Re: Planning the future (was Decent PIM for the N8x0)

[Jason Edgecombe]

Mark wrote:
> On Tue, May 6, 2008 at 8:04 AM, Kevin T. Neely
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>   
>>  Just look at how Nokia has it marketed:  it is an "N-series" device, which 
>> (apart from the tablet) is all smartphones.
>>
>> 
>
> That's really not true. First of all, every one of those smartphones
> has a decent PIM that works (not to mention a whole bunch of other
> non-phone-specific functionality), right out of the box. Second, the
> tablets are marketed as having a bunch of software available and
> easily installed. However, the majority of the apps available, while
> appreciated, don't really add any major capability. Those that do are
> things that should have been included out of the box (like USB Control
> - there's no excuse for there not being a built-in, easily accessible
> GUI applet for that).
>
> The bottom line is that regardless of how you perceive the tablets,
> they are not *consumer* devices. They are developer's toys, and not
> even very good for that because of so much of them being closed. They
> shouldn't be marketed as consumer devices.
>   
To all of those who have complained about the tablets in this thread and 
elsewhere, I direct you to a recent post on the maemo developers list:
http://lists.maemo.org/pipermail/maemo-developers/2008-May/017624.html

Quim Gil, the open source marketing manager for maemo & a Nokia 
employee, is asking for the community's help in planning for the next 
version of Nokia Internet Tablet OS. This is your chance to have your 
ideas and complaints heard by Nokia. Here is your chance. Either make 
your voice heard now, or stop complaining. In other words, "put up or 
shut up!"

Sincerely,
Jason
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Re: Decent PIM for the N8x0

[Graham Cobb]

On Tuesday 06 May 2008 20:18:33 Kevin T. Neely wrote:
> Kudos to Graham and
> all his work.  GPE may not be polished, but it has added yet another facet
> to my tablet.

Thanks for the kind words, Kevin.  But please be aware the kudos is due to the 
whole GPE team.

Graham
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Re: Decent PIM for the N8x0

[Kevin T. Neely]

On Tue, May 06, 2008 at 11:49:56AM -0600, Mark wrote:
> On Tue, May 6, 2008 at 8:04 AM, Kevin T. Neely
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >  Just look at how Nokia has it marketed:  it is an "N-series" device, which 
> > (apart from the tablet) is all smartphones.
> >
> 
> That's really not true. First of all, every one of those smartphones
> has a decent PIM that works (not to mention a whole bunch of other

Exactly what I said, they are all so-called "smartphones" as opposed to 
laptops.  Of course, that line blurs more and more each year.

I think the tablets are completely consumer devices.  Based on mine, a couple 
other people at work have purchased them.  One, I even had to upgrade the OS 
for her, since that process did not make sense to her.  But still, they all 
manage to take advantage of a number of apps, including GPE and canola, on the 
tablet. 

And, since the beginning of this thread, I have started to use the GPE apps 
more.  I now have Cal syncing with my Google Calendar(s) with Ermining and it 
works great, I've imported my contacts, so even though they do not sync (boy, 
syncing w/ Google would be great!) I still have 95% of the contacts I would 
ever want to look at sitting there in my pocket.
Kudos to Graham and all his work.  GPE may not be polished, but it has added 
yet another facet to my tablet.

K

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Re: Decent PIM for the N8x0

[Mark]

On Tue, May 6, 2008 at 8:04 AM, Kevin T. Neely
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>  Just look at how Nokia has it marketed:  it is an "N-series" device, which 
> (apart from the tablet) is all smartphones.
>

That's really not true. First of all, every one of those smartphones
has a decent PIM that works (not to mention a whole bunch of other
non-phone-specific functionality), right out of the box. Second, the
tablets are marketed as having a bunch of software available and
easily installed. However, the majority of the apps available, while
appreciated, don't really add any major capability. Those that do are
things that should have been included out of the box (like USB Control
- there's no excuse for there not being a built-in, easily accessible
GUI applet for that).

The bottom line is that regardless of how you perceive the tablets,
they are not *consumer* devices. They are developer's toys, and not
even very good for that because of so much of them being closed. They
shouldn't be marketed as consumer devices.

Mark
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Re: Decent PIM for the N8x0

[Kevin T. Neely]

On Mon, May 05, 2008 at 05:54:16PM -0600, Mark wrote:
> actually does out of the box. (And that tiny screen makes the "it's
> only an Internet device" excuse extremely absurd - who can stand to
> browse the Web very long with these things?) It's Nokia that has
> screwed us all, *including* the developers who were also hoping for

I have no problem browsing, IMing, eBooking (if that an be a verb) for hours on 
the tablet.  Compare it to any phone, and the tablet's screen is huge and the 
browsing experience is far superior.  And before you say it, no the tablet is 
not a phone, but it is not a laptop, either.  In fact, the tablet is much more 
like a phone than a laptop.  Just look at how Nokia has it marketed:  it is an 
"N-series" device, which (apart from the tablet) is all smartphones.

Lately, i have used Word-py to post a few blog entries.  This is actually a 
pretty nice text editor, and may be a good option for some more-formatted notes 
you may want to create.  I believe it saves in HTML format, which you could 
import into OO.org or whatever.

As much as I, like you, want to have my data available when not connected, this 
tablet is most assuredly marketed as an Internet Tablet and it appears the 
developers have Internet-connectedness in mind with the app development.  For 
right or wrong (and I think this is the right path, just as I think incliding 
Firefox 3 beta in the Hardy Heron Ubuntu release was the right forward-looking 
thing to do) this is the path the tablet is on, and it will become better as 
access becomes more ubiquitous, but it looks like we still have some growing 
pains ahead.

K

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Re: Decent PIM for the N8x0

[Mark]

On Mon, May 5, 2008 at 5:33 PM, Jonathan Markevich <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> The applications are all free in the cash sense but getting some changes to
> happen shows you how proprietary and territorial some people are.  So, I
> don't feel free to use the majority of them.
>
> Personally, I don't care enough to demand freeware, though do I expect a
> little bit over time.  I'm more than willing to buy software that saves me
> time and stress.  Any of you developers listening? :)
>

The thing is that I don't expect hobby developers (the freeware side
of things) to make the device usable. The problem is that Nokia is
selling something that is rather expensive considering how little it
actually does out of the box. (And that tiny screen makes the "it's
only an Internet device" excuse extremely absurd - who can stand to
browse the Web very long with these things?) It's Nokia that has
screwed us all, *including* the developers who were also hoping for
something more open and more usable.

Mark
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Re: Decent PIM for the N8x0

[Jonathan Markevich]

>
> >  happen, at least on the tablets.  Or you can compromise with reality
> and
> >  use OO on Google docs via your tablet, which does basically all you
> want
> >  (docs, spreadsheets, presentations, etc) online NOW with that dreaded
> >  free gmail account you don't want to have.
>
> 1. "Reality" is that I never have Internet access when I want to use
> the tablet to edit documents. If there's Internet access, then there's
> usually a more robust computer that I could use in the first place.
>

I'm in the same boat.  I don't have massive expectations - I used WordSmith
on the Palm many years ago, and adapted pretty good to its limitations.  I
look forward to AbiWord becoming generally usable.

Google docs rocks.  On the desktop.  Even the docs main page is almost
unusable on the n800 - it takes an eternity to load and the top logo area
takes up about 50% of the screen. All you get to see ultimately is 1
document's name.  Even if Google Gears were functional on the tablet, I
can't see gDocs working practically.


> >  If you're so paranoid you
> >  just can't leave stuff online,
>
> It's not paranoia, it's necessity. I need the data (especially contact
> information) available wherever I am, frequently when Internet access
> is not available. Again, what part of that do you not understand?
>

Contact info should be in the contact device - typically the cell phone.  I
haven't seen awesome contact managers for cell phones though.   The ideal
solution would be a link of some kind; the cell phone being the storage
device.

I'm not as worried about contact info security, but availability, yeah,
needs to be a fair bit better.  Again, though the contacts is the part of
the GPE suite I'm least disappointed with!  Doesn't say a alot, sadly.

It's not the marketplace that's leaving me wanting. It's my apparently
> naive and misguided desire to support Linux in general and FOSS in
>

We finally have reached the point on the desktop where you realize we
shouldn't HAVE to make compromises to use Linux.  Why have we gone all the
way back to the beginning with the tablet?  And it's not just tablets in
general, because I believe the Zaurus had plenty of great applications years
ago.

Actually, looking at KDE on the tablet shows what should be possible...  If
some system-level screen management happened it would be a full out
replacement.


> particular. If I hadn't held out for a Linux-based product, I could
> have had a device with Pocket Word etc. and a real, robust PIM years
> ago. Every single capability for which I'm asking has existed in *far*
> less powerful devices - out of the box - for years. Silly me...
>

Yeah, I'd pay for it too.  Just looking at theKompany's page, I'd shell out
the cash in a minute for a few of those applications.  I've bought loads of
PPC and Palm apps in the past, and don't regret it a bit even though I don't
use them anymore.  Heck, I bought WordPerfect 8 AND WordPerfect 2000 suite
(yikes) for Linux.

for it. So I'm screwed, and nobody cares. Gee, that's a lot like


I feel your pain.  I know we're just early adopters... for a 3 year old
platform though?  I still hold out a little hope.  Honestly though, I don't
see anything upcoming in the next 2 years.  Maybe the Canola guys will step
up, but they're spending an awful long time on a media player.


> So, what are the advantages of Linux and/or FOSS, exactly
>

Freedom and freeness.  Unfortunately, we don't really have them in this
case... the platform is a little too closed to be really free (in both
senses).  For example, why are we not drowning in virtual keyboard
alternatives?  Before the n810 came out, this was a MASSIVE complaint.  An
"itch" if you will.  What does one have to do to get an OPTI/Fitaly/ATOMIK
clone happening?  Or Graffiti 1 (all with clever little differences to avoid
the legal issues).  I spent chunk of today trying to get a map for ukeyboard
to approximate this.  It doesn't seem viable.

Setting up scratchbox is a herculean effort even to contemplate.  I've tried
it twice, I don't think I'm going to go there again.

The applications are all free in the cash sense but getting some changes to
happen shows you how proprietary and territorial some people are.  So, I
don't feel free to use the majority of them.

Personally, I don't care enough to demand freeware, though do I expect a
little bit over time.  I'm more than willing to buy software that saves me
time and stress.  Any of you developers listening? :)
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Re: Decent PIM for the N8x0

[Mark]

On Mon, May 5, 2008 at 2:21 PM, lakestevensdental
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Mark wrote:
>  >>>  So big deal, OpenOffice isn't currently available on the tablets, which
>  >>>
>  >>  > means OO docs can't be edited on the tablet.
>  >>
>  >>  We don't need OO on the tablet, though applications that can handle ODF
>  >>  would be nice. For example light weigh apps, such as Numeric and Abiword
>  >>  already exist. Unfortunately they don't support ODF.
>  >>
>  >>
>  > Speak for yourself. I *do* need OOo on the tablet. You're forgetting
>  > that it not only does ODF, it also does the Micro$oft formats just as
>  > well, not to mention rtf, txt, and a multitude of other formats. If
>  > somebody else comes out with an application that works as well with
>  > all those formats as OOo, great! That currently is not even close to
>  > being the case, though.
>  >
>  Well, you'll just have to wait for some sort of OO tablet port.  From
>  what I can tell, you may be holding your breath a long time for that to
>  happen, at least on the tablets.  Or you can compromise with reality and
>  use OO on Google docs via your tablet, which does basically all you want
>  (docs, spreadsheets, presentations, etc) online NOW with that dreaded
>  free gmail account you don't want to have.

1. "Reality" is that I never have Internet access when I want to use
the tablet to edit documents. If there's Internet access, then there's
usually a more robust computer that I could use in the first place.
What part of "I need to edit documents *anytime*, *anywhere* do you
not understand?

2. You're not too observant, since you've overlooked the fact that I
am in fact using Gmail. However, I don't store any contact information
in it other than email addresses.

>  If you're so paranoid you
>  just can't leave stuff online,

It's not paranoia, it's necessity. I need the data (especially contact
information) available wherever I am, frequently when Internet access
is not available. Again, what part of that do you not understand?

But now that you mention it, the *only* way to be certain of the level
of security is not to leave data in anyone else's hands. As with
flooding in New Orleans, it's not a matter of *if* it's going to
happen, it's only when. Even if it's not large-scale, it only takes
one disgruntled or unethical employee to expose other people's data.

Or haven't you been paying attention to the news?

> then port your work offline when you're
>  done and create pdf versions for your use on the OOless tablet

For *editing* PDFs on the tablet?!?!

>  There
>  are others, such as logging on to your desktop remotely and running OO
>  remotely on your desktop over the internet that can be done for free.
>  You just have to schedule your work when you've got internet access.

You really are a broken record. When the criteria is that Internet
access is not available, why do you keep suggesting it as though it
were an option?

>   Basically, if you paint yourself into a corner with your somewhat
>  isolated paranoid demands, don't be surprised if the marketplace leaves
>  you wanting.

It's not the marketplace that's leaving me wanting. It's my apparently
naive and misguided desire to support Linux in general and FOSS in
particular. If I hadn't held out for a Linux-based product, I could
have had a device with Pocket Word etc. and a real, robust PIM years
ago. Every single capability for which I'm asking has existed in *far*
less powerful devices - out of the box - for years. Silly me...

And yeah, I'm *really* wishing I had gone for the eee PC instead. At
least I could have loaded a real Linux distribution - or even WinXP if
that's what it took to get the applications I need. Unfortunately, I'm
now completely financially strapped and there's no possibility of
obtaining an eee PC, even if I could sell the Nokia for what I paid
for it. So I'm screwed, and nobody cares. Gee, that's a lot like
Micro$oft's attitude, isn't it?

So, what are the advantages of Linux and/or FOSS, exactly

Mark
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Re: Decent PIM for the N8x0

[lakestevensdental]

Mark wrote:
> If you're "syncing" with the tablet, then you have a PIM on the
> tablet. I don't use Google or any other online document or calendar
> services and never will. There's no substitute for having (often
> private/sensitive) data on the local machine rather than in the hands
> of some faceless corporation, not to mention that when one most needs
> access to the data just might be (and in my case *usually* is when no
> network is available or when wireless is banned or even deliberately
> jammed.
>   
There may be PIM workarounds available that will fill your need.  I use 
Claw mail on the tablet and, I think it has a calendar (which I don't 
use).  It's probably possible to easily port it's info around to other 
Claw mail programs with it's export import options.

  Also, I'm currently not aware of too many folks who have had security 
issues with Google accounts.  I'm sure that day may come -- it's just 
the info most folks are storing there is hugely full of BS, like when my 
tennis matches are for the next couple weeks, my son's soccer team 
contacts.  It's stuff that just isn't important to anyone else, at least 
when compared to online credit card info which has a much higher value 
per byte and probably takes just as much effort or more to steal.  That 
being said, Gdocs is perhaps not the best place to store your credit 
card info and log in info for various services, unless perhaps it's 
appropriately encrypted and protected.  For all I know, that's part of 
the system, or could be done, or is perhaps planned... 

>>>  So big deal, OpenOffice isn't currently available on the tablets, which
>>>   
>>  > means OO docs can't be edited on the tablet.
>>
>>  We don't need OO on the tablet, though applications that can handle ODF
>>  would be nice. For example light weigh apps, such as Numeric and Abiword
>>  already exist. Unfortunately they don't support ODF.
>>
>> 
> Speak for yourself. I *do* need OOo on the tablet. You're forgetting
> that it not only does ODF, it also does the Micro$oft formats just as
> well, not to mention rtf, txt, and a multitude of other formats. If
> somebody else comes out with an application that works as well with
> all those formats as OOo, great! That currently is not even close to
> being the case, though.
>   
Well, you'll just have to wait for some sort of OO tablet port.  From 
what I can tell, you may be holding your breath a long time for that to 
happen, at least on the tablets.  Or you can compromise with reality and 
use OO on Google docs via your tablet, which does basically all you want 
(docs, spreadsheets, presentations, etc) online NOW with that dreaded 
free gmail account you don't want to have.  If you're so paranoid you 
just can't leave stuff online, then port your work offline when you're 
done and create pdf versions for your use on the OOless tablet. There 
are readily available FREE solutions available to you and others.  There 
are others, such as logging on to your desktop remotely and running OO 
remotely on your desktop over the internet that can be done for free.  
You just have to schedule your work when you've got internet access. 

  Basically, if you paint yourself into a corner with your somewhat 
isolated paranoid demands, don't be surprised if the marketplace leaves 
you wanting.  Jumping up and down with demands for extra attention may 
not help you much but feel free to persist.  There are reasonably 
portable products (such as the eee microlaptop) out there that do 
exactly what you want right out of the box -- they're just not internet 
tablets, although there are persistent rumors of a touch screen eee out 
there.  It may come to pass -- for a price...  There are higher end 
tablets for  to be had.  If what you're doing is of high value, then 
perhaps the extra cost to get a micro touchscreen tablet might be

  I guess it all comes down to you've got to pick your battles -- good 
luck with the one's you've chosen to fight -- keep us updated as to your 
progress... 

Always, Fred C
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Re: Decent PIM for the N8x0

[Mark]

On Sun, May 4, 2008 at 6:01 AM, James Knott <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Lake Stevens Dental wrote:
>  > IMHO, the world doesn't need another PIM.  What it needs is a system to
>  > sync with a commonly available system (like google docs, email, &
>  > calendar) and a universal port of that software to whatever platform one
>  > is using (including tablets).  When one edits on the local, it syncs
>  > with Google and visa versa -- all in a rather seamless brain dead
>  > fashion.   Kind of like how FoxMarks in Firefox to sync browser
>  > bookmarks...(like when is that option going to come to tablets?)
>  >
>
If you're "syncing" with the tablet, then you have a PIM on the
tablet. I don't use Google or any other online document or calendar
services and never will. There's no substitute for having (often
private/sensitive) data on the local machine rather than in the hands
of some faceless corporation, not to mention that when one most needs
access to the data just might be (and in my case *usually* is when no
network is available or when wireless is banned or even deliberately
jammed.
>
> >  So big deal, OpenOffice isn't currently available on the tablets, which
>  > means OO docs can't be edited on the tablet.
>
>  We don't need OO on the tablet, though applications that can handle ODF
>  would be nice. For example light weigh apps, such as Numeric and Abiword
>  already exist. Unfortunately they don't support ODF.
>
Speak for yourself. I *do* need OOo on the tablet. You're forgetting
that it not only does ODF, it also does the Micro$oft formats just as
well, not to mention rtf, txt, and a multitude of other formats. If
somebody else comes out with an application that works as well with
all those formats as OOo, great! That currently is not even close to
being the case, though.

The other issue is that I'm dealing with not only word processing
documents, but spreadsheets, presentations, and databases as well. By
the time you get all the different applications installed to do all
those things, you may as well just have OOo. Why reinvent the wheel?

I had Gnumeric installed until a reflash, but now I've forgotten the
hoops I had to go through to put it on OS2008, and will have to find
that information again. Not user friendly...

Mark
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(Resolved) (For me)Re: Decent PIM for the N8x0

[Gary Baribault]

A decade ago (Well maybe not quite), I started this thread complaining 
about the GPE-Calendar and then privately to Graham about gpesyncd.

Like all good people, Graham took my rather bitter complaint like a true 
gentleman, he didn't get pissed off, just asked me privately, off list, 
for specific information about my problems. He then worked hard and 
found the problems and fixed them. My calendar no longer rings for 
nothing, and my contacts are all loaded up.

The thread wandered off into some other valid discussions, and that's 
fun. The GPE suite is not perfect, but thanks to the Open Source 
developers I finally have what I consider to be a functional PIM, and 
can get on to playing/learning the system properly.

Thanks Graham, and keep this discussion going,

Gary Baribault
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Re: Decent PIM for the N8x0

[James Knott]

Lake Stevens Dental wrote:
> James Knott wrote:
>> As an example, I can export my address book in LDIF format, from 
>> Seamonkey, Thunderbird etc.  However, for some reason the N800 email 
>> app gets the fields mixed up when importing the data.  How could that 
>> happen, if whoever wrote the email app was paying attention to specs?
>>   
>  IMHO, TB & SM are fine apps for single user systems.  I used TB on my 
> laptop and desktops for email and RSS for quite a number of years.  
> Like you, I've also had a lot of hassles keeping my TBs contacts and 
> calendars synced between my laptop, office desktop, tablet and home 
> desktop power computer (used for media apps).   I've attempted to 
> install some TB extensions that supposedly syncs TB contacts, but that 
> seems a work in progress at best, at least when compared to Foxmarks 
> syncing browser data on Firebox.  Ditto for TB Calendar syncing 
> progress.   It would be nice to have them sync with gmail calendar...
>  In my limited attempts to sync data, TB seems to mangle exports into 
> gmail just as much as it does my tablet.  I haven't tried gmail 
> exports of contacts, but that's probably because I've haven't 
> successfully got my extensive TB contacts properly imported into 
> gmail.  My time sorting this stuff out is limited.  I've just got too 
> much other stuff to do.  At this point, it seems most of the syncing 
> problem may be TB (or SM) exports.  These issues all seems to not be a 
> problem on Gmail, except there currently doesn't seem to be readily 
> available syncing of Gmail and calendars with any offline apps, 
> although it's possible I just haven't spent the time finding out 
> what's available.  My guess is if it's not available, compatible 
> syncing offline apps for gmail and gdocs is likely to happen soon 
> enough.  
I wasn't talking about syncing the address book, just exporting and 
importing the contents.  I have done that with Google mail and another 
on-line email app, without problem.  However, as I mentioned, the N800 
email app gets the fields mixed up.  One thing that really bugs me, are 
those who say it's only an internet tablet, as though that somehow 
excuses incompatibility.  Well, it's not just an internet tablet.  It's 
a Linux computer and should be able to do anything any other Linux box 
does, bearing in mind the hardware limitations.  Limited hardware 
doesn't cause problems with importing files.  That cause by whoever 
wrote the app not paying attention to what they're doing.



-- 
Use OpenOffice.org 
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Re: Decent PIM for the N8x0

[Lake Stevens Dental]

James Knott wrote:
> As an example, I can export my address book in LDIF format, from 
> Seamonkey, Thunderbird etc.  However, for some reason the N800 email app 
> gets the fields mixed up when importing the data.  How could that 
> happen, if whoever wrote the email app was paying attention to specs?
>   
  IMHO, TB & SM are fine apps for single user systems.  I used TB on my 
laptop and desktops for email and RSS for quite a number of years.  Like 
you, I've also had a lot of hassles keeping my TBs contacts and 
calendars synced between my laptop, office desktop, tablet and home 
desktop power computer (used for media apps).   I've attempted to 
install some TB extensions that supposedly syncs TB contacts, but that 
seems a work in progress at best, at least when compared to Foxmarks 
syncing browser data on Firebox.  Ditto for TB Calendar syncing 
progress.   It would be nice to have them sync with gmail calendar... 

  In my limited attempts to sync data, TB seems to mangle exports into 
gmail just as much as it does my tablet.  I haven't tried gmail exports 
of contacts, but that's probably because I've haven't successfully got 
my extensive TB contacts properly imported into gmail.  My time sorting 
this stuff out is limited.  I've just got too much other stuff to do.  
At this point, it seems most of the syncing problem may be TB (or SM) 
exports.  These issues all seems to not be a problem on Gmail, except 
there currently doesn't seem to be readily available syncing of Gmail 
and calendars with any offline apps, although it's possible I just 
haven't spent the time finding out what's available.  My guess is if 
it's not available, compatible syncing offline apps for gmail and gdocs 
is likely to happen soon enough.   

-- 

Always, Dr Fred C
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

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Re: Decent PIM for the N8x0

[James Knott]

Lake Stevens Dental wrote:
>
>   However, IMHO, anyone who thinks the tablets are supposed to replace 
> a larger (laptop/desktop) unit for editing misunderstands what these 
> internet tablet devices are all about.  Anyone who needs OO editing on 
> the tablet can get it NOW via Google Docs when they've got internet 
> access.   And one can port any of these documents over to the tablet 
> for display offline as pdf via a variety of means.  Ditto for PIMs. 
>
>   Get a clue folks -- the market is moving to store information and 
> apps online.  For many folks, the tablet's primary use is or will be a 
> "portal" to these online resources (data and apps).  This isn't to say 
> it wouldn't be nice to have some offline apps to manipulate that data 
> to be resynced with online at one's convenience.   Developing new, 
> incompatible offline apps is just not the primary direction the market 
> is going, at least for portal devices.  Google's gain is likely to be 
> Microsoft Office's (and other non-compatible, non-syncing offline apps 
> and resources) loss in the near future.

With a device such as the N800/801, WiFi might not always be available.  
I've never asked for incompatible apps, as I mentioned, something that 
supports ODF would be nice.  And open standards should be used whenever 
possible.  Google already supports ODF, IIRC.
>
>  As a disclaimer -- I don't have any stock in any of these companies 
> -- perhaps I should...   It's just that when non-techy acquaintances 
> of mine tell me they are moving to gmail and gdocs in significant 
> numbers, something is going on... 
>
>   Creating another layer of small market, incompatible offline apps 
> that don't readily sync their data with common online resources may 
> only impair the full development and utility of these portal devices.  
> The next level of technology for portal devices is going to be some 
> sort of wi-max devices with a lot more internet access than today's 
> wifi provides.  In which case, the users of these new devices will 
> probably ask "who needs these offline apps when you can almost always 
> be online?". 
>
>   IMHO, what is needed is a focus on developing better sync capability 
> for the various devices that one uses -- there's a number of folks  
> working on just that.  At some point in the near future, it will be 
> nice (and presumably possible) to have my regular cell phone, 
> desktops, laptops, tablets and what-not all be synced with for PIM, 
> docs, galleries, and other device appropriate resources.  

As an example, I can export my address book in LDIF format, from 
Seamonkey, Thunderbird etc.  However, for some reason the N800 email app 
gets the fields mixed up when importing the data.  How could that 
happen, if whoever wrote the email app was paying attention to specs?


-- 
Use OpenOffice.org 
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Re: Decent PIM for the N8x0

[James Knott]

Lake Stevens Dental wrote:
> IMHO, the world doesn't need another PIM.  What it needs is a system to 
> sync with a commonly available system (like google docs, email, & 
> calendar) and a universal port of that software to whatever platform one 
> is using (including tablets).  When one edits on the local, it syncs 
> with Google and visa versa -- all in a rather seamless brain dead 
> fashion.   Kind of like how FoxMarks in Firefox to sync browser 
> bookmarks...(like when is that option going to come to tablets?)
>   

A PIM that works well would be useful on the N800/810.
>  So big deal, OpenOffice isn't currently available on the tablets, which 
> means OO docs can't be edited on the tablet.

We don't need OO on the tablet, though applications that can handle ODF 
would be nice. For example light weigh apps, such as Numeric and Abiword 
already exist. Unfortunately they don't support ODF.

-- 
Use OpenOffice.org 
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Re: Decent PIM for the N8x0

[Lake Stevens Dental]

IMHO, the world doesn't need another PIM.  What it needs is a system to 
sync with a commonly available system (like google docs, email, & 
calendar) and a universal port of that software to whatever platform one 
is using (including tablets).  When one edits on the local, it syncs 
with Google and visa versa -- all in a rather seamless brain dead 
fashion.   Kind of like how FoxMarks in Firefox to sync browser 
bookmarks...(like when is that option going to come to tablets?)

 So big deal, OpenOffice isn't currently available on the tablets, which 
means OO docs can't be edited on the tablet.  However, there's 
apparently several ways to convert OO docs into pdf files to 'sync' with 
the online docs, in an uneditable fashion.  Deal with it...  Offer the 
option to sync to tablets (or wherever) in pdf if editing options aren't 
available.  Even with systems that have editing options, having a pdf 
(non-editing option) might be preferable.  Don't waste time reinventing 
the wheel...  Just make it so it spins easier, faster, freer and in more 
places than ever...

Always, Fred C
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Re: Decent PIM for the N8x0

[Graham Cobb]

On Saturday 03 May 2008 20:25:00 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> Fopr the sake of argument, let's suppose I'm convinced.  Now comes the
> question of what I can do to join the project in orger to develop the
> todo list.
>
> I regularly use two machines -- a 32-bit Debian Lenny, and a 64-but
> Debian etch.  No, make that three machines -- I have an n800
> with OS2007.  I haven't upgraded to 2008 for two reasons: (1)
> inertia and (2) I've heard a lot of complaints about 2008.

You need to be able to do development and testing for the systems you are 
targetting (IT2007 is fine, although being able to also boot into IT2008 for 
testing would be an advantage in case there are bugs which only show up on 
that platform -- the Hildon widgets are different).  To develop for the 
Internet Tablet you would need to install the scratchbox-based Maemo SDK.  
The SDK is easy to install and run on 32-bit Lenny (that is my main 
development environment).  It is hard to make it work on 64-bit Debian (or on 
Etch) but there is also a VMware appliance which may work in those 
environments.

> Presumably I have to install development software that's
> specific to Debian and to the n800, as well as relevant versioning
> system(s).  What do I need? How do I get started with it?  Do I need to
> convince anyone that my ideas (such as nonautomatic task ordering) are
> worthwhile?

To work on GPE you will need SVN installed.  You would definitely want to 
subscribe to the GPE mailing list -- where people will be happy to help you 
with the process of getting started.  You don't have to get any sort of 
permission to start making changes and submitting patches to the mailing list 
(as with most open source projects that is the usual way to start 
contributing -- once people see you are doing good work you may be offered 
direct update access to the SVN repository).  In principle, you might need to 
convince Florian (the GPE project leader) your ideas are worthwhile for him 
to be willing to accept your patches.  In practice I can't see anyone 
complaining about the manual task ordering idea -- it sounds like a good idea 
to me.  

The most likely problem is that GPE actually runs on many different platforms 
and any patches must not break the other platforms (sometimes a new feature 
might not work on other platforms but the code should still build and the old 
behaviour work).  But people on the list or reviewing and testing your 
patches can help with that.

Maemo-users is probably not the right place to go into any more detail.  If 
you are interested in contributing to the project please either contact me 
off list (I would be happy to supply much more information and pointers to 
things like the SDK and the GPE mailing list) or just join the GPE mailing 
list and introduce yourself there.

Graham
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Re: Decent PIM for the N8x0

[hendrik]

On Tue, Apr 29, 2008 at 04:39:31PM +0100, Graham Cobb wrote:
> On Tuesday 29 April 2008 15:18:01 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> > On Mon, Apr 28, 2008 at 08:40:30PM -0400, Gary Baribault wrote:
> > > I kind of wish that someone would start up an oposing PIM .. Any takers?
> > > 450$ to play Mahjong or Blocks seems a little steep!
> 
> I didn't start working on GPE because I thought it was a great project: I 
> started working on GPE because I had a need for a PIM on the Internet Tablet 
> and it seemed more sensible to start with an existing piece of software and 
> make improvements rather than create something from scratch.  
> 
> It doesn't seem likely to me that starting an opposing PIM would help.  There 
> are few enough people to work on one -- what would be achieved by trying to 
> work on two?  All of people's pet peeves with GPE (bugs, UI, features) could 
> be fixed if there were one or two more developers with time to make a 
> contribution.

Fopr the sake of argument, let's suppose I'm convinced.  Now comes the 
question of what I can do to join the project in orger to develop the 
todo list.

I regularly use two machines -- a 32-bit Debian Lenny, and a 64-but 
Debian etch.  No, make that three machines -- I have an n800 
with OS2007.  I haven't upgraded to 2008 for two reasons: (1) 
inertia and (2) I've heard a lot of complaints about 2008.

Presumably I have to install development software that's 
specific to Debian and to the n800, as well as relevant versioning 
system(s).  What do I need? How do I get started with it?  Do I need to 
convince anyone that my ideas (such as nonautomatic task ordering) are 
worthwhile?

-- hendrik

> 
> > I've certainly considered it -- but first I want to put together a sync
> > mechanism that
> >   * doesn't care how many places you sync with,
> >   * doesn't care whether the places sync amongst each other.
> >   * provides syntactic guarantees about merged updates.
> > Such a sync mechanism I need for more things than an improved PIM.
> 
> Sync mechanisms are also something that seems to become much more complex 
> than 
> one expects when one starts.  I would encourage you to contribute to 
> improving OpenSync if possible, rather than start yet another project.  If 
> nothing else, there are people on the OpenSync list who have tackled many of 
> these problems and who may have useful advice.  It is another project where a 
> usable product is in sight but there are not enough developer-hours to get 
> there at the speed we would wish.
> 
> Graham
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Re: Decent PIM for the N8x0

[Kevin T. Neely]

Summary:  

- Developers use Bugzilla as a to-do list for their project, with input from 
users
- Many users are frustrated by the need to remember a login and enter the data
- It is not a perfect system

Can we move on from the Bugzilla discussion please?  If there are still 
complaints or ideas for Bugzilla, it would be more constructive to take those 
to the Bugzilla team.

Thanks to Graham for GPE, thanks to the users for their time and ideas,
Kevin


-- 
In Vino Veritas
http://astroturfgarden.com



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Re: Decent PIM for the N8x0

[Mark]

On Thu, May 1, 2008 at 5:04 PM, Jonathan Markevich
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On Thu, May 1, 2008 at 6:07 PM, Ryan Pavlik <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> The frustration for ME is not that this is new, it's that it's gotten
> wearyingly old.  But through the eyes of someone to whom this is new... it's
> frightening, confusing and there be dragons.  Even the button on the bottom
> says "Commit"!  What's wrong with "Save"?
>

...and how about the fact that it shows a whole bunch of stuff that I
can't edit or change? why bother allowing me to select something from
a list and then "Commit", only to then give me an error page telling
me that I can't make that change - but not tell me which particular
item it was? At *least* grey out the things I can't change Better
yet, don't even show them to me! But then, several of those things I
*should* be able to change, which happens to be the most aggravating
thing of all...

Mark
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Re: Decent PIM for the N8x0

[Jonathan Markevich]

On Thu, May 1, 2008 at 6:07 PM, Ryan Pavlik <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> a) Oh boy another online registration!  And for Bugzilla!  Which is more
> > annoying, the missing features or the way of reporting them?  (trick
> > question, bugzilla of course).
> >
> See previous threads, not gonna start this one again.
>

Yeah, after 2 or 3 email round trips, I sacrificed my email address up again
on the net, muddled through confusing intro pages and finally got to a page
where I was invited to search, report, analyze and get statistical
observations on all bugs.

Sweet.

"This is where we put in lots of nifty words explaining all about Bugzilla."
> > indeed.
> >
>
> /me rolls his eyes.
> That would be the clever text that comes with Bugzilla.
>

It would be clever of developers to take a little time and make it look
homey, don'tcha think?  Make it seem like they're welcoming people to use
it?  Seriously, how long could that take?  When I set up trac a while back,
I made sure I put the basics in immediately, especially before I gave anyone
access.

> b) Ideas.  Not bugs.  Why a bug tracker...
> >
> It's really more of an issue tracker - if you registered you'd see there's
> a "Enhancement" priority.  In any case, it's a searchable, useable database
> rather than the freeform temporal storage that is email.
>

I did.  And like I said before, the developers can and should use any issue
tracker that suits their fancy.  I personally found it very nonintuitive and
frustrating to use.  Anyway, we've been through all this before.

There was a priority dropdown, which meant nothing to me, lots of
dev-specific code phrases (cool I can call this a blocker!), and version
numbers that mean absolutely nothing to me - as there's no version
information visible in the app (GPE 2.8 isn't in the list).  Plenty of
checkboxes that I clearly shouldn't touch... most of all a strong suspicion
that all this effort is for naught...  I just know I'll get an email a while
from now saying "We won't implement this feature because it changes the way
it works now"

The frustration for ME is not that this is new, it's that it's gotten
wearyingly old.  But through the eyes of someone to whom this is new... it's
frightening, confusing and there be dragons.  Even the button on the bottom
says "Commit"!  What's wrong with "Save"?

There I go again... and I'm not going to change the world, as much as I want
to.

What would REALLY help is a go-between.  Someone who knows and doesn't mind
the warts of Bugzilla.  Who can enter things quickly, easily and properly
and ask the user for more detail if necessary.  I'm going to join the GPE
list, too, I guess, to see if that helps. Maybe that user will be me, who
knows.  I still prefer if it was trac, though, and trac ain't perfect
either.
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Re: Decent PIM for the N8x0

[Graham Cobb]

On Thursday 01 May 2008 21:13:05 Jonathan Markevich wrote:
> a) Oh boy another online registration!  And for Bugzilla!  Which is more
> annoying, the missing features or the way of reporting them?  (trick
> question, bugzilla of course).

The GPE bugzilla is the best place to record suggestions, if you are willing 
to deal with the overhead of that.  Second best is to join the GPE mailing 
list and make suggestions on that.  Third best is here.

> b) Ideas.  Not bugs.  Why a bug tracker...

One man's bug is another man's enhancement.  Having bugs and feature 
enhancements in the same system makes it easy to see both and move an item 
between the two categories.  It allows people to do things like add comments 
explaining why something should really be considered a bug not an enhancement 
and should be given a higher priority.

Also, it saves them getting lost and gives new developers a good place to go 
to see what sorts of things people need (both bugs and enhancements).

> c) This is n800 specific.  Does it go to Graham or upstream?  If Graham
> gets an idea, can he implement it or does it go upstream?  Does google tell
> me that?

I did not develop any of the GUI -- I am really not a GUI guy (give me a 
kernel device driver to play with for preference -- much more 
straightforward).  In GPE my main interests are Maemo packaging and 
synchronisation.  But I fix bugs sometimes as well.

It would really help if people could record their ideas and suggestions in the 
bugzilla, possibly after discussion here on on the GPE list.  There are very 
few active developers currently (in particular, the guy who did most of the 
work on gpe-calendar has left the project) so new features are likely to wait 
a while.  On the other hand, there have been a couple of people expressing 
interest in contributing to the project in the last couple of months and 
maybe one of these ideas would be something they would like to pick up.

Graham
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Re: Decent PIM for the N8x0

[Ryan Pavlik]

Jonathan Markevich wrote:
> On Thu, May 1, 2008 at 5:04 PM, Ryan Pavlik <[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> > wrote:
>
>
> I have quite a few more suggestions for the calendar but I
> don't know where to send them either.
>
> Always look for a project's bug tracker instead of letting ideas
> or bugs fester - in this case, it's http://bugs.linuxtogo.org/
>  but that took me very little time on the good ol' google to find :D
>
>
> a) Oh boy another online registration!  And for Bugzilla!  Which is 
> more annoying, the missing features or the way of reporting them?  
> (trick question, bugzilla of course).
See previous threads, not gonna start this one again.
>
> "This is where we put in lots of nifty words explaining all about 
> Bugzilla." indeed.
/me rolls his eyes.
That would be the clever text that comes with Bugzilla.
>
> b) Ideas.  Not bugs.  Why a bug tracker...
It's really more of an issue tracker - if you registered you'd see 
there's a "Enhancement" priority.  In any case, it's a searchable, 
useable database rather than the freeform temporal storage that is email.
>
> c) This is n800 specific.  Does it go to Graham or upstream?  If 
> Graham gets an idea, can he implement it or does it go upstream?  Does 
> google tell me that?
Graham _is_ with upstream.  I'm pretty sure he gets notified on bugs, 
though I might be thinking of the opensync bug I filed.  To be honest, 
I'm not sure what you're trying to ask in this question. 
>
> Given those choices, I'd almost rather let the ideas fester.
>
It's a shame.

-- 
Ryan Pavlik
www.cleardefinition.com

#282  +  (442) -  [X]
A programmer started to cuss
Because getting to sleep was a fuss
As he lay there in bed
Looping 'round in his head
was: while(!asleep()) sheep++;

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Re: Decent PIM for the N8x0

[Jonathan Markevich]

On Thu, May 1, 2008 at 5:04 PM, Ryan Pavlik <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

>
> > I have quite a few more suggestions for the calendar but I don't know
> > where to send them either.
> >
> Always look for a project's bug tracker instead of letting ideas or bugs
> fester - in this case, it's http://bugs.linuxtogo.org/  but that took me
> very little time on the good ol' google to find :D
>
>
a) Oh boy another online registration!  And for Bugzilla!  Which is more
annoying, the missing features or the way of reporting them?  (trick
question, bugzilla of course).

"This is where we put in lots of nifty words explaining all about Bugzilla."
indeed.

b) Ideas.  Not bugs.  Why a bug tracker...

c) This is n800 specific.  Does it go to Graham or upstream?  If Graham gets
an idea, can he implement it or does it go upstream?  Does google tell me
that?

Given those choices, I'd almost rather let the ideas fester.
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Re: Decent PIM for the N8x0

[Ryan Pavlik]

>
> I have quite a few more suggestions for the calendar but I don't know 
> where to send them either.
Always look for a project's bug tracker instead of letting ideas or bugs 
fester - in this case, it's http://bugs.linuxtogo.org/  but that took me 
very little time on the good ol' google to find :D


Ryan

-- 
Ryan Pavlik
www.cleardefinition.com

#282  +  (442) -  [X]
A programmer started to cuss
Because getting to sleep was a fuss
As he lay there in bed
Looping 'round in his head
was: while(!asleep()) sheep++;

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Re: Decent PIM for the N8x0

[Larry Battraw]

On Thu, May 1, 2008 at 12:58 PM, Jonathan Markevich
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
 (snip)
> After that, it would be *nice to have* a few other things, but without them 
> it's still very workable.
>
> I have quite a few more suggestions for the calendar but I don't know where 
> to send them either.
>

Ditto!  I still can't believe how awkwardly the top line of Calendar
is formatted with the names of the days/months/years crushed together
on top of each other when there's a lot of free space to expand into.
I'd fix it if I had the slightest idea how the UI was put together
(Glade?).  Of all the bugs or features I've found this seems like the
simplest to fix and most glaring error.

I have a more general question for Maemo developers-- is there any way
short of writing/editing a rc2.d script to automatically start an
application upon restart/power on?  Without having Calendar started we
receive no alarms set within it.  It would be amazing if there was
some way to integrate the existing (humble but extremely robust) alarm
functionality in Maemo with GPE so the alarms would always go off and
alarms set in error (like the ones that go off a day after the real
alarm) would be more obvious since they could be seen in the Maemo
alarm list.

Larry
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Re: Decent PIM for the N8x0

[Jonathan Markevich]

On Thu, May 1, 2008 at 1:42 PM, <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

I've been playing with the todo list lately, I can probably work with it.
Wanted stuff below.


> What I do like about GPE is that it doesn't have a limit on the number
> of categories available (at least, not one I've encountered; I was
> always bumping against the 16-category limit on Palm).
>

And what's more, categories are more like tags; WAY more useful.  I can (for
example) have a category called shopping and a category called Staples so I
can filter just to Staples items when I'm there.  I can have the exact same
item tagged to filter to another store too.  They're not mutually exclusive
like the Palm has.

As far as I know, GPE stores its to-do list in a data base, which is (at
> least conceptually) an unordered set of records.  The kind of
> hand-rearranging I do is not really conceptually compatible with this.
>

Why not?  You can sort by any field in a database, so if there was a
"manual_sort" field it would work.

For this to be a successful task list on my n800 it needs 2 basic things:
1) (at least the option for) Finger-friendly checkboxes.  I don't like
Hildon checkboxes, and this 3-way one is microscopic!  I'd actually like to
see a focus-magnify thing like the Palm address book has.
2) Subtasks!

After that, it would be *nice to have* a few other things, but without them
it's still very workable.

I have quite a few more suggestions for the calendar but I don't know where
to send them either.
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Re: Decent PIM for the N8x0

[hendrik]

On Tue, Apr 29, 2008 at 04:39:31PM +0100, Graham Cobb wrote:
> On Tuesday 29 April 2008 15:18:01 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> > On Mon, Apr 28, 2008 at 08:40:30PM -0400, Gary Baribault wrote:
> > > I kind of wish that someone would start up an oposing PIM .. Any takers?
> > > 450$ to play Mahjong or Blocks seems a little steep!
> 
> I didn't start working on GPE because I thought it was a great project: I 
> started working on GPE because I had a need for a PIM on the Internet Tablet 
> and it seemed more sensible to start with an existing piece of software and 
> make improvements rather than create something from scratch.  
> 
> It doesn't seem likely to me that starting an opposing PIM would help.  There 
> are few enough people to work on one -- what would be achieved by trying to 
> work on two?  All of people's pet peeves with GPE (bugs, UI, features) could 
> be fixed if there were one or two more developers with time to make a 
> contribution.

I'm happy with the calendar, now that I've discovered the trick to using 
it -- make sure that "My calendar" is selected in the upper right 
corner.

It's the to-do list that gets me.  I come from a Palm environment.  No, 
the to-do list there was also useless.  What I found to work was the 
memo system.  Each memo was a to-do list item, and it would neatly 
display the first lines of all the to-do items.  What I could do there 
that I can't do with GPE or Palm's own to-do list was rearrange the 
order of items on the screen, just by dragging them around.  Once a week 
I'd look at the entire set and rearrange them, so that the ones I wanted 
to be particularly concerned with that week would be near the top of the 
list.  Setting numerical priorities just doesn't work as conveniently.

What I do like about GPE is that it doesn't have a limit on the number 
of categories available (at least, not one I've encountered; I was 
always bumping against the 16-category limit on Palm).

As far as I know, GPE stores its to-do list in a data base, which is (at 
least conceptually) an unordered set of records.  The kind of 
hand-rearranging I do is not really conceptually compatible with this.

> 
> > I've certainly considered it -- but first I want to put together a sync
> > mechanism that
> >   * doesn't care how many places you sync with,
> >   * doesn't care whether the places sync amongst each other.
> >   * provides syntactic guarantees about merged updates.
> > Such a sync mechanism I need for more things than an improved PIM.
> 
> Sync mechanisms are also something that seems to become much more complex 
> than 
> one expects when one starts.  I would encourage you to contribute to 
> improving OpenSync if possible, rather than start yet another project.  If 
> nothing else, there are people on the OpenSync list who have tackled many of 
> these problems and who may have useful advice.  It is another project where a 
> usable product is in sight but there are not enough developer-hours to get 
> there at the speed we would wish.

For just the todo-list and sync, I could probably improvise with a 
(possibly modified) text editor and a distrubited revision-control 
system like monotone. But none of these systems, as far as I know, merge 
changes very well when they involve reordering things.  Moving blocks of 
data tend to be treated as deletion and insertion.

But I agree.  Devising a complete sync mechanism just for a to-do list 
is overkill.

-- hendrik

> 
> Graham
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Re: Decent PIM for the N8x0

[hendrik]

On Tue, Apr 29, 2008 at 04:39:31PM +0100, Graham Cobb wrote:
> On Tuesday 29 April 2008 15:18:01 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> > On Mon, Apr 28, 2008 at 08:40:30PM -0400, Gary Baribault wrote:
> > > I kind of wish that someone would start up an oposing PIM .. Any takers?
> > > 450$ to play Mahjong or Blocks seems a little steep!
> 
> I didn't start working on GPE because I thought it was a great project: I 
> started working on GPE because I had a need for a PIM on the Internet Tablet 
> and it seemed more sensible to start with an existing piece of software and 
> make improvements rather than create something from scratch.  
> 
> It doesn't seem likely to me that starting an opposing PIM would help.  There 
> are few enough people to work on one -- what would be achieved by trying to 
> work on two?  All of people's pet peeves with GPE (bugs, UI, features) could 
> be fixed if there were one or two more developers with time to make a 
> contribution.
> 
> > I've certainly considered it -- but first I want to put together a sync
> > mechanism that
> >   * doesn't care how many places you sync with,
> >   * doesn't care whether the places sync amongst each other.
> >   * provides syntactic guarantees about merged updates.
> > Such a sync mechanism I need for more things than an improved PIM.
> 
> Sync mechanisms are also something that seems to become much more complex 
> than 
> one expects when one starts.  I would encourage you to contribute to 
> improving OpenSync if possible, rather than start yet another project.  If 
> nothing else, there are people on the OpenSync list who have tackled many of 
> these problems and who may have useful advice.  It is another project where a 
> usable product is in sight but there are not enough developer-hours to get 
> there at the speed we would wish.

I have other applications for sync than just a PIM.  I'm aware how 
massively complex it is.  It's the kind of thing the distributed 
versions systems tackle.  I've seen how they have struggled with it in 
monotone.  Except for the syntactic guarantees, they do a pretty good 
job.

Where, by the way, is the OpenSync list.  Is it mirrored on gmane?

-- hendrik
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Re: Decent PIM for the N8x0

[Mark]

On Tue, Apr 29, 2008 at 9:39 AM, Graham Cobb <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On Tuesday 29 April 2008 15:18:01 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>  > On Mon, Apr 28, 2008 at 08:40:30PM -0400, Gary Baribault wrote:
>
> > > I kind of wish that someone would start up an oposing PIM .. Any takers?
>  > > 450$ to play Mahjong or Blocks seems a little steep!
>
>  I didn't start working on GPE because I thought it was a great project: I
>  started working on GPE because I had a need for a PIM on the Internet Tablet
>  and it seemed more sensible to start with an existing piece of software and
>  make improvements rather than create something from scratch.
>
>  It doesn't seem likely to me that starting an opposing PIM would help.  There
>  are few enough people to work on one -- what would be achieved by trying to
>  work on two?  All of people's pet peeves with GPE (bugs, UI, features) could
>  be fixed if there were one or two more developers with time to make a
>  contribution.
>

I have to second this opinion. This is the problem with FOSS in
general - instead of solving the problems with an existing app (or
distro), people go off and start their own, thereby creating further
compatibility problems, increasing the amount of work done (and
duplicating a great deal of it) but greatly reducing overall progress.

Competition is only good when the competition is to solve existing
problems. When the competition is to create new ones, it's never good.
The idea that *any* competition is good is ignorant and misguided.
Constructive competition is competition that has structure and a
common direction. (Notice the common root word in "constructive" and
"structure"?)

"Progress" in opposite directions cancels out and *everybody* loses.

Mark
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Re: Decent PIM for the N8x0

[Graham Cobb]

On Tuesday 29 April 2008 15:18:01 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> On Mon, Apr 28, 2008 at 08:40:30PM -0400, Gary Baribault wrote:
> > I kind of wish that someone would start up an oposing PIM .. Any takers?
> > 450$ to play Mahjong or Blocks seems a little steep!

I didn't start working on GPE because I thought it was a great project: I 
started working on GPE because I had a need for a PIM on the Internet Tablet 
and it seemed more sensible to start with an existing piece of software and 
make improvements rather than create something from scratch.  

It doesn't seem likely to me that starting an opposing PIM would help.  There 
are few enough people to work on one -- what would be achieved by trying to 
work on two?  All of people's pet peeves with GPE (bugs, UI, features) could 
be fixed if there were one or two more developers with time to make a 
contribution.

> I've certainly considered it -- but first I want to put together a sync
> mechanism that
>   * doesn't care how many places you sync with,
>   * doesn't care whether the places sync amongst each other.
>   * provides syntactic guarantees about merged updates.
> Such a sync mechanism I need for more things than an improved PIM.

Sync mechanisms are also something that seems to become much more complex than 
one expects when one starts.  I would encourage you to contribute to 
improving OpenSync if possible, rather than start yet another project.  If 
nothing else, there are people on the OpenSync list who have tackled many of 
these problems and who may have useful advice.  It is another project where a 
usable product is in sight but there are not enough developer-hours to get 
there at the speed we would wish.

Graham
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Re: Decent PIM for the N8x0

[hendrik]

On Mon, Apr 28, 2008 at 08:40:30PM -0400, Gary Baribault wrote:
> Hi all,
> 
> I must say that I'm disapointed, I've had a Palm 3x, two Palm 5s, an 
> Windows CE device and I was very happy to finally have a Linux based box 
> .. I don't know Debian, but linux is linux right?
> 
> So why can't we get a decent calendar and Contact manager? I've worked 
> with Glen on the Celendar and I'm convinced that he's working hard, but 
> what I need is quite simple ... I'm a good Christian boy, and every 
> Friday night, Sunday morning and Sunday night I have an assembly, every 
> Monday and Wednesday afternoon I teach an English course (I'm a French 
> Canadian boy). I get up every morning at 5:45 AM and I've programmed all 
> of that in the N800 (2008 OS) .. The software is right up to date, and 
> never fails to warn me .. on time every time .. the problem is that it 
> usually also warns me 60, 75, 90 and 120 minutes after the apointments 
> .. not in a consistent fashion but just randomly every now and again .. 
> you would think that it would be possible to get an alarm to work right? 
> It is April 2008 .. (sorry Graham, as I said I know youre working hard). 
> The fact of it is that I would go back to my Palm or CE, but I HATE 
> giving up on a good Linux box ..
> 
> I kind of wish that someone would start up an oposing PIM .. Any takers? 
> 450$ to play Mahjong or Blocks seems a little steep!

I've certainly considered it -- but first I want to put together a sync 
mechanism that
  * doesn't care how many places you sync with,
  * doesn't care whether the places sync amongst each other.
  * provides syntactic guarantees about merged updates.
Such a sync mechanism I need for more things than an improved PIM.


What I most miss in GPE is a to-do list that lets me order the 
items myself, perhaps by dragging them up and down the list.  I could do 
that on the Palm if I used their memo tool as a to-do list.  I 
completely ignored the official to-do list on the Palm.

-- hendrik
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Re: Decent PIM for the N8x0

[Barry Freeman]

--On 29 April 2008 09:08 -0400 Gary Baribault <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> I remember a long time ago using a piece of software called Time&Chaos

Gawd, I remember that one.. very good... also, how about Above&Beyond? That 
was very innovative at the time..



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Re: Decent PIM for the N8x0

[Gary Baribault]

I remember a long time ago using a piece of software called Time&Chaos 
.. it still exists, but they have no intention of making a Linux 
version, I've asked many times .. The alarms only go off once, you can 
start the week on Sunday or Monday, you can link a contact or many 
contacts to a calendar event, you can create all the categories you want 
and share them between TODO, Events, Contacts etc .. you can do searches 
on just about anything. but most of all, it just works!

One other thing I would like is to be able to import my 600+ contacts 
that I exported from my CE to Outlook and then exported from there to a 
VCard file.

BTW, my Calendar work me up at 5:45 AM this morning as expected and so 
far has also gone off for the same event at 8:05 this morning ..

And I'm not knocking the efforts Graham is making either, he tried real 
hard to solve all of this about 6 months ago when I brought it up to him.

Gary B

Jonathan Markevich wrote:
> On Mon, Apr 28, 2008 at 9:40 PM, Gary Baribault <[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> > wrote:
>
> So why can't we get a decent calendar and Contact manager? I've worked
>
>
> I don't mind the GPE contact manager, it lets me get at contacts 
> fairly quickly.  Entering them is quite frustrating, but I think a few 
> bug fixes can remedy that.  Maybe even just a first name and last name 
> field would be enough!
>  
> I find I can't leave GPE calendar running though, it tends to eat my 
> battery overnight.  It's farther off from what we want anyway... I 
> wonder, is it that hard to show the week starting on Sunday, like the 
> popdown calendars do?
>  
>
> I kind of wish that someone would start up an oposing PIM .. Any
> takers?
> 450$ to play Mahjong or Blocks seems a little steep!
>
>
> I know, it frustrates me and quite a few others too.  I wonder if we 
> could start a wishlist and maybe even a bounty?  We all know 
> developers scratch their own itch, but give them some specific 
> requirements and ideas and who knows?
>
> Where would we put this?  Forward it to Thoughtfix?  The ITT wiki?  On 
> here?  Do we request these things from GPE or OpenedHand?
>
> Graham, I'd like to know a couple of things; 1) are you getting 
> specific, practical requests from people and 2) is it even possible to 
> push these upstream - or are you kinda stuck being a porter only?
>
> Thanks for your work.
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Re: Decent PIM for the N8x0

[Erik Hovland]

On Mon, Apr 28, 2008 at 08:40:30PM -0400, Gary Baribault wrote:
> I kind of wish that someone would start up an oposing PIM .. Any takers? 

An opposing PIM? Maybe not. But there is pimlico:
http://pimlico-project.org/

I have to admit that after trying both, GPE is way farther along.

E

-- 
Erik Hovland
mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
web: http://hovland.org/
PGP/GPG public key available on request

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Re: Decent PIM for the N8x0

[Scott Carr]

Jerry Van Baren wrote:
> MoRpHeUz wrote:
>   
>> Hi,
>>
>> On Mon, Apr 28, 2008 at 9:40 PM, Gary Baribault <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> 
>>>  never fails to warn me .. on time every time .. the problem is that it
>>>  usually also warns me 60, 75, 90 and 120 minutes after the apointments
>>>  .. not in a consistent fashion but just randomly every now and again ..
>>>   
>>   I know that we lack PIM applications but this "random warnings"
>> could be because you "snooze" the alarm, and dont actually stop it.
>>
>> BR,
>> 
>
> GPE calendar alarms have spurious alarms for me too.  It's really weird. 
>   I didn't correlate it to actual delta times, I'll have to pay more 
> attention to that.
>
> Best regards,
> gvb
I'll have to add my + to this as well.  I have seen the alarms go off at
various times during a 24 hour period after the alarm. 

The alarm was at 3:30pm, I know I hit dismiss all.  The alarm went off
again at 5:00am the next morning.  My wife accused me of setting it at
that time.  (She usually gets up at 6:15am and I usually get up around
7:30am)

I have found that the better alarm is actually the alarm built in to
N810.  It even will start the device if it is turned off, I believe.

The only problems are there is not enough room for notes, or a location,
and no calendar view.

-- 
Scott Carr
OpenOffice.org
Documenation Co-Lead

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Re: Decent PIM for the N8x0

[Jerry Van Baren]

MoRpHeUz wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> On Mon, Apr 28, 2008 at 9:40 PM, Gary Baribault <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>  never fails to warn me .. on time every time .. the problem is that it
>>  usually also warns me 60, 75, 90 and 120 minutes after the apointments
>>  .. not in a consistent fashion but just randomly every now and again ..
> 
>   I know that we lack PIM applications but this "random warnings"
> could be because you "snooze" the alarm, and dont actually stop it.
> 
> BR,

GPE calendar alarms have spurious alarms for me too.  It's really weird. 
  I didn't correlate it to actual delta times, I'll have to pay more 
attention to that.

Best regards,
gvb
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Re: Decent PIM for the N8x0

[Gary Baribault]

I don't snooze .. I'm crazy but not stupid .. I do know the difference 
.. I've worked with Glen on these bugs and this is quite a bit more 
complex ..

Gary B



MoRpHeUz wrote:
> Hi,
>
> On Mon, Apr 28, 2008 at 9:40 PM, Gary Baribault <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>   
>>  never fails to warn me .. on time every time .. the problem is that it
>>  usually also warns me 60, 75, 90 and 120 minutes after the apointments
>>  .. not in a consistent fashion but just randomly every now and again ..
>> 
>
>   I know that we lack PIM applications but this "random warnings"
> could be because you "snooze" the alarm, and dont actually stop it.
>
> BR,
>
>
>   
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Re: Decent PIM for the N8x0

[MoRpHeUz]

Hi,

On Mon, Apr 28, 2008 at 9:40 PM, Gary Baribault <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>  never fails to warn me .. on time every time .. the problem is that it
>  usually also warns me 60, 75, 90 and 120 minutes after the apointments
>  .. not in a consistent fashion but just randomly every now and again ..

  I know that we lack PIM applications but this "random warnings"
could be because you "snooze" the alarm, and dont actually stop it.

BR,


-- 
---
Blog: http://labs.morpheuz.eng.br/blog/
PGP: 0xDBEEAAC3 @ wwwkeys.pgp.net
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Decent PIM for the N8x0

[Gary Baribault]

Hi all,

I must say that I'm disapointed, I've had a Palm 3x, two Palm 5s, an 
Windows CE device and I was very happy to finally have a Linux based box 
.. I don't know Debian, but linux is linux right?

So why can't we get a decent calendar and Contact manager? I've worked 
with Glen on the Celendar and I'm convinced that he's working hard, but 
what I need is quite simple ... I'm a good Christian boy, and every 
Friday night, Sunday morning and Sunday night I have an assembly, every 
Monday and Wednesday afternoon I teach an English course (I'm a French 
Canadian boy). I get up every morning at 5:45 AM and I've programmed all 
of that in the N800 (2008 OS) .. The software is right up to date, and 
never fails to warn me .. on time every time .. the problem is that it 
usually also warns me 60, 75, 90 and 120 minutes after the apointments 
.. not in a consistent fashion but just randomly every now and again .. 
you would think that it would be possible to get an alarm to work right? 
It is April 2008 .. (sorry Graham, as I said I know youre working hard). 
The fact of it is that I would go back to my Palm or CE, but I HATE 
giving up on a good Linux box ..

I kind of wish that someone would start up an oposing PIM .. Any takers? 
450$ to play Mahjong or Blocks seems a little steep!

Gary B
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