Re: [MBZ] Brake Bleeder

[Peter Frederick]

I use a MitiVac hand pump.  Can be hard to tell when you have all the  
air out due to the leakage around the open bleeder screw, but for  
doing things like installing new lines and changing fluid they are  
great.


Peter

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Re: [MBZ] Brake Bleeder

[Mitch Haley]

Jerry Herrman wrote:


Is there a "one-size-fits-all" brake bleeder?


Pressure bleeder?
Back when I had Snap-On tool service and free annual catalogs, they had a 
pressure vessel, and a whole slew of adapters to connect it to all the many 
different reservoirs on the market. There was also a 'universal' adapter, 
basically a flat rubber surfaced plate that could be strapped to the top of any 
reservoir that had a flat opening which was smaller than the plate.


Mitch.


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Re: [MBZ] Brake Bleeder

[LWB250]

The various power or pressure bleeders out there all require adapters of some 
sort to fit the master cylinder.

While pressure bleeding is certainly the way to go, and the only way to go in 
the instance of ABS systems (I believe), I have gotten along just fine for 
years using a vacuum pump (MityVac) and a collection jar.  I like this method 
better than pressure bleeding, as you still have to get under the car and get 
to the bleeder anyway, and you don't have to worry about blowouts and getting 
brake fluid on painted surface.





From: Jerry Herrman 
To: mercedes@okiebenz.com
Sent: Sunday, September 4, 2011 5:46 PM
Subject: [MBZ] Brake Bleeder

Now, I will start out by acknowledging that this question is
 premature in that I have done no research or checking before asking this 
question.

Is there a "one-size-fits-all" brake bleeder?  I have various cars spannning 
the last 50 years, and each seems to have a different master cylinder (M/C) 
configuration. The cars are listed below.
Having recently changed a M/C, and having spent considerable time bleeding the 
brakes by the tried and true "pump the brake pedal by myself" method, I thought 
surely a pressurized bleeder would save time and aggravation.
Is this true? Is it easy to work? Can I have one bleeder which will do them all?
Confession time - I have never changed brake fluid, unless it was necessary 
after opening the system and replacing parts I would like now to be able to do 
this on a regular basis.

Jerry

82 MB 240D
60 Olds
72 Ford F250
91 Volvo 240
05 Odyssey (wife made me buy it)
07 Highlander (wife's car)


__ Information from ESET
 Smart Security, version of virus signature database 6435 (20110904) __

The message was checked by ESET Smart Security.

http://www.eset.com

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Re: [MBZ] Brake Bleeder

[Max Dillon]

I have both pressure bleeder and mity vac, the pressure bleeder is great. 
However, when installing a new master cylinder, I run a line from bleeder valve 
on nearest caliper back to the reservoir, fill the reservoir, and pump the 
fluid around in a circle (master cylinder to caliper via hard brake line, 
caliper back to reservoir via tube from bleeder valve) until no more bubbles 
are present, then pressure or gravity bleed to make sure all the air is out.

Max
-- 
Sent from my Android phone with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.

Jerry Herrman  wrote:

Now, I will start out by acknowledging that this question is premature in that 
I have done no research or checking before asking this question.

Is there a "one-size-fits-all" brake bleeder? I have various cars spannning the 
last 50 years, and each seems to have a different master cylinder (M/C) 
configuration. The cars are listed below.
Having recently changed a M/C, and having spent considerable time bleeding the 
brakes by the tried and true "pump the brake pedal by myself" method, I thought 
surely a pressurized bleeder would save time and aggravation.
Is this true? Is it easy to work? Can I have one bleeder which will do them all?
Confession time - I have never changed brake fluid, unless it was necessary 
after opening the system and replacing parts I would like now to be able to do 
this on a regular basis.

Jerry

82 MB 240D
60 Olds
72 Ford F250
91 Volvo 240
05 Odyssey (wife made me buy it)
07 Highlander (wife's car)


__ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus signature 
database 6435 (20110904) __

The message was checked by ESET Smart Security.

http://www.eset.com

_

http://www.okiebenz.com
For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com
To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/

To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com

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Re: [MBZ] Brake Bleeder

[Allan Streib]

Pressure bleeded is great, I have one by Motive similar to this one:

http://www.amazon.com/Motive-Products-Bleeder-Pressure-Bleeder-MP-0165/dp/B004N768OS

Mine came with one screw-on "cap" that by good fortune fits the fluid
reservoir on all our cars, including the Benzes.  May be close to a
standard diameter/thread?

I'll never bleed by "pumping the pedal" or MityVac again.

Allan

"Jerry Herrman"  writes:

> Now, I will start out by acknowledging that this question is premature in 
> that I have done no research or checking before asking this question.
>
> Is there a "one-size-fits-all" brake bleeder?  I have various cars spannning 
> the last 50 years, and each seems to have a different master cylinder (M/C) 
> configuration. The cars are listed below.
> Having recently changed a M/C, and having spent considerable time bleeding 
> the brakes by the tried and true "pump the brake pedal by myself" method, I 
> thought surely a pressurized bleeder would save time and aggravation.
> Is this true? Is it easy to work? Can I have one bleeder which will do them 
> all?
> Confession time - I have never changed brake fluid, unless it was necessary 
> after opening the system and replacing parts I would like now to be able to 
> do this on a regular basis.
>
> Jerry
>
> 82 MB 240D
> 60 Olds
> 72 Ford F250
> 91 Volvo 240
> 05 Odyssey (wife made me buy it)
> 07 Highlander (wife's car)
>
>
> __ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus signature 
> database 6435 (20110904) __
>
> The message was checked by ESET Smart Security.
>
> http://www.eset.com
>
> ___
> http://www.okiebenz.com
> For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com
> To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/
>
> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
> http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
>

-- 
1983 300D
1979 300SD

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Re: [MBZ] Brake Bleeder

[Hans Neureiter]

I have one of the last ones FALCO TOOLS sold: "Speedy Bleed".
IIRC some time in 1997. They had a generic adapter for US cars/trucks which
I didn't get.
Takes regulated pressure from a hose clipped to a tire valve and fits the
cap on any MB MC reservoir. Works great. (Regulator prevents the level
sensors from popping off).

Falco Tools
161 C Street
Blaine, WA 98230

BTW, I found the two brake hoses I was going to install. Speedy Bleed made
this not neccessary at the time. Next brake job, maybe.

On Sun, Sep 4, 2011 at 4:46 PM, Jerry Herrman  wrote:

> Now, I will start out by acknowledging that this question is premature in
> that I have done no research or checking before asking this question.
>
> Is there a "one-size-fits-all" brake bleeder?  I have various cars
> spannning the last 50 years, and each seems to have a different master
> cylinder (M/C) configuration. The cars are listed below.
> Having recently changed a M/C, and having spent considerable time bleeding
> the brakes by the tried and true "pump the brake pedal by myself" method, I
> thought surely a pressurized bleeder would save time and aggravation.
> Is this true? Is it easy to work? Can I have one bleeder which will do them
> all?
> Confession time - I have never changed brake fluid, unless it was necessary
> after opening the system and replacing parts I would like now to be able to
> do this on a regular basis.
>
> Jerry
>
> 82 MB 240D
> 60 Olds
> 72 Ford F250
> 91 Volvo 240
> 05 Odyssey (wife made me buy it)
> 07 Highlander (wife's car)
>
>
> __ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus signature
> database 6435 (20110904) __
>
> The message was checked by ESET Smart Security.
>
> http://www.eset.com
>
> ___
> http://www.okiebenz.com
> For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com
> To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/
>
> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
> http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
>



-- 
Hans Neureiter, Katy, TX
'82 300SD
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Re: [MBZ] Brake Bleeder

[Hans Neureiter]

http://autorepair.about.com/cs/productreviews/fr/aafpr051003.htm

On Sun, Sep 4, 2011 at 4:46 PM, Jerry Herrman  wrote:

> Now, I will start out by acknowledging that this question is premature in
> that I have done no research or checking before asking this question.
>
> Is there a "one-size-fits-all" brake bleeder?  I have various cars
> spannning the last 50 years, and each seems to have a different master
> cylinder (M/C) configuration. The cars are listed below.
> Having recently changed a M/C, and having spent considerable time bleeding
> the brakes by the tried and true "pump the brake pedal by myself" method, I
> thought surely a pressurized bleeder would save time and aggravation.
> Is this true? Is it easy to work? Can I have one bleeder which will do them
> all?
> Confession time - I have never changed brake fluid, unless it was necessary
> after opening the system and replacing parts I would like now to be able to
> do this on a regular basis.
>
> Jerry
>
> 82 MB 240D
> 60 Olds
> 72 Ford F250
> 91 Volvo 240
> 05 Odyssey (wife made me buy it)
> 07 Highlander (wife's car)
>
>
> __ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus signature
> database 6435 (20110904) __
>
> The message was checked by ESET Smart Security.
>
> http://www.eset.com
>
> ___
> http://www.okiebenz.com
> For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com
> To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/
>
> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
> http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
>



-- 
Hans Neureiter, Katy, TX
'82 300SD
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Re: [MBZ] Brake Bleeder

[G Mann]

Over the past 40 years I have owned, I believe, every pressure bleed brake
system, vacuum bleed system, and every other crackpot tool invented to bleed
brakes.  They now all reside on my tool collection board of tools that cost
loads of money, don't work well [or not at all] and "I would never buy
again.

Some years ago I started using a system that DOES work well, Doesn't cost
much, and so far hasn't failed me.  It allows me to bleed both hydraulic
clutch systems and brake systems without a helper,  truly one man.  Since I
started using it, I now change out the hydraulic fluids as a regular
scheduled item.

Here is how it works for me:

1. Open the master cylinder cover, lay a clean cloth over it [stray
dirt/bugs/etc are forbidden]

2.
Hook a common squeeze bulb [like you siphon gas into your lawn mower with]
to the bleed nipple farthest from the master cylinder [play with fuel line
hose sizes to get it done for your particular application]... drop the exit
hose into a receiving container [you are going to dispose of it right?]  If
you already have a hand vacuum pump with a receiver bottle... that can work
as well.

3. Squeeze pump the old fluid out of the master cylinder till it's empty,
repeat operation 2. for each bleed nipple to evacuate each line from the
master to wheel cylinder.

4. Wipe clean all the "gunk" left inside the Master Cylinder. [I often use
spray brake cleen at this point to get all the slime, then carefully dry it
out]

5. Using an old fashioned metal hand pump oil can [like your grandfather
had... they are still available... cost maybe $5... and never use it for
oil... just this]  fill it with brake fluid.. attach a properly sized length
of fuel hose to the squirt tube and the other end to the brake bleed nipple.
I like to use a generous length here so I can work outside the wheel instead
of under the car...

6. Lay the cover loosely over the Master Cylinder.. [CAUTION.. if you do not
do this you will have brake fluid where you do not want it,, plus a mess to
clean up]

7. Start pumping brake fluid backwards from the nipple... to the master
cylinder... start at the longest line run first... WATCH FOR FLUID AT THE
MASTER CYLINDER... it will come nicely.. DO NOT fill the master from only
one nipple

8. Go to the next longest line.. pump brake fluid same way... increase fluid
amount in Master cylinder... go to next longest.. etc etc...

9. Of course, close each nipple when you are done pumping at that station.
Top off the Master Cylinder to required level...

10. Brakes are now bled... all air has been pushed from lowest point to
highest point.. a direction of travel that follows laws of nature and
physics..

Total cost for tools... something less than $15. System how has clean fluid
from top to bottom... SHMBO has not been disturbed or irritated with "pump
it more" commands. [you know how well that is received... in summer heat or
winter cold right?]

CAUTION:.. DO NOT let the pump can run out of fluid. Check the Master
Cylinder often, [ie. don't over fill it, easy to do with this system] If
that should happen, just suck some out with your hand squeeze bulb into the
receiving container.  Check the pump can also. If you pump air instead of
fluid because you let the can run empty.. you get to start over
OOO...

Works for me... HTH,,,[Hope This Helps,]

Grant...


On Sun, Sep 4, 2011 at 3:40 PM, Max Dillon wrote:

> I have both pressure bleeder and mity vac, the pressure bleeder is great.
> However, when installing a new master cylinder, I run a line from bleeder
> valve on nearest caliper back to the reservoir, fill the reservoir, and pump
> the fluid around in a circle (master cylinder to caliper via hard brake
> line, caliper back to reservoir via tube from bleeder valve) until no more
> bubbles are present, then pressure or gravity bleed to make sure all the air
> is out.
>
> Max
> --
> Sent from my Android phone with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.
>
> Jerry Herrman  wrote:
>
> Now, I will start out by acknowledging that this question is premature in
> that I have done no research or checking before asking this question.
>
> Is there a "one-size-fits-all" brake bleeder? I have various cars spannning
> the last 50 years, and each seems to have a different master cylinder (M/C)
> configuration. The cars are listed below.
> Having recently changed a M/C, and having spent considerable time bleeding
> the brakes by the tried and true "pump the brake pedal by myself" method, I
> thought surely a pressurized bleeder would save time and aggravation.
> Is this true? Is it easy to work? Can I have one bleeder which will do them
> all?
> Confession time - I have never changed brake fluid, unless it was necessary
> after opening the system and replacing parts I would like now to be able to
> do this on a regular basis.
>
> Jerry
>
> 82 MB 240D
> 60 Olds
> 72 Ford F250
> 91 Volvo 240
> 05 Odyssey (wife made me buy it)
> 07 Highlander (wife's car)
>
>
> __ Informati

Re: [MBZ] Brake Bleeder

[Max Dillon]

I have a Motive bleeder as well, nice product.

Max
-- 
Sent from my Android phone with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.

Allan Streib  wrote:

Pressure bleeded is great, I have one by Motive similar to this one:

http://www.amazon.com/Motive-Products-Bleeder-Pressure-Bleeder-MP-0165/dp/B004N768OS

Mine came with one screw-on "cap" that by good fortune fits the fluid
reservoir on all our cars, including the Benzes. May be close to a
standard diameter/thread?

I'll never bleed by "pumping the pedal" or MityVac again.

Allan

"Jerry Herrman"  writes:

> Now, I will start out by acknowledging that this question is premature in 
> that I have done no research or checking before asking this question.
>
> Is there a "one-size-fits-all" brake bleeder? I have various cars spannning 
> the last 50 years, and each seems to have a different master cylinder (M/C) 
> configuration. The cars are listed below.
> Having recently changed a M/C, and having spent considerable time bleeding 
> the brakes by the tried and true "pump the brake pedal by myself" method, I 
> thought surely a pressurized bleeder would save time and aggravation.
> Is this true? Is it easy to work? Can I have one bleeder which will do them 
> all?
> Confession time - I have never changed brake fluid, unless it was necessary 
> after opening the system and replacing parts I would like now to be able to 
> do this on a regular basis.
>
> Jerry
>
> 82 MB 240D
> 60 Olds
> 72 Ford F250
> 91 Volvo 240
> 05 Odyssey (wife made me buy it)
> 07 Highlander (wife's car)
>
>
> __ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus signature 
> database 6435 (20110904) __
>
> The message was checked by ESET Smart Security.
>
> http://www.eset.com
>
>_

> http://www.okiebenz.com
> For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com
> To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/
>
> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
> http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
>

-- 
1983 300D
1979 300SD

_

http://www.okiebenz.com
For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com
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Re: [MBZ] Brake Bleeder

[Dieselhead]

THat sounds like a truly good, simple (and inexpensive system.  Thanks.

for draining old fluid, I have had good luck just opening the 
bleeders and letting gravity do the work, as long as I am not in a 
hurry.  (Leave it overnight etc.)  Then with the bleeders still open, 
Pour new fluid in, and close each bleeder as it gets fluid.  Again, 
fill the res. to the full mark, and let it sit at least as long as 
you did to drain...  Test the brakes after the wait.  In most cases, 
there is no air in the system.  BTW< this worked on the SDL with ABS 
when I changed over to Silicone fluid (DOT 5).




Over the past 40 years I have owned, I believe, every pressure bleed brake
system, vacuum bleed system, and every other crackpot tool invented to bleed
brakes.  They now all reside on my tool collection board of tools that cost
loads of money, don't work well [or not at all] and "I would never buy
again.

Some years ago I started using a system that DOES work well, Doesn't cost
much, and so far hasn't failed me.  It allows me to bleed both hydraulic
clutch systems and brake systems without a helper,  truly one man.  Since I
started using it, I now change out the hydraulic fluids as a regular
scheduled item.

Here is how it works for me:

1. Open the master cylinder cover, lay a clean cloth over it [stray
dirt/bugs/etc are forbidden]

2.
Hook a common squeeze bulb [like you siphon gas into your lawn mower with]
to the bleed nipple farthest from the master cylinder [play with fuel line
hose sizes to get it done for your particular application]... drop the exit
hose into a receiving container [you are going to dispose of it right?]  If
you already have a hand vacuum pump with a receiver bottle... that can work
as well.

3. Squeeze pump the old fluid out of the master cylinder till it's empty,
repeat operation 2. for each bleed nipple to evacuate each line from the
master to wheel cylinder.

4. Wipe clean all the "gunk" left inside the Master Cylinder. [I often use
spray brake cleen at this point to get all the slime, then carefully dry it
out]

5. Using an old fashioned metal hand pump oil can [like your grandfather
had... they are still available... cost maybe $5... and never use it for
oil... just this]  fill it with brake fluid.. attach a properly sized length
of fuel hose to the squirt tube and the other end to the brake bleed nipple.
I like to use a generous length here so I can work outside the wheel instead
of under the car...

6. Lay the cover loosely over the Master Cylinder.. [CAUTION.. if you do not
do this you will have brake fluid where you do not want it,, plus a mess to
clean up]

7. Start pumping brake fluid backwards from the nipple... to the master
cylinder... start at the longest line run first... WATCH FOR FLUID AT THE
MASTER CYLINDER... it will come nicely.. DO NOT fill the master from only
one nipple

8. Go to the next longest line.. pump brake fluid same way... increase fluid
amount in Master cylinder... go to next longest.. etc etc...

9. Of course, close each nipple when you are done pumping at that station.
Top off the Master Cylinder to required level...

10. Brakes are now bled... all air has been pushed from lowest point to
highest point.. a direction of travel that follows laws of nature and
physics..

Total cost for tools... something less than $15. System how has clean fluid
from top to bottom... SHMBO has not been disturbed or irritated with "pump
it more" commands. [you know how well that is received... in summer heat or
winter cold right?]

CAUTION:.. DO NOT let the pump can run out of fluid. Check the Master
Cylinder often, [ie. don't over fill it, easy to do with this system] If
that should happen, just suck some out with your hand squeeze bulb into the
receiving container.  Check the pump can also. If you pump air instead of
fluid because you let the can run empty.. you get to start over
OOO...

Works for me... HTH,,,[Hope This Helps,]

Grant...



___
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For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com
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Re: [MBZ] Brake Bleeder

[Brian Toscano]

I do gravity bleeding also.  Its work fine on all my vehicles.

Brian


On Sun, Sep 4, 2011 at 6:04 PM, Dieselhead <126die...@gmail.com> wrote:

> THat sounds like a truly good, simple (and inexpensive system.  Thanks.
>
> for draining old fluid, I have had good luck just opening the bleeders and
> letting gravity do the work, as long as I am not in a hurry.  (Leave it
> overnight etc.)  Then with the bleeders still open, Pour new fluid in, and
> close each bleeder as it gets fluid.  Again, fill the res. to the full mark,
> and let it sit at least as long as you did to drain...  Test the brakes
> after the wait.  In most cases, there is no air in the system.  BTW< this
> worked on the SDL with ABS when I changed over to Silicone fluid (DOT 5).
>
>
>  Over the past 40 years I have owned, I believe, every pressure bleed brake
>> system, vacuum bleed system, and every other crackpot tool invented to
>> bleed
>> brakes.  They now all reside on my tool collection board of tools that
>> cost
>> loads of money, don't work well [or not at all] and "I would never buy
>> again.
>>
>> Some years ago I started using a system that DOES work well, Doesn't cost
>> much, and so far hasn't failed me.  It allows me to bleed both hydraulic
>> clutch systems and brake systems without a helper,  truly one man.  Since
>> I
>> started using it, I now change out the hydraulic fluids as a regular
>> scheduled item.
>>
>> Here is how it works for me:
>>
>> 1. Open the master cylinder cover, lay a clean cloth over it [stray
>> dirt/bugs/etc are forbidden]
>>
>> 2.
>> Hook a common squeeze bulb [like you siphon gas into your lawn mower with]
>> to the bleed nipple farthest from the master cylinder [play with fuel line
>> hose sizes to get it done for your particular application]... drop the
>> exit
>> hose into a receiving container [you are going to dispose of it right?]
>>  If
>> you already have a hand vacuum pump with a receiver bottle... that can
>> work
>> as well.
>>
>> 3. Squeeze pump the old fluid out of the master cylinder till it's empty,
>> repeat operation 2. for each bleed nipple to evacuate each line from the
>> master to wheel cylinder.
>>
>> 4. Wipe clean all the "gunk" left inside the Master Cylinder. [I often use
>> spray brake cleen at this point to get all the slime, then carefully dry
>> it
>> out]
>>
>> 5. Using an old fashioned metal hand pump oil can [like your grandfather
>> had... they are still available... cost maybe $5... and never use it for
>> oil... just this]  fill it with brake fluid.. attach a properly sized
>> length
>> of fuel hose to the squirt tube and the other end to the brake bleed
>> nipple.
>> I like to use a generous length here so I can work outside the wheel
>> instead
>> of under the car...
>>
>> 6. Lay the cover loosely over the Master Cylinder.. [CAUTION.. if you do
>> not
>> do this you will have brake fluid where you do not want it,, plus a mess
>> to
>> clean up]
>>
>> 7. Start pumping brake fluid backwards from the nipple... to the master
>> cylinder... start at the longest line run first... WATCH FOR FLUID AT THE
>> MASTER CYLINDER... it will come nicely.. DO NOT fill the master from only
>> one nipple
>>
>> 8. Go to the next longest line.. pump brake fluid same way... increase
>> fluid
>> amount in Master cylinder... go to next longest.. etc etc...
>>
>> 9. Of course, close each nipple when you are done pumping at that station.
>> Top off the Master Cylinder to required level...
>>
>> 10. Brakes are now bled... all air has been pushed from lowest point to
>> highest point.. a direction of travel that follows laws of nature and
>> physics..
>>
>> Total cost for tools... something less than $15. System how has clean
>> fluid
>> from top to bottom... SHMBO has not been disturbed or irritated with "pump
>> it more" commands. [you know how well that is received... in summer heat
>> or
>> winter cold right?]
>>
>> CAUTION:.. DO NOT let the pump can run out of fluid. Check the Master
>> Cylinder often, [ie. don't over fill it, easy to do with this system] If
>> that should happen, just suck some out with your hand squeeze bulb into
>> the
>> receiving container.  Check the pump can also. If you pump air instead of
>> fluid because you let the can run empty.. you get to start over
>> OOO...
>>
>> Works for me... HTH,,,[Hope This Helps,]
>>
>> Grant...
>>
>>
> __**_
> http://www.okiebenz.com
> For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com
> To search list archives 
> http://www.okiebenz.com/**archive/
>
> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
> http://mail.okiebenz.com/**mailman/listinfo/mercedes_**okiebenz.com
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For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com
To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/

To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go t

Re: [MBZ] Brake Bleeder

[Max Dillon]

Certainly cheaper than the Motive Power bleeder. Didn't someone on the list 
make their own power bleeder from a pump sprayer?

Max
-- 
Sent from my Android phone with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.

G Mann  wrote:

Over the past 40 years I have owned, I believe, every pressure bleed brake
system, vacuum bleed system, and every other crackpot tool invented to bleed
brakes. They now all reside on my tool collection board of tools that cost
loads of money, don't work well [or not at all] and "I would never buy
again.

Some years ago I started using a system that DOES work well, Doesn't cost
much, and so far hasn't failed me. It allows me to bleed both hydraulic
clutch systems and brake systems without a helper, truly one man. Since I
started using it, I now change out the hydraulic fluids as a regular
scheduled item.

Here is how it works for me:

1. Open the master cylinder cover, lay a clean cloth over it [stray
dirt/bugs/etc are forbidden]

2.
Hook a common squeeze bulb [like you siphon gas into your lawn mower with]
to the bleed nipple farthest from the master cylinder [play with fuel line
hose sizes to get it done for your particular application]... drop the exit
hose into a receiving container [you are going to dispose of it right?] If
you already have a hand vacuum pump with a receiver bottle... that can work
as well.

3. Squeeze pump the old fluid out of the master cylinder till it's empty,
repeat operation 2. for each bleed nipple to evacuate each line from the
master to wheel cylinder.

4. Wipe clean all the "gunk" left inside the Master Cylinder. [I often use
spray brake cleen at this point to get all the slime, then carefully dry it
out]

5. Using an old fashioned metal hand pump oil can [like your grandfather
had... they are still available... cost maybe $5... and never use it for
oil... just this] fill it with brake fluid.. attach a properly sized length
of fuel hose to the squirt tube and the other end to the brake bleed nipple.
I like to use a generous length here so I can work outside the wheel instead
of under the car...

6. Lay the cover loosely over the Master Cylinder.. [CAUTION.. if you do not
do this you will have brake fluid where you do not want it,, plus a mess to
clean up]

7. Start pumping brake fluid backwards from the nipple... to the master
cylinder... start at the longest line run first... WATCH FOR FLUID AT THE
MASTER CYLINDER... it will come nicely.. DO NOT fill the master from only
one nipple

8. Go to the next longest line.. pump brake fluid same way... increase fluid
amount in Master cylinder... go to next longest.. etc etc...

9. Of course, close each nipple when you are done pumping at that station.
Top off the Master Cylinder to required level...

10. Brakes are now bled... all air has been pushed from lowest point to
highest point.. a direction of travel that follows laws of nature and
physics..

Total cost for tools... something less than $15. System how has clean fluid
from top to bottom... SHMBO has not been disturbed or irritated with "pump
it more" commands. [you know how well that is received... in summer heat or
winter cold right?]

CAUTION:.. DO NOT let the pump can run out of fluid. Check the Master
Cylinder often, [ie. don't over fill it, easy to do with this system] If
that should happen, just suck some out with your hand squeeze bulb into the
receiving container. Check the pump can also. If you pump air instead of
fluid because you let the can run empty.. you get to start over
OOO...

Works for me... HTH,,,[Hope This Helps,]

Grant...


On Sun, Sep 4, 2011 at 3:40 PM, Max Dillon wrote:

> I have both pressure bleeder and mity vac, the pressure bleeder is great.
> However, when installing a new master cylinder, I run a line from bleeder
> valve on nearest caliper back to the reservoir, fill the reservoir, and pump
> the fluid around in a circle (master cylinder to caliper via hard brake
> line, caliper back to reservoir via tube from bleeder valve) until no more
> bubbles are present, then pressure or gravity bleed to make sure all the air
> is out.
>
> Max
> --
> Sent from my Android phone with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.
>
> Jerry Herrman  wrote:
>
> Now, I will start out by acknowledging that this question is premature in
> that I have done no research or checking before asking this question.
>
> Is there a "one-size-fits-all" brake bleeder? I have various cars spannning
> the last 50 years, and each seems to have a different master cylinder (M/C)
> configuration. The cars are listed below.
> Having recently changed a M/C, and having spent considerable time bleeding
> the brakes by the tried and true "pump the brake pedal by myself" method, I
> thought surely a pressurized bleeder would save time and aggravation.
> Is this true? Is it easy to work? Can I have one bleeder which will do them
> all?
> Confession time - I have never changed brake fluid, unless it was necessary
> after opening the system and replacing parts I 

Re: [MBZ] Brake Bleeder

[Michael Canfield]

Grant,
  Brilliant idea.  I have a VW Bug that runs about 12.5 seconds in the1/4
mile but seems to take a 1/2 mile to stop after replacing every brake part
and going through gallons of brake fluid trying different methods of
bleeding.  I am going to the parts store asap to get the oil pump can and I
am certain your method will finally get the job done.

Thanks, Mike
Who wishes he had mines big enough to park his M37's in.
On Sep 4, 2011 7:27 PM, "G Mann"  wrote:
> Over the past 40 years I have owned, I believe, every pressure bleed brake
> system, vacuum bleed system, and every other crackpot tool invented to
bleed
> brakes. They now all reside on my tool collection board of tools that cost
> loads of money, don't work well [or not at all] and "I would never buy
> again.
>
> Some years ago I started using a system that DOES work well, Doesn't cost
> much, and so far hasn't failed me. It allows me to bleed both hydraulic
> clutch systems and brake systems without a helper, truly one man. Since I
> started using it, I now change out the hydraulic fluids as a regular
> scheduled item.
>
> Here is how it works for me:
>
> 1. Open the master cylinder cover, lay a clean cloth over it [stray
> dirt/bugs/etc are forbidden]
>
> 2.
> Hook a common squeeze bulb [like you siphon gas into your lawn mower with]
> to the bleed nipple farthest from the master cylinder [play with fuel line
> hose sizes to get it done for your particular application]... drop the
exit
> hose into a receiving container [you are going to dispose of it right?] If
> you already have a hand vacuum pump with a receiver bottle... that can
work
> as well.
>
> 3. Squeeze pump the old fluid out of the master cylinder till it's empty,
> repeat operation 2. for each bleed nipple to evacuate each line from the
> master to wheel cylinder.
>
> 4. Wipe clean all the "gunk" left inside the Master Cylinder. [I often use
> spray brake cleen at this point to get all the slime, then carefully dry
it
> out]
>
> 5. Using an old fashioned metal hand pump oil can [like your grandfather
> had... they are still available... cost maybe $5... and never use it for
> oil... just this] fill it with brake fluid.. attach a properly sized
length
> of fuel hose to the squirt tube and the other end to the brake bleed
nipple.
> I like to use a generous length here so I can work outside the wheel
instead
> of under the car...
>
> 6. Lay the cover loosely over the Master Cylinder.. [CAUTION.. if you do
not
> do this you will have brake fluid where you do not want it,, plus a mess
to
> clean up]
>
> 7. Start pumping brake fluid backwards from the nipple... to the master
> cylinder... start at the longest line run first... WATCH FOR FLUID AT THE
> MASTER CYLINDER... it will come nicely.. DO NOT fill the master from only
> one nipple
>
> 8. Go to the next longest line.. pump brake fluid same way... increase
fluid
> amount in Master cylinder... go to next longest.. etc etc...
>
> 9. Of course, close each nipple when you are done pumping at that station.
> Top off the Master Cylinder to required level...
>
> 10. Brakes are now bled... all air has been pushed from lowest point to
> highest point.. a direction of travel that follows laws of nature and
> physics..
>
> Total cost for tools... something less than $15. System how has clean
fluid
> from top to bottom... SHMBO has not been disturbed or irritated with "pump
> it more" commands. [you know how well that is received... in summer heat
or
> winter cold right?]
>
> CAUTION:.. DO NOT let the pump can run out of fluid. Check the Master
> Cylinder often, [ie. don't over fill it, easy to do with this system] If
> that should happen, just suck some out with your hand squeeze bulb into
the
> receiving container. Check the pump can also. If you pump air instead of
> fluid because you let the can run empty.. you get to start over
> OOO...
>
> Works for me... HTH,,,[Hope This Helps,]
>
> Grant...
>
>
> On Sun, Sep 4, 2011 at 3:40 PM, Max Dillon wrote:
>
>> I have both pressure bleeder and mity vac, the pressure bleeder is great.
>> However, when installing a new master cylinder, I run a line from bleeder
>> valve on nearest caliper back to the reservoir, fill the reservoir, and
pump
>> the fluid around in a circle (master cylinder to caliper via hard brake
>> line, caliper back to reservoir via tube from bleeder valve) until no
more
>> bubbles are present, then pressure or gravity bleed to make sure all the
air
>> is out.
>>
>> Max
>> --
>> Sent from my Android phone with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.
>>
>> Jerry Herrman  wrote:
>>
>> Now, I will start out by acknowledging that this question is premature in
>> that I have done no research or checking before asking this question.
>>
>> Is there a "one-size-fits-all" brake bleeder? I have various cars
spannning
>> the last 50 years, and each seems to have a different master cylinder
(M/C)
>> configuration. The cars are listed below.
>> Having recently changed a M/C, an

Re: [MBZ] Brake Bleeder

[Max Dillon]

You need some disc brake parts from a Porch of the same era, Roger knows where 
one is...

Max (learned to drive on cars with drum brakes)
-- 
Sent from my Android phone with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.

Michael Canfield  wrote:

Grant,
Brilliant idea. I have a VW Bug that runs about 12.5 seconds in the1/4
mile but seems to take a 1/2 mile to stop after replacing every brake part
and going through gallons of brake fluid trying different methods of
bleeding. I am going to the parts store asap to get the oil pump can and I
am certain your method will finally get the job done.

Thanks, Mike
Who wishes he had mines big enough to park his M37's in.
On Sep 4, 2011 7:27 PM, "G Mann"  wrote:
> Over the past 40 years I have owned, I believe, every pressure bleed brake
> system, vacuum bleed system, and every other crackpot tool invented to
bleed
> brakes. They now all reside on my tool collection board of tools that cost
> loads of money, don't work well [or not at all] and "I would never buy
> again.
>
> Some years ago I started using a system that DOES work well, Doesn't cost
> much, and so far hasn't failed me. It allows me to bleed both hydraulic
> clutch systems and brake systems without a helper, truly one man. Since I
> started using it, I now change out the hydraulic fluids as a regular
> scheduled item.
>
> Here is how it works for me:
>
> 1. Open the master cylinder cover, lay a clean cloth over it [stray
> dirt/bugs/etc are forbidden]
>
> 2.
> Hook a common squeeze bulb [like you siphon gas into your lawn mower with]
> to the bleed nipple farthest from the master cylinder [play with fuel line
> hose sizes to get it done for your particular application]... drop the
exit
> hose into a receiving container [you are going to dispose of it right?] If
> you already have a hand vacuum pump with a receiver bottle... that can
work
> as well.
>
> 3. Squeeze pump the old fluid out of the master cylinder till it's empty,
> repeat operation 2. for each bleed nipple to evacuate each line from the
> master to wheel cylinder.
>
> 4. Wipe clean all the "gunk" left inside the Master Cylinder. [I often use
> spray brake cleen at this point to get all the slime, then carefully dry
it
> out]
>
> 5. Using an old fashioned metal hand pump oil can [like your grandfather
> had... they are still available... cost maybe $5... and never use it for
> oil... just this] fill it with brake fluid.. attach a properly sized
length
> of fuel hose to the squirt tube and the other end to the brake bleed
nipple.
> I like to use a generous length here so I can work outside the wheel
instead
> of under the car...
>
> 6. Lay the cover loosely over the Master Cylinder.. [CAUTION.. if you do
not
> do this you will have brake fluid where you do not want it,, plus a mess
to
> clean up]
>
> 7. Start pumping brake fluid backwards from the nipple... to the master
> cylinder... start at the longest line run first... WATCH FOR FLUID AT THE
> MASTER CYLINDER... it will come nicely.. DO NOT fill the master from only
> one nipple
>
> 8. Go to the next longest line.. pump brake fluid same way... increase
fluid
> amount in Master cylinder... go to next longest.. etc etc...
>
> 9. Of course, close each nipple when you are done pumping at that station.
> Top off the Master Cylinder to required level...
>
> 10. Brakes are now bled... all air has been pushed from lowest point to
> highest point.. a direction of travel that follows laws of nature and
> physics..
>
> Total cost for tools... something less than $15. System how has clean
fluid
> from top to bottom... SHMBO has not been disturbed or irritated with "pump
> it more" commands. [you know how well that is received... in summer heat
or
> winter cold right?]
>
> CAUTION:.. DO NOT let the pump can run out of fluid. Check the Master
> Cylinder often, [ie. don't over fill it, easy to do with this system] If
> that should happen, just suck some out with your hand squeeze bulb into
the
> receiving container. Check the pump can also. If you pump air instead of
> fluid because you let the can run empty.. you get to start over
> OOO...
>
> Works for me... HTH,,,[Hope This Helps,]
>
> Grant...
>
>
> On Sun, Sep 4, 2011 at 3:40 PM, Max Dillon wrote:
>
>> I have both pressure bleeder and mity vac, the pressure bleeder is great.
>> However, when installing a new master cylinder, I run a line from bleeder
>> valve on nearest caliper back to the reservoir, fill the reservoir, and
pump
>> the fluid around in a circle (master cylinder to caliper via hard brake
>> line, caliper back to reservoir via tube from bleeder valve) until no
more
>> bubbles are present, then pressure or gravity bleed to make sure all the
air
>> is out.
>>
>> Max
>> --
>> Sent from my Android phone with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.
>>
>> Jerry Herrman  wrote:
>>
>> Now, I will start out by acknowledging that this question is premature in
>> that I have done no research or checking before asking this question.
>>
>> Is

Re: [MBZ] Brake Bleeder

[G Mann]

I've had really good results using the method, as a one man solution. Hope
it solves your problem.
My results have most often been a full hard brake in two pumps after
"filling the system backwards".  The first time takes a bit longer while you
putz around with finding tubing the right size and connecting it all up...
after that I find it's faster than anything else I've used with much less
mess. [put the cover on the master but loose while pumping or you will
squirt brake fluid up and splash it in the engine compartment, trust me on
that.;)) ]

On Mon, Sep 5, 2011 at 5:37 AM, Michael Canfield wrote:

> Grant,
>  Brilliant idea.  I have a VW Bug that runs about 12.5 seconds in the1/4
> mile but seems to take a 1/2 mile to stop after replacing every brake part
> and going through gallons of brake fluid trying different methods of
> bleeding.  I am going to the parts store asap to get the oil pump can and I
> am certain your method will finally get the job done.
>
> Thanks, Mike
> Who wishes he had mines big enough to park his M37's in.
> On Sep 4, 2011 7:27 PM, "G Mann"  wrote:
> > Over the past 40 years I have owned, I believe, every pressure bleed
> brake
> > system, vacuum bleed system, and every other crackpot tool invented to
> bleed
> > brakes. They now all reside on my tool collection board of tools that
> cost
> > loads of money, don't work well [or not at all] and "I would never buy
> > again.
> >
> > Some years ago I started using a system that DOES work well, Doesn't cost
> > much, and so far hasn't failed me. It allows me to bleed both hydraulic
> > clutch systems and brake systems without a helper, truly one man. Since I
> > started using it, I now change out the hydraulic fluids as a regular
> > scheduled item.
> >
> > Here is how it works for me:
> >
> > 1. Open the master cylinder cover, lay a clean cloth over it [stray
> > dirt/bugs/etc are forbidden]
> >
> > 2.
> > Hook a common squeeze bulb [like you siphon gas into your lawn mower
> with]
> > to the bleed nipple farthest from the master cylinder [play with fuel
> line
> > hose sizes to get it done for your particular application]... drop the
> exit
> > hose into a receiving container [you are going to dispose of it right?]
> If
> > you already have a hand vacuum pump with a receiver bottle... that can
> work
> > as well.
> >
> > 3. Squeeze pump the old fluid out of the master cylinder till it's empty,
> > repeat operation 2. for each bleed nipple to evacuate each line from the
> > master to wheel cylinder.
> >
> > 4. Wipe clean all the "gunk" left inside the Master Cylinder. [I often
> use
> > spray brake cleen at this point to get all the slime, then carefully dry
> it
> > out]
> >
> > 5. Using an old fashioned metal hand pump oil can [like your grandfather
> > had... they are still available... cost maybe $5... and never use it for
> > oil... just this] fill it with brake fluid.. attach a properly sized
> length
> > of fuel hose to the squirt tube and the other end to the brake bleed
> nipple.
> > I like to use a generous length here so I can work outside the wheel
> instead
> > of under the car...
> >
> > 6. Lay the cover loosely over the Master Cylinder.. [CAUTION.. if you do
> not
> > do this you will have brake fluid where you do not want it,, plus a mess
> to
> > clean up]
> >
> > 7. Start pumping brake fluid backwards from the nipple... to the master
> > cylinder... start at the longest line run first... WATCH FOR FLUID AT THE
> > MASTER CYLINDER... it will come nicely.. DO NOT fill the master from only
> > one nipple
> >
> > 8. Go to the next longest line.. pump brake fluid same way... increase
> fluid
> > amount in Master cylinder... go to next longest.. etc etc...
> >
> > 9. Of course, close each nipple when you are done pumping at that
> station.
> > Top off the Master Cylinder to required level...
> >
> > 10. Brakes are now bled... all air has been pushed from lowest point to
> > highest point.. a direction of travel that follows laws of nature and
> > physics..
> >
> > Total cost for tools... something less than $15. System how has clean
> fluid
> > from top to bottom... SHMBO has not been disturbed or irritated with
> "pump
> > it more" commands. [you know how well that is received... in summer heat
> or
> > winter cold right?]
> >
> > CAUTION:.. DO NOT let the pump can run out of fluid. Check the Master
> > Cylinder often, [ie. don't over fill it, easy to do with this system] If
> > that should happen, just suck some out with your hand squeeze bulb into
> the
> > receiving container. Check the pump can also. If you pump air instead of
> > fluid because you let the can run empty.. you get to start over
> > OOO...
> >
> > Works for me... HTH,,,[Hope This Helps,]
> >
> > Grant...
> >
> >
> > On Sun, Sep 4, 2011 at 3:40 PM, Max Dillon  >wrote:
> >
> >> I have both pressure bleeder and mity vac, the pressure bleeder is
> great.
> >> However, when installing a new master cylinder, I run a line from
> bleeder

Re: [MBZ] Brake Bleeder

[Michael Canfield]

Hhhmm.  I don't think I have to worry about brake fluid in the engine
compartment with the bug..lol.  ;-)

Thanks again, Mike
On Sep 5, 2011 9:49 AM, "G Mann"  wrote:
> I've had really good results using the method, as a one man solution. Hope
> it solves your problem.
> My results have most often been a full hard brake in two pumps after
> "filling the system backwards". The first time takes a bit longer while
you
> putz around with finding tubing the right size and connecting it all up...
> after that I find it's faster than anything else I've used with much less
> mess. [put the cover on the master but loose while pumping or you will
> squirt brake fluid up and splash it in the engine compartment, trust me on
> that.;)) ]
>
> On Mon, Sep 5, 2011 at 5:37 AM, Michael Canfield wrote:
>
>> Grant,
>> Brilliant idea. I have a VW Bug that runs about 12.5 seconds in the1/4
>> mile but seems to take a 1/2 mile to stop after replacing every brake
part
>> and going through gallons of brake fluid trying different methods of
>> bleeding. I am going to the parts store asap to get the oil pump can and
I
>> am certain your method will finally get the job done.
>>
>> Thanks, Mike
>> Who wishes he had mines big enough to park his M37's in.
>> On Sep 4, 2011 7:27 PM, "G Mann"  wrote:
>> > Over the past 40 years I have owned, I believe, every pressure bleed
>> brake
>> > system, vacuum bleed system, and every other crackpot tool invented to
>> bleed
>> > brakes. They now all reside on my tool collection board of tools that
>> cost
>> > loads of money, don't work well [or not at all] and "I would never buy
>> > again.
>> >
>> > Some years ago I started using a system that DOES work well, Doesn't
cost
>> > much, and so far hasn't failed me. It allows me to bleed both hydraulic
>> > clutch systems and brake systems without a helper, truly one man. Since
I
>> > started using it, I now change out the hydraulic fluids as a regular
>> > scheduled item.
>> >
>> > Here is how it works for me:
>> >
>> > 1. Open the master cylinder cover, lay a clean cloth over it [stray
>> > dirt/bugs/etc are forbidden]
>> >
>> > 2.
>> > Hook a common squeeze bulb [like you siphon gas into your lawn mower
>> with]
>> > to the bleed nipple farthest from the master cylinder [play with fuel
>> line
>> > hose sizes to get it done for your particular application]... drop the
>> exit
>> > hose into a receiving container [you are going to dispose of it right?]
>> If
>> > you already have a hand vacuum pump with a receiver bottle... that can
>> work
>> > as well.
>> >
>> > 3. Squeeze pump the old fluid out of the master cylinder till it's
empty,
>> > repeat operation 2. for each bleed nipple to evacuate each line from
the
>> > master to wheel cylinder.
>> >
>> > 4. Wipe clean all the "gunk" left inside the Master Cylinder. [I often
>> use
>> > spray brake cleen at this point to get all the slime, then carefully
dry
>> it
>> > out]
>> >
>> > 5. Using an old fashioned metal hand pump oil can [like your
grandfather
>> > had... they are still available... cost maybe $5... and never use it
for
>> > oil... just this] fill it with brake fluid.. attach a properly sized
>> length
>> > of fuel hose to the squirt tube and the other end to the brake bleed
>> nipple.
>> > I like to use a generous length here so I can work outside the wheel
>> instead
>> > of under the car...
>> >
>> > 6. Lay the cover loosely over the Master Cylinder.. [CAUTION.. if you
do
>> not
>> > do this you will have brake fluid where you do not want it,, plus a
mess
>> to
>> > clean up]
>> >
>> > 7. Start pumping brake fluid backwards from the nipple... to the master
>> > cylinder... start at the longest line run first... WATCH FOR FLUID AT
THE
>> > MASTER CYLINDER... it will come nicely.. DO NOT fill the master from
only
>> > one nipple
>> >
>> > 8. Go to the next longest line.. pump brake fluid same way... increase
>> fluid
>> > amount in Master cylinder... go to next longest.. etc etc...
>> >
>> > 9. Of course, close each nipple when you are done pumping at that
>> station.
>> > Top off the Master Cylinder to required level...
>> >
>> > 10. Brakes are now bled... all air has been pushed from lowest point to
>> > highest point.. a direction of travel that follows laws of nature and
>> > physics..
>> >
>> > Total cost for tools... something less than $15. System how has clean
>> fluid
>> > from top to bottom... SHMBO has not been disturbed or irritated with
>> "pump
>> > it more" commands. [you know how well that is received... in summer
heat
>> or
>> > winter cold right?]
>> >
>> > CAUTION:.. DO NOT let the pump can run out of fluid. Check the Master
>> > Cylinder often, [ie. don't over fill it, easy to do with this system]
If
>> > that should happen, just suck some out with your hand squeeze bulb into
>> the
>> > receiving container. Check the pump can also. If you pump air instead
of
>> > fluid because you let the can run empty.. you get to start over
>> > OOO...
>

Re: [MBZ] Brake Bleeder

[Michael Canfield]

Hi Max,
  Discs would be a nice upgrade but all of my drum parts are new.  Just have
not been able to get a good pedal.  Pump the crap out of them and it will
lock the rear wheels but nothing on the front with two different master
cylinders.  If Grant's backwards but logical method doesn't work I am going
to try an OE German master cylinder and bleed again, hopefully with better
results.

Mike
On Sep 5, 2011 9:13 AM, "Max Dillon"  wrote:
> You need some disc brake parts from a Porch of the same era, Roger knows
where one is...
>
> Max (learned to drive on cars with drum brakes)
> --
> Sent from my Android phone with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.
>
> Michael Canfield  wrote:
>
> Grant,
> Brilliant idea. I have a VW Bug that runs about 12.5 seconds in the1/4
> mile but seems to take a 1/2 mile to stop after replacing every brake part
> and going through gallons of brake fluid trying different methods of
> bleeding. I am going to the parts store asap to get the oil pump can and I
> am certain your method will finally get the job done.
>
> Thanks, Mike
> Who wishes he had mines big enough to park his M37's in.
> On Sep 4, 2011 7:27 PM, "G Mann"  wrote:
>> Over the past 40 years I have owned, I believe, every pressure bleed
brake
>> system, vacuum bleed system, and every other crackpot tool invented to
> bleed
>> brakes. They now all reside on my tool collection board of tools that
cost
>> loads of money, don't work well [or not at all] and "I would never buy
>> again.
>>
>> Some years ago I started using a system that DOES work well, Doesn't cost
>> much, and so far hasn't failed me. It allows me to bleed both hydraulic
>> clutch systems and brake systems without a helper, truly one man. Since I
>> started using it, I now change out the hydraulic fluids as a regular
>> scheduled item.
>>
>> Here is how it works for me:
>>
>> 1. Open the master cylinder cover, lay a clean cloth over it [stray
>> dirt/bugs/etc are forbidden]
>>
>> 2.
>> Hook a common squeeze bulb [like you siphon gas into your lawn mower
with]
>> to the bleed nipple farthest from the master cylinder [play with fuel
line
>> hose sizes to get it done for your particular application]... drop the
> exit
>> hose into a receiving container [you are going to dispose of it right?]
If
>> you already have a hand vacuum pump with a receiver bottle... that can
> work
>> as well.
>>
>> 3. Squeeze pump the old fluid out of the master cylinder till it's empty,
>> repeat operation 2. for each bleed nipple to evacuate each line from the
>> master to wheel cylinder.
>>
>> 4. Wipe clean all the "gunk" left inside the Master Cylinder. [I often
use
>> spray brake cleen at this point to get all the slime, then carefully dry
> it
>> out]
>>
>> 5. Using an old fashioned metal hand pump oil can [like your grandfather
>> had... they are still available... cost maybe $5... and never use it for
>> oil... just this] fill it with brake fluid.. attach a properly sized
> length
>> of fuel hose to the squirt tube and the other end to the brake bleed
> nipple.
>> I like to use a generous length here so I can work outside the wheel
> instead
>> of under the car...
>>
>> 6. Lay the cover loosely over the Master Cylinder.. [CAUTION.. if you do
> not
>> do this you will have brake fluid where you do not want it,, plus a mess
> to
>> clean up]
>>
>> 7. Start pumping brake fluid backwards from the nipple... to the master
>> cylinder... start at the longest line run first... WATCH FOR FLUID AT THE
>> MASTER CYLINDER... it will come nicely.. DO NOT fill the master from only
>> one nipple
>>
>> 8. Go to the next longest line.. pump brake fluid same way... increase
> fluid
>> amount in Master cylinder... go to next longest.. etc etc...
>>
>> 9. Of course, close each nipple when you are done pumping at that
station.
>> Top off the Master Cylinder to required level...
>>
>> 10. Brakes are now bled... all air has been pushed from lowest point to
>> highest point.. a direction of travel that follows laws of nature and
>> physics..
>>
>> Total cost for tools... something less than $15. System how has clean
> fluid
>> from top to bottom... SHMBO has not been disturbed or irritated with
"pump
>> it more" commands. [you know how well that is received... in summer heat
> or
>> winter cold right?]
>>
>> CAUTION:.. DO NOT let the pump can run out of fluid. Check the Master
>> Cylinder often, [ie. don't over fill it, easy to do with this system] If
>> that should happen, just suck some out with your hand squeeze bulb into
> the
>> receiving container. Check the pump can also. If you pump air instead of
>> fluid because you let the can run empty.. you get to start over
>> OOO...
>>
>> Works for me... HTH,,,[Hope This Helps,]
>>
>> Grant...
>>
>>
>> On Sun, Sep 4, 2011 at 3:40 PM, Max Dillon >wrote:
>>
>>> I have both pressure bleeder and mity vac, the pressure bleeder is
great.
>>> However, when installing a new master cylinder, I run a line from
bleeder
>>> valve on nearest 

Re: [MBZ] Brake Bleeder

[Dan Penoff]

Be sure to bleed the master cylinder before installing it.

One other thing that I found really critical when it came to VW brakes -make 
sure the clevis pin on the pedal is adjusted for 1-2mm clearance when the pedal 
is at rest. If the piston in the master cylinder can't return all the way 
you'll never get good pedal.

Don't ask me how I know this...

Dan

Sent from my iPhone

On Sep 5, 2011, at 10:02 AM, Michael Canfield  wrote:

> Hi Max,
>  Discs would be a nice upgrade but all of my drum parts are new.  Just have
> not been able to get a good pedal.  Pump the crap out of them and it will
> lock the rear wheels but nothing on the front with two different master
> cylinders.  If Grant's backwards but logical method doesn't work I am going
> to try an OE German master cylinder and bleed again, hopefully with better
> results.
> 
> Mike
> On Sep 5, 2011 9:13 AM, "Max Dillon"  wrote:
>> You need some disc brake parts from a Porch of the same era, Roger knows
> where one is...
>> 
>> Max (learned to drive on cars with drum brakes)
>> --
>> Sent from my Android phone with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.
>> 
>> Michael Canfield  wrote:
>> 
>> Grant,
>> Brilliant idea. I have a VW Bug that runs about 12.5 seconds in the1/4
>> mile but seems to take a 1/2 mile to stop after replacing every brake part
>> and going through gallons of brake fluid trying different methods of
>> bleeding. I am going to the parts store asap to get the oil pump can and I
>> am certain your method will finally get the job done.
>> 
>> Thanks, Mike
>> Who wishes he had mines big enough to park his M37's in.
>> On Sep 4, 2011 7:27 PM, "G Mann"  wrote:
>>> Over the past 40 years I have owned, I believe, every pressure bleed
> brake
>>> system, vacuum bleed system, and every other crackpot tool invented to
>> bleed
>>> brakes. They now all reside on my tool collection board of tools that
> cost
>>> loads of money, don't work well [or not at all] and "I would never buy
>>> again.
>>> 
>>> Some years ago I started using a system that DOES work well, Doesn't cost
>>> much, and so far hasn't failed me. It allows me to bleed both hydraulic
>>> clutch systems and brake systems without a helper, truly one man. Since I
>>> started using it, I now change out the hydraulic fluids as a regular
>>> scheduled item.
>>> 
>>> Here is how it works for me:
>>> 
>>> 1. Open the master cylinder cover, lay a clean cloth over it [stray
>>> dirt/bugs/etc are forbidden]
>>> 
>>> 2.
>>> Hook a common squeeze bulb [like you siphon gas into your lawn mower
> with]
>>> to the bleed nipple farthest from the master cylinder [play with fuel
> line
>>> hose sizes to get it done for your particular application]... drop the
>> exit
>>> hose into a receiving container [you are going to dispose of it right?]
> If
>>> you already have a hand vacuum pump with a receiver bottle... that can
>> work
>>> as well.
>>> 
>>> 3. Squeeze pump the old fluid out of the master cylinder till it's empty,
>>> repeat operation 2. for each bleed nipple to evacuate each line from the
>>> master to wheel cylinder.
>>> 
>>> 4. Wipe clean all the "gunk" left inside the Master Cylinder. [I often
> use
>>> spray brake cleen at this point to get all the slime, then carefully dry
>> it
>>> out]
>>> 
>>> 5. Using an old fashioned metal hand pump oil can [like your grandfather
>>> had... they are still available... cost maybe $5... and never use it for
>>> oil... just this] fill it with brake fluid.. attach a properly sized
>> length
>>> of fuel hose to the squirt tube and the other end to the brake bleed
>> nipple.
>>> I like to use a generous length here so I can work outside the wheel
>> instead
>>> of under the car...
>>> 
>>> 6. Lay the cover loosely over the Master Cylinder.. [CAUTION.. if you do
>> not
>>> do this you will have brake fluid where you do not want it,, plus a mess
>> to
>>> clean up]
>>> 
>>> 7. Start pumping brake fluid backwards from the nipple... to the master
>>> cylinder... start at the longest line run first... WATCH FOR FLUID AT THE
>>> MASTER CYLINDER... it will come nicely.. DO NOT fill the master from only
>>> one nipple
>>> 
>>> 8. Go to the next longest line.. pump brake fluid same way... increase
>> fluid
>>> amount in Master cylinder... go to next longest.. etc etc...
>>> 
>>> 9. Of course, close each nipple when you are done pumping at that
> station.
>>> Top off the Master Cylinder to required level...
>>> 
>>> 10. Brakes are now bled... all air has been pushed from lowest point to
>>> highest point.. a direction of travel that follows laws of nature and
>>> physics..
>>> 
>>> Total cost for tools... something less than $15. System how has clean
>> fluid
>>> from top to bottom... SHMBO has not been disturbed or irritated with
> "pump
>>> it more" commands. [you know how well that is received... in summer heat
>> or
>>> winter cold right?]
>>> 
>>> CAUTION:.. DO NOT let the pump can run out of fluid. Check the Master
>>> Cylinder often, [ie. don't over fill

Re: [MBZ] Brake Bleeder

[Mitch Haley]

Michael Canfield wrote:

Hi Max,
  Discs would be a nice upgrade but all of my drum parts are new.  Just have
not been able to get a good pedal.  Pump the crap out of them and it will
lock the rear wheels but nothing on the front with two different master
cylinders.


Proportioning valve sending full pressure to the rears?

___
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For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com
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Re: [MBZ] Brake Bleeder

[Max Dillon]

That's my thought as well...

Max
-- 
Sent from my Android phone with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.

Mitch Haley  wrote:

Michael Canfield wrote:
> Hi Max,
> Discs would be a nice upgrade but all of my drum parts are new. Just have
> not been able to get a good pedal. Pump the crap out of them and it will
> lock the rear wheels but nothing on the front with two different master
> cylinders.

Proportioning valve sending full pressure to the rears?

_

http://www.okiebenz.com
For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com
To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/

To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com

___
http://www.okiebenz.com
For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com
To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/

To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com

Re: [MBZ] Brake Bleeder

[Michael Canfield]

Dan,
  I have bench bled 2 masters a dozen or more times.  I have checked, double
checked and checked again that the master could return all of the way and
has the proper clearance.  I have replaced the under the trunk lid reservoir
with a Volvo unit that snaps right on the top of the master cylinder.  I
have gravity bled, I have pumped the pedal til my leg was going to fall off,
I have vacuum bled, I have pressure bled and I have made sure the shoes are
adjusted as tight as they can be and STILL no luck.
On Sep 5, 2011 10:14 AM, "Dan Penoff"  wrote:
> Be sure to bleed the master cylinder before installing it.
>
> One other thing that I found really critical when it came to VW brakes
-make sure the clevis pin on the pedal is adjusted for 1-2mm clearance when
the pedal is at rest. If the piston in the master cylinder can't return all
the way you'll never get good pedal.
>
> Don't ask me how I know this...
>
> Dan
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Sep 5, 2011, at 10:02 AM, Michael Canfield  wrote:
>
>> Hi Max,
>> Discs would be a nice upgrade but all of my drum parts are new. Just have
>> not been able to get a good pedal. Pump the crap out of them and it will
>> lock the rear wheels but nothing on the front with two different master
>> cylinders. If Grant's backwards but logical method doesn't work I am
going
>> to try an OE German master cylinder and bleed again, hopefully with
better
>> results.
>>
>> Mike
>> On Sep 5, 2011 9:13 AM, "Max Dillon"  wrote:
>>> You need some disc brake parts from a Porch of the same era, Roger knows
>> where one is...
>>>
>>> Max (learned to drive on cars with drum brakes)
>>> --
>>> Sent from my Android phone with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.
>>>
>>> Michael Canfield  wrote:
>>>
>>> Grant,
>>> Brilliant idea. I have a VW Bug that runs about 12.5 seconds in the1/4
>>> mile but seems to take a 1/2 mile to stop after replacing every brake
part
>>> and going through gallons of brake fluid trying different methods of
>>> bleeding. I am going to the parts store asap to get the oil pump can and
I
>>> am certain your method will finally get the job done.
>>>
>>> Thanks, Mike
>>> Who wishes he had mines big enough to park his M37's in.
>>> On Sep 4, 2011 7:27 PM, "G Mann"  wrote:
 Over the past 40 years I have owned, I believe, every pressure bleed
>> brake
 system, vacuum bleed system, and every other crackpot tool invented to
>>> bleed
 brakes. They now all reside on my tool collection board of tools that
>> cost
 loads of money, don't work well [or not at all] and "I would never buy
 again.

 Some years ago I started using a system that DOES work well, Doesn't
cost
 much, and so far hasn't failed me. It allows me to bleed both hydraulic
 clutch systems and brake systems without a helper, truly one man. Since
I
 started using it, I now change out the hydraulic fluids as a regular
 scheduled item.

 Here is how it works for me:

 1. Open the master cylinder cover, lay a clean cloth over it [stray
 dirt/bugs/etc are forbidden]

 2.
 Hook a common squeeze bulb [like you siphon gas into your lawn mower
>> with]
 to the bleed nipple farthest from the master cylinder [play with fuel
>> line
 hose sizes to get it done for your particular application]... drop the
>>> exit
 hose into a receiving container [you are going to dispose of it right?]
>> If
 you already have a hand vacuum pump with a receiver bottle... that can
>>> work
 as well.

 3. Squeeze pump the old fluid out of the master cylinder till it's
empty,
 repeat operation 2. for each bleed nipple to evacuate each line from
the
 master to wheel cylinder.

 4. Wipe clean all the "gunk" left inside the Master Cylinder. [I often
>> use
 spray brake cleen at this point to get all the slime, then carefully
dry
>>> it
 out]

 5. Using an old fashioned metal hand pump oil can [like your
grandfather
 had... they are still available... cost maybe $5... and never use it
for
 oil... just this] fill it with brake fluid.. attach a properly sized
>>> length
 of fuel hose to the squirt tube and the other end to the brake bleed
>>> nipple.
 I like to use a generous length here so I can work outside the wheel
>>> instead
 of under the car...

 6. Lay the cover loosely over the Master Cylinder.. [CAUTION.. if you
do
>>> not
 do this you will have brake fluid where you do not want it,, plus a
mess
>>> to
 clean up]

 7. Start pumping brake fluid backwards from the nipple... to the master
 cylinder... start at the longest line run first... WATCH FOR FLUID AT
THE
 MASTER CYLINDER... it will come nicely.. DO NOT fill the master from
only
 one nipple

 8. Go to the next longest line.. pump brake fluid same way... increase
>>> fluid
 amount in Master cylinder... go to next longest.. etc etc...

 9. Of course, close each nipple when you are

Re: [MBZ] Brake Bleeder

[Walt Zarnoch]

My vote is a defective prop valve.

Walt
On Sep 5, 2011 11:55 AM, "Michael Canfield"  wrote:
> Dan,
> I have bench bled 2 masters a dozen or more times. I have checked, double
> checked and checked again that the master could return all of the way and
> has the proper clearance. I have replaced the under the trunk lid
reservoir
> with a Volvo unit that snaps right on the top of the master cylinder. I
> have gravity bled, I have pumped the pedal til my leg was going to fall
off,
> I have vacuum bled, I have pressure bled and I have made sure the shoes
are
> adjusted as tight as they can be and STILL no luck.
> On Sep 5, 2011 10:14 AM, "Dan Penoff"  wrote:
>> Be sure to bleed the master cylinder before installing it.
>>
>> One other thing that I found really critical when it came to VW brakes
> -make sure the clevis pin on the pedal is adjusted for 1-2mm clearance
when
> the pedal is at rest. If the piston in the master cylinder can't return
all
> the way you'll never get good pedal.
>>
>> Don't ask me how I know this...
>>
>> Dan
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>
>> On Sep 5, 2011, at 10:02 AM, Michael Canfield 
wrote:
>>
>>> Hi Max,
>>> Discs would be a nice upgrade but all of my drum parts are new. Just
have
>>> not been able to get a good pedal. Pump the crap out of them and it will
>>> lock the rear wheels but nothing on the front with two different master
>>> cylinders. If Grant's backwards but logical method doesn't work I am
> going
>>> to try an OE German master cylinder and bleed again, hopefully with
> better
>>> results.
>>>
>>> Mike
>>> On Sep 5, 2011 9:13 AM, "Max Dillon"  wrote:
 You need some disc brake parts from a Porch of the same era, Roger
knows
>>> where one is...

 Max (learned to drive on cars with drum brakes)
 --
 Sent from my Android phone with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.

 Michael Canfield  wrote:

 Grant,
 Brilliant idea. I have a VW Bug that runs about 12.5 seconds in the1/4
 mile but seems to take a 1/2 mile to stop after replacing every brake
> part
 and going through gallons of brake fluid trying different methods of
 bleeding. I am going to the parts store asap to get the oil pump can
and
> I
 am certain your method will finally get the job done.

 Thanks, Mike
 Who wishes he had mines big enough to park his M37's in.
 On Sep 4, 2011 7:27 PM, "G Mann"  wrote:
> Over the past 40 years I have owned, I believe, every pressure bleed
>>> brake
> system, vacuum bleed system, and every other crackpot tool invented to
 bleed
> brakes. They now all reside on my tool collection board of tools that
>>> cost
> loads of money, don't work well [or not at all] and "I would never buy
> again.
>
> Some years ago I started using a system that DOES work well, Doesn't
> cost
> much, and so far hasn't failed me. It allows me to bleed both
hydraulic
> clutch systems and brake systems without a helper, truly one man.
Since
> I
> started using it, I now change out the hydraulic fluids as a regular
> scheduled item.
>
> Here is how it works for me:
>
> 1. Open the master cylinder cover, lay a clean cloth over it [stray
> dirt/bugs/etc are forbidden]
>
> 2.
> Hook a common squeeze bulb [like you siphon gas into your lawn mower
>>> with]
> to the bleed nipple farthest from the master cylinder [play with fuel
>>> line
> hose sizes to get it done for your particular application]... drop the
 exit
> hose into a receiving container [you are going to dispose of it
right?]
>>> If
> you already have a hand vacuum pump with a receiver bottle... that can
 work
> as well.
>
> 3. Squeeze pump the old fluid out of the master cylinder till it's
> empty,
> repeat operation 2. for each bleed nipple to evacuate each line from
> the
> master to wheel cylinder.
>
> 4. Wipe clean all the "gunk" left inside the Master Cylinder. [I often
>>> use
> spray brake cleen at this point to get all the slime, then carefully
> dry
 it
> out]
>
> 5. Using an old fashioned metal hand pump oil can [like your
> grandfather
> had... they are still available... cost maybe $5... and never use it
> for
> oil... just this] fill it with brake fluid.. attach a properly sized
 length
> of fuel hose to the squirt tube and the other end to the brake bleed
 nipple.
> I like to use a generous length here so I can work outside the wheel
 instead
> of under the car...
>
> 6. Lay the cover loosely over the Master Cylinder.. [CAUTION.. if you
> do
 not
> do this you will have brake fluid where you do not want it,, plus a
> mess
 to
> clean up]
>
> 7. Start pumping brake fluid backwards from the nipple... to the
master
> cylinder... start at the longest line run first... WATCH FOR FLUID AT
> THE
> MASTER CYLINDER... it will come nicely.. DO NOT fill the maste

Re: [MBZ] Brake Bleeder

[Allan Streib]

I honestly think there is some voodoo involved in bleeding and adjusting
VW brakes.  Have you tried sacrificing a chicken under a full moon??

Allan

Michael Canfield  writes:

> Dan,
>   I have bench bled 2 masters a dozen or more times.  I have checked, double
> checked and checked again that the master could return all of the way and
> has the proper clearance.  I have replaced the under the trunk lid reservoir
> with a Volvo unit that snaps right on the top of the master cylinder.  I
> have gravity bled, I have pumped the pedal til my leg was going to fall off,
> I have vacuum bled, I have pressure bled and I have made sure the shoes are
> adjusted as tight as they can be and STILL no luck.
> On Sep 5, 2011 10:14 AM, "Dan Penoff"  wrote:
>> Be sure to bleed the master cylinder before installing it.
>>
>> One other thing that I found really critical when it came to VW brakes
> -make sure the clevis pin on the pedal is adjusted for 1-2mm clearance when
> the pedal is at rest. If the piston in the master cylinder can't return all
> the way you'll never get good pedal.
>>
>> Don't ask me how I know this...
>>
>> Dan
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>
>> On Sep 5, 2011, at 10:02 AM, Michael Canfield  wrote:
>>
>>> Hi Max,
>>> Discs would be a nice upgrade but all of my drum parts are new. Just have
>>> not been able to get a good pedal. Pump the crap out of them and it will
>>> lock the rear wheels but nothing on the front with two different master
>>> cylinders. If Grant's backwards but logical method doesn't work I am
> going
>>> to try an OE German master cylinder and bleed again, hopefully with
> better
>>> results.
>>>
>>> Mike
>>> On Sep 5, 2011 9:13 AM, "Max Dillon"  wrote:
 You need some disc brake parts from a Porch of the same era, Roger knows
>>> where one is...

 Max (learned to drive on cars with drum brakes)
 --
 Sent from my Android phone with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.

 Michael Canfield  wrote:

 Grant,
 Brilliant idea. I have a VW Bug that runs about 12.5 seconds in the1/4
 mile but seems to take a 1/2 mile to stop after replacing every brake
> part
 and going through gallons of brake fluid trying different methods of
 bleeding. I am going to the parts store asap to get the oil pump can and
> I
 am certain your method will finally get the job done.

 Thanks, Mike
 Who wishes he had mines big enough to park his M37's in.
 On Sep 4, 2011 7:27 PM, "G Mann"  wrote:
> Over the past 40 years I have owned, I believe, every pressure bleed
>>> brake
> system, vacuum bleed system, and every other crackpot tool invented to
 bleed
> brakes. They now all reside on my tool collection board of tools that
>>> cost
> loads of money, don't work well [or not at all] and "I would never buy
> again.
>
> Some years ago I started using a system that DOES work well, Doesn't
> cost
> much, and so far hasn't failed me. It allows me to bleed both hydraulic
> clutch systems and brake systems without a helper, truly one man. Since
> I
> started using it, I now change out the hydraulic fluids as a regular
> scheduled item.
>
> Here is how it works for me:
>
> 1. Open the master cylinder cover, lay a clean cloth over it [stray
> dirt/bugs/etc are forbidden]
>
> 2.
> Hook a common squeeze bulb [like you siphon gas into your lawn mower
>>> with]
> to the bleed nipple farthest from the master cylinder [play with fuel
>>> line
> hose sizes to get it done for your particular application]... drop the
 exit
> hose into a receiving container [you are going to dispose of it right?]
>>> If
> you already have a hand vacuum pump with a receiver bottle... that can
 work
> as well.
>
> 3. Squeeze pump the old fluid out of the master cylinder till it's
> empty,
> repeat operation 2. for each bleed nipple to evacuate each line from
> the
> master to wheel cylinder.
>
> 4. Wipe clean all the "gunk" left inside the Master Cylinder. [I often
>>> use
> spray brake cleen at this point to get all the slime, then carefully
> dry
 it
> out]
>
> 5. Using an old fashioned metal hand pump oil can [like your
> grandfather
> had... they are still available... cost maybe $5... and never use it
> for
> oil... just this] fill it with brake fluid.. attach a properly sized
 length
> of fuel hose to the squirt tube and the other end to the brake bleed
 nipple.
> I like to use a generous length here so I can work outside the wheel
 instead
> of under the car...
>
> 6. Lay the cover loosely over the Master Cylinder.. [CAUTION.. if you
> do
 not
> do this you will have brake fluid where you do not want it,, plus a
> mess
 to
> clean up]
>
> 7. Start pumping brake fluid backwards from the nipple... to the master
> cylinder... start at the longest line run first... WATC

Re: [MBZ] Brake Bleeder

[LWB250]

I would agree with this statement.  Of the many VWs I owned over the years, I 
can recall that getting the braking system to work 100% was pure serendipity.

Dan



From: Allan Streib 
To: Mercedes Discussion List 
Sent: Monday, September 5, 2011 12:11 PM
Subject: Re: [MBZ] Brake Bleeder

I honestly think there is some voodoo involved in bleeding and adjusting
VW brakes.  Have you tried sacrificing a chicken under a full moon??

Allan

Michael Canfield  writes:

> Dan,
>   I have bench bled 2 masters a dozen or more times.  I have checked, double
> checked and checked again that the master could return all of the way and
> has the proper clearance.  I have replaced the under the trunk lid reservoir
> with a Volvo unit that snaps right on the top of the master cylinder.  I
> have gravity bled, I have pumped the pedal til my leg was going to fall off,
> I have vacuum bled, I have pressure bled and I have made sure the shoes are
> adjusted as tight as they can be and STILL no luck.
> On Sep 5, 2011 10:14 AM, "Dan Penoff"  wrote:
>> Be sure to bleed the master cylinder before installing it.
>>
>> One other thing that I found really critical when it came to VW brakes
> -make sure the clevis pin on the pedal is adjusted for 1-2mm clearance when
> the pedal is at rest. If the piston in the master cylinder can't return all
> the way you'll never get good pedal.
>>
>> Don't ask me how I know this...
>>
>> Dan
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>
>> On Sep 5, 2011, at 10:02 AM, Michael Canfield  wrote:
>>
>>> Hi Max,
>>> Discs would be a nice upgrade but all of my drum parts are new. Just have
>>> not been able to get a good pedal. Pump the crap out of them and it will
>>> lock the rear wheels but nothing on the front with two different master
>>> cylinders. If Grant's backwards but logical method doesn't work I am
> going
>>> to try an OE German master cylinder and bleed again, hopefully with
> better
>>> results.
>>>
>>> Mike
>>> On Sep 5, 2011 9:13 AM, "Max Dillon"  wrote:
>>>> You need some disc brake parts from a Porch of the same era, Roger knows
>>> where one is...
>>>>
>>>> Max (learned to drive on cars with drum brakes)
>>>> --
>>>> Sent from my Android phone with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.
>>>>
>>>> Michael Canfield  wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Grant,
>>>> Brilliant idea. I have a VW Bug that runs about 12.5 seconds in the1/4
>>>> mile but seems to take a 1/2 mile to stop after replacing every brake
> part
>>>> and going through gallons of brake fluid trying different methods of
>>>> bleeding. I am going to the parts store asap to get the oil pump can and
> I
>>>> am certain your method will finally get the job done.
>>>>
>>>> Thanks, Mike
>>>> Who wishes he had mines big enough to park his M37's in.
>>>> On Sep 4, 2011 7:27 PM, "G Mann"  wrote:
>>>>> Over the past 40 years I have owned, I believe, every pressure bleed
>>> brake
>>>>> system, vacuum bleed system, and every other crackpot tool invented to
>>>> bleed
>>>>> brakes. They now all reside on my tool collection board of tools that
>>> cost
>>>>> loads of money, don't work well [or not at all] and "I would never buy
>>>>> again.
>>>>>
>>>>> Some years ago I started using a system that DOES work well, Doesn't
> cost
>>>>> much, and so far hasn't failed me. It allows me to bleed both hydraulic
>>>>> clutch systems and brake systems without a helper, truly one man. Since
> I
>>>>> started using it, I now change out the hydraulic fluids as a regular
>>>>> scheduled item.
>>>>>
>>>>> Here is how it works for me:
>>>>>
>>>>> 1. Open the master cylinder cover, lay a clean cloth over it [stray
>>>>> dirt/bugs/etc are forbidden]
>>>>>
>>>>> 2.
>>>>> Hook a common squeeze bulb [like you siphon gas into your lawn mower
>>> with]
>>>>> to the bleed nipple farthest from the master cylinder [play with fuel
>>> line
>>>>> hose sizes to get it done for your particular application]... drop the
>>>> exit
>>>>> hose into a receiving container [you are going to dispose of it right?]
>>> If
>>>>> you already have a hand vacuum p

Re: [MBZ] Brake Bleeder

[Michael Canfield]

No proportioning valve on a Bug.

Mike
On Sep 5, 2011 10:20 AM, "Mitch Haley"  wrote:
> Michael Canfield wrote:
>> Hi Max,
>> Discs would be a nice upgrade but all of my drum parts are new. Just have
>> not been able to get a good pedal. Pump the crap out of them and it will
>> lock the rear wheels but nothing on the front with two different master
>> cylinders.
>
> Proportioning valve sending full pressure to the rears?
>
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Re: [MBZ] Brake Bleeder

[Walt Zarnoch]

Might be time to add one then?

Sounds like the master isn't sized right for the wheel cylinders, or you got
cylinders that were too big a diameter for the front.

Walt
On Sep 5, 2011 12:44 PM, "Michael Canfield"  wrote:
> No proportioning valve on a Bug.
>
> Mike
> On Sep 5, 2011 10:20 AM, "Mitch Haley"  wrote:
>> Michael Canfield wrote:
>>> Hi Max,
>>> Discs would be a nice upgrade but all of my drum parts are new. Just
have
>>> not been able to get a good pedal. Pump the crap out of them and it will
>>> lock the rear wheels but nothing on the front with two different master
>>> cylinders.
>>
>> Proportioning valve sending full pressure to the rears?
>>
>> ___
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>> For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com
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>>
>> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
>> http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
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Re: [MBZ] Brake Bleeder

[Michael Canfield]

I have yet to try the chicken but I have done some serious "chanting" at it
to no avail.  I have found that older Bugs have residual pressure valves
fitted to the master cylinder so that the return springs do not pull the
shoes back too far from the drum.  Mine does not have these but does have
mechanical adjusters that should do the same job.  They do, however put low
residual pressure valves on buggys that have a mc lower than the caliper or
drum to keep the fluid from running back to the mc.  I should not need that
but if I can't get them right I am ready to try about anything.

Mike
On Sep 5, 2011 12:13 PM, "Allan Streib"  wrote:
> I honestly think there is some voodoo involved in bleeding and adjusting
> VW brakes. Have you tried sacrificing a chicken under a full moon??
>
> Allan
>
> Michael Canfield  writes:
>
>> Dan,
>> I have bench bled 2 masters a dozen or more times. I have checked, double
>> checked and checked again that the master could return all of the way and
>> has the proper clearance. I have replaced the under the trunk lid
reservoir
>> with a Volvo unit that snaps right on the top of the master cylinder. I
>> have gravity bled, I have pumped the pedal til my leg was going to fall
off,
>> I have vacuum bled, I have pressure bled and I have made sure the shoes
are
>> adjusted as tight as they can be and STILL no luck.
>> On Sep 5, 2011 10:14 AM, "Dan Penoff"  wrote:
>>> Be sure to bleed the master cylinder before installing it.
>>>
>>> One other thing that I found really critical when it came to VW brakes
>> -make sure the clevis pin on the pedal is adjusted for 1-2mm clearance
when
>> the pedal is at rest. If the piston in the master cylinder can't return
all
>> the way you'll never get good pedal.
>>>
>>> Don't ask me how I know this...
>>>
>>> Dan
>>>
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>
>>> On Sep 5, 2011, at 10:02 AM, Michael Canfield 
wrote:
>>>
 Hi Max,
 Discs would be a nice upgrade but all of my drum parts are new. Just
have
 not been able to get a good pedal. Pump the crap out of them and it
will
 lock the rear wheels but nothing on the front with two different master
 cylinders. If Grant's backwards but logical method doesn't work I am
>> going
 to try an OE German master cylinder and bleed again, hopefully with
>> better
 results.

 Mike
 On Sep 5, 2011 9:13 AM, "Max Dillon"  wrote:
> You need some disc brake parts from a Porch of the same era, Roger
knows
 where one is...
>
> Max (learned to drive on cars with drum brakes)
> --
> Sent from my Android phone with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.
>
> Michael Canfield  wrote:
>
> Grant,
> Brilliant idea. I have a VW Bug that runs about 12.5 seconds in the1/4
> mile but seems to take a 1/2 mile to stop after replacing every brake
>> part
> and going through gallons of brake fluid trying different methods of
> bleeding. I am going to the parts store asap to get the oil pump can
and
>> I
> am certain your method will finally get the job done.
>
> Thanks, Mike
> Who wishes he had mines big enough to park his M37's in.
> On Sep 4, 2011 7:27 PM, "G Mann"  wrote:
>> Over the past 40 years I have owned, I believe, every pressure bleed
 brake
>> system, vacuum bleed system, and every other crackpot tool invented
to
> bleed
>> brakes. They now all reside on my tool collection board of tools that
 cost
>> loads of money, don't work well [or not at all] and "I would never
buy
>> again.
>>
>> Some years ago I started using a system that DOES work well, Doesn't
>> cost
>> much, and so far hasn't failed me. It allows me to bleed both
hydraulic
>> clutch systems and brake systems without a helper, truly one man.
Since
>> I
>> started using it, I now change out the hydraulic fluids as a regular
>> scheduled item.
>>
>> Here is how it works for me:
>>
>> 1. Open the master cylinder cover, lay a clean cloth over it [stray
>> dirt/bugs/etc are forbidden]
>>
>> 2.
>> Hook a common squeeze bulb [like you siphon gas into your lawn mower
 with]
>> to the bleed nipple farthest from the master cylinder [play with fuel
 line
>> hose sizes to get it done for your particular application]... drop
the
> exit
>> hose into a receiving container [you are going to dispose of it
right?]
 If
>> you already have a hand vacuum pump with a receiver bottle... that
can
> work
>> as well.
>>
>> 3. Squeeze pump the old fluid out of the master cylinder till it's
>> empty,
>> repeat operation 2. for each bleed nipple to evacuate each line from
>> the
>> master to wheel cylinder.
>>
>> 4. Wipe clean all the "gunk" left inside the Master Cylinder. [I
often
 use
>> spray brake cleen at this point to get all the slime, then carefully
>> dry
> it
>> out]
>>
>> 5. Using an old fashioned metal hand p

Re: [MBZ] Brake Bleeder

[Fred Moir]

Alles.
Of the VW brake repair methods mentioned, one is missing.
Contouring the shoe to the curve of the drum. We did this (many moons 
ago) at the dealership as part of a complete brake job.
From what was written there is no bypass in the M/cyl., no air in the 
system, and the shoes have been "adjusted" to just dragging.
The only thing left is too much movement in the shoe to drum action, 
hence the contouring.

YMMV

Fred Moir
Lynn MA
Diesel preferred


On 9/5/2011 12:44 PM, Michael Canfield wrote:

No proportioning valve on a Bug.

Mike
On Sep 5, 2011 10:20 AM, "Mitch Haley"  wrote:
   

Michael Canfield wrote:
 

Hi Max,
Discs would be a nice upgrade but all of my drum parts are new. Just have
not been able to get a good pedal. Pump the crap out of them and it will
lock the rear wheels but nothing on the front with two different master
cylinders.
   

Proportioning valve sending full pressure to the rears?


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Re: [MBZ] Brake Bleeder

[Craig]

On Mon, 5 Sep 2011 12:47:07 -0400 Walt Zarnoch 
wrote:

> Might be time to add one then?
> 
> Sounds like the master isn't sized right for the wheel cylinders, or
> you got cylinders that were too big a diameter for the front.

Wouldn't that be to small a diameter for the front? The force exerted by
the cylinder is the area of the piston times the pressure in the system.


Craig

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Re: [MBZ] Brake Bleeder

[Max Dillon]

My '63 Beetle exhibited all kinds of odd steering and braking problems when the 
rear shocks were bad, I wonder if your rear shocks are allowing too much weight 
transfer to the front which contributes to locking up the rear brakes?

Max
-- 
Sent from my Android phone with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.

Walt Zarnoch  wrote:

Might be time to add one then?

Sounds like the master isn't sized right for the wheel cylinders, or you got
cylinders that were too big a diameter for the front.

Walt
On Sep 5, 2011 12:44 PM, "Michael Canfield"  wrote:
> No proportioning valve on a Bug.
>
> Mike
> On Sep 5, 2011 10:20 AM, "Mitch Haley"  wrote:
>> Michael Canfield wrote:
>>> Hi Max,
>>> Discs would be a nice upgrade but all of my drum parts are new. Just
have
>>> not been able to get a good pedal. Pump the crap out of them and it will
>>> lock the rear wheels but nothing on the front with two different master
>>> cylinders.
>>
>> Proportioning valve sending full pressure to the rears?
>>
>>_

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>>
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>> http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
>_

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Re: [MBZ] Brake Bleeder

[Walt Zarnoch]

Larger suurface area means more volume needing to be filled.

If the rears are smaller than the front, they need less fluid to move the
same distance, so they lock before the fronts.

The force exerted might be less in the rear, but when the rears lock, the
front won't get enough fluid to do much.

Walt
On Sep 5, 2011 12:59 PM, "Craig"  wrote:
> On Mon, 5 Sep 2011 12:47:07 -0400 Walt Zarnoch 
> wrote:
>
>> Might be time to add one then?
>>
>> Sounds like the master isn't sized right for the wheel cylinders, or
>> you got cylinders that were too big a diameter for the front.
>
> Wouldn't that be to small a diameter for the front? The force exerted by
> the cylinder is the area of the piston times the pressure in the system.
>
>
> Craig
>
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Re: [MBZ] Brake Bleeder

[G Mann]

There is one other thing to look at before you sacrifice the poor chicken.

Ok,, maybe two.. First, wheel cylinder condition?  is one or both of them
stuck?
Second: Is the pressure line open to front cylinders? Flex lines in good
shape? I once had a flex line degrade internally that would block it's self
when pressure was applied... drove me almost mad.

On Mon, Sep 5, 2011 at 9:58 AM, Fred Moir  wrote:

> Alles.
> Of the VW brake repair methods mentioned, one is missing.
> Contouring the shoe to the curve of the drum. We did this (many moons ago)
> at the dealership as part of a complete brake job.
> From what was written there is no bypass in the M/cyl., no air in the
> system, and the shoes have been "adjusted" to just dragging.
> The only thing left is too much movement in the shoe to drum action, hence
> the contouring.
> YMMV
>
> Fred Moir
> Lynn MA
> Diesel preferred
>
>
> On 9/5/2011 12:44 PM, Michael Canfield wrote:
>
>> No proportioning valve on a Bug.
>>
>> Mike
>> On Sep 5, 2011 10:20 AM, "Mitch Haley"  wrote:
>>
>>
>>> Michael Canfield wrote:
>>>
>>>
 Hi Max,
 Discs would be a nice upgrade but all of my drum parts are new. Just
 have
 not been able to get a good pedal. Pump the crap out of them and it will
 lock the rear wheels but nothing on the front with two different master
 cylinders.


>>> Proportioning valve sending full pressure to the rears?
>>>
>>
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Re: [MBZ] Brake Bleeder

[Michael Canfield]

I really think I am somehow not getting the air out of the whole system or I
have two faulty master cylinders.  Before I buy more parts or waste more
fluid I am going to pull the master cylinder apart and be sure the check
valve in the far end is not stuck.
  In reading on some vw specific sites it seems it may be my wisest choice
to buy an OE German master cylinder as the rebuilt ones are the most likely
to have the problems I am having.  I have NO pedal at all until I pump the
hell out of the brakes and then I can get the rears to lock.  I have taken
it off the road and it just sits now as I have been so frustrated with it.
It is way too quick and small to have marginal brakes.

Mike
On Sep 5, 2011 1:11 PM, "Walt Zarnoch"  wrote:
> Larger suurface area means more volume needing to be filled.
>
> If the rears are smaller than the front, they need less fluid to move the
> same distance, so they lock before the fronts.
>
> The force exerted might be less in the rear, but when the rears lock, the
> front won't get enough fluid to do much.
>
> Walt
> On Sep 5, 2011 12:59 PM, "Craig"  wrote:
>> On Mon, 5 Sep 2011 12:47:07 -0400 Walt Zarnoch 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Might be time to add one then?
>>>
>>> Sounds like the master isn't sized right for the wheel cylinders, or
>>> you got cylinders that were too big a diameter for the front.
>>
>> Wouldn't that be to small a diameter for the front? The force exerted by
>> the cylinder is the area of the piston times the pressure in the system.
>>
>>
>> Craig
>>
>> ___
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Re: [MBZ] Brake Bleeder

[Walt Zarnoch]

Prop valves are cheap.

Walt
On Sep 5, 2011 1:24 PM, "Michael Canfield"  wrote:
> I really think I am somehow not getting the air out of the whole system or
I
> have two faulty master cylinders. Before I buy more parts or waste more
> fluid I am going to pull the master cylinder apart and be sure the check
> valve in the far end is not stuck.
> In reading on some vw specific sites it seems it may be my wisest choice
> to buy an OE German master cylinder as the rebuilt ones are the most
likely
> to have the problems I am having. I have NO pedal at all until I pump the
> hell out of the brakes and then I can get the rears to lock. I have taken
> it off the road and it just sits now as I have been so frustrated with it.
> It is way too quick and small to have marginal brakes.
>
> Mike
> On Sep 5, 2011 1:11 PM, "Walt Zarnoch"  wrote:
>> Larger suurface area means more volume needing to be filled.
>>
>> If the rears are smaller than the front, they need less fluid to move the
>> same distance, so they lock before the fronts.
>>
>> The force exerted might be less in the rear, but when the rears lock, the
>> front won't get enough fluid to do much.
>>
>> Walt
>> On Sep 5, 2011 12:59 PM, "Craig"  wrote:
>>> On Mon, 5 Sep 2011 12:47:07 -0400 Walt Zarnoch 
>>> wrote:
>>>
 Might be time to add one then?

 Sounds like the master isn't sized right for the wheel cylinders, or
 you got cylinders that were too big a diameter for the front.
>>>
>>> Wouldn't that be to small a diameter for the front? The force exerted by
>>> the cylinder is the area of the piston times the pressure in the system.
>>>
>>>
>>> Craig
>>>
>>> ___
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Re: [MBZ] Brake Bleeder

[Michael Canfield]

Fred,
  I have even gone so far as to adjust the shoes as tight as they will go
and then bleed with no pedal at all until several pumps, then only a
little.  Frustrating.

Mike
On Sep 5, 2011 12:58 PM, "Fred Moir"  wrote:
> Alles.
> Of the VW brake repair methods mentioned, one is missing.
> Contouring the shoe to the curve of the drum. We did this (many moons
> ago) at the dealership as part of a complete brake job.
> From what was written there is no bypass in the M/cyl., no air in the
> system, and the shoes have been "adjusted" to just dragging.
> The only thing left is too much movement in the shoe to drum action,
> hence the contouring.
> YMMV
>
> Fred Moir
> Lynn MA
> Diesel preferred
>
>
> On 9/5/2011 12:44 PM, Michael Canfield wrote:
>> No proportioning valve on a Bug.
>>
>> Mike
>> On Sep 5, 2011 10:20 AM, "Mitch Haley" wrote:
>>
>>> Michael Canfield wrote:
>>>
 Hi Max,
 Discs would be a nice upgrade but all of my drum parts are new. Just
have
 not been able to get a good pedal. Pump the crap out of them and it
will
 lock the rear wheels but nothing on the front with two different master
 cylinders.

>>> Proportioning valve sending full pressure to the rears?
>
> ___
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Re: [MBZ] Brake Bleeder

[Craig]

On Mon, 5 Sep 2011 13:11:17 -0400 Walt Zarnoch 
wrote:

> Larger suurface area means more volume needing to be filled.
> 
> If the rears are smaller than the front, they need less fluid to move
> the same distance, so they lock before the fronts.
> 
> The force exerted might be less in the rear, but when the rears lock,
> the front won't get enough fluid to do much.

But the pressure in the system won't go up until the front cylinders are
pushing against something -- the pressure has to be the same throughout
the system. That is, of course, if the hydraulic lines are open throughout
the system. If they are not, which is why Grant had the idea of checking
the front flex lines, things will definitely be odd.


Craig

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Re: [MBZ] Brake Bleeder

[Mitch Haley]

Michael Canfield wrote:

I have NO pedal at all until I pump the
hell out of the brakes and then I can get the rears to lock.


Sounds like loose drum brakes to me. You flail at the pedal and you can pump the 
shoes out faster than they can retract.


Don't ask me why, once you get pressure, the fronts still don't work, unless the 
two outputs from the M/C are split front/rear and the rears hit the drums first.


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Re: [MBZ] Brake Bleeder

[Michael Canfield]

No.  New performance shocks all around.  Coilovers in the rear and no weight
to speak of in the front to make it dive.  I actually can't get the brakes
to work well enough to induce divelol.

Mike
On Sep 5, 2011 12:59 PM, "Max Dillon"  wrote:
> My '63 Beetle exhibited all kinds of odd steering and braking problems
when the rear shocks were bad, I wonder if your rear shocks are allowing too
much weight transfer to the front which contributes to locking up the rear
brakes?
>
> Max
> --
> Sent from my Android phone with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.
>
> Walt Zarnoch  wrote:
>
> Might be time to add one then?
>
> Sounds like the master isn't sized right for the wheel cylinders, or you
got
> cylinders that were too big a diameter for the front.
>
> Walt
> On Sep 5, 2011 12:44 PM, "Michael Canfield"  wrote:
>> No proportioning valve on a Bug.
>>
>> Mike
>> On Sep 5, 2011 10:20 AM, "Mitch Haley"  wrote:
>>> Michael Canfield wrote:
 Hi Max,
 Discs would be a nice upgrade but all of my drum parts are new. Just
> have
 not been able to get a good pedal. Pump the crap out of them and it
will
 lock the rear wheels but nothing on the front with two different master
 cylinders.
>>>
>>> Proportioning valve sending full pressure to the rears?
>>>
>>>_
>
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Re: [MBZ] Brake Bleeder

[Craig]

On Mon, 5 Sep 2011 13:29:36 -0400 Michael Canfield 
wrote:

> Fred,
>   I have even gone so far as to adjust the shoes as tight as they will
> go and then bleed with no pedal at all until several pumps, then only a
> little.  Frustrating.

It, then, is definitely a hydraulic problem. From your previous email,
you need to take a good hard look at the master cylinder. Are the rubber
seals put in in the correct direction? When I rebuilt a cylinder for a
Willys Utility Wagon, I put the seals in in what seemed to be the correct
direction but was wrong. It caused the brakes to not release fully. Other
errors could cause other symptoms.

BTW, Rusty can get parts for a lot more marques than just Mercedes.


Craig

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Re: [MBZ] Brake Bleeder

[Michael Canfield]

I got wheel cylinders listed for the car from CB Performance.  They were
identical to the leaky ones that were on the car.  All of the original steel
lines are in perfect condition and pass fluid easily.  All of the rubber
lines have been replaced with new.

Mike
On Sep 5, 2011 1:02 PM, "Walt Zarnoch"  wrote:
> Might be time to add one then?
>
> Sounds like the master isn't sized right for the wheel cylinders, or you
got
> cylinders that were too big a diameter for the front.
>
> Walt
> On Sep 5, 2011 12:44 PM, "Michael Canfield"  wrote:
>> No proportioning valve on a Bug.
>>
>> Mike
>> On Sep 5, 2011 10:20 AM, "Mitch Haley"  wrote:
>>> Michael Canfield wrote:
 Hi Max,
 Discs would be a nice upgrade but all of my drum parts are new. Just
> have
 not been able to get a good pedal. Pump the crap out of them and it
will
 lock the rear wheels but nothing on the front with two different master
 cylinders.
>>>
>>> Proportioning valve sending full pressure to the rears?
>>>
>>> ___
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Re: [MBZ] Brake Bleeder

[Walt Zarnoch]

Well, I'm wrong in this case.
I'm used to disc/drum split systems and disc/disc split systems.

If it's all one loop, then yes, smaller up front would cause the rear to
grab.

Walt, who learns something new each day.
On Sep 5, 2011 1:30 PM, "Craig"  wrote:
> On Mon, 5 Sep 2011 13:11:17 -0400 Walt Zarnoch 
> wrote:
>
>> Larger suurface area means more volume needing to be filled.
>>
>> If the rears are smaller than the front, they need less fluid to move
>> the same distance, so they lock before the fronts.
>>
>> The force exerted might be less in the rear, but when the rears lock,
>> the front won't get enough fluid to do much.
>
> But the pressure in the system won't go up until the front cylinders are
> pushing against something -- the pressure has to be the same throughout
> the system. That is, of course, if the hydraulic lines are open throughout
> the system. If they are not, which is why Grant had the idea of checking
> the front flex lines, things will definitely be odd.
>
>
> Craig
>
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Re: [MBZ] Brake Bleeder

[Craig]

On Mon, 5 Sep 2011 13:36:06 -0400 Michael Canfield 
wrote:

> I got wheel cylinders listed for the car from CB Performance.  They were
> identical to the leaky ones that were on the car.  All of the original
> steel lines are in perfect condition and pass fluid easily.  All of the
> rubber lines have been replaced with new.

How did you check that the steel lines, "pass fluid easily"? A
restriction due to rust would cause slow response to the components
connected beyond the restriction.

Your having to pump like crazy and then getting only a little brake
action still points to the master cylinder, though.


Craig

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Re: [MBZ] Brake Bleeder

[Michael Canfield]

Thought the same thing about the rubber lines.  All are brand new.  Of
course so is everything else but hust because it is brand new obviously does
not mean that it is any good.

I can make MG Midget brakes work right but not a Bug?

Mike
Who is about to put the 150hp engine from the bug into an 800 pound rail
buggy and fix the brakes when I get around to it.
On Sep 5, 2011 1:15 PM, "G Mann"  wrote:
> There is one other thing to look at before you sacrifice the poor chicken.
>
> Ok,, maybe two.. First, wheel cylinder condition? is one or both of them
> stuck?
> Second: Is the pressure line open to front cylinders? Flex lines in good
> shape? I once had a flex line degrade internally that would block it's
self
> when pressure was applied... drove me almost mad.
>
> On Mon, Sep 5, 2011 at 9:58 AM, Fred Moir  wrote:
>
>> Alles.
>> Of the VW brake repair methods mentioned, one is missing.
>> Contouring the shoe to the curve of the drum. We did this (many moons
ago)
>> at the dealership as part of a complete brake job.
>> From what was written there is no bypass in the M/cyl., no air in the
>> system, and the shoes have been "adjusted" to just dragging.
>> The only thing left is too much movement in the shoe to drum action,
hence
>> the contouring.
>> YMMV
>>
>> Fred Moir
>> Lynn MA
>> Diesel preferred
>>
>>
>> On 9/5/2011 12:44 PM, Michael Canfield wrote:
>>
>>> No proportioning valve on a Bug.
>>>
>>> Mike
>>> On Sep 5, 2011 10:20 AM, "Mitch Haley" wrote:
>>>
>>>
 Michael Canfield wrote:


> Hi Max,
> Discs would be a nice upgrade but all of my drum parts are new. Just
> have
> not been able to get a good pedal. Pump the crap out of them and it
will
> lock the rear wheels but nothing on the front with two different
master
> cylinders.
>
>
 Proportioning valve sending full pressure to the rears?

>>>
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Re: [MBZ] Brake Bleeder

[Fred Moir]

Fronts are 2 leading shoe, rears are one leading, one trailing.

Fred Moir
Lynn MA
Diesel preferred


On 9/5/2011 1:11 PM, Walt Zarnoch wrote:

Larger suurface area means more volume needing to be filled.

If the rears are smaller than the front, they need less fluid to move the
same distance, so they lock before the fronts.

The force exerted might be less in the rear, but when the rears lock, the
front won't get enough fluid to do much.

Walt
On Sep 5, 2011 12:59 PM, "Craig"  wrote:
   

On Mon, 5 Sep 2011 12:47:07 -0400 Walt Zarnoch
wrote:

 

Might be time to add one then?

Sounds like the master isn't sized right for the wheel cylinders, or
you got cylinders that were too big a diameter for the front.
   

Wouldn't that be to small a diameter for the front? The force exerted by
the cylinder is the area of the piston times the pressure in the system.


Craig

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Re: [MBZ] Brake Bleeder

[Allan Streib]

Michael Canfield  writes:

> I have NO pedal at all until I pump the
> hell out of the brakes and then I can get the rears to lock.

Sounds exactly like my '72 VW Super Beetle (my first car).

Allan
-- 
1983 300D
1979 300SD

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Re: [MBZ] Brake Bleeder

[Michael Canfield]

It is a drum/drum split.  One line goes to the rear and two to the front
directly off from the dual circuit m/c.  The more and more I think about I
must just have bad luck and have two faulty master cylinders.  Time for an
OE one when I get time.

Mike
On Sep 5, 2011 1:36 PM, "Walt Zarnoch"  wrote:
> Well, I'm wrong in this case.
> I'm used to disc/drum split systems and disc/disc split systems.
>
> If it's all one loop, then yes, smaller up front would cause the rear to
> grab.
>
> Walt, who learns something new each day.
> On Sep 5, 2011 1:30 PM, "Craig"  wrote:
>> On Mon, 5 Sep 2011 13:11:17 -0400 Walt Zarnoch 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Larger suurface area means more volume needing to be filled.
>>>
>>> If the rears are smaller than the front, they need less fluid to move
>>> the same distance, so they lock before the fronts.
>>>
>>> The force exerted might be less in the rear, but when the rears lock,
>>> the front won't get enough fluid to do much.
>>
>> But the pressure in the system won't go up until the front cylinders are
>> pushing against something -- the pressure has to be the same throughout
>> the system. That is, of course, if the hydraulic lines are open
throughout
>> the system. If they are not, which is why Grant had the idea of checking
>> the front flex lines, things will definitely be odd.
>>
>>
>> Craig
>>
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Re: [MBZ] Brake Bleeder

[Allan Streib]

Michael Canfield  writes:

> It is a drum/drum split.  One line goes to the rear and two to the front
> directly off from the dual circuit m/c.  The more and more I think about I
> must just have bad luck and have two faulty master cylinders.  Time for an
> OE one when I get time.

Bench bleed the new MC carefully.  Put a block of wood under the pedal
to prevent it from bottoming out.  I've seen master cylinder seals
ruined by just one or two pumps of the pedal all the way to the floor.

Allan

-- 
1983 300D
1979 300SD

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Re: [MBZ] Brake Bleeder

[Michael Canfield]

That is why I may have the check valve stuck open.  I bench bleed the in a
vise before they go on the car and again, by hand on the pedal once on the
car.  I do recall though, that both new m/c's were stuck and required enough
force to get them unstuck that the plunger may have travelled past it's
proper range.  I will find out when I dissect it.

Mike
On Sep 5, 2011 1:51 PM, "Allan Streib"  wrote:
> Michael Canfield  writes:
>
>> It is a drum/drum split. One line goes to the rear and two to the front
>> directly off from the dual circuit m/c. The more and more I think about I
>> must just have bad luck and have two faulty master cylinders. Time for an
>> OE one when I get time.
>
> Bench bleed the new MC carefully. Put a block of wood under the pedal
> to prevent it from bottoming out. I've seen master cylinder seals
> ruined by just one or two pumps of the pedal all the way to the floor.
>
> Allan
>
> --
> 1983 300D
> 1979 300SD
>
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Re: [MBZ] Brake Bleeder

[Michael Canfield]

If there was a restriction in the line I would be able to get the pedal to
build up but still have no brakes.  I can't even get a good pedal at all.  I
have blown air through all of the lines.  This is a southern car and has no
rust.

Mike
On Sep 5, 2011 2:02 PM, "Craig"  wrote:
> On Mon, 5 Sep 2011 13:36:06 -0400 Michael Canfield 
> wrote:
>
>> I got wheel cylinders listed for the car from CB Performance. They were
>> identical to the leaky ones that were on the car. All of the original
>> steel lines are in perfect condition and pass fluid easily. All of the
>> rubber lines have been replaced with new.
>
> How did you check that the steel lines, "pass fluid easily"? A
> restriction due to rust would cause slow response to the components
> connected beyond the restriction.
>
> Your having to pump like crazy and then getting only a little brake
> action still points to the master cylinder, though.
>
>
> Craig
>
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Re: [MBZ] Brake Bleeder

[Mitch Haley]

Fred Moir wrote:

Fronts are 2 leading shoe, rears are one leading, one trailing.


2 leading shoe, with a single hydraulic cylinder, would require an interesting 
linkage. I bet there's some rather exact adjusting/tuning involved.


Back in the days of brake cables, motorcycle front brakes were double leading 
shoe, with an adjustable length rod connecting the two cams that operated the 
shoes. Things got interesting when you stopped on a hill and found out that 
going backwards, you had a double trailing shoe front brake, and couldn't apply 
the rear brake with your feet on the ground.


Mitch.

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Re: [MBZ] Brake Bleeder

[Fmiser]

> Michael Canfield wrote:

> Dan,
>   I have bench bled 2 masters a dozen or more times.  I have
> checked, double checked and checked again that the master
> could return all of the way and has the proper clearance.  I
> have replaced the under the trunk lid reservoir with a Volvo
> unit that snaps right on the top of the master cylinder.  I
> have gravity bled, I have pumped the pedal til my leg was
> going to fall off, I have vacuum bled, I have pressure bled
> and I have made sure the shoes are adjusted as tight as they
> can be and STILL no luck.

I suspect you have been through all this already... :)

But are you sure the problem is air in the line?

It the pedal firm, but not enough stopping force?  That would
suggest a problem other than air in the line.

Maybe a restricted (clogged) hard line or proportioning valve?

Ah - if the back brakes lock - could the proportioning valve be
in "backwards"?  That is, low force back brake port connected to
the front?

Is the pedal soft?  Maybe weak hoses at the wheels that are
expanding with the pressure.

--  Philip, playing armchair mechanic

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Re: [MBZ] Brake Bleeder

[Michael Canfield]

Phillip,
  Thanks but I have covered all of those bases.

Mike
On Sep 5, 2011 2:12 PM, "Fmiser"  wrote:
>> Michael Canfield wrote:
>
>> Dan,
>> I have bench bled 2 masters a dozen or more times. I have
>> checked, double checked and checked again that the master
>> could return all of the way and has the proper clearance. I
>> have replaced the under the trunk lid reservoir with a Volvo
>> unit that snaps right on the top of the master cylinder. I
>> have gravity bled, I have pumped the pedal til my leg was
>> going to fall off, I have vacuum bled, I have pressure bled
>> and I have made sure the shoes are adjusted as tight as they
>> can be and STILL no luck.
>
> I suspect you have been through all this already... :)
>
> But are you sure the problem is air in the line?
>
> It the pedal firm, but not enough stopping force? That would
> suggest a problem other than air in the line.
>
> Maybe a restricted (clogged) hard line or proportioning valve?
>
> Ah - if the back brakes lock - could the proportioning valve be
> in "backwards"? That is, low force back brake port connected to
> the front?
>
> Is the pedal soft? Maybe weak hoses at the wheels that are
> expanding with the pressure.
>
> -- Philip, playing armchair mechanic
>
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Re: [MBZ] Brake Bleeder

[Mountain Man]

Allan wrote:
> I honestly think there is some voodoo involved in bleeding and adjusting
> VW brakes.  Have you tried sacrificing a chicken under a full moon??

Here's a video of Eezibleed on an ancient VW:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lz8t6ZkVSQM

Does anyone else use Eezibleed?
mao

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Re: [MBZ] Brake Bleeder

[Mountain Man]

As is mentioned in the video, first step is to check reservoir for leaks.
On W123 best to purchase new rubber caps on the reservoir.  I didn't
once and made a mess.
Here is the USA distributor:
http://www.autoexpertproducts.com/eezibleed.htm
mao

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Re: [MBZ] Brake Bleeder

[MG]

Why not put the disk setup from a Karmann Ghia in the front and 
put the front cylinders and shoes on the rear brakes. I did that 
on an old 69 bug and got very good braking action. Almost too 
good as when it was wet the fronts would tend to lock up a bit 
before the rear under moderate braking but when it was dry the 
thing would stop on a dime.


Manfred


Date: Mon, 5 Sep 2011 13:33:24 -0400
From: Michael Canfield 
To: Mercedes Discussion List 
Subject: Re: [MBZ] Brake Bleeder

No.  New performance shocks all around.  Coilovers in the rear 
and no weight
to speak of in the front to make it dive.  I actually can't get 
the brakes

to work well enough to induce divelol.


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Re: [MBZ] Brake Bleeder

[LWB250]

The post king pin front suspension swap of KG bits to a Beetle chassis was 
pretty common.  As soon as a donor KG would come into the Pick 'n Pull these 
woudl be the first things to go...

Dan




From: MG 
To: Mercedes Discussion List 
Sent: Monday, September 5, 2011 10:27 PM
Subject: Re: [MBZ] Brake Bleeder

Why not put the disk setup from a Karmann Ghia in the front and put the front 
cylinders and shoes on the rear brakes. I did that on an old 69 bug and got 
very good braking action. Almost too good as when it was wet the fronts would 
tend to lock up a bit before the rear under moderate braking but when it was 
dry the thing would stop on a dime.

Manfred


Date: Mon, 5 Sep 2011 13:33:24 -0400
From: Michael Canfield 
To: Mercedes Discussion List 
Subject: Re: [MBZ] Brake Bleeder

No.  New performance shocks all around.  Coilovers in the rear and no weight
to speak of in the front to make it dive.  I actually can't get the brakes
to work well enough to induce divelol.


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Re: [MBZ] Brake Bleeder

[Hans Neureiter]

Have replaced the hoses? Old brake hoses tend to swell and close up.

On Mon, Sep 5, 2011 at 10:49 AM, Michael Canfield wrote:

> Dan,
>  I have bench bled 2 masters a dozen or more times.  I have checked, double
> checked and checked again that the master could return all of the way and
> has the proper clearance.  I have replaced the under the trunk lid
> reservoir
> with a Volvo unit that snaps right on the top of the master cylinder.  I
> have gravity bled, I have pumped the pedal til my leg was going to fall
> off,
> I have vacuum bled, I have pressure bled and I have made sure the shoes are
> adjusted as tight as they can be and STILL no luck.
>
-- 
Hans Neureiter, Katy, TX
'82 300SD
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Re: [MBZ] Brake Bleeder

[MG]

Yup I was lucky to find one in 75 when my wife bumped a tree that 
jumped out in front of the car as she was going down the 
driveway. Bent the torsion tubes on the front so it was time to 
do the job right and get some good brakes on the thing. Uh Bug, 
not Thing.


Manfred



Date: Mon, 5 Sep 2011 19:33:29 -0700 (PDT)
From: LWB250 
Subject: Re: [MBZ] Brake Bleeder


The post king pin front suspension swap of KG bits to a Beetle 
chassis was pretty common. ?As soon as a donor KG would come into 
the Pick 'n Pull these woudl be the first things to go...


Dan


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Re: [MBZ] Brake Bleeder

[Michael Canfield]

The entire brake system is new.  Lines, shoes, springs, everything.

Mike
On Sep 6, 2011 7:01 AM, "Hans Neureiter"  wrote:
> Have replaced the hoses? Old brake hoses tend to swell and close up.
>
> On Mon, Sep 5, 2011 at 10:49 AM, Michael Canfield wrote:
>
>> Dan,
>> I have bench bled 2 masters a dozen or more times. I have checked, double
>> checked and checked again that the master could return all of the way and
>> has the proper clearance. I have replaced the under the trunk lid
>> reservoir
>> with a Volvo unit that snaps right on the top of the master cylinder. I
>> have gravity bled, I have pumped the pedal til my leg was going to fall
>> off,
>> I have vacuum bled, I have pressure bled and I have made sure the shoes
are
>> adjusted as tight as they can be and STILL no luck.
>>
> --
> Hans Neureiter, Katy, TX
> '82 300SD
> ___
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Re: [MBZ] Brake Bleeder

[G Mann]

Have a look at wheel cylinder function with the brake hubs off.  Have
someone push the brake peddle while you watch the wheel cylinders actually
move. If they don't, there is your problem rather than a new master
cylinder. While you have them off, and the master cyl. off, blow compressed
air through the line to clear any blockage if you have one.

Stuck wheel cylinders will bleed out fine, look normal, but not push the
shoe against the drum...and drive you crazyJust a thought,, you may have
already done it.

Grant...

On Tue, Sep 6, 2011 at 6:03 AM, Michael Canfield wrote:

> The entire brake system is new.  Lines, shoes, springs, everything.
>
> Mike
> On Sep 6, 2011 7:01 AM, "Hans Neureiter"  wrote:
> > Have replaced the hoses? Old brake hoses tend to swell and close up.
> >
> > On Mon, Sep 5, 2011 at 10:49 AM, Michael Canfield  >wrote:
> >
> >> Dan,
> >> I have bench bled 2 masters a dozen or more times. I have checked,
> double
> >> checked and checked again that the master could return all of the way
> and
> >> has the proper clearance. I have replaced the under the trunk lid
> >> reservoir
> >> with a Volvo unit that snaps right on the top of the master cylinder. I
> >> have gravity bled, I have pumped the pedal til my leg was going to fall
> >> off,
> >> I have vacuum bled, I have pressure bled and I have made sure the shoes
> are
> >> adjusted as tight as they can be and STILL no luck.
> >>
> > --
> > Hans Neureiter, Katy, TX
> > '82 300SD
> > ___
> > http://www.okiebenz.com
> > For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com
> > To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/
> >
> > To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
> > http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
> ___
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>
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>
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Re: [MBZ] Brake Bleeder

[Michael Canfield]

Already done it.  Problem is I am getting no pedal.  Goes straight to the
floor.  Seems like the master cylinder isn't doing anything until you pump
the crap out of it and then there is barely any pedal, goes within an inch
of the floor, and only back brakes.  I can apply more pressure to the rears
with the e brake than the pedal.  It barely builds enough pressure to
trigger the brake light switch.  I have replaced everything there is to
replace so it is pretty annoying just throwing cash at it even though the
parts are very inexpensive compared to most cars.

Thanks all,

Mike
On Sep 6, 2011 9:12 AM, "G Mann"  wrote:
> Have a look at wheel cylinder function with the brake hubs off. Have
> someone push the brake peddle while you watch the wheel cylinders actually
> move. If they don't, there is your problem rather than a new master
> cylinder. While you have them off, and the master cyl. off, blow
compressed
> air through the line to clear any blockage if you have one.
>
> Stuck wheel cylinders will bleed out fine, look normal, but not push the
> shoe against the drum...and drive you crazyJust a thought,, you may
have
> already done it.
>
> Grant...
>
> On Tue, Sep 6, 2011 at 6:03 AM, Michael Canfield wrote:
>
>> The entire brake system is new. Lines, shoes, springs, everything.
>>
>> Mike
>> On Sep 6, 2011 7:01 AM, "Hans Neureiter"  wrote:
>> > Have replaced the hoses? Old brake hoses tend to swell and close up.
>> >
>> > On Mon, Sep 5, 2011 at 10:49 AM, Michael Canfield > >wrote:
>> >
>> >> Dan,
>> >> I have bench bled 2 masters a dozen or more times. I have checked,
>> double
>> >> checked and checked again that the master could return all of the way
>> and
>> >> has the proper clearance. I have replaced the under the trunk lid
>> >> reservoir
>> >> with a Volvo unit that snaps right on the top of the master cylinder.
I
>> >> have gravity bled, I have pumped the pedal til my leg was going to
fall
>> >> off,
>> >> I have vacuum bled, I have pressure bled and I have made sure the
shoes
>> are
>> >> adjusted as tight as they can be and STILL no luck.
>> >>
>> > --
>> > Hans Neureiter, Katy, TX
>> > '82 300SD
>> > ___
>> > http://www.okiebenz.com
>> > For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com
>> > To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/
>> >
>> > To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
>> > http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
>> ___
>> http://www.okiebenz.com
>> For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com
>> To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/
>>
>> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
>> http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
>>
> ___
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Re: [MBZ] Brake Bleeder

[Mitch Haley]

Michael Canfield wrote:

Already done it.  Problem is I am getting no pedal.


If you pull a drum off, does the wheel cylinder move visibly on the first stroke 
of the pedal?


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Re: [MBZ] Brake Bleeder

[Michael Canfield]

No.

Mike
On Sep 6, 2011 9:50 AM, "Mitch Haley"  wrote:
> Michael Canfield wrote:
>> Already done it. Problem is I am getting no pedal.
>
> If you pull a drum off, does the wheel cylinder move visibly on the first
stroke
> of the pedal?
>
> ___
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Re: [MBZ] Brake Bleeder

[Mitch Haley]

Michael Canfield wrote:

No.


So, either there's something compressible in the circuit (air), or the M/C 
didn't pump anything. If fanning the pedal gets you some results eventually, 
then it seems like the M/C is pumping something.


You say you've bled it many times, do you get air when you bleed?

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Re: [MBZ] Brake Bleeder

[Mitch Haley]

Oh, one last stupid question.
The wheel cyclinders are installed with the bleeders on top, right?
If you install the right wheel cylinder in the left brake, it'll be impossible 
to bleed the air out of the cylinder.


Mitch Haley wrote:

So, either there's something compressible in the circuit (air), or the 
M/C didn't pump anything. If fanning the pedal gets you some results 
eventually, then it seems like the M/C is pumping something.


You say you've bled it many times, do you get air when you bleed?



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Re: [MBZ] Brake Bleeder

[Dan Penoff]

IIRC, VW wheel cylinders are interchangeable between sides.

Dan

Sent from my iPhone

On Sep 6, 2011, at 11:02 AM, Mitch Haley  wrote:

> Oh, one last stupid question.
> The wheel cyclinders are installed with the bleeders on top, right?
> If you install the right wheel cylinder in the left brake, it'll be 
> impossible to bleed the air out of the cylinder.
> 
> Mitch Haley wrote:
> 
>> So, either there's something compressible in the circuit (air), or the M/C 
>> didn't pump anything. If fanning the pedal gets you some results eventually, 
>> then it seems like the M/C is pumping something.
>> You say you've bled it many times, do you get air when you bleed?
> 
> 
> ___
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Re: [MBZ] Brake Bleeder

[Curt Raymond]

The problem is that most inexpensive Bug parts are cheap crap.

Google R.S. Hoover although you may have to resort to "the other Bob Hoover". 
You're looking for the VW guy. He wrote a lot on the lousy parts quality 
available for VWs and sadly he was writing that 10 or more years ago and things 
have not improved.

-Curt

Date: Tue, 6 Sep 2011 09:39:09 -0400
From: Michael Canfield 
To: Mercedes Discussion List 
Subject: Re: [MBZ] Brake Bleeder
Message-ID:

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

Already done it.  Problem is I am getting no pedal.  Goes straight to the
floor.  Seems like the master cylinder isn't doing anything until you pump
the crap out of it and then there is barely any pedal, goes within an inch
of the floor, and only back brakes.  I can apply more pressure to the rears
with the e brake than the pedal.  It barely builds enough pressure to
trigger the brake light switch.  I have replaced everything there is to
replace so it is pretty annoying just throwing cash at it even though the
parts are very inexpensive compared to most cars.

Thanks all,

Mike

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Re: [MBZ] Brake Bleeder

[MG]

Are you sure that you have the large cylinders on the front and 
the shoes on the right way? Short shoe to the front.


Manfred



Date: Tue, 6 Sep 2011 09:03:38 -0400
From: Michael Canfield 
Subject: Re: [MBZ] Brake Bleeder

The entire brake system is new.  Lines, shoes, springs, everything.

Mike

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Re: [MBZ] Brake Bleeder

[OK Don]

It's not that un-common to get a batch of defective re-built parts. If the
FLAPS got one, the whole batch is likely to be bad. Go for the good master
cylinder.



-- 
OK Don
2001 ML320
1992 300D 2.5T
1990 300D 2.5T
1997 Plymouth Grand Voyager
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Re: [MBZ] Brake Bleeder

[Michael Canfield]

Parts store quality for VW's is below the bottom of the barrel.  I should
have known I couldn't get away with a reman m/c on a bug, especially one, or
two, from Advance Auto.  I ordered all of my parts except the M/C from CB
Performance, used to be Claude's Buggies for the older VW folk.  They are
known for quality parts and great service.

Mike
On Sep 6, 2011 2:39 PM, "Curt Raymond"  wrote:
> The problem is that most inexpensive Bug parts are cheap crap.
>
> Google R.S. Hoover although you may have to resort to "the other Bob
Hoover". You're looking for the VW guy. He wrote a lot on the lousy parts
quality available for VWs and sadly he was writing that 10 or more years ago
and things have not improved.
>
> -Curt
>
> Date: Tue, 6 Sep 2011 09:39:09 -0400
> From: Michael Canfield 
> To: Mercedes Discussion List 
> Subject: Re: [MBZ] Brake Bleeder
> Message-ID:
> 
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>
> Already done it. Problem is I am getting no pedal. Goes straight to the
> floor. Seems like the master cylinder isn't doing anything until you pump
> the crap out of it and then there is barely any pedal, goes within an inch
> of the floor, and only back brakes. I can apply more pressure to the rears
> with the e brake than the pedal. It barely builds enough pressure to
> trigger the brake light switch. I have replaced everything there is to
> replace so it is pretty annoying just throwing cash at it even though the
> parts are very inexpensive compared to most cars.
>
> Thanks all,
>
> Mike
>
> ___
> http://www.okiebenz.com
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>
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Re: [MBZ] Brake Bleeder

[Michael Canfield]

Manfred,
  Yes, I am sure everything is installed the way it belongs.  I have gone
over each thing so many times thinking I must be missing something that I
had to shave my hair off to keep from pulling it out of my head in
frustration.

Thanks, Mike
On Sep 6, 2011 4:31 PM, "MG"  wrote:
> Are you sure that you have the large cylinders on the front and
> the shoes on the right way? Short shoe to the front.
>
> Manfred
>
>
>
> Date: Tue, 6 Sep 2011 09:03:38 -0400
> From: Michael Canfield 
> Subject: Re: [MBZ] Brake Bleeder
>
> The entire brake system is new. Lines, shoes, springs, everything.
>
> Mike
>
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Re: [MBZ] Brake Bleeder

[Allan Streib]

Not just VW.  I once got 3 bad MCs in a row from Pep Boys for a Toyota truck I 
used to own.  The fourth finally seemed to work.

"Lifetime Warranty" is all well and good, but in time (and brake fluid) I lost 
on that one.

Allan


On Wednesday, September 07, 2011 10:14 AM, "Michael Canfield" 
 wrote:
> Parts store quality for VW's is below the bottom of the barrel.  I should
> have known I couldn't get away with a reman m/c on a bug, especially one, or
> two, from Advance Auto.  I ordered all of my parts except the M/C from CB
> Performance, used to be Claude's Buggies for the older VW folk.  They are
> known for quality parts and great service.
> 
> Mike

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Re: [MBZ] Brake Bleeder

[Dan Penoff]

Heh.

That "lifetime warranty" marketing crap  is why we now use 3Com switches 
instead of Cisco. Rather than pay for a premium product that rarely fails, we 
now go out and just swap things out (2-3 times a year).

It's a crap shoot between the supplier and the customer. Make a substandard 
product that's cheap, and you can afford to give some away for the ones that 
fail.

Grrr.

Dan

Sent from my iPhone

On Sep 7, 2011, at 10:23 AM, "Allan Streib"  wrote:

> Not just VW.  I once got 3 bad MCs in a row from Pep Boys for a Toyota truck 
> I used to own.  The fourth finally seemed to work.
> 
> "Lifetime Warranty" is all well and good, but in time (and brake fluid) I 
> lost on that one.
> 
> Allan
> 
> 
> On Wednesday, September 07, 2011 10:14 AM, "Michael Canfield" 
>  wrote:
>> Parts store quality for VW's is below the bottom of the barrel.  I should
>> have known I couldn't get away with a reman m/c on a bug, especially one, or
>> two, from Advance Auto.  I ordered all of my parts except the M/C from CB
>> Performance, used to be Claude's Buggies for the older VW folk.  They are
>> known for quality parts and great service.
>> 
>> Mike
> 
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Re: [MBZ] Brake Bleeder

[Hans Neureiter]

Don't beat yourself up.
You have a bad M/C.
It's not that complicated.
You'r buying after market rebuilt crap for high $.
Go tu a junkyard, pull a set of 30 year old brake components and they will
work.
I had at least three VW bugs. Never a brake problem.
But when people start messing with "improvements" to a fundamentally basic
design, it gets mesy fast.



On Wed, Sep 7, 2011 at 9:17 AM, Michael Canfield wrote:

> Manfred,
>  Yes, I am sure everything is installed the way it belongs.  I have gone
> over each thing so many times thinking I must be missing something that I
> had to shave my hair off to keep from pulling it out of my head in
> frustration.
>
> --
> Hans Neureiter, Katy, TX
> '82 300SD
>
>
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Re: [MBZ] Brake Bleeder

[Allan Streib]

Hans Neureiter  writes:

> It's not that complicated.
> You'r buying after market rebuilt crap for high $.

Really, air-cooled VWs are still very popular and frequently restored
both for show and racing.

There *must* be sources for quality parts.  You just won't find them at
FLAPS, and it they won't be for FLAPS prices.

Allan
-- 
1983 300D
1979 300SD

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Re: [MBZ] Brake Bleeder

[Craig]

On Wed, 7 Sep 2011 10:47:12 -0400 Dan Penoff  wrote:

> On Sep 7, 2011, at 10:23 AM, "Allan Streib" 
> wrote:
> 
> > "Lifetime Warranty" is all well and good, but in time (and brake
> > fluid) I lost on that one.
>
> Heh.
> 
> That "lifetime warranty" marketing crap is why we now use 3Com switches
> instead of Cisco. Rather than pay for a premium product that rarely
> fails, we now go out and just swap things out (2-3 times a year).
>
> It's a crap shoot between the supplier and the customer. Make a
> substandard product that's cheap, and you can afford to give some away
> for the ones that fail.
>
> Grrr.

I'm not entirely sure what you're trying to say here.

I THINK you are saying you would rather get Cisco switches because they
rarely fail but your company (organization, ?) was sold a bill of goods
by 3Com about "lifetime warranty" and you now have a fair amount of extra
work replacing switches that go bad.


Craig

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Re: [MBZ] Brake Bleeder

[G Mann]

Years ago I ask a pretty crusty parts man in terms he would understand "Just
exactly what does Lifetime Guarantee mean?"   His response is one I've never
forgotten.. and I quote "If you ever bring this S*$xxx#(@*^%##@&&@@  back
through my door, I'll kill you"...

Cavaet` Emptor

On Wed, Sep 7, 2011 at 9:31 PM, Craig  wrote:

> On Wed, 7 Sep 2011 10:47:12 -0400 Dan Penoff  wrote:
>
> > On Sep 7, 2011, at 10:23 AM, "Allan Streib" 
> > wrote:
> >
> > > "Lifetime Warranty" is all well and good, but in time (and brake
> > > fluid) I lost on that one.
> >
> > Heh.
> >
> > That "lifetime warranty" marketing crap is why we now use 3Com switches
> > instead of Cisco. Rather than pay for a premium product that rarely
> > fails, we now go out and just swap things out (2-3 times a year).
> >
> > It's a crap shoot between the supplier and the customer. Make a
> > substandard product that's cheap, and you can afford to give some away
> > for the ones that fail.
> >
> > Grrr.
>
> I'm not entirely sure what you're trying to say here.
>
> I THINK you are saying you would rather get Cisco switches because they
> rarely fail but your company (organization, ?) was sold a bill of goods
> by 3Com about "lifetime warranty" and you now have a fair amount of extra
> work replacing switches that go bad.
>
>
> Craig
>
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>
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> http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
>
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Re: [MBZ] Brake Bleeder

[Dan Penoff]

Bingo.

Sorry if I was obtuse.

Dan

Sent from my iPhone

On Sep 8, 2011, at 12:31 AM, Craig  wrote:

> On Wed, 7 Sep 2011 10:47:12 -0400 Dan Penoff  wrote:
> 
>> On Sep 7, 2011, at 10:23 AM, "Allan Streib" 
>> wrote:
>> 
>>> "Lifetime Warranty" is all well and good, but in time (and brake
>>> fluid) I lost on that one.
>> 
>> Heh.
>> 
>> That "lifetime warranty" marketing crap is why we now use 3Com switches
>> instead of Cisco. Rather than pay for a premium product that rarely
>> fails, we now go out and just swap things out (2-3 times a year).
>> 
>> It's a crap shoot between the supplier and the customer. Make a
>> substandard product that's cheap, and you can afford to give some away
>> for the ones that fail.
>> 
>> Grrr.
> 
> I'm not entirely sure what you're trying to say here.
> 
> I THINK you are saying you would rather get Cisco switches because they
> rarely fail but your company (organization, ?) was sold a bill of goods
> by 3Com about "lifetime warranty" and you now have a fair amount of extra
> work replacing switches that go bad.
> 
> 
> Craig
> 
> ___
> http://www.okiebenz.com
> For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com
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> 
> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
> http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com

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Re: [MBZ] Brake Bleeder Questions

[G Mann]

Jerry,

I'll try to address your questions in as orderly fashion as possible.

1. Attach the squeeze bulb [or vacuum pump] to the nipple via a slip fit
rubber or plastic line.  It can be the cheap stuff ,, throw it away after
one use if you want. It just needs enough wall strength to withstand some
vacuum without collapse.  I like clear tubing because I can see what's
coming out of the nipple in real time.

2. The function of the vacuum out is to remove debris and old fluid in each
line.  If you wish you could add clean fluid to the master and vacuum more
to "flush" while you are hooked up anyway. No loss in doing that except a
bit of new fluid.

3. I evacuate each line from the nipple,, "while" emptying the master
cylinder.. sort of an "all in one operation".

4. The drying and wipe down after using brake clean is just a precaution to
ensure I have a "clean as possible" system with no foreign materials.

5. The hand pump oiler is actually well lubricated by the brake fluid, so it
needs nothing else.  They are surprisingly  well built and long lasting
I prefer the metal ones over plastic simply because they seem to be better
quality and pump with larger volume. Your choice on that however.  I use a
small spring hose clamp [like you find on fuel lines] to secure the line to
the spigot. Press fit to the nipple is sufficient.

6. If you have any contaminant in the lines it will show up in the master
cylinder as you pump fluid backwards.. if the fluid doesn't look clean and
new... vacuum again and flush the system... my experience is,, it will come
up clean first time.

HTH,

Grant...

On Mon, Sep 5, 2011 at 11:40 AM, Jerry Herrman  wrote:

> Grant,
>
> I am intrigued by your "reverse" method of brake bleeding. Got a couple of
> questions.
>
> Item #2.  a. Not sure exactly how you recommend the squeeze bulb be
> attached to the nipple in such a way as to evacuate the old fluid.
>
>  b.  If one end of the exit hose is in the receiver container,
> what is the other end attached to?
>  c.  Do you evacuate each line from the nipple at this stage,
> or do you first empty the master cylinder?
>
> item #4   a. If you use Brake Kleen in the master cylinder, do you need to
> be concerned that some of it may get down into the lines?
>
> item #5.  a. Do you need to be concerned that the metal hand pump oil can
> might contain even a miniscule amount to oil to lubricate the pumping
> mechanism, and that this could possibly contaminate the brake fluid?
>  b. Will the brake fluid, over time, corrode the inside of the
> pump oiler?  Would a plastic oiler be better?
>
> item #7. The fresh brake fluid that was squirted from the oil can into the
> the bleeder valve, and from there through the lines to the master cylinder,
> would not that have some contaminants that were picked up from flowing
> backwards through the brake lines?  Would it be a good idea to remove the
> contents one more time (a second time) from the master cylinder after
> "reverse flushing", and then fill with fresh fluid?
>
> Thanks again for the idea.
>
> Jerry
> 240D (and others)
>
>
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