Re: [osol-discuss] [ogb-discuss] Nameclash on svn_77 because Sun is ignoring PSARC discussions
I was not referring to sponsors -- the work of making star compatible with tar(1) when executed as tar is yours to do, and much of the other work is yours too, but if you do this as someone outside SWAN then you'll be getting a sponsor to help with certain tasks (and either way you'll need someone to sponsor your ARC cases, if any are needed). That work is not needed nor required for the integration of star as star. It is only required when star is to replace tar for which no ARC case exists at this time. Casper ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] [ogb-discuss] Nameclash on svn_77 because Sun is ignoring PSARC discussions
Simon Phipps [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Dec 19, 2007, at 15:45, Joerg Schilling wrote: Once it has been verified that it is possible to contribute to OpenSolaris I am happy to do so but please note that: Do you have reasons to believe this is not the case? I understood the request-sponsor process to be working reasonably well. Is there any reason why you don't reply to simple personal mail questions? I send you one yesterday and anotherone today. As you did reply to other mail, it does not look to be lack of time. Jörg -- EMail:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (home) Jörg Schilling D-13353 Berlin [EMAIL PROTECTED](uni) [EMAIL PROTECTED] (work) Blog: http://schily.blogspot.com/ URL: http://cdrecord.berlios.de/old/private/ ftp://ftp.berlios.de/pub/schily ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] [ogb-discuss] Nameclash on svn_77 because Sun is ignoring PSARC discussions
On Fri, 14 Dec 2007, Joerg Schilling wrote: As an example, you might check for compare. This is a program I maintain since 1984 that is similar to cmp(1). I'm confused: Why not just submit patches to make cmp faster? Why the need for a functionally-similar (identical?) but new utility? regards, -- Paul Jakma, Solaris Networking Sun Microsystems, Scotland http://opensolaris.org/os/project/quagga tel: EMEA x73150 / +44 15066 73150 ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] [ogb-discuss] Nameclash on svn_77 because Sun is ignoring PSARC discussions
Paul Jakma [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Fri, 14 Dec 2007, Joerg Schilling wrote: As an example, you might check for compare. This is a program I maintain since 1984 that is similar to cmp(1). I'm confused: Why not just submit patches to make cmp faster? Why the need for a functionally-similar (identical?) but new utility? Looks like you are missing the fact that cmp sources have not been available when compare has been created. Also note that the compare -a output is better readable than the one from cmp. For this reason, compare is used on a dayly base, something that does not apply to e.g. imagemagic. Jörg -- EMail:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (home) Jörg Schilling D-13353 Berlin [EMAIL PROTECTED](uni) [EMAIL PROTECTED] (work) Blog: http://schily.blogspot.com/ URL: http://cdrecord.berlios.de/old/private/ ftp://ftp.berlios.de/pub/schily ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] [ogb-discuss] Nameclash on svn_77 because Sun is ignoring PSARC discussions
Joerg Schilling wrote: Paul Jakma [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Fri, 14 Dec 2007, Joerg Schilling wrote: As an example, you might check for compare. This is a program I maintain since 1984 that is similar to cmp(1). I'm confused: Why not just submit patches to make cmp faster? Why the need for a functionally-similar (identical?) but new utility? Looks like you are missing the fact that cmp sources have not been available when compare has been created. Also note that the compare -a output is better readable than the one from cmp. I believe Paul was suggesting that you could *now* use the knowledge you gained in writing your compare(1) to improved the now available in source form cmp(1) ? As some other OpenSolaris contributor has already done. I personally think this would be possible even if it means a complete replacement of cmp(1) with your compare(1) - providing your compare is 100% compatible (modulo extensions). -- Darren J Moffat ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] [ogb-discuss] Nameclash on svn_77 because Sun is ignoring PSARC discussions
Joerg Schilling wrote: For this reason, compare is used on a dayly base, something that does not apply to e.g. imagemagic. Depends on the usage of the system. -- Darren J Moffat ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] [ogb-discuss] Nameclash on svn_77 because Sun is ignoring PSARC discussions
Darren J Moffat [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I believe Paul was suggesting that you could *now* use the knowledge you gained in writing your compare(1) to improved the now available in source form cmp(1) ? As some other OpenSolaris contributor has already done. I personally think this would be possible even if it means a complete replacement of cmp(1) with your compare(1) - providing your compare is 100% compatible (modulo extensions). Once it has been verified that it is possible to contribute to OpenSolaris I am happy to do so but please note that: - The better readable output from compare is not compatible with the POSIX cmp definition - One reason why compare is faster is that it by default does not count lines wich is also not compatible with the POSIX cmp definition although nobody usually needs this feature. It is sometimes easier not to be forced to be 100% compatible to POSIX ;-) Jörg -- EMail:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (home) Jörg Schilling D-13353 Berlin [EMAIL PROTECTED](uni) [EMAIL PROTECTED] (work) Blog: http://schily.blogspot.com/ URL: http://cdrecord.berlios.de/old/private/ ftp://ftp.berlios.de/pub/schily ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] [ogb-discuss] Nameclash on svn_77 because Sun is ignoring PSARC discussions
Joerg Schilling wrote: Darren J Moffat [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I believe Paul was suggesting that you could *now* use the knowledge you gained in writing your compare(1) to improved the now available in source form cmp(1) ? As some other OpenSolaris contributor has already done. I personally think this would be possible even if it means a complete replacement of cmp(1) with your compare(1) - providing your compare is 100% compatible (modulo extensions). Once it has been verified that it is possible to contribute to OpenSolaris Lots of people have, even your fellow country men. You produce the diffs and ask on [EMAIL PROTECTED] for help. If you don't do the later part it will never happen. I am happy to do so but please note that: - The better readable output from compare is not compatible with the POSIX cmp definition - One reason why compare is faster is that it by default does not count lines wich is also not compatible with the POSIX cmp definition although nobody usually needs this feature. Hmn that could be a problem but we could resolve that by having /usr/xpg?/bin/cmp. -- Darren J Moffat ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] [ogb-discuss] Nameclash on svn_77 because Sun is ignoring PSARC discussions
On Dec 19, 2007, at 15:45, Joerg Schilling wrote: Once it has been verified that it is possible to contribute to OpenSolaris I am happy to do so but please note that: Do you have reasons to believe this is not the case? I understood the request-sponsor process to be working reasonably well. S. ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] [ogb-discuss] Nameclash on svn_77 because Sun is ignoring PSARC discussions
Joerg Schilling wrote: Paul Jakma [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Fri, 14 Dec 2007, Joerg Schilling wrote: As an example, you might check for compare. This is a program I maintain since 1984 that is similar to cmp(1). I'm confused: Why not just submit patches to make cmp faster? Why the need for a functionally-similar (identical?) but new utility? Looks like you are missing the fact that cmp sources have not been available when compare has been created. Also note that the compare -a output is better readable than the one from cmp. For this reason, compare is used on a dayly base, something that does not apply to e.g. imagemagic. Sorry Jörg, but I've been in the Unix business for the best part of 30 years (since the CS department used to run version 7 without a root password, so that you could fix your own problems). I had actually heard of your rewrite of cmp a while back, but never found the need to install it. I use cmp maybe weekly; I personally use ImageMagick several times a day, and have scripts that run assorted commands from it several times an hour. The ImageMagick people made some really bad choices over command names as far as I'm concerned - I think `convert' and `identify' are really bad choices - but you get used to it. The sky's not going to fall. It's certainly not Sun's fault or the fault of any community around here. Saying xxx command runs on every system, but on Solaris it's called imgxxx is not very productive. The change from dump to ufsdump between SunOS 4 and Solaris 2 caused me enough grief ... I think you need to chill. Rob -- E-Mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] PHONE: +44 24 7652 3037 Rob McMahon, IT Services, Warwick University, Coventry, CV4 7AL, England ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] [ogb-discuss] Nameclash on svn_77 because Sun is ignoring PSARC discussions
I'm confused: Why not just submit patches to make cmp faster? Why the need for a functionally-similar (identical?) but new utility? Now that's a good idea! This message posted from opensolaris.org ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] [ogb-discuss] Nameclash on svn_77 because Sun is ignoring PSARC discussions
On Wed, Dec 19, 2007 at 04:45:19PM +0100, Joerg Schilling wrote: Darren J Moffat [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I believe Paul was suggesting that you could *now* use the knowledge you gained in writing your compare(1) to improved the now available in source form cmp(1) ? As some other OpenSolaris contributor has already done. I personally think this would be possible even if it means a complete replacement of cmp(1) with your compare(1) - providing your compare is 100% compatible (modulo extensions). Once it has been verified that it is possible to contribute to OpenSolaris I am happy to do so but please note that: It has been. But you seem to be willfully and selectively blind here. You know what the story is and that story is that the ARC has screwed you, so you give up instead of continuing. Prove me wrong, do it by actually going through the motions to get start and friends integrated. - The better readable output from compare is not compatible with the POSIX cmp definition Ooops, you've got to fix that if your compare is to replace cmp(1). Add an option to output the new style of output. Alternatively see below. - One reason why compare is faster is that it by default does not count lines wich is also not compatible with the POSIX cmp definition although nobody usually needs this feature. Well, when comparing obviously binary files (well, it's not always easy to tell) then line numbers are meaningless... But, are you sure this is it? cmp(1) uses STDIO for goodness' sakes! I'm sure cmp(1) could be much faster if it didn't use STDIO (e.g., mmap(2)ing files or windows of files, madvise(2)ing MADV_SEQUENTIAL, and then comparing every byte, noting newlines). It is sometimes easier not to be forced to be 100% compatible to POSIX ;-) Or you could rename your compare to something else that conflicts neither with the existing cmp(1) nor the new compare(1) (yes, it came in before yours and now you're not happy; c'est la vie). ecmp, fcmp, ... four letters long is better than seven -- less typing. Nico -- ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] [ogb-discuss] Nameclash on svn_77 because Sun is ignoring PSARC discussions
Simon Phipps [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Dec 19, 2007, at 15:45, Joerg Schilling wrote: Once it has been verified that it is possible to contribute to OpenSolaris I am happy to do so but please note that: Do you have reasons to believe this is not the case? I understood the request-sponsor process to be working reasonably well. I am trying this now since a longe time than request-sponsor exists Jörg -- EMail:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (home) Jörg Schilling D-13353 Berlin [EMAIL PROTECTED](uni) [EMAIL PROTECTED] (work) Blog: http://schily.blogspot.com/ URL: http://cdrecord.berlios.de/old/private/ ftp://ftp.berlios.de/pub/schily ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] [ogb-discuss] Nameclash on svn_77 because Sun is ignoring PSARC discussions
Nicolas Williams [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: - The better readable output from compare is not compatible with the POSIX cmp definition Ooops, you've got to fix that if your compare is to replace cmp(1). Add an option to output the new style of output. Alternatively see below. I never intended to call my compare cmp. It is sometimes easier not to be forced to be 100% compatible to POSIX ;-) Or you could rename your compare to something else that conflicts neither with the existing cmp(1) nor the new compare(1) (yes, it came in before yours and now you're not happy; c'est la vie). ecmp, fcmp, ... four letters long is better than seven -- less typing. If someone starts to use a name that has been in use since 20 years before, this entity needs to change the name to something that does not conflict. Jörg -- EMail:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (home) Jörg Schilling D-13353 Berlin [EMAIL PROTECTED](uni) [EMAIL PROTECTED] (work) Blog: http://schily.blogspot.com/ URL: http://cdrecord.berlios.de/old/private/ ftp://ftp.berlios.de/pub/schily ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] [ogb-discuss] Nameclash on svn_77 because Sun is ignoring PSARC discussions
Joerg Schilling wrote: Simon Phipps [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Dec 19, 2007, at 15:45, Joerg Schilling wrote: Once it has been verified that it is possible to contribute to OpenSolaris I am happy to do so but please note that: Do you have reasons to believe this is not the case? I understood the request-sponsor process to be working reasonably well. I am trying this now since a longe time than request-sponsor exists If you haven't tried request-sponsor, then you haven't tried contributing to OpenSolaris, and are still stuck in the pre-OpenSolaris mode of trying to get code into Solaris, which is near impossible for an outsider. Fortunately, OpenSolaris is here now - try the new process. -- -Alan Coopersmith- [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sun Microsystems, Inc. - X Window System Engineering ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] [ogb-discuss] Nameclash on svn_77 because Sun is ignoring PSARC discussions
On Wed, Dec 19, 2007 at 05:56:49PM +0100, Joerg Schilling wrote: Or you could rename your compare to something else that conflicts neither with the existing cmp(1) nor the new compare(1) (yes, it came in before yours and now you're not happy; c'est la vie). ecmp, fcmp, ... four letters long is better than seven -- less typing. If someone starts to use a name that has been in use since 20 years before, this entity needs to change the name to something that does not conflict. It happened. Oh well. Now you might want to finish the task of integrating star before someone appropriates that command name for something else... :/ And yes, a registry that all Linux/*BSDs/OpenSolaris distros/c-teams could use would be cool. Nico -- ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] [ogb-discuss] Nameclash on svn_77 because Sun is ignoring PSARC discussions
Nicolas Williams [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Wed, Dec 19, 2007 at 05:56:49PM +0100, Joerg Schilling wrote: Or you could rename your compare to something else that conflicts neither with the existing cmp(1) nor the new compare(1) (yes, it came in before yours and now you're not happy; c'est la vie). ecmp, fcmp, ... four letters long is better than seven -- less typing. If someone starts to use a name that has been in use since 20 years before, this entity needs to change the name to something that does not conflict. It happened. Oh well. Now you might want to finish the task of integrating star before someone appropriates that command name for something else... :/ This does not depend on me as I am ready and waiting sice quite some time. And yes, a registry that all Linux/*BSDs/OpenSolaris distros/c-teams could use would be cool. You find one at Sourceforge.net, one at freshmeat.net and one at developers.berlios.de/sourcewell.berlios.de and a smaller one at savannah.org It may be that there will be a new common registry in one or two years. Jörg -- EMail:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (home) Jörg Schilling D-13353 Berlin [EMAIL PROTECTED](uni) [EMAIL PROTECTED] (work) Blog: http://schily.blogspot.com/ URL: http://cdrecord.berlios.de/old/private/ ftp://ftp.berlios.de/pub/schily ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] [ogb-discuss] Nameclash on svn_77 because Sun is ignoring PSARC discussions
Joerg Schilling wrote: Nicolas Williams [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Wed, Dec 19, 2007 at 05:56:49PM +0100, Joerg Schilling wrote: Or you could rename your compare to something else that conflicts neither with the existing cmp(1) nor the new compare(1) (yes, it came in before yours and now you're not happy; c'est la vie). ecmp, fcmp, ... four letters long is better than seven -- less typing. If someone starts to use a name that has been in use since 20 years before, this entity needs to change the name to something that does not conflict. It happened. Oh well. Now you might want to finish the task of integrating star before someone appropriates that command name for something else... :/ This does not depend on me as I am ready and waiting sice quite some time. Please point to the message in the opensolaris.org mailman archives where you requested a sponsor to integrate star. I would have expected to see this on request-sponsor@ or [EMAIL PROTECTED] Anything you did before OpenSolaris existed is no longer relevant, OpenSolaris changed the world. And yes, a registry that all Linux/*BSDs/OpenSolaris distros/c-teams could use would be cool. You find one at Sourceforge.net, one at freshmeat.net and one at developers.berlios.de/sourcewell.berlios.de and a smaller one at savannah.org It obviously doesn't work then because freshmeat.net lists both star and ImageMagic. -- Darren J Moffat ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] [ogb-discuss] Nameclash on svn_77 because Sun is ignoring PSARC discussions
Nicolas Williams [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Wed, Dec 19, 2007 at 06:36:13PM +0100, Joerg Schilling wrote: It happened. Oh well. Now you might want to finish the task of integrating star before someone appropriates that command name for something else... :/ This does not depend on me as I am ready and waiting sice quite some time. It most definitely does depend on you since noone is getting paid to do it and noone is volunteering to do it either, which leaves you as the party with the most interest in volunteering to do it. If integration only works with help from Sun employees and if Sun employees do not help, star integration will never be able to happen. Jörg -- EMail:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (home) Jörg Schilling D-13353 Berlin [EMAIL PROTECTED](uni) [EMAIL PROTECTED] (work) Blog: http://schily.blogspot.com/ URL: http://cdrecord.berlios.de/old/private/ ftp://ftp.berlios.de/pub/schily ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] [ogb-discuss] Nameclash on svn_77 because Sun is ignoring PSARC discussions
Joerg Schilling wrote: Nicolas Williams [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Wed, Dec 19, 2007 at 05:56:49PM +0100, Joerg Schilling wrote: Or you could rename your compare to something else that conflicts neither with the existing cmp(1) nor the new compare(1) (yes, it came in before yours and now you're not happy; c'est la vie). ecmp, fcmp, ... four letters long is better than seven -- less typing. If someone starts to use a name that has been in use since 20 years before, this entity needs to change the name to something that does not conflict. It happened. Oh well. Now you might want to finish the task of integrating star before someone appropriates that command name for something else... :/ This does not depend on me as I am ready and waiting sice quite some time. It completely depends on you. The community is not going to beat a path to your door demanding to integrate star. You have to make the proactive measures to integrate your work via the process that everyone else in the community is using. Nobody ever got married by sitting at home doing nothing waiting for the perfect spouse to come waltzing through their front door. cheers, steve -- stephen lau | [EMAIL PROTECTED] | www.whacked.net ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] [ogb-discuss] Nameclash on svn_77 because Sun is ignoring PSARC discussions
Joerg Schilling wrote: Nicolas Williams [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Wed, Dec 19, 2007 at 06:36:13PM +0100, Joerg Schilling wrote: It happened. Oh well. Now you might want to finish the task of integrating star before someone appropriates that command name for something else... :/ This does not depend on me as I am ready and waiting sice quite some time. It most definitely does depend on you since noone is getting paid to do it and noone is volunteering to do it either, which leaves you as the party with the most interest in volunteering to do it. If integration only works with help from Sun employees and if Sun employees do not help, star integration will never be able to happen. As I mentioned in an earlier email, please point me to your email on request-sponsor where you asked for help integrating star. If you indeed asked for help, and got a lack of response - then yes, the process is broken. cheers, steve -- stephen lau | [EMAIL PROTECTED] | www.whacked.net ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] [ogb-discuss] Nameclash on svn_77 because Sun is ignoring PSARC discussions
On Wed, Dec 19, 2007 at 06:36:13PM +0100, Joerg Schilling wrote: It happened. Oh well. Now you might want to finish the task of integrating star before someone appropriates that command name for something else... :/ This does not depend on me as I am ready and waiting sice quite some time. It most definitely does depend on you since noone is getting paid to do it and noone is volunteering to do it either, which leaves you as the party with the most interest in volunteering to do it. And yes, a registry that all Linux/*BSDs/OpenSolaris distros/c-teams could use would be cool. You find one at Sourceforge.net, one at freshmeat.net and one at developers.berlios.de/sourcewell.berlios.de and a smaller one at savannah.org No. The distro maintainers, c-teams, etcera, have to honor such a registry in order for it to be useful in preventing conflicts. ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] [ogb-discuss] Nameclash on svn_77 because Sun is ignoring PSARC discussions
On Wed, Dec 19, 2007 at 06:43:02PM +0100, Joerg Schilling wrote: Nicolas Williams [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It most definitely does depend on you since noone is getting paid to do it and noone is volunteering to do it either, which leaves you as the party with the most interest in volunteering to do it. If integration only works with help from Sun employees and if Sun employees do not help, star integration will never be able to happen. I was not referring to sponsors -- the work of making star compatible with tar(1) when executed as tar is yours to do, and much of the other work is yours too, but if you do this as someone outside SWAN then you'll be getting a sponsor to help with certain tasks (and either way you'll need someone to sponsor your ARC cases, if any are needed). I don't know if a sponsor will be assigned when you ask for one, or whether all potential sponsors can refuse to do it, or what. (Yes, I should know; I'm sure someone who does know will tell us.) Nico -- ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] [ogb-discuss] Nameclash on svn_77 because Sun is ignoring PSARC discussions
Mark J Musante [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Wed, 19 Dec 2007, Joerg Schilling wrote: If integration only works with help from Sun employees and if Sun employees do not help, star integration will never be able to happen. This is akin to saying If I never get in my car, and I never turn the key, then the car will never start. It's a true statement, but ultimately meaningless. You are trying to rewrite history... The star integration project started in August 2002. It was originally a rmt replacement project because Sun urgently needs a better, more secure and more interoperable rmt server. Later it was enhanced to also add star to Solaris. It is really stange to see that some people from Sun like to ignore facts. It is Sun that is interested in the integration but it also Sun that tries to prevent it now. I am prepared but there is some work I cannot do. Jörg -- EMail:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (home) Jörg Schilling D-13353 Berlin [EMAIL PROTECTED](uni) [EMAIL PROTECTED] (work) Blog: http://schily.blogspot.com/ URL: http://cdrecord.berlios.de/old/private/ ftp://ftp.berlios.de/pub/schily ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] [ogb-discuss] Nameclash on svn_77 because Sun is ignoring PSARC discussions
On Wed, 19 Dec 2007, Joerg Schilling wrote: Mark J Musante [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Wed, 19 Dec 2007, Joerg Schilling wrote: If integration only works with help from Sun employees and if Sun employees do not help, star integration will never be able to happen. This is akin to saying If I never get in my car, and I never turn the key, then the car will never start. It's a true statement, but ultimately meaningless. You are trying to rewrite history... Most on this list are not interested in history. We're interested in making OpenSolaris the best OS on the planet. History lessons are not relevant towards meeting those goals. The star integration project started in August 2002. This is not history; in internet time, this is simply *ancient* history and is of no interest to me (or most others on the OpenSolaris project). I'm interested in today and yesterday, and possibly last month I'm not even very interested in build 52 and I'm about to upgrade a machine running build 68. It was originally a rmt replacement project because Sun urgently needs a better, more secure and more interoperable rmt server. Later it was enhanced to also add star to Solaris. If you see a sense of urgency, when are you going to actually *do* something about it? It is really stange to see that some people from Sun like to ignore facts. Facts from 2002 are ancient history. You may as well bring up the Battle of Hastings in 1066. Both are irrelevant to OpenSolaris today. It is Sun that is interested in the integration but it also Sun that tries to prevent it now. I am prepared but there is some work I cannot do. Again - you keep making accusations and you have yet to request a sponsor to begin the actual integration. Stop foisting FUD on the OpenSolaris project with these unfounded accusations. Regards, Al Hopper Logical Approach Inc, Plano, TX. [EMAIL PROTECTED] Voice: 972.379.2133 Fax: 972.379.2134 Timezone: US CDT OpenSolaris Governing Board (OGB) Member - Apr 2005 to Mar 2007 http://www.opensolaris.org/os/community/ogb/ogb_2005-2007/ Graduate from sugar-coating school? Sorry - I never attended! :) ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] [ogb-discuss] Nameclash on svn_77 because Sun is ignoring PSARC discussions
Darren J Moffat [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It obviously doesn't work then because freshmeat.net lists both star and ImageMagic. I see no relation between imagemagic and star. What is your problem? Jörg -- EMail:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (home) Jörg Schilling D-13353 Berlin [EMAIL PROTECTED](uni) [EMAIL PROTECTED] (work) Blog: http://schily.blogspot.com/ URL: http://cdrecord.berlios.de/old/private/ ftp://ftp.berlios.de/pub/schily ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] [ogb-discuss] Nameclash on svn_77 because Sun is ignoring PSARC discussions
On Wed, Dec 19, 2007 at 08:24:36PM +0100, Joerg Schilling wrote: Darren J Moffat [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It obviously doesn't work then because freshmeat.net lists both star and ImageMagic. I see no relation between imagemagic and star. What is your problem? Darren is saying that freshmeat did not prevent the conflict, thus it's not a suitable registry. This: http://freshmeat.net/search/?q=compare+imagemagicsection=projectsGo.x=0Go.y=0 says nothing. It seems that freshmeat doesn't index the interfaces delivered by any one project. That means that freshmeat.net is not a remotely useful as a registry of command-names for any OS's /usr/bin. I imagine that there is not site that can serve the purpose of a registry today. Nico -- ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] [ogb-discuss] Nameclash on svn_77 because Sun is ignoring PSARC discussions
Al Hopper writes: On Wed, 19 Dec 2007, Joerg Schilling wrote: The star integration project started in August 2002. This is not history; in internet time, this is simply *ancient* history and is of no interest to me (or most others on the OpenSolaris project). I'm interested in today and yesterday, and possibly last month I'm not even very interested in build 52 and I'm about to upgrade a machine running build 68. Mostly agreed. I think part of the confusion is that some folks may think that Sun is a single entity with one mind. It's really not. It's composed of people, who each have personal priorities, various parts of Sun management to which to report (each with their own view), and varying kinds of skills. And only a very few of whom can actually speak on behalf of Sun. The person that Joerg worked with back in 2002 isn't here anymore. That might be unfortunate, but it's reality. So, the idea that there's some on-going effort between this composite Mr. Sun person and Joerg just doesn't match up with reality. As you're saying, if someone wants to go through with integration, then under the current rules, he needs to get a sponsor. Bonus points if he doesn't somehow manage on the way to discourage and offend all who might otherwise have been interested in helping out. -- James Carlson, Solaris Networking [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sun Microsystems / 35 Network Drive71.232W Vox +1 781 442 2084 MS UBUR02-212 / Burlington MA 01803-2757 42.496N Fax +1 781 442 1677 ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] [ogb-discuss] Nameclash on svn_77 because Sun is ignoring PSARC discussions
Joerg Schilling wrote: It is Sun that is interested in the integration but it also Sun that tries to prevent it now. I am prepared but there is some work I cannot do. Sun does neither - it pays engineers to do work, but the corporation doesn't have opinions like this.Someone at Sun was interested in this in the past, I don't know who, but are they still in the same job at Sun and still interested? You claim someone else at Sun is now blocking you - who is that? You will get nowhere if you continue to treat Sun as one gigantic entity with one mind, that never changes - there's over 30,000 people here, and we all do different things and disagree on many of them, and if you don't deal with the individuals, nothing can ever happen. -- -Alan Coopersmith- [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sun Microsystems, Inc. - X Window System Engineering ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] [ogb-discuss] Nameclash on svn_77 because Sun is ignoring PSARC discussions
Al Hopper [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Again - you keep making accusations and you have yet to request a sponsor to begin the actual integration. Stop foisting FUD on the OpenSolaris project with these unfounded accusations. I see accusations from several people here but not from me. From a face to fact meeting with you I got the impression that you are a serious guy, from what I read now I am not sure if this is from the same person I talked with. Please try to be as serious as the impression I have from you. Jörg -- EMail:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (home) Jörg Schilling D-13353 Berlin [EMAIL PROTECTED](uni) [EMAIL PROTECTED] (work) Blog: http://schily.blogspot.com/ URL: http://cdrecord.berlios.de/old/private/ ftp://ftp.berlios.de/pub/schily ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] [ogb-discuss] Nameclash on svn_77 because Sun is ignoring PSARC discussions
On Wed, 19 Dec 2007, Joerg Schilling wrote: If integration only works with help from Sun employees and if Sun employees do not help, star integration will never be able to happen. This is akin to saying If I never get in my car, and I never turn the key, then the car will never start. It's a true statement, but ultimately meaningless. You need to initiate the process via the 'request a sponsor' method. Someone at Sun will volunteer to help you. Regards, markm ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] [ogb-discuss] Nameclash on svn_77 because Sun is ignoring PSARC discussions
In any event, none of that is OpenSolaris, nor does it establish any precedent here, and the prior inclusion of ImageMagick in /usr/sfw *does* establish precedent, so I think LSARC made an entirely proper decision on this apparent conflict, preferring the popular and expected usage rather than the obscure and unexpected. Well, here I learn something new. I was always installing the sunfreeware.com package because I intended to not use /usr/sfw at all (except for compiling stuff). -mg signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] [ogb-discuss] Nameclash on svn_77 because Sun is ignoring PSARC discussions
Do you like to ignore that my compare is genric and thus correctly using the name and that it is 20 years older than imagemagick? I think it is hardly relevant. I do not remember hearing of it before and without any evidence of more than marginal usage (say part of one or more mainstream distributions of, say, Linux) I would think that its existant is hardly relevant. It is just another chance to verify that there is collaboration on OpenSolaris and not just ignorant domination from Sun. No, it's not. You cannot conclude anything about other people not agreeing with you. Do we have an OpenSolaris community or is this just a fake? The real compare is 20 years older and I did _warn_ _before_ the name appeared in /usr/bin. For this reason, this is an important bug in Solaris Express. PSARC has probably noted your objection at decided that it was irrelevant. That would have been my decision also. Casper ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] [ogb-discuss] Nameclash on svn_77 because Sun is ignoring PSARC discussions
Joerg Schilling wrote: Now it seems that my warning has been ignored and /usr/bin/compare on svn_77 appears to be a program from ImageMagick that illegally uses the name compare. What law, rule or policy does this violate? ImageMagick was ARC approved, no other program named compare has been, so I see no conflict. Neither the OGB nor the ARC can be expected to regulate the namespace of every program someone has written in the world, only those that have asked to be part of OpenSolaris. -- -Alan Coopersmith- [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sun Microsystems, Inc. - X Window System Engineering ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] [ogb-discuss] Nameclash on svn_77 because Sun is ignoring PSARC discussions
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: For this reason, the compare from imagemagick either needs to be= renamed or it needs to be put into a different directory. Your compare command gives a name clash with ImageMagick's compare = command; why don't you rename yours? Looks like you are unwilling to cooperate! Why should I rename that exists in the public for a long time just be= cause some uncooperative people reused the name? Stop trying to be the center of the universe, Joerg. You're accusing people left and right without any basis in fact. Many people just have no clue what programs you have written nor do they care. When they pick a name for a new program, they'll perhaps try and find one on their own systems and perhaps a few more, And googling for compare does not easily find your program (until I add your name, that is) I'm sure that the ImageMagick folks did not /reuse/ the name; they picked the name compare because it was identical to the compare() function in their library and they were likely completely unaware of the existence of a compare program written by you. Why you claim malice or non-coorperation is beyond me. I was unaware of the existence of your compare until today. You claim that the only choice compatible with ALL ImageMagick installations is the worst choice is beyond me. IMHO, it's the best choice that a distro can make. I venture a guess that even if there was a /opt/schilly/bin/compare and we were moving ImageMagick, we would still have preferred its compare because it is in much wider use. And please stop accusing us of of not wanting to cooperate etc. We just don't agree with you. In freshmeat ImageMagick ranks 75th, your compare ranks 18000th. So who has more rights to install at the #1 location in the PATH? Getting there first is just completely meaningless. Casper Casper ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] [ogb-discuss] Nameclash on svn_77 because Sun is ignoring PSARC discussions
On Dec 14, 2007, at 9:44 AM, Joerg Schilling wrote: Why should I rename that exists in the public for a long time just because some uncooperative people reused the name? It's really irritating that ImageMagick grabbed command-line namespace this way. It's worse than you think, Jörg: convert and identify are also ImageMagick commands. The trouble is that they seem to have got away with it; for example, my blog-publishing system uses convert to wrangle pictures around, and it runs successfully on a huge number of different systems. There are a huge number of ImageMagick users; of the three command-line image wranglers (there are also gd, and the pbm family) it produces by far the best-quality graphics. So, it's reasonable to be irritated about this land-grab, but I'm afraid they have you outnumbered. -Tim ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] [ogb-discuss] Nameclash on svn_77 because Sun is ignoring PSARC discussions
Stop replying unless you are willing to have a discussion instead of proclaiming things. Pot. Kettle. Black. You are the one proclaiming and accusing. I think I am being reasonable. I've tried to ask the question more politely several times, but I have yet to see an answer, so I'll be a little bit more direct: Why do you believe that your command compare which is used by perhaps O(nobody) people, has more rights to be installed in /usr/bin/ then ImageMagick's compare command which is installed in that location on 100,000s and likely millions of systems?[1] Casper [1] Irrespective of the fact that proper ARC procedure was followed and that the outcome of that procedure would not have been different except if your compare was shipping in /usr/bin. ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] [ogb-discuss] Nameclash on svn_77 because Sun is ignoring PSARC discussions
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: For this reason, the compare from imagemagick either needs to be= renamed or it needs to be put into a different directory. Your compare command gives a name clash with ImageMagick's compare = command; why don't you rename yours? Looks like you are unwilling to cooperate! Why should I rename that exists in the public for a long time just be= cause some uncooperative people reused the name? Stop trying to be the center of the universe, Joerg. You're accusing Stop replying unless you are willing to have a discussion instead of proclaiming things. If you like to have a discussion, you need to make a proposal that _may_ be acceptable. If your proposal was intended to be more than depreciating, try to e.g. convince the gimp team to use a new name. If you believe this is ridiculous, you know what you tried to do with me. Jörg -- EMail:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (home) Jörg Schilling D-13353 Berlin [EMAIL PROTECTED](uni) [EMAIL PROTECTED] (work) Blog: http://schily.blogspot.com/ URL: http://cdrecord.berlios.de/old/private/ ftp://ftp.berlios.de/pub/schily ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] [ogb-discuss] Nameclash on svn_77 because Sun is ignoring PSARC discussions
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Stop replying unless you are willing to have a discussion instead of proclaiming things. Pot. Kettle. Black. You are the one proclaiming and accusing. I think I am being reasonable. I've tried to ask the question more politely several times, but I have You have been impolite from the beginning of this discussion because you ignored the problem and because your replies read between the lines that you are not willing to change things. I started by describing the problem. If you like a serious discussion, you would need to reply in a way that does not try to prevent a discussion. I did warn that there will be a problem early enough. The problem has been discussed and at some time there was something that looked like people did understand the problem. You cannot behave as if I did notice the problem lately. We now have a problem because early discussion results have been ignored. A solution thus needs to start discussing the action that caused the problem. You did never even try to talk about this problem. Jörg -- EMail:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (home) Jörg Schilling D-13353 Berlin [EMAIL PROTECTED](uni) [EMAIL PROTECTED] (work) Blog: http://schily.blogspot.com/ URL: http://cdrecord.berlios.de/old/private/ ftp://ftp.berlios.de/pub/schily ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] [ogb-discuss] Nameclash on svn_77 because Sun is ignoring PSARC discussions
On Fri, 14 Dec 2007, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: As long as it it impossible to implement the arc decisions in OpenSolaris, OpenSolaris cannot evolve. ARC does not decide as much as approves, approves w/ TCRs or denies. But projects approved by the ARC are often implemented so to claim that that is impossible is ludicrous. But they are implemented by their stakeholders. And sometimes stakeholders leave and projects wither away. You have to verify that the way it is currently handled actually works. My impression is that it is either impossible to integrate stuff at all or that some people inside Sun boycott the integration of star. If you would ask me now, I could only say it does not work. We have not seen a request-sponsor request from you for the integration of star nor have we seen any other attempt to do so. YOU will have to do the work to integrate star. *ALL* the work; you will need to get to a point that you can type putback or whatever the equivalent is for the consolidation you want to put it in then solicit input for code reviews etc. Possibly revisit the ARC case and see whether it needs updating (this is likely a minor matter, but when ARC cases are so old, they likely need a few touchups). Since I have seen none of those things coming from you, I'd say that the star integration ball is firmly in your court and you need to pick it up and run with it. You have mentioned star integration many times and we tell you the exact same thing every time. So let me ask you a question: What is it that you expect Sun to do first? Followup: Question for Joerg: If I (personally) come up with a nice command line utility the others find useful and decide to have it integrated into OpenSolaris as star and go through the integration/ARC process, just as Roland Mainz did for ksh93 - is there anything to stop me from having *my* code placed in /usr/bin/star? I don't think so. If you want to get your star integrated into /usr/bin/star before me (or anyone else) you best get your ask in gear. The time you're spending on this useless thread could be better spent in getting your star integrated into OpenSolaris IMHO. Joerg: Start your star integration effort today - lest someone else integrates another program called 'star' into /usr/bin before you. And then we'll all have to suffer another Joerg S thread complaining about how you had star years before that other person subsumed your program name. Joerg - I've tried to make this email as blunt as possible. Stop trying to swim upstream. If you want star integrated - (per Nike) Do It Now. Regards, Al Hopper Logical Approach Inc, Plano, TX. [EMAIL PROTECTED] Voice: 972.379.2133 Fax: 972.379.2134 Timezone: US CDT OpenSolaris Governing Board (OGB) Member - Apr 2005 to Mar 2007 http://www.opensolaris.org/os/community/ogb/ogb_2005-2007/ Graduate from sugar-coating school? Sorry - I never attended! :) ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] [ogb-discuss] Nameclash on svn_77 because Sun is ignoring PSARC discussions
On Fri, 14 Dec 2007, Joerg Schilling wrote: Nicolas Williams [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Jörg seems to want the ARC and c-teams to use a different method than they use today for deciding when some utility (or library, or whatever) name is a conflict with another existing one. I recommend that Jörg make a proposal for such a change without making such a proposal specific to his troubles with star, compare, etc... I'm not sure that we can come up with such a method that will: a) allow OpenSolaris to evolve and grow, while b) preventing any conflicts with As long as it it impossible to implement the arc decisions in OpenSolaris, OpenSolaris cannot evolve. Even a casual observer of the on-going technical behavior on opensolaris.org can clearly see the ARC decision making and implementation are alive and healthy. You have to verify that the way it is currently handled actually works. Go ahead and download Nevada Build 77 and I think you'll agree that it works! Thats all the 'verification' you need! My impression is that it is either impossible to integrate stuff at all or that some people inside Sun boycott the integration of star. If you Joerg - you're full of krap. The integration of ksh93 *proves* that integration is not only possible, but is IMPOSSIBLE to prevent. Look at the internal (within Sun) bickering that kept ksh93 from being integrated for years. And look at how much *disruption* the integration of ksh93 caused - because it touches on so many kernel related features/facilities and yet *it* *was* *successfully* *integrated* by Roland Mainz - an OpenSolaris contributor and non-Sun employee. Thus - your arguments are without merit. would ask me now, I could only say it does not work. On the contrary - ksh93 proves that it *does* *work*. Think about how to find a way to change this Why change anything? Download build 77 and type: exec ksh93 -o vi at the command line. It works. If it ain't broke - don't fix it! Regards, Al Hopper Logical Approach Inc, Plano, TX. [EMAIL PROTECTED] Voice: 972.379.2133 Fax: 972.379.2134 Timezone: US CDT OpenSolaris Governing Board (OGB) Member - Apr 2005 to Mar 2007 http://www.opensolaris.org/os/community/ogb/ogb_2005-2007/ Graduate from sugar-coating school? Sorry - I never attended! :)___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] [ogb-discuss] Nameclash on svn_77 because Sun is ignoring PSARC discussions
On Fri, Dec 14, 2007 at 11:04:28PM +0100, Joerg Schilling wrote: Everything is ready for a long time and waiting for integration. The SFW makefile system is undocumented and idiosyncratic and it does not seem to support all I need. If the makefilesystem is usable, somebody just kows how just needs to write the wrapper Makefile. Right. As the implementer, this is your responsibility. You can get help with that system from sfwnv-discuss; I'm sure Mike Sullivan knows what you need, and there are others there with experience using the makefiles (which aren't really very complex). Now can we please end this thread? -- Keith M Wesolowski Sir, we're surrounded! FishWorks Excellent; we can attack in any direction! ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] [ogb-discuss] Nameclash on svn_77 because Sun is ignoring PSARC discussions
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I was unaware of the existence of your compare until today. Just to be different, I'll admit that *I* knew about the problem quite a while ago. I knew about the problem only because these two programs once duked it out over the right to be '/opt/csw/bin/compare' if you make the mistake of installing schilyutils and imagemagick -- and not because I ever used or had a reason to use schilyutils. Apparently, someone changed the ImageMagick one in blastwave to be compare2 ... which is an extremely annoying result if you prefer to use the usual image manipulation tools and end up getting surprised by a binary comparison tool that isn't needed and doesn't do what was wanted. In any event, none of that is OpenSolaris, nor does it establish any precedent here, and the prior inclusion of ImageMagick in /usr/sfw *does* establish precedent, so I think LSARC made an entirely proper decision on this apparent conflict, preferring the popular and expected usage rather than the obscure and unexpected. (What's next? Replacing /usr/bin/dd with VM/CMS 'dd' because the latter is older?) You claim that the only choice compatible with ALL ImageMagick installations is the worst choice is beyond me. IMHO, it's the best choice that a distro can make. Indeed. I completely agree. -- James Carlson, Solaris Networking [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sun Microsystems / 35 Network Drive71.232W Vox +1 781 442 2084 MS UBUR02-212 / Burlington MA 01803-2757 42.496N Fax +1 781 442 1677 ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
