Re: [newbie] OT Hardware weirdness 2
On Sunday 26 January 2003 06:12 pm, Ronald J. Hall wrote: On Sunday 26 January 2003 06:06 pm, Chuck Burns wrote: Well.. for starters, P4's have MUCH better thermal resistance, not to mention a thermal diode that can regulate the core CPU temperature if the fan happens to fail, or if the heatsink happens to fall off.. Many 3rd party tests have shown that a P4 cpu can run even without a heatsink, with no damage to the CPU at all. It slows down if it detects temperature overload, and prevents the core temp. from reaching critical levels.. (Not to mention the 400-533mhz cache speeds, compared to athlon's measly 200mhz.. :p) Thats interesting. I always thought that AMDs' chips were better performers at the same speed rangefrom what I've read. (but I'm no expert). depends on how you define performer Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] OT Hardware weirdness 2
On Monday 27 January 2003 04:04 am, Anne Wilson wrote: On Sunday 26 Jan 2003 11:12 pm, Ronald J. Hall wrote: On Sunday 26 January 2003 06:06 pm, Chuck Burns wrote: Well.. for starters, P4's have MUCH better thermal resistance, not to mention a thermal diode that can regulate the core CPU temperature if the fan happens to fail, or if the heatsink happens to fall off.. Many 3rd party tests have shown that a P4 cpu can run even without a heatsink, with no damage to the CPU at all. It slows down if it detects temperature overload, and prevents the core temp. from reaching critical levels.. (Not to mention the 400-533mhz cache speeds, compared to athlon's measly 200mhz.. :p) Thats interesting. I always thought that AMDs' chips were better performers at the same speed rangefrom what I've read. (but I'm no expert). Dertainly that's implied in most of the reviews I've read, which is why they started the comparative numbering system. Anne the comparative numbering system is something they have been doing for years, and it seems to me to be a comparative pricing system more than speed. Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] OT Hardware weirdness 2
On Monday 27 Jan 2003 3:31 pm, et wrote: On Monday 27 January 2003 04:04 am, Anne Wilson wrote: On Sunday 26 Jan 2003 11:12 pm, Ronald J. Hall wrote: On Sunday 26 January 2003 06:06 pm, Chuck Burns wrote: Well.. for starters, P4's have MUCH better thermal resistance, not to mention a thermal diode that can regulate the core CPU temperature if the fan happens to fail, or if the heatsink happens to fall off.. Many 3rd party tests have shown that a P4 cpu can run even without a heatsink, with no damage to the CPU at all. It slows down if it detects temperature overload, and prevents the core temp. from reaching critical levels.. (Not to mention the 400-533mhz cache speeds, compared to athlon's measly 200mhz.. :p) Thats interesting. I always thought that AMDs' chips were better performers at the same speed rangefrom what I've read. (but I'm no expert). Dertainly that's implied in most of the reviews I've read, which is why they started the comparative numbering system. Anne the comparative numbering system is something they have been doing for years, and it seems to me to be a comparative pricing system more than speed. Wasn't it Cyrix/IBM that used to do it? Anne -- Registered Linux User No.293302 Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] OT Hardware weirdness 2
Paul wrote: Yup, no problem. I am of course NOT going to twiddle the running drives around, but they function wonderfully either on the side or straight up. changing hd position was meant to be after power off and spin down. i have seen drives develop problems and only run at new angle. i know of one drive that is running for 8 years now, raised 1.5 on left side. So it is the mobo, as Marc and et also already suspected. Too bad. This ASUS board was pricey. But then, even good things can die an early death. do not give up on board. i had a problem with one box where cpu was over heating. adding a fan and clearing drive cables from around cpu allowed air to flow and cpu cooled down. adding silicon heat sink compound will help make cpu run cooler, if you have not already applied. Re temperature/sensors: I did indeed have Gkrellm set up wrong. The high value as reported by sensors is +40C (I found a multiplier x2 in Gkrellm) and the limit is reportedly +60C, so that should be all fine. if you improve air flow and now that you have sensors straight, test again. all is not lost yet. Thanks for all the help, once more. most welcome. You are a wonderful bunch people!! my last wife does not think i am. but that is why she is my ex. :) peace out. tc,hago. g . -- think green... save a tree, save a life, save time, save bandwidth, save storage. send email... text/plain - disable pgp/gpg/geek code attachments =+= if you are proud to be an american, then buy made in america. Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] OT Hardware weirdness 2
1/26/03 1:46:32 AM, Paul [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In reply to Stephen's mail, d.d. 26 Jan 2003 12:21:17 +1100: What if there is a mercury switch in either the PSU or somewhere within the casing itself that would cause this? I have been thinking about this also, but I have not been able to find a switch like that. More and more I feel that this is a faulty contact/connector or something. I booted from a floppy and carefully started fiddling with the power cables to try and track a broken/nearly broken one. No luck there either. (Uptime now, PC still on the side, is 11.33 hours...) Paul -- Never lend books -- nobody ever returns them; the only books I have in my library are those which people have lent me. -Anatole France http://nlpagan.net - Linux by Mandrake - Sylpheed by Hiro Here is a old trick that has been used for troubleshooting this type of problem since the dawn of time, long before PCs since just after the invention of the printed circuit board almost prehistoric. Get your self a brand new pencil with a big new pink eraser. Next just to be on the safe side wrap the metal cylinder that holds the eraser on the pencel with a wrap or 2 of electrical tape. Now you can use the eraser end of the pencil as a safe and effective probe It will be well insulated to avoid damage to components and the insulation will also protect you if the pencil should contact anything that is high voltage. The rubber eraser is also a great NON SLIP surface to probe components with and the pencil is thin enough to reach into tight spaces. use it to reach inside the machine while it is running and wiggle various parts and points near plug in connectors. Try to use the eraser to gently push down on parts to simulate the down ward force thet gravity would create while the machine is on its side and see where you have to push to make it work or lay the machine on its side and support it however necessory to alow you to gently push on parts and see where you need to push to make it stop running. This should help to pinpoint the problem. You may find that it is not a bad connection or intermittent short but a cracked circuit trace on a board, a pain in the butt to repair if that ends up being the case. Another use for the pencil eraser is if you find a suspect connector you can use the eraser to clean contacts to remove oxides or dirt that can cause this type of problem. The eraser is mildley abrasive and will pollish up and clean edge connectors on a circuit board fast and easy. Good luck, these intermittant problems can be a mind bender. Marc Gee this was fun I think that now I may write a book and call it A Thousand And One Uses For The Number Two Pencil, I am shure it will be a best seller Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] OT Hardware weirdness 2
On Sunday 26 January 2003 02:43 am, Paul wrote: In reply to g's mail, d.d. Sun, 26 Jan 2003 00:56:31 +: knowledge of your back broke desktop/tower contents would be helpful. if it is still running, i would suggest 3 possible problems to go after first. #1 = power supply: does fan stop? No, it keeps going. do you lose all voltages? No. There is still power on the mainboard led and the leds of the network cards. #2 = heat: are you testing with covers on or off? Both. Same result. do you have good air circulation? cpu have correct heat sink and fan? Yes and yes. is memory over heating? No, it is not. I cannot imagine that it does. I can leave the PC off for 2 hours, which should be enough to cool off most parts. When I switch the PC on in the upright position (and refrain from smoking ;) it stops within 2 minutes. The hybernate led starts blinking and that's it. Which really is weird, since I have the BIOS set to never go into hybernate. does mainboard have heat sensors? Yes, they both show on LM Sensors (through Gkrellm). The CPU (Athlon 1200) shows 78C (149F) and something else shows 29.2C (75.5F). I am not sure if I set the multiplier readings in Gkrellm correctly, but this is what I also could see (plus or minus a few degrees) when then machine was still upright. So no change there. #3 = harddisk: is drive new? if used, was it previously mounted flat or on side? The drives (2 x 30Gb ata100) came with the system. It is a little over 1.5 years old now. The drives previously were mounted flat, now they are on the side. if drive is flat and stops, flip upside down, still run? if drive on side and stops, flip to other side, still run? if drive is flat and stops, turn to side, still run? if drive on side and stops, turn to flat, still run? I'd have to try these out sometime. I'll let you know. Thanks for the ideas. Paul think green... save a tree, save a life, save time, save bandwidth, save storage. send email... text/plain - disable pgp/gpg/geek code attachments I like this!!! :-) I think it is time to upgrade the mother board. this sucker has a microscopic crack, or one of the mount screws that should be isolated is shorting that board to the box... can you take the MoBo out and set it on a wooden or plexiglass sheet (to insulate it) connect a power supply and video card and see it it boots, and if it does, pick the board up (use insulting gloves) and see if sitting sideways makes the difference. Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] OT Hardware weirdness 2
On Sunday January 26 2003 01:43 am, Paul wrote: Yes, they both show on LM Sensors (through Gkrellm). The CPU (Athlon 1200) shows 78C (149F) and something else shows 29.2C (75.5F). I am not sure if I set the multiplier readings in Gkrellm correctly, but this is what I also could see (plus or minus a few degrees) when then machine was still upright. So no change there. Type 'sensors' in a terminal if you aren't sure you have gkrellm configured correctly. If 'sensors' is showing 78C, that's your weirdness problem. First of all, AMD Athlon's (unlike Intels) don't have an internal diode for reporting the actual core temp. An external probe is used. AMD says to add 10 to 20C to the probe temp to better approximate the actual core temp. IME, about 12C (10C from a pin probe, to 15C for a contact probe) is the typical amount to add. To illustrate, silicon is an insulator. Measuring the internal temp of a cpu with an external probe is sort'a like tryin to measure the temp of electrical wires inside a wall, by mashing a thermometer against the plaster. OK, maybe that's a little exageration, but you get the idea ;) AMD specs Athlons to fail at 90C core temp. This upper limit will be lowered if you overheat the core even once, but it usually takes several times. When you see 78C from the probe, your core temp is probly 90C, maybe even as high as 98C. Poof! You're lucky the system quits, rather than completely fryin that Athlon and the motherboard. Re-mount your heatsink on that athlon squarely and firmly using thermal grease, not a thermal pad. The $2 grease from Radio Shack is all you need. Apply a thin layer. Keep your case temp as close to room temp as possible. You should be able to keep that cpu under 55C from the probe, even under sustained 100% load. 'Course the 55 probe is really upper 60's core temp, but far enough under 90C that even occasional spikes in the core temp shouldn't cause failure. After fixin your heatsink, see if the system won't run properly (upright). If it's still runnin too hot, try pointing a table fan into the case with the cover off. If you can then run at more normal temps, you need to improve your heatsink, fans and case ventilation. If you still have weirdness with improved cooling, it's likely you overheated the core one too many times and the cpu is internally damaged. You may have also caused some damage to the capacitors on the motherboard, particularly those surrounding the cpu socket. If you suspect you've permanently damaged the cpu/mobo, all is still not lost. Underclock it, if the mobo supports it. The multiplier on that 1200 is not locked. Keep the FSB at spec, but try dropping the multiplier by .5 to as much as 2. IOW's, if it's 9x133, try droppin the multiplier to 8 or 8.5. If it's a 100mhz FSB cpu (12x100), try 10 or 11x100. Might keep you goin till you can replace the system. If it comes to that, I strongly suggest you only use AMD recommended power supplies, motherboards, and heatsinks, if you aren't now doin so. -- Tom Brinkman Corpus Christi, Texas Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] OT Hardware weirdness 2
Paul wrote: No, it keeps going. No. There is still power on the mainboard led and the leds of the network cards. Both. Same result. Yes and yes. No, it is not. I cannot imagine that it does. I can leave the PC off for 2 hours, which should be enough to cool off most parts. When I switch the PC Yes, they both show on LM Sensors (through Gkrellm). The drives (2 x 30Gb ata100) came with the system. It is a little over 1.5 years old now. The drives previously were mounted flat, now they are on the side. I'd have to try these out sometime. I'll let you know. Thanks for the ideas. ok. from your replies, it is now to decide if problems is with mainboard or if you have a harddrive problem. with box in normal upright position, put harddrive on it's side. does system stay up? I like this!!! :-) glad you enjoyed. peace out. tc,hago. g . -- think green... save a tree, save a life, save time, save bandwidth, save storage. send email... text/plain - disable pgp/gpg/geek code attachments =+= if you are proud to be an american, then buy made in america. Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] OT Hardware weirdness 2
On Sunday 26 Jan 2003 2:17 pm, Tom Brinkman wrote: On Sunday January 26 2003 01:43 am, Paul wrote: Yes, they both show on LM Sensors (through Gkrellm). The CPU (Athlon 1200) shows 78C (149F) and something else shows 29.2C (75.5F). I am not sure if I set the multiplier readings in Gkrellm correctly, but this is what I also could see (plus or minus a few degrees) when then machine was still upright. So no change there. Type 'sensors' in a terminal if you aren't sure you have gkrellm configured correctly. If 'sensors' is showing 78C, that's your weirdness problem. First of all, AMD Athlon's (unlike Intels) don't have an internal diode for reporting the actual core temp. An external probe is used. AMD says to add 10 to 20C to the probe temp to better approximate the actual core temp. IME, about 12C (10C from a pin probe, to 15C for a contact probe) is the typical amount to add. To illustrate, silicon is an insulator. Measuring the internal temp of a cpu with an external probe is sort'a like tryin to measure the temp of electrical wires inside a wall, by mashing a thermometer against the plaster. OK, maybe that's a little exageration, but you get the idea ;) AMD specs Athlons to fail at 90C core temp. This upper limit will be lowered if you overheat the core even once, but it usually takes several times. When you see 78C from the probe, your core temp is probly 90C, maybe even as high as 98C. Poof! You're lucky the system quits, rather than completely fryin that Athlon and the motherboard. Re-mount your heatsink on that athlon squarely and firmly using thermal grease, not a thermal pad. The $2 grease from Radio Shack is all you need. Apply a thin layer. Keep your case temp as close to room temp as possible. You should be able to keep that cpu under 55C from the probe, even under sustained 100% load. 'Course the 55 probe is really upper 60's core temp, but far enough under 90C that even occasional spikes in the core temp shouldn't cause failure. After fixin your heatsink, see if the system won't run properly (upright). If it's still runnin too hot, try pointing a table fan into the case with the cover off. If you can then run at more normal temps, you need to improve your heatsink, fans and case ventilation. If you still have weirdness with improved cooling, it's likely you overheated the core one too many times and the cpu is internally damaged. You may have also caused some damage to the capacitors on the motherboard, particularly those surrounding the cpu socket. If you suspect you've permanently damaged the cpu/mobo, all is still not lost. Underclock it, if the mobo supports it. The multiplier on that 1200 is not locked. Keep the FSB at spec, but try dropping the multiplier by .5 to as much as 2. IOW's, if it's 9x133, try droppin the multiplier to 8 or 8.5. If it's a 100mhz FSB cpu (12x100), try 10 or 11x100. Might keep you goin till you can replace the system. If it comes to that, I strongly suggest you only use AMD recommended power supplies, motherboards, and heatsinks, if you aren't now doin so. Tom - I'm not doubting you, and I'll certainly keep this post for reference, but how is that affected by orientation? Why would it run longer if on its side? Anne -- Registered Linux User No.293302 Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] OT Hardware weirdness 2
On Sunday 26 Jan 2003 5:04 pm, Tom Brinkman wrote: On Sunday January 26 2003 09:11 am, Anne Wilson wrote: Tom - I'm not doubting you, and I'll certainly keep this post for reference, but how is that affected by orientation? Why would it run longer if on its side? Anne Heat rises : Seriously, if he's runnin it on it's side, the heat rises out of the case better, maybe?. A table fan blowin into an upright case would probly be better tho. In any event, 78C from a probe is WAY TOO high for an Athlon. Another posssible explaination is if he's usin a heatsink that is heavier than AMD recommends. These heavy heatsinks don't sit squarely on the cpu's die when the case is upright and gravity is pullin 'em down. Specially if the spring clip tension is to low. Which is why AMD specs a maximum weight (200 or 300 grams IIRC) and retention clip tensions. Anyhow, all their recommended heatsinks fall within this weight requirement. A lot of the super duper fancy expensive one, are also overweight. Specially the copper ones. Even if the cause is somethin else, anything over low 60C's (max, under extreme load) for an Athlon is intolerable, an must be sorted out, sooner the better if it's not already too late. Thanks for the explanation. Yes, my Athlon 900 runs around 50C, 24x7. I do worry about the weight of current heatsinks and fans - to say nothing of the fact that I have a heart attack every time I have to try to deal with those clips :). Are there specialist fans that are lighter weight? Anne -- Registered Linux User No.293302 Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] OT Hardware weirdness 2
On Sun, January 26 2003 11:28 am, Anne Wilson wrote: *snip* Thanks for the explanation. Yes, my Athlon 900 runs around 50C, 24x7. I do worry about the weight of current heatsinks and fans - to say nothing of the fact that I have a heart attack every time I have to try to deal with those clips :). Are there specialist fans that are lighter weight? And see.. this is why I spent the extra 20 bucks and bought a Pentium IV 1.6, instead of the Athlon 1800 (which runs at 1400mhz I think) -- Chuck Burns, Jr [EMAIL PROTECTED] ---==--- To err is humor. Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] OT Hardware weirdness 2
On Sunday 26 Jan 2003 5:47 pm, Chuck Burns wrote: On Sun, January 26 2003 11:28 am, Anne Wilson wrote: *snip* Thanks for the explanation. Yes, my Athlon 900 runs around 50C, 24x7. I do worry about the weight of current heatsinks and fans - to say nothing of the fact that I have a heart attack every time I have to try to deal with those clips :). Are there specialist fans that are lighter weight? And see.. this is why I spent the extra 20 bucks and bought a Pentium IV 1.6, instead of the Athlon 1800 (which runs at 1400mhz I think) No, I don't see. Why? Anne -- Registered Linux User No.293302 Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] OT Hardware weirdness 2
1/26/03 10:24:16 AM, Paul [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In reply to g's mail, d.d. Sun, 26 Jan 2003 15:05:48 +: from your replies, it is now to decide if problems is with mainboard or if you have a harddrive problem. with box in normal upright position, put harddrive on it's side. does system stay up? Yup, no problem. I am of course NOT going to twiddle the running drives around, but they function wonderfully either on the side or straight up. So it is the mobo, as Marc and et also already suspected. Too bad. This ASUS board was pricey. But then, even good things can die an early death. If it is a cracked trace on the mobo dont call it beyond repair yet. It could be a problem that can be repaired by caveman technology. If you can discover what way the board needs to be flexed or bent to keep it working maybe you can do something as simple as install a mechanical device in the case to push or pull it in the correct direction. I once had a rather expensive shortwave receiver with similar problems and I could not find the problem after several hours of troubleshooting. I ended up unscrewing the circuit board and sticking a cigarette butt under the board and screwing it back down this flexed the board enough to make it work. This was by no means a good professional repair but it did continue to reliably work for many years. I would give it a try, you got nothing to loose and if you can make it work well for a couple of years what more do you need. by then you will probably be ready to upgrade. I have also seen another problem similar to this once in a computer try having a long hard look at the electrolitic capactiors near the cpu. look for bulged tops and or wiggle them a bit to see if one has become loose. I have seen the the leads actually pill loose from the bottom of this type of capacttor before and do some odd things. Just a long shot Marc Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] OT Hardware weirdness 2
On Sun, January 26 2003 11:49 am, Anne Wilson wrote: *snip* Thanks for the explanation. Yes, my Athlon 900 runs around 50C, 24x7. I do worry about the weight of current heatsinks and fans - to say nothing of the fact that I have a heart attack every time I have to try to deal with those clips :). Are there specialist fans that are lighter weight? And see.. this is why I spent the extra 20 bucks and bought a Pentium IV 1.6, instead of the Athlon 1800 (which runs at 1400mhz I think) No, I don't see. Why? Anne Well.. for starters, P4's have MUCH better thermal resistance, not to mention a thermal diode that can regulate the core CPU temperature if the fan happens to fail, or if the heatsink happens to fall off.. Many 3rd party tests have shown that a P4 cpu can run even without a heatsink, with no damage to the CPU at all. It slows down if it detects temperature overload, and prevents the core temp. from reaching critical levels.. (Not to mention the 400-533mhz cache speeds, compared to athlon's measly 200mhz.. :p) -- Chuck Burns, Jr [EMAIL PROTECTED] ---==--- You will pass away very quickly. Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] OT Hardware weirdness 2
On Sunday 26 January 2003 06:06 pm, Chuck Burns wrote: Well.. for starters, P4's have MUCH better thermal resistance, not to mention a thermal diode that can regulate the core CPU temperature if the fan happens to fail, or if the heatsink happens to fall off.. Many 3rd party tests have shown that a P4 cpu can run even without a heatsink, with no damage to the CPU at all. It slows down if it detects temperature overload, and prevents the core temp. from reaching critical levels.. (Not to mention the 400-533mhz cache speeds, compared to athlon's measly 200mhz.. :p) Thats interesting. I always thought that AMDs' chips were better performers at the same speed rangefrom what I've read. (but I'm no expert). -- /\ Dark Lord \/ Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] OT Hardware weirdness 2
In reply to Anne's mail, d.d. Sun, 26 Jan 2003 17:49:45 +: And see.. this is why I spent the extra 20 bucks and bought a Pentium IV 1.6, instead of the Athlon 1800 (which runs at 1400mhz I think) No, I don't see. Why? I guess these do not suffer from 'overweight problems' of fans. ;) Paul -- Never lend books -- nobody ever returns them; the only books I have in my library are those which people have lent me. -Anatole France http://nlpagan.net - Linux by Mandrake - Sylpheed by Hiro Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] OT Hardware weirdness 2
On Sun, January 26 2003 5:12 pm, Ronald J. Hall wrote: *snip* Thats interesting. I always thought that AMDs' chips were better performers at the same speed rangefrom what I've read. (but I'm no expert). Really dependant upon what your doing, AMD's ARE better performance/mhz usually.. but.. also at the cost of stability. When I was a technician at a local pc service center, I can't even begin to tell you about the compatibility issues between motherboards and video cards. One guy had a GF4 Ti 4400.. and a AMD XP1800+.. in a Soyo board.. and the card refused to work in anything having to do with 3D.. He bought the card from us, and swore up and down the card was faulty... I put the card into my test system. (A P3 500) and installed several games that he'd brought, saying the card locked up in em.. and it ran beautifully... no problems.. took the ATI Rage128 that I had in the test system.. put it into the Xp1800.. and *IT* ran beautifully.. with no problems, whatsoever... now, for the kicker.. we underclocked his 1800 (which was clocked to 1600mhz, per AMD's settings...) to 1500mhz clockspeed (which the board then recognized the CPU as a XP 1699 (or something like that..) and the GF4 ran without a hitch.. So.. I assumed a heat problem.. not true... the CPU wasn't even hitting 110F (or about 45C) according the motherboard's system diags.. and this was AFTER running some 'cpu burn' tests that output gibberish into each register, causing the CPU to peg 100% usage for like 20 minutes.. -- Chuck Burns, Jr [EMAIL PROTECTED] ---==--- The time was the 19th of May, 1780. The place was Hartford, Connecticut. The day has gone down in New England history as a terrible foretaste of Judgement Day. For at noon the skies turned from blue to grey and by mid-afternoon had blackened over so densely that, in that religious age, men fell on their knees and begged a final blessing before the end came. The Connecticut House of Representatives was in session. And, as some of the men fell down and others clamored for an immediate adjournment, the Speaker of the House, one Col. Davenport, came to his feet. He silenced them and said these words: The day of judgment is either approaching or it is not. If it is not, there is no cause for adjournment. If it is, I choose to be found doing my duty. I wish therefore that candles may be brought. -- Alistair Cooke Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] OT Hardware weirdness 2
On Sun, January 26 2003 1:03 pm, Paul wrote: *snip* I guess these do not suffer from 'overweight problems' of fans. ;) Paul No, it's because P4's don't overheat.. period. They throttle their clock speed, to reduce heat. if they detect overheating, so where thermal management on an Athlon means protecting the cpu from itself, thermal management on a Pentium IV just keeps the CPU from slowing down.. -- Chuck Burns, Jr [EMAIL PROTECTED] ---==--- To invent, you need a good imagination and a pile of junk. -- Thomas Edison Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] OT Hardware weirdness 2
On Sunday January 26 2003 05:12 pm, Ronald J. Hall wrote: On Sunday 26 January 2003 06:06 pm, Chuck Burns wrote: prevents the core temp. from reaching critical levels.. (Not to mention the 400-533mhz cache speeds, compared to athlon's measly 200mhz.. :p) Thats interesting. I always thought that AMDs' chips were better performers at the same speed rangefrom what I've read. (but I'm no expert). Not so, Athlons are much better performers at the same clock speed ;) Athlons in the 1.6g range out perform P4's of the 2+ ghz variety, at less cost. It's not so much that AMD's are so great, it's more like P4's and even more so, the available motherboard chipsets for them suck really big time. Intel has used M$ type tatics to crush competition, but has yet to produce any decent i8whatever chipsets. 400-533mhz is the same type of PR ballyhoo both manufacturers use for those that fall for it. And it's not cache speeds, its FSB speeds multiplied by marketing smoke'n mirrors. FSB for all but the very *most recent cpu's is 133mhz. AMD pretends they double this to 266. Intels goes off the charts with claims of 3 and 4 times multiplication by magic (*most recent being 166 mhz FSB, either vendor. In that case AMD claims 333mhz, 2x 166). 'Sides, front side bus speeds aren't dictated by the cpu, they're set by the (motherboard's) chipsets. And on either system, everything STILL has to go thru the old 33mhz PCI bus anyhow. So much for '533mhz cpu' PR B$. AMD's worst short fall IMO, an I beleive it's why they're not acceptable on the server or even laptop markets is the lack of an **internal diode to report/regulate heat. Intels' have had this since early Pentiums. OTOH, it's a recent Intel copout also. As some of you have said, the diode in new Intels allows the cpu to slow down, even shutdown to avoid overheating. In the case of laptops, avoid overheating and conserve power. So just when you need power, the cpu kneels down, badly ;( Which is another reason P4's suck. An why somebody posted recently that a 40 minute kernel compile took 80 minutes on their new 1.6 gig P4 laptop. (**OK, the newer Athlon XP's have a rudimentary internal diode implemtation, but it's almost a year now, with no decent motherboard support from any vendor. Asus and Gigabyte have tried, most others haven't.) A better marketing approach, judging by popularity, seems to be the worst old past junk. VIA buys up failed Cyrix crap for practically nothin, and PR's it sucessfully as 'silent' and 'fanless' (VIA C3's, the 'C' stands for Cyrix, 3rd attempt). PR claims of 800mhz produce benches an ancient K6-300 could beat hands down. Which BTW can also be run silent and fanless on junk motherboards an power supplies. At least the K6 was an i586 cpu, the C3's are a 586/486 mix. So the buyer has choice ; For me, I'm just nursin my tired ol' overclocked Tbird 1.4/VIA (1.5ghz, out performs a 1.8g/i8xx P4) along till it dies. It's startin to run hotter lately ;( Maybe 64 bit desktop cpu's will be the rage by then ;) Had a P3-450 oc'd to 600 on a Intel BX chipset, before. The hardware people are willin to buy's been goin down hill since ... includin me -- Tom Brinkman Corpus Christi, Texas Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
[newbie] OT Hardware weirdness 2
Okay... I tried every trick in the book (and outside of it). And it is still a riddle. I just about took the entire machine apart again, put it back together with basically just the video card and the mainboard. No CDRom, no soundcard, no nothing. Standing upright it collapses within 15 minutes. Most of the time I only had to wait 1 or 2 minutes, which helped speed up the experiments. *wry grin* I tried every card combination, took the power supply apart (nothing strange in there), and still I come up with the same thing. At the moment the PC is on its side again and it runs. Since 5 minutes now, but I am confident that it will stay up. I am at my witt's end with this. Thanks for all the help and suggestions. I have the impression that this PC will remain on its side for the rest of its life, unless someone can come up with the ultimate solution. I just hope I can burn legible CD's with this setup, for backup reasons. Paul Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] OT Hardware weirdness 2
On Saturday 25 Jan 2003 8:00 pm, wrote: Okay... I tried every trick in the book (and outside of it). And it is still a riddle. I just about took the entire machine apart again, put it back together with basically just the video card and the mainboard. No CDRom, no soundcard, no nothing. Standing upright it collapses within 15 minutes. Most of the time I only had to wait 1 or 2 minutes, which helped speed up the experiments. *wry grin* I tried every card combination, took the power supply apart (nothing strange in there), and still I come up with the same thing. At the moment the PC is on its side again and it runs. Since 5 minutes now, but I am confident that it will stay up. I am at my witt's end with this. Thanks for all the help and suggestions. I have the impression that this PC will remain on its side for the rest of its life, unless someone can come up with the ultimate solution. I just hope I can burn legible CD's with this setup, for backup reasons. There's only one solution, then. Pretend your tower was a desktop all along :) Anne -- Registered Linux User No.293302 Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] OT Hardware weirdness 2
In reply to Anne's mail, d.d. Sat, 25 Jan 2003 20:10:26 +: There's only one solution, then. Pretend your tower was a desktop all along :) Woohahahahaa!!! It is a tower with a bad back! ;) Thanks for the grin. Paul -- The more we live by our intellect, the less we understand the meaning of life. -Leo Tolstoy http://nlpagan.net - Linux by Mandrake - Sylpheed by Hiro Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] OT Hardware weirdness 2
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: moment the PC is on its side again and it runs. Since 5 minutes now, but I am confident that it will stay up. knowledge of your back broke desktop/tower contents would be helpful. if it is still running, i would suggest 3 possible problems to go after first. #1 = power supply: does fan stop? do you lose all voltages? #2 = heat: are you testing with covers on or off? do you have good air circulation? cpu have correct heat sink and fan? is memory over heating? does mainboard have heat sensors? #3 = harddisk: is drive new? if used, was it previously mounted flat or on side? if drive is flat and stops, flip upside down, still run? if drive on side and stops, flip to other side, still run? if drive is flat and stops, turn to side, still run? if drive on side and stops, turn to flat, still run? peace out. tc,hago. g . -- think green... save a tree, save a life, save time, save bandwidth, save storage. send email... text/plain - disable pgp/gpg/geek code attachments =+= if you are proud to be an american, then buy made in america. Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] OT Hardware weirdness 2
On Sun, 2003-01-26 at 11:56, g wrote: [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: moment the PC is on its side again and it runs. Since 5 minutes now, but I am confident that it will stay up. knowledge of your back broke desktop/tower contents would be helpful. if it is still running, i would suggest 3 possible problems to go after first. #1 = power supply: does fan stop? do you lose all voltages? #2 = heat: are you testing with covers on or off? do you have good air circulation? cpu have correct heat sink and fan? is memory over heating? does mainboard have heat sensors? #3 = harddisk: is drive new? if used, was it previously mounted flat or on side? if drive is flat and stops, flip upside down, still run? if drive on side and stops, flip to other side, still run? if drive is flat and stops, turn to side, still run? if drive on side and stops, turn to flat, still run? What if there is a mercury switch in either the PSU or somewhere within the casing itself that would cause this? -- Sun, 26 Jan 2003 12:20:00 +1100 12:20pm up 9 days, 22:03, 4 users, load average: 0.19, 0.17, 0.08 -- |____ | kuhn media australia| | / ,, /| |'-. | http://kma.0catch.com | | .\__/ || | | |=| | _ / `._ \|_|_.-' | stephen kuhn| | | / \__.`=._) (_ | email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] | | |/ ._/ || | email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]| | |'. `\ | | |icq: 5483808 | | ;/ / | | | | | smk ) /_/| |.---.| | mobile: 0410-728-389| | ' `-`' | Berkeley, New South Wales, AU | -- linux user:267497 * RH 8.0 * PC/Mac/Linux/Networking/Consulting -- And if you wonder, What I am doing, As I am heading for the sink. I am spitting out all the bitterness, Along with half of my last drink. Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] OT Hardware weirdness 2
In reply to g's mail, d.d. Sun, 26 Jan 2003 00:56:31 +: knowledge of your back broke desktop/tower contents would be helpful. if it is still running, i would suggest 3 possible problems to go after first. #1 = power supply: does fan stop? No, it keeps going. do you lose all voltages? No. There is still power on the mainboard led and the leds of the network cards. #2 = heat: are you testing with covers on or off? Both. Same result. do you have good air circulation? cpu have correct heat sink and fan? Yes and yes. is memory over heating? No, it is not. I cannot imagine that it does. I can leave the PC off for 2 hours, which should be enough to cool off most parts. When I switch the PC on in the upright position (and refrain from smoking ;) it stops within 2 minutes. The hybernate led starts blinking and that's it. Which really is weird, since I have the BIOS set to never go into hybernate. does mainboard have heat sensors? Yes, they both show on LM Sensors (through Gkrellm). The CPU (Athlon 1200) shows 78C (149F) and something else shows 29.2C (75.5F). I am not sure if I set the multiplier readings in Gkrellm correctly, but this is what I also could see (plus or minus a few degrees) when then machine was still upright. So no change there. #3 = harddisk: is drive new? if used, was it previously mounted flat or on side? The drives (2 x 30Gb ata100) came with the system. It is a little over 1.5 years old now. The drives previously were mounted flat, now they are on the side. if drive is flat and stops, flip upside down, still run? if drive on side and stops, flip to other side, still run? if drive is flat and stops, turn to side, still run? if drive on side and stops, turn to flat, still run? I'd have to try these out sometime. I'll let you know. Thanks for the ideas. Paul think green... save a tree, save a life, save time, save bandwidth, save storage. send email... text/plain - disable pgp/gpg/geek code attachments I like this!!! :-) -- Never lend books -- nobody ever returns them; the only books I have in my library are those which people have lent me. -Anatole France http://nlpagan.net - Linux by Mandrake - Sylpheed by Hiro Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] OT Hardware weirdness 2
In reply to Stephen's mail, d.d. 26 Jan 2003 12:21:17 +1100: What if there is a mercury switch in either the PSU or somewhere within the casing itself that would cause this? I have been thinking about this also, but I have not been able to find a switch like that. More and more I feel that this is a faulty contact/connector or something. I booted from a floppy and carefully started fiddling with the power cables to try and track a broken/nearly broken one. No luck there either. (Uptime now, PC still on the side, is 11.33 hours...) Paul -- Never lend books -- nobody ever returns them; the only books I have in my library are those which people have lent me. -Anatole France http://nlpagan.net - Linux by Mandrake - Sylpheed by Hiro Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
