Re: [MBZ] Insulated garage doors?

2019-10-28 Thread Jim Cathey via Mercedes
> Wood has some R value.

IIRC, wood is what R means.  R10 is equivalent to 10" of wood.

-- Jim


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Re: [MBZ] VW

2019-10-28 Thread Bob Rentfro via Mercedes
On these trips I’ve been making to Houston we’ve been given a Jetta gasser 
(kinda crappy compared to my 2014 Jetta gasser), a Passat (light years better 
than the Jetta) and yesterday, got this trip, they gave us a Dodge Journey. It 
seems decent. 

Bob R

Sent from my iPhone

> On Oct 28, 2019, at 5:18 PM, Kaleb Striplin via Mercedes 
>  wrote:
> 
> Not yet.
> 
> As a side note, apparently the company switched from National to Avis and 
> everyone is complaining about it because Avis cars are turds. 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
>> On Oct 28, 2019, at 5:56 PM, Curley McLain via Mercedes 
>>  wrote:
>> 
>> But, ... Is it STEAMING?
>> 
>> Kaleb Striplin via Mercedes wrote on 10/28/19 4:53 PM:
>>> I currently have a Jetta for a rental. It’s a pile of crap.
>>> 
>>> 
>> 
>> 
>> ___
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Re: [MBZ] Insulated garage doors?

2019-10-28 Thread Curley McLain via Mercedes
the doors pictured at the amana site don't like like roll up doors.  
they look like hinged solid doors.   You could build panels for a rollup 
door with a wood frame, insulation and interior/exterior plywood skin.  
Then buy the tracks and other hardware.  Same with a swing up solid 
door.  (that is how they were done in the 40s and into the 50s, when the 
4 part rollup door became popular.)


As for heat loss, how well the door seals is more impt than how much 
insulation it has.  Wood has some R value.  (Depends on thickness, 
species, moisture content, etc.)


Hot water heating in the concrete floor is da bomb, but probably too 
late for that now.


We had insulated alum rollup doors in a well insulated building with 
thin spray foam inside, then batt insulation, and heated concrete 
floors, and it was very easy to heat.  If the sun shined, no heat 
needed, due to solar gain.   The foam eliminated almost all 
leaks/infiltration, and that is a big deal.


Dimitri Seretakis via Mercedes wrote on 10/28/19 6:50 PM:

I’m at the stage in the construction of my garage (year 6) where I need doors. 
It’s a timber frame barn style so aesthetics matter and as such I’m interested 
in installing wooden doors but insulated wooden doors are prohibitively 
expensive, as in $6000-$8000 per door. I found this company that makes 
affordable traditional wooden doors without insulation. Actually they can add 
1/2 inch on the inside but that’s probably not very effective.

https://www.amanadoor.com/

They say that insulated doors are a waste of money since a garage with a 
concrete slab will only lose 5% of its heat through the doors as most will 
escape through the slab. Any thoughts on this?





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Re: [MBZ] Insulated garage doors?

2019-10-28 Thread Buggered Benzmail via Mercedes
I’d be worried more about them sealing up tightly to prevent air infiltration 

--FT
Sent from iPhone

> On Oct 28, 2019, at 7:50 PM, Dimitri Seretakis via Mercedes 
>  wrote:
> 
> I’m at the stage in the construction of my garage (year 6) where I need 
> doors. It’s a timber frame barn style so aesthetics matter and as such I’m 
> interested in installing wooden doors but insulated wooden doors are 
> prohibitively expensive, as in $6000-$8000 per door. I found this company 
> that makes affordable traditional wooden doors without insulation. Actually 
> they can add 1/2 inch on the inside but that’s probably not very effective.
> 
> https://www.amanadoor.com/
> 
> They say that insulated doors are a waste of money since a garage with a 
> concrete slab will only lose 5% of its heat through the doors as most will 
> escape through the slab. Any thoughts on this?
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
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Re: [MBZ] Insulated garage doors?

2019-10-28 Thread Mitch Haley via Mercedes


> On October 28, 2019 at 7:50 PM Dimitri Seretakis via Mercedes 
>  wrote:

> They say that insulated doors are a waste of money since a garage with a 
> concrete slab will only lose 5% of its heat through the doors as most will 
> escape through the slab. Any thoughts on this?

Heat loss straight down doesn't count, it's more like thermal mass than a loss 
vector.
Heat loss to the sides is real, unless you built a rat wall ans insulated it 
with foamboard wheen you bacjfilled.

Mitch.

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[MBZ] Insulated garage doors?

2019-10-28 Thread Dimitri Seretakis via Mercedes
I’m at the stage in the construction of my garage (year 6) where I need doors. 
It’s a timber frame barn style so aesthetics matter and as such I’m interested 
in installing wooden doors but insulated wooden doors are prohibitively 
expensive, as in $6000-$8000 per door. I found this company that makes 
affordable traditional wooden doors without insulation. Actually they can add 
1/2 inch on the inside but that’s probably not very effective.

https://www.amanadoor.com/

They say that insulated doors are a waste of money since a garage with a 
concrete slab will only lose 5% of its heat through the doors as most will 
escape through the slab. Any thoughts on this?



Sent from my iPhone
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Re: [MBZ] Well that was easy, mostly

2019-10-28 Thread Curley McLain via Mercedes
On the 124, I bought new ones from Q.  They were not expensive, and I 
never did find a way to clear the snot inside them.     vinegar soak is  
a good way.  Hope it works!   For me it was easier/cheaper just to put 
in new ones.


Floyd Thursby via Mercedes wrote on 10/28/19 6:36 PM:
did that, the stuff seems to be all goobered up inside the housing 
where the main line goes in then it branches out somehow to the little 
squirt holes.  It doesn't look like it will come apart; hence, the 
soaking.


-_FT



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Re: [MBZ] Well that was easy, mostly

2019-10-28 Thread Floyd Thursby via Mercedes
did that, the stuff seems to be all goobered up inside the housing where 
the main line goes in then it branches out somehow to the little squirt 
holes.  It doesn't look like it will come apart; hence, the soaking.


-_FT

On 10/28/19 7:28 PM, Curley McLain via Mercedes wrote:

A pin? or small dia SS (tempered) wire

Floyd Thursby via Mercedes wrote on 10/28/19 6:01 PM:
My windshield squirters weren't on the $600E320 so I pulled of the 
connector and the motor was getting voltage, put it back and lo the 
motor began working but nothing coming out of the nozzles. Tried 
cleaning the little holes, still nothing.  Took of the squirter 
assembly (it just snaps into the hose and the hood, easy removal) and 
it was completely goobered up inside, it doesn't come apart near as I 
tell so I have it soaking in some vinegar solution to see if that 
loosens up the dried up fluid in there.  Not sure what else might go 
at it. If that doesn't work I'll get a syringe with something else 
and try I guess. Any ideas?





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--
--FT


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Re: [MBZ] Well that was easy, mostly

2019-10-28 Thread Curley McLain via Mercedes

A pin? or small dia SS (tempered) wire

Floyd Thursby via Mercedes wrote on 10/28/19 6:01 PM:
My windshield squirters weren't on the $600E320 so I pulled of the 
connector and the motor was getting voltage, put it back and lo the 
motor began working but nothing coming out of the nozzles. Tried 
cleaning the little holes, still nothing.  Took of the squirter 
assembly (it just snaps into the hose and the hood, easy removal) and 
it was completely goobered up inside, it doesn't come apart near as I 
tell so I have it soaking in some vinegar solution to see if that 
loosens up the dried up fluid in there.  Not sure what else might go 
at it. If that doesn't work I'll get a syringe with something else and 
try I guess. Any ideas?





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Re: [MBZ] VW

2019-10-28 Thread Curley McLain via Mercedes
They useta all have the same cars pretty much,  Either GM or FOMOCO, 
except in Hawaii, where a lot of terdcels and corrollas were used by all 
of em.


Kaleb Striplin via Mercedes wrote on 10/28/19 5:18 PM:

Not yet.

As a side note, apparently the company switched from National to Avis and 
everyone is complaining about it because Avis cars are turds.





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[MBZ] Well that was easy, mostly

2019-10-28 Thread Floyd Thursby via Mercedes
My windshield squirters weren't on the $600E320 so I pulled of the 
connector and the motor was getting voltage, put it back and lo the 
motor began working but nothing coming out of the nozzles. Tried 
cleaning the little holes, still nothing.  Took of the squirter assembly 
(it just snaps into the hose and the hood, easy removal) and it was 
completely goobered up inside, it doesn't come apart near as I tell so I 
have it soaking in some vinegar solution to see if that loosens up the 
dried up fluid in there.  Not sure what else might go at it. If that 
doesn't work I'll get a syringe with something else and try I guess.  
Any ideas?


--
--FT


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Re: [MBZ] OT: Daimler switching out of developing natural gas powered trucks

2019-10-28 Thread Meade Dillon via Mercedes
I'm convinced this is a head-feint to throw off the competition, maybe
they've got a skunk-works going somewhere that will whipsaw the legs right
out from under most of the rest of the world's auto makers.
-
Max
Charleston SC


On Mon, Oct 28, 2019 at 4:40 PM Curley McLain via Mercedes <
mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:

> What a bunch of misguided, misplaced effort.
>
> Andrew Strasfogel via Mercedes wrote on 10/28/19 1:17 PM:
> > AUTOS
> > Daimler drops gas-powered truck to build CO2-neutral fleet
> > Published: Monday, October 28, 2019
> >
> > Daimler AG is quitting development of natural gas-powered trucks to pool
> > resources for electric and hydrogen rigs that can advance its goal of
> > offering a CO2-neutral fleet in its main markets by 2039.
> >
> > The world's biggest truckmaker is already working on battery-electric
> > versions of a range of commercial vehicles, including the heavy-duty
> > Mercedes-Benz eActros that's set to start production in 2022. Tesla Inc.
> > last week said it's planning to start output of its electric semi in
> > limited numbers next year.
> >
> > "Natural gas engines are fossil fuel-based and therefore a transition
> > technology on the road to a CO2-neutral transport," Daimler truck chief
> > Martin Daum said Friday in a prepared speech at a conference in Berlin.
> It
> > makes little sense to "spend a lot of money on something that does not
> have
> > a long-term future, when we can use that money much better elsewhere."
> >
> > Hydrogen-powered vehicles should be available by the end of the next
> > decade, Daimler said.
> >
> > The truck industry, just like automakers, is under pressure to clean up
> its
> > vehicles, leaving manufacturers struggling with high costs. Still,
> there's
> > little choice but to meet increasingly stringent regulation and a global
> > push to address climate change.
> >
> > "Especially when it comes to climate change, we've seen that things can't
> > continue like this, and we as the auto industry are part of society and
> > because of that have the obligation to do something about it," Porsche
> > Chief Executive Officer Oliver Blume said Friday at a conference in
> > Stuttgart.
> >
> > For truckmakers, paying for the transformation is getting harder with a
> > downturn in the truck cycle taking hold as the global economy softens.
> > That's offsetting a boom in transportation demand fueled by online
> shopping.
> >
> > Daimler's sprawling commercial vehicle operations, including the
> > Freightliner nameplate in North America, Mercedes-Benz trucks in Europe
> and
> > Fuso in Asia, face long-standing criticism for trailing profitability at
> > competitors like Volvo Group. Daimler this year turned the division into
> a
> > largely independent legal entity to make it more agile and nimble, as
> part
> > of a broader corporate overhaul.
> >
> > Daum has intensified efforts to cut costs to channel funds toward new
> > technologies. The unit started series production of an electric city bus
> > last year and its Fuso brand just showed a fuel-cell prototype vehicle at
> > the Tokyo Motor Show in Japan.
> >
> > "Truly CO2-neutral transport only works with battery-electric or
> > hydrogen-based drive," Daum said. "This can only be achieved if
> competitive
> > conditions for CO2-neutral transport are created for our customers in
> terms
> > of costs and infrastructure." *— Christoph Rauwald and Oliver Sachgau,
> > Bloomberg*
> > ___
> > http://www.okiebenz.com
> >
> > To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/
> >
> > To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
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Re: [MBZ] VW

2019-10-28 Thread Meade Dillon via Mercedes
But they are cheaper turds, with more customer-less service!

My last two rentals (both one-way trips) were Avis, and the service did not
impress but the price was right.  VW Passat (with the funny parking brake
and terrible dash-light adjustment) and a Nissan Altima which was soulless
but the ergonomics were much better (either familiar user interface or
intuitive enough to get the basics done).  The Nissan had, I think, a CVT;
when I would floor the accelerator, RPM would climb to about 4k and then
vary up and down between 4 and 4.5k as it made noises like it was shifting
but the acceleration feel was continuous.

-
Max
Charleston SC


On Mon, Oct 28, 2019 at 6:18 PM Kaleb Striplin via Mercedes <
mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:

> Not yet.
>
> As a side note, apparently the company switched from National to Avis and
> everyone is complaining about it because Avis cars are turds.
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> > On Oct 28, 2019, at 5:56 PM, Curley McLain via Mercedes <
> mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:
> >
> > But, ... Is it STEAMING?
> >
> > Kaleb Striplin via Mercedes wrote on 10/28/19 4:53 PM:
> >> I currently have a Jetta for a rental. It’s a pile of crap.
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> > ___
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> >
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> >
> > To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
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> >
>
>
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Re: [MBZ] VW

2019-10-28 Thread Kaleb Striplin via Mercedes
Not yet.

As a side note, apparently the company switched from National to Avis and 
everyone is complaining about it because Avis cars are turds. 

Sent from my iPhone

> On Oct 28, 2019, at 5:56 PM, Curley McLain via Mercedes 
>  wrote:
> 
> But, ... Is it STEAMING?
> 
> Kaleb Striplin via Mercedes wrote on 10/28/19 4:53 PM:
>> I currently have a Jetta for a rental. It’s a pile of crap.
>> 
>> 
> 
> 
> ___
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> 


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Re: [MBZ] VW

2019-10-28 Thread Curley McLain via Mercedes

But, ... Is it STEAMING?

Kaleb Striplin via Mercedes wrote on 10/28/19 4:53 PM:

I currently have a Jetta for a rental. It’s a pile of crap.





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[MBZ] VW

2019-10-28 Thread Kaleb Striplin via Mercedes
I currently have a Jetta for a rental. It’s a pile of crap. 

Sent from my iPhone

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Re: [MBZ] OT: Daimler switching out of developing natural gas powered trucks

2019-10-28 Thread Randy Bennell via Mercedes
Maybe they listened to a Scandinavian child who always looks like she is 
in pain because the world is going to end before she can grow up.


Randy

On 28/10/2019 4:14 PM, Andrew Strasfogel via Mercedes wrote:

If only they'd listen to a world-class expert like you. They might even
become profitable.

On Mon, Oct 28, 2019, 4:40 PM Curley McLain via Mercedes <
mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:


What a bunch of misguided, misplaced effort.




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Re: [MBZ] OT: Daimler switching out of developing natural gas powered trucks

2019-10-28 Thread Andrew Strasfogel via Mercedes
If only they'd listen to a world-class expert like you. They might even
become profitable.

On Mon, Oct 28, 2019, 4:40 PM Curley McLain via Mercedes <
mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:

> What a bunch of misguided, misplaced effort.
>
> Andrew Strasfogel via Mercedes wrote on 10/28/19 1:17 PM:
> > AUTOS
> > Daimler drops gas-powered truck to build CO2-neutral fleet
> > Published: Monday, October 28, 2019
> >
> > Daimler AG is quitting development of natural gas-powered trucks to pool
> > resources for electric and hydrogen rigs that can advance its goal of
> > offering a CO2-neutral fleet in its main markets by 2039.
> >
> > The world's biggest truckmaker is already working on battery-electric
> > versions of a range of commercial vehicles, including the heavy-duty
> > Mercedes-Benz eActros that's set to start production in 2022. Tesla Inc.
> > last week said it's planning to start output of its electric semi in
> > limited numbers next year.
> >
> > "Natural gas engines are fossil fuel-based and therefore a transition
> > technology on the road to a CO2-neutral transport," Daimler truck chief
> > Martin Daum said Friday in a prepared speech at a conference in Berlin.
> It
> > makes little sense to "spend a lot of money on something that does not
> have
> > a long-term future, when we can use that money much better elsewhere."
> >
> > Hydrogen-powered vehicles should be available by the end of the next
> > decade, Daimler said.
> >
> > The truck industry, just like automakers, is under pressure to clean up
> its
> > vehicles, leaving manufacturers struggling with high costs. Still,
> there's
> > little choice but to meet increasingly stringent regulation and a global
> > push to address climate change.
> >
> > "Especially when it comes to climate change, we've seen that things can't
> > continue like this, and we as the auto industry are part of society and
> > because of that have the obligation to do something about it," Porsche
> > Chief Executive Officer Oliver Blume said Friday at a conference in
> > Stuttgart.
> >
> > For truckmakers, paying for the transformation is getting harder with a
> > downturn in the truck cycle taking hold as the global economy softens.
> > That's offsetting a boom in transportation demand fueled by online
> shopping.
> >
> > Daimler's sprawling commercial vehicle operations, including the
> > Freightliner nameplate in North America, Mercedes-Benz trucks in Europe
> and
> > Fuso in Asia, face long-standing criticism for trailing profitability at
> > competitors like Volvo Group. Daimler this year turned the division into
> a
> > largely independent legal entity to make it more agile and nimble, as
> part
> > of a broader corporate overhaul.
> >
> > Daum has intensified efforts to cut costs to channel funds toward new
> > technologies. The unit started series production of an electric city bus
> > last year and its Fuso brand just showed a fuel-cell prototype vehicle at
> > the Tokyo Motor Show in Japan.
> >
> > "Truly CO2-neutral transport only works with battery-electric or
> > hydrogen-based drive," Daum said. "This can only be achieved if
> competitive
> > conditions for CO2-neutral transport are created for our customers in
> terms
> > of costs and infrastructure." *— Christoph Rauwald and Oliver Sachgau,
> > Bloomberg*
> > ___
> > http://www.okiebenz.com
> >
> > To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/
> >
> > To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
> > http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
> >
>
>
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Re: [MBZ] OT: Daimler switching out of developing natural gas powered trucks

2019-10-28 Thread Curley McLain via Mercedes

What a bunch of misguided, misplaced effort.

Andrew Strasfogel via Mercedes wrote on 10/28/19 1:17 PM:

AUTOS
Daimler drops gas-powered truck to build CO2-neutral fleet
Published: Monday, October 28, 2019

Daimler AG is quitting development of natural gas-powered trucks to pool
resources for electric and hydrogen rigs that can advance its goal of
offering a CO2-neutral fleet in its main markets by 2039.

The world's biggest truckmaker is already working on battery-electric
versions of a range of commercial vehicles, including the heavy-duty
Mercedes-Benz eActros that's set to start production in 2022. Tesla Inc.
last week said it's planning to start output of its electric semi in
limited numbers next year.

"Natural gas engines are fossil fuel-based and therefore a transition
technology on the road to a CO2-neutral transport," Daimler truck chief
Martin Daum said Friday in a prepared speech at a conference in Berlin. It
makes little sense to "spend a lot of money on something that does not have
a long-term future, when we can use that money much better elsewhere."

Hydrogen-powered vehicles should be available by the end of the next
decade, Daimler said.

The truck industry, just like automakers, is under pressure to clean up its
vehicles, leaving manufacturers struggling with high costs. Still, there's
little choice but to meet increasingly stringent regulation and a global
push to address climate change.

"Especially when it comes to climate change, we've seen that things can't
continue like this, and we as the auto industry are part of society and
because of that have the obligation to do something about it," Porsche
Chief Executive Officer Oliver Blume said Friday at a conference in
Stuttgart.

For truckmakers, paying for the transformation is getting harder with a
downturn in the truck cycle taking hold as the global economy softens.
That's offsetting a boom in transportation demand fueled by online shopping.

Daimler's sprawling commercial vehicle operations, including the
Freightliner nameplate in North America, Mercedes-Benz trucks in Europe and
Fuso in Asia, face long-standing criticism for trailing profitability at
competitors like Volvo Group. Daimler this year turned the division into a
largely independent legal entity to make it more agile and nimble, as part
of a broader corporate overhaul.

Daum has intensified efforts to cut costs to channel funds toward new
technologies. The unit started series production of an electric city bus
last year and its Fuso brand just showed a fuel-cell prototype vehicle at
the Tokyo Motor Show in Japan.

"Truly CO2-neutral transport only works with battery-electric or
hydrogen-based drive," Daum said. "This can only be achieved if competitive
conditions for CO2-neutral transport are created for our customers in terms
of costs and infrastructure." *— Christoph Rauwald and Oliver Sachgau,
Bloomberg*
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Re: [MBZ] All electric cars

2019-10-28 Thread Curley McLain via Mercedes
I got over 1500 mile range with the Aux tanks in the 200D in 1972.   
1000 miles to DC, then at least 500 driving around town.  I had hoped to 
get there and back when I started out, but way more driving around the 
metro area than I had anticipated (friend's wedding) so I left 10-15 gal 
in the aux and put fuel in the main tank somewhere around mary's land.  
I remember I didn't get 2000 miles out of the setup like I had hoped.  I 
think it ended up around 1750-1800 miles, had I run all tanks nearly dry.


I did not have any switchover valve.  All I could do was run off the 
main tank, then when it got low, turn on the other tank until the gauge 
showed full again.  Gravity feed, no transfer pump.


On the main I could regularly get 500 miles on a tank.

Jim Cathey via Mercedes wrote on 10/28/19 12:03 PM:

What you really needed, was the auxiliary tank that mounted in the trunk!

That 240D slug we had, with the aux tank in the trunk, easily had a 1000 mile
range.  Clay even saw it once, on the trip where we verified the 1000 mile
range!

-- Jim






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Re: [MBZ] GM Trying to Shame It's Employees

2019-10-28 Thread Curley McLain via Mercedes

Any forensic auditors on the list?


Randy Bennell via Mercedes wrote on 10/28/19 10:45 AM:


You would have to very carefully examine the numbers to understand if 
this is actually true or if they have cooked the books in some manner 
to make it look better than it is.


Randy




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Re: [MBZ] All electric cars

2019-10-28 Thread Randy Bennell via Mercedes

". . . after Andrew had devastated South Florida . . ."

Gee, Andrew never mentioned that he was visiting Florida.

Randy


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Re: [MBZ] Mrs Poos needs a SLK55

2019-10-28 Thread Dan--- via Mercedes
Don’t know, don’t care. The guy who is doing it does epoxy floors for labs and 
chemical companies and comes highly recommended. I’m sure it won’t be cheap, 
but I want it done and done right.

-D

> On Oct 28, 2019, at 3:18 PM, Craig via Mercedes  wrote:
> 
> On Mon, 28 Oct 2019 14:58:30 -0400 Dan--- via Mercedes
>  wrote:
> 
>> Professional install, concrete driveway.
> 
> Good idea for a professional install -- someone else breathes the fumes
> and is responsible for a successful result.
> 
> How much are they charging?
> 
> And you know the saying, "Concrete driveways are best!"
> 
> 
> Craig
> 
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Re: [MBZ] Mrs Poos needs a SLK55

2019-10-28 Thread Craig via Mercedes
On Mon, 28 Oct 2019 14:58:30 -0400 Dan--- via Mercedes
 wrote:

> Professional install, concrete driveway.

Good idea for a professional install -- someone else breathes the fumes
and is responsible for a successful result.

How much are they charging?

And you know the saying, "Concrete driveways are best!"


Craig

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Re: [MBZ] Mrs Poos needs a SLK55

2019-10-28 Thread Dan--- via Mercedes
Professional install, concrete driveway.

-D

> On Oct 28, 2019, at 2:43 PM, Craig via Mercedes  wrote:
> 
> On Mon, 28 Oct 2019 14:40:15 -0400 Dan--- via Mercedes
>  wrote:
> 
>> Three car garage, three car width driveway that’s about 40 feet long -
>> the full width/length.
>> 
>> First order of business - epoxy the garage floor. I’ve already got it
>> lined up.
> 
> Are you putting down the epoxy, or having someone else do it?
> 
> What kind of driveway does it have? Concrete? Asphalt? MacAdam?  ?
> 
> 
> Craig
> 
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Re: [MBZ] Mrs Poos needs a SLK55

2019-10-28 Thread Craig via Mercedes
On Mon, 28 Oct 2019 14:40:15 -0400 Dan--- via Mercedes
 wrote:

> Three car garage, three car width driveway that’s about 40 feet long -
> the full width/length.
> 
> First order of business - epoxy the garage floor. I’ve already got it
> lined up.

Are you putting down the epoxy, or having someone else do it?

What kind of driveway does it have? Concrete? Asphalt? MacAdam?  ?


Craig

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Re: [MBZ] All electric cars

2019-10-28 Thread Andrew Strasfogel via Mercedes
Speaking of mileage, since mounting new tires, replacing the front ball
joints and R upper control arm, and getting an alignment my fuel economy
has improved approximately 2 mpg, or around 10 percent.

On Mon, Oct 28, 2019 at 2:19 PM Curt Raymond via Mercedes <
mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:

> My Jetta only needs an extra 6 gallons to get 1000 mile range. I've done
> 700 miles on a tank. Keep top speed to 65 mph and it sips fuel. There are
> folks that report 800 mile tanks.
> Curt
>
> Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android
>
>   On Mon, Oct 28, 2019 at 1:04 PM, Jim Cathey via Mercedes<
> mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:   > What you really needed, was the
> auxiliary tank that mounted in the trunk!
>
> That 240D slug we had, with the aux tank in the trunk, easily had a 1000
> mile
> range.  Clay even saw it once, on the trip where we verified the 1000 mile
> range!
>
> -- Jim
>
>
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[MBZ] OT Audi TDI

2019-10-28 Thread Allan Streib via Mercedes
There is an Audi A3 TDI (2012 year, 94K miles) for sale here.

Any experiences/warnings?

Clean and "no warning lights on" as if that's special but the
address is one on the strip of low tier used car dealers in town.

Might stop by today -- I'll be in the area.

Allan

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Re: [MBZ] Mrs Poos needs a SLK55

2019-10-28 Thread Dan--- via Mercedes
Three car garage, three car width driveway that’s about 40 feet long - the full 
width/length.

First order of business - epoxy the garage floor. I’ve already got it lined up.

-D

> On Oct 28, 2019, at 2:10 PM, archer75--- via Mercedes  
> wrote:
> 
> Will you have more garage space and/or parking space?
> Gerry
> 
> On Mon, 28 Oct 2019 12:59:29 -0400
> Dan Penoff via Mercedes  wrote:
> 
>> Mrs. Poos’ car funds are currently encumbered due to the impending second 
>> home purchase.
>> 
>> We’re working on a record for loan processing - we may close in less than 20 
>> days. Nice.
>> 
>> -D
>> 
>>> On Oct 28, 2019, at 12:51 PM, Mitch Haley via Mercedes 
>>>  wrote:
>>> 
>>> Needs Martha-ing
>>> 
>>> http://mb-teilekatalog.info/view_DatacardAction.php?lang=E=wdbwk73f37f157833
>>> 
>>> https://www.copart.com/lot/45786189
>>> 
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>> 
>> 
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> 
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Re: [MBZ] All electric cars

2019-10-28 Thread Curt Raymond via Mercedes
My Jetta only needs an extra 6 gallons to get 1000 mile range. I've done 700 
miles on a tank. Keep top speed to 65 mph and it sips fuel. There are folks 
that report 800 mile tanks.
Curt

Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android 
 
  On Mon, Oct 28, 2019 at 1:04 PM, Jim Cathey via 
Mercedes wrote:   > What you really needed, was the 
auxiliary tank that mounted in the trunk!

That 240D slug we had, with the aux tank in the trunk, easily had a 1000 mile
range.  Clay even saw it once, on the trip where we verified the 1000 mile
range!

-- Jim


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[MBZ] OT: Daimler switching out of developing natural gas powered trucks

2019-10-28 Thread Andrew Strasfogel via Mercedes
AUTOS
Daimler drops gas-powered truck to build CO2-neutral fleet
Published: Monday, October 28, 2019

Daimler AG is quitting development of natural gas-powered trucks to pool
resources for electric and hydrogen rigs that can advance its goal of
offering a CO2-neutral fleet in its main markets by 2039.

The world's biggest truckmaker is already working on battery-electric
versions of a range of commercial vehicles, including the heavy-duty
Mercedes-Benz eActros that's set to start production in 2022. Tesla Inc.
last week said it's planning to start output of its electric semi in
limited numbers next year.

"Natural gas engines are fossil fuel-based and therefore a transition
technology on the road to a CO2-neutral transport," Daimler truck chief
Martin Daum said Friday in a prepared speech at a conference in Berlin. It
makes little sense to "spend a lot of money on something that does not have
a long-term future, when we can use that money much better elsewhere."

Hydrogen-powered vehicles should be available by the end of the next
decade, Daimler said.

The truck industry, just like automakers, is under pressure to clean up its
vehicles, leaving manufacturers struggling with high costs. Still, there's
little choice but to meet increasingly stringent regulation and a global
push to address climate change.

"Especially when it comes to climate change, we've seen that things can't
continue like this, and we as the auto industry are part of society and
because of that have the obligation to do something about it," Porsche
Chief Executive Officer Oliver Blume said Friday at a conference in
Stuttgart.

For truckmakers, paying for the transformation is getting harder with a
downturn in the truck cycle taking hold as the global economy softens.
That's offsetting a boom in transportation demand fueled by online shopping.

Daimler's sprawling commercial vehicle operations, including the
Freightliner nameplate in North America, Mercedes-Benz trucks in Europe and
Fuso in Asia, face long-standing criticism for trailing profitability at
competitors like Volvo Group. Daimler this year turned the division into a
largely independent legal entity to make it more agile and nimble, as part
of a broader corporate overhaul.

Daum has intensified efforts to cut costs to channel funds toward new
technologies. The unit started series production of an electric city bus
last year and its Fuso brand just showed a fuel-cell prototype vehicle at
the Tokyo Motor Show in Japan.

"Truly CO2-neutral transport only works with battery-electric or
hydrogen-based drive," Daum said. "This can only be achieved if competitive
conditions for CO2-neutral transport are created for our customers in terms
of costs and infrastructure." *— Christoph Rauwald and Oliver Sachgau,
Bloomberg*
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Re: [MBZ] GM Trying to Shame It's Employees

2019-10-28 Thread Andrew Strasfogel via Mercedes
Must be that doggone Deep State again, cooking the books!

On Mon, Oct 28, 2019 at 11:46 AM Randy Bennell via Mercedes <
mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:

> On 27/10/2019 2:37 PM, Andrew Strasfogel via Mercedes wrote:
> > Tesla just made a quarterly profit -shocking everyone.  Stock soared.
> >
>
> You would have to very carefully examine the numbers to understand if
> this is actually true or if they have cooked the books in some manner to
> make it look better than it is.
>
> Randy
>
>
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Re: [MBZ] Mrs Poos needs a SLK55

2019-10-28 Thread archer75--- via Mercedes
Will you have more garage space and/or parking space?
Gerry

On Mon, 28 Oct 2019 12:59:29 -0400
Dan Penoff via Mercedes  wrote:

> Mrs. Poos’ car funds are currently encumbered due to the impending second 
> home purchase.
> 
> We’re working on a record for loan processing - we may close in less than 20 
> days. Nice.
> 
> -D
> 
> > On Oct 28, 2019, at 12:51 PM, Mitch Haley via Mercedes 
> >  wrote:
> > 
> > Needs Martha-ing
> > 
> > http://mb-teilekatalog.info/view_DatacardAction.php?lang=E=wdbwk73f37f157833
> > 
> > https://www.copart.com/lot/45786189
> > 
> > ___
> > http://www.okiebenz.com
> > 
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> > 
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Re: [MBZ] w124 rear springs

2019-10-28 Thread Craig via Mercedes
On Mon, 28 Oct 2019 07:30:19 -0400 Meade Dillon via Mercedes
 wrote:

> Hmmm, I thought the torque of the control arm nuts and bolts was
> supposed to be done with the car resting on all four wheels, in "ready
> to drive" condition (nothing loaded but full fuel tank and all fluids
> topped up, spare tire and tools in place).

Yes, that is what I have heard, too.


Craig

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Re: [MBZ] OT: lutefisk

2019-10-28 Thread Andrew Strasfogel via Mercedes
Is lefse just plain old potatoes? How is it prepared?

On Mon, Oct 28, 2019 at 7:27 AM Meade Dillon via Mercedes <
mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:

> Hah!  Lefse and lutefisk, what memories!  My Italian-heritage bride would
> be completely befuddled.  I've tried to describe it several times, but no
> words can prepare one for the lutefisk experience.
>
> He doesn't explain lefse very well, I would describe it as a soft flat
> bread made from potatoes, the Norwegian version of a tortilla.  Very very
> good with butter and the sprinkled with sugar and cinnamon, rolled up.
> -
> Max
> Charleston SC
>
>
> On Sun, Oct 27, 2019 at 10:42 PM Curley McLain via Mercedes <
> mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:
>
> >  From Jerry Apps, a Wisconsin writer. Don't miss the quote!  It is
> > my new favorite!
> >
> > "Little did I know when I married into a Norwegian family that I was
> > expected to enjoy the Norwegian delicacy, lutefisk. For 58 years I have
> > successfully avoided lutefisk (dried codfish that is soaked in a lye
> > solution for several days to rehydrate it). All of this changed a few
> > Saturdays ago when our friend, Patty Putnam invited my brother-law,
> > Clarence Olson, my wife and me to attend the 72nd annual lutefisk dinner
> > at the Vermont Lutheran Church located near Black Earth.
> >
> > I was amazed to learn that over 900 people had signed up for this annual
> > event. According to Pastor Barry Hoerz, people come from near and
> > far—this year from Maryland, Arizona, and Missouri besides from all over
> > Wisconsin. About every 45 minutes a new batch of people were served—from
> > about eleven a.m. to six p.m. The meal was served family-style.
> >
> > They served 600 pounds of lutefisk, 620 pounds of boiled potatoes, green
> > beans, cranberry relish, and lefse. For the unknowing, lefse is made
> > from potatoes. The Vermont church cooks made 1,400, 12-inch rounds of
> > lefse, using an additional 350 pounds of potatoes. Not to forget the
> > Norwegian cookies of many kinds—just the best.
> > To prepare the lutefisk, it is rinsed with cold water to remove the lye,
> > then boiled or baked. It is served with lots of butter.
> >
> > I ate some lutefisk, but, with my German upbringing, I could not find
> > anything especially notable about its taste. I found this old
> > Norwegian-American saying: “About half the Norwegians who immigrated to
> > America came to escape lutefisk. The other half came to spread the
> > gospel of lutefisk’s wonderfulness.” That says it all."
> >
> > BTW, all Jerry's books are good!
> >
> > I was able in 1987, to attend Swedesburg Lutheran Church Smorgasbord.  I
> > call it "the Swede feed."Same kinda deal Jerry tells this story
> > about.  Lefse, lutefisk, oostakaka, apfelkaka, lingonberries,
> > lingonberry, this and lingonberry that.   All good stuff, except the
> > lutefisk!   People came from probably 15 or 20 states.  You had to be
> > related to someone there to get a ticket, so we were real outsiders,
> > being German-Irish and German-Polish.  Our employee who grew up in that
> > church and still goes to that church got us a couple tickets.
> > (Blackmarket, because we are NOT swedish, or even Scandenavian!)They
> > had one dish they claim, but I claim is German:  Pickled herring!  THAT
> > was good too!
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Re: [MBZ] All electric cars

2019-10-28 Thread Mitch Haley via Mercedes
I know somebody who had a 1000 mile tank on his normal commute, driving slowly 
and carefully. 
15.7 gallon tank that he kept restarting the pump until he had a bit over 18 
gallons of diesel in the tank and filler neck. Got to the gas station at 998 
miles, kept going a bit and drove back so he could say he did 1000. Took 17.8 
to neck fill it again. 
Mitch.

> On October 28, 2019 at 1:03 PM Jim Cathey via Mercedes 
>  wrote:
> That 240D slug we had, with the aux tank in the trunk, easily had a 1000 mile
> range.  Clay even saw it once, on the trip where we verified the 1000 mile
> range!___
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Re: [MBZ] Mrs Poos needs a SLK55

2019-10-28 Thread Mitch Haley via Mercedes
Looks like the listing went up on the 17th and the sale date hasn't been set 
yet.
Or does she have to wait for the old house to sell?
I'm assuming slk 55 is faster than 32...

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Re: [MBZ] All electric cars

2019-10-28 Thread Jim Cathey via Mercedes
> What you really needed, was the auxiliary tank that mounted in the trunk!

That 240D slug we had, with the aux tank in the trunk, easily had a 1000 mile
range.  Clay even saw it once, on the trip where we verified the 1000 mile
range!

-- Jim


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Re: [MBZ] Mrs Poos needs a SLK55

2019-10-28 Thread Dan Penoff via Mercedes
Mrs. Poos’ car funds are currently encumbered due to the impending second home 
purchase.

We’re working on a record for loan processing - we may close in less than 20 
days. Nice.

-D

> On Oct 28, 2019, at 12:51 PM, Mitch Haley via Mercedes 
>  wrote:
> 
> Needs Martha-ing
> 
> http://mb-teilekatalog.info/view_DatacardAction.php?lang=E=wdbwk73f37f157833
> 
> https://www.copart.com/lot/45786189
> 
> ___
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> 


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[MBZ] Mrs Poos needs a SLK55

2019-10-28 Thread Mitch Haley via Mercedes
Needs Martha-ing

http://mb-teilekatalog.info/view_DatacardAction.php?lang=E=wdbwk73f37f157833

https://www.copart.com/lot/45786189

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Re: [MBZ] All electric cars

2019-10-28 Thread Randy Bennell via Mercedes

On 27/10/2019 9:56 PM, Clay Monroe via Mercedes wrote:

The joy of having old diesels was being able to store three jerry cans of #2 at 
the ready for when social justice evangelicals decided to topple the government 
in the Soviet Socialist Republic of Seattle.  Never did get more than 
inconvenienced by marchers or disruptors on local streets and freeways.  It did 
come in handy for those days I was running too late to head the wrong direction 
to fuel up because I had not bothered to look at the gauges.  It would have 
been able to get me near 300 miles away from incoming north korean nukes 
without stopping on top of what ever fuel I had in the tank

clay



What you really needed, was the auxiliary tank that mounted in the trunk!

Randy


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Re: [MBZ] GM Trying to Shame It's Employees

2019-10-28 Thread Randy Bennell via Mercedes

On 27/10/2019 2:37 PM, Andrew Strasfogel via Mercedes wrote:

Tesla just made a quarterly profit -shocking everyone.  Stock soared.



You would have to very carefully examine the numbers to understand if 
this is actually true or if they have cooked the books in some manner to 
make it look better than it is.


Randy


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Re: [MBZ] ML55 $1500 on FB $950 on CL

2019-10-28 Thread Floyd Thursby via Mercedes

$1000 now

https://charleston.craigslist.org/cto/d/goose-creek-2000-amg-ml55-mercedes-benz/7008142749.html

On 10/28/19 8:06 AM, Mitch Haley via Mercedes wrote:

SOLD!
This posting has been deleted by its author.

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Re: [MBZ] w124 rear springs

2019-10-28 Thread Curley McLain via Mercedes
yes.  all 10 links are to be loose until the weight of the car is on 
them.  then tighten.   most easily done if you have lotsa 2x8 - 2x12 
blocks, or an alignment rack, etc.   Good catch!


Meade Dillon via Mercedes wrote on 10/28/19 6:30 AM:

Hmmm, I thought the torque of the control arm nuts and bolts was supposed
to be done with the car resting on all four wheels, in "ready to drive"
condition (nothing loaded but full fuel tank and all fluids topped up,
spare tire and tools in place).  I think that the rear axles have just a
slight downward angle in this position?
-
Max
Charleston SC





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Re: [MBZ] w124 rear springs

2019-10-28 Thread Kaleb Striplin via Mercedes
That’s what I thought. I know they do on a 123 etc.

Sent from my iPhone

> On Oct 27, 2019, at 10:17 PM, Curley McLain via Mercedes 
>  wrote:
> 
> I thought the rear springs would come out with the car up and the shock 
> unbolted.  I know they do with 110 and 123, and I am pretty sure i've done it 
> on the 124.
> 
> Karl Wittnebel via Mercedes wrote on 10/27/19 9:43 PM:
>> Is it possible to get these back in without the compressor? I torqued
>> everything with the subframe on the bench and there is no way I am doing
>> that again, the control arm wont go down all the way even with my 100lb kid
>> standing on the hub. I guess I am looking for a compressor tomorrow.
>> 
>> 
> 
> 
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Re: [MBZ] w124 rear springs

2019-10-28 Thread Karl Wittnebel via Mercedes
I checked it on the e420 and they were pretty flat. I think you just dont
want to have them all the way down.

On Mon, Oct 28, 2019, 4:31 AM Meade Dillon via Mercedes <
mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:

> Hmmm, I thought the torque of the control arm nuts and bolts was supposed
> to be done with the car resting on all four wheels, in "ready to drive"
> condition (nothing loaded but full fuel tank and all fluids topped up,
> spare tire and tools in place).  I think that the rear axles have just a
> slight downward angle in this position?
> -
> Max
> Charleston SC
>
>
> On Mon, Oct 28, 2019 at 12:44 AM Karl Wittnebel via Mercedes <
> mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:
>
> > Yeah, they came out fine. Getting them back in without a compressor is
> the
> > question. One is supposed to torque all the bolts with the axles
> > horizontal; this means all the bushings are holding the control arms up
> > when the subframe is bolted back in. If you put the springs in before
> > jacking the subframe up, you are now fighting the bushing torque as the
> > springs push down on it all. Getting the bolts started is hard
> > enough without that. So I bolted the frame in, but now there is no way to
> > get the springs back in without a compressor.
> >
> > On Sun, Oct 27, 2019 at 8:18 PM Curley McLain via Mercedes <
> > mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:
> >
> > > I thought the rear springs would come out with the car up and the shock
> > > unbolted.  I know they do with 110 and 123, and I am pretty sure i've
> > > done it on the 124.
> > >
> > > Karl Wittnebel via Mercedes wrote on 10/27/19 9:43 PM:
> > > > Is it possible to get these back in without the compressor? I torqued
> > > > everything with the subframe on the bench and there is no way I am
> > doing
> > > > that again, the control arm wont go down all the way even with my
> 100lb
> > > kid
> > > > standing on the hub. I guess I am looking for a compressor tomorrow.
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ___
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> > >
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> > >
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Re: [MBZ] ML55 $1500 on FB $950 on CL

2019-10-28 Thread Mitch Haley via Mercedes
SOLD!
This posting has been deleted by its author.

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Re: [MBZ] w124 rear springs

2019-10-28 Thread Meade Dillon via Mercedes
Hmmm, I thought the torque of the control arm nuts and bolts was supposed
to be done with the car resting on all four wheels, in "ready to drive"
condition (nothing loaded but full fuel tank and all fluids topped up,
spare tire and tools in place).  I think that the rear axles have just a
slight downward angle in this position?
-
Max
Charleston SC


On Mon, Oct 28, 2019 at 12:44 AM Karl Wittnebel via Mercedes <
mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:

> Yeah, they came out fine. Getting them back in without a compressor is the
> question. One is supposed to torque all the bolts with the axles
> horizontal; this means all the bushings are holding the control arms up
> when the subframe is bolted back in. If you put the springs in before
> jacking the subframe up, you are now fighting the bushing torque as the
> springs push down on it all. Getting the bolts started is hard
> enough without that. So I bolted the frame in, but now there is no way to
> get the springs back in without a compressor.
>
> On Sun, Oct 27, 2019 at 8:18 PM Curley McLain via Mercedes <
> mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:
>
> > I thought the rear springs would come out with the car up and the shock
> > unbolted.  I know they do with 110 and 123, and I am pretty sure i've
> > done it on the 124.
> >
> > Karl Wittnebel via Mercedes wrote on 10/27/19 9:43 PM:
> > > Is it possible to get these back in without the compressor? I torqued
> > > everything with the subframe on the bench and there is no way I am
> doing
> > > that again, the control arm wont go down all the way even with my 100lb
> > kid
> > > standing on the hub. I guess I am looking for a compressor tomorrow.
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > ___
> > http://www.okiebenz.com
> >
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> >
> > To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
> > http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
> >
> >
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Re: [MBZ] OT: lutefisk

2019-10-28 Thread Meade Dillon via Mercedes
Hah!  Lefse and lutefisk, what memories!  My Italian-heritage bride would
be completely befuddled.  I've tried to describe it several times, but no
words can prepare one for the lutefisk experience.

He doesn't explain lefse very well, I would describe it as a soft flat
bread made from potatoes, the Norwegian version of a tortilla.  Very very
good with butter and the sprinkled with sugar and cinnamon, rolled up.
-
Max
Charleston SC


On Sun, Oct 27, 2019 at 10:42 PM Curley McLain via Mercedes <
mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:

>  From Jerry Apps, a Wisconsin writer. Don't miss the quote!  It is
> my new favorite!
>
> "Little did I know when I married into a Norwegian family that I was
> expected to enjoy the Norwegian delicacy, lutefisk. For 58 years I have
> successfully avoided lutefisk (dried codfish that is soaked in a lye
> solution for several days to rehydrate it). All of this changed a few
> Saturdays ago when our friend, Patty Putnam invited my brother-law,
> Clarence Olson, my wife and me to attend the 72nd annual lutefisk dinner
> at the Vermont Lutheran Church located near Black Earth.
>
> I was amazed to learn that over 900 people had signed up for this annual
> event. According to Pastor Barry Hoerz, people come from near and
> far—this year from Maryland, Arizona, and Missouri besides from all over
> Wisconsin. About every 45 minutes a new batch of people were served—from
> about eleven a.m. to six p.m. The meal was served family-style.
>
> They served 600 pounds of lutefisk, 620 pounds of boiled potatoes, green
> beans, cranberry relish, and lefse. For the unknowing, lefse is made
> from potatoes. The Vermont church cooks made 1,400, 12-inch rounds of
> lefse, using an additional 350 pounds of potatoes. Not to forget the
> Norwegian cookies of many kinds—just the best.
> To prepare the lutefisk, it is rinsed with cold water to remove the lye,
> then boiled or baked. It is served with lots of butter.
>
> I ate some lutefisk, but, with my German upbringing, I could not find
> anything especially notable about its taste. I found this old
> Norwegian-American saying: “About half the Norwegians who immigrated to
> America came to escape lutefisk. The other half came to spread the
> gospel of lutefisk’s wonderfulness.” That says it all."
>
> BTW, all Jerry's books are good!
>
> I was able in 1987, to attend Swedesburg Lutheran Church Smorgasbord.  I
> call it "the Swede feed."Same kinda deal Jerry tells this story
> about.  Lefse, lutefisk, oostakaka, apfelkaka, lingonberries,
> lingonberry, this and lingonberry that.   All good stuff, except the
> lutefisk!   People came from probably 15 or 20 states.  You had to be
> related to someone there to get a ticket, so we were real outsiders,
> being German-Irish and German-Polish.  Our employee who grew up in that
> church and still goes to that church got us a couple tickets.
> (Blackmarket, because we are NOT swedish, or even Scandenavian!)They
> had one dish they claim, but I claim is German:  Pickled herring!  THAT
> was good too!
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Re: [MBZ] GM Trying to Shame It's Employees

2019-10-28 Thread Peter Frederick via Mercedes
Modern business schools don't address the notion of increasing revenue, it's 
all about cutting employees and reducing product quality.

Never-never land is an improvement over modern American business management, at 
least it's know to be a fantasy instead of being pedaled around as fact.

Ain't much blood in a stone.
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Re: [MBZ] GM Trying to Shame It's Employees

2019-10-28 Thread archer75--- via Mercedes
On Sun, 27 Oct 2019 15:37:48 -0400
Andrew Strasfogel via Mercedes  wrote:

> Tesla just made a quarterly profit -shocking everyone.  Stock soared.
> 
> On Sat, Oct 26, 2019 at 10:18 PM Curley McLain via Mercedes <
> mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:
> 
> > Elton stink has a bigger teat to suck on than GM is how I'd 'splainit.
> >
> > Karl Wittnebel via Mercedes wrote on 10/26/19 7:11 PM:
> > > Man how is it possible that Tesla has market cap higher than GM? Tesla is
> > > at 53B, GM at 51B. Maybe Tesla will figure out how to make money reliably
> > > soon. Which would help justify things.

Profit rose by reducing costs, but revenue was down. Hmmm. How many 
(questionable) ways are there for a corporation to show reduced costs? 
Increased revenue?
Gerry

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