Re: DISK BASED BACKUP
I was able to do 1 TB to a USB drive in less than 8 hours while the machines were live. That would depend on how you do the work and the version of USB you are using. YMMV Jon On Tue, Apr 6, 2010 at 5:17 PM, Murray Freeman mfree...@alanet.org wrote: I do have multiple servers to be backed up, so I suspect that the USB interface may be too slow. Do you see any issues with backing up from other servers over the network? *Murray* -- *From:* Jon Harris [mailto:jk.har...@gmail.com] *Sent:* Tuesday, April 06, 2010 4:09 PM *To:* NT System Admin Issues *Subject:* Re: DISK BASED BACKUP Go with the native tools in Windows 2008 and use disks instead. Depending on which 2008 you can do different things. R2 is better than the orginal. If the entire server is less than a TB then a simple USB drive. Jon On Tue, Apr 6, 2010 at 4:58 PM, Murray Freeman mfree...@alanet.orgwrote: We're a small shop and have half a dozen servers in use at present, but will be expanding. We currently sue 3 tape drives to back up our servers, and are using NTBackup on Windows Server 2003. We will be moving to Windows Server 2008 maybe next year, and I'm aware that NTBackup has been replaced. With that in mind, we're considering conversion to disk based backup media, and we want removable disks so we can send media off site regularly. I'd be interested in what devices and software are currently in use or at least what recommendations you might have. *Murray* ~ Finally, powerful endpoint security that ISN'T a resource hog! ~ ~ http://www.sunbeltsoftware.com/Business/VIPRE-Enterprise/ ~
Re: DISK BASED BACKUP
Would esata be faster how about a cheap freenas box with iscsi A freenas box with 4 disk raid 0+1 Iscsi connection?? Any ideas. Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile -Original Message- From: Jon Harris jk.har...@gmail.com Date: Wed, 7 Apr 2010 16:36:43 To: NT System Admin Issuesntsysadmin@lyris.sunbelt-software.com Subject: Re: DISK BASED BACKUP I was able to do 1 TB to a USB drive in less than 8 hours while the machines were live. That would depend on how you do the work and the version of USB you are using. YMMV Jon On Tue, Apr 6, 2010 at 5:17 PM, Murray Freeman mfree...@alanet.org wrote: I do have multiple servers to be backed up, so I suspect that the USB interface may be too slow. Do you see any issues with backing up from other servers over the network? *Murray* -- *From:* Jon Harris [mailto:jk.har...@gmail.com] *Sent:* Tuesday, April 06, 2010 4:09 PM *To:* NT System Admin Issues *Subject:* Re: DISK BASED BACKUP Go with the native tools in Windows 2008 and use disks instead. Depending on which 2008 you can do different things. R2 is better than the orginal. If the entire server is less than a TB then a simple USB drive. Jon On Tue, Apr 6, 2010 at 4:58 PM, Murray Freeman mfree...@alanet.orgwrote: We're a small shop and have half a dozen servers in use at present, but will be expanding. We currently sue 3 tape drives to back up our servers, and are using NTBackup on Windows Server 2003. We will be moving to Windows Server 2008 maybe next year, and I'm aware that NTBackup has been replaced. With that in mind, we're considering conversion to disk based backup media, and we want removable disks so we can send media off site regularly. I'd be interested in what devices and software are currently in use or at least what recommendations you might have. *Murray* ~ Finally, powerful endpoint security that ISN'T a resource hog! ~ ~ http://www.sunbeltsoftware.com/Business/VIPRE-Enterprise/ ~ ~ Finally, powerful endpoint security that ISN'T a resource hog! ~ ~ http://www.sunbeltsoftware.com/Business/VIPRE-Enterprise/ ~
DISK BASED BACKUP
We're a small shop and have half a dozen servers in use at present, but will be expanding. We currently sue 3 tape drives to back up our servers, and are using NTBackup on Windows Server 2003. We will be moving to Windows Server 2008 maybe next year, and I'm aware that NTBackup has been replaced. With that in mind, we're considering conversion to disk based backup media, and we want removable disks so we can send media off site regularly. I'd be interested in what devices and software are currently in use or at least what recommendations you might have. Murray ~ Finally, powerful endpoint security that ISN'T a resource hog! ~ ~ http://www.sunbeltsoftware.com/Business/VIPRE-Enterprise/ ~
Re: DISK BASED BACKUP
Go with the native tools in Windows 2008 and use disks instead. Depending on which 2008 you can do different things. R2 is better than the orginal. If the entire server is less than a TB then a simple USB drive. Jon On Tue, Apr 6, 2010 at 4:58 PM, Murray Freeman mfree...@alanet.org wrote: We're a small shop and have half a dozen servers in use at present, but will be expanding. We currently sue 3 tape drives to back up our servers, and are using NTBackup on Windows Server 2003. We will be moving to Windows Server 2008 maybe next year, and I'm aware that NTBackup has been replaced. With that in mind, we're considering conversion to disk based backup media, and we want removable disks so we can send media off site regularly. I'd be interested in what devices and software are currently in use or at least what recommendations you might have. *Murray* ~ Finally, powerful endpoint security that ISN'T a resource hog! ~ ~ http://www.sunbeltsoftware.com/Business/VIPRE-Enterprise/ ~
RE: DISK BASED BACKUP
I do have multiple servers to be backed up, so I suspect that the USB interface may be too slow. Do you see any issues with backing up from other servers over the network? Murray From: Jon Harris [mailto:jk.har...@gmail.com] Sent: Tuesday, April 06, 2010 4:09 PM To: NT System Admin Issues Subject: Re: DISK BASED BACKUP Go with the native tools in Windows 2008 and use disks instead. Depending on which 2008 you can do different things. R2 is better than the orginal. If the entire server is less than a TB then a simple USB drive. Jon On Tue, Apr 6, 2010 at 4:58 PM, Murray Freeman mfree...@alanet.org wrote: We're a small shop and have half a dozen servers in use at present, but will be expanding. We currently sue 3 tape drives to back up our servers, and are using NTBackup on Windows Server 2003. We will be moving to Windows Server 2008 maybe next year, and I'm aware that NTBackup has been replaced. With that in mind, we're considering conversion to disk based backup media, and we want removable disks so we can send media off site regularly. I'd be interested in what devices and software are currently in use or at least what recommendations you might have. Murray ~ Finally, powerful endpoint security that ISN'T a resource hog! ~ ~ http://www.sunbeltsoftware.com/Business/VIPRE-Enterprise/ ~
RE: DISK BASED BACKUP
Perhaps eSATA then. From: Murray Freeman [mailto:mfree...@alanet.org] Sent: Tuesday, April 06, 2010 4:18 PM To: NT System Admin Issues Subject: RE: DISK BASED BACKUP I do have multiple servers to be backed up, so I suspect that the USB interface may be too slow. Do you see any issues with backing up from other servers over the network? Murray From: Jon Harris [mailto:jk.har...@gmail.com] Sent: Tuesday, April 06, 2010 4:09 PM To: NT System Admin Issues Subject: Re: DISK BASED BACKUP Go with the native tools in Windows 2008 and use disks instead. Depending on which 2008 you can do different things. R2 is better than the orginal. If the entire server is less than a TB then a simple USB drive. Jon On Tue, Apr 6, 2010 at 4:58 PM, Murray Freeman mfree...@alanet.org wrote: We're a small shop and have half a dozen servers in use at present, but will be expanding. We currently sue 3 tape drives to back up our servers, and are using NTBackup on Windows Server 2003. We will be moving to Windows Server 2008 maybe next year, and I'm aware that NTBackup has been replaced. With that in mind, we're considering conversion to disk based backup media, and we want removable disks so we can send media off site regularly. I'd be interested in what devices and software are currently in use or at least what recommendations you might have. Murray ~ Finally, powerful endpoint security that ISN'T a resource hog! ~ ~ http://www.sunbeltsoftware.com/Business/VIPRE-Enterprise/ ~
Re: DISK BASED BACKUP
I use Netbackup and vRanger (ESX) for backups at 2 different sites. I hate tapes, so I just set up some iSCSI LUNs and back up to that. Once a week we copy the Netbackup (or vRanger) images to a couple large USB drivse and send them offsite. Works pretty well. Actual file copies can be slow, so I use Netbackup duplicate feature for the NB images and Netbackup to backup the vRanger images to the USB drives. This can be done during the day on the backup server so the backup window can be large if needed. Disk images are great. Faster backup times, faster restore times, a lot more portable (no taking a tape from one site to another then rescanning the entire damn thing), no tape relates issues, no stuck libraries, etc. My example uses Netbackup, I'm sure ntbackup/2k8 whatever backup will work just as well. Seth On Tue, Apr 6, 2010 at 4:17 PM, Murray Freeman mfree...@alanet.org wrote: I do have multiple servers to be backed up, so I suspect that the USB interface may be too slow. Do you see any issues with backing up from other servers over the network? Murray ~ Finally, powerful endpoint security that ISN'T a resource hog! ~ ~ http://www.sunbeltsoftware.com/Business/VIPRE-Enterprise/ ~
Re: DISK BASED BACKUP
We're getting ready to test Dell RD-1000 devices, both exernal and internal. The normal external is USB-connected SATA drive, but we've been told we could get a SAS connection, also. We're using Commvault for our backup software, but I wouldn't suggest that if you're a small shop; stick to the native tools, or find a good open source program, like others have said. Murray Freeman mfree...@alanet.org 4/6/2010 1:58 PM We're a small shop and have half a dozen servers in use at present, but will be expanding. We currently sue 3 tape drives to back up our servers, and are using NTBackup on Windows Server 2003. We will be moving to Windows Server 2008 maybe next year, and I'm aware that NTBackup has been replaced. With that in mind, we're considering conversion to disk based backup media, and we want removable disks so we can send media off site regularly. I'd be interested in what devices and software are currently in use or at least what recommendations you might have. Murray ~ Finally, powerful endpoint security that ISN'T a resource hog! ~ ~ http://www.sunbeltsoftware.com/Business/VIPRE-Enterprise/ ~ ~ Finally, powerful endpoint security that ISN'T a resource hog! ~ ~ http://www.sunbeltsoftware.com/Business/VIPRE-Enterprise/ ~
RE: Hard disk technology (was: Disk based backup)
I suspect this new drive claiming 140MB/sec sustained rates is running 2 heads in parallel since this number is about double what you see in normal drives. They could have sped up the rotational speed and/or upped the bit density to get this performance as well. -Original Message- From: Ben Scott [mailto:mailvor...@gmail.com] Sent: Monday, September 21, 2009 12:13 PM To: NT System Admin Issues Subject: Re: Hard disk technology (was: Disk based backup) On Mon, Sep 21, 2009 at 11:09 AM, Alverson, Tom (Xetron) tom.alver...@ngc.com wrote: I'm wondering why they have not done this yet as well. Using more that 2 heads in parallel would at some point be enough to saturate existing SATA interfaces. Unless they *are* already doing it, and the current speeds of hard drives reflect that. Do you have any reason to believe they are not already doing so? -- Ben ~ Finally, powerful endpoint security that ISN'T a resource hog! ~ ~ http://www.sunbeltsoftware.com/Business/VIPRE-Enterprise/ ~ ~ Finally, powerful endpoint security that ISN'T a resource hog! ~ ~ http://www.sunbeltsoftware.com/Business/VIPRE-Enterprise/ ~
RE: Hard disk technology (was: Disk based backup)
Correct. Until they improve the raw speed of the drives, the faster interface helps mainly to speed up reading and writing to the drives onboard ram cache, which is a good thing but doesn't help applications where you need sustained high speed reading and writing (video, raw data collection etc). -Original Message- From: Ben Scott [mailto:mailvor...@gmail.com] Sent: Monday, September 21, 2009 2:18 PM To: NT System Admin Issues Subject: Re: Hard disk technology (was: Disk based backup) On Mon, Sep 21, 2009 at 2:08 PM, Sam Cayze sam.ca...@rollouts.com wrote: It promises a sustained transfer rate of just 140MBps ... I presume they mean 140 Mbyte/sec, which is 1140 Mbit/sec (ignoring overhead). In other words, it can't even saturate first-generation SATA (1500 Mbit/sec), let alone second-generation (3000 Mbit/sec), let twice alone the new 6000 Mbit/sec some people are so excited about. -- Ben ~ Finally, powerful endpoint security that ISN'T a resource hog! ~ ~ http://www.sunbeltsoftware.com/Business/VIPRE-Enterprise/ ~ ~ Finally, powerful endpoint security that ISN'T a resource hog! ~ ~ http://www.sunbeltsoftware.com/Business/VIPRE-Enterprise/ ~
RE: Disk based backup
Sorry, I didn't know what i was thinking about...I meant LTO5 that they will be release in the coming year... --- El mié, 16/9/09, Miguel Gonzalez miguel_3_gonza...@yahoo.es escribió: De: Miguel Gonzalez miguel_3_gonza...@yahoo.es Asunto: RE: Disk based backup Para: NT System Admin Issues ntsysadmin@lyris.sunbelt-software.com Fecha: miércoles, 16 septiembre, 2009 2:23 are LTO4 already in the market? We are getting info that won't be available until beginning of next year. The best solution right now is mixing disk and tapes backups: VTL (Virtual Tape Library). But it's a little bit pricey for a small businesses, although I believe there could be open source or free (or close to free) solutions. Tapes are good to manage and take them to a firesafe place (not only good in the case of fire but also in the case of robbery or flooding or any other disaster). We are using Netbackup at work and have saved our asses almost every week. Netbackup marks tapes that are no good so you can discard them. I've seen a business spending around $12,000 to recover data for having no backups (which is close to have a bad backup policy) because a RAID array failed after a battery replacement. We have evolved our pure-tape-LTO backups to a VTL. This is great since backups and restores from disk take nothing to be done and you can decide which information will be exported to tapes (you can keep email and user data on disk for instance). I guess you can dimension it as you want: from just an old server with a huge hard drive and a LTO tape drive to a more reliable RAID array with a robot. It always depends on your budget. Regards, Miguel --- El mié, 16/9/09, Sam Cayze sam.ca...@rollouts.com escribió: De: Sam Cayze sam.ca...@rollouts.com Asunto: RE: Disk based backup Para: NT System Admin Issues ntsysadmin@lyris.sunbelt-software.com Fecha: miércoles, 16 septiembre, 2009 1:32 Sounds about right, I am getting 1,500MB/MIN (25MB/SEC) on my backups. And iirc my restores were about 20MB/Sec going to bare metal RAID5. What speeds do you see with LTO? Has the reliability of tapes increased in your opinion? Good info, thanks as always. Sam -Original Message- From: Ken Schaefer [mailto:k...@adopenstatic.com] Sent: Tuesday, September 15, 2009 11:04 PM To: NT System Admin Issues Subject: RE: Disk based backup eSata will be about 1.5x what you can get with USB only (assuming you are copying to a single target disk). I've generally found that USB2 peaks at around 15-20MB/sec, and eSATA is around 25-30MB/sec (max) With LTO4 - if you are copying from a single disk, then the limitation will be the source, not the destination. Likewise with restores, you'll probably be bottlenecked by the target if it's a single spindle. Cheers Ken -Original Message- From: Sam Cayze [mailto:sam.ca...@rollouts.com] Sent: Wednesday, 16 September 2009 1:41 PM To: NT System Admin Issues Subject: RE: Disk based backup Wow! Had no idea. I've been on eSATA drives for years now, ditched tapes for the speed and reliability. Ken, do the restore speeds also show this type of performance? Because ultimately that's what matters, right. -Original Message- From: Ken Schaefer [mailto:k...@adopenstatic.com] Sent: Tuesday, September 15, 2009 10:36 PM To: NT System Admin Issues Subject: RE: Disk based backup USB connected drives are way too slow. LTO4 alone should get you 5x-6x the speed of a USB connected drive (YMMV) Cheers Ken -Original Message- From: Benjamin Zachary - Lists [mailto:li...@levelfive.us] Sent: Wednesday, 16 September 2009 9:14 AM To: NT System Admin Issues Subject: RE: Disk based backup Why not just take some external drives and mount them in whatever you use (BEX/UB etc) and rotate the drives. At 79 bucks for a 1TB SATA, or 89 for a USB version, you could do a 5 day rotation for 2 weeks for 900 dollars if you can get the data on 1tb. If you want to be more involved do the backups with deltas so you only do changes throughout the week and should be good. With the drives being so fast restoring through 3-4 usb drives isn't really a big deal, not like waiting 30 mins for cataloging a tape.. ~ Finally, powerful endpoint security that ISN'T a resource hog! ~ ~ http://www.sunbeltsoftware.com/Business/VIPRE-Enterprise/ ~ ~ Finally, powerful endpoint security that ISN'T a resource hog! ~ ~ http://www.sunbeltsoftware.com/Business/VIPRE-Enterprise/ ~ ~ Finally, powerful endpoint security that ISN'T a resource hog! ~ ~ http://www.sunbeltsoftware.com/Business/VIPRE-Enterprise/ ~ ~ Finally, powerful endpoint security that ISN'T a resource hog! ~ ~ http://www.sunbeltsoftware.com/Business/VIPRE-Enterprise
RE: Hard disk technology (was: Disk based backup)
I'm wondering why they have not done this yet as well. Using more that 2 heads in parallel would at some point be enough to saturate existing SATA interfaces. There is no way they could do 8 heads in parallel and have enough bandwidth (even with 3.0 Gbit/sec SATA) to prevent saturating the SATA bus. Flash hard drives have been doing this since the first ones came out several years ago (running multiple sub-systems in parallel) to overcome the slower speeds of the Flash chips. I don't know if the modern flash hard drives need to do this any more (the flash chips might be fast enough now). The first Flash hard drives ran about $30,000 for a 30GB drive, and they were in the 3.5 in form factor to fit all the chips. Tom -Original Message- From: Ben Scott [mailto:mailvor...@gmail.com] Sent: Thursday, September 17, 2009 8:37 PM To: NT System Admin Issues Subject: Hard disk technology (was: Disk based backup) On Thu, Sep 17, 2009 at 4:10 PM, Alverson, Tom (Xetron) tom.alver...@ngc.com wrote: Modern hard drives can sustain, what, maybe 0.4 to 0.6 Gbit/sec? Even the 3 Gbit/sec we have now is much higher than that. How is moving to 6 Gbit/sec going to help? :) All they need to do is upgrade the (on-board) controllers to operate all the heads in parallel. For a 4 platter drive (8 heads) they could get an immediate 8X improvement in real read and write speeds. But that's got nothing to do with any particular revision of the SATA standard, right? You can interleave data across heads whether it's SATA, SCSI, or PATA. Even PATA hard drives have been presenting synthetic C/H/S geometry for something like a decade now, so it's not like the controllers don't already have to do the job. And given that *current* hard drives can't even keep up with SATA at 1.5 Gbit/sec, I would then ask: Why haven't they done this already? Or have they already, and the speeds we see today are *with* interleaving? (I'll ignore for the time being that most consumer hard disks these days only have one or two heads anyway.) -- Ben ~ Finally, powerful endpoint security that ISN'T a resource hog! ~ ~ http://www.sunbeltsoftware.com/Business/VIPRE-Enterprise/ ~ ~ Finally, powerful endpoint security that ISN'T a resource hog! ~ ~ http://www.sunbeltsoftware.com/Business/VIPRE-Enterprise/ ~
RE: Hard disk technology (was: Disk based backup)
It may have been done already (2 heads running in parallel). I have a Seagate 1.5TB drive that is surprisingly fast (115MB/sec sustained) that may be doing this, or they may just have a very high bit density. The 750GB drives we have run about 70MB/sec with the same test. Tom -Original Message- From: Ken Schaefer [mailto:k...@adopenstatic.com] Sent: Thursday, September 17, 2009 11:01 PM To: NT System Admin Issues Subject: RE: Hard disk technology (was: Disk based backup) I have to agree with Ben here. If it were easy to do, it would have been done already. I suspect the improved bus speeds will help devices that aren't current spinning disks (maybe flash based drives), or where we are able to present an array of disks at the end of the bus (e.g. external direct attached storage connected via eSATA) Cheers Ken ~ Finally, powerful endpoint security that ISN'T a resource hog! ~ ~ http://www.sunbeltsoftware.com/Business/VIPRE-Enterprise/ ~
Re: Hard disk technology (was: Disk based backup)
I'm very curious as to when did harddrive manufacturers swich to having independently operating heads? Is this a new development that I missed? For as long as I can remember, the heads (regardless of how many there are) are operated by a single head motor. So while it can interleave data across multiple platters, all the heads would still be at the same location on the platters. On Mon, Sep 21, 2009 at 11:09 AM, Alverson, Tom (Xetron) tom.alver...@ngc.com wrote: I'm wondering why they have not done this yet as well. Using more that 2 heads in parallel would at some point be enough to saturate existing SATA interfaces. There is no way they could do 8 heads in parallel and have enough bandwidth (even with 3.0 Gbit/sec SATA) to prevent saturating the SATA bus. Flash hard drives have been doing this since the first ones came out several years ago (running multiple sub-systems in parallel) to overcome the slower speeds of the Flash chips. I don't know if the modern flash hard drives need to do this any more (the flash chips might be fast enough now). The first Flash hard drives ran about $30,000 for a 30GB drive, and they were in the 3.5 in form factor to fit all the chips. Tom -Original Message- From: Ben Scott [mailto:mailvor...@gmail.com] Sent: Thursday, September 17, 2009 8:37 PM To: NT System Admin Issues Subject: Hard disk technology (was: Disk based backup) On Thu, Sep 17, 2009 at 4:10 PM, Alverson, Tom (Xetron) tom.alver...@ngc.com wrote: Modern hard drives can sustain, what, maybe 0.4 to 0.6 Gbit/sec? Even the 3 Gbit/sec we have now is much higher than that. How is moving to 6 Gbit/sec going to help? :) All they need to do is upgrade the (on-board) controllers to operate all the heads in parallel. For a 4 platter drive (8 heads) they could get an immediate 8X improvement in real read and write speeds. But that's got nothing to do with any particular revision of the SATA standard, right? You can interleave data across heads whether it's SATA, SCSI, or PATA. Even PATA hard drives have been presenting synthetic C/H/S geometry for something like a decade now, so it's not like the controllers don't already have to do the job. And given that *current* hard drives can't even keep up with SATA at 1.5 Gbit/sec, I would then ask: Why haven't they done this already? Or have they already, and the speeds we see today are *with* interleaving? (I'll ignore for the time being that most consumer hard disks these days only have one or two heads anyway.) -- Ben ~ Finally, powerful endpoint security that ISN'T a resource hog! ~ ~ http://www.sunbeltsoftware.com/Business/VIPRE-Enterprise/ ~ ~ Finally, powerful endpoint security that ISN'T a resource hog! ~ ~ http://www.sunbeltsoftware.com/Business/VIPRE-Enterprise/ ~ ~ Finally, powerful endpoint security that ISN'T a resource hog! ~ ~ http://www.sunbeltsoftware.com/Business/VIPRE-Enterprise/ ~
RE: Hard disk technology (was: Disk based backup)
But this info is not in the specs of thee HD isn't it? So how do you know that is actually that fast before buying it? Miguel --- El lun, 21/9/09, Alverson, Tom (Xetron) tom.alver...@ngc.com escribió: De: Alverson, Tom (Xetron) tom.alver...@ngc.com Asunto: RE: Hard disk technology (was: Disk based backup) Para: NT System Admin Issues ntsysadmin@lyris.sunbelt-software.com Fecha: lunes, 21 septiembre, 2009 11:13 It may have been done already (2 heads running in parallel). I have a Seagate 1.5TB drive that is surprisingly fast (115MB/sec sustained) that may be doing this, or they may just have a very high bit density. The 750GB drives we have run about 70MB/sec with the same test. Tom -Original Message- From: Ken Schaefer [mailto:k...@adopenstatic.com] Sent: Thursday, September 17, 2009 11:01 PM To: NT System Admin Issues Subject: RE: Hard disk technology (was: Disk based backup) I have to agree with Ben here. If it were easy to do, it would have been done already. I suspect the improved bus speeds will help devices that aren't current spinning disks (maybe flash based drives), or where we are able to present an array of disks at the end of the bus (e.g. external direct attached storage connected via eSATA) Cheers Ken ~ Finally, powerful endpoint security that ISN'T a resource hog! ~ ~ http://www.sunbeltsoftware.com/Business/VIPRE-Enterprise/ ~ ~ Finally, powerful endpoint security that ISN'T a resource hog! ~ ~ http://www.sunbeltsoftware.com/Business/VIPRE-Enterprise/ ~
RE: Hard disk technology (was: Disk based backup)
The heads are all locked together. There is no need to have them move independently. From: Scott Kaufman [mailto:bskauf...@gmail.com] Sent: Monday, September 21, 2009 11:17 AM To: NT System Admin Issues Subject: Re: Hard disk technology (was: Disk based backup) I'm very curious as to when did harddrive manufacturers swich to having independently operating heads? Is this a new development that I missed? For as long as I can remember, the heads (regardless of how many there are) are operated by a single head motor. So while it can interleave data across multiple platters, all the heads would still be at the same location on the platters. On Mon, Sep 21, 2009 at 11:09 AM, Alverson, Tom (Xetron) tom.alver...@ngc.com wrote: I'm wondering why they have not done this yet as well. Using more that 2 heads in parallel would at some point be enough to saturate existing SATA interfaces. There is no way they could do 8 heads in parallel and have enough bandwidth (even with 3.0 Gbit/sec SATA) to prevent saturating the SATA bus. Flash hard drives have been doing this since the first ones came out several years ago (running multiple sub-systems in parallel) to overcome the slower speeds of the Flash chips. I don't know if the modern flash hard drives need to do this any more (the flash chips might be fast enough now). The first Flash hard drives ran about $30,000 for a 30GB drive, and they were in the 3.5 in form factor to fit all the chips. Tom -Original Message- From: Ben Scott [mailto:mailvor...@gmail.com] Sent: Thursday, September 17, 2009 8:37 PM To: NT System Admin Issues Subject: Hard disk technology (was: Disk based backup) On Thu, Sep 17, 2009 at 4:10 PM, Alverson, Tom (Xetron) tom.alver...@ngc.com wrote: Modern hard drives can sustain, what, maybe 0.4 to 0.6 Gbit/sec? Even the 3 Gbit/sec we have now is much higher than that. How is moving to 6 Gbit/sec going to help? :) All they need to do is upgrade the (on-board) controllers to operate all the heads in parallel. For a 4 platter drive (8 heads) they could get an immediate 8X improvement in real read and write speeds. But that's got nothing to do with any particular revision of the SATA standard, right? You can interleave data across heads whether it's SATA, SCSI, or PATA. Even PATA hard drives have been presenting synthetic C/H/S geometry for something like a decade now, so it's not like the controllers don't already have to do the job. And given that *current* hard drives can't even keep up with SATA at 1.5 Gbit/sec, I would then ask: Why haven't they done this already? Or have they already, and the speeds we see today are *with* interleaving? (I'll ignore for the time being that most consumer hard disks these days only have one or two heads anyway.) -- Ben ~ Finally, powerful endpoint security that ISN'T a resource hog! ~ ~ http://www.sunbeltsoftware.com/Business/VIPRE-Enterprise/ ~ ~ Finally, powerful endpoint security that ISN'T a resource hog! ~ ~ http://www.sunbeltsoftware.com/Business/VIPRE-Enterprise/ ~ ~ Finally, powerful endpoint security that ISN'T a resource hog! ~ ~ http://www.sunbeltsoftware.com/Business/VIPRE-Enterprise/ ~
RE: Hard disk technology (was: Disk based backup)
There is if you want to read from different portions of different platters... And write performance is nowhere near the speed of read performance at the moment. Cheers Ken From: Alverson, Tom (Xetron) [mailto:tom.alver...@ngc.com] Sent: Tuesday, 22 September 2009 1:54 AM To: NT System Admin Issues Subject: RE: Hard disk technology (was: Disk based backup) The heads are all locked togethe There is no need to have them move independently. From: Scott Kaufman [mailto:bskauf...@gmail.com] Sent: Monday, September 21, 2009 11:17 AM To: NT System Admin Issues Subject: Re: Hard disk technology (was: Disk based backup) I'm very curious as to when did harddrive manufacturers swich to having independently operating heads? Is this a new development that I missed? For as long as I can remember, the heads (regardless of how many there are) are operated by a single head motor. So while it can interleave data across multiple platters, all the heads would still be at the same location on the platters. On Mon, Sep 21, 2009 at 11:09 AM, Alverson, Tom (Xetron) tom.alver...@ngc.commailto:tom.alver...@ngc.com wrote: I'm wondering why they have not done this yet as well. Using more that 2 heads in parallel would at some point be enough to saturate existing SATA interfaces. There is no way they could do 8 heads in parallel and have enough bandwidth (even with 3.0 Gbit/sec SATA) to prevent saturating the SATA bus. Flash hard drives have been doing this since the first ones came out several years ago (running multiple sub-systems in parallel) to overcome the slower speeds of the Flash chips. I don't know if the modern flash hard drives need to do this any more (the flash chips might be fast enough now). The first Flash hard drives ran about $30,000 for a 30GB drive, and they were in the 3.5 in form factor to fit all the chips. Tom -Original Message- From: Ben Scott [mailto:mailvor...@gmail.commailto:mailvor...@gmail.com] Sent: Thursday, September 17, 2009 8:37 PM To: NT System Admin Issues Subject: Hard disk technology (was: Disk based backup) On Thu, Sep 17, 2009 at 4:10 PM, Alverson, Tom (Xetron) tom.alver...@ngc.commailto:tom.alver...@ngc.com wrote: Modern hard drives can sustain, what, maybe 0.4 to 0.6 Gbit/sec? Even the 3 Gbit/sec we have now is much higher than that. How is moving to 6 Gbit/sec going to help? :) All they need to do is upgrade the (on-board) controllers to operate all the heads in parallel. For a 4 platter drive (8 heads) they could get an immediate 8X improvement in real read and write speeds. But that's got nothing to do with any particular revision of the SATA standard, right? You can interleave data across heads whether it's SATA, SCSI, or PATA. Even PATA hard drives have been presenting synthetic C/H/S geometry for something like a decade now, so it's not like the controllers don't already have to do the job. And given that *current* hard drives can't even keep up with SATA at 1.5 Gbit/sec, I would then ask: Why haven't they done this already? Or have they already, and the speeds we see today are *with* interleaving? (I'll ignore for the time being that most consumer hard disks these days only have one or two heads anyway.) ~ Finally, powerful endpoint security that ISN'T a resource hog! ~ ~ http://www.sunbeltsoftware.com/Business/VIPRE-Enterprise/ ~
Re: Hard disk technology (was: Disk based backup)
On Mon, Sep 21, 2009 at 11:17 AM, Scott Kaufman bskauf...@gmail.com wrote: So while it can interleave data across multiple platters, all the heads would still be at the same location on the platters. In a sequential read or write operation, by interleaving data across the platters (actually, sides of platters), you should be able to increase throughput. If you don't interleave this way, then you read all sectors along a single track, then seek to the next track. Once you've covered all tracks on a side, you move to the next side (head). With this interleaving, you read all sectors on all sides at once. Then you read the next set of sectors, all at once. When you reach the end of the track, you seek to the next track, but keep reading all heads at once. You essentially multiply sequential throughput by the number of sides. Same for writing. If you're doing random I/O instead, you don't get any benefit from this, but it doesn't hurt anything, either. You already have to seek -- move the arm and wait for the sector to rotate around -- anyway. Just only activate the head you need. This would require the controller have logic to drive and buffer multiple heads at once (without this kind of interleaving, you could switch a single set of logic across all heads), but beyond that, it should be trivial. As I said, it's entirely possible, even likely, they do this already. -- Ben ~ Finally, powerful endpoint security that ISN'T a resource hog! ~ ~ http://www.sunbeltsoftware.com/Business/VIPRE-Enterprise/ ~
Re: Hard disk technology (was: Disk based backup)
On Mon, Sep 21, 2009 at 11:09 AM, Alverson, Tom (Xetron) tom.alver...@ngc.com wrote: I'm wondering why they have not done this yet as well. Using more that 2 heads in parallel would at some point be enough to saturate existing SATA interfaces. Unless they *are* already doing it, and the current speeds of hard drives reflect that. Do you have any reason to believe they are not already doing so? -- Ben ~ Finally, powerful endpoint security that ISN'T a resource hog! ~ ~ http://www.sunbeltsoftware.com/Business/VIPRE-Enterprise/ ~
Re: Hard disk technology (was: Disk based backup)
On Mon, Sep 21, 2009 at 2:08 PM, Sam Cayze sam.ca...@rollouts.com wrote: It promises a sustained transfer rate of just 140MBps ... I presume they mean 140 Mbyte/sec, which is 1140 Mbit/sec (ignoring overhead). In other words, it can't even saturate first-generation SATA (1500 Mbit/sec), let alone second-generation (3000 Mbit/sec), let twice alone the new 6000 Mbit/sec some people are so excited about. -- Ben ~ Finally, powerful endpoint security that ISN'T a resource hog! ~ ~ http://www.sunbeltsoftware.com/Business/VIPRE-Enterprise/ ~
RE: Hard disk technology (was: Disk based backup)
Related: http://www.engadget.com/2009/09/21/seagate-2tb-barracuda-xt-worlds-first -sata-6gbps-hard-drive/ Haven't been following the thread, but just saw this on Engadget. Ready for this speed freaks? Seagate just announced the world's first 2TB disk with full support for the third generation SATA interface pushing data at 6Gbps -- double the rate of previous controllers. The 3.5-inch SATA 6Gbps Barracuda XT drive spins 4x 500GB platters at 7200RPM with a big 64MB cache to prevent bottlenecks. It promises a sustained transfer rate of just 140MBps (compared to 600MBps / 4.8Gbps possible), MTBF of 750,000 hours, and carries a five-year warranty. The disk hits retail this week for about $299 list. Then you'll just need to find SATA 6G controller / MoBo to make the most of your new purchase -- fortunately, SATA 6Gbps is backward compatible with SATA 1.5Gbps or 3Gbps rigs until then. ~ Finally, powerful endpoint security that ISN'T a resource hog! ~ ~ http://www.sunbeltsoftware.com/Business/VIPRE-Enterprise/ ~
RE: Disk based backup
What makes you think they don't today? -sc -Original Message- From: Alverson, Tom (Xetron) [mailto:tom.alver...@ngc.com] Sent: Thursday, September 17, 2009 4:10 PM To: NT System Admin Issues Subject: RE: Disk based backup All they need to do is upgrade the (on-board) controllers to operate all the heads in parallel. For a 4 platter drive (8 heads) they could get an immediate 8X improvement in real read and write speeds. Tom -Original Message- From: Ben Scott [mailto:mailvor...@gmail.com] Sent: Thursday, September 17, 2009 11:26 AM To: NT System Admin Issues Subject: Re: Disk based backup On Wed, Sep 16, 2009 at 9:15 PM, Terry Dickson te...@treasurer.state.ks.us wrote: Keep an eye on Sata, Sata3 is coming fast and the speed will a HUGE difference. Modern hard drives can sustain, what, maybe 0.4 to 0.6 Gbit/sec? Even the 3 Gbit/sec we have now is much higher than that. How is moving to 6 Gbit/sec going to help? :) -- ben ~ Finally, powerful endpoint security that ISN'T a resource hog! ~ ~ http://www.sunbeltsoftware.com/Business/VIPRE-Enterprise/ ~ ~ Finally, powerful endpoint security that ISN'T a resource hog! ~ ~ http://www.sunbeltsoftware.com/Business/VIPRE-Enterprise/ ~
RE: Disk based backup
If they did the performance boost would be obvious with benchmark testing. The maximum sustained data transfer rate (read or write) depends on how much data is stored on each track of data (1 revolution of the platter with the head not moving) and the speed that the platter is rotating. All of the speed increases in the last few years have been a result of the increased bit-density on the platters. I have seen one Seagate 1TB drive with suspiciously higher numbers than other drives, but I don't know if that is due to a denser platter, or maybe they are using 2 heads at a time. Tom -Original Message- From: Steven M. Caesare [mailto:scaes...@caesare.com] Sent: Friday, September 18, 2009 9:09 AM To: NT System Admin Issues Subject: RE: Disk based backup What makes you think they don't today? -sc ~ Finally, powerful endpoint security that ISN'T a resource hog! ~ ~ http://www.sunbeltsoftware.com/Business/VIPRE-Enterprise/ ~
Re: Disk based backup
On Wed, Sep 16, 2009 at 9:15 PM, Terry Dickson te...@treasurer.state.ks.us wrote: Keep an eye on Sata, Sata3 is coming fast and the speed will a HUGE difference. Modern hard drives can sustain, what, maybe 0.4 to 0.6 Gbit/sec? Even the 3 Gbit/sec we have now is much higher than that. How is moving to 6 Gbit/sec going to help? :) -- ben ~ Finally, powerful endpoint security that ISN'T a resource hog! ~ ~ http://www.sunbeltsoftware.com/Business/VIPRE-Enterprise/ ~
RE: Disk based backup
All they need to do is upgrade the (on-board) controllers to operate all the heads in parallel. For a 4 platter drive (8 heads) they could get an immediate 8X improvement in real read and write speeds. Tom -Original Message- From: Ben Scott [mailto:mailvor...@gmail.com] Sent: Thursday, September 17, 2009 11:26 AM To: NT System Admin Issues Subject: Re: Disk based backup On Wed, Sep 16, 2009 at 9:15 PM, Terry Dickson te...@treasurer.state.ks.us wrote: Keep an eye on Sata, Sata3 is coming fast and the speed will a HUGE difference. Modern hard drives can sustain, what, maybe 0.4 to 0.6 Gbit/sec? Even the 3 Gbit/sec we have now is much higher than that. How is moving to 6 Gbit/sec going to help? :) -- ben ~ Finally, powerful endpoint security that ISN'T a resource hog! ~ ~ http://www.sunbeltsoftware.com/Business/VIPRE-Enterprise/ ~
Hard disk technology (was: Disk based backup)
On Thu, Sep 17, 2009 at 4:10 PM, Alverson, Tom (Xetron) tom.alver...@ngc.com wrote: Modern hard drives can sustain, what, maybe 0.4 to 0.6 Gbit/sec? Even the 3 Gbit/sec we have now is much higher than that. How is moving to 6 Gbit/sec going to help? :) All they need to do is upgrade the (on-board) controllers to operate all the heads in parallel. For a 4 platter drive (8 heads) they could get an immediate 8X improvement in real read and write speeds. But that's got nothing to do with any particular revision of the SATA standard, right? You can interleave data across heads whether it's SATA, SCSI, or PATA. Even PATA hard drives have been presenting synthetic C/H/S geometry for something like a decade now, so it's not like the controllers don't already have to do the job. And given that *current* hard drives can't even keep up with SATA at 1.5 Gbit/sec, I would then ask: Why haven't they done this already? Or have they already, and the speeds we see today are *with* interleaving? (I'll ignore for the time being that most consumer hard disks these days only have one or two heads anyway.) -- Ben ~ Finally, powerful endpoint security that ISN'T a resource hog! ~ ~ http://www.sunbeltsoftware.com/Business/VIPRE-Enterprise/ ~
RE: Hard disk technology (was: Disk based backup)
I have to agree with Ben here. If it were easy to do, it would have been done already. I suspect the improved bus speeds will help devices that aren't current spinning disks (maybe flash based drives), or where we are able to present an array of disks at the end of the bus (e.g. external direct attached storage connected via eSATA) Cheers Ken -Original Message- From: Ben Scott [mailto:mailvor...@gmail.com] Sent: Friday, 18 September 2009 10:37 AM To: NT System Admin Issues Subject: Hard disk technology (was: Disk based backup) On Thu, Sep 17, 2009 at 4:10 PM, Alverson, Tom (Xetron) tom.alver...@ngc.com wrote: Modern hard drives can sustain, what, maybe 0.4 to 0.6 Gbit/sec? Even the 3 Gbit/sec we have now is much higher than that. How is moving to 6 Gbit/sec going to help? :) All they need to do is upgrade the (on-board) controllers to operate all the heads in parallel. For a 4 platter drive (8 heads) they could get an immediate 8X improvement in real read and write speeds. But that's got nothing to do with any particular revision of the SATA standard, right? You can interleave data across heads whether it's SATA, SCSI, or PATA. Even PATA hard drives have been presenting synthetic C/H/S geometry for something like a decade now, so it's not like the controllers don't already have to do the job. And given that *current* hard drives can't even keep up with SATA at 1.5 Gbit/sec, I would then ask: Why haven't they done this already? Or have they already, and the speeds we see today are *with* interleaving? (I'll ignore for the time being that most consumer hard disks these days only have one or two heads anyway.) -- Ben ~ Finally, powerful endpoint security that ISN'T a resource hog! ~ ~ http://www.sunbeltsoftware.com/Business/VIPRE-Enterprise/ ~
RE: Disk based backup
are LTO4 already in the market? We are getting info that won't be available until beginning of next year. The best solution right now is mixing disk and tapes backups: VTL (Virtual Tape Library). But it's a little bit pricey for a small businesses, although I believe there could be open source or free (or close to free) solutions. Tapes are good to manage and take them to a firesafe place (not only good in the case of fire but also in the case of robbery or flooding or any other disaster). We are using Netbackup at work and have saved our asses almost every week. Netbackup marks tapes that are no good so you can discard them. I've seen a business spending around $12,000 to recover data for having no backups (which is close to have a bad backup policy) because a RAID array failed after a battery replacement. We have evolved our pure-tape-LTO backups to a VTL. This is great since backups and restores from disk take nothing to be done and you can decide which information will be exported to tapes (you can keep email and user data on disk for instance). I guess you can dimension it as you want: from just an old server with a huge hard drive and a LTO tape drive to a more reliable RAID array with a robot. It always depends on your budget. Regards, Miguel --- El mié, 16/9/09, Sam Cayze sam.ca...@rollouts.com escribió: De: Sam Cayze sam.ca...@rollouts.com Asunto: RE: Disk based backup Para: NT System Admin Issues ntsysadmin@lyris.sunbelt-software.com Fecha: miércoles, 16 septiembre, 2009 1:32 Sounds about right, I am getting 1,500MB/MIN (25MB/SEC) on my backups. And iirc my restores were about 20MB/Sec going to bare metal RAID5. What speeds do you see with LTO? Has the reliability of tapes increased in your opinion? Good info, thanks as always. Sam -Original Message- From: Ken Schaefer [mailto:k...@adopenstatic.com] Sent: Tuesday, September 15, 2009 11:04 PM To: NT System Admin Issues Subject: RE: Disk based backup eSata will be about 1.5x what you can get with USB only (assuming you are copying to a single target disk). I've generally found that USB2 peaks at around 15-20MB/sec, and eSATA is around 25-30MB/sec (max) With LTO4 - if you are copying from a single disk, then the limitation will be the source, not the destination. Likewise with restores, you'll probably be bottlenecked by the target if it's a single spindle. Cheers Ken -Original Message- From: Sam Cayze [mailto:sam.ca...@rollouts.com] Sent: Wednesday, 16 September 2009 1:41 PM To: NT System Admin Issues Subject: RE: Disk based backup Wow! Had no idea. I've been on eSATA drives for years now, ditched tapes for the speed and reliability. Ken, do the restore speeds also show this type of performance? Because ultimately that's what matters, right. -Original Message- From: Ken Schaefer [mailto:k...@adopenstatic.com] Sent: Tuesday, September 15, 2009 10:36 PM To: NT System Admin Issues Subject: RE: Disk based backup USB connected drives are way too slow. LTO4 alone should get you 5x-6x the speed of a USB connected drive (YMMV) Cheers Ken -Original Message- From: Benjamin Zachary - Lists [mailto:li...@levelfive.us] Sent: Wednesday, 16 September 2009 9:14 AM To: NT System Admin Issues Subject: RE: Disk based backup Why not just take some external drives and mount them in whatever you use (BEX/UB etc) and rotate the drives. At 79 bucks for a 1TB SATA, or 89 for a USB version, you could do a 5 day rotation for 2 weeks for 900 dollars if you can get the data on 1tb. If you want to be more involved do the backups with deltas so you only do changes throughout the week and should be good. With the drives being so fast restoring through 3-4 usb drives isn't really a big deal, not like waiting 30 mins for cataloging a tape.. ~ Finally, powerful endpoint security that ISN'T a resource hog! ~ ~ http://www.sunbeltsoftware.com/Business/VIPRE-Enterprise/ ~ ~ Finally, powerful endpoint security that ISN'T a resource hog! ~ ~ http://www.sunbeltsoftware.com/Business/VIPRE-Enterprise/ ~ ~ Finally, powerful endpoint security that ISN'T a resource hog! ~ ~ http://www.sunbeltsoftware.com/Business/VIPRE-Enterprise/ ~ ~ Finally, powerful endpoint security that ISN'T a resource hog! ~ ~ http://www.sunbeltsoftware.com/Business/VIPRE-Enterprise/ ~ ~ Finally, powerful endpoint security that ISN'T a resource hog! ~ ~ http://www.sunbeltsoftware.com/Business/VIPRE-Enterprise/ ~
Re: Disk based backup
I've had a few of the Fantom external Megadrives that have two 1tb drives inside which can be switched between raid 0/1, jbod... On esata in raid0 mode they are crazy fast. Peaking around 100 mbyte/sec. But yeah USB sucks. Regards, Phillip Partipilo p...@psnet.com On Sep 16, 2009, at 12:04 AM, Ken Schaefer k...@adopenstatic.com wrote: eSata will be about 1.5x what you can get with USB only (assuming you are copying to a single target disk). I've generally found that USB2 peaks at around 15-20MB/sec, and eSATA is around 25-30MB/sec (max) With LTO4 - if you are copying from a single disk, then the limitation will be the source, not the destination. Likewise with restores, you'll probably be bottlenecked by the target if it's a single spindle. Cheers Ken -Original Message- From: Sam Cayze [mailto:sam.ca...@rollouts.com] Sent: Wednesday, 16 September 2009 1:41 PM To: NT System Admin Issues Subject: RE: Disk based backup Wow! Had no idea. I've been on eSATA drives for years now, ditched tapes for the speed and reliability. Ken, do the restore speeds also show this type of performance? Because ultimately that's what matters, right. -Original Message- From: Ken Schaefer [mailto:k...@adopenstatic.com] Sent: Tuesday, September 15, 2009 10:36 PM To: NT System Admin Issues Subject: RE: Disk based backup USB connected drives are way too slow. LTO4 alone should get you 5x-6x the speed of a USB connected drive (YMMV) Cheers Ken -Original Message- From: Benjamin Zachary - Lists [mailto:li...@levelfive.us] Sent: Wednesday, 16 September 2009 9:14 AM To: NT System Admin Issues Subject: RE: Disk based backup Why not just take some external drives and mount them in whatever you use (BEX/UB etc) and rotate the drives. At 79 bucks for a 1TB SATA, or 89 for a USB version, you could do a 5 day rotation for 2 weeks for 900 dollars if you can get the data on 1tb. If you want to be more involved do the backups with deltas so you only do changes throughout the week and should be good. With the drives being so fast restoring through 3-4 usb drives isn't really a big deal, not like waiting 30 mins for cataloging a tape.. ~ Finally, powerful endpoint security that ISN'T a resource hog! ~ ~ http://www.sunbeltsoftware.com/Business/VIPRE-Enterprise/ ~ ~ Finally, powerful endpoint security that ISN'T a resource hog! ~ ~ http://www.sunbeltsoftware.com/Business/VIPRE-Enterprise/ ~ ~ Finally, powerful endpoint security that ISN'T a resource hog! ~ ~ http://www.sunbeltsoftware.com/Business/VIPRE-Enterprise/ ~ -- If this email is spam, report it here: http://www.onlymyemail.com/view/?action=reportSpamId=ODEzNjQ6OTY0MTI2MDYzOnBqcEBwc25ldC5jb20%3D THIS ELECTRONIC MESSAGE AND ANY ATTACHMENTS ARE CONFIDENTIAL AND PROPRIETARY PROPERTY OF THE SENDER. THE INFORMATION IS INTENDED FOR USE BY THE ADDRESSEE ONLY. ANY OTHER INTERCEPTION, COPYING, ACCESSING, OR DISCLOSURE OF THIS MESSAGE IS PROHIBITED. IF YOU HAVE RECEIVED THIS MESSAGE IN ERROR, PLEASE IMMEDIATELY NOTIFY THE SENDER AND DELETE THIS MAIL AND ALL ATTACHMENTS. DO NOT FORWARD THIS MESSAGE WITHOUT PERMISSION OF THE SENDER. ~ Finally, powerful endpoint security that ISN'T a resource hog! ~ ~ http://www.sunbeltsoftware.com/Business/VIPRE-Enterprise/ ~
RE: Disk based backup
LTO4 has been around for a couple of years. Are you thinking LTO5? Cheers Ken -Original Message- From: Miguel Gonzalez [mailto:miguel_3_gonza...@yahoo.es] Sent: Wednesday, 16 September 2009 4:23 PM To: NT System Admin Issues Subject: RE: Disk based backup are LTO4 already in the market? We are getting info that won't be available until beginning of next year. The best solution right now is mixing disk and tapes backups: VTL (Virtual Tape Library). But it's a little bit pricey for a small businesses, although I believe there could be open source or free (or close to free) solutions. Tapes are good to manage and take them to a firesafe place (not only good in the case of fire but also in the case of robbery or flooding or any other disaster). We are using Netbackup at work and have saved our asses almost every week. Netbackup marks tapes that are no good so you can discard them. I've seen a business spending around $12,000 to recover data for having no backups (which is close to have a bad backup policy) because a RAID array failed after a battery replacement. We have evolved our pure-tape-LTO backups to a VTL. This is great since backups and restores from disk take nothing to be done and you can decide which information will be exported to tapes (you can keep email and user data on disk for instance). I guess you can dimension it as you want: from just an old server with a huge hard drive and a LTO tape drive to a more reliable RAID array with a robot. It always depends on your budget. Regards, Miguel --- El mié, 16/9/09, Sam Cayze sam.ca...@rollouts.com escribió: De: Sam Cayze sam.ca...@rollouts.com Asunto: RE: Disk based backup Para: NT System Admin Issues ntsysadmin@lyris.sunbelt-software.com Fecha: miércoles, 16 septiembre, 2009 1:32 Sounds about right, I am getting 1,500MB/MIN (25MB/SEC) on my backups. And iirc my restores were about 20MB/Sec going to bare metal RAID5. What speeds do you see with LTO? Has the reliability of tapes increased in your opinion? Good info, thanks as always. Sam -Original Message- From: Ken Schaefer [mailto:k...@adopenstatic.com] Sent: Tuesday, September 15, 2009 11:04 PM To: NT System Admin Issues Subject: RE: Disk based backup eSata will be about 1.5x what you can get with USB only (assuming you are copying to a single target disk). I've generally found that USB2 peaks at around 15-20MB/sec, and eSATA is around 25-30MB/sec (max) With LTO4 - if you are copying from a single disk, then the limitation will be the source, not the destination. Likewise with restores, you'll probably be bottlenecked by the target if it's a single spindle. Cheers Ken -Original Message- From: Sam Cayze [mailto:sam.ca...@rollouts.com] Sent: Wednesday, 16 September 2009 1:41 PM To: NT System Admin Issues Subject: RE: Disk based backup Wow! Had no idea. I've been on eSATA drives for years now, ditched tapes for the speed and reliability. Ken, do the restore speeds also show this type of performance? Because ultimately that's what matters, right. -Original Message- From: Ken Schaefer [mailto:k...@adopenstatic.com] Sent: Tuesday, September 15, 2009 10:36 PM To: NT System Admin Issues Subject: RE: Disk based backup USB connected drives are way too slow. LTO4 alone should get you 5x-6x the speed of a USB connected drive (YMMV) Cheers Ken -Original Message- From: Benjamin Zachary - Lists [mailto:li...@levelfive.us] Sent: Wednesday, 16 September 2009 9:14 AM To: NT System Admin Issues Subject: RE: Disk based backup Why not just take some external drives and mount them in whatever you use (BEX/UB etc) and rotate the drives. At 79 bucks for a 1TB SATA, or 89 for a USB version, you could do a 5 day rotation for 2 weeks for 900 dollars if you can get the data on 1tb. If you want to be more involved do the backups with deltas so you only do changes throughout the week and should be good. With the drives being so fast restoring through 3-4 usb drives isn't really a big deal, not like waiting 30 mins for cataloging a tape.. ~ Finally, powerful endpoint security that ISN'T a resource hog! ~ ~ http://www.sunbeltsoftware.com/Business/VIPRE-Enterprise/ ~
RE: Disk based backup
So get a workstation with a 4 bay sata hot swap. Basically for the price I would take a handful of sata drives over tapes. By the time you get a fast library that can keep up your in the multi thousands. ~ Finally, powerful endpoint security that ISN'T a resource hog! ~ ~ http://www.sunbeltsoftware.com/Business/VIPRE-Enterprise/ ~
RE: Disk based backup
But now wouldn't eSATA be a good alternative ? I haven't benchmarked throughput but *should* be as good as internal, right ? Erik Goldoff IT Consultant Systems, Networks, Security -Original Message- From: Ken Schaefer [mailto:k...@adopenstatic.com] Sent: Tuesday, September 15, 2009 11:36 PM To: NT System Admin Issues Subject: RE: Disk based backup USB connected drives are way too slow. LTO4 alone should get you 5x-6x the speed of a USB connected drive (YMMV) Cheers Ken -Original Message- From: Benjamin Zachary - Lists [mailto:li...@levelfive.us] Sent: Wednesday, 16 September 2009 9:14 AM To: NT System Admin Issues Subject: RE: Disk based backup Why not just take some external drives and mount them in whatever you use (BEX/UB etc) and rotate the drives. At 79 bucks for a 1TB SATA, or 89 for a USB version, you could do a 5 day rotation for 2 weeks for 900 dollars if you can get the data on 1tb. If you want to be more involved do the backups with deltas so you only do changes throughout the week and should be good. With the drives being so fast restoring through 3-4 usb drives isn't really a big deal, not like waiting 30 mins for cataloging a tape.. ~ Finally, powerful endpoint security that ISN'T a resource hog! ~ ~ http://www.sunbeltsoftware.com/Business/VIPRE-Enterprise/ ~ ~ Finally, powerful endpoint security that ISN'T a resource hog! ~ ~ http://www.sunbeltsoftware.com/Business/VIPRE-Enterprise/ ~
RE: Disk based backup
You would think esata throughput would be much better. I am looking at a promise tx4302 pci card that specs 3gb/sec for esata. This is for both the internal connectors and external. -Original Message- From: Erik Goldoff [mailto:egold...@gmail.com] Sent: Wednesday, September 16, 2009 8:20 AM To: NT System Admin Issues Subject: RE: Disk based backup But now wouldn't eSATA be a good alternative ? I haven't benchmarked throughput but *should* be as good as internal, right ? Erik Goldoff IT Consultant Systems, Networks, Security -Original Message- From: Ken Schaefer [mailto:k...@adopenstatic.com] Sent: Tuesday, September 15, 2009 11:36 PM To: NT System Admin Issues Subject: RE: Disk based backup USB connected drives are way too slow. LTO4 alone should get you 5x-6x the speed of a USB connected drive (YMMV) Cheers Ken -Original Message- From: Benjamin Zachary - Lists [mailto:li...@levelfive.us] Sent: Wednesday, 16 September 2009 9:14 AM To: NT System Admin Issues Subject: RE: Disk based backup Why not just take some external drives and mount them in whatever you use (BEX/UB etc) and rotate the drives. At 79 bucks for a 1TB SATA, or 89 for a USB version, you could do a 5 day rotation for 2 weeks for 900 dollars if you can get the data on 1tb. If you want to be more involved do the backups with deltas so you only do changes throughout the week and should be good. With the drives being so fast restoring through 3-4 usb drives isn't really a big deal, not like waiting 30 mins for cataloging a tape.. ~ Finally, powerful endpoint security that ISN'T a resource hog! ~ ~ http://www.sunbeltsoftware.com/Business/VIPRE-Enterprise/ ~ ~ Finally, powerful endpoint security that ISN'T a resource hog! ~ ~ http://www.sunbeltsoftware.com/Business/VIPRE-Enterprise/ ~ This message contains confidential information and is intended only for the intended recipient(s). If you are not the named recipient you should not read, distribute or copy this e-mail. Please notify the sender immediately via e-mail if you have received this e-mail by mistake; then, delete this e-mail from your system. ~ Finally, powerful endpoint security that ISN'T a resource hog! ~ ~ http://www.sunbeltsoftware.com/Business/VIPRE-Enterprise/ ~
RE: Disk based backup
Uh... ya. -sc -Original Message- From: Miguel Gonzalez [mailto:miguel_3_gonza...@yahoo.es] Sent: Wednesday, September 16, 2009 2:23 AM To: NT System Admin Issues Subject: RE: Disk based backup are LTO4 already in the market? We are getting info that won't be available until beginning of next year. The best solution right now is mixing disk and tapes backups: VTL (Virtual Tape Library). But it's a little bit pricey for a small businesses, although I believe there could be open source or free (or close to free) solutions. Tapes are good to manage and take them to a firesafe place (not only good in the case of fire but also in the case of robbery or flooding or any other disaster). We are using Netbackup at work and have saved our asses almost every week. Netbackup marks tapes that are no good so you can discard them. I've seen a business spending around $12,000 to recover data for having no backups (which is close to have a bad backup policy) because a RAID array failed after a battery replacement. We have evolved our pure-tape-LTO backups to a VTL. This is great since backups and restores from disk take nothing to be done and you can decide which information will be exported to tapes (you can keep email and user data on disk for instance). I guess you can dimension it as you want: from just an old server with a huge hard drive and a LTO tape drive to a more reliable RAID array with a robot. It always depends on your budget. Regards, Miguel --- El mié, 16/9/09, Sam Cayze sam.ca...@rollouts.com escribió: De: Sam Cayze sam.ca...@rollouts.com Asunto: RE: Disk based backup Para: NT System Admin Issues ntsysad...@lyris.sunbelt- software.com Fecha: miércoles, 16 septiembre, 2009 1:32 Sounds about right, I am getting 1,500MB/MIN (25MB/SEC) on my backups. And iirc my restores were about 20MB/Sec going to bare metal RAID5. What speeds do you see with LTO? Has the reliability of tapes increased in your opinion? Good info, thanks as always. Sam -Original Message- From: Ken Schaefer [mailto:k...@adopenstatic.com] Sent: Tuesday, September 15, 2009 11:04 PM To: NT System Admin Issues Subject: RE: Disk based backup eSata will be about 1.5x what you can get with USB only (assuming you are copying to a single target disk). I've generally found that USB2 peaks at around 15-20MB/sec, and eSATA is around 25-30MB/sec (max) With LTO4 - if you are copying from a single disk, then the limitation will be the source, not the destination. Likewise with restores, you'll probably be bottlenecked by the target if it's a single spindle. Cheers Ken -Original Message- From: Sam Cayze [mailto:sam.ca...@rollouts.com] Sent: Wednesday, 16 September 2009 1:41 PM To: NT System Admin Issues Subject: RE: Disk based backup Wow! Had no idea. I've been on eSATA drives for years now, ditched tapes for the speed and reliability. Ken, do the restore speeds also show this type of performance? Because ultimately that's what matters, right. -Original Message- From: Ken Schaefer [mailto:k...@adopenstatic.com] Sent: Tuesday, September 15, 2009 10:36 PM To: NT System Admin Issues Subject: RE: Disk based backup USB connected drives are way too slow. LTO4 alone should get you 5x-6x the speed of a USB connected drive (YMMV) Cheers Ken -Original Message- From: Benjamin Zachary - Lists [mailto:li...@levelfive.us] Sent: Wednesday, 16 September 2009 9:14 AM To: NT System Admin Issues Subject: RE: Disk based backup Why not just take some external drives and mount them in whatever you use (BEX/UB etc) and rotate the drives. At 79 bucks for a 1TB SATA, or 89 for a USB version, you could do a 5 day rotation for 2 weeks for 900 dollars if you can get the data on 1tb. If you want to be more involved do the backups with deltas so you only do changes throughout the week and should be good. With the drives being so fast restoring through 3-4 usb drives isn't really a big deal, not like waiting 30 mins for cataloging a tape.. ~ Finally, powerful endpoint security that ISN'T a resource hog! ~ ~ http://www.sunbeltsoftware.com/Business/VIPRE-Enterprise/ ~ ~ Finally, powerful endpoint security that ISN'T a resource hog! ~ ~ http://www.sunbeltsoftware.com/Business/VIPRE-Enterprise/ ~ ~ Finally, powerful endpoint security that ISN'T a resource hog! ~ ~ http://www.sunbeltsoftware.com/Business/VIPRE-Enterprise/ ~ ~ Finally, powerful endpoint security that ISN'T a resource hog! ~ ~ http://www.sunbeltsoftware.com/Business/VIPRE-Enterprise/ ~ ~ Finally, powerful endpoint security that ISN'T a resource hog! ~ ~ http://www.sunbeltsoftware.com/Business/VIPRE-Enterprise/ ~ ~ Finally, powerful endpoint security that ISN'T a resource hog! ~ ~ http
RE: Disk based backup
That's simply the maximum burst throughput range of SATA2 (original SATA was 1.5gbps). There is no way that a single disk can deliver that throughput. My testing (YMMV) is that eSATA will give you about 1.5x the speed of USB2 Cheers Ken -Original Message- From: Eldridge, Dave [mailto:d...@parkviewmc.com] Sent: Thursday, 17 September 2009 12:32 AM To: NT System Admin Issues Subject: RE: Disk based backup You would think esata throughput would be much better. I am looking at a promise tx4302 pci card that specs 3gb/sec for esata. This is for both the internal connectors and external. -Original Message- From: Erik Goldoff [mailto:egold...@gmail.com] Sent: Wednesday, September 16, 2009 8:20 AM To: NT System Admin Issues Subject: RE: Disk based backup But now wouldn't eSATA be a good alternative ? I haven't benchmarked throughput but *should* be as good as internal, right ? Erik Goldoff IT Consultant Systems, Networks, Security -Original Message- From: Ken Schaefer [mailto:k...@adopenstatic.com] Sent: Tuesday, September 15, 2009 11:36 PM To: NT System Admin Issues Subject: RE: Disk based backup USB connected drives are way too slow. LTO4 alone should get you 5x-6x the speed of a USB connected drive (YMMV) Cheers Ken -Original Message- From: Benjamin Zachary - Lists [mailto:li...@levelfive.us] Sent: Wednesday, 16 September 2009 9:14 AM To: NT System Admin Issues Subject: RE: Disk based backup Why not just take some external drives and mount them in whatever you use (BEX/UB etc) and rotate the drives. At 79 bucks for a 1TB SATA, or 89 for a USB version, you could do a 5 day rotation for 2 weeks for 900 dollars if you can get the data on 1tb. If you want to be more involved do the backups with deltas so you only do changes throughout the week and should be good. With the drives being so fast restoring through 3-4 usb drives isn't really a big deal, not like waiting 30 mins for cataloging a tape.. ~ Finally, powerful endpoint security that ISN'T a resource hog! ~ ~ http://www.sunbeltsoftware.com/Business/VIPRE-Enterprise/ ~
RE: Disk based backup
Keep an eye on Sata, Sata3 is coming fast and the speed will a HUGE difference. Not sure when the prices will come down, but I expect the demand to be huge. From: Ken Schaefer [...@adopenstatic.com] Sent: Wednesday, September 16, 2009 6:54 PM To: NT System Admin Issues Subject: RE: Disk based backup That's simply the maximum burst throughput range of SATA2 (original SATA was 1.5gbps). There is no way that a single disk can deliver that throughput. My testing (YMMV) is that eSATA will give you about 1.5x the speed of USB2 Cheers Ken -Original Message- From: Eldridge, Dave [mailto:d...@parkviewmc.com] Sent: Thursday, 17 September 2009 12:32 AM To: NT System Admin Issues Subject: RE: Disk based backup You would think esata throughput would be much better. I am looking at a promise tx4302 pci card that specs 3gb/sec for esata. This is for both the internal connectors and external. -Original Message- From: Erik Goldoff [mailto:egold...@gmail.com] Sent: Wednesday, September 16, 2009 8:20 AM To: NT System Admin Issues Subject: RE: Disk based backup But now wouldn't eSATA be a good alternative ? I haven't benchmarked throughput but *should* be as good as internal, right ? Erik Goldoff IT Consultant Systems, Networks, Security -Original Message- From: Ken Schaefer [mailto:k...@adopenstatic.com] Sent: Tuesday, September 15, 2009 11:36 PM To: NT System Admin Issues Subject: RE: Disk based backup USB connected drives are way too slow. LTO4 alone should get you 5x-6x the speed of a USB connected drive (YMMV) Cheers Ken -Original Message- From: Benjamin Zachary - Lists [mailto:li...@levelfive.us] Sent: Wednesday, 16 September 2009 9:14 AM To: NT System Admin Issues Subject: RE: Disk based backup Why not just take some external drives and mount them in whatever you use (BEX/UB etc) and rotate the drives. At 79 bucks for a 1TB SATA, or 89 for a USB version, you could do a 5 day rotation for 2 weeks for 900 dollars if you can get the data on 1tb. If you want to be more involved do the backups with deltas so you only do changes throughout the week and should be good. With the drives being so fast restoring through 3-4 usb drives isn't really a big deal, not like waiting 30 mins for cataloging a tape.. ~ Finally, powerful endpoint security that ISN'T a resource hog! ~ ~ http://www.sunbeltsoftware.com/Business/VIPRE-Enterprise/ ~ ~ Finally, powerful endpoint security that ISN'T a resource hog! ~ ~ http://www.sunbeltsoftware.com/Business/VIPRE-Enterprise/ ~
RE: Disk based backup
Hi guys, I wanted to thank everyone for their suggestions... I looked at Exagrid, DataDoimain and FalconStor, and I think I left out a key fact in my email... budget! My apologies! Exagrid and DataDomain were in the $18k to $22k range from what I saw (with their lowest-end offerings) and I didn't get a chance to see the cost of FalconStor. I paid about $5500 for my Tandberg T24 library which gave me 38TB of compressed storage (800GB/1.6TB per tape.) As far as off site storage, I hadn't actually thought about that when thinking of moving to disk based backup. That could complicate things a bit as I was just taking one backup tape per month on a Sunday and moving it off-site. Software-wise, I'm using Backup Exec 12 and it isn't killing me, so I'll probably stick with that as I still have support and maintenance agreements for it. I'm able to get a quote of about $3500 for a Tandberg T24 with a 12 slot magazine (instead of the 24 slot my current one has, where I only use 12 slots anyway) for $3500, which seems to be a good buy for the route I want to go. It's cheap, and I'll get an extended warranty with this one. Make sense to people? Thanks again for your time and help! Evan From: Andrew S. Baker [mailto:asbz...@gmail.com] Sent: Monday, September 14, 2009 9:37 PM To: NT System Admin Issues Subject: Re: Disk based backup Do you want to do pure D2D? Or would you want to look at Virtual Tape? Do you have any plans for off-site storage? Or will you replicate to a separate site? Exagrid is one option, as it FalconStor. On the software side, you can look at products like Ultrabac, unless you're happy with your existing backup vendor. -ASB: http://XeeSM.com/AndrewBaker Providing Competitive Advantage through Effective IT Leadership On Mon, Sep 14, 2009 at 6:16 PM, Evan Brastow ebras...@automatedemblem.com wrote: Hi guys, I did a search on subject headings for this year to see if I could find anything about this, but nothing jumped out at me. I have a 1-1/2 year old Tandberg Data T24 storage library and the drive just bit the dust six months out of warranty. Tandberg has told me (as expected,) If it turns out the repair and service agreement is close to the cost of a new unit, that might serve as an option for you as well. Before I go down the route of fix or replace I'm wondering if I should look into disk based backup? I'm looking to backup about 1.5 TB per night in a window that is about six hours in length between backup and verify. Anyone have disk based backup that's fast and working for them? Thanks, Evan ~ Finally, powerful endpoint security that ISN'T a resource hog! ~ ~ http://www.sunbeltsoftware.com/Business/VIPRE-Enterprise/ ~
RE: Disk based backup
BE will have dedupe built-in in the next version due out later this year. Who knows if it'll be any good, but there is a beta coming out next month. http://preview.tinyurl.com/prbz7n From: Evan Brastow [mailto:ebras...@automatedemblem.com] Sent: Tuesday, September 15, 2009 3:26 PM To: NT System Admin Issues Subject: RE: Disk based backup Hi guys, I wanted to thank everyone for their suggestions... I looked at Exagrid, DataDoimain and FalconStor, and I think I left out a key fact in my email... budget! My apologies! Exagrid and DataDomain were in the $18k to $22k range from what I saw (with their lowest-end offerings) and I didn't get a chance to see the cost of FalconStor. I paid about $5500 for my Tandberg T24 library which gave me 38TB of compressed storage (800GB/1.6TB per tape.) As far as off site storage, I hadn't actually thought about that when thinking of moving to disk based backup. That could complicate things a bit as I was just taking one backup tape per month on a Sunday and moving it off-site. Software-wise, I'm using Backup Exec 12 and it isn't killing me, so I'll probably stick with that as I still have support and maintenance agreements for it. I'm able to get a quote of about $3500 for a Tandberg T24 with a 12 slot magazine (instead of the 24 slot my current one has, where I only use 12 slots anyway) for $3500, which seems to be a good buy for the route I want to go. It's cheap, and I'll get an extended warranty with this one. Make sense to people? Thanks again for your time and help! Evan From: Andrew S. Baker [mailto:asbz...@gmail.com] Sent: Monday, September 14, 2009 9:37 PM To: NT System Admin Issues Subject: Re: Disk based backup Do you want to do pure D2D? Or would you want to look at Virtual Tape? Do you have any plans for off-site storage? Or will you replicate to a separate site? Exagrid is one option, as it FalconStor. On the software side, you can look at products like Ultrabac, unless you're happy with your existing backup vendor. -ASB: http://XeeSM.com/AndrewBaker Providing Competitive Advantage through Effective IT Leadership On Mon, Sep 14, 2009 at 6:16 PM, Evan Brastow ebras...@automatedemblem.com wrote: Hi guys, I did a search on subject headings for this year to see if I could find anything about this, but nothing jumped out at me. I have a 1-1/2 year old Tandberg Data T24 storage library and the drive just bit the dust six months out of warranty. Tandberg has told me (as expected,) If it turns out the repair and service agreement is close to the cost of a new unit, that might serve as an option for you as well. Before I go down the route of fix or replace I'm wondering if I should look into disk based backup? I'm looking to backup about 1.5 TB per night in a window that is about six hours in length between backup and verify. Anyone have disk based backup that's fast and working for them? Thanks, Evan ~ Finally, powerful endpoint security that ISN'T a resource hog! ~ ~ http://www.sunbeltsoftware.com/Business/VIPRE-Enterprise/ ~
Re: Disk based backup
FYI Backup Exec 2010 is to be released in March. This next batch of products from Symantec promises De-Dupe Everywhere. Yep uh-huh it's vaporware from (cough) Symantec... I bet that we are about to see a ton of backup products that will do de-dupe. The quotes we got from Exagrid were 2-3 timesmore than yours :-). I expect the Symantec products to be less capable than Exagrid / DataDomainEMC / etc, but at *hopefully* a small fraction of the cost. I wonder if our firm - at about 4TB nightly - has the economy of scale to use D2D. We may do D2D2T for offiste DR. We certainly can't use these product's ability for offsite delta replication to another disk array. We have no second office. I wonder if we could get a hosting service to host an offiste DR box like this... On Tue, Sep 15, 2009 at 2:26 PM, Evan Brastow ebras...@automatedemblem.com wrote: Hi guys, I wanted to thank everyone for their suggestions… I looked at Exagrid, DataDoimain and FalconStor, and I think I left out a key fact in my email… budget! My apologies! Exagrid and DataDomain were in the $18k to $22k range from what I saw (with their lowest-end offerings) and I didn’t get a chance to see the cost of FalconStor. I paid about $5500 for my Tandberg T24 library which gave me 38TB of compressed storage (800GB/1.6TB per tape.) As far as off site storage, I hadn’t actually thought about that when thinking of moving to disk based backup. That could complicate things a bit as I was just taking one backup tape per month on a Sunday and moving it off-site. Software-wise, I’m using Backup Exec 12 and it isn’t killing me, so I’ll probably stick with that as I still have support and maintenance agreements for it. I’m able to get a quote of about $3500 for a Tandberg T24 with a 12 slot magazine (instead of the 24 slot my current one has, where I only use 12 slots anyway) for $3500, which seems to be a good buy for the route I want to go. It’s cheap, and I’ll get an extended warranty with this one. Make sense to people? Thanks again for your time and help! Evan From: Andrew S. Baker [mailto:asbz...@gmail.com] Sent: Monday, September 14, 2009 9:37 PM To: NT System Admin Issues Subject: Re: Disk based backup Do you want to do pure D2D? Or would you want to look at Virtual Tape? Do you have any plans for off-site storage? Or will you replicate to a separate site? Exagrid is one option, as it FalconStor. On the software side, you can look at products like Ultrabac, unless you're happy with your existing backup vendor. -ASB: http://XeeSM.com/AndrewBaker Providing Competitive Advantage through Effective IT Leadership On Mon, Sep 14, 2009 at 6:16 PM, Evan Brastow ebras...@automatedemblem.com wrote: Hi guys, I did a search on subject headings for this year to see if I could find anything about this, but nothing jumped out at me. I have a 1-1/2 year old Tandberg Data T24 storage library and the drive just bit the dust six months out of warranty. Tandberg has told me (as expected,) “If it turns out the repair and service agreement is close to the cost of a new unit, that might serve as an option for you as well.” Before I go down the route of fix or replace I’m wondering if I should look into disk based backup? I’m looking to backup about 1.5 TB per night in a window that is about six hours in length between backup and verify. Anyone have disk based backup that’s fast and working for them? Thanks, Evan -- Devin ~ Finally, powerful endpoint security that ISN'T a resource hog! ~ ~ http://www.sunbeltsoftware.com/Business/VIPRE-Enterprise/ ~
RE: Disk based backup
Why not just take some external drives and mount them in whatever you use (BEX/UB etc) and rotate the drives. At 79 bucks for a 1TB SATA, or 89 for a USB version, you could do a 5 day rotation for 2 weeks for 900 dollars if you can get the data on 1tb. If you want to be more involved do the backups with deltas so you only do changes throughout the week and should be good. With the drives being so fast restoring through 3-4 usb drives isn't really a big deal, not like waiting 30 mins for cataloging a tape.. ~ Finally, powerful endpoint security that ISN'T a resource hog! ~ ~ http://www.sunbeltsoftware.com/Business/VIPRE-Enterprise/ ~
Re: Disk based backup
USB Drives fast? On Tue, Sep 15, 2009 at 7:14 PM, Benjamin Zachary - Lists li...@levelfive.us wrote: Why not just take some external drives and mount them in whatever you use (BEX/UB etc) and rotate the drives. At 79 bucks for a 1TB SATA, or 89 for a USB version, you could do a 5 day rotation for 2 weeks for 900 dollars if you can get the data on 1tb. If you want to be more involved do the backups with deltas so you only do changes throughout the week and should be good. With the drives being so fast restoring through 3-4 usb drives isn't really a big deal, not like waiting 30 mins for cataloging a tape.. ~ Finally, powerful endpoint security that ISN'T a resource hog! ~ ~ http://www.sunbeltsoftware.com/Business/VIPRE-Enterprise/ ~ ~ Finally, powerful endpoint security that ISN'T a resource hog! ~ ~ http://www.sunbeltsoftware.com/Business/VIPRE-Enterprise/ ~
Re: Disk based backup
On Tue, Sep 15, 2009 at 9:50 PM, Jonathan Link jonathan.l...@gmail.com wrote: USB Drives fast? For random access vs. tape? Sure! Sustained write throughput, not so much... :-) -- Ben ~ Finally, powerful endpoint security that ISN'T a resource hog! ~ ~ http://www.sunbeltsoftware.com/Business/VIPRE-Enterprise/ ~
RE: Disk based backup
USB connected drives are way too slow. LTO4 alone should get you 5x-6x the speed of a USB connected drive (YMMV) Cheers Ken -Original Message- From: Benjamin Zachary - Lists [mailto:li...@levelfive.us] Sent: Wednesday, 16 September 2009 9:14 AM To: NT System Admin Issues Subject: RE: Disk based backup Why not just take some external drives and mount them in whatever you use (BEX/UB etc) and rotate the drives. At 79 bucks for a 1TB SATA, or 89 for a USB version, you could do a 5 day rotation for 2 weeks for 900 dollars if you can get the data on 1tb. If you want to be more involved do the backups with deltas so you only do changes throughout the week and should be good. With the drives being so fast restoring through 3-4 usb drives isn't really a big deal, not like waiting 30 mins for cataloging a tape.. ~ Finally, powerful endpoint security that ISN'T a resource hog! ~ ~ http://www.sunbeltsoftware.com/Business/VIPRE-Enterprise/ ~
RE: Disk based backup
Wow! Had no idea. I've been on eSATA drives for years now, ditched tapes for the speed and reliability. Ken, do the restore speeds also show this type of performance? Because ultimately that's what matters, right. -Original Message- From: Ken Schaefer [mailto:k...@adopenstatic.com] Sent: Tuesday, September 15, 2009 10:36 PM To: NT System Admin Issues Subject: RE: Disk based backup USB connected drives are way too slow. LTO4 alone should get you 5x-6x the speed of a USB connected drive (YMMV) Cheers Ken -Original Message- From: Benjamin Zachary - Lists [mailto:li...@levelfive.us] Sent: Wednesday, 16 September 2009 9:14 AM To: NT System Admin Issues Subject: RE: Disk based backup Why not just take some external drives and mount them in whatever you use (BEX/UB etc) and rotate the drives. At 79 bucks for a 1TB SATA, or 89 for a USB version, you could do a 5 day rotation for 2 weeks for 900 dollars if you can get the data on 1tb. If you want to be more involved do the backups with deltas so you only do changes throughout the week and should be good. With the drives being so fast restoring through 3-4 usb drives isn't really a big deal, not like waiting 30 mins for cataloging a tape.. ~ Finally, powerful endpoint security that ISN'T a resource hog! ~ ~ http://www.sunbeltsoftware.com/Business/VIPRE-Enterprise/ ~ ~ Finally, powerful endpoint security that ISN'T a resource hog! ~ ~ http://www.sunbeltsoftware.com/Business/VIPRE-Enterprise/ ~
RE: Disk based backup
eSata will be about 1.5x what you can get with USB only (assuming you are copying to a single target disk). I've generally found that USB2 peaks at around 15-20MB/sec, and eSATA is around 25-30MB/sec (max) With LTO4 - if you are copying from a single disk, then the limitation will be the source, not the destination. Likewise with restores, you'll probably be bottlenecked by the target if it's a single spindle. Cheers Ken -Original Message- From: Sam Cayze [mailto:sam.ca...@rollouts.com] Sent: Wednesday, 16 September 2009 1:41 PM To: NT System Admin Issues Subject: RE: Disk based backup Wow! Had no idea. I've been on eSATA drives for years now, ditched tapes for the speed and reliability. Ken, do the restore speeds also show this type of performance? Because ultimately that's what matters, right. -Original Message- From: Ken Schaefer [mailto:k...@adopenstatic.com] Sent: Tuesday, September 15, 2009 10:36 PM To: NT System Admin Issues Subject: RE: Disk based backup USB connected drives are way too slow. LTO4 alone should get you 5x-6x the speed of a USB connected drive (YMMV) Cheers Ken -Original Message- From: Benjamin Zachary - Lists [mailto:li...@levelfive.us] Sent: Wednesday, 16 September 2009 9:14 AM To: NT System Admin Issues Subject: RE: Disk based backup Why not just take some external drives and mount them in whatever you use (BEX/UB etc) and rotate the drives. At 79 bucks for a 1TB SATA, or 89 for a USB version, you could do a 5 day rotation for 2 weeks for 900 dollars if you can get the data on 1tb. If you want to be more involved do the backups with deltas so you only do changes throughout the week and should be good. With the drives being so fast restoring through 3-4 usb drives isn't really a big deal, not like waiting 30 mins for cataloging a tape.. ~ Finally, powerful endpoint security that ISN'T a resource hog! ~ ~ http://www.sunbeltsoftware.com/Business/VIPRE-Enterprise/ ~ ~ Finally, powerful endpoint security that ISN'T a resource hog! ~ ~ http://www.sunbeltsoftware.com/Business/VIPRE-Enterprise/ ~ ~ Finally, powerful endpoint security that ISN'T a resource hog! ~ ~ http://www.sunbeltsoftware.com/Business/VIPRE-Enterprise/ ~
RE: Disk based backup
Sounds about right, I am getting 1,500MB/MIN (25MB/SEC) on my backups. And iirc my restores were about 20MB/Sec going to bare metal RAID5. What speeds do you see with LTO? Has the reliability of tapes increased in your opinion? Good info, thanks as always. Sam -Original Message- From: Ken Schaefer [mailto:k...@adopenstatic.com] Sent: Tuesday, September 15, 2009 11:04 PM To: NT System Admin Issues Subject: RE: Disk based backup eSata will be about 1.5x what you can get with USB only (assuming you are copying to a single target disk). I've generally found that USB2 peaks at around 15-20MB/sec, and eSATA is around 25-30MB/sec (max) With LTO4 - if you are copying from a single disk, then the limitation will be the source, not the destination. Likewise with restores, you'll probably be bottlenecked by the target if it's a single spindle. Cheers Ken -Original Message- From: Sam Cayze [mailto:sam.ca...@rollouts.com] Sent: Wednesday, 16 September 2009 1:41 PM To: NT System Admin Issues Subject: RE: Disk based backup Wow! Had no idea. I've been on eSATA drives for years now, ditched tapes for the speed and reliability. Ken, do the restore speeds also show this type of performance? Because ultimately that's what matters, right. -Original Message- From: Ken Schaefer [mailto:k...@adopenstatic.com] Sent: Tuesday, September 15, 2009 10:36 PM To: NT System Admin Issues Subject: RE: Disk based backup USB connected drives are way too slow. LTO4 alone should get you 5x-6x the speed of a USB connected drive (YMMV) Cheers Ken -Original Message- From: Benjamin Zachary - Lists [mailto:li...@levelfive.us] Sent: Wednesday, 16 September 2009 9:14 AM To: NT System Admin Issues Subject: RE: Disk based backup Why not just take some external drives and mount them in whatever you use (BEX/UB etc) and rotate the drives. At 79 bucks for a 1TB SATA, or 89 for a USB version, you could do a 5 day rotation for 2 weeks for 900 dollars if you can get the data on 1tb. If you want to be more involved do the backups with deltas so you only do changes throughout the week and should be good. With the drives being so fast restoring through 3-4 usb drives isn't really a big deal, not like waiting 30 mins for cataloging a tape.. ~ Finally, powerful endpoint security that ISN'T a resource hog! ~ ~ http://www.sunbeltsoftware.com/Business/VIPRE-Enterprise/ ~ ~ Finally, powerful endpoint security that ISN'T a resource hog! ~ ~ http://www.sunbeltsoftware.com/Business/VIPRE-Enterprise/ ~ ~ Finally, powerful endpoint security that ISN'T a resource hog! ~ ~ http://www.sunbeltsoftware.com/Business/VIPRE-Enterprise/ ~ ~ Finally, powerful endpoint security that ISN'T a resource hog! ~ ~ http://www.sunbeltsoftware.com/Business/VIPRE-Enterprise/ ~
Disk based backup
Hi guys, I did a search on subject headings for this year to see if I could find anything about this, but nothing jumped out at me. I have a 1-1/2 year old Tandberg Data T24 storage library and the drive just bit the dust six months out of warranty. Tandberg has told me (as expected,) If it turns out the repair and service agreement is close to the cost of a new unit, that might serve as an option for you as well. Before I go down the route of fix or replace I'm wondering if I should look into disk based backup? I'm looking to backup about 1.5 TB per night in a window that is about six hours in length between backup and verify. Anyone have disk based backup that's fast and working for them? Thanks, Evan ~ Finally, powerful endpoint security that ISN'T a resource hog! ~ ~ http://www.sunbeltsoftware.com/Business/VIPRE-Enterprise/ ~
RE: Disk based backup
EMC Avamar Jonathan L. Raper, A+, MCSA, MCSE Technology Coordinator Eagle Physicians Associates, PA jra...@eaglemds.comBLOCKED::mailto:%20jra...@eaglemds.com www.eaglemds.comBLOCKED::http://www.eaglemds.com/ From: Evan Brastow [mailto:ebras...@automatedemblem.com] Sent: Monday, September 14, 2009 6:16 PM To: NT System Admin Issues Subject: Disk based backup Hi guys, I did a search on subject headings for this year to see if I could find anything about this, but nothing jumped out at me. I have a 1-1/2 year old Tandberg Data T24 storage library and the drive just bit the dust six months out of warranty. Tandberg has told me (as expected,) If it turns out the repair and service agreement is close to the cost of a new unit, that might serve as an option for you as well. Before I go down the route of fix or replace I'm wondering if I should look into disk based backup? I'm looking to backup about 1.5 TB per night in a window that is about six hours in length between backup and verify. Anyone have disk based backup that's fast and working for them? Thanks, Evan Any medical information contained in this electronic message is CONFIDENTIAL and privileged. It is unlawful for unauthorized persons to view, copy, disclose, or disseminate CONFIDENTIAL information. This electronic message may contain information that is confidential and/or legally privileged. It is intended only for the use of the individual(s) and/or entity named as recipients in the message. If you are not an intended recipient of this message, please notify the sender immediately and delete this material from your computer. Do not deliver, distribute or copy this message, and do not disclose its contents or take any action in reliance on the information that it contains. ~ Finally, powerful endpoint security that ISN'T a resource hog! ~ ~ http://www.sunbeltsoftware.com/Business/VIPRE-Enterprise/ ~
RE: Disk based backup
Check out Data Domain. From: Evan Brastow [mailto:ebras...@automatedemblem.com] Sent: Monday, September 14, 2009 3:16 PM To: NT System Admin Issues Subject: Disk based backup Hi guys, I did a search on subject headings for this year to see if I could find anything about this, but nothing jumped out at me. I have a 1-1/2 year old Tandberg Data T24 storage library and the drive just bit the dust six months out of warranty. Tandberg has told me (as expected,) If it turns out the repair and service agreement is close to the cost of a new unit, that might serve as an option for you as well. Before I go down the route of fix or replace I'm wondering if I should look into disk based backup? I'm looking to backup about 1.5 TB per night in a window that is about six hours in length between backup and verify. Anyone have disk based backup that's fast and working for them? Thanks, Evan ~ Finally, powerful endpoint security that ISN'T a resource hog! ~ ~ http://www.sunbeltsoftware.com/Business/VIPRE-Enterprise/ ~
RE: Disk based backup
+1 We have a DD530 here and it has been well worth the cost. A quick glance at the nightly emails shows that I threw about 2.8TB of raw data at it last Friday that took about 50GB or so of actual disk space. From: Martin Blackstone [mailto:mblackst...@gmail.com] Sent: Mon 9/14/2009 6:30 PM To: NT System Admin Issues Subject: RE: Disk based backup Check out Data Domain. From: Evan Brastow [mailto:ebras...@automatedemblem.com] Sent: Monday, September 14, 2009 3:16 PM To: NT System Admin Issues Subject: Disk based backup Hi guys, I did a search on subject headings for this year to see if I could find anything about this, but nothing jumped out at me. I have a 1-1/2 year old Tandberg Data T24 storage library and the drive just bit the dust six months out of warranty. Tandberg has told me (as expected,) If it turns out the repair and service agreement is close to the cost of a new unit, that might serve as an option for you as well. Before I go down the route of fix or replace I'm wondering if I should look into disk based backup? I'm looking to backup about 1.5 TB per night in a window that is about six hours in length between backup and verify. Anyone have disk based backup that's fast and working for them? Thanks, Evan ~ Finally, powerful endpoint security that ISN'T a resource hog! ~ ~ http://www.sunbeltsoftware.com/Business/VIPRE-Enterprise/ ~
RE: Disk based backup
Mind if I ask cost? -Marty - Sent from my Windows Mobile® phone. From: Richard Stovall richard.stov...@researchdata.com Sent: Monday, September 14, 2009 4:42 PM To: NT System Admin Issues ntsysadmin@lyris.sunbelt-software.com Subject: RE: Disk based backup +1 We have a DD530 here and it has been well worth the cost. A quick glance at the nightly emails shows that I threw about 2.8TB of raw data at it last Friday that took about 50GB or so of actual disk space. From: Martin Blackstone [mailto:mblackst...@gmail.com] Sent: Mon 9/14/2009 6:30 PM To: NT System Admin Issues Subject: RE: Disk based backup Check out Data Domain. From: Evan Brastow [mailto:ebras...@automatedemblem.com] Sent: Monday, September 14, 2009 3:16 PM To: NT System Admin Issues Subject: Disk based backup Hi guys, I did a search on subject headings for this year to see if I could find anything about this, but nothing jumped out at me. I have a 1-1/2 year old Tandberg Data T24 storage library and the drive just bit the dust six months out of warranty. Tandberg has told me (as expected,) “If it turns out the repair and service agreement is close to the cost of a new unit, that might serve as an option for you as well.” Before I go down the route of fix or replace I’m wondering if I should look into disk based backup? I’m looking to backup about 1.5 TB per night in a window that is about six hours in length between backup and verify. Anyone have disk based backup that’s fast and working for them? Thanks, Evan ~ Finally, powerful endpoint security that ISN'T a resource hog! ~ ~ http://www.sunbeltsoftware.com/Business/VIPRE-Enterprise/ ~
RE: Disk based backup
Exagrid! From: Evan Brastow [mailto:ebras...@automatedemblem.com] Sent: Monday, September 14, 2009 6:16 PM To: NT System Admin Issues Subject: Disk based backup Hi guys, I did a search on subject headings for this year to see if I could find anything about this, but nothing jumped out at me. I have a 1-1/2 year old Tandberg Data T24 storage library and the drive just bit the dust six months out of warranty. Tandberg has told me (as expected,) If it turns out the repair and service agreement is close to the cost of a new unit, that might serve as an option for you as well. Before I go down the route of fix or replace I'm wondering if I should look into disk based backup? I'm looking to backup about 1.5 TB per night in a window that is about six hours in length between backup and verify. Anyone have disk based backup that's fast and working for them? Thanks, Evan ~ Finally, powerful endpoint security that ISN'T a resource hog! ~ ~ http://www.sunbeltsoftware.com/Business/VIPRE-Enterprise/ ~
RE: Disk based backup
DD has a truly GREAT product; however it will not shrink your backup window if that is a concern. The backup application still has to send ALL of the data to the DD device for every full backup that you do. Avamar will shrink your backup window, as the De-dup is source based, not target based. The downside to Avamar is that it is a rip and replace of your existing backup strategy. If you LOVE your backup process and are only seeking to replace your failed tape library, then Avamar won't be a good fit. However, if you've had headaches with your backup process/app, your data footprint is growing (whose isn't), and you're considering changing your backup app, I would recommend you consider Avamar. Also, EMC purchased DD, so I would be cautious about investing in the DD product until you see what EMC does with the product line... http://www.emc.com/about/news/press/2009/20090723-01.htm HTH - Cheers, Jonathan L. Raper, A+, MCSA, MCSE Technology Coordinator Eagle Physicians Associates, PA jra...@eaglemds.comBLOCKED::mailto:%20jra...@eaglemds.com www.eaglemds.comBLOCKED::http://www.eaglemds.com/ From: Richard Stovall [mailto:richard.stov...@researchdata.com] Sent: Monday, September 14, 2009 7:38 PM To: NT System Admin Issues Subject: RE: Disk based backup +1 We have a DD530 here and it has been well worth the cost. A quick glance at the nightly emails shows that I threw about 2.8TB of raw data at it last Friday that took about 50GB or so of actual disk space. From: Martin Blackstone [mailto:mblackst...@gmail.com] Sent: Mon 9/14/2009 6:30 PM To: NT System Admin Issues Subject: RE: Disk based backup Check out Data Domain. From: Evan Brastow [mailto:ebras...@automatedemblem.com] Sent: Monday, September 14, 2009 3:16 PM To: NT System Admin Issues Subject: Disk based backup Hi guys, I did a search on subject headings for this year to see if I could find anything about this, but nothing jumped out at me. I have a 1-1/2 year old Tandberg Data T24 storage library and the drive just bit the dust six months out of warranty. Tandberg has told me (as expected,) If it turns out the repair and service agreement is close to the cost of a new unit, that might serve as an option for you as well. Before I go down the route of fix or replace I'm wondering if I should look into disk based backup? I'm looking to backup about 1.5 TB per night in a window that is about six hours in length between backup and verify. Anyone have disk based backup that's fast and working for them? Thanks, Evan Any medical information contained in this electronic message is CONFIDENTIAL and privileged. It is unlawful for unauthorized persons to view, copy, disclose, or disseminate CONFIDENTIAL information. This electronic message may contain information that is confidential and/or legally privileged. It is intended only for the use of the individual(s) and/or entity named as recipients in the message. If you are not an intended recipient of this message, please notify the sender immediately and delete this material from your computer. Do not deliver, distribute or copy this message, and do not disclose its contents or take any action in reliance on the information that it contains. ~ Finally, powerful endpoint security that ISN'T a resource hog! ~ ~ http://www.sunbeltsoftware.com/Business/VIPRE-Enterprise/ ~
