Re: Like OpenBSD? Like to see new stuff happening? You really need to order a CD today :)
On 04/18/2011 04:39 PM, Bob Beck wrote: Hi all, A number of you may have noticed the recent flurry of activity, leading to stuff like bigmem being turned on.. Some more good stuff is coming soon (my amd64 at my house is using 7 gigabyes of memory for buffer cache, and I'm doing builds without touching disks..). Some really cool stuff is being worked on and is coming to a source tree near you soon. However, I'd like to take the opportunity to remind you all, that the project does depend on CD and shirt sales to keep it alive. Yes you may not use a CD all the time, but the latest one is pretty cool. So, short answer? go buy a CD. pre-orders are a little slow this release, and we need to see some more activity in that area. Then maybe I'll stop worrying about it and commit that thing that will make your amd64 use even more buttloads of memory too! So - yes we like donations, but we also like CD sales.. now is the time to help out. Thanks -Bob Will put down a pre-order for 4.9 ASAP. Thanks for the reminder, I'd kinda forgotten about doing it :-) Honestly, I never use to CDs. But I love to look at it on a shelf next to my PC knowing it means I contributed with something, even if it was just my small humble donation. And they're nice to collect :-) Cheers guys, and keep up the good work! :-)
Re: Like OpenBSD? Like to see new stuff happening? You really need to order a CD today :)
Benny Lofgren bl-li...@lofgren.biz wrote: On 2011-04-21 22.27, P. Pruett wrote: how about donate [snip] The reason for my initial suggestion, which was along the lines Rafal whom you commented also thought, was that a donation *ISN'T A FUCKING OPTION* where I and others live. The other thing is that, based on Theo's 18 April post, funds from donations (or going to the openbsd foundation) don't go into the same bucket as funds from CD sales. If I'm interested in putting my funds into the CD bucket, donations and contributions to the foundation don't get me there. Question, Theo: If I was to say the following, would it work without causing an unacceptable amount of work? My company wants to pay you to develop or fix feature (where feature is already on the short list of what is planned for the next release). It is worth value to us. If you're interested, send us an invoice (from either you personally or your corporation or other business entity) in some readily machine readable format (text file, spread sheet, pdf, it doesn't matter) that lists the amount and the feature. We'll send you the check immediately, and consider the deliverable complete when the *initial* version is committed. That deliverable is intented to be unobtrusive. It doesn't say that it *must* be in the next release. It also doesn't imply any sort of user acceptance test or support requirement. It allows for the possibility for you to pass the funds along and have another developer implement it. It is similar to other open source projects where a company might put up a bounty to have a certain feature implemented (other than in those cases, it is open to whomever grabs it first). So, does that take too much time away from development, or is for some other reason (tax, etc) unworkable? A possible valid response is, we don't care that it's going into the donation fund bucket rather than the CD fund bucket. A simple yes or no also suffices; a long explanation either way is not required. And for you undesirables out there: Unsolicited requests for funds will go into the bit bucket with all the other spam, so don't try. Not that you'll listen anyway. Devin
Re: Like OpenBSD? Like to see new stuff happening? You really need to order a CD today :)
On Sat, 23 Apr 2011 00:08:47 -0600 Devin Reade g...@gno.org wrote: Benny Lofgren bl-li...@lofgren.biz wrote: The reason for my initial suggestion, which was along the lines Rafal whom you commented also thought, was that a donation *ISN'T A FUCKING OPTION* where I and others live. It is worth value to us. If you're interested, send us an invoice (from either you personally or your corporation or other business entity) in some readily machine readable format (text file, spread sheet, pdf, it doesn't matter) that lists the amount Just to elaborate and add to this suggestion: In a lot (all?) of the European countries are donations by a company NOT tax deductible (as ranted before ;) ) The only possibility for them is to a) sponsor somebody, who then has to advertise etc. for them; there has to be some economic effect that is in relation to the amount b) hire a programmer, with all the legal side effects c) purchase something, but this requires a legally valid invoice according to the local law (e.g. a simple text file may not be valid!) d) donations are only possible to *accredited* organizations, and even then only a fraction can be deducted from taxes Note: I'm not a tax consultant, but I wanted to point out the problems that the finance department has when a company wants to give away money. Imho, as a company you should just buy the existing shop items from a local dealer (= invoice). kind regards, Robert
Re: Like OpenBSD? Like to see new stuff happening? You really need to order a CD today :)
On 23 April 2011 16:08, Devin Reade g...@gno.org wrote: Benny Lofgren bl-li...@lofgren.biz wrote: On 2011-04-21 22.27, P. Pruett wrote: how about donate [snip] The reason for my initial suggestion, which was along the lines Rafal whom you commented also thought, was that a donation *ISN'T A FUCKING OPTION* where I and others live. The other thing is that, based on Theo's 18 April post, funds from donations (or going to the openbsd foundation) don't go into the same bucket as funds from CD sales. If I'm interested in putting my funds into the CD bucket, donations and contributions to the foundation don't get me there. Question, Theo: If I was to say the following, would it work without causing an unacceptable amount of work? My company wants to pay you to develop or fix feature (where feature is already on the short list of what is planned for the next release). It is worth value to us. B If you're interested, send us an invoice (from either you personally or your corporation or other business entity) in some readily machine readable format (text file, spread sheet, pdf, it doesn't matter) that lists the amount and the feature. We'll send you the check immediately, and consider the deliverable complete when the *initial* version is committed. That deliverable is intented to be unobtrusive. B It doesn't say that it *must* be in the next release. B It also doesn't imply any sort of user acceptance test or support requirement. It allows for the possibility for you to pass the funds along and have another developer implement it. B It is similar to other open source projects where a company might put up a bounty to have a certain feature implemented (other than in those cases, it is open to whomever grabs it first). I have a different suggestion, which is simpler and would work for the corporate that I work for. Is it possible that the invoice gernerated by the sale of goodies from the website could be simplified and generic? I can get budget for a bunch of items from the store each release time, but it isn't possible to justify more than one cd set, and totally impossible to convince the CFO to spring for posters or shirts. But if the invoice simply said something like OpenBSD Goods and Services: $283.77, it would be paid without question. And then I could get whatever CD sets, books, posters or donations I planned when I got them to set the cash aside in the annual budget. And... I guess it would be some work, but shouldn't be much. And for the guys that still want to get the detailed and itemised invoice, then a simple tick box to select the preferred invoice woud be pretty simple. More work still, but again not much. I'd be *very* happy to volunteer to do said work if it was something people didn't think was stupid.
Re: Like OpenBSD? Like to see new stuff happening? You really need to order a CD today :)
On Sat, 23 Apr 2011 20:24:13 +1000 nuffnough wrote: but it isn't possible to justify more than one cd set, and totally impossible to convince the CFO to spring for posters or shirts. Have you tried a letter to your MD explaining the situation and asking for special instructions to your CFO and explaining what OpenBSD does for him and that other companies are doing similar to get an even higher return on investment and make your employees investment of time more effective etc.. Better to keep it above board than have questions asked if the company starts looking for ways to cut costs. p.s. writing the letter in your own time and making that clear may be more effective.
Re: Like OpenBSD? Like to see new stuff happening? You really need to order a CD today :)
On Sat, Apr 23, 2011 at 12:08:47AM -0600, Devin Reade wrote: Benny Lofgren bl-li...@lofgren.biz wrote: If I was to say the following, would it work without causing an unacceptable amount of work? My company wants to pay you to develop or fix feature (where feature is already on the short list of what is planned for the next release). It is worth value to us. If you're interested, send us an invoice (from either you personally or your corporation or other business entity) in some readily machine readable format (text file, spread sheet, pdf, it doesn't matter) that lists the amount and the feature. We'll send you the check immediately, and consider the deliverable complete when the *initial* version is committed. That deliverable is intented to be unobtrusive. It doesn't say that it *must* be in the next release. It also doesn't imply any sort of user acceptance test or support requirement. It allows for the possibility for you to pass the funds along and have another developer implement it. It is similar to other open source projects where a company might put up a bounty to have a certain feature implemented (other than in those cases, it is open to whomever grabs it first). Maybe I don't understand this question because I'm just a hobbyist user and not an employee whose company uses OBSD, so forgive me if I've misunderstood your intent. But isn't it an order of magnitude simply to follow the suggestion Marco/Benny put forth and purchase a bunch of CDs and make a note to ship only one (thus eliminating the waste of resources)? I think it's been stated amply that THESE GUYS DONT WANT TO BE BOTHERED with stuff that takes them away from writing code. -Scott
Re: Like OpenBSD? Like to see new stuff happening? You really need to order a CD today :)
On 23/04/11 19:19, Scott Stanley wrote: On Sat, Apr 23, 2011 at 12:08:47AM -0600, Devin Reade wrote: Benny Lofgrenbl-li...@lofgren.biz wrote: If I was to say the following, would it work without causing an unacceptable amount of work? My company wants to pay you to develop or fixfeature (wherefeature is already on the short list of what is planned for the next release). It is worthvalue to us. If you're interested, send us an invoice (from either you personally or your corporation or other business entity) in some readily machine readable format (text file, spread sheet, pdf, it doesn't matter) that lists the amount and the feature. We'll send you the check immediately, and consider the deliverable complete when the *initial* version is committed. That deliverable is intented to be unobtrusive. It doesn't say that it *must* be in the next release. It also doesn't imply any sort of user acceptance test or support requirement. It allows for the possibility for you to pass the funds along and have another developer implement it. It is similar to other open source projects where a company might put up a bounty to have a certain feature implemented (other than in those cases, it is open to whomever grabs it first). Maybe I don't understand this question because I'm just a hobbyist user and not an employee whose company uses OBSD, so forgive me if I've misunderstood your intent. But isn't it an order of magnitude simply to follow the suggestion Marco/Benny put forth and purchase a bunch of CDs and make a note to ship only one (thus eliminating the waste of resources)? I think it's been stated amply that THESE GUYS DONT WANT TO BE BOTHERED with stuff that takes them away from writing code. -Scott Apparently the OP wants to get his job as well funding the project. I would suggest his company to hire a programmer/developer to commit to the project. Giannis
Re: Like OpenBSD? Like to see new stuff happening? You really need to order a CD today :)
Kapetanakis Giannis bil...@edu.physics.uoc.gr wrote: On 23/04/11 19:19, Scott Stanley wrote: But isn't it an order of magnitude [simpler] to follow the suggestion Marco/Benny put forth and purchase a bunch of CDs and make a note to ship only one (thus eliminating the waste of resources)? What I haven't heard from the developers is, does the don't ship them aspect cause (tax/accounting/other) problems for either the project or the CD reseller? Apparently the OP wants to get his job as well funding the project. If you're referring to me, and if you meant trying to keep his job as well as funding ..., then hardly. I'm an independent consultant and consequently am both the CEO and only employee of my corporation. Any such contribution ultimately comes out of my own pocket, and doesn't contribute to me keeping my job. I don't have the cycles available to assist in OpenBSD development, and don't have the funds or inclination to hire an *employee* to do such work. I *was* saying that I'd consider paying the project for a specific feature, just as I may pay other professionals for a small chunk of their time for other projects (which would typically be fixed cost or time materials). (If I misinterpreted your comment, ignore the diatribe.) I was originally considering a donation to the foundation until the dual funding model was pointed out, and was suggesting an alternative that I was hoping would not be too onerous. If the buy 10 CDs, ship 1 model actually works for the developers, then yes it's an option. But I haven't actually heard a confirmation that it works. Devin -- It is far, far better to have a bastard in the family than an unemployed son-in-law. - Robert Heinlein
Re: Like OpenBSD? Like to see new stuff happening? You really need to order a CD today :)
On Sat, Apr 23, 2011 at 2:08 AM, Devin Reade g...@gno.org wrote: That deliverable is intented to be unobtrusive. It doesn't say that it *must* be in the next release. It also doesn't imply any sort of user acceptance test or support requirement. It allows * THE SOFTWARE IS PROVIDED AS IS AND THE AUTHOR DISCLAIMS ALL WARRANTIES * WITH REGARD TO THIS SOFTWARE INCLUDING ALL IMPLIED WARRANTIES OF * MERCHANTABILITY AND FITNESS. It is much harder to claim that there is no implied warranty (even with a piece of paper saying so) when you have money changing hands as part of a this for that transaction. Instead of trying to cheat the tax laws, now you are trying to cheat the consumer protection laws. The reason such laws exist, of course, is to prevent buyers from agreeing to exactly the terms you are proposing.
Re: Like OpenBSD? Like to see new stuff happening? You really need to order a CD today :)
The other thing is that, based on Theo's 18 April post, funds from donations (or going to the openbsd foundation) don't go into the same bucket as funds from CD sales. That is correct. There are a few different buckets, and they are spent in different ways for a variety of very good reasons. If I'm interested in putting my funds into the CD bucket, donations and contributions to the foundation don't get me there. That is correct, we do not mix the buckets. Question, Theo: If I was to say the following, would it work without causing an unacceptable amount of work? My company wants to pay you to develop or fix feature (where feature is already on the short list of what is planned for the next release). It is worth value to us. If you're interested, send us an invoice (from either you personally or your corporation or other business entity) in some readily machine readable format (text file, spread sheet, pdf, it doesn't matter) that lists the amount and the feature. We'll send you the check immediately, and consider the deliverable complete when the *initial* version is committed. There are developers in the project who are probably interested in work-for-hire. I, personally, cannot do that. I will not be a party to business. I am involved in the core project too much, and I make decisions related to donation funds. Therefore, I will not invoice. I also don't know of a company who wants to represent us and handle such transactions. However, did you know that some initial versions of some rather big plans have already been commited to the tree in the last few days (or the last few months, or the last few years) which would meet your terms. But I don't know where companies would pay for completion, and later have it benefit the project as a whole. Personally, I cannot be party to such a business transaction. Perhaps someone else can offer their services, but it won't be me. That deliverable is intented to be unobtrusive. It doesn't say that it *must* be in the next release. It also doesn't imply any sort of user acceptance test or support requirement. It allows for the possibility for you to pass the funds along and have another developer implement it. It is similar to other open source projects where a company might put up a bounty to have a certain feature implemented (other than in those cases, it is open to whomever grabs it first). You can minimize the terms all you want, but you are still asking developers in our group to make promises and then to organize into a business model. You are asking us to do more. I think I do more than enough and don't need to make promises to outsiders just to keep this project alive. I bet all the developers feel the same way. Is writing and giving code away not enough? Do we have to sell our souls as well? I will not setup conduits to save the project. Perhaps we must survive based on value. If we don't I suspect we won't be the only ones losing. So, does that take too much time away from development, or is for some other reason (tax, etc) unworkable? Certainly, it would take time away from development. Everything takes time away from development -- even replying to this mail. A possible valid response is, we don't care that it's going into the donation fund bucket rather than the CD fund bucket. A simple yes or no also suffices; a long explanation either way is not required. All the buckets can use money. The donation bucket tends to fund the hackathons -- those are primarily funded by the various donations schemes. The non-donation bucket tends to fund things which *cannot* be done out of donations, ie. keeping me in a job, real in-Canada operating expenses (electricity), my travel to hackathons (not out of donations), etc. With all these costs considered, that bucket also has to ensure that the whole operation of making and selling CD's and tshirts does not go into the red. If either bucket runs dry you'll be running another operating system about a year later. Currently, the non-donation bucket is suffering a whole lot more.
Re: Like OpenBSD? Like to see new stuff happening? You really need to order a CD today :)
If the buy 10 CDs, ship 1 model actually works for the developers, then yes it's an option. But I haven't actually heard a confirmation that it works. It works fine for us. There are a few orders like this every release. If this helps people cope with the need an invoice problem until we find a better way, please do it.
Re: Like OpenBSD? Like to see new stuff happening? You really need to order a CD today :)
I would suggest his company to hire a programmer/developer to commit to the project. I know developers who would be very happy to get contract work regarding specific ideas and current work they are already involved in (which will have a big impact on OpenBSD performance and functionality). Such contracts would put money into their pockets. It would also get the developer's pre-defined task done. I think I can speak for almost all of those people when I say they would rather just get paid to do the things they already have planned. Trust them; don't lay down a set of instructions. That match won't work. If those rules are played I will (for free, until it becomes too annoying :) hook up developers with those who want to fund them. Maybe upon completion such a developers might suddenly want to buy 50+ CDs with a part of their income (and then give instruction to only ship 1). It would work. It is crazy, of course.
Re: Like OpenBSD? Like to see new stuff happening? You really need to order a CD today :)
Maybe I don't understand this question because I'm just a hobbyist user and not an employee whose company uses OBSD, so forgive me if I've misunderstood your intent. But isn't it an order of magnitude simply to follow the suggestion Marco/Benny put forth and purchase a bunch of CDs and make a note to ship only one (thus eliminating the waste of resources)? I think it's been stated amply that THESE GUYS DONT WANT TO BE BOTHERED with stuff that takes them away from writing code. And the CDs which are not shipped can be sold to someone else.
Re: Like OpenBSD? Like to see new stuff happening? You really need to order a CD today :)
Theo de Raadt dera...@cvs.openbsd.org wrote: I think I do more than enough and don't need to make promises to outsiders just to keep this project alive. I bet all the developers feel the same way. Fair enough. Ignoring my particular case for the moment, I was trying to generalize the suggestion with the thought that most corporate sponsers would need at least a rudimentary, this is why we're spending the money, and that is how we know when we're done statement in their records. Not for you, but for themselves. As far as promises to outsiders is concerned, I hadn't intended that as any more than, when feature, which we were planning on doing anyway, is ready, I will promise to commit it. That they would have committed it anyway is IMO irrelevent. Do we have to sell our souls as well? Of course not. However I was under the impression that there was instances of funding in the past (DARPA? [at the risk of stirring up bad blood]), and thus figured that it was worth it to ask the question. I can't know in advance where in the spectrum someone sits between M$ and Stallman and what constitutes selling of one's soul, but thought my suggestion was a variation that hadn't been discussed (or at least not recently). That the answer (for Theo at least) is no is fine, and I can respect the reasons. The discussion has given me (and perhaps others) at least a couple of options for CD bucket contributions, and thanks for taking the time to clarify things. I'll start with ammending my outstanding CD order accordingly. Devin
Re: Like OpenBSD? Like to see new stuff happening? You really need to order a CD today :)
I think I do more than enough and don't need to make promises to outsiders just to keep this project alive. I bet all the developers feel the same way. Fair enough. Ignoring my particular case for the moment, I was trying to generalize the suggestion with the thought that most corporate sponsers would need at least a rudimentary, this is why we're spending the money, and that is how we know when we're done statement in their records. Not for you, but for themselves. As far as promises to outsiders is concerned, I hadn't intended that as any more than, when feature, which we were planning on doing anyway, is ready, I will promise to commit it. That they would have committed it anyway is IMO irrelevent. I know of work in various part of the tree that could do with funding. All of them will make OpenBSD run substantially faster. Features come with those, but speed is the essential benefit. So if anyone is truly interested contact me, and I will get you talking to the right people for specific tasks. The only thing I will do is make sure that noone's time is being wasted. However I was under the impression that there was instances of funding in the past (DARPA? [at the risk of stirring up bad blood]), Interesting you would bring that up. Under the DARPA grant (note the word) they gave us absolutely no rules or restrictions. We did not signed any paperwork regarding the tasks ahead of us (actually, I think I never signed anything at all :). We were funded, which released us from other worries, and then we performed the magic we were planning to do anyways. That the answer (for Theo at least) is no is fine, and I can respect the reasons. The discussion has given me (and perhaps others) at least a couple of options for CD bucket contributions, and thanks for taking the time to clarify things. I'll start with ammending my outstanding CD order accordingly. Kind of scary how the simplest approaches are... the simplest.
Re: Like OpenBSD? Like to see new stuff happening? You really need to order a CD today :)
This is simple, you are openbsd you are openbsd live;and love this live --Original Message-- From: Theo de Raadt Sender: owner-m...@openbsd.org To: Kapetanakis Giannis Cc: misc@openbsd.org Subject: Re: Like OpenBSD? Like to see new stuff happening? You really need to order a CD today :) Sent: Apr 23, 2011 8:27 PM I would suggest his company to hire a programmer/developer to commit to the project. I know developers who would be very happy to get contract work regarding specific ideas and current work they are already involved in (which will have a big impact on OpenBSD performance and functionality). Such contracts would put money into their pockets. It would also get the developer's pre-defined task done. I think I can speak for almost all of those people when I say they would rather just get paid to do the things they already have planned. Trust them; don't lay down a set of instructions. That match won't work. If those rules are played I will (for free, until it becomes too annoying :) hook up developers with those who want to fund them. Maybe upon completion such a developers might suddenly want to buy 50+ CDs with a part of their income (and then give instruction to only ship 1). It would work. It is crazy, of course. www.compumundohypermegared.org
Re: Like OpenBSD? Like to see new stuff happening? You really need to order a CD today :)
On Fri, Apr 22, 2011 at 12:16 AM, Sunnz sun...@gmail.com wrote: forget about multi-license, it is isc license and it doesn't really make sense to make them like ms volume license. but how hard would it be to provide an option for people to specify a different price for buying the cd? then you can pay $1000 for a cd if you want. -- g):g.1e /h2/g B )c f71h07e /e.9f04c sunnz.org There are $1000 cds there.
Re: Like OpenBSD? Like to see new stuff happening? You really need to order a CD today :)
On Thu, Apr 21, 2011 at 10:16 PM, Sunnz sun...@gmail.com wrote: forget about multi-license, it is isc license and it doesn't really make sense to make them like ms volume license. but how hard would it be to provide an option for people to specify a different price for buying the cd? then you can pay $1000 for a cd if you want. The tax laws of the country I live in are more than enough for me to willingly deal with, so I won't claim any expertise in the laws of other countries, but are the people making these suggestions cognizant of the various laws and regulations that tend to surround deductible business expense or whatever the nearest local equivalent is? Do you *really* think a pick your own price item is actually fully deductible in the eyes of a random local tax authority? Really? Enough to stake your own fortune and business on? Do you know the laws of other countries enough that your conscience lets you make that recommendation to people living elsewhere? If so, wow, what are you doing hanging out on this list instead of making big bucks in finance? If you want to make a contribution and having it be tax deductible is a significant concern or would result in an increase in the size of the donation, then contact the OpenBSD Foundation (and review your relevant tax laws and regulations). The Foundation exists, in part, so that these issues and concerns don't become an undue burden on people. Philip Guenther
Re: Like OpenBSD? Like to see new stuff happening? You really need to order a CD today :)
On Thu, Apr 21, 2011 at 11:55 PM, Paul M l...@no-tek.com wrote: Just order as many as you want and bin the excess. What really is being wasted?, A wee bit of plastic, traces of other materials and a small amount of energy used to produce it. A company that runs a big neon sign overnight is probably wasting more than that. Wow. That's probably the lamest reply i've seen in this thread. Everyone's wasting energy and dumping brand new things, so i should do it too! Landry
Re: Like OpenBSD? Like to see new stuff happening? You really need to order a CD today :)
On Thu, Apr 21, 2011 at 11:35:46PM -0700, Philip Guenther wrote: On Thu, Apr 21, 2011 at 10:16 PM, Sunnz sun...@gmail.com wrote: forget about multi-license, it is isc license and it doesn't really make sense to make them like ms volume license. but how hard would it be to provide an option for people to specify a different price for buying the cd? then you can pay $1000 for a cd if you want. The tax laws of the country I live in are more than enough for me to willingly deal with, so I won't claim any expertise in the laws of other countries, but are the people making these suggestions cognizant of the various laws and regulations that tend to surround deductible business expense or whatever the nearest local equivalent is? Do you *really* think a pick your own price item is actually fully deductible in the eyes of a random local tax authority? Really? Enough to stake your own fortune and business on? Do you know the laws of other countries enough that your conscience lets you make that recommendation to people living elsewhere? If so, wow, what are you doing hanging out on this list instead of making big bucks in finance? If you want to make a contribution and having it be tax deductible is a significant concern or would result in an increase in the size of the donation, then contact the OpenBSD Foundation (and review your relevant tax laws and regulations). The Foundation exists, in part, so that these issues and concerns don't become an undue burden on people. Please note that http://www.openbsdfoundation.org/ 1) is NOT a charitable organization and cannot itself provide tax relief; 2) is incorporated ONLY in Canada; 3) has NO PLANS to become a charitable organization or to expand its legal existance to other countries and in particular the US; 4) has NO staff that could handle many small transactions. 5) does NOT accept directed donations, i.e. spend this money on hackathon Y, or buy Theo a hat with this, or I'll give you $1,000,000 dollars to get Theo to put .NET into base. The OpenBSD Foundation exists solely as a vehicle to create the legal papertrail necessary for some donations. Especially corporate donations with accounting departments to mollify. So if your tax accountant or corporate bean counters need a piece of paper showing that an incorporated entity with a formally documented goal of supporting the OpenBSD project and related projects has received your significant chunk of money, then by all means contact us. But if you have brilliant ideas for marketing, directing Theo and other developers to do something, forcing Austin to run the business in a particular way, or want to donate $1, please do not contact us. Ken p.s. on the $1,000,000 to get Theo to put .NET into base, feel free to contact me offlist. My K street office would be happy to lobby Theo for as long as the money lasts. A stable of bespoke influencial developers would gather wherever he happened to stop and attempt to drink and hack until he agreed. We guarantee results or you get an apologetic phone call. Philip Guenther
Re: Like OpenBSD? Like to see new stuff happening? You really need to order a CD today :)
On Thu, 21 Apr 2011 17:49:20 -0500 J Sisson wrote: Order 1 with your shipping address, then order N - 1 with Richard Stallman's address. Problem solved. Order one Start another order with the delivery address of the shop your buying from.
Re: Like OpenBSD? Like to see new stuff happening? You really need to order a CD today :)
On 2011-04-22 6:35:46, Philip Guenther guenther () gmail ! com wrote: On Thu, Apr 21, 2011 at 10:16 PM, Sunnz sun...@gmail.com wrote: forget about multi-license, it is isc license and it doesn't really make sense to make them like ms volume license. but how hard would it be to provide an option for people to specify a different price for buying the cd? then you can pay $1000 for a cd if you want. The tax laws of the country I live in are more than enough for me to willingly deal with, so I won't claim any expertise in the laws of other countries, but are the people making these suggestions cognizant of the various laws and regulations that tend to surround deductible business expense or whatever the nearest local equivalent is? Do you *really* think a pick your own price item is actually fully deductible in the eyes of a random local tax authority? Really? Enough to stake your own fortune and business on? Do you know the laws of other countries enough that your conscience lets you make that recommendation to people living elsewhere? If so, wow, what are you doing hanging out on this list instead of making big bucks in finance? If you want to make a contribution and having it be tax deductible is a significant concern or would result in an increase in the size of the donation, then contact the OpenBSD Foundation (and review your relevant tax laws and regulations). The Foundation exists, in part, so that these issues and concerns don't become an undue burden on people. Philip Guenther I'll bet that even though it can't be deducted, a check payable to Theo deRaadt c/o The Computer Shop, Calgary would be quite effective. And we'll probably know if it wouldn't be before anyone has time to get stamps. Ed Ahlsen-Girard [demime 1.01d removed an attachment of type application/x-pkcs7-signature which had a name of smime.p7s]
Re: Like OpenBSD? Like to see new stuff happening? You really need to order a CD today :)
e ( 2011e944f 22f%f f d:o Philip Guenther guent...@gmail.com eio On Thu, Apr 21, 2011 at 10:16 PM, Sunnz sun...@gmail.com wrote: but how hard would it be to provide an option for people to specify a different price for buying the cd? then you can pay $1000 for a cd if you want. The tax laws of the country I live in are more than enough for me to willingly deal with, so I won't claim any expertise in the laws of other countries, but are the people making these suggestions cognizant of the various laws and regulations that tend to surround deductible business expense or whatever the nearest local equivalent is? B Do you *really* think a pick your own price item is actually fully deductible in the eyes of a random local tax authority? B Really? Enough to stake your own fortune and business on? B Do you know the laws of other countries enough that your conscience lets you make that recommendation to people living elsewhere? B If so, wow, what are you doing hanging out on this list instead of making big bucks in finance? it's a technical suggestion. it's just an option and it is up to the individual to decide whether if it is appropriate to make use of. mechanism, not policy. -- g):g.1e/h2/g )cf71h07e/e.9f04c sunnz.org
Re: Like OpenBSD? Like to see new stuff happening? You really need to order a CD today :)
Anyway, as Marco and others pointed out, there is an easy way for me to achieve what I want, and that is to order the number of CD sets I want and write a manual note to ship only one set out of those ordered. That has the added benefit that the remaining sets can be resold to someone else, which helps my environmental conciense to live with me. :-) So in conclusion, I've just put in an order for ten 4.9 CD sets and asked that only one be sent. From now on I'm going to order one virtual CD set for each of my about a dozen OpenBSD production servers, for every new release. In time, as my company evolves (read: earns more money :-) ), I hope to increase that order, because OpenBSD is an integral and absolutely critical part of our business infrastructure and what is good for the project is damned good for us. Thanks for the info Benny; I'm sure you're not the only one wanting to contribute more AND not consume more resources; and now we know how.
Re: Like OpenBSD? Like to see new stuff happening? You really need to order a CD today :)
On 22/04/2011, at 7:01 PM, Landry Breuil wrote: On Thu, Apr 21, 2011 at 11:55 PM, Paul M l...@no-tek.com wrote: Just order as many as you want and bin the excess. What really is being wasted?, A wee bit of plastic, traces of other materials and a small amount of energy used to produce it. A company that runs a big neon sign overnight is probably wasting more than that. Wow. That's probably the lamest reply i've seen in this thread. Everyone's wasting energy and dumping brand new things, so i should do it too! Landry Landry, I'm sorry to hear about your refusal to purchase a CD. However, I'm sure your regular donations are very much appreciated. paulm
Re: Like OpenBSD? Like to see new stuff happening? You really need to order a CD today :)
I'm sorry to hear about your refusal to purchase a CD. However, I'm sure your regular donations are very much appreciated. Landry's donations can be seen there: http://www.oxide.org/cvs/landry.html For some reason http://www.oxide.org/cvs/paulm.html is a 404 error page. I wonder why. Miod
Re: Like OpenBSD? Like to see new stuff happening? You really need to order a CD today :)
On Sat, Apr 23, 2011 at 08:23:51AM +1200, Paul M wrote: On 22/04/2011, at 7:01 PM, Landry Breuil wrote: On Thu, Apr 21, 2011 at 11:55 PM, Paul M l...@no-tek.com wrote: Just order as many as you want and bin the excess. What really is being wasted?, A wee bit of plastic, traces of other materials and a small amount of energy used to produce it. A company that runs a big neon sign overnight is probably wasting more than that. Wow. That's probably the lamest reply i've seen in this thread. Everyone's wasting energy and dumping brand new things, so i should do it too! Landry Landry, I'm sorry to hear about your refusal to purchase a CD. However, I'm sure your regular donations are very much appreciated. Commits are a type of donation, and yes, they are very much appreciated. -Otto
Re: Like OpenBSD? Like to see new stuff happening? You really need to order a CD today :)
On 23/04/2011, at 8:23 AM, Paul M wrote: On 22/04/2011, at 7:01 PM, Landry Breuil wrote: On Thu, Apr 21, 2011 at 11:55 PM, Paul M l...@no-tek.com wrote: Just order as many as you want and bin the excess. What really is being wasted?, A wee bit of plastic, traces of other materials and a small amount of energy used to produce it. A company that runs a big neon sign overnight is probably wasting more than that. Wow. That's probably the lamest reply i've seen in this thread. Everyone's wasting energy and dumping brand new things, so i should do it too! Landry Landry, I'm sorry to hear about your refusal to purchase a CD. However, I'm sure your regular donations are very much appreciated. paulm Disregard that. It was a cheap shot and contributes nothing to the discussion. I appologise. paulm
Re: Like OpenBSD? Like to see new stuff happening? You really need to order a CD today :)
Disregard that. It was a cheap shot and contributes nothing to the discussion. Too late. Your first born must become a skilled BSD developer to redeem your sins now.
Re: Like OpenBSD? Like to see new stuff happening? You really need to order a CD today :)
On 23/04/2011, at 8:43 AM, Miod Vallat wrote: I'm sorry to hear about your refusal to purchase a CD. However, I'm sure your regular donations are very much appreciated. Landry's donations can be seen there: http://www.oxide.org/cvs/landry.html For some reason http://www.oxide.org/cvs/paulm.html is a 404 error page. I wonder why. Miod Point taken. Again, I appologise for being a dick. I was frustrated that my original comment appeared to be completely missed - that the project needs CD sales, and in the grand scheme of things, the value of a cd set to the project is much greater than it's 'waste' value (in my opinion) if it's not used. I dont mean to suggest that people shouldn't continue to look for better ways to do it. paulm PS, Although I hate this kind of defense - I do buy cds.
Re: Like OpenBSD? Like to see new stuff happening? You really need to order a CD today :)
Love the ASCII art on the top level of that site. -- Ron McDowell San Antonio TX Miod Vallat wrote: Landry's donations can be seen there: http://www.oxide.org/cvs/landry.html
Re: Like OpenBSD? Like to see new stuff happening? You really need to order a CD today :)
Point taken. Again, I appologise for being a dick. Apology accepted. I was frustrated that my original comment appeared to be completely missed - that the project needs CD sales, and in the grand scheme of things, the value of a cd set to the project is much greater than it's 'waste' value (in my opinion) if it's not used. The project needs *funding*. CD sales, so far, are one of the best ways to do this. Better ways are welcome. In the meantime, keep ordering CD sets... Miod
Re: Like OpenBSD? Like to see new stuff happening? You really need to order a CD today :)
On 04/21/11 04:12, Theo de Raadt wrote: Please don't take this offensively as it touches a sensitive area. Right. We should not be offended when you say You are not getting any sales because you don't do enough. Do more. Benny's proposal is good! License the CD's as 10, 50, 100 user license set, exactly like you do for the old CDs which are $500+. This way OpenBSD taps into the commercial market. Commercial users buy the commercial CDs. Don't be ridiculous. Commercial users don't do that because OpenBSD is already free. They are not fools. Perhaps there are a few who are asking for specific methods where they can help fund us, within their constraints, but that is not nearly the same as get rich quick. They are an outstanding few, and they are not real commercial users. Even with proper deductable donation structures in place (ie. the OpenBSD Foundation) large corporations that are using OpenSSH in their products have given less than pennies per product. The world is not a shiny throw money around place as you think. Last time around somebody asked for packages on DVD. OpenBSD gets pre-orders a month in advance and if so many people want i386/amd64/etc package DVDs, just give it to them! MacOS + Linux + OpenSolaris has done some work on fat binaries, and I am sure with the expertise around here it can be done within some reasonable time. What a kick-ass project that would be! I understand that this is another form of saying do not do enough. We should do more. We should make a DVD, spend money on manufacturing it and packaging it, have people like Bob who is working on the 'buffer flipping' code instead go add more entries to the web page, and then see it if works. See if more than 50 sell. And what if it is a loss. And hey, every 6 months we can do *more work* to build yet another product! Anyway, wouldn't it be cool to reduce the bandwidth and hard drive usage for mirrors and simplify life for everybody? It might be news to you that the mirrors do that for free. A survey is free from so many websites. We get spammed all the time, participate in this and that, why not host a survey right now someplace on openbsd.org or one of the devs websites and see how much interest is really there. Yes, we should build a survey. And a wiki. It would be awesome. We'd get rich. OpenBSD got to be able to have more income streams. Income? I see that you have made a list of things of more things we should do. I don't see gauranteed income in there, anywhere. I can't even get the guys who hack on the project coordinated to work on the 49.html page so that we can get a ANNOUNCEMENT file ready for the upcoming file, because it isn't code, and it isn't as much fun. So you come here telling us we should do more? Get real. I don't do business, but I have more business sense than you. This is a good security minded response : don't expect more, don't count on it. This is coming from a trusted source but not necessarily opposed to the actual proposition. Business sense is good but I get that business is not just about preventing failure but also exploiting the features of the outer world, and the wonderfully informative and intricate laws API. Maybe it could use some full disclosure as well. There has to be some kind of |ber geek enjoying that ; business models are something to hack and debug, on and on, up to the details of the products you release and sell. As long as it costs less than it brings in for funding what wrong could it do ? I'm not saying it can happen, there is no failure in not trying unless you had to try, right ? -- Thomas de Grivel
Re: Like OpenBSD? Like to see new stuff happening? You really need to order a CD today :)
There has to be some kind of |ber geek enjoying that ; business models are something to hack and debug, on and on, up to the details of the products you release and sell. I'd love to go fix the sii3114 wdc(4) bug, and work with the other developers in the group to push ~10 important changes into the tree so that they make 5.0 but sorry... I should go 'hack some business models' instead? As long as it costs less than it brings in for funding what wrong could it do ? It costs time. Go do an install of OpenBSD 3.0 to understand the point.
Re: Like OpenBSD? Like to see new stuff happening? You really need to order a CD today :)
Hi, On Thu, 21 Apr 2011 11:49:45 -0600 Theo de Raadt dera...@cvs.openbsd.org wrote: As long as it costs less than it brings in for funding what wrong could it do ? It costs time. Go do an install of OpenBSD 3.0 to understand the point. How about a new product: OpenBSD license for one machine, without media. This way it could be made tax-deductible even for europeans, and there won't be production and shipping cost. Yes, I know, this one also takes some time, so probably not really worth it... -- Greetings Rafal Bisingier
Re: Like OpenBSD? Like to see new stuff happening? You really need to order a CD today :)
how about donate oh, that was already done... http://www.openbsd.org/donations.html - - - feed the trolls wire transfer http://www.openbsd.org/bank-donation.html credit card https://https.openbsd.org/cgi-bin/donations paypal https://www.paypal.com/xclick/business=paypal%40openbsd.orgitem_name=OpenBSD+Donationno_shipping=1 or manually: paypal Email: pay...@openbsd.org And make your own part number up. AND BTW, I just donated something, just think if every troll feeder put it $25 for each post. On 4/21/2011 4:15 PM, Rafal Bisingier wrote: Hi, On Thu, 21 Apr 2011 11:49:45 -0600 Theo de Raadtdera...@cvs.openbsd.org wrote: As long as it costs less than it brings in for funding what wrong could it do ? It costs time. Go do an install of OpenBSD 3.0 to understand the point. How about a new product: OpenBSD license for one machine, without media. This way it could be made tax-deductible even for europeans, and there won't be production and shipping cost. Yes, I know, this one also takes some time, so probably not really worth it...
Re: Like OpenBSD? Like to see new stuff happening? You really need to order a CD today :)
2011/4/21 Rafal Bisingier ra...@man.poznan.pl: How about a new product: OpenBSD license for one machine, without media. If it's so cool, why aren't you selling it?
Re: Like OpenBSD? Like to see new stuff happening? You really need to order a CD today :)
I'm late to read this thread but I just want to say I'm very grateful for all the work you've done, specially because you don't confuse me with business tricks. About business, I dont think you should expect people to be 'good', but I also think that when what you are doing makes good to people, it isn't that hard to make them feel uncomfortable. I would suggest making donation 'buttons' ominipresent when you navigate openbsd.org. Put it visible in places that people will need: download, documentation. For example, I'm quite on a budget but for example wikipedia.org completely got me. I use it so often that I couldn't read any more 'we need your donations' and ignore it when there was no more advertising on the site. My five cents, marc
Re: Like OpenBSD? Like to see new stuff happening? You really need to order a CD today :)
On 21/04/2011, at 12:07 PM, Benny Lofgren wrote: I'm sure this has been brought up before, but is there a way to buy licenses without actually getting the CD:s? There is a fundamental underlying problem with this. The OpenBSD code is free. That is one of the principles of the project (as far as I can guess. I'm not involved personaly, so its only my opinion). The price charged for the CD is the cost of the media + the costs of producing and marketing it + overheads of the company which produces it. The contents are free. If you subtract the media, then what is there left to sell? Just order as many as you want and bin the excess. What really is being wasted?, A wee bit of plastic, traces of other materials and a small amount of energy used to produce it. A company that runs a big neon sign overnight is probably wasting more than that. Who knows, maybe the extra funds going to the project will result in additional energy savings that will far outweigh the 'wastage' in producing some extra cds. paulm
Re: Like OpenBSD? Like to see new stuff happening? You really need to order a CD today :)
On Thu, Apr 21, 2011 at 4:55 PM, Paul M l...@no-tek.com wrote: Just order as many as you want and bin the excess. Order 1 with your shipping address, then order N - 1 with Richard Stallman's address. Problem solved.
Re: Like OpenBSD? Like to see new stuff happening? You really need to order a CD today :)
Surely there are two separate problems here: 1) you think OpenBSD needs to work to open up loopholes so that people who aren't donating or aren't donating as much because of tax reasons will now do so (and Amit thinks this is a series of technical problems that can be solved by non-strategic and sometimes non-sensical deliverables, such as finding a way to license distribution of a product that in its original distribution requires no license, which looks more like a tax avoidance or money laundering scheme than a legitimate fundraising tool and in any case not like anything that sentients will pay for in substantial numbers); and 2) you personally would like to give more, it's just that your tax accountant can't find a way. Maybe we could add a scheme where people pay OpenBSD for each time they don't send mail to misc, even though they really want to? Or when they mail misc and realise a few replies later they really ought to have thought better of it? Or when they flame the hell out of someone on misc and feel a lot better for it. There have to be the rudiments of a previously undiscovered licensing, royalty, or subscription scheme in there somewhere. Maybe you could consult Apple and discover that OpenBSD should demand 30% of your monthly bills for Internet access from your ISP(s), on the view that you wouldn't use the Internet if it weren't for OpenBSD. ;-, Bayard On 21 Apr 2011, at 02:33, Benny Lofgren wrote: On 2011-04-21 02.51, Marco Peereboom wrote: When ordering a CD it lets you tack on a donation. Call it 20 CDs and tax life is good. Yes I know, but as I tried to explain it doesn't help me if the receipt says donation or anything like it. You clearly don't know my accountant... :-) A simple multi-license article on the order form with a proper article text on the invoice would let me donate while keeping my accountant happy, as well as avoiding paying more taxes than necessary. - or - Order 20 CDs, give 19 away. Not very hard... I don't think I can muster 19 willing recipients of a gift CD set among my friends to be honest... :-/ Besides, it may sound silly but I really don't like to waste resources, be it my money, someone elses or some finite natural resource (CD:s don't grow on trees, do they? :-) ). Really, I'd happily pay the same price for one CD set plus n-1 CD-less licenses (and hopefully get the same volume discount as well), and it would be a true win-win for everyone. Regards, /Benny [demime 1.01d removed an attachment of type application/pkcs7-signature which had a name of smime.p7s]
Re: Like OpenBSD? Like to see new stuff happening? You really need to order a CD today :)
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 21 Apr 2011, at 11:55 PM, Paul M wrote: On 21/04/2011, at 12:07 PM, Benny Lofgren wrote: I'm sure this has been brought up before, but is there a way to buy licenses without actually getting the CD:s? There is a fundamental underlying problem with this. The OpenBSD code is free. That is one of the principles of the project (as far as I can guess. I'm not involved personaly, so its only my opinion). The price charged for the CD is the cost of the media + the costs of producing and marketing it + overheads of the company which produces it. The contents are free. If you subtract the media, then what is there left to sell? Just order as many as you want and bin the excess. What really is being wasted?, A wee bit of plastic, traces of other materials and a small amount of energy used to produce it. A company that runs a big neon sign overnight is probably wasting more than that. Who knows, maybe the extra funds going to the project will result in additional energy savings that will far outweigh the 'wastage' in producing some extra cds. paulm Agreed but, I stil like the idea of passing the cds on, drop them at a school if you don't know anybody who wants them? wayno iQEcBAEBAgAGBQJNsLLKAAoJENzqTnPMiNZlmS8IAMMOeyAlc6tVOurz2/Nxa3ZV iypaRs0R2c3nCABAzIooSIHC7NFXeloEDdNqhPqEvqIBz++mXNuCFsM2CHaAfMTX DZq0p+HurAsZ8QYhjoC6Xy2fGTB9wwrflM+o93O9SWULHTRsIxl6v/Vg5cLiSdaI TE5zqght5TQUdEL1ioXOmHHj7NxvWUy6L4kgqtcKy7eZqK1xGYD0YiFrzFTdfae5 EgYHxahwFY2LPNy7/y5hokgXmfS2GQpxJwV9gGQzkYZmq9FCwB36soXWYV5bbSTi LHsfS0uW3TVk+4kBHo8+iLANg8cHoHQFsb+K0mRWXO9oPGNMt3zUutu+jCOpkJ4= =Nfud -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: Like OpenBSD? Like to see new stuff happening? You really need to order a CD today :)
On 4/21/11 6:49 PM, J Sisson wrote: Order 1 with your shipping address, then order N - 1 with Richard Stallman's address. Problem solved. Brilliant! I hadn't thought of that, it's almost as good as http://xkcd.com/225
Re: Like OpenBSD? Like to see new stuff happening? You really need to order a CD today :)
On 04/19/11 16:10, Miod Vallat wrote: So if you want to contribute but don't know what to get, get a CD set (or several!). Noone will mind if you frame them and hang them on your wall; it's the thought which counts. Miod I'm gonna hate myself for this, but if it sends money to the project, it's worth it... I hereby declare OpenBSD CD sets to be The Next Beanie Baby/Webkins/iProduct thing. It's new, its trendy, and in six months, you need a new one. (that's how this works, right? Someone, somewhere declares that some toy or thing is the Must Have for the season, and all the world lines up to buy it? Gotta be something like that, let's see if I can make it work...) You HAVE to have one. Your friends with them will thumb their noses at you if you don't have one. Once you have one, you will be able to (and be expected to) look down on your poor, unfortunate pathetic excuse for friends that DON'T have one of their own. Heck, you won't even admit knowing them in polite company. Your kids will be laughed at by their peers who's parents have bought them an OpenBSD CD set, YOU will be responsible for the psychological trauma they experience for not having THE Latest Release on CD. Forcing your kids to share a CD set is not an option; remember, THEY will chose your nursing home. It's one per kid. And one for your spouse, too. You WILL line up to put your order in the moment Theo activates pre-orders in the future, including taking off work the day before it is rumored that Theo will activate pre-orders, so you can spend the day hitting Reload on your browser [note to self: talk to Theo about leaking pre-order day], and you will run as fast as you can to buy copies now. You WILL buy this release because it is better than the past releases. You will buy the next release because it is better than this release. You will NOT wait for the next release, you will buy this one. Remember, there are limited quantities of CDs available at any one instant, look at what that 2.4 CD is going for now. I know *I* wish I had bought one a while back. A friend of mine has an OpenBSD 2.0 CD set he bought when it first came out. He's...you know, SO COOL! (Hi, C.L.! :) He is CLEARLY better than me, because I didn't buy OpenBSD CDs until 2.6. Don't wait until the 4.9 disks are gone forever (or until Theo decides to make another run), get yours now! Slightly more seriously... Unlike the Beanie Babies and Webkins and iProducts, this actually matters to the world. You all know what it means to have a team producing an entire OS where the goal is nothing short of perfection, not a little better than Windows, where all software has bugs is something to change, not a statement of resignation and justification for status quo. Even if you don't use OpenBSD for everything, you realize that OpenBSD has helped raise the bar. So, how much money did you waste on Beanie Babies? Webkins? How much time did you or someone you know spend waiting in line for the latest one that just came out? (multiply by your hourly wage). Send it in as a donation with your CD purchase, and make the world a better place, not just with more damned stuffed toys. Nick.
Re: Like OpenBSD? Like to see new stuff happening? You really need to order a CD today :)
On Thu, 21 Apr 2011 23:03:03 -0400, Nick Holland wrote: On 04/19/11 16:10, Miod Vallat wrote: So if you want to contribute but don't know what to get, get a CD set (or several!). Noone will mind if you frame them and hang them on your wall; it's the thought which counts. Miod I'm gonna hate myself for this, but if it sends money to the project, it's worth it... I hereby declare OpenBSD CD sets to be The Next Beanie Baby/Webkins/iProduct thing. It's new, its trendy, and in six months, you need a new one. (that's how this works, right? Someone, somewhere declares that some toy or thing is the Must Have for the season, and all the world lines up to buy it? Gotta be something like that, let's see if I can make it work...) You HAVE to have one. Your friends with them will thumb their noses at you if you don't have one. Once you have one, you will be able to (and be expected to) look down on your poor, unfortunate pathetic excuse for friends that DON'T have one of their own. Heck, you won't even admit knowing them in polite company. Your kids will be laughed at by their peers who's parents have bought them an OpenBSD CD set, YOU will be responsible for the psychological trauma they experience for not having THE Latest Release on CD. Forcing your kids to share a CD set is not an option; remember, THEY will chose your nursing home. It's one per kid. And one for your spouse, too. You WILL line up to put your order in the moment Theo activates pre-orders in the future, including taking off work the day before it is rumored that Theo will activate pre-orders, so you can spend the day hitting Reload on your browser [note to self: talk to Theo about leaking pre-order day], and you will run as fast as you can to buy copies now. You WILL buy this release because it is better than the past releases. You will buy the next release because it is better than this release. You will NOT wait for the next release, you will buy this one. Remember, there are limited quantities of CDs available at any one instant, look at what that 2.4 CD is going for now. I know *I* wish I had bought one a while back. A friend of mine has an OpenBSD 2.0 CD set he bought when it first came out. He's...you know, SO COOL! (Hi, C.L.! :) He is CLEARLY better than me, because I didn't buy OpenBSD CDs until 2.6. Don't wait until the 4.9 disks are gone forever (or until Theo decides to make another run), get yours now! Slightly more seriously... Unlike the Beanie Babies and Webkins and iProducts, this actually matters to the world. You all know what it means to have a team producing an entire OS where the goal is nothing short of perfection, not a little better than Windows, where all software has bugs is something to change, not a statement of resignation and justification for status quo. Even if you don't use OpenBSD for everything, you realize that OpenBSD has helped raise the bar. So, how much money did you waste on Beanie Babies? Webkins? How much time did you or someone you know spend waiting in line for the latest one that just came out? (multiply by your hourly wage). Send it in as a donation with your CD purchase, and make the world a better place, not just with more damned stuffed toys. Nick. Bloody hell, Nick! TIC What are you doing wasting time near release day? Don't you have work to do on FAQ et c. ? Theo says that team members can't do all that business idea stuff and get their woek done as well. Besides, you are wasting your breath on that stupid idea. No-one will remember it in six or twelve months and the new team of ideas men will arrive. Will they have read the FA? Not on your nellie. /Toungue In Cheek (and just as well you know me!) *** NOTE *** Please DO NOT CC me. I am subscribed to the list. Mail to the sender address that does not originate at the list server is tarpitted. The reply-to: address is provided for those who feel compelled to reply off list. Thankyou. Rod/ --- This life is not the real thing. It is not even in Beta. If it was, then OpenBSD would already have a man page for it.
Re: Like OpenBSD? Like to see new stuff happening? You really need to order a CD today :)
On Tue, Apr 19, 2011 at 08:11:10PM +, Miod Vallat wrote: So if you want to contribute but don't know what to get, get a CD set Indeed, although I don't consider a CD-set to be a pure donation. They are quite useful (mutliple archs, src, packages, etc.) and it's so nice to have hard media around. And on the fun side, the themes are highly entertaining. (Who does the artwork? They've got real talent!) The shirts are durable and geeky, can't go wrong there either. Since you're going to get clothes anyway, it just makes sense to get some cool OpenBSD shirts. Nicolai
Re: Like OpenBSD? Like to see new stuff happening? You really need to order a CD today :)
On 04/21/11 19:49, Theo de Raadt wrote: There has to be some kind of |ber geek enjoying that ; business models are something to hack and debug, on and on, up to the details of the products you release and sell. I'd love to go fix the sii3114 wdc(4) bug, and work with the other developers in the group to push ~10 important changes into the tree so that they make 5.0 but sorry... I should go 'hack some business models' instead? If there are hackers of that kind lurking somewhere, probably not on this list, some of them would eventually want to share the fun. As long as it costs less than it brings in for funding what wrong could it do ? It costs time. Go do an install of OpenBSD 3.0 to understand the point. It subtracts time but if it also multiplies by more than one, at some point that's worth it. I really do enjoy the time you make me gain and there is so much more after the installation too, that's why I really wish or accept to buy something. Maybe OpenBSD would also enjoy the time and funding gained from some other kind of hackers. People who reveal and exploit our willingness to buy things we like, and others who like to communicate an image in sync with the produced goods : a f*ing awesome piece of software, if you sirs allow me. That's what a newborn geek would almost hear from far away but most have no chance to realize why and how because they never hear something from OpenBSD itself (other than from www.openbsd.org) and some due RTFM from irc. I think people who like to learn tend to listen more than they speak, but you also need someone talking to you. I learned so much just reading on the @openbsd lists and I feel I should have heard of it much sooner. If I had discovered it a few years sooner maybe I would be a happy contributor by now. And the motto can be something as blunt as hack up or put up, if it's how it works that's how it should read, big. Maybe something that implies less giving away than _Free_, Functional Secure. Those who care about the price will know. Just saying it with no other background creates an identity you can share for the things you like and enjoy. I think that like when registering a domain name, you are registering an image in people's mind : stubborn and hackers who have no fear speaking up the wrongs and like to patch them. Maybe this is too heroic, people don't get why one would want to do this. And at some point make it clear that it is heavily underrated and needs funding. Actually this is already done we know it is underrated and there is plenty to read about OpenBSD but, only for those who already reached it. You have to reach the top to enjoy the view. Reaching it is really unlikely but really worth it. Also advocacy@ feels quite empty compared to misc@. Bootstrapping is the right term, more than meta cross compiling, but this is still all about partial evaluation and reversing/translating it. -- Thomas de Grivel
Re: Like OpenBSD? Like to see new stuff happening? You really need to order a CD today :)
On 04/22/11 05:03, Nick Holland wrote: On 04/19/11 16:10, Miod Vallat wrote: So if you want to contribute but don't know what to get, get a CD set (or several!). Noone will mind if you frame them and hang them on your wall; it's the thought which counts. Miod I'm gonna hate myself for this, but if it sends money to the project, it's worth it... I hereby declare OpenBSD CD sets to be The Next Beanie Baby/Webkins/iProduct thing. It's new, its trendy, and in six months, you need a new one. (that's how this works, right? Someone, somewhere declares that some toy or thing is the Must Have for the season, and all the world lines up to buy it? Gotta be something like that, let's see if I can make it work...) Careful, you have to make it look like an accident ! -- Thomas de Grivel
Re: Like OpenBSD? Like to see new stuff happening? You really need to order a CD today :)
On Tue, Apr 19, 2011 at 08:11:10PM +, Miod Vallat wrote: The OpenBSD project does not receive any proceeds from tshirt, posters, doll or book sales. In any case, the OpenBSD project receives more money from the sale of one CD set than from the sale of one clothing attire, due to the production costs of said items. So if you want to contribute but don't know what to get, get a CD set (or several!). Noone will mind if you frame them and hang them on your wall; it's the thought which counts. Miod In fact one famous CD decorates the ceiling of a Calgary bar. Why not upgrade the decor of your local drinking establishment and give them a CD set to put on the wall/ceiling! And then you can raise a beer to OpenBSD every visit. Ken Ken, I hang out in the most red-neck hick places. They would likely try to put the cd in the juke box and would get mad that it didn't play. You should see them look at the OpenBSD shirts that I wear there occasionally. I think they think they are for some kind of devil-music rock band or something. s
Re: Like OpenBSD? Like to see new stuff happening? You really need to order a CD today :)
* Stuart VanZee stua...@datalinesys.com [2011-04-20 14:12]: I hang out in the most red-neck hick places. They would likely try to put the cd in the juke box and would get mad that it didn't play. You should see them look at the OpenBSD shirts that I wear there occasionally. I think they think they are for some kind of devil-music rock band or something. and that isn't actually THAT faar off, is it? ;) -- Henning Brauer, h...@bsws.de, henn...@openbsd.org BS Web Services, http://bsws.de Full-Service ISP - Secure Hosting, Mail and DNS Services Dedicated Servers, Rootservers, Application Hosting
Re: Like OpenBSD? Like to see new stuff happening? You really need to order a CD today :)
On 2011-04-19 16.27, Theo de Raadt wrote: Income: The direct income from sales (Computer Shop (primarily) + distributors) - Keeps the electrons flowing - Keeps me from taking that cushy Microsoft job Donations: The OpenBSD Foundation - Funds the big hackathons and some smaller ones - Funds the network links The paypal and european accounts - Funds the remaining small hackathons - Buys strange new pieces of hardware which are not donated I'm sure this has been brought up before, but is there a way to buy licenses without actually getting the CD:s? The reason I ask is that however much I like to have the CD sets in my bookshelf, I don't need ten or twenty of them... :-) But I still would like for my company to pay a fair fee for each system we run OpenBSD on. What complicates things for us is that the concept of donations isn't very practical here in Sweden, as a donation isn't regarded as a tax deductible expense at all, neither for private individuals nor corporations. A pure donation will in practice be nearly twice as expensive as the price tag itself would imply. For us it would be awesome to have the opportunity to order a multi-server CD, where I could specify for example a ten-system license, which would get me one CD set for the price of ten, with a good receipt for a perfectly valid, deductible business expense. It would be an excellent deal in my book. :-) (In the meantime, I'll just order the usual CD set with a T-shirt or a mug or two and hope for a better way to spend more money later on. :-) ) Regards, /Benny -- internetlabbet.se / work: +46 8 551 124 80 / Words must Benny Lvfgren/ mobile: +46 70 718 11 90 / be weighed, / fax:+46 8 551 124 89/not counted. /email: benny -at- internetlabbet.se
Re: Like OpenBSD? Like to see new stuff happening? You really need to order a CD today :)
When ordering a CD it lets you tack on a donation. Call it 20 CDs and tax life is good. - or - Order 20 CDs, give 19 away. Not very hard... On Thu, Apr 21, 2011 at 02:07:20AM +0200, Benny Lofgren wrote: On 2011-04-19 16.27, Theo de Raadt wrote: Income: The direct income from sales (Computer Shop (primarily) + distributors) - Keeps the electrons flowing - Keeps me from taking that cushy Microsoft job Donations: The OpenBSD Foundation - Funds the big hackathons and some smaller ones - Funds the network links The paypal and european accounts - Funds the remaining small hackathons - Buys strange new pieces of hardware which are not donated I'm sure this has been brought up before, but is there a way to buy licenses without actually getting the CD:s? The reason I ask is that however much I like to have the CD sets in my bookshelf, I don't need ten or twenty of them... :-) But I still would like for my company to pay a fair fee for each system we run OpenBSD on. What complicates things for us is that the concept of donations isn't very practical here in Sweden, as a donation isn't regarded as a tax deductible expense at all, neither for private individuals nor corporations. A pure donation will in practice be nearly twice as expensive as the price tag itself would imply. For us it would be awesome to have the opportunity to order a multi-server CD, where I could specify for example a ten-system license, which would get me one CD set for the price of ten, with a good receipt for a perfectly valid, deductible business expense. It would be an excellent deal in my book. :-) (In the meantime, I'll just order the usual CD set with a T-shirt or a mug or two and hope for a better way to spend more money later on. :-) ) Regards, /Benny -- internetlabbet.se / work: +46 8 551 124 80 / Words must Benny Lvfgren/ mobile: +46 70 718 11 90 / be weighed, / fax:+46 8 551 124 89/not counted. /email: benny -at- internetlabbet.se
Re: Like OpenBSD? Like to see new stuff happening? You really need to order a CD today :)
On 2011-04-21 02.51, Marco Peereboom wrote: When ordering a CD it lets you tack on a donation. Call it 20 CDs and tax life is good. Yes I know, but as I tried to explain it doesn't help me if the receipt says donation or anything like it. You clearly don't know my accountant... :-) A simple multi-license article on the order form with a proper article text on the invoice would let me donate while keeping my accountant happy, as well as avoiding paying more taxes than necessary. - or - Order 20 CDs, give 19 away. Not very hard... I don't think I can muster 19 willing recipients of a gift CD set among my friends to be honest... :-/ Besides, it may sound silly but I really don't like to waste resources, be it my money, someone elses or some finite natural resource (CD:s don't grow on trees, do they? :-) ). Really, I'd happily pay the same price for one CD set plus n-1 CD-less licenses (and hopefully get the same volume discount as well), and it would be a true win-win for everyone. Regards, /Benny On Thu, Apr 21, 2011 at 02:07:20AM +0200, Benny Lofgren wrote: On 2011-04-19 16.27, Theo de Raadt wrote: Income: The direct income from sales (Computer Shop (primarily) + distributors) - Keeps the electrons flowing - Keeps me from taking that cushy Microsoft job Donations: The OpenBSD Foundation - Funds the big hackathons and some smaller ones - Funds the network links The paypal and european accounts - Funds the remaining small hackathons - Buys strange new pieces of hardware which are not donated I'm sure this has been brought up before, but is there a way to buy licenses without actually getting the CD:s? The reason I ask is that however much I like to have the CD sets in my bookshelf, I don't need ten or twenty of them... :-) But I still would like for my company to pay a fair fee for each system we run OpenBSD on. What complicates things for us is that the concept of donations isn't very practical here in Sweden, as a donation isn't regarded as a tax deductible expense at all, neither for private individuals nor corporations. A pure donation will in practice be nearly twice as expensive as the price tag itself would imply. For us it would be awesome to have the opportunity to order a multi-server CD, where I could specify for example a ten-system license, which would get me one CD set for the price of ten, with a good receipt for a perfectly valid, deductible business expense. It would be an excellent deal in my book. :-) (In the meantime, I'll just order the usual CD set with a T-shirt or a mug or two and hope for a better way to spend more money later on. :-) ) Regards, /Benny -- internetlabbet.se / work: +46 8 551 124 80 / Words must Benny Lvfgren/ mobile: +46 70 718 11 90 / be weighed, / fax:+46 8 551 124 89/not counted. /email: benny -at- internetlabbet.se -- internetlabbet.se / work: +46 8 551 124 80 / Words must Benny Lvfgren/ mobile: +46 70 718 11 90 / be weighed, / fax:+46 8 551 124 89/not counted. /email: benny -at- internetlabbet.se
Re: Like OpenBSD? Like to see new stuff happening? You really need to order a CD today :)
Theo, Please don't take this offensively as it touches a sensitive area. Benny's proposal is good! License the CD's as 10, 50, 100 user license set, exactly like you do for the old CDs which are $500+. This way OpenBSD taps into the commercial market. Commercial users buy the commercial CDs. Last time around somebody asked for packages on DVD. OpenBSD gets pre-orders a month in advance and if so many people want i386/amd64/etc package DVDs, just give it to them! MacOS + Linux + OpenSolaris has done some work on fat binaries, and I am sure with the expertise around here it can be done within some reasonable time. What a kick-ass project that would be! Anyway, wouldn't it be cool to reduce the bandwidth and hard drive usage for mirrors and simplify life for everybody? A survey is free from so many websites. We get spammed all the time, participate in this and that, why not host a survey right now someplace on openbsd.org or one of the devs websites and see how much interest is really there. OpenBSD got to be able to have more income streams. Keep up the good fight! On Wed, Apr 20, 2011 at 7:07 PM, Benny Lofgren bl-li...@lofgren.biz wrote: On 2011-04-19 16.27, Theo de Raadt wrote: Income: The direct income from sales (Computer Shop (primarily) + distributors) - Keeps the electrons flowing - Keeps me from taking that cushy Microsoft job Donations: The OpenBSD Foundation - Funds the big hackathons and some smaller ones - Funds the network links The paypal and european accounts - Funds the remaining small hackathons - Buys strange new pieces of hardware which are not donated I'm sure this has been brought up before, but is there a way to buy licenses without actually getting the CD:s? The reason I ask is that however much I like to have the CD sets in my bookshelf, I don't need ten or twenty of them... :-) But I still would like for my company to pay a fair fee for each system we run OpenBSD on. What complicates things for us is that the concept of donations isn't very practical here in Sweden, as a donation isn't regarded as a tax deductible expense at all, neither for private individuals nor corporations. A pure donation will in practice be nearly twice as expensive as the price tag itself would imply. For us it would be awesome to have the opportunity to order a multi-server CD, where I could specify for example a ten-system license, which would get me one CD set for the price of ten, with a good receipt for a perfectly valid, deductible business expense. It would be an excellent deal in my book. :-) (In the meantime, I'll just order the usual CD set with a T-shirt or a mug or two and hope for a better way to spend more money later on. :-) ) Regards, /Benny -- internetlabbet.se / work: +46 8 551 124 80 / Words must Benny Lvfgren/ mobile: +46 70 718 11 90 / be weighed, / fax:+46 8 551 124 89/not counted. /email: benny -at- internetlabbet.se
Re: Like OpenBSD? Like to see new stuff happening? You really need to order a CD today :)
It isn't a good idea. jdixon tried, got exactly 0 responses. Really the horse is dead. Very very very dead. On Wed, Apr 20, 2011 at 07:54:52PM -0500, Amit Kulkarni wrote: Theo, Please don't take this offensively as it touches a sensitive area. Benny's proposal is good! License the CD's as 10, 50, 100 user license set, exactly like you do for the old CDs which are $500+. This way OpenBSD taps into the commercial market. Commercial users buy the commercial CDs. Last time around somebody asked for packages on DVD. OpenBSD gets pre-orders a month in advance and if so many people want i386/amd64/etc package DVDs, just give it to them! MacOS + Linux + OpenSolaris has done some work on fat binaries, and I am sure with the expertise around here it can be done within some reasonable time. What a kick-ass project that would be! Anyway, wouldn't it be cool to reduce the bandwidth and hard drive usage for mirrors and simplify life for everybody? A survey is free from so many websites. We get spammed all the time, participate in this and that, why not host a survey right now someplace on openbsd.org or one of the devs websites and see how much interest is really there. OpenBSD got to be able to have more income streams. Keep up the good fight! On Wed, Apr 20, 2011 at 7:07 PM, Benny Lofgren bl-li...@lofgren.biz wrote: On 2011-04-19 16.27, Theo de Raadt wrote: Income: The direct income from sales (Computer Shop (primarily) + distributors) - Keeps the electrons flowing - Keeps me from taking that cushy Microsoft job Donations: The OpenBSD Foundation - Funds the big hackathons and some smaller ones - Funds the network links The paypal and european accounts - Funds the remaining small hackathons - Buys strange new pieces of hardware which are not donated I'm sure this has been brought up before, but is there a way to buy licenses without actually getting the CD:s? The reason I ask is that however much I like to have the CD sets in my bookshelf, I don't need ten or twenty of them... :-) But I still would like for my company to pay a fair fee for each system we run OpenBSD on. What complicates things for us is that the concept of donations isn't very practical here in Sweden, as a donation isn't regarded as a tax deductible expense at all, neither for private individuals nor corporations. A pure donation will in practice be nearly twice as expensive as the price tag itself would imply. For us it would be awesome to have the opportunity to order a multi-server CD, where I could specify for example a ten-system license, which would get me one CD set for the price of ten, with a good receipt for a perfectly valid, deductible business expense. It would be an excellent deal in my book. :-) (In the meantime, I'll just order the usual CD set with a T-shirt or a mug or two and hope for a better way to spend more money later on. :-) ) Regards, /Benny -- internetlabbet.se / work: +46 8 551 124 80 / Words must Benny Lvfgren/ mobile: +46 70 718 11 90 / be weighed, / fax:+46 8 551 124 89/not counted. /email: benny -at- internetlabbet.se
Re: Like OpenBSD? Like to see new stuff happening? You really need to order a CD today :)
Please don't take this offensively as it touches a sensitive area. Right. We should not be offended when you say You are not getting any sales because you don't do enough. Do more. Benny's proposal is good! License the CD's as 10, 50, 100 user license set, exactly like you do for the old CDs which are $500+. This way OpenBSD taps into the commercial market. Commercial users buy the commercial CDs. Don't be ridiculous. Commercial users don't do that because OpenBSD is already free. They are not fools. Perhaps there are a few who are asking for specific methods where they can help fund us, within their constraints, but that is not nearly the same as get rich quick. They are an outstanding few, and they are not real commercial users. Even with proper deductable donation structures in place (ie. the OpenBSD Foundation) large corporations that are using OpenSSH in their products have given less than pennies per product. The world is not a shiny throw money around place as you think. Last time around somebody asked for packages on DVD. OpenBSD gets pre-orders a month in advance and if so many people want i386/amd64/etc package DVDs, just give it to them! MacOS + Linux + OpenSolaris has done some work on fat binaries, and I am sure with the expertise around here it can be done within some reasonable time. What a kick-ass project that would be! I understand that this is another form of saying do not do enough. We should do more. We should make a DVD, spend money on manufacturing it and packaging it, have people like Bob who is working on the 'buffer flipping' code instead go add more entries to the web page, and then see it if works. See if more than 50 sell. And what if it is a loss. And hey, every 6 months we can do *more work* to build yet another product! Anyway, wouldn't it be cool to reduce the bandwidth and hard drive usage for mirrors and simplify life for everybody? It might be news to you that the mirrors do that for free. A survey is free from so many websites. We get spammed all the time, participate in this and that, why not host a survey right now someplace on openbsd.org or one of the devs websites and see how much interest is really there. Yes, we should build a survey. And a wiki. It would be awesome. We'd get rich. OpenBSD got to be able to have more income streams. Income? I see that you have made a list of things of more things we should do. I don't see gauranteed income in there, anywhere. I can't even get the guys who hack on the project coordinated to work on the 49.html page so that we can get a ANNOUNCEMENT file ready for the upcoming file, because it isn't code, and it isn't as much fun. So you come here telling us we should do more? Get real. I don't do business, but I have more business sense than you.
Re: Like OpenBSD? Like to see new stuff happening? You really need to order a CD today :)
On Mon, Apr 18, 2011 at 9:39 PM, Bob Beck b...@obtuse.com wrote: So - yes we like donations, but we also like CD sales.. now is the time to help out. Order done on openbsdeurope.com. Sorry for being late. cheers! david
Re: Like OpenBSD? Like to see new stuff happening? You really need to order a CD today :)
On Tue, 19 Apr 2011 09:32:50 +0200, David Coppa dco...@gmail.com wrote: On Mon, Apr 18, 2011 at 9:39 PM, Bob Beck b...@obtuse.com wrote: So - yes we like donations, but we also like CD sales.. now is the time to help out. Order done on openbsdeurope.com. Sorry for being late. cheers! david Hi for Europeans, you can order here too http://openbsd.otasc.org/ :-) Enjoy ! Guillaume.
Re: Like OpenBSD? Like to see new stuff happening? You really need to order a CD today :)
2011/4/19 David Coppa dco...@gmail.com: Order done on openbsdeurope.com. Sorry for being late. I have ordered from them and would do so again, but their system has broken my account (again?) and the reset form doesn't work for Germans (house name?). A notice for whoever is responsible for the list of shops on http://www.openbsd.org/orders.html : - Lehmanns doesn't seem to sell OpenBSD anymore: the latest in the online shop is 4.7 - Linuxland has an invalid ssl cert and seems to sell *BSD only upon request - The webshop at ixSoft just works. :-) Best Martin
Re: Like OpenBSD? Like to see new stuff happening? You really need to order a CD today :)
On 19 April 2011 03:17, Theo de Raadt dera...@cvs.openbsd.org wrote: But without CD and tshirt sales, other parts of the project are in trouble -- the things that are more difficult to fund out of donations. In the past I've stuck to ordering the CD set as the homepage states that tshirt and poster sales do not fund the project. Is this no longer the case for tshirts? The only other thing that puts me off buying tshirts is that I've run into difficulty with North American tshirt sizes in the past. I've been unable to find detailed sizing informaion (length, chest etc.) and it'd be a disappointment to order a tshirt that I couldn't make use of. I am only a part of the CD sales money. CD sales money keeps the electrons flowing through cvs.openbsd.org. Trust me, it is critical. Do older CD releases fund the project in the same way that newer CD sets do? Ordering a bunch of older releases for my bookshelf (perhaps not 2.4!) is another way I'd consider contributing to the money pot. Likewise, there are many older posters and a couple of tshirts that I'd snap up if they still fund the project in the same way. I'm asking this as I've no idea what your agreements with your distributors are (nor do I care); I'd just like the comfort of knowing that any money I spend is funding the project in the way I expect/intend.
Re: Like OpenBSD? Like to see new stuff happening? You really need to order a CD today :)
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 19 Apr 2011, at 11:15 AM, Guillaume Duali wrote: On Tue, 19 Apr 2011 09:32:50 +0200, David Coppa dco...@gmail.com wrote: On Mon, Apr 18, 2011 at 9:39 PM, Bob Beck b...@obtuse.com wrote: So - yes we like donations, but we also like CD sales.. now is the time to help out. Order done on openbsdeurope.com. Sorry for being late. cheers! david Hi for Europeans, you can order here too http://openbsd.otasc.org/ :-) I placed an order recently for a few shirts and the book of pf. Received the shirts so far still waiting for the book :-) Gonna have to wait until the end of the month to order the latest CD. (In African terms it's fairly costly but well worth it.) Basically what I am saying is... Are there any African distributors? If not, I would be more than willing to help out with distributing in Africa. Thanks Wayne iQEcBAEBAgAGBQJNrVrPAAoJENzqTnPMiNZl27YIAL3JDnzDcJi4g494zzWj7Oq1 9HmV18XW3VkhFmidZkJHAqV8R/4Djl326bpFpfDArPonc0cPovrQObE3C+cFcBvE esISVv+vzlFIV1L5i9O6u1BERAGx5pyK7Oxpw9L2Js/VEgrYAds3bCW0S+/7SNG/ 9AvECoqZvaBcXcS6i/f9avLK+iLGZckN7XfUghIOCl7tQucrFO0WSumu5b+pT5RF z6cK+DaMt37a2zjts+Wv0w0UymK6oAIKJ7kzn/CyTFus9vDOQw9OBnhUtWjHCvyW 1J8tBermAg1MdT61UnwlJCPL1eWUU1KBtbDbBbtZkosjh7WGv4mYoWxxmlCUeKM= =7lb+ -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: Like OpenBSD? Like to see new stuff happening? You really need to order a CD today :)
2011/4/19 Martin Schrvder mar...@oneiros.de: - Lehmanns doesn't seem to sell OpenBSD anymore: the latest in the online shop is 4.7 Brainfart. Everything's fine with Lehmanns. :-) Best Martin
Re: Like OpenBSD? Like to see new stuff happening? You really need to order a CD today :)
Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2011 10:40:03 +0100 From: Glen Anderson g.s.ander...@gmail.com To: dera...@cvs.openbsd.org Cc: misc@openbsd.org Subject: Re: Like OpenBSD? Like to see new stuff happening? You really need to order a CD today :) Message-ID: BANLkTinW=uHE2=asn9h-vrqn3pml1kb...@mail.gmail.com On 19 April 2011 03:17, Theo de Raadt dera...@cvs.openbsd.org wrote: But without CD and tshirt sales, other parts of the project are in trouble -- the things that are more difficult to fund out of donations. In the past I've stuck to ordering the CD set as the homepage states that tshirt and poster sales do not fund the project. Is this no longer the case for tshirts? I have made similar purchasing decisions and would also like to know if t-shirt sales are now funding the project or are still kept as separate sales. Any information would be much appreciated. In [un]related news, I placed my pre-order as soon as pre-orders were announced. :)
Re: Like OpenBSD? Like to see new stuff happening? You really need to order a CD today :)
On 19 April 2011 03:17, Theo de Raadt dera...@cvs.openbsd.org wrote: But without CD and tshirt sales, other parts of the project are in trouble -- the things that are more difficult to fund out of donations. In the past I've stuck to ordering the CD set as the homepage states that tshirt and poster sales do not fund the project. Is this no longer the case for tshirts? I have made similar purchasing decisions and would also like to know if t-shirt sales are now funding the project or are still kept as separate sales. Any information would be much appreciated. OK, here's that note you are asking for: All sales fund the project in the same way. In the past there was an arrangement (in particular, with Wim) so that the tshirt sales would fund him while CD sales would fund us. He managed to rob is on that account in every possible way. So have not done that kind of arrangements for years. Tshirt sales from Canada (the computer shop / https.openbsd.org) and from the UK (openbsdeurope.com) fund the project just like the mugs, the CD's, posters, etc..
Re: Like OpenBSD? Like to see new stuff happening? You really need to order a CD today :)
On 19 April 2011 03:17, Theo de Raadt dera...@cvs.openbsd.org wrote: But without CD and tshirt sales, other parts of the project are in trouble -- the things that are more difficult to fund out of donations. In the past I've stuck to ordering the CD set as the homepage states that tshirt and poster sales do not fund the project. Is this no longer the case for tshirts? I have made similar purchasing decisions and would also like to know if t-shirt sales are now funding the project or are still kept as separate sales. Any information would be much appreciated. OK, here's that note you are asking for: All sales fund the project in the same way. In the past there was an arrangement (in particular, with Wim) so that the tshirt sales would fund him while CD sales would fund us. He managed to rob is on that account in every possible way. So have not done that kind of arrangements for years. Tshirt sales from Canada (the computer shop / https.openbsd.org) and from the UK (openbsdeurope.com) fund the project just like the mugs, the CD's, posters, etc.. Thank you very much!
Re: Like OpenBSD? Like to see new stuff happening? You really need to order a CD today :)
On 19 April 2011 03:17, Theo de Raadt dera...@cvs.openbsd.org wrote: But without CD and tshirt sales, other parts of the project are in trouble -- the things that are more difficult to fund out of donations. In the past I've stuck to ordering the CD set as the homepage states that tshirt and poster sales do not fund the project. Is this no longer the case for tshirts? tshirt, poster, mug, and cd sales are handled the same. They all offset project costs in Canada. Do older CD releases fund the project in the same way that newer CD sets do? Yes! Ordering a bunch of older releases for my bookshelf (perhaps not 2.4!) is another way I'd consider contributing to the money pot. It is a great way. Yes, some of the CDs we are almost out of are very expensive, intentionally. Some of them have been bought by people, so it is a pretty easy way to fund the project. Likewise, there are many older posters and a couple of tshirts that I'd snap up if they still fund the project in the same way. They all fund the project. I'm asking this as I've no idea what your agreements with your distributors are (nor do I care); I'd just like the comfort of knowing that any money I spend is funding the project in the way I expect/intend. Income: The direct income from sales (Computer Shop (primarily) + distributors) - Keeps the electrons flowing - Keeps me from taking that cushy Microsoft job Donations: The OpenBSD Foundation - Funds the big hackathons and some smaller ones - Funds the network links The paypal and european accounts - Funds the remaining small hackathons - Buys strange new pieces of hardware which are not donated
Re: Like OpenBSD? Like to see new stuff happening? You really need to order a CD today :)
On Tue, 19 Apr 2011, Theo de Raadt wrote: - Keeps me from taking that cushy Microsoft job Still... This *would* produce some interesting news stories. -- Monty Brandenberg
Re: Like OpenBSD? Like to see new stuff happening? You really need to order a CD today :)
On Tue, 19 Apr 2011 11:18:59 -0400 (EDT) m brandenberg wrote: Still... This *would* produce some interesting news stories. Can you imagine the internal memos just before an underground crypto department was born, like the rogue directX dept.. (except not so damaging to the industry)
Re: Like OpenBSD? Like to see new stuff happening? You really need to order a CD today :)
- Keeps me from taking that cushy Microsoft job Theo, Don't go over to the dark side. Stay aloof and kick everybody's ass. We need somebody to show that their marketing is mostly iAir. Now that you have given clear information about the updated status, I am sure many more would ante up. Thanks Donations: The OpenBSD Foundation - Funds the big hackathons and some smaller ones - Funds the network links The paypal and european accounts - Funds the remaining small hackathons - Buys strange new pieces of hardware which are not donated
Re: Like OpenBSD? Like to see new stuff happening? You really need to order a CD today :)
On 19 April 2011 03:17, Theo de Raadt dera...@cvs.openbsd.org wrote: tshirt, poster, mug, and cd sales are handled the same. They all offset project costs in Canada. This is true for the hoodies too. Sneak peek: http://imgur.com/IJrYb (The image doesn't include the Kangaroo pockets which they have)
Re: Like OpenBSD? Like to see new stuff happening? You really need to order a CD today :)
Tshirt sales from Canada (the computer shop / https.openbsd.org) and from the UK (openbsdeurope.com) fund the project just like the mugs, the CD's, posters, etc.. Nice to know, I also was of the mistaken belief that the T-Shirt sales didn't benefit the project (it is what I heard). Now that I know, I will be buying me some T-Shirts! AND at least one hoodie! Hmm... and maybe a coffee mug. Thank you all for your wonderful work on OpenBSD. s OpenBSD, Making me look like a freakin genious to my bosses since 3.6
Re: Like OpenBSD? Like to see new stuff happening? You really need to order a CD today :)
On 19 April 2011 15:27, Theo de Raadt dera...@cvs.openbsd.org wrote: On 19 April 2011 03:17, Theo de Raadt dera...@cvs.openbsd.org wrote: But without CD and tshirt sales, other parts of the project are in trouble -- the things that are more difficult to fund out of donations. In the past I've stuck to ordering the CD set as the homepage states that tshirt and poster sales do not fund the project. Is this no longer the case for tshirts? tshirt, poster, mug, and cd sales are handled the same. They all offset project costs in Canada. Do older CD releases fund the project in the same way that newer CD sets do? Yes! Ordering a bunch of older releases for my bookshelf (perhaps not 2.4!) is another way I'd consider contributing to the money pot. It is a great way. Yes, some of the CDs we are almost out of are very expensive, intentionally. Some of them have been bought by people, so it is a pretty easy way to fund the project. Likewise, there are many older posters and a couple of tshirts that I'd snap up if they still fund the project in the same way. They all fund the project. I'm asking this as I've no idea what your agreements with your distributors are (nor do I care); I'd just like the comfort of knowing that any money I spend is funding the project in the way I expect/intend. Income: The direct income from sales (Computer Shop (primarily) + distributors) - Keeps the electrons flowing - Keeps me from taking that cushy Microsoft job Donations: The OpenBSD Foundation - Funds the big hackathons and some smaller ones - Funds the network links The paypal and european accounts - Funds the remaining small hackathons - Buys strange new pieces of hardware which are not donated Thanks for the clarification Theo. FWIW I'd have purchased a poster with 4.8/4.9 if the home/donations/orders pages had included the above. Time to make some enquiries about shipping!
Re: Like OpenBSD? Like to see new stuff happening? You really need to order a CD today :)
On Tue, Apr 19, 2011 at 12:48, Stuart VanZee stua...@datalinesys.com wrote: Tshirt sales from Canada (the computer shop / https.openbsd.org) and from the UK (openbsdeurope.com) fund the project just like the mugs, the CD's, posters, etc.. Nice to know, I also was of the mistaken belief that the T-Shirt sales didn't benefit the project (it is what I heard). B Now that I know, I will be buying me some T-Shirts! B AND at least one hoodie! B Hmm... and maybe a coffee mug. I thought that as well too. I love the T-Shirts. They are quality, and feel softer than most of my T-shirts. I don't like wearing something that turns me into mobile ad space, but I make an exception for OpenBSD. I love my Good, Bad, Ugly T-shirt. Keep on kicking ass Theo... My grandma is going to love her Puffy coffee mug for her birthday... (yea, I give people presents they will re-gift, hopefully back to me ;) )
Re: Like OpenBSD? Like to see new stuff happening? You really need to order a CD today :)
Quoting Stuart VanZee stua...@datalinesys.com: Tshirt sales from Canada (the computer shop / https.openbsd.org) and from the UK (openbsdeurope.com) fund the project just like the mugs, the CD's, posters, etc.. Nice to know, I also was of the mistaken belief that the T-Shirt sales didn't benefit the project (it is what I heard). Same here ... http://marc.info/?l=openbsd-cvsm=120735755821256w=2 The OpenBSD project does not receive any proceeds from tshirt, posters, doll or book sales. Whatever; the current situation has been clarified, and I'll do what I can. Now that I know, I will be buying me some T-Shirts! AND at least one hoodie! Hmm... and maybe a coffee mug. Thank you all for your wonderful work on OpenBSD. s OpenBSD, Making me look like a freakin genious to my bosses since 3.6
Re: Like OpenBSD? Like to see new stuff happening? You really need to order a CD today :)
The OpenBSD project does not receive any proceeds from tshirt, posters, doll or book sales. In any case, the OpenBSD project receives more money from the sale of one CD set than from the sale of one clothing attire, due to the production costs of said items. So if you want to contribute but don't know what to get, get a CD set (or several!). Noone will mind if you frame them and hang them on your wall; it's the thought which counts. Miod
Re: Like OpenBSD? Like to see new stuff happening? You really need to order a CD today :)
Maybe I'll pick up a few more, and leave them in the break room... We're pretty linux-centric here, but there are a bunch of coders here who could learn a few things about good code... On Tue, Apr 19, 2011 at 15:11, Miod Vallat m...@online.fr wrote: The OpenBSD project does not receive any proceeds from tshirt, posters, doll or book sales. In any case, the OpenBSD project receives more money from the sale of one CD set than from the sale of one clothing attire, due to the production costs of said items. So if you want to contribute but don't know what to get, get a CD set (or several!). Noone will mind if you frame them and hang them on your wall; it's the thought which counts. Miod
Re: Like OpenBSD? Like to see new stuff happening? You really need to order a CD today :)
On Tue, Apr 19, 2011 at 08:11:10PM +, Miod Vallat wrote: The OpenBSD project does not receive any proceeds from tshirt, posters, doll or book sales. In any case, the OpenBSD project receives more money from the sale of one CD set than from the sale of one clothing attire, due to the production costs of said items. So if you want to contribute but don't know what to get, get a CD set (or several!). Noone will mind if you frame them and hang them on your wall; it's the thought which counts. Miod In fact one famous CD decorates the ceiling of a Calgary bar. Why not upgrade the decor of your local drinking establishment and give them a CD set to put on the wall/ceiling! And then you can raise a beer to OpenBSD every visit. Ken
Re: Like OpenBSD? Like to see new stuff happening? You really need to order a CD today :)
On Tue, 19 Apr 2011 11:18 -0400, m brandenberg mcb...@panix.com wrote: On Tue, 19 Apr 2011, Theo de Raadt wrote: - Keeps me from taking that cushy Microsoft job Still... This *would* produce some interesting news stories. I imagine it would be similar to when Harlan Ellison took a job with Disney. :)
Re: Like OpenBSD? Like to see new stuff happening? You really need to order a CD today :)
On Mon, 18 Apr 2011 13:39:19 -0600, Bob Beck b...@obtuse.com wrote: Hi all, So, short answer? go buy a CD. pre-orders are a little slow this release, and we need to see some more activity in that area. Then maybe I'll stop worrying about it and commit that thing that will make your amd64 use even more buttloads of memory too! I've just ordered my CD set and a hoodie. Sorry for not doing it sooner - you guy certainly deserve it. If I meet you in person, remind me to buy you a drink or three :-) Patsy
Re: Like OpenBSD? Like to see new stuff happening? You really need to order a CD today :)
On Mon, 18 Apr 2011, Bob Beck wrote: Hi all, A number of you may have noticed the recent flurry of activity, leading to stuff like bigmem being turned on.. Some more good stuff is coming soon (my amd64 at my house is using 7 gigabyes of memory for buffer cache, and I'm doing builds without touching disks..). Some really cool stuff is being worked on and is coming to a source tree near you soon. However, I'd like to take the opportunity to remind you all, that the project does depend on CD and shirt sales to keep it alive. Yes you may not use a CD all the time, but the latest one is pretty cool. So, short answer? go buy a CD. pre-orders are a little slow this release, and we need to see some more activity in that area. This may tie in to something I've noticed -- it's less than two weeks to the official release date of 4.9 but there's no sign that the CDs are shipping yet. While there's no obligation for them to arrive before that date, usually we hear earlier than this that they're shipping. Is there some delay? Then maybe I'll stop worrying about it and commit that thing that will make your amd64 use even more buttloads of memory too! So - yes we like donations, but we also like CD sales.. now is the time to help out. My set was ordered as soon as the order page went up, but (since, for the first time in far too long, I've got some spare cash) I'll see about also making a donation. Not that I have any particular standing, but FWIW, y'all please order a CD set if you haven't already done so. OpenBSD has served me well for quite a few years, and I'd really like to see it continue -- and continue to improve. Dave -- Dave Anderson d...@daveanderson.com
Re: Like OpenBSD? Like to see new stuff happening? You really need to order a CD today :)
A number of you may have noticed the recent flurry of activity, leading to stuff like bigmem being turned on.. Some more good stuff is coming soon (my amd64 at my house is using 7 gigabyes of memory for buffer cache, and I'm doing builds without touching disks..). Some really cool stuff is being worked on and is coming to a source tree near you soon. However, I'd like to take the opportunity to remind you all, that the project does depend on CD and shirt sales to keep it alive. Yes you may not use a CD all the time, but the latest one is pretty cool. So, short answer? go buy a CD. pre-orders are a little slow this release, and we need to see some more activity in that area. This may tie in to something I've noticed -- it's less than two weeks to the official release date of 4.9 but there's no sign that the CDs are shipping yet. While there's no obligation for them to arrive before that date, usually we hear earlier than this that they're shipping. Is there some delay? Wow -- watch out, or you will kill the message. I note you are inside North America. Packages inside North America can make it to their destination in 3 days, 4 days tops. It is April 18. What are you talking about? Your CD order will arrive around the release time. Probably before, as is usual, though noone ever promised that! As well, I know that other distributors (including Liam in England) will soon have CDs ready so that there can be a 'coordinated release'. People on the other continents need to get a chance to be the first at bragging. Let's backtrack. Bob is bringing up an important point (he mentioned it publically after I mentioned it privately to him earlier, so I know where this comes from). Year on year, when it comes to money that keeps the project going, nothing much has changed in this project. I think people should contrast our track record of 'good product' to our 'inability to sell out'. Unlike everyone else in the open source industry, we continue to operate on donations and CD sales (money). We have kept donations and money seperated. Donations fund the things they can easily fund, and money funds the things they can fund easily; we all know there are business/taxation rules to be followed. The donations primarily fund the hackathons (5-6 a year these days) and travel assistance for the less fortunate developers to those hackathons. Great things come from those donations, from those hackathons we are all running code that came out of them. None of us can contest that. But without CD and tshirt sales, other parts of the project are in trouble -- the things that are more difficult to fund out of donations. And there is a further relationship: If not enough CDs are sold in a release, there may be no further CDs made after that. If there are no CDs made or sold, I don't know what will happen. I doubt donations could help us ever again bootstrap a CD release process again. I don't know where various aspects of the project would go. Of course everyone knows that part of the CD sales become my salary (keeping me away from working for companies writing non-free software perhaps, though I doubt I am employable). But that is only fair. All of you eat, too. I spend more time in front a keyboard than most of you... If things went bad financially, I don't know how I would cope with such a big change. I doubt the user community has a plan for that, either. If you are receiving this mail you are using OpenBSD or the other things that our developer community have made, so please be considerate and help us continue. The donations are one thing, and thank you -- but please remember that the sales component has to be there too. I am only a part of the CD sales money. CD sales money keeps the electrons flowing through cvs.openbsd.org. Trust me, it is critical. Not that I have any particular standing, but FWIW, y'all please order a CD set if you haven't already done so. OpenBSD has served me well for quite a few years, and I'd really like to see it continue -- and continue to improve. Exactly -- let us continue doing this.
Re: Like OpenBSD? Like to see new stuff happening? You really need to order a CD today :)
On Mon, 18 Apr 2011, Theo de Raadt wrote: A number of you may have noticed the recent flurry of activity, leading to stuff like bigmem being turned on.. Some more good stuff is coming soon (my amd64 at my house is using 7 gigabyes of memory for buffer cache, and I'm doing builds without touching disks..). Some really cool stuff is being worked on and is coming to a source tree near you soon. However, I'd like to take the opportunity to remind you all, that the project does depend on CD and shirt sales to keep it alive. Yes you may not use a CD all the time, but the latest one is pretty cool. So, short answer? go buy a CD. pre-orders are a little slow this release, and we need to see some more activity in that area. This may tie in to something I've noticed -- it's less than two weeks to the official release date of 4.9 but there's no sign that the CDs are shipping yet. While there's no obligation for them to arrive before that date, usually we hear earlier than this that they're shipping. Is there some delay? Wow -- watch out, or you will kill the message. My apologies if my reply had any such effect; it certainly wasn't intended to do that. I note you are inside North America. Packages inside North America can make it to their destination in 3 days, 4 days tops. It is April 18. What are you talking about? Your CD order will arrive around the release time. Probably before, as is usual, though noone ever promised that! As I said, I believe that OpenBSD's only obligation is to get the pre-order CD sets to us by the release date (and even that isn't absolute, given that shit happens). I was just interested in / curious about why the pre-order process seemed to be working a bit differently from the way it usually has. As well, I know that other distributors (including Liam in England) will soon have CDs ready so that there can be a 'coordinated release'. People on the other continents need to get a chance to be the first at bragging. Thanks for the explanation. Dave Let's backtrack. Bob is bringing up an important point (he mentioned it publically after I mentioned it privately to him earlier, so I know where this comes from). Year on year, when it comes to money that keeps the project going, nothing much has changed in this project. I think people should contrast our track record of 'good product' to our 'inability to sell out'. Unlike everyone else in the open source industry, we continue to operate on donations and CD sales (money). We have kept donations and money seperated. Donations fund the things they can easily fund, and money funds the things they can fund easily; we all know there are business/taxation rules to be followed. The donations primarily fund the hackathons (5-6 a year these days) and travel assistance for the less fortunate developers to those hackathons. Great things come from those donations, from those hackathons we are all running code that came out of them. None of us can contest that. But without CD and tshirt sales, other parts of the project are in trouble -- the things that are more difficult to fund out of donations. And there is a further relationship: If not enough CDs are sold in a release, there may be no further CDs made after that. If there are no CDs made or sold, I don't know what will happen. I doubt donations could help us ever again bootstrap a CD release process again. I don't know where various aspects of the project would go. Of course everyone knows that part of the CD sales become my salary (keeping me away from working for companies writing non-free software perhaps, though I doubt I am employable). But that is only fair. All of you eat, too. I spend more time in front a keyboard than most of you... If things went bad financially, I don't know how I would cope with such a big change. I doubt the user community has a plan for that, either. If you are receiving this mail you are using OpenBSD or the other things that our developer community have made, so please be considerate and help us continue. The donations are one thing, and thank you -- but please remember that the sales component has to be there too. I am only a part of the CD sales money. CD sales money keeps the electrons flowing through cvs.openbsd.org. Trust me, it is critical. Not that I have any particular standing, but FWIW, y'all please order a CD set if you haven't already done so. OpenBSD has served me well for quite a few years, and I'd really like to see it continue -- and continue to improve. Exactly -- let us continue doing this. -- Dave Anderson d...@daveanderson.com
