Re: [newbie] MS: We know we suck, and we don't really care.
Lanman wrote: Frankie; Heads Up! frankieh wrote: Lanman wrote: FrankieH; Don't forget that Linux is gaining a lot of popularity and momentum. That alone, will push a lot of software companies to seriously consider coming out with re-worked versions of their apps, and many are already doing exactly that. Yes, I think the fact that Macromedia are looking into it is a big win. They won't be the last. In many cases, well-estasblished apps written for Linux years ago have been improving by leaps and bounds, and as people start to migrate over to Linux, they'll start depending on those apps, instead of seeking commercial or proprietary ones. no arguements there. One last thing here. One of Microsoft's long term goals is to migrate most of their apps to web-based systems which will be sold as subscription services - ie; Microsoft Office. That's one of their prime reasons for coming up with dotNet. I totally disagree with this.. it may have once been the goal, before linux got where it is now. but it aint the goal anymore.. .net and C# were created to stop Java becoming the defacto enterprise development platform, something that would have taken it out of M$'s hands once they found out they couldn't make their own version of Java without having to pay their profits to Sun.. They can't afford to make Office a by the web subscription service that will run on any platfrom.. because that will totally remove the need for windows, and windows is still a huge M$ cash cow. Not necessarily. Microsoft now needs to put some effort into protecting their cash cows, and Windows isn't one anymore. Notice that they either spout a lot of releases or they take a long time to release a newer version. That's because they either view a relase as a Hit or a Miss According to their last statement, Office and windows still make up the majority of the money they are reporting to their shareholders. Not only that, but without Windows to push though stuff like .NET or DRM etc, they would just be another voice in the crowd, they wouldn't like that at all.. I stand by what I said, the windows monopoly is worth running at a loss to MS (which it is nowhere near doing.) because of the force they can exert with it.. thats not likely to change anytime soon. Now it's their server versions and licenses, as well as Office that have become the cash cows, except that the server versions are taking a serious hit from Linux and so are their license sales. In order to get past the poor history that Windows has had, they'll be starting to move to a Light Windows install, with a large block of apps only available via the web. Have you read their last shareholders report??? Windows still makes a big lump of M$'s revenue. Not as much as office, but not that far behind either. (Mostly OEM sales of windows to manufacturers.) Much like you pointed out below with Mozilla, you'll still need their browser to access the applications, or a plugin for other browsers, much the same way that Microsoft made Office, Outlook Express and Internet Explorer versions for iMac's. IE for mac has been discontinued.. it is not released anymore, Safari (based on Konquerors KHTML) is the defacto browser for OSX. If that is correct, expect everyone to start paying for it one way or another, assuming that they want those features and applications. many consumers ( hell Most of them ) won;t have a choice but to continue on with whatever M$ spews out of their Willy Wonka factories! Besides, as in the past, many of the big PC producers wull Bundle this stuff into their systems - no matter which OS it runs. By manipulating that cross-platform type of architecture, Microsoft can go a long way towards getting rid of a bunch of anti-trust lawsuits, and by selling or licensing the technology out to it's competitors and partner companies. We are talking about a company that has had a monopoly for 20 years, you think they will remove windows from the equation and just try and push though on .net sales of applications??? Don't you think thats alittle to open and fair for the microsoft we all know??? If you remove the OS, then M$ doesn't have a platform to push though new proprietry technology. They're after a 100% market share, and they also want to cash in on Linux, MacOS, and anything else that gets popular. Yes, but not untill they know they are in the prime position.. and that won't be for a while yet. mark my words, if Office is an online service in Longhorn, it will be a windows only affair. The Mono project is just M$ paying lip service to the open operability thing, if you think it will be allowed to ever run Office on linux machines (without a court case saying it has to.) then you need your head read. Allowed ?? Who needs to allow it? Microsoft needs permission? C'Mon! No dude, you misunderstand,,, what I am saying is that M$ won't allow Mono to every be as good or complete as the windows version, they
Re: [newbie] MS: We know we suck, and we don't really care.
Frankie; I'll get back to you on this later today, Dude! Gotta go watch a flick, shave my legs, change my dre,...Damn! Did I say that out loud? Uh, forget that last part! Talk to you later on this. You're still not out of the woods yet! g Lanman Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com Join the Club : http://www.mandrakeclub.com
Re: [newbie] MS: We know we suck, and we don't really care.
Lanman wrote: Frankie; I'll get back to you on this later today, Dude! Gotta go watch a flick, shave my legs, change my dre,...Damn! Did I say that out loud? Uh, forget that last part! Talk to you later on this. You're still not out of the woods yet! g Lanman yeah yeah... and next year you will be claiming that the comment you made about the dress and shaving your legs was all FUD that you never said and it was all to discredit you... Dude, if Micro$oft release a version of M$ Office to run in .NET framework on a linux box in the next 5 years, and a court didn't force them to do it. I will personally ship you a carton of Australian beer (if thats legal, if not I'll finance a carton so you can buy your own.) -- rgds Franki Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com Join the Club : http://www.mandrakeclub.com
Re: [newbie] MS: We know we suck, and we don't really care.
On Saturday 24 April 2004 12:48 am, Stephen Kuhn wrote: On Sat, 2004-04-24 at 17:31, Margot wrote: Stephen Kuhn wrote: On Sat, 2004-04-24 at 16:27, Aron Smith wrote: then he would screem at them RTFM MF ...that's assuming he know what that means...ahem...(g) read the friendly manual My friend ? Dang - what'd you do - go to church this year or something? Aron's been taking etiquette lessons over on the OT list!!! I thought we weren't allowed to use Aron and etiquette in the same sentence, ay wot? Right that's called taking my name in vain (or vein if you are a Vampire) stephen kuhn - owner == illawarra computer services a kuhn media australia company http://kma.0catch.com -- * This message was composed on a 100% Microsoft free computer * We expressly refuse to utilise Microsoft DRM encoded documents -- Go 'way! You're bothering me! Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com Join the Club : http://www.mandrakeclub.com
Re: [newbie] MS: We know we suck, and we don't really care.
On Sat, 24 Apr 2004 12:46:32 +1000 Stephen Kuhn disseminated the following: MS developers are a bunch of moronic crackheads, but hell, they make me money. I've dealt with this issue before - but in an easier manner: Sold the customer a RedHat server; used the standard imap/sendmail setup; copied particular folders to the imap server therefore deleting them from the .PST (this took DAYS - no joke); upon completion, reset the configuration for LookOut to just use the IMAP server; customer happy, worked faster than it did before. Customer decided to make use of another server (linux, of course) for file/print sharing. Now I only drop in once in a while to check the Windows2000/XP workstations - the server keep on serving... Problem is, their mail is handled by a hosting provider. I tried to sell them on an inhouse mailserver using IMAP, but they are 'concerned' about security and reliability. These are the same people, of course, that when I first walked into the place had the main fileserver's admin pass set to 'PASSWORD'. This one client could keep me busy for years. -- JoeHill Registered Linux user #282046 Homepage: www.orderinchaos.org +++ Gauging the number of Iraqi civilian casualties since the war began is difficult because the U.S.-led occupation force does not count them... -- Letta Tayler, Newsday, March 7th 2004 Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com Join the Club : http://www.mandrakeclub.com
Re: [newbie] MS: We know we suck, and we don't really care.
JoeHill wrote: Contorer wrote that end users stuck with Windows, despite the operating system's shortcomings, based on the high costs of abandoning heavy investments already made in APIs. 'The Windows API is so broad, so deep and so functional that most ISVs (independent software vendors) would be crazy not to use it. And it is so deeply embedded in the source code of many Windows apps that there is a huge switching cost to using a different operating system, instead,' the e-mail reads. 'It is this switching cost that has given the customers the patience to stick with Windows through all our mistakes, our buggy drivers, our high TCO (total cost of ownership), our lack of a sexy vision, at times, and many other difficulties,' the e-mail said. 'Customers constantly evaluate other desktop platforms, (but) it would be so much work to move over that they hope we just improve Windows rather than force them to move.' Link: http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=20040422231316209 Thats not gonna be too much of a big deal shortly... there are several things in the industry now related to MicroSoft, that are going to help Linux quiet abit.. - Allot of apps will in the next few years need to be swapped to Win64, and will require substantial code changes anyway. (see below.) - Microsoft themselves are going to break allot of their own backwards compatability, in fact they have already done so. --- Win2003 already breaks some software from win2000/XP. --- win XP service pack2 breaks more software. --- Windows Longhorn will break huge reams of existing software... it is to innovative to be backwards compatable. And you think that is the end?? Microsoft knows that in order to keep people upgrading, they know they can make it different, as long as they make it seem easier then reworking the programs to run on linux... But how long is that arguement going to last??? after Longhorn, microsoft are going to have to change everything even more to justify to people how upgading to whatever new they come up with is worth it.. Eventually developers are going to get sick of rewriting their apps each time MS come up with something they think people just have to have eventually they will realise that this is just more microsoft FUD and that in the long run, writting apps for a totally open API is simply better, particularly if the alternative is re-writing their apps every 5 years or so. regards Franki Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com Join the Club : http://www.mandrakeclub.com
Re: [newbie] MS: We know we suck, and we don't really care.
frankieh wrote: Thats not gonna be too much of a big deal shortly... there are several things in the industry now related to MicroSoft, that are going to help Linux quiet abit.. - Allot of apps will in the next few years need to be swapped to Win64, and will require substantial code changes anyway. (see below.) - Microsoft themselves are going to break allot of their own backwards compatability, in fact they have already done so. --- Win2003 already breaks some software from win2000/XP. --- win XP service pack2 breaks more software. --- Windows Longhorn will break huge reams of existing software... it is to innovative to be backwards compatable. And you think that is the end?? Microsoft knows that in order to keep people upgrading, they know they can make it different, as long as they make it seem easier then reworking the programs to run on linux... But how long is that arguement going to last??? after Longhorn, microsoft are going to have to change everything even more to justify to people how upgading to whatever new they come up with is worth it.. Eventually developers are going to get sick of rewriting their apps each time MS come up with something they think people just have to have eventually they will realise that this is just more microsoft FUD and that in the long run, writting apps for a totally open API is simply better, particularly if the alternative is re-writing their apps every 5 years or so. FrankieH; Don't forget that Linux is gaining a lot of popularity and momentum. That alone, will push a lot of software companies to seriously consider coming out with re-worked versions of their apps, and many are already doing exactly that. In many cases, well-estasblished apps written for Linux years ago have been improving by leaps and bounds, and as people start to migrate over to Linux, they'll start depending on those apps, instead of seeking commercial or proprietary ones. One last thing here. One of Microsoft's long term goals is to migrate most of their apps to web-based systems which will be sold as subscription services - ie; Microsoft Office. That's one of their prime reasons for coming up with dotNet. Part of Microsoft's game plan is to be able to sell those services across all platforms, since much of the web already is platform-agnostic. It's the easiest way to capture a higher marketshare. So, don't be too surprised to see a lot of companies coming out with web-based applications in the near future. If companies can build apps which will work just as well on Linux and MacOS, as they do on Windows, compatibility will take a distinct move up the ladder. Microsoft also knows that this is one way that they can continue to build crappy applications, without all those nasty crash events happening, simply by moving the app from the hard drive to the web. It also means that they'll probably try to sell it's merits by promoting the stability factor of the web. Also, this also explains why the new Windows ( currently due out sometime this decade ! ) will have a newer version of Internet Explorer (something like version 8) which will be tuned to take advantage of the new web-based apps that Microsoft will be selling. Don't be surprised if they call LongHorn something like Internet Commander or something, and it wouldn't surprise me if it was the core of the OS. Certainly would explain why the tried to merge IE 5 through 6 into the OS, and why Bill Gates was buying up cablevision companies in Europe a few years ago. Who else is gonna supply that much broadband to a user-base? Just a few thoughts for your consideration. Lanman Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com Join the Club : http://www.mandrakeclub.com
Re: [newbie] MS: We know we suck, and we don't really care.
Software issues aside, what about Windows XP affecting laptop hard drives? My boss had his second laptop hard drive failure this year. When talking to the software/hardware support people of the company, he was told that the stock of replacement laptop hard drives was very low. The reason: Windows XP is spinning the drives to death! This is a company that should have (conservative estimate) 15,000 to 25,000 laptops in service, nationwide in the USA. How long can a company afford to swap out bad laptop hard drives? Especially when using a 3rd party to make the switch. It's overnight shipping of the drives, then the 3rd party installation, then another shipping back to the company storehouses for refurbishing or whatever is done with the bad drives. The economics of the hardware failures caused by Windows XP, if uncorrected by Microsoft, will have to cause a company to switch operating systems. The Other. Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com Join the Club : http://www.mandrakeclub.com
Re: [newbie] MS: We know we suck, and we don't really care.
Lanman wrote: FrankieH; Don't forget that Linux is gaining a lot of popularity and momentum. That alone, will push a lot of software companies to seriously consider coming out with re-worked versions of their apps, and many are already doing exactly that. Yes, I think the fact that Macromedia are looking into it is a big win. They won't be the last. In many cases, well-estasblished apps written for Linux years ago have been improving by leaps and bounds, and as people start to migrate over to Linux, they'll start depending on those apps, instead of seeking commercial or proprietary ones. no arguements there. One last thing here. One of Microsoft's long term goals is to migrate most of their apps to web-based systems which will be sold as subscription services - ie; Microsoft Office. That's one of their prime reasons for coming up with dotNet. I totally disagree with this.. it may have once been the goal, before linux got where it is now. but it aint the goal anymore.. .net and C# were created to stop Java becoming the defacto enterprise development platform, something that would have taken it out of M$'s hands once they found out they couldn't make their own version of Java without having to pay their profits to Sun.. They can't afford to make Office a by the web subscription service that will run on any platfrom.. because that will totally remove the need for windows, and windows is still a huge M$ cash cow. The Mono project is just M$ paying lip service to the open operability thing, if you think it will be allowed to ever run Office on linux machines (without a court case saying it has to.) then you need your head read. Mono, as with most everything Microsoft has give away, will not contain ALL the api's that microsoft will be using.. you can count on that. just the same way that office now uses windows API's that M$ have not given to the rest of the community. When windows is no longer a cashcow for M$, and they can't do anything about it, THEN you might see them open up to office on other platforms. before then, I wouldn't hold your breath if I were you. (for example, try running windows update using mozilla.) Part of Microsoft's game plan is to be able to sell those services across all platforms, since much of the web already is platform-agnostic. It's the easiest way to capture a higher marketshare. They already have 90+% of the office software market, and they have a big windows monopoly as well, they are not going to sacrifice one for the other until they have no other choice. So, don't be too surprised to see a lot of companies coming out with web-based applications in the near future. If companies can build apps which will work just as well on Linux and MacOS, as they do on Windows, compatibility will take a distinct move up the ladder. Oh yes, I don't doubt that for a minute, but do you think microsoft are just going to give up the single biggest reason they have why people should run windows (the ability to run office integrated into all sorts of other software packages)?? thats not going to happen. When windows is irrelivant, and it starts costing office sales, then they will consider it, but not till them. Microsoft also knows that this is one way that they can continue to build crappy applications, without all those nasty crash events happening, simply by moving the app from the hard drive to the web. Do we really want MS writing office code that makes Linux crash so they can claim that windows is more stable??? it wouldn't be the first time. .NET code will still have security vunerabilities, and it will still be able to take down the underlying OS. (Just as Java can.) so do we want Office running on Mono on linux so that M$ can mess with linux's reputation even more??? It also means that they'll probably try to sell it's merits by promoting the stability factor of the web. Also, this also explains why the new Windows ( currently due out sometime this decade ! ) will have a newer version of Internet Explorer (something like version 8) which will be tuned to take advantage of the new web-based apps that Microsoft will be selling. Don't be surprised if they call LongHorn something like Internet Commander or something, and it wouldn't surprise me if it was the core of the OS. Certainly would explain why the tried to merge IE 5 through 6 into the OS, and why Bill Gates was buying up cablevision companies in Europe a few years ago. Who else is gonna supply that much broadband to a user-base? Well who knows, but as I said above, they will not open anything up till they don't need windows anymore. Thats not going to happen anytime soon. As for Longhorn, it will be much less of an upgrade then they initially touted it as... They can't go ALL OUT for net applicatons because they have been stung before by the lack of widespread broadband.. They won't make that mistake again.. Longhorn will have to work both ways, because
Re: [newbie] MS: We know we suck, and we don't really care.
Frankie; Heads Up! frankieh wrote: Lanman wrote: FrankieH; Don't forget that Linux is gaining a lot of popularity and momentum. That alone, will push a lot of software companies to seriously consider coming out with re-worked versions of their apps, and many are already doing exactly that. Yes, I think the fact that Macromedia are looking into it is a big win. They won't be the last. In many cases, well-estasblished apps written for Linux years ago have been improving by leaps and bounds, and as people start to migrate over to Linux, they'll start depending on those apps, instead of seeking commercial or proprietary ones. no arguements there. One last thing here. One of Microsoft's long term goals is to migrate most of their apps to web-based systems which will be sold as subscription services - ie; Microsoft Office. That's one of their prime reasons for coming up with dotNet. I totally disagree with this.. it may have once been the goal, before linux got where it is now. but it aint the goal anymore.. .net and C# were created to stop Java becoming the defacto enterprise development platform, something that would have taken it out of M$'s hands once they found out they couldn't make their own version of Java without having to pay their profits to Sun.. They can't afford to make Office a by the web subscription service that will run on any platfrom.. because that will totally remove the need for windows, and windows is still a huge M$ cash cow. Not necessarily. Microsoft now needs to put some effort into protecting their cash cows, and Windows isn't one anymore. Notice that they either spout a lot of releases or they take a long time to release a newer version. That's because they either view a relase as a Hit or a Miss Now it's their server versions and licenses, as well as Office that have become the cash cows, except that the server versions are taking a serious hit from Linux and so are their license sales. In order to get past the poor history that Windows has had, they'll be starting to move to a Light Windows install, with a large block of apps only available via the web. Much like you pointed out below with Mozilla, you'll still need their browser to access the applications, or a plugin for other browsers, much the same way that Microsoft made Office, Outlook Express and Internet Explorer versions for iMac's. If that is correct, expect everyone to start paying for it one way or another, assuming that they want those features and applications. many consumers ( hell Most of them ) won;t have a choice but to continue on with whatever M$ spews out of their Willy Wonka factories! Besides, as in the past, many of the big PC producers wull Bundle this stuff into their systems - no matter which OS it runs. By manipulating that cross-platform type of architecture, Microsoft can go a long way towards getting rid of a bunch of anti-trust lawsuits, and by selling or licensing the technology out to it's competitors and partner companies. They're after a 100% market share, and they also want to cash in on Linux, MacOS, and anything else that gets popular. The Mono project is just M$ paying lip service to the open operability thing, if you think it will be allowed to ever run Office on linux machines (without a court case saying it has to.) then you need your head read. Allowed ?? Who needs to allow it? Microsoft needs permission? C'Mon! Mono, as with most everything Microsoft has give away, will not contain ALL the api's that microsoft will be using.. you can count on that. just the same way that office now uses windows API's that M$ have not given to the rest of the community. It won't be a question of API's anymore, except for a fairly short list of companies that have good resons not to. For those, you'll still install them in the normal manner. For the rest, it'll be a question of plugins and codecs designed to control the apps, but they will be managed, tracked, administered and monitored on the backend (ie; web-servers, database servers, etc.), so they'll only have to comply with browser interfaces. That makes it easier to maintain, develop and upgrade. Oh, BTW, My head is fine thanks. I don't need any! g When windows is no longer a cashcow for M$, and they can't do anything about it, THEN you might see them open up to office on other platforms. before then, I wouldn't hold your breath if I were you. Uh, Frankie? Windows is NOT a cash cow, now! That's why there's a lot of talk about giving it away, to maintain the user's dependancy on Microsoft. Hell, I can buy it legally for less than $100.00 Canadian through my wholesalers, and Dell, HP, etc., ( for example ) pay less than $50.00 US for it. It won't take a lot of pressure from consumers switching to Linux to force that price even lower! Free is only a few years away, after Microsoft rapes everyone for a few versions of LongHorn that is. (for example, try running windows
Re: [newbie] MS: We know we suck, and we don't really care.
Lanman wrote: frankieh wrote: Thats not gonna be too much of a big deal shortly... there are several things in the industry now related to MicroSoft, that are going to help Linux quiet abit.. - Allot of apps will in the next few years need to be swapped to Win64, and will require substantial code changes anyway. (see below.) - Microsoft themselves are going to break allot of their own backwards compatability, in fact they have already done so. --- Win2003 already breaks some software from win2000/XP. --- win XP service pack2 breaks more software. --- Windows Longhorn will break huge reams of existing software... it is to innovative to be backwards compatable. And you think that is the end?? Microsoft knows that in order to keep people upgrading, they know they can make it different, as long as they make it seem easier then reworking the programs to run on linux... But how long is that arguement going to last??? after Longhorn, microsoft are going to have to change everything even more to justify to people how upgading to whatever new they come up with is worth it.. Eventually developers are going to get sick of rewriting their apps each time MS come up with something they think people just have to have eventually they will realise that this is just more microsoft FUD and that in the long run, writting apps for a totally open API is simply better, particularly if the alternative is re-writing their apps every 5 years or so. FrankieH; Don't forget that Linux is gaining a lot of popularity and momentum. That alone, will push a lot of software companies to seriously consider coming out with re-worked versions of their apps, and many are already doing exactly that. In many cases, well-estasblished apps written for Linux years ago have been improving by leaps and bounds, and as people start to migrate over to Linux, they'll start depending on those apps, instead of seeking commercial or proprietary ones. One last thing here. One of Microsoft's long term goals is to migrate most of their apps to web-based systems which will be sold as subscription services - ie; Microsoft Office. That's one of their prime reasons for coming up with dotNet. Part of Microsoft's game plan is to be able to sell those services across all platforms, since much of the web already is platform-agnostic. It's the easiest way to capture a higher marketshare. So, don't be too surprised to see a lot of companies coming out with web-based applications in the near future. If companies can build apps which will work just as well on Linux and MacOS, as they do on Windows, compatibility will take a distinct move up the ladder. Microsoft also knows that this is one way that they can continue to build crappy applications, without all those nasty crash events happening, simply by moving the app from the hard drive to the web. It also means that they'll probably try to sell it's merits by promoting the stability factor of the web. ROTFL. Also, this also explains why the new Windows ( currently due out sometime this decade ! ) will have a newer version of Internet Explorer (something like version 8) which will be tuned to take advantage of the new web-based apps that Microsoft will be selling. Don't be surprised if they call LongHorn something like Internet Commander or something, and it wouldn't surprise me if it was the core of the OS. Certainly would explain why the tried to merge IE 5 through 6 into the OS, and why Bill Gates was buying up cablevision companies in Europe a few years ago. Who else is gonna supply that much broadband to a user-base? This could be very amusing. Anyone remember Win98's active desktop? You make your whole dektop environment dependent on the thing that is most likely to crash. Even Windows users didn't buy that for long. Sir Robin -- If the lion could speak, we would not understand it. - Wittgenstein Robin Turner IDMYO Bilkent Universitesi Ankara 06533 Turkey www.bilkent.edu.tr/~robin Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com Join the Club : http://www.mandrakeclub.com
[newbie] MS: We know we suck, and we don't really care.
Contorer wrote that end users stuck with Windows, despite the operating system's shortcomings, based on the high costs of abandoning heavy investments already made in APIs. 'The Windows API is so broad, so deep and so functional that most ISVs (independent software vendors) would be crazy not to use it. And it is so deeply embedded in the source code of many Windows apps that there is a huge switching cost to using a different operating system, instead,' the e-mail reads. 'It is this switching cost that has given the customers the patience to stick with Windows through all our mistakes, our buggy drivers, our high TCO (total cost of ownership), our lack of a sexy vision, at times, and many other difficulties,' the e-mail said. 'Customers constantly evaluate other desktop platforms, (but) it would be so much work to move over that they hope we just improve Windows rather than force them to move.' Link: http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=20040422231316209 -- JoeHill Registered Linux user #282046 Homepage: www.orderinchaos.org +++ In this possibly terminal phase of human existence, democracy and freedom are more than just ideals to be valued - they may be essential to survival -- Noam Chomsky Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com Join the Club : http://www.mandrakeclub.com
Re: [newbie] MS: We know we suck, and we don't really care.
On Sat, 2004-04-24 at 06:40, JoeHill wrote: 'It is this switching cost that has given the customers the patience to stick with Windows through all our mistakes, our buggy drivers, our high TCO (total cost of ownership), our lack of a sexy vision, at times, and many other difficulties,' the e-mail said. 'Customers constantly evaluate other desktop platforms, (but) it would be so much work to move over that they hope we just improve Windows rather than force them to move.' So when ya installing XP Pro, Joe? Sad to see ya leave this forum, mate. I'm sure the humourless bastards and bastardettes in the MS forums are going to love ya... (g) stephen kuhn - owner == illawarra computer services a kuhn media australia company http://kma.0catch.com -- * This message was composed on a 100% Microsoft free computer * We expressly refuse to utilise Microsoft DRM encoded documents -- No woman can call herself free until she can choose consciously whether she will or will not be a mother. -- Margaret H. Sanger Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com Join the Club : http://www.mandrakeclub.com
Re: [newbie] MS: We know we suck, and we don't really care.
Stephen Kuhn wrote: I'm sure the humourless bastards and bastardettes in the MS forums are going to love ya... (g) stephen kuhn - owner Or Maybe Not? Lanman Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com Join the Club : http://www.mandrakeclub.com
Re: [newbie] MS: We know we suck, and we don't really care.
So, let's all just stick with Windows and *CONTINUE* to pay for what would otherwise be free with Linux That is the dumbest concept I have ever heard. Can't believe a human being actually thinks that way. I would much rather switch to something, knowing I lost money, if it would keep me from losing *more* money, than stay where I am and, knowingly, *continue* to throw lose away. On Friday 23 April 2004 1:40 pm, JoeHill wrote: Contorer wrote that end users stuck with Windows, despite the operating system's shortcomings, based on the high costs of abandoning heavy investments already made in APIs. 'The Windows API is so broad, so deep and so functional that most ISVs (independent software vendors) would be crazy not to use it. And it is so deeply embedded in the source code of many Windows apps that there is a huge switching cost to using a different operating system, instead,' the e-mail reads. 'It is this switching cost that has given the customers the patience to stick with Windows through all our mistakes, our buggy drivers, our high TCO (total cost of ownership), our lack of a sexy vision, at times, and many other difficulties,' the e-mail said. 'Customers constantly evaluate other desktop platforms, (but) it would be so much work to move over that they hope we just improve Windows rather than force them to move.' Link: http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=20040422231316209 -- Registered Linux User #350412 MacGregor Despite Them! Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com Join the Club : http://www.mandrakeclub.com
Re: [newbie] MS: We know we suck, and we don't really care.
On Sat, 2004-04-24 at 07:06, Ian MacGregor wrote: So, let's all just stick with Windows and *CONTINUE* to pay for what would otherwise be free with Linux That is the dumbest concept I have ever heard. Can't believe a human being actually thinks that way. I would much rather switch to something, knowing I lost money, if it would keep me from losing *more* money, than stay where I am and, knowingly, *continue* to throw lose away. Consider that there are folks in corporate positions that fear new things; and fear change. They don't think outside the box and therefore are enslaved to the thinking that Microsoft has instilled in them. It's basically the same as about ten years ago having desktop users switch from OS/2 to Windows - just a matter of time and just a matter of awakening; believe me, there are more folks in management that are thinking about TCO with Windows - the IT costs for dealing with support issues and viruses/trojans/back doors/spyware/adware, the costs of licensing, the bi-yearly costs of upgrading Office - that balanced against training doesn't come out very well - and the true TCO of a Windows network begins to rear it's ugly head. For all the FUD that M$ spreads about linux having a higher TCO in the end, well, they fail to mention those other hidden costs in having to run and maintain a Windows based network... Stick that in your pipe and smoke it. stephen kuhn - owner == illawarra computer services a kuhn media australia company http://kma.0catch.com -- * This message was composed on a 100% Microsoft free computer * We expressly refuse to utilise Microsoft DRM encoded documents -- Claret is the liquor for boys; port for men; but he who aspires to be a hero ... must drink brandy. -- Samuel Johnson Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com Join the Club : http://www.mandrakeclub.com
Re: [newbie] MS: We know we suck, and we don't really care.
On Friday 23 April 2004 01:52 pm, Stephen Kuhn wrote: On Sat, 2004-04-24 at 06:40, JoeHill wrote: 'It is this switching cost that has given the customers the patience to stick with Windows through all our mistakes, our buggy drivers, our high TCO (total cost of ownership), our lack of a sexy vision, at times, and many other difficulties,' the e-mail said. 'Customers constantly evaluate other desktop platforms, (but) it would be so much work to move over that they hope we just improve Windows rather than force them to move.' So when ya installing XP Pro, Joe? Sad to see ya leave this forum, mate. I'm sure the humourless bastards and bastardettes in the MS forums are going to love ya... (g) Joe Pill on a u$ux forem? gGG I wanna see that. stephen kuhn - owner == illawarra computer services a kuhn media australia company http://kma.0catch.com -- * This message was composed on a 100% Microsoft free computer * We expressly refuse to utilise Microsoft DRM encoded documents -- No woman can call herself free until she can choose consciously whether she will or will not be a mother. -- Margaret H. Sanger Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com Join the Club : http://www.mandrakeclub.com
Re: [newbie] MS: We know we suck, and we don't really care.
On Sat, 2004-04-24 at 10:06, Aron Smith wrote: Joe Pill on a u$ux forem? gGG I wanna see that. I could see him trying to port Pek(er)WM to WindowsXP and getting into heated political debates concerning Redmond, illicit substances, software piracy, capitalism, hacking, pr0n, family moral values, DUI's, bloated code, righteous Microsoft business and legal practices, OSS/GPL'd Microsoft code, skinning otters, mistaking goats for poodles, how to clean your bong in 10 easy steps - ya know, things like that. Edu-ma-kay-shun-al stuff. stephen kuhn - owner == illawarra computer services a kuhn media australia company http://kma.0catch.com -- * This message was composed on a 100% Microsoft free computer * We expressly refuse to utilise Microsoft DRM encoded documents -- Got Mole problems? Call Avogadro at 6.02 x 10^23. Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com Join the Club : http://www.mandrakeclub.com
Re: [newbie] MS: We know we suck, and we don't really care.
On Sat, 24 Apr 2004 07:06 am, many eyes viewed Ian MacGregor's words:- So, let's all just stick with Windows and *CONTINUE* to pay for what would otherwise be free with Linux That is the dumbest concept I have ever heard. Can't believe a human being actually thinks that way. I would much rather switch to something, knowing I lost money, if it would keep me from losing *more* money, than stay where I am and, knowingly, *continue* to throw lose away. Unfortunately most human beings rather the devil they know than the devil they don't, sad but true. To get anything to work, it must run parallel to human nature in the main. Human nature takes eons to alter. Some of these instinctive acts are still relevant, others are not. Your eyelid closing before an object hits the eyeball. Very beneficial. Walking a path that others have walked upon, means you don't fall into the quicksand and get swallowed up. The known path is littered with the graves of pioneers. If all were pioneers, then there would be no one to bury them. Using windows because you know it and not Linux, because you don't. Not wise at all. But a natural inclination. Charlie. -- Registered Linux User:- 329524 + I have lived some thirty-odd years on this planet, and I have yet to hear the first syllable of valuable or even earnest advice from my seniors. ...Henry David Thoreau This email is guaranteed to be wholly Linux Mandrake 9.2, KMail v1.5.3 and OpenOffice.org1.1.0 Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com Join the Club : http://www.mandrakeclub.com
Re: [newbie] MS: We know we suck, and we don't really care.
On Fri, 23 Apr 2004 17:06:18 -0700 Aron Smith disseminated the following: Joe Pill on a u$ux forem? gGG I wanna see that. I dropped in over at Neowin.net a while back actually. Got them all ...worked up... Heh. -- JoeHill Registered Linux user #282046 Homepage: www.orderinchaos.org +++ He who controls others may be powerful, but he who has mastered himself is mightier still. -- Lao Tsu Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com Join the Club : http://www.mandrakeclub.com
Re: [newbie] MS: We know we suck, and we don't really care.
On Sat, 24 Apr 2004 06:52:59 +1000 Stephen Kuhn disseminated the following: 'It is this switching cost that has given the customers the patience to stick with Windows through all our mistakes, our buggy drivers, our high TCO (total cost of ownership), our lack of a sexy vision, at times, and many other difficulties,' the e-mail said. 'Customers constantly evaluate other desktop platforms, (but) it would be so much work to move over that they hope we just improve Windows rather than force them to move.' So when ya installing XP Pro, Joe? Sad to see ya leave this forum, mate. I'm sure the humourless bastards and bastardettes in the MS forums are going to love ya... (g) Puh-lease, listen, like you I have to deal with fscking XP a *lot* for work, and it's like driving an old, half dead Toyota (G). Must admit, I don't know much about the Office shit, but this one blew me away. This client calls me because all of a sudden, his Outlook 'mail client' (shudder) opens with the message that his messages and contacts are not accessible. He's seriously pissed. You know what the problem was? http://support.microsoft.com/default.aspx?scid=kb;en-us;296088 So, no warning, just a serious fuckup that could easily be avoided by *not putting every message and contact into one big stupid-ass file!* MS developers are a bunch of moronic crackheads, but hell, they make me money. -- JoeHill Registered Linux user #282046 Homepage: www.orderinchaos.org +++ ...we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the military-industrial complex. -- President Dwight D. Eisenhower, in his 1961 farewell address Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com Join the Club : http://www.mandrakeclub.com
Re: [newbie] MS: We know we suck, and we don't really care.
On Sat, 24 Apr 2004 09:22:58 +1000 Charlie disseminated the following: So, let's all just stick with Windows and *CONTINUE* to pay for what would otherwise be free with Linux That is the dumbest concept I have ever heard. Can't believe a human being actually thinks that way. I would much rather switch to something, knowing I lost money, if it would keep me from losing *more* money, than stay where I am and, knowingly, *continue* to throw lose away. Unfortunately most human beings rather the devil they know than the devil they don't, sad but true. To get anything to work, it must run parallel to human nature in the main. Human nature takes eons to alter. Some of these instinctive acts are still relevant, others are not. Your eyelid closing before an object hits the eyeball. Very beneficial. Walking a path that others have walked upon, means you don't fall into the quicksand and get swallowed up. The known path is littered with the graves of pioneers. If all were pioneers, then there would be no one to bury them. Using windows because you know it and not Linux, because you don't. Not wise at all. But a natural inclination. I don't believe you can pin it on 'human nature', dude. People, like all life, go for the bigger and better deal. If you find a spot that's comfy, you'll stick around, sure. But if you see a bunch of people having a grand ol' time a ways off, and their cave isn't crashing in on their heads unpredictably as yours has recently, you gonna move. We've been lulled into a restless sleep by the marketing and persuasion industry, one that spends literally billions of dollars to do so. A complacent and obsequious market is a predictable one, and that's what they want. -- JoeHill Registered Linux user #282046 Homepage: www.orderinchaos.org +++ There are literally several levels of SCO being wrong. And even if we were to live in that alternate universe where SCO would be right, they'd still be wrong. -- Linus Torvalds Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com Join the Club : http://www.mandrakeclub.com
Re: [newbie] MS: We know we suck, and we don't really care.
On Sat, 24 Apr 2004 10:33:48 +1000 Stephen Kuhn disseminated the following: Joe Pill on a u$ux forem? gGG I wanna see that. I could see him trying to port Pek(er)WM to WindowsXP and getting into heated political debates concerning Redmond, illicit substances, software piracy, capitalism, hacking, pr0n, family moral values, DUI's, bloated code, righteous Microsoft business and legal practices, OSS/GPL'd Microsoft code, skinning otters, mistaking goats for poodles, how to clean your bong in 10 easy steps - ya know, things like that. Edu-ma-kay-shun-al stuff. You *know it* mate! (Though I don't know much about hacking) -- JoeHill Registered Linux user #282046 Homepage: www.orderinchaos.org +++ In this possibly terminal phase of human existence, democracy and freedom are more than just ideals to be valued - they may be essential to survival -- Noam Chomsky Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com Join the Club : http://www.mandrakeclub.com
Re: [newbie] MS: We know we suck, and we don't really care.
On Sat, 2004-04-24 at 12:10, JoeHill wrote: Puh-lease, listen, like you I have to deal with fscking XP a *lot* for work, and it's like driving an old, half dead Toyota (G). Oooouchgot me there matey. Must admit, I don't know much about the Office shit, but this one blew me away. This client calls me because all of a sudden, his Outlook 'mail client' (shudder) opens with the message that his messages and contacts are not accessible. He's seriously pissed. You know what the problem was? http://support.microsoft.com/default.aspx?scid=kb;en-us;296088 So, no warning, just a serious fuckup that could easily be avoided by *not putting every message and contact into one big stupid-ass file!* MS developers are a bunch of moronic crackheads, but hell, they make me money. I've dealt with this issue before - but in an easier manner: Sold the customer a RedHat server; used the standard imap/sendmail setup; copied particular folders to the imap server therefore deleting them from the .PST (this took DAYS - no joke); upon completion, reset the configuration for LookOut to just use the IMAP server; customer happy, worked faster than it did before. Customer decided to make use of another server (linux, of course) for file/print sharing. Now I only drop in once in a while to check the Windows2000/XP workstations - the server keep on serving... stephen kuhn - owner == illawarra computer services a kuhn media australia company http://kma.0catch.com -- * This message was composed on a 100% Microsoft free computer * We expressly refuse to utilise Microsoft DRM encoded documents -- Sometimes the gods have no taste at all. They allow sunrises and sunsets in ridiculous pink and blue hues that any professional artist would dismiss as the work of some enthsiastic amateur who'd never looked at a real sunset. This was one of those sunrises. It was the kind of sunrise a man looks at and says, 'No real sunrise could paint the sky Surgical Appliance Pink.' Nevertheless, it was beautiful. (The Thief of Time) Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com Join the Club : http://www.mandrakeclub.com
