Re: LEGAL information about MySQL.

[Calin Pop]

Hi all,

First I want to say I am a MySQL fan.

I think MySQL AB interpretation of GPL creates confusion too. Do they intend
to crete and keep alive this confusion ? What for?...

Let me show you something taken from MySQL Reference Manual for version
4.0.2-alpha

You can use the MySQL software for free under the GPL:
.
* When you distribute the MySQL source code bundled with other programs that
are not linked to or dependent on MySQL Server for their functionality even
if you sell the distribution commercially.


Consider the following exaples:

PROGRAM1 EMBEDS_MySQL {
do things
...
}

2)
PROGRAM2 {
CONECT_TO_MySQL
..
}
where:

CONNECT_TO_MySQL = querying MySQL using it's user interfaces.
EMBEDS_MySQL = linking to MySQL, depends on MySQL ... anything but
CONNECT_TO MYSQL.

I thing PROGRAM1 must be distributet under GPL but PROGRAM2 can be
distributed with any license.

I may be wrong but I think MySQL ab doesn't say clearly( at least in the
user's manual) what I just said above. More than that, reading the manual
creates me the impresion that I must distribute the PROGRAM2 under GPL( this
also is not explicitly said).

Of course, they can define MySQL as a system insted of defining it as a
database engine. This way, doing anything with MySQL, even just
CONNECTING_TO_MYSQL, the result is a new system( MySQL+my PROGRAM2) that
should be released under GPL. This definitoin of MySQL would be just a joke
(define and give me the source codes of your system).

Why MySQL AB does not try to explicitly define what the words dependent
on MySQL mean? Do they want to create confusion? Again, what for?








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Re: LEGAL information about MySQL.

[Daniel Kiss]

Hi,

Well I think the licence rules of MySQL are not that comlicated than you 
wrote below.
I studied this a few month ago, and I interpret it much simplier.

1. You develop a software under GPL which uses MySQL (connects to, 
includes, uses, etc. whatever).
  In this case you don't need any licence for MySQL, of course.

2. You develop a commercial application (and you do not distribute the 
source code of it).
  In this case you have two choices depending on your application.
  a) Your application needs the MySQL server, because it is a database 
handler application.
  In this case you have to buy licence(s), but it is not you, who has 
to buy it. Your purchaser is the one who has to do this if he wants to use 
your application.
  b) Your application CAN use MySQL server as an alternative SQL server, 
but is is able to use other(s), too. For example, your application can use 
MySQL and PostgreSQL and MS SQL for the same task as alternatives.
  In this case your purchaser don't need to buy any MySQL licence to 
use it.


So this is how I interpret the licence stategy of MySQL AB. Please correct 
me if i have mistaken in something.

Bye,
Daniel

At 10:41 2002.12.11.dø+0200, you wrote:
Hi all,

First I want to say I am a MySQL fan.

I think MySQL AB interpretation of GPL creates confusion too. Do they intend
to crete and keep alive this confusion ? What for?...

Let me show you something taken from MySQL Reference Manual for version
4.0.2-alpha

You can use the MySQL software for free under the GPL:
.
* When you distribute the MySQL source code bundled with other programs that
are not linked to or dependent on MySQL Server for their functionality even
if you sell the distribution commercially.


Consider the following exaples:

PROGRAM1 EMBEDS_MySQL {
do things
...
}

2)
PROGRAM2 {
CONECT_TO_MySQL
..
}
where:

CONNECT_TO_MySQL = querying MySQL using it's user interfaces.
EMBEDS_MySQL = linking to MySQL, depends on MySQL ... anything but
CONNECT_TO MYSQL.

I thing PROGRAM1 must be distributet under GPL but PROGRAM2 can be
distributed with any license.

I may be wrong but I think MySQL ab doesn't say clearly( at least in the
user's manual) what I just said above. More than that, reading the manual
creates me the impresion that I must distribute the PROGRAM2 under GPL( this
also is not explicitly said).

Of course, they can define MySQL as a system insted of defining it as a
database engine. This way, doing anything with MySQL, even just
CONNECTING_TO_MYSQL, the result is a new system( MySQL+my PROGRAM2) that
should be released under GPL. This definitoin of MySQL would be just a joke
(define and give me the source codes of your system).

Why MySQL AB does not try to explicitly define what the words dependent
on MySQL mean? Do they want to create confusion? Again, what for?








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Re: LEGAL information about MySQL. (troll?)

[Michael T. Babcock]

On Wed, Dec 11, 2002 at 10:41:39AM +0200, Calin Pop wrote:
 I thing PROGRAM1 must be distributet under GPL but PROGRAM2 can be
 distributed with any license.

RANT
 IANAL Comment=Lawyers get paid more than I do; call one

I've given my interpretation before, and you should probably read it;
if you link against the mysql client library to connect to the server then
you're linking against GPL'd code and must GPL your program (or provide
at least the same rights as the GPL does and no less).  If you don't like
that and expect it to work as you mentionned, use the 3.2x.xx libraries
as they are LGPL'd (after a certain point, to my knowledge).  This allows
you to link against (but careful with distributing) them without GPL'ing
your product.

 /IANAL

The _BEST_ link to read for this information is the text of the LGPL, since
it details why one would choose to use the LGPL over the GPL (or vice versa)
and you'll find that those reasons are the list of rights you want.  Read
especially the link Why you shouldn't use the LGPL ...

 * http://www.gnu.org/copyleft/lgpl.html
 * http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/why-not-lgpl.html

/RANT

SPAM TYPE=NOT NOTES=SQL, QUERY /
-- 
Michael T. Babcock
CTO, FibreSpeed Ltd. (Hosting, Security, Consultation, Database, etc)
http://www.fibrespeed.net/~mbabcock/

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Re: LEGAL information about MySQL.

[David Axmark]

On Sat, 2002-11-30 at 13:42, Pae Choi wrote:
 I do not know about MySQL marketing strategies. But as far as
 GPL goes, it even encourge to sell.
 
 
 Does the GPL allow me to sell copies of the program for money?
 Yes, the GPL allows everyone to do this. The [1]right to sell copies is part
 of the definition of free software. Except in one special situation, there
 is no limit on what price you can charge. (The one exception is the required
 written offer to provide source code that must accompany binary-only
 release.)
 
 [1] http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/selling.html
 
 
 Maybe MySQL.com is concern about own profit so does other
 commercial vendors. They all use public-domain code in some
 degree.
 
 I do encourge everyone same as GPL to sell your own products
 without concerning about license violation. Just put the copy of
 GPL license, as well as source and binary combo. in the
 corresponding package. (I personally think that the binary will
 be a necesssary portion when you distribute your own products
 and provide the URL where they can download the source.) And
 you can have your own license in your products.

You are wrong. I have talked with the people who wrote the GPL many
times and if you did the above they (or us if it where MySQL you
mistreated) will send you some legal letters.

You must provide the source for the combined work when you distribute
under the GPL. But you can sell the MySQL code for money under the GPL
without our approval. But you may not use our trademark. And you can
not stop the customer giving it all away for free (since you had to
give him/her source code).

I have been in court once discussing this issue and I would like to
stay out of those kind of issues for the rest of my life.

 You have all the rights for your own products same as the GPL
 packages do for their own.

/David
MySQL Co-Founder


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Re: LEGAL information about MySQL.

[David Axmark]

On Sat, 2002-11-30 at 10:51, Mark wrote:
 - Original Message -
 From: Mark Matthews [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 To: Pae Choi [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Cc: Tonu Samuel [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Darney Lampert
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Sent: Saturday, November 30, 2002 5:30 AM
 Subject: Re: LEGAL information about MySQL.
 
 
  If you are not sure exactly how the GPL works, and you have read
  the license terms that I've referenced above, and still want to
  distribute your software that uses and/or links to software licensed
  under the GPL, I suggest you first seek a lawyer's opinion, and have
  it explained to you in non-legalese.
 
 Are you suggesting that every program that uses MySQL has to be GPL?? I
 doubt that. If so, you are effectively saying, for instance, that no program
 written in Perl could ever be non-GPL (as all Perl scripts use/link to GPL
 Perl). And this is, of course, not the case. There are many commercial
 products out there, like Perl debuggers, for example, that are definitely
 NOT licenced GPL, yet still use/link to Perl.

With MySQL 4.0 that has a GPL client every program that is distributed
linked with MySQL needs to be under a GPL compatible license. We will
extend the compatibility to cover a given set of OSI (opensource.org)
approved licenses.

As for Perl is has two licenses one which is less restrictive than the
GPL.

 I read the MySQL Licensing Policy, and, to me, it said: If your application
 is NOT licensed under GPL or compatible OSI license approved by MySQL AB and
 you intend to distribute MySQL software (be that internally or externally),
 you must first obtain a commercial license to the MySQL software in
 question.
 
 The licence talks about DISTRIBUTING the MySQL software itself; or, as it
 says, More specifically: a) If you include the MySQL server in your non
 Open Source application, you need a commercial licence for the MySQL server,
 b) If you include one of the MySQL drivers in your non Open Source
 application (so that your application can run with MySQL), you need a
 commercial licence for the driver(s) in question. The MySQL drivers
 currently include an ODBC driver, a JDBC driver and the C language library.
 
 Except, of course, that most people do NOT distribute MySQL software, or
 drivers with their own programs. Besides, if I write a program in Perl,
 which
 uses MySQL, it is still Perl that distributes drivers and such. My OWN
 program does no such thing. My program just says: Use DBI;.

Sorry, but MySQL is a part of the combined work. So if you distribute a
Perl program that is indirectly linked with MySQL you need to distribute
the source of you program. 

/David
MySQL Co-Founder


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Re: [OT] LEGAL information about MySQL.

[David Axmark]

On Mon, 2002-12-02 at 14:45, Darney Lampert wrote:
 Sorry continue this subject ... I´m the author original question, LEGAL 
 information about MySQL.
 But I Think that my question is simple and the other answers do not make 
 sense to me.
 I never said that I change original MySQL source code, and I just want know 
 if I can use MySQL database on
 my comercial application without pay for it. My application ONLY access MySQL.

Our basic answer is No. If you ship MySQL (server or client) with a
commercial (non opensource) application you should pay.

 I develop a program with Delphi with access MySQL database. I'll sell my
 program, and ONLY give a copy of MySQL to the users, or indicate the place
 to download to them.

 Does my client need to pay a license to MySQL AB?

Not, it actually you who need to pay in this case. Or you can
distribute with source code (just like we do!).

 Other case:
 I develop a web-site with PHP wich access MySQL database to a client who
 paid for it. The users do not need to install MySQL. Does anybody need to
 pay something? Who? (Remember that my Web Server just run PHP and MySQL,
 wich are free. My site (wich is paid) uses the services provided by the
 web-server)

In this case there is not distribution so no fee is needed. We would
like to be paid in this case also but there is legal requirement for a
license if you do not distribute. 

But we would like every one who uses MySQL for commercial services to
pay for support!

 In this case, does my client, the web-server or I need to pay a license to
 MySQL AB?

No, as explained above. 

The GPL kicks in when you *distribute* and then you can either
distribute all (including your) source code or buy a commercial license
from us.

 Please, just wellfounded answers, not personal opinions.

I am the licensing guru for MySQL AB and one of the founders.

/David
MySQL Co-Founder

 Thanks
 
 
 At 15:51 30/11/2002 +0100, you wrote:
 Hello.
 
 I do not intent to follow-up on the issue, as you are either trolling
 or clueless (and not willing to inform yourself) or both.
 
 On Sat 2002-11-30 at 08:30:52 -0500, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
   Seems like all against I see are coming from MySQL team.
 
 But I want to prevent a misconception: I am in no way affiliated to
 MySQL AB than being an user of their software.
 
 Bye,
 
  Benjamin.
 
 
 Darney Lampert
 Sky Informática Ltda 


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Re: [OT] LEGAL information about MySQL.

[Pae Choi]

Look!

I already unsubscribed this. Do you understand what that mean?
I have no interest to dealing with MySQL and have no time for
this.

You must understand that this thread was started from someone
who were interested to sell his/her product that utilize MySQL. And
I was trying to help both sides. One who is creating an innovative
products as well as MySQL. Do you know how both sides get benefits?
Actually, MySQL should appreciate them. Those folks actually help
your business by moving your products.

Also, you MUST understand that if one product provides the
persistence service that only comes with JDBC/JDO/or similar
functionality. So the product can adopt any back-end DBMS, for
example, and leaving the choice of DBMS to thier customers. They
will more than likely go with the *reliable* DBMS.

In case the customers somehow select MySQL for thier DBMS
solution, to wit, if they download and use it. You are out of luck!
1) The Product innovation group did not distributed; Their customers
download it.
2) In their own license, they can declare own rights.

Still want to chase them, it's your choice(I don't know what you
are going to after for, but it will be your choice as well to spend
the time and your own expenses.)

Last, by no means least, put me out of this. I am no longer interesting
to waste my time with MySQL. I already seen enough and got sense of
attitudes from MySQL.


Pae

P.S.: If your intention was for commercializtion from the beginning,
you should started with .com, not .org -- I can see your
sly marketing strategy.



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RE: [OT] LEGAL information about MySQL.

[Rick Cronan]

 -Original Message-
 From: David Axmark [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]

 In this case there is not distribution so no fee is needed. We would
 like to be paid in this case also but there is legal requirement for a
 license if you do not distribute.

Missing 'no'?

- rick cronan



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Re: [OT] LEGAL information about MySQL.

[Mark]

- Original Message -
From: David Axmark [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Darney Lampert [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Cc: mysql [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, December 05, 2002 3:55 AM
Subject: Re: [OT] LEGAL information about MySQL.



 I am the licensing guru for MySQL AB and one of the
 founders.


With regard to MySQL software falling under the GPL licence, I was too
focussed on studying the GPL licence itself, and missed this very clear
section of the MySQL AB licence:

As long as you never distribute (internally or externally) the MySQL
Software in any way, you are free to use it for powering your application,
irrespective of whether your application is under GPL or other OSI approved
license or not.

In all fairness to MySQL AB, that wording is clear enough, I would say. :)
My eye also caught the following blurb:

We also believe that if you have strong reasons NOT to go GPL, you also
have the monetary means to purchase commercial licences.

Conversely, I would say:

I also believe that if you have strong reasons NOT to go COMMERCIAL, you
also do not have the monetary means to purchase commercial licences.

In other words: relax. :) Worried people who are asking questions here to
the effect of their program using MySQL requires a commercial licence, are
likely people who cannot afford a commercial licence anyway.

- Mark


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Re: LEGAL information about MySQL.

[Michael T. Babcock]

On Thu, Dec 05, 2002 at 03:14:14AM +0100, David Axmark wrote:
  Maybe MySQL.com is concern about own profit so does other
  commercial vendors. They all use public-domain code in some
  degree.

I know this thread has been trollish at times, and many have
probably kill-filed it, but I'd like to take this moment to scream:
GPL'd code is NOT public domain!

Thank-you for your attention :)

  I do encourge everyone same as GPL to sell your own products
  without concerning about license violation. Just put the copy of
  GPL license, as well as source and binary combo. in the
  corresponding package.

You may NOT distribute the package unless you're careful about
legalities; that's a Copyright issue.  I would recommend, GPL or
no GPL, that you abide by MySQL AB's wishes as well, as they don't
want to get tied up in court proving that you've violated their
rights (as with a certain GEMINI product).

  be a necesssary portion when you distribute your own products
  and provide the URL where they can download the source.) And
  you can have your own license in your products.
 
 You are wrong. I have talked with the people who wrote the GPL many
 times and if you did the above they (or us if it where MySQL you
 mistreated) will send you some legal letters.

I think, however, that you're misinterpreting each other a little.
Reading the section on distribution, and considering how RedHat et. al.
deal with this, I'd say you're free to distribute the packages as long
as they're _exactly_ as you got them from MySQL AB and you do not in
any way _link_ against those packages (hmm, libmysql goes out the door
there).  If you manage to connect to MySQL without using any MySQL AB
code, then the GPL doesn't apply to your product (IMHO, IANAL).

However, using the libmysql library and/or libmysql headers may (and should)
mean use under the definition of the GPL's using clauses.

 You must provide the source for the combined work when you distribute
 under the GPL. But you can sell the MySQL code for money under the GPL

You must distribute the combined product under the GPL or something with
equal limitations (read the GPL again).  If you want to do something else,
find a copy of libmysql under the LGPL and you get a few extra rights ...

 without our approval. But you may not use our trademark. And you can
 not stop the customer giving it all away for free (since you had to
 give him/her source code).

In fact, the customer would be able to assume that the entire package was
under the GPL, since that's the only possible legal way they could have
received what you produced (but it probably wouldn't stand in court).

I'd recommend that if you develop commercial software with MySQL you call
up MySQL AB's license people and talk about it.

 I have been in court once discussing this issue and I would like to
 stay out of those kind of issues for the rest of my life.

Being in court at all sucks.

  You have all the rights for your own products same as the GPL
  packages do for their own.

As long as you don't use MySQL in any way, yes.  If you do use it,
violating Copyright law, then you are voluntarily choosing to be bound
by the GPL (or breaking the law) which requires your code to also be
as 'free' as MySQL's is.

www.fsf.org is a good place to look, btw :)

PS, I'd appreciate any criticism of my views from the MySQL or FSF types
in the crowd.
-- 
Michael T. Babcock
CTO, FibreSpeed Ltd. (Hosting, Security, Consultation, Database, etc)
http://www.fibrespeed.net/~mbabcock/

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Re: [OT] LEGAL information about MySQL.

[David Axmark]

On Thu, 2002-12-05 at 03:23, Pae Choi wrote:
 Look!
 
 I already unsubscribed this. Do you understand what that mean?
 I have no interest to dealing with MySQL and have no time for
 this.
 
 You must understand that this thread was started from someone
 who were interested to sell his/her product that utilize MySQL. And
 I was trying to help both sides. One who is creating an innovative
 products as well as MySQL. Do you know how both sides get benefits?
 Actually, MySQL should appreciate them. Those folks actually help
 your business by moving your products.
 
 Also, you MUST understand that if one product provides the
 persistence service that only comes with JDBC/JDO/or similar
 functionality. So the product can adopt any back-end DBMS, for
 example, and leaving the choice of DBMS to thier customers. They
 will more than likely go with the *reliable* DBMS.
 
 In case the customers somehow select MySQL for thier DBMS
 solution, to wit, if they download and use it. You are out of luck!
 1) The Product innovation group did not distributed; Their customers
 download it.
 2) In their own license, they can declare own rights.
 
 Still want to chase them, it's your choice(I don't know what you
 are going to after for, but it will be your choice as well to spend
 the time and your own expenses.)
 
 Last, by no means least, put me out of this. I am no longer interesting
 to waste my time with MySQL. I already seen enough and got sense of
 attitudes from MySQL.
 
 
 Pae
 
 P.S.: If your intention was for commercializtion from the beginning,
 you should started with .com, not .org -- I can see your
 sly marketing strategy.

FYI: We did start with mysql.com. We did not get mysql.org until last
year.

/David


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Re: LEGAL information about MySQL.

[Michael T. Babcock]

On Mon, Dec 02, 2002 at 08:52:53PM +0100, Mark wrote:
 Is this true? If so, that is a relief. But does the licence also not talk
 about using MySQL? Is connecting to MySQL not the same as using it?
 
First off, the GPL is very clear that it is not a mandatory license.  Your
options are to either use the software to the extent of the law without a
license at all, or to use the software within the bounds set by the GPL.
MySQL's additional terms may state otherwise w.r.t. MySQL itself, but I do
not believe that they do.

However, if you wish to do anything with the software that would be otherwise
illegal (because of Copyright law), the GPL's conditions on doing so are
/sacre-saint/.  The issue of 'using' the software doesn't even _exist_ as far
as the GPL is concerned.  The 'use' issue is of the source, or the object
code as far as linking goes.  Using the 4.x MySQL library makes this more
relevant for many projects.

Distribution of the software, modified or not, is not permitted by Copyright
so you must either abide by the GPL or let someone else do it.

Again, consult a lawyer.
-- 
Michael T. Babcock
CTO, FibreSpeed Ltd. (Hosting, Security, Consultation, Database, etc)
http://www.fibrespeed.net/~mbabcock/

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Re: [OT] LEGAL information about MySQL.

[Darney Lampert]

Sorry continue this subject ... I´m the author original question, LEGAL 
information about MySQL.
But I Think that my question is simple and the other answers do not make 
sense to me.
I never said that I change original MySQL source code, and I just want know 
if I can use MySQL database on
my comercial application without pay for it. My application ONLY access MySQL.

I develop a program with Delphi with access MySQL database. I'll sell my
program, and ONLY give a copy of MySQL to the users, or indicate the place
to download to them.

Does my client need to pay a license to MySQL AB?

Other case:
I develop a web-site with PHP wich access MySQL database to a client who
paid for it. The users do not need to install MySQL. Does anybody need to
pay something? Who? (Remember that my Web Server just run PHP and MySQL,
wich are free. My site (wich is paid) uses the services provided by the
web-server)

In this case, does my client, the web-server or I need to pay a license to
MySQL AB?

Please, just wellfounded answers, not personal opinions.

Thanks


At 15:51 30/11/2002 +0100, you wrote:
Hello.

I do not intent to follow-up on the issue, as you are either trolling
or clueless (and not willing to inform yourself) or both.

On Sat 2002-11-30 at 08:30:52 -0500, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Seems like all against I see are coming from MySQL team.

But I want to prevent a misconception: I am in no way affiliated to
MySQL AB than being an user of their software.

Bye,

Benjamin.



Darney Lampert
Sky Informática Ltda 


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RE: [OT] LEGAL information about MySQL.

[David Brodbeck]

 -Original Message-
 From: Pae Choi [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]

 Seems like all against I see are coming from MySQL team.
 I know MySQL is stealing a lot of code from the public
 domain, inclduing the SSL part. How funny!

By definition you can't steal anything from the public domain.  It's free
for the taking!

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Re: LEGAL information about MySQL.

[Benjamin Pflugmann]

Hello.

On Mon 2002-12-02 at 11:45:00 -0200, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
[...]
 In this case, does my client, the web-server or I need to pay a license to
 MySQL AB?
 
 Please, just wellfounded answers, not personal opinions.

For the authorative answer, just contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Regards,

Benjamin.

-- 
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

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Re: LEGAL information about MySQL.

[Mark]

- Original Message -
From: Michael T. Babcock [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Monday, December 02, 2002 6:54 PM
Subject: Re: LEGAL information about MySQL.


 2) Connecting to MySQL is _not_ the same as linking against it or
modifying it in some way. Storing data and fetching data using
MySQL connections is completely unrestricted by the GPL
(IANAL, but this is obvious).


Is this true? If so, that is a relief. But does the licence also not talk
about using MySQL? Is connecting to MySQL not the same as using it?

I know this thread became a bit trollish along the line, but I am genuinely
interested in knowing where I stand when a program of mine uses MySQL
connections.

- Mark


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Re: LEGAL information about MySQL.

[Pae Choi]

I know the GPL and seen many commercial software using
the software and/or tool under GPL.

Btw, which paragraph are you referring to?


Pae


 -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
 Hash: SHA1

 Pae Choi wrote:
  If your software utilize the software under GPL license, you can
  simply add those GPL licenses as well as make a note that you
  are only selling, i.e. the price is only for your own software, your
  own software, you should be fine.

 Uh, no. See http://www.gnu.org/licenses/gpl.html if you're not sure what
 you're agreeing to when using GPL software.

  Just to pretect your own benefit, you can add a statment saying
  that all rights of GPL license reserved by them. And those are
  provided just for your convenience.

 If you are not sure exactly how the GPL works, and you have read the
 license terms that I've referenced above, and still want to distribute
 your software that uses and/or links to software licensed under the GPL,
 I suggest you first seek a lawyer's opinion, and have it explained to
 you in non-legalese.

 In basic terms, the GPL says if you include GPL software via use and-or
 linking in your software, you must distribute _your_ software under GPL
 terms.

 What you advocate is the same as saying that you if stick a pirated copy
 of windows in with your software, but disclaim in your documentation
 that you're only paying for your software, not the copy of windows that
 is not following Microsoft's licensing terms.

 -Mark

 - --
 For technical support contracts, visit https://order.mysql.com/?ref=mmma

  __  ___ ___   __
 /  |/  /_ __/ __/ __ \/ /  Mark Matthews [EMAIL PROTECTED]
/ /|_/ / // /\ \/ /_/ / /__ MySQL AB, Full-Time Developer - JDBC/Java
   /_/  /_/\_, /___/\___\_\___/ Flossmoor (Chicago), IL USA
  ___/ www.mysql.com
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 Version: GnuPG v1.1.90 (MingW32)
 Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org

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Re: LEGAL information about MySQL.

[Pae Choi]

mysql, sql, query


 What you advocate is the same as saying that you if stick a pirated copy
 of windows in with your software, but disclaim in your documentation
 that you're only paying for your software, not the copy of windows that
 is not following Microsoft's licensing terms.


Your example is totally out of case. GPL says that it can freely distribute
as long as the copyright is included.

Our General Public Licenses are designed to make sure that you have the
 freedom to distribute copies of free software (and charge for this service
if you wish


We protect your rights with two steps: (1) copyright the software, and
(2) offer you this license which gives you legal permission to copy,
distribute
and/or modify the software.


Pae








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Re: LEGAL information about MySQL.

[Mark]

- Original Message -
From: Mark Matthews [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Pae Choi [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Cc: Tonu Samuel [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Darney Lampert
[EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Saturday, November 30, 2002 5:30 AM
Subject: Re: LEGAL information about MySQL.


 If you are not sure exactly how the GPL works, and you have read
 the license terms that I've referenced above, and still want to
 distribute your software that uses and/or links to software licensed
 under the GPL, I suggest you first seek a lawyer's opinion, and have
 it explained to you in non-legalese.

Are you suggesting that every program that uses MySQL has to be GPL?? I
doubt that. If so, you are effectively saying, for instance, that no program
written in Perl could ever be non-GPL (as all Perl scripts use/link to GPL
Perl). And this is, of course, not the case. There are many commercial
products out there, like Perl debuggers, for example, that are definitely
NOT licenced GPL, yet still use/link to Perl.

I read the MySQL Licensing Policy, and, to me, it said: If your application
is NOT licensed under GPL or compatible OSI license approved by MySQL AB and
you intend to distribute MySQL software (be that internally or externally),
you must first obtain a commercial license to the MySQL software in
question.

The licence talks about DISTRIBUTING the MySQL software itself; or, as it
says, More specifically: a) If you include the MySQL server in your non
Open Source application, you need a commercial licence for the MySQL server,
b) If you include one of the MySQL drivers in your non Open Source
application (so that your application can run with MySQL), you need a
commercial licence for the driver(s) in question. The MySQL drivers
currently include an ODBC driver, a JDBC driver and the C language library.

Except, of course, that most people do NOT distribute MySQL software, or
drivers with their own programs. Besides, if I write a program in Perl,
which
uses MySQL, it is still Perl that distributes drivers and such. My OWN
program does no such thing. My program just says: Use DBI;.

- Mark


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Re: [OT] LEGAL information about MySQL.

[Benjamin Pflugmann]

Hello.

This is quickly heading towards off-topic. If you are interested in a
discussion of what the GPL means, a different forum would be more
adequate, I think.

I do not necessarily completely agree with MySQL AB's interpretation
of the GPL, but since it's their product, I am fine with it.

But what you wrote is simply wrong.

On Fri 2002-11-29 at 19:28:09 -0500, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 If your software utilize the software under GPL license, you can
 simply add those GPL licenses as well as make a note that you
 are only selling, i.e. the price is only for your own software, your
 own software, you should be fine.

The GPL never says anything about distributing a copy for free. I does
not matter if you want $100.000 per copy. It only says that you also
have to provide the source code (and that, if you offer to get the
source seperately, you may not charge more than your transfer costs
for the source - section 3.b).

On Sat 2002-11-30 at 03:18:58 -0500, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
[...]
   Just to pretect your own benefit, you can add a statment saying that
   all rights of GPL license reserved by them. And those are provided
   just for your convenience.
   
  What you advocate is the same as saying that you if stick a pirated copy
  of windows in with your software, but disclaim in your documentation
  that you're only paying for your software, not the copy of windows that
  is not following Microsoft's licensing terms.
 
 Your example is totally out of case.

No. You said implicitly, that you can disregard the GPL by simply
pointing out you only included the software for convenience. With the
GPL, such a notice makes no sense. Either you comply with it, in which
case you need no notice, or you do not, in which case you may not
distribute the program. Such a notice does not change anything. That
is what Mark tried to point out.

 GPL says that it can freely distribute as long as the copyright is
 included.

That is the BSD license.

The GPL indeed requires to leave the copyright notice intact, too
(section 1), but also requires, that you either distribute a
_verbatim_ copy (section 1) or distribute any changes or additions
with the exception of mere aggregation (section 2). If a program uses
MySQL in any way, you cannot claim mere aggregation, IMHO.

Bye,

Benjamin.


-- 
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Re: [OT] LEGAL information about MySQL.

[Pae Choi]

Didn't you the previous posting that contains two paragraphs
from GPL?

And if someone wants to sell the software that use the MySQL,
then simply let them downlaod it. Then you will be out of this
crap.

Also, PostgreSQL will be your alternative option as well.


Pae

P.S.: There are many commercial software using and distributing
the software/packages under GPL, why don't you sue them then.
Huh, you will not getting anything other than your own expenses.



 Hello.

 This is quickly heading towards off-topic. If you are interested in a
 discussion of what the GPL means, a different forum would be more
 adequate, I think.

 I do not necessarily completely agree with MySQL AB's interpretation
 of the GPL, but since it's their product, I am fine with it.

 But what you wrote is simply wrong.

 On Fri 2002-11-29 at 19:28:09 -0500, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  If your software utilize the software under GPL license, you can
  simply add those GPL licenses as well as make a note that you
  are only selling, i.e. the price is only for your own software, your
  own software, you should be fine.

 The GPL never says anything about distributing a copy for free. I does
 not matter if you want $100.000 per copy. It only says that you also
 have to provide the source code (and that, if you offer to get the
 source seperately, you may not charge more than your transfer costs
 for the source - section 3.b).

 On Sat 2002-11-30 at 03:18:58 -0500, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 [...]
Just to pretect your own benefit, you can add a statment saying that
all rights of GPL license reserved by them. And those are provided
just for your convenience.
   
   What you advocate is the same as saying that you if stick a pirated
copy
   of windows in with your software, but disclaim in your documentation
   that you're only paying for your software, not the copy of windows
that
   is not following Microsoft's licensing terms.
 
  Your example is totally out of case.

 No. You said implicitly, that you can disregard the GPL by simply
 pointing out you only included the software for convenience. With the
 GPL, such a notice makes no sense. Either you comply with it, in which
 case you need no notice, or you do not, in which case you may not
 distribute the program. Such a notice does not change anything. That
 is what Mark tried to point out.

  GPL says that it can freely distribute as long as the copyright is
  included.

 That is the BSD license.

 The GPL indeed requires to leave the copyright notice intact, too
 (section 1), but also requires, that you either distribute a
 _verbatim_ copy (section 1) or distribute any changes or additions
 with the exception of mere aggregation (section 2). If a program uses
 MySQL in any way, you cannot claim mere aggregation, IMHO.

 Bye,

 Benjamin.


 --
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]


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Re: LEGAL information about MySQL.

[Mark Matthews]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

Pae Choi wrote:

mysql, sql, query



What you advocate is the same as saying that you if stick a pirated copy
of windows in with your software, but disclaim in your documentation
that you're only paying for your software, not the copy of windows that
is not following Microsoft's licensing terms.




Your example is totally out of case. GPL says that it can freely distribute
as long as the copyright is included.


I'm referring to term #2. If your software is 'forming a work based on 
the Program', then your software falls under the GPL.

Our General Public Licenses are designed to make sure that you have the
 freedom to distribute copies of free software (and charge for this service
if you wish


Yes, if you're doing something like RedHat, where you bundle a bunch of 
GPL software together, that's okay.

However if you create some product that is built upon GPL software, but 
it is not GPL itself, then you most likely need to release it under GPL.


We protect your rights with two steps: (1) copyright the software, and
(2) offer you this license which gives you legal permission to copy,
distribute
and/or modify the software.


Under the terms of the license. You can't take these paragraphs out of 
context.

	-Mark

- -- 
For technical support contracts, visit https://order.mysql.com/?ref=mmma

__  ___ ___   __
   /  |/  /_ __/ __/ __ \/ /  Mark Matthews [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  / /|_/ / // /\ \/ /_/ / /__ MySQL AB, Full-Time Developer - JDBC/Java
 /_/  /_/\_, /___/\___\_\___/ Flossmoor (Chicago), IL USA
___/ www.mysql.com
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Re: [OT] LEGAL information about MySQL.

[Tonu Samuel]

All who haven't read GPL FAQ, go and read it:
http://www.fsf.org/licenses/gpl-faq.html

Current discussion is covered beginning from:

http://www.fsf.org/licenses/gpl-faq.html#ModifiedJustBinary

http://www.fsf.org/philosophy/free-sw.html

Also, discussion here reminded me MySQL vs Progress case when subsidiary
of Progress named NuSphere violated MySQL AB rights in similar way as
defended now by some persons. It is very similar to current discussion,
so I think it is correct to include Eben Moglen's point of view here:

http://www.gnu.org/press/mysql-affidavit.html

  Tonu 


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Re: LEGAL information about MySQL.

[Pae Choi]

I do not know about MySQL marketing strategies. But as far as
GPL goes, it even encourge to sell.


Does the GPL allow me to sell copies of the program for money?
Yes, the GPL allows everyone to do this. The [1]right to sell copies is part
of the definition of free software. Except in one special situation, there
is no limit on what price you can charge. (The one exception is the required
written offer to provide source code that must accompany binary-only
release.)

[1] http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/selling.html


Maybe MySQL.com is concern about own profit so does other
commercial vendors. They all use public-domain code in some
degree.

I do encourge everyone same as GPL to sell your own products
without concerning about license violation. Just put the copy of
GPL license, as well as source and binary combo. in the
corresponding package. (I personally think that the binary will
be a necesssary portion when you distribute your own products
and provide the URL where they can download the source.) And
you can have your own license in your products.

You have all the rights for your own products same as the GPL
packages do for their own.


Pae



 -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
 Hash: SHA1

 Pae Choi wrote:
  mysql, sql, query
 
 
 What you advocate is the same as saying that you if stick a pirated copy
 of windows in with your software, but disclaim in your documentation
 that you're only paying for your software, not the copy of windows that
 is not following Microsoft's licensing terms.
 
 
 
  Your example is totally out of case. GPL says that it can freely
distribute
  as long as the copyright is included.

 I'm referring to term #2. If your software is 'forming a work based on
 the Program', then your software falls under the GPL.

  Our General Public Licenses are designed to make sure that you have the
   freedom to distribute copies of free software (and charge for this
service
  if you wish

 Yes, if you're doing something like RedHat, where you bundle a bunch of
 GPL software together, that's okay.

 However if you create some product that is built upon GPL software, but
 it is not GPL itself, then you most likely need to release it under GPL.

 
  We protect your rights with two steps: (1) copyright the software, and
  (2) offer you this license which gives you legal permission to copy,
  distribute
  and/or modify the software.

 Under the terms of the license. You can't take these paragraphs out of
 context.

 -Mark

 - --
 For technical support contracts, visit https://order.mysql.com/?ref=mmma

  __  ___ ___   __
 /  |/  /_ __/ __/ __ \/ /  Mark Matthews [EMAIL PROTECTED]
/ /|_/ / // /\ \/ /_/ / /__ MySQL AB, Full-Time Developer - JDBC/Java
   /_/  /_/\_, /___/\___\_\___/ Flossmoor (Chicago), IL USA
  ___/ www.mysql.com
 -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
 Version: GnuPG v1.1.90 (MingW32)
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 085lJkmvwyqSZ0wAfjHHtlA=
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Re: [OT] LEGAL information about MySQL.

[Pae Choi]

If MySQL plays so dirty, go with PostgreSQL. It's been known
to be better and more acceptable in all platforms. Ex, they
have triggers, etc that MySQL does not have.


Pae

- Original Message -
From: Tonu Samuel [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Saturday, November 30, 2002 7:33 AM
Subject: Re: [OT] LEGAL information about MySQL.


 All who haven't read GPL FAQ, go and read it:
 http://www.fsf.org/licenses/gpl-faq.html

 Current discussion is covered beginning from:

 http://www.fsf.org/licenses/gpl-faq.html#ModifiedJustBinary

 http://www.fsf.org/philosophy/free-sw.html

 Also, discussion here reminded me MySQL vs Progress case when subsidiary
 of Progress named NuSphere violated MySQL AB rights in similar way as
 defended now by some persons. It is very similar to current discussion,
 so I think it is correct to include Eben Moglen's point of view here:

 http://www.gnu.org/press/mysql-affidavit.html

   Tonu


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Re: [OT] LEGAL information about MySQL.

[Pae Choi]

One final thouhgt for the people who wish to sell your
own products.

You can distribute your own products, but let your customers
download the GPL packages. In that way, you are not
distributing that.

And you can include your license saying that something
like any utilziation of third-party packages will be solely
your(i.e., your customers) responsibilities.

In that way, you do not have to concern about legal
obligations while at the same time you can freely sell
your own products.


Pae

P.S.: Just for MySQL, you should appreciate those people
who make their products utilizing MySQL. That will actually
help your business by helping MySQL move more.




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Re: [OT] LEGAL information about MySQL.

[Tonu Samuel]

On Sat, 2002-11-30 at 14:46, Pae Choi wrote:
 If MySQL plays so dirty, go with PostgreSQL. It's been known
 to be better and more acceptable in all platforms. Ex, they
 have triggers, etc that MySQL does not have.

FUD. I pointed to information of FSF and people not related to MySQL.
Seems like you name FSF understanding about GPL dirty. I can't agree
with you.

   Tõnu


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Re: [OT] LEGAL information about MySQL.

[Pae Choi]

No. You are complete WRONG. I am encouraging people
who trying to sell their own products same as GPL. So
I am in the same line.

In addition, I am not expecting anyone has to agree with
me. That includes you as well.

And do not accuse me in such comment. You are starting
the flame. This is a warning!


Pae




- Original Message -
From: Tonu Samuel [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Saturday, November 30, 2002 7:59 AM
Subject: Re: [OT] LEGAL information about MySQL.


On Sat, 2002-11-30 at 14:46, Pae Choi wrote:
 If MySQL plays so dirty, go with PostgreSQL. It's been known
 to be better and more acceptable in all platforms. Ex, they
 have triggers, etc that MySQL does not have.

FUD. I pointed to information of FSF and people not related to MySQL.
Seems like you name FSF understanding about GPL dirty. I can't agree
with you.

   Tõnu


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Re: [OT] LEGAL information about MySQL.

[Benjamin Pflugmann]

Hi.

On Sat 2002-11-30 at 06:43:11 -0500, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Didn't you the previous posting that contains two paragraphs
 from GPL?

I saw these paragraphs. How do they relate to anything of this
discussion? They are taken out of context from the Preamble of the
license and only state some general intention. If you want to make
a point, please refer to the legal binding part.

 And if someone wants to sell the software that use the MySQL,
 then simply let them downlaod it. Then you will be out of this
 crap.

You obviously understand the GPL differently than the FSF does (see
the GPL FAQ: http://www.gnu.org/licenses/gpl-faq.html). The MySQL list
is not the appropriate forum to discuss this.

 Also, PostgreSQL will be your alternative option as well.

PostgreSQL is an interesting database, but the question was whether
software using MySQL must be distributed under GPL.

 P.S.: There are many commercial software using and distributing
 the software/packages under GPL, 

You keep repeating that, but this proves nothing. First, doing
something does not make it right. Second, there are quite some
possibilities for commercial software to comply with GPL. If you want
to make a point relevant to this list, cite a specific commercial
software package which is using a GPL product in a similar situation
as using MySQL would mean.

 why don't you sue them then.

Because I do not own the copyright on this software? Only the
copyright holder can sue. 


Well, as I said last time, the question is what MySQL AB thinks is
legally and it is up to them to sue if they consider it appropriate.
And it is ill-advised to suggest people to disregard what MySQL AB
thinks the GPL means.


I seriously wonder if you are just trolling.

Regards,

Benjamin.

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Re: [OT] LEGAL information about MySQL.

[Pae Choi]

Seems like all against I see are coming from MySQL team.
I know MySQL is stealing a lot of code from the public
domain, inclduing the SSL part. How funny!

I already mentioned in the previous message. I am only
encouraging the people to create more innovative works,
and Open Source based product team, MySQL, is actually
discouraging them. How beautiful!

Once again, all product inventors, use your own license
to pretoect your own rights. And let your customers
download any troublesome packages if necessary.


Pae


- Original Message - 
From: Benjamin Pflugmann [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Pae Choi [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Saturday, November 30, 2002 8:18 AM
Subject: Re: [OT] LEGAL information about MySQL.


 Hi.
 
 On Sat 2002-11-30 at 06:43:11 -0500, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  Didn't you the previous posting that contains two paragraphs
  from GPL?
 
 I saw these paragraphs. How do they relate to anything of this
 discussion? They are taken out of context from the Preamble of the
 license and only state some general intention. If you want to make
 a point, please refer to the legal binding part.
 
  And if someone wants to sell the software that use the MySQL,
  then simply let them downlaod it. Then you will be out of this
  crap.
 
 You obviously understand the GPL differently than the FSF does (see
 the GPL FAQ: http://www.gnu.org/licenses/gpl-faq.html). The MySQL list
 is not the appropriate forum to discuss this.
 
  Also, PostgreSQL will be your alternative option as well.
 
 PostgreSQL is an interesting database, but the question was whether
 software using MySQL must be distributed under GPL.
 
  P.S.: There are many commercial software using and distributing
  the software/packages under GPL, 
 
 You keep repeating that, but this proves nothing. First, doing
 something does not make it right. Second, there are quite some
 possibilities for commercial software to comply with GPL. If you want
 to make a point relevant to this list, cite a specific commercial
 software package which is using a GPL product in a similar situation
 as using MySQL would mean.
 
  why don't you sue them then.
 
 Because I do not own the copyright on this software? Only the
 copyright holder can sue. 
 
 
 Well, as I said last time, the question is what MySQL AB thinks is
 legally and it is up to them to sue if they consider it appropriate.
 And it is ill-advised to suggest people to disregard what MySQL AB
 thinks the GPL means.
 
 
 I seriously wonder if you are just trolling.
 
 Regards,
 
 Benjamin.
 
 -- 
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]


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Re: [OT] LEGAL information about MySQL.

[Benjamin Pflugmann]

Hello.

I do not intent to follow-up on the issue, as you are either trolling
or clueless (and not willing to inform yourself) or both.

On Sat 2002-11-30 at 08:30:52 -0500, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Seems like all against I see are coming from MySQL team.

But I want to prevent a misconception: I am in no way affiliated to
MySQL AB than being an user of their software.

Bye,

Benjamin.


 I know MySQL is stealing a lot of code from the public
 domain, inclduing the SSL part. How funny!
 
 I already mentioned in the previous message. I am only
 encouraging the people to create more innovative works,
 and Open Source based product team, MySQL, is actually
 discouraging them. How beautiful!
[...]

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LEGAL information about MySQL.

[Darney Lampert]

Hi, I'm beginner in maillist and my english is limited..

I want know about LEGAL MySQL software information.
On www.mysql.com page, in download section I read that:

You need to purchase commercial non-GPL MySQL licenses:

If you distribute MySQL Software with your non open source software,
If you want warranty from MySQL AB for the MySQL software,
If you want to support MySQL development.

distribute MySQL Software with means that my application (non open 
source) can use
mysql if I not distribute MySQL with my application?

Thanks.

Darney


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Re: LEGAL information about MySQL.

[Tonu Samuel]

On Fri, 2002-11-29 at 14:59, Darney Lampert wrote:
 
 Hi, I'm beginner in maillist and my english is limited..
 
 I want know about LEGAL MySQL software information.
 On www.mysql.com page, in download section I read that:
 
 You need to purchase commercial non-GPL MySQL licenses:
 
 If you distribute MySQL Software with your non open source software,
 If you want warranty from MySQL AB for the MySQL software,
 If you want to support MySQL development.
 
 distribute MySQL Software with means that my application (non open 
 source) can use
 mysql if I not distribute MySQL with my application?
 

In very brief:

GPL licence protects original author of software from competing against
own software. For example if somebody integrates MySQL into their
software and starts to sell it, this is not allowed because then MySQL
authors have do not have access to parts added to MySQL.
You can integrate non-GPL software with GPL one only if:

You never distribute it
or
You provide source code under GPL back to community.

On all other cases you do not have this right under GPL licence. If you
still want to integrate GPL and non-GPL software you need ask authors
permission to use software under different conditions. In MySQL this
means you have to pay for it and this seems fair to me. 

  Tonu



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Re: LEGAL information about MySQL.

[Pae Choi]

If your software utilize the software under GPL license, you can
simply add those GPL licenses as well as make a note that you
are only selling, i.e. the price is only for your own software, your
own software, you should be fine.

Just to pretect your own benefit, you can add a statment saying
that all rights of GPL license reserved by them. And those are
provided just for your convenience.


Pae



 On Fri, 2002-11-29 at 14:59, Darney Lampert wrote:
 
  Hi, I'm beginner in maillist and my english is limited..
  
  I want know about LEGAL MySQL software information.
  On www.mysql.com page, in download section I read that:
  
  You need to purchase commercial non-GPL MySQL licenses:
  
  If you distribute MySQL Software with your non open source software,
  If you want warranty from MySQL AB for the MySQL software,
  If you want to support MySQL development.
  
  distribute MySQL Software with means that my application (non open
  source) can use
  mysql if I not distribute MySQL with my application?
  

 In very brief:

 GPL licence protects original author of software from competing against
 own software. For example if somebody integrates MySQL into their
 software and starts to sell it, this is not allowed because then MySQL
 authors have do not have access to parts added to MySQL.
 You can integrate non-GPL software with GPL one only if:

 You never distribute it
 or
 You provide source code under GPL back to community.

 On all other cases you do not have this right under GPL licence. If you
 still want to integrate GPL and non-GPL software you need ask authors
 permission to use software under different conditions. In MySQL this
 means you have to pay for it and this seems fair to me.

   Tonu



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Re: LEGAL information about MySQL.

[Mark Matthews]

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Hash: SHA1

Pae Choi wrote:

If your software utilize the software under GPL license, you can
simply add those GPL licenses as well as make a note that you
are only selling, i.e. the price is only for your own software, your
own software, you should be fine.


Uh, no. See http://www.gnu.org/licenses/gpl.html if you're not sure what 
you're agreeing to when using GPL software.

Just to pretect your own benefit, you can add a statment saying
that all rights of GPL license reserved by them. And those are
provided just for your convenience.


If you are not sure exactly how the GPL works, and you have read the 
license terms that I've referenced above, and still want to distribute 
your software that uses and/or links to software licensed under the GPL, 
I suggest you first seek a lawyer's opinion, and have it explained to 
you in non-legalese.

In basic terms, the GPL says if you include GPL software via use and-or 
linking in your software, you must distribute _your_ software under GPL 
terms.

What you advocate is the same as saying that you if stick a pirated copy 
of windows in with your software, but disclaim in your documentation 
that you're only paying for your software, not the copy of windows that 
is not following Microsoft's licensing terms.

	-Mark

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__  ___ ___   __
   /  |/  /_ __/ __/ __ \/ /  Mark Matthews [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  / /|_/ / // /\ \/ /_/ / /__ MySQL AB, Full-Time Developer - JDBC/Java
 /_/  /_/\_, /___/\___\_\___/ Flossmoor (Chicago), IL USA
___/ www.mysql.com
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