Re: my experience with openbsdstore.com
On 04/13/2015 06:08 AM, Peter Hessler wrote: and easier than cheques. Who said anything about cheques? Stop leaping to conclusions. -- Those who do not understand Unix are condemned to reinvent it, poorly.
Re: my experience with openbsdstore.com
On 04/12/2015 11:57 PM, Marc Peters wrote: On 04/12/15 20:12, Jason Adams wrote: On 04/11/2015 06:01 AM, IMAP List Administration wrote: The trouble began immediately. I chose electronic wire transfer as the payment method, Its not 1929 any more. I'm utterly suprised the store still offers wire transfer. In my day job, we refuse wire transfers. We would rather lose a customer than deal with it unless the invoice is several thousand dollars. Its too much work (on both ends) and one never gets the invoice amount, as the banks charge fees on both ends. Not in Europe. Actually, the most money transfers here are done by wire transfer, as it's for free. What should have been an automated order now requites human intervention on both ends, plus any transcription error along the way sends your money to no-man's land. Not in Europe and the process of matching the payments should be automated anyway. Even the store's handling of PayPal is obsolete, requiring two steps, and manual matching of orders to payments. Should be an automated process, too. There are a dozen other payment methods that could be used on the store, but it seems hopelessly stuck in 1996. Yeah, and you go to a bank and throw papers in or send cheques? Where or when do you live? In the 80's? You seem to be confusing any means of electronic payment with wire transfers from one bank to another. Please try to focus on the discussion at hand. I haven't written a check in several years. -- Those who do not understand Unix are condemned to reinvent it, poorly.
Re: my experience with openbsdstore.com
On 12/04/15 15:41, Theo de Raadt wrote: I wonder if this is the right moment for me to mention my experiences with moving money in Argentina when I was a tourist there during the economic problems, more than a decade ago. I wonder if my story or insight is relevant in any way; I also wonder if my commentary on this list -- and yours -- will have any impact on the way banking and commerce works. As someone born and currently living in Argentina, this sounds interesting. My point was completely sarcasm. This is an OpenBSD list. It is provided for discussing OpenBSD; not for describing banking, nor the problems of pebbles underneath skateboard wheels, nor mitigations against lilly beetle infestations. Why do so many of you get trolled into turning this into a waste of time? Bye.
Re: my experience with openbsdstore.com
You seem to be confusing any means of electronic payment with wire transfers from one bank to another. Please try to focus on the discussion at hand. I haven't written a check in several years. Please try to focus on the mailing list you are on. Will your commentary change anything, or are you just plain off topic?
Re: my experience with openbsdstore.com
my discussions with support (at) openbsdstore (dot) com were lengthy (2014-10-06 - 20014-10-22) because I ordered two CD-Sets and wanted only one to be shipped. This seemed to puzzle staff over there but no problems with money transfer (via bank, SEPA) or shipping or anything... Bye, Marcus li...@y42.org (IMAP List Administration), 2015.04.11 (Sat) 15:01 (CEST): the following describes my experience ordering CDs from the openbsdstore.com. As openbsdstore.com is apparently the only source for OpenBSD CDs these days, I ordered two sets of v5.6 a while ago (December 2014). The order The trouble began immediately. I chose electronic wire transfer as the payment method, but even though I had supplied my VAT-ID and indicated that I wished to avoid paying VAT, there total included VAT and there was no way to remove it. I figured it was simpler to order and ask to have the VAT transferred back. I ordered, and sent a corresponding request. The Ticketing System The store opened a ticket on my behalf (at least there *is* a ticketing system), and I began to receive emails from the ticketing system. They mostly look like this: /Person's name/ just logged a message to a ticket in which you participate. [content of message] /You're getting this email because you are a collaborator on ticket #229757 https://support.openbsdstore.com/view.php?auth=c1x2qaqaabxamaaa4o7EuU%2BmlBQAJA%3D%3D. To participate, simply reply to this email or click here https://support.openbsdstore.com/view.php?auth=c1x2qaqaabxamaaa4o7EuU%2BmlBQAJA%3D%3D for a complete archive of the ticket thread./ I cannot, however, participate by clicking on the link. The link is only for internal use. So the system can't differentiate between support staff and customers Bank Details I am requested to provide bank details. Fair enough. I provide my IBAN (int'l bank account number) and BIC/SWIFT (unique bank ID) details. These two items are sufficient to transfer money *anywhere* within the EU (In fact, the IBAN alone is sufficient, as it contains the bank code). This is made possible by SEPA. From wikipedia: The *Single Euro Payments Area* (*SEPA*) is a payment-integration initiative of the European Union http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Union for simplification of bank transfers denominated in euro http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euro. As of February 2014, SEPA consists of the 28 EU member states, the 4 members of the EFTA http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Free_Trade_Association (Iceland, Liechtenstein, Norway and Switzerland), Monaco and San Marino http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_Marino IBAN/BIC Not Enough The response is: I'm very sorry but our bank require your bank's address... That the bank demands my bank's address is pure rubbish. Transfer Costs More Than Refund The next missive from openbsdstore.com was: Hopefully you should have received the ???15 sent by post - unfortunately we had to send it in this way, as our bank wanted to charge us ???20 to send it to you electronically! This can't be happening And in fact an envelope containing a 10 and a 5 euro note arrived somewhat later. Maybe OpenBSD should look for a European partner that can tell its bank what to do, instead of the other way round? Rob Urban !DSPAM:55291bbc52771801260458!
Re: my experience with openbsdstore.com
On 04/12/15 20:12, Jason Adams wrote: On 04/11/2015 06:01 AM, IMAP List Administration wrote: The trouble began immediately. I chose electronic wire transfer as the payment method, Its not 1929 any more. I'm utterly suprised the store still offers wire transfer. In my day job, we refuse wire transfers. We would rather lose a customer than deal with it unless the invoice is several thousand dollars. Its too much work (on both ends) and one never gets the invoice amount, as the banks charge fees on both ends. Not in Europe. Actually, the most money transfers here are done by wire transfer, as it's for free. What should have been an automated order now requites human intervention on both ends, plus any transcription error along the way sends your money to no-man's land. Not in Europe and the process of matching the payments should be automated anyway. Even the store's handling of PayPal is obsolete, requiring two steps, and manual matching of orders to payments. Should be an automated process, too. There are a dozen other payment methods that could be used on the store, but it seems hopelessly stuck in 1996. Yeah, and you go to a bank and throw papers in or send cheques? Where or when do you live? In the 80's?
Re: my experience with openbsdstore.com
erk. I should keep my hands away from the keyboard when I have a head cold. On Mon, Apr 13, 2015 at 8:16 PM, Joel Rees joel.r...@gmail.com wrote: FWIW, [...] in Japan and (IIRC) the US, there is wire transfer, which is more or less as Jason describes, and electronic transfer, which is much more reasonably priced, particularly if you keep more than JPY 300,000 or so (USD 3000 or so) in the bank. And thus I demonstrate exactly the kind of conflation I was trying to point out. e-billing (US) is not the same thing as electronic transfer at the post office (Japan). Sorry for the noise. -- Joel Rees Be careful when you look at conspiracy. Look first in your own heart, and ask yourself if you are not your own worst enemy. Arm yourself with knowledge of yourself, as well.
Re: my experience with openbsdstore.com
FWIW, On Mon, Apr 13, 2015 at 3:12 AM, Jason Adams adams...@gmail.com wrote: On 04/11/2015 06:01 AM, IMAP List Administration wrote: The trouble began immediately. I chose electronic wire transfer as the payment method, Its not 1929 any more. I'm utterly suprised the store still offers wire transfer. In my day job, we refuse wire transfers. We would rather lose a customer than deal with it unless the invoice is several thousand dollars. Its too much work (on both ends) and one never gets the invoice amount, as the banks charge fees on both ends. What should have been an automated order now requites human intervention on both ends, plus any transcription error along the way sends your money to no-man's land. Even the store's handling of PayPal is obsolete, requiring two steps, and manual matching of orders to payments. There are a dozen other payment methods that could be used on the store, but it seems hopelessly stuck in 1996. in Japan and (IIRC) the US, there is wire transfer, which is more or less as Jason describes, and electronic transfer, which is much more reasonably priced, particularly if you keep more than JPY 300,000 or so (USD 3000 or so) in the bank. -- Those who do not understand Unix are condemned to reinvent it, poorly. (One of these days, I want to be so condemned, as long as someone is paying me to do it. ;-) -- Joel Rees Be careful when you look at conspiracy. Look first in your own heart, and ask yourself if you are not your own worst enemy. Arm yourself with knowledge of yourself, as well.
Re: my experience with openbsdstore.com
On 04/12/2015 08:12 PM, Jason Adams wrote: On 04/11/2015 06:01 AM, IMAP List Administration wrote: The trouble began immediately. I chose electronic wire transfer as the payment method, Its not 1929 any more. I'm utterly suprised the store still offers wire transfer. In my day job, we refuse wire transfers. We would rather lose a customer than deal with it unless the invoice is several thousand dollars. Its too much work (on both ends) and one never gets the invoice amount, as the banks charge fees on both ends. As other people have pointed out, wire transfer (EWT) is the norm in Europe. It is effortless, automated by most, and it replaced using cheques 25 or so years ago. There is either zero added fee or the fee is trivial -- this is required by EU law. So bragging that your company refuses EWT can be compared to bragging that your company refuses to use online electronic methods to transfer files such as FTP/etc, and only accepts files that are provided on floppy disks. Your perception is highly subjective and in fact badly distorted because you think that because your country/system has botched the implementation of EWT that all countries/systems must also have botched it. wrong. What should have been an automated order now requites human intervention on both ends, plus any transcription error along the way sends your money to no-man's land. botched implementation of your system. Not in EU. Even the store's handling of PayPal is obsolete, requiring two steps, and manual matching of orders to payments. nothing to do with EWT, but not surprising. There are a dozen other payment methods that could be used on the store, but it seems hopelessly stuck in 1996. based on assumption that own system is best. How could anything be simpler than having A instruct A's bank to move funds to B's bank account?
Re: my experience with openbsdstore.com
On Mon, 13 Apr 2015 14:38:07 +0200 IMAP List Administration wrote: based on assumption that own system is best. How could anything be simpler than having A instruct A's bank to move funds to B's bank account? Since I found this out I've always wanted the UK to do the same, this 'modern' payment system as I guess you think it is, is CRAP. Trusting one banks website with your payment information has to be more secure than the mess of using VISA etc. with a different interface on most sites. Amazon doesn't even require the security code or didn't and many sites store details sometimes without asking such as Steam (storing is illegal in the U.S. I believe). Direct debits are a joke too as many don't realise that you can and should put a limit on them rather than writing a blank cheque under a 'Guarantee'. I've also had large payments done twice on my company VISA which meant the card was declined whilst out in London which wouldn't happen if the payer kept control, like with cash. I certainly don't hand over my wallet and ask the cashier to take the correct amount and then possibly get charged by the bank for borrowing because the cashier took a twenty and not a tenna. We still have to do bank transfers from time to time anyway too. I presume that in OTHER parts of Europe!, outside the UK they have a reasonably good method of securely verifying sort codes and account numbers which UK banks should provide for more than just large organisations. One startups website made an over the top apology for not offering electronic card processing, which I guess means they had many over the top complaints and had to comply for profit/PR reasons. I wonder what the startup really thought but couldn't say publicly??
Re: my experience with openbsdstore.com
On 2015 Apr 12 (Sun) at 11:12:37 -0700 (-0700), Jason Adams wrote: :In my day job, we refuse wire transfers. We would rather lose a customer than deal :with it unless the invoice is several thousand dollars. Its too much work (on both ends) :and one never gets the invoice amount, as the banks charge fees on both ends. : I can tell from this comment, that you are used to using banks in the USA. In Europe, the exact opposite is true. Bank Transfers are far superiour, faster, cheaper, and easier than cheques. -- What this country needs is a good five cent microcomputer.
Re: my experience with openbsdstore.com
On 04/11/2015 06:01 AM, IMAP List Administration wrote: The trouble began immediately. I chose electronic wire transfer as the payment method, Its not 1929 any more. I'm utterly suprised the store still offers wire transfer. In my day job, we refuse wire transfers. We would rather lose a customer than deal with it unless the invoice is several thousand dollars. Its too much work (on both ends) and one never gets the invoice amount, as the banks charge fees on both ends. What should have been an automated order now requites human intervention on both ends, plus any transcription error along the way sends your money to no-man's land. Even the store's handling of PayPal is obsolete, requiring two steps, and manual matching of orders to payments. There are a dozen other payment methods that could be used on the store, but it seems hopelessly stuck in 1996. -- Those who do not understand Unix are condemned to reinvent it, poorly.
Re: my experience with openbsdstore.com
2015-04-12 20:12 GMT+02:00 Jason Adams adams...@gmail.com: On 04/11/2015 06:01 AM, IMAP List Administration wrote: The trouble began immediately. I chose electronic wire transfer as the payment method, Its not 1929 any more. I'm utterly suprised the store still offers wire transfer. Not everyone lives in a country that still believes mailing paper scraps is the best way to transfer money. In Europe electronic transfer is the norm. It's fast and cheap (note: In the EU an electronic transfer in Euros across countries MAY NOT cost more than a national transfer - which often is free. And if one party is in a non-Euro country (like the UK) no exchange cost will be added). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wire_transfer#Regulation_and_price I am always happy to have bankers on our list, people who can make sure we know when we are being screwed, I guess that is the class of people. I wonder if this is the right moment for me to mention my experiences with moving money in Argentina when I was a tourist there during the economic problems, more than a decade ago. I wonder if my story or insight is relevant in any way; I also wonder if my commentary on this list -- and yours -- will have any impact on the way banking and commerce works.
Re: my experience with openbsdstore.com
2015-04-12 20:12 GMT+02:00 Jason Adams adams...@gmail.com: On 04/11/2015 06:01 AM, IMAP List Administration wrote: The trouble began immediately. I chose electronic wire transfer as the payment method, Its not 1929 any more. I'm utterly suprised the store still offers wire transfer. Not everyone lives in a country that still believes mailing paper scraps is the best way to transfer money. In Europe electronic transfer is the norm. It's fast and cheap (note: In the EU an electronic transfer in Euros across countries MAY NOT cost more than a national transfer - which often is free. And if one party is in a non-Euro country (like the UK) no exchange cost will be added). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wire_transfer#Regulation_and_price Best Martin
Re: my experience with openbsdstore.com
On 11/04/15 14:01, IMAP List Administration wrote: Transfer Costs More Than Refund The next missive from openbsdstore.com was: Hopefully you should have received the €15 sent by post - unfortunately we had to send it in this way, as our bank wanted to charge us €20 to send it to you electronically! This can't be happening And in fact an envelope containing a 10 and a 5 euro note arrived somewhat later. As a little defence to the OpenBSD store guys: the banking system in the UK is by far the crappiest I have seen in whole of Europe. The banks are all intentionally incompetent and try to fool and trick you into using non-SEPA style money transfers wherever they can. Most UK citizens, even online shops, are misinformed and mistreated by their banks, with the result that the banks can charge horrendous fees and cheat on exchange rates. A little funny experience: my online banking system from HSBC shuts down accepting SEPA money transfers outside of regular business hours. I have to wait until Monday morning to _enter_ a SEPA money transfer. It looks like their CPUs get the weekend off. That is how crappy the UK banking system is. And the most scary thing: the people here think this is normal ... Bernd
Re: my experience with openbsdstore.com
2015-04-11 17:08 GMT+02:00 Bernd Schoeller ber...@fams.de: As a little defence to the OpenBSD store guys: the banking system in the UK is by far the crappiest I have seen in whole of Europe. The banks are all Small wonder since Airstrip One seems to believe it's not in Europe. Maybe the OpenBSD store should move to Europe proper. Best Martin
Re: my experience with openbsdstore.com
Can openbsdstore start taking bitcoin? --- âLanie, Iâm going to print more printers. Lots more printers. One for everyone. Thatâs worth going to jail for. Thatâs worth anything.â - Printcrime by Cory Doctrow Please avoid sending me Word or PowerPoint attachments. See http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html On Sat, Apr 11, 2015 at 4:08 PM, Bernd Schoeller ber...@fams.de wrote: On 11/04/15 14:01, IMAP List Administration wrote: Transfer Costs More Than Refund The next missive from openbsdstore.com was: Hopefully you should have received the ââ¬15 sent by post - unfortunately we had to send it in this way, as our bank wanted to charge us ââ¬20 to send it to you electronically! This can't be happening And in fact an envelope containing a 10 and a 5 euro note arrived somewhat later. As a little defence to the OpenBSD store guys: the banking system in the UK is by far the crappiest I have seen in whole of Europe. The banks are all intentionally incompetent and try to fool and trick you into using non-SEPA style money transfers wherever they can. Most UK citizens, even online shops, are misinformed and mistreated by their banks, with the result that the banks can charge horrendous fees and cheat on exchange rates. A little funny experience: my online banking system from HSBC shuts down accepting SEPA money transfers outside of regular business hours. I have to wait until Monday morning to _enter_ a SEPA money transfer. It looks like their CPUs get the weekend off. That is how crappy the UK banking system is. And the most scary thing: the people here think this is normal ... Bernd
Re: my experience with openbsdstore.com
On 2015-04-11, IMAP List Administration li...@y42.org wrote: I am requested to provide bank details. Fair enough. I provide my IBAN (int'l bank account number) and BIC/SWIFT (unique bank ID) details. These two items are sufficient to transfer money *anywhere* within the EU (In fact, the IBAN alone is sufficient, as it contains the bank code). This is made possible by SEPA. Money? No, SEPA is more specific, it is for Euros. The UK is in SEPA but SEPA isn't used for transactions in Pounds Sterling. So it depends on the currency donomination of the receiving account as to whether it applies.
