Re: I/O Ports E6 on a TurboR: WAS [Phoenix] Re: Phoenix project - The new MSX platform pro-standarization
> ] >The 'JR R8FMOUT'is self modifying. > ] >The music player routines came from Micro Cabin's Princess Maker. In the > ] first > ] >versions of Micro Music the player came from Xak-I. > ] >Frits > ] > ] Okay... and what was your point? > > Perhaps that illusion city does not use any PCM effects for the Music... But isn't port E6 the timer of the MIDI??? I don't get it anymore... I have to face the facts: I'm too dumb for this. Leave me in my misery... ~Grauw "snif..." -- >< email me: [EMAIL PROTECTED] or ICQ: 10196372 visit the Datax homepage at http://datax.cjb.net/ MSX fair Bussum / MSX Marathon homepage: http://msxfair.cjb.net/ >< MSX Mailinglist. To unsubscribe, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and put in the body (not subject) "unsubscribe msx [EMAIL PROTECTED]" (without the quotes :-) Problems? contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] (www.stack.nl/~wiebe/mailinglist/)
Re: I/O Ports E6 on a TurboR: WAS [Phoenix] Re: Phoenix project - The new MSX platform pro-standarization
Dear all, You can find a number of articles about the MSX turbo R in the section 'MCCM Articles' on my homepage. Unfortunately these articles are only available in dutch, but they discuss a lot of the MSX turbo R specific features. Kind regards, Alex Wulms -- Alex Wulms/XelaSoft - MSX of anders NIX - Linux 4 ever See my homepage for info on the *** XSA *** format http://www.inter.nl.net/users/A.P.Wulms MSX Mailinglist. To unsubscribe, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and put in the body (not subject) "unsubscribe msx [EMAIL PROTECTED]" (without the quotes :-) Problems? contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] (www.stack.nl/~wiebe/mailinglist/)
Re: I/O Ports E6 on a TurboR: WAS [Phoenix] Re: Phoenix project - The new MSX platform pro-standarization
] >This is a little piece of Micro Music code: ] > ] [blablabla] ] > ] >The 'JR R8FMOUT'is self modifying. ] >The music player routines came from Micro Cabin's Princess Maker. In the ] first ] >versions of Micro Music the player came from Xak-I. ] >Frits ] ] Okay... and what was your point? Perhaps that illusion city does not use any PCM effects for the Music... Kind regards, Alex Wulms -- Alex Wulms/XelaSoft - MSX of anders NIX - Linux 4 ever See my homepage for info on the *** XSA *** format http://www.inter.nl.net/users/A.P.Wulms MSX Mailinglist. To unsubscribe, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and put in the body (not subject) "unsubscribe msx [EMAIL PROTECTED]" (without the quotes :-) Problems? contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] (www.stack.nl/~wiebe/mailinglist/)
Re: I/O Ports E6 on a TurboR: WAS [Phoenix] Re: Phoenix project - The new MSX platform pro-standarization
>This is a little piece of Micro Music code: > [blablabla] > >The 'JR R8FMOUT'is self modifying. >The music player routines came from Micro Cabin's Princess Maker. In the first >versions of Micro Music the player came from Xak-I. >Frits Okay... and what was your point? ~Grauw -- >< email me: [EMAIL PROTECTED] or ICQ: 10196372 visit the Datax homepage at http://datax.cjb.net/ MSX fair Bussum / MSX Marathon homepage: http://msxfair.cjb.net/ >< MSX Mailinglist. To unsubscribe, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and put in the body (not subject) "unsubscribe msx [EMAIL PROTECTED]" (without the quotes :-) Problems? contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] (www.stack.nl/~wiebe/mailinglist/)
Re: I/O Ports E6 on a TurboR: WAS [Phoenix] Re: Phoenix project - The new MSX platform pro-standarization
This is a little piece of Micro Music code: ; OUTPUT TO MSX-MUSIC --- ; IN: B=REGISTER, A=DATA ; OUT: NOP ; MOD: NOP ; FMOUT: JR R8FMOUT ; ga uit van TURBO-R computer PUSH BC PUSH AF LD A,B LD BC,(FMPORT) OUT (C),A NOP INC C POP AF OUT (C),A POP BC RET FMPORT: DW 7CH R8FMOUT:PUSH BC PUSH AF IN A,(0E6H) LD C,A FMOUT1: IN A,(0E6H) SUB C CP 6 JR C,FMOUT1 LD A,B OUT (7CH),A IN A,(0E6H) LD C,A FMOUT2: IN A,(0E6H) SUB C CP 1 JR C,FMOUT2 POP AF OUT (7DH),A POP BC RET INITFM: LD C,9 LD B,30H INITFM1:LD A,0FH CALL FMOUT INC B DEC C JR NZ,INITFM1 JP INIPSG The 'JR R8FMOUT'is self modifying. The music player routines came from Micro Cabin's Princess Maker. In the first versions of Micro Music the player came from Xak-I. Frits PS. What do you know about port A7 ? Laurens Holst wrote: > The Turbo-R has a timer build in that is increased every 1 microsecond or so. > Maybe 2 or more microseconds, I don't known the exact value. And it did > have something todo with I/O ports E5 / E6, or any number near these numbers. I/O ports E5/E6... that's the timer of the MSX-MIDI. It also has another timer used by the PCM play routines. However, it is only 2-bit or so... > All I know for sure is that when writing into the FM-PAC registers the core code > for playing music uses this timer to wait between two OUT (port),register/value > instructions. If the timer isn't increased than the whole program will lock up. > > This behaviour is also implemented in my own TSR program Micro Music. Oh? What is it??? > The MSX2+ does not have this timer, by my knowledge. Nope... ~Grauw -- >< email me: [EMAIL PROTECTED] or ICQ: 10196372 visit the Datax homepage at http://datax.cjb.net/ MSX fair Bussum / MSX Marathon homepage: http://msxfair.cjb.net/ >< MSX Mailinglist. To unsubscribe, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and put in the body (not subject) "unsubscribe msx [EMAIL PROTECTED]" (without the quotes :-) Problems? contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] (www.stack.nl/~wiebe/mailinglist/)
Re: [Phoenix] Re: Phoenix project - The new MSX platform pro-standarization
> The Turbo-R has a timer build in that is increased every 1 microsecond or so. > Maybe 2 or more microseconds, I don't known the exact value. And it did > have something todo with I/O ports E5 / E6, or any number near these numbers. I/O ports E5/E6... that's the timer of the MSX-MIDI. It also has another timer used by the PCM play routines. However, it is only 2-bit or so... > All I know for sure is that when writing into the FM-PAC registers the core code > for playing music uses this timer to wait between two OUT (port),register/value > instructions. If the timer isn't increased than the whole program will lock up. > > This behaviour is also implemented in my own TSR program Micro Music. Oh? What is it??? > The MSX2+ does not have this timer, by my knowledge. Nope... ~Grauw -- >< email me: [EMAIL PROTECTED] or ICQ: 10196372 visit the Datax homepage at http://datax.cjb.net/ MSX fair Bussum / MSX Marathon homepage: http://msxfair.cjb.net/ >< MSX Mailinglist. To unsubscribe, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and put in the body (not subject) "unsubscribe msx [EMAIL PROTECTED]" (without the quotes :-) Problems? contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] (www.stack.nl/~wiebe/mailinglist/)
RE: [Phoenix] Re: Phoenix project - The new MSX platform pro-standarization
>I have played Illusion City from the start to the end and never heard any PCM >sample on it. I haven't got a clue which MSX turbo R specific feature it >uses. Perhaps the fact that in Japan the MSX turbo R is the only machine with >at least 256kB of main memory. Or perhaps the game needs the speed of the >R800. Who knows? Perhaps the programmer of the MSX turbo R emulator can tell >it to us? I think PCM is not used. About speed, try to desactivate R800 while playing and you'll why this game is for turbo R :) Regards, Manuel MSX Mailinglist. To unsubscribe, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and put in the body (not subject) "unsubscribe msx [EMAIL PROTECTED]" (without the quotes :-) Problems? contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] (www.stack.nl/~wiebe/mailinglist/)
Re: [Phoenix] Re: Phoenix project - The new MSX platform pro-standarization
Alex Wulms wrote: > I have played Illusion City from the start to the end and never heard any PCM > sample on it. I haven't got a clue which MSX turbo R specific feature it Could it be the music? I once did a simulation and only could get a drumset similar to IC's one with a sampled kickdrum + PSG noise chan- nel. I think IC's music is rather unusual in sound resources, even for a MicroCabin's sound- track. []s, Parn MSX Mailinglist. To unsubscribe, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and put in the body (not subject) "unsubscribe msx [EMAIL PROTECTED]" (without the quotes :-) Problems? contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] (www.stack.nl/~wiebe/mailinglist/)
Re: [Phoenix] Re: Phoenix project - The new MSX platform pro-standarization
At 23:07 24/07/99 +0200, you wrote: >] >> Turbo R ST doesn't have MIDI, only GT has. So I guess Illusion City can do >] >> without. I'm not sure if it uses PCM, I played for only a little while. >] >Oh. Well, Daniel says it did. >I have played Illusion City from the start to the end and never heard any PCM >sample on it. I haven't got a clue which MSX turbo R specific feature it >uses. Perhaps the fact that in Japan the MSX turbo R is the only machine with >at least 256kB of main memory. Or perhaps the game needs the speed of the >R800. Who knows? Perhaps the programmer of the MSX turbo R emulator can tell >it to us? As I've been told, Illusion City was developed by Microcabin specifically 4 the T-R because Panasonic needed some software which used some of the new 'features' of its new computer... Only this. Ricardo Jurczyk Pinheiro - ICQ UIN:3635907 - [EMAIL PROTECTED]|_Sola Scriptura | http://i.am/rjp -M.Sc. Numerical Modelling (hope so!) |_ Sola Gratia | UFF - Niteroi - RJ - Brazil - [EMAIL PROTECTED]_| Sola Fide | MSX, ST, B5, X-F, Anime, Christian, Maths, CuD, Linux!_| Solo Cristi | Christian, Rock, Comics, Transformers, and hate M$! | Soli Deo Gloria | After B5... Phrase found painted in a wall in Brasilia: "Remember Biri" MSX Mailinglist. To unsubscribe, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and put in the body (not subject) "unsubscribe msx [EMAIL PROTECTED]" (without the quotes :-) Problems? contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] (www.stack.nl/~wiebe/mailinglist/)
Re: [Phoenix] Re: Phoenix project - The new MSX platform pro-standarization
At 10:51 22/07/99 +0200, you wrote: >> > So, www.xxx.cjb.net is an alias for xxx.cjb.net, which again is an alias >> for >> > another URL/computer. >> >> Well that could be, but it could also be that only www.xxx.cjb.net exists >> and that Internet Explorer automatically tries www.xxx.cjb.net if >> xxx.cjb.net is not found. So it could as well be a client-side as a >> server-side alias. > >lynx phoenix.cjb.net works. No www needed! So why would internet explorer (or >whatever) put www in front of it? Internerd Exploder is fudeba. Ricardo Jurczyk Pinheiro - ICQ UIN:3635907 - [EMAIL PROTECTED]|_Sola Scriptura | http://i.am/rjp -M.Sc. Numerical Modelling (hope so!) |_ Sola Gratia | UFF - Niteroi - RJ - Brazil - [EMAIL PROTECTED]_| Sola Fide | MSX, ST, B5, X-F, Anime, Christian, Maths, CuD, Linux!_| Solo Cristi | Christian, Rock, Comics, Transformers, and hate M$! | Soli Deo Gloria | After B5... Phrase found painted in a wall in Brasilia: "Remember Biri" MSX Mailinglist. To unsubscribe, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and put in the body (not subject) "unsubscribe msx [EMAIL PROTECTED]" (without the quotes :-) Problems? contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] (www.stack.nl/~wiebe/mailinglist/)
Re: [Phoenix] Re: Phoenix project - The new MSX platform pro-standarization
The Turbo-R has a timer build in that is increased every 1 microsecond or so. Maybe 2 or more microseconds, I don't known the exact value. And it did have something todo with I/O ports E5 / E6, or any number near these numbers. All I know for sure is that when writing into the FM-PAC registers the core code for playing music uses this timer to wait between two OUT (port),register/value instructions. If the timer isn't increased than the whole program will lock up. This behaviour is also implemented in my own TSR program Micro Music. The MSX2+ does not have this timer, by my knowledge. Laurens Holst wrote: > > ] >> Turbo R ST doesn't have MIDI, only GT has. So I guess Illusion City > can do > > ] >> without. I'm not sure if it uses PCM, I played for only a little > while. > > ] >Oh. Well, Daniel says it did. > > I have played Illusion City from the start to the end and never heard any > PCM > > sample on it. I haven't got a clue which MSX turbo R specific feature it > > uses. Perhaps the fact that in Japan the MSX turbo R is the only machine > with > > at least 256kB of main memory. Or perhaps the game needs the speed of the > > R800. Who knows? Perhaps the programmer of the MSX turbo R emulator can > tell > > it to us? > > Well at least it uses some 'new' instructions in the loader, but they are > all LD IXh and IYh-alike instructions, which are also available on the Z80. > > I will proceed disassembling, to look if I can find the tricky thing why it > doesn't run on an MSX2+... > > ~Grauw > > -- > >< > email me: [EMAIL PROTECTED] or ICQ: 10196372 > visit the Datax homepage at http://datax.cjb.net/ > MSX fair Bussum / MSX Marathon homepage: http://msxfair.cjb.net/ > >< > > > MSX Mailinglist. To unsubscribe, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and put > in the body (not subject) "unsubscribe msx [EMAIL PROTECTED]" (without the > quotes :-) Problems? contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] (www.stack.nl/~wiebe/mailinglist/) > MSX Mailinglist. To unsubscribe, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and put in the body (not subject) "unsubscribe msx [EMAIL PROTECTED]" (without the quotes :-) Problems? contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] (www.stack.nl/~wiebe/mailinglist/)
Re: Phoenix project - The new MSX platform pro-standarization
At 10:00 PM 07/23/99 +0200, you wrote: >>Why would he have to use OPL4? It would certainly be more expensive, >>because the instrument ROM costs money (copyrights) and SRAM isn't cheap >>either, especially 512K ICs. And probably the OPL3 itself is cheaper than >>OPL4. > >Hum the actual price for 512K SRAM 70ns DIP is 160Fr (divide by 3.3 for >Dutch Gulden) Is it? Only a short time ago it was about 80 guilders (+/- $40). Are you talking of the price of a single IC or of large quantities? Bye, Maarten MSX Mailinglist. To unsubscribe, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and put in the body (not subject) "unsubscribe msx [EMAIL PROTECTED]" (without the quotes :-) Problems? contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] (www.stack.nl/~wiebe/mailinglist/)
Re: [Phoenix] Re: Phoenix project - The new MSX platform pro-standarization
] As you point out, the only reasons are speed and -maybe- memory. The game I ] heard that is compressed, and the text is compressed and encrypted, hence ] Oasis never even attempted a translation. Sigh... The text is not compressed and not encrypted. Oasis had a look at it, but the game is just too hard to translate. There is simply not enough space to replace the compact kanji text (in which two kanjisigns can form an entire word) with the long alphabet-based text system (in which you need many characters to form a single word) that we are used too. Kind regards, Alex Wulms -- Alex Wulms/XelaSoft - MSX of anders NIX - Linux 4 ever See my homepage for info on the *** XSA *** format http://www.inter.nl.net/users/A.P.Wulms MSX Mailinglist. To unsubscribe, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and put in the body (not subject) "unsubscribe msx [EMAIL PROTECTED]" (without the quotes :-) Problems? contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] (www.stack.nl/~wiebe/mailinglist/)
RE: [Phoenix] Re: Phoenix project - The new MSX platform pro-standarization
Hello Alex > I have played Illusion City from the start to the end and never heard any PCM > sample on it. And you are right. >I haven't got a clue which MSX turbo R specific feature it uses. Losing reflexes? Tsk tsk... ;)) > Perhaps the fact that in Japan the MSX turbo R is the only machine with > at least 256kB of main memory. Or perhaps the game needs the speed of the > R800. Who knows? Perhaps the programmer of the MSX turbo R emulator can tell > it to us? As you point out, the only reasons are speed and -maybe- memory. The game I heard that is compressed, and the text is compressed and encrypted, hence Oasis never even attempted a translation. Sigh... CYA MSX Mailinglist. To unsubscribe, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and put in the body (not subject) "unsubscribe msx [EMAIL PROTECTED]" (without the quotes :-) Problems? contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] (www.stack.nl/~wiebe/mailinglist/)
Re: [Phoenix] Re: Phoenix project - The new MSX platform pro-standarization
> ] >> Turbo R ST doesn't have MIDI, only GT has. So I guess Illusion City can do > ] >> without. I'm not sure if it uses PCM, I played for only a little while. > ] >Oh. Well, Daniel says it did. > I have played Illusion City from the start to the end and never heard any PCM > sample on it. I haven't got a clue which MSX turbo R specific feature it > uses. Perhaps the fact that in Japan the MSX turbo R is the only machine with > at least 256kB of main memory. Or perhaps the game needs the speed of the > R800. Who knows? Perhaps the programmer of the MSX turbo R emulator can tell > it to us? Well at least it uses some 'new' instructions in the loader, but they are all LD IXh and IYh-alike instructions, which are also available on the Z80. I will proceed disassembling, to look if I can find the tricky thing why it doesn't run on an MSX2+... ~Grauw -- >< email me: [EMAIL PROTECTED] or ICQ: 10196372 visit the Datax homepage at http://datax.cjb.net/ MSX fair Bussum / MSX Marathon homepage: http://msxfair.cjb.net/ >< MSX Mailinglist. To unsubscribe, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and put in the body (not subject) "unsubscribe msx [EMAIL PROTECTED]" (without the quotes :-) Problems? contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] (www.stack.nl/~wiebe/mailinglist/)
Re: [Phoenix] Re: Phoenix project - The new MSX platform pro-standarization
] >> Turbo R ST doesn't have MIDI, only GT has. So I guess Illusion City can do ] >> without. I'm not sure if it uses PCM, I played for only a little while. ] >Oh. Well, Daniel says it did. I have played Illusion City from the start to the end and never heard any PCM sample on it. I haven't got a clue which MSX turbo R specific feature it uses. Perhaps the fact that in Japan the MSX turbo R is the only machine with at least 256kB of main memory. Or perhaps the game needs the speed of the R800. Who knows? Perhaps the programmer of the MSX turbo R emulator can tell it to us? Kind regards, Alex Wulms -- Alex Wulms/XelaSoft - MSX of anders NIX - Linux 4 ever See my homepage for info on the *** XSA *** format http://www.inter.nl.net/users/A.P.Wulms MSX Mailinglist. To unsubscribe, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and put in the body (not subject) "unsubscribe msx [EMAIL PROTECTED]" (without the quotes :-) Problems? contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] (www.stack.nl/~wiebe/mailinglist/)
Re: Phoenix project - The new MSX platform pro-standarization
>>By the way, there was some guy (dunno where) developing an OPL3 board!!! >>Aargh! Let us make it MoonSound-compatible and convince this guy to use >>OPL4!!! (which can still be achieved). > >Why would he have to use OPL4? It would certainly be more expensive, >because the instrument ROM costs money (copyrights) and SRAM isn't cheap >either, especially 512K ICs. And probably the OPL3 itself is cheaper than >OPL4. Hum the actual price for 512K SRAM 70ns DIP is 160Fr (divide by 3.3 for Dutch Gulden) >I would have no problems as long as the OPL3 board would be compatible with >the OPL3 part of the MoonSound, which means it would have to use the same >I/O addresses. In that way, a single program could play music on both, FM >only ofcourse. > >Bye, > Maarten > > greetings, Martial. MSX Mailinglist. To unsubscribe, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and put in the body (not subject) "unsubscribe msx [EMAIL PROTECTED]" (without the quotes :-) Problems? contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] (www.stack.nl/~wiebe/mailinglist/)
Re: [Phoenix] Re: Phoenix project - The new MSX platform pro-standarization
> Changing the code has to be done for every program. It would probably have > to be done partly manually. And the modified program won't run on turbo R > anymore. As if I care... They can still use the original. ~Grauw -- >< email me: [EMAIL PROTECTED] or ICQ: 10196372 visit the Datax homepage at http://datax.cjb.net/ MSX fair Bussum / MSX Marathon homepage: http://msxfair.cjb.net/ >< MSX Mailinglist. To unsubscribe, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and put in the body (not subject) "unsubscribe msx [EMAIL PROTECTED]" (without the quotes :-) Problems? contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] (www.stack.nl/~wiebe/mailinglist/)
Re: [Phoenix] Re: Phoenix project - The new MSX platform pro-standarization
> > So, to come back to what you're saying: > > > However, did you know you can skip the www in www.phoenix.cjb.net > > > > So, www.xxx.cjb.net is an alias for xxx.cjb.net, which again is an alias > for > > another URL/computer. > > Well that could be, but it could also be that only www.xxx.cjb.net exists > and that Internet Explorer automatically tries www.xxx.cjb.net if > xxx.cjb.net is not found. So it could as well be a client-side as a > server-side alias. lynx phoenix.cjb.net works. No www needed! So why would internet explorer (or whatever) put www in front of it? > > So this is not true, and even not logical to do. > > No, I meant something different than I said. I meant that they auto-add www > in front of it if the URL is not found. Would that make sense then? Might be. Lynx doesn't do it, although it tries to guess if the URL given doesn't exists. Netscape 3.01 (Unix) also doesn't. (It doesn't guess at all) > > So, no! No-one has to add 'www' to an URL if it doesn't start with it, > since > > then it would be a different URL! > > Yeah yeah okay. All depends on if it's aliased on server- or client-side. > > I mean, in Internet Explorer even simply typing yahoo will work! It will > first try yahoo. Won't work. Then tries www.yahoo won't work. Then tries > www.yahoo.com and yes it works! Halleluja! > That's client-side aliasing. Hmm, when I try "lynx yahoo", I get on the page of WIde Access (Host provider). When I try "lynx infoseek" it goes to infoseek.go.com... Funny. But OK, this is getting too off-topic! Grtjs, Manuel ((m)ICQ UIN 41947405) PS: MSX 4 EVER! (Questions? See: http://www.faq.msxnet.org/) PPS: Visit my homepage at http://www.sci.kun.nl/marie/home/manuelbi/ MSX Mailinglist. To unsubscribe, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and put in the body (not subject) "unsubscribe msx [EMAIL PROTECTED]" (without the quotes :-) Problems? contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] (www.stack.nl/~wiebe/mailinglist/)
Re: [Phoenix] Phoenix project - The new MSX platform pro-standarization
On Wed, 21 Jul 1999 21:17:43, Ricardo Jurczyk Pinheiro wrote: >> http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Hardware/1985/ >> It was the better that I can do... 1985 is a nice number, huh? (-: > Maybe 'cause MSX arrived in Brazil in 1985... > =) Perfect! 10 for you! (-: []'s Daniel Caetano MSX Mailinglist. To unsubscribe, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and put in the body (not subject) "unsubscribe msx [EMAIL PROTECTED]" (without the quotes :-) Problems? contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] (www.stack.nl/~wiebe/mailinglist/)
Re: [Phoenix] Phoenix project - The new MSX platform pro-standarization
On Wed, 21 Jul 1999 21:17:43, Ricardo Jurczyk Pinheiro wrote: >> http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Hardware/1985/ >> It was the better that I can do... 1985 is a nice number, huh? (-: > Maybe 'cause MSX arrived in Brazil in 1985... > =) Perfect! 10 for you! (-: []'s Daniel Caetano MSX Mailinglist. To unsubscribe, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and put in the body (not subject) "unsubscribe msx [EMAIL PROTECTED]" (without the quotes :-) Problems? contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] (www.stack.nl/~wiebe/mailinglist/)
Re: [Phoenix] Phoenix project - The new MSX platform pro-standarization
At 19:07 20/07/99 -0300, you wrote: > All of them redirect to > > http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Hardware/1985/ > > It was the better that I can do... 1985 is a nice number, huh? (-: Maybe 'cause MSX arrived in Brazil in 1985... =) Ricardo Jurczyk Pinheiro - ICQ UIN:3635907 - [EMAIL PROTECTED]|_Sola Scriptura | http://i.am/rjp -M.Sc. Numerical Modelling (hope so!) |_ Sola Gratia | UFF - Niteroi - RJ - Brazil - [EMAIL PROTECTED]_| Sola Fide | MSX, ST, B5, X-F, Anime, Christian, Maths, CuD, Linux!_| Solo Cristi | Christian, Rock, Comics, Transformers, and hate M$! | Soli Deo Gloria | After B5... Phrase found painted in a wall in Brasilia: "Remember Biri" MSX Mailinglist. To unsubscribe, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and put in the body (not subject) "unsubscribe msx [EMAIL PROTECTED]" (without the quotes :-) Problems? contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] (www.stack.nl/~wiebe/mailinglist/)
Re: R: Phoenix project - The new MSX platform pro-standarization
> The public discussion about Uzix did get them permission to use Alex Wulms' > Fast Copy drivers for direct FDC access. Well, I presume that Alex is very busy now, since he didn't reply my mail asking him the sources of Fast Copy FDC drivers. :) Adriano Camargo Rodrigues da Cunha ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) Engenharia de Computacao - UNICAMP http://www.adrpage.cjb.net MSX-TR:I have one.And you? * My dog is named SysAdmin. It never takes care of when I call. * MSX Mailinglist. To unsubscribe, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and put in the body (not subject) "unsubscribe msx [EMAIL PROTECTED]" (without the quotes :-) Problems? contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] (www.stack.nl/~wiebe/mailinglist/)
Re: [Phoenix] Re: Phoenix project - The new MSX platform pro-standarization
Maarten ter Huurne wrote: > > At 08:36 PM 7/20/99 +0200, you wrote: > > >why not make some kind of mappingdevice (before the cpu) to map r800 ops > >to z380 equivalents and remap all z380 ops that are used differently by > >r800 to completely different ops. > > Won't work. > The reason is that the Z380 doesn't indicate whether it's fetching > instructions or data. Instructions sound be remapped, data shouldn't. But > there is no way you can see which is which. stupid of me... i should have known.. i do ml i guess i was totally hyped by the phoenix stuff.. hehehe greetz aka MSX Mailinglist. To unsubscribe, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and put in the body (not subject) "unsubscribe msx [EMAIL PROTECTED]" (without the quotes :-) Problems? contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] (www.stack.nl/~wiebe/mailinglist/)
Re: [Phoenix] Re: Phoenix project - The new MSX platform pro-standarization
On Wed, 21 Jul 1999 17:37:20 +0200, Laurens Holst wrote: >> So, to come back to what you're saying: >> > However, did you know you can skip the www in www.phoenix.cjb.net >> So, www.xxx.cjb.net is an alias for xxx.cjb.net, which again is an alias >for another URL/computer. >Well that could be, but it could also be that only www.xxx.cjb.net exists >and that Internet Explorer automatically tries www.xxx.cjb.net if >xxx.cjb.net is not found. So it could as well be a client-side as a >server-side alias. No. In the unique case of CJB.NET, you can always use with or without the WWW, Both ways go to the same page. []'s Daniel Caetano MSX Mailinglist. To unsubscribe, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and put in the body (not subject) "unsubscribe msx [EMAIL PROTECTED]" (without the quotes :-) Problems? contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] (www.stack.nl/~wiebe/mailinglist/)
Re: [Phoenix] Re: Phoenix project - The new MSX platform pro-standarization
At 08:36 PM 7/20/99 +0200, you wrote: >why not make some kind of mappingdevice (before the cpu) to map r800 ops >to z380 equivalents and remap all z380 ops that are used differently by >r800 to completely different ops. Won't work. The reason is that the Z380 doesn't indicate whether it's fetching instructions or data. Instructions sound be remapped, data shouldn't. But there is no way you can see which is which. Even if it would work, it would be slow things down a lot. Bye, Maarten MSX Mailinglist. To unsubscribe, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and put in the body (not subject) "unsubscribe msx [EMAIL PROTECTED]" (without the quotes :-) Problems? contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] (www.stack.nl/~wiebe/mailinglist/)
Re: [Phoenix] Re: Phoenix project - The new MSX platform pro-standarization
At 08:47 PM 7/20/99 +0200, you wrote: >> Easier said than done. How can you tell apart an opcode from a sequence of >> data bytes? Example: a byte with contents #3E, does it mean "LD A,n" or >> does it mean the number 62? >> Maybe an adapted emulator could report all addresses of executed R800 >> instructions... > >No, no, in contrary. It's quite easy. First, all those instructions have >multi-byte opcode, don't they? Do the chance you get something wrong is >already minimized. Probality of a two-byte code popping up in a random stream are 2^-16. Ofcourse a game isn't random data, but I have no idea whether that will increase or decrease the probality. Anyway, disk-sized games have a lot more data than code. You can expect about 10 false hits per disk. As you said, when you examine the area around it it's usually easy to see if it's code or not. But it would have to be done manually and it would take time. It's similar to the process of cracking megaroms. >Yeah, okay, that's cool. But not the OPL4-way, because the OPL4 sampleunit >really SUCKS!!! It can play nice samples but there are three disadvantages: >1. The sample always has to loop at the end, you can't just let it stop. That's not a real problem, because you don't have to loop the entire sample. You can simply add some silence at the end and loop that. >2. Therefor, the OPL4 can't generate an interrupt if the sample is finished, >and "Therefore" is not true. The MSX-AUDIO can loop samples and generate an interrupt when the looping happens. >3. You can't play sound and access the SampleRAM at the same time. This is a real problem. >What I'm trying to say is for example in case of a >screensplit: try not to assume it arrived at a certain line after some >initializations before the real lineinterrupt, but keep track of the amount >of H_BLANKs, even if this makes you to put the screensplit a few 'lines' >higher. The amount of H_BLANKs doesn't have to be the same every interrupt. For example if the interrupts were disabled to a while, it can be longer. Or image an interrupt routine that doesn't execute the exact same code every time. Or a future MSX system with a cache. What I do is estimate a worst case, say 4 lines. I put the initial line interrupt 4 lines before the real line. When the interrupt occurs, I put the real line in the line interrupt register and start polling the line interrupt status. >1. Can this archive easily be automated? (a program which copies the >messages, eventually filters them and auto-uploads them to a server, in the >right directory, right layout?), and I think so. We could ask Sean, I bet he didn't upload all those mails manually. >2. This summary would be a hell of a job. The number of today's messages for >example was 43 (!!!). Well okay three days ago I only recieved 8 but still, >eh? Although ofcourse only the messages with [Phoenix] in the subject have >to be summarized. It would be a lot of work, but not too much. Large parts of messages do not have to be part of the summary. And someone actively following the Phoenix discussion would read all messages anyway. I think a summary is really useful, both for the people discussing and as a kind of "newsletter" to the outside world. Rotating the summary task between people sounds like a good idea to me. >By the way, why is WWW.MSX.COM still not occupied? It definately is a nice >URL, and more logic then, for example, www.msxnet.org or www.msx.org . .org is for non-profit organisations, .com for commercial ones. I'm not sure if there is a kind of law enforcing it or that it's just guidelines, but anyway that's the logic behind it. >Hey, if we think this is a good idea, and we can get some people go for it, >donating some money (I am willing to pay about 10 to 25 bucks monthly or so >for it, provided I am one of the webmasters :)). Sorry to disappoint you, but I'm not willing to spend that amount of money for that purpose. But if there are enough people who do, please go ahead and centralize those useful MSX information sites. Simply give the people who already provide those services an account on the new server. And give some disk space to Arnaud, so he doesn't have to move his files around from one free web space provider to another... Bye, Maarten MSX Mailinglist. To unsubscribe, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and put in the body (not subject) "unsubscribe msx [EMAIL PROTECTED]" (without the quotes :-) Problems? contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] (www.stack.nl/~wiebe/mailinglist/)
Re: [Phoenix] Re: Phoenix project - The new MSX platform pro-standarization
> DNS servers/entries don't have to start with www at all! There are plenty of > URL's whcih doesn't (and can't) start with www. E.g., there is a computer on > the university here, called studs. If I run a httpd (HTTP daemon) on it (thus: > a http server), you should use the URL: http://studs.sci.kun.nl/ to reach it! > With 'www' before it, it will not work. No, then it would actually access the > computer named "www", instead of "studs"! You can ofcourse make it work with > www to do some aliassing But in general it's nonsense that all URL's start > with 'www' and browsers shouldn't put 'www' in front of the URL automaticly. > The browsers I use don't do that! Lynx and Netscape 3.01 (Unix) don't. Well okay but if an URL is not found at least Internet Explorer automatically adds www in front of it. But anyways nice to know. > So, to come back to what you're saying: > > However, did you know you can skip the www in www.phoenix.cjb.net > > So, www.xxx.cjb.net is an alias for xxx.cjb.net, which again is an alias for > another URL/computer. Well that could be, but it could also be that only www.xxx.cjb.net exists and that Internet Explorer automatically tries www.xxx.cjb.net if xxx.cjb.net is not found. So it could as well be a client-side as a server-side alias. > > think the DNS servers support this (have to look that up), > > Support what?? Does this make any sense? No. Sorry. I have just still not looked at the DNS-part of internet (project "i" is still using IP-adresses only) > > practically all browsers automatically add www to it > > So this is not true, and even not logical to do. No, I meant something different than I said. I meant that they auto-add www in front of it if the URL is not found. > >And the users of browsers who don't do that (I don't know one) will > >probably know they have to add www to an url if it doesn't start with > >it. > > So, no! No-one has to add 'www' to an URL if it doesn't start with it, since > then it would be a different URL! Yeah yeah okay. All depends on if it's aliased on server- or client-side. I mean, in Internet Explorer even simply typing yahoo will work! It will first try yahoo. Won't work. Then tries www.yahoo won't work. Then tries www.yahoo.com and yes it works! Halleluja! That's client-side aliasing. ~Grauw -- >< email me: [EMAIL PROTECTED] or ICQ: 10196372 visit the Datax homepage at http://datax.cjb.net/ MSX fair Bussum / MSX Marathon homepage: http://msxfair.cjb.net/ >< MSX Mailinglist. To unsubscribe, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and put in the body (not subject) "unsubscribe msx [EMAIL PROTECTED]" (without the quotes :-) Problems? contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] (www.stack.nl/~wiebe/mailinglist/)
Re: [Phoenix] Re: Phoenix project - The new MSX platform pro-standarization
At 07:58 PM 7/20/99 +0200, you wrote: >> It can be made by hardware, because Z380 has a special feature, like an >> interrupt when an unknown command is found... So these instructions can >> be redirected to another single processor that only execute these >> instructions. > >Why not let the software (some small routine(s) in page 3) do that??? Nah, >if some program switches page 3 away or corrupts it it won't work anymore... If trapping would have worked, it would automatically run all R800 programs. Changing the code has to be done for every program. It would probably have to be done partly manually. And the modified program won't run on turbo R anymore. Bye, Maarten MSX Mailinglist. To unsubscribe, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and put in the body (not subject) "unsubscribe msx [EMAIL PROTECTED]" (without the quotes :-) Problems? contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] (www.stack.nl/~wiebe/mailinglist/)
Re: [Phoenix] Re: Phoenix project - The new MSX platform pro-standarization
At 08:00 PM 7/20/99 +0200, you wrote: >> That only works if the opcodes are unused (no instruction is mapped to >> them). But if a different Z380 instruction is mapped to the R800 opcode, >> it is not trapped but the (wrong) Z380 instruction is executed instead. >> I think the latter is the case: R800 opcodes speficy different >> instructions on Z380. > >Are you talking about the doubled instructions like the 'second' LD HL,(nn) >etc.??? I think thase aren't used anyway, because their counterpart is >smaller and faster. No, I'm talking about MULUB and other R800-specific instructions. If the opcode for MULUB would be unused on Z380, it could be trapped (kind-of software interrupt) and a handler could be written that emulated MULUB. But if the opcode is used for a new Z380 instruction, the trapping mechanism doesn't apply. >> Yes, the web page will serve as a reference and a log, but it won't be the >> place where the discussion is held. > >Agree. But I'm still worried. The two of us seem to agree on most points, but we're not hardware developers. Could they please give their opinion? I would even prefer a negative opinion over silence. Bye, Maarten MSX Mailinglist. To unsubscribe, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and put in the body (not subject) "unsubscribe msx [EMAIL PROTECTED]" (without the quotes :-) Problems? contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] (www.stack.nl/~wiebe/mailinglist/)
Re: [Phoenix] Re: Phoenix project - The new MSX platform pro-standarization
> CJB is nice indeed. And it looks far more better then come.to/phoenix
> However, did you know you can skip the www in www.phoenix.cjb.net I don't
> think the DNS servers support this (have to look that up), but at least
> practically all browsers automatically add www to it. And the users of
> browsers who don't do that (I don't know one) will probably know they have
> to add www to an url if it doesn't start with it.
DNS servers/entries don't have to start with www at all! There are plenty of
URL's whcih doesn't (and can't) start with www. E.g., there is a computer on
the university here, called studs. If I run a httpd (HTTP daemon) on it (thus:
a http server), you should use the URL: http://studs.sci.kun.nl/ to reach it!
With 'www' before it, it will not work. No, then it would actually access the
computer named "www", instead of "studs"! You can ofcourse make it work with
www to do some aliassing But in general it's nonsense that all URL's start
with 'www' and browsers shouldn't put 'www' in front of the URL automaticly.
The browsers I use don't do that! Lynx and Netscape 3.01 (Unix) don't.
So, to come back to what you're saying:
> However, did you know you can skip the www in www.phoenix.cjb.net
So, www.xxx.cjb.net is an alias for xxx.cjb.net, which again is an alias for
another URL/computer.
> think the DNS servers support this (have to look that up),
Support what?? Does this make any sense?
> practically all browsers automatically add www to it
So this is not true, and even not logical to do.
>And the users of browsers who don't do that (I don't know one) will
>probably know they have to add www to an url if it doesn't start with
>it.
So, no! No-one has to add 'www' to an URL if it doesn't start with it, since
then it would be a different URL!
Grtjs, Manuel ((m)ICQ UIN 41947405) ("Better to talk about stuff you DO know
something about! Like the nice Toshiba info you gave me!" ;-)
PS: MSX 4 EVER! (Questions? See: http://www.faq.msxnet.org/)
PPS: Visit my homepage at http://www.sci.kun.nl/marie/home/manuelbi/
MSX Mailinglist. To unsubscribe, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and put
in the body (not subject) "unsubscribe msx [EMAIL PROTECTED]" (without the
quotes :-) Problems? contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] (www.stack.nl/~wiebe/mailinglist/)
Re: Phoenix project - The new MSX platform pro-standarization
At 12:56 19/07/99 +0200, you wrote: >> >have the guarantee of a full compatibility between different > > projects and a > > It's a good idea to standardize the new MSX efforts, it will > > Iim sure that Phoenix is something needed for the MSX system, and with >Phoenix all the programmers will be in contact with hardware developers >to work together. Well, it sounds really good, but unfortunately, as I've noticed in 6 years of MSX-freaking over the Net (and 12 years into the MSX-scene), I don't think it'll be successful. Why? Reasons below. >> > But I wonder, how will the Phoenix standard be decided? >> >> As I said Phoenix depends on Internet, there is no discussion about this, >>therefore Phoenix must be decided in Internet, I will contact with Tristan >>and Funet will have a Phoenix directory, Padial will publish schemas and >>complete information about the finished projects. >> The Phoenix web is another important part. > >But what about the developers which don't have internet-access??? I know >Hans van Oranje has, and others might be able to access the internet via >school or the library, but I don't think they all have internet-access. That's the 1st point, hard developers who can't access Internet. 2nd point, hard developers who dislikes e-mails. 3rd point, hard developers who doesn't speak English properly. >> > An alternative to consensus would be voting, in that case >> > who gets to vote? Anyone who subscribes to a Phoenix mailinglist? >> >> This is not neccesary, how many hardware developers are in the world??, >>maybe with the hand fingers is enough to count them, there are many >>programmers, but the programmers depends on the hardware developers, so >>the main characters of Phoenix are the hardware developers: >> >> Padial, Ademir, Culla, ESE, Henrik... > >I don't agree with that. Software-developers must also have a "vinger in de >pap", because they are the ones who are going to use it, and they can tell >which things are useful, which not, and they can give very useful >suggestions or tips, for example on a feature which makes a certain board a >little more expensive, but at the same time is of a great help to >programmers (for example an external interrupt or so). Why a Phoenix mailing list, if we've a MSX mailing list. I don't wanna subscribe to another mailing list, only to know if Phoenix is going well or not. >> > Another question: what are the starting assumptions for Phoenix? >> >> Well, this is certainly complicated, I think Phoenix must assumpt the >>system hardware developments like Z380, new musics board, new VDP boards... >> Nowaday we have no problems because there is only a new music board and a >>new VDP board (I think): Moonsound and GFX9000, but it could be a real >>problem if somebody makes a new OPL4 incompatible with Moonsound, Phoenix >>has the responsability in this kind of problems. > >Ah, this is very good. In a lot of projects the OPL4 of v9990 is not listed >or is listed but in an incompatible way... I'm very glad with this... >relieved. >By the way, there was some guy (dunno where) developing an OPL3 board!!! Leonard... >Aargh! Let us make it MoonSound-compatible and convince this guy to use >OPL4!!! (which can still be achieved). Have you noticed how much a Moonsound board costs? Maybe he chose OPL3 due to the price. >Oh, by the way, I think a new MSX must have a decent timer of which the >speed can be set and which can generate an interrupt. This is definately >useful, in example for JoyNet. Sure! >> We know that MSX is a generational standard, theorically MSX-TR is >compatible >>with MSX-1, MSX-2 and MSX-2+, MSX 2 with MSX-1...possible new MSX computers >>have to be compatible with MSX TR, 2+, 2 and 1 obviosly. > >Ok, that is perfect. Hmmm, hope so. >This mailinglist is, I have to say, quite emulator-less... >Compare it with news://comp.sys.msx which has a lot of emulator-talk. Well, I can't read comp.sys.msx, but I think I'm losing nothing... >~Grauw "Phoenix is a great idea" Phoenix is a nice idea, but I'm in doubt if everybody (and I mean EVERYBODY) will support. Sorry, but developing a nice website is easy. The hard part is to develop a whole new system. ByE. Ricardo Jurczyk Pinheiro - ICQ UIN:3635907 - [EMAIL PROTECTED]|_Sola Scriptura | http://i.am/rjp -M.Sc. Numerical Modelling (hope so!) |_ Sola Gratia | UFF - Niteroi - RJ - Brazil - [EMAIL PROTECTED]_| Sola Fide | MSX, ST, B5, X-F, Anime, Christian, Maths, CuD, Linux!_| Solo Cristi | Christian, Rock, Comics, Transformers, and hate M$! | Soli Deo Gloria | MSX Mailinglist. To unsubscribe, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and put in the body (not subject) "unsubscribe msx [EMAIL PROTECTED]" (without the quo
Re: [Phoenix] Re: Phoenix project - The new MSX platform pro-standarization
>>> I have some space left and I'm allowed to use CGI. I don't have the >>>ability to aquire my own domain name, the shortest I can offer ends in >>> "/~mth/phoenix/". But does a domain name really matter? Ofcourse it looks >>> cool, but anyone who's really interested can bookmark a more complicated >>> URL. >>It's not about bookmarking I think. you should be able to remember it, to >>tell about it to others... > > Create a redirection on http://www.cjb.net/ . I can arrange an URL like http://phoenix.msx.tni.nl/ If needed, I have a few MB's on my server and CGI. I can even provide a FTP! (like ftp://ftp.tni.nl/msx/phoenix/) Just let me know! ^_^ Patriek ,--. ,---. ,--. Homepage: \"To make a mistake is | '--.| __ \ \__/ http://www.tni.nl// human, but to really | __|| | | | ,--. E-mail: \ fuck things up, you | | | | | | | | [EMAIL PROTECTED] / need a computer." | '---' | | '--' | \- Glenn Scott, \_| || The New Image -since 1991-/ Secret Agent W7 MSX Mailinglist. To unsubscribe, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and put in the body (not subject) "unsubscribe msx [EMAIL PROTECTED]" (without the quotes :-) Problems? contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] (www.stack.nl/~wiebe/mailinglist/)
[Phoenix] Phoenix project - The new MSX platform pro-standarization
NEW!NEW!NEW!NEW! >> Ya... I know that it's possible to use >> http://phoenix.cjb.net/ >Have you already signed up an account??? >I tried it and it redirects me to some sails.com-site or so... The URL >doesn't work, but www.sails.com DOES exist. If it's theirs then if we ask >kindly they might give the URL to us. They don't seem to use it... Well... It's being used. I created the http://www.msxproject.cjb.net/ http://www.phoenixproject.cjb.net/ http://www.msxphoenix.cjb.net/ http://www.phoenixmsx.cjb.net/ All of them redirect to http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Hardware/1985/ It was the better that I can do... 1985 is a nice number, huh? (-: Now we need to create the page. We must talk about it. I have set the usernames and all the passwords are the same for all the needs. The e-mail is [EMAIL PROTECTED] And I leave it web based, and all information goes to there, BUT the Geocities Account number is linked to my e-mail account (I have no idea to do something different). If everyone agree, I can build the page, or I can change everything to someone else. If you all agree, I'll update it, but I'll need help, of course! (-: []'s Daniel Caetano. MSX Mailinglist. To unsubscribe, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and put in the body (not subject) "unsubscribe msx [EMAIL PROTECTED]" (without the quotes :-) Problems? contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] (www.stack.nl/~wiebe/mailinglist/)
Re: [Phoenix] Re: Phoenix project - The new MSX platform pro-standarization
[OpCodes Pre-Processor Running before Z380] >Well then I think we should be able to enable/disable this preprocessor by >software, and that it is also featured in the bootroutines. So if you keep >for instance TAB pressed then the preprocessor will be activated, and >otherwise it won't. >Because if I'm going to program for the Z380 I don't want to use remapped >instructions which don't comply with the documentation and books about it. I >don't like that at all. That's the idea! (-: >> Ya... I know that it's possible to use >> http://phoenix.cjb.net/ >Have you already signed up an account??? >I tried it and it redirects me to some sails.com-site or so... The URL >doesn't work, but www.sails.com DOES exist. If it's theirs then if we ask >kindly they might give the URL to us. They don't seem to use it... Well... It's being used. I created the http://www.msxproject.cjb.net/ http://www.phoenixproject.cjb.net/ http://www.msxphoenix.cjb.net/ http://www.phoenixmsx.cjb.net/ These are redirecting to my page (for now). Now I will allocate some Geocities space to place the page and change all these addresses to this new page. When I've done that, I'll send a new message here. []'s Daniel Caetano. MSX Mailinglist. To unsubscribe, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and put in the body (not subject) "unsubscribe msx [EMAIL PROTECTED]" (without the quotes :-) Problems? contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] (www.stack.nl/~wiebe/mailinglist/)
Re: [Phoenix] Re: Phoenix project - The new MSX platform pro-standarization
> [z380 interrupt for unknown opcodes] > >> It would be a lot more interesting, because avoid changing programs. > >> (AFAIK, this thing can be done even on Z80, but the processor for R800 > >> instructions must be BEFORE the Z80, and this will be a bit more > >complicated > >> to build). > >Ah... nice feature! Didn't know about that. > > Unfortunately it only works for unknown opcodes. If some of the additional > R800 opcodes match to another opcode of z380, the interrupt will not > occour, and the processor will act strange... Probably will hang. > As someone said, Z380 has instructions with the opcodes of the > addtional R800 ones... This is not good and means that, if we want > TurboR compatablity, we will need to put an opcodes pre-processor > before the Z380. This is possible, but sounds a bit complex. Well then I think we should be able to enable/disable this preprocessor by software, and that it is also featured in the bootroutines. So if you keep for instance TAB pressed then the preprocessor will be activated, and otherwise it won't. Because if I'm going to program for the Z380 I don't want to use remapped instructions which don't comply with the documentation and books about it. I don't like that at all. > >The email-program in project "i" will feature filters (although probably not > >in the first versions). > > This is very nice. Well that's the idea. > Ya... I know that it's possible to use > > http://phoenix.cjb.net/ Have you already signed up an account??? I tried it and it redirects me to some sails.com-site or so... The URL doesn't work, but www.sails.com DOES exist. If it's theirs then if we ask kindly they might give the URL to us. They don't seem to use it... ~Grauw -- >< email me: [EMAIL PROTECTED] or ICQ: 10196372 visit the Datax homepage at http://datax.cjb.net/ MSX fair Bussum / MSX Marathon homepage: http://msxfair.cjb.net/ >< MSX Mailinglist. To unsubscribe, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and put in the body (not subject) "unsubscribe msx [EMAIL PROTECTED]" (without the quotes :-) Problems? contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] (www.stack.nl/~wiebe/mailinglist/)
Re: [Phoenix] Re: Phoenix project - The new MSX platform pro-standarization
On Tue, 20 Jul 1999 20:47:08 +0200, Laurens Holst wrote: >> >I bet the Z380 has a good counterpart for MULUW and MULUB... >> It has multiplication instructions, but I don't know if they're exactly >> the same. >Mwa... I think so. Only other opcode I think. I do not remember that, but Z380 have a lot of MULT instructions... And even DIV instructions... (-: >No, no, in contrary. It's quite easy. First, all those instructions have >multi-byte opcode, don't they? Do the chance you get something wrong is >already minimized. Second, you can look at the byte before it. If it's the >opcode of an LD HL,nn-like instruction the it probably won't be the >instruction you're looking for (unless the programmer used 'nested' >instructions, which is not used often though, only in BIOSses). Next, you >can show the surrounding code and if it makes sense, then it's a REAL >multiplication-instruction. If it doesn't, it's probably data. It might even >be possible to let a program automatically decide if the surrounding data is >code... >Also, I don't know what the opcode is, but I think it's not a simple one, so >it's highly inlikely that the opcode will be (referred to as) data. Believe me... It's impossible do this. (-: There is the need of a pre-processor that knows all opcodes of R800 and, when turned on, will act just like the R800, but will interpret the R800 only opcodes and pass to Z380 the common opcodes. This pre-processor would be almost a full processor. >> Turbo R ST doesn't have MIDI, only GT has. So I guess Illusion City can do >> without. I'm not sure if it uses PCM, I played for only a little while. >Oh. Well, Daniel says it did. I'm not sure of that... (-: But I think it uses. MIDI it will not use as a need, because it is not on ST... But PCM is standard on both ST and GT. So, it's strange think in a program for TR that not uses it... It would be like an MSX2+ program that uses V9938 and doesn't make use of FM... (-: I saw Illusion City only one time, and I see it before Fray TR... I remember that FrayTR uses PCM to reproduce voices... But I'm not sure if Illusion City has voices... >Yeah, okay, that's cool. But not the OPL4-way, because the OPL4 sampleunit >really SUCKS!!! It can play nice samples but there are three disadvantages: >1. The sample always has to loop at the end, you can't just let it stop. Really? Yuck! /-: >2. Therefor, the OPL4 can't generate an interrupt if the sample is finished, This is not really bad, but would be usefull... >3. You can't play sound and access the SampleRAM at the same time. >Resulting in a maximum sample-length of 64k (using an 8-bit sample). >Therefor, the OPL4 is, although it supports high frequency, high quality >samples (16 bit, 44.1kHz), definately NOT FIT to play large samples like >.WAV-files. Look, OPL4 is not a PCM Player. OPL4 is a WaveTable... (-: And WaveTables are not made to play PCM sounds (like WAVs). It's very important to exist a WaveTable AND a PCM unit. >It would be the best if you could tell the sampling-device to generate an >interrupt at byte X, therefor enabling the program to start filling the >SampleRAM again a short while before it runs out of SampleRAM (although this >is not a nice solution, because it could result in problems on future >too-fast MSX computers... But let's not assume this). Also, the presence of >this device would make it possible for game-developers to support sampled >soundeffects for the non-MoonSound users. I think it would be nice if the interruptions of sound were interpreted into the sound board... I really don't like interruptions on the main processor. (-: >Ah, and by the way, MSX-programmers should in the future avoid to develop >speed-sensitive programs. What I'm trying to say is for example in case of a >screensplit: try not to assume it arrived at a certain line after some >initializations before the real lineinterrupt, but keep track of the amount >of H_BLANKs, even if this makes you to put the screensplit a few 'lines' >higher. Like some video games does...? []'s Daniel Caetano MSX Mailinglist. To unsubscribe, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and put in the body (not subject) "unsubscribe msx [EMAIL PROTECTED]" (without the quotes :-) Problems? contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] (www.stack.nl/~wiebe/mailinglist/)
Re: [Phoenix] Re: Phoenix project - The new MSX platform pro-standarization
On Tue, 20 Jul 1999 19:58:11 +0200, Laurens Holst wrote: [z380 interrupt for unknown opcodes] >> It would be a lot more interesting, because avoid changing programs. >> (AFAIK, this thing can be done even on Z80, but the processor for R800 >> instructions must be BEFORE the Z80, and this will be a bit more >complicated >> to build). >Ah... nice feature! Didn't know about that. Unfortunately it only works for unknown opcodes. If some of the additional R800 opcodes match to another opcode of z380, the interrupt will not occour, and the processor will act strange... Probably will hang. As someone said, Z380 has instructions with the opcodes of the addtional R800 ones... This is not good and means that, if we want TurboR compatablity, we will need to put an opcodes pre-processor before the Z380. This is possible, but sounds a bit complex. >> Who is interested on reading only this type of subject can use filters, >>present >> on almost all good message hearder (at least for PC, once I don't know any >> message reader for MSX). >The email-program in project "i" will feature filters (although probably not >in the first versions). This is very nice. >> Create a redirection on http://www.cjb.net/ . So people can acess it >> using something like: http://www.phoenix.cjb.net/ >CJB is nice indeed. And it looks far more better then come.to/phoenix >However, did you know you can skip the www in www.phoenix.cjb.net I don't >think the DNS servers support this (have to look that up), but at least >practically all browsers automatically add www to it. And the users of >browsers who don't do that (I don't know one) will probably know they have >to add www to an url if it doesn't start with it. >come.to is in fact also www.come.to... Ya... I know that it's possible to use http://phoenix.cjb.net/ []'s Daniel Caetano MSX Mailinglist. To unsubscribe, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and put in the body (not subject) "unsubscribe msx [EMAIL PROTECTED]" (without the quotes :-) Problems? contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] (www.stack.nl/~wiebe/mailinglist/)
Re: R: Phoenix project - The new MSX platform pro-standarization
At 09:24 PM 7/19/99, you wrote: > Hmmm... Have you heard about UZIX? > Sure you've heard. Adriano started developing UZIX some months ago, and >only a little number of friends of him were awared of his development. He >hasn't told to everyone 'cause he didn't want to listen 'opinions'. Many >people talking, few people working. Ofcourse when you have a public discussion, many more people are talking than working. But I think the working people can simply use the good ideas and leave the bad ideas. After all, the ideas are suggestions rather than orders. If you look for example at the Linux kernel, you can see that a public discussion won't interfere with work being finished. > As you may have noticed, many people have a lot of ideas, but only few >of >them became developed products. So, I don't think a Internet-size group is >a good idea. This is also true for products developed in private. But in that case, very few people know if the product is never finished. The public discussion about Uzix did get them permission to use Alex Wulms' Fast Copy drivers for direct FDC access. >> Once time the new X interface from Padial and Henrik (ie) is finished >>under >>Phoenix rules, Phoenix gives the seal for this new harware developments, >>now >>all the buyers can comprobate that Phoenix gave the seal and they are sure >>of >>a full compatibility between the two kinds of X interfaces. > > X interface? As in "substitute interface name for X", nothing to do with X windows. Bye, Maarten MSX Mailinglist. To unsubscribe, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and put in the body (not subject) "unsubscribe msx [EMAIL PROTECTED]" (without the quotes :-) Problems? contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] (www.stack.nl/~wiebe/mailinglist/)
Re: [Phoenix] Re: Phoenix project - The new MSX platform pro-standarization
> >> I'm not sure turbo R compatibility would be a good thing. You would need > >> an > >> R800-compatible processor for example, and as far as I know Z380 isn't. > > > >??? ISN'T IT ??? > > I looked up the opcodes for some of the R800 instructions and the Z380 has > different instructions mapped to those opcodes. Drat. (I like Dexter) > >Well, then maybe we can disassemble and adapt turboR-programs. I mean, the > >only non-Z380 compatible instructions are MULUW and MULUB, aren't they??? > >The other ones also work on a Z80 (though undocumented). > > It was some time ago, I don't remember how much instructions are different > for Z80 and R800. > But it may be the case that Z380 doesn't supports all of the undocumented > Z80 instructions. > Anyway, those things can be looked up. Well now we know thay do. > >I bet the Z380 has a good counterpart for MULUW and MULUB... > > It has multiplication instructions, but I don't know if they're exactly the > same. Mwa... I think so. Only other opcode I think. > >So that shouldn't be too > >difficult. Just search for the opcode and replace it. > > Easier said than done. How can you tell apart an opcode from a sequence of > data bytes? Example: a byte with contents #3E, does it mean "LD A,n" or > does it mean the number 62? > Maybe an adapted emulator could report all addresses of executed R800 > instructions... No, no, in contrary. It's quite easy. First, all those instructions have multi-byte opcode, don't they? Do the chance you get something wrong is already minimized. Second, you can look at the byte before it. If it's the opcode of an LD HL,nn-like instruction the it probably won't be the instruction you're looking for (unless the programmer used 'nested' instructions, which is not used often though, only in BIOSses). Next, you can show the surrounding code and if it makes sense, then it's a REAL multiplication-instruction. If it doesn't, it's probably data. It might even be possible to let a program automatically decide if the surrounding data is code... Also, I don't know what the opcode is, but I think it's not a simple one, so it's highly inlikely that the opcode will be (referred to as) data. > >Maybe then I can finally play Illusion City! To play Illusion City, is MIDI > >nessacary? And is the PCM device nessacary??? What other points of > >incompatibility could it have??? > > Turbo R ST doesn't have MIDI, only GT has. So I guess Illusion City can do > without. > I'm not sure if it uses PCM, I played for only a little while. Oh. Well, Daniel says it did. > >Well, actually I think a 'new' MSX should also have a PCM sampling device, > >so why not take the tuboR's sampleunit? > > I'm not particularly font of the way the turbo R's PCM works. Although it's > simple in hardware, it's not simple to use. I prefer a PCM device that uses > buffering. For example the way MSX-AUDIO handles ADPCM is nice, it plays > from sample RAM and can generate an interrupt when it's done playing. Yeah, okay, that's cool. But not the OPL4-way, because the OPL4 sampleunit really SUCKS!!! It can play nice samples but there are three disadvantages: 1. The sample always has to loop at the end, you can't just let it stop. 2. Therefor, the OPL4 can't generate an interrupt if the sample is finished, and 3. You can't play sound and access the SampleRAM at the same time. Resulting in a maximum sample-length of 64k (using an 8-bit sample). Therefor, the OPL4 is, although it supports high frequency, high quality samples (16 bit, 44.1kHz), definately NOT FIT to play large samples like .WAV-files. It is good for sounds and samples in games which can be done like 'I tell you to play the sound and I don't want you to bother me afterwards', though. It would be the best if you could tell the sampling-device to generate an interrupt at byte X, therefor enabling the program to start filling the SampleRAM again a short while before it runs out of SampleRAM (although this is not a nice solution, because it could result in problems on future too-fast MSX computers... But let's not assume this). Also, the presence of this device would make it possible for game-developers to support sampled soundeffects for the non-MoonSound users. Ah, and by the way, MSX-programmers should in the future avoid to develop speed-sensitive programs. What I'm trying to say is for example in case of a screensplit: try not to assume it arrived at a certain line after some initializations before the real lineinterrupt, but keep track of the amount of H_BLANKs, even if this makes you to put the screensplit a few 'lines' higher. > >> The bad thing of a new list is that many people won't subscribe to it, > >> although they may have interesting ideas. Maybe we can use this list and > >> put "[Phoenix]" in the subject? > > > >Yes, yes. They do that in the int-fiction newsgroup too!!! > >Only one thing: A lot of people are subscribed to the newsgroup but not to > >this list (I can understand that, sometimes the me
Re: [Phoenix] Re: Phoenix project - The new MSX platform pro-standarization
Daniel wrote: > >> I'm not sure turbo R compatibility would be a good thing. You would need > >> an R800-compatible processor for example, and as far as I know Z380 isn't. > >??? ISN'T IT ??? > > No, it is not. I'm sure of this. > > >Well, then maybe we can disassemble and adapt turboR-programs. I mean, the > >only non-Z380 compatible instructions are MULUW and MULUB, aren't they??? > >The other ones also work on a Z80 (though undocumented). I bet the Z380 has > >a good counterpart for MULUW and MULUB... So that shouldn't be too > >difficult. Just search for the opcode and replace it. > > It can be made by hardware, because Z380 has a special feature, like an > interrupt when an unknown command is found... So these instructions can > be redirected to another single processor that only execute these instructions. Why not let the software (some small routine(s) in page 3) do that??? Nah, if some program switches page 3 away or corrupts it it won't work anymore... > It would be a lot more interesting, because avoid changing programs. > (AFAIK, this thing can be done even on Z80, but the processor for R800 > instructions must be BEFORE the Z80, and this will be a bit more complicated > to build). Ah... nice feature! Didn't know about that. > but... it will be almost cosmetic, and will exist only for "strange" the strange > opcodes present on R800 and not on Z380. Besides, Z380 has a couple > of MULT instructions that are not present on R800. > And all "secret" Z80 opcodes are documented on Z380. Ok, I already thought so. That's good. > >> The bad thing of a new list is that many people won't subscribe to it, > >> although they may have interesting ideas. Maybe we can use this list and > >> put "[Phoenix]" in the subject? > >Yes, yes. They do that in the int-fiction newsgroup too!!! > >Only one thing: A lot of people are subscribed to the newsgroup but not to > >this list (I can understand that, sometimes the message-flow is a bit much > >here, while you can skip them in a newsgroup. Although the subjects are way > >more interesting here...). So I think we should find a solution to that... > > Who is interested on reading only this type of subject can use filters, present > on almost all good message hearder (at least for PC, once I don't know any > message reader for MSX). The email-program in project "i" will feature filters (although probably not in the first versions). > >> I have some space left and I'm allowed to use CGI. I don't have the > >>ability to aquire my own domain name, the shortest I can offer ends in > >> "/~mth/phoenix/". But does a domain name really matter? Ofcourse it looks > >> cool, but anyone who's really interested can bookmark a more complicated > >> URL. > >It's not about bookmarking I think. you should be able to remember it, to > >tell about it to others... > > Create a redirection on http://www.cjb.net/ . So people can acess it using something > like: > > http://www.phoenix.cjb.net/ CJB is nice indeed. And it looks far more better then come.to/phoenix However, did you know you can skip the www in www.phoenix.cjb.net I don't think the DNS servers support this (have to look that up), but at least practically all browsers automatically add www to it. And the users of browsers who don't do that (I don't know one) will probably know they have to add www to an url if it doesn't start with it. come.to is in fact also www.come.to... > It's free. :) I like that part of internet. ~Grauw "wants cable-modem" -- >< email me: [EMAIL PROTECTED] or ICQ: 10196372 visit the Datax homepage at http://datax.cjb.net/ MSX fair Bussum / MSX Marathon homepage: http://msxfair.cjb.net/ >< MSX Mailinglist. To unsubscribe, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and put in the body (not subject) "unsubscribe msx [EMAIL PROTECTED]" (without the quotes :-) Problems? contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] (www.stack.nl/~wiebe/mailinglist/)
Re: [Phoenix] Re: Phoenix project - The new MSX platform pro-standarization
> >>Well, then maybe we can disassemble and adapt turboR-programs. I mean, the > >>only non-Z380 compatible instructions are MULUW and MULUB, aren't they??? > >>The other ones also work on a Z80 (though undocumented). I bet the Z380 has > >>a good counterpart for MULUW and MULUB... So that shouldn't be too > >>difficult. Just search for the opcode and replace it. > > > > It can be made by hardware, because Z380 has a special feature, like an > >interrupt when an unknown command is found... So these instructions can > >be redirected to another single processor that only execute these > >instructions. > > That only works if the opcodes are unused (no instruction is mapped to > them). But if a different Z380 instruction is mapped to the R800 opcode, it > is not trapped but the (wrong) Z380 instruction is executed instead. > I think the latter is the case: R800 opcodes speficy different instructions > on Z380. Are you talking about the doubled instructions like the 'second' LD HL,(nn) etc.??? I think thase aren't used anyway, because their counterpart is smaller and faster. > > I think it would be nice to make the suggestions and discussions here, and > >the need for a Web page will be only to comunicate to everyone the > >decisions (and not the suggestions or ideas). > > Yes, the web page will serve as a reference and a log, but it won't be the > place where the discussion is held. Agree. ~Grauw "to go where no-one has gone before" -- >< email me: [EMAIL PROTECTED] or ICQ: 10196372 visit the Datax homepage at http://datax.cjb.net/ MSX fair Bussum / MSX Marathon homepage: http://msxfair.cjb.net/ >< MSX Mailinglist. To unsubscribe, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and put in the body (not subject) "unsubscribe msx [EMAIL PROTECTED]" (without the quotes :-) Problems? contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] (www.stack.nl/~wiebe/mailinglist/)
Re: [Phoenix] Re: Phoenix project - The new MSX platform pro-standarization
> >It can be made by hardware, because Z380 has a special feature, like an > >interrupt when an unknown command is found... So these instructions can > >be redirected to another single processor that only execute these > >instructions. > > That only works if the opcodes are unused (no instruction is mapped to > them). But if a different Z380 instruction is mapped to the R800 opcode, it > is not trapped but the (wrong) Z380 instruction is executed instead. > I think the latter is the case: R800 opcodes speficy different instructions > on Z380. why not make some kind of mappingdevice (before the cpu) to map r800 ops to z380 equivalents and remap all z380 ops that are used differently by r800 to completely different ops. this way the z380 would become r800 compatible and still have it's unique ops greetz akai MSX Mailinglist. To unsubscribe, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and put in the body (not subject) "unsubscribe msx [EMAIL PROTECTED]" (without the quotes :-) Problems? contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] (www.stack.nl/~wiebe/mailinglist/)
Re: R: Phoenix project - The new MSX platform pro-standarization
At 07:52 PM 7/19/99 GMT, you wrote: >> About Sunrise, Sunrise Holland and Swiss have merged. >> As far as I know, they distribute hardware, but they don't have a >> "development staff". Whoever develops a project is different per project. > >That is absolute not correct. All hardeware (GFX9000, MoonSound, Video9000, >PAL-Encoder a.s.o. was developed by Sunrise (Henrik works for us) I'm sorry about the misinformation. Do you still have developers employed today? And are they willing to participate in the Phoenix standardisation project? Bye, Maarten MSX Mailinglist. To unsubscribe, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and put in the body (not subject) "unsubscribe msx [EMAIL PROTECTED]" (without the quotes :-) Problems? contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] (www.stack.nl/~wiebe/mailinglist/)
Re: [Phoenix] Re: Phoenix project - The new MSX platform pro-standarization
At 04:51 PM 7/19/99 -0300, you wrote: >>Well, then maybe we can disassemble and adapt turboR-programs. I mean, the >>only non-Z380 compatible instructions are MULUW and MULUB, aren't they??? >>The other ones also work on a Z80 (though undocumented). I bet the Z380 has >>a good counterpart for MULUW and MULUB... So that shouldn't be too >>difficult. Just search for the opcode and replace it. > > It can be made by hardware, because Z380 has a special feature, like an >interrupt when an unknown command is found... So these instructions can >be redirected to another single processor that only execute these >instructions. That only works if the opcodes are unused (no instruction is mapped to them). But if a different Z380 instruction is mapped to the R800 opcode, it is not trapped but the (wrong) Z380 instruction is executed instead. I think the latter is the case: R800 opcodes speficy different instructions on Z380. > I think it would be nice to make the suggestions and discussions here, and >the need for a Web page will be only to comunicate to everyone the >decisions (and not the suggestions or ideas). Yes, the web page will serve as a reference and a log, but it won't be the place where the discussion is held. Bye, Maarten MSX Mailinglist. To unsubscribe, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and put in the body (not subject) "unsubscribe msx [EMAIL PROTECTED]" (without the quotes :-) Problems? contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] (www.stack.nl/~wiebe/mailinglist/)
Re: [Phoenix] Re: Phoenix project - The new MSX platform pro-standarization
At 08:44 PM 7/19/99 +0200, you wrote: >> I'm not sure turbo R compatibility would be a good thing. You would need >> an >> R800-compatible processor for example, and as far as I know Z380 isn't. > >??? ISN'T IT ??? I looked up the opcodes for some of the R800 instructions and the Z380 has different instructions mapped to those opcodes. >Well, then maybe we can disassemble and adapt turboR-programs. I mean, the >only non-Z380 compatible instructions are MULUW and MULUB, aren't they??? >The other ones also work on a Z80 (though undocumented). It was some time ago, I don't remember how much instructions are different for Z80 and R800. But it may be the case that Z380 doesn't supports all of the undocumented Z80 instructions. Anyway, those things can be looked up. >I bet the Z380 has a good counterpart for MULUW and MULUB... It has multiplication instructions, but I don't know if they're exactly the same. >So that shouldn't be too >difficult. Just search for the opcode and replace it. Easier said than done. How can you tell apart an opcode from a sequence of data bytes? Example: a byte with contents #3E, does it mean "LD A,n" or does it mean the number 62? Maybe an adapted emulator could report all addresses of executed R800 instructions... >Maybe then I can finally play Illusion City! To play Illusion City, is MIDI >nessacary? And is the PCM device nessacary??? What other points of >incompatibility could it have??? Turbo R ST doesn't have MIDI, only GT has. So I guess Illusion City can do without. I'm not sure if it uses PCM, I played for only a little while. >Well, actually I think a 'new' MSX should also have a PCM sampling device, >so why not take the tuboR's sampleunit? I'm not particularly font of the way the turbo R's PCM works. Although it's simple in hardware, it's not simple to use. I prefer a PCM device that uses buffering. For example the way MSX-AUDIO handles ADPCM is nice, it plays from sample RAM and can generate an interrupt when it's done playing. >> The bad thing of a new list is that many people won't subscribe to it, >> although they may have interesting ideas. Maybe we can use this list and >> put "[Phoenix]" in the subject? > >Yes, yes. They do that in the int-fiction newsgroup too!!! >Only one thing: A lot of people are subscribed to the newsgroup but not to >this list (I can understand that, sometimes the message-flow is a bit much >here, while you can skip them in a newsgroup. Although the subjects are way >more interesting here...). So I think we should find a solution to that... It's possible with some mail programs to post on both. Manuel does it all the time. But ofcourse not everyone uses an integrated news and mail reader. Actually, do you think there are people on the newsgroup that are not on this list and want to participate in the Phoenix discussion? Most newsgroup people are either interested in emulators or in chatting. And if there are interested people, they can simply subscribe to this list. With all the web-based free e-mail sites, it should be no problem for someone with net access to aquire an e-mail address. And anyone with a little advanced mail program can filter messages, to separate this list from personal e-mail, or even separate Phoenix messages from the regular list traffic. >Will a web-based forum work??? No, I can tell from experience it doesn't work... >Although... I don't think it >will be visited really frequently, like a mailinglist, which you are forced >to pay attention to. ...And that's the reason why. >Maybe someone should put all or the important messages >concerning Phoenix (so with [Phoenix] in the subject-line) online on the >Phoenix webpage, or something like that... We could make an archive of all messages and put it on the Phoenix site. Does Sean still do this for all messages on this list? And maybe someone can regularly (once a week?) make a summary of the discussions. Those summaries would be posted on a separate section of the site. >It's not about bookmarking I think. you should be able to remember it, to >tell about it to others... OK, mailing the URL is one extra step, which might be problematic if more people have such a poor memory as I have. Bye, Maarten MSX Mailinglist. To unsubscribe, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and put in the body (not subject) "unsubscribe msx [EMAIL PROTECTED]" (without the quotes :-) Problems? contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] (www.stack.nl/~wiebe/mailinglist/)
Re: R: Phoenix project - The new MSX platform pro-standarization
At 14:18 18/07/99 +0200, you wrote: > > Many things needs to be done. > > Something to be remembered: There are many countries where > > you can find > > MSX-freaks, but unfortunately you can't count more than 10 > > users. In > > Holland, there were much more. So, does the vote of North > > It is not neccesary to vote!, how many hardware developers we have??, in >Spain only Padial is involved in serious projects, Ademir in Brasil, our >friends of ESE in Japan, Sunrise in Holland...more??, I think there arenit >more big hardware developers, so it is not difficult to stablish a mutual >agreement between them. The programmers will be beneficiated of this >agreement because they know the full compatibility guaranteed by Phoenix. I don't think so, 'cause there are more hardware developers than these few guys. Well, here in Brazil we don't have only Ademir, as I think, Henrik Gilvad and Leonardo Padial aren't the only MSX hard developers in Denmark and Spain. And don't forget Egor and the Novatec guys, from Russia. And if you haven't noticed, Ademir dislikes e-mails. I think he really hates e-mails, and can't write fluently in English. Well, I haven't seen many e-mails from Henrik or Padial recently (well, Henrik had talked a bit here some years ago). I don't think they've enough time to read/write e-mails. MSX Mailinglist. To unsubscribe, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and put in the body (not subject) "unsubscribe msx [EMAIL PROTECTED]" (without the quotes :-) Problems? contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] (www.stack.nl/~wiebe/mailinglist/)
Re: R: Phoenix project - The new MSX platform pro-standarization
At 23:33 17/07/99 +0200, you wrote: > > >What about a vote for every country involved in this new > > >country will be responsable for the election of its man. > > I don't think distributing votes per country is such a good > > And even if you want to distribute votes per country, it > > would be better to > > allow several representatives per country instead of just > > one, like Laurens > > suggested. To make the representation fair, the number of > > As I told in another message, I think it is not neccesary the creation of >a special representation, Phoenix must be opened for all the users, like >Internet. Hmmm... Have you heard about UZIX? Sure you've heard. Adriano started developing UZIX some months ago, and only a little number of friends of him were awared of his development. He hasn't told to everyone 'cause he didn't want to listen 'opinions'. Many people talking, few people working. As you may have noticed, many people have a lot of ideas, but only few of them became developed products. So, I don't think a Internet-size group is a good idea. Juscelino Kubistchek, an old Brazilian president in the fifties, said once upon a time: "When I don't want to make a decision, I create a commission to make this decision for me." > > If some > > group of "wise men" decides upon a standard and no hardware > > (or software ;) > > developer wants to build it, it useless... > > Exactly!, I think the best idea is to make an Internet support for MSX >developers, Iim sure all the developers will user this support, por example, >if Padial needs a routine for a new interface, he write a message in the >Phoenix mailing list asking for the service of a programmer, the programmer >contact with Padial and Padial publish the new interface schemas in the FTP, >programmer download it and start to program the routin, he send it directly >to Padial, Padial test it and it is OK, Padial finish the project before >another hardware developer making the same, they were in contact and now >thanks to Phoenix the other hardware developer can take those routines for >his interface and adapt it. I don't think it's that easy. > Once time the new X interface from Padial and Henrik (ie) is finished under >Phoenix rules, Phoenix gives the seal for this new harware developments, now >all the buyers can comprobate that Phoenix gave the seal and they are sure of >a full compatibility between the two kinds of X interfaces. X interface? > I think this could become true, letis hope. Hmmm... Ricardo Jurczyk Pinheiro - ICQ UIN:3635907 - [EMAIL PROTECTED]|_Sola Scriptura | http://i.am/rjp -M.Sc. Numerical Modelling (hope so!) |_ Sola Gratia | UFF - Niteroi - RJ - Brazil - [EMAIL PROTECTED]_| Sola Fide | MSX, ST, B5, X-F, Anime, Christian, Maths, CuD, Linux!_| Solo Cristi | Christian, Rock, Comics, Transformers, and hate M$! | Soli Deo Gloria | After B5... Phrase found painted in a wall in Brasilia: "Remember Biri" MSX Mailinglist. To unsubscribe, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and put in the body (not subject) "unsubscribe msx [EMAIL PROTECTED]" (without the quotes :-) Problems? contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] (www.stack.nl/~wiebe/mailinglist/)
Re: Phoenix project - The new MSX platform pro-standarization
...are there any specs yet?... akai MSX Mailinglist. To unsubscribe, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and put in the body (not subject) "unsubscribe msx [EMAIL PROTECTED]" (without the quotes :-) Problems? contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] (www.stack.nl/~wiebe/mailinglist/)
Re: [Phoenix] Re: Phoenix project - The new MSX platform pro-standarization
On Mon, 19 Jul 1999 20:44:25 +0200, Laurens Holst wrote: >> I'm not sure turbo R compatibility would be a good thing. You would need >> an R800-compatible processor for example, and as far as I know Z380 isn't. >??? ISN'T IT ??? No, it is not. I'm sure of this. >Well, then maybe we can disassemble and adapt turboR-programs. I mean, the >only non-Z380 compatible instructions are MULUW and MULUB, aren't they??? >The other ones also work on a Z80 (though undocumented). I bet the Z380 has >a good counterpart for MULUW and MULUB... So that shouldn't be too >difficult. Just search for the opcode and replace it. It can be made by hardware, because Z380 has a special feature, like an interrupt when an unknown command is found... So these instructions can be redirected to another single processor that only execute these instructions. It would be a lot more interesting, because avoid changing programs. (AFAIK, this thing can be done even on Z80, but the processor for R800 instructions must be BEFORE the Z80, and this will be a bit more complicated to build). but... it will be almost cosmetic, and will exist only for "strange" the strange opcodes present on R800 and not on Z380. Besides, Z380 has a couple of MULT instructions that are not present on R800. And all "secret" Z80 opcodes are documented on Z380. >Maybe then I can finally play Illusion City! To play Illusion City, is MIDI >nessacary? And is the PCM device nessacary??? What other points of >incompatibility could it have??? The MIDI is not necessary. The PCM is. BUT this can be easy copied. I'm trying to convince Ademir Carchano to made one for my CIEL 2+ Turbo. >Well, actually I think a 'new' MSX should also have a PCM sampling device, >so why not take the tuboR's sampleunit? I think it's wise to copy the TurboR one, only for compatability. Something better must be added. The PCM on TR is very primitive. >> The bad thing of a new list is that many people won't subscribe to it, >> although they may have interesting ideas. Maybe we can use this list and >> put "[Phoenix]" in the subject? >Yes, yes. They do that in the int-fiction newsgroup too!!! >Only one thing: A lot of people are subscribed to the newsgroup but not to >this list (I can understand that, sometimes the message-flow is a bit much >here, while you can skip them in a newsgroup. Although the subjects are way >more interesting here...). So I think we should find a solution to that... Who is interested on reading only this type of subject can use filters, present on almost all good message hearder (at least for PC, once I don't know any message reader for MSX). >Will a web-based forum work??? Just an idea... Although... I don't think it >will be visited really frequently, like a mailinglist, which you are forced >to pay attention to. Maybe someone should put all or the important messages >concerning Phoenix (so with [Phoenix] in the subject-line) online on the >Phoenix webpage, or something like that... I think it would be nice to make the suggestions and discussions here, and the need for a Web page will be only to comunicate to everyone the decisions (and not the suggestions or ideas). I think the need is to achieve into an MSX 3.0 (or MSX 4.0 if it will be backward compatible with TR) standard. With this on their hands, the hardware developers can easily develop their own hardware, based on the specs. And the programmers also will find easy to find the information on the Web Page. >> I have some space left and I'm allowed to use CGI. I don't have the >>ability to aquire my own domain name, the shortest I can offer ends in >> "/~mth/phoenix/". But does a domain name really matter? Ofcourse it looks >> cool, but anyone who's really interested can bookmark a more complicated >> URL. >It's not about bookmarking I think. you should be able to remember it, to >tell about it to others... Create a redirection on http://www.cjb.net/ . So people can acess it using something like: http://www.phoenix.cjb.net/ It's free. []'s Daniel Caetano MSX Mailinglist. To unsubscribe, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and put in the body (not subject) "unsubscribe msx [EMAIL PROTECTED]" (without the quotes :-) Problems? contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] (www.stack.nl/~wiebe/mailinglist/)
Re: R: Phoenix project - The new MSX platform pro-standarization
> > About Sunrise, Sunrise Holland and Swiss have merged. > As far as I know, they distribute hardware, but they don't have a > "development staff". Whoever develops a project is different per project. > That is absolute not correct. All hardeware (GFX9000, MoonSound, Video9000, PAL-Encoder a.s.o. was developed by Sunrise (Henrik works for us) > About Henrik, who you mentioned a couple of times, I don't think he does > MSX anymore. I haven't seen him on fairs for some time now and he didn't > make new hardware or driver either (luckily Jon took over IDE BIOS > development). Henrik stoped with MSX and Jon made the new IDE for us. Gretz Stichting Sunrise Peter Burkhard MSX Mailinglist. To unsubscribe, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and put in the body (not subject) "unsubscribe msx [EMAIL PROTECTED]" (without the quotes :-) Problems? contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] (www.stack.nl/~wiebe/mailinglist/)
Re: R: Phoenix project - The new MSX platform pro-standarization
>I have some space left and I'm allowed to use CGI. I don't have the ability >to aquire my own domain name, the shortest I can offer ends in >"/~mth/phoenix/". But does a domain name really matter? Ofcourse it looks >cool, but anyone who's really interested can bookmark a more complicated URL. > You could always use some http://come.to/phoenix url, or something like that. Greetings Richard [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://home.student.utwente.nl/r.gerrits MSX Mailinglist. To unsubscribe, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and put in the body (not subject) "unsubscribe msx [EMAIL PROTECTED]" (without the quotes :-) Problems? contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] (www.stack.nl/~wiebe/mailinglist/)
[Phoenix] Re: Phoenix project - The new MSX platform pro-standarization
> > We know that MSX is a generational standard, theorically MSX-TR is > >compatible > >with MSX-1, MSX-2 and MSX-2+, MSX 2 with MSX-1...possible new MSX computers > >have to be compatible with MSX TR, 2+, 2 and 1 obviosly. > > I'm not sure turbo R compatibility would be a good thing. You would need an > R800-compatible processor for example, and as far as I know Z380 isn't. ??? ISN'T IT ??? Well, then maybe we can disassemble and adapt turboR-programs. I mean, the only non-Z380 compatible instructions are MULUW and MULUB, aren't they??? The other ones also work on a Z80 (though undocumented). I bet the Z380 has a good counterpart for MULUW and MULUB... So that shouldn't be too difficult. Just search for the opcode and replace it. Maybe then I can finally play Illusion City! To play Illusion City, is MIDI nessacary? And is the PCM device nessacary??? What other points of incompatibility could it have??? Well, actually I think a 'new' MSX should also have a PCM sampling device, so why not take the tuboR's sampleunit? > > The Phoenix directory in funet is a good idea, but it is neccesary to > >create a new mailing list, this ML has a big number of unuseful messages > >for developers, the new MSX mailing list is oriented only for MSX > >developers, so emulators, opinions about games or tips are strictly > >prohibited. > > The bad thing of a new list is that many people won't subscribe to it, > although they may have interesting ideas. Maybe we can use this list and > put "[Phoenix]" in the subject? Yes, yes. They do that in the int-fiction newsgroup too!!! Only one thing: A lot of people are subscribed to the newsgroup but not to this list (I can understand that, sometimes the message-flow is a bit much here, while you can skip them in a newsgroup. Although the subjects are way more interesting here...). So I think we should find a solution to that... Will a web-based forum work??? Just an idea... Although... I don't think it will be visited really frequently, like a mailinglist, which you are forced to pay attention to. Maybe someone should put all or the important messages concerning Phoenix (so with [Phoenix] in the subject-line) online on the Phoenix webpage, or something like that... > > If you have a good knownledge of WEB programming, contact with my POP3 > >adress: [EMAIL PROTECTED], I will coordinate the creation of a WEB > >programming group, now we need about 10 Mb or more of web space in a > >free server, it is important to have an own DNS. > > I have some space left and I'm allowed to use CGI. I don't have the ability > to aquire my own domain name, the shortest I can offer ends in > "/~mth/phoenix/". But does a domain name really matter? Ofcourse it looks > cool, but anyone who's really interested can bookmark a more complicated URL. It's not about bookmarking I think. you should be able to remember it, to tell about it to others... > Anyway, I am willing to put up some pages, but I would like to see some > material first. For example a discussion between hardware developers, or a > specification that can be released to the public. I think there is no point > in making a "Phoenix Web" when all there is to publish is good intentions. I definately agree with that, although I think a web-page should be put up, even just to introduce the people to Phoenix. ~Grauw -- >< email me: [EMAIL PROTECTED] or ICQ: 10196372 visit the Datax homepage at http://datax.cjb.net/ MSX fair Bussum / MSX Marathon homepage: http://msxfair.cjb.net/ >< MSX Mailinglist. To unsubscribe, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and put in the body (not subject) "unsubscribe msx [EMAIL PROTECTED]" (without the quotes :-) Problems? contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] (www.stack.nl/~wiebe/mailinglist/)
Re: Phoenix project - The new MSX platform pro-standarization
> >By the way, there was some guy (dunno where) developing an OPL3 board!!! > >Aargh! Let us make it MoonSound-compatible and convince this guy to use > >OPL4!!! (which can still be achieved). > > Why would he have to use OPL4? It would certainly be more expensive, > because the instrument ROM costs money (copyrights) and SRAM isn't cheap > either, especially 512K ICs. And probably the OPL3 itself is cheaper than > OPL4. > > I would have no problems as long as the OPL3 board would be compatible with > the OPL3 part of the MoonSound, which means it would have to use the same > I/O addresses. In that way, a single program could play music on both, FM > only ofcourse. Ah, okay, that's cool. So I can play every music made for that OPL3 cartridge on my OPL4??? Only the owners of such can't play compositions for the WAVE-part of the MoonSound??? Okay, that's fine by me. As long as I have a MoonSound. But I hope he doesn't add something like a PCM sampling device which is incompatible... Anyways, Vic Viper you say? Yes, I have him on my list... I'll ask him. ~Grauw -- >< email me: [EMAIL PROTECTED] or ICQ: 10196372 visit the Datax homepage at http://datax.cjb.net/ MSX fair Bussum / MSX Marathon homepage: http://msxfair.cjb.net/ >< MSX Mailinglist. To unsubscribe, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and put in the body (not subject) "unsubscribe msx [EMAIL PROTECTED]" (without the quotes :-) Problems? contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] (www.stack.nl/~wiebe/mailinglist/)
Re: Phoenix project - The new MSX platform pro-standarization
> >By the way, there was some guy (dunno where) developing an OPL3 board!!! > >Aargh! Let us make it MoonSound-compatible and convince this guy to use > >OPL4!!! (which can still be achieved). > > Why would he have to use OPL4? It would certainly be more expensive, > because the instrument ROM costs money (copyrights) and SRAM isn't cheap > either, especially 512K ICs. And probably the OPL3 itself is cheaper than > OPL4. > > I would have no problems as long as the OPL3 board would be compatible with > the OPL3 part of the MoonSound, which means it would have to use the same > I/O addresses. In that way, a single program could play music on both, FM > only ofcourse. Leonard Oliveira from Brazil is doing this. I talked with him about this on ICQ (his number is 2514302=Vic Viper) and he told me it would use indeed the same ports as Moonsound, so indeed, the FM part will be the same as Moonsound. This should provide a cheap alternative for Moonsound. It's quite a good idea. He told me the price would be around 50$, if I remember correctly. Maybe he can tell you more about this. Hey, at least something NEW is being developped again! ;-) (Noted, Koen? ;-) Grtjs, Manuel ((m)ICQ UIN 41947405) PS: MSX 4 EVER! (Questions? See: http://www.faq.msxnet.org/) PPS: Visit my homepage at http://www.sci.kun.nl/marie/home/manuelbi/ MSX Mailinglist. To unsubscribe, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and put in the body (not subject) "unsubscribe msx [EMAIL PROTECTED]" (without the quotes :-) Problems? contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] (www.stack.nl/~wiebe/mailinglist/)
Re: Phoenix project - The new MSX platform pro-standarization
At 12:56 PM 7/19/99 +0200, Laurens wrote: >But what about the developers which don't have internet-access??? I know >Hans van Oranje has, and others might be able to access the internet via >school or the library, but I don't think they all have internet-access. I think any developer who has money to build hardware prototypes can also afford internet access. And if not, so be it. With non-net means, you can't run a public international discussion efficiently. Image people sending in snail mail which is then printed in a magazine and sent to everyone. Very slow between updates and expensive as well. And flying all developers to a meeting is way out of our budget... >I don't agree with that. Software-developers must also have a "vinger in de >pap", because they are the ones who are going to use it, and they can tell >which things are useful, which not, and they can give very useful >suggestions or tips, for example on a feature which makes a certain board a >little more expensive, but at the same time is of a great help to >programmers (for example an external interrupt or so). There is a difference between "making suggestions" and "deciding". I think anyone should be able to make suggestions, but if anyone can decide, there will never be decisions because a large number of people won't agree unanimously. >Ah, this is very good. In a lot of projects the OPL4 of v9990 is not listed >or is listed but in an incompatible way... I'm very glad with this... By the way, MoonSound specifies more than just OPL4. Is specifies which ROM is used for instruments, it specifies the I/O ports used etc. >By the way, there was some guy (dunno where) developing an OPL3 board!!! >Aargh! Let us make it MoonSound-compatible and convince this guy to use >OPL4!!! (which can still be achieved). Why would he have to use OPL4? It would certainly be more expensive, because the instrument ROM costs money (copyrights) and SRAM isn't cheap either, especially 512K ICs. And probably the OPL3 itself is cheaper than OPL4. I would have no problems as long as the OPL3 board would be compatible with the OPL3 part of the MoonSound, which means it would have to use the same I/O addresses. In that way, a single program could play music on both, FM only ofcourse. Bye, Maarten MSX Mailinglist. To unsubscribe, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and put in the body (not subject) "unsubscribe msx [EMAIL PROTECTED]" (without the quotes :-) Problems? contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] (www.stack.nl/~wiebe/mailinglist/)
Re: R: Phoenix project - The new MSX platform pro-standarization
At 11:33 PM 7/17/99 +0200, you wrote: > As I told in another message, I think it is not neccesary the creation of >a special representation, Phoenix must be opened for all the users, like >Internet. I agree that the discussions and the specifications should be accessible to everyone. But how are decisions made? There will always be people with different opinions, but at some point there has to be a choice or otherwise you can't move on. > It is not neccesary to vote!, how many hardware developers we have??, in >Spain only Padial is involved in serious projects, Ademir in Brasil, our >friends of ESE in Japan, Sunrise in Holland...more?? Did you ever see anyone of ESE discuss on this list or the newsgroup? I think they either prefer to work alone or don't like English. About Sunrise, Sunrise Holland and Swiss have merged. As far as I know, they distribute hardware, but they don't have a "development staff". Whoever develops a project is different per project. About Henrik, who you mentioned a couple of times, I don't think he does MSX anymore. I haven't seen him on fairs for some time now and he didn't make new hardware or driver either (luckily Jon took over IDE BIOS development). >I think there arenit >more big hardware developers, so it is not difficult to stablish a mutual >agreement between them. The programmers will be beneficiated of this >agreement because they know the full compatibility guaranteed by Phoenix. Ah, so you want to give the hardware developers the right to decide... > Well, this is certainly complicated, I think Phoenix must assumpt the >system hardware developments like Z380, new musics board, new VDP boards... > Nowaday we have no problems because there is only a new music board and a >new VDP board (I think): Moonsound and GFX9000, but it could be a real >problem if somebody makes a new OPL4 incompatible with Moonsound, Phoenix >has the responsability in this kind of problems. I'm more concerned that 0 persons will make "device X" than that 2 persons will make incompatible devices. But maybe Phoenix can help there too, by combining efforts of developers it's easier to finish a project. > We know that MSX is a generational standard, theorically MSX-TR is >compatible >with MSX-1, MSX-2 and MSX-2+, MSX 2 with MSX-1...possible new MSX computers >have to be compatible with MSX TR, 2+, 2 and 1 obviosly. I'm not sure turbo R compatibility would be a good thing. You would need an R800-compatible processor for example, and as far as I know Z380 isn't. > The Phoenix directory in funet is a good idea, but it is neccesary to >create a new mailing list, this ML has a big number of unuseful messages >for developers, the new MSX mailing list is oriented only for MSX >developers, so emulators, opinions about games or tips are strictly >prohibited. The bad thing of a new list is that many people won't subscribe to it, although they may have interesting ideas. Maybe we can use this list and put "[Phoenix]" in the subject? > If you have a good knownledge of WEB programming, contact with my POP3 >adress: [EMAIL PROTECTED], I will coordinate the creation of a WEB >programming group, now we need about 10 Mb or more of web space in a >free server, it is important to have an own DNS. I have some space left and I'm allowed to use CGI. I don't have the ability to aquire my own domain name, the shortest I can offer ends in "/~mth/phoenix/". But does a domain name really matter? Ofcourse it looks cool, but anyone who's really interested can bookmark a more complicated URL. Anyway, I am willing to put up some pages, but I would like to see some material first. For example a discussion between hardware developers, or a specification that can be released to the public. I think there is no point in making a "Phoenix Web" when all there is to publish is good intentions. Bye, Maarten MSX Mailinglist. To unsubscribe, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and put in the body (not subject) "unsubscribe msx [EMAIL PROTECTED]" (without the quotes :-) Problems? contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] (www.stack.nl/~wiebe/mailinglist/)
Re: Phoenix project - The new MSX platform pro-standarization
> >have the guarantee of a full compatibility between different > projects and a > It's a good idea to standardize the new MSX efforts, it will Iim sure that Phoenix is something needed for the MSX system, and with Phoenix all the programmers will be in contact with hardware developers to work together. > > But I wonder, how will the Phoenix standard be decided? > > As I said Phoenix depends on Internet, there is no discussion about this, >therefore Phoenix must be decided in Internet, I will contact with Tristan >and Funet will have a Phoenix directory, Padial will publish schemas and >complete information about the finished projects. > The Phoenix web is another important part. But what about the developers which don't have internet-access??? I know Hans van Oranje has, and others might be able to access the internet via school or the library, but I don't think they all have internet-access. > > like. Some people want full compatibility with nowadays MSX, > > other people > > want a machine that will run Linux, some are willing to pay > > The real users want a evolution, full compatibility with old MSX but new >possibilities, this means a real hardware revolution, maybe Z380 could be >the key for a new MSX future, for the moment Padial have sold 35 Z380 >boards without finishing it, so it is important to give a real support >for new hardware developments. > > > An alternative to consensus would be voting, in that case > > who gets to vote? Anyone who subscribes to a Phoenix mailinglist? > > This is not neccesary, how many hardware developers are in the world??, >maybe with the hand fingers is enough to count them, there are many >programmers, but the programmers depends on the hardware developers, so >the main characters of Phoenix are the hardware developers: > > Padial, Ademir, Culla, ESE, Henrik... I don't agree with that. Software-developers must also have a "vinger in de pap", because they are the ones who are going to use it, and they can tell which things are useful, which not, and they can give very useful suggestions or tips, for example on a feature which makes a certain board a little more expensive, but at the same time is of a great help to programmers (for example an external interrupt or so). > We need to stablish a real relationship between them, in that time Phoenix >will be running, but before that we must give them an Internet support. no comments > > Another question: what are the starting assumptions for Phoenix? > > Well, this is certainly complicated, I think Phoenix must assumpt the >system hardware developments like Z380, new musics board, new VDP boards... > Nowaday we have no problems because there is only a new music board and a >new VDP board (I think): Moonsound and GFX9000, but it could be a real >problem if somebody makes a new OPL4 incompatible with Moonsound, Phoenix >has the responsability in this kind of problems. Ah, this is very good. In a lot of projects the OPL4 of v9990 is not listed or is listed but in an incompatible way... I'm very glad with this... relieved. By the way, there was some guy (dunno where) developing an OPL3 board!!! Aargh! Let us make it MoonSound-compatible and convince this guy to use OPL4!!! (which can still be achieved). Oh, by the way, I think a new MSX must have a decent timer of which the speed can be set and which can generate an interrupt. This is definately useful, in example for JoyNet. >> you write MSX, do you mean "something that is 99% compatible > > with MSX2" or > > do you mean "something that carries the spirit of MSX" or > > something else? > > We know that MSX is a generational standard, theorically MSX-TR is compatible >with MSX-1, MSX-2 and MSX-2+, MSX 2 with MSX-1...possible new MSX computers >have to be compatible with MSX TR, 2+, 2 and 1 obviosly. Ok, that is perfect. > > >developers and programmers for getting a common agreement. > > I have experience in web and software. > > mailinglist), but maybe it's easier to use existing services, > > Phoenix directory on funet. > > The Phoenix directory in funet is a good idea, but it is neccesary to >create a new mailing list, this ML has a big number of unuseful messages >for developers, the new MSX mailing list is oriented only for MSX >developers, so emulators, opinions about games or tips are strictly >prohibited. This mailinglist is, I have to say, quite emulator-less... Compare it with news://comp.sys.msx which has a lot of emulator-talk. > If you have a good knownledge of WEB programming, contact with my POP3 >adress: [EMAIL PROTECTED], I will coordinate the creation of a WEB >programming group, now we need about 10 Mb or more of web space in a >free server, it is important to have an own DNS. I can program HTML and a little java(script), and I'm learning CGI. So I might be able to help. About free webspace: I know how you can disable the advertisements in Geocities, so you can get 11MB of free space without ads. And if you use a nice URL redire
Re: Phoenix project - The new MSX platform pro-standarization
-Hola, Maarten! > >have the guarantee of a full compatibility between different > projects and a > It's a good idea to standardize the new MSX efforts, it will Iim sure that Phoenix is something needed for the MSX system, and with Phoenix all the programmers will be in contact with hardware developers to work together. > But I wonder, how will the Phoenix standard be decided? As I said Phoenix depends on Internet, there is no discussion about this, therefore Phoenix must be decided in Internet, I will contact with Tristan and Funet will have a Phoenix directory, Padial will publish schemas and complete information about the finished projects. The Phoenix web is another important part. > like. Some people want full compatibility with nowadays MSX, > other people > want a machine that will run Linux, some are willing to pay The real users want a evolution, full compatibility with old MSX but new possibilities, this means a real hardware revolution, maybe Z380 could be the key for a new MSX future, for the moment Padial have sold 35 Z380 boards without finishing it, so it is important to give a real support for new hardware developments. > An alternative to consensus would be voting, in that case > who gets to vote? Anyone who subscribes to a Phoenix mailinglist? This is not neccesary, how many hardware developers are in the world??, maybe with the hand fingers is enough to count them, there are many programmers, but the programmers depends on the hardware developers, so the main characters of Phoenix are the hardware developers: Padial, Ademir, Culla, ESE, Henrik... We need to stablish a real relationship between them, in that time Phoenix will be running, but before that we must give them an Internet support. > Another question: what are the starting assumptions for Phoenix? Well, this is certainly complicated, I think Phoenix must assumpt the system hardware developments like Z380, new musics board, new VDP boards... Nowaday we have no problems because there is only a new music board and a new VDP board (I think): Moonsound and GFX9000, but it could be a real problem if somebody makes a new OPL4 incompatible with Moonsound, Phoenix has the responsability in this kind of problems. > you write MSX, do you mean "something that is 99% compatible > with MSX2" or > do you mean "something that carries the spirit of MSX" or > something else? We know that MSX is a generational standard, theorically MSX-TR is compatible with MSX-1, MSX-2 and MSX-2+, MSX 2 with MSX-1...possible new MSX computers have to be compatible with MSX TR, 2+, 2 and 1 obviosly. > >developers and programmers for getting a common agreement. > I have experience in web and software. > mailinglist), but maybe it's easier to use existing services, > Phoenix directory on funet. The Phoenix directory in funet is a good idea, but it is neccesary to create a new mailing list, this ML has a big number of unuseful messages for developers, the new MSX mailing list is oriented only for MSX developers, so emulators, opinions about games or tips are strictly prohibited. If you have a good knownledge of WEB programming, contact with my POP3 adress: [EMAIL PROTECTED], I will coordinate the creation of a WEB programming group, now we need about 10 Mb or more of web space in a free server, it is important to have an own DNS. Bye, /// MSX Power Replay \\\ - [EMAIL PROTECTED] - \\\2:341/66.17 /// \\ members.xoom.com/MSXlive // MSX Mailinglist. To unsubscribe, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and put in the body (not subject) "unsubscribe msx [EMAIL PROTECTED]" (without the quotes :-) Problems? contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] (www.stack.nl/~wiebe/mailinglist/)
Re: R: Phoenix project - The new MSX platform pro-standarization
-Hola, Maarten! > >What about a vote for every country involved in this new > >country will be responsable for the election of its man. > I don't think distributing votes per country is such a good > And even if you want to distribute votes per country, it > would be better to > allow several representatives per country instead of just > one, like Laurens > suggested. To make the representation fair, the number of As I told in another message, I think it is not neccesary the creation of a special representation, Phoenix must be opened for all the users, like Internet. > If some > group of "wise men" decides upon a standard and no hardware > (or software ;) > developer wants to build it, it useless... Exactly!, I think the best idea is to make an Internet support for MSX developers, Iim sure all the developers will user this support, por example, if Padial needs a routine for a new interface, he write a message in the Phoenix mailing list asking for the service of a programmer, the programmer contact with Padial and Padial publish the new interface schemas in the FTP, programmer download it and start to program the routin, he send it directly to Padial, Padial test it and it is OK, Padial finish the project before another hardware developer making the same, they were in contact and now thanks to Phoenix the other hardware developer can take those routines for his interface and adapt it. Once time the new X interface from Padial and Henrik (ie) is finished under Phoenix rules, Phoenix gives the seal for this new harware developments, now all the buyers can comprobate that Phoenix gave the seal and they are sure of a full compatibility between the two kinds of X interfaces. I think this could become true, letis hope. /// MSX Power Replay \\\ - [EMAIL PROTECTED] - \\\2:341/66.17 /// \\ members.xoom.com/MSXlive // MSX Mailinglist. To unsubscribe, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and put in the body (not subject) "unsubscribe msx [EMAIL PROTECTED]" (without the quotes :-) Problems? contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] (www.stack.nl/~wiebe/mailinglist/)
Re: R: Phoenix project - The new MSX platform pro-standarization
-Hola, Ricardo! > Many things needs to be done. > Something to be remembered: There are many countries where > you can find > MSX-freaks, but unfortunately you can't count more than 10 > users. In > Holland, there were much more. So, does the vote of North It is not neccesary to vote!, how many hardware developers we have??, in Spain only Padial is involved in serious projects, Ademir in Brasil, our friends of ESE in Japan, Sunrise in Holland...more??, I think there arenit more big hardware developers, so it is not difficult to stablish a mutual agreement between them. The programmers will be beneficiated of this agreement because they know the full compatibility guaranteed by Phoenix. Bye, /// MSX Power Replay \\\ - [EMAIL PROTECTED] - \\\2:341/66.17 /// \\ members.xoom.com/MSXlive // MSX Mailinglist. To unsubscribe, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and put in the body (not subject) "unsubscribe msx [EMAIL PROTECTED]" (without the quotes :-) Problems? contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] (www.stack.nl/~wiebe/mailinglist/)
Re: R: Phoenix project - The new MSX platform pro-standarization
On Tue, 13 Jul 1999 19:59:20 +0200, Maarten ter Huurne wrote: >Actually I'm not even sure voting is the best solution, since it will not >just have to be a standard, it will also have to be implemented. If some >group of "wise men" decides upon a standard and no hardware (or software ;) >developer wants to build it, it useless... I think the problem is that we need to choose solutions that are accepted by most of Hardware creators and Software Developers, it's not possible to find a solution that is right for everyone . So we can chose one or two people from every group interested in developing new hardware and in supporting it. This group of people takes part in the Phoenix Mailing List and report the discussion to his group. So we have a little group of people that rappresent a lot of people. by Frengo Miri Software MSX Computer System Italy e-mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED] HomePage :http://Frengo.dragonfire.net/MSX.HTM *** MSX Mailinglist. To unsubscribe, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and put in the body (not subject) "unsubscribe msx [EMAIL PROTECTED]" (without the quotes :-) Problems? contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] (www.stack.nl/~wiebe/mailinglist/)
Re: R: Phoenix project - The new MSX platform pro-standarization
At 13:29 13/07/99 +0200, you wrote: >What about a vote for every country involved in this new project. Every >country will be responsable for the election of its man. >Spanish, Japanese, Franch, Italian, Netherlands, German, Swiss, etc ... all >nations one man. Excuse me, but aren't you forgetting one country? Brazil. >Voting is thge best soulution, I think. Moreover, with this system, I'm sure >that the man that will be able to vote, will be a true MSXer, not one only >courious. Yep, sure. >The future of our system has to be decided by man very active for our >system. Name as Pazos, Maarten, Padial, Laurens, Adriano are the right >choice. But as I said at the beginning of this mail, any nation will decide >for its man. I think it should be a MSX-freak who isn't flooded with a lot of projects, usergroups' activities, etc., so he/she can give more time to the Phoenix platform. Almost all must be discussed, mainly in English, so it would demands time. I'd rather choose 2 people from each country. The 2nd would be the 'backup'. =) >A ml for this project will be done, so coders and hw makers will be able to >decide how to develop this new project. (I hope 100% MSX with new features >:-)) Many things needs to be done. Something to be remembered: There are many countries where you can find MSX-freaks, but unfortunately you can't count more than 10 users. In Holland, there were much more. So, does the vote of North Yemen, 4 example (Yamaha sold MSXs to them, don't forget!) has the same value of Spain's vote? Ricardo Jurczyk Pinheiro - ICQ UIN:3635907 - [EMAIL PROTECTED]|_Sola Scriptura | http://i.am/rjp -M.Sc. Numerical Modelling (hope so!) |_ Sola Gratia | UFF - Niteroi - RJ - Brazil - [EMAIL PROTECTED]_| Sola Fide | MSX, ST, B5, X-F, Anime, Christian, Maths, CuD, Linux!_| Solo Cristi | Christian, Rock, Comics, Transformers, and hate M$! | Soli Deo Gloria | MSX Mailinglist. To unsubscribe, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and put in the body (not subject) "unsubscribe msx [EMAIL PROTECTED]" (without the quotes :-) Problems? contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] (www.stack.nl/~wiebe/mailinglist/)
Re: R: Phoenix project - The new MSX platform pro-standarization
At 01:29 PM 7/13/99 +0200, you wrote: >What about a vote for every country involved in this new project. Every >country will be responsable for the election of its man. >Spanish, Japanese, Franch, Italian, Netherlands, German, Swiss, etc ... all >nations one man. I don't think distributing votes per country is such a good idea. What countries will be included and which won't? MSXes exist in many countries, but sometimes only in very small numbers. What if there happens to be exactly one MSXer in, say, Iceland? Will he/she be given a vote? And even if you want to distribute votes per country, it would be better to allow several representatives per country instead of just one, like Laurens suggested. To make the representation fair, the number of MSXers per country would have to be estimated. Countries with more MSXers will get more votes. But there is also a more fundamental problem with allocating votes per country. I mean, this is an international MSX cooperation, opinions about MSX (example: pro/con software emulated parts) are probably more important than nationality. Some opinions may be culturally influenced (Japanese generally like small things), but most are personal. A possible system would be that a group of N voters would be formed, where N is fixed in advance. Anyone who wants to be a candidate can apply. Then everyone can vote for a candidate by either e-mail or web form. The N candidates with the most votes get into the group and vote over all development issues. Actually I'm not even sure voting is the best solution, since it will not just have to be a standard, it will also have to be implemented. If some group of "wise men" decides upon a standard and no hardware (or software ;) developer wants to build it, it useless... Bye, Maarten MSX Mailinglist. To unsubscribe, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and put in the body (not subject) "unsubscribe msx [EMAIL PROTECTED]" (without the quotes :-) Problems? contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] (www.stack.nl/~wiebe/mailinglist/)
Re: Phoenix project - The new MSX platform pro-standarization
> What about a vote for every country involved in this new project. Every > country will be responsable for the election of its man. > Spanish, Japanese, Franch, Italian, Netherlands, German, Swiss, etc ... all > nations one man. > Voting is thge best soulution, I think. Moreover, with this system, I'm sure > that the man that will be able to vote, will be a true MSXer, not one only > courious. > The future of our system has to be decided by man very active for our > system. Name as Pazos, Maarten, Padial, Laurens, Adriano are the right > choice. But as I said at the beginning of this mail, any nation will decide > for its man. Well thanks for mentioning me... But I think every country should have an 'emissary' or whatever it's called, consisting out of three or four persons. Because the opinion of one man can be very different than the opinion of the rest. Maarten, for example, thinks software emulation is ok, provided it's done right. But I don't agree with that... So that's actually my point. Also, maybe I know a lot about the coding etc, but others might know better if those hardware-parts needed for that can be obtained. > A ml for this project will be done, so coders and hw makers will be able to > decide how to develop this new project. (I hope 100% MSX with new features > :-)) I hope too. And indeed, a standarization of all those new MSXes announced was nessacary. Maybe all those people will start cooperating a bit more. And then, maybe, finally a project will be finished. By the way, could someone make a >>simple<< board like 7MHz to replace my Z80 with a Z380 running at high-speed, but delaying the processor on speed-sensitive ports? I don't need the extra features like new instructions, or additional features like gfx, sound, I already have a MoonSound etc. I just want the speed, so that compiling assembly-code, etc. goes a bit faster. ~Grauw MSX Mailinglist. To unsubscribe, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and put in the body (not subject) "unsubscribe msx [EMAIL PROTECTED]" (without the quotes :-) Problems? contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] (www.stack.nl/~wiebe/mailinglist/)
R: Phoenix project - The new MSX platform pro-standarization
What about a vote for every country involved in this new project. Every country will be responsable for the election of its man. Spanish, Japanese, Franch, Italian, Netherlands, German, Swiss, etc ... all nations one man. Voting is thge best soulution, I think. Moreover, with this system, I'm sure that the man that will be able to vote, will be a true MSXer, not one only courious. The future of our system has to be decided by man very active for our system. Name as Pazos, Maarten, Padial, Laurens, Adriano are the right choice. But as I said at the beginning of this mail, any nation will decide for its man. A ml for this project will be done, so coders and hw makers will be able to decide how to develop this new project. (I hope 100% MSX with new features :-)) Bye, Stefano -Messaggio Originale- Da: Maarten ter Huurne <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> A: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Data invio: lunedì 12 luglio 1999 13.52 Oggetto: Re: Phoenix project - The new MSX platform pro-standarization At 10:39 PM 7/11/99 +0200, you wrote: > WHAT IS PHOENIX PLATFORM??? > > Phoenix is a new name for a new MSX evolution, with Phoenix the MSX users >have the guarantee of a full compatibility between different projects and a >big number of software specifically designed for your piece of hardware. >This means that if you buy the Z380 board of Padial you will can use the >software designed in the Z380 board of another hardware developer. It's a good idea to standardize the new MSX efforts, it will improve their chances of success. But I wonder, how will the Phoenix standard be decided? There have been many discussions about new MSX standards on this list and the newsgroup, but there was never consensus about what new MSX should be like. Some people want full compatibility with nowadays MSX, other people want a machine that will run Linux, some are willing to pay a lot, others want a cheap system etc. So if the Phoenix standard would be decided upon by consensus, I think it is sure to fail. An alternative to consensus would be voting, in that case the question is: who gets to vote? Anyone who subscribes to a Phoenix mailinglist? A selected group? You must understand that I (and probably many others) are a bit sceptical about new MSX projects, since many were announced and none were ever completed. For people to have faith in Phoenix, it would have to be clear that it will not be another dream that will never become reality. Another question: what are the starting assumptions for Phoenix? You talk about Z380, is that a fixed fact or is it a possibility? And when you write MSX, do you mean "something that is 99% compatible with MSX2" or do you mean "something that carries the spirit of MSX" or something else? > Collaboration, this is a good idea of Paco Molla Gandía, Jesús Tarela and >Rafael Corrales Pulido, we need more interested people in making Phoenix, we >need technical support, a new WEB, a FTP server and a new MSX mailing list, >we need translators, and a concrete list of hardware developers and concrete >projects. We will start stablishing a relationship between MSX hardware >developers and programmers for getting a common agreement. I have experience in web and software. Stack may be willing to host some services (they already host this mailinglist), but maybe it's easier to use existing services, like making a Phoenix directory on funet. Bye, Maarten MSX Mailinglist. To unsubscribe, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and put in the body (not subject) "unsubscribe msx [EMAIL PROTECTED]" (without the quotes :-) Problems? contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] (www.stack.nl/~wiebe/mailinglist/) MSX Mailinglist. To unsubscribe, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and put in the body (not subject) "unsubscribe msx [EMAIL PROTECTED]" (without the quotes :-) Problems? contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] (www.stack.nl/~wiebe/mailinglist/)
Re: Phoenix project - The new MSX platform pro-standarization
> mailinglist), but maybe it's easier to use existing services, like making > a Phoenix directory on funet. > > Bye, > Maarten No problem. Give me some content and I will put it online. Tristan + Omega + join #msx on undernet +[EMAIL PROTECTED]+ | | FUNET MSX maintainer | ftp://ftp.funet.fi/pub/msx | + irc: OmegaMSX +Techno composer+ http://users.bart.nl/~omegamsx + MSX Mailinglist. To unsubscribe, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and put in the body (not subject) "unsubscribe msx [EMAIL PROTECTED]" (without the quotes :-) Problems? contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] (www.stack.nl/~wiebe/mailinglist/)
Re: Phoenix project - The new MSX platform pro-standarization
At 10:39 PM 7/11/99 +0200, you wrote: > WHAT IS PHOENIX PLATFORM??? > > Phoenix is a new name for a new MSX evolution, with Phoenix the MSX users >have the guarantee of a full compatibility between different projects and a >big number of software specifically designed for your piece of hardware. >This means that if you buy the Z380 board of Padial you will can use the >software designed in the Z380 board of another hardware developer. It's a good idea to standardize the new MSX efforts, it will improve their chances of success. But I wonder, how will the Phoenix standard be decided? There have been many discussions about new MSX standards on this list and the newsgroup, but there was never consensus about what new MSX should be like. Some people want full compatibility with nowadays MSX, other people want a machine that will run Linux, some are willing to pay a lot, others want a cheap system etc. So if the Phoenix standard would be decided upon by consensus, I think it is sure to fail. An alternative to consensus would be voting, in that case the question is: who gets to vote? Anyone who subscribes to a Phoenix mailinglist? A selected group? You must understand that I (and probably many others) are a bit sceptical about new MSX projects, since many were announced and none were ever completed. For people to have faith in Phoenix, it would have to be clear that it will not be another dream that will never become reality. Another question: what are the starting assumptions for Phoenix? You talk about Z380, is that a fixed fact or is it a possibility? And when you write MSX, do you mean "something that is 99% compatible with MSX2" or do you mean "something that carries the spirit of MSX" or something else? > Collaboration, this is a good idea of Paco Molla Gandía, Jesús Tarela and >Rafael Corrales Pulido, we need more interested people in making Phoenix, we >need technical support, a new WEB, a FTP server and a new MSX mailing list, >we need translators, and a concrete list of hardware developers and concrete >projects. We will start stablishing a relationship between MSX hardware >developers and programmers for getting a common agreement. I have experience in web and software. Stack may be willing to host some services (they already host this mailinglist), but maybe it's easier to use existing services, like making a Phoenix directory on funet. Bye, Maarten MSX Mailinglist. To unsubscribe, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and put in the body (not subject) "unsubscribe msx [EMAIL PROTECTED]" (without the quotes :-) Problems? contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] (www.stack.nl/~wiebe/mailinglist/)
Re: Phoenix project - The new MSX platform pro-standarization
I still don't get this. Is it some kind of large database for MSX-programmers??? Well in that case, there already is a mailinglist, this list. And the FTP is Funet FTP I guess... ~Grauw MSX Mailinglist. To unsubscribe, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and put in the body (not subject) "unsubscribe msx [EMAIL PROTECTED]" (without the quotes :-) Problems? contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] (www.stack.nl/~wiebe/mailinglist/)
Phoenix project - The new MSX platform pro-standarization
Hello MSX users, I suppose many users are worried about the new MSX hardware projects, they think that this hardware could not have enough software for enjoying it, or that the other project is better and incompatible with this project... WHAT IS PHOENIX PLATFORM??? Phoenix is a new name for a new MSX evolution, with Phoenix the MSX users have the guarantee of a full compatibility between different projects and a big number of software specifically designed for your piece of hardware. This means that if you buy the Z380 board of Padial you will can use the software designed in the Z380 board of another hardware developer. WHO MAKES THIS PLATFORM??? Phoenix will be a part of all the MSX webs in the worldwide and a fix section in the MSX magazines, Phoenix is made by distribuitors, MSX asociations, clubs and all the hardware and software developers, Phoenix consists in a technical mailing list, special FTP, and a section for all the interested users. WHAT WE NEED TO MAKE PHOENIX??? Collaboration, this is a good idea of Paco Molla Gandía, Jesús Tarela and Rafael Corrales Pulido, we need more interested people in making Phoenix, we need technical support, a new WEB, a FTP server and a new MSX mailing list, we need translators, and a concrete list of hardware developers and concrete projects. We will start stablishing a relationship between MSX hardware developers and programmers for getting a common agreement. AND THE ADVANTAGES??? Less work for the hardware developers, they have a good mailing list for getting information, a good FTP server for dowloading new routines, and a web for publish news or questions. Phoenix gives a quality seal for all the projects created under the Phoenix rules, this is a guarantee of full MSX compatibility. WHEN WE START??? NOW, we need your help, if you are a hardware developer, contact with our club, we will ask you some questions, we need interested programmers. We will get special discounts for software developers and great offers for hardware developers. As soon as we get collaborators, we will publish information in this mailing list, we need also HTML editors, Internet collaborators, and interested clubs and magazines, we want to be in all the MSX fairs. PHOENIX is not a single user, Phoenix is not a club, Phoenix is not only a spanish project, Phoenix is a MSX neccesity, Phoenix is all the MSX users and Phoenix lives if MSX lives, please, send us your sugestions, collaborations... *** MSX Power Replay *** ** [EMAIL PROTECTED] ** http://usuarios.meridian.es/replay ICQ: 34051098 MSX Mailinglist. To unsubscribe, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and put in the body (not subject) "unsubscribe msx [EMAIL PROTECTED]" (without the quotes :-) Problems? contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] (www.stack.nl/~wiebe/mailinglist/)
