[LUTE] Re: Musical Crimes: Forgery, Deceit, and Socio-Hermeneutics
Dear Stewart, there is in fact one source stating that the ending -#269;ek does in fact mean from Czech country (http://www.oxfordjctgenealogy.com/oxfordnamesexplained.htm). I do not believe they are right.I am not at all an expert, but I think that it is just the diminutive suffix -ek which is also quite common in Poland. There are many names ending with -#269;ek, one will remember Alexander Dub#269;ek. About 1 0/00 of Czechs are called Sou#269;ek=knot, this name is among the top 100. Germans would probably transcribe this as Sautschek or Sautschek. Czech people would pronounce the -ch more or less as we do here, with the unpleasant -ch as in Ach or Nacht. Best wishes Gernot To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Musical Crimes: Forgery, Deceit, and Socio-Hermeneutics
Dear Stewart, no offense was intended, and I'm sorry if my words caused offense, nevertheless. All I wanted was to make clear that -tschek / -tscheck offers no allusions nor connotations in German to Czech. English speakers will pronounce Czech the same as check (just as there will not be much of a difference between Bach and a buck in terms of phonetics). In German, however, the ch-sound in words like Tschechen (people), Tschechien (country), tschechisch (being Czech) is not pronounced ck. German ch after vowels e,i,ö,ü, is pronounced something between [y] like in yes and [x] like in loch. That much for German. As for the Czech themselves, Ceska is the word. Russian also has ? as well as ???. Either [sk] or [x], but def. not [k]. IOW, you will have to be an English speaker of German to connect -tscheck with Tscheche. Yet in German or Czech there is no way to connect -tscheck / -tschek with words for Czech. Curious how the Russian script will come through, Mathias Stewart McCoy [EMAIL PROTECTED] schrieb: Dear Mathias, I am reliably informed that a stock term of abuse in Bavaria for the North Germans is Saupreußen. It is not unreasonable to suppose that their abuse levelled at Prussians extends to people from Czechoslovakia with the word Sautscheck. We have learned that there are two spellings of the name, one ending -eck, and the other -ek. Either spelling would give the pronunciation of the word Czech as pronounced by a Czech person. This seems a plausible etymology to me, however distasteful it may be. I am sorry you think my friend's suggested etymology is pure non-sense. What he actually wrote in his email to me was: ... the second part of the pseudonym might be a transliteration of Czech ... The German for Czech is Tscheche, which is not very far off the English sound, or indeed the spelling Tscheck. That seems reasonable enough to me. If you have an alternative etymology for the word Sautscheck, I would be interested to know what it is. Best wishes, Stewart. -Original Message- From: Mathias Rösel [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] He suggests that the -tscheck part of Sautscheck might be derived from the German word for Czech. He was looking at the word from a purely etymological point of view. Please excuse my rude wording, but that is pure non-sense (in the very sense of the word) because there are no bridges from -tscheck to Tscheche (Czech) in German, neither phonetically nor etymologically, since -ck- is a mute while the 2nd -ch- in Tscheche is a fricative (there is no corresponding sound in English, I'd describe it as something between -ch- in loch and -y- in yes). The two phonemes sound entirely different. Besides, the modifying use of the prefix sau- is fairly confined to the estates of Bavaria, btw not always pejorative (saugut, saugeil). Most other parts of German speaking countries use Arsch- or Scheisz- instead (arschkalt, Scheiszwetter, both pretty rude). -- Mathias To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Musical Crimes: Forgery, Deceit, and Socio-Hermeneutics
Mathias Rösel [EMAIL PROTECTED] schrieb: Curious how the Russian script will come through, Didn't come through at all, so here is a link: http://www.multitran.ru/c/m.exe?l1=1l2=2s=czech Mathias Stewart McCoy [EMAIL PROTECTED] schrieb: Dear Mathias, I am reliably informed that a stock term of abuse in Bavaria for the North Germans is Saupreußen. It is not unreasonable to suppose that their abuse levelled at Prussians extends to people from Czechoslovakia with the word Sautscheck. We have learned that there are two spellings of the name, one ending -eck, and the other -ek. Either spelling would give the pronunciation of the word Czech as pronounced by a Czech person. This seems a plausible etymology to me, however distasteful it may be. I am sorry you think my friend's suggested etymology is pure non-sense. What he actually wrote in his email to me was: ... the second part of the pseudonym might be a transliteration of Czech ... The German for Czech is Tscheche, which is not very far off the English sound, or indeed the spelling Tscheck. That seems reasonable enough to me. If you have an alternative etymology for the word Sautscheck, I would be interested to know what it is. Best wishes, Stewart. -Original Message- From: Mathias Rösel [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] He suggests that the -tscheck part of Sautscheck might be derived from the German word for Czech. He was looking at the word from a purely etymological point of view. Please excuse my rude wording, but that is pure non-sense (in the very sense of the word) because there are no bridges from -tscheck to Tscheche (Czech) in German, neither phonetically nor etymologically, since -ck- is a mute while the 2nd -ch- in Tscheche is a fricative (there is no corresponding sound in English, I'd describe it as something between -ch- in loch and -y- in yes). The two phonemes sound entirely different. Besides, the modifying use of the prefix sau- is fairly confined to the estates of Bavaria, btw not always pejorative (saugut, saugeil). Most other parts of German speaking countries use Arsch- or Scheisz- instead (arschkalt, Scheiszwetter, both pretty rude). -- Mathias To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Musical Crimes: Forgery, Deceit, and Socio-Hermeneutics
There were the wax tablets, but it seems likely that there were multiple systems for compositions. Sketches on paper show, obviously, that paper was used for sketches. These systems could have been used in combination Surely the keyboard was used by many composers Dowland most likely composed for a consort setting, with little or no divisions added. Dowland's self proclaimed reliance on the hexachord seems to be hold up under analysis Various charts and tables existed for transnotation. The good composers could easily hold four or even five parts in their heads, whether they then chose to sketch the material we may never know. The ornaments for almost all lute music can be found in the various tutors, although a complete picture requires the supposition of a missing english tutor or tutors whose contents can be formally derived from extant parts. The application of the ornaments invariably yeilds clues as to the author of the divisions, owing to the way in which the simple rules of voice leading are observed or unobserved. dt At 03:03 AM 6/8/2008, you wrote: Dear Roman, The paper is indeed interesting, although I cannot be sure who wrote it. In the paper, you are referred to as Roman Turovsky-Savchuk. Is this really your full name? If so, is your choice of the name Sautscheck for your own compositions, derived from the last part of your name? A few years ago, I told a friend about your compositions for lute, and how you used the pseudonym Sautscheck. He was much amused. He is a retired lecturer in German, and so is familiar with the German language. He said that Sautscheck has certain pejorative connotations, but I cannot remember the details. Is there a joke with the name Sautscheck which we are missing? I think the author of the paper would have been interested to know that Elias Mertel listed the names of the composers whose work was included in his anthology, but he deliberately failed to mention who actually wrote which piece. He argued in his introduction, that he wanted each piece to be judged on its own merits. Music from the 16th century is an interesting area as far as attributions are concerned. It is often difficult to distinguish between composer, arranger, intabulator, and publisher. Did Dowland compose My Lord Willoughby's Welcome Home, was the piece by Byrd, or did the piece exist before either of them put their gloss on it? On the question of arrangements, I would like to know more about how lute composers composed. I suspect that people like Dowland would have composed pieces in four or five parts in score, before arranging them as lute solos, with divisions and ornaments added last. I don't think they would have started with a lute on their lap and an empty tablature stave in front of them, but I could be wrong. I have a vague memory of hearing that Palestrina had a lute handy when composing. Best wishes, Stewart McCoy. -Original Message- From: Roman Turovsky [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 08 June 2008 04:25 To: BAROQUE-LUTE Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: [delian] Musical Crimes: Forgery, Deceit, and Socio-Hermeneutics An interesting paper from Cambridge- http://www.serenestudios.co.uk/articles/musical_crimes RT To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Musical Crimes: Forgery, Deceit, and Socio-Hermeneutics
Stewart, I expect Roman will answer properly, but Sautscheck is the surname of his grand mother. I saw a tomb with this name on it in Prague, in the cemetery of important persons, apparently it's a common name. In Italian all this ( wondering about the hidden meanings of it etc) is called dietrologia , no idea how to translate it into proper English. Look in the archives, he told the story in past mails to the list. Donatella P.S. I did not read the paper you are talking about, the message did not get to me. http://web.tiscali.it/awebd - Original Message - From: Stewart McCoy [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Lute Net lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Sunday, June 08, 2008 12:03 PM Subject: [LUTE] Musical Crimes: Forgery, Deceit, and Socio-Hermeneutics Dear Roman, The paper is indeed interesting, although I cannot be sure who wrote it. In the paper, you are referred to as Roman Turovsky-Savchuk. Is this really your full name? If so, is your choice of the name Sautscheck for your own compositions, derived from the last part of your name? A few years ago, I told a friend about your compositions for lute, and how you used the pseudonym Sautscheck. He was much amused. He is a retired lecturer in German, and so is familiar with the German language. He said that Sautscheck has certain pejorative connotations, but I cannot remember the details. Is there a joke with the name Sautscheck which we are missing? I think the author of the paper would have been interested to know that Elias Mertel listed the names of the composers whose work was included in his anthology, but he deliberately failed to mention who actually wrote which piece. He argued in his introduction, that he wanted each piece to be judged on its own merits. Music from the 16th century is an interesting area as far as attributions are concerned. It is often difficult to distinguish between composer, arranger, intabulator, and publisher. Did Dowland compose My Lord Willoughby's Welcome Home, was the piece by Byrd, or did the piece exist before either of them put their gloss on it? On the question of arrangements, I would like to know more about how lute composers composed. I suspect that people like Dowland would have composed pieces in four or five parts in score, before arranging them as lute solos, with divisions and ornaments added last. I don't think they would have started with a lute on their lap and an empty tablature stave in front of them, but I could be wrong. I have a vague memory of hearing that Palestrina had a lute handy when composing. Best wishes, Stewart McCoy. -Original Message- From: Roman Turovsky [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 08 June 2008 04:25 To: BAROQUE-LUTE Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: [delian] Musical Crimes: Forgery, Deceit, and Socio-Hermeneutics An interesting paper from Cambridge- http://www.serenestudios.co.uk/articles/musical_crimes RT To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Musical Crimes: Forgery, Deceit, and Socio-Hermeneutics
From: Stewart McCoy [EMAIL PROTECTED] Dear Roman, The paper is indeed interesting, although I cannot be sure who wrote it. One Dan Hill, a violinist. In the paper, you are referred to as Roman Turovsky-Savchuk. Is this really your full name? If so, is your choice of the name Sautscheck for your own compositions, derived from the last part of your name? Yes. I couldn't have invented such a mouthful... A few years ago, I told a friend about your compositions for lute, and how you used the pseudonym Sautscheck. He was much amused. He is a retired lecturer in German, and so is familiar with the German language. He said that Sautscheck has certain pejorative connotations, but I I am unaware of that. There are a dozen S's in the German notebook. cannot remember the details. Is there a joke with the name Sautscheck which we are missing? Not really. Back in the old country the connotation, is, well, rather proletarian. I think the author of the paper would have been interested to know that Elias Mertel listed the names of the composers whose work was included in his anthology, but he deliberately failed to mention who actually wrote which piece. He argued in his introduction, that he wanted each piece to be judged on its own merits. Worth mentioning to Dan Hill. RT -Original Message- From: Roman Turovsky [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 08 June 2008 04:25 To: BAROQUE-LUTE Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: [delian] Musical Crimes: Forgery, Deceit, and Socio-Hermeneutics An interesting paper from Cambridge- http://www.serenestudios.co.uk/articles/musical_crimes RT To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Musical Crimes: Forgery, Deceit, and Socio-Hermeneutics
From: Stewart McCoy [EMAIL PROTECTED] Dear Roman, The paper is indeed interesting, although I cannot be sure who wrote it. One Dan Hill, a violinist. In the paper, you are referred to as Roman Turovsky-Savchuk. Is this really your full name? If so, is your choice of the name Sautscheck for your own compositions, derived from the last part of your name? Yes. I couldn't have invented such a mouthful... A few years ago, I told a friend about your compositions for lute, and how you used the pseudonym Sautscheck. He was much amused. He is a retired lecturer in German, and so is familiar with the German language. He said that Sautscheck has certain pejorative connotations, but I I am unaware of that. There are a dozen S's in the German notebook. Meant PHONEbook. RT To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Musical Crimes: Forgery, Deceit, and Socio-Hermeneutics
Roman Turovsky [EMAIL PROTECTED] schrieb: A few years ago, I told a friend about your compositions for lute, and how you used the pseudonym Sautscheck. He was much amused. He is a retired lecturer in German, and so is familiar with the German language. He said that Sautscheck has certain pejorative connotations, but I I am unaware of that. There are a dozen S's in the German notebook. No such connotations known in German. Perhaps he heard a Denglish combination of G. Sau (sow) + E. check. Yet to German ears, there's no connotation to the name Sautschek at all. All that you can hear is that it probably stems from Bohemia or Poland (-ek), and that is by no means pejorative. -- Best, Mathias To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Musical Crimes: Forgery, Deceit, and Socio-Hermeneutics
- Original Message - From: Mathias Rösel [EMAIL PROTECTED] Roman Turovsky [EMAIL PROTECTED] schrieb: A few years ago, I told a friend about your compositions for lute, and how you used the pseudonym Sautscheck. He was much amused. He is a retired lecturer in German, and so is familiar with the German language. He said that Sautscheck has certain pejorative connotations, but I I am unaware of that. There are a dozen S's in the German notebook. No such connotations known in German. Perhaps he heard a Denglish combination of G. Sau (sow) + E. check. Yet to German ears, there's no connotation to the name Sautschek at all. All that you can hear is that it probably stems from Bohemia or Poland (-ek), and that is by no means pejorative. Schade, it would have been a good point for Sautscheck's detractors Donatella -- Best, Mathias To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Musical Crimes: Forgery, Deceit, and Socio-Hermeneutics
He suggests that the -tscheck part of Sautscheck might be derived from the German word for Czech. He was looking at the word from a purely etymological point of view. Please excuse my rude wording, but that is pure non-sense (in the very sense of the word) because there are no bridges from -tscheck to Tscheche (Czech) in German, neither phonetically nor etymologically, since -ck- is a mute while the 2nd -ch- in Tscheche is a fricative (there is no corresponding sound in English, I'd describe it as something between -ch- in loch and -y- in yes). The two phonemes sound entirely different. Besides, the modifying use of the prefix sau- is fairly confined to the estates of Bavaria, btw not always pejorative (saugut, saugeil). Most other parts of German speaking countries use Arsch- or Scheisz- instead (arschkalt, Scheiszwetter, both pretty rude). -- Mathias To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Musical Crimes: Forgery, Deceit, and Socio-Hermeneutics
Let me assure that the mere Sautscheck word evokes no pejorative undertones at all to me although the Sau- prefix is pretty common here and means just what Stewart says. It is not very rude, though. Can be used talking to your mother-in-law without any risk. Sautscheck merely sounds vaguely slavonic which is more or less synonymic here with probably ok but take care of your car. What a silly thing all those prejudices are, aren't they? g I have only been wondering why the more common spelling Sautschek has not one hit in the phone directory and Sautscheck has seven just as Roman says! On 08.06.2008, at 23:38, Stewart McCoy wrote: I have contacted my German lecturer friend by email, who has kindly replied at once to explain what he had meant. He writes, Sau is the German for sow (as in female pig), but is used frequently as a (fairly rude) prefix to indicate a pejorative, e.g. Sauwetter (what we have been getting up to the last couple of days, saukalt (extremely cold) etc etc. He suggests that the -tscheck part of Sautscheck might be derived from the German word for Czech. He was looking at the word from a purely etymological point of view. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Musical Crimes: Forgery, Deceit, and Socio-Hermeneutics
I have contacted my German lecturer friend by email, who has kindly replied at once to explain what he had meant. He writes, Sau is the German for sow (as in female pig), but is used frequently as a (fairly rude) prefix to indicate a pejorative, e.g. Sauwetter (what we have been getting up to the last couple of days, saukalt (extremely cold) etc etc. He suggests that the -tscheck part of Sautscheck might be derived from the German word for Czech. He was looking at the word from a purely etymological point of view. All this, of course, is irrelevant, since, whatever the etymology of the name may have been originally, there is no hidden meaning in your use of it. Sautscheck is simply one of your family names, and, as such, a perfectly reasonable pseudonym to use. Best wishes, Stewart Indeed, especially considering that late 18th century lutenist with the same surname active in Dutch Limburg (no surviving music). RT -Original Message- From: Roman Turovsky [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 08 June 2008 12:30 To: Stewart McCoy; Lute Net Subject: Re: [LUTE] Musical Crimes: Forgery, Deceit, and Socio-Hermeneutics From: Stewart McCoy [EMAIL PROTECTED] Dear Roman, The paper is indeed interesting, although I cannot be sure who wrote it. One Dan Hill, a violinist. In the paper, you are referred to as Roman Turovsky-Savchuk. Is this really your full name? If so, is your choice of the name Sautscheck for your own compositions, derived from the last part of your name? Yes. I couldn't have invented such a mouthful... A few years ago, I told a friend about your compositions for lute, and how you used the pseudonym Sautscheck. He was much amused. He is a retired lecturer in German, and so is familiar with the German language. He said that Sautscheck has certain pejorative connotations, but I I am unaware of that. There are a dozen S's in the German notebook. cannot remember the details. Is there a joke with the name Sautscheck which we are missing? Not really. Back in the old country the connotation, is, well, rather proletarian. I think the author of the paper would have been interested to know that Elias Mertel listed the names of the composers whose work was included in his anthology, but he deliberately failed to mention who actually wrote which piece. He argued in his introduction, that he wanted each piece to be judged on its own merits. Worth mentioning to Dan Hill. RT To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html __ D O T E A S Y - Join the web hosting revolution! http://www.doteasy.com
[LUTE] Re: Musical Crimes: Forgery, Deceit, and Socio-Hermeneutics
From: Mathias Rösel [EMAIL PROTECTED] Besides, the modifying use of the prefix sau- is fairly confined to the estates of Bavaria, btw not always pejorative (saugut, saugeil). Most other parts of German speaking countries use Arsch- or Scheisz- instead (arschkalt, Scheiszwetter, both pretty rude). -- Mathias Interesting. I wonder if similarly functioning Italian modifier SCROFA, is a calque of that, via South Tirol. RT To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Musical Crimes: Forgery, Deceit, and Socio-Hermeneutics
Stewart, You might be happy to know that your neologism has been recorded: http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=sautscheckerei RT - Original Message - From: Stewart McCoy [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Lute Net lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Sunday, June 08, 2008 5:38 PM Subject: [LUTE] Musical Crimes: Forgery, Deceit, and Socio-Hermeneutics Dear Roman, Saying that I could not be sure who wrote the paper, was meant as a joke, since the paper is about dodgy attributions. It is clearly by Daniel Hill. I have contacted my German lecturer friend by email, who has kindly replied at once to explain what he had meant. He writes, Sau is the German for sow (as in female pig), but is used frequently as a (fairly rude) prefix to indicate a pejorative, e.g. Sauwetter (what we have been getting up to the last couple of days, saukalt (extremely cold) etc etc. He suggests that the -tscheck part of Sautscheck might be derived from the German word for Czech. He was looking at the word from a purely etymological point of view. All this, of course, is irrelevant, since, whatever the etymology of the name may have been originally, there is no hidden meaning in your use of it. Sautscheck is simply one of your family names, and, as such, a perfectly reasonable pseudonym to use. Best wishes, Stewart -Original Message- From: Roman Turovsky [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 08 June 2008 12:30 To: Stewart McCoy; Lute Net Subject: Re: [LUTE] Musical Crimes: Forgery, Deceit, and Socio-Hermeneutics From: Stewart McCoy [EMAIL PROTECTED] Dear Roman, The paper is indeed interesting, although I cannot be sure who wrote it. One Dan Hill, a violinist. In the paper, you are referred to as Roman Turovsky-Savchuk. Is this really your full name? If so, is your choice of the name Sautscheck for your own compositions, derived from the last part of your name? Yes. I couldn't have invented such a mouthful... A few years ago, I told a friend about your compositions for lute, and how you used the pseudonym Sautscheck. He was much amused. He is a retired lecturer in German, and so is familiar with the German language. He said that Sautscheck has certain pejorative connotations, but I I am unaware of that. There are a dozen S's in the German notebook. cannot remember the details. Is there a joke with the name Sautscheck which we are missing? Not really. Back in the old country the connotation, is, well, rather proletarian. I think the author of the paper would have been interested to know that Elias Mertel listed the names of the composers whose work was included in his anthology, but he deliberately failed to mention who actually wrote which piece. He argued in his introduction, that he wanted each piece to be judged on its own merits. Worth mentioning to Dan Hill. RT To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
