
> > Christian music, Spanish, etc.It could be just behind  major popular 
> > genres like urban adult, adult contemporary, country,  and rhythmic
> > (i.e. hip hop), using the Arbitron categories for music types.

As promising as this seems, I'm afraid it really means there is a whole new 
digital generation of bleary eyed, zombified drones marching about, pumping 
some huge modern string orchestra's expansive, romantic, and lushly lifeless 
interpretation of Pachelbel's Canon directly into their brains.  Beware ye who 
gig weddings!

Eugene



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[LUTE] Re: looking for Albert de Rippe CD with Fantasies

[EUGENE BRAIG IV]

I looked around the Alice Musik site a bit.  If you enter their frames page 
from the home page < http://www.alice-musik.se/ > and click "Shop", you appear 
to be able to buy directly from the label.

Eugene

- Original Message -
From: Werner Bogula <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Saturday, January 6, 2007 8:03 am
Subject: [LUTE] Re: looking for Albert de Rippe  CD with Fantasies

> Thank you everybody!
> 
> I looked at the picture of the CD at alice-musik web site. That is 
> the  
> CD, I was looking for.
> 
> Now I only have to find a shop to buy it...
> 
> Great work
>  we
> 
> 
> Am 05.01.2007 um 23:51 schrieb [EMAIL PROTECTED]:
> 
> > Hi all!
> >
> > the CD you want is probably recorded by Peter Soderberg.
> > more info at http://www.alice-musik.se/022.html
> >
> > Cheers!
> >
> > Lex van Sante
> >
> >> Dear lute freaks,
> >
> >> some month ago I saw a nice CD with lute fantasias of Albert de
> > Rippe.
> >> When I went back to the record store, it was sold.
> >> I was looking across all the record stores on the net but could not
> >> find the CD, unfortunately I do not know the artist nor the label.
> >> Does anybody know about a CD, recently recorded with Albert de
> > Rippe
> >> Fantasias?
> >
> >> Thanks for your help
> >> we
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > To get on or off this list see list information at
> > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
> >
> >
> ... 
> 
> jogmap - map your jog | Ihre Laufstrecken im Internet unter  
> www.jogmap.de
> 
> 
> 

[LUTE] Re: Unmarried strung archlutes

[EUGENE BRAIG IV]

- Original Message -
From: Howard Posner <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Saturday, November 25, 2006 6:02 pm
Subject: [LUTE] Unmarried strung archlutes

> ...They were not classical guitarists dressed 
> up like lute players.


Hey, I resemble that remark! ...other than the fact that my lute-like things 
are double strung.

Eugene



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[LUTE] Re: Sting!

[EUGENE BRAIG IV]

- Original Message -
From: Narada <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Friday, November 24, 2006 10:05 am
Subject: RE: [LUTE] Re: Sting!

> Mmmm,
> 
> Without digging my Focus CD's out...Elspeth of Nottingham is a 
> track on
> which the lute appears...

My exact reference.



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[LUTE] Re: Sting!

[EUGENE BRAIG IV]

..And the state of knowing how to play isn't necessarily a simple yes or no.  
It's a continuum, and any musician worth anything continues learning as his/her 
career progresses.  So, should we only buy the one most technically perfect 
lute performance currently committed to CD as the only one that represents a 
real state of knowing how to play...or sell off all the CDs of any given 
lutenist when he/she generates a later one after learning to play the 
instrument better...or not buy any lute CDs at all knowing that there will 
always be a release pending in which a player knows how to play the instrument 
in a more technically perfect fashion than on current releases?  These things 
are much more a matter of personal taste.  Buy it or don't.

Eugene

- Original Message -
From: Roman Turovsky <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Friday, November 24, 2006 9:29 am
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Sting!

> Not everybody knew how to play before venturing forth with a CD. 
> Should we 
> start naming names?
> RT
> ps.
> Pat's background is in jazz.
> 
> - Original Message - 
> From: "Bruno Fournier" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: "Bernd Haegemann" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Cc: "Lutelist" ; "Roman Turovsky" 
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Friday, November 24, 2006 9:16 AM
> Subject: [LUTE] Re: Sting!
> 
> 
> > and Pat O'Brien I think,
> >
> > but all of these people waited till they knew how to play the
> > instrument before they put out CD's



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[LUTE] Re: Sting!

[EUGENE BRAIG IV]

- Original Message -
From: gary digman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Friday, November 24, 2006 4:51 am
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Sting!

> Wasn't the illustrious Paul O'Dette a rock guitarist before taking 
> up the lute?

..as well as McFarlane.

Eugene



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[LUTE] Re: Sting!

[EUGENE BRAIG IV]

- Original Message -
From: Bruno Fournier <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Thursday, November 23, 2006 3:54 pm
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Sting!
> So on top of that, Sting cannot even ENUNCIATE in his own 
> language.
> as for the awakening the sleeping interest we can all gain for, I am
> confident the lute community, which includes me, does not need Sting
> to awake the sleeping interest.I personally woke up in 1978, long
> before any pop artist even had heard of the lute. and frankly I
> now have nightmares when I think of Sting singing Dowland...

Man, I really don't understand this persistent vitriol.  If you don't like it, 
don't buy it.  I won't, but I'm still overjoyed Sting felt enough love for this 
music to record it.  I'm certain a Police reunion album (or even another 
_Dream_of_the_Blue_Turtles_!) would have been much more profitable for him.  
Personally, I'm not fond of the way Rooley did many things, so I'm a cautious 
buyer of his recorded output too.

Whether admitted or not, the lute is getting much more attention than it has in 
a while.  Frankly, Sting has greater capacity to bring the attention of many 
more individuals to the lute than does Yasunori Imamura, Federico Marincola, or 
Paul Beier, e.g.  What do I care?  The lute gets lots more attention and there 
is still plenty out there to satiate my personal tastes for lute playing.

The claim that any living lutenist discovered lute long before any "pop star" 
seems a little bold considering that the popular artists of ca. 1600 largely 
were playing lutes.  Of today's pop stars, even Jethro Tull and Focus were 
using lutes on their commercial releases by 1972 and 1973 respectively.  No, 
you didn't need Sting to discover the lute for you, but you still came to it 
through somebody else.  I'm sincerely glad you came to it, and I don't 
necessarily care if I like the artist who introduced you to the sound or not.  
The bigger the pool of potential lutenists, the more likely it is to produce 
players I consider to be of quality.  Whoever served as their introduction to 
the instrument isn't necessarily relevant.

Please, let's hear about something you actually like.

Best,
Eugene



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[LUTE] Re: Sting!

[EUGENE BRAIG IV]

Jheesh!  No, I personally am not too fond of Labyrinth and am not defending it 
(although I'm also not criticizing it), but isn't this continued vitriol over 
the doings of an admitted pop musician a bit much?  Regarding these words of 
"wisdom", frankly, these sound to be quite reasonable expressions of what a 
successful, reasonably intelligent pop musician might think of the world and 
the nature of his/her line of work.  Read it if you'd like; don't if this isn't 
your thing.  Personally, I wouldn't even have known these existed if you 
weren't so obsessed with seeking out all the reasons why we should all spend 
our time criticizing Sting...and I actually like Sting (other than Labyrinth), 
especially pre-Synchronicity Police.

You'd make a better impression celebrating the lute-related things you like 
than you do in obsessively digging dirt to fuel vitriolic sarcasm regarding the 
non-lute doings of a relative newcomer to lutes.  Please tell us something 
about something you enjoy soon, perhaps play a bit of lute, and lay this issue 
to rest.

Sincerely,
Eugene


- Original Message -
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Wednesday, November 22, 2006 7:19 pm
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Sting!

> In einer eMail vom 23.11.2006 00:43:50 Westeurop=E4ische 
> Normalzeit schreibt 
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]: 
> 
> > This is getting more and more ridiculoushe should be ashamed of
> > presenting this to the world
> > 
> > regards
> > 
> > Bruno
> > 
> 
> Dear Bruno.
> 
> Don't get frustrated, try starting your day with a word of wisdom 
> from the 
> zen master
> The "Sting quote of the day" at www.sting.com
> Try it sometime, it will give you a warm and happy glow the whole 
> day long.
> For instance.
> 
> "What surprises me is that people see me as arrogant. To a certain 
> extent, I 
> am, but any artist worth his salt has arrogance. It's a 
> prerequisite of being 
> stage-worthy. You have to have a certain air of 'watch me, because 
> I'm really 
> good'." STING
> 
> Not bad, but wait till you read this.
> 
> "I do like intellectualism. I do find it stimulating. I like 
> reading involved 
> books. I like complex music even though I'm a pop musician. I'm 
> not just 
> happy making simple music; I need some kind of acerbic, difficult 
> quality to it 
> somewhere." STING
> 
> But my absolute favorite must be
> 
> "I don't often look back at my work and ponder its significance. 
> You might 
> find that difficult to believe, but I don't. I'm too worried about 
> what I'm 
> going to do next." STING
> 
> Yes we all do find it very, very, very dificult to believe that 
> you don't 
> ponder on your own significance. 
> But we are still in awe of that 'watch me, because I'm really 
> good' mantra
> The only thing I can say is  thank you for bringing a ray of 
> sunshine into 
> our lives every single day.
> 
> OMM SHANTI
> Peace brothers
> Mark



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[LUTE] Re: ISO early guitar

[EUGENE BRAIG IV]

- Original Message -
From: Stuart Walsh <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Thursday, November 2, 2006 5:18 pm
Subject: [LUTE] Re: ISO early guitar
> Try this:
> 
> http://www.earlyromanticguitar.com/
> 
> Lots of information here.


Len's site is a visual treat and a nicely catalogued source of info.  However, 
you need to be wary of where he interjects with opinion or a quirky proposed 
vocabulary: "parlor" vs. "early romantic" guitar, e.g., neither of which were 
terms that anybody would have used at the time the instruments were built.  
Personally, I really dislike the use of "parlor" indescribing original 19th-c. 
guitars.

Eugene



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[LUTE] Re: ISO early guitar

[EUGENE BRAIG IV]

- Original Message -
From: Michal Gondko <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Thursday, November 2, 2006 6:37 pm
Subject: [LUTE] Re: ISO early guitar

> > Finally, can anyone recommend a site as reputable
> > as Wayne's Lute Page for buying one of these things?
> 
> http://sinierderidder.free.fr/gb/maingb.html

I believe Chris was seeking reproductions, not originals.

Eugene



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[LUTE] Re: Blackmore, was : A "normal" voyce ?

[EUGENE BRAIG IV]

- Original Message -
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Thursday, October 26, 2006 11:25 am
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Blackmore, was :  A "normal" voyce ?

> In einer eMail vom 26.10.2006 17:20:18 Westeurop=E4ische 
> Normalzeit schreibt 
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]: 
> 
> > I never knew Rockettes also played instruments.
> > RT
> > 
> 
> It seems you are in a sort of 19th century "reality tunnel".
> 
> Mark


I am finding increasing difficulty detecting the relevancy of this discussion 
to this list.  I like some recent music that doesn't involve lutes, and some of 
it is not the same as what others like...and I don't really care that other 
tastes differ.  Enjoy.

How'bout some discussion to do with lute-related topics?

Eugene



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[LUTE] Re: Blackmore, was : A "normal" voyce ?

[EUGENE BRAIG IV]

- Original Message -
From: Roman Turovsky <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Tuesday, October 24, 2006 8:17 pm
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Blackmore, was :  A "normal" voyce ?

> >> A colleague on a this week's film job, a propmaster, who 
> formerly 
> >> was the 
> >> leadguitarist with a VERY IMPORTANT R&R band (unnamed for now), 
> >> told me 
> >> today that RBlackmore plays nothing but lutes these days.
> >> RT
> > 
> > 
> > I don't think that's quite right.  Isn't Blackmore's Night still 
> active?> 
> > Eugene
> John, as a Brit, is not given to overstatement...
> So I'd be inclined to believe him.
> He also mentioned long multi-string contraptions.
> RT 


Blackmore also gave a substantial interview recently talking about his rather 
unorthodox mandolin tuning for Blackmore's Night repertoire.  I haven't spent 
much time digging around this site, but it probably has a fair amount on 
Blackmore's recent activity.
http://www.blackmoresnight.com/

Eugene



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[LUTE] Re: Blackmore, was : A "normal" voyce ?

[EUGENE BRAIG IV]

- Original Message -
From: Roman Turovsky <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Tuesday, October 24, 2006 7:54 pm
Subject: [LUTE] Blackmore, was :  A "normal" voyce ?

> A colleague on a this week's film job, a propmaster, who formerly 
> was the 
> leadguitarist with a VERY IMPORTANT R&R band (unnamed for now), 
> told me 
> today that RBlackmore plays nothing but lutes these days.
> RT


I don't think that's quite right.  Isn't Blackmore's Night still active?

Eugene



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[LUTE] Re: A "normal" voyce ?

[EUGENE BRAIG IV]

- Original Message -
From: Ed Durbrow <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Tuesday, October 24, 2006 3:14 am
Subject: [LUTE] Re: A "normal" voyce ?

> 
> On Oct 24, 2006, at 5:55 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> 
> > the URL was wrong it should have been
> >
> > http://www.myspace.com/suzannesear
> 
> Got it. Interesting. I like English folk. I would have changed the 
> 
> accompaniment with that style of singing to something more 
> "folky".  
> The interesting thing would be to see how people who don't listen 
> to  
> EM, but rather her target audience, would react.

I confess, I am in remote places at the moment and don't have hardware on hand 
to hear this latest bit, but from the comments, I assume such stuff has been 
done before, The New World Renaissance Band, e.g.  If it's done well (in tune, 
evident pulse, just plain sounds good, etc.), it probably will be well received 
by a target audience.  If not, perhaps less so.

Eugene



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