RE: MD: Will MD Survive? / CD copy protection
From: Simon Gardner I think it also results in the CD player putting out a duff SPDIF stream too, preventing them from being copied digitally to MD. If that's true, the CDs will be useless for those of us with outboard DACs. I checked the manufacturer's site and as I'd feared, there was no information of real substance...just market-speak. They claim that "CACTUS DATA SHIELD prohibits Internet-piracy by preventing unauthorised transmission of digital files (music, software, and video) over the Internet" which is of course completely ridiculous. There's nothing to stop the digital recording of an analogue source. All they're doing is making it a bit more trouble by adding a step to the process. Rick. -+--- [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.alienshore.com/ - To stop getting this list send a message containing just the word "unsubscribe" to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: MD: Will MD Survive? / CD copy protection
I think it also results in the CD player putting out a duff SPDIF stream too, preventing them from being copied digitally to MD. If that's true, the CDs will be useless for those of us with outboard DACs. I checked the manufacturer's site and as I'd feared, there was no information of real substance...just market-speak. If you can't play it on your CD player, the goods are "unfit for the purpose" and you have the right to return them. I'm guessing that plenty of people have older CD players (at least in the kitchen/car, etc); if everyone took back their copies they'll make no money and the stores will think twice about bothering to stock their products again. Just like the DVD CSS, this seems to be security through obscurity - taking the "we'll just say it's uncrackable and not let anyone have specs and we'll be fine" attitude. -- Simon - To stop getting this list send a message containing just the word "unsubscribe" to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: MD: Will MD Survive? / CD copy protection
Rick Pali wrote: I think it also results in the CD player putting out a duff SPDIF stream too, preventing them from being copied digitally to MD. If that's true, the CDs will be useless for those of us with outboard DACs. I checked the manufacturer's site and as I'd feared, there was no information of real substance...just market-speak. Luckily, that doesn't seem to be the case (again in german): http://www.heise.de/newsticker/data/cm-26.01.00-000/ Neither SPDIF outputs nor Audio CD-Copiers like the Philips CDR-765 were affected by the protection. Copies made with the Philips did not contain the protection. So all the people who bought these devices don't look so foolish anymore, eh ? ;) The trick seems to be a fake TOC that gives a runtime of 28 seconds for the CD. PC CD-ROM drives get fooled by this and stop reading. What's interesting is that the article says ALL CD players display a runtime of 28 seconds. So apparently you not only lose the ability to play the CD from your PC, your Hi-Fi CD player looks pretty dumb as well. Alexander Dietrich -- | Alexander Dietrich | Norderstedt, Germany | | e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] | - To stop getting this list send a message containing just the word "unsubscribe" to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: MD: Will MD Survive?
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Dave brings up a very good point: MP3 players are purely tech-toys (at least at this point). It's the PalmPilot of music. I think that it will succeed as a portable computing device dedicated to music reproduction. This is quite different than CD or MD, which are portable music devices. Ehh... Don't compare a MP3 player with a PalmPilot... It's not fear. The PalmPilot is the most usefull organiser in the world. It does everything you need in an organiser and nothing more. Period. It's portable and it has a long battery live. I know nobody who stopped using his PalmPilot after (s)he bought it. On the other hand, MP3 players are impractical and have some major design flaws. Example: What is 20 hours of playing time worth if the flash-ram can only contain 1 hour of music? Cheers, Ralph -- === Ralph SmeetsFunctional Verification Centre Of Competence - CMG Voice: (+33) (0)4 76 58 44 46 STMicroelectronics Fax:(+33) (0)4 76 58 40 11 5, chem de la Dhuy Mobile: (+33) (0)6 82 66 62 70 38240 MEYLAN E-Mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] FRANCE === "For many years, mankind lived just like the animals. And then something happened that unleashed the powers of our imagination: We learned to talk." -- Stephen Hawking, later used by Pink Floyd -- === - To stop getting this list send a message containing just the word "unsubscribe" to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: MD: Will MD Survive? (Why MP3 is so popular).
My point is that today, MiniDisc is complaint with the RIAA's wishes, and so it is boring compared to MP3. The copyprotected MP3 that the recording industry wants is not so interesting. You can't compare MD to MP3; MiniDisc is the dignified gent with the tweed jacket having a beer with the local cop, MP3 is the rebel freedom fighter. When the information revolution is over, the freedom figher will be gone (or, he'll be in a tweed jacket by then). Rick has hit the nail on the head here. MP3 is popular becuase it offers free music, its a pirates dream come true. The recent mergers/deals that have been announced recently (Warner/EMI and Microsoft/Liqid Audio) will probably hasten MP3's replacement with a more "secure" format. The only thing the consumer needs then is a medium to archive that music on, and I believe MD will fill this role. Riggs [EMAIL PROTECTED] "Whoever fights monsters should see to it that he does not become a monster himself." - To stop getting this list send a message containing just the word "unsubscribe" to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: MD: Will MD Survive?
At 01:29 01/25/00 , you wrote: Albert Tanone wrote: I'm still using my R30 (just recorded a Broadway performance this past Sunday!) but I'm now in the market for a portable MP3 player. But you can't do that with MP3.. And you completely missed my point as well. :) MP3 was and is never intended as a portable recording medium... Read the rest of my message as to why I wanted a portable mp3 PLAYER... Albert - To stop getting this list send a message containing just the word "unsubscribe" to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: MD: Will MD Survive?
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Ralph Smeets wrote: Ehh... Don't compare a MP3 player with a PalmPilot... It's not fear. The PalmPilot is the most usefull organiser in the world. Hey, what about Casiopia? -- Jim Coon mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] What about battery live? How long does it take to switch from your adresbook to your agenda? Cheers, Ralph -- === Ralph SmeetsFunctional Verification Centre Of Competence - CMG Voice: (+33) (0)4 76 58 44 46 STMicroelectronics Fax:(+33) (0)4 76 58 40 11 5, chem de la Dhuy Mobile: (+33) (0)6 82 66 62 70 38240 MEYLAN E-Mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] FRANCE === "For many years, mankind lived just like the animals. And then something happened that unleashed the powers of our imagination: We learned to talk." -- Stephen Hawking, later used by Pink Floyd -- === - To stop getting this list send a message containing just the word "unsubscribe" to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: MD: Will MD Survive?
Well... I have a Palm V and used it the first week and never used it again (to be fair, I didn't buy it with my own money, so that may have *something* to do with it). I have a Roladex REX personal organizer that I use every day and rely on it. The REX has about 1/100 of the functionality of the Palm V, but it's soo convenient that I'm able to take it with me anywhere and everywhere. If MP3 is as convenient to people as the REX is convenient to me, the simpler, more ergonomic solution will win, even at the cost of functionality. When MP3/solid-state machines can inexpensively handle 100MB+ of data, it will be more compelling than MD due to the raw number of songs you can bring with you without any extra media. Once you can quickly DL 500 songs to your car/personal MP3/solid state player, you'll see someone like me (an AVID MD user) buy it too. Jon Deutsch http://midiservices.com http://midi.com http://theopinion.com -Original Message- From: Ralph Smeets [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Tuesday, January 25, 2000 4:33 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: MD: Will MD Survive? Ehh... Don't compare a MP3 player with a PalmPilot... It's not fear. The PalmPilot is the most usefull organiser in the world. It does everything you need in an organiser and nothing more. Period. It's portable and it has a long battery live. I know nobody who stopped using his PalmPilot after (s)he bought it. On the other hand, MP3 players are impractical and have some major design flaws. Example: What is 20 hours of playing time worth if the flash-ram can only contain 1 hour of music? Cheers, Ralph - To stop getting this list send a message containing just the word "unsubscribe" to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: MD: Will MD Survive? (Why MP3 is so popular).
=== = NB: Over 50% of this message is QUOTED, please = = be more selective when quoting text = === Because SONY is a consumer electronics company as WELL as a publishing house, they are NOT releasing an MP3 unit. They are, however, releasing a "memory stick" (MS) walkman. This walkman will not play MP3s, but will play that post-MP3 format (RIAA approved) developed by the music industry to contain pirating. Also, this MS Walkman is *small*! Memsticks are currently 64MB and will be 128MB this year. I wonder how SONY's marketing department is handling the conflict between MS and MD? It's pretty obvious that Memsticks are even more convenient than MDs (though, much more expensive), and if the MS Walkman also supported ATRAC, it could one day replace the MD medium altogether (128MB isn't that far from MD's capacity of 150MB). After all, a solid state machine is much more battery-friendly and less prone to breaking. So, let's open up the conversation to any solid-state music devices vs. MD. Jon Deutsch http://midiservices.com http://midi.com http://theopinion.com -Original Message- From: Riggs [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Tuesday, January 25, 2000 5:31 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: MD: Will MD Survive? (Why MP3 is so popular). My point is that today, MiniDisc is complaint with the RIAA's wishes, and so it is boring compared to MP3. The copyprotected MP3 that the recording industry wants is not so interesting. You can't compare MD to MP3; MiniDisc is the dignified gent with the tweed jacket having a beer with the local cop, MP3 is the rebel freedom fighter. When the information revolution is over, the freedom figher will be gone (or, he'll be in a tweed jacket by then). Rick has hit the nail on the head here. MP3 is popular becuase it offers free music, its a pirates dream come true. The recent mergers/deals that have been announced recently (Warner/EMI and Microsoft/Liqid Audio) will probably hasten MP3's replacement with a more "secure" format. The only thing the consumer needs then is a medium to archive that music on, and I believe MD will fill this role. Riggs [EMAIL PROTECTED] "Whoever fights monsters should see to it that he does not become a monster himself." - To stop getting this list send a message containing just the word "unsubscribe" to [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To stop getting this list send a message containing just the word "unsubscribe" to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: MD: Will MD Survive? (Why MP3 is so popular).
Eric Woudenberg wrote: Hi, The whole problem is the copy problem, and it keeps recording industry executives awake at night. Today using MP3, music can be stored and distributed audio over the 'net without impediment. The recording industry is working hard to change this. In SDMI phase II, CDs will contain compression-proof watermarks that players will recognize (see https://www.sdmi.org/dscgi/ds.py/Get/File-611/sdmiaug9.htm). The intention is to thwart the free and easy movement of unpurchased audio that MP3 has made possible. If this CD is going to have a compression-proof watermark, how will the MD get "around" this watermark? James Tisdale - To stop getting this list send a message containing just the word "unsubscribe" to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: MD: Will MD Survive? (Why MP3 is so popular).
From: James Tisdale [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, January 25, 2000 9:06 PM Subject: Re: MD: Will MD Survive? (Why MP3 is so popular). If this CD is going to have a compression-proof watermark, how will the MD get "around" this watermark? The way I read it, the compression proof part just means the watermark can still be read after compressing the audio, not that it will stop you being able to record the music in a compressed format. It sounds like it works in the same way that a Digimark on a photograph, which can survive several stages of JPEG compression down to low quality. Some images with watermarks embedded can still have the watermark read after JPEG compression down to as low as 10%! Magic -- "Creativity is more a birthright than an acquisition, and the power of sound is wisdom and understanding applied to the power of vibration." Location : Portsmouth, England, UK Homepage : http://www.mattnet.freeserve.co.uk EMail : [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To stop getting this list send a message containing just the word "unsubscribe" to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: MD: Will MD Survive? (Why MP3 is so popular).
As usual, I appreciate Rick's knowledgeable and thoughtful writing. However, I think he comes from the industry perspective, that they are the providers of content. By way of contrast, I volunteer in college radio. A popular perception in that community is that there's plenty of good stuff out there, and the record companies are hindering things often as not. The following just came across the radio station's list: `The studios [meaning "record companies"], for their part, scoff at the notion [of MP3]. "What are they going to do?" asks Jeffrey Neuberger, an attorney who represents several major labels. "Present you with an undifferentiated mass of music, most of which is garbage, and let you randomly browse through it, on the theory that maybe you might find something you like?" In Neuberger's view, the need for AR is almost too obvious to be worth discussing.' Doesn't his description of MP3.com's site come scintillatingly close to the output of the typical major label, the contents of the typical record store, and the ads in a typical music magazine? To these folks, MP3 spells ultimate freedom from the labels. If they choke themselves off sooner by insisting on cumbersome hindrances, so much the better. Yes, the major labels should stay awake late nights wondering how to avoid winding up like the last maker of horse-buggy whips. What isn't yet clear is how the economics of new-media music distribution would work. (It wasn't really clear that "open software" companies like Red Hat would be successful, either -- actually, some say the jury's still out). And certainly, the technology lacks cost-effectiveness and maturity with MD. I keep saying that the trends indicate this may change sooner than we expect, but personally, "Eat, drink, be merry" is my attitude toward MD. Romain Kang Siemens Info/Comm Products, San Jose RD [EMAIL PROTECTED] formerly Pyramid Technology Corporation Disclaimer: I represent myself alone, except where otherwise indicated. - To stop getting this list send a message containing just the word "unsubscribe" to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: MD: Will MD Survive?
Shawn Lin wrote: "I like the idea of a portable MD recorder with a USB port. When plugged into a Mac or PC, all you have to do is drag drop your MP3 files to an MD icon. A few seconds later, the process is complete, the MP3's are all in the MD. Maybe the MD recorder *should* have a built-in MP3 decoder. Right click on the MD icon, and under a "Properties..." menu, there is a checkbox "Audio MD Compatibility Mode". If the checkbox is unchecked, the MP3's are copied directly to MD as MP3's with around 140-minutes of stereo MP3 audio capacity, only playable on that particular recorder. If the checkbox is checked, the MP3's are processed by a high-speed codec that converts the MP3 format to ATRAC and then can save 74-minutes of stereo audio playable on ANY MD player." I think this is exactly where the MD format needs to go if it wants to survive the MP3 onslaught. I mentioned something like this about two months ago and didn't get much response. Perhaps I stated things poorly. John Deutsch also stated that "(MD needs to be) COMPLIMENTARY technology to MP3." IMHO, this is the only way MD will stick around. Heck it might even gain wide-spread acceptance! MP3 players with the 40 MB Iomega Clik! Disks could work since the cost/MB is much lower than flash memory. But at US $0.25/MB for the Clik! Disks versus the roughly US $0.02/MB cost of MD, the MD seems to be the perfect storage medium with a whopping 140MB of data capacity! Not to mention that MD would be a dual function format (ATRAC MP3) that can record. Just my 2 cents worth. Does anyone know if there might be someone with influential power at Sony that keeps tabs on this mailing list? This is the way to find out what the consumer really wants. Craig Bernard - To stop getting this list send a message containing just the word "unsubscribe" to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: MD: Will MD Survive? (Why MP3 is so popular).
Jon Deusch mentioned something about Sony's Memory Stick Walkman. I have the last issue of Stereo Review's Sound and Vision in front of me. There is an article about the Sony Memory Stick and all of it's uses. This is what it says about the NW-MS7 Memory Stick Walkman: "You might be surprised to learn that the Memory Stick Walkman isn't an MP3 player. You can use it to play MP3 files - but only after they've been converted to the Walkman's ATRAC3 format. (ATRAC3 is based on the MiniDisc encoding format, but it's said to have twice the encoding efficiency.) Transcoding software that will be supplied with the Walkman will convert MP3 files to ATRAC3 for playback." The article also says the the Walkman will support regular Memory Sticks and the "MagicGate" Memory Stick that supports the Secure Digital Music Initiative (SDMI). "SDMI is a forum that is developing specifications for digital music distribution, its primary goal being to protect copyrighted music from illegal copying." Maybe this is Sony's final answer to MP3. They have to protect their own interests as a recording label and a hybrid MD/MP3 unit wouldn't do that. But what if they incorporated SDMI support into a new hybrid unit? I don't know, it seems to me like Sony may be placing all it's bets on solid state technology. I really don't have a problem with it as long as it's as easy to use as MD and memory gets into the same price range as a blank MD (not likely to happen any time soon). I guess I would also want the ability to do real time live recording. What it really comes down to is that I still think MD is the coolest, and most convenient and portable medium out there. Just add the ability to store MP3's on the blank MD's with players that will decode them! Craig Bernard - To stop getting this list send a message containing just the word "unsubscribe" to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: MD: Will MD Survive?
Even the majority of untrained ears appreciate a good sounding format/system. I've had that commented to me on many occasions when I've happily demonstrated my car setup fronted by my 8900. From the reactions I get out of that alone, it is proof enough for me that you don't have to be an audiophile to appreciate a good sound. Probably a good reason why most of them went about actually investing in MD's themselves 3#-) Adios, LarZ --- TAMA - The Strongest Name in Drums --- -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of Shawn R. Lin Sent: Monday, 24 January 2000 18:18 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject:Re: MD: Will MD Survive? Sure, maybe to YOU and select audiophiles that really care about sound quality. But mass acceptance and becoming mainstream have very little to do with sound quality. MP3 would not be nearly as popular as it is now if sound - To stop getting this list send a message containing just the word "unsubscribe" to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: MD: Will MD Survive?
At 02:07 + 24/1/00, Magic wrote: but unless Sony wise up and do some serious marketing I see MD being threatened quite seriously you'll still be able to get blank MDs for years though, I can still get Betamax video cassette and that format has been all but dead for years (more's the pity IMHO). Hey folks - time for the de-lurk. Anyway, as a recent MD adopter, I thought through all of this stuff rather seriously. My decision was MP3 player versus MD - I wanted a small, portable format since I'm on the go a lot. When I compared the two for many reasons (sound quality, cost, versatility, functionality...the list goes on...), I went MD and I have absolutely no regrets. Everyone that I've showed the MD stuff to thinks it is "the coolest little thing in the world." My wife, skeptical at first, was an immediate convert, so off we went for another portable unit! So I think that Sony and the others could really make a convincing case for the MD. But I do agree with most posters that some level of computer integration (USB, etc.) would make the MD stronger... But with the right marketing, Sony (and others) could really kick some ass here - even as MD exists currently. And I have some level of comparison, being that I live in Spain now and visit the US frequently. In Spain - in Barcelona at least - there was a MD 'campaign' with spots before the movies and billboards. Most electronics chains carry a varying range of MD equipment, and at Christmas time, the stuff seemed to be moving rather quickly. I couldn't even get near most of the MD displays in the bigger stores; it was just too crowded. I'd say that among the teenager-under30 group here, most people here know what MD is and think it is cool. Compare this to the US where no one really knew what my MD player was, where equipment was somewhat harder to find, and where publicity wasn't quite as strong...well, you get the idea. So come on, Sony, get on the ball and market! With the right push, MD will be here to stay without a doubt. best regards, and thanks to all for many informative and entertaining messages. bob p.s. copyright debate stuff aside (I don't want to start another holy war), are there any folks on the list in Spain/Barcelona who want to swap MDs? --- Bob Torres Ph.D. Candidate - Development Sociology Department of Rural Sociology Cornell University, 133A Warren Hall Ithaca, NY 14853 USA tel:215-487-3415 - To stop getting this list send a message containing just the word "unsubscribe" to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: MD: Will MD Survive?
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Tape cassettes are virtually dead any more. Most of my younger friends don't have a single tape playing device. The market is very narrow if Ever look at a car? Most cars (in the US, anyway) have tape decks, and *only* tape decks. Car CD players are still prohibitively expensive, and I know a number of folks who keep many tapes to listen to in the car. Also, If you go to any major music store (Tower Records, Record Town, etc.) you *will* find huge selections of cassettes. If the market isn't there, they wouldn't have a selection that big. /Andrew -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: 2.6.3ia Charset: noconv iQCVAwUBOIyAILVO5F5M77LBAQEDegP/bJmcvaUAedhNaiVIuU0MrRJlPQKcsSqA ISztaLGgppC8MlUFqO1MuavKm9mUdPg2yhlJHrGlegpnX0iHCiEn6M8t99ETDQPT K4tYR2puI/oCQJTF2kyf8NNuavZMIcVKIvu9aslJ2KP2Rk3+Cdx1tTJEmJMqDya3 0qEQ4JZfDng= =EZxb -END PGP SIGNATURE- - To stop getting this list send a message containing just the word "unsubscribe" to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: MD: Will MD Survive?
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- an audiophile to appreciate a good sound. Probably a good reason why most of them went about actually investing in MD's themselves 3#-) After playing my '702 for a number of friends, at least 7 of them have since gone out and purchased MD units (either 702, 722, 831, or R55). Why? They saw the size of the discs, the *durability* of the discs and the units, saw that you can not only play back but *record* in the palm of your hand, and that the quality was practically indistinguishable from CD, even on a set of high quality headphones (I usually demo my MD with my Sony MDR-V600 phones). /Andrew -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: 2.6.3ia Charset: noconv iQCVAwUBOIyA6rVO5F5M77LBAQHVxwP9FdS0QG68De1KTFvWhxNNuArD00vkYS1O dNzgq9NZj/LH5OU1UKsSRx2fpQG7j6fWvAcbI3PqbywJqd41OafknfHc26Z+AiOL PVIGeh19BB9dAhc1SrIH9hvqgFAe4sh6x0738RFJW5MeBgLtPvjPMD9X2MoeWtsD jzXSuA29vfQ= =U+uQ -END PGP SIGNATURE- - To stop getting this list send a message containing just the word "unsubscribe" to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: MD: Will MD Survive?
Andrew Hobgood wrote: Tape cassettes are virtually dead any more. Most of my younger friends don't have a single tape playing device. The market is very narrow if Ever look at a car? Most cars (in the US, anyway) have tape decks, and *only* tape decks. Car CD players are still prohibitively expensive, and I know a number of folks who keep many tapes to listen to in the car. Also, If you go to any major music store (Tower Records, Record Town, etc.) you *will* find huge selections of cassettes. If the market isn't there, they wouldn't have a selection that big. Maybe smaller cities are more technologically ahead? Most newer cars are ordered with factory CD players any more from what I've seen. Even my old 1990 Pontiac has a factory CD player. Most new GM cars have a combination CD/tape player in a double-DIN slot. Every single one of my friends and both my sisters yanked out their factory tape players and put in aftermarket CD players a long time ago. That seems to be the case with almost everyone I've met that are in Sony's prime target age group for MD marketing. No such thing as either Tower Records or Record Town around here. Just Hastings, Best Buy, Circuit City, and what use to be Blockbuster Music is now Wharehouse music or some such thing. None of them have many prerecorded cassettes anymore. -- Shawn Lin http://www2.cybercities.com/g/gmwbodycars/ __ NetZero - Defenders of the Free World Get your FREE Internet Access and Email at http://www.netzero.net/download/index.html - To stop getting this list send a message containing just the word "unsubscribe" to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: MD: Will MD Survive?
It's the old Betamax vs VHS argument again. Betamax was undoubtedly the better format - smaller size tapes with higher quality pictures and sound, and the tapes were slightly longer!(Stainless Steel Rat) Actually, Betamax had a *shorter* recording time than VHS, and that is the main reason why VHS won out over Beta. When VHS was first introduced, Betamax could only record one hour on a tape (versus VHS's two hours), which was impractical for Americans who wanted to tape television movies. As the competition intensified between the two formats, VHS continued to pull ahead in recording time. Betamax didn't have a chance because Sony was too stupid to consider surveys indicating the American preference for longer recording time. As for the MP3-MD debate, Sony would be smart to consider bundling a cheap portable recorder with an optical out sound card. That would put its product in electronic stores' PC departments so that minidisc could compete with MP3. At Best Buy at least, MP3 players are merchandised in the Home Audio Department as well as in the PCHO Department, and in the PCHO Department, MP3 players can be found on a prominent front endcap, in the back lock-up wall, *and* (beginning this week) in the multimedia peripherals section. Sony desperately needs to play catch up if it wants to win this popularity contest! Daryl - To stop getting this list send a message containing just the word "unsubscribe" to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: MD: Will MD Survive?
I agree completely. I think that market could be completely replaced by MD over time. -- Martin -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Andrew Hobgood Sent: Monday, January 24, 2000 11:39 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: MD: Will MD Survive? -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Tape cassettes are virtually dead any more. Most of my younger friends don't have a single tape playing device. The market is very narrow if Ever look at a car? Most cars (in the US, anyway) have tape decks, and *only* tape decks. Car CD players are still prohibitively expensive, and I know a number of folks who keep many tapes to listen to in the car. Also, If you go to any major music store (Tower Records, Record Town, etc.) you *will* find huge selections of cassettes. If the market isn't there, they wouldn't have a selection that big. /Andrew -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: 2.6.3ia Charset: noconv iQCVAwUBOIyAILVO5F5M77LBAQEDegP/bJmcvaUAedhNaiVIuU0MrRJlPQKcsSqA ISztaLGgppC8MlUFqO1MuavKm9mUdPg2yhlJHrGlegpnX0iHCiEn6M8t99ETDQPT K4tYR2puI/oCQJTF2kyf8NNuavZMIcVKIvu9aslJ2KP2Rk3+Cdx1tTJEmJMqDya3 0qEQ4JZfDng= =EZxb -END PGP SIGNATURE- - To stop getting this list send a message containing just the word "unsubscribe" to [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To stop getting this list send a message containing just the word "unsubscribe" to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: MD: Will MD Survive?
I still maintain that if here in North America we could somehow magically plant a portable MD in everyone's hands for just one weekend..MD would be the biggest thing since Marge Simpson's hair..there has never been a sexier audio medium than the minidisc.period! Tom - To stop getting this list send a message containing just the word "unsubscribe" to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: MD: Will MD Survive?
Blanks may actually be where the money is made on MD. I doubt that - I pay less for blank (branded) MDs than branded CDR, and the MDs come in their plastic jackets, with the shutter + labels, etc. MD has a smaller potential market too, so there's no economy of scale going on. It's hardly like Iomega where they charge a fortune for blank media (Zip 100 discs over 7UKP!) because they have a captive market. -- Simon - To stop getting this list send a message containing just the word "unsubscribe" to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: MD: Will MD Survive?
Tom ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: I still maintain that if here in North America we could somehow magically plant a portable MD in everyone's hands for just one weekend..MD would be the biggest thing since Marge Simpson's hair..there has never been a sexier audio medium than the minidisc.period! Response: I agree with this comment. It seems to me that most people that I've come in contact with are just ignorant about MD and it's advantages. Not to mention that the populace is just too confused to decide which format is best (e.g. MD, CD-R/RW, MP3). I just wish Sony and other MD-supportive companies would get on the ball with heavier advertising. I believe MD is the natural evolutionary progression from CD, and I see no reason why they can't live in peace together -- with MP3 as a *side* format for either playing on computer or transferring to MD or CD-R(W)! J. C. R. Davis ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) - To stop getting this list send a message containing just the word "unsubscribe" to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: MD: Will MD Survive?
===
= NB: Over 50% of this message is QUOTED, please =
= be more selective when quoting text =
===
While this is absolutely true, I find it {humorous/ironic/something} that
one of the big sticking points for MDs initial acceptance as a medium was
that it wasn't "truly CD quality" (esp. ATRACT v1.0). So many mags were
like "yeah, MD is cool and all, but the quality isn't quite there."
Meanwhile, even the very first MD is lightyears ahead of most MP3 quality.
It just goes to show that digitally downloading pirated songs is the "killer
app" -- not portability.
Jon Deutsch
http://midiservices.com
http://midi.com
http://theopinion.com
-Original Message-
From: Shawn R. Lin [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Monday, January 24, 2000 2:18 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: MD: Will MD Survive?
Sure, maybe to YOU and select audiophiles that really care about sound
quality.
But mass acceptance and becoming mainstream have very little
to do with
sound quality. MP3 would not be nearly as popular as it is
now if sound
quality was a significant factor. All my MP3 loving friends
KNOW MP3's
sound quality isn't as good as MD or CD. They don't care.
Not a single
one of them. "It's good enough for me", or "I can't tell the
If the average consumer asks an electronics store employee about a
product's sound quality, "Yes, it's pretty good" is usually an
acceptable answer.
--
Shawn Lin
http://www2.cybercities.com/g/gmwbodycars/
__
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RE: MD: Will MD Survive?
=== = NB: Over 50% of this message is QUOTED, please = = be more selective when quoting text = === Dave brings up a very good point: MP3 players are purely tech-toys (at least at this point). It's the PalmPilot of music. I think that it will succeed as a portable computing device dedicated to music reproduction. This is quite different than CD or MD, which are portable music devices. Jon Deutsch http://midiservices.com http://midi.com http://theopinion.com -Original Message- From: Dave Helgerson [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Monday, January 24, 2000 2:09 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: MD: Will MD Survive? MP3 is hot because the internet is hot. I don't know anyone who has an MP3 player, so I can't get any first-hand info, but I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of people who buy one quit using it after a few weeks. Especially people who bought it as an audio device, vs. a computer toy. I could see hardcore computer users continuing to use them, but the person who is more an audio lover and not a computer lover might get frustrated pretty quickly by constantly having to download and transfer files. Does anyone else have a feel for the long-term satisfaction of MP3 users? - To stop getting this list send a message containing just the word "unsubscribe" to [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To stop getting this list send a message containing just the word "unsubscribe" to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: MD: Will MD Survive?
MP3 is hot because the internet is hot. I don't know anyone who has an MP3 player, so I can't get any first-hand info, but I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of people who buy one quit using it after a few weeks. Especially people who bought it as an audio device, vs. a computer toy. I could see hardcore computer users continuing to use them, but the person who is more an audio lover and not a computer lover might get frustrated pretty quickly by constantly having to download and transfer files. Does anyone else have a feel for the long-term satisfaction of MP3 users? This is a very interesting idea that i was able to explore a while back. As a private contractor i had to place a very large order of computer components and i must have overspent enough because they didn't argue with me when i was done when i told them that they should throw in a rio because i spent so much. anyway after getting it i did a short review for www.upgradecenter.com on portable MD vs MP3 (the review is long gone from the site) anyway the rio just plain old sucks. It's laying around here somewhere and never gets used. there are just to many things wrong with it that i dont like, the sound of it sucks mainly. that and the fact that if you want more than 25 minutes of music on it that doesn't sound like AM radio in a tunnel you have to pay an outragous amount of money for mem for it. I'm not gonna go over everything here that i didn't like about it, that would take way t long. As for long term MP3, i feel that i will be one, but only listening to a song to see if i like it, if i do then i'll but the CD :) other than that i personally really dont like the format that much. I feel like when i come home and want my stero on, it's my stero that's on not a computer playing a bunch of music that sounds worse than FM most of the time. another thing if people complain 1 more time about not being able to listen to a variety of music and wanting a whole jukebox at home i'm gonna kill someone. I contend that it's that these people just dont have enough cd's or do not have a descent cd changer, even a 20 cd changer will give you enough music to last quite a long time, and with sony's 200 cd changer, if you run out of music listening to that, then there is something wrong, these people who have to have all thier cdr's filled with mp3's will never listen to all these, they are just 3l33t little warez dorks. sorry about that last little rant there. Later Matt - To stop getting this list send a message containing just the word "unsubscribe" to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: MD: Will MD Survive?
Man. The way you guys talk about MDs vs. MP3s you'd figure it was a national crisis But hey, who am I to say? I'm about to throw my own 2 cents into the pool... I'm still using my R30 (just recorded a Broadway performance this past Sunday!) but I'm now in the market for a portable MP3 player. Why? Simplicity and portability. Oh, MD is portable allright. But it's time consuming and annoying as hell to make my own compilations each time I want to go on the road. I don't listen to the same songs every day of the year and a compilation I made two months ago isn't gonna cut it for this week. With the mp3 player, it's one device; the ultimate in rewritability and simplicity. No more shuffling MDs for "that one" compilation that I made yesterday or who knows when. On my desktop, I have a winamp playlist that changes content, oh, every week or every other week or so. And the songs included on the list aren't always my "newest acquisitions" either. Heck, sometimes there's nothing new on it either. I still remember the first time I researched MDs on the now "MD Community" page and reading Rick's comment about the future of portable audio and solid state equipments. Little did I suspect that it would come so fast. Sound quality? Yeah, MD sounds great. Heck, I'm still saving up for an R90 and an MD deck later on. But sound quality? For on the road listening? Hell, MP3s are good enough. With the bus/train/car/plane noise that exists when I "listen on the go," I can't worry about reproducing that one particular frequency of that one song with test tones in it. Yes, MP3 ties you to a computer. Most people who collect MP3s are heavy computer users. I currently share an apartment w/ another person and I've got my system in my room, which I spend a lot of time in. So computer... audio... VOILA! I'm not going to spend my money for a stereo set when I can use that money for something else (e.g., save up for that R90 and the MD deck!). At 22:04 01/24/00 , you wrote: enough music to last quite a long time, and with sony's 200 cd changer, if you run out of music listening to that, then there is something wrong, these people who have to have all thier cdr's filled with mp3's will never listen to all these, they are just 3l33t little warez dorks. I've seen people with over 500 CDs. What are they? Old geezers who'll never listen to all their classical music? I have yet to burn any of my MP3s to CDs because it defeats the whole purpose of having everything in one location... Albert - To stop getting this list send a message containing just the word "unsubscribe" to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: MD: Will MD Survive?
Nor does MP3's inferior quality compared to ATRAC. And let's face it, in terms of real-time recording when out on the field, live recordings or whatnot, DAT and MD are still the premier choice over an MP3 player. This is simply because you'll never find a real-time MP3 portable recorder. Only players exist, and will continue to exist without any regard for real-time recordings. Sorry, but I don't agree at all. All technologies begin to "plateau" out at some point in their lifetime and just because there aren't as many new MD units being created has nothing to do with the demise of the format. The reason for the diminishing units on display could simply be because they now sell themselves and require no enticement of any kind. Furthermore, I'm not a big fan of using solid state media as opposed to the magneto-optical media being used now. While both formats are capable of failing, I find that solid state is more susceptible to this, particularly in a portable application where it must withstand the rigours imposed upon it by the user. Furthermore, the MO media is still cheaper than its solid state counterpart. Unless MP3 is made available on media similar to MD, I don't think it really stands a serious chance in terms of reliability and long-term cost. Adios, LarZ --- TAMA - The Strongest Name in Drums --- -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of Shawn R. Lin Sent: Sunday, 23 January 2000 18:24 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: MD: Will MD Survive? I agree. Even if Sony wants to keep MD compatible with older units, they don't HAVE to include built-in MP3 decoders. An invisible high speed MP3 to ATRAC conversion before it saves to the MD would be sufficient and retain compatibility with older hardware. I don't know if MD will carry very far into the future. I don't see many more people using MD than there were a year ago. I don't see any more MD hardware than I did a year ago, to be honest, I see less. Where MD used to stand alone at Best Buy, the displays are reduced to a fraction their original size with the rest of the space dedicated to $400-500 CD Audio recorders. - To stop getting this list send a message containing just the word "unsubscribe" to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: MD: Will MD Survive?
Although I agree that mp3 is inferior, don't forget we are talking about Sony here. I still have my original top loading betamax and with proper maintance, it still beats vhs and super-vhs anyway when put side by side... But, while it is better, it lost the fight. VHS was cheaper, and alot of people who didn't care about quality bought into it (gee, sound familure). Yes, I'm also a Macintosh user and programer. I don't want to drudge that battle up either but they are now recognizing that they have to get off their ass if they want to stay in the fight before they are dead. Sony needs a wake up call. There are a number of applications that MD has, that cannot be done on mp3, and the quality is well beyond. Sony did develop MD2 for their digital video camera, but it has a much better chance of survival, if they expand it to a new breed of MD recorder/player that would be backwards compatible. Make a DataDrive version and an encoder for the computer and you've fixed the speed of download. They're already doing the encoders for their atrac3 memorstick applications so this would not be a difficult transition. The question now comes, Does Sony want this format to survive. I really hope the answer is yes! -Jeffrey -- The day MS makes something that doesn't suck will be the day they start making vacuum cleaners. On 23 Jan 2000, Stainless Steel Rat wrote: Why? I mean, MP3 audio is inferior to MD as far as quality is concerned, even at the highest coding rates. Going from CD to MP3 to MD is just plain stupid if you ask me. Now, a faster means of dumping CD-DA tracks to MD would certainly be desirable. -- - To stop getting this list send a message containing just the word "unsubscribe" to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: MD: Will MD Survive?
=== = NB: Over 50% of this message is QUOTED, please = = be more selective when quoting text = === But this guy's right. While MP sound quality is inferior, it is obvious that there is a great interest in this type of technology - and that sound quality is obviously not a real limiting factor for the mass consumer audience. MD needs to reposition itself as "the hard drive for your MP3s." This type of positioning will keep it relevant as a storage medium -- and position it as COMPLIMENTARY technology to MP3, not competing. I mean, who cares about ATRAC vs. MP3? This should not be a competition. Also, the added advantage, then, is that portable MDs can RECORD, while portable MP3 units currently cannot. I think SONY should be a bit stronger in marketing the MD with all the MP3 hype growing so rapidly. Jon Deutsch http://theopinion.com http://midi.com http://midiservices.com -Original Message- From: Stainless Steel Rat [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Sunday, January 23, 2000 2:12 AM To: MD-L Subject: Re: MD: Will MD Survive? * "Lou Paris Jr." [EMAIL PROTECTED] on Sun, 23 Jan 2000 | I think if Sony wants MD to live in the "Internet Age" they need to make a | unit with USB support that can take a MP3 data stream and do high speed | (4x-12x) data dumps. With some of the new products I have researched on in | the MP3 world I might have made a bad decision going back to MD. Why? I mean, MP3 audio is inferior to MD as far as quality is concerned, even at the highest coding rates. Going from CD to MP3 to MD is just plain stupid if you ask me. Now, a faster means of dumping CD-DA tracks to MD would certainly be desirable. -- Rat [EMAIL PROTECTED]\ Ingredients of Happy Fun Ball include an Minion of Nathan - Nathan says Hi! \ unknown glowing substance which fell to PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ Earth, presumably from outer space. - To stop getting this list send a message containing just the word "unsubscribe" to [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To stop getting this list send a message containing just the word "unsubscribe" to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: MD: Will MD Survive?
* "Magic" [EMAIL PROTECTED] on Sun, 23 Jan 2000 | It's the old Betamax vs VHS argument again. Betamax was undoubtedly the | better format - smaller size tapes with higher quality pictures and sound, | and the tapes were slightly longer! VHS won because it had much better | marketing. Agreed. But MP3 has nothing to do with the fact that Sony has been less than agressive in marketing MD. -- Rat [EMAIL PROTECTED]\ Happy Fun Ball may stick to certain types Minion of Nathan - Nathan says Hi! \ of skin. PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ - To stop getting this list send a message containing just the word "unsubscribe" to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: MD: Will MD Survive?
Some of the new products that are arriving at our local Internet shop are: - a Blaupunkt CD head that takes CD-Audio and MP3's CD-R's. - a CD-shaped player that has a 6GB HD (I'm sure large HD models are on the horizon. - a new stand alone CD-MP3 (CD-R format) recorder with a "Soulmate" 64MB dockable protable [For those that complain that MP3 is a PC only format, this changes everything] To top all that off, Sony seems to be shifting it's publicity towards Stick Media. H. Changes. I like change, but my plead to the industry is to include MD's! Pretty much all of the MP3 products I've seen so far spectacularly miss the point. At one end you've got the 32/64mb solidstate players that just don't hold enough to be worthwhile. I've ripped all my CDs (200+) at 160 or 192k - the people making the players assume that you're going to either rip or re-encode at lower bitrates just to fit them on the player and I can't be bothered with that. At the other end you've got the CD-based devices that hold about 10 albums a piece and have the usual bulk of a cheap-end Discman, and are pretty expensive for an ugly, cheap-looking CD player with no remote. Then you've got the hard-disk based ones that are too heavy and fragile to use portably. They also cost a fortune (several hundred $/UKP/whatever). With both of these (the latter especially), there's the problem of navigating several hundred tracks. They also just lack the sophistication of MD stuff. It's all cheaply-made, non-sexy, klunky stuff that's just selling on the whole "look! it holds MP3s!" idea. Problem is that few (if any? I can only think of Samsung) audio manufacturers are making these devices - they're coming from the PC and electronic companies with very little idea of how to make a stylish device and without the engineering of Sony or Sharp or Panasonic to make them feel robust enough. Just show a Rio owner the remote from a R55/R90 and you'll know what I mean :) The big audio guns are caught up in MD or consumer CDR, and I think it's going to stay that way for a while. I don't think that portable MP3 players will make any inroads until they ditch solid state memory and find a cheap, small, light media to store it on. Something like Iomega's Clik! discs would be perfect, if they held more than 40Mb a piece and didn't cost so much. Because the market's so diverse, I can't see everyone deciding on a common format so that they'll be interchangable. Can't see the RIAA liking a recordable MP3 station either, especially if a connected PC can get back at the tracks on it. The fuss they kicked up over the Rio was bad enough.. -- Simon - To stop getting this list send a message containing just the word "unsubscribe" to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: MD: Will MD Survive?
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I don't know for sure if MD will survive, considering all the other things that are really gaining popularity right now (MP3, etc.), but if it doesn't last, then it just goes to show that the best product doesn't always make it. That's certainly true. I believe Beta was a superior format over VHS as well. I think MP3 is kind of cool too, but I'm not willing to give up the sound quality that MP3 chucks out the window. CD Writers are pretty good also, but they have their faults as well. You can't title tracks on them, and I tend to think that a lot of their popularity has to do with MP3...considering how many minutes of MP3 you can burn onto a CD. You CAN title tracks with a CD-Writer, almost all of them support CD-Text. I don't think most people are copying MP3 directly to CD. Most of my friends are copying MP3's to CDs as regular Audio CDs (74-minutes) for use in their cars. At any rate, even copying decompressed MP3's to audio CD is much faster and more convenient than realtime MP3 to MD. Just now I'm starting to see more MP3 units that CAN read MP3 directly off of a CD-ROM, and most of these units are designed for car use. As far as I'm concerned, minidisc is still the best all around alternative...even if it isn't the most popular. I wholeheartedly agree, even though I'm not sure that it'll ever be mainstream. MP3 devices have pretty much stolen the spotlight from MD. MP3 has pretty much replaced MD as the "new cool format". MP3 to MD integration is the answer, IMO. MP3 is the hot trendy item in audio these days, I think if a super slick solution to copying MP3 to MD existed, then MD would sell better than those solid state MP3 players. I like the idea of a portable MD recorder with a USB port. When plugged into a Mac or PC, all you have to do is drag drop your MP3 files to an MD icon. A few seconds later, the process is complete, the MP3's are all in the MD. Maybe the MD recorder *should* have a built-in MP3 decoder. Right click on the MD icon, and under a "Properties..." menu, there is a checkbox "Audio MD Compatibility Mode". If the checkbox is unchecked, the MP3's are copied directly to MD as MP3's with around 140-minutes of stereo MP3 audio capacity, only playable on that particular recorder. If the checkbox is checked, the MP3's are processed by a high-speed codec that converts the MP3 format to ATRAC and then can save 74-minutes of stereo audio playable on ANY MD player. Double-clicking on the MD icon pulls up all the tracks listed. They can be reordered, renamed, and deleted from the PC. When not docked to the PC, the MD recorder functions as a normal standalone MD recorder. I think if such a device existed, it'd easily sell at street prices of $200. Shawn __ NetZero - Defenders of the Free World Get your FREE Internet Access and Email at http://www.netzero.net/download/index.html - To stop getting this list send a message containing just the word "unsubscribe" to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: MD: Will MD Survive?
I disagree that MP3 is direct competition for minidisc. I think that MP3 is competition for portable CDs. Minidisc is competition for tape cassettes. The marketing of minidiscs needs to stress that these are a recording medium and that with portables you can record anything that you might previously have recorded on tape, but with much higher quality. -- Martin -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Jon Deutsch But this guy's right. While MP sound quality is inferior, it is obvious that there is a great interest in this type of technology - and that sound quality is obviously not a real limiting factor for the mass consumer audience. MD needs to reposition itself as "the hard drive for your MP3s." This type of positioning will keep it relevant as a storage medium -- and position it as COMPLIMENTARY technology to MP3, not competing. I mean, who cares about ATRAC vs. MP3? This should not be a competition. Also, the added advantage, then, is that portable MDs can RECORD, while portable MP3 units currently cannot. I think SONY should be a bit stronger in marketing the MD with all the MP3 hype growing so rapidly. Jon Deutsch - To stop getting this list send a message containing just the word "unsubscribe" to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: MD: Will MD Survive?
Let's not forget that Betamax lost the fight in the consumer market ONLY, while it continued to flourish in the professional domain. The evidence is out there. As long as it survives in a market of some sort, such units will continue to exist and even be available to us, despite the higher professional cost. Adios, LarZ --- TAMA - The Strongest Name in Drums --- -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, 24 January 2000 2:47 To: MD-L Subject:Re: MD: Will MD Survive? Although I agree that mp3 is inferior, don't forget we are talking about Sony here. I still have my original top loading betamax and with proper maintance, it still beats vhs and super-vhs anyway when put side by side... But, while it is better, it lost the fight. VHS was cheaper, and alot of people who didn't care about quality bought into it (gee, sound familure). Yes, I'm also a Macintosh - To stop getting this list send a message containing just the word "unsubscribe" to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: MD: Will MD Survive?
But bear in mind that those dictaphones do not use high quality bitrates and are therefore quicker and easier to encode compared to their 128/160/192 kbps counterparts. So as far as I'm concerned, there is no real-time recording MP3 device out there that will ever match that of MD in sound quality unless they come up with super-duper processors to squeeze into those little packages. Adios, LarZ --- TAMA - The Strongest Name in Drums --- -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of Mark Derricutt Sent: Monday, 24 January 2000 19:21 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject:RE: MD: Will MD Survive? Actually, I can't remember which brand it was, but I was looking at some leaflet's at a mates work and they had MP3 based dictaphone's and recording units (and answer machines) avail. I htink it was MPMan, can't really remember. - To stop getting this list send a message containing just the word "unsubscribe" to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: MD: Will MD Survive?
I've been watching this discussion for the time it's been going on and i have to interject for just a few if i may. I agree that MP3 distribution is affecting MD but in both a good and a bad way. First off if you look at the cost of solid state memory for use in devices such as the rio etc... it's freggin outragous. Not to count out MP3, i listen to them to see if i like the songs, if i do, i buy the cd and copy it to MD :) One place that is doing a great job at promoting the union of MP3 with MD is that of minidisco, i give them a huge amount of credit especially selling the xitel/sharp combo for people who have a lot of mp3's that want a good medium to put them on when they travel. Next MD will have a place IMO for quite some time especially in the lower to middle end editing equipment for "local" bands etc... look at the price difference between a 4 or 8 track MD unit compared to a high end studio piece. it's great for bands to use. the recording on the portable unit's is also amazing, Sony and the rest have done a great job with ATRAC, and for live performances there is only really 2 viable options right now MD and DAT, and IMO DAT is in a lot worse shape than MD is. anyway that's my 2 cents worth. Later Matt - To stop getting this list send a message containing just the word "unsubscribe" to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: MD: Will MD Survive?
Let's consider the two essential aspects of MD as we know it today: ATRAC encoding and the 2.5" MO storage medium. Regarding ATRAC: I claim that ATRAC is doomed. Do most people give that much primacy to sound quality? I think not. The convenience of a medium wins out time and again. Even vinyl LP bigots I know have sold their collections because they don't want to deal with the space and time it takes to store, prep, and play the LPs. Regarding the 2.5" medium: As others have pointed out, MD as a storage medium has real advantages over RAM devices. The next challenger, I think, is hard disk storage. Right now, you can find $100 drives that can hold about 10GB (~$10/GB) and they aren't nearly as rugged as MD media. At some point, though, there will be be something that will be resilient, have the access speed of hard disk, be compact as MD, and cost $1/GB or less. When this happens, the MD medium will be as desirable as 3.5" floppies are today. Taken together, MD/ATRAC won't just go the way of LPs and 12 inch laser discs. It will suffer the utter oblivion of 8-track tapes, because other technologies will be able to sound better and take less space. (But you may still have to pry my cold, dead fingers from my two MD portables and home deck). Romain Kang Siemens Info/Comm Products, San Jose RD [EMAIL PROTECTED] formerly Pyramid Technology Corporation Disclaimer: I represent myself alone, except where otherwise indicated. - To stop getting this list send a message containing just the word "unsubscribe" to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: MD: Will MD Survive?
Umm, sorry but MD is widely used by professionals which is why such models do exist in Sony's Broadcast division. You really need to be out in the field more often to observe this, so I'll excuse you not knowing the full story there 3#-) As for the sound not being *that* good, I can understand that point of view. But then again, after post-production work I perform on my recordings from MD, they do get mistaken for actual studio recordings! I still do a lot of work from DAT (in a multitrack application) for the sake of studio work, but when it comes to a portable situation when working on live recordings, I prefer to work with MD as it is more convenient and robust when out on the job, as opposed to the bulkier DAT sibling. Adios, LarZ --- TAMA - The Strongest Name in Drums --- -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of Magic Sent: Monday, 24 January 2000 13:07 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject:Re: MD: Will MD Survive? MD isn't really used by professionals - it's good, but not *that* good. It may hold it's own in Radio broadcast houses, but unless Sony wise up and do some serious marketing I see MD being threatened quite seriously you'll still be able to get blank MDs for years though, I can still get Betamax video cassette and that format has been all but dead for years (more's the pity IMHO). - To stop getting this list send a message containing just the word "unsubscribe" to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: MD: Will MD Survive?
Jon Deutsch wrote: I think SONY should be a bit stronger in marketing the MD with all the MP3 hype growing so rapidly. I think that Sony is not totally to balm (but mostly) for not marketing MD's right. Sharp and others haven't done much ether, they seem content to sit on the heels of Sony and not do much. If I where Sharp I would be doing a lot more in trying to keep MD's in the minds of consumers. Sharp does need some credit with their MP3 to MD package but have not taken it fare enough. This is my 2ยข James Tisdale - To stop getting this list send a message containing just the word "unsubscribe" to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: MD: Will MD Survive?
If there is to be a format which is to be equally convenient while being superior in sound quality, even if it is more from a technical point of view rather than a subjective/auditory view, then I'll be more than happy to adopt it. But if the shortcomings outweigh that of MD, then we know where that format can go 3#-) That's exactly what this argument has being about. Not purely about convenience, but also that of sound quality. I'm just not prepared to downgrade my sound simply because there is a more "convenient" format out there. That's one sacrifice I certainly don't want to make, and I'm sure plenty of people out there who enjoy their music would feel the same way. I do have a discerning ear, but then again, you don't necessarily have to have one just to appreciate the audible superiority of one format over another. Adios, LarZ --- TAMA - The Strongest Name in Drums --- -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of Romain Kang Sent: Monday, 24 January 2000 13:33 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: MD: Will MD Survive? Taken together, MD/ATRAC won't just go the way of LPs and 12 inch laser discs. It will suffer the utter oblivion of 8-track tapes, because other technologies will be able to sound better and take less space. (But you may still have to pry my cold, dead fingers from my two MD portables and home deck). - To stop getting this list send a message containing just the word "unsubscribe" to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: MD: Will MD Survive?
Martin Schiff wrote: I disagree that MP3 is direct competition for minidisc. I think that MP3 is competition for portable CDs. Minidisc is competition for tape cassettes. The marketing of minidiscs needs to stress that these are a recording medium and that with portables you can record anything that you might previously have recorded on tape, but with much higher quality. Tape cassettes are virtually dead any more. Most of my younger friends don't have a single tape playing device. The market is very narrow if MD is ONLY competing with cassettes. A niche product is not going to gain wide acceptance if it's marketed to replace a product that is already nearing the end of its natural life span. At Hastings and Best Buy, I'm not even sure prerecorded cassettes are available any more. Sony/Sharp and other companies are going to need to make MD look like a more attractive audio storage media than CD-R, solid-state memory, and hard disk storage, as those right now are gaining in popularity. What's boosting their popularity, is MP3. MP3 could help boost MD's popularity too, with better integration than we have now. Sound quality has very little to do with whether a media survives or not. Convenience, price, and availability are the big issues. -- Shawn Lin http://www2.cybercities.com/g/gmwbodycars/ __ NetZero - Defenders of the Free World Get your FREE Internet Access and Email at http://www.netzero.net/download/index.html - To stop getting this list send a message containing just the word "unsubscribe" to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: MD: Will MD Survive?
Sound quality has EVERYTHING to do with it. It's not just about convenience, it's also about appreciating what you listen to, after all, that's what audio is about, isn't it? Why else would we spend our hard earned cash on that great sounding speaker, for example? I couldn't care less if they made something more compact than my R50, if it sounds like crap and lacks functionality, then it's not serving its purpose. It's not serving my EARS. Adios, LarZ --- TAMA - The Strongest Name in Drums --- -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of Shawn R. Lin Sent: Monday, 24 January 2000 16:29 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject:Re: MD: Will MD Survive? Sound quality has very little to do with whether a media survives or not. Convenience, price, and availability are the big issues. - To stop getting this list send a message containing just the word "unsubscribe" to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: MD: Will MD Survive?
* "Lou Paris Jr." [EMAIL PROTECTED] on Sun, 23 Jan 2000 | I think if Sony wants MD to live in the "Internet Age" they need to make a | unit with USB support that can take a MP3 data stream and do high speed | (4x-12x) data dumps. With some of the new products I have researched on in | the MP3 world I might have made a bad decision going back to MD. Why? I mean, MP3 audio is inferior to MD as far as quality is concerned, even at the highest coding rates. Going from CD to MP3 to MD is just plain stupid if you ask me. Now, a faster means of dumping CD-DA tracks to MD would certainly be desirable. -- Rat [EMAIL PROTECTED]\ Ingredients of Happy Fun Ball include an Minion of Nathan - Nathan says Hi! \ unknown glowing substance which fell to PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ Earth, presumably from outer space. - To stop getting this list send a message containing just the word "unsubscribe" to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: MD: Will MD Survive?
"Lou Paris Jr." wrote: I was hoping that when I got my new Sony MXD-D3 that MD would survive the MP3/CD-R/Memory Stick onslaught, but it might be nearing the end of real support with MD. I think if Sony wants MD to live in the "Internet Age" they need to make a unit with USB support that can take a MP3 data stream and do high speed (4x-12x) data dumps. With some of the new products I have researched on in the MP3 world I might have made a bad decision going back to MD. I agree. Even if Sony wants to keep MD compatible with older units, they don't HAVE to include built-in MP3 decoders. An invisible high speed MP3 to ATRAC conversion before it saves to the MD would be sufficient and retain compatibility with older hardware. I don't know if MD will carry very far into the future. I don't see many more people using MD than there were a year ago. I don't see any more MD hardware than I did a year ago, to be honest, I see less. Where MD used to stand alone at Best Buy, the displays are reduced to a fraction their original size with the rest of the space dedicated to $400-500 CD Audio recorders. I was looking for an OEM stereo for my other car, and on every OEM car stereo website, they also sell car MP3 players that have a CD-ROM drive built into them. MP3 is big, and Sony is making a mistake if they sit still with MD. It's obvious that to fit into this trend of MP3's reigning popularity, MD has to have some really cool MP3 and MD integration. The need for a special soundcard with digital audio output, special Toslink cables, and realtime recording just doesn't make MD the best MP3 solution out there anymore. -- Shawn Lin http://www2.cybercities.com/g/gmwbodycars/ __ NetZero - Defenders of the Free World Get your FREE Internet Access and Email at http://www.netzero.net/download/index.html - To stop getting this list send a message containing just the word "unsubscribe" to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
