Re: [mailop] [EXTERNAL] Re: Registered @ Microsoft JMRP - blacklisted without feedback received

[Simon Arlott via mailop]

On 12/05/2021 04:08, Michael Wise via mailop wrote:
> S3150 is throttling.
> 
> Open a ticket and ask for a more realistic hourly/daily throttle limit.

I'm now having this problem too. My email volume is so small it never
appears on SNDS. There have been 10 messages to Hotmail this month (4
unique recipients) and now I'm getting S3150 replies to everything
despite still receiving email to the same IP from those recipients.

I'm being fed lies like "Your IP was blocked by Outlook.com because
Hotmail customers have reported email from this IP as unwanted".


"Outlook.com Deliverability Support" have also provided me with a link
to this amusing document:

> For more detailed information about best sending practices to
> Outlook.com users, please review the following white paper:
> http://download.microsoft.com/download/e/3/3/e3397e7c-17a6-497d-9693-78f80be272fb/enhance_deliver.pdf

It hasn't been updated since 2007 and it shows.

-- 
Simon Arlott
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Re: [mailop] [EXTERNAL] Re: Registered @ Microsoft JMRP - blacklisted without feedback received

[Dave Holmes via mailop]

Just to add that this throttling is reputation dependent and you should be
monitoring outbound mail queues and setting YOUR outbound rates per IP /
Pool of IP's accordingly.

If you get the throttling messages automatically slow delivery for a period
if you can.

No point constantly kicking the door if you have been told to come back
later, it's a bit like greylisting but at scale.


On Wed, 12 May 2021 at 04:13, Michael Wise via mailop 
wrote:

>
>
> S3150 is throttling.
>
> Open a ticket and ask for a more realistic hourly/daily throttle limit.
>
>
>
> Aloha,
>
> Michael.
>
> --
>
> *Michael J Wise*
> Microsoft Corporation| Spam Analysis
>
> "Your Spam Specimen Has Been Processed."
>
> Open a ticket for Hotmail <http://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkID=614866>
> ?
>
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: mailop  On Behalf Of Stefano Bagnara via
> mailop
> Sent: Tuesday, May 11, 2021 11:01 AM
> To: mailop@mailop.org
> Subject: Re: [mailop] [EXTERNAL] Re: Registered @ Microsoft JMRP -
> blacklisted without feedback received
>
>
>
> On Tue, 11 May 2021 at 19:31, Michael Wise via mailop 
> wrote:
>
> > JMRP doesn’t send every email reported as spam to the sender.
>
> > Last I heard, it was 1 in 1,000 or some such.
>
> > This is to prevent listwashing, as should be obvious.
>
>
>
> But what about SNDS "Complaint rate" and "Trap hits"? Are they about
>
> all of the reports you collect or about the 1/1000 you send via JMRP?
>
>
>
> In my case there was nothing at all in SNDS  (green , complaint <0.1%,
>
> no trap hits for every day in the SNDS history), but still I got that
>
> S3150. I've been mitigated when I opened the ticket but I have no clue
>
> what was the issue so I can't fix anything.
>
>
>
> If you have abuses that you don't want to shared (and I understand the
>
> listwashing issue) I would expect you to put the counters in SNDS
>
> anyway: am I wrong?
>
>
>
> --
>
> Stefano Bagnara
>
> Apache James/jDKIM/jSPF
>
> VOXmail/Mosaico.io/VoidLabs
>
> ___
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>
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-- 

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Dave Holmes
Technical Director

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Re: [mailop] [EXTERNAL] Re: Registered @ Microsoft JMRP - blacklisted without feedback received

[Michael Rathbun via mailop]

On Wed, 12 May 2021 10:47:34 +0100, Laura Atkins via mailop
 wrote:

>Or… care? 

Heh.  The difference between not knowing and not caring is in the time lapse
between the offence and the inevitable "time wounds all heels" event(s).

mdr
-- 
There's a funny thing that happens when you know the correct
answer.  It throws you when you get a different answer that
is not wrong.-- Dr Bowman (Freefall)

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Re: [mailop] [EXTERNAL] Re: Registered @ Microsoft JMRP - blacklisted without feedback received

[Laura Atkins via mailop]

> On 12 May 2021, at 09:59, Michael Rathbun via mailop  
> wrote:
> 
> On Wed, 12 May 2021 09:27:40 +0100, Laura Atkins via mailop
>  wrote:
> 
>> The things we normally recommend to folks don’t always work as expected. 
>> Sometimes they do and we can fix things no problem. But sometimes they are 
>> just an inscrutable black box with variable responses.  
> 
> This is a characteristic that is also visible inside the system.  I found
> instances in the architecture where it might be impossible to determine what
> had happened to a given message.

You are not the first Microsoft (former) employee to tell me that. I think the 
first was DV back in SF a decade and a half ago when we were sitting in his 
living room during his whiskey tasting party. But it honestly could have been 
JD even before that. 

>> The other bit of speculation is that Microsoft as an entity just 
>> doesn’t really care what any outside company or person thinks. They do 
>> things 
>> The Microsoft Way. 
> 
> I endorse this analysis, noting that MSFT attempted to replace "commodity
> protocols" like TCP/IP with their own concoctions; MSFT had no idea what
> forces they were dealing with. 

Or… care? I mean this is the company that broke things internally in a way that 
made EVERYTHING fail SPF (even their own mail) because of an internal handoff. 
That went on for months. This is why I can’t get excited about Microsoft 
quarantining every DMARC failure. This is a much better situation than them 
respecting DMARC and then rejecting perfectly valid messages because they can’t 
do authentication analysis correctly. 

>> There isn’t the space inside the company for folks who know 
>> what the problems are to effectively advocate for change. I think there are 
>> lots of individuals who care and who see the issues, but the product 
>> developers / managers / owners just don’t care. They’d care if there were 
>> numbers to demonstrate the problem, but none of the numbers actually look 
>> like 
>> a problem. 
> 
> My utmost respect for those who are still there, working in whatever way they
> can.  The foe is not an evil supervillain.  It's simply the system as it has
> evolved to work, within the systems in which it is embedded.

You can fight people. You can fight ideas. You cannot fight embedded 
bureaucracy. 

laura

-- 
Having an Email Crisis?  We can help! 800 823-9674 

Laura Atkins
Word to the Wise
la...@wordtothewise.com
(650) 437-0741  

Email Delivery Blog: https://wordtothewise.com/blog 







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Re: [mailop] [EXTERNAL] Re: Registered @ Microsoft JMRP - blacklisted without feedback received

[Michael Rathbun via mailop]

On Wed, 12 May 2021 09:27:40 +0100, Laura Atkins via mailop
 wrote:

>The things we normally recommend to folks don’t always work as expected. 
>Sometimes they do and we can fix things no problem. But sometimes they are 
>just an inscrutable black box with variable responses.  

This is a characteristic that is also visible inside the system.  I found
instances in the architecture where it might be impossible to determine what
had happened to a given message.

>The other bit of speculation is that Microsoft as an entity just 
>doesn’t really care what any outside company or person thinks. They do things 
>The Microsoft Way. 

I endorse this analysis, noting that MSFT attempted to replace "commodity
protocols" like TCP/IP with their own concoctions; MSFT had no idea what
forces they were dealing with. 

>There isn’t the space inside the company for folks who know 
>what the problems are to effectively advocate for change. I think there are 
>lots of individuals who care and who see the issues, but the product 
>developers / managers / owners just don’t care. They’d care if there were 
>numbers to demonstrate the problem, but none of the numbers actually look like 
>a problem. 

My utmost respect for those who are still there, working in whatever way they
can.  The foe is not an evil supervillain.  It's simply the system as it has
evolved to work, within the systems in which it is embedded.

mdr
-- 
I regret that I have but one * for my country.

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Re: [mailop] [EXTERNAL] Re: Registered @ Microsoft JMRP - blacklisted without feedback received

[Laura Atkins via mailop]

> On 11 May 2021, at 19:00, Stefano Bagnara via mailop  
> wrote:
> 
> In my case there was nothing at all in SNDS  (green , complaint <0.1%,
> no trap hits for every day in the SNDS history), but still I got that
> S3150. I've been mitigated when I opened the ticket but I have no clue
> what was the issue so I can't fix anything.

Complaints can only be generated when the mail is in the inbox. If mail is 
going to the bulk folder complaint rates will be low, even zero, because no one 
is given the opportunity to submit a complaint. As for the colors, two things. 
One: SmartScreen filters are a reflection of the content reputation not IP. 
Now, bad content can create bad IP reputation because ’this is an IP that sends 
bad content’ but content / domain rep are different things to IP rep and there 
are different things that create them. I don’t think good content can fix bad 
IP reputation, but it’s not an area I’ve ever explored so I could be very wrong 
there. Two: The colors do not reflect delivery. I have had dozens of clients 
over the years with red labels that reach the inbox. I’ve had dozens of clients 
over the years with green labels that are blocked or go 100% to spam. 

As to why this keeps happening, the underlying issue is simple to describe in 
the abstract. 

Recipients acted on mail coming from those IPs in a way that led Microsoft to 
believe that email was unimportant to their users. Initially, Microsoft put the 
mail in the bulk folder and waited for their users to complain. They also 
polled some of the recipients and asked them if the decision to put the mail in 
spam or the inbox was correct. None of Microsoft’s actual users said that MS 
was wrong. When the mail continued and the senders didn’t seem to care that the 
mail was going to bulk over a period of time then Microsoft escalated to rate 
limiting the sender. The sender still didn’t take action. Users still didn’t 
complain they weren’t receiving mail they wanted. Microsoft decided just to not 
waste the cycles delivering mail their users didn’t want, so they blocked the 
IP. You contacted them, they mitigated the reputation and reset it to basically 
neutral. Then, the cycle started again and they started monitoring how their 
users were treating the mail. Recipients acted in ways that led Microsoft to 
believe that the email was unimportant to their users. GOTO 1

Now, that’s not to say Microsoft doesn’t have some problems with filtering. 
They are one of the toughest delivery nuts to crack right now. The things we 
normally recommend to folks don’t always work as expected. Sometimes they do 
and we can fix things no problem. But sometimes they are just an inscrutable 
black box with variable responses.  

I have some theories as to why that is, but it’s all speculation at this point. 
I do think that spam to O365 is affecting reputation more than folks believe - 
and we have zero feedback from O365 domains either in the form of FBLs or SNDS. 
The other bit of speculation is that Microsoft as an entity just doesn’t really 
care what any outside company or person thinks. They do things The Microsoft 
Way. There isn’t the space inside the company for folks who know what the 
problems are to effectively advocate for change. I think there are lots of 
individuals who care and who see the issues, but the product developers / 
managers / owners just don’t care. They’d care if there were numbers to 
demonstrate the problem, but none of the numbers actually look like a problem. 

They also seem to have excessive problems with filtering recently - they 
blocked google and linkedin links in the last 2 days or so. Maybe getting in 
the press for screwing up their filtering will strengthen the voices of the 
folks internally to get the experts to give input on the product. Maybe it 
won’t. 

laura 


-- 
Having an Email Crisis?  We can help! 800 823-9674 

Laura Atkins
Word to the Wise
la...@wordtothewise.com
(650) 437-0741  

Email Delivery Blog: https://wordtothewise.com/blog 







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Re: [mailop] [EXTERNAL] Re: Registered @ Microsoft JMRP - blacklisted without feedback received

[Michael Rathbun via mailop]

On Wed, 12 May 2021 10:08:37 +0200, Jaroslaw Rafa via mailop
 wrote:

>Your second paragraph can be basically summed up that there is no economic
>incentive for Microsoft to care about the quality of email service they
>provide - right?

Tochno.

>If yes, don't you agree that Microsoft should ;) simply stop providing the
>email service at all? I think this would be better solution that keep up a
>service that isn't working properly...

The IS is that if it's not dragging down the bottom line, no action is
required.  If it is not necessary to change something, it is necessary NOT to
change something.  My opinions (which are that a public nuisance SHOULD be
abated) are irrelevant.

Sixty years slogging through the capitalist jungle has left me with a few
occasional revelations.

mdr

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Re: [mailop] [EXTERNAL] Re: Registered @ Microsoft JMRP - blacklisted without feedback received

[Michael Rathbun via mailop]

On Wed, 12 May 2021 09:59:35 +0200, Hans-Martin Mosner via mailop
 wrote:

>I'm not talking about hotmail/outlook, I'm talking about Office365 customers 
>who *do* pay and who would be pretty much
>not amused if their mails were broadly rejected.

Ah.  As one who was a Spam Analyst in the Office365 structure, I have some
personal knowledge of this.  In fact, paying-customer feedback is (was, when I
was there) an intense concern.  However, the feedback that reached us was
exclusively in the midnight calls to management that amounted to "WHY THE FUCK
IS MY COMPANY GETTING SO MUCH SPAM??".  Were there a mechanism in place for
customers to discover whether their mail was being accepted, there might have
been such sand raised.  However, since there are explicit prohibitions of
attempting broadcast email through the O365 service, no deliverability
services are provided.  

We did pay LOTS of attention to the constant outbound spamming activities that
were enabled and promoted by stupid management decisions regarding intake,
vetting, and monitoring of new customers.  Some of us had solved these issues
during the early all-you-can-eat-for-$20 dialup era.

>And I'd wager a bet that most of these (and their MSFT sales buddies if they 
>have any) would put the blame squarely on
>those who rejected their mails, not on MSFT.

You might not find the odds in your favour.

mdr
-- 
  Ad finem pugnabo.

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Re: [mailop] [EXTERNAL] Re: Registered @ Microsoft JMRP - blacklisted without feedback received

[Jaroslaw Rafa via mailop]

Dnia 12.05.2021 o godz. 02:58:44 Michael Rathbun via mailop pisze:
> 
> Microsoft *SHOULD* (in my own personal opinion, and that of many others)
> provide the highest quality service they can, taking into account the needs of
> all involved parties.
> 
> Microsoft *IS* in a business that takes none of that into account, at the
> level of basic decision making.  There is no inherent force in operation that
> will make them regard my or your opinion in the normal operation of a
> profit-making system.  There is no inherent force that will cause any of their
> decisions to be logical, practical or constructive, other than the impersonal
> cruelties of the marketplace.

Your second paragraph can be basically summed up that there is no economic
incentive for Microsoft to care about the quality of email service they
provide - right?

If yes, don't you agree that Microsoft should ;) simply stop providing the
email service at all? I think this would be better solution that keep up a
service that isn't working properly...
-- 
Regards,
   Jaroslaw Rafa
   r...@rafa.eu.org
--
"In a million years, when kids go to school, they're gonna know: once there
was a Hushpuppy, and she lived with her daddy in the Bathtub."
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Re: [mailop] [EXTERNAL] Re: Registered @ Microsoft JMRP - blacklisted without feedback received

[Hans-Martin Mosner via mailop]

Am 12.05.21 um 09:39 schrieb Michael Rathbun via mailop:
> On Wed, 12 May 2021 08:37:30 +0200, Hans-Martin Mosner via mailop
>  wrote:
>
>> Yet at the same time Microsoft expects "the world" to accept mail from their 
>> customers. 
> It would be difficult to verify this.  There is nobody at MSFT (or at least
> wasn't when I worked there) that pays any attention to whether the freemail
> service is accepted, rejected or even noticed at all.  There are nests of
> people within MSFT who care deeply about all of these things, but it would be
> folly to equate them with Microsoft itself.
>
> mdr

I'm not talking about hotmail/outlook, I'm talking about Office365 customers 
who *do* pay and who would be pretty much
not amused if their mails were broadly rejected.

And I'd wager a bet that most of these (and their MSFT sales buddies if they 
have any) would put the blame squarely on
those who rejected their mails, not on MSFT.

Cheers,
Hans-Martin

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Re: [mailop] [EXTERNAL] Re: Registered @ Microsoft JMRP - blacklisted without feedback received

[Michael Rathbun via mailop]

On Wed, 12 May 2021 09:29:13 +0200, Jaroslaw Rafa via mailop
 wrote:

>But if they do provide it, they should do it well. It's no justification for
>providing a crappy service that it is free. If you are doing something, do
>it well, or don't do it at all.
>
>Sadly, they are so big that they can just get away with providing crappy
>service and there will always be someone like you who will defend them for
>providing crappy service "because of economic realities".

I am mystified by your claim that I am defending MSFT.  My personal history
would contraindicate that strongly.  I do defend the various individuals, many
of whom I count as personal friends, who work within that system.

I have found that, when advising clients, it is best to back carefully away
from "should" and focus intently on "is".  

Microsoft *SHOULD* (in my own personal opinion, and that of many others)
provide the highest quality service they can, taking into account the needs of
all involved parties.

Microsoft *IS* in a business that takes none of that into account, at the
level of basic decision making.  There is no inherent force in operation that
will make them regard my or your opinion in the normal operation of a
profit-making system.  There is no inherent force that will cause any of their
decisions to be logical, practical or constructive, other than the impersonal
cruelties of the marketplace.

mdr
-- 
   Those who can make you believe absurdities 
   can make you commit atrocities.
-- Voltaire

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Re: [mailop] [EXTERNAL] Re: Registered @ Microsoft JMRP - blacklisted without feedback received

[Michael Rathbun via mailop]

On Wed, 12 May 2021 08:37:30 +0200, Hans-Martin Mosner via mailop
 wrote:

>Yet at the same time Microsoft expects "the world" to accept mail from their 
>customers. 

It would be difficult to verify this.  There is nobody at MSFT (or at least
wasn't when I worked there) that pays any attention to whether the freemail
service is accepted, rejected or even noticed at all.  There are nests of
people within MSFT who care deeply about all of these things, but it would be
folly to equate them with Microsoft itself.

mdr
-- 
My study of life and history inclines me to the apothegm "If you insist on
burning bridges, it is often best to cross them before engaging the
incendiaries." --  Shebardigan

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Re: [mailop] [EXTERNAL] Re: Registered @ Microsoft JMRP - blacklisted without feedback received

[Jaroslaw Rafa via mailop]

Dnia 12.05.2021 o godz. 01:13:48 Michael Rathbun via mailop pisze:
> 
> You may wish to take into account economic realities.
> 
> YOU are not a Microsoft customer.
> The RECIPIENTS are not Microsoft customers.
> 
> None of the above parties pays Microsoft a cent.

There is no obligation for anyone (including Microsoft) to provide an unpaid
service. There is no obligation on anyone (including Microsoft) to provide
email service at all. They can simply choose not to do it, if this is an
economic problem to them, and leave it to the smaller players who can manage
it properly. They are already making enough money on other services and
products.

But if they do provide it, they should do it well. It's no justification for
providing a crappy service that it is free. If you are doing something, do
it well, or don't do it at all.

Sadly, they are so big that they can just get away with providing crappy
service and there will always be someone like you who will defend them for
providing crappy service "because of economic realities".

Economic reality is that nobody forced them to provide service on which they
are not making money and which they can't manage. They chose to do it
themselves. So the argument is simply invalid.
-- 
Regards,
   Jaroslaw Rafa
   r...@rafa.eu.org
--
"In a million years, when kids go to school, they're gonna know: once there
was a Hushpuppy, and she lived with her daddy in the Bathtub."
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Re: [mailop] [EXTERNAL] Re: Registered @ Microsoft JMRP - blacklisted without feedback received

[Stefano Bagnara via mailop]

On Wed, 12 May 2021 at 05:08, Michael Wise via mailop  wrote:
> S3150 is throttling.
> Open a ticket and ask for a more realistic hourly/daily throttle limit.

Can you confirm?

This is weird because SMTP error is: "550 5.7.1 Unfortunately,
messages from [IP] weren't sent. Please contact your Internet service
provider since part of their network is on our block list (S3150). You
can also refer your provider to
http://mail.live.com/mail/troubleshooting.aspx#errors.
[DB8EUR05FT023.eop-eur05.prod.protection.outlook.com]"

The SNDS message in the "View IP status" was: "Blocked due to user
complaints or other evidence of spamming"

Also, the IP was unable to send a single message for days until the
mitigation and the message volume for the days before the block was
very low (<500 messages per day).

It really didn't look like "throttling", but the next time it will
happen I'll try that request to the support.

-- 
Stefano Bagnara
Apache James/jDKIM/jSPF
VOXmail/Mosaico.io/VoidLabs
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Re: [mailop] [EXTERNAL] Re: Registered @ Microsoft JMRP - blacklisted without feedback received

[André Peters via mailop]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA256

- -- Originalnachricht --
Von: "Hans-Martin Mosner via mailop" 
An: mailop@mailop.org
Gesendet: 12.05.2021 08:37:30
Betreff: Re: [mailop] [EXTERNAL] Re: Registered @ Microsoft JMRP -
blacklisted without feedback received


Am 12.05.21 um 08:13 schrieb Michael Rathbun via mailop:


 You may wish to take into account economic realities.

 YOU are not a Microsoft customer.
 The RECIPIENTS are not Microsoft customers.

 None of the above parties pays Microsoft a cent.


Yet at the same time Microsoft expects "the world" to accept mail from their 
customers. Neither Microsoft nor their
customers pay "the world" a cent.

I second this. Is it a privilege to be allowed to send MS customers a
mail? That's concerning.

Will we need CALs per MS rcpt in the future?


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Re: [mailop] [EXTERNAL] Re: Registered @ Microsoft JMRP - blacklisted without feedback received

[Hans-Martin Mosner via mailop]

Am 12.05.21 um 08:13 schrieb Michael Rathbun via mailop:
>
> You may wish to take into account economic realities.
>
> YOU are not a Microsoft customer.
> The RECIPIENTS are not Microsoft customers.
>
> None of the above parties pays Microsoft a cent.

Yet at the same time Microsoft expects "the world" to accept mail from their 
customers. Neither Microsoft nor their
customers pay "the world" a cent.

Mail works because operators of mail system accept mail from each other in the 
general case, spam rejection
notwithstanding, well knowing that there is no direct economic incentive in 
doing so.

Part of the implicit duties of operating a mail service is to accept abuse 
reports when one of your customers spams, and
take effective action against it, and on the other hand to accept reports when 
your own spam-rejecting mechanisms
generate false positives, and adjust them accordingly.

If big operators such as Microsoft, Google, IONOS, etc. feel they can get away 
with doing neither of these because of
their "importance", something is severely broken.

Cheers,
Hans-Martin

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Re: [mailop] [EXTERNAL] Re: Registered @ Microsoft JMRP - blacklisted without feedback received

[Michael Rathbun via mailop]

On Tue, 11 May 2021 19:45:28 +0200, André Peters via mailop
 wrote:

>What is this crap good for when it sends one out of 1000? 

 

You may wish to take into account economic realities.

YOU are not a Microsoft customer.
The RECIPIENTS are not Microsoft customers.

None of the above parties pays Microsoft a cent.

Microsoft, Google, and whatever Y!/AOL/VZN may be this week have no inherent
economic interest in facilitating any aspect of your email sending.  Their
efforts at mitigating bad effects of filtering system decisions are tuned
largely toward keeping their users happy and engaged, to the extent that they
are tuned at all in any practical engineering sense.

If your email is important to the recipients, then they should be encouraged
to complain to the provider when it is not delivered -- although they may not
be the customer, they are in fact the product.

mdr
-- 
 "There are no laws here, only agreements."  
-- Masahiko

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Re: [mailop] [EXTERNAL] Re: Registered @ Microsoft JMRP - blacklisted without feedback received

[Michael Wise via mailop]

S3150 is throttling.

Open a ticket and ask for a more realistic hourly/daily throttle limit.

Aloha,
Michael.
--
Michael J Wise
Microsoft Corporation| Spam Analysis
"Your Spam Specimen Has Been Processed."
Open a ticket for Hotmail<http://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkID=614866> ?



-Original Message-
From: mailop  On Behalf Of Stefano Bagnara via mailop
Sent: Tuesday, May 11, 2021 11:01 AM
To: mailop@mailop.org
Subject: Re: [mailop] [EXTERNAL] Re: Registered @ Microsoft JMRP - blacklisted 
without feedback received



On Tue, 11 May 2021 at 19:31, Michael Wise via mailop 
mailto:mailop@mailop.org>> wrote:

> JMRP doesn't send every email reported as spam to the sender.

> Last I heard, it was 1 in 1,000 or some such.

> This is to prevent listwashing, as should be obvious.



But what about SNDS "Complaint rate" and "Trap hits"? Are they about

all of the reports you collect or about the 1/1000 you send via JMRP?



In my case there was nothing at all in SNDS  (green , complaint <0.1%,

no trap hits for every day in the SNDS history), but still I got that

S3150. I've been mitigated when I opened the ticket but I have no clue

what was the issue so I can't fix anything.



If you have abuses that you don't want to shared (and I understand the

listwashing issue) I would expect you to put the counters in SNDS

anyway: am I wrong?



--

Stefano Bagnara

Apache James/jDKIM/jSPF

VOXmail/Mosaico.io/VoidLabs

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Re: [mailop] [EXTERNAL] Re: Registered @ Microsoft JMRP - blacklisted without feedback received

[Stefano Bagnara via mailop]

On Tue, 11 May 2021 at 19:31, Michael Wise via mailop  wrote:
> JMRP doesn’t send every email reported as spam to the sender.
> Last I heard, it was 1 in 1,000 or some such.
> This is to prevent listwashing, as should be obvious.

But what about SNDS "Complaint rate" and "Trap hits"? Are they about
all of the reports you collect or about the 1/1000 you send via JMRP?

In my case there was nothing at all in SNDS  (green , complaint <0.1%,
no trap hits for every day in the SNDS history), but still I got that
S3150. I've been mitigated when I opened the ticket but I have no clue
what was the issue so I can't fix anything.

If you have abuses that you don't want to shared (and I understand the
listwashing issue) I would expect you to put the counters in SNDS
anyway: am I wrong?

-- 
Stefano Bagnara
Apache James/jDKIM/jSPF
VOXmail/Mosaico.io/VoidLabs
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Re: [mailop] [EXTERNAL] Re: Registered @ Microsoft JMRP - blacklisted without feedback received

[Scott Mutter via mailop]

Not to really defend Microsoft here - because I've had my own run-ins with
their system and agree that it doesn't make a lot of sense.

But this isn't an only-Microsoft problem.  Pretty much every big-name mail
service provider will employ similar tactics in some capacity.

I get it... Microsoft and these big-name mail service providers have a lot
of users and a lot of users that complain about spam.  But they don't
exactly do themselves any favors by working with entities that really want
to reduce the abuse on their servers and networks.

I fear that eventually the day will come where external mail really won't
work... have a gmail address and you want to write somebody at a hotmail
address?  Tough luck!  If you want to send an email to a hotmail address
you'll have to sign up for a hotmail address and send your message from
your own hotmail address.  Etc, etc.

If you ask me, it's high-time for a replacement for SMTP to come forward.
The replacement can largely operate just like SMTP, but instead of having a
who's who of meaningless authentication protocols (SPF, DKIM, DMARC) have
some type of standard authentication that all of these SMTP-replacement
servers have to follow.  I won't pretend to know what all of this might
entail.  But there's got to be some way we can move forward with all of
this.  There are just way too many instances of IPs and servers being
blocked/blacklisted with no way to challenge those listings and no way to
be informed of such listings.  Often times it seems like these big-name
mail service providers can just block/blacklist IPs on a whim, because who
is going to challenge them?


On Tue, May 11, 2021 at 12:45 PM André Peters via mailop 
wrote:

> What is this crap good for when it sends one out of 1000? There was not a
> single spam mail that left our system. It was an unwanted mail, not spam
> but just a message they did not like. We have hard rate limits and a no
> mass mail policy. We also check ridiculously detailed for patterns of spam.
>
> It's just one of the most stupid systems on this planet that is NOT
> working because you MS guys are so clever, no, it's still working because
> of its size. No matter who is responsible.  That's sad. Really sad.
>
>
>
> Am 11.05.2021 um 19:39 schrieb Michael Wise via mailop  >:
>
> 
>
>
>
> JMRP doesn’t send every email reported as spam to the sender.
>
> Last I heard, it was 1 in 1,000 or some such.
>
> This is to prevent listwashing, as should be obvious.
>
>
>
> And just ONE mail sent to the wrong address … well … that can get a whole
> lot of IPs blocked if it looks suspicious in the eyes of the investigator.
>
>
>
> Aloha,
>
> Michael.
>
> --
>
> *Michael J Wise*
> Microsoft Corporation| Spam Analysis
>
> "Your Spam Specimen Has Been Processed."
>
> Open a ticket for Hotmail 
> ?
>
>
>
> *From:* mailop  *On Behalf Of *André Peters
> via mailop
> *Sent:* Tuesday, May 11, 2021 5:38 AM
> *To:* mailop 
> *Subject:* [EXTERNAL] Re: [mailop] Registered @ Microsoft JMRP -
> blacklisted without feedback received
>
>
>
> IMO it's a totally useless system.
>
>
>
> We have had ASNs blocked without a single complaint prior to it. Not a
> single one.
>
>
>
> Once every 2-3 month we get a complaint and contact the complaining
> person. Out of ~10 times it was only ONCE a mail, that the rcpt did not
> want to receive.
>
>
>
> If you want to receive mail, don't register with MS. I cannot say this
> often enough.
>
>
>
> To add a small hint: Try to send ~the same mail volume and don't cause
> peaks. Do not send to too many recipients in one session.
>
>
>
> Funny enough we receive a lot of spam from MS at the moment...
>
>
>
> -- Originalnachricht --
>
> Von: "Laura Atkins via mailop" 
>
> An: "mailop" 
>
> Gesendet: 11.05.2021 14:25:11
>
> Betreff: Re: [mailop] Registered @ Microsoft JMRP - blacklisted without
> feedback received
>
>
>
> Given you are the service provider, the best place to look is in your
> abuse queue. Look for complaints about mail from that IP (and surrounding
> IPs) going back for a while. Typically, the consumer ISPs will put mail in
> the bulk folder for a while before escalating to a block. When the mail is
> going to bulk you will not see complaints as users cannot send FBL messages
> related to mail in the bulk folder. This means low complaint rates
> immediately before a block Do Not Mean that the mail is fine. In fact, it
> often means that the mail is already identified as spam. You need to go
> back further, to before MS was putting the messages in the bulk folder, in
> order to see complaints about it.
>
>
>
> Going back over time will give you some information about what customer
> and what mail streams were causing problems. That should give you some
> insight into which customers you need to address to get the block lifted.
>
>
>
> The other place to look is your outbound logs. What are your customers
> doing and what types of mail are they sending? Did 

Re: [mailop] [EXTERNAL] Re: Registered @ Microsoft JMRP - blacklisted without feedback received

[Anne P. Mitchell, Esq. via mailop]

> On May 11, 2021, at 11:45 AM, André Peters via mailop  
> wrote:
> 
> because you MS guys are so clever,

I'd like to suggest that personal attacks, *especially* on such a trusted, 
respected member of the community - not to mention one who is one of the good 
guys, is not only unwarranted, but gouche.  Michael puts up with a *lot* to be 
here and to be helpful, he doesn't need personal attacks on top of it all.

Anne  (Who has known Michael for nearly 20 years)
--
Anne P. Mitchell,  Attorney at Law
Dean of Cyberlaw and Cyber Security, Lincoln Law School
Author: Section 6 of the Federal Email Marketing Law (CAN-SPAM)
Board of Directors, Denver Internet Exchange
Chair Emeritus, Asilomar Microcomputer Workshop
Former Counsel: MAPS Anti-Spam Blacklist
Location: Boulder, Colorado
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Re: [mailop] [EXTERNAL] Re: Registered @ Microsoft JMRP - blacklisted without feedback received

[Thomas Walter via mailop]

On 11.05.21 19:45, André Peters via mailop wrote:
> What is this crap good for when it sends one out of 1000? There was not
> a single spam mail that left our system. It was an unwanted mail, not
> spam but just a message they did not like. We have hard rate limits and
> a no mass mail policy. We also check ridiculously detailed for patterns
> of spam. 

This has been discussed here before. One reason for most of the reports
I get is from users that have a language barrier that obscures the
difference between Junk and Trash for deleted e-mails.

Another issue is that a lot of users think of spam as being "unwanted"
email nowadays.

I am actually avoiding Bayes filtering, because I don't feel I can trust
our users with their decisions.

Regards,
Thomas Walter

-- 
Thomas Walter
Datenverarbeitungszentrale

FH Münster
- University of Applied Sciences -
Corrensstr. 25, Raum B 112
48149 Münster

Tel: +49 251 83 64 908
Fax: +49 251 83 64 910
www.fh-muenster.de/dvz/



smime.p7s
Description: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature
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Re: [mailop] [EXTERNAL] Re: Registered @ Microsoft JMRP - blacklisted without feedback received

[Michael Wise via mailop]

JMRP doesn't send every email reported as spam to the sender.
Last I heard, it was 1 in 1,000 or some such.
This is to prevent listwashing, as should be obvious.

And just ONE mail sent to the wrong address ... well ... that can get a whole 
lot of IPs blocked if it looks suspicious in the eyes of the investigator.

Aloha,
Michael.
--
Michael J Wise
Microsoft Corporation| Spam Analysis
"Your Spam Specimen Has Been Processed."
Open a ticket for Hotmail ?

From: mailop  On Behalf Of André Peters via mailop
Sent: Tuesday, May 11, 2021 5:38 AM
To: mailop 
Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: [mailop] Registered @ Microsoft JMRP - blacklisted 
without feedback received

IMO it's a totally useless system.

We have had ASNs blocked without a single complaint prior to it. Not a single 
one.

Once every 2-3 month we get a complaint and contact the complaining person. Out 
of ~10 times it was only ONCE a mail, that the rcpt did not want to receive.

If you want to receive mail, don't register with MS. I cannot say this often 
enough.

To add a small hint: Try to send ~the same mail volume and don't cause peaks. 
Do not send to too many recipients in one session.

Funny enough we receive a lot of spam from MS at the moment...

-- Originalnachricht --
Von: "Laura Atkins via mailop" mailto:mailop@mailop.org>>
An: "mailop" mailto:mailop@mailop.org>>
Gesendet: 11.05.2021 14:25:11
Betreff: Re: [mailop] Registered @ Microsoft JMRP - blacklisted without 
feedback received

Given you are the service provider, the best place to look is in your abuse 
queue. Look for complaints about mail from that IP (and surrounding IPs) going 
back for a while. Typically, the consumer ISPs will put mail in the bulk folder 
for a while before escalating to a block. When the mail is going to bulk you 
will not see complaints as users cannot send FBL messages related to mail in 
the bulk folder. This means low complaint rates immediately before a block Do 
Not Mean that the mail is fine. In fact, it often means that the mail is 
already identified as spam. You need to go back further, to before MS was 
putting the messages in the bulk folder, in order to see complaints about it.

Going back over time will give you some information about what customer and 
what mail streams were causing problems. That should give you some insight into 
which customers you need to address to get the block lifted.

The other place to look is your outbound logs. What are your customers doing 
and what types of mail are they sending? Did any customer have an unexpected 
spike in volume? This can often indicate a system may have been compromised and 
being used to send spam / malware. Sometimes it just means someone got the idea 
that sending 'cold outreach mail' was a good idea.

Those are the two places I'd start my investigation in your situation.

laura




On 11 May 2021, at 12:54, Benoit Panizzon via mailop 
mailto:mailop@mailop.org>> wrote:

Dear List

One of our main smtp outbound ip addresses is blocked by microsoft.

host 
outlook-com.olc.protection.outlook.com[104.47.10.33]
 said: 550 5.7.1
Unfortunately, messages from [157.161.12.84] weren't sent. Please
contact
your Internet service provider since part of their network is on our
block
list (S3150). You can also refer your provider to
http://mail.live.com/mail/troubleshooting.aspx#errors.
[DB5EUR03FT006.eop-EUR03.prod.protection.outlook.com]
 (in reply to MAIL
FROM command)

I checked our JMRP entries. This IP is listed as one of our
mailservers. The complaint rate is < 0.1% but it had 2 'trap' hits and
is in status red.

Our abuse desk email address is registered for the ARF feedback loop
for the ip range in question.

We usually get a lot of feedback loop emails, mostly false positives