RE: [newbie] just a comment
There is nothing unique about this community. Just about any special interest group acts the same way. If I join an owners club for my car, install some customisation and take it to rallys, I would find exactly the same sort of community. But if I break down one day and expect someone to help me just because they have the same model of car, it just isn't going to happen. The person I stop isn't a member of my community just because they have the same sort of car. Community membership involves a willingness to learn and put the work in. I suppose it feels good to help someone improve themselves, so people will do it. It feels crap to slave away for someone who doesn't know what you are doing and cares less, so people will not do it. Also, in a community like this, you can assume that the person asking for the help today is willing to be giving it tomorrow. There is a totally different feel in an interchange of information that grows the community, from a tech-support situation that leaches off it. Other similar communities I have known: Amateur Radio Model-making Computer clubs in the early 80's OTThere are many models of how this works. Universal egosim is one of them, probably not a very useful one. But this is not the place to discuss it. Feel free to mail me directly./OT -- Richard Urwin, Private Confirmed as a crazy system administrator (NAG p348) This email has been scanned for all viruses by the MessageLabs SkyScan service. For more information on a proactive anti-virus service working around the clock, around the globe, visit http://www.messagelabs.com Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
RE: [riu] Re: [newbie] just a comment [WAY OT now]
A somewhat topical quote of a misquote: Do not meddle in the affairs of primates; for they are subtle and quick to anger. -- Richard Urwin, Private Confirmed as a crazy system administrator (NAG p348) This email has been scanned for all viruses by the MessageLabs SkyScan service. For more information on a proactive anti-virus service working around the clock, around the globe, visit http://www.messagelabs.com Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] just a comment [WAY OT now]
On Fri, 2002-12-13 at 19:13, Vasiliy Boulytchev wrote: how bored are we... im loving this though, keep going. Since you insist... :) Isn't it funny the amount of attention OT gets? I don't know about others, but I know why I reply to this. I'm such a total ignoramus of all things Linux, but hooked to the list and learning, that when I see a theme I actually have an opinion on, I go for it. Someone asked what makes this sort of list tick, and even I can have an opinion on such matters. This being also the first mailing list I've ever been on, and from not very long at that, I had no previous experience of what they meant by flame. Holy shit. So after reading some replies directed at me, and then re-reading the pretty innocent (honestly) posts that triggered them, I have decided to never again post OT, ever (this is an exeption, hehe, never believe my hyperboles). I take a hint, and if I feel philosophical I'll just go to an appropriate place, or shut up. Just one concrete answer to one concrete question: no, english is not my mother tongue. You can tell by the tortured syntax, I guess, though it disappoints me that it should be so apparent. Oh well. Meliton. P.S. Has anybody heard of Godwin's Law? Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] just a comment [WAY OT now]
Meliton wrote: Someone asked what makes this sort of list tick, and even I can have an opinion on such matters. This being also the first mailing list I've ever been on, and from not very long at that, I had no previous experience of what they meant by flame. Holy shit. As flames go, the stuff you see on this list is nothing - this is actually a pretty friendly and polite list, which is one reason I'm still subscribed to it. Real classic flaming is stuff like BWAHAHAHAHAHAH U sux donkey balls U use winbloze so u obvouisly don't kno shit. GET OFFF THIS LIST YOU MORON!! Sir Robin -- Do unto others what you would like others to do unto you. And have fun doing it. - Linus Torvalds Robin Turner IDMYO, Bilkent University Ankara 06533 Turkey www.bilkent.edu.tr/~robin Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] just a comment [WAY OT now]
On Sat, 2002-12-14 at 07:40, Robin Turner wrote: As flames go, the stuff you see on this list is nothing - this is actually a pretty friendly and polite list, which is one reason I'm still subscribed to it. Real classic flaming is stuff like BWAHAHAHAHAHAH U sux donkey balls U use winbloze so u obvouisly don't kno shit. GET OFFF THIS LIST YOU MORON!! Sir Robin I dunno mate...that's subtle flaming...REAL flaming comes with tact, intellect, witty yet patronizing barbs - as well as outside attacks...not that I pursue such, but it does come into play when politics and religion are concerned...especially with my overly defensive culturally myopic ex-countrymen... -- Sat Dec 14 08:40:00 EST 2002 8:40am up 3 days, 1:02, 5 users, load average: 0.24, 0.12, 0.11 .o0 linux user:267497 0o. |____ | kühn media australia | / \ /| |'-. | http://kma.0catch.com | .\__/ || | | | | _ / `._ \|_|_.-' | stephen kühn | | / \__.`=._) (_ | email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] | |/ ._/ || | email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] | |'. `\ | | |icq: 5483808 | ;/ / | | | | smk ) /_/| |.---.| | mobile: 0410-728-389 | ' `-`' | Berkeley, New South Wales, AU Coralament*Best Grötens*Liebe Grüße*Best Regards*Elkorajn Salutojn A failure will not appear until a unit has passed final inspection. Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] just a comment [WAY OT now]
At 10:06 PM 12/13/2002 +0100, you wrote: On Fri, 2002-12-13 at 19:13, Vasiliy Boulytchev wrote: how bored are we... im loving this though, keep going. Since you insist... :) Someone asked what makes this sort of list tick, and even I can have an opinion on such matters. This being also the first mailing list I've ever been on, and from not very long at that, I had no previous experience of what they meant by flame. Holy shit. If I get flamed for saying this, so be it. I'm used to it. Meliton, jsut ignore the ppl who flame ya. They're just ppl who have their sphincters in a knot. Hell with em. Its a list, yes. Its public yes. But sometimes we need threads like this just to lighten up a little for a while. And who wants to be bored silly by just tech questions answers all the time? *shrugs* not me thats for sure. Altho I must say too to keep in mind ppl who are metered on their service. Please cut snip posts to a reasonable size for those ppl. (This last bit is info for those new to the list only, as it has been addressed before.) - FemmeFatale Good Decisions You boss Made: We'll do as you suggest and go with Linux. I've always liked that character from Peanuts. - Source: Dilbert Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] just a comment [WAY OT now]
On Sat, 2002-12-14 at 00:39, FemmeFatale wrote: Meliton, jsut ignore the ppl who flame ya. They're just ppl who have their sphincters in a knot. Hell with em. Its a list, yes. Its public yes. But sometimes we need threads like this just to lighten up a little for a while. And who wants to be bored silly by just tech questions answers all the time? *shrugs* not me thats for sure. Thanks. Yeah, I had a bad moment there when I saw the reactions. It was totally unexpected, that's all. Feeling more relaxed now. I know I said I wouldn't do this any more but, to paraphrase Larkin, I misjudged myself. Or lied. Meliton. Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] just a comment [WAY OT now]
On Friday 13 December 2002 03:40 pm, Robin Turner wrote: As flames go, the stuff you see on this list is nothing - this is actually a pretty friendly and polite list, which is one reason I'm still subscribed to it. Real classic flaming is stuff like BWAHAHAHAHAHAH U sux donkey balls U use winbloze so u obvouisly don't kno shit. GET OFFF THIS LIST YOU MORON!! Sir Robin Sir Robin: May I have your permission to use the above as a signature? (I've heard about Turkish prisons; not a good venue to be the defendant in an IP lawsuit.) -- cmg Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] just a comment [WAY OT now]
Carroll Grigsby wrote: On Friday 13 December 2002 03:40 pm, Robin Turner wrote: As flames go, the stuff you see on this list is nothing - this is actually a pretty friendly and polite list, which is one reason I'm still subscribed to it. Real classic flaming is stuff like BWAHAHAHAHAHAH U sux donkey balls U use winbloze so u obvouisly don't kno shit. GET OFFF THIS LIST YOU MORON!! Sir Robin Sir Robin: May I have your permission to use the above as a signature? (I've heard about Turkish prisons; not a good venue to be the defendant in an IP lawsuit.) -- cmg You want to use that as a sig??! Go ahead. BTW, Turkish prisons are generally quite comfortable. Overcrowded and lacking in facilities, but nothing like Midnight Express at all. Sir Robin -- Do unto others what you would like others to do unto you. And have fun doing it. - Linus Torvalds Robin Turner IDMYO, Bilkent University Ankara 06533 Turkey www.bilkent.edu.tr/~robin Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] just a comment
On Wed, 2002-12-11 at 22:58, Dennis Myers wrote: On Wednesday 11 December 2002 09:38 pm, Ray Henry wrote: I think it's grate that every on can help other Linux user. Unlike Windows users Linux users stick to grate I have a theory on that... :) My great theory is that there are so many levels in which one can get involved in Linux that those using it are willing to spend time with the newbies because one day, they may venture into a realm that is out of their depth, and need help themselves :) OK, flame away! G That may be part of it, but I believe that the people who venture in to linux have open minds and a belief that the world is bad enough as it is so maybe we can make it better with the OSS. Turn no one away, help all that we can. This is a network of givers not greeders. Bad english, bad english. Hehe. You get my meaning? : ) -- Dennis M. linux user # 180842 Open minds, perhaps. But in my opinion the driving force behind the amazing support one gets on Linux is fundamentally egoistic: it feels good to help someone out, specially when they ask nicely. It also implies a touch of vanity, not as in posing, rather an intimate thing, the satisfaction of knowing oneself useful. Don't get me wrong on egoism, I'm all in favour. It's the only natural thing, we all act in our own interests. Volunteers who go off to poor countries to help people are just being egoistic, in my view, and that doesn't make them bad people. Lets all keep at it, this egoism thing rocks. Meliton. Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
RE: [newbie] just a comment
My own personal reason is picking up a hell of a lot of knowledge just by reading the posts in area's I have never explored before or even knew about as well as helping out others. I am sure there are others out there doing the same. :) -Original Message- From: Meliton [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, December 12, 2002 8:03 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [newbie] just a comment On Wed, 2002-12-11 at 22:58, Dennis Myers wrote: On Wednesday 11 December 2002 09:38 pm, Ray Henry wrote: I think it's grate that every on can help other Linux user. Unlike Windows users Linux users stick to grate I have a theory on that... :) My great theory is that there are so many levels in which one can get involved in Linux that those using it are willing to spend time with the newbies because one day, they may venture into a realm that is out of their depth, and need help themselves :) OK, flame away! G That may be part of it, but I believe that the people who venture in to linux have open minds and a belief that the world is bad enough as it is so maybe we can make it better with the OSS. Turn no one away, help all that we can. This is a network of givers not greeders. Bad english, bad english. Hehe. You get my meaning? : ) -- Dennis M. linux user # 180842 Open minds, perhaps. But in my opinion the driving force behind the amazing support one gets on Linux is fundamentally egoistic: it feels good to help someone out, specially when they ask nicely. It also implies a touch of vanity, not as in posing, rather an intimate thing, the satisfaction of knowing oneself useful. Don't get me wrong on egoism, I'm all in favour. It's the only natural thing, we all act in our own interests. Volunteers who go off to poor countries to help people are just being egoistic, in my view, and that doesn't make them bad people. Lets all keep at it, this egoism thing rocks. Meliton. -+-+-+-+-+-+-+- Business Computer Projects - Disclaimer -+-+-+-+-+-+-+- This message, and any associated attachment is confidential. If you have received it in error, please delete it from your system, do not use or disclose the information in any way, and notify either Tony S. Sykes or the postmaster mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] immediately. The contents of this message may contain personal views which are not necessarily the views of Business Computer Projects Ltd., unless specifically stated. Whilst every effort has been made to ensure that emails and their attachments are virus free, it is the responsibility of the recipient(s) to verify the integrity of such emails. Business Computer Projects Ltd BCP House 151 Charles Street Stockport Cheshire SK1 3JY Tel: +44 (0)161 355-3000 Fax: +44 (0)161 355-3001 Web: http://www.bcpsoftware.com http://www.bcpsoftware.com/ Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] just a comment
On December 12, 2002 01:02 am, Meliton wrote: snip Open minds, perhaps. But in my opinion the driving force behind the amazing support one gets on Linux is fundamentally egoistic: it feels good to help someone out, specially when they ask nicely. It also implies a touch of vanity, not as in posing, rather an intimate thing, the satisfaction of knowing oneself useful. Don't get me wrong on egoism, I'm all in favour. It's the only natural thing, we all act in our own interests. Volunteers who go off to poor countries to help people are just being egoistic, in my view, and that doesn't make them bad people. Lets all keep at it, this egoism thing rocks. Meliton. [rant alert] Subjective observations. Caveat: Since I know myself so well and have analyzed who and what I am to an absurd degree; nearly any question I pose here is rhetorical, _for me._ The answers are readily apparent from my perspective. You'll have to answer any you may find intriguing for yourself. I do as much as I can to help others with installing, and using, Open Source Software, simply because I feel an obligation. To myself. I've received help from the community since I became curious about GNU/Linux, that curiosity was often partially satisfied by answers from people on mailing lists and help forum web sites. Even the RTFM/STFW style answer usually told me something I needed to know. However those answers never quite felt sufficient since, due to personal time constraints, or other factors, others may not have been able to sort through thousands of pages of manuals or web 'how-to pages'; or may just require a more finely directed as to *what* to read. Taking the arrogance out of the elitist style answers above comes closer to meeting my self imposed obligation to try to share knowledge. Does this fit your mold of egoism and it's resultant behaviors? Or is egoism as an answer appearing as to flip, to simplistic to fit the record? Installations aren't always permanent among a few of the friends and acquaintances that I've helped. Repetitious yes. Permanent? The reasons are myriad, but the underlying theme nearly always has been in the form of; but I didn't have to know how Windows does this. It's too hard. My answer is almost always; Does any release of Windows allow secure multi-user/multi-tasking computing _when it's running as a default installation_? I think everyone here knows that answer. Other favorite answers; If it's so hard how can I run without Windows? Which of the last 10 virii/trojans/worms affected your computer and/or did you have to re-install and have you lost data and time because of it? These are very rare occurrences in Open Source Operating System environments simply because the developers don't expect that you stay ignorant as to what happens when you push that power on button. In fact they almost _demand_ that you _not_ remain uninformed. By default GNU/Linux seems to make the assumption that you're willing and able to learn at least a few basic facts. The longer the development process continues, and the more people that switch, the fewer the 'basics' that are required just to be a user. Windows developers, and the Microsoft Corporation, actually want you to stay 'stuck on stupid' for life. It's safer for them. Who benefits? In light of the above; and my sense of obligation to pass on the little I've learned, does it benefit *me,* primarily through feeling good about it, or is it self preservation to help to teach others to break this particular trap? This thing that was started to facilitate military communication (the internet) has been deeded to us all for our use. Does it not seem therefore that we all have an obligation to learn to use it safely and properly, and to protect the right to use it freely? Is it not a 'battlefield' for freedom? Of expression, ideas, _knowledge_? Information exchange without threat of censorship or repression? Do we not want to control our own lives and the ability to communicate as _we_ choose? Therefore my sense of obligation. What of your egoism now? [\rant alert] Sorry about that, but it seems someone pushed one of my buttons. :-) Regards; -- Charlie Edmonton,AB,Canada Registered user 244963 at http://counter.li.org The person you rejected yesterday could make you happy, if you say yes. Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] just a comment
On Thu, 2002-12-12 at 20:31, Charlie wrote: On December 12, 2002 01:02 am, Meliton wrote: snip Open minds, perhaps. But in my opinion the driving force behind the amazing support one gets on Linux is fundamentally egoistic: it feels good to help someone out, specially when they ask nicely. It also implies a touch of vanity, not as in posing, rather an intimate thing, the satisfaction of knowing oneself useful. Don't get me wrong on egoism, I'm all in favour. It's the only natural thing, we all act in our own interests. Volunteers who go off to poor countries to help people are just being egoistic, in my view, and that doesn't make them bad people. Lets all keep at it, this egoism thing rocks. Meliton. [rant alert] Subjective observations. Caveat: Since I know myself so well and have analyzed who and what I am to an absurd degree; nearly any question I pose here is rhetorical, _for me._ The answers are readily apparent from my perspective. You'll have to answer any you may find intriguing for yourself. I do as much as I can to help others with installing, and using, Open Source Software, simply because I feel an obligation. To myself. I've received help from the community since I became curious about GNU/Linux, that curiosity was often partially satisfied by answers from people on mailing lists and help forum web sites. Even the RTFM/STFW style answer usually told me something I needed to know. However those answers never quite felt sufficient since, due to personal time constraints, or other factors, others may not have been able to sort through thousands of pages of manuals or web 'how-to pages'; or may just require a more finely directed as to *what* to read. Taking the arrogance out of the elitist style answers above comes closer to meeting my self imposed obligation to try to share knowledge. Does this fit your mold of egoism and it's resultant behaviors? Yes it does. Or is egoism as an answer appearing as to flip, to simplistic to fit the record? Egoism is just a word, I use it a lot because it shocks some people into not lying to themselves. Too few people. And I do believe that we all act strictly according to our interests, though not as rational beings (which we are NOT). Those interests may be (often are) hidden from us, and we often act in ways that harm us (drugs...) or seem altruistic (sharing your knowledge of Linux ;). But absolutely every act of every human being in History, including all the moving ones of self-sacrifice, are for the actor's benefit. I'm not being cynical here. Installations aren't always permanent among a few of the friends and acquaintances that I've helped. Repetitious yes. Permanent? The reasons are myriad, but the underlying theme nearly always has been in the form of; but I didn't have to know how Windows does this. It's too hard. My answer is almost always; Does any release of Windows allow secure multi-user/multi-tasking computing _when it's running as a default installation_? I think everyone here knows that answer. Other favorite answers; If it's so hard how can I run without Windows? Which of the last 10 virii/trojans/worms affected your computer and/or did you have to re-install and have you lost data and time because of it? These are very rare occurrences in Open Source Operating System environments simply because the developers don't expect that you stay ignorant as to what happens when you push that power on button. In fact they almost _demand_ that you _not_ remain uninformed. By default GNU/Linux seems to make the assumption that you're willing and able to learn at least a few basic facts. The longer the development process continues, and the more people that switch, the fewer the 'basics' that are required just to be a user. Windows developers, and the Microsoft Corporation, actually want you to stay 'stuck on stupid' for life. It's safer for them. Who benefits? In light of the above; and my sense of obligation to pass on the little I've learned, does it benefit *me,* primarily through feeling good about it, or is it self preservation to help to teach others to break this particular trap? Wether your primary reason is feeling good about it or self preservation, I'm not to know. But I'm glad to see that you agree with me. This thing that was started to facilitate military communication (the internet) has been deeded to us all for our use. Does it not seem therefore that we all have an obligation to learn to use it safely and properly, and to protect the right to use it freely? Is it not a 'battlefield' for freedom? Of expression, ideas, _knowledge_? Information exchange without threat of censorship or repression? Do we not want to control our own lives and the ability to communicate as _we_ choose? Therefore my sense of obligation. What of your egoism now? Hello? [\rant alert]
Re: [newbie] just a comment
Meliton wrote: On Thu, 2002-12-12 at 20:31, Charlie wrote: [snip] Or is egoism as an answer appearing as to flip, to simplistic to fit the record? Egoism is just a word, I use it a lot because it shocks some people into not lying to themselves. Too few people. And I do believe that we all act strictly according to our interests, though not as rational beings (which we are NOT). Those interests may be (often are) hidden from us, and we often act in ways that harm us (drugs...) or seem altruistic (sharing your knowledge of Linux ;). But absolutely every act of every human being in History, including all the moving ones of self-sacrifice, are for the actor's benefit. I'm not being cynical here. How can you irrationally act in your own interests? You seem to equate interests with benefits with desires, which is certainly a tenable position, and has the virtue of simplicity, but then may include genuinely altruistic behaviour - if I desire to help people more than I desire to act on what an econmist would class as my interests, I will do so, and in your terms, I am acting in my interests. Sir Robin Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
RE: [newbie] just a comment
pardon me, but what has this to do about linux?? Its sad, the same reason we help people is often the same reason that we end up in intellectual pissing matches like this... a feeling of superiority so we end up in discussions using bigger and bigger words.. and achiving nothing... Its pointless and useless... why bother??? lets all be friends and concentrate on spreading the linux word shall we? rgds Frank -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Robin Turner Sent: Friday, 13 December 2002 3:51 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [newbie] just a comment Meliton wrote: On Thu, 2002-12-12 at 20:31, Charlie wrote: [snip] Or is egoism as an answer appearing as to flip, to simplistic to fit the record? Egoism is just a word, I use it a lot because it shocks some people into not lying to themselves. Too few people. And I do believe that we all act strictly according to our interests, though not as rational beings (which we are NOT). Those interests may be (often are) hidden from us, and we often act in ways that harm us (drugs...) or seem altruistic (sharing your knowledge of Linux ;). But absolutely every act of every human being in History, including all the moving ones of self-sacrifice, are for the actor's benefit. I'm not being cynical here. How can you irrationally act in your own interests? You seem to equate interests with benefits with desires, which is certainly a tenable position, and has the virtue of simplicity, but then may include genuinely altruistic behaviour - if I desire to help people more than I desire to act on what an econmist would class as my interests, I will do so, and in your terms, I am acting in my interests. Sir Robin Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] just a comment
I used to use linux back in the day to piss everyone off that wanted to use my pc. now its just a ing job... On Thursday 12 December 2002 01:12 pm, Meliton wrote: On Thu, 2002-12-12 at 20:31, Charlie wrote: On December 12, 2002 01:02 am, Meliton wrote: snip Open minds, perhaps. But in my opinion the driving force behind the amazing support one gets on Linux is fundamentally egoistic: it feels good to help someone out, specially when they ask nicely. It also implies a touch of vanity, not as in posing, rather an intimate thing, the satisfaction of knowing oneself useful. Don't get me wrong on egoism, I'm all in favour. It's the only natural thing, we all act in our own interests. Volunteers who go off to poor countries to help people are just being egoistic, in my view, and that doesn't make them bad people. Lets all keep at it, this egoism thing rocks. Meliton. [rant alert] Subjective observations. Caveat: Since I know myself so well and have analyzed who and what I am to an absurd degree; nearly any question I pose here is rhetorical, _for me._ The answers are readily apparent from my perspective. You'll have to answer any you may find intriguing for yourself. I do as much as I can to help others with installing, and using, Open Source Software, simply because I feel an obligation. To myself. I've received help from the community since I became curious about GNU/Linux, that curiosity was often partially satisfied by answers from people on mailing lists and help forum web sites. Even the RTFM/STFW style answer usually told me something I needed to know. However those answers never quite felt sufficient since, due to personal time constraints, or other factors, others may not have been able to sort through thousands of pages of manuals or web 'how-to pages'; or may just require a more finely directed as to *what* to read. Taking the arrogance out of the elitist style answers above comes closer to meeting my self imposed obligation to try to share knowledge. Does this fit your mold of egoism and it's resultant behaviors? Yes it does. Or is egoism as an answer appearing as to flip, to simplistic to fit the record? Egoism is just a word, I use it a lot because it shocks some people into not lying to themselves. Too few people. And I do believe that we all act strictly according to our interests, though not as rational beings (which we are NOT). Those interests may be (often are) hidden from us, and we often act in ways that harm us (drugs...) or seem altruistic (sharing your knowledge of Linux ;). But absolutely every act of every human being in History, including all the moving ones of self-sacrifice, are for the actor's benefit. I'm not being cynical here. Installations aren't always permanent among a few of the friends and acquaintances that I've helped. Repetitious yes. Permanent? The reasons are myriad, but the underlying theme nearly always has been in the form of; but I didn't have to know how Windows does this. It's too hard. My answer is almost always; Does any release of Windows allow secure multi-user/multi-tasking computing _when it's running as a default installation_? I think everyone here knows that answer. Other favorite answers; If it's so hard how can I run without Windows? Which of the last 10 virii/trojans/worms affected your computer and/or did you have to re-install and have you lost data and time because of it? These are very rare occurrences in Open Source Operating System environments simply because the developers don't expect that you stay ignorant as to what happens when you push that power on button. In fact they almost _demand_ that you _not_ remain uninformed. By default GNU/Linux seems to make the assumption that you're willing and able to learn at least a few basic facts. The longer the development process continues, and the more people that switch, the fewer the 'basics' that are required just to be a user. Windows developers, and the Microsoft Corporation, actually want you to stay 'stuck on stupid' for life. It's safer for them. Who benefits? In light of the above; and my sense of obligation to pass on the little I've learned, does it benefit *me,* primarily through feeling good about it, or is it self preservation to help to teach others to break this particular trap? Wether your primary reason is feeling good about it or self preservation, I'm not to know. But I'm glad to see that you agree with me. This thing that was started to facilitate military communication (the internet) has been deeded to us all for our use. Does it not seem therefore that we all have an obligation to learn to use it safely and properly, and to protect the right to use it freely? Is it not a 'battlefield' for freedom? Of expression, ideas, _knowledge_? Information exchange without threat
Re: [newbie] just a comment
Ego??? Some times in some ways for SOME people, MAYBE. I've learned that being a teacher (good teacher) one learns far more the the student Joy comes in serving others. Helping others is a commandment for some of us (Biblical speaking). I may be new at Linux, but have spent much of my life helping others in various ways, do NOT like being in the spotlight. Alexander Solzhenitsyn found joy in the midst of Stalin's Gulag, as he learned the meaning of dying to self. I suppose you believe people like Dietrich Bonhoffer (killed by Hitler) was an egomaniac by risking his freedom and life leading the Nazi resistance movement within the Church of Germany? GIVING, NOT BEING SELF-CENTERED, Is at the heart of a life of joy and freedom... On Thursday 12 December 2002 02:12 pm, you wrote: On Thu, 2002-12-12 at 20:31, Charlie wrote: On December 12, 2002 01:02 am, Meliton wrote: snip Open minds, perhaps. But in my opinion the driving force behind the amazing support one gets on Linux is fundamentally egoistic: it feels good to help someone out, specially when they ask nicely. It also implies a touch of vanity, not as in posing, rather an intimate thing, the satisfaction of knowing oneself useful. Don't get me wrong on egoism, I'm all in favour. It's the only natural thing, we all act in our own interests. Volunteers who go off to poor countries to help people are just being egoistic, in my view, and that doesn't make them bad people. Lets all keep at it, this egoism thing rocks. Meliton. [rant alert] Subjective observations. Caveat: Since I know myself so well and have analyzed who and what I am to an absurd degree; nearly any question I pose here is rhetorical, _for me._ The answers are readily apparent from my perspective. You'll have to answer any you may find intriguing for yourself. I do as much as I can to help others with installing, and using, Open Source Software, simply because I feel an obligation. To myself. I've received help from the community since I became curious about GNU/Linux, that curiosity was often partially satisfied by answers from people on mailing lists and help forum web sites. Even the RTFM/STFW style answer usually told me something I needed to know. However those answers never quite felt sufficient since, due to personal time constraints, or other factors, others may not have been able to sort through thousands of pages of manuals or web 'how-to pages'; or may just require a more finely directed as to *what* to read. Taking the arrogance out of the elitist style answers above comes closer to meeting my self imposed obligation to try to share knowledge. Does this fit your mold of egoism and it's resultant behaviors? Yes it does. Or is egoism as an answer appearing as to flip, to simplistic to fit the record? Egoism is just a word, I use it a lot because it shocks some people into not lying to themselves. Too few people. And I do believe that we all act strictly according to our interests, though not as rational beings (which we are NOT). Those interests may be (often are) hidden from us, and we often act in ways that harm us (drugs...) or seem altruistic (sharing your knowledge of Linux ;). But absolutely every act of every human being in History, including all the moving ones of self-sacrifice, are for the actor's benefit. I'm not being cynical here. Installations aren't always permanent among a few of the friends and acquaintances that I've helped. Repetitious yes. Permanent? The reasons are myriad, but the underlying theme nearly always has been in the form of; but I didn't have to know how Windows does this. It's too hard. My answer is almost always; Does any release of Windows allow secure multi-user/multi-tasking computing _when it's running as a default installation_? I think everyone here knows that answer. Other favorite answers; If it's so hard how can I run without Windows? Which of the last 10 virii/trojans/worms affected your computer and/or did you have to re-install and have you lost data and time because of it? These are very rare occurrences in Open Source Operating System environments simply because the developers don't expect that you stay ignorant as to what happens when you push that power on button. In fact they almost _demand_ that you _not_ remain uninformed. By default GNU/Linux seems to make the assumption that you're willing and able to learn at least a few basic facts. The longer the development process continues, and the more people that switch, the fewer the 'basics' that are required just to be a user. Windows developers, and the Microsoft Corporation, actually want you to stay 'stuck on stupid' for life. It's safer for them. Who benefits? In light of the above; and my sense of obligation to pass on the little I've learned, does it benefit *me,* primarily through feeling good
Re: [newbie] just a comment
On Thu, Dec 12, 2002 at 09:12:15PM +0100, Meliton wrote: Egoism is just a word, I use it a lot because it shocks some people into not lying to themselves. Too few people. And I do believe that we all act strictly according to our interests, though not as rational beings (which we are NOT). Those interests may be (often are) hidden from us, and we often act in ways that harm us (drugs...) or seem altruistic (sharing your knowledge of Linux ;). But absolutely every act of every human being in History, including all the moving ones of self-sacrifice, are for the actor's benefit. I'm not being cynical here. This is your opinion and that is fine, but please don't insult others by suggesting that they are living a lie and that you are a saviour that can reveal the truth to them. Imagine two soldiers who are ordered to carry out cruel and vicious acts (maybe they're Nazis). The penalty for failing to carry out an order is death. One soldier does his job without thinking, the other decides he cannot carry out the order. He knows that he will be put to death. I suppose you can argue that the second soldier is acting in his own self interest because he wants to die with a clean conscience, but I don't buy it. His self interest would always be to preserve his own life. How do you explain these supererogatory acts? I don't have a problem admitting that humans are selfish, but I don't subscribe to the absolutist nature of your supposition. And you won't be able to convince me otherwise, because this is a belief. Todd Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] just a comment
On Fri, 2002-12-13 at 08:33, Todd Slater wrote: This is your opinion and that is fine, but please don't insult others by suggesting that they are living a lie and that you are a saviour that can reveal the truth to them. Imagine two soldiers who are ordered to carry out cruel and vicious acts (maybe they're Nazis). The penalty for failing to carry out an order is death. One soldier does his job without thinking, the other decides he cannot carry out the order. He knows that he will be put to death. I suppose you can argue that the second soldier is acting in his own self interest because he wants to die with a clean conscience, but I don't buy it. His self interest would always be to preserve his own life. How do you explain these supererogatory acts? I don't have a problem admitting that humans are selfish, but I don't subscribe to the absolutist nature of your supposition. And you won't be able to convince me otherwise, because this is a belief. Todd Gads, people - we're getting a bit knee deep in brown sludge here - let's all face it - we all do it for different reasons. Personally, I get a raging hard-on from it all. There, I said it. (g) Cheers! -- Fri Dec 13 08:50:00 EST 2002 8:50am up 2 days, 1:12, 5 users, load average: 0.15, 0.38, 0.62 .o0 linux user:267497 0o. |____ | kühn media australia | / \ /| |'-. | http://kma.0catch.com | .\__/ || | | | | _ / `._ \|_|_.-' | stephen kühn | | / \__.`=._) (_ | email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] | |/ ._/ || | email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] | |'. `\ | | |icq: 5483808 | ;/ / | | | | smk ) /_/| |.---.| | mobile: 0410-728-389 | ' `-`' | Berkeley, New South Wales, AU Coralament*Best Grötens*Liebe Grüße*Best Regards*Elkorajn Salutojn New York... when civilization falls apart, remember, we were way ahead of you. - David Letterman Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] just a comment
On Thu, 2002-12-12 at 20:51, Robin Turner wrote: How can you irrationally act in your own interests? Well, I smoke, for example. That is certainly NOT in my material interests. It is totally irrational. But in a totally irrational way, the cancer is better than the stress of quitting. Notice that interests is a very ample word. You seem to equate interests with benefits with desires, which include, for example, avoiding guilt from indeleble conditioning, though conforting thoughts can dress such behaviour quite nicely which is certainly a tenable position, and has the virtue of simplicity, but then may include genuinely altruistic behaviour - if I desire to help people more than I desire to act on what an econmist would class as my interests, I will do so, and in your terms, I am acting in my interests. Of course. And why you should desire one thing more than the other is nobody's business, and most of us normally don't delve that deep. There are fouler and more ancient creatures there, my dear Frodo, etc. (yes, I know. Been one all my life). As I said, I use egoism a lot, so I'm no longer surprised at the resistance it provokes. It's an altruistic thing I do, you know, purely out of the kindness of my heart, to jibe people, specially the most self-righteous ones. None of that sort in this thread, and surprisingly few in the Linux community. I'm having wonderful experiences since I switched, and since we are way off topic anyway, let me recount just one. I have an USB ADSL modem for which the manufacturer provides no Linux drivers (surprise surprise). The people at http://eciadsl.flashtux.org/ write and maintain one. I couldn't get it to work, but they have a specialised chat channel. I'd never used IRC, but I dowloaded a client for windows, entered their chat, and got real time analysis of the files I kept sending them as they asked, retrieved from my Linux partition thanks to a program they recommended. They found the problem, provided the solution, and here I am. Windows is rotting in a corner of my hard disk. At the same time, these people were answering questions, in french and english, to a lot of other lost newbies like me. You can't pay for help like that. I have a debt of gratitude to these folks. But they do it because they want to, they are Mother Theresas to me, but then she went to the lepers 'cos SHE wanted to, also. Money is not the only thing that moves people, but altruism is at least as ambiguous as my use of egoism. I refuse to take it at face value. I hope this deep down the thread nobody who is likely to be shocked by the misplacing of such discussions is reading. If anybody, however, should be offended, I apologize. I guess I too got a button inadvertedly pressed... :) Meliton. Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] just a comment
But absolutely every act of every human being in History, including all the moving ones of self-sacrifice, are for the actor's benefit. I'm not being cynical here. this is THE MOST cynical statement possible. you are _clearly_ in denial. Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] just a comment
On Thursday 12 December 2002 04:12 pm, Franki wrote: pardon me, but what has this to do about linux?? Its sad, the same reason we help people is often the same reason that we end up in intellectual pissing matches like this... a feeling of superiority so we end up in discussions using bigger and bigger words.. and achiving nothing... Its pointless and useless... why bother??? lets all be friends and concentrate on spreading the linux word shall we? rgds Frank Such wisdom, from one so recently on this planet -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Robin Turner Sent: Friday, 13 December 2002 3:51 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [newbie] just a comment Meliton wrote: On Thu, 2002-12-12 at 20:31, Charlie wrote: [snip] Or is egoism as an answer appearing as to flip, to simplistic to fit the record? Egoism is just a word, I use it a lot because it shocks some people into not lying to themselves. Too few people. And I do believe that we all act strictly according to our interests, though not as rational beings (which we are NOT). Those interests may be (often are) hidden from us, and we often act in ways that harm us (drugs...) or seem altruistic (sharing your knowledge of Linux ;). But absolutely every act of every human being in History, including all the moving ones of self-sacrifice, are for the actor's benefit. I'm not being cynical here. How can you irrationally act in your own interests? You seem to equate interests with benefits with desires, which is certainly a tenable position, and has the virtue of simplicity, but then may include genuinely altruistic behaviour - if I desire to help people more than I desire to act on what an econmist would class as my interests, I will do so, and in your terms, I am acting in my interests. Sir Robin Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
[OT] Re: [newbie] just a comment
Franki wrote: pardon me, but what has this to do about linux?? Well, to the extent that it's relevant to the Open Source community, it's relevant to Linux, and to the extent that it's relevant to people's motivations for posting to lists, it's relevant to any list. But essentially you are right - I'm not saying squelch this topic, but let's give it an OT prefix, or continue it on a philosophy forum. Its sad, the same reason we help people is often the same reason that we end up in intellectual pissing matches like this... a feeling of superiority so we end up in discussions using bigger and bigger words.. and achiving nothing... Not in the 'nix world, where you gain a sense of superiority by using smaller and smaller words: bin; awk; ln -s; ls -l etc. ;-) Its pointless and useless... why bother??? lets all be friends and concentrate on spreading the linux word shall we? Amen to that. Whether we regard it as self-interest, social obligation, or a mystically-inspired commandment from the Great Penguin in the Sky, we are agredd that it's a worthy/satisfying/cool thing to do. Sir Robin (who, incidentally, took on that title as a way of taking the piss out of people who had questioned his motivation for defending a damsel in distress on this list) Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] just a comment [WAY OT now]
On December 12, 2002 01:12 pm, Meliton wrote:
snipped at random
Should this be taken off list? Probably matters not since I'm done with this
reply. Sorry for wasting the bandwidth.
Does this fit your mold of egoism and it's resultant behaviors?
Yes it does.
Are you sure?
reference:
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=egoism
Or is egoism as an answer appearing as too flip, too simplistic to fit the
record?
Egoism is just a word, I use it a lot because it shocks some people
into not lying to themselves. Too few people. And I do believe that we
all act strictly according to our interests, though not as rational
beings (which we are NOT). Those interests may be (often are) hidden
from us, and we often act in ways that harm us (drugs...) or seem
altruistic (sharing your knowledge of Linux ;). But absolutely every act
of every human being in History, including all the moving ones of
self-sacrifice, are for the actor's benefit. I'm not being cynical here.
shocks some people into not lying to themselves. Too few people. seems
rather judgmental does it not? Do you have a gift to understand the reality
of anyone other than yourself? Judge not... etc. Labels suck. All labels.
Not rational? Speak only for yourself. Please.
You use the word in it's full Adlerian context. die.: Everything is all about
society and power therein. Adler was an idiot. I don't subscribe to the
notion that my insistence on being responsible for myself is a way to make me
feel good or to benefit society or help me integrate in any societal context.
Quite the opposite in fact since sometimes being brutally honest about an
issue feels rather hellishly bad and pisses people off. Ignoring confusion or
the lack of desire to ameliorate it however feels worse because I would be
breaking a promise. To myself. It's more a lose/lose situation in other words
and totally unacceptable. Enlightened self interest is something I often
hear spouted by individuals of a particular political philosophy and I still
find it laughable. My question remains still; is it better to share freely
(not force upon) what one knows with others because it's _right_ in one's own
mind and 'the question' was asked, or is it better to attempt to weasel some
advantage from it? Or condemn it as conceit? I've never been paid for the
help I give, have refused payment more than once, don't put it on offer
anywhere but do answer when I am able on mailing lists I subscribe to, and
the people that I have helped locally sought my help of their own accord. I
still question whether what I do fits the definition of help in any event,
but that's a personal matter between myself and my perfectionist tendencies.
I stated at the beginning that I have no illusions about myself. Altruism is a
false notion invented by philosophers that can't stand to take the universe
straight. I sacrifice nothing to help if I'm able other than a little time,
and that's my choice. I also gain nothing from it, and since I've never
claimed to be a likeable person to begin with what makes you think I care
about anyone's opinion? Feeling good? I can live with myself if I do as I
have done, I have nobody that I must needs answer to. To thine own self be
true but I would add to that aphorism or you're a fsck-in' idiot. :-)
You may be correct about people's burying their collective heads in the sand
(or a less sanitary location) but very few of those people use open source
software. Not for long anyway. Most of them want others (ie.; government,
religious organizations, professional organizations, MICROSOFT, etc.) to make
decisions for them, or at least want someone else to take care of them and
make the hard choices. I want (and advocate) free choice, unlimited choice,
and that's my privilege. I advocate that it should be everyone's. Including
yours.
Your use of a word not fully understood is a form of egoism by the way.
{rhetoric]
If members of the group/union/brotherhood/society/community/church/board/ad
nauseum agree in the majority then it must be so, and I don't have to spend
time to analyses it.
Are you capable of analyzing it? What is it? What color? Size? Function? Who
told you? How did they know? Are you sure?
[\rhetoric]
When did being exclusionary ever benefit the human race? I really don't have
that much faith in the species frankly. Except Never understand the power of
human stupidity. Addition to the aphorism; Especially in large groups.
In light of the above; and my sense of obligation to pass on the little
I've learned, does it benefit *me,* primarily through feeling good about
it, or is it self preservation to help to teach others to break this
particular trap?
Wether your primary reason is feeling good about it or self
preservation, I'm not to know. But I'm glad to see that you agree with me.
Sure you know, I've told you. Are you doubting my word? Your privilege. Agree
with you? Is English your first language?
Re: [newbie] just a comment
Meliton wrote: I have a debt of gratitude to these folks. But they do it because they want to, they are Mother Theresas to me, but then she went to the lepers 'cos SHE wanted to, also. Money is not the only thing that moves people, but altruism is at least as ambiguous as my use of egoism. I refuse to take it at face value. Oooh - don't get me started on the Mother Theresa cult, or OT will be several orders of magnitude too small to describe what I could get into! I hope this deep down the thread nobody who is likely to be shocked by the misplacing of such discussions is reading. If anybody, however, should be offended, I apologize. I guess I too got a button inadvertedly pressed... :) It happens to us all! I'm sure if someone on this list said something like Donald Knuth is OK, but in terms of sheer intellectual genius he has nothing on Ayn Rand I would be setting phasers on flame before I'd even considered whether it was worth repsonding to on a Linux list. One place your ideas might fruitfully be appreciated / debated / criticised / abused is a philosophy forum such as http://www.livejournal.com/users/philosophy . The philosophical issues of Open Source / Free Software are worth debating outside the techie community. Sir Robin Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [OT] Re: [newbie] just a comment
FemmeFatale wrote: [snip] Sir Robin (who, incidentally, took on that title as a way of taking the piss out of people who had questioned his motivation for defending a damsel in distress on this list) I have to snicker luv, cause I must admit you taking that title was quite the surprise at the time. The fact you still have it amazes me :) Knighthood is for life, not just for Christmas! If I may comment, your post sounds as if you are both discussing a religion, not an OS. Heh, just thought that was funny. The same considerations apply, albeit at a trivial level. - FemmeFatale Good to see you back here! Sir Robin the Faithful Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] just a comment
On Wed, 2002-12-11 at 15:58, Dennis Myers wrote: On Wednesday 11 December 2002 09:38 pm, Ray Henry wrote: I think it's grate that every on can help other Linux user. Unlike Windows users Linux users stick to grate I have a theory on that... :) My great theory is that there are so many levels in which one can get involved in Linux that those using it are willing to spend time with the newbies because one day, they may venture into a realm that is out of their depth, and need help themselves :) OK, flame away! G That may be part of it, but I believe that the people who venture in to linux have open minds and a belief that the world is bad enough as it is so maybe we can make it better with the OSS. Turn no one away, help all that we can. This is a network of givers not greeders. Bad english, bad english. Hehe. You get my meaning? : ) Or it *could* be a vigilant fringe of oddballs with a chip on their shoulders, willing to expend any amount of energy just to prevent Bill Gates from getting another dollar! LOL! Ah, whatever it is, I'm sure everyone has their own reasons, and it's all good... :) Bad English or not.. ; Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] just a comment
On Thu, 2002-12-12 at 08:58, Dennis Myers wrote: That may be part of it, but I believe that the people who venture in to linux have open minds and a belief that the world is bad enough as it is so maybe we can make it better with the OSS. Turn no one away, help all that we can. This is a network of givers not greeders. Bad english, bad english. Hehe. You get my meaning? : ) It's the same mentality that we had throughout the 80's and early 90's - but that changed with the tide of Win95 and WinNT and public internet. THEN all of a sudden, people became closed mouthed and close minded - almost like CNE's (Novell ticket holders)...now that's all changing once again - and the only way for everyone to benefit is to benefit everyone else. -- Thu Dec 12 15:50:01 EST 2002 3:50pm up 1 day, 8:12, 6 users, load average: 1.78, 2.39, 2.13 .o0 linux user:267497 0o. |____ | kühn media australia | / \ /| |'-. | http://kma.0catch.com | .\__/ || | | | | _ / `._ \|_|_.-' | stephen kühn | | / \__.`=._) (_ | email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] | |/ ._/ || | email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] | |'. `\ | | |icq: 5483808 | ;/ / | | | | smk ) /_/| |.---.| | mobile: 0410-728-389 | ' `-`' | Berkeley, New South Wales, AU Coralament*Best Grötens*Liebe Grüße*Best Regards*Elkorajn Salutojn He who lives without folly is less wise than he believes. Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
