Re: [mailop] Hotmail/Microsoft/Outlook - getting their attention

[John Levine]

>Yes - ISPs are immune unless they are deliberately doing things that 
>would be in the class of "unfair competition" to drive other companies 
>out of business.

You might want to look up a company called "Holomaxx".  They sued
Yahoo and Google under that theory and lost, badly.

Threatening to sue ISPs because they don't accept your mail is What
Spammers Do.  There is no reason to believe that Hotmail's behavior is
malicious, zero evidence that they are trying to put you out of
business, and less than no reason to believe that legal threats will
do anything except make people point at you, roll their eyes, and
giggle.

R's,
John

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Re: [mailop] Hotmail/Microsoft/Outlook - getting their attention

[Brandon Long]

There's magic sauce to try and split hairs, and it's not perfect.

Brandon

On Thu, Sep 3, 2015 at 3:21 PM, Jim Popovitch  wrote:

> On Thu, Sep 3, 2015 at 5:57 PM, Franck Martin 
> wrote:
> > or Google...
> >
>
> Guess what, Google allows their DMARC'ed domain to send to GMail users
> via 3rd party systems (i.e. mailop), so I do get Brandon's emails to
> various lists.   It's odd, from my perspective, to say the least.
> :-)
>
> -Jim P.
>
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Re: [mailop] Hotmail/Microsoft/Outlook - getting their attention

[Jim Popovitch]

On Thu, Sep 3, 2015 at 5:57 PM, Franck Martin  wrote:
> or Google...
>

Guess what, Google allows their DMARC'ed domain to send to GMail users
via 3rd party systems (i.e. mailop), so I do get Brandon's emails to
various lists.   It's odd, from my perspective, to say the least.
:-)

-Jim P.

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Re: [mailop] Hotmail/Microsoft/Outlook - getting their attention

[Jim Popovitch]

On Thu, Sep 3, 2015 at 6:05 PM, Laura Atkins  wrote:
>
>> On Sep 3, 2015, at 2:40 PM, Jim Popovitch  wrote:
>>
>> On Thu, Sep 3, 2015 at 4:21 PM, Brandon Long  wrote:
>>> In general, I'd be surprised if we spam folder mailop, though given it's a
>>> mailing list and several of the participants have dmarc p=reject or
>>> p=quaruntine enabled and the list isn't set up to handle that, not really
>>> surprised.
>>>
>>> Brandon
>>>
>>> On Thu, Sep 3, 2015 at 1:10 PM, Franck Martin  wrote:


 On Thu, Sep 3, 2015 at 12:20 PM, Mike Reed  wrote:
>
>>
>> Ha!  Here's a great example Brandon.   Franck's email, referenced
>
> That’s because gmail is listening to LinkedIn. And LinkedIn, by policy, says 
> that no mail with a linkedin.com address should be delivered unless it is 
> authenticated by LinkedIn.

Yep, and that is my point of how and why it is broken, but that horse
has been beat to death already.  Customer looses, no identifiable
person gains.

-Jim P.

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Re: [mailop] Hotmail/Microsoft/Outlook - getting their attention

[Laura Atkins]

> On Sep 3, 2015, at 2:40 PM, Jim Popovitch  wrote:
> 
> On Thu, Sep 3, 2015 at 4:21 PM, Brandon Long  wrote:
>> In general, I'd be surprised if we spam folder mailop, though given it's a
>> mailing list and several of the participants have dmarc p=reject or
>> p=quaruntine enabled and the list isn't set up to handle that, not really
>> surprised.
>> 
>> Brandon
>> 
>> On Thu, Sep 3, 2015 at 1:10 PM, Franck Martin  wrote:
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On Thu, Sep 3, 2015 at 12:20 PM, Mike Reed  wrote:
 
> 
> Ha!  Here's a great example Brandon.   Franck's email, referenced

That’s because gmail is listening to LinkedIn. And LinkedIn, by policy, says 
that no mail with a linkedin.com address should be delivered unless it is 
authenticated by LinkedIn. 

laura 

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Re: [mailop] Hotmail/Microsoft/Outlook - getting their attention

[Franck Martin]

or Google...

https://dmarcian.com/dmarc-inspector/google.com

On Thu, Sep 3, 2015 at 2:40 PM, Jim Popovitch  wrote:

> On Thu, Sep 3, 2015 at 4:21 PM, Brandon Long  wrote:
> > In general, I'd be surprised if we spam folder mailop, though given it's
> a
> > mailing list and several of the participants have dmarc p=reject or
> > p=quaruntine enabled and the list isn't set up to handle that, not really
> > surprised.
> >
> > Brandon
> >
> > On Thu, Sep 3, 2015 at 1:10 PM, Franck Martin 
> wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >> On Thu, Sep 3, 2015 at 12:20 PM, Mike Reed 
> wrote:
> >>>
>
> Ha!  Here's a great example Brandon.   Franck's email, referenced
> above, never made it to my gmail account, because of DMARC.
>
> -Jim P.
>
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Re: [mailop] Hotmail/Microsoft/Outlook - getting their attention

[Jim Popovitch]

On Thu, Sep 3, 2015 at 4:21 PM, Brandon Long  wrote:
> In general, I'd be surprised if we spam folder mailop, though given it's a
> mailing list and several of the participants have dmarc p=reject or
> p=quaruntine enabled and the list isn't set up to handle that, not really
> surprised.
>
> Brandon
>
> On Thu, Sep 3, 2015 at 1:10 PM, Franck Martin  wrote:
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Sep 3, 2015 at 12:20 PM, Mike Reed  wrote:
>>>

Ha!  Here's a great example Brandon.   Franck's email, referenced
above, never made it to my gmail account, because of DMARC.

-Jim P.

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Re: [mailop] Hotmail/Microsoft/Outlook - getting their attention

[Brandon Long]

In general, I'd be surprised if we spam folder mailop, though given it's a
mailing list and several of the participants have dmarc p=reject or
p=quaruntine enabled and the list isn't set up to handle that, not really
surprised.

Brandon

On Thu, Sep 3, 2015 at 1:10 PM, Franck Martin  wrote:

>
> On Thu, Sep 3, 2015 at 12:20 PM, Mike Reed  wrote:
>
>> Hi,
>>
>> Gmail filters mailop list items into the spam folder fairly often (at
>> least for me)... any service that has some filtering.. and all of them
>> must.. will make mistakes sometimes.
>>
>> Create a filter in gmail and select "Never send it to Spam"
>
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Re: [mailop] Hotmail/Microsoft/Outlook - getting their attention

[Franck Martin]

On Thu, Sep 3, 2015 at 12:20 PM, Mike Reed  wrote:

> Hi,
>
> Gmail filters mailop list items into the spam folder fairly often (at
> least for me)... any service that has some filtering.. and all of them
> must.. will make mistakes sometimes.
>
> Create a filter in gmail and select "Never send it to Spam"
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Re: [mailop] Hotmail/Microsoft/Outlook - getting their attention

[Aaron C. de Bruyn]

Yeah--I was wondering about that too.
I have "exercised" my 5th amendment right on several occasions and
have never been arrested for doing so.

Not to get even more off-topic but in the state of Oregon, there are
only 3 things an officer *MUST* absolutely arrest you for (i.e. he/she
has no discretion:
* Animal cruelty
* Domestic violence
* A judicial warrant

You'll notice that 'murder' doesn't even require an arrest, but
kicking a puppy does.  Strange priorities IMO.

Anyways--bad analogy.  You don't automatically get arrested for asking
to speak with a lawyer.

-A

On Thu, Sep 3, 2015 at 12:38 PM, Marc Perkel
 wrote:
> Well, it wouldn't be any worse than the responses I've got from Microsoft so
> far.
>
> On 09/03/15 11:05, Michael Wise wrote:
>>
>> You need to understand perfectly .. that it doesn't matter.
>>
>> It's like asking to speak to a lawyer when you are being "Questioned" by
>> the Police... it means an automatic arrest.

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Re: [mailop] Hotmail/Microsoft/Outlook - getting their attention

[Marc Perkel]

On 09/03/15 11:09, Michael Wise wrote:


Can your filter handle billions of pieces of email a day, across tens 
of thousands of servers?



It could scale to handle it.

And would your sanity survive the Microsoft Development process for 
such services?




No - not a chance. :)


The last one is probably the bigger issue, trust me on this.

To answer your question, you probably already have the answer; all 
requests need to go thru the front door located here:


http://mail.live.com/mail/troubleshooting.aspx

They will be automatically triaged, and if necessary reviewed by a 
human, and possibly subject to escalation.


Aloha,

Michael.

--

*Michael J Wise*| Microsoft| Spam Analysis | "Your Spam Specimen Has 
Been Processed." | Got the Junk Mail Reporting Tool 
?


*From:*Marc Perkel [mailto:supp...@junkemailfilter.com]
*Sent:* Thursday, September 3, 2015 10:42 AM
*To:* Michael Wise ; mailop@mailop.org
*Subject:* Re: [mailop] Hotmail/Microsoft/Outlook - getting their 
attention


Does anyone have any suggestions about how to get their attention and 
fix their problem?


I'd be happy to replace their lame spam filtering with mine. :)



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Re: [mailop] Introductions and white listing

[Marc Perkel]

Thanks for that Gil,

most weeks are good weeks but in August I had a number of screwups. Very 
unusual though. I didn't know about that stats page. Very interesting. I 
try hard to get it right.


On 09/03/15 11:07, Gil Bahat wrote:

Welcome to the list Marc,

I'll vouch for Marc on being a long time in the filtering business and 
being very reasonable to deal with.
For some things, I guess numbers can speak better than words so I 
offer these two links:


https://www.intra2net.com/en/support/antispam/blacklist.php_dnsbl=RCVD_IN_JMF_BL.html
https://www.intra2net.com/en/support/antispam/blacklist.php_dnsbl=RCVD_IN_JMF_WHITE.html

from the independent anti-spam testing corpus at intra2net, which is 
(imho) a great resource.


Regards,

Gil Bahat,
DevOps/Postmaster,
Magisto Ltd.

On Thu, Sep 3, 2015 at 8:57 PM, Marc Perkel 
mailto:supp...@junkemailfilter.com>> wrote:


I suppose I should introduce myself as I'm new to the list.

I'm Marc Perkel. My service is Junk Email Filter. The name says it
all. We do front end spam filtering, outbound spam filtering, and
email hosting.

Glad to be part of this list. Thanks for including me.

And - assuming people on this list all hate spam and want their
good email delivered - email me privately and I'll get you white
listed, or at least yellow listed. (yellow means that you send
some spam but it keeps you from being blacklisted - yahoo, gmail,
hotmail - yellow list.) Can list by host name (preferred). ex.
*.outlook.com  FCRDNS required.

And - if you want - feel free to use our DNSBL/DNSWL lists to
block spam/pass ham.

http://wiki.junkemailfilter.com/index.php/Spam_DNS_Lists

-- 
Marc Perkel - Sales/Support

supp...@junkemailfilter.com 
http://www.junkemailfilter.com
Junk Email Filter dot com
415-992-3400


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Junk Email Filter dot com
415-992-3400

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Re: [mailop] Hotmail/Microsoft/Outlook - getting their attention

[Marc Perkel]

Well, it wouldn't be any worse than the responses I've got from 
Microsoft so far.


On 09/03/15 11:05, Michael Wise wrote:

You need to understand perfectly .. that it doesn't matter.

It's like asking to speak to a lawyer when you are being "Questioned" by the 
Police... it means an automatic arrest.

Aloha,
Michael.


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supp...@junkemailfilter.com
http://www.junkemailfilter.com
Junk Email Filter dot com
415-992-3400


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Re: [mailop] Hotmail/Microsoft/Outlook - getting their attention

[Mike Reed]

Hi,

Gmail filters mailop list items into the spam folder fairly often (at least
for me)... any service that has some filtering.. and all of them must..
will make mistakes sometimes.

Kind regards,
Mike


On 3 September 2015 at 19:01, Luke Martinez 
wrote:

> A while back I told a representative that our new suggestion for senders
> dealing with unwarranted filtering is to tell their recipients to migrate
> to gmail or yahoo mailboxes. It actually got the ticket escalated and the
> filtering resolved. It felt incredibly childish. But the truth is, if
> non-transactional mail is being filtered at MS, there is simply no
> recourse. No matter how much data or context you provide, the only response
> you get is:
>
> "We have reviewed your IP(s) and determined that messages are being
> filtered (i.e. sent to the Junk folder) based on the recommendations of the
> SmartScreen
> 
> ® Filter."
>
> Super frustrating.
>
> On Thu, Sep 3, 2015 at 11:42 AM, Marc Perkel 
> wrote:
>
>> Does anyone have any suggestions about how to get their attention and fix
>> their problem?
>>
>> I'd be happy to replace their lame spam filtering with mine. :)
>>
>>
>> On 09/03/15 10:37, Michael Wise wrote:
>>
>> When you get LCA involved, or even mention them, things grind to a
>> complete halt.
>>
>> Aloha,
>> Michael.
>> --
>> Sent from my Windows Phone
>> --
>> From: Marc Perkel 
>> Sent: ‎9/‎3/‎2015 10:25 AM
>> To: mailop@mailop.org
>> Subject: Re: [mailop] Hotmail/Microsoft/Outlook - getting their attention
>>
>> I've had some luck before doing extreme things to get their attention.
>> And keep in mind this suggestion is aimed to get their attention.
>>
>> Lawyers for big corps are generally smart and if someone points out to
>> them an issue they can often deal with it before it becomes a lawsuit.
>> Same it true of negative publicity. Sales teams can often bring pressure
>> to tech staff if the product isn't working and getting bad press.
>>
>> Yes - ISPs are immune unless they are deliberately doing things that
>> would be in the class of "unfair competition" to drive other companies
>> out of business. (i.e. Netscape). So actually winning a suit would be
>> against the odds. Getting their attention to fix it - somewhat more
>> likely. And all that costs is an hour of my time and a stamp.
>>
>>
>> On 09/03/15 10:07, Anne Mitchell wrote:
>> >> And as someone who's job it is to stop spam, do you really want a
>> lawsuit to find that a mail service has to accept mail from someone else?
>> > Not to mention that Federal law specifically exempts ISPs from any
>> liability for acceptance/delivery decisions they make.  Federal law
>> specifically states that ISPs can refuse your email for any reason, or no
>> reason at all.
>> >
>> > Anne
>> >
>> > Anne P. Mitchell,
>> > Attorney at Law
>> > CEO/President
>> > ISIPP SuretyMail Email Reputation, Accreditation & Certification
>> > Your mail system + SuretyMail accreditation = delivered to their inbox!
>> > Figure Out if It's Worth It:
>> https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3a%2f%2fwww.isipp.com%2ffree-tools%2froi-calculator%2f&data=01%7c01%7cmichael.wise%40microsoft.com%7c93fad3f60c784b14c55d08d2b484afae%7c72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7c1&sdata=qT2me0029ndJmtSIFCYvEpmpqCIKy4GsqQsYG5ZtMCQ%3d
>> >
>> https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3a%2f%2fwww.SuretyMail.com%2f&data=01%7c01%7cmichael.wise%40microsoft.com%7c93fad3f60c784b14c55d08d2b484afae%7c72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7c1&sdata=Ja1qpl4qhqMD7%2f73EBwvitAZgu8FVRaV%2f6pxPpqdc0o%3d
>> >
>> https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3a%2f%2fwww.SuretyMail.eu%2f&data=01%7c01%7cmichael.wise%40microsoft.com%7c93fad3f60c784b14c55d08d2b484afae%7c72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7c1&sdata=WECDwFk9k2Mp0GDfjJj2Rlly0b8irwI1xarY%2bDiEqk0%3d
>> >
>> > Author: Section 6 of the CAN-SPAM Act of 2003 (the Federal anti-spam
>> law)
>> > Member, California Bar Cyberspace Law Committee
>> > Member, Colorado Cybersecurity Consortium
>> > Ret. Professor of Law, Lincoln Law School of San Jose
>> > 303-731-2121 | amitch...@isipp.com | @AnnePMitchell
>> > Facebook/AnnePMitchell  | LinkedIn/in/annemitchell
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > ___
>> > mailop mailing list
>> > mailop@mailop.org
>> >
>> https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3a%2f%2fchilli.nosignal.org%2fmailman%2flistinfo%2fmailop&data=01%7c01%7cmichael.wise%40microsoft.com%7c93fad3f60c784b14c55d08d2b484afae%7c72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7c1&sdata=zKUtbAc5dlB2YoC4OLX%2bZOeJfsBh4UAHPkY68hZW70s%3d
>> >
>> >
>> >
>>
>> --
>> Marc Perkel - Sales/Support
>> supp...@junkemailfilter.com
>>
>> https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3a%2f%2fwww.junkemailfilter.com&data=01%7c01%7cmichael.wise%40microsoft.com%7c93fad3f60c784b14c55d08d2b484afae%7c72f988bf86f141af91

Re: [mailop] Hotmail/Microsoft Contact Available?

[Laura Atkins]

>> Are those complaints or are they DMARC notices?
> 
> complaints, en mass, by a n00b who just returned from vacation and
> decided to expeditiously clear out his inbox.  :-)   He subscribed to
> a list on 07-Aug using an outlook.com addr, and again on 27-Aug using
> a @yahoo.com addr from a Comcast IP (73.53.12.230).

Happens.  I do it, too. And sometimes even for mail I didn’t subscribe to ;) 

That’s part of the “fun” of running a mailing list. 

> 
>> From discussions in other places, it seems Microsoft is doing an internal 
>> handoff that’s breaking authentication and a lot of messages are coming back 
>> as “unauthenticated” or “SPF fail.” This is the kind of message I would 
>> expect if they’ve really broken things and are actually sending out DMARC 
>> failure notices.
> 
> The only MS text is "complaint about message from 10.162.145.[0-9]+" ,
> everything else looks normal and good.

They really broke something during a recent update. They are doing an internal 
forward and, from the outside, it looks like they never told their tools that 
they added an extra forwarding hop. It’s breaking authentication and, 
apparently, breaking some of their FBL reporting. I have to wonder if they’re 
counting those FBL hits against your IP or against their own. 

Ooooh. That could so complicate filtering if their tools are looking at the 10* 
IP and not the source IP. Hrm. THAT is an issue worth discussing with smart 
people.

> 
>> Otherwise, have you created a JMRPP account with them and are you getting 
>> complaints?
> 
> Yes, that is exactly why/how I received them.  I'm simply surprised
> that the rfc1918 space is contained in the subject.

Yeah. Kinda weird. 

laura 

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Re: [mailop] Hotmail/Microsoft Contact Available?

[Jim Popovitch]

On Thu, Sep 3, 2015 at 2:07 PM, Laura Atkins  wrote:
>>
>> I'm seeing it for confirmed-opt-in list subscribers using
>> hotmail/live/outlook addrs.
>>
>> And the beauty is I'm getting mailbombed by MS about 1918 addrs:
>>
>>From: st...@hotmail.com
>>To: postmas...@domainmail.org
>>Subject:  complaint about message from 10.162.145.146
>
> Are those complaints or are they DMARC notices?

complaints, en mass, by a n00b who just returned from vacation and
decided to expeditiously clear out his inbox.  :-)   He subscribed to
a list on 07-Aug using an outlook.com addr, and again on 27-Aug using
a @yahoo.com addr from a Comcast IP (73.53.12.230).

> From discussions in other places, it seems Microsoft is doing an internal 
> handoff that’s breaking authentication and a lot of messages are coming back 
> as “unauthenticated” or “SPF fail.” This is the kind of message I would 
> expect if they’ve really broken things and are actually sending out DMARC 
> failure notices.

The only MS text is "complaint about message from 10.162.145.[0-9]+" ,
everything else looks normal and good.

> Otherwise, have you created a JMRPP account with them and are you getting 
> complaints?

Yes, that is exactly why/how I received them.  I'm simply surprised
that the rfc1918 space is contained in the subject.

-Jim P.

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Re: [mailop] Hotmail/Microsoft/Outlook - getting their attention

[Laura Atkins]

> On Sep 3, 2015, at 11:11 AM, Brian Curry  wrote:
> 
> Agreed that legal action seems a bit extreme. I am taking the approach that 
> Microsoft/Hotmail saw something that said spam was being sent and we need to 
> work to correct this.
>  
> I am taking an aggressive approach with the IP to pull way back and the 
> recipients that are being sent and monitoring SNDS and complaints like crazy 
> and in the last 5 months I just keep getting:
>  
> We have reviewed your IP (xxx.xxx.xxx.xx) and determined that messages are 
> being filtered (i.e. sent to the Junk folder) based on the recommendations of 
> the SmartScreen 
> ®
>  Filter.
> Email filtering is based on many factors, but primarily it's due to mail 
> content and recipient interaction with that mail.  Because of the proprietary 
> nature of SmartScreen® and because SmartScreen® Filter technology is always 
> adapting and learning more about what is and isn't unwanted mail, it is not 
> possible for us to offer specific advice about improving your mail content. 
> However, in general SmartScreen® Filter evaluates specific words or 
> characteristics from each e-mail message and weights them, based on their 
> likelihood to indicate that a message is unwanted or legitimate mail. 
> Unfortunately, after reviewing the information you provided and in compliance 
> with our mail policies, we are unable to offer immediate mitigation for your 
> deliverability issue. However, we have some specific recommendations for you 
> to consider that can help you to improve deliverability over time.
>  
> Or:
>  
> My name is x and I work with the Outlook.com Deliverability Support Team.
> We understand that you have additional questions regarding how to improve the 
> content of your mail and, thereby, improve deliverability of your email to 
> Outlook.com users. 
> For your background, deliverability to a user's inbox is based on many 
> factors including the reputation of the sending IP(s), the format of the mail 
> and also user settings and preferences.
> After reviewing your case, I have some additional suggestions for you to 
> consider that may assist you in the future with avoiding the deliverability 
> issue you've been experiencing.
>  
> Not looking for a miracle fix, but somewhere to have a real conversation to 
> fix the issues for both sides.

We’ve done a lot of work with companies over the years and have found that 
conversations are really not necessary to fix these kinds of delivery issues. 
If you’ve been having ongoing problems, for months, then it’s likely there is 
something with your address collection / permission / expectation setting 
process and you need to look harder at your processes. There was also one case 
where the problem was actually the sender wasn’t signed up for the FBL. Signed 
up for it, and delivery issues were fixed. 

While I don’t always agree with filtering decisions, my experience is that the 
ISPs are generally unwilling to discuss specifics about a particular senders’ 
reputation. But, it is very possible to repair your reputation (and thus your 
inbox delivery) without having the ISPs tell you “Do X, Do Y, Do Z.” We’ve been 
doing it with clients for over a decade now. 

laura 

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Re: [mailop] Hotmail/Microsoft/Outlook - getting their attention

[Gil Bahat]

Perhaps they are suggesting that the process itself needs improvement,
rather than the immediate problem being solved up until the next one.

my personal experience has been somewhat of a toss: At times I have been
able to escalate a noticeable problem to qualified engineers (which happen
to be familiar names on this list, so I didn't need the list) and at other
times (e.g. trying to report a broken DMARC forwarding setup between two
different machines at MS, btw still an open issue) I just couldn't get past
first level tech support...



On Thu, Sep 3, 2015 at 9:13 PM, Michael Wise 
wrote:

> Why do people always redact the critical details?
>
> I keep looking up xxx.xxx.xxx.xxx in the tools, and it keeps telling me
> I’ve made an error.
>
>
>
> Aloha,
>
> Michael.
>
> --
>
> *Michael J Wise* | Microsoft | Spam Analysis | "Your Spam Specimen Has
> Been Processed." | Got the Junk Mail Reporting Tool
>  ?
>
>
>
> *From:* Brian Curry [mailto:bcu...@merkleinc.com]
> *Sent:* Thursday, September 3, 2015 11:11 AM
> *To:* Michael Wise ; Marc Perkel <
> supp...@junkemailfilter.com>; mailop@mailop.org
> *Subject:* RE: [mailop] Hotmail/Microsoft/Outlook - getting their
> attention
>
>
>
> Agreed that legal action seems a bit extreme. I am taking the approach
> that Microsoft/Hotmail saw something that said spam was being sent and we
> need to work to correct this.
>
>
>
> I am taking an aggressive approach with the IP to pull way back and the
> recipients that are being sent and monitoring SNDS and complaints like
> crazy and in the last 5 months I just keep getting:
>
>
>
> We have reviewed your IP (*xxx.xxx.xxx.xx*) and determined that messages
> are being filtered (i.e. sent to the Junk folder) based on the
> recommendations of the SmartScreen
> ®
> Filter.
>
> Email filtering is based on many factors, but primarily it's due to mail
> content and recipient interaction with that mail.  Because of the
> proprietary nature of SmartScreen® and because SmartScreen® Filter
> technology is always adapting and learning more about what is and isn't
> unwanted mail, it is not possible for us to offer specific advice about
> improving your mail content. However, in general SmartScreen® Filter
> evaluates specific words or characteristics from each e-mail message and
> weights them, based on their likelihood to indicate that a message is
> unwanted or legitimate mail.
>
> Unfortunately, after reviewing the information you provided and in
> compliance with our mail policies, we are unable to offer immediate
> mitigation for your deliverability issue. However, we have some specific
> recommendations for you to consider that can help you to improve
> deliverability over time.
>
>
>
> Or:
>
>
>
> My name is x and I work with the Outlook.com Deliverability Support
> Team.
>
> We understand that you have additional questions regarding how to improve
> the content of your mail and, thereby, improve deliverability of your email
> to Outlook.com users.
>
> For your background, deliverability to a user's inbox is based on many
> factors including the reputation of the sending IP(s), the format of the
> mail and also user settings and preferences.
>
> After reviewing your case, I have some additional suggestions for you to
> consider that may assist you in the future with avoiding the deliverability
> issue you've been experiencing.
>
>
>
> Not looking for a miracle fix, but somewhere to have a real conversation
> to fix the issues for both sides.
>
>
>
>
>
> Brian Curry
>
> Manager of Deliverability, Digital Messaging
>
> Merkle Inc.
>
>
>
> *From:* mailop [mailto:mailop-boun...@mailop.org
> ] *On Behalf Of *Michael Wise
> *Sent:* Thursday, September 03, 2015 11:38 AM
> *To:* Marc Perkel; mailop@mailop.org
> *Subject:* Re: [mailop] Hotmail/Microsoft/Outlook - getting their
> attention
>
>
>
> When you get LCA involved, or even mention them, things grind to a
> complete halt.
>
> Aloha,
> Michael.
> --
> Sent from my Windows Phone
> --
>
> *From: *Marc Perkel 
> *Sent: *‎9/‎3/‎2015 10:25 AM
> *To: *mailop@mailop.org
> *Subject: *Re: [mailop] Hotmail/Microsoft/Outlook - getting their
> attention
>
> I've had some luck before doing extreme things to get their attention.
> And keep in mind this suggestion is aimed to get their attention.
>
> Lawyers for big corps are generally smart and if someone points out to
> them an issue they can often deal with it before it becomes a lawsuit.
> Same it true of negative publicity. Sales teams can often bring pressure
> to tech staff if the product isn't working and getting bad pres

Re: [mailop] Hotmail/Microsoft Contact Available?

[Laura Atkins]

> On Sep 3, 2015, at 11:15 AM, Gil Bahat  wrote:
> 
> This looks like the format for FBL complaints and not DMARC complaints. Note 
> the IP however is in the private use 10.0.0.0/8  block, 
> which means something is not correct with the setup.

Something is definitely broken, there’s no question about it. That is a private 
IP, which is why I thought it might be an issue with the (currently broken) 
internal forwarding. I guess it could still be the broken forwarder, and the 
complaint is actually about the originating IP (which belongs to Jim’s network 
and is on his FBL setup with MS) but pulling the wrong (MS assigned 10.* IP) 
out of the message and throwing it in the subject line. 

> when you get an FBL complaint, you also get a redacted copy of the email. can 
> you trace back and see if these are indeed your own, or someone else's, or 
> have a forged receive chain perhaps?

Very good advice. 

laura 

> 
> On Thu, Sep 3, 2015 at 9:07 PM, Laura Atkins  > wrote:
> 
> > On Sep 3, 2015, at 8:05 AM, Jim Popovitch  > > wrote:
> >
> > On Thu, Sep 3, 2015 at 10:49 AM, Marc Perkel
> > mailto:supp...@junkemailfilter.com>> wrote:
> >> Hi Brian,
> >>
> >> I'm having problem with Microsoft too. It's just plain weird. Sometimes it
> >> takes 6 hours to deliver an email. And I can't quite understand what is
> >> happening.
> 
> 6 hours happens. Mail is store and forward, not immediate delivery.
> 
> >>
> >> I'm in the front end spam filtering business. Email comes to me - I clean 
> >> it
> >> - and then forward it on to the recipient's server. That includes many
> >> domains hosted at outlook.com . I'm having this 
> >> problem with all domains
> >> hosted there and only there.
> >>
> >> Who else is seeing this?
> >
> > I'm seeing it for confirmed-opt-in list subscribers using
> > hotmail/live/outlook addrs.
> >
> > And the beauty is I'm getting mailbombed by MS about 1918 addrs:
> >
> >From: st...@hotmail.com 
> >To: postmas...@domainmail.org 
> >Subject:  complaint about message from 10.162.145.146
> 
> Are those complaints or are they DMARC notices?
> 
> From discussions in other places, it seems Microsoft is doing an internal 
> handoff that’s breaking authentication and a lot of messages are coming back 
> as “unauthenticated” or “SPF fail.” This is the kind of message I would 
> expect if they’ve really broken things and are actually sending out DMARC 
> failure notices.
> 
> Otherwise, have you created a JMRPP account with them and are you getting 
> complaints? If you haven’t something is really broken. I’d use the publicly 
> available postmaster pages to get a ticket opened. If that ticket doesn’t 
> work, there are a couple MS employees on the list who may be able to help you 
> more directly.
> 
> laura
> 
> 
> --
> Having an Email Crisis?  800 823-9674
> 
> Laura Atkins
> Word to the Wise
> la...@wordtothewise.com 
> (650) 437-0741
> 
> Email Delivery Blog: http://wordtothewise.com/blog 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ___
> mailop mailing list
> mailop@mailop.org 
> http://chilli.nosignal.org/mailman/listinfo/mailop 
> 
> 

-- 
Having an Email Crisis?  800 823-9674 

Laura Atkins
Word to the Wise
la...@wordtothewise.com
(650) 437-0741  

Email Delivery Blog: http://wordtothewise.com/blog  





___
mailop mailing list
mailop@mailop.org
http://chilli.nosignal.org/mailman/listinfo/mailop

Re: [mailop] Hotmail/Microsoft Contact Available?

[Gil Bahat]

This looks like the format for FBL complaints and not DMARC complaints.
Note the IP however is in the private use 10.0.0.0/8 block, which means
something is not correct with the setup.

when you get an FBL complaint, you also get a redacted copy of the email.
can you trace back and see if these are indeed your own, or someone else's,
or have a forged receive chain perhaps?

On Thu, Sep 3, 2015 at 9:07 PM, Laura Atkins 
wrote:

>
> > On Sep 3, 2015, at 8:05 AM, Jim Popovitch  wrote:
> >
> > On Thu, Sep 3, 2015 at 10:49 AM, Marc Perkel
> >  wrote:
> >> Hi Brian,
> >>
> >> I'm having problem with Microsoft too. It's just plain weird. Sometimes
> it
> >> takes 6 hours to deliver an email. And I can't quite understand what is
> >> happening.
>
> 6 hours happens. Mail is store and forward, not immediate delivery.
>
> >>
> >> I'm in the front end spam filtering business. Email comes to me - I
> clean it
> >> - and then forward it on to the recipient's server. That includes many
> >> domains hosted at outlook.com. I'm having this problem with all domains
> >> hosted there and only there.
> >>
> >> Who else is seeing this?
> >
> > I'm seeing it for confirmed-opt-in list subscribers using
> > hotmail/live/outlook addrs.
> >
> > And the beauty is I'm getting mailbombed by MS about 1918 addrs:
> >
> >From: st...@hotmail.com
> >To: postmas...@domainmail.org
> >Subject:  complaint about message from 10.162.145.146
>
> Are those complaints or are they DMARC notices?
>
> From discussions in other places, it seems Microsoft is doing an internal
> handoff that’s breaking authentication and a lot of messages are coming
> back as “unauthenticated” or “SPF fail.” This is the kind of message I
> would expect if they’ve really broken things and are actually sending out
> DMARC failure notices.
>
> Otherwise, have you created a JMRPP account with them and are you getting
> complaints? If you haven’t something is really broken. I’d use the publicly
> available postmaster pages to get a ticket opened. If that ticket doesn’t
> work, there are a couple MS employees on the list who may be able to help
> you more directly.
>
> laura
>
>
> --
> Having an Email Crisis?  800 823-9674
>
> Laura Atkins
> Word to the Wise
> la...@wordtothewise.com
> (650) 437-0741
>
> Email Delivery Blog: http://wordtothewise.com/blog
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ___
> mailop mailing list
> mailop@mailop.org
> http://chilli.nosignal.org/mailman/listinfo/mailop
>
___
mailop mailing list
mailop@mailop.org
http://chilli.nosignal.org/mailman/listinfo/mailop

Re: [mailop] Hotmail/Microsoft/Outlook - getting their attention

[Michael Wise]

Why do people always redact the critical details?
I keep looking up xxx.xxx.xxx.xxx in the tools, and it keeps telling me I’ve 
made an error.

Aloha,
Michael.
--
Michael J Wise | Microsoft | Spam Analysis | "Your Spam Specimen Has Been 
Processed." | Got the Junk Mail Reporting 
Tool ?

From: Brian Curry [mailto:bcu...@merkleinc.com]
Sent: Thursday, September 3, 2015 11:11 AM
To: Michael Wise ; Marc Perkel 
; mailop@mailop.org
Subject: RE: [mailop] Hotmail/Microsoft/Outlook - getting their attention

Agreed that legal action seems a bit extreme. I am taking the approach that 
Microsoft/Hotmail saw something that said spam was being sent and we need to 
work to correct this.

I am taking an aggressive approach with the IP to pull way back and the 
recipients that are being sent and monitoring SNDS and complaints like crazy 
and in the last 5 months I just keep getting:


We have reviewed your IP (xxx.xxx.xxx.xx) and determined that messages are 
being filtered (i.e. sent to the Junk folder) based on the recommendations of 
the 
SmartScreen®
 Filter.

Email filtering is based on many factors, but primarily it's due to mail 
content and recipient interaction with that mail.  Because of the proprietary 
nature of SmartScreen® and because SmartScreen® Filter technology is always 
adapting and learning more about what is and isn't unwanted mail, it is not 
possible for us to offer specific advice about improving your mail content. 
However, in general SmartScreen® Filter evaluates specific words or 
characteristics from each e-mail message and weights them, based on their 
likelihood to indicate that a message is unwanted or legitimate mail.

Unfortunately, after reviewing the information you provided and in compliance 
with our mail policies, we are unable to offer immediate mitigation for your 
deliverability issue. However, we have some specific recommendations for you to 
consider that can help you to improve deliverability over time.



Or:


My name is x and I work with the Outlook.com Deliverability Support Team.

We understand that you have additional questions regarding how to improve the 
content of your mail and, thereby, improve deliverability of your email to 
Outlook.com users.

For your background, deliverability to a user's inbox is based on many factors 
including the reputation of the sending IP(s), the format of the mail and also 
user settings and preferences.

After reviewing your case, I have some additional suggestions for you to 
consider that may assist you in the future with avoiding the deliverability 
issue you've been experiencing.



Not looking for a miracle fix, but somewhere to have a real conversation to fix 
the issues for both sides.


Brian Curry
Manager of Deliverability, Digital Messaging
Merkle Inc.

From: mailop [mailto:mailop-boun...@mailop.org] On Behalf Of Michael Wise
Sent: Thursday, September 03, 2015 11:38 AM
To: Marc Perkel; mailop@mailop.org
Subject: Re: [mailop] Hotmail/Microsoft/Outlook - getting their attention

When you get LCA involved, or even mention them, things grind to a complete 
halt.

Aloha,
Michael.
--
Sent from my Windows Phone

From: Marc Perkel
Sent: ‎9/‎3/‎2015 10:25 AM
To: mailop@mailop.org
Subject: Re: [mailop] Hotmail/Microsoft/Outlook - getting their attention
I've had some luck before doing extreme things to get their attention.
And keep in mind this suggestion is aimed to get their attention.

Lawyers for big corps are generally smart and if someone points out to
them an issue they can often deal with it before it becomes a lawsuit.
Same it true of negative publicity. Sales teams can often bring pressure
to tech staff if the product isn't working and getting bad press.

Yes - ISPs are immune unless they are deliberately doing things that
would be in the class of "unfair competition" to drive other companies
out of business. (i.e. Netscape). So actually winning a suit would be
against the odds. Getting their attention to fix it - somewhat more
likely. And all that costs is an hour of my time and a stamp.


On 09/03/15 10:07, Anne Mitchell wrote:
>> And as someone who's job it is to stop spam, do you really want a lawsuit to 
>> find that a mail service has to accept mail from someone else?
> Not to mention that Federal law specifically exempts ISPs from any liability 
> for acceptance/delivery decisions they make.  Federal law specifically states 
> that ISPs can refuse your email for any reason, or no reason at all.
>
> Anne
>
> An

Re: [mailop] Hotmail/Microsoft/Outlook - getting their attention

[Brian Curry]

Agreed that legal action seems a bit extreme. I am taking the approach that 
Microsoft/Hotmail saw something that said spam was being sent and we need to 
work to correct this.

I am taking an aggressive approach with the IP to pull way back and the 
recipients that are being sent and monitoring SNDS and complaints like crazy 
and in the last 5 months I just keep getting:


We have reviewed your IP (xxx.xxx.xxx.xx) and determined that messages are 
being filtered (i.e. sent to the Junk folder) based on the recommendations of 
the 
SmartScreen®
 Filter.

Email filtering is based on many factors, but primarily it's due to mail 
content and recipient interaction with that mail.  Because of the proprietary 
nature of SmartScreen® and because SmartScreen® Filter technology is always 
adapting and learning more about what is and isn't unwanted mail, it is not 
possible for us to offer specific advice about improving your mail content. 
However, in general SmartScreen® Filter evaluates specific words or 
characteristics from each e-mail message and weights them, based on their 
likelihood to indicate that a message is unwanted or legitimate mail.

Unfortunately, after reviewing the information you provided and in compliance 
with our mail policies, we are unable to offer immediate mitigation for your 
deliverability issue. However, we have some specific recommendations for you to 
consider that can help you to improve deliverability over time.



Or:


My name is x and I work with the Outlook.com Deliverability Support Team.

We understand that you have additional questions regarding how to improve the 
content of your mail and, thereby, improve deliverability of your email to 
Outlook.com users.

For your background, deliverability to a user's inbox is based on many factors 
including the reputation of the sending IP(s), the format of the mail and also 
user settings and preferences.

After reviewing your case, I have some additional suggestions for you to 
consider that may assist you in the future with avoiding the deliverability 
issue you've been experiencing.



Not looking for a miracle fix, but somewhere to have a real conversation to fix 
the issues for both sides.


Brian Curry
Manager of Deliverability, Digital Messaging
Merkle Inc.

From: mailop [mailto:mailop-boun...@mailop.org] On Behalf Of Michael Wise
Sent: Thursday, September 03, 2015 11:38 AM
To: Marc Perkel; mailop@mailop.org
Subject: Re: [mailop] Hotmail/Microsoft/Outlook - getting their attention

When you get LCA involved, or even mention them, things grind to a complete 
halt.

Aloha,
Michael.
--
Sent from my Windows Phone

From: Marc Perkel
Sent: ‎9/‎3/‎2015 10:25 AM
To: mailop@mailop.org
Subject: Re: [mailop] Hotmail/Microsoft/Outlook - getting their attention
I've had some luck before doing extreme things to get their attention.
And keep in mind this suggestion is aimed to get their attention.

Lawyers for big corps are generally smart and if someone points out to
them an issue they can often deal with it before it becomes a lawsuit.
Same it true of negative publicity. Sales teams can often bring pressure
to tech staff if the product isn't working and getting bad press.

Yes - ISPs are immune unless they are deliberately doing things that
would be in the class of "unfair competition" to drive other companies
out of business. (i.e. Netscape). So actually winning a suit would be
against the odds. Getting their attention to fix it - somewhat more
likely. And all that costs is an hour of my time and a stamp.


On 09/03/15 10:07, Anne Mitchell wrote:
>> And as someone who's job it is to stop spam, do you really want a lawsuit to 
>> find that a mail service has to accept mail from someone else?
> Not to mention that Federal law specifically exempts ISPs from any liability 
> for acceptance/delivery decisions they make.  Federal law specifically states 
> that ISPs can refuse your email for any reason, or no reason at all.
>
> Anne
>
> Anne P. Mitchell,
> Attorney at Law
> CEO/President
> ISIPP SuretyMail Email Reputation, Accreditation & Certification
> Your mail system + SuretyMail accreditation = delivered to their inbox!
> Figure Out if It's Worth It: 
> https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3a%2f%2fwww.isipp.com%2ffree-tools%2froi-calculator%2f&data=01%7c01%7cmichael.wise%40microsoft.com%7c93fad3f60c784b14c55d08d2b484afae%7c72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7c1&sdata=qT2me0029ndJmtSIFCYvEpmpqCIKy4GsqQsYG5ZtMCQ%3d
> https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3a%2f%2fwww.SuretyMail.com%2f&data=01%7c01%7cmichael.wise%40microsoft.com%7c93fad3f60c784b14c55d08d2b484afae%7c72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7c1&sdata=Ja1qpl4qhqMD7%2f73EBwvitAZgu8FVRaV%2f6pxPpqdc0o%3d
> https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3a%2

Re: [mailop] Hotmail/Microsoft/Outlook - getting their attention

[Gil Bahat]

I wish I had an error message other than the regular/occasional 550 mailbox
unavailable.

I do have one gun that has a wisp of smoke to it: when analyzing FBL
complaints, an overwhelmingly large amount of them (~70% ballpark or so I
believe) are ex post factum FBL complaints coming in bulk: a given user
simply marks a large amount of emails (say from 2 to 10) and marks them all
as spam. I've been getting these for up to 2 months backwards. I have
nicknamed the phenomena 'Complaint amplification'.

the reason I doubt it explains anything is because our complaint rate
should be very very low either way.

On Thu, Sep 3, 2015 at 9:01 PM, Anne Mitchell  wrote:

> If someone can send me actual error messages, along with the IP address
> from which you are sending, we'll see what we can do.
>
> Anne
>
> Anne P. Mitchell,
> Attorney at Law
> CEO/President
> ISIPP SuretyMail Email Reputation, Accreditation & Certification
> Your mail system + SuretyMail accreditation = delivered to their inbox!
> Figure Out if It's Worth It:
> http://www.isipp.com/free-tools/roi-calculator/
> http://www.SuretyMail.com/
> http://www.SuretyMail.eu/
>
> Author: Section 6 of the CAN-SPAM Act of 2003 (the Federal anti-spam law)
> Member, California Bar Cyberspace Law Committee
> Member, Colorado Cybersecurity Consortium
> Ret. Professor of Law, Lincoln Law School of San Jose
> 303-731-2121 | amitch...@isipp.com | @AnnePMitchell
> Facebook/AnnePMitchell  | LinkedIn/in/annemitchell
>
>
> ___
> mailop mailing list
> mailop@mailop.org
> http://chilli.nosignal.org/mailman/listinfo/mailop
>
___
mailop mailing list
mailop@mailop.org
http://chilli.nosignal.org/mailman/listinfo/mailop

Re: [mailop] Hotmail/Microsoft/Outlook - getting their attention

[Michael Wise]

Can your filter handle billions of pieces of email a day, across tens of 
thousands of servers?
And would your sanity survive the Microsoft Development process for such 
services?
The last one is probably the bigger issue, trust me on this.

To answer your question, you probably already have the answer; all requests 
need to go thru the front door located here:

http://mail.live.com/mail/troubleshooting.aspx

They will be automatically triaged, and if necessary reviewed by a human, and 
possibly subject to escalation.

Aloha,
Michael.
--
Michael J Wise | Microsoft | Spam Analysis | "Your Spam Specimen Has Been 
Processed." | Got the Junk Mail Reporting 
Tool ?

From: Marc Perkel [mailto:supp...@junkemailfilter.com]
Sent: Thursday, September 3, 2015 10:42 AM
To: Michael Wise ; mailop@mailop.org
Subject: Re: [mailop] Hotmail/Microsoft/Outlook - getting their attention

Does anyone have any suggestions about how to get their attention and fix their 
problem?

I'd be happy to replace their lame spam filtering with mine. :)
On 09/03/15 10:37, Michael Wise wrote:
When you get LCA involved, or even mention them, things grind to a complete 
halt.

Aloha,
Michael.
--
Sent from my Windows Phone

From: Marc Perkel
Sent: ‎9/‎3/‎2015 10:25 AM
To: mailop@mailop.org
Subject: Re: [mailop] Hotmail/Microsoft/Outlook - getting their attention
I've had some luck before doing extreme things to get their attention.
And keep in mind this suggestion is aimed to get their attention.

Lawyers for big corps are generally smart and if someone points out to
them an issue they can often deal with it before it becomes a lawsuit.
Same it true of negative publicity. Sales teams can often bring pressure
to tech staff if the product isn't working and getting bad press.

Yes - ISPs are immune unless they are deliberately doing things that
would be in the class of "unfair competition" to drive other companies
out of business. (i.e. Netscape). So actually winning a suit would be
against the odds. Getting their attention to fix it - somewhat more
likely. And all that costs is an hour of my time and a stamp.


On 09/03/15 10:07, Anne Mitchell wrote:
>> And as someone who's job it is to stop spam, do you really want a lawsuit to 
>> find that a mail service has to accept mail from someone else?
> Not to mention that Federal law specifically exempts ISPs from any liability 
> for acceptance/delivery decisions they make.  Federal law specifically states 
> that ISPs can refuse your email for any reason, or no reason at all.
>
> Anne
>
> Anne P. Mitchell,
> Attorney at Law
> CEO/President
> ISIPP SuretyMail Email Reputation, Accreditation & Certification
> Your mail system + SuretyMail accreditation = delivered to their inbox!
> Figure Out if It's Worth It: 
> https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3a%2f%2fwww.isipp.com%2ffree-tools%2froi-calculator%2f&data=01%7c01%7cmichael.wise%40microsoft.com%7c93fad3f60c784b14c55d08d2b484afae%7c72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7c1&sdata=qT2me0029ndJmtSIFCYvEpmpqCIKy4GsqQsYG5ZtMCQ%3d
> https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3a%2f%2fwww.SuretyMail.com%2f&data=01%7c01%7cmichael.wise%40microsoft.com%7c93fad3f60c784b14c55d08d2b484afae%7c72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7c1&sdata=Ja1qpl4qhqMD7%2f73EBwvitAZgu8FVRaV%2f6pxPpqdc0o%3d
> https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3a%2f%2fwww.SuretyMail.eu%2f&data=01%7c01%7cmichael.wise%40microsoft.com%7c93fad3f60c784b14c55d08d2b484afae%7c72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7c1&sdata=WECDwFk9k2Mp0GDfjJj2Rlly0b8irwI1xarY%2bDiEqk0%3d
>
> Author: Section 6 of the CAN-SPAM Act of 2003 (the Federal anti-spam law)
> Member, California Bar Cyberspace Law Committee
> Member, Colorado Cybersecurity Consortium
> Ret. Professor of Law, Lincoln Law School of San Jose
> 303-731-2121 | amitch...@isipp.com | 
> @AnnePMitchell
> Facebook/AnnePMitchell  | LinkedIn/in/annemitchell
>
>
>
> ___
> mailop mailing list
> mailop@mailop.org
> https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3a%2f%2fchilli.nosignal.org%2fmailman%2flistinfo%2fmailop&data=01%7c01%7cmichael.wise%40microsoft.com%7c93fad3f60c784b14c55d08d2b484afae%7c72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7c1&sdata=zKUtbAc5dlB2YoC4OLX%2bZOeJfsBh4UAHPkY68hZW70s%3d
>
>
>

--
Marc Perkel - Sales/Support
supp...@junkemailfilter.com
https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3a%2f%2fwww.junkemailfilter.com&data=01%7c01%7cmichael.wise%40microsoft.com%7c93fad3f60c784b14c55d08d2b484afae%7c72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7c1&sdata=aDGXUYFMEZUZDQpWX3lpE6E6ghEHUizAxMk9pWtSY%2bI%3d
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Re: [mailop] Introductions and white listing

[Gil Bahat]

Welcome to the list Marc,

I'll vouch for Marc on being a long time in the filtering business and
being very reasonable to deal with.
For some things, I guess numbers can speak better than words so I offer
these two links:

https://www.intra2net.com/en/support/antispam/blacklist.php_dnsbl=RCVD_IN_JMF_BL.html
https://www.intra2net.com/en/support/antispam/blacklist.php_dnsbl=RCVD_IN_JMF_WHITE.html

from the independent anti-spam testing corpus at intra2net, which is (imho)
a great resource.

Regards,

Gil Bahat,
DevOps/Postmaster,
Magisto Ltd.

On Thu, Sep 3, 2015 at 8:57 PM, Marc Perkel 
wrote:

> I suppose I should introduce myself as I'm new to the list.
>
> I'm Marc Perkel. My service is Junk Email Filter. The name says it all. We
> do front end spam filtering, outbound spam filtering, and email hosting.
>
> Glad to be part of this list. Thanks for including me.
>
> And - assuming people on this list all hate spam and want their good email
> delivered - email me privately and I'll get you white listed, or at least
> yellow listed. (yellow means that you send some spam but it keeps you from
> being blacklisted - yahoo, gmail, hotmail - yellow list.) Can list by host
> name (preferred). ex. *.outlook.com FCRDNS required.
>
> And - if you want - feel free to use our DNSBL/DNSWL lists to block
> spam/pass ham.
>
> http://wiki.junkemailfilter.com/index.php/Spam_DNS_Lists
>
> --
> Marc Perkel - Sales/Support
> supp...@junkemailfilter.com
> http://www.junkemailfilter.com
> Junk Email Filter dot com
> 415-992-3400
>
>
> ___
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Re: [mailop] Hotmail/Microsoft Contact Available?

[Laura Atkins]

> On Sep 3, 2015, at 8:05 AM, Jim Popovitch  wrote:
> 
> On Thu, Sep 3, 2015 at 10:49 AM, Marc Perkel
>  wrote:
>> Hi Brian,
>> 
>> I'm having problem with Microsoft too. It's just plain weird. Sometimes it
>> takes 6 hours to deliver an email. And I can't quite understand what is
>> happening.

6 hours happens. Mail is store and forward, not immediate delivery. 

>> 
>> I'm in the front end spam filtering business. Email comes to me - I clean it
>> - and then forward it on to the recipient's server. That includes many
>> domains hosted at outlook.com. I'm having this problem with all domains
>> hosted there and only there.
>> 
>> Who else is seeing this?
> 
> I'm seeing it for confirmed-opt-in list subscribers using
> hotmail/live/outlook addrs.
> 
> And the beauty is I'm getting mailbombed by MS about 1918 addrs:
> 
>From: st...@hotmail.com
>To: postmas...@domainmail.org
>Subject:  complaint about message from 10.162.145.146

Are those complaints or are they DMARC notices? 

From discussions in other places, it seems Microsoft is doing an internal 
handoff that’s breaking authentication and a lot of messages are coming back as 
“unauthenticated” or “SPF fail.” This is the kind of message I would expect if 
they’ve really broken things and are actually sending out DMARC failure notices.

Otherwise, have you created a JMRPP account with them and are you getting 
complaints? If you haven’t something is really broken. I’d use the publicly 
available postmaster pages to get a ticket opened. If that ticket doesn’t work, 
there are a couple MS employees on the list who may be able to help you more 
directly. 

laura 


-- 
Having an Email Crisis?  800 823-9674 

Laura Atkins
Word to the Wise
la...@wordtothewise.com
(650) 437-0741  

Email Delivery Blog: http://wordtothewise.com/blog  






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Re: [mailop] Hotmail/Microsoft/Outlook - getting their attention

[Luke Martinez]

A while back I told a representative that our new suggestion for senders
dealing with unwarranted filtering is to tell their recipients to migrate
to gmail or yahoo mailboxes. It actually got the ticket escalated and the
filtering resolved. It felt incredibly childish. But the truth is, if
non-transactional mail is being filtered at MS, there is simply no
recourse. No matter how much data or context you provide, the only response
you get is:

"We have reviewed your IP(s) and determined that messages are being
filtered (i.e. sent to the Junk folder) based on the recommendations of the
SmartScreen

® Filter."

Super frustrating.

On Thu, Sep 3, 2015 at 11:42 AM, Marc Perkel 
wrote:

> Does anyone have any suggestions about how to get their attention and fix
> their problem?
>
> I'd be happy to replace their lame spam filtering with mine. :)
>
>
> On 09/03/15 10:37, Michael Wise wrote:
>
> When you get LCA involved, or even mention them, things grind to a
> complete halt.
>
> Aloha,
> Michael.
> --
> Sent from my Windows Phone
> --
> From: Marc Perkel 
> Sent: ‎9/‎3/‎2015 10:25 AM
> To: mailop@mailop.org
> Subject: Re: [mailop] Hotmail/Microsoft/Outlook - getting their attention
>
> I've had some luck before doing extreme things to get their attention.
> And keep in mind this suggestion is aimed to get their attention.
>
> Lawyers for big corps are generally smart and if someone points out to
> them an issue they can often deal with it before it becomes a lawsuit.
> Same it true of negative publicity. Sales teams can often bring pressure
> to tech staff if the product isn't working and getting bad press.
>
> Yes - ISPs are immune unless they are deliberately doing things that
> would be in the class of "unfair competition" to drive other companies
> out of business. (i.e. Netscape). So actually winning a suit would be
> against the odds. Getting their attention to fix it - somewhat more
> likely. And all that costs is an hour of my time and a stamp.
>
>
> On 09/03/15 10:07, Anne Mitchell wrote:
> >> And as someone who's job it is to stop spam, do you really want a
> lawsuit to find that a mail service has to accept mail from someone else?
> > Not to mention that Federal law specifically exempts ISPs from any
> liability for acceptance/delivery decisions they make.  Federal law
> specifically states that ISPs can refuse your email for any reason, or no
> reason at all.
> >
> > Anne
> >
> > Anne P. Mitchell,
> > Attorney at Law
> > CEO/President
> > ISIPP SuretyMail Email Reputation, Accreditation & Certification
> > Your mail system + SuretyMail accreditation = delivered to their inbox!
> > Figure Out if It's Worth It:
> https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3a%2f%2fwww.isipp.com%2ffree-tools%2froi-calculator%2f&data=01%7c01%7cmichael.wise%40microsoft.com%7c93fad3f60c784b14c55d08d2b484afae%7c72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7c1&sdata=qT2me0029ndJmtSIFCYvEpmpqCIKy4GsqQsYG5ZtMCQ%3d
> >
> https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3a%2f%2fwww.SuretyMail.com%2f&data=01%7c01%7cmichael.wise%40microsoft.com%7c93fad3f60c784b14c55d08d2b484afae%7c72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7c1&sdata=Ja1qpl4qhqMD7%2f73EBwvitAZgu8FVRaV%2f6pxPpqdc0o%3d
> >
> https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3a%2f%2fwww.SuretyMail.eu%2f&data=01%7c01%7cmichael.wise%40microsoft.com%7c93fad3f60c784b14c55d08d2b484afae%7c72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7c1&sdata=WECDwFk9k2Mp0GDfjJj2Rlly0b8irwI1xarY%2bDiEqk0%3d
> >
> > Author: Section 6 of the CAN-SPAM Act of 2003 (the Federal anti-spam law)
> > Member, California Bar Cyberspace Law Committee
> > Member, Colorado Cybersecurity Consortium
> > Ret. Professor of Law, Lincoln Law School of San Jose
> > 303-731-2121 | amitch...@isipp.com | @AnnePMitchell
> > Facebook/AnnePMitchell  | LinkedIn/in/annemitchell
> >
> >
> >
> > ___
> > mailop mailing list
> > mailop@mailop.org
> >
> https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3a%2f%2fchilli.nosignal.org%2fmailman%2flistinfo%2fmailop&data=01%7c01%7cmichael.wise%40microsoft.com%7c93fad3f60c784b14c55d08d2b484afae%7c72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7c1&sdata=zKUtbAc5dlB2YoC4OLX%2bZOeJfsBh4UAHPkY68hZW70s%3d
> >
> >
> >
>
> --
> Marc Perkel - Sales/Support
> supp...@junkemailfilter.com
>
> https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3a%2f%2fwww.junkemailfilter.com&data=01%7c01%7cmichael.wise%40microsoft.com%7c93fad3f60c784b14c55d08d2b484afae%7c72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7c1&sdata=aDGXUYFMEZUZDQpWX3lpE6E6ghEHUizAxMk9pWtSY%2bI%3d
> Junk Email Filter dot com
> 415-992-3400
>
>
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> mailop@mailop.org
>
> https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3a%2f%2fchilli.nosignal.org%2fmailman%2flistinfo%2fmailop&data=01%7c01%7cmichael.wise%40microsoft.com%7

Re: [mailop] Hotmail/Microsoft/Outlook - getting their attention

[Michael Wise]

You need to understand perfectly .. that it doesn't matter.

It's like asking to speak to a lawyer when you are being "Questioned" by the 
Police... it means an automatic arrest.

Aloha,
Michael.
-- 
Michael J Wise | Microsoft | Spam Analysis | "Your Spam Specimen Has Been 
Processed." | Got the Junk Mail Reporting Tool ?

-Original Message-
From: mailop [mailto:mailop-boun...@mailop.org] On Behalf Of Marc Perkel
Sent: Thursday, September 3, 2015 10:40 AM
To: mailop@mailop.org
Subject: Re: [mailop] Hotmail/Microsoft/Outlook - getting their attention

Well, the likelihood of me actually doing this is low.

I'm mostly just venting frustration. :(


-- 
Marc Perkel - Sales/Support
supp...@junkemailfilter.com
https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3a%2f%2fwww.junkemailfilter.com&data=01%7c01%7cmichael.wise%40microsoft.com%7c257d945357f44a782d5e08d2b48795ef%7c72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7c1&sdata=nK6pznwcAWjX9agPtr8zm9w%2bCvNi6EFs62YSyWnRilg%3d
Junk Email Filter dot com
415-992-3400


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Re: [mailop] Hotmail/Microsoft/Outlook - getting their attention

[Anne Mitchell]

If someone can send me actual error messages, along with the IP address from 
which you are sending, we'll see what we can do.

Anne

Anne P. Mitchell,
Attorney at Law
CEO/President
ISIPP SuretyMail Email Reputation, Accreditation & Certification
Your mail system + SuretyMail accreditation = delivered to their inbox!
Figure Out if It's Worth It: http://www.isipp.com/free-tools/roi-calculator/
http://www.SuretyMail.com/
http://www.SuretyMail.eu/

Author: Section 6 of the CAN-SPAM Act of 2003 (the Federal anti-spam law)
Member, California Bar Cyberspace Law Committee
Member, Colorado Cybersecurity Consortium
Ret. Professor of Law, Lincoln Law School of San Jose
303-731-2121 | amitch...@isipp.com | @AnnePMitchell
Facebook/AnnePMitchell  | LinkedIn/in/annemitchell


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[mailop] Introductions and white listing

[Marc Perkel]

I suppose I should introduce myself as I'm new to the list.

I'm Marc Perkel. My service is Junk Email Filter. The name says it all. 
We do front end spam filtering, outbound spam filtering, and email hosting.


Glad to be part of this list. Thanks for including me.

And - assuming people on this list all hate spam and want their good 
email delivered - email me privately and I'll get you white listed, or 
at least yellow listed. (yellow means that you send some spam but it 
keeps you from being blacklisted - yahoo, gmail, hotmail - yellow list.) 
Can list by host name (preferred). ex. *.outlook.com FCRDNS required.


And - if you want - feel free to use our DNSBL/DNSWL lists to block 
spam/pass ham.


http://wiki.junkemailfilter.com/index.php/Spam_DNS_Lists

--
Marc Perkel - Sales/Support
supp...@junkemailfilter.com
http://www.junkemailfilter.com
Junk Email Filter dot com
415-992-3400


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Re: [mailop] Hotmail/Microsoft/Outlook - getting their attention

[Marc Perkel]

Does anyone have any suggestions about how to get their attention and 
fix their problem?


I'd be happy to replace their lame spam filtering with mine. :)

On 09/03/15 10:37, Michael Wise wrote:
When you get LCA involved, or even mention them, things grind to a 
complete halt.


Aloha,
Michael.
--
Sent from my Windows Phone

From: Marc Perkel 
Sent: ‎9/‎3/‎2015 10:25 AM
To: mailop@mailop.org 
Subject: Re: [mailop] Hotmail/Microsoft/Outlook - getting their attention

I've had some luck before doing extreme things to get their attention.
And keep in mind this suggestion is aimed to get their attention.

Lawyers for big corps are generally smart and if someone points out to
them an issue they can often deal with it before it becomes a lawsuit.
Same it true of negative publicity. Sales teams can often bring pressure
to tech staff if the product isn't working and getting bad press.

Yes - ISPs are immune unless they are deliberately doing things that
would be in the class of "unfair competition" to drive other companies
out of business. (i.e. Netscape). So actually winning a suit would be
against the odds. Getting their attention to fix it - somewhat more
likely. And all that costs is an hour of my time and a stamp.


On 09/03/15 10:07, Anne Mitchell wrote:
>> And as someone who's job it is to stop spam, do you really want a 
lawsuit to find that a mail service has to accept mail from someone else?
> Not to mention that Federal law specifically exempts ISPs from any 
liability for acceptance/delivery decisions they make.  Federal law 
specifically states that ISPs can refuse your email for any reason, or 
no reason at all.

>
> Anne
>
> Anne P. Mitchell,
> Attorney at Law
> CEO/President
> ISIPP SuretyMail Email Reputation, Accreditation & Certification
> Your mail system + SuretyMail accreditation = delivered to their inbox!
> Figure Out if It's Worth It: 
https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3a%2f%2fwww.isipp.com%2ffree-tools%2froi-calculator%2f&data=01%7c01%7cmichael.wise%40microsoft.com%7c93fad3f60c784b14c55d08d2b484afae%7c72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7c1&sdata=qT2me0029ndJmtSIFCYvEpmpqCIKy4GsqQsYG5ZtMCQ%3d
> 
https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3a%2f%2fwww.SuretyMail.com%2f&data=01%7c01%7cmichael.wise%40microsoft.com%7c93fad3f60c784b14c55d08d2b484afae%7c72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7c1&sdata=Ja1qpl4qhqMD7%2f73EBwvitAZgu8FVRaV%2f6pxPpqdc0o%3d
> 
https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3a%2f%2fwww.SuretyMail.eu%2f&data=01%7c01%7cmichael.wise%40microsoft.com%7c93fad3f60c784b14c55d08d2b484afae%7c72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7c1&sdata=WECDwFk9k2Mp0GDfjJj2Rlly0b8irwI1xarY%2bDiEqk0%3d

>
> Author: Section 6 of the CAN-SPAM Act of 2003 (the Federal anti-spam 
law)

> Member, California Bar Cyberspace Law Committee
> Member, Colorado Cybersecurity Consortium
> Ret. Professor of Law, Lincoln Law School of San Jose
> 303-731-2121 | amitch...@isipp.com | @AnnePMitchell
> Facebook/AnnePMitchell  | LinkedIn/in/annemitchell
>
>
>
> ___
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> mailop@mailop.org
> 
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>
>
>

--
Marc Perkel - Sales/Support
supp...@junkemailfilter.com
https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3a%2f%2fwww.junkemailfilter.com&data=01%7c01%7cmichael.wise%40microsoft.com%7c93fad3f60c784b14c55d08d2b484afae%7c72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7c1&sdata=aDGXUYFMEZUZDQpWX3lpE6E6ghEHUizAxMk9pWtSY%2bI%3d
Junk Email Filter dot com
415-992-3400


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--
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supp...@junkemailfilter.com
http://www.junkemailfilter.com
Junk Email Filter dot com
415-992-3400

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Re: [mailop] Hotmail/Microsoft/Outlook - getting their attention

[Marc Perkel]

Well, the likelihood of me actually doing this is low.

I'm mostly just venting frustration. :(


--
Marc Perkel - Sales/Support
supp...@junkemailfilter.com
http://www.junkemailfilter.com
Junk Email Filter dot com
415-992-3400


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Re: [mailop] Hotmail/Microsoft/Outlook - getting their attention

[Michael Wise]

When you get LCA involved, or even mention them, things grind to a complete 
halt.

Aloha,
Michael.
--
Sent from my Windows Phone

From: Marc Perkel
Sent: ‎9/‎3/‎2015 10:25 AM
To: mailop@mailop.org
Subject: Re: [mailop] Hotmail/Microsoft/Outlook - getting their attention

I've had some luck before doing extreme things to get their attention.
And keep in mind this suggestion is aimed to get their attention.

Lawyers for big corps are generally smart and if someone points out to
them an issue they can often deal with it before it becomes a lawsuit.
Same it true of negative publicity. Sales teams can often bring pressure
to tech staff if the product isn't working and getting bad press.

Yes - ISPs are immune unless they are deliberately doing things that
would be in the class of "unfair competition" to drive other companies
out of business. (i.e. Netscape). So actually winning a suit would be
against the odds. Getting their attention to fix it - somewhat more
likely. And all that costs is an hour of my time and a stamp.


On 09/03/15 10:07, Anne Mitchell wrote:
>> And as someone who's job it is to stop spam, do you really want a lawsuit to 
>> find that a mail service has to accept mail from someone else?
> Not to mention that Federal law specifically exempts ISPs from any liability 
> for acceptance/delivery decisions they make.  Federal law specifically states 
> that ISPs can refuse your email for any reason, or no reason at all.
>
> Anne
>
> Anne P. Mitchell,
> Attorney at Law
> CEO/President
> ISIPP SuretyMail Email Reputation, Accreditation & Certification
> Your mail system + SuretyMail accreditation = delivered to their inbox!
> Figure Out if It's Worth It: 
> https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3a%2f%2fwww.isipp.com%2ffree-tools%2froi-calculator%2f&data=01%7c01%7cmichael.wise%40microsoft.com%7c93fad3f60c784b14c55d08d2b484afae%7c72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7c1&sdata=qT2me0029ndJmtSIFCYvEpmpqCIKy4GsqQsYG5ZtMCQ%3d
> https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3a%2f%2fwww.SuretyMail.com%2f&data=01%7c01%7cmichael.wise%40microsoft.com%7c93fad3f60c784b14c55d08d2b484afae%7c72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7c1&sdata=Ja1qpl4qhqMD7%2f73EBwvitAZgu8FVRaV%2f6pxPpqdc0o%3d
> https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3a%2f%2fwww.SuretyMail.eu%2f&data=01%7c01%7cmichael.wise%40microsoft.com%7c93fad3f60c784b14c55d08d2b484afae%7c72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7c1&sdata=WECDwFk9k2Mp0GDfjJj2Rlly0b8irwI1xarY%2bDiEqk0%3d
>
> Author: Section 6 of the CAN-SPAM Act of 2003 (the Federal anti-spam law)
> Member, California Bar Cyberspace Law Committee
> Member, Colorado Cybersecurity Consortium
> Ret. Professor of Law, Lincoln Law School of San Jose
> 303-731-2121 | amitch...@isipp.com | @AnnePMitchell
> Facebook/AnnePMitchell  | LinkedIn/in/annemitchell
>
>
>
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>
>
>

--
Marc Perkel - Sales/Support
supp...@junkemailfilter.com
https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3a%2f%2fwww.junkemailfilter.com&data=01%7c01%7cmichael.wise%40microsoft.com%7c93fad3f60c784b14c55d08d2b484afae%7c72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7c1&sdata=aDGXUYFMEZUZDQpWX3lpE6E6ghEHUizAxMk9pWtSY%2bI%3d
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Re: [mailop] Hotmail/Microsoft/Outlook - getting their attention

[Joseph McDougall]

On 3 September 2015 at 18:21, Marc Perkel  wrote:
> I've had some luck before doing extreme things to get their attention. And
> keep in mind this suggestion is aimed to get their attention.
>
> Lawyers for big corps are generally smart and if someone points out to them
> an issue they can often deal with it before it becomes a lawsuit. Same it
> true of negative publicity

I've got to say, threats - legal or otherwise - have the opposite to
intended effect on me. I know plenty of organisations who go into
lockdown when someone threatens them.

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Re: [mailop] Hotmail/Microsoft/Outlook - getting their attention

[Marc Perkel]

I've had some luck before doing extreme things to get their attention. 
And keep in mind this suggestion is aimed to get their attention.


Lawyers for big corps are generally smart and if someone points out to 
them an issue they can often deal with it before it becomes a lawsuit. 
Same it true of negative publicity. Sales teams can often bring pressure 
to tech staff if the product isn't working and getting bad press.


Yes - ISPs are immune unless they are deliberately doing things that 
would be in the class of "unfair competition" to drive other companies 
out of business. (i.e. Netscape). So actually winning a suit would be 
against the odds. Getting their attention to fix it - somewhat more 
likely. And all that costs is an hour of my time and a stamp.



On 09/03/15 10:07, Anne Mitchell wrote:

And as someone who's job it is to stop spam, do you really want a lawsuit to 
find that a mail service has to accept mail from someone else?

Not to mention that Federal law specifically exempts ISPs from any liability 
for acceptance/delivery decisions they make.  Federal law specifically states 
that ISPs can refuse your email for any reason, or no reason at all.

Anne

Anne P. Mitchell,
Attorney at Law
CEO/President
ISIPP SuretyMail Email Reputation, Accreditation & Certification
Your mail system + SuretyMail accreditation = delivered to their inbox!
Figure Out if It's Worth It: http://www.isipp.com/free-tools/roi-calculator/
http://www.SuretyMail.com/
http://www.SuretyMail.eu/

Author: Section 6 of the CAN-SPAM Act of 2003 (the Federal anti-spam law)
Member, California Bar Cyberspace Law Committee
Member, Colorado Cybersecurity Consortium
Ret. Professor of Law, Lincoln Law School of San Jose
303-731-2121 | amitch...@isipp.com | @AnnePMitchell
Facebook/AnnePMitchell  | LinkedIn/in/annemitchell



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Re: [mailop] Hotmail/Microsoft Contact Available?

[Michael Peddemors]

That might not be the smartest tactic.. :)

* Do you want to be on their radar? They have deep pockets..

* Email operators and end users have protected rights, they can choose 
to accept/deny based on almost any principle  (eg, We don't accept 
emails from people who's name starts with the letter 'M' on Mondays )


* You have a better chance going after them for their outgoing spam :)
(Have to admit, has been improving a bit lately)

Delayed delivery times can be caused by many things, other than just 
operator/recipient saying no.. And because it does go through later, 
this could be anything from transient network, DNS, infrastructure 
problems..  Or it could simply be a form of rate limiting.


I would suggest you find out more information first, and of course this 
list is a good place to start that conversation.


However, no reports of issues currently at any of the ISP's or Telco's 
we monitor at this time.





On 15-09-03 09:41 AM, Marc Perkel wrote:

I'm thinking about writing Microsoft's legal department a letter
threatening a lawsuit with the hope that their lawyers will get the
attention of their tech staff and do something about this. Very very
frustrating.


On 09/03/15 08:05, Jim Popovitch wrote:

On Thu, Sep 3, 2015 at 10:49 AM, Marc Perkel
 wrote:

Hi Brian,

I'm having problem with Microsoft too. It's just plain weird.
Sometimes it
takes 6 hours to deliver an email. And I can't quite understand what is
happening.

I'm in the front end spam filtering business. Email comes to me - I
clean it
- and then forward it on to the recipient's server. That includes many
domains hosted at outlook.com. I'm having this problem with all domains
hosted there and only there.

Who else is seeing this?

I'm seeing it for confirmed-opt-in list subscribers using
hotmail/live/outlook addrs.

And the beauty is I'm getting mailbombed by MS about 1918 addrs:

 From: st...@hotmail.com
 To: postmas...@domainmail.org
 Subject:  complaint about message from 10.162.145.146

-Jim P.

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Visit us at http://www.linuxmagic.com @linuxmagic

A Wizard IT Company - For More Info http://www.wizard.ca
"LinuxMagic" a Registered TradeMark of Wizard Tower TechnoServices Ltd.

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Re: [mailop] Hotmail/Microsoft Contact Available?

[Anne Mitchell]

> And as someone who's job it is to stop spam, do you really want a lawsuit to 
> find that a mail service has to accept mail from someone else?

Not to mention that Federal law specifically exempts ISPs from any liability 
for acceptance/delivery decisions they make.  Federal law specifically states 
that ISPs can refuse your email for any reason, or no reason at all.

Anne

Anne P. Mitchell,
Attorney at Law
CEO/President
ISIPP SuretyMail Email Reputation, Accreditation & Certification
Your mail system + SuretyMail accreditation = delivered to their inbox!
Figure Out if It's Worth It: http://www.isipp.com/free-tools/roi-calculator/
http://www.SuretyMail.com/
http://www.SuretyMail.eu/

Author: Section 6 of the CAN-SPAM Act of 2003 (the Federal anti-spam law)
Member, California Bar Cyberspace Law Committee
Member, Colorado Cybersecurity Consortium
Ret. Professor of Law, Lincoln Law School of San Jose
303-731-2121 | amitch...@isipp.com | @AnnePMitchell
Facebook/AnnePMitchell  | LinkedIn/in/annemitchell



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Re: [mailop] Hotmail/Microsoft Contact Available?

[Brandon Long]

Has that ever worked for you before?

In general, I think people shut down at the threat of a lawsuit, it puts
everyone on extreme notice.

And as someone who's job it to stop spam, do you really want a lawsuit to
find that a mail service has to accept mail from someone else?

Brandon

On Thu, Sep 3, 2015 at 9:41 AM, Marc Perkel 
wrote:

> I'm thinking about writing Microsoft's legal department a letter
> threatening a lawsuit with the hope that their lawyers will get the
> attention of their tech staff and do something about this. Very very
> frustrating.
>
>
>
> On 09/03/15 08:05, Jim Popovitch wrote:
>
>> On Thu, Sep 3, 2015 at 10:49 AM, Marc Perkel
>>  wrote:
>>
>>> Hi Brian,
>>>
>>> I'm having problem with Microsoft too. It's just plain weird. Sometimes
>>> it
>>> takes 6 hours to deliver an email. And I can't quite understand what is
>>> happening.
>>>
>>> I'm in the front end spam filtering business. Email comes to me - I
>>> clean it
>>> - and then forward it on to the recipient's server. That includes many
>>> domains hosted at outlook.com. I'm having this problem with all domains
>>> hosted there and only there.
>>>
>>> Who else is seeing this?
>>>
>> I'm seeing it for confirmed-opt-in list subscribers using
>> hotmail/live/outlook addrs.
>>
>> And the beauty is I'm getting mailbombed by MS about 1918 addrs:
>>
>>  From: st...@hotmail.com
>>  To: postmas...@domainmail.org
>>  Subject:  complaint about message from 10.162.145.146
>>
>> -Jim P.
>>
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>>
>>
> --
> Marc Perkel - Sales/Support
> supp...@junkemailfilter.com
> http://www.junkemailfilter.com
> Junk Email Filter dot com
> 415-992-3400
>
>
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Re: [mailop] Hotmail/Microsoft Contact Available?

[Brett Schenker]

I watch our SNDS, SRD, and complaint data like a hawk and there's no ryhme
or reason I've found to match that data to blocks/things going to spam.
Things can be great data wise and there's issues and vice versa. The only
thing I've found to help is regularly trimming inactive. That does have a
noticeable impact.
On Sep 3, 2015 12:51 PM, "Marc Perkel"  wrote:

> I'm thinking about writing Microsoft's legal department a letter
> threatening a lawsuit with the hope that their lawyers will get the
> attention of their tech staff and do something about this. Very very
> frustrating.
>
>
> On 09/03/15 08:05, Jim Popovitch wrote:
>
>> On Thu, Sep 3, 2015 at 10:49 AM, Marc Perkel
>>  wrote:
>>
>>> Hi Brian,
>>>
>>> I'm having problem with Microsoft too. It's just plain weird. Sometimes
>>> it
>>> takes 6 hours to deliver an email. And I can't quite understand what is
>>> happening.
>>>
>>> I'm in the front end spam filtering business. Email comes to me - I
>>> clean it
>>> - and then forward it on to the recipient's server. That includes many
>>> domains hosted at outlook.com. I'm having this problem with all domains
>>> hosted there and only there.
>>>
>>> Who else is seeing this?
>>>
>> I'm seeing it for confirmed-opt-in list subscribers using
>> hotmail/live/outlook addrs.
>>
>> And the beauty is I'm getting mailbombed by MS about 1918 addrs:
>>
>>  From: st...@hotmail.com
>>  To: postmas...@domainmail.org
>>  Subject:  complaint about message from 10.162.145.146
>>
>> -Jim P.
>>
>> ___
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>>
>>
> --
> Marc Perkel - Sales/Support
> supp...@junkemailfilter.com
> http://www.junkemailfilter.com
> Junk Email Filter dot com
> 415-992-3400
>
>
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Re: [mailop] Hotmail/Microsoft Contact Available?

[Marc Perkel]

I'm thinking about writing Microsoft's legal department a letter 
threatening a lawsuit with the hope that their lawyers will get the 
attention of their tech staff and do something about this. Very very 
frustrating.



On 09/03/15 08:05, Jim Popovitch wrote:

On Thu, Sep 3, 2015 at 10:49 AM, Marc Perkel
 wrote:

Hi Brian,

I'm having problem with Microsoft too. It's just plain weird. Sometimes it
takes 6 hours to deliver an email. And I can't quite understand what is
happening.

I'm in the front end spam filtering business. Email comes to me - I clean it
- and then forward it on to the recipient's server. That includes many
domains hosted at outlook.com. I'm having this problem with all domains
hosted there and only there.

Who else is seeing this?

I'm seeing it for confirmed-opt-in list subscribers using
hotmail/live/outlook addrs.

And the beauty is I'm getting mailbombed by MS about 1918 addrs:

 From: st...@hotmail.com
 To: postmas...@domainmail.org
 Subject:  complaint about message from 10.162.145.146

-Jim P.

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--
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supp...@junkemailfilter.com
http://www.junkemailfilter.com
Junk Email Filter dot com
415-992-3400


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Re: [mailop] Hotmail/Microsoft Contact Available?

[Jim Popovitch]

On Thu, Sep 3, 2015 at 10:49 AM, Marc Perkel
 wrote:
> Hi Brian,
>
> I'm having problem with Microsoft too. It's just plain weird. Sometimes it
> takes 6 hours to deliver an email. And I can't quite understand what is
> happening.
>
> I'm in the front end spam filtering business. Email comes to me - I clean it
> - and then forward it on to the recipient's server. That includes many
> domains hosted at outlook.com. I'm having this problem with all domains
> hosted there and only there.
>
> Who else is seeing this?

I'm seeing it for confirmed-opt-in list subscribers using
hotmail/live/outlook addrs.

And the beauty is I'm getting mailbombed by MS about 1918 addrs:

From: st...@hotmail.com
To: postmas...@domainmail.org
Subject:  complaint about message from 10.162.145.146

-Jim P.

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Re: [mailop] Hotmail/Microsoft Contact Available?

[Gil Bahat]

Microsoft is also an engagement outlier for us compared to other major
providers, for the same traffic. We have not finished investigation into
the matter yet but I am really interested in your results / resolution.
On Sep 3, 2015 5:29 PM, "Brian Curry"  wrote:

> Is anyone from Microsoft/Hotmail able to help me with a delivery issue
> that has been lingering for months?
>
>
>
> Long story short, I have been going in loops with the normal Hotmail
> support process for months and cannot seem to get a useful answer. IP
> address in question has pulled way back on engagement and I have tested the
> email content outside of the normal IP address and can get it to deliver
> just fine.
>
>
>
> Any help is much appreciated, can contact me off list for me private
> details.
>
>
>
>
>
> Brian Curry
>
> Manager of Deliverability, Digital Messaging
>
> Merkle Inc.
>
> Phone: 720.836.2150
>
> bcu...@merkleinc.com
>
>
>
> This email and any attachments transmitted with it are intended for use by
> the intended recipient(s) only. If you have received this email in error,
> please notify the sender immediately and then delete it. If you are not the
> intended recipient, you must not keep, use, disclose, copy or distribute
> this email without the author’s prior permission. We take precautions to
> minimize the risk of transmitting software viruses, but we advise you to
> perform your own virus checks on any attachment to this message. We cannot
> accept liability for any loss or damage caused by software viruses. The
> information contained in this communication may be confidential and may be
> subject to the attorney-client privilege.
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Re: [mailop] Hotmail/Microsoft Contact Available?

[Marc Perkel]

Hi Brian,

I'm having problem with Microsoft too. It's just plain weird. Sometimes 
it takes 6 hours to deliver an email. And I can't quite understand what 
is happening.


I'm in the front end spam filtering business. Email comes to me - I 
clean it - and then forward it on to the recipient's server. That 
includes many domains hosted at outlook.com. I'm having this problem 
with all domains hosted there and only there.


Who else is seeing this?

On 09/03/15 07:24, Brian Curry wrote:


Is anyone from Microsoft/Hotmail able to help me with a delivery issue 
that has been lingering for months?


Long story short, I have been going in loops with the normal Hotmail 
support process for months and cannot seem to get a useful answer. IP 
address in question has pulled way back on engagement and I have 
tested the email content outside of the normal IP address and can get 
it to deliver just fine.


Any help is much appreciated, can contact me off list for me private 
details.


Brian Curry

Manager of Deliverability, Digital Messaging

Merkle Inc.

Phone: 720.836.2150

bcu...@merkleinc.com 

This email and any attachments transmitted with it are intended for 
use by the intended recipient(s) only. If you have received this email 
in error, please notify the sender immediately and then delete it. If 
you are not the intended recipient, you must not keep, use, disclose, 
copy or distribute this email without the author's prior permission. 
We take precautions to minimize the risk of transmitting software 
viruses, but we advise you to perform your own virus checks on any 
attachment to this message. We cannot accept liability for any loss or 
damage caused by software viruses. The information contained in this 
communication may be confidential and may be subject to the 
attorney-client privilege.




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Junk Email Filter dot com
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[mailop] Hotmail/Microsoft Contact Available?

[Brian Curry]

Is anyone from Microsoft/Hotmail able to help me with a delivery issue that has 
been lingering for months?

Long story short, I have been going in loops with the normal Hotmail support 
process for months and cannot seem to get a useful answer. IP address in 
question has pulled way back on engagement and I have tested the email content 
outside of the normal IP address and can get it to deliver just fine.

Any help is much appreciated, can contact me off list for me private details.


Brian Curry
Manager of Deliverability, Digital Messaging
Merkle Inc.
Phone: 720.836.2150
bcu...@merkleinc.com


This email and any attachments transmitted with it are intended for use by the 
intended recipient(s) only. If you have received this email in error, please 
notify the sender immediately and then delete it. If you are not the intended 
recipient, you must not keep, use, disclose, copy or distribute this email 
without the author’s prior permission. We take precautions to minimize the risk 
of transmitting software viruses, but we advise you to perform your own virus 
checks on any attachment to this message. We cannot accept liability for any 
loss or damage caused by software viruses. The information contained in this 
communication may be confidential and may be subject to the attorney-client 
privilege.
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