Re: [Mageia-dev] Non-free firmwares in installer
On 03/26/2011 08:58 PM, Tux99 wrote: And why should all of us suffer the hassle of a DVD + a CD (how would that work for all those that use USB-sticks, do they now need two sticks? I guess you must have missed the six or so times I stated that I don't give a rat's whatever about whether there's one ISO or two. Personally, I'd say go with one, and if there's a space issue, go to a DL. But that's a flame war for some other day.
Re: [Mageia-dev] Non-free firmwares in installer
Quote: Frank Griffin wrote on Sun, 27 March 2011 15:03 On 03/26/2011 08:58 PM, Tux99 wrote: And why should all of us suffer the hassle of a DVD + a CD (how would that work for all those that use USB-sticks, do they now need two sticks? I guess you must have missed the six or so times I stated that I don't give a rat's whatever about whether there's one ISO or two. Personally, I'd say go with one, and if there's a space issue, go to a DL. But that's a flame war for some other day. No flame war, but since you were using colourful expressions such as bending over backwards I just wanted to point out that that's even more so the case with a separate firmware CD to please the more extreme free software fanatics. -- Mageia ML Forum Gateway: http://mageia.linuxtech.net/forum/
Re: [Mageia-dev] Non-free firmwares in installer
2011/3/27 Tux99 tux99-...@uridium.org: And why should all of us suffer the hassle of a DVD + a CD (how would that work for all those that use USB-sticks, do they now need two sticks? And do you expect magazines to include a DVD+CD to please Mageia? What about all the extra waste and pollution cause by dual media?) just to please the few ultra-orthodox free software fanatics that seemingly would get allergic reactions if the main media contained some non-free code (even if it's only installed upon an informed choice of the user)? Do you really think it will help to find a consent calling people who do not share your opinion ultra-orthodox software fanatics? Makes me wonder who is the real fanatic here. Oh, BTW: why do you say the few? May be you have some figures to prove which opinion has more followers? -- wobo
Re: [Mageia-dev] Non-free firmwares in installer
On Sun, 27 Mar 2011 17:11:07 +0200 Wolfgang Bornath molc...@googlemail.com wrote: 2011/3/27 Tux99 tux99-...@uridium.org: And why should all of us suffer the hassle of a DVD + a CD (how would that work for all those that use USB-sticks, do they now need two sticks? And do you expect magazines to include a DVD+CD to please Mageia? What about all the extra waste and pollution cause by dual media?) just to please the few ultra-orthodox free software fanatics that seemingly would get allergic reactions if the main media contained some non-free code (even if it's only installed upon an informed choice of the user)? Do you really think it will help to find a consent calling people who do not share your opinion ultra-orthodox software fanatics? Makes me wonder who is the real fanatic here. Oh, BTW: why do you say the few? May be you have some figures to prove which opinion has more followers? I don't know, but GNewSense's popularity (or lack thereof) would be a start. Regards Antoine.
Re: [Mageia-dev] Non-free firmwares in installer
Wolfgang Bornath molc...@googlemail.com schrieb am 27.03.2011 2011/3/27 Tux99 tux99-...@uridium.org: And why should all of us suffer the hassle of a DVD + a CD (how would that work for all those that use USB-sticks, do they now need two sticks? And do you expect magazines to include a DVD+CD to please Mageia? What about all the extra waste and pollution cause by dual media?) just to please the few ultra-orthodox free software fanatics that seemingly would get allergic reactions if the main media contained some non-free code (even if it's only installed upon an informed choice of the user)? Do you really think it will help to find a consent calling people who do not share your opinion ultra-orthodox software fanatics? Makes me wonder who is the real fanatic here. Oh, BTW: why do you say the few? May be you have some figures to prove which opinion has more followers? By the way: I know, Debian are just a small group of ultra-orthodox software fanatics, but that's exactly, what they are doing... But I admit: Debian is not really caring about newcomers... Oliver -- Oliver aka obgr_seneca substitute leader - i18n team substitute leader - web team http://www.mageia.org/ - Mageia, the magic continues
Re: [Mageia-dev] Non-free firmwares in installer
Quote: Wolfgang Bornath wrote on Sun, 27 March 2011 17:11 Do you really think it will help to find a consent calling people who do not share your opinion ultra-orthodox software fanatics? Why? An 'orthodox' is a person who follows his beliefs very very strictly, 'fanatic' has a similar meaning (yeah I know those two words are sort of redundant but I just wanted to express how extreme the view appears). There is no negative connotation, in fact most 'fans' (=fanatics) or people with 'orthodox' beliefs are proud of it. Ultimately it was just a way of expressing how extreme I consider the idea that free and non-free software on the same physical media would be unacceptable to them, even if the installation procedure clearly asks the user whether to install the non-free software or not. -- Mageia ML Forum Gateway: http://mageia.linuxtech.net/forum/
Re: [Mageia-dev] Non-free firmwares in installer
2011/3/27 Tux99 tux99-...@uridium.org: Quote: Wolfgang Bornath wrote on Sun, 27 March 2011 17:11 Do you really think it will help to find a consent calling people who do not share your opinion ultra-orthodox software fanatics? Why? An 'orthodox' is a person who follows his beliefs very very strictly, 'fanatic' has a similar meaning (yeah I know those two words are sort of redundant but I just wanted to express how extreme the view appears). Orthodox is neither positive nor negative, correct, it's just a description of a certain opinion. But ultra makes it as unacceptable as fanatic, which means sticking to a certain opinion without seeking any consent with others. Ultimately it was just a way of expressing how extreme I consider the idea that free and non-free software on the same physical media would be unacceptable to them, even if the installation procedure clearly asks the user whether to install the non-free software or not. Ok, so I can call you a ultra-non-orthodox fanatic by your definition? No problem. -- wobo
Re: [Mageia-dev] Non-free firmwares in installer
Quote: Oliver Burger wrote on Sun, 27 March 2011 17:40 By the way: I know, Debian are just a small group of ultra-orthodox software fanatics, but that's exactly, what they are doing... I'm aware that Debian does this now. While I don't think that all (or even most) Debian supporters are ultra-orthodox free-software fanatics I certainly believe the core that made that decision is. You should have added that that decision was quite controversial in the Debian community. But Debian is such an 'institution' that they can afford to go against the mainstream, I don't think Mageia can afford that, certainly not at this stage. (and personally I don't see the point) -- Mageia ML Forum Gateway: http://mageia.linuxtech.net/forum/
Re: [Mageia-dev] Non-free firmwares in installer
Frank Griffin a écrit : On 03/26/2011 06:37 PM, Maarten Vanraes wrote: During the times mandriva had several CDs to install it, the new ones often only dl'ed one and complained when stuff didn't work. I forsee possibly here the same issue with this, people will forget to download the extra non_free CD, or do not care about non_free; wipe their windows, install mageia, and have no networking to even get drivers anymore. how would we advertise this anyway? this extra CD contains non_free software, but if you have an machine with networking from vendor X with types Y,Z,... you will absolutely need this to have functional networking? it sounds to me like an awful lot of extra work, and complaints, etc... Well, then, maybe what we need to do is say that both ISOs, the 4.7GB primary and the 60 MB(?) secondary ar both required, and let the people who don't need the second one be pleasantly surprised. Wouldn't it be better that new users be pleasantly surprised by a system that installs nicely from a single DVD, and all the hardware just works ? If we want to avoid the situation where people are dissatisfied because the DVD they install produces a Mageia system where the hardware doesn't work properly, we have to provide a single DVD that is complete, in terms of hardware drivers. Such cases will produce a lot of negative reaction to Mageia among many users. Saying that users should install with 2 ISOs may sound great, but many will forget the secondary ISO. Why would they expect to need it ? And why would they want the hassle of a second ISO, when one is a DVD ? A much simpler, ergonomic solution is make space (you suggest 60 M) on the DVD for the necessary drivers. (That might mean removing 1 or 2 packages that few users would want anyway.) At least we will have a product much less likely to give a negative reaction. Let's face it. The DVD will contain proprietary firmware/drivers anyway, so why not include all that is necessary for a properly running system ? Excluding these drivers just ensures that we will have the reputation of not supporting all hardware. If the community _really_ wants to produce a totally free DVD, it should be called free for experts accompanied with a drivers for free for experts CD. Of course this DVD will have to have a special kernel, compiled without proprietory firmware/drivers. Otherwise it is just an exercice in hypocracy. But that is another question. Then we could call the normal DVD free with proprietory drivers. Of course this normal DVD would only include such proprietory drivers where there is not a reliable open source equivalent available. We could consider this a sort of as free as possible in practice for a fully working system, in terms of hardware. (If we go for the alternate DVD solution, the easiest way is to produce the normal DVD with all the drivers, and just exclude the proprietory drivers on the other, putting them on the CD. But such as DVD would't be totally free.) BTW, the Mandriva free DVD lacks some necessary drivers, which is really a hassle if one doesn't have internet access during install, even for advanced Mandriva Linux users. -- André
Re: [Mageia-dev] Non-free firmwares in installer
Frank Griffin a écrit : On 03/26/2011 08:58 PM, Tux99 wrote: And why should all of us suffer the hassle of a DVD + a CD (how would that work for all those that use USB-sticks, do they now need two sticks? I guess you must have missed the six or so times I stated that I don't give a rat's whatever about whether there's one ISO or two. Personally, I'd say go with one, and if there's a space issue, go to a DL. But that's a flame war for some other day. Good ! That is exactly our point. We _care_ if there is more than 1 ISO for the basic install. And it doesn't in any way detract from the purist's right to think that they are only installing free software. (Given that even the Linux kernel has non-free components.) -- André
Re: [Mageia-dev] Non-free firmwares in installer
On 03/27/2011 06:33 PM, andre999 wrote: Frank Griffin a écrit : On 03/26/2011 06:37 PM, Maarten Vanraes wrote: During the times mandriva had several CDs to install it, the new ones often only dl'ed one and complained when stuff didn't work. I forsee possibly here the same issue with this, people will forget to download the extra non_free CD, or do not care about non_free; wipe their windows, install mageia, and have no networking to even get drivers anymore. how would we advertise this anyway? this extra CD contains non_free software, but if you have an machine with networking from vendor X with types Y,Z,... you will absolutely need this to have functional networking? it sounds to me like an awful lot of extra work, and complaints, etc... Well, then, maybe what we need to do is say that both ISOs, the 4.7GB primary and the 60 MB(?) secondary ar both required, and let the people who don't need the second one be pleasantly surprised. Wouldn't it be better that new users be pleasantly surprised by a system that installs nicely from a single DVD, and all the hardware just works ? If we want to avoid the situation where people are dissatisfied because the DVD they install produces a Mageia system where the hardware doesn't work properly, we have to provide a single DVD that is complete, in terms of hardware drivers. Please have this conversation with someone who wants to insist on having two ISOs. All I've said is that I see no reason why having two ISOs is a particular burden on new users, not that I think it's the way to go. You can wave the flag all you want about how the poor users would have a better install experience with a single ISO, but you haven't quantified your argument and I don't care enough about the issue to do so. I don't consider myself an expert on the reactions of newbies, and given that you're on this mailing list, I don't see any reason to consider you to be such an expert. If you want to present your bona fides, please do so to the marketing group who will presumably decide what any single or primary ISO should or should not contain. I'll say again that I don't care where the additional files come from as long as the install takes notice of them if they are there.
Re: [Mageia-dev] Non-free firmwares in installer
On Fri, Mar 25, 2011 at 09:33:04AM +0100, Tux99 wrote: Quote: andr55 wrote on Fri, 25 March 2011 01:29 My though was essentially that firmware is so close to hardware that its actual free/non-free status shouldn't apply - we should treat it like (almost) part of the hardware. I agree with that. After all nobody (apart from R. Stallmann) questions the fact that the BIOS of their PC is non-free or all the other firmware or microcode on various chips on the motherboard and on expansion cards and peripherals. In fact, this bother a lot of people : People who write coreboot for example ( http://www.coreboot.org ). The project started because someone wanted to be sure that his cluster didn't have bios problem. It is a daunting task to hit any key on 1000 servers, especially if none of them have a keyboard. People who just want to know how the pc work, for example, students in low level system. Lack of source doesn't really help to understand and learn, at least for the average people. People who maybe want to understand why the driver they wrote broke with firmware update ( happened on some Apple laptop because apple updated something that broke video driver on linux ). Or why it work with some card and not some other, since they have a different firmware. People who wonder if their TPM chips is really under their control or not. Maybe a bunch of loonies. Maybe they are just ex sony customers screwed by their vendor, or people who had 1984 on their Kindle before Amazon removed it. Or simply people that want to know what was fixed for their hardware. ( https://admin.fedoraproject.org/updates/F14/FEDORA-2010-18594 ). Or just want to avoid security issues ( https://events.ccc.de/congress/2010/Fahrplan/track/Hacking/4174.en.html ). Or avoid waiting 5 minutes delay when booting a server for likely no good reason. Or people that have trouble because the lack of free software in their area prevent them from doing their work as security researcher, as demonstrated by the project Osmocombb ( http://bb.osmocom.org/trac/ ). But, yes maybe if we remove some security researchers, some cluster admins, some people that would prefer to not be screwed by vendor, some kernel developpers, some impatient sysadmins, some students, some coders and RMS, there is no one who question it. -- Michael Scherer
Re: [Mageia-dev] Non-free firmwares in installer
Op zaterdag 26 maart 2011 13:19:10 schreef Michael scherer: On Fri, Mar 25, 2011 at 09:33:04AM +0100, Tux99 wrote: Quote: andr55 wrote on Fri, 25 March 2011 01:29 My though was essentially that firmware is so close to hardware that its actual free/non-free status shouldn't apply - we should treat it like (almost) part of the hardware. I agree with that. After all nobody (apart from R. Stallmann) questions the fact that the BIOS of their PC is non-free or all the other firmware or microcode on various chips on the motherboard and on expansion cards and peripherals. In fact, this bother a lot of people : People who write coreboot for example ( http://www.coreboot.org ). The project started because someone wanted to be sure that his cluster didn't have bios problem. It is a daunting task to hit any key on 1000 servers, especially if none of them have a keyboard. People who just want to know how the pc work, for example, students in low level system. Lack of source doesn't really help to understand and learn, at least for the average people. People who maybe want to understand why the driver they wrote broke with firmware update ( happened on some Apple laptop because apple updated something that broke video driver on linux ). Or why it work with some card and not some other, since they have a different firmware. People who wonder if their TPM chips is really under their control or not. Maybe a bunch of loonies. Maybe they are just ex sony customers screwed by their vendor, or people who had 1984 on their Kindle before Amazon removed it. Or simply people that want to know what was fixed for their hardware. ( https://admin.fedoraproject.org/updates/F14/FEDORA-2010-18594 ). Or just want to avoid security issues ( https://events.ccc.de/congress/2010/Fahrplan/track/Hacking/4174.en.html ). Or avoid waiting 5 minutes delay when booting a server for likely no good reason. Or people that have trouble because the lack of free software in their area prevent them from doing their work as security researcher, as demonstrated by the project Osmocombb ( http://bb.osmocom.org/trac/ ). But, yes maybe if we remove some security researchers, some cluster admins, some people that would prefer to not be screwed by vendor, some kernel developpers, some impatient sysadmins, some students, some coders and RMS, there is no one who question it. i agree that free software is important, but if it's a blob without released source code but with BSD license, i really don't see the problem. perhaps someone could just ask the people who licensed it, for the source code...? but this is a thing to do for FSF, not mageia. that is my point. it doesn't mean i don't agree with what those people are doing, they should release it with it. But that still doesn't make it the job of Mageia to fix that.
Re: [Mageia-dev] Non-free firmwares in installer
On 24.03.2011 22:27, Romain d'Alverny wrote: On Thu, Mar 24, 2011 at 20:08, Anssi Hannula anssi.hann...@iki.fi wrote: On 24.03.2011 19:35, Romain d'Alverny wrote: Summary (from http://mageia.org/wiki/doku.php?id=licensing_policy): * core: stuff that is not Free/Open Source according to OSI/FSF does not belong here. Not even closed-source stuff that we can redistribute. So if there is at this time, that's something to fix. Most of files in kernel-firmware (which is in core) are not OSI/FSF free (approximate list from 2010 [1]). There was a short thread about that [2] where I asked the question if they should be moved to non-free due to them not being OSI/FSF free, and tmb agreed, while pterjan disagreed (saying BSD without source code (where a portion of the firmware files in question fall) is eligible for core). [1] http://lists.mandriva.com/cooker/2010-01/msg00525.php [2] https://mageia.org/pipermail/mageia-dev/20110115/002172.html Ah right, sorry for overlooking this. So what do we do? amend core inclusion definition for that? or move these to nonfree? (and at what cost?) I don't really have a strong preference here, as long as 1) it is consistent, and 2) users are happy (e.g. no situation where even the free radeon driver doesn't work with any ISO) topic for next Council meeting to decide? Probably. would you like to write a summary for this in http://mageia.org/wiki/doku.php?id=meeting:council_notes_2011_03_28#open_questions ? OK, seems I was late, sorry. The summary looks good. -- Anssi Hannula
Re: [Mageia-dev] Non-free firmwares in installer
Anssi Hannula anssi.hann...@iki.fi schrieb am 26.03.2011 I don't really have a strong preference here, as long as 1) it is consistent, and 2) users are happy (e.g. no situation where even the free radeon driver doesn't work with any ISO) Couldn't we have the following: - Live CDs (like Mandriva One, including proprietary stuff) (live cds are planned, aren't they? - A purely free, libre and open source installer dvd - An addon cd for the installer dvd containing the firmware, drivers and stuff? I know, if we have those One-like live cds, we don't really need the last one, but I'm quite sure, there are more people than me out here, who prefer a normal installer iso over a live cd... Oliver
Re: [Mageia-dev] Non-free firmwares in installer
Op zaterdag 26 maart 2011 23:15:22 schreef Oliver Burger: Anssi Hannula anssi.hann...@iki.fi schrieb am 26.03.2011 I don't really have a strong preference here, as long as 1) it is consistent, and 2) users are happy (e.g. no situation where even the free radeon driver doesn't work with any ISO) Couldn't we have the following: - Live CDs (like Mandriva One, including proprietary stuff) (live cds are planned, aren't they? - A purely free, libre and open source installer dvd - An addon cd for the installer dvd containing the firmware, drivers and stuff? I know, if we have those One-like live cds, we don't really need the last one, but I'm quite sure, there are more people than me out here, who prefer a normal installer iso over a live cd... Oliver During the times mandriva had several CDs to install it, the new ones often only dl'ed one and complained when stuff didn't work. I forsee possibly here the same issue with this, people will forget to download the extra non_free CD, or do not care about non_free; wipe their windows, install mageia, and have no networking to even get drivers anymore. how would we advertise this anyway? this extra CD contains non_free software, but if you have an machine with networking from vendor X with types Y,Z,... you will absolutely need this to have functional networking? it sounds to me like an awful lot of extra work, and complaints, etc... but, maybe every new person uses liveCDs to install, i never did, so i wouldn't know. pfff, this is really a difficult topic...
Re: [Mageia-dev] Non-free firmwares in installer
On 03/26/2011 01:11 AM, andre999 wrote: Frank Griffin a écrit : From what you say, there are not a lot of points of disagreement between us, on this issue. We both have contributed to open source for a long time, you apparently mostly on developement/packaging, myself mostly translating/ aide in forums, with some contributions to development. (Currently an apprentice packager.) You find 2 isos a minor inconvenience, but in practice normally install online, from cooker/cauldron. Actually, what I wrote was that I hadn't used ISOs since I discovered cooker. I used them before that for many years (since about MDV 7.2), In fact, in the mkcd days, I used to burn all 9 of the 650-700MB CDs needed to contain the full package set. Myself, I find a single DVD that contains everything I need to get a fully working system (in terms of hardware/drivers) a major convenience, and do not have the luxury of the bandwidth necessary to install from the internet. I don't know if you have ever installed from Mandriva's 3-cd set, but juggling 3 cds on installing a package is a hassle that I very much prefer to avoid. One iso is great. Given the state of current technology, if you don't have the bandwidth to do network installs, then you are understandably at the low end of the marketing curve, and pretty much have to take what you can find. Don't get me wrong, I've been there. I've been an OS/2 enthusiast for years (actually, decades now), and I know what it is to be on the short end of the supply curve. And for about a year in 2003, the town I moved to had no broadband, and I maintained my cooker tree via dialup (god help us all). Through all this, my mindset was that I chose or had had imposed upon me these restrictions. I bore my Windows friends no animus for the fact that I had to jump through hoops to either find equivalent apps or run theirs under emulation in order to interact with others in my office. I did what I had to do in order to run the system I wanted to run, and I assure you that juggling a few disks during the install would have been the least of my worries. For you to complain that because you have minimal network access, the rest of the Mageia community should bend over backwards to avoid your having to swap a few CDs during install is a pretty hollow argument, in my opinion. As well, I appreciate very much the ability to do a complete, fully working reinstall without internet access. (To facilitate this, I keep packages installed from sources other than the DVD in a separate partition.) The single DVD is not only useful for myself. It is handy to promote Linux as well. Unfortunately, with missing firmware and drivers, the DVD will not fully work on many systems. And new users prefer a _single_ iso that just works. Having to juggle isos is a deterant. I'm sorry, but I don't accept this argument. It hasn't been so long since Windows installed from multiple floppies. I would accept that a new user who had been given the impression that the single DVD was all he needed would be annoyed if he found that the resulting system didn't work, but if it is shoved in the user's face that the second ISO is needed, I very much doubt that even a new user would try to install from the one ISO and complain about it. On the question of space on the DVD, you must admit that all the (non-free) firmware and drivers (not already included) would not take an enormous amount of space. And therefore, downloading an ISO for them could be done under dialup, or even two tin cans and a string. Note that on the Mandriva 2010.2 DVD, for example, the 2 biggest games take about 100 M and 40 M repectively. It is simply a matter of priorities. This is a completely separate topic. I tried to avoid it, because every time it surfaces in the cooker ML it results in a flame war between countless parties all jockeying to get their favorite app on the single DVD. If you want to jump into this, feel free, but not with me. I don't care what is or isn't on the primary ISO. In sum, it is easy to understand your point of view, as you don't (normally) use isos. Please understand the point of view of those who do, particularly those who have serious bandwidth restrictions. I do understand your point of view, but I don't espouse it to the point of saying that Mageia should trim its primary DVD or shuffle its contents just to save people with limited bandwidth having to juggle a few disks during an install.
Re: [Mageia-dev] Non-free firmwares in installer
On 03/26/2011 06:37 PM, Maarten Vanraes wrote: During the times mandriva had several CDs to install it, the new ones often only dl'ed one and complained when stuff didn't work. I forsee possibly here the same issue with this, people will forget to download the extra non_free CD, or do not care about non_free; wipe their windows, install mageia, and have no networking to even get drivers anymore. how would we advertise this anyway? this extra CD contains non_free software, but if you have an machine with networking from vendor X with types Y,Z,... you will absolutely need this to have functional networking? it sounds to me like an awful lot of extra work, and complaints, etc... Well, then, maybe what we need to do is say that both ISOs, the 4.7GB primary and the 60 MB(?) secondary ar both required, and let the people who don't need the second one be pleasantly surprised.
Re: [Mageia-dev] Non-free firmwares in installer
Quote: Frank Griffin wrote on Sun, 27 March 2011 00:34 For you to complain that because you have minimal network access, the rest of the Mageia community should bend over backwards to avoid your having to swap a few CDs during install is a pretty hollow argument, in my opinion. And why should all of us suffer the hassle of a DVD + a CD (how would that work for all those that use USB-sticks, do they now need two sticks? And do you expect magazines to include a DVD+CD to please Mageia? What about all the extra waste and pollution cause by dual media?) just to please the few ultra-orthodox free software fanatics that seemingly would get allergic reactions if the main media contained some non-free code (even if it's only installed upon an informed choice of the user)? Putting the non-free firmware on the main DVD should be a no brainer, since a clear install option is all that's needed to keep the systems of free software fanatics pure. -- Mageia ML Forum Gateway: http://mageia.linuxtech.net/forum/
Re: [Mageia-dev] Non-free firmwares in installer
On Fri, 25 Mar 2011 03:17:27 -0400, Buchan Milne bgmi...@staff.telkomsa.net wrote: But, that is *your* view. IMHO, some of these questions should be posed to the community. My opinion, is that the there must be an iso that includes everything needed to install a basic system, and get updates or other software. If the network will not be accessible without jumping through hoops, then the distro will devolve into one only used by people willing to jump through those hoops. I doubt most people are willing. If the network cannot be accessed after (or while) installing the system, without jumping through hoops, who is going to bother trying to use it? Put the non-free (should be renamed to closed-source, or something more explanatory) in a separate directory on the iso, and give the installer the choice of using it. Whether or not the default should be to include it or not is open for discussion. In My opinion, it should be an opt-out, not an opt-in. Regards, Dave Hodgins
Re: [Mageia-dev] Non-free firmwares in installer
- andre999 and...@laposte.net wrote: Wolfgang Bornath a écrit : 2011/3/24 Olivier Blinmag...@blino.org: Thorsten van Liltv...@gmx.de writes: Am 24.03.2011 09:57, schrieb Wolfgang Bornath: 2011/3/24 Ahmad Samirahmadsamir3...@gmail.com: On 24 March 2011 02:58, Dexter Morgandmorga...@gmail.com wrote: On Thu, Mar 24, 2011 at 1:38 AM, Ahmad Samirahmadsamir3...@gmail.comwrote: Has the Free DVD in Mandriva ever contained non-free firmware? No, but the question is more , will we provide a non free dvd iso, and this question is i think interesting. A possible solution for people with such a setup could be a non-free driver cd ISO which they could include in the installation process. What about a DVD including non-free packages but has the option to not install them? I think the majority of the users don't care that much about proprietary issues, they just need them for using there wireless card or graphic card. Those how do care can just uncheck the non-free part of the DVD. :) Yep, it could just be an option. The desktop selection step seems to be a good place in the installer to include it, it is visible enough, and right before packages installation. Though it would have to be renamed. We could have a checkbox Install proprietary drivers if needed (non-free software), ticked by default. perfect solution :) Maybe for you. Maybe for me. But, the *real* question is, would this discourage some of our target market from using our distribution. IOW, we *must* get community input (after documenting some proposals). Are you aware that this would mean that Mageia is not a free distribution as planned? No matter how you phrase the question and how many checkboxes a user would have to check, if non-free contents is included in an ISO it is not a free ISO anymore. Mageia the distribution includes non-free software. We are talking about what we include on the ISO. If users want to exclude installing any non-free packages, this check-box solution solves the problem nicely. Depends on what guidelines you follow. E.g., some might say there shouldn't be a checkbox at all. Some might say the checkbox should be disabled by default. Some might say that there should be no non-free software on the default media. So users that want to ensure that their installation works out of the box will be satisfied. And purists that don't mind some things not working, can avoid installing non-free drivers. Can avoid and guaranteed to never occur are not the same, and some users may want the latter. Sounds like a win-win solution to me :) But, again, this is subjective, you are presenting your preference, and yours may not be the only one we should cater to. Regards, Buchan
Re: [Mageia-dev] Non-free firmwares in installer
- Maarten Vanraes maarten.vanr...@gmail.com wrote: Op donderdag 24 maart 2011 11:18:03 schreef Olivier Blin: Wolfgang Bornath molc...@googlemail.com writes: It can't be free and have non-free firmware... previously the firmware only were on the Live CD's. I am not sure anything has been changed in that regard (i.e. I didn't see the matter get discussed yet). They were also on the PowerPack images, and they are installed automatically over a network install But to be installed via network you have to have a network connection first, n'est-ce pas? That's what this thread is about. It is now also about in which media should we include non-free packages? :) no, about if they are really non-free... stuff released as BSD is free in my book. if they don't comply, they could be sued for all i care, but it's still free. Well, even if they say the source code is BSD, if: 1)The source is not provided (under a free license) 2)The source can't be compiled with a free toolchain then it is non-free, and most likely the license is wrong, and they have chosen to relicense from BSD to a proprietary licence (which BSD of course allows). Compare e.g. Darwin and Mac OS X. Since Mac OS X is has some originally BSD source code, must Apple provide me with complete Mac OS X source code? If they don't, do I have grounds to sue? No. Is it Free? Most definitely not. Regards, Buchan
Re: [Mageia-dev] Non-free firmwares in installer
Quote: andr55 wrote on Fri, 25 March 2011 01:29 My though was essentially that firmware is so close to hardware that its actual free/non-free status shouldn't apply - we should treat it like (almost) part of the hardware. I agree with that. After all nobody (apart from R. Stallmann) questions the fact that the BIOS of their PC is non-free or all the other firmware or microcode on various chips on the motherboard and on expansion cards and peripherals. Firmware belongs into 'core', Nvidia/ATI drivers and the Flash plugin belong into 'non-free'. -- Mageia ML Forum Gateway: http://mageia.linuxtech.net/forum/
Re: [Mageia-dev] Non-free firmwares in installer
Am 25.03.2011 09:23, schrieb Buchan Milne: Maybe for you. Maybe for me. But, the*real* question is, would this discourage some of our target market from using our distribution. IOW, we*must* get community input (after documenting some proposals). Maybe we should postpone this question. Let us release Mageia1 with two DVDs (one 32bit and one 64bit) and maybe with a live medium. Mageia1 won't be a big step but tries to be a solid fundamental for our further work, so no need to make a final decision now. What about a large survey after Mageia1 which concentrates not only on Mageia user but the linux community at all (advertise this survey in linux media/newsprotals). Ask them, what they expect from a distribution or what they miss (yes I know not an easy task, need of standardized questions/possible answers). I think that could be really interesting, which doesn't mean that we have to implement every wish they have. Regards, Thorsten
Re: [Mageia-dev] Non-free firmwares in installer
- Tux99 tux99-...@uridium.org wrote: Quote: andr55 wrote on Fri, 25 March 2011 01:29 My though was essentially that firmware is so close to hardware that its actual free/non-free status shouldn't apply - we should treat it like (almost) part of the hardware. I agree with that. After all nobody (apart from R. Stallmann) questions the fact that the BIOS of their PC is non-free or all the other firmware or microcode on various chips on the motherboard and on expansion cards and peripherals. Firmware belongs into 'core', You mean, firmware which has an unrestricted distribution licence? Nvidia/ATI drivers and the Flash plugin belong into 'non-free'. Actually, for Flash, we need a redistribution license. Has someone contacted Adobe about this? Redistribution of Flash without a licence is prohibited[1]. We can apply for a licence to redistribute[2]. Regards, Buchan 1. http://www.adobe.com/products/players/fpsh_faq.html#section-1-5 2. http://www.adobe.com/go/fp_apply_dist
Re: [Mageia-dev] Non-free firmwares in installer
This has really moved away from the question of providing drivers/firmware to a pissing contest about whose philosophy the default offerings should represent. Presumably, FLOSS supporters are satisfied with the state of the current ISOs, and https://bugs.mageia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=523 would address extending install functionality without changing the content of the existing ISOs, which should be an improvement over where we are now without corrupting the FLOSS purity of the existing ISOs. I think we should proceed with that approach, and leave the more controversial question of whether the ISOs should be merged for another day. You can say what you like about newbies or Aunt Edna, but anyone who can find one ISO for themselves can find two, and the argument about how the drivers/firmware wouldn't take up much space on the DVD goes both ways, since downloading a separate ISO for them is then not that big a deal in terms of bandwidth. If you can't understand a reasonably verbose panel that says that your computer's hardware requires our secondary network/drivers/firmware CD/DVD/ISO in order to activate networking, and says that you can find it in the same place you got this disk, be that a network repository or a friend who burned it for you, then you probably need to be reminded to breathe. Such people are hardly about to be Mageia early-adopters, and we have some time to discuss how we want to deal with them. Eventually, we may agree to offer a merged ISO. Better still, since anyone falling into the category of needing that much hand-holding is unlikely to have bought a bare machine and is probably coming from Windows, maybe we ought to provide a Windows app that checks the hardware, downloads the needed ISOs to the Windows filesystem (on what we assume is a working network-enabled system) after suitable prompts to the user, and then enhance the install to look for them there.
Re: [Mageia-dev] Non-free firmwares in installer
2011/3/25 Frank Griffin f...@roadrunner.com: You can say what you like about newbies or Aunt Edna, but anyone who can find one ISO for themselves can find two, and the argument about how the drivers/firmware wouldn't take up much space on the DVD goes both ways, since downloading a separate ISO for them is then not that big a deal in terms of bandwidth. If you can't understand a reasonably verbose panel that says that your computer's hardware requires our secondary network/drivers/firmware CD/DVD/ISO in order to activate networking, and says that you can find it in the same place you got this disk, be that a network repository or a friend who burned it for you, then you probably need to be reminded to breathe. Such people are hardly about to be Mageia early-adopters, and we have some time to discuss how we want to deal with them. +1 Especially migrators from Windows will understand this To activate this hadware you need an extra driver approach - they see it almost every time they install a hardware which is not really mainstream (and for some mainstream hardware as well). -- wobo
Re: [Mageia-dev] Non-free firmwares in installer
On 25.03.2011 14:04, Frank Griffin wrote: Presumably, FLOSS supporters are satisfied with the state of the current ISOs, I'd not presume that, as as previously stated they contain firmware files without source code even now. -- Anssi Hannula
Re: [Mageia-dev] Non-free firmwares in installer
My two cents as an user: Presumably, FLOSS supporters are satisfied with the state of the current ISOs, and https://bugs.mageia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=523 would address extending install functionality without changing the content of the existing ISOs, which should be an improvement over where we are now without corrupting the FLOSS purity of the existing ISOs. Not all FLOSS supporters believe that ISOs should be pure. I would label myself a FLOSS partisan (having contributed in FLOSS projects for 10 years), and yet I don't really make a fuss if an ISO contains non-free software, especially if such software is necessary for good use of some peripherals... By labelling FLOSS supporters only the partisans of aforementioned purity (a term which, in any political context, should really give you shivers), you are making the community as a whole a disservice. It is not the purists vs. the realists, or some other caricatural reduction of reality. You can say what you like about newbies or Aunt Edna, but anyone who can find one ISO for themselves can find two, and the argument about how the drivers/firmware wouldn't take up much space on the DVD goes both ways, since downloading a separate ISO for them is then not that big a deal in terms of bandwidth. Having one ISOs instead of several is not about minimizing download times, it's about providing a better user experience. OTOH, if aforementioned non-free software can be downloaded automatically over the Internet (especially during installation), then the whole issue becomes moot. /my 2 cents Regards Antoine.
Re: [Mageia-dev] Non-free firmwares in installer
2011/3/25 Antoine Pitrou solip...@pitrou.net: OTOH, if aforementioned non-free software can be downloaded automatically over the Internet (especially during installation), then the whole issue becomes moot. The start of this debate (which has grown very far beyond the initial request) was how to add non-free drivers/firmware for WiFi or special network cards to the installation process for users who can not download anything during installation because such drivers/firmware are needed for internet connection. So, this issue can not become moot :) But everything else (graphic, sound, webcam, etc.) can be installed from the internet after installation if necessary. This has never been an issue. -- wobo
Re: [Mageia-dev] Non-free firmwares in installer
2011/3/24 Ahmad Samir ahmadsamir3...@gmail.com: On 24 March 2011 02:58, Dexter Morgan dmorga...@gmail.com wrote: On Thu, Mar 24, 2011 at 1:38 AM, Ahmad Samir ahmadsamir3...@gmail.com wrote: Has the Free DVD in Mandriva ever contained non-free firmware? No, but the question is more , will we provide a non free dvd iso, and this question is i think interesting. It can't be free and have non-free firmware... previously the firmware only were on the Live CD's. I am not sure anything has been changed in that regard (i.e. I didn't see the matter get discussed yet). Correct. It's the same dilemma you have in Mandriva. You either need a cable attached to use the free edition or you have to use the ONE Edition and install all the needed software later (ex: system-config-printer, which is not on the ONE cds). If you want to have a free distribution there's no way around this as long as there is the need for non-free firmware to use certain hardware. A possible solution for people with such a setup could be a non-free driver cd ISO which they could include in the installation process. -- wobo
Re: [Mageia-dev] Non-free firmwares in installer
Wolfgang Bornath skrev 24.3.2011 10:57: 2011/3/24 Ahmad Samirahmadsamir3...@gmail.com: It can't be free and have non-free firmware... previously the firmware only were on the Live CD's. I am not sure anything has been changed in that regard (i.e. I didn't see the matter get discussed yet). Correct. It's the same dilemma you have in Mandriva. You either need a cable attached to use the free edition or you have to use the ONE Edition and install all the needed software later (ex: system-config-printer, which is not on the ONE cds). If you want to have a free distribution there's no way around this as long as there is the need for non-free firmware to use certain hardware. A possible solution for people with such a setup could be a non-free driver cd ISO which they could include in the installation process. This is actually a very good idea, and already supported by the installer, so it should work nicely... I think this is the way to do it... -- Thomas
Re: [Mageia-dev] Non-free firmwares in installer
I opened https://bugs.mageia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=523 -- wobo
Re: [Mageia-dev] Non-free firmwares in installer
Ahmad Samir ahmadsamir3...@gmail.com writes: On 24 March 2011 02:58, Dexter Morgan dmorga...@gmail.com wrote: On Thu, Mar 24, 2011 at 1:38 AM, Ahmad Samir ahmadsamir3...@gmail.com wrote: Has the Free DVD in Mandriva ever contained non-free firmware? No, but the question is more , will we provide a non free dvd iso, and this question is i think interesting. It can't be free and have non-free firmware... previously the firmware only were on the Live CD's. I am not sure anything has been changed in that regard (i.e. I didn't see the matter get discussed yet). They were also on the PowerPack images, and they are installed automatically over a network install -- Olivier Blin - blino
Re: [Mageia-dev] Non-free firmwares in installer
Am 24.03.2011 09:57, schrieb Wolfgang Bornath: 2011/3/24 Ahmad Samirahmadsamir3...@gmail.com: On 24 March 2011 02:58, Dexter Morgandmorga...@gmail.com wrote: On Thu, Mar 24, 2011 at 1:38 AM, Ahmad Samirahmadsamir3...@gmail.com wrote: Has the Free DVD in Mandriva ever contained non-free firmware? No, but the question is more , will we provide a non free dvd iso, and this question is i think interesting. A possible solution for people with such a setup could be a non-free driver cd ISO which they could include in the installation process. What about a DVD including non-free packages but has the option to not install them? I think the majority of the users don't care that much about proprietary issues, they just need them for using there wireless card or graphic card. Those how do care can just uncheck the non-free part of the DVD. :) Regards, Thorsten
Re: [Mageia-dev] Non-free firmwares in installer
Wolfgang Bornath molc...@googlemail.com writes: It can't be free and have non-free firmware... previously the firmware only were on the Live CD's. I am not sure anything has been changed in that regard (i.e. I didn't see the matter get discussed yet). They were also on the PowerPack images, and they are installed automatically over a network install But to be installed via network you have to have a network connection first, n'est-ce pas? That's what this thread is about. It is now also about in which media should we include non-free packages? :) -- Olivier Blin - blino
Re: [Mageia-dev] Non-free firmwares in installer
2011/3/24 Thorsten van Lil tv...@gmx.de: Am 24.03.2011 09:57, schrieb Wolfgang Bornath: 2011/3/24 Ahmad Samirahmadsamir3...@gmail.com: On 24 March 2011 02:58, Dexter Morgandmorga...@gmail.com wrote: On Thu, Mar 24, 2011 at 1:38 AM, Ahmad Samirahmadsamir3...@gmail.com wrote: Has the Free DVD in Mandriva ever contained non-free firmware? No, but the question is more , will we provide a non free dvd iso, and this question is i think interesting. A possible solution for people with such a setup could be a non-free driver cd ISO which they could include in the installation process. What about a DVD including non-free packages but has the option to not install them? I think the majority of the users don't care that much about proprietary issues, they just need them for using there wireless card or graphic card. Those how do care can just uncheck the non-free part of the DVD. :) The problem really is to now what is this majority :). SPeaking without figures is a bit tricky. I guess Romain will propose some investigations on this so that we can find the best solution for end users and advanced users. Regards, Thorsten -- Anne http://www.mageia.org
Re: [Mageia-dev] Non-free firmwares in installer
2011/3/24 Olivier Blin mag...@blino.org: Thorsten van Lil tv...@gmx.de writes: Am 24.03.2011 09:57, schrieb Wolfgang Bornath: 2011/3/24 Ahmad Samirahmadsamir3...@gmail.com: On 24 March 2011 02:58, Dexter Morgandmorga...@gmail.com wrote: On Thu, Mar 24, 2011 at 1:38 AM, Ahmad Samirahmadsamir3...@gmail.com wrote: Has the Free DVD in Mandriva ever contained non-free firmware? No, but the question is more , will we provide a non free dvd iso, and this question is i think interesting. A possible solution for people with such a setup could be a non-free driver cd ISO which they could include in the installation process. What about a DVD including non-free packages but has the option to not install them? I think the majority of the users don't care that much about proprietary issues, they just need them for using there wireless card or graphic card. Those how do care can just uncheck the non-free part of the DVD. :) Yep, it could just be an option. The desktop selection step seems to be a good place in the installer to include it, it is visible enough, and right before packages installation. Though it would have to be renamed. We could have a checkbox Install proprietary drivers if needed (non-free software), ticked by default. Are you aware that this would mean that Mageia is not a free distribution as planned? No matter how you phrase the question and how many checkboxes a user would have to check, if non-free contents is included in an ISO it is not a free ISO anymore. -- wobo
Re: [Mageia-dev] Non-free firmwares in installer
Donald Stewart skrev 24.3.2011 11:39: I've never installed with more than one cd, but from memory, the installer asks for extra media, surely if your installing from the free dvd and have to eject it to add a non-free cd then that would cause problems, or have I misunderstood? Nope, Installer will only ask you to switch media when needed, and then continue. If I've misunderstood, this would be really great. An extra thing would be a plug in that the installer could download for you containing the non-free stuff. Quite often I install new stuff on my laptop close to a wire, then take it out with me and thats when I need the wireless stuff. Not to mention non-free graphics drivers on desktops that have a wired connection having to be installed and set up post install. It already can if you add network medias during install, but in order to pull anything from the net, you need the firmware (if you have a nic/wifi that needs it) -- thomas
Re: [Mageia-dev] Non-free firmwares in installer
On Thu, Mar 24, 2011 at 11:39, Wolfgang Bornath molc...@googlemail.com wrote: But I don't think it would be a good idea to include non-free contents in the distribution ISOs at all. That this assumed majority does not care about the issue does not mean we should not care either. We should rather stress the point. We already made such a difference by using different repositories, we not continue this in our product line? We use a different repo for non-free, we also should use a different ISO for non-free. Well, that's precisely debatable (and why I'll try to setup a relevant survey through marcom). The ISO can be seen as a static commodity storage; that it holds core and nonfree makes no such difference as that those two media are available from the network without discrimination. So yes, the ISO in itself would not be free anymore; but as long as the install process does not pick into the nonfree media unless the user asks to, what does it make an issue (not that I have no idea about that, just that I'd like to see it expressed again from a different POV of mine - and that will help for the survey definition too). And that would make the case for a consistent installing experience that, no matter you're doing an exclusively ISO-based install or a network-based install, you get through the same steps (with a consistent opt-in or opt-out, clearly explained). It would only happen that non-free media is available locally if asked for. The alternative, if we're not to mix things on the static media, is to have distinct ISOs: free and nonfree/tainted ones. Times the format: DVD/CD/arch/USB through which we would have to decide to ease: building, qa and distribution (we will have to choose a default one to provide to visitors on the download page for instance). Romain
Re: [Mageia-dev] Non-free firmwares in installer
Am Donnerstag 24 März 2011, 11:43:57 schrieb Rémi Verschelde: 2011/3/24 Wolfgang Bornath molc...@googlemail.com: We already made such a difference by using different repositories, we not continue this in our product line? We use a different repo for non-free, we also should use a different ISO for non-free. That's what I was thinking about. Could it be possible to have a free ISO and a non-free ISO? (although we should not advertise it this way, for Mageia 1 Non-Free isn't very glamorous). I'm not really knowledgeable on this matter so there may be inherent problems to that solution. If I'm not mistaken, Debian squeeze doesn't put any nonfree things on it's ISO at all, but you can put an archive containing them on an usb key and the installer looks for it and installs them, when they are present. I think, that is an elegant way, isn't it? Oliver
Re: [Mageia-dev] Non-free firmwares in installer
Le jeudi 24 mars 2011 à 11:15 +0100, Thorsten van Lil a écrit : Am 24.03.2011 09:57, schrieb Wolfgang Bornath: 2011/3/24 Ahmad Samirahmadsamir3...@gmail.com: On 24 March 2011 02:58, Dexter Morgandmorga...@gmail.com wrote: On Thu, Mar 24, 2011 at 1:38 AM, Ahmad Samirahmadsamir3...@gmail.com wrote: Has the Free DVD in Mandriva ever contained non-free firmware? No, but the question is more , will we provide a non free dvd iso, and this question is i think interesting. A possible solution for people with such a setup could be a non-free driver cd ISO which they could include in the installation process. What about a DVD including non-free packages but has the option to not install them? I think the majority of the users don't care that much about proprietary issues, they just need them for using there wireless card or graphic card. Those how do care can just uncheck the non-free part of the DVD. :) Well, personally, then I would just continue to use Fedora or others distribution on my computers, and keep Mageia just for the servers of the project. -- Michael Scherer
Re: [Mageia-dev] Non-free firmwares in installer
On 03/24/2011 04:57 AM, Wolfgang Bornath wrote: A possible solution for people with such a setup could be a non-free driver cd ISO which they could include in the installation process. Excellent suggestion, and it dovetails with another problem: being able to do a network install over a wireless connection. If there were an optional non-free network ISO supported by the install stage 1, that would address both issues, no ?
Re: [Mageia-dev] Non-free firmwares in installer
2011/3/24 Oliver Burger oliver@googlemail.com: Am Donnerstag 24 März 2011, 11:43:57 schrieb Rémi Verschelde: 2011/3/24 Wolfgang Bornath molc...@googlemail.com: We already made such a difference by using different repositories, we not continue this in our product line? We use a different repo for non-free, we also should use a different ISO for non-free. That's what I was thinking about. Could it be possible to have a free ISO and a non-free ISO? (although we should not advertise it this way, for Mageia 1 Non-Free isn't very glamorous). I'm not really knowledgeable on this matter so there may be inherent problems to that solution. If I'm not mistaken, Debian squeeze doesn't put any nonfree things on it's ISO at all, but you can put an archive containing them on an usb key and the installer looks for it and installs them, when they are present. I think, that is an elegant way, isn't it? Well, that's exactly what I suggested in the beginning: a small dualarch ISO with the non-free stuff to be used additionally during installation (and later). -- wobo
Re: [Mageia-dev] Non-free firmwares in installer
2011/3/24 Romain d'Alverny rdalve...@gmail.com: Well, that's precisely debatable (and why I'll try to setup a relevant survey through marcom). The ISO can be seen as a static commodity storage; that it holds core and nonfree makes no such difference as that those two media are available from the network without discrimination. So yes, the ISO in itself would not be free anymore; but as long as the install process does not pick into the nonfree media unless the user asks to, what does it make an issue (not that I have no idea about that, just that I'd like to see it expressed again from a different POV of mine - and that will help for the survey definition too). In the public appearance this would make a difference. As soon as there is non-free contents on the ISO it is a non-free ISO. That we provide non-free on the mirrors doesn't make Mageia a non-free distro, only what we offer as products. That's why I also don't like the idea to have a free ISO and an ISO including core non-free. The alternative, if we're not to mix things on the static media, is to have distinct ISOs: free and nonfree/tainted ones. Times the format: DVD/CD/arch/USB through which we would have to decide to ease: building, qa and distribution (we will have to choose a default one to provide to visitors on the download page for instance). No. As I already wrote: a small dualarch driver ISO is all that's needed. No issue about what kind of distro Mageia supplies, no issue about build efforts. Plus the benefit of making the user aware of the difference. -- wobo
Re: [Mageia-dev] Non-free firmwares in installer
On Thu, Mar 24, 2011 at 12:03, Wolfgang Bornath molc...@googlemail.com wrote: In the public appearance this would make a difference. As soon as there is non-free contents on the ISO it is a non-free ISO. That we provide non-free on the mirrors doesn't make Mageia a non-free distro, only what we offer as products. Yes. That's why I also don't like the idea to have a free ISO and an ISO including core non-free. Why not? (genuine question - that was what Powerpack used to be - and there are places where shipping a DVD is still more affordable than getting it through the wire). No. As I already wrote: a small dualarch driver ISO is all that's needed. No issue about what kind of distro Mageia supplies, no issue about build efforts. Ok. Romain
Re: [Mageia-dev] Non-free firmwares in installer
On Thursday, 24 March 2011 12:48:22 Romain d'Alverny wrote: On Thu, Mar 24, 2011 at 11:39, Wolfgang Bornath molc...@googlemail.com wrote: But I don't think it would be a good idea to include non-free contents in the distribution ISOs at all. That this assumed majority does not care about the issue does not mean we should not care either. We should rather stress the point. We already made such a difference by using different repositories, we not continue this in our product line? We use a different repo for non-free, we also should use a different ISO for non-free. Well, that's precisely debatable (and why I'll try to setup a relevant survey through marcom). The ISO can be seen as a static commodity storage; that it holds core and nonfree makes no such difference as that those two media are available from the network without discrimination. So yes, the ISO in itself would not be free anymore; but as long as the install process does not pick into the nonfree media unless the user asks to, what does it make an issue (not that I have no idea about that, just that I'd like to see it expressed again from a different POV of mine - and that will help for the survey definition too). The question is, why do we want to have a free distribution? What are suitable guidelines? The users who want a Free distribution, would probably choose one that adheres to the FSF free distribution guidelines: http://www.gnu.org/distros/free-system-distribution-guidelines.html I think we already don't meet them, with or without a Free DVD, even if we were to remove non-free firmware in the kernel, because we have non-free repos. And that would make the case for a consistent installing experience that, no matter you're doing an exclusively ISO-based install or a network-based install, you get through the same steps (with a consistent opt-in or opt-out, clearly explained). It would only happen that non-free media is available locally if asked for. The alternative, if we're not to mix things on the static media, is to have distinct ISOs: free and nonfree/tainted ones. Times the format: DVD/CD/arch/USB through which we would have to decide to ease: building, qa and distribution (we will have to choose a default one to provide to visitors on the download page for instance). Is there a real benefit? Or, is usability more important? Or, do we want to discuss with FSF the guidelines and whether it is possible for a distribution project to both meet their guidelines (e.g., if user chooses X media, they will never be prompted for non-free software, repositories etc.) and be useful for real-world-users who can't always choose hardware based on open-ness alone? Regards, Buchan
Re: [Mageia-dev] Non-free firmwares in installer
On Thursday, 24 March 2011 13:03:08 Wolfgang Bornath wrote: 2011/3/24 Romain d'Alverny rdalve...@gmail.com: Well, that's precisely debatable (and why I'll try to setup a relevant survey through marcom). The ISO can be seen as a static commodity storage; that it holds core and nonfree makes no such difference as that those two media are available from the network without discrimination. So yes, the ISO in itself would not be free anymore; but as long as the install process does not pick into the nonfree media unless the user asks to, what does it make an issue (not that I have no idea about that, just that I'd like to see it expressed again from a different POV of mine - and that will help for the survey definition too). In the public appearance this would make a difference. As soon as there is non-free contents on the ISO it is a non-free ISO. That we provide non-free on the mirrors doesn't make Mageia a non-free distro, only what we offer as products. According to which definition/guidelines? According to FSF, we are probably currently non-free. Regards, Buchan
Re: [Mageia-dev] Non-free firmwares in installer
Am 24.03.2011 11:53, schrieb Michael Scherer: Le jeudi 24 mars 2011 à 11:15 +0100, Thorsten van Lil a écrit : What about a DVD including non-free packages but has the option to not install them? I think the majority of the users don't care that much about proprietary issues, they just need them for using there wireless card or graphic card. Those how do care can just uncheck the non-free part of the DVD. :) Well, personally, then I would just continue to use Fedora or others distribution on my computers, and keep Mageia just for the servers of the project. Why? I respect those who don't want to use non-free software, so this shouldn't be a discussion about ideology. But I don't see a real difference between an free-iso + an extra iso for non-free and an iso where non-free is in an extra directory and can be used if the user wants to. The only difference I see is, like wobo said, the public perception but this couldn't be your trigger? Regards, Thorsten
Re: [Mageia-dev] Non-free firmwares in installer
On 24.03.2011 12:53, Michael Scherer wrote: Le jeudi 24 mars 2011 à 11:15 +0100, Thorsten van Lil a écrit : Am 24.03.2011 09:57, schrieb Wolfgang Bornath: 2011/3/24 Ahmad Samirahmadsamir3...@gmail.com: On 24 March 2011 02:58, Dexter Morgandmorga...@gmail.com wrote: On Thu, Mar 24, 2011 at 1:38 AM, Ahmad Samirahmadsamir3...@gmail.com wrote: Has the Free DVD in Mandriva ever contained non-free firmware? No, but the question is more , will we provide a non free dvd iso, and this question is i think interesting. A possible solution for people with such a setup could be a non-free driver cd ISO which they could include in the installation process. What about a DVD including non-free packages but has the option to not install them? I think the majority of the users don't care that much about proprietary issues, they just need them for using there wireless card or graphic card. Those how do care can just uncheck the non-free part of the DVD. :) Well, personally, then I would just continue to use Fedora or others distribution on my computers, and keep Mageia just for the servers of the project. Fedora includes non-free firmware both in repo and medias, so why prefer that? -- Anssi Hannula
Re: [Mageia-dev] Non-free firmwares in installer
On 24.03.2011 12:39, Wolfgang Bornath wrote: But I don't think it would be a good idea to include non-free contents in the distribution ISOs at all. That this assumed majority does not care about the issue does not mean we should not care either. We should rather stress the point. Note that the current Alpha2 ISO contains many non-free [1] firmware files, and without those e.g. many popular wired NICs do not work, and the 3D acceleration of ATI *free* driver depends on those. [1] Depending on the definition - some are BSD/similar but still without source code, so considered non-free by OSI/FSF/Debian. -- Anssi Hannula
Re: [Mageia-dev] Non-free firmwares in installer
On 24.03.2011 14:41, Wolfgang Bornath wrote: 2011/3/24 Anssi Hannula anssi.hann...@iki.fi: On 24.03.2011 12:39, Wolfgang Bornath wrote: But I don't think it would be a good idea to include non-free contents in the distribution ISOs at all. That this assumed majority does not care about the issue does not mean we should not care either. We should rather stress the point. Note that the current Alpha2 ISO contains many non-free [1] firmware files, and without those e.g. many popular wired NICs do not work, and the 3D acceleration of ATI *free* driver depends on those. [1] Depending on the definition - some are BSD/similar but still without source code, so considered non-free by OSI/FSF/Debian. Good point. In this discussion we were too vague about this. As I see this the discussion so far was about non-free software, where non-free meant the software in the non-free repos, not the strict definition of free by FSF. Prominent example (and trigger of this discussion): WiFi driver/firmware. Well, currently the firmware are assigned between non-free and core at random (yes, we have non-free firmware in core, and yes, there are GPL firmware in non-free, etc), so... -- Anssi Hannula
Re: [Mageia-dev] Non-free firmwares in installer
On Thu, 24 Mar 2011 11:18:03 +0100, Olivier Blin mag...@blino.org wrote: Wolfgang Bornath molc...@googlemail.com writes: It can't be free and have non-free firmware... previously the firmware only were on the Live CD's. I am not sure anything has been changed in that regard (i.e. I didn't see the matter get discussed yet). They were also on the PowerPack images, and they are installed automatically over a network install But to be installed via network you have to have a network connection first, n'est-ce pas? That's what this thread is about. It is now also about in which media should we include non-free packages? :) First of all, I would like to state that my intention was just to ask about the non-free blobs that free open source drivers need to work. But the discussion seems to have extended to general non-free software... From my point of view, including firmwares like intel, radeon, or linksys ones is just adding more instances of what already is in the kernel, it contains binary blobs also. I really was not thinking of things like nVidia or Radeon drivers, or others, that could raise more problems. I like the idea of an addtional iso with non-free drivers, but using two medias could be problematic. Just a blind shot, if this can be done easily in Linux: could we have two isos that could be combined into one by the user itself at burn time, or when dumping to an USB flash drive ? So from your point of view, you just offer a Free ISO for distribution, and an additional driver pack, and the user just have to burn/carry one media. -- J.A. Magallon jamagallon()ono!com \ Software is like sex: \ It's better when it's free
Re: [Mageia-dev] Non-free firmwares in installer
Wolfgang Bornath a écrit : 2011/3/24 Olivier Blinmag...@blino.org: Thorsten van Liltv...@gmx.de writes: Am 24.03.2011 09:57, schrieb Wolfgang Bornath: 2011/3/24 Ahmad Samirahmadsamir3...@gmail.com: On 24 March 2011 02:58, Dexter Morgandmorga...@gmail.comwrote: On Thu, Mar 24, 2011 at 1:38 AM, Ahmad Samirahmadsamir3...@gmail.comwrote: Has the Free DVD in Mandriva ever contained non-free firmware? No, but the question is more , will we provide a non free dvd iso, and this question is i think interesting. A possible solution for people with such a setup could be a non-free driver cd ISO which they could include in the installation process. What about a DVD including non-free packages but has the option to not install them? I think the majority of the users don't care that much about proprietary issues, they just need them for using there wireless card or graphic card. Those how do care can just uncheck the non-free part of the DVD. :) Yep, it could just be an option. The desktop selection step seems to be a good place in the installer to include it, it is visible enough, and right before packages installation. Though it would have to be renamed. We could have a checkbox Install proprietary drivers if needed (non-free software), ticked by default. perfect solution :) Are you aware that this would mean that Mageia is not a free distribution as planned? No matter how you phrase the question and how many checkboxes a user would have to check, if non-free contents is included in an ISO it is not a free ISO anymore. Mageia the distribution includes non-free software. We are talking about what we include on the ISO. If users want to exclude installing any non-free packages, this check-box solution solves the problem nicely. So users that want to ensure that their installation works out of the box will be satisfied. And purists that don't mind some things not working, can avoid installing non-free drivers. Sounds like a win-win solution to me :) -- André
Re: [Mageia-dev] Non-free firmwares in installer
Romain d'Alverny a écrit : On Thu, Mar 24, 2011 at 11:39, Wolfgang Bornathmolc...@googlemail.com wrote: But I don't think it would be a good idea to include non-free contents in the distribution ISOs at all. That this assumed majority does not care about the issue does not mean we should not care either. We should rather stress the point. We already made such a difference by using different repositories, we not continue this in our product line? We use a different repo for non-free, we also should use a different ISO for non-free. Well, that's precisely debatable (and why I'll try to setup a relevant survey through marcom). The ISO can be seen as a static commodity storage; that it holds core and nonfree makes no such difference as that those two media are available from the network without discrimination. exactly. Adding these non-free drivers -- for which a reliable free equivalent doesn't exist -- would take a very small part of the dvd, which would thus remain essentially free. (We could even call it essentially free, with some proprietary drivers. This approach would remove the need to produce another iso to fill the gap caused by missing drivers. And options during installation will allow purists to avoid installing any non-free drivers -- at the expense of having a system that doesn't fully function, of course. But that is their legitimate choice. At the same time, those wanting their system to work out of the box will be satisfied as well. So yes, the ISO in itself would not be free anymore; but as long as the install process does not pick into the nonfree media unless the user asks to, what does it make an issue (not that I have no idea about that, just that I'd like to see it expressed again from a different POV of mine - and that will help for the survey definition too). And that would make the case for a consistent installing experience that, no matter you're doing an exclusively ISO-based install or a network-based install, you get through the same steps (with a consistent opt-in or opt-out, clearly explained). It would only happen that non-free media is available locally if asked for. good point. This will make support easier as well. The alternative, if we're not to mix things on the static media, is to have distinct ISOs: free and nonfree/tainted ones. Times the format: DVD/CD/arch/USB through which we would have to decide to ease: building, qa and distribution (we will have to choose a default one to provide to visitors on the download page for instance). I think we should avoid unnecessary complexity. As well, a single dvd (for each of 32 64 bit) will avoid the problem of users downloading the free dvd only to find that they need the missing drivers. But those really concerned could easily produce a non-official dvd without the few non-free drivers. another 2 cents :) Romain -- André
Re: [Mageia-dev] Non-free firmwares in installer
On Thu, Mar 24, 2011 at 20:08, Anssi Hannula anssi.hann...@iki.fi wrote: On 24.03.2011 19:35, Romain d'Alverny wrote: Summary (from http://mageia.org/wiki/doku.php?id=licensing_policy): * core: stuff that is not Free/Open Source according to OSI/FSF does not belong here. Not even closed-source stuff that we can redistribute. So if there is at this time, that's something to fix. Most of files in kernel-firmware (which is in core) are not OSI/FSF free (approximate list from 2010 [1]). There was a short thread about that [2] where I asked the question if they should be moved to non-free due to them not being OSI/FSF free, and tmb agreed, while pterjan disagreed (saying BSD without source code (where a portion of the firmware files in question fall) is eligible for core). [1] http://lists.mandriva.com/cooker/2010-01/msg00525.php [2] https://mageia.org/pipermail/mageia-dev/20110115/002172.html Ah right, sorry for overlooking this. So what do we do? amend core inclusion definition for that? or move these to nonfree? (and at what cost?) topic for next Council meeting to decide? would you like to write a summary for this in http://mageia.org/wiki/doku.php?id=meeting:council_notes_2011_03_28#open_questions ? Romain
Re: [Mageia-dev] Non-free firmwares in installer
Romain d'Alverny a écrit : On Thu, Mar 24, 2011 at 20:08, Anssi Hannulaanssi.hann...@iki.fi wrote: On 24.03.2011 19:35, Romain d'Alverny wrote: Summary (from http://mageia.org/wiki/doku.php?id=licensing_policy): * core: stuff that is not Free/Open Source according to OSI/FSF does not belong here. Not even closed-source stuff that we can redistribute. So if there is at this time, that's something to fix. Most of files in kernel-firmware (which is in core) are not OSI/FSF free (approximate list from 2010 [1]). There was a short thread about that [2] where I asked the question if they should be moved to non-free due to them not being OSI/FSF free, and tmb agreed, while pterjan disagreed (saying BSD without source code (where a portion of the firmware files in question fall) is eligible for core). [1] http://lists.mandriva.com/cooker/2010-01/msg00525.php [2] https://mageia.org/pipermail/mageia-dev/20110115/002172.html Ah right, sorry for overlooking this. So what do we do? amend core inclusion definition for that? or move these to nonfree? (and at what cost?) topic for next Council meeting to decide? would you like to write a summary for this in http://mageia.org/wiki/doku.php?id=meeting:council_notes_2011_03_28#open_questions ? Romain fwiw, I think the best solution is to have an express policy to include such firmware in core. Without it, much hardware simply won't work. Firmware/drivers are essentially extensions to hardware, so that software can work with them. The hardware is changed, and firmware/drivers have to be changed to accommodate the hardware. These firmware/drivers provide an interface which allows (free) software to run. A practical solution, which doesn't hurt free software. The alternative is (free) software that doesn't run properly. my 2 cents :) -- André
Re: [Mageia-dev] Non-free firmwares in installer
2011/3/24 JA Magallón jamagal...@ono.com: Hi... First of all, I have tried alpha2 on a couple systems, and apart from some glitches it works pretty fine, I could even work regularly on it... But there is just one thing that disappointed me. It looks that there is no non-free soft in installer DVD. I can live without nVidia drivers till I add non-free repos and reconfigure X after first boot, but for that I _need networking_. I tried this on a laptop and on a non-wired desktop. In both cases the wireless adapters were recognized, but were not activated because they needed binary firmware blobs (intel for the laptop, Linksis PCI wifi card for the desktop). The pain is that the desktop only network is WiFi, no possibility to run a cable to my router from the opposite corner of the house :(. So pick your USB stick and take a walk. I suppose the same problem will be very common, for laptops and desktops. Is there any possibility to include firmwares in the installed DVD ? Could the rules be relaxed a bit or not ? If people have only one computer, routed via wifi, they are in trouble... As I said, you can live with free drivers for graphics, but you can't without network :)). TIA -- J.A. Magallon jamagallon()ono!com \ Software is like sex: \ It's better when it's free Has the Free DVD in Mandriva ever contained non-free firmware? -- Ahmad Samir
Re: [Mageia-dev] Non-free firmwares in installer
On Thu, Mar 24, 2011 at 1:38 AM, Ahmad Samir ahmadsamir3...@gmail.com wrote: Has the Free DVD in Mandriva ever contained non-free firmware? No, but the question is more , will we provide a non free dvd iso, and this question is i think interesting.
Re: [Mageia-dev] Non-free firmwares in installer
On 24 March 2011 02:58, Dexter Morgan dmorga...@gmail.com wrote: On Thu, Mar 24, 2011 at 1:38 AM, Ahmad Samir ahmadsamir3...@gmail.com wrote: Has the Free DVD in Mandriva ever contained non-free firmware? No, but the question is more , will we provide a non free dvd iso, and this question is i think interesting. It can't be free and have non-free firmware... previously the firmware only were on the Live CD's. I am not sure anything has been changed in that regard (i.e. I didn't see the matter get discussed yet). -- Ahmad Samir
