Re: Montagna's lutes
Also the LSA will be publishing an interview with Crawford in our Quarterly, as soon as Ed Durbrow finishes it. Ed, did you discuss plectrum technique in the interview? We did a bit. I can tell you he was using a nylon G string from a guitar throughout the Medieval seminar in Vancouver 2004. I don't think Crawford would mind me giving away his trade secret as he was happy to share that information. :-) He has experimented with every conceivable plectrum material and has found ostrich quills stripped of the feathery part, and used on the THIN end, to be the best for him. That kind of quill ends up to be about the size and consistency of a G string which is easier to acquire and doesn't wear out as quickly. He has no problem to combine the middle finger (and ring finger too?) with the plectrum just as, say, Jimmy Page or another pick guitarist would when playing quasi-acoustic style on an electric. Personally, I found the string-pick to have a couple of great advantages. A flat pick has an angle to it. If you want a certain tone, you have to orient your hand at a precise angle to the string. With an ROUND quill or string, you have much more flexibility in your hand position yet can maintain a consistency of tone. The other advantage, of course, is that when you lose your pick you can probably find a bit of string somewhere. BTW, thanks to the help of Bruno et Valérie, Caroline Chamberlain, Guy Smith and Jason Yoshida, the interview has been completely transcribed and now is in the hands of James A Stimson who has the Herculean task of editing it for the Quarterly. cheers, -- Ed Durbrow Saitama, Japan http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/ To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Montagna's lutes
-Original Message- From: Sean Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Mar 30, 2005 5:46 PM To: Lutelist lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: Re: Montagna's lutes Marion, Often a lute duo would consist of a tenorista playing the tenor perhaps with a plectrum (or fingers) or playing the tenor and another noncantus line w/out plectrum (or in combination? see below). Most of the vocal nonliturgical music (but by no means all) from this period is for 3 voices and this works fairly often. ++Yes, I am familiar with this music. A very good example would be the duet of the chanson, Je ne fay in the first Spinacino book. There, the 2nd lute part is a nearly exact intabulation of the lower voices and the top line rattles around in variations on the cantus that would fit nicely w/ the plectrum. ++Generally it would work well with the cantus or some variant. A more exact setting is in the first Petrucci Odhecaton (A). Yet another setting for organ sets the lower 2 voices in organ tab and the cantus (w/ diminuations) in mensural notation, again, offering a variety of interpretations. ++I have looked for a copy of this work and so far I have not been able to find one. I have plenty of CDs of it so the music must be available somewhere. It predates the Cantus B. The words can be found in H.H.'s Odh A or H.M.Brown's A Florentine Chansonniere and the latter translates the humorous text. ++Interesting. Thanks for the information. There are more many examples in various manuscripts that fit the lute duo scenario. Whether they are *specifically* for lutes is open to debate but Crawford and the late Mr. Schroeder make a strong argument to the positive. ++I suppose there are endless variations of plucked string duets, or trios for that matter. Case in point is the CD Three, Four and Twenty Lutes with Jakob Lundberg, et al. and Emily Van Evera among other fine singers - proof positive that there is nothing so beautiful as a bunch of lutes accompanying singer(s). By the way, I received a note from another of Crawford Young's duet partners who says another lute technique is to pluck w/ the plectrum and still use other fingers to get another voice in. ++Does anyone have a video of that? all the best, Sean Best to you, Sean, Marion On Mar 30, 2005, at 8:29 AM, Dr. Marion Ceruti wrote: Hi Ed, I was lucky enough to find a book of this type of music on eBay. It is rare and out of print. It is the Canti B Numero Cinquanta Vol. II by Ottaviano Petrucci Edited by Helen Hewitt. The pieces are arranged in 3 or 4 parts each with a single note at once. No chords are written for any single part taken separately. If you wanted to, you could play each single line with the plectrum but with only two people playing one could use a plectrum but the other one would need to use fingers or miss some of the parts. Are you sure that Crawford Young used a plectrum? He could have chosen that but how did he get that sound quality? Do you know what kind of a plectrum he used? Where and how is he striking the strings to get that quality? I have tried to play the lute using a plectrum and but so far, I cannot duplicate that sound quality. Do you suppose the plectrum techniques for lute differed in those days from those we use today? Then again I don't have a lute in A or in E. Best, Marion -Original Message- From: Edward Martin [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Mar 29, 2005 7:08 PM To: Dr. Marion Ceruti [EMAIL PROTECTED], Sean Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED], Lutelist lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: Re: Montagna's lutes Marion, I do believe Crawford Yound used a plectrum on the upper parts. ed At 06:19 PM 3/29/2005 -0800, Dr. Marion Ceruti wrote: Dear Sean, Thank you for posting these pictures. The same picture is on the cover of Karl-Ernst Schroder and Crawford Young's CD, Amours amours amours released in 2002 by Harmonia Mundi HMC905254. In fact two A lutes were used in this recording as well as a lute in E. If the music on the CD is any indication of what the concert depicted in the picture was supposed have on the program, I doubt that a plectrum was used. Best regards, Marion -Original Message- From: Sean Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Mar 29, 2005 4:00 PM To: Lutelist lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: Montagna's lutes Having lived in the 6-course world for a while now I'm very interested in the left lute in this painting by Montagna: http://www.xs4all.nl/~amarin/Page1-Pages/Image198.html http://www.xs4all.nl/~amarin/Page1-Pages/Image199.html It appears M. tried to be very realistic in the proportions, colors and detail and I think there may be enough information in it to actually build a copy. Granted we don't know the string length or the back shape but some of this could be educatedly guessed at. Has anyone had a lute built in this shape (or built one) and if so what are your conclusions? Might it make a good F or A lute
Re: Montagna's lutes
Sean: About the lutes depicted in http://www.xs4all.nl/~amarin/Page1-Pages/Image198.html I know for a fact that Ed Greenhood has been making a lute of almost this exact same body design. It occurs also in a painting by Bartolomeo Veneto (on cover of Diana Poulton's Collected Works of Dowland edition) which was the basis for Ed's mold for the body and design of the lute's front. It has an extraordinary sound, very punchy in the melody lines, but also substantial in the mid tones and bass production.Ed's lute uses a longer neck proportionally, with 10 frets on the neck. Kenneth Be -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Montagna's lutes
Am 29 Mar 2005 um 22:53 hat Sean Smith geschrieben: Maybe the higher math of just where to place those frets (and how many) never seemed to impress them. Number of strings and fingers are always right but frets... dang! Interesting though that the right lute has a slanted first fret. Stephan Maybe it's a left-brain, right-brain thing. s On Mar 29, 2005, at 6:43 PM, James A Stimson wrote: And another thing: How come none of these artists get the fret proportions right, even though they seem to get everything else right? By the way, the most accurate rendering of fret spacing I've ever seen is in a print by M.C. Escher, not exactly a contemporary of the lutenists, but very mathematical in his approach. Cheers, Jim To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Montagna's lutes
Stephan, you are reading too much into it. The lute stage-right has frets fanning out, but I'm afraid it wouldn't be temperamentally justified. I wouldn't trust Montagna's lute design too much, as he was too fine a designer, and knew very well that beauty is in deviation from the ideal. RT __ Roman M. Turovsky http://polyhymnion.org/swv Maybe the higher math of just where to place those frets (and how many) never seemed to impress them. Number of strings and fingers are always right but frets... dang! Interesting though that the right lute has a slanted first fret. Stephan Maybe it's a left-brain, right-brain thing. s On Mar 29, 2005, at 6:43 PM, James A Stimson wrote: And another thing: How come none of these artists get the fret proportions right, even though they seem to get everything else right? By the way, the most accurate rendering of fret spacing I've ever seen is in a print by M.C. Escher, not exactly a contemporary of the lutenists, but very mathematical in his approach. Cheers, Jim To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Montagna's lutes
Stephan wrote: Interesting though that the right lute has a slanted first fret. Maybe the lutenist is playing meantones. Craig ___ $0 Web Hosting with up to 200MB web space, 1000 MB Transfer 10 Personalized POP and Web E-mail Accounts, and much more. Signup at www.doteasy.com To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Montagna's lutes
Am 30 Mar 2005 um 8:24 hat Roman Turovsky geschrieben: Stephan, you are reading too much into it. The lute stage-right has frets fanning out, but I'm afraid it wouldn't be temperamentally justified. I wouldn't trust Montagna's lute design too much, as he was too fine a designer, and knew very well that beauty is in deviation from the ideal. RT Maybe. However, the design looks well-proportioned to my eyes (although a bit unusual). It seems to be constructed classically with three circle segments, so I would not accuse him of to much fiction. Regards, Stephan __ Roman M. Turovsky http://polyhymnion.org/swv Maybe the higher math of just where to place those frets (and how many) never seemed to impress them. Number of strings and fingers are always right but frets... dang! Interesting though that the right lute has a slanted first fret. Stephan Maybe it's a left-brain, right-brain thing. s On Mar 29, 2005, at 6:43 PM, James A Stimson wrote: And another thing: How come none of these artists get the fret proportions right, even though they seem to get everything else right? By the way, the most accurate rendering of fret spacing I've ever seen is in a print by M.C. Escher, not exactly a contemporary of the lutenists, but very mathematical in his approach. Cheers, Jim To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Montagna's lutes
Mantegna's use of perspective is always a bit shaky and often a bit overdone for the sake of theater. One of his paintings shows a dead Christ lying with feet towards the viewer. The perspective on the bier and most of the figure is correct, but the feet are way too small to avoid having them dominate the painting. So you can't really take the proportions of a lute seen at an angle in one of his paintings as being correct. Tim Original Message From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: Re: Montagna's lutes Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 15:16:54 +0200 Am 30 Mar 2005 um 8:24 hat Roman Turovsky geschrieben: Stephan, you are reading too much into it. The lute stage-right has frets fanning out, but I'm afraid it wouldn't be temperamentally justified. I wouldn't trust Montagna's lute design too much, as he was too fine a designer, and knew very well that beauty is in deviation from the ideal. RT Maybe. However, the design looks well-proportioned to my eyes (although a bit unusual). It seems to be constructed classically with three circle segments, so I would not accuse him of to much fiction. Regards, Stephan __ Roman M. Turovsky http://polyhymnion.org/swv Maybe the higher math of just where to place those frets (and how many) never seemed to impress them. Number of strings and fingers are always right but frets... dang! Interesting though that the right lute has a slanted first fret. Stephan Maybe it's a left-brain, right-brain thing. s On Mar 29, 2005, at 6:43 PM, James A Stimson wrote: And another thing: How come none of these artists get the fret proportions right, even though they seem to get everything else right? By the way, the most accurate rendering of fret spacing I've ever seen is in a print by M.C. Escher, not exactly a contemporary of the lutenists, but very mathematical in his approach. Cheers, Jim To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Montagna's lutes
-Original Message- From: James A Stimson [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Mar 29, 2005 6:43 PM To: Sean Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: Lutelist lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: Re: Montagna's lutes And another thing: How come none of these artists get the fret proportions right, even though they seem to get everything else right? ++If the artist did not know about music or did not play the lute, he probably was not aware of the importance of fret spacings. By the way, the most accurate rendering of fret spacing I've ever seen is in a print by M.C. Escher, not exactly a contemporary of the lutenists, but very mathematical in his approach. ++A very thoughtful artist indeed. Do you have a URL for the Escher? Cheers, Jim To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Montagna's lutes
Tim, you mixed up Montagna and Mantegna, 2 entirely different artists. A general FYI (and since you are not an alcoholic Finnish mezzosoprano publisher of tacky guitar music with a pseudo-intellectual history of bonzai lute and 2 cats: I am not bein ogre-ish.) Standard architectural perspective does NOT apply to a single human figure, it has to be flattened out, lest look like a caricature. This is one of the oldest (as old as the hills) rules of good draftsmanship. __ Roman M. Turovsky http://polyhymnion.org/swv From: timothy motz [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 11:01:36 -0500 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED], lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: Re: Montagna's lutes Mantegna's use of perspective is always a bit shaky and often a bit overdone for the sake of theater. One of his paintings shows a dead Christ lying with feet towards the viewer. The perspective on the bier and most of the figure is correct, but the feet are way too small to avoid having them dominate the painting. So you can't really take the proportions of a lute seen at an angle in one of his paintings as being correct. Tim Original Message From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: Re: Montagna's lutes Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 15:16:54 +0200 Am 30 Mar 2005 um 8:24 hat Roman Turovsky geschrieben: Stephan, you are reading too much into it. The lute stage-right has frets fanning out, but I'm afraid it wouldn't be temperamentally justified. I wouldn't trust Montagna's lute design too much, as he was too fine a designer, and knew very well that beauty is in deviation from the ideal. RT Maybe. However, the design looks well-proportioned to my eyes (although a bit unusual). It seems to be constructed classically with three circle segments, so I would not accuse him of to much fiction. Regards, Stephan __ Roman M. Turovsky http://polyhymnion.org/swv Maybe the higher math of just where to place those frets (and how many) never seemed to impress them. Number of strings and fingers are always right but frets... dang! Interesting though that the right lute has a slanted first fret. Stephan Maybe it's a left-brain, right-brain thing. s On Mar 29, 2005, at 6:43 PM, James A Stimson wrote: And another thing: How come none of these artists get the fret proportions right, even though they seem to get everything else right? By the way, the most accurate rendering of fret spacing I've ever seen is in a print by M.C. Escher, not exactly a contemporary of the lutenists, but very mathematical in his approach. Cheers, Jim To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Montagna's lutes
Hi Ed, I was lucky enough to find a book of this type of music on eBay. It is rare and out of print. It is the Canti B Numero Cinquanta Vol. II by Ottaviano Petrucci Edited by Helen Hewitt. The pieces are arranged in 3 or 4 parts each with a single note at once. No chords are written for any single part taken separately. If you wanted to, you could play each single line with the plectrum but with only two people playing one could use a plectrum but the other one would need to use fingers or miss some of the parts. Are you sure that Crawford Young used a plectrum? He could have chosen that but how did he get that sound quality? Do you know what kind of a plectrum he used? Where and how is he striking the strings to get that quality? I have tried to play the lute using a plectrum and but so far, I cannot duplicate that sound quality. Do you suppose the plectrum techniques for lute differed in those days from those we use today? Then again I don't have a lute in A or in E. Best, Marion -Original Message- From: Edward Martin [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Mar 29, 2005 7:08 PM To: Dr. Marion Ceruti [EMAIL PROTECTED], Sean Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED], Lutelist lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: Re: Montagna's lutes Marion, I do believe Crawford Yound used a plectrum on the upper parts. ed At 06:19 PM 3/29/2005 -0800, Dr. Marion Ceruti wrote: Dear Sean, Thank you for posting these pictures. The same picture is on the cover of Karl-Ernst Schroder and Crawford Young's CD, Amours amours amours released in 2002 by Harmonia Mundi HMC905254. In fact two A lutes were used in this recording as well as a lute in E. If the music on the CD is any indication of what the concert depicted in the picture was supposed have on the program, I doubt that a plectrum was used. Best regards, Marion -Original Message- From: Sean Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Mar 29, 2005 4:00 PM To: Lutelist lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: Montagna's lutes Having lived in the 6-course world for a while now I'm very interested in the left lute in this painting by Montagna: http://www.xs4all.nl/~amarin/Page1-Pages/Image198.html http://www.xs4all.nl/~amarin/Page1-Pages/Image199.html It appears M. tried to be very realistic in the proportions, colors and detail and I think there may be enough information in it to actually build a copy. Granted we don't know the string length or the back shape but some of this could be educatedly guessed at. Has anyone had a lute built in this shape (or built one) and if so what are your conclusions? Might it make a good F or A lute? (I'm set for G) Are there any surving lutes, complete or not, that might suggest a precedent for this triangular, wide-belly shape? By the by, some have rumored to have seen a plectrum in this painting but in the detail, I honestly don't see it. Granted this is a ficticious concert (angels, etc), and while the weight lately has been to give most lute playing in this era a pick of some kind (or to one of the players), I don't see the plectrum support in this instance. On the other hand, so to speak, I see support for playing 15th century music in the same polyphonic way as the next. Fascinating right hand technique on the blond plucker, too. And my thanks to Alfonso for posting this page of lute iconography. Here's the rest of it: http://www.xs4all.nl/~amarin/Page1.html all the best, Sean Smith To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html Edward Martin 2817 East 2nd Street Duluth, Minnesota 55812 e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] voice: (218) 728-1202
Re: Montagna's lutes
Sean, If Crawford used a pectrum and you know him, could you ask him what kind and where he is striking the strings, as well as the angle of the plane of the plectrum with respect to the strings? There is a particular technque to this kind of playing witha plectrum and I would like to know what it is. Thank you, Marion -Original Message- From: Sean Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Mar 29, 2005 8:32 PM To: Edward Martin [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: Lutelist lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: Re: Montagna's lutes Did anyone see one of their concerts performing this duets? Or maybe we could ask Crawford? I have other CDs where CY is using a plectrum. Looking at the picture again, I would think the right side player is playing the trebles (if this were that kind of song set) but I don't know why. Maybe because his lute has the wider spacing (good for plectrum, right?) Or maybe he looks more confident giving the tuning pitch to his tenorista. Or maybe they're both supporting the fiddler? Interesting that on the CD cover they look so perfect as a duo but the painting really is a trio. And yes, it's a great CD. I've hunted down a lot of those tunes and they really are that much fun to play. Albeit slower ;^) s On Mar 29, 2005, at 7:08 PM, Edward Martin wrote: Marion, I do believe Crawford Yound used a plectrum on the upper parts. ed At 06:19 PM 3/29/2005 -0800, Dr. Marion Ceruti wrote: Dear Sean, Thank you for posting these pictures. The same picture is on the cover of Karl-Ernst Schroder and Crawford Young's CD, Amours amours amours released in 2002 by Harmonia Mundi HMC905254. In fact two A lutes were used in this recording as well as a lute in E. If the music on the CD is any indication of what the concert depicted in the picture was supposed have on the program, I doubt that a plectrum was used. Best regards, Marion -Original Message- From: Sean Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Mar 29, 2005 4:00 PM To: Lutelist lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: Montagna's lutes Having lived in the 6-course world for a while now I'm very interested in the left lute in this painting by Montagna: http://www.xs4all.nl/~amarin/Page1-Pages/Image198.html http://www.xs4all.nl/~amarin/Page1-Pages/Image199.html It appears M. tried to be very realistic in the proportions, colors and detail and I think there may be enough information in it to actually build a copy. Granted we don't know the string length or the back shape but some of this could be educatedly guessed at. Has anyone had a lute built in this shape (or built one) and if so what are your conclusions? Might it make a good F or A lute? (I'm set for G) Are there any surving lutes, complete or not, that might suggest a precedent for this triangular, wide-belly shape? By the by, some have rumored to have seen a plectrum in this painting but in the detail, I honestly don't see it. Granted this is a ficticious concert (angels, etc), and while the weight lately has been to give most lute playing in this era a pick of some kind (or to one of the players), I don't see the plectrum support in this instance. On the other hand, so to speak, I see support for playing 15th century music in the same polyphonic way as the next. Fascinating right hand technique on the blond plucker, too. And my thanks to Alfonso for posting this page of lute iconography. Here's the rest of it: http://www.xs4all.nl/~amarin/Page1.html all the best, Sean Smith To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html Edward Martin 2817 East 2nd Street Duluth, Minnesota 55812 e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] voice: (218) 728-1202
Re: Montagna's lutes
Or maybe the fret is loose, he doesn't havet time to tie a new one and he plans on using just two or three courses. A quick and dirty fix. Marion -Original Message- From: Craig Allen [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Mar 30, 2005 4:59 AM To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: Re: Montagna's lutes Stephan wrote: Interesting though that the right lute has a slanted first fret. Maybe the lutenist is playing meantones. Craig ___ $0 Web Hosting with up to 200MB web space, 1000 MB Transfer 10 Personalized POP and Web E-mail Accounts, and much more. Signup at www.doteasy.com To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Montagna's lutes
Marion, Often a lute duo would consist of a tenorista playing the tenor perhaps with a plectrum (or fingers) or playing the tenor and another noncantus line w/out plectrum (or in combination? see below). Most of the vocal nonliturgical music (but by no means all) from this period is for 3 voices and this works fairly often. A very good example would be the duet of the chanson, Je ne fay in the first Spinacino book. There, the 2nd lute part is a nearly exact intabulation of the lower voices and the top line rattles around in variations on the cantus that would fit nicely w/ the plectrum. A more exact setting is in the first Petrucci Odhecaton (A). Yet another setting for organ sets the lower 2 voices in organ tab and the cantus (w/ diminuations) in mensural notation, again, offering a variety of interpretations. The words can be found in H.H.'s Odh A or H.M.Brown's A Florentine Chansonniere and the latter translates the humorous text. There are more many examples in various manuscripts that fit the lute duo scenario. Whether they are *specifically* for lutes is open to debate but Crawford and the late Mr. Schroeder make a strong argument to the positive. By the way, I received a note from another of Crawford Young's duet partners who says another lute technique is to pluck w/ the plectrum and still use other fingers to get another voice in. all the best, Sean On Mar 30, 2005, at 8:29 AM, Dr. Marion Ceruti wrote: Hi Ed, I was lucky enough to find a book of this type of music on eBay. It is rare and out of print. It is the Canti B Numero Cinquanta Vol. II by Ottaviano Petrucci Edited by Helen Hewitt. The pieces are arranged in 3 or 4 parts each with a single note at once. No chords are written for any single part taken separately. If you wanted to, you could play each single line with the plectrum but with only two people playing one could use a plectrum but the other one would need to use fingers or miss some of the parts. Are you sure that Crawford Young used a plectrum? He could have chosen that but how did he get that sound quality? Do you know what kind of a plectrum he used? Where and how is he striking the strings to get that quality? I have tried to play the lute using a plectrum and but so far, I cannot duplicate that sound quality. Do you suppose the plectrum techniques for lute differed in those days from those we use today? Then again I don't have a lute in A or in E. Best, Marion -Original Message- From: Edward Martin [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Mar 29, 2005 7:08 PM To: Dr. Marion Ceruti [EMAIL PROTECTED], Sean Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED], Lutelist lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: Re: Montagna's lutes Marion, I do believe Crawford Yound used a plectrum on the upper parts. ed At 06:19 PM 3/29/2005 -0800, Dr. Marion Ceruti wrote: Dear Sean, Thank you for posting these pictures. The same picture is on the cover of Karl-Ernst Schroder and Crawford Young's CD, Amours amours amours released in 2002 by Harmonia Mundi HMC905254. In fact two A lutes were used in this recording as well as a lute in E. If the music on the CD is any indication of what the concert depicted in the picture was supposed have on the program, I doubt that a plectrum was used. Best regards, Marion -Original Message- From: Sean Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Mar 29, 2005 4:00 PM To: Lutelist lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: Montagna's lutes Having lived in the 6-course world for a while now I'm very interested in the left lute in this painting by Montagna: http://www.xs4all.nl/~amarin/Page1-Pages/Image198.html http://www.xs4all.nl/~amarin/Page1-Pages/Image199.html It appears M. tried to be very realistic in the proportions, colors and detail and I think there may be enough information in it to actually build a copy. Granted we don't know the string length or the back shape but some of this could be educatedly guessed at. Has anyone had a lute built in this shape (or built one) and if so what are your conclusions? Might it make a good F or A lute? (I'm set for G) Are there any surving lutes, complete or not, that might suggest a precedent for this triangular, wide-belly shape? By the by, some have rumored to have seen a plectrum in this painting but in the detail, I honestly don't see it. Granted this is a ficticious concert (angels, etc), and while the weight lately has been to give most lute playing in this era a pick of some kind (or to one of the players), I don't see the plectrum support in this instance. On the other hand, so to speak, I see support for playing 15th century music in the same polyphonic way as the next. Fascinating right hand technique on the blond plucker, too. And my thanks to Alfonso for posting this page of lute iconography. Here's the rest of it: http://www.xs4all.nl/~amarin/Page1.html all the best, Sean Smith To get on or off this list see
Re: Montagna's lutes
Marion, Often a lute duo would consist of a tenorista playing the tenor perhaps with a plectrum (or fingers) or playing the tenor and another noncantus line w/out plectrum (or in combination? see below). Most of the vocal nonliturgical music (but by no means all) from this period is for 3 voices and this works fairly often. A very good example would be the duet of the chanson, Je ne fay in the first Spinacino book. There, the 2nd lute part is a nearly exact intabulation of the lower voices and the top line rattles around in variations on the cantus that would fit nicely w/ the plectrum. A more exact setting is in the first Petrucci Odhecaton (A). Yet another setting for organ sets the lower 2 voices in organ tab and the cantus (w/ diminuations) in mensural notation, again, offering a variety of interpretations. The words can be found in H.H.'s Odh A or H.M.Brown's A Florentine Chansonniere and the latter translates the humorous text. There are more many examples in various manuscripts that fit the lute duo scenario. Whether they are *specifically* for lutes is open to debate but Crawford and the late Mr. Schroeder make a strong argument to the positive. By the way, I received a note from another of Crawford Young's duet partners who says another lute technique is to pluck w/ the plectrum and still use other fingers to get another voice in. all the best, Sean On Mar 30, 2005, at 8:29 AM, Dr. Marion Ceruti wrote: Hi Ed, I was lucky enough to find a book of this type of music on eBay. It is rare and out of print. It is the Canti B Numero Cinquanta Vol. II by Ottaviano Petrucci Edited by Helen Hewitt. The pieces are arranged in 3 or 4 parts each with a single note at once. No chords are written for any single part taken separately. If you wanted to, you could play each single line with the plectrum but with only two people playing one could use a plectrum but the other one would need to use fingers or miss some of the parts. Are you sure that Crawford Young used a plectrum? He could have chosen that but how did he get that sound quality? Do you know what kind of a plectrum he used? Where and how is he striking the strings to get that quality? I have tried to play the lute using a plectrum and but so far, I cannot duplicate that sound quality. Do you suppose the plectrum techniques for lute differed in those days from those we use today? Then again I don't have a lute in A or in E. Best, Marion -Original Message- From: Edward Martin [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Mar 29, 2005 7:08 PM To: Dr. Marion Ceruti [EMAIL PROTECTED], Sean Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED], Lutelist lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: Re: Montagna's lutes Marion, I do believe Crawford Yound used a plectrum on the upper parts. ed At 06:19 PM 3/29/2005 -0800, Dr. Marion Ceruti wrote: Dear Sean, Thank you for posting these pictures. The same picture is on the cover of Karl-Ernst Schroder and Crawford Young's CD, Amours amours amours released in 2002 by Harmonia Mundi HMC905254. In fact two A lutes were used in this recording as well as a lute in E. If the music on the CD is any indication of what the concert depicted in the picture was supposed have on the program, I doubt that a plectrum was used. Best regards, Marion -Original Message- From: Sean Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Mar 29, 2005 4:00 PM To: Lutelist lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: Montagna's lutes Having lived in the 6-course world for a while now I'm very interested in the left lute in this painting by Montagna: http://www.xs4all.nl/~amarin/Page1-Pages/Image198.html http://www.xs4all.nl/~amarin/Page1-Pages/Image199.html It appears M. tried to be very realistic in the proportions, colors and detail and I think there may be enough information in it to actually build a copy. Granted we don't know the string length or the back shape but some of this could be educatedly guessed at. Has anyone had a lute built in this shape (or built one) and if so what are your conclusions? Might it make a good F or A lute? (I'm set for G) Are there any surving lutes, complete or not, that might suggest a precedent for this triangular, wide-belly shape? By the by, some have rumored to have seen a plectrum in this painting but in the detail, I honestly don't see it. Granted this is a ficticious concert (angels, etc), and while the weight lately has been to give most lute playing in this era a pick of some kind (or to one of the players), I don't see the plectrum support in this instance. On the other hand, so to speak, I see support for playing 15th century music in the same polyphonic way as the next. Fascinating right hand technique on the blond plucker, too. And my thanks to Alfonso for posting this page of lute iconography. Here's the rest of it: http://www.xs4all.nl/~amarin/Page1.html all the best, Sean Smith To get on or off this list see list
Antwort: Re: Montagna's lutes
Dear Ed, Crawford Young teaches medieval lute at the schola cantorum basiliensis. As far as I know he is playing medieval lute mainly with plektrum and renaissance lute with his fingers. Best wishes Thomas Edward Martin [EMAIL PROTECTED] am 31.03.2005 01:06:18 An:Dr. Marion Ceruti [EMAIL PROTECTED], Edward Martin [EMAIL PROTECTED], Sean Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED], Lutelist lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Kopie: Thema: Re: Montagna's lutes Dear Marion et al, I do not know Crawford Young, but I am aware that he does indeed use plectrum quite a bit. I do not know if it is on each piece, and I have no specifics. But, I do know he gets a sweet sound, not so brittle in his technique. I do not know if he uses actual quills, feathers, or modern plectra. Ed At 08:29 AM 3/30/2005 -0800, Dr. Marion Ceruti wrote: Hi Ed, I was lucky enough to find a book of this type of music on eBay. It is rare and out of print. It is the Canti B Numero Cinquanta Vol. II by Ottaviano Petrucci Edited by Helen Hewitt. The pieces are arranged in 3 or 4 parts each with a single note at once. No chords are written for any single part taken separately. If you wanted to, you could play each single line with the plectrum but with only two people playing one could use a plectrum but the other one would need to use fingers or miss some of the parts. Are you sure that Crawford Young used a plectrum? He could have chosen that but how did he get that sound quality? Do you know what kind of a plectrum he used? Where and how is he striking the strings to get that quality? I have tried to play the lute using a plectrum and but so far, I cannot duplicate that sound quality. Do you suppose the plectrum techniques for lute differed in those days from those we use today? Then again I don't have a lute in A or in E. Best, Marion -Original Message- From: Edward Martin [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Mar 29, 2005 7:08 PM To: Dr. Marion Ceruti [EMAIL PROTECTED], Sean Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED], Lutelist lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: Re: Montagna's lutes Marion, I do believe Crawford Yound used a plectrum on the upper parts. ed At 06:19 PM 3/29/2005 -0800, Dr. Marion Ceruti wrote: Dear Sean, Thank you for posting these pictures. The same picture is on the cover of Karl-Ernst Schroder and Crawford Young's CD, Amours amours amours released in 2002 by Harmonia Mundi HMC905254. In fact two A lutes were used in this recording as well as a lute in E. If the music on the CD is any indication of what the concert depicted in the picture was supposed have on the program, I doubt that a plectrum was used. Best regards, Marion -Original Message- From: Sean Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Mar 29, 2005 4:00 PM To: Lutelist lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: Montagna's lutes Having lived in the 6-course world for a while now I'm very interested in the left lute in this painting by Montagna: http://www.xs4all.nl/~amarin/Page1-Pages/Image198.html http://www.xs4all.nl/~amarin/Page1-Pages/Image199.html It appears M. tried to be very realistic in the proportions, colors and detail and I think there may be enough information in it to actually build a copy. Granted we don't know the string length or the back shape but some of this could be educatedly guessed at. Has anyone had a lute built in this shape (or built one) and if so what are your conclusions? Might it make a good F or A lute? (I'm set for G) Are there any surving lutes, complete or not, that might suggest a precedent for this triangular, wide-belly shape? By the by, some have rumored to have seen a plectrum in this painting but in the detail, I honestly don't see it. Granted this is a ficticious concert (angels, etc), and while the weight lately has been to give most lute playing in this era a pick of some kind (or to one of the players), I don't see the plectrum support in this instance. On the other hand, so to speak, I see support for playing 15th century music in the same polyphonic way as the next. Fascinating right hand technique on the blond plucker, too. And my thanks to Alfonso for posting this page of lute iconography. Here's the rest of it: http://www.xs4all.nl/~amarin/Page1.html all the best, Sean Smith To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html Edward Martin 2817 East 2nd Street Duluth, Minnesota 55812 e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] voice: (218) 728-1202 Edward Martin 2817 East 2nd Street Duluth, Minnesota 55812 e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] voice: (218) 728-1202 CONFIDENTIALITY : This e-mail and any attachments are confidential and may be privileged. If you are not a named recipient, please notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the contents to another person, use it for any purpose or store or copy the information in any medium.
Re: Montagna's lutes
Dear Marion et al, I do not know Crawford Young, but I am aware that he does indeed use plectrum quite a bit. I do not know if it is on each piece, and I have no specifics. But, I do know he gets a sweet sound, not so brittle in his technique. I do not know if he uses actual quills, feathers, or modern plectra. Ed At 08:29 AM 3/30/2005 -0800, Dr. Marion Ceruti wrote: Hi Ed, I was lucky enough to find a book of this type of music on eBay. It is rare and out of print. It is the Canti B Numero Cinquanta Vol. II by Ottaviano Petrucci Edited by Helen Hewitt. The pieces are arranged in 3 or 4 parts each with a single note at once. No chords are written for any single part taken separately. If you wanted to, you could play each single line with the plectrum but with only two people playing one could use a plectrum but the other one would need to use fingers or miss some of the parts. Are you sure that Crawford Young used a plectrum? He could have chosen that but how did he get that sound quality? Do you know what kind of a plectrum he used? Where and how is he striking the strings to get that quality? I have tried to play the lute using a plectrum and but so far, I cannot duplicate that sound quality. Do you suppose the plectrum techniques for lute differed in those days from those we use today? Then again I don't have a lute in A or in E. Best, Marion -Original Message- From: Edward Martin [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Mar 29, 2005 7:08 PM To: Dr. Marion Ceruti [EMAIL PROTECTED], Sean Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED], Lutelist lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: Re: Montagna's lutes Marion, I do believe Crawford Yound used a plectrum on the upper parts. ed At 06:19 PM 3/29/2005 -0800, Dr. Marion Ceruti wrote: Dear Sean, Thank you for posting these pictures. The same picture is on the cover of Karl-Ernst Schroder and Crawford Young's CD, Amours amours amours released in 2002 by Harmonia Mundi HMC905254. In fact two A lutes were used in this recording as well as a lute in E. If the music on the CD is any indication of what the concert depicted in the picture was supposed have on the program, I doubt that a plectrum was used. Best regards, Marion -Original Message- From: Sean Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Mar 29, 2005 4:00 PM To: Lutelist lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: Montagna's lutes Having lived in the 6-course world for a while now I'm very interested in the left lute in this painting by Montagna: http://www.xs4all.nl/~amarin/Page1-Pages/Image198.html http://www.xs4all.nl/~amarin/Page1-Pages/Image199.html It appears M. tried to be very realistic in the proportions, colors and detail and I think there may be enough information in it to actually build a copy. Granted we don't know the string length or the back shape but some of this could be educatedly guessed at. Has anyone had a lute built in this shape (or built one) and if so what are your conclusions? Might it make a good F or A lute? (I'm set for G) Are there any surving lutes, complete or not, that might suggest a precedent for this triangular, wide-belly shape? By the by, some have rumored to have seen a plectrum in this painting but in the detail, I honestly don't see it. Granted this is a ficticious concert (angels, etc), and while the weight lately has been to give most lute playing in this era a pick of some kind (or to one of the players), I don't see the plectrum support in this instance. On the other hand, so to speak, I see support for playing 15th century music in the same polyphonic way as the next. Fascinating right hand technique on the blond plucker, too. And my thanks to Alfonso for posting this page of lute iconography. Here's the rest of it: http://www.xs4all.nl/~amarin/Page1.html all the best, Sean Smith To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html Edward Martin 2817 East 2nd Street Duluth, Minnesota 55812 e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] voice: (218) 728-1202 Edward Martin 2817 East 2nd Street Duluth, Minnesota 55812 e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] voice: (218) 728-1202
Re: Montagna's lutes
After reading the emails this morning I listened to my copy of Crawford's CD Intabulations: Lute Music 1440-1500 (Lantefana 1995 Sonnenweg 4/1 D-79276 Reute Germany). There is a nice booklet with the CD that talks a bit about the repertoire and mentions things including that the lute is in a transitional style between plectrum and fingers, ornamentation or a single line from a vocal piece and the relation between lute and organ music of the time, espeically Konrad Paumann. This CD is a great place for those of you who want to know more about this repertoire to start. Also the LSA will be publishing an interview with Crawford in our Quarterly, as soon as Ed Durbrow finishes it. Ed, did you discuss plectrum technique in the interview? Nancy Carlin I do not know Crawford Young, but I am aware that he does indeed use plectrum quite a bit. I do not know if it is on each piece, and I have no specifics. But, I do know he gets a sweet sound, not so brittle in his technique. I do not know if he uses actual quills, feathers, or modern plectra. Ed At 08:29 AM 3/30/2005 -0800, Dr. Marion Ceruti wrote: Hi Ed, Nancy Carlin Associates P.O. Box 6499 Concord, CA 94524 USA phone 925/686-5800 fax 925/680-2582 web site - www.nancycarlinassociates.com Representing: Administrator THE LUTE SOCIETY OF AMERICA web site - http://LuteSocietyofAmerica.org -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Montagna's lutes
Having lived in the 6-course world for a while now I'm very interested in the left lute in this painting by Montagna: http://www.xs4all.nl/~amarin/Page1-Pages/Image198.html http://www.xs4all.nl/~amarin/Page1-Pages/Image199.html It appears M. tried to be very realistic in the proportions, colors and detail and I think there may be enough information in it to actually build a copy. Granted we don't know the string length or the back shape but some of this could be educatedly guessed at. Has anyone had a lute built in this shape (or built one) and if so what are your conclusions? Might it make a good F or A lute? (I'm set for G) Are there any surving lutes, complete or not, that might suggest a precedent for this triangular, wide-belly shape? By the by, some have rumored to have seen a plectrum in this painting but in the detail, I honestly don't see it. Granted this is a ficticious concert (angels, etc), and while the weight lately has been to give most lute playing in this era a pick of some kind (or to one of the players), I don't see the plectrum support in this instance. On the other hand, so to speak, I see support for playing 15th century music in the same polyphonic way as the next. Fascinating right hand technique on the blond plucker, too. And my thanks to Alfonso for posting this page of lute iconography. Here's the rest of it: http://www.xs4all.nl/~amarin/Page1.html all the best, Sean Smith To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Montagna's lutes
Dear Sean, Thank you for posting these pictures. The same picture is on the cover of Karl-Ernst Schroder and Crawford Young's CD, Amours amours amours released in 2002 by Harmonia Mundi HMC905254. In fact two A lutes were used in this recording as well as a lute in E. If the music on the CD is any indication of what the concert depicted in the picture was supposed have on the program, I doubt that a plectrum was used. Best regards, Marion -Original Message- From: Sean Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Mar 29, 2005 4:00 PM To: Lutelist lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: Montagna's lutes Having lived in the 6-course world for a while now I'm very interested in the left lute in this painting by Montagna: http://www.xs4all.nl/~amarin/Page1-Pages/Image198.html http://www.xs4all.nl/~amarin/Page1-Pages/Image199.html It appears M. tried to be very realistic in the proportions, colors and detail and I think there may be enough information in it to actually build a copy. Granted we don't know the string length or the back shape but some of this could be educatedly guessed at. Has anyone had a lute built in this shape (or built one) and if so what are your conclusions? Might it make a good F or A lute? (I'm set for G) Are there any surving lutes, complete or not, that might suggest a precedent for this triangular, wide-belly shape? By the by, some have rumored to have seen a plectrum in this painting but in the detail, I honestly don't see it. Granted this is a ficticious concert (angels, etc), and while the weight lately has been to give most lute playing in this era a pick of some kind (or to one of the players), I don't see the plectrum support in this instance. On the other hand, so to speak, I see support for playing 15th century music in the same polyphonic way as the next. Fascinating right hand technique on the blond plucker, too. And my thanks to Alfonso for posting this page of lute iconography. Here's the rest of it: http://www.xs4all.nl/~amarin/Page1.html all the best, Sean Smith To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Montagna's lutes
Dear Marion and Sean: Much of the music on the Schroeder-Young recording is playable with a plectrum on one lute; the other, the tenor, usually must be played with the fingers for the music to work. I have played the treble part of a number of these pieces with a plectrum on a five-course gittern or lute. Cheers, Jim |-+ | | Dr. Marion | | | Ceruti | | | [EMAIL PROTECTED]| | | .net| | || | | 03/29/2005 09:19 | | | PM | | | Please respond to| | | Dr. Marion | | | Ceruti | | || |-+ --| | | | To: Sean Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED], Lutelist lute@cs.dartmouth.edu | | cc: | | Subject: Re: Montagna's lutes | --| Dear Sean, Thank you for posting these pictures. The same picture is on the cover of Karl-Ernst Schroder and Crawford Young's CD, Amours amours amours released in 2002 by Harmonia Mundi HMC905254. In fact two A lutes were used in this recording as well as a lute in E. If the music on the CD is any indication of what the concert depicted in the picture was supposed have on the program, I doubt that a plectrum was used. Best regards, Marion -Original Message- From: Sean Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Mar 29, 2005 4:00 PM To: Lutelist lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: Montagna's lutes Having lived in the 6-course world for a while now I'm very interested in the left lute in this painting by Montagna: http://www.xs4all.nl/~amarin/Page1-Pages/Image198.html http://www.xs4all.nl/~amarin/Page1-Pages/Image199.html It appears M. tried to be very realistic in the proportions, colors and detail and I think there may be enough information in it to actually build a copy. Granted we don't know the string length or the back shape but some of this could be educatedly guessed at. Has anyone had a lute built in this shape (or built one) and if so what are your conclusions? Might it make a good F or A lute? (I'm set for G) Are there any surving lutes, complete or not, that might suggest a precedent for this triangular, wide-belly shape? By the by, some have rumored to have seen a plectrum in this painting but in the detail, I honestly don't see it. Granted this is a ficticious concert (angels, etc), and while the weight lately has been to give most lute playing in this era a pick of some kind (or to one of the players), I don't see the plectrum support in this instance. On the other hand, so to speak, I see support for playing 15th century music in the same polyphonic way as the next. Fascinating right hand technique on the blond plucker, too. And my thanks to Alfonso for posting this page of lute iconography. Here's the rest of it: http://www.xs4all.nl/~amarin/Page1.html all the best, Sean Smith To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Montagna's lutes
And another thing: How come none of these artists get the fret proportions right, even though they seem to get everything else right? By the way, the most accurate rendering of fret spacing I've ever seen is in a print by M.C. Escher, not exactly a contemporary of the lutenists, but very mathematical in his approach. Cheers, Jim To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Montagna's lutes
Marion, I do believe Crawford Yound used a plectrum on the upper parts. ed At 06:19 PM 3/29/2005 -0800, Dr. Marion Ceruti wrote: Dear Sean, Thank you for posting these pictures. The same picture is on the cover of Karl-Ernst Schroder and Crawford Young's CD, Amours amours amours released in 2002 by Harmonia Mundi HMC905254. In fact two A lutes were used in this recording as well as a lute in E. If the music on the CD is any indication of what the concert depicted in the picture was supposed have on the program, I doubt that a plectrum was used. Best regards, Marion -Original Message- From: Sean Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Mar 29, 2005 4:00 PM To: Lutelist lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: Montagna's lutes Having lived in the 6-course world for a while now I'm very interested in the left lute in this painting by Montagna: http://www.xs4all.nl/~amarin/Page1-Pages/Image198.html http://www.xs4all.nl/~amarin/Page1-Pages/Image199.html It appears M. tried to be very realistic in the proportions, colors and detail and I think there may be enough information in it to actually build a copy. Granted we don't know the string length or the back shape but some of this could be educatedly guessed at. Has anyone had a lute built in this shape (or built one) and if so what are your conclusions? Might it make a good F or A lute? (I'm set for G) Are there any surving lutes, complete or not, that might suggest a precedent for this triangular, wide-belly shape? By the by, some have rumored to have seen a plectrum in this painting but in the detail, I honestly don't see it. Granted this is a ficticious concert (angels, etc), and while the weight lately has been to give most lute playing in this era a pick of some kind (or to one of the players), I don't see the plectrum support in this instance. On the other hand, so to speak, I see support for playing 15th century music in the same polyphonic way as the next. Fascinating right hand technique on the blond plucker, too. And my thanks to Alfonso for posting this page of lute iconography. Here's the rest of it: http://www.xs4all.nl/~amarin/Page1.html all the best, Sean Smith To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html Edward Martin 2817 East 2nd Street Duluth, Minnesota 55812 e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] voice: (218) 728-1202
Re: Montagna's lutes
Did anyone see one of their concerts performing this duets? Or maybe we could ask Crawford? I have other CDs where CY is using a plectrum. Looking at the picture again, I would think the right side player is playing the trebles (if this were that kind of song set) but I don't know why. Maybe because his lute has the wider spacing (good for plectrum, right?) Or maybe he looks more confident giving the tuning pitch to his tenorista. Or maybe they're both supporting the fiddler? Interesting that on the CD cover they look so perfect as a duo but the painting really is a trio. And yes, it's a great CD. I've hunted down a lot of those tunes and they really are that much fun to play. Albeit slower ;^) s On Mar 29, 2005, at 7:08 PM, Edward Martin wrote: Marion, I do believe Crawford Yound used a plectrum on the upper parts. ed At 06:19 PM 3/29/2005 -0800, Dr. Marion Ceruti wrote: Dear Sean, Thank you for posting these pictures. The same picture is on the cover of Karl-Ernst Schroder and Crawford Young's CD, Amours amours amours released in 2002 by Harmonia Mundi HMC905254. In fact two A lutes were used in this recording as well as a lute in E. If the music on the CD is any indication of what the concert depicted in the picture was supposed have on the program, I doubt that a plectrum was used. Best regards, Marion -Original Message- From: Sean Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Mar 29, 2005 4:00 PM To: Lutelist lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: Montagna's lutes Having lived in the 6-course world for a while now I'm very interested in the left lute in this painting by Montagna: http://www.xs4all.nl/~amarin/Page1-Pages/Image198.html http://www.xs4all.nl/~amarin/Page1-Pages/Image199.html It appears M. tried to be very realistic in the proportions, colors and detail and I think there may be enough information in it to actually build a copy. Granted we don't know the string length or the back shape but some of this could be educatedly guessed at. Has anyone had a lute built in this shape (or built one) and if so what are your conclusions? Might it make a good F or A lute? (I'm set for G) Are there any surving lutes, complete or not, that might suggest a precedent for this triangular, wide-belly shape? By the by, some have rumored to have seen a plectrum in this painting but in the detail, I honestly don't see it. Granted this is a ficticious concert (angels, etc), and while the weight lately has been to give most lute playing in this era a pick of some kind (or to one of the players), I don't see the plectrum support in this instance. On the other hand, so to speak, I see support for playing 15th century music in the same polyphonic way as the next. Fascinating right hand technique on the blond plucker, too. And my thanks to Alfonso for posting this page of lute iconography. Here's the rest of it: http://www.xs4all.nl/~amarin/Page1.html all the best, Sean Smith To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html Edward Martin 2817 East 2nd Street Duluth, Minnesota 55812 e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] voice: (218) 728-1202
Re: Montagna's lutes
Maybe the higher math of just where to place those frets (and how many) never seemed to impress them. Number of strings and fingers are always right but frets... dang! Maybe it's a left-brain, right-brain thing. s On Mar 29, 2005, at 6:43 PM, James A Stimson wrote: And another thing: How come none of these artists get the fret proportions right, even though they seem to get everything else right? By the way, the most accurate rendering of fret spacing I've ever seen is in a print by M.C. Escher, not exactly a contemporary of the lutenists, but very mathematical in his approach. Cheers, Jim To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
