Re: an unusual [job request] + taking mod_perl to the commercial world
On Sun, 29 Apr 2001 13:52:05 +0800 Gunther Birznieks [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I completely agree with the assertion that applications sell the underlying technology. History teaches us that to be indisputable. Also while applications should be an overall part of the vision, it may not have to be there right from the start. I have been peeking in at Enhydra from time to time and I remeber in the beginning all they had was the framework consisting of the multi-server, xmlc and perhaps DODS. Now i see they have complete apps like Brock, jFAQ, and the fairly complete golf store application all of which could be, as YABW (yet another buzz word) says, repurposed. Same is true of Zope where apps are emerging only now. The tutorial is a terrific example of a zope app. Perhaps the roadmaps followed by these two opensource camps will have great lessons for mod_perl. As the technology catches on the core-developers could form a company for support, training etc as shown by Lutris for Enhydra and Digital Creations for Zope. That seems like the validation corporations look for. moral: lay a great foundation and they will build :) -bakki I would like to restate that while I think these engines are cool and useful, that they are not the things that bring the masses to your platform. This was the point I was making. I am not naysaying projects like Enhydra, but just stated that they are not as directly useful for bringing the masses to the platform. While it is true that an Enhydra type of engine makes writing application easier, what you really still always need in order to gain a critical mass is something more concrete that the masses can hook onto. I am not talking about techies loving mod_perl or Enhydra or AxKit. But everyday webmasters and CIOs saying XYZ platform has so many applications for it I can see them demoed, my tech staff can install them within a day so let's use it. There are just certain things that are harder to market than others. Applications make platforms easier to market because it shows off the power. I was not at the meeting, but I heard Stas convinced one of our clients to go with mod_perl by showing them a site he created called SinglesHeaven in CGI and then in mod_perl. Look how fast it is and you can see it's a real application. Showing the same people benchmarks of hello world and template renderings generally do not have the same effect. -- .-.| Bakki Kudva__Open Source EDMS__ oo|| Navaco ph: 814-833-2592 /`'\| 420 Pasadena Drive fax: 603-947-5747 (\_;/) | Erie, PA 16505 http://www.navaco.com/
Re: an unusual [job request] + taking mod_perl to the commercial world
Often quite a number of developers are all at work, and they don't all merit the kind of trust that mod_perl requires. See Phillippe Chiasson's talk @ ApacheCon. Lots of developers checking out release controlled Apache, perl, and application. Neat stuff. John [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: an unusual [job request] + taking mod_perl to the commercial world
On Sun, Apr 29, 2001 at 01:37:52PM +0800, Gunther Birznieks wrote: At 09:06 AM 4/28/01 -0400, barries wrote: Not sure either, except that this would be more targeted towards specific research projects, as opposed to the build a venue and they will come SourceXchange model. I guess my understanding of SourceXChange is that it was also for research projects and additions to existing open source projects. I meant that SourceXchange wasn't promoting a particular RD effort, they were trying to be a clearinghouse (not a bad thing, but a different thing). Stas (co.) has the advantage that advocacy is part of the intent, so by promoting mod_perl, he raises interest in his own availability, and by promoting his availability, he promotes mod_perl. He doesn't need to get bogged down in structuring a market and attracting business to a marketplace, he can focus on selling himself, his cohorts, and mod_perl. I think what Stas may want to do is write up a list of things that he wants to do with mod_perl if he were given 6 months or a year of salary to do whatever he wanted. *nod* - Barrie
Re: an unusual [job request] + taking mod_perl to the commercial world
On Sat, Apr 28, 2001 at 12:16:18PM +0800, Gunther Birznieks wrote: If the person being sponsored by grants is a foreigner to the US, but wishes to be in the US Agreed, but I don't think that's a roadblock, just a situation to be dealt with. mod_perl infrastructure seems to be the kind of project that can be done on a distributed basis. Geographic proximity helps, no doubt, but that shouldn't stop work. We might need US staff, but I'm not sure where the fingers tap on the keys matters as long as they're talented fingers in the context of a project and community that has already proven to work well in a distributed manner. Of course, the location of the person or person(s) being sponsored may make a big difference in being able to be sponsored. Doug, would you sponser Stas a spot on your couch for, say, a 5 year work commitment from him? ;-). Or would be actually apply a set of grants... I would like a company to sponsor this XYZ feature. That's what I meant by feature purchases below, not that it was at all clear :-/. Though I envisioned it more like talks might be opened with a company and a mutually beneficial feature set might emerge from that. For instance, I've been wondering about using fam/imon[1] to make it so that Apache::Reload and templating and caching systems can have their cake and eat it to: no need to repeatedly stat() the filesystem to know if your source files have change or cached content has become outdated. But then this gets into the Collabnet SourceXChange model which Collabnet just shut down due to lack of capability of making money (I guess). So I am not sure if this would bode well for this type of model on mod_perl. Not sure either, except that this would be more targeted towards specific research projects, as opposed to the build a venue and they will come SourceXchange model. Anyway, this seems promising. Where I know we wouldn't pay money to fund an entire year of Stas developing mod_perl solely, I certainly know that there are probably features I would seriously consider sponsoring. Any others out there that might be interested, let's hear from you :-). My employer's on the rocks, so no easy money there - Barrie [1] http://oss.sgi.com/projects/fam/
Re: an unusual [job request] + taking mod_perl to the commercial world
At 10:41 PM 4/27/01 -0400, barries wrote: On Fri, Apr 27, 2001 at 11:44:49PM +0800, Stas Bekman wrote: Since mod_perl is an open source, it's a tough quest. Basically what I want is get some company that will benefit from me working on open source project full time and pay me a salary. Of course it's probably hard to get a full time open source position, so probably some compromising offer, where we do some 50-75% of the time mod_perl development and the rest doing something else, if it makes the company more happy. As you and others have mentioned here now and in the past, mod_perl needs PR and working apps (which are both good PR and good reasons for others to start using it as a means to an end: like the new Slash code, for instance). I agree 100%. If I might throw my $.02 in, IMHO a part of this marketing should be a more brochureware perl.apache.org. The content there is top notch and I can't say enough good things about it. The amount of documentation is simply amazing and there are many commercial products that aren't as well documented. However, the current site looks like it was designed by a programmer. And I mean no offense, because that is also how my personal site currently looks. :-) I think that perl.apache.org should present a more professional face to corporate people who are looking at using perl/mod_perl. For an example, look at the various java.apache.org sites. They have navigation and are split into multiple sections and pages. Someone took the time to section off the various topics and put together graphics and navigation. I'm sure the amount of data/documentation is the same between say Tomcat and mod_perl, but I prefer the packaging of the java sites. If we are to get more corporate interest in mod_perl, the community should work to present the information about mod_perl in such a way that the managers/business people who make the decisions can reason that mod_perl is a technology they should use. We already know mod_perl is great, we just have to make the rest of the world realize it. Marketing is as much about appearance as capabilities. Just look at the marketing depts that dotcoms put together to hype a product that didn't yet exist! I remember seeing some proofs done by Robin Berjon (I'm sure I'm not spelling it right!) long ago that I really liked. But they were never used AFAIK. I also registered modperlnews.(org|com) a while back with the intention of doing something useful with them, but I have not yet done anything. I also have some time on my hands while I'm searching for a new job, so I am volunteering my time if it's needed or wanted. I'll bet that Template Toolkit (thanks Andy!) would work wonderfully for putting a new face on the site. If the powers that be are interested, I am available to help. And if I'm off track, then tell me and I'll go back to lurking. :-) Such an organization could do (aside from the feature development listed above): - general advocacy: press releases, reference cards, publish articles and sell a qr/this (article|research) funded by (ActiveState|VMWare|Covalent|IBM S/390 Marketing Division|.*)/ credit Drew Taylor mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.drewtaylor.com/
Re: an unusual [job request] + taking mod_perl to the commercial world
On Sat, 28 Apr 2001 09:14:10 +0100 (BST) Matt Sergeant [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Amen to that and there is Enhydra on the Java side. To get the functionality of these two frameworks I'd have to integrate many many CPAN modules, keep track of various versions, make sure each is active etc etc. A nice application framework like Enhydra or zope on mod_perl which is maintained perhaps by all the authors of individual modules would be a great start. bakki Actually there's an exception to this rule. Look at Zope. -- .-.| Bakki Kudva__Open Source EDMS__ oo|| Navaco ph: 814-833-2592 /`'\| 420 Pasadena Drive fax: 603-947-5747 (\_;/) | Erie, PA 16505 http://www.navaco.com/
Re: an unusual [job request] + taking mod_perl to the commercial world
At 14:04 28/04/2001 -0400, Drew Taylor wrote: I remember seeing some proofs done by Robin Berjon (I'm sure I'm not spelling it right!) long ago that I really liked. But they were never used AFAIK. I also registered modperlnews.(org|com) a while back with the intention of doing something useful with them, but I have not yet done anything. I also have some time on my hands while I'm searching for a new job, so I am volunteering my time if it's needed or wanted. I'll bet that Template Toolkit (thanks Andy!) would work wonderfully for putting a new face on the site. If the powers that be are interested, I am available to help. You got the spelling right, and if you hadn't I don't think it would have been a big deal at all. In fact, my (geek) friends call me Berfon since that is how my name appeared in the first Perl Poetry contest that I was credited in ;-) The proofs never made it to the perl.apache.org site for many reasons, one of which being that that's when I changed continents again, another being that there were other people working on it too, and there are probably many other reasons at hand too. Anyway, the proof eventually got used for take23.org which I'm very happy about (well, it was just a proof and there are quite a few things I'd like to change about it, but that's another story). I also helped with axkit.org. I don't think it's professional level as is, but it's probably better than programmer style and until I or someone else has the time to make it better I hope it does the job ok. I'm not going to promise to do things I don't have the time to do, a few years spent in the Open Source community have taught me (the hard way) about that. However, now that my company has grown (and keeps growing despite rumours of a slump -- modperl + xml definitely help) and that I have internal resources other than myself I can offer to create a new proof. The limits of what I can offer are a design proof + templates (in xslt). I don't have enough people yet to take over the maintenance of the whole site. If there's a way we can have some XML publishing on that server then it would be done in little time (note that xml means pod too, thanks to pod2xml). If someone can solve the publishing side of the issue, then I can do the design/templating side. ___ Robin Berjon [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- CTO k n o w s c a p e : // venture knowledge agency www.knowscape.com --- What I like about deadlines is the lovely whooshing sound they make as they rush past. --Douglas Adams
Re: an unusual [job request] + taking mod_perl to the commercial world
barries wrote: Anyway, this seems promising. Where I know we wouldn't pay money to fund an entire year of Stas developing mod_perl solely, I certainly know that there are probably features I would seriously consider sponsoring. Any others out there that might be interested, let's hear from you :-). My employer's on the rocks, so no easy money there I'm finding (while doing consulting work) that, if I already have an in with a firm, I can usually leverage that to work in time training the staff in how to use mod_perl indirectly, by teaching them Embperl first. Embperl ends up being the draw. I find I can take average Perl programmers and get them up and run- ning with Embperl, basically in two sessions. And once they figure out what all they can do - and how quickly all their Perl scripts can transfer - they buy right in. The main hurdle turns out to be working a build of mod_perl into the servers they're using. Often quite a number of developers are all at work, and they don't all merit the kind of trust that mod_perl requires. Mod_perl, though, is a pretty trusting module. -- Richard Goerwitz [EMAIL PROTECTED] tel: 401 438 8978
Re: an unusual [job request] + taking mod_perl to the commercial world
At 09:06 AM 4/28/01 -0400, barries wrote: But then this gets into the Collabnet SourceXChange model which Collabnet just shut down due to lack of capability of making money (I guess). So I am not sure if this would bode well for this type of model on mod_perl. Not sure either, except that this would be more targeted towards specific research projects, as opposed to the build a venue and they will come SourceXchange model. I guess my understanding of SourceXChange is that it was also for research projects and additions to existing open source projects. So the idea is to precisely bring together open source developers and people who want to give grants for adding or creating specific open source projects. Anyway, I am not saying it is impossible. Anyway, I think what Stas may want to do is write up a list of things that he wants to do with mod_perl if he were given 6 months or a year of salary to do whatever he wanted. This would make such a request to have someone pay for his work to be concrete and possibly then endear others to help in a more concrete way. It is also quite possible that people do not realize what improvements should be made to mod_perl (or they would be doing it) and so if Stas has a list of ideas of what to do with mod_perl, then he may inadvertently spark ideas in other people's minds as to what can be done and they would do it. I guess off the top of my head, there are things that Doug has stated he expects other people to write as soon as mod_perl 2.0 is released. So perhaps that could be worked on in parallel with mod_perl 2.0 so that when Apache 2.0 is released, mod_perl 2.0 can be released in a very full-featured way. Later, Gunther
Re: an unusual [job request] + taking mod_perl to the commercial world
At 09:14 AM 4/28/01 +0100, Matt Sergeant wrote: On Sat, 28 Apr 2001, Gunther Birznieks wrote: As I think I mentioned, it's great that the people like you on this list have a passion for delivering cool software. [snipped] People rarely look at toolkits like payment gateways and messaging servers unless there is an application that fits their needs that they can use which happens to use these backend components. Actually there's an exception to this rule. Look at Zope. But Zope has an application? -- content management. A template engine is not an application, but a content management tool built upon templates surely is? I thought you would recognize this as you are building something to allow this on AxKit? Of course, I guess you could consider AxKit an application because presumably it comes with scripts to allow aggregration of news content in RSS format? I consider this a really nice application. But it's also a bit difficult to tell that this is what AxKit does. You might consider separating AxKit the engine from AxKit the applications to allow people to find your site looking for applications (eg news, content management) so that they want to use AxKit. And then when they want to use AxKit, they will want to use mod_perl.
Re: an unusual [job request] + taking mod_perl to the commercial world
I would like to restate that while I think these engines are cool and useful, that they are not the things that bring the masses to your platform. This was the point I was making. I am not naysaying projects like Enhydra, but just stated that they are not as directly useful for bringing the masses to the platform. While it is true that an Enhydra type of engine makes writing application easier, what you really still always need in order to gain a critical mass is something more concrete that the masses can hook onto. I am not talking about techies loving mod_perl or Enhydra or AxKit. But everyday webmasters and CIOs saying XYZ platform has so many applications for it I can see them demoed, my tech staff can install them within a day so let's use it. There are just certain things that are harder to market than others. Applications make platforms easier to market because it shows off the power. I was not at the meeting, but I heard Stas convinced one of our clients to go with mod_perl by showing them a site he created called SinglesHeaven in CGI and then in mod_perl. Look how fast it is and you can see it's a real application. Showing the same people benchmarks of hello world and template renderings generally do not have the same effect. At 11:06 AM 4/28/01 -0400, Bakki Kudva wrote: On Sat, 28 Apr 2001 09:14:10 +0100 (BST) Matt Sergeant [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Amen to that and there is Enhydra on the Java side. To get the functionality of these two frameworks I'd have to integrate many many CPAN modules, keep track of various versions, make sure each is active etc etc. A nice application framework like Enhydra or zope on mod_perl which is maintained perhaps by all the authors of individual modules would be a great start. bakki Actually there's an exception to this rule. Look at Zope.
an unusual [job request] + taking mod_perl to the commercial world
Well, I've talked to a few mod_perl guys over the last conference and by email lately and we have have all agreed that we are quite sick of generating forms and parsing them, no matter what cool toolkit and hype words we are using to do that. So we all are looking at doing core mod_perl, i.e. we want to develop *mod_perl* *itself* and tightly related modules. Since mod_perl is an open source, it's a tough quest. Basically what I want is get some company that will benefit from me working on open source project full time and pay me a salary. Of course it's probably hard to get a full time open source position, so probably some compromising offer, where we do some 50-75% of the time mod_perl development and the rest doing something else, if it makes the company more happy. Definitely I'm aware of the situation in the market. But you know what, look at the history, at any recession times there were always those who continued to prosper. Therefore I believe that some companies not even slowed down, but have accelerated their growth and have enough cash to invest into open source and make probably improve their image. Look for example at Covalent, I don't know all the details, but this company seem to stand strong on its legs. But Covalent has already Doug, so this is out of question. So if your company thinks it can directly or indirectly benefit from having one or more mod_perl experts doing cool mod_perl development, let us know. There are at least 3 people (including me) that want this job. I'm sure that there are many more that will be interested. I've mentioned in the subject that the request is unusual, so please respond only if you think you can stand behind this offer and not promise things that will never become true. I've bitten once on such an offer, and will try not to do the same mistake a second time in a row. Thanks a lot! On the related note, does anybody know about the financial status of Velocigen? How do they sell their products? We think to try to revive this old idea where we create mod_perl company, that will sell mod_perl and support. If Velocigen can do this with a closed source product, I believe we can do even better, especially with the drooling mod_perl 2.0. We have discussed this with I think 6 mod_perl guys about a year ago, but since all of us were programmers, we didn't get anywhere. May be we can come up with some nice business plan, and make a commercial mod_perl branch, boost the awareness of the product, get companies to invest into people developing it and make mod_perl a standard for webserver products. I know that it's a rewishful thinking, but with the right people and right companies I'm sure that everything is possible. I'm sure that you realize the potential of mod_perl. IMHO of course... I'm just a programmer, so if you ask about my business plan, I tell: you find a good business shark and push it forward, we will do the coding. Easy huh, but that's what we are good at -- coding, so we better do that. Anyway, fresh ideas are welcome _ Stas Bekman JAm_pH -- Just Another mod_perl Hacker http://stason.org/ mod_perl Guide http://perl.apache.org/guide mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] http://apachetoday.com http://logilune.com/ http://singlesheaven.com http://perl.apache.org http://perlmonth.com/
Re: an unusual [job request] + taking mod_perl to the commercial world
I think there are two paths... mod_perl needs more market-awareness... it needs a PR and marketing company.. then companies will start using it, then there will be more dreams jobs like you described.. simple fact is, I couldn't name more then 3 companies in my area who use it, and I never expect to do work with it again. Other path--- start your own company who has some product or web based service which uses mod_perl as their platform of choice.. market it, and sell it.. takes capital, but..nothing the collective efforts of an open source community couldn't do... gotta have that idea though.. - Original Message - From: Stas Bekman [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: mod_perl list [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, April 27, 2001 11:44 AM Subject: an unusual [job request] + taking mod_perl to the commercial world Well, I've talked to a few mod_perl guys over the last conference and by email lately and we have have all agreed that we are quite sick of generating forms and parsing them, no matter what cool toolkit and hype words we are using to do that. So we all are looking at doing core mod_perl, i.e. we want to develop *mod_perl* *itself* and tightly related modules. Since mod_perl is an open source, it's a tough quest. Basically what I want is get some company that will benefit from me working on open source project full time and pay me a salary. Of course it's probably hard to get a full time open source position, so probably some compromising offer, where we do some 50-75% of the time mod_perl development and the rest doing something else, if it makes the company more happy. Definitely I'm aware of the situation in the market. But you know what, look at the history, at any recession times there were always those who continued to prosper. Therefore I believe that some companies not even slowed down, but have accelerated their growth and have enough cash to invest into open source and make probably improve their image. Look for example at Covalent, I don't know all the details, but this company seem to stand strong on its legs. But Covalent has already Doug, so this is out of question. So if your company thinks it can directly or indirectly benefit from having one or more mod_perl experts doing cool mod_perl development, let us know. There are at least 3 people (including me) that want this job. I'm sure that there are many more that will be interested. I've mentioned in the subject that the request is unusual, so please respond only if you think you can stand behind this offer and not promise things that will never become true. I've bitten once on such an offer, and will try not to do the same mistake a second time in a row. Thanks a lot! On the related note, does anybody know about the financial status of Velocigen? How do they sell their products? We think to try to revive this old idea where we create mod_perl company, that will sell mod_perl and support. If Velocigen can do this with a closed source product, I believe we can do even better, especially with the drooling mod_perl 2.0. We have discussed this with I think 6 mod_perl guys about a year ago, but since all of us were programmers, we didn't get anywhere. May be we can come up with some nice business plan, and make a commercial mod_perl branch, boost the awareness of the product, get companies to invest into people developing it and make mod_perl a standard for webserver products. I know that it's a rewishful thinking, but with the right people and right companies I'm sure that everything is possible. I'm sure that you realize the potential of mod_perl. IMHO of course... I'm just a programmer, so if you ask about my business plan, I tell: you find a good business shark and push it forward, we will do the coding. Easy huh, but that's what we are good at -- coding, so we better do that. Anyway, fresh ideas are welcome _ Stas Bekman JAm_pH -- Just Another mod_perl Hacker http://stason.org/ mod_perl Guide http://perl.apache.org/guide mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] http://apachetoday.com http://logilune.com/ http://singlesheaven.com http://perl.apache.org http://perlmonth.com/
Re: an unusual [job request] + taking mod_perl to the commercial world
At 12:00 PM 4/27/01 -0400, JR Mayberry wrote: there will be more dreams jobs like you described.. simple fact is, I couldn't name more then 3 companies in my area who use it, and I never expect to do work with it again. ... on the other hand, even as recently as one year ago, it was almost impossible for our company (in southern california) to find mod_perl programmers. Our last few job searches, tho, we've been able to find a *very* good supply of applicants with mod_perl experience... it's no longer been an issue. (Most mod_perl applicants seem to have come by their experience from working on college campuses, BTW... which is another interesting -- and valuable -- change. Not the fact that schools use it, but the _volume_ of applicants who are now learning it there.) So I don't know how exactly it's happened, but mod_perl knowledge seems to have skyrocketed recently, and at least to my mind it's given mod_perl a viability that it didn't have recently. A year ago, we were even talking seriously about moving our development to Java, simply because we could find a lot more Java programmers than Perl programmers, but that tide is definitely turned... we're no longer even considering switching, we have no trouble finding people, and I'm finding investors and corporate officers a *lot* more willing to consider the development and use of open-source tools in general as being a very valid and credible business decision. The use of Apache and mod_perl has made me look very, very smart lately. ;-) I think the key is going to be Perl 6. If it improves the areas they think it will, and if Apache / mod_perl 2.x are themselves the improvements we expect them to be, we may all be pleasantly surprised by a major growth in usage. The market downturn has given people who use open source tools -- Perl, Apache, mySQL, postgreSQL, Linux, etc... a major credibility boost, at least in my own circles -- I think we *might* be in for a pleasant surprise in 1-2 years. :-/ MikeL
Re: an unusual [job request] + taking mod_perl to the commercial world
On Fri, Apr 27, 2001 at 10:01:39AM -0700, Michael Lazzaro wrote: At 12:00 PM 4/27/01 -0400, JR Mayberry wrote: there will be more dreams jobs like you described.. simple fact is, I couldn't name more then 3 companies in my area who use it, and I never expect to do work with it again. ... on the other hand, even as recently as one year ago, it was almost impossible for our company (in southern california) to find mod_perl programmers. Our last few job searches, tho, we've been able to find a *very* good supply of applicants with mod_perl experience... it's no longer been an issue. (Most mod_perl applicants seem to have come by their experience from working on college campuses, BTW... which is another interesting -- and valuable -- change. Not the fact that schools use it, but the _volume_ of applicants who are now learning it there.) well, i suspect a lot of those candidates actually surfaced as other idealab-backed companies either tanked or shifted direction. the death of etoys freed up a number of mod_perl-savvy developers. :) (in all seriousness, though, idealab and many of the companies it has spawned is a mod_perl-friendly place.) and my experience is that you don't need to hire mod_perl experts -- specific skillsets are some distance down on the list of things i look at in hiring someone. given a good framework to develop in, and a good programmer who is willing to learn, mod_perl skills will bloom. but, outside of the linux companies and covalent, i don't know where one would look for a job just developing mod_perl itself. jim
Re: an unusual [job request] + taking mod_perl to the commercial world
Well, you know how I feel. :) But the others don't so... I believe the most crucial and missing approach is to put resources into making ready-made applications that work on mod_perl rather than core mod_perl itself. This is also a problem on Linux, but that's another story. A quantity of applications for mod_perl or that demonstratively show that using mod_perl is a benefit (ie fast) is necessary (and I don't mean tech products like AxKit -- which are great but not what I am talking about) There is very little out there in the various product categories that works as mod_perl registry script. Probably equal in number to the amount of public domain Java servlets! If you talk platforms, PHP has surpassed mod_perl-capable applications. Of course, as you say, you want to work on core mod_perl (not doing forms applications... :)) so that is a different story. But to me, mod_perl is exciting enough at the core level and the work, while it might be cool to do more for v2, is already basically there. But if you want to generate excitement about a platform we have to start at a higher level -- show a suite of complete applications that can run ready made on top of mod_perl to make it obviously enticing to use. I am not talking about AxKit, HTML::Mason, etc. These are tools, not applications or application suites. Programmers on this list and the people who like mod_perl are similar IMHO to the people who like Linux. Constantly interested in improving the core stuff. I think that passion and interest is great. But the problem is bridging the gap that brings the masses to a product and generates a lot more excitement. In marketing, this is called 'Bridging the chasm I think. Most commercial products (not just open source!) follow a life cycle of which one part of the life cycle is extremely difficult to bridge. I am probably going to get the steps wrong because it's been a couple years since I read this book. But the basic idea is this. The first step is the early adopters (this is you Stas -- with running Perl 5.6 before it's stable, being so interesting in mod_perl 2.0 a year before it's out). The second stage consists of the technical few who aren't early adopters, but when the early adopters say something is basically stable enough, the technical few can try it, like it, and start using it. These are most of the people who post regularly on the list (probably someone like me -- I don't like adopting things too early -- I prefer to wait til it's stable -- but I think I like cool technology). The third stage is those that are more pragmatic. Not necessarily the technical elite, but that it is possible for an everyday person to start using the product. This is the stage that mod_perl is at now. I think you are seeing a lot more people who have used mod_perl and are not afraid of it. Then there is popular acceptance. This is the chasm that must be crossed. There are a couple ways that this chasm can be crossed. They all basically entail marketing the product in such a way that the masses feel that are indispensable yet easy to use the new product. I believe having more full-applications delivered that work in a mod_perl environment (at least Apache::Registry format) is one of the keys here. The ideal is rather than individual apps, it could be suites of apps that demonstrate working together (ie SmartWorker, eXtropia, any others?) and capable of running under mod_perl for extra speed. The suites are ideal (but not necessary) because it makes it easier for users to pick up one app and then understand how the other apps work. Most unfortunately, we know SmartWorker had been way-laid by being a startup that needed to pull resources towards a business product (eg opendesk). And I can't say that eXtropia has been that much better in terms of delivery -- although we (Stas) have devoted a lot of time to making sure we have yet another generation of application to deliver in the coming months. So hopefully that will come about before PerlCon. The way our company works though is that we have spurts where we occasionally realize Oh shit, we need to complete XYZ commercial project. So the open source gets delayed again for a bit. Usually our open source development and our software releases tends to following a few months of open source coding and then a few months of not open source coding on the Perl side. This isn't consistent, which isn't nice and ideal, but at least we spend the money and time on it when we can as a company. Actually it's not a matter of money for us anymore (thankfully) as much as that we may get a job that turns out to be big enough that we need more people -- but we can't hire fast enough to do the job that we commit to because the lead time for hiring someone is a minimum a couple weeks of interviews and then that person usually giving a months notice at their current job. Luckily for us, for example, the project that is
Re: an unusual [job request] + taking mod_perl to the commercial world
Well, hopefully the mod_perl community isn't so small that etoys counted as a sizable fraction :) I'm ex etoys Europe and have set up a mod_perl webdev company in London assembling high traffic web sites, so I guess you can count me in as one of them freed up mod_perl people. I was tempted to email Stas, but there's no way I could pay his salary. I'm sure alot of companies out there would kill to have your name associated with them though. Jim Winstead wrote: On Fri, Apr 27, 2001 at 10:01:39AM -0700, Michael Lazzaro wrote: At 12:00 PM 4/27/01 -0400, JR Mayberry wrote: there will be more dreams jobs like you described.. simple fact is, I couldn't name more then 3 companies in my area who use it, and I never expect to do work with it again. ... on the other hand, even as recently as one year ago, it was almost impossible for our company (in southern california) to find mod_perl programmers. Our last few job searches, tho, we've been able to find a *very* good supply of applicants with mod_perl experience... it's no longer been an issue. (Most mod_perl applicants seem to have come by their experience from working on college campuses, BTW... which is another interesting -- and valuable -- change. Not the fact that schools use it, but the _volume_ of applicants who are now learning it there.) well, i suspect a lot of those candidates actually surfaced as other idealab-backed companies either tanked or shifted direction. the death of etoys freed up a number of mod_perl-savvy developers. :) (in all seriousness, though, idealab and many of the companies it has spawned is a mod_perl-friendly place.) and my experience is that you don't need to hire mod_perl experts -- specific skillsets are some distance down on the list of things i look at in hiring someone. given a good framework to develop in, and a good programmer who is willing to learn, mod_perl skills will bloom. but, outside of the linux companies and covalent, i don't know where one would look for a job just developing mod_perl itself. jim -- Mark Maunder [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://swiftcamel.com/ Try not. Do. Or do not. There is no try. ~yoda
Re: an unusual [job request] + taking mod_perl to the commercial world
On Fri, Apr 27, 2001 at 11:44:49PM +0800, Stas Bekman wrote: Since mod_perl is an open source, it's a tough quest. Basically what I want is get some company that will benefit from me working on open source project full time and pay me a salary. Of course it's probably hard to get a full time open source position, so probably some compromising offer, where we do some 50-75% of the time mod_perl development and the rest doing something else, if it makes the company more happy. Another possibility is to try to gather a bit of a consortium together. See if there are several interested companies that might fund half a developer for a year. If you get enough for 4 or 5 developers and some office support, you might be able to make a go of it. Existing Apache/mod_perl support companies might pitch some in, and some that want to make a contribution without committing to permanent staff or longer term could ante up commitments. The commitments could be in the form of guru grants, speaker honoraria, PR grants, feature purchases. H, found a YAS (Yet Another Society) mod_perl wing? See if the community might pitch in to fund Stas and one or two others for 6 months? Not sure if you need to be slightly mad or from down under to pull that on off. Kevin Lenzo's a hell of a nice guy and probably would be happy to offer up some advice. In fact, I think I'll Cc him, and leave the rest of the message attached to backfill, if he's got time to read it... As you and others have mentioned here now and in the past, mod_perl needs PR and working apps (which are both good PR and good reasons for others to start using it as a means to an end: like the new Slash code, for instance). Such an organization could do (aside from the feature development listed above): - general advocacy: press releases, reference cards, publish articles and sell a qr/this (article|research) funded by (ActiveState|VMWare|Covalent|IBM S/390 Marketing Division|.*)/ credit - coporate outreach offer a free or cheap on-site intro to mod_perl technologies to any corporate division - offer a take a mod_perl guru to lunch program - emergency ssh/telnet/onsite problem SWAT services (that's a bit of a stretch). This could be done in partnership with existing firms like Covalent, or (so as not to compete with possible sponors) it could just advocate the availability of them. Heck, just getting market survey type articles published that research who offers what services might help promote these services. - in-depth training Anyway, this turned out to be longer than I intended, just some fuzzy thoughts after a long day... Definitely I'm aware of the situation in the market. But you know what, look at the history, at any recession times there were always those who continued to prosper. Therefore I believe that some companies not even slowed down, but have accelerated their growth and have enough cash to invest into open source and make probably improve their image. Look for example at Covalent, I don't know all the details, but this company seem to stand strong on its legs. But Covalent has already Doug, so this is out of question. So if your company thinks it can directly or indirectly benefit from having one or more mod_perl experts doing cool mod_perl development, let us know. There are at least 3 people (including me) that want this job. I'm sure that there are many more that will be interested. I've mentioned in the subject that the request is unusual, so please respond only if you think you can stand behind this offer and not promise things that will never become true. I've bitten once on such an offer, and will try not to do the same mistake a second time in a row. Thanks a lot! On the related note, does anybody know about the financial status of Velocigen? How do they sell their products? We think to try to revive this old idea where we create mod_perl company, that will sell mod_perl and support. If Velocigen can do this with a closed source product, I believe we can do even better, especially with the drooling mod_perl 2.0. We have discussed this with I think 6 mod_perl guys about a year ago, but since all of us were programmers, we didn't get anywhere. May be we can come up with some nice business plan, and make a commercial mod_perl branch, boost the awareness of the product, get companies to invest into people developing it and make mod_perl a standard for webserver products. I know that it's a rewishful thinking, but with the right people and right companies I'm sure that everything is possible. I'm sure that you realize the potential of mod_perl. IMHO of course... I'm just a programmer, so if you ask about my business plan, I tell: you find a good business shark and push it forward, we will do the coding. Easy huh, but that's what we are good at -- coding, so we better do that. Anyway, fresh ideas are welcome
