Re: [opensuse] Why are there not more using Linux?

[James Knott]

Aaron Kulkis wrote:
> Before that, I had no interest in actually owning
> my own computer.
>
>
What I find amusing is that I'm running the same OS as a super computer!

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Re: [opensuse] Why are there not more using Linux?

[Aaron Kulkis]

James Knott wrote:

Aaron Kulkis wrote:

Other than this laptop I'm on, I've never owned an
Intel CPU... my first machine was Cyrix, and then
I switched to AMD.  Intel has always had the worst
price/performance evaluation.



My first CPU was an Intel, an 8080 in my IMSAI 8080.  My 2nd was an
8088, in an XT clone, which I replaced with a NEC V20.  Currently, my
main system is an AMD64 4000+.


From when I first started programming, I always had
access to quite powerful machines, and it wasn't until
the mid-1990's that PC's came within an order of magnitude
of what I was using outside the home.

Before that, I had no interest in actually owning
my own computer.


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Re: [opensuse] Why are there not more using Linux?

[James Knott]

Aaron Kulkis wrote:
>
> Other than this laptop I'm on, I've never owned an
> Intel CPU... my first machine was Cyrix, and then
> I switched to AMD.  Intel has always had the worst
> price/performance evaluation.
>
>
My first CPU was an Intel, an 8080 in my IMSAI 8080.  My 2nd was an
8088, in an XT clone, which I replaced with a NEC V20.  Currently, my
main system is an AMD64 4000+.


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Re: [opensuse] Why are there not more using Linux

[Aaron Kulkis]

Marcin Floryan wrote:

On 25/01/2008, Lincoln Rutledge <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

And if Microsoft doesn't at least open up the sources for their libraries, 
eventually people
are going to stop slamming their hand in the door on purpose and write in an 
environment
where they do have source for the libraries.


Actually, I think they have realised that and have recently  release
the source code for the .NET platform. Though it might be too
sensitive to release source for other products ;-)


Yeah... instead of merely being suspected as shoddily-written
products, they will be PROVEN to be shoddily-written products.


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Re: [opensuse] Why are there not more using Linux?

[Aaron Kulkis]

Lincoln Rutledge wrote:

Lincoln Rutledge
Network Engineer
OSC Networking
800-627-6420

Kai Ponte <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 01/25/08 10:43 PM >>>

On Friday 25 January 2008 03:42:16 pm Randall R Schulz wrote:

On Friday 25 January 2008 14:54, Chuck wrote:

...


I'm old school too.  But Suns and SPARCs are yesterday dude :)
Linux and x86-64 are NOW!

lawl. Dude Sun and Sarc are going no where any time soon... just the
opposite... Sparc IV+ & Solaris 10 dance circles around Linux on any
hardware.. You need to spend some time in a true top-tier enterprise
class data center. Linux still has scores or limitations holding it
back in the enterprise realm. There is a reason the stuff is
expensive -- its damn good.

How do you explain the Googles and Amazons of this world, whose stock OS
platform for customer-fronted services is Linux?

I'm not saying Solaris is on its way out, but one can most certainly run
very-large-scale enterprise operations on Linux. I tend to doubt
it's "held back."


I had an interesting discussion regarding my data center yeterday. While 
advocating Linux for the data center the topic was brought up that we should 
use a "true server" such as FreeBSD UNIX or another UNIX variant.


I then reminded my peers that Linux runs several thousands of "true servers" 
and we should be the ones to talk, since we run Windows Workstations in our 
data center, with the exception of one ancient HP 3000. 


Hehe, we are a FreeBSD shop too.  But I already said what I think about 
FreeBSD's future...  The GPL man, everything gets added to the snowball :)



Yep.

I was a dyed-in-the-wool BSD guy from my college days
(1980's).  Frankly, the political infighting among the
BSD people (and their wasteful division of manpower
duplicating each others' efforts, because the various
camps refuse to cooperate with each other) completely
turned me off to any continued use of BSD.  They're so
far behind the power curve, it should be an embarrassment
to all of them.

Linc






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Re: [opensuse] Why are there not more using Linux?

[Aaron Kulkis]

James Knott wrote:

Aaron Kulkis wrote:

Joe Sloan wrote:

Dude, there is *nothing* holding linux back here, other than fear and
ignorance - and now that the SCO lawsuit has all but died, that fear is

It's dead.

You can buy several shares of SCOX (oops, it doesn't have
listing symbol anymore) for a penny.


SCOX has been delisted from Nasdaq, but is still available on the "pink
sheets", currently at 8.5 cents.  Search for SCOXQ.PK.


Wooo-wee!!!


I'll bet that with a resurgance to such dizzying
heights,  Darl must by partying like a rock star.


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Re: [opensuse] Why are there not more using Linux?

[Aaron Kulkis]

James Knott wrote:

Aaron Kulkis wrote:

Intel and AMD won the CPU wars. (and the field can't
be reduced below two, because every competent military
purchasing department on the planet requires that all
electronic components be "2nd-sourced" -- so if AMD
fails, then Intel is cut out of that lucrative market
until such time that another company is up and running
as a "2nd source" of Intel-like CPUs -- This is why
Intel keeps AMD abreast of their future designs --
if AMD can't duplicate Intel functionality, then Intel
loses).


According to an IBM Linux presentation I attended a couple of years ago,
IBM manufactures many CPU's for AMD.  This means that even if AMD fails,
the chips are still being made elsewhere.

Chips these days are designed using standard libraries, which make it
easy for another company to start producing CPU's from a failed company.

IIRC, in the 64 bit world, it's Intel following AMD, not the otherway
around.


Kind of ironic, isn't it.
And AMD is generally less expensive, too.

Other than this laptop I'm on, I've never owned an
Intel CPU... my first machine was Cyrix, and then
I switched to AMD.  Intel has always had the worst
price/performance evaluation.


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Re: [opensuse] Why are there not more using Linux

[Marcin Floryan]

On 25/01/2008, Lincoln Rutledge <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> And if Microsoft doesn't at least open up the sources for their libraries, 
> eventually people
> are going to stop slamming their hand in the door on purpose and write in an 
> environment
> where they do have source for the libraries.

Actually, I think they have realised that and have recently  release
the source code for the .NET platform. Though it might be too
sensitive to release source for other products ;-)

Kind regards,
-- 
Marcin Floryan
http://marcin.floryan.pl/

Please consider the environment before printing this email.
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Re: [opensuse] Why are there not more using Linux?

[Lincoln Rutledge]

Lincoln Rutledge
Network Engineer
OSC Networking
800-627-6420
>>> Kai Ponte <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 01/25/08 10:43 PM >>>
On Friday 25 January 2008 03:42:16 pm Randall R Schulz wrote:
> On Friday 25 January 2008 14:54, Chuck wrote:
> > ...
> >
> > > I'm old school too.  But Suns and SPARCs are yesterday dude :)
> > > Linux and x86-64 are NOW!
> >
> > lawl. Dude Sun and Sarc are going no where any time soon... just the
> > opposite... Sparc IV+ & Solaris 10 dance circles around Linux on any
> > hardware.. You need to spend some time in a true top-tier enterprise
> > class data center. Linux still has scores or limitations holding it
> > back in the enterprise realm. There is a reason the stuff is
> > expensive -- its damn good.
>
> How do you explain the Googles and Amazons of this world, whose stock OS
> platform for customer-fronted services is Linux?
>
> I'm not saying Solaris is on its way out, but one can most certainly run
> very-large-scale enterprise operations on Linux. I tend to doubt
> it's "held back."

I had an interesting discussion regarding my data center yeterday. While 
advocating Linux for the data center the topic was brought up that we should 
use a "true server" such as FreeBSD UNIX or another UNIX variant.

I then reminded my peers that Linux runs several thousands of "true servers" 
and we should be the ones to talk, since we run Windows Workstations in our 
data center, with the exception of one ancient HP 3000. 

Hehe, we are a FreeBSD shop too.  But I already said what I think about 
FreeBSD's future...  The GPL man, everything gets added to the snowball :)

Linc


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Re: [opensuse] Why are there not more using Linux?

[Lincoln Rutledge]

Lincoln Rutledge
Network Engineer
OSC Networking
800-627-6420
>>> Aaron Kulkis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 01/26/08 6:48 AM >>>
Chuck wrote:
> On Jan 25, 2008 1:44 PM, Lincoln Rutledge <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> Hi Simon,
>>


>>  teach TCP and Unix system administration in 1994, and other than Linux, I'm 
>> mostly a Solaris body. I have 3 Linux systems at home, two of which 
>> dual-boot with windows so I can run Photoshop in a color managed 
>> environment. I use VMWare for some other windows stuff that's less crucial 
>> to me. I also have a dual processor
>>  SPARC/Solaris 10 system. I loath and detest bill gates and everything he 
>> stands for. I regularly point out to
>>
>> I'm old school too.  But Suns and SPARCs are yesterday dude :)  Linux and 
>> x86-64 are NOW!
>>
> 
> lawl. Dude Sun and Sarc are going no where any time soon... just the
> opposite... Sparc IV+ & Solaris 10 dance circles around Linux on any
> hardware.. You need to spend some time in a true top-tier enterprise
> class data center. Linux still has scores or limitations holding it
> back in the enterprise realm. There is a reason the stuff is expensive
> -- its damn good.

That might have been true 5 years ago

Sun is going to abandon the SPARC soon.

As much as I despise the Intel x86 with its architecture
and annoying instruction set, it IS the future of high-
end computing.

HP-UX was ported from PA-RISC to x86

AIX is being ported from the p5 to x86

Solaris has been ported to x86 -- and the x86 version
is no longer a crufty toy like it used to be -- Sun
has thrown in a well-rounded effort to finally provide
the x86 version with all the drivers as the Sparc version.

The only major Unix that I'm unsure of at this point
is SGI.

Sun doesn't have enough sales to keep the SPARC performance
competitive with HP and IBM machines loaded up with
x86's which have the development overhead spread over
hundreds of millions of units rather than tens of
thousands for SPARC and whatever SGI us using lately.

Intel and AMD won the CPU wars. (and the field can't
be reduced below two, because every competent military
purchasing department on the planet requires that all
electronic components be "2nd-sourced" -- so if AMD
fails, then Intel is cut out of that lucrative market
until such time that another company is up and running
as a "2nd source" of Intel-like CPUs -- This is why
Intel keeps AMD abreast of their future designs --
if AMD can't duplicate Intel functionality, then Intel
loses).

Hehehe, didn't mean to start a war about Sun.  I loved DEC and Sun and all the 
cool hardware, but x86 (and now x86-64) has swallowed it.  Google uses x86 and 
Linux for a reason.

I have a Sun and a PowerPC machine and I mostly keep them around for nostalgia, 
I loved them, but they are yesterday :)

Linc


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Re: [opensuse] Why are there not more using Linux?

[James Knott]

Aaron Kulkis wrote:
>
> Intel and AMD won the CPU wars. (and the field can't
> be reduced below two, because every competent military
> purchasing department on the planet requires that all
> electronic components be "2nd-sourced" -- so if AMD
> fails, then Intel is cut out of that lucrative market
> until such time that another company is up and running
> as a "2nd source" of Intel-like CPUs -- This is why
> Intel keeps AMD abreast of their future designs --
> if AMD can't duplicate Intel functionality, then Intel
> loses).
>
According to an IBM Linux presentation I attended a couple of years ago,
IBM manufactures many CPU's for AMD.  This means that even if AMD fails,
the chips are still being made elsewhere.

Chips these days are designed using standard libraries, which make it
easy for another company to start producing CPU's from a failed company.

IIRC, in the 64 bit world, it's Intel following AMD, not the otherway
around.



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Re: [opensuse] Why are there not more using Linux?

[Aaron Kulkis]

Joe Sloan wrote:

Chuck wrote:


lawl. Dude Sun and Sarc are going no where any time soon... just the
opposite... Sparc IV+ & Solaris 10 dance circles around Linux on any
hardware.. You need to spend some time in a true top-tier enterprise
class data center. Linux still has scores or limitations holding it
back in the enterprise realm. There is a reason the stuff is expensive
-- its damn good.


I work for a fortune 100 company, and we run AIX, HPUX, Solaris, and
SuSE Enterprise Linux in our data centers. I have to smile at the idea
that solaris is somehow more robust than linux. Solaris is great, but so
is linux.

More and more, we're moving apps off of the old school legacy unix
platforms onto HP/Compaq servers running linux. And the results have
been very very good.

We have dozens of busy linux servers with over 500 days uptime - and the
uptime champ, by far for our whole enterprise? Take a guess:


[EMAIL PROTECTED]:~> uptime
  5:32pm  up 1016 days  1:24,  1 user,  load average: 2.47, 2.56, 2.36

An very busy old compaq 2450 running DB2, apache and websphere on SLES 9

Dude, there is *nothing* holding linux back here, other than fear and
ignorance - and now that the SCO lawsuit has all but died, that fear is


It's dead.

You can buy several shares of SCOX (oops, it doesn't have
listing symbol anymore) for a penny.

Maybe they should change the name to "Solidified Hydrogen"


giving way to a new boldness - and I'm doing everything

> I can to fix the ignorance.


Joe




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Re: [opensuse] Why are there not more using Linux?

[Aaron Kulkis]

Chuck wrote:

On Jan 25, 2008 1:44 PM, Lincoln Rutledge <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

Hi Simon,





 teach TCP and Unix system administration in 1994, and other than Linux, I'm 
mostly a Solaris body. I have 3 Linux systems at home, two of which dual-boot 
with windows so I can run Photoshop in a color managed environment. I use 
VMWare for some other windows stuff that's less crucial to me. I also have a 
dual processor
 SPARC/Solaris 10 system. I loath and detest bill gates and everything he 
stands for. I regularly point out to

I'm old school too.  But Suns and SPARCs are yesterday dude :)  Linux and 
x86-64 are NOW!



lawl. Dude Sun and Sarc are going no where any time soon... just the
opposite... Sparc IV+ & Solaris 10 dance circles around Linux on any
hardware.. You need to spend some time in a true top-tier enterprise
class data center. Linux still has scores or limitations holding it
back in the enterprise realm. There is a reason the stuff is expensive
-- its damn good.


That might have been true 5 years ago

Sun is going to abandon the SPARC soon.

As much as I despise the Intel x86 with its architecture
and annoying instruction set, it IS the future of high-
end computing.

HP-UX was ported from PA-RISC to x86

AIX is being ported from the p5 to x86

Solaris has been ported to x86 -- and the x86 version
is no longer a crufty toy like it used to be -- Sun
has thrown in a well-rounded effort to finally provide
the x86 version with all the drivers as the Sparc version.

The only major Unix that I'm unsure of at this point
is SGI.

Sun doesn't have enough sales to keep the SPARC performance
competitive with HP and IBM machines loaded up with
x86's which have the development overhead spread over
hundreds of millions of units rather than tens of
thousands for SPARC and whatever SGI us using lately.

Intel and AMD won the CPU wars. (and the field can't
be reduced below two, because every competent military
purchasing department on the planet requires that all
electronic components be "2nd-sourced" -- so if AMD
fails, then Intel is cut out of that lucrative market
until such time that another company is up and running
as a "2nd source" of Intel-like CPUs -- This is why
Intel keeps AMD abreast of their future designs --
if AMD can't duplicate Intel functionality, then Intel
loses).




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Re: [opensuse] Why are there not more using Linux

[Aaron Kulkis]

M. Fioretti wrote:

On Mon, January 21, 2008 4:58 am, Aaron Kulkis wrote:


With AutoCad, the better approach is to get them to port
to Linux
Of course, this is difficult to do as individuals, but
small to medium-sized IT departments can.  You tell the
AutoCad rep that the company's strategic direction is
to move from Winows XP to Linux, and that if they want
to continue selling, they have to keep up. IF not,
you're going to be buying SDRC Ideas, or some other
product that fits into your company's plans to NOT
migrate to Vista.

The threat of permanent loss of sales is an excellant
motivator to these sorts of companies.


The problem is that such threats are only plausible if the customer
doesn't have plenty of data locked in a format that only Autocad
can fully understand, or will never receive from partners or potential
customers files in such formats that need to be read or modified. Not
really likely, see:

cfr the Autocad paragraph and links in the second part of:
http://www.freesoftwaremagazine.com/articles/focus_format_history/



There are industry standard file formats for CAD/CAM, and
AutoCad can export and import to those formats.




Same scenario here:


Once Linux captures a significant share of business desktops


this won't happen until those business users continue to receive
(or are required to send) files in the latest Microsoft Office formats,
whatever that is in any given moment.

In both cases, the most effective strategy, even if it's unglamourous,
to get to the point where you can really do everything you need under
Linux may be to demand laws that force all Public Administrations to
only accept, store or distribute files in non proprietary formats, or
at least formats that are 100% guaranteed to be fully usable under any
operating system, with _more_ than one software program.


That helps.





Once businesses know that to keep selling goods or services to the state
or city Government they MUST deliver contracts, bids, technical drawings,
whatever, in formats that are completely usable with any operating sytems,
the rest will happen by itself.


Very true.  Which is why MS is paranoid about ODF.



And much sooner than if we wait for businesses who couldn't care less
of the license of the software they use, not when changing it would make
their existing files less readable (= interfere with "business as usual").

 Marco




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Re: [opensuse] Why are there not more using Linux?

[Billie Walsh]

Jonathan Ervine wrote:
> On Saturday 26 January 2008 00:06:02 Billie Walsh wrote:
>   
>> Jonathan Ervine wrote:
>> 
>>> On Friday 25 January 2008 11:58:30 Billie Walsh wrote:
>>>   
 On 01/24/2008 Jonathan Ervine wrote:
 
> 
>   
>> Unlike some people I DO NOT keep every e-mail that comes through
>> every list I'm on. I read and delete. If it's something that I feel
>> is important I will save it to another folder. If it's REALLY
>> important I will print it. "Threading" would do no good because there
>> is nothing to "thread". Nothing in my "Trash" folder is over three
>> days old. It automatically deletes anything over that. If I don't
>> need it in three days I don't need it at all. I also don't read every
>> header line for line. In fact all I see in the header field is
>> Subject, From, Date, To. My preference.
>> 
>
> Fair enough - I didn't know (and couldn't have known) how your email 
> client/threading preferences are set up. Likewise you couldn't know 
> mine. Your email appeared in a thread in the list as an immediate reply 
> to a Linux kernel developer. And I really don't want to get into a 
> posting/threading discussion...
>   

Fair enough.

> 
> 
> OK - back to your original query: Atheros wireless. Repos enabled, add 
> the madwifi.org repo (clicks in boxes). Software installed and hardware 
> detected by YaST? 

Perhaps I didn't explain enough.

The Madwifi/Atheros drivers seem to work just fine. IMHO, it's the
wireless network software [ ie. - Kwifimanager, knetworkmanager, etc. ]
that seems to be at fault. Or at least missing some very basic feature.
With Kwifi Manager I can see every wireless connection around me, but so
far I have been unable to find a "Connect" button. [ Have to fall back
on a Windows ap for an example here. ] In XP, on the same setup, I can
scan for wireless connections, highlight one and click on "Connect".
Under KDE on my home network I can set up the "priority" connection to
start on boot, but the settings keep getting "lost" somewhere after a
boot or two. I have to go into setup and reconfigure everything again.
Once it's configured and connected it works like a dream. If I'm
traveling I don't particularly want my home network setting to load on
boot. I want to scan for connections, pick out the hotel wifi, click
"Connect" and fill in the WEP/password and go. It would be nice if the
connection stayed configured until I tell it differently.

Does anyone know where the "Connect" button is?
Should I do a "bug/feature request" with KDE?

> TV cards - well, you said yourself, they're a poor 
> alternative to television, but check with myth-tv for well supported 
> cards prior to buying. 

I took a couple hours looking into Myth-TV. I decided it was just plain
more trouble than it was worth to get setup. When I can get it to work
KDETV seems to work pretty good unless your looking for some very
advanced feature. In Yast>TVCard the card is listed and if I mess around
with it long enough it will work. BUT, it's easier to just hit the "ON"
button on the remote for the TV set. AND, here again, I seem to have to
go through the setup every little bit.

IMHO, If you want TV buy a television. If you want Linux based video
capture buy a Tivo. [ Yes, they are Linux based ] Hard to believe that
such a marvelous video capture/playback system can run on Linux but the
average distro is such a pain. [ I know, it's all custom hardware and
software, but...]

But that's just my own opinion.

> As a general question, do Linux users not check 
> whether their prospective purchase works? Video - use the in-kernel 
> drivers. (I'm not talking 3D video by the way)
>   

We have about six different pcmcia wifi cards around here. I did my home
work before I did the install. I picked the one that had the supported
Atheros chips. I wasn't going to dual boot until I had at least a 50/50
chance of getting it working.

Many times it's not about what we would like to buy but what we already
have or can afford to buy. Most of my equipment is older, used, stuff.
I've had my TV cards since about Win98, first edition. [ I did recently
buy a new Hauppage USB HD TV dongle. Got a SUPER deal on it. Have had
zero luck with it in Linux so far. ] The wifi cards mostly came from the
flea market for pennies on the dollar. Some stuff I buy on closeout if
the price is cheap enough. It's not that I'm particularly cheap, just
not a lot of disposable income for toys, and I DO like my toys. [ Ham
radio and computers are NOT cheap hobbies. *<[:oD  ]

>   
>> 
>> 
>> We do a little light tech support for a local ISP. I swear there are
>> people out there that are just plain to stupid to even own a
>> computer. About 90% are just barely able to turn one on and click the
>> proper icon to start a program.
>> 
>
> And these plain stupid people also have problems on Windows. The flip 
> side to this wonderful, pop CD in and install the vendor drivers is all 
> the other cra

Re: [opensuse] Why are there not more using Linux?

[Jonathan Ervine]

On Saturday 26 January 2008 00:06:02 Billie Walsh wrote:
> Jonathan Ervine wrote:
> > On Friday 25 January 2008 11:58:30 Billie Walsh wrote:
> >> On 01/24/2008 Jonathan Ervine wrote:

> Unlike some people I DO NOT keep every e-mail that comes through
> every list I'm on. I read and delete. If it's something that I feel
> is important I will save it to another folder. If it's REALLY
> important I will print it. "Threading" would do no good because there
> is nothing to "thread". Nothing in my "Trash" folder is over three
> days old. It automatically deletes anything over that. If I don't
> need it in three days I don't need it at all. I also don't read every
> header line for line. In fact all I see in the header field is
> Subject, From, Date, To. My preference.

Fair enough - I didn't know (and couldn't have known) how your email 
client/threading preferences are set up. Likewise you couldn't know 
mine. Your email appeared in a thread in the list as an immediate reply 
to a Linux kernel developer. And I really don't want to get into a 
posting/threading discussion...

> >> Average Joe User doesn't want to jump through hoops to make it
> >> work. He just wants a computer that he can turn on and EVERYTHING
> >> works without hastles.
> >
> > Then use the nv, radeon, Intel drivers for video and check the
> > hardware before purchase? Even on Windows EVERYTHING doesn't work
> > without hassles - you still have to install vendor supplied drivers
> > or visit websites to install drivers. (Possibly, at a stretch, Macs
> > provide the computing nirvana you're seeking)
>
> Big hassle. Plop in the CD that comes with whatever, click a few
> check box's, and it works. Bigger hassle, go to the web site and
> download a file. Run the file. Click a few check box's. It works.

OK - back to your original query: Atheros wireless. Repos enabled, add 
the madwifi.org repo (clicks in boxes). Software installed and hardware 
detected by YaST? TV cards - well, you said yourself, they're a poor 
alternative to television, but check with myth-tv for well supported 
cards prior to buying. As a general question, do Linux users not check 
whether their prospective purchase works? Video - use the in-kernel 
drivers. (I'm not talking 3D video by the way)

> OK, OK, OK! I know it's not a "LINUX" problem. HOWEVER, it is a
> problem FOR Linux.
>
> We do a little light tech support for a local ISP. I swear there are
> people out there that are just plain to stupid to even own a
> computer. About 90% are just barely able to turn one on and click the
> proper icon to start a program.

And these plain stupid people also have problems on Windows. The flip 
side to this wonderful, pop CD in and install the vendor drivers is all 
the other crap that they generally bundle with it that then gets 
installed also. As an example, I've seen a digital camera vendor 
install their own USB storage driver and some weird and wonderful photo 
management software. All very well, except when you plug in another USB 
storage device and it doesn't find the expected USB driver.

Besides which, if a user has made the decision to go to Linux, they're 
surely at a beyond average user level, and/or have access to knowledge 
or a friend who can help them with these issues. I'd hate to see a 
Linux forced on a user through no choice of their own. A system 
supplied by your employed I view differently, as it's essentially a 
tool for your job.


> I'm not complaining. Just stating fact.

Fair enough.

Jon
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Re: [opensuse] Why are there not more using Linux?

[Jonathan Ervine]

On Friday 25 January 2008 19:53:57 Philippe Landau wrote:
> Jonathan Ervine wrote:
> > Complain to Atheros or whoever manufactures your wireless card. Ah
> > yes, they won't listen to you, so it's easier to complain here.
>
> Wow, obviously you feel the need to attack a list member here.
> Billie Walsh (below) never complained, just explained his troubles.
> Maybe Novell could instead try to find a reply to the question above
> ? Did Novell research that question and what did they find, Jonathan

Blimey, if you thought that was an attack on a list member, you're a 
sensitive soul. Merely a suggestion as to where to lodge a complaint 
regarding a particular piece of hardware (with the proviso that it's 
probably a waste of time).

So, Billie explained her problem with a wireless network card and I 
pointed out where the fault currently lies... That is the simple 
answer - the code is licensed in such a way as to not be freely 
redistributable. However there is a KMP made available, and madwifi.org 
maintain a repo that allows the rest of the code to be available. It's 
not ideal, but it's how things are right now. Is that fair enough, 
Philippe?

Take care,
Jon
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Re: [opensuse] Why are there not more using Linux?

[Ken Schneider]

M9. pecked at the keyboard and wrote:
> 
> 
> Joe Sloan schreef:
> | Ken Schneider wrote:
> |> M9. pecked at the keyboard and wrote:
> |>> Joe Sloan schreef:
> |>>
> |>> | [EMAIL PROTECTED]:~> uptime |   5:32pm  up 1016 days  1:24,  1 user,
> |>> load average: 2.47, 2.56, 2.36
> |>>
> |>> More than 3 years, is quite impressive...
> |>>
> |>>
> |> It might be impressive, but it also shows that no kernel security
> |> updates have been performed in a log time which _could_ make the
> |> machine vulnerable to attacks.
> |
> |
> | Right, thekernel was updated in 2005 - there might be some sort of
> | theoretical local vulnerability, but not every kernel security update is
> | even relevant to our application.
> |
> | In the corporate world, you find that IT managers don't rush out and
> | update software all that often. When something works, the attitude is,
> | do not touch the production system.
> |
> | Joe
> |

We're also not talking about rushing out to update software for
softwares sake. It's about applying critical security updates. Of course
if the system is only an internal server it _might_ not be as critical.
If the IT managers were aware that a critical security update was
available and _not_ applied they would/should start asking why.

-- 
Ken Schneider
SuSe since Version 5.2, June 1998
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Re: [opensuse] Why are there not more using Linux?

[M9.]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1



James Knott schreef:
| Billie Walsh wrote:
|> James Knott wrote:
|>
|>> M9. wrote:
|>>
|>>
|>>> Joe Sloan schreef:
|>>>
|>>> | [EMAIL PROTECTED]:~> uptime
|>>> |   5:32pm  up 1016 days  1:24,  1 user,  load average: 2.47, 2.56,
2.36
|>>>
|>>> More than 3 years, is quite impressive...
|>>>
|>>>
|>> Not quite.  Three years is 1095 days, ignoring leap years.
|>>
|>>
|>>
|> 1095.75 if someone wants to be picky.
|>
| But then, we'd have to consider calendar years, Julian years, solar
| years, sidereal years and of course UTC years.
|

OK, does not take anything away from the impressiveness, if you ask me,
which you do not have to, ofcourse ;-))

- --


Have a nice day,

M9.   Now, is the only time that exists.


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Re: [opensuse] Why are there not more using Linux?

[M9.]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1



Joe Sloan schreef:
| Ken Schneider wrote:
|> M9. pecked at the keyboard and wrote:
|>> Joe Sloan schreef:
|>>
|>> | [EMAIL PROTECTED]:~> uptime |   5:32pm  up 1016 days  1:24,  1 user,
|>> load average: 2.47, 2.56, 2.36
|>>
|>> More than 3 years, is quite impressive...
|>>
|>>
|> It might be impressive, but it also shows that no kernel security
|> updates have been performed in a log time which _could_ make the
|> machine vulnerable to attacks.
|
|
| Right, thekernel was updated in 2005 - there might be some sort of
| theoretical local vulnerability, but not every kernel security update is
| even relevant to our application.
|
| In the corporate world, you find that IT managers don't rush out and
| update software all that often. When something works, the attitude is,
| do not touch the production system.
|
| Joe
|
|

Which is the only right attitude imo..to keep things going.
If something breaks, time is there to do the things that are nessesary.

- --


Have a nice day,

M9.   Now, is the only time that exists.


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Re: [opensuse] Why are there not more using Linux?

[James Knott]

Billie Walsh wrote:
> James Knott wrote:
>   
>> M9. wrote:
>>   
>> 
>>> Joe Sloan schreef:
>>>
>>> | [EMAIL PROTECTED]:~> uptime
>>> |   5:32pm  up 1016 days  1:24,  1 user,  load average: 2.47, 2.56, 2.36
>>>
>>> More than 3 years, is quite impressive...
>>> 
>>>   
>> Not quite.  Three years is 1095 days, ignoring leap years.
>>
>>   
>> 
> 1095.75 if someone wants to be picky.
>   
But then, we'd have to consider calendar years, Julian years, solar
years, sidereal years and of course UTC years.

-- 
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Re: [opensuse] Why are there not more using Linux?

[Randall R Schulz]

On Saturday 26 January 2008 10:07, James Knott wrote:
> M9. wrote:
>> Joe Sloan schreef:
>> | [EMAIL PROTECTED]:~> uptime
>> | 5:32pm  up 1016 days  1:24,  1 user,  load average: 2.47, 2.56, | 2.36
>>
>> More than 3 years, is quite impressive...
>
> Not quite.  Three years is 1095 days, ignoring leap years.

And we have an upper bound on kernel security fixes applied to this
system...


RRS
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Re: [opensuse] Why are there not more using Linux?

[Joe Sloan]

Ken Schneider wrote:
> M9. pecked at the keyboard and wrote:
>> 
>> Joe Sloan schreef:
>> 
>> | [EMAIL PROTECTED]:~> uptime |   5:32pm  up 1016 days  1:24,  1 user, 
>> load average: 2.47, 2.56, 2.36
>> 
>> More than 3 years, is quite impressive...
>> 
>> 
> 
> It might be impressive, but it also shows that no kernel security 
> updates have been performed in a log time which _could_ make the 
> machine vulnerable to attacks.


Right, thekernel was updated in 2005 - there might be some sort of
theoretical local vulnerability, but not every kernel security update is
even relevant to our application.

In the corporate world, you find that IT managers don't rush out and
update software all that often. When something works, the attitude is,
do not touch the production system.

Joe


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Re: [opensuse] Why are there not more using Linux?

[James Knott]

M9. wrote:
>
>
> Joe Sloan schreef:
>
> | [EMAIL PROTECTED]:~> uptime
> |   5:32pm  up 1016 days  1:24,  1 user,  load average: 2.47, 2.56, 2.36
>
> More than 3 years, is quite impressive...

Not quite.  Three years is 1095 days, ignoring leap years.

-- 
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Re: [opensuse] Why are there not more using Linux?

[Ken Schneider]

M9. pecked at the keyboard and wrote:
> 
> 
> Joe Sloan schreef:
> 
> | [EMAIL PROTECTED]:~> uptime
> |   5:32pm  up 1016 days  1:24,  1 user,  load average: 2.47, 2.56, 2.36
> 
> More than 3 years, is quite impressive...
> 
> 

It might be impressive, but it also shows that no kernel security
updates have been performed in a log time which _could_ make the
machine vulnerable to attacks.

-- 
Ken Schneider
SuSe since Version 5.2, June 1998
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Re: [opensuse] Why are there not more using Linux?

[M9.]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1



Joe Sloan schreef:

| [EMAIL PROTECTED]:~> uptime
|   5:32pm  up 1016 days  1:24,  1 user,  load average: 2.47, 2.56, 2.36

More than 3 years, is quite impressive...


|
| An very busy old compaq 2450 running DB2, apache and websphere on SLES 9
|

| Joe

- --


Have a nice day,

M9.   Now, is the only time that exists.


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Re: [opensuse] Why are there not more using Linux?

[G T Smith]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

Simon Roberts wrote:
> OK, I've been wanting to answer this question for ages, but there's





> 1) Hardware issues. If you just walk into a store and ask for a
> machine that will be good to go with Linux, they'll look at you
> blankly. It's a major effort to check the details yourself. Most off

In a long experience in support as well as development this is not
*just* a linux issue, you get as much and sometime more grief with M$
systems with manufacturers being lazy or incompetent in supplying
drivers that will work with various OS versions. The finger should be
mostly pointed at the hardware people in this case...


> 
> 2) Photography related. I use Windows to run Photoshop CS2 in a color
> managed workflow. In this, Linux doesn't cut it for two reasons:
> 



> GIMP is only 8 bit. That's fire in theory, but when you mess with
> stuff much, you quickly run into posterization (I see this even in
> some professional's work and while those in question don't seem to
> care, I personally hate it).
> 

Gimp 8 bit only !?! clarify context and format, seems a very broad and
sweeping generalisation  I find gimp a bit counter intuitive on
occasion but I also have the same problem with photoshop. To be honest I
only worked with the driver and graphic library side in the (very
distant) past, and rarely do things with actual images...


> 3) Irritations with web plugins. Idiots out there keep writing stuff
> that's windows only, and there always seems to be trouble trying to
> get the latest Flash player. When it's available, it's tricky to
> install.
> 

Personally, must remember to kill things like flash player, one of my
pet hates is going to website and finding that need to load the latest
flash player to even get in..., I usually want info, not pretty moving
pictures... 


> 4) Palm pilot-: Several versions of palm device just don't sync,
> needless to say, this includes some that matter to me. I don't know
> how to sync my palm and evolution-etc. with web calendars like google
> or yahoo. That's important to me. I gave up using my palm pilot
> because of this. Consequently, I'm appallingly badly organized and
> regularly double book myself and miss meetings.
> 

PDA synchronisation is a complex area, Palm originally went the
direction that built their own environment within Windows and it worked
well (pity PalmOS was so limited).

Symbian/PSION went the route of integrating with the Windows desktop and
often it was more than a bit unreliable.

Both approaches are proprietorial, and Linux implementations were
largely reverse engineered (at least in the Symbian/PSION world).

A more modern route is SyncML and things have improved in the Linux
world in part because the specification is open. I would take a good
look at egroupware, the project management side looks like it has a lot
of potential and the basic SyncML support is there. An alternative for
synchronisation is funambol. To be honest I would not want to put my
personal schedule on third party supplier...

Calender synchronisation is still a problem area on all platforms. The
OMA SyncML specification is strong on the communication protocol but
there are aspects of the Server and Client responsibilities that are not
closely specified and are down the application developer.


> 5) Video; I have failed repeatedly to build a system that plays all
> reasonable kinds of video. Mostly this seems to be a deliberate
> policy on bill gates' part (and the lawyers and the evil patent
> system, of course). I've reached the point where I can do most file
> types with the exception of AVI with the type 9 codec.
> 

I first saw video on a PC in about 1990, at the time I thought it looked
pretty exciting, but now I rather wonder about its value.



> 6) Strange inconsistencies ("That can't happen"):
> 

Oh come on ! Again from past support experience this is not *just* a
linux issue... it surprising how inventive how people are at crocking
their PC no matter the platform... at least with Linux one has the
chance of finding out what happened and fix it without having to rebuild
the kit and caboodle from scratch!!!

M$ windows will work when you turn it on but take a look at link below

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2002/08/01/how_green_and_putrefying/





> Updates that break things, the various methods that I've found my

Think M$ patch Tuesday here :-)




- --
==
I have always wished that my computer would be as easy to use as my
telephone.
My wish has come true. I no longer know how to use my telephone.

Bjarne Stroustrup
==
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Re: [opensuse] Why are there not more using Linux

[M. Fioretti]

On Fri, Jan 25, 2008 09:48:20 AM -0500, Aaron Kulkis
([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:

>> cfr the Autocad paragraph and links in the second part of:
>> http://www.freesoftwaremagazine.com/articles/focus_format_history/
>
> There are industry standard file formats for CAD/CAM, and
> AutoCad can export and import to those formats.

of course, but the problem is with _past_ files. After you have been
tricked for years to save millions of files in the proprietary format,
converting them is a huge undertaking. Same with .doc, .xls etc,
really. In my opinion, the _real_ size of the problem is much smaller
than Microsoft, Autocad and similar companies make it appear, but that
is a separate, off topic thread so let's not go there.

In practice, to stay on topic, there is little doubt that many
businesses don't (even try to) use Linux just because they are or feel
locked by proprietary formats. And that the real or perceived effort
of converting away from those formats will continue to be very hard to
justify to managers, stock holders, etc... until such businesses are
told "if you want to get one single buck in government contracts from
now on, you must commit to only use non proprietary formats like ODF
etc... in those contracts, period". The avalanche effect at that point
would be enough to definitely protect Linux and make much easier for
everybody else to switch when they want.

Practically nobody bothers what sw he or she is running, as long as
their digital documents and communications aren't threatened. Selling
the beauty of modifying and sharing source code to a world which does
NOT want to program is a useless and hopeless mission, IMO.

Marco

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Re: [opensuse] Why are there not more using Linux?

[Randall R Schulz]

On Friday 25 January 2008 19:43, Kai Ponte wrote:
> ...
>
> Oh, and FWIW, Amazon runs everything - Windows, Linux, UNIX, MacOS.
> They have no "platform of choice" and run "whatever works" for the
> API. I remember reading that one amazon.com webpage may be loaded
> from 50 different servers running ten different OS's and variants.

It's true there's a mix, but the workhorses of their on-line presence 
are all Linux. Their data warehouse is based on Oracle, but I'm not 
sure which OS platform runs it. Many desktops within the organization 
are Windows, of course, but the software developers mostly use Linux. 
They do use virtualization, but it's Xen and both the host and guests 
are Linux.

But the preponderance of their operational IT infrastructure is vastly 
dominated by Linux.


And yes, I worked for them as a software engineer for a year and a half 
(in 2005 and 2006), so I have first-hand experience.


> ...
>
> --
> k


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Re: [opensuse] Why are there not more using Linux?

[Joe Sloan]

Chuck wrote:

> 
> lawl. Dude Sun and Sarc are going no where any time soon... just the
> opposite... Sparc IV+ & Solaris 10 dance circles around Linux on any
> hardware.. You need to spend some time in a true top-tier enterprise
> class data center. Linux still has scores or limitations holding it
> back in the enterprise realm. There is a reason the stuff is expensive
> -- its damn good.

I work for a fortune 100 company, and we run AIX, HPUX, Solaris, and
SuSE Enterprise Linux in our data centers. I have to smile at the idea
that solaris is somehow more robust than linux. Solaris is great, but so
is linux.

More and more, we're moving apps off of the old school legacy unix
platforms onto HP/Compaq servers running linux. And the results have
been very very good.

We have dozens of busy linux servers with over 500 days uptime - and the
uptime champ, by far for our whole enterprise? Take a guess:


[EMAIL PROTECTED]:~> uptime
  5:32pm  up 1016 days  1:24,  1 user,  load average: 2.47, 2.56, 2.36

An very busy old compaq 2450 running DB2, apache and websphere on SLES 9

Dude, there is *nothing* holding linux back here, other than fear and
ignorance - and now that the SCO lawsuit has all but died, that fear is
giving way to a new boldness - and I'm doing everything I can to fix the
ignorance.

Joe
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Re: [opensuse] Why are there not more using Linux?

[Kai Ponte]

On Friday 25 January 2008 03:42:16 pm Randall R Schulz wrote:
> On Friday 25 January 2008 14:54, Chuck wrote:
> > ...
> >
> > > I'm old school too.  But Suns and SPARCs are yesterday dude :)
> > > Linux and x86-64 are NOW!
> >
> > lawl. Dude Sun and Sarc are going no where any time soon... just the
> > opposite... Sparc IV+ & Solaris 10 dance circles around Linux on any
> > hardware.. You need to spend some time in a true top-tier enterprise
> > class data center. Linux still has scores or limitations holding it
> > back in the enterprise realm. There is a reason the stuff is
> > expensive -- its damn good.
>
> How do you explain the Googles and Amazons of this world, whose stock OS
> platform for customer-fronted services is Linux?
>
> I'm not saying Solaris is on its way out, but one can most certainly run
> very-large-scale enterprise operations on Linux. I tend to doubt
> it's "held back."

I had an interesting discussion regarding my data center yeterday. While 
advocating Linux for the data center the topic was brought up that we should 
use a "true server" such as FreeBSD UNIX or another UNIX variant.

I then reminded my peers that Linux runs several thousands of "true servers" 
and we should be the ones to talk, since we run Windows Workstations in our 
data center, with the exception of one ancient HP 3000. 

Oh, and FWIW, Amazon runs everything - Windows, Linux, UNIX, MacOS. They have 
no "platform of choice" and run "whatever works" for the API. I remember 
reading that one amazon.com webpage may be loaded from 50 different servers 
running ten different OS's and variants.

I know this is off-topic, and we should probably be discussing beer or at 
least wet t-shirts, but

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Re: [opensuse] Why are there not more using Linux?

[Randall R Schulz]

On Friday 25 January 2008 14:54, Chuck wrote:
> ...
> >
> > I'm old school too.  But Suns and SPARCs are yesterday dude :) 
> > Linux and x86-64 are NOW!
>
> lawl. Dude Sun and Sarc are going no where any time soon... just the
> opposite... Sparc IV+ & Solaris 10 dance circles around Linux on any
> hardware.. You need to spend some time in a true top-tier enterprise
> class data center. Linux still has scores or limitations holding it
> back in the enterprise realm. There is a reason the stuff is
> expensive -- its damn good.

How do you explain the Googles and Amazons of this world, whose stock OS 
platform for customer-fronted services is Linux?

I'm not saying Solaris is on its way out, but one can most certainly run 
very-large-scale enterprise operations on Linux. I tend to doubt 
it's "held back."


> ...
> --
> Chuck Carson - Sr. Software Engineer
> Galileo Educational Solutions


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Re: [opensuse] Why are there not more using Linux?

[Greg KH]

On Fri, Jan 25, 2008 at 04:54:05PM -0600, Chuck wrote:
> lawl. Dude Sun and Sarc are going no where any time soon... just the
> opposite... Sparc IV+ & Solaris 10 dance circles around Linux on any
> hardware..

They do?  On what hardware?  That doesn't match up with any benchmark
I've ever seen run in the past few years.

> You need to spend some time in a true top-tier enterprise
> class data center. Linux still has scores or limitations holding it
> back in the enterprise realm. There is a reason the stuff is expensive
> -- its damn good.

What are the limitations that you think Linux is having relating to
Solaris that is holding it back?  There are a few nicer clustering
options for Solaris that people are working on addressing, but Linux has
tons of things that Solaris just can't even do which are causing
customers to drop Sun very quickly.

Curious,

greg k-h
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Re: [opensuse] Why are there not more using Linux?

[Chuck]

On Jan 25, 2008 1:44 PM, Lincoln Rutledge <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hi Simon,
>
>
> Lincoln Rutledge
> Network Engineer
> OSC Networking
> 800-627-6420
>
> >>> Simon Roberts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 01/25/08 10:33 AM >>>
> OK, I've been wanting to answer this question for ages, but there's just so 
> much to say. In the end, I've given up trying to say everything completely 
> cohesively, and I'm just going to allow myself to ramble and hope it helps 
> some. First, a little background. I have a pretty good computer background. I 
> wrote 6502, Z80, 8088, 68000 and other machine languages starting  25 years 
> ago. I was a programmer for 15 years, writing network protocol software 
> before the TCP stack was generally available, Unix device drivers, and a 
> bunch of distributed control systems. Eventually I moved to corporate 
> teaching, which I still do. I was using Linux to
>
> Sounds like you've worked on some cool stuff :)  I wrote some Z80 assembler 
> myself.  I miss it.
>
>  teach TCP and Unix system administration in 1994, and other than Linux, I'm 
> mostly a Solaris body. I have 3 Linux systems at home, two of which dual-boot 
> with windows so I can run Photoshop in a color managed environment. I use 
> VMWare for some other windows stuff that's less crucial to me. I also have a 
> dual processor
>  SPARC/Solaris 10 system. I loath and detest bill gates and everything he 
> stands for. I regularly point out to
>
> I'm old school too.  But Suns and SPARCs are yesterday dude :)  Linux and 
> x86-64 are NOW!
>

lawl. Dude Sun and Sarc are going no where any time soon... just the
opposite... Sparc IV+ & Solaris 10 dance circles around Linux on any
hardware.. You need to spend some time in a true top-tier enterprise
class data center. Linux still has scores or limitations holding it
back in the enterprise realm. There is a reason the stuff is expensive
-- its damn good.


>  my students that his company is a marketing company (very effective one, 
> sadly) not a technology company. I believe they've never invented anything 
> good, and have damaged many, if not most, of the ideas they've 
> "appropriated". Until about 6 months ago, I was on a one man crusade to try 
> to get my friends all using Linux. Around about then (after one success,yay! 
> :) I finally gave up :( I can't begin to tell you the heartache, sadness, and 
> sense of failure I felt when I reached that decision. Anway, what follows are 
> some of the key/memorable personal experiences that wore me down and made me 
> give up. Please remember that I love Linux, I love the people who put their 
> effort into creating and maintaining it, and I think it has improved
>  tremendously in recent years. I blame nobody for the "weaknesses" outlined 
> below, other than what I see as bill
>  gates' unreasonable and amoral (but sadly, probably entirely legal) 
> practices.
>
> It's hard to support computers for friends and family.  I had to define a 
> boundary in my life:  no PC support off the clock.  It miffed some people but 
> I needed to do it.  And I like life better :)  Now, if they were running 
> Linux, I would spend lots of time fixing things :)
>
> 1) Hardware issues.
>   If you just walk into a store and ask for a machine that will be good to go 
> with Linux, they'll look at you blankly. It's a major effort to check the 
> details yourself. Most off the shelf machines don't tell you exactly what 
> cards they contain, and then it's often hard to find the devices in the HCLs.
>   New hardware--inevitably--is most likely to be unsupported or buggy.
>   Finding the HCLs used to be hard. I just checked, and this seems to have 
> been fixed (thanks someone! :)
>   HCL is online, and I don't usually have access to the internet when I'm in 
> a store browsing!
>   Whichever way you slice it, having to care about the exact hardware is a 
> pain. I don't see any way (other than having the leverage of micky$loth) to 
> get round this, and I certainly laud the efforts that have been made to 
> improve life
>
> This is true.
>
> 2) Photography related. I use Windows to run Photoshop CS2 in a color managed 
> workflow. In this, Linux doesn't cut it for two reasons:
>
>   Color management. I tried to work out how to do the LCMS stuff, and a bunch 
> of related color management options I though I was looking at, and just gave 
> up, too much like hard work. Also, I seem to have the wrong colorimeter 
> hardware already and am not willing to pay all over again for something else.
>
>   GIMP is only 8 bit. That's fire in theory, but when you mess with stuff 
> much, you quickly run into posterization (I see this even in some 
> professional's work and while those in question don't seem to care, I 
> personally hate it).
>
> I don't know.
>
> 3) Irritations with web plugins. Idiots out there keep writing stuff that's 
> windows only, and there always seems to be trouble trying to get the latest 
> Flash player. When it's available, it's tricky to in

Re: [opensuse] Why are there not more using Linux?

[M. Fioretti]

On Fri, Jan 25, 2008 07:33:38 AM -0800, Simon Roberts ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:

> OK, I've been wanting to answer this question for ages, but there's
> just so much to say.

Thanks for sharing these thoughts! Just one comment:

> All other attempts to migrate my friends were met with legitimate
> objections that I couldn't counter.

I have recently written a "How to turn into Free Software supporters
people who couldn't care less" with some practical advice at
http://digifreedom.net/node/103 . Judging from your very practical and
detailed notes, it is likely that that advice doesn't apply to at
least some of your friends, but there is one thing which is still
worth trying, namely the first paragraph:

"Focus on making people support Free Software, rather than using it"

At least in this particular moment (cfr OpenXML) it is quite urgent
that as many people as possible ask for adoption of really open
ICTstandards and Free Software (in this order) in Public
Administrations, even if they don't use Linux and don't plan to use
it.

Marco

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Re: [opensuse] Why are there not more using Linux

[Lincoln Rutledge]

There's a good article this month in Dr. Dobbs' Journal about the Brazilian 
development culture.  They have always had a 'must be grown here' ethic.  They 
banned DOS in the 80's, wrote LUA, and adopted Linux three years ago as a 
government IT plan.  It's only second to the US in number of skilled 
developers.  Sun GPL'd java because of Brazil.  And if Microsoft doesn't at 
least open up the sources for their libraries, eventually people are going to 
stop slamming their hand in the door on purpose and write in an environment 
where they do have source for the libraries.

Seriously, grepping through libraries beats printStackTrace().

Why would you pay for pain when there is pain and pleasure for free? :)

Linc
 

Lincoln Rutledge
Network Engineer
OSC Networking
800-627-6420

>>> "M. Fioretti" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 01/25/08 8:55 AM >>> 

On Mon, January 21, 2008 4:58 am, Aaron Kulkis wrote:

> With AutoCad, the better approach is to get them to port
> to Linux
> Of course, this is difficult to do as individuals, but
> small to medium-sized IT departments can.  You tell the
> AutoCad rep that the company's strategic direction is
> to move from Winows XP to Linux, and that if they want
> to continue selling, they have to keep up. IF not,
> you're going to be buying SDRC Ideas, or some other
> product that fits into your company's plans to NOT
> migrate to Vista.
>
> The threat of permanent loss of sales is an excellant
> motivator to these sorts of companies.

The problem is that such threats are only plausible if the customer
doesn't have plenty of data locked in a format that only Autocad
can fully understand, or will never receive from partners or potential
customers files in such formats that need to be read or modified. Not
really likely, see:

cfr the Autocad paragraph and links in the second part of:
http://www.freesoftwaremagazine.com/articles/focus_format_history/

Same scenario here:

> Once Linux captures a significant share of business desktops

this won't happen until those business users continue to receive
(or are required to send) files in the latest Microsoft Office formats,
whatever that is in any given moment.

In both cases, the most effective strategy, even if it's unglamourous,
to get to the point where you can really do everything you need under
Linux may be to demand laws that force all Public Administrations to
only accept, store or distribute files in non proprietary formats, or
at least formats that are 100% guaranteed to be fully usable under any
operating system, with _more_ than one software program.

Once businesses know that to keep selling goods or services to the state
or city Government they MUST deliver contracts, bids, technical drawings,
whatever, in formats that are completely usable with any operating sytems,
the rest will happen by itself.

And much sooner than if we wait for businesses who couldn't care less
of the license of the software they use, not when changing it would make
their existing files less readable (= interfere with "business as usual").

 Marco
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Re: [opensuse] Why are there not more using Linux?

[Lincoln Rutledge]

Hi Simon, 
 

Lincoln Rutledge
Network Engineer
OSC Networking
800-627-6420

>>> Simon Roberts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 01/25/08 10:33 AM >>> 
OK, I've been wanting to answer this question for ages, but there's just so 
much to say. In the end, I've given up trying to say everything completely 
cohesively, and I'm just going to allow myself to ramble and hope it helps 
some. First, a little background. I have a pretty good computer background. I 
wrote 6502, Z80, 8088, 68000 and other machine languages starting  25 years 
ago. I was a programmer for 15 years, writing network protocol software before 
the TCP stack was generally available, Unix device drivers, and a bunch of 
distributed control systems. Eventually I moved to corporate teaching, which I 
still do. I was using Linux to

Sounds like you've worked on some cool stuff :)  I wrote some Z80 assembler 
myself.  I miss it.

 teach TCP and Unix system administration in 1994, and other than Linux, I'm 
mostly a Solaris body. I have 3 Linux systems at home, two of which dual-boot 
with windows so I can run Photoshop in a color managed environment. I use 
VMWare for some other windows stuff that's less crucial to me. I also have a 
dual processor
 SPARC/Solaris 10 system. I loath and detest bill gates and everything he 
stands for. I regularly point out to

I'm old school too.  But Suns and SPARCs are yesterday dude :)  Linux and 
x86-64 are NOW!

 my students that his company is a marketing company (very effective one, 
sadly) not a technology company. I believe they've never invented anything 
good, and have damaged many, if not most, of the ideas they've "appropriated". 
Until about 6 months ago, I was on a one man crusade to try to get my friends 
all using Linux. Around about then (after one success,yay! :) I finally gave up 
:( I can't begin to tell you the heartache, sadness, and sense of failure I 
felt when I reached that decision. Anway, what follows are some of the 
key/memorable personal experiences that wore me down and made me give up. 
Please remember that I love Linux, I love the people who put their effort into 
creating and maintaining it, and I think it has improved
 tremendously in recent years. I blame nobody for the "weaknesses" outlined 
below, other than what I see as bill
 gates' unreasonable and amoral (but sadly, probably entirely legal) practices.

It's hard to support computers for friends and family.  I had to define a 
boundary in my life:  no PC support off the clock.  It miffed some people but I 
needed to do it.  And I like life better :)  Now, if they were running Linux, I 
would spend lots of time fixing things :)

1) Hardware issues.
  If you just walk into a store and ask for a machine that will be good to go 
with Linux, they'll look at you blankly. It's a major effort to check the 
details yourself. Most off the shelf machines don't tell you exactly what cards 
they contain, and then it's often hard to find the devices in the HCLs. 
  New hardware--inevitably--is most likely to be unsupported or buggy.
  Finding the HCLs used to be hard. I just checked, and this seems to have been 
fixed (thanks someone! :)
  HCL is online, and I don't usually have access to the internet when I'm in a 
store browsing!
  Whichever way you slice it, having to care about the exact hardware is a 
pain. I don't see any way (other than having the leverage of micky$loth) to get 
round this, and I certainly laud the efforts that have been made to improve life

This is true.

2) Photography related. I use Windows to run Photoshop CS2 in a color managed 
workflow. In this, Linux doesn't cut it for two reasons:

  Color management. I tried to work out how to do the LCMS stuff, and a bunch 
of related color management options I though I was looking at, and just gave 
up, too much like hard work. Also, I seem to have the wrong colorimeter 
hardware already and am not willing to pay all over again for something else.

  GIMP is only 8 bit. That's fire in theory, but when you mess with stuff much, 
you quickly run into posterization (I see this even in some professional's work 
and while those in question don't seem to care, I personally hate it).

I don't know.

3) Irritations with web plugins. Idiots out there keep writing stuff that's 
windows only, and there always seems to be trouble trying to get the latest 
Flash player. When it's available, it's tricky to install.

This is true.

4) Palm pilot-:
  Several versions of palm device just don't sync, needless to say, this 
includes some that matter to me.
  I don't know how to sync my palm and evolution-etc. with web calendars like 
google or yahoo. That's important to me. I gave up using my palm pilot because 
of this. Consequently, I'm appallingly badly organized and regularly double 
book myself and miss meetings. 

This is true.

5) Video; I have failed repeatedly to build a system that plays all reasonable 
kinds of video. Mostly this seems to be a deliberate policy on bill gates' part 
(and 

Re: [opensuse] Why are there not more using Linux?

[Rajko M.]

On Friday 25 January 2008 09:33:38 am Simon Roberts wrote:
> GIMP is only 8 bit.

Sounds strange. Do you mean 8 bit per color?

-- 
Regards,
Rajko
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Re: [opensuse] Why are there not more using Linux?

[M9.]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1



Simon Roberts schreef:
| OK, I've been wanting to answer this question for ages, but there's
just so much to say. In the end, I've given up trying to say everything
completely cohesively, and I'm just going to allow myself to ramble and
hope it helps some. First, a little background. I have a pretty good
computer background. I wrote 6502, Z80, 8088, 68000 and other machine
languages starting  25 years ago. I was a programmer for 15 years,
writing network protocol software before the TCP stack was generally
available, Unix device drivers, and a bunch of distributed control
systems. Eventually I moved to corporate teaching, which I still do. I
was using Linux to teach TCP and Unix system administration in 1994, and
other than Linux, I'm mostly a Solaris body. I have 3 Linux systems at
home, two of which dual-boot with windows so I can run Photoshop in a
color managed environment. I use VMWare for some other windows stuff
that's less crucial to me. I also have a dual processor
|  SPARC/Solaris 10 system. I loath and detest bill gates and everything
he stands for. I regularly point out to my students that his company is
a marketing company (very effective one, sadly) not a technology
company. I believe they've never invented anything good, and have
damaged many, if not most, of the ideas they've "appropriated". Until
about 6 months ago, I was on a one man crusade to try to get my friends
all using Linux. Around about then (after one success,yay! :) I finally
gave up :( I can't begin to tell you the heartache, sadness, and sense
of failure I felt when I reached that decision. Anway, what follows are
some of the key/memorable personal experiences that wore me down and
made me give up. Please remember that I love Linux, I love the people
who put their effort into creating and maintaining it, and I think it
has improved tremendously in recent years. I blame nobody for the
"weaknesses" outlined below, other than what I see as bill
|  gates' unreasonable and amoral (but sadly, probably entirely legal)
practices.
|
| 1) Hardware issues.
|   If you just walk into a store and ask for a machine that will be
good to go with Linux, they'll look at you blankly. It's a major effort
to check the details yourself. Most off the shelf machines don't tell
you exactly what cards they contain, and then it's often hard to find
the devices in the HCLs.
|   New hardware--inevitably--is most likely to be unsupported or buggy.
|   Finding the HCLs used to be hard. I just checked, and this seems to
have been fixed (thanks someone! :)
|   HCL is online, and I don't usually have access to the internet when
I'm in a store browsing!
|   Whichever way you slice it, having to care about the exact hardware
is a pain. I don't see any way (other than having the leverage of
micky$loth) to get round this, and I certainly laud the efforts that
have been made to improve life
|
| 2) Photography related. I use Windows to run Photoshop CS2 in a color
managed workflow. In this, Linux doesn't cut it for two reasons:
|
|   Color management. I tried to work out how to do the LCMS stuff, and
a bunch of related color management options I though I was looking at,
and just gave up, too much like hard work. Also, I seem to have the
wrong colorimeter hardware already and am not willing to pay all over
again for something else.
|
|   GIMP is only 8 bit. That's fire in theory, but when you mess with
stuff much, you quickly run into posterization (I see this even in some
professional's work and while those in question don't seem to care, I
personally hate it).
|
| 3) Irritations with web plugins. Idiots out there keep writing stuff
that's windows only, and there always seems to be trouble trying to get
the latest Flash player. When it's available, it's tricky to install.
|
| 4) Palm pilot-:
|   Several versions of palm device just don't sync, needless to say,
this includes some that matter to me.
|   I don't know how to sync my palm and evolution-etc. with web
calendars like google or yahoo. That's important to me. I gave up using
my palm pilot because of this. Consequently, I'm appallingly badly
organized and regularly double book myself and miss meetings.
|
| 5) Video; I have failed repeatedly to build a system that plays all
reasonable kinds of video. Mostly this seems to be a deliberate policy
on bill gates' part (and the lawyers and the evil patent system, of
course). I've reached the point where I can do most file types with the
exception of AVI with the type 9 codec.
|
| 6) Strange inconsistencies ("That can't happen"):
|
|   These are really hard, time-consuming, and often fruitless to debug.
My laptop (dual core 64bit Intel) won't shut down without crashing the
kernel. It will hibernate, and the file system journaling means that
I've been able to kill it when I have to shut it down completely, but
it's still irritating, and I long-ago gave up trying to fix it.
|
|   Updates that break things, the various me

Re: [opensuse] Why are there not more using Linux?

[Stevens]

On Friday 25 January 2008 10:06, Billie Walsh wrote:
>
> Big hassle. Plop in the CD that comes with whatever, click a few check
> box's, and it works. Bigger hassle, go to the web site and download a
> file. Run the file. Click a few check box's. It works.
>
> OK, OK, OK! I know it's not a "LINUX" problem. HOWEVER, it is a problem
> FOR Linux.
>

Billie:

That is the reason why Gates & Co are so big. They figured early on what it 
would take to get those ordinary morons to buy and use computers. 

As that old commercial said, "We don't want tunas with good taste, we want 
tuna that tastes good". 

Every Linux enthusiast who doesn't realize that you gotta "Keep It Simple, 
Stupid!" will never really understand what it takes to get Linux to the 
mass market. In today's reality Linux and, by extension, software that
runs on that platform, is just too much of a hassle for most people to 
accept. Most people don't want to take the time to screw around with a 
tool that they are trying to use to do a job.

Gates approach is absolutely correct. If it weren't, 80% or more
of the world's computers wouldn't be running his software. If those
in the Linux community want greater penetration of the market,
their mindset has to change.

Fred
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Re: [opensuse] Why are there not more using Linux?

[Stevens]

On Friday 25 January 2008 09:33, Simon Roberts wrote:
> 
> . Meanwhile, Linux seems to me to be a 
> good choice for companies where one install effort can be rolled out to
> hundreds of users, but less viable for intermediate home users who want
> to do interesting and different things, but aren't able to help
> themselves. The really basic users, who browse, send email, write the
> odd document, and look at jpeg images from their cameras have no
> problem. 

Simon:

Thanks for an excellent rant. I couldn't agree with you more. I share
your view of Gates & Co and your frustration with the steep learning
curve needed to transition from M$ to Linux for those intermediate
users which, unfortunately, is where most home users are. My mom
is almost 84 and she is running opensuse 10.2. All her apps are web
based: email and web browsing. She could be running a diskless
box with a live cd for all she cares. She is very computer
illiterate but she manages to read her bank account online and
can tell which renters have paid on time and she can read her mail.
Anything else stretches her tired old brain too far.

She is my only success story. My daughter and family had an
opensuse system but the slope-headed son-in-law had to have
Windows for his games. Their hardware is too limited to run
VirtualBox and wine doesn't run the games so they have WinXP
and a crapper full of trojans, etc which I won't fix. Tit for tat.

Sorta ditto for my other kid who is involved in some serious online
realtime high performance gaming which would be a major pain
in the ass to get working with Linux, if it were at all possible. So,
I use Linux primarily, have VirtualBox to use those Windows apps
that I need for business and, on those rare occasions where a
VB session won't work right, I have a bootable XP drive on the bus
that I can bring up. 

I have had more success with moving people to OpenOffice from
M$. I believe that once they learn firsthand that they can wean
away from Gates, they are more apt to look at an alternative to
Windows. But I also draw to inside straights.

Fred

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Re: [opensuse] Why are there not more using Linux?

[Billie Walsh]

Jonathan Ervine wrote:
> On Friday 25 January 2008 11:58:30 Billie Walsh wrote:
>   
>> On 01/24/2008 Jonathan Ervine wrote:
>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>>   
>> I never said these were "kernel developer" problems. Just that if the
>> Linux Community wants Average Joe User to move over then these are
>> problems that will have to be solved so they "just work".
>> 
>
> Why is it the responsibility of the 'Linux community' to fix problems with 
> hardware vendors not supplying the code to run their hardware or working with 
> the Linux driver project? How is the 'Linux community' supposed to solve 
> these problems? You're mailing to a Linux list, I think your list of 
> complaints is better directed elsewhere. Your email was also a direct reply 
> to one of the Linux kernel developers - hence why it seemed your complaints 
> were directed there...
>   

I didn't say the problems had to be resolved by the Linux Community as
such. I was reading all the stuff that was being written that didn't
address the original question so I popped in my $0.02 worth. The
original question, in case you've forgotten, is why aren't more people
using Linux. The question was asked on a Linux list. It wasn't asked on
a vendor list.

The fact that there was no quote in my original reply should have been a
clue that I wasn't replying directly to any one persons message.

Unlike some people I DO NOT keep every e-mail that comes through every
list I'm on. I read and delete. If it's something that I feel is
important I will save it to another folder. If it's REALLY important I
will print it. "Threading" would do no good because there is nothing to
"thread". Nothing in my "Trash" folder is over three days old. It
automatically deletes anything over that. If I don't need it in three
days I don't need it at all. I also don't read every header line for
line. In fact all I see in the header field is Subject, From, Date, To.
My preference.

>   
>> Average Joe User doesn't want to jump through hoops to make it work. He
>> just wants a computer that he can turn on and EVERYTHING works without
>> hastles.
>> 
>
> Then use the nv, radeon, Intel drivers for video and check the hardware 
> before 
> purchase? Even on Windows EVERYTHING doesn't work without hassles - you still 
> have to install vendor supplied drivers or visit websites to install drivers. 
> (Possibly, at a stretch, Macs provide the computing nirvana you're seeking)
>   

Big hassle. Plop in the CD that comes with whatever, click a few check
box's, and it works. Bigger hassle, go to the web site and download a
file. Run the file. Click a few check box's. It works.

OK, OK, OK! I know it's not a "LINUX" problem. HOWEVER, it is a problem
FOR Linux.

We do a little light tech support for a local ISP. I swear there are
people out there that are just plain to stupid to even own a computer.
About 90% are just barely able to turn one on and click the proper icon
to start a program.

>   
>> Me personally, I made a decision to move over and deal with things as
>> they come up. I have gotten my TV cards [ supported ] to work, off and
>> on. It's just way less hastle to turn on a TV than fart around in Yast
>> to get it to work every little bit. The WiFi card is "supported" but
>> about every third or fourth time I turn it on the damned thing won't
>> connect. Then I have to fart around with the setup to get it working
>> again. Most of the time if I'm in the computer room I just plug in the
>> cable.
>> 
>
> Complain to Atheros or whoever manufactures your wireless card. Ah yes, they 
> won't listen to you, so it's easier to complain here. Fortunately, I've never 
> had to use a madwifi card, although have had plenty of fun with Broadcom 
> wireless and ndiswrapper and now, bcm43xx firmware ripping. I can only assume 
> both these solutions are far superior to madwifi, as they don't refuse to 
> connect on every 3-4 connection attempts.
>
> Jon
>   
I'm not complaining. Just stating fact.
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Re: [opensuse] Why are there not more using Linux?

[Simon Roberts]

OK, I've been wanting to answer this question for ages, but there's just so 
much to say. In the end, I've given up trying to say everything completely 
cohesively, and I'm just going to allow myself to ramble and hope it helps 
some. First, a little background. I have a pretty good computer background. I 
wrote 6502, Z80, 8088, 68000 and other machine languages starting  25 years 
ago. I was a programmer for 15 years, writing network protocol software before 
the TCP stack was generally available, Unix device drivers, and a bunch of 
distributed control systems. Eventually I moved to corporate teaching, which I 
still do. I was using Linux to teach TCP and Unix system administration in 
1994, and other than Linux, I'm mostly a Solaris body. I have 3 Linux systems 
at home, two of which dual-boot with windows so I can run Photoshop in a color 
managed environment. I use VMWare for some other windows stuff that's less 
crucial to me. I also have a dual processor
 SPARC/Solaris 10 system. I loath and detest bill gates and everything he 
stands for. I regularly point out to my students that his company is a 
marketing company (very effective one, sadly) not a technology company. I 
believe they've never invented anything good, and have damaged many, if not 
most, of the ideas they've "appropriated". Until about 6 months ago, I was on a 
one man crusade to try to get my friends all using Linux. Around about then 
(after one success,yay! :) I finally gave up :( I can't begin to tell you the 
heartache, sadness, and sense of failure I felt when I reached that decision. 
Anway, what follows are some of the key/memorable personal experiences that 
wore me down and made me give up. Please remember that I love Linux, I love the 
people who put their effort into creating and maintaining it, and I think it 
has improved tremendously in recent years. I blame nobody for the "weaknesses" 
outlined below, other than what I see as bill
 gates' unreasonable and amoral (but sadly, probably entirely legal) practices.

1) Hardware issues.
  If you just walk into a store and ask for a machine that will be good to go 
with Linux, they'll look at you blankly. It's a major effort to check the 
details yourself. Most off the shelf machines don't tell you exactly what cards 
they contain, and then it's often hard to find the devices in the HCLs. 
  New hardware--inevitably--is most likely to be unsupported or buggy.
  Finding the HCLs used to be hard. I just checked, and this seems to have been 
fixed (thanks someone! :)
  HCL is online, and I don't usually have access to the internet when I'm in a 
store browsing!
  Whichever way you slice it, having to care about the exact hardware is a 
pain. I don't see any way (other than having the leverage of micky$loth) to get 
round this, and I certainly laud the efforts that have been made to improve life

2) Photography related. I use Windows to run Photoshop CS2 in a color managed 
workflow. In this, Linux doesn't cut it for two reasons:

  Color management. I tried to work out how to do the LCMS stuff, and a bunch 
of related color management options I though I was looking at, and just gave 
up, too much like hard work. Also, I seem to have the wrong colorimeter 
hardware already and am not willing to pay all over again for something else.

  GIMP is only 8 bit. That's fire in theory, but when you mess with stuff much, 
you quickly run into posterization (I see this even in some professional's work 
and while those in question don't seem to care, I personally hate it).

3) Irritations with web plugins. Idiots out there keep writing stuff that's 
windows only, and there always seems to be trouble trying to get the latest 
Flash player. When it's available, it's tricky to install.

4) Palm pilot-:
  Several versions of palm device just don't sync, needless to say, this 
includes some that matter to me.
  I don't know how to sync my palm and evolution-etc. with web calendars like 
google or yahoo. That's important to me. I gave up using my palm pilot because 
of this. Consequently, I'm appallingly badly organized and regularly double 
book myself and miss meetings. 

5) Video; I have failed repeatedly to build a system that plays all reasonable 
kinds of video. Mostly this seems to be a deliberate policy on bill gates' part 
(and the lawyers and the evil patent system, of course). I've reached the point 
where I can do most file types with the exception of AVI with the type 9 codec.

6) Strange inconsistencies ("That can't happen"):

  These are really hard, time-consuming, and often fruitless to debug. My 
laptop (dual core 64bit Intel) won't shut down without crashing the kernel. It 
will hibernate, and the file system journaling means that I've been able to 
kill it when I have to shut it down completely, but it's still irritating, and 
I long-ago gave up trying to fix it.

  Updates that break things, the various methods that I've found my systems 
using to auto-patch seem prone to fai

Re: [opensuse] Why are there not more using Linux

[M. Fioretti]

On Mon, January 21, 2008 4:58 am, Aaron Kulkis wrote:

> With AutoCad, the better approach is to get them to port
> to Linux
> Of course, this is difficult to do as individuals, but
> small to medium-sized IT departments can.  You tell the
> AutoCad rep that the company's strategic direction is
> to move from Winows XP to Linux, and that if they want
> to continue selling, they have to keep up. IF not,
> you're going to be buying SDRC Ideas, or some other
> product that fits into your company's plans to NOT
> migrate to Vista.
>
> The threat of permanent loss of sales is an excellant
> motivator to these sorts of companies.

The problem is that such threats are only plausible if the customer
doesn't have plenty of data locked in a format that only Autocad
can fully understand, or will never receive from partners or potential
customers files in such formats that need to be read or modified. Not
really likely, see:

cfr the Autocad paragraph and links in the second part of:
http://www.freesoftwaremagazine.com/articles/focus_format_history/

Same scenario here:

> Once Linux captures a significant share of business desktops

this won't happen until those business users continue to receive
(or are required to send) files in the latest Microsoft Office formats,
whatever that is in any given moment.

In both cases, the most effective strategy, even if it's unglamourous,
to get to the point where you can really do everything you need under
Linux may be to demand laws that force all Public Administrations to
only accept, store or distribute files in non proprietary formats, or
at least formats that are 100% guaranteed to be fully usable under any
operating system, with _more_ than one software program.

Once businesses know that to keep selling goods or services to the state
or city Government they MUST deliver contracts, bids, technical drawings,
whatever, in formats that are completely usable with any operating sytems,
the rest will happen by itself.

And much sooner than if we wait for businesses who couldn't care less
of the license of the software they use, not when changing it would make
their existing files less readable (= interfere with "business as usual").

 Marco
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Re: Open Graphic Cards for Linux WAS: [opensuse] Why are there not more using Linux?

[Johannes Nohl]

> > Just out of curiosity, can you recommend a good(similar features to
> > nVidia/ATI) graphic card, for which opensource drivers (including 'all'(at
> > least the most) features) exist?
> >
> > It should be able to run with Windows too and be able to play 3D games, etc.
> > (I'm honestly interested)
>
> Intel graphic chips meet this requirement, it is what I use and
> recommend others to purchase if they have a choice.

1) I can support this. There's no except Intel. And that's the
problem. Have you ever seen an Intel PCIe card? Ever seen a integrated
gpu on a non Intel chipset mainboard?

Funny that running linux on notebooks results to best graphics card support...

2) I would buy a fully open source driven card. Even with little 3d
support. It's still more than my ATI Radeon X300 (radeon driver not
fglrx). I never got fglrx to work and I honestly don't want to,
really.

3) ATI's open source driver - for new cards only - seems to be a marketing gag.

Greetings,

Johannes
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Re: [opensuse] Why are there not more using Linux

[Aaron Kulkis]

Doug McGarrett wrote:

On Sunday 20 January 2008 06:06, Philippe Landau wrote:

Dave Barton wrote:

From: Philippe Landau <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>


You are tenacious, Dave, great :-)

Some may say tenacious, others would say that I am too stupid to know
when to give up. ;)

You wanted to but were kind enough to honour the efforts of list members
:-)


Still no joy with Lilo ?

Did give LiLo a shot, but the situation is even worse. On boot I get
half a screen full of 01s and then total lockup, requiring a hardware
reset. Thanks for trying to help, but I am sad to say Microsoft has won
this box.

Did anyone ever attempt to make a systematic survey
of reasons why Linux remains such a small player ?
Of course corruption on a massive scale is involved
in selling Windows to governments and corporations.
But why is the percentage of surfers using Linux so small ?
Is it mainly because of the games or are the shortcomings
of Linux an important factor and which ones most ?

Kind regards Philippe



From my own point of view, the lack of support for peripherals is one of

the biggest problems for Linux.  Yes, I know that the source codes are
not available, and I'm not a real programmer myself, but some of this
stuff could be reverse-engineered, rather than every six months a new
version of the OS, full of bugs.  Fix some version of Linux, then concentrate
on getting things to work with it.  When you can plug in almost any 
name-brand printer, almost any USB camera, drive, memory card, etc.,


That's the current state right now, Canon printers  being the
primary exclusion (they refuse to release technical data to
allow the development of proper code to get full utilization
of their printers.

My solution -- I buy equipment from everyone except Canon
(my digital camera is an exception, because it DOES work
with Linux through the USB port, and I have a significant
investement in lenses with my Canon EOS 10 film camera)



then concentrate on getting unique Windows programs to work flawlessly
by emulation--I think of AutoCad, GW Basic, Borland Pascal, Corel Draw,
and so on (maybe some do already, but it's easier to just go to Windows
to run them)


With AutoCad, the better approach is to get them to port
to Linux.  Much of the CAD industry, which used to be
almost exclusively on proprietary Unix platforms (and
optionally on Windows) has been ported to Linux.

If all of the niche applications which support 3 or 4
kinds of Unix, and Windows can also support Linux, then
it shouldn't be a problem for AutoCad to port to Linux.

Of course, this is difficult to do as individuals, but
small to medium-sized IT departments can.  You tell the
AutoCad rep that the company's strategic direction is
to move from Winows XP to Linux, and that if they want
to continue selling, they have to keep up.  IF not,
you're going to be buying SDRC Ideas, or some other
product that fits into your company's plans to NOT
migrate to Vista.

The threat of permanent loss of sales is an excellant
motivator to these sorts of companies.

>--then I think Linux has a much better chance to catch on.

While Linux seems to be pointed at the business world, which has, in
general, a rather narrow batch of program types--word processing, 
spread sheets, and slide illustrations, and can pretty much do that, it

needs to become more friendly to the home user, who would certainly
prefer not to have to pay off M/S every year or so, as is becoming
obviously their way of life.  "If it ain't broke, don't fix it."--Ann Landers.
And, of course, games.  I'm not a gamer.  I play solitaire sometimes,
but that's about it.  But games would get a _big_ play (no pun intended)
if there were a lot for Linux.



Sales of "consumer" software for the IBM PC didn't come around
until there was a significant installed base on business-world
desktops -- because that caused a significant amount of sales
of PC clones for home use.

Once Linux captures a significant share of business desktops,
the share of home usage will start to expand significantly,
and at that point, THEN you will see consumer-type software
being written and sold for Linux.


One problem I see:  Linux is sorta free--if you don't want a lot of the good
stuff*--but to get the freebie, you have to have a computer running an OS.
It seems to be getting more expensive and complicated to get an OS on
disk, so the idea of getting a version that does everything on an intallable 
disk set, with a manual, and is as bug-free as possible for a reasonable 
price, that I can buy, preferably at Borders, that will last for years, is 
something I would really appreciate.  

*SuSE/Novell has already cut out a lot of the good stuff that used to come 
with the OS. Free or paid.  For SHAME!  (It would seem to me that an

entrepenour who sold the "good stuff" on a disk compatible with SuSE
could make a buck at it.  Except that the damned dependencies seem to 
change with every version.)



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Re: [opensuse] Why are there not more using Linux?

[Philippe Landau]

Jonathan Ervine wrote:
Complain to Atheros or whoever manufactures your wireless card. Ah yes, they 
won't listen to you, so it's easier to complain here. 

Wow, obviously you feel the need to attack a list member here.
Billie Walsh (below) never complained, just explained his troubles.
Maybe Novell could instead try to find a reply to the question above ?
Did Novell research that question and what did they find, Jonathan ?

Philippe

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Jonathan Ervine wrote:

On Friday 25 January 2008 11:58:30 Billie Walsh wrote:

> On 01/24/2008 Jonathan Ervine wrote:

> > You can complain to the hardware vendor, you can take your business
> > to
> > hardware vendors that provide good support or at least information to
> > the
> > kernel developers. Things are improving, and there is still work to
> > do, but
> > to lay the blame at the kernel developers door is a bit unfair, even
> > if it is
> > the easier target.
> >
> > Jon

>
> I never said these were "kernel developer" problems. Just that if the
> Linux Community wants Average Joe User to move over then these are
> problems that will have to be solved so they "just work".

Obviously he does not complain, instead explains his opinion.

Why is it the responsibility of the 'Linux community' to fix problems with 
hardware vendors not supplying the code to run their hardware or working with 
the Linux driver project? How is the 'Linux community' supposed to solve 
these problems? You're mailing to a Linux list, I think your list of 
complaints is better directed elsewhere. Your email was also a direct reply 
to one of the Linux kernel developers - hence why it seemed your complaints 
were directed there...



> Average Joe User doesn't want to jump through hoops to make it work. He
> just wants a computer that he can turn on and EVERYTHING works without
> hastles.


Then use the nv, radeon, Intel drivers for video and check the hardware before 
purchase? Even on Windows EVERYTHING doesn't work without hassles - you still 
have to install vendor supplied drivers or visit websites to install drivers. 
(Possibly, at a stretch, Macs provide the computing nirvana you're seeking)



> Me personally, I made a decision to move over and deal with things as
> they come up. 

Does that sound like Billie is complaining ?


> I have gotten my TV cards [ supported ] to work, off and
> on. It's just way less hastle to turn on a TV than fart around in Yast
> to get it to work every little bit. The WiFi card is "supported" but
> about every third or fourth time I turn it on the damned thing won't
> connect. Then I have to fart around with the setup to get it working
> again. Most of the time if I'm in the computer room I just plug in the
> cable.

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Re: [opensuse] Why are there not more using Linux?

[Aaron Kulkis]

Billie Walsh wrote:

On 01/24/2008 Jonathan Ervine wrote:

You can complain to the hardware vendor, you can take your business
to
hardware vendors that provide good support or at least information to
the
kernel developers. Things are improving, and there is still work to
do, but
to lay the blame at the kernel developers door is a bit unfair, even
if it is
the easier target.

Jon


I never said these were "kernel developer" problems. Just that if the
Linux Community wants Average Joe User to move over then these are
problems that will have to be solved so they "just work".



The solution is for YOU, the user, to Buy ONLY from vendors who
do one of the following:

1: Write proper Linux drivers for their products

2: Work with the kernel developers

or

3: Release the specs needed to write a proper driver.

In other words, ONLY buy equipment that's listed on the
supported hardware lists.

If it's not supported, then vote with your MONEY,
and go buy something else that *IS* supported.


Average Joe User doesn't want to jump through hoops to make it work. He
just wants a computer that he can turn on and EVERYTHING works without
hastles.


Then you have to apply the appropriate ECONOMIC INCENTIVE
for hardware vendors to give proper support.

Back in the 1980's, EVERYTHING came with a complete spec
sheet, or even booklet, if needed, so that anyone could
write drivers for a card.




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Re: [opensuse] Why are there not more using Linux?

[Aaron Kulkis]

Janne Karhunen wrote:

On Thu, 2008-01-24 at 08:54 -0800, Greg KH wrote:


And no, I don't have all the hardware at all, that's impossible.  I've
written drivers for devices where I have never seen the hardware, and
they work just fine (or so I'm told.)  Having the hardware, or even
access to it is not a requirement at all to do development and/or
maintenance.


Given that you want to be absolutely certain you didn't 
break it you effectively need to retest. But obviously
once again we are serving and relying on hordes of Joe 
Random Hackers that will retest the driver and report. 
Single regression for 'normal' user would probably 
render the whole thing useless.




So most certainly maintenance is not done. And actually,
most of the testing effort done against the original driver
was just rendered useless with the API tweak.

No, not at all.  That's just not how the Linux kernel development
process works, sorry.  I can go into the whole testing process if you
really want to know, but that has nothing to do with the change of APIs.


Well, duh. Of course any change, API or otherwise, can
trigger a regression. And the regressions make it sure 
real life John/Jane Does fail using Linux. I use the
word 'regression' because 99.999% of all imaginable 
things have used to work in some version of Linux..




I find it odd that people who do not have experience in doing Linux
kernel development and API changes would insist that the current model
we are using is broken...


No no, you got this all wrong. I'm not saying I know 
a better solution - far from it. All I'm trying to 
say is that current model does *not* serve _regular_ 
users. Linux is a hacker tool for hackers. That's 
what the topic was all about.




No, not at all.  You should be able to drop in a new kernel just fine,
with only minor package updates at times.

Joe Random Hacker can, regular user can't.

rpm -ihv new_kernel_package.rpm

zypper install new_kernel_package.rpm


You really can't be serious here. Now, please explain
in detail what regular user would do if that left him/
her without a working kernel. This happens at least 
once per month to me.


Not a single IT department on this whole planet would 
allow you to reinstall kernel to get one bloody driver
update. It usually takes gazillion geeks to fix the 
regressions that show'd up. This costs some serious

money. Really.




or use some gui tool.  People do it all the time.  And they help us out
with testing in ways that we developers can not do.  So yes, "regular
user" can do this, and they do, every single day.


You obviously have very different view of 'regular 
user' than the rest of us. John/Jane Doe can NOT 
help you debug a kernel. Nor does he/she wish to.

Heck, she doesn't even know what kernel IS.




I'm a systems engineer (and I've spent my entire time
in the Unix world, going back to 1983, with some
experience with Linux -- all my home machines are Linux)
and frankly, even I don't have the confidence to be
doing the kinds of things that Greg is talking about.

Frankly, if something goes wrong, I don't want to
spend the time trying to undo it all.  So, I wait
for the "official" software updates with everything
all worked out.

And, until this mess is worked out with the 3D cards,
i'm just not using hardware 3D, unless it's OpenGL.

I don't need the headaches.



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Re: [opensuse] Why are there not more using Linux?

[Jonathan Ervine]

On Friday 25 January 2008 11:58:30 Billie Walsh wrote:
> On 01/24/2008 Jonathan Ervine wrote:
> > You can complain to the hardware vendor, you can take your business
> > to
> > hardware vendors that provide good support or at least information to
> > the
> > kernel developers. Things are improving, and there is still work to
> > do, but
> > to lay the blame at the kernel developers door is a bit unfair, even
> > if it is
> > the easier target.
> >
> > Jon
>
> I never said these were "kernel developer" problems. Just that if the
> Linux Community wants Average Joe User to move over then these are
> problems that will have to be solved so they "just work".

Why is it the responsibility of the 'Linux community' to fix problems with 
hardware vendors not supplying the code to run their hardware or working with 
the Linux driver project? How is the 'Linux community' supposed to solve 
these problems? You're mailing to a Linux list, I think your list of 
complaints is better directed elsewhere. Your email was also a direct reply 
to one of the Linux kernel developers - hence why it seemed your complaints 
were directed there...

> Average Joe User doesn't want to jump through hoops to make it work. He
> just wants a computer that he can turn on and EVERYTHING works without
> hastles.

Then use the nv, radeon, Intel drivers for video and check the hardware before 
purchase? Even on Windows EVERYTHING doesn't work without hassles - you still 
have to install vendor supplied drivers or visit websites to install drivers. 
(Possibly, at a stretch, Macs provide the computing nirvana you're seeking)

> Me personally, I made a decision to move over and deal with things as
> they come up. I have gotten my TV cards [ supported ] to work, off and
> on. It's just way less hastle to turn on a TV than fart around in Yast
> to get it to work every little bit. The WiFi card is "supported" but
> about every third or fourth time I turn it on the damned thing won't
> connect. Then I have to fart around with the setup to get it working
> again. Most of the time if I'm in the computer room I just plug in the
> cable.

Complain to Atheros or whoever manufactures your wireless card. Ah yes, they 
won't listen to you, so it's easier to complain here. Fortunately, I've never 
had to use a madwifi card, although have had plenty of fun with Broadcom 
wireless and ndiswrapper and now, bcm43xx firmware ripping. I can only assume 
both these solutions are far superior to madwifi, as they don't refuse to 
connect on every 3-4 connection attempts.

Jon
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Re: [opensuse] Why are there not more using Linux?

[Billie Walsh]

On 01/24/2008 Jonathan Ervine wrote:
> You can complain to the hardware vendor, you can take your business
> to
> hardware vendors that provide good support or at least information to
> the
> kernel developers. Things are improving, and there is still work to
> do, but
> to lay the blame at the kernel developers door is a bit unfair, even
> if it is
> the easier target.
>
> Jon

I never said these were "kernel developer" problems. Just that if the
Linux Community wants Average Joe User to move over then these are
problems that will have to be solved so they "just work".

Average Joe User doesn't want to jump through hoops to make it work. He
just wants a computer that he can turn on and EVERYTHING works without
hastles.

Me personally, I made a decision to move over and deal with things as
they come up. I have gotten my TV cards [ supported ] to work, off and
on. It's just way less hastle to turn on a TV than fart around in Yast
to get it to work every little bit. The WiFi card is "supported" but
about every third or fourth time I turn it on the damned thing won't
connect. Then I have to fart around with the setup to get it working
again. Most of the time if I'm in the computer room I just plug in the
cable.
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Re: [opensuse] Why are there not more using Linux?

[Jonathan Ervine]

On Friday 25 January 2008 01:31:41 Billie Walsh wrote:
> First off let me say that as a normal home user I love Linux.
>
> HOWEVER, some things either just plain won't work or are WAY to much
> trouble get working.
>
> WiFi - I have an Atheros card for my laptop. Madwifi works most of the
> time. BUT, every time I turn on the computer I have to fart around for
> 30/45 minutes to get the darned thing to connect.

Using the madwifi drivers/firmware combo. The driver is included in the 
openSUSE 10.3 distribution and there is a repo for the remaining code at 
madwifi.org. This 'hassle' is absolutely _not_ the fault of the kernel 
developers. The chipset you are using uses code that cannot be freely 
distributed with the kernel under it's current license. It's this license, by 
the way, that continues to guarantee your freedom to use Linux, and that work 
from the whole community can be used by everyone. The fault here lies with 
hardware vendor for not providing open source drivers or working with the 
Linux driver project. The Linux distributions are doing the best they can 
with the restrictions being placed upon them by the hardware vendors.

> TV cards - Lets just say it's way more trouble that it's worth. A
> Television set is WAY easier.

TV cards - there's a wide variety of TV cards that work well with Linux. 
Myth-TV is a fantastic PVR application that maintains a good list of working 
TV cards. Again, a failure by the hardware vendors to open their drivers or 
work with the Linux driver project can hardly be laid at the kernel 
developers door. Did you know the Linux driver project developers will 
evensign NDAs with hardware vendors to try and ensure that drivers can be put 
into the Linux kernel?

> DVD Playback [ Multimedia ] - Actually works without to much trouble,
> most of the time. BUT a DVD player is cheap and loads easier.

This is not a driver issue at all, but is down purely to DRM. When you buy an 
encrypted DVD, you're not actually buying the content on the disc, but in 
reality just the rights to view the content on devices that are permitted by 
the studios/recording associations etc. There's very little personal freedom 
there whatsoever. Distributing the keys to enable the playback of encrypted 
DVDs is a breach of the DCMA in the US, which is why they're not included 
with distributions that are distributed freely in the US. Unencrypted DVDs 
play straight out of the box with no hassle at all.

> Video cards - besides WiFi cards this has to be one of the worst
> features. I see more problem e-mails for those two than just about
> anything else Average Joe User is going to use. Someone, aon an offshoot
> of this thread, that if your having trouble with Nvidia don't buy
> Nvidia. WELL, sometimes that isn't an option that's available. Not
> everyone is on an unlimited budget and can buy just THE perfect
> computer. [ I have an ATI and it works just fine for my use without any
> problem ]

Video cards work fine in Linux. You can use the open source nv driver with 
nVidia cards, the open source radeon driver with ATI cards. But I suspect 
that the main complaint here is wanting 3D (wobbly windows) with these cards 
and so hence use the proprietary video drivers with these cards. Again, this 
goes back to the hardware vendors refusing to play nicely with the Linux 
kernel developers. There is a kernel released under a specific license and 
the hardware vendors in this instance are not 'playing by the rules'. In most 
instances, Intel graphics cards tend to be cheaper than ATI/nVidia cards - 
and the drivers are usually in the kernel.

> OK, I know these are, for the most part, things that nothing can be done
> about. BUT, the question was asked why more people don't use Linux.
> There's part of the reason Average Joe User doesn't use Linux.

You can complain to the hardware vendor, you can take your business to 
hardware vendors that provide good support or at least information to the 
kernel developers. Things are improving, and there is still work to do, but 
to lay the blame at the kernel developers door is a bit unfair, even if it is 
the easier target.

Jon
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Re: [opensuse] Why are there not more using Linux?

[Janne Karhunen]

On Thu, 2008-01-24 at 08:54 -0800, Greg KH wrote:

> And no, I don't have all the hardware at all, that's impossible.  I've
> written drivers for devices where I have never seen the hardware, and
> they work just fine (or so I'm told.)  Having the hardware, or even
> access to it is not a requirement at all to do development and/or
> maintenance.

Given that you want to be absolutely certain you didn't 
break it you effectively need to retest. But obviously
once again we are serving and relying on hordes of Joe 
Random Hackers that will retest the driver and report. 
Single regression for 'normal' user would probably 
render the whole thing useless.


> > So most certainly maintenance is not done. And actually,
> > most of the testing effort done against the original driver
> > was just rendered useless with the API tweak.
> 
> No, not at all.  That's just not how the Linux kernel development
> process works, sorry.  I can go into the whole testing process if you
> really want to know, but that has nothing to do with the change of APIs.

Well, duh. Of course any change, API or otherwise, can
trigger a regression. And the regressions make it sure 
real life John/Jane Does fail using Linux. I use the
word 'regression' because 99.999% of all imaginable 
things have used to work in some version of Linux..


> I find it odd that people who do not have experience in doing Linux
> kernel development and API changes would insist that the current model
> we are using is broken...

No no, you got this all wrong. I'm not saying I know 
a better solution - far from it. All I'm trying to 
say is that current model does *not* serve _regular_ 
users. Linux is a hacker tool for hackers. That's 
what the topic was all about.


> > > No, not at all.  You should be able to drop in a new kernel just fine,
> > > with only minor package updates at times.
> > 
> > Joe Random Hacker can, regular user can't.
> 
> rpm -ihv new_kernel_package.rpm
> 
> zypper install new_kernel_package.rpm

You really can't be serious here. Now, please explain
in detail what regular user would do if that left him/
her without a working kernel. This happens at least 
once per month to me.

Not a single IT department on this whole planet would 
allow you to reinstall kernel to get one bloody driver
update. It usually takes gazillion geeks to fix the 
regressions that show'd up. This costs some serious
money. Really.



> or use some gui tool.  People do it all the time.  And they help us out
> with testing in ways that we developers can not do.  So yes, "regular
> user" can do this, and they do, every single day.

You obviously have very different view of 'regular 
user' than the rest of us. John/Jane Doe can NOT 
help you debug a kernel. Nor does he/she wish to.
Heck, she doesn't even know what kernel IS.


> > That, and I don't think SUSE would be too happy supporting
> > 2.6.23.14 for SLED10 either. Andreas, would you be happy
> > with it :) ?
> 
> But we do support it for openSuSE, right?

Your point being? Not even SuSE can commit to making
new kernels work on SLED (and that's even relatively
new distribution). Now, how precisely you think 
regular users could do it? Let's stick the topic to
get John/Jane Doe to Linux.



> > > So, in the "real life" it isn't a load of bollocks, sorry :)
> > 
> > OK, try asking your auntie to do the same thing ;)
> 
> My anutie doesn't run RHEL3, she's smarter than that :)

So she's reinstalling openSuSE twice per year ;) ?



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Re: [opensuse] Why are there not more using Linux?

[Billie Walsh]

First off let me say that as a normal home user I love Linux.

HOWEVER, some things either just plain won't work or are WAY to much
trouble get working.

WiFi - I have an Atheros card for my laptop. Madwifi works most of the
time. BUT, every time I turn on the computer I have to fart around for
30/45 minutes to get the darned thing to connect.

TV cards - Lets just say it's way more trouble that it's worth. A
Television set is WAY easier.

DVD Playback [ Multimedia ] - Actually works without to much trouble,
most of the time. BUT a DVD player is cheap and loads easier.

Video cards - besides WiFi cards this has to be one of the worst
features. I see more problem e-mails for those two than just about
anything else Average Joe User is going to use. Someone, aon an offshoot
of this thread, that if your having trouble with Nvidia don't buy
Nvidia. WELL, sometimes that isn't an option that's available. Not
everyone is on an unlimited budget and can buy just THE perfect
computer. [ I have an ATI and it works just fine for my use without any
problem ]

OK, I know these are, for the most part, things that nothing can be done
about. BUT, the question was asked why more people don't use Linux.
There's part of the reason Average Joe User doesn't use Linux.
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Re: Open Graphic Cards for Linux WAS: [opensuse] Why are there not more using Linux?

[Fabio Comolli]

He asked for opensource drivers, nvidia drivers are binary blobs.

On Jan 24, 2008 5:45 PM, David C. Rankin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> M. Skiba wrote:
> > Am Mittwoch, 23. Januar 2008 22:03:53 schrieb Greg KH:
> >> Then don't buy nvidia hardware.  Again, simple answer :)
> >
> > Just out of curiosity, can you recommend a good(similar features to
> > nVidia/ATI) graphic card, for which opensource drivers (including 'all'(at
> > least the most) features) exist?
> >
> > It should be able to run with Windows too and be able to play 3D games, etc.
> > (I'm honestly interested)
> >
> > Greetings
> > Michael
>
> Anything nVidia - NOT ATI!
>
> The nvidia driver support is great. ATI is a pain to get working I 
> have
> current ATI bugs open right now - driver lock ups, library SONAME
> problems, See:
>
> https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=338930
> https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=338947
> https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=340459
> https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=344135
>
> I recently found an MSI nVidia 8600GT pci-e overclock edition card for
> $97. Gives over 10300 FPS in glxgears. ATI support for Linux drives lags
> well behind nvidia. (but it is improving) If you wait a month until the
> ATI 8.45 driver is out, things might be different, but that is where it
> stands now.
>
> --
> David C. Rankin, J.D., P.E.
> Rankin Law Firm, PLLC
> 510 Ochiltree Street
> Nacogdoches, Texas 75961
> Telephone: (936) 715-9333
> Facsimile: (936) 715-9339
> www.rankinlawfirm.com
>
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>
>
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Re: [opensuse] Why are there not more using Linux?

[Greg KH]

On Thu, Jan 24, 2008 at 11:25:23AM +0200, Janne Karhunen wrote:
> On Jan 23, 2008 11:08 PM, Greg KH <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
> > In the end, the development time for a driver developer for Linux is
> > less than that of other operating systems as the maintaince is done for
> > them for all future versions, and the ammount of code they have to write
> > in the first place is smaller.
> 
> API tweaking might be done for you automatically, but
> certainly _not_ maintenance or testing. Or don't tell me
> you have every piece of hardware supported by Linux
> available and that you  actually do test if you broke
> them :)

API changes are almost always made in such a way that they break when
the code builds.  So if you fix up the build, the code will work
properly.

And no, I don't have all the hardware at all, that's impossible.  I've
written drivers for devices where I have never seen the hardware, and
they work just fine (or so I'm told.)  Having the hardware, or even
access to it is not a requirement at all to do development and/or
maintenance.

> So most certainly maintenance is not done. And actually,
> most of the testing effort done against the original driver
> was just rendered useless with the API tweak.

No, not at all.  That's just not how the Linux kernel development
process works, sorry.  I can go into the whole testing process if you
really want to know, but that has nothing to do with the change of APIs.

I find it odd that people who do not have experience in doing Linux
kernel development and API changes would insist that the current model
we are using is broken...

> > > > This also provides a more secure, and better product for the user in the
> > > > end.  They never need to worry about external drivers, and everything
> > > > "just works" for them automatically.
> > >
> > > As I told you before, this is a nice idea but 'in real life'
> > > it's load of bollocks :). If we don't make it possible for
> > > users to install 'out-of-tree' drivers (and just drivers,
> > > nothing else) they are forced to do major kernel update
> > > after each new gadget bought. And that, in real life terms,
> > > means totally new OS to install. Plug and play, you say?
> >
> > No, not at all.  You should be able to drop in a new kernel just fine,
> > with only minor package updates at times.
> 
> Joe Random Hacker can, regular user can't.

rpm -ihv new_kernel_package.rpm

zypper install new_kernel_package.rpm

or use some gui tool.  People do it all the time.  And they help us out
with testing in ways that we developers can not do.  So yes, "regular
user" can do this, and they do, every single day.

> That, and I don't think SUSE would be too happy supporting
> 2.6.23.14 for SLED10 either. Andreas, would you be happy
> with it :) ?

But we do support it for openSuSE, right?  I have argued that the SLED
model is broken in the past, so let's not bring that up here again.  The
"enterprise" model does not lend itself to changing the kernel like this
I know, and that is one reason I do not think it is viable over the long
term.

But again, that has nothing to do with the issue at hand.  If Novell
wants to continue to support SLED, then they will do the backporting for
you, and then you just install a new kernel (like you do for security
updates, which also happen to suck in a lot of driver updates at the
same time.)

> > As proof that this works, I was just talking with a very large company
> > that relies on Linux last week.  They use RHEL 3 on almost all of their
> > systems.   But as RHEL 3 is 2.4 based, and doesn't support a lot of new
> > hardware, and has lots of other issues, they just drop in the latest
> > 2.6 kernel on their own, and their developers never even notice the
> > difference, except that their machines work better.
> >
> > So, in the "real life" it isn't a load of bollocks, sorry :)
> 
> OK, try asking your auntie to do the same thing ;)

My anutie doesn't run RHEL3, she's smarter than that :)

> > > IMHO the whole concept of providing complete kernel in one
> > > huge blob is flawed. Optimal case would be to break it into
> > > pieces with no dependencies.
> >
> > I'd be interested in seeing your patches to attempt such a thing.
> 
> With current design this would probably be impossible :/

Ok then, so you are asking for something that is impossible :(

But why do you think we have made it so impossible, could it be that
this model happens to be better?

Nah, those kernel developers, they don't really know what they are doing
at all...

Gotta love the trust...

greg k-h
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Re: Open Graphic Cards for Linux WAS: [opensuse] Why are there not more using Linux?

[David C. Rankin]

M. Skiba wrote:

Am Mittwoch, 23. Januar 2008 22:03:53 schrieb Greg KH:

Then don't buy nvidia hardware.  Again, simple answer :)


Just out of curiosity, can you recommend a good(similar features to 
nVidia/ATI) graphic card, for which opensource drivers (including 'all'(at 
least the most) features) exist?


It should be able to run with Windows too and be able to play 3D games, etc. 
(I'm honestly interested)


Greetings
Michael


Anything nVidia - NOT ATI!

	The nvidia driver support is great. ATI is a pain to get working I have 
current ATI bugs open right now - driver lock ups, library SONAME 
problems, See:


https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=338930
https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=338947
https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=340459
https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=344135

	I recently found an MSI nVidia 8600GT pci-e overclock edition card for 
$97. Gives over 10300 FPS in glxgears. ATI support for Linux drives lags 
well behind nvidia. (but it is improving) If you wait a month until the 
ATI 8.45 driver is out, things might be different, but that is where it 
stands now.


--
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Rankin Law Firm, PLLC
510 Ochiltree Street
Nacogdoches, Texas 75961
Telephone: (936) 715-9333
Facsimile: (936) 715-9339
www.rankinlawfirm.com
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Re: Open Graphic Cards for Linux WAS: [opensuse] Why are there not more using Linux?

[Greg KH]

On Thu, Jan 24, 2008 at 02:30:31PM +0100, M. Skiba wrote:
> Am Mittwoch, 23. Januar 2008 22:03:53 schrieb Greg KH:
> > Then don't buy nvidia hardware. ?Again, simple answer :)
> 
> Just out of curiosity, can you recommend a good(similar features to 
> nVidia/ATI) graphic card, for which opensource drivers (including 'all'(at 
> least the most) features) exist?
> 
> It should be able to run with Windows too and be able to play 3D games, etc. 
> (I'm honestly interested)

Intel graphic chips meet this requirement, it is what I use and
recommend others to purchase if they have a choice.

thanks,

greg k-h
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Re: [opensuse] Why are there not more using Linux?

[Greg KH]

On Thu, Jan 24, 2008 at 04:28:17PM +0100, Philippe Landau wrote:
> Greg KH wrote:
>> On Wed, Jan 23, 2008 at 10:10:14PM +0200, Alexey Eremenko wrote:
>>> Now - the newbie user:
>>> It is *really* daunting to update a kernel and find, that Nvidia
>>> driver (and X.org) do not run on my desktop anymore.
>> Then don't buy nvidia hardware.  Again, simple answer :)
> For quite some time Nvidia had better support on Linux then ATI.
> As a consequence many Linux users have Nvidia cards now.
> Is ATI fully open-source now ? Is that what you would buy ?

Intel is fully supported, with open drivers.  That is what I would
recommend that you purchase.  It's what I buy with my own money.

>> Seriously, I really don't care about companies that violate the license
>> of the Linux kernel, and I'm not going to do ANYTHING to help them out.
>> Why would you expect me, or any other kernel developer to do otherwise?
> With that attitude no wonder people are having serious problems
> with the latest security updates
> (see ongoing topic "Latest Update Kills Server").

Again, there is _nothing_ that we can do to help with this, as their
code is closed.

>> Do companies help other companies out that violate their licenses?  No,
>> they take legal action against them.
> Does Nvidia violate a license ?

Yes, it violates mine, and the other kernel developer's copyright on the
kernel when they distribute a pre-built kernel module.

thanks,

greg k-h
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Open Graphic Cards for Linux WAS: [opensuse] Why are there not more using Linux?

[M. Skiba]

Am Mittwoch, 23. Januar 2008 22:03:53 schrieb Greg KH:
> Then don't buy nvidia hardware.  Again, simple answer :)

Just out of curiosity, can you recommend a good(similar features to 
nVidia/ATI) graphic card, for which opensource drivers (including 'all'(at 
least the most) features) exist?

It should be able to run with Windows too and be able to play 3D games, etc. 
(I'm honestly interested)

Greetings
Michael


signature.asc
Description: This is a digitally signed message part.

Re: [opensuse] Why are there not more using Linux?

[Philippe Landau]

Greg KH wrote:

On Wed, Jan 23, 2008 at 10:10:14PM +0200, Alexey Eremenko wrote:

Now - the newbie user:
It is *really* daunting to update a kernel and find, that Nvidia
driver (and X.org) do not run on my desktop anymore.


Then don't buy nvidia hardware.  Again, simple answer :)

For quite some time Nvidia had better support on Linux then ATI.
As a consequence many Linux users have Nvidia cards now.
Is ATI fully open-source now ? Is that what you would buy ?


Seriously, I really don't care about companies that violate the license
of the Linux kernel, and I'm not going to do ANYTHING to help them out.
Why would you expect me, or any other kernel developer to do otherwise?

With that attitude no wonder people are having serious problems
with the latest security updates
(see ongoing topic "Latest Update Kills Server").


Do companies help other companies out that violate their licenses?  No,
they take legal action against them.

Does Nvidia violate a license ?

Kind regards Philippe
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Re: [opensuse] Why are there not more using Linux?

[Janne Karhunen]

On Jan 23, 2008 11:08 PM, Greg KH <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> In the end, the development time for a driver developer for Linux is
> less than that of other operating systems as the maintaince is done for
> them for all future versions, and the ammount of code they have to write
> in the first place is smaller.

API tweaking might be done for you automatically, but
certainly _not_ maintenance or testing. Or don't tell me
you have every piece of hardware supported by Linux
available and that you  actually do test if you broke
them :)

So most certainly maintenance is not done. And actually,
most of the testing effort done against the original driver
was just rendered useless with the API tweak.


> > > This also provides a more secure, and better product for the user in the
> > > end.  They never need to worry about external drivers, and everything
> > > "just works" for them automatically.
> >
> > As I told you before, this is a nice idea but 'in real life'
> > it's load of bollocks :). If we don't make it possible for
> > users to install 'out-of-tree' drivers (and just drivers,
> > nothing else) they are forced to do major kernel update
> > after each new gadget bought. And that, in real life terms,
> > means totally new OS to install. Plug and play, you say?
>
> No, not at all.  You should be able to drop in a new kernel just fine,
> with only minor package updates at times.

Joe Random Hacker can, regular user can't.

That, and I don't think SUSE would be too happy supporting
2.6.23.14 for SLED10 either. Andreas, would you be happy
with it :) ?


> As proof that this works, I was just talking with a very large company
> that relies on Linux last week.  They use RHEL 3 on almost all of their
> systems.   But as RHEL 3 is 2.4 based, and doesn't support a lot of new
> hardware, and has lots of other issues, they just drop in the latest
> 2.6 kernel on their own, and their developers never even notice the
> difference, except that their machines work better.
>
> So, in the "real life" it isn't a load of bollocks, sorry :)

OK, try asking your auntie to do the same thing ;)

Yeah, it's a piece of software. Given enough time and
money anything can be done for it. But whether or not
it's feasible is another thing.


> > IMHO the whole concept of providing complete kernel in one
> > huge blob is flawed. Optimal case would be to break it into
> > pieces with no dependencies.
>
> I'd be interested in seeing your patches to attempt such a thing.

With current design this would probably be impossible :/


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Re: [opensuse] Why are there not more using Linux?

[Greg KH]

On Wed, Jan 23, 2008 at 10:27:38PM +0200, Janne Karhunen wrote:
> On Wed, 2008-01-23 at 09:00 -0800, Greg KH wrote:
> 
> > Do you even know what our rate of change is?  I just ran the numbers
> > last week, and they are much larger than has ever been reported in the
> > past...
> 
> No-one really cares what the rate of change is provided that
> amount of regressions stays relatively low. Surprisingly, it 
> has. And that _has_ to be major surprise for everyone.

Yes, a very pleasant one :)

> > > I believe having stable kernel ABI can save many work hours of driver
> > > developer's, because they won't need to update their drivers every
> > > time when someone else broke something.
> > 
> > I'm sorry you feel this way, but you haven't justified why this is so.
> > If you get your driver into the main kernel tree, any changes to the ABI
> > are done automatically for you.
> 
> If it's really trivial driver; otherwise you have to commit
> yourself to be the maintainer and constant API tweaker anyway.

No, not at all.  If I change an internal kernel api (like I just did in
the kobject core), then it is up to me to fix up all users of that api
in the kernel so that nothing breaks.  The original developer does not
have to do any work.

Lots of developers go away after they get their driver into the kernel
tree, never to be seen again.  And their code keeps on working just
fine.  I can name hundreds of drivers like this.

In the end, the development time for a driver developer for Linux is
less than that of other operating systems as the maintaince is done for
them for all future versions, and the ammount of code they have to write
in the first place is smaller.

What's not to like about that?  :)

> >   So that means that it saves the driver
> > developer's time even more that way, as they do not need to ever update
> > their driver again, which is not something that any other operating
> > system can provide.
> > 
> > This also provides a more secure, and better product for the user in the
> > end.  They never need to worry about external drivers, and everything
> > "just works" for them automatically.
> 
> As I told you before, this is a nice idea but 'in real life'
> it's load of bollocks :). If we don't make it possible for
> users to install 'out-of-tree' drivers (and just drivers, 
> nothing else) they are forced to do major kernel update
> after each new gadget bought. And that, in real life terms,
> means totally new OS to install. Plug and play, you say?

No, not at all.  You should be able to drop in a new kernel just fine,
with only minor package updates at times.

As proof that this works, I was just talking with a very large company
that relies on Linux last week.  They use RHEL 3 on almost all of their
systems.   But as RHEL 3 is 2.4 based, and doesn't support a lot of new
hardware, and has lots of other issues, they just drop in the latest
2.6 kernel on their own, and their developers never even notice the
difference, except that their machines work better.

So, in the "real life" it isn't a load of bollocks, sorry :)

> IMHO the whole concept of providing complete kernel in one
> huge blob is flawed. Optimal case would be to break it into
> pieces with no dependencies.

I'd be interested in seeing your patches to attempt such a thing.

> > > I believe development can go without breaking _already working_
> > > things. At least not every micro-release.
> > 
> > Please explain, in detail, how this can happen.
> > 
> > Also, please explain how the different points that are expressed in the
> > file, Documentation/stable_api_nonsense.txt are not correct, and can
> > somehow be handled with your proposed stable api.
> 
> It's not incorrect, it's just that you have basically ruled
> out regular users to serve joe random hacker (a guy that 
> doesn't mind installing new OS twice per year). I'm fine 
> with that, but I doubt that was the original strategy.
> 
> That said, IMHO kernel is doing great. It's the Linux 
> userland that sucks.

Hey, patches always are gladly accepted :)

thanks,

greg k-h
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Re: [opensuse] Why are there not more using Linux?

[Greg KH]

On Wed, Jan 23, 2008 at 10:10:14PM +0200, Alexey Eremenko wrote:
> Think of a developer. An OSS GPL one :)
> 
> It takes 100 hours to make a driver (LKM), plus 1 hour per month to
> update it. But what happens, when he decided to move to another
> project ?
> 
> If there are users to his project, but no developers among them, they
> are in trouble, because no-one will help them.

Ah, this is a simple one, turn the code over to the 300+ developers at
linuxdriverproject.org, who are willing and able to clean up the driver,
get it into the main Linux kernel tree, and maintain it over time.

That is exactly why that project is there, and what it is currently
doing already.

So I don't really see the problem here :)

> Now - the newbie user:
> It is *really* daunting to update a kernel and find, that Nvidia
> driver (and X.org) do not run on my desktop anymore.

Then don't buy nvidia hardware.  Again, simple answer :)

Seriously, I really don't care about companies that violate the license
of the Linux kernel, and I'm not going to do ANYTHING to help them out.
Why would you expect me, or any other kernel developer to do otherwise?

Do companies help other companies out that violate their licenses?  No,
they take legal action against them.

> > How do you measure "too fast"?  What rate of change would be acceptable
> > for you?  Can you quantify that based on the need for change in the
> > market and environment that Linux is in?
> >
> > Do you even know what our rate of change is?  I just ran the numbers
> > last week, and they are much larger than has ever been reported in the
> > past...
> >
> 
> Yes I know... ~2 million lines of code per month, or ~6m lines of code
> per kernel release (3 months). Any rate is acceptable by me, and no
> need to slow-down. Linux gains features very quickly now.
> But I'm not speaking about that - but about changes that break things.
> 
> Other OS kernels (Windows NT 5.x, Solaris UNIX) have also hi rate of
> changes, yet they manage to stay more compatible.

"compatible" with what?  New hardware?  No.  New operating environments?
No.  Both of them are having major problems with these very things.

And if you find problems that are regressions that break things, please
let the kernel developers know, they are more than willing to fix them.

> But generally, I can tell how it can happen: we need to look after
> ourselves and see which kernel commit requires other LKM developers
> most pain - i.e. most broken modules (both in-kernel LKMs and
> third-party, out-of-tree), then revert those changes back.

How can I, the person who makes the kernel change, see into the closed
source modules of third-party developers, and see how it will affect
them?  How can I even know what kernel drivers that are open source out
there floating around outside of the kernel tree do?  The model doesn't
work that way, sorry.

If I change a kernel api, I go through the whole tree and fix up every
usage of it to work properly.  By doing that, the original developer
doesn't have to worry about it at all, so in the end, they do even less
work than any other operating system driver developer would (including
the fact that Linux drivers are, on average, 30% smaller than other
operating system drivers.)

thanks,

greg k-h
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Re: [opensuse] Why are there not more using Linux?

[Janne Karhunen]

On Wed, 2008-01-23 at 09:00 -0800, Greg KH wrote:

> Do you even know what our rate of change is?  I just ran the numbers
> last week, and they are much larger than has ever been reported in the
> past...

No-one really cares what the rate of change is provided that
amount of regressions stays relatively low. Surprisingly, it 
has. And that _has_ to be major surprise for everyone.


> > I believe having stable kernel ABI can save many work hours of driver
> > developer's, because they won't need to update their drivers every
> > time when someone else broke something.
> 
> I'm sorry you feel this way, but you haven't justified why this is so.
> If you get your driver into the main kernel tree, any changes to the ABI
> are done automatically for you.

If it's really trivial driver; otherwise you have to commit
yourself to be the maintainer and constant API tweaker anyway.



>   So that means that it saves the driver
> developer's time even more that way, as they do not need to ever update
> their driver again, which is not something that any other operating
> system can provide.
> 
> This also provides a more secure, and better product for the user in the
> end.  They never need to worry about external drivers, and everything
> "just works" for them automatically.

As I told you before, this is a nice idea but 'in real life'
it's load of bollocks :). If we don't make it possible for
users to install 'out-of-tree' drivers (and just drivers, 
nothing else) they are forced to do major kernel update
after each new gadget bought. And that, in real life terms,
means totally new OS to install. Plug and play, you say?

IMHO the whole concept of providing complete kernel in one
huge blob is flawed. Optimal case would be to break it into
pieces with no dependencies. 



> > I believe development can go without breaking _already working_
> > things. At least not every micro-release.
> 
> Please explain, in detail, how this can happen.
> 
> Also, please explain how the different points that are expressed in the
> file, Documentation/stable_api_nonsense.txt are not correct, and can
> somehow be handled with your proposed stable api.

It's not incorrect, it's just that you have basically ruled
out regular users to serve joe random hacker (a guy that 
doesn't mind installing new OS twice per year). I'm fine 
with that, but I doubt that was the original strategy.

That said, IMHO kernel is doing great. It's the Linux 
userland that sucks.


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Re: [opensuse] Why are there not more using Linux

[James Knott]

Jerry Feldman wrote:

On Sun, 20 Jan 2008 12:06:02 +0100
Philippe Landau <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


Did anyone ever attempt to make a systematic survey
of reasons why Linux remains such a small player ?
Of course corruption on a massive scale is involved
in selling Windows to governments and corporations.
But why is the percentage of surfers using Linux so small ?
Is it mainly because of the games or are the shortcomings
of Linux an important factor and which ones most ?


Marketing and timing. First, today Linux is a good desktop product, but
still needs a bit of polish for the average PC user. But the problem is
marketing. Microsoft buys big TV ads and has the clout and volume to
get the major PC vendors to bundle their products.  HP, IBM, SGI market
their servers with Linux, but currently only Dell even sells consumer
PCs with Linux.


Actually, Lenovo does too and I think I heard something about HP.  And 
there are many smaller vendors that sell computers with Linux  Also, 
both Sears & Wal-Mart in the U.S. are selling low end computers with 
Linux installed.



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Re: [opensuse] Why are there not more using Linux?

[Alexey Eremenko]

Hello again Greg,

> Hi (you forgot a "-" in my name :)
well, GMail also represents you that way, without "-". So I follow the
Google-friend :)

OK, let's leave the philosophical discussions aside between GPL and
non-GPL drivers, for now.

> > Keeping up with Linux changing takes up driver developer's time.
>
> Yes.

> > I believe having stable kernel ABI can save many work hours of driver
> > developer's, because they won't need to update their drivers every
> > time when someone else broke something.
>
> I'm sorry you feel this way, but you haven't justified why this is so.
> If you get your driver into the main kernel tree, any changes to the ABI
> are done automatically for you.  So that means that it saves the driver
> developer's time even more that way, as they do not need to ever update
> their driver again, which is not something that any other operating
> system can provide.
>
> This also provides a more secure, and better product for the user in the
> end.  They never need to worry about external drivers, and everything
> "just works" for them automatically.

This is a problem.

Think of a developer. An OSS GPL one :)

It takes 100 hours to make a driver (LKM), plus 1 hour per month to
update it. But what happens, when he decided to move to another
project ?

If there are users to his project, but no developers among them, they
are in trouble, because no-one will help them.

1. They could support themselves, if there was a stable API+ABI.
2. That developer wouldn't need spend extra hour per month just to
update his driver, because it would "just work".

Now - the newbie user:
It is *really* daunting to update a kernel and find, that Nvidia
driver (and X.org) do not run on my desktop anymore. The newbies among
us will have to reformat&reinstall, because X.org won't start - no
NVIDIA driver - and X doesn't have auto-fallback (which is a problem
in itself, but not related), and they will end up booting into
black-screen. And unlike Window's Blue Screen, here "reset" won't
help.

Proprietary company:
1. It is possible to talk to those companies, but again, they usually
do not release their drivers as Open-Source, if they release at all.
2. Even if they release it as Open-Source, it may be outdated, and
won't compile on new kernels - again users won't be able to use this
driver.
3. Most proprietary companies understand that supporting out-of-tree
LKM is very difficult, and may refuses to develop one for this reason.
But it differently, with better API/ABI stability, more companies will
invest in developing Linux drivers.

I believe it is unfair model, where users need to waste a lot of time
to fight problems, that shouldn't even exist.

>
> > And kernel interfaces are changing too fast.
>
> How do you measure "too fast"?  What rate of change would be acceptable
> for you?  Can you quantify that based on the need for change in the
> market and environment that Linux is in?
>
> Do you even know what our rate of change is?  I just ran the numbers
> last week, and they are much larger than has ever been reported in the
> past...
>

Yes I know... ~2 million lines of code per month, or ~6m lines of code
per kernel release (3 months). Any rate is acceptable by me, and no
need to slow-down. Linux gains features very quickly now.
But I'm not speaking about that - but about changes that break things.

Other OS kernels (Windows NT 5.x, Solaris UNIX) have also hi rate of
changes, yet they manage to stay more compatible.

> > I believe development can go without breaking _already working_
> > things. At least not every micro-release.
>
> Please explain, in detail, how this can happen.
>
> Also, please explain how the different points that are expressed in the
> file, Documentation/stable_api_nonsense.txt are not correct, and can
> somehow be handled with your proposed stable api.

I do not propose APIs/ABIs yet :(
I should try to ask some serious kernel hackers beforehand. Otherwise
I lack your "in detail" part of question, and I will miss the point.
Sorry, cannot answer on this question fully this time.

But generally, I can tell how it can happen: we need to look after
ourselves and see which kernel commit requires other LKM developers
most pain - i.e. most broken modules (both in-kernel LKMs and
third-party, out-of-tree), then revert those changes back. Sounds
stupid, but with time we will be able to guess-ahead what kinds of
changes/commits makes problems to others, and try not to break those
parts. This may work not like "stable API", but more like
trial-n-error - "scientific method to stability".

Again, I would like to discuss possible solutions...

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Re: [opensuse] Why are there not more using Linux (was: Grub Error 21

[Jerry Feldman]

On Sun, 20 Jan 2008 12:06:02 +0100
Philippe Landau <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Did anyone ever attempt to make a systematic survey
> of reasons why Linux remains such a small player ?
> Of course corruption on a massive scale is involved
> in selling Windows to governments and corporations.
> But why is the percentage of surfers using Linux so small ?
> Is it mainly because of the games or are the shortcomings
> of Linux an important factor and which ones most ?

Marketing and timing. First, today Linux is a good desktop product, but
still needs a bit of polish for the average PC user. But the problem is
marketing. Microsoft buys big TV ads and has the clout and volume to
get the major PC vendors to bundle their products.  HP, IBM, SGI market
their servers with Linux, but currently only Dell even sells consumer
PCs with Linux. Additionally, the consumer is confused. There are a
number of different Linux distros where there is 1 Windows. United
Linux was a good idea until the SCO group (eg. Caldera) started suing
everyone. 

IMHO, the only was Linux will really be a major force on the desktop is
for the major distro companies (eg. Novell, Red Hat, Mandrivia, and
Canonical) form a marketing alliance. The problem here (ignoring some
anti-trust laws) is can these companies actually work together. And if
there is better market penetration, how are these companies going to
market their own distribution.  

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Boston Linux and Unix
PGP key id: 537C5846
PGP Key fingerprint: 3D1B 8377 A3C0 A5F2 ECBB  CA3B 4607 4319 537C 5846


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Re: [opensuse] Why are there not more using Linux?

[Greg KH]

On Wed, Jan 23, 2008 at 04:26:53PM +, Alexey Eremenko wrote:
> Dear Greg KH,

Hi (you forgot a "-" in my name :)

> I have read your documents about kernel drivers and binary compatibility.
> 
> Well, I disagree with your position. I don't think that getting all
> the drivers into the kernel is good idea at all.

I'm sorry you feel this way.

> This is because when
> you have 2 competing drivers, that are doing nearly the same thing,
> one of them will not be accepted.

Do you have an example of such a thing?  We have multiple drivers for
the same device today in the kernel, and have had more in the past.

Ideally it's not the best thing, but we do seem to work around it ok :)

> Additionally, my philosophy says it is OK to have non-GPL (and
> non-Freedom) drivers for Linux. Those cannot be inserted into mainline
> of course.

I'm sorry your philosophy happens to be contrary to what the law, and
what the GPL is understood to be about.  I'm not going to try to change
your philosophy, just state that it is not in line with what I, and the
lawyers for all of the major Linux companies have come to understand
over the years (including Novell.)  Also look at the public statements
that IBM has made regarding the GPL and Linux kernel drivers in the
past.  If you disagree with IBM's lawyers, I would be very interested in
hearing your legal position in detail.

> Additionally, I believe it is not correct to force to developer to
> maintain his driver.

No one is forcing anyone to use Linux here.

> Keeping up with Linux changing takes up driver developer's time.

Yes.

> And kernel interfaces are changing too fast.

How do you measure "too fast"?  What rate of change would be acceptable
for you?  Can you quantify that based on the need for change in the
market and environment that Linux is in?

Do you even know what our rate of change is?  I just ran the numbers
last week, and they are much larger than has ever been reported in the
past...

> I believe having stable kernel ABI can save many work hours of driver
> developer's, because they won't need to update their drivers every
> time when someone else broke something.

I'm sorry you feel this way, but you haven't justified why this is so.
If you get your driver into the main kernel tree, any changes to the ABI
are done automatically for you.  So that means that it saves the driver
developer's time even more that way, as they do not need to ever update
their driver again, which is not something that any other operating
system can provide.

This also provides a more secure, and better product for the user in the
end.  They never need to worry about external drivers, and everything
"just works" for them automatically.

> I believe development can go without breaking _already working_
> things. At least not every micro-release.

Please explain, in detail, how this can happen.

Also, please explain how the different points that are expressed in the
file, Documentation/stable_api_nonsense.txt are not correct, and can
somehow be handled with your proposed stable api.

thanks,

greg k-h
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Re: [opensuse] Why are there not more using Linux?

[Alexey Eremenko]

Dear Greg KH,

I have read your documents about kernel drivers and binary compatibility.

Well, I disagree with your position. I don't think that getting all
the drivers into the kernel is good idea at all. This is because when
you have 2 competing drivers, that are doing nearly the same thing,
one of them will not be accepted.

Additionally, my philosophy says it is OK to have non-GPL (and
non-Freedom) drivers for Linux. Those cannot be inserted into mainline
of course.

Additionally, I believe it is not correct to force to developer to
maintain his driver. Keeping up with Linux changing takes up driver
developer's time. And kernel interfaces are changing too fast. I
believe having stable kernel ABI can save many work hours of driver
developer's, because they won't need to update their drivers every
time when someone else broke something.

I believe development can go without breaking _already working_
things. At least not every micro-release.

Current situation is insane - I have a real-life example: Getting
NVIDIA drivers, then updating the kernel breaks it again. I believe
NVIDIA has the right to build proprietary drivers, if they so choose.

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Re: [opensuse] Why are there not more using Linux?

[Aaron Kulkis]

Jerry Houston wrote:

Sunny wrote:

Exposing the kids to different environments is very important in terms
of making them adapt easier to a changed situation. Exactly like the
languages - kids learn easier and faster a second (and third language)
than adults. And when they have the mindset to think in different
languages, it's easier for them to learn yet another one. And another
one ...
  


Exactly.  And exposing them to only _one_ environment doesn't encourage
them to learn those skills.


So you're saying that they're not going to be exposed to
Windows outside your home?

What city do you live in?   I want to move there!


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Re: [opensuse] Why are there not more using Linux?

[Aaron Kulkis]

Chris Ross wrote:


Aaron Kulkis escreveu:

The problem is that right now, there is a dearth of
Linux titles for modern games.   A couple FPS have
been ported, but ever since Loki went out of business,
the opportunity to run things like RailRoad Tycoon,
unfortunately depends on a Windows installation :-(.


You're presumably aware of LGP who seem to have picked up

> the mantle from Loki in porting commercial games to Linux,
> even maintaining some of Loki's ports such as MindRover?
> http://www.linuxgamepublishing.com
>

Sadly, they seem to have a marketing budget of about 20p.

> I only discovered them by chance but we bought "x2: The
> Threat" from them and we're planning on buying more. Partly,
> truth be known, to support anybody brave enough to try
> creating a market for Linux games. I bought pretty much
> everything Loki published for similar reasons but it didn't

seem to do them any good :(


I think one of the best policies is to mention these
sorts of companies as much as possible -- word of
mouth helps overcome a shoe-string advertising budget --
look at how many Linux web servers were set up in
corporate environments before most people had even
heard of Redhat.


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Re: [opensuse] Why are there not more using Linux?

[Clayton]

> You're presumably aware of LGP who seem to have picked up the mantle
> from Loki in porting commercial games to Linux, even maintaining some of
> Loki's ports such as MindRover? http://www.linuxgamepublishing.com
> Sadly, they seem to have a marketing budget of about 20p. I only
> discovered them by chance but we bought "x2: The Threat" from them and
> we're planning on buying more. Partly, truth be known, to support
> anybody brave enough to try creating a market for Linux games. I bought
> pretty much everything Loki published for similar reasons but it didn't
> seem to do them any good :(


I have been a beta tester for LGP for several years now.  The current
one in beta is X3... coming along nicely.  no idea when it'll be ready
though.

C.
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Re: [opensuse] Why are there not more using Linux?

[Doug McGarrett]

On Monday 21 January 2008 12:30, Aaron Kulkis wrote:
> Jerry Houston wrote:
> > James Knott wrote:
> >> Why is it that people have to learn Windows or Microsoft Office,
> >> instead of how to use a computer or an office suite?  Do you teach
> >> your kids how to drive a Ford?  Or how to drive a car?  We should be
> >> teaching skills, not products.
> >
> > I love my kids too much to teach them to drive a Ford.  
> >
> > Seriously, I don't think it's a valid comparison.  Cars are designed to
> > be nearly universal, and those differences that exist (headlight,
> > cruise, heater controls, etc.) can be figured out in minutes.  Operating
> > systems and the applications that run on them have much steeper learning
> > curves.
>
> Bull.

Try running Pro-E when you have only experience in Auto-Cad, and see how
far your argument gets you.  Yes, Fords work like Chevys, but computer 
programs do not necessarily do so.
>

/snip/

doug

Blessed are the peacemakers ... for they shall be shot at from both sides.
--A.M. Greeley
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Re: [opensuse] Why are there not more using Linux?

[Chris Ross]

Aaron Kulkis escreveu:

The problem is that right now, there is a dearth of
Linux titles for modern games.   A couple FPS have
been ported, but ever since Loki went out of business,
the opportunity to run things like RailRoad Tycoon,
unfortunately depends on a Windows installation :-(.


You're presumably aware of LGP who seem to have picked up the mantle 
from Loki in porting commercial games to Linux, even maintaining some of 
Loki's ports such as MindRover? http://www.linuxgamepublishing.com
Sadly, they seem to have a marketing budget of about 20p. I only 
discovered them by chance but we bought "x2: The Threat" from them and 
we're planning on buying more. Partly, truth be known, to support 
anybody brave enough to try creating a market for Linux games. I bought 
pretty much everything Loki published for similar reasons but it didn't 
seem to do them any good :(


Regards,
Chris R.
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Re: [opensuse] Why are there not more using Linux?

[James Knott]

Jerry Houston wrote:
> James Knott wrote:
>   
>> Again, teach them the skill.  It doesn't take a genius to find out how
>> to do something in a new app, that they've already been doing.  On the
>> other hand, teaching people that the Microsoft way is the only way is
>> doing them a great disservice.
>> 
>
> Please, review the history of this thread and find where I've ever
> suggested that.
>
>   
A couple of messages back, IIRC, you said people should learn Microsoft
software to join the work force.  I countered with they should learn how
to use applications.  While many people use Microsoft Office, there are
also many who use Word Perfect or OpenOffice/StarOffice.  With the way
Vista and Office 2007 are going, knowing only Microsoft Office might be
a limiting factor.


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Re: [opensuse] Why are there not more using Linux?

[Jerry Houston]

Aaron Kulkis wrote:
> The only problem with using Windows as the primary learning
> platform is that the whole MS training point of view is
> that of "how to use release X of MS software product Y"
> or "how to MS XP works"... instead of teaching general
> computing principles.

Since this has devolved into a strawman argument (I never suggested
using Windows as the primary learning platform), I'm going to declare
you the winner and move on to something meaningful.

Disagree with what I say, and I'll listen to what you have to say. 
Distort what I say, and you're on your own for the rest of the discussion.
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Re: [opensuse] Why are there not more using Linux?

[Aaron Kulkis]

Jerry Houston wrote:

James Knott wrote:

Why is it that people have to learn Windows or Microsoft Office,
instead of how to use a computer or an office suite?  Do you teach
your kids how to drive a Ford?  Or how to drive a car?  We should be
teaching skills, not products.


I love my kids too much to teach them to drive a Ford.  

Seriously, I don't think it's a valid comparison.  Cars are designed to
be nearly universal, and those differences that exist (headlight,
cruise, heater controls, etc.) can be figured out in minutes.  Operating
systems and the applications that run on them have much steeper learning
curves.


Bull.

My cousin is a mechanical designer.  He says the most frustrating
thing are these ads requiring experience with Catia version X.Y
or SDRC IDEAS version Z or UniGraphics whatever...

It's all the same freaking thing
Draw lines
Mark angles and distances
extrude sections
Pick drawing sub-components and manipulate them

Switching from one to the other is the same as going from
a Plymouth to a Lincolnitty bitty details differ, but
the same basic principles apply.

The only re-learning needed is to find out WHERE the
headlight switch is, and how it operates, not an entire
re-learning of the concept of headlights.

The same goes for software which solves a similar task.

The only problem with using Windows as the primary learning
platform is that the whole MS training point of view is
that of "how to use release X of MS software product Y"
or "how to MS XP works"... instead of teaching general
computing principles.

No university-level CAD teacher worth listening to is
going to speak about how to do things on one specific
vendor's product without also discussing how the same
principle applies on different products (community
college "get your XXX accreditation" courses excluded).

A long time ago, someone wrote the following:

Learn Windows, and you know how to do things until
Microsoft releases the next version;  learn Unix, and
you learn how to use all computers, forever.



I'm not suggesting that kids should't be exposed to Linux.  Or that it
shouldn't be their OS of choice (if it really is their choice).  But
preventing them from learning anything about Windows and Microsoft
applications isn't doing them a favor.


You think they're not going to be exposed to Windows and all
of the associated crap just from attending school, and
visiting other peoples's houses?

Where are you that there's this incredible dearth of Windows
machines... I want to move there!




You and I might prefer an open source world, but that's not the world
most of us live in, and have to earn a living in.


So basically, you're saying that, if you don't serve your
kids Coca-Cola in your own home, how will the poor dearies
ever experience what it tastes like?


Jerry, you worry too much.


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Re: [opensuse] Why are there not more using Linux?

[Aaron Kulkis]

Jerry Houston wrote:

Chris Ross wrote:

You've just proved my point really. It's that from my kids'
point-of-view even if they do buy Linux games, with the penguin on the
box and everything, they may or may not work. Whether it's old ones
like Quake 3 or even new ones like Quake 4. I'm not arguing with you
that they can get Dad to google for the answer, write some magic to
the computer's boot scripts and finally, hopefully, they'll actually
be able to play. That is exactly my point! The alternative is they can
afford a couple of Windows games themselves, take them home and play
them right away. As it is we *don't* have any Windows machines in the
house, I won't let them. the kids don't understand why not though.


That's an interesting observation.  You point out several reasons why a
Windows machine may be more desirable, especially for kids, but you
won't allow a Windows machine in the house.  One can't help but wonder
why -- I'm with the kids on that.

Furthermore, it's not just about games.  Most business runs on Windows
machines, and is likely to for years to come.  Unless you're
independently wealthy -- such that your kids will never need to work in
the real world -- preventing them from learning how Windows works isn't
doing them any favors.


Obviously you're not reading the trade magazines.
Many business DO plan on upgrading from XP, but not
a whole lot plan on upgrading from XP to Vista.

5 years from now, Windows is going to be as rare in
the business place as Linux is now.



I'm an enthusiastic Linux user, and in fact, have been somewhat of an
evangelist about it at times.  However, I earn a six-figure income ($US)
working all day with computers running Windows.  Just because we use and
enjoy one doesn't necessarily mean we should remain ignorant about the
other.


Yes, but working with Windows, frankly, makes a user
stupid if they don't have contact with any other OS.

I've never seen anyone who worked with Unix exclusively
fail to adapt to Windows..because Unix (and Linux runs
on the same principles) teaches computer CONCEPTS, where
as Windows teaches "click button A, then Menu B, Item C..."



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Re: [opensuse] Why are there not more using Linux?

[Aaron Kulkis]

Chris Ross wrote:


Joe Sloan escreveu:

There are more games available for 'bloze, no argument there.


I'm trying to keep it on the topic "Why don't more people use Linux?". 
It's not /just/ that there /more/ games for Windows, enough that my kids 
can find them in the high street and afford them with pocket money.



I fixed Q4 sound after a bit of googling, blue skies. I just don't like
the game that much - ut2004 is more enjoyable IMHO.

As for bargain basement windoze games, I couldn't say. I'd be more
likely to try bargain basement linux games.


You've just proved my point really. It's that from my kids' 
point-of-view even if they do buy Linux games, with the penguin on the 
box and everything, they may or may not work. Whether it's old ones like


It's not like you can't download those games from Sourceforge...
which mean's you can get the most up-top-date version, and
so it will work.


Quake 3 or even new ones like Quake 4. I'm not arguing with you that 
they can get Dad to google for the answer, write some magic to the 
computer's boot scripts and finally, hopefully, they'll actually be able 
to play. That is exactly my point! The alternative is they can afford a 
couple of Windows games themselves, take them home and play them right 
away. As it is we *don't* have any Windows machines in the house, I 
won't let them. the kids don't understand why not though.


That's ok.  It's just like telling them that they can't have
a TV in their room, or whatever..they WON'T understand...
that's why they're not allowed to vote or drive.



I also agree with you about Quake 4. Our current favourite is "World of 
Padman" (http://www.worldofpadman.com/) based on the Quake 3 engine.


Regards,
Chris R.




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Re: [opensuse] Why are there not more using Linux?

[Aaron Kulkis]

Marcin Floryan wrote:

On Sun, 20 Jan 2008 11:06:02 -, Philippe Landau <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:



to get over this, and since then I only pop over to the XP side to play
games. I wonder if I hadn't had such a bad feeling about MS in general and


I have yet another reason, the need to develop Windows software. It is
hard to do serious development in a non-native environment or on a
virtual machine.

Divers in some cases are still an issue but there has been a
tremendous improvement on that to what I remember 10 years ago when I
started with linux systems.


I don't let divers anywhere near my computer.

Water + computer = BAD







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Re: [opensuse] Why are there not more using Linux?

[Aaron Kulkis]

Joe Sloan wrote:

PerfectReign wrote:

On Sun, January 20, 2008 3:16 pm, Joe Sloan wrote:

PerfectReign wrote:


I actually see the end of Linux games here...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DirectX#DirectX_10

hmm, OK, so mickeysoft is changing one of their APIs yet again... and
that relates to linux games how?

I'm just suggesting that more of the balance falls to the DirectX
crowd than ever before.

Unless OpenGL has something competitive to this, I can't see
developers choosing to port games to openSUSE or other distros.


LOL, nobody has ever ported a game to opensuse, no need.


Loki ported many Windows games to Linux..not just opensuse
but one CD that worked on every distro.

I have RailRoad Tycoon II, Platinum edition, as
a native Linux installation.

I even bought it right off the shelf at an honest to
goodness brick-and-mortar store.

> Like I said, my quake 3 arena demo binary from 1999
> has played just fine on every distro I've tried.


What happens is top developers like John Carmack write

> OpenGL, and the result is automatically rather standards
> friendly. DX is a problem, but all problems have their
> solutions. I'm not throwing in the towel and I don't
> think anybody else here should either.

The games will come AFTER businesses start putting
Linux on the desktop.

A lot of people want the same OS at home as what
they use at work.

Once significant numbers of people are using Linux
on the desktop at work, the home software market
will inflate very rapidly.


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Re: [opensuse] Why are there not more using Linux?

[Aaron Kulkis]

Joe Sloan wrote:

David wrote:


I only pop over
to the XP side to play games. 


It always strikes me as odd when I hear people say how 'bloze is so
great for games. There is one thing in ms favor, and that is the
availability of game titles, due to their large, long term market share.

But that's not to say that there are no games for linux. Over the years
I've played games on linux (I kind of like the networked 3D FPS variety)
 starting with good old doom in the mid 90s, to doom 2, then quake,
quake 2, quake 3, Return to Castle Wolfenstein, ut2000, ut2004, Enemy
Territory, and more, all 100% native linux games.



The problem is that right now, there is a dearth of
Linux titles for modern games.   A couple FPS have
been ported, but ever since Loki went out of business,
the opportunity to run things like RailRoad Tycoon,
unfortunately depends on a Windows installation :-(.


There are of course a lot of games that are available

> for ms and not for linux, but you know what? I already
> spend way too much time gaming, but if I were really
> determined to play one of those games, I could run it

under wine, or failing that, buy a console.


Unfortunately, DirectX is a moving target ...

And I think a lot of this is purely for lock-in effect,
and not much more.



At any rate, I don't feel the need, nor the faintest

> desire, to resort to wintendo for games, or anything
> else.


Joe




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Re: [opensuse] Why are there not more using Linux

[Aaron Kulkis]

Philippe Landau wrote:

Dave Barton wrote:

From: Philippe Landau <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

You are tenacious, Dave, great :-)
Some may say tenacious, others would say that I am too stupid to know 
when to give up. ;)
You wanted to but were kind enough to honour the efforts of list members 
:-)



Still no joy with Lilo ?
Did give LiLo a shot, but the situation is even worse. On boot I get 
half a screen full of 01s and then total lockup, requiring a hardware 
reset. Thanks for trying to help, but I am sad to say Microsoft has 
won this box.

Did anyone ever attempt to make a systematic survey
of reasons why Linux remains such a small player ?
Of course corruption on a massive scale is involved
in selling Windows to governments and corporations.
But why is the percentage of surfers using Linux so small ?
Is it mainly because of the games or are the shortcomings
of Linux an important factor and which ones most ?


It's declining.

Every battle-field systems I've seen in the US military
is NOT a Windows systems.  Solaris and Linux can be found
on the battlefield, but no Windows.

And recently, it was decided that all fileservers for
offices should be migrated from Windows to OS X to
reduce the Army's vulnerability to virus attacks.

When soldiers lives are on the line, the decision
makers get nervous when the massive problems with
Windows are raised... the US military is one place
where you CAN get reamed for buying Microsoft.


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Re: [opensuse] Why are there not more using Linux?

[Sunny]

On Jan 21, 2008 12:25 PM, Jerry Houston <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Sunny wrote:
> > Exposing the kids to different environments is very important in terms
> > of making them adapt easier to a changed situation. Exactly like the
> > languages - kids learn easier and faster a second (and third language)
> > than adults. And when they have the mindset to think in different
> > languages, it's easier for them to learn yet another one. And another
> > one ...
> >
>
> Exactly.  And exposing them to only _one_ environment doesn't encourage
> them to learn those skills.
>

That's the point, at home, they need to be exposed to something better
than a public school (at least in US they are still Windows and
Mac-centric) can teach them :)

-- 
Svetoslav Milenov (Sunny)

Even the most advanced equipment in the hands of the ignorant is just
a pile of scrap.
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Re: [opensuse] Why are there not more using Linux?

[Joe Sloan]

Jerry Houston wrote:
> James Knott wrote:
>> Why is it that people have to learn Windows or Microsoft Office,
>> instead of how to use a computer or an office suite?  Do you teach
>> your kids how to drive a Ford?  Or how to drive a car?  We should be
>> teaching skills, not products.
> 
> I love my kids too much to teach them to drive a Ford.  
> 
> Seriously, I don't think it's a valid comparison.  Cars are designed to
> be nearly universal, and those differences that exist (headlight,
> cruise, heater controls, etc.) can be figured out in minutes.  Operating
> systems and the applications that run on them have much steeper learning
> curves.
> 
> I'm not suggesting that kids should't be exposed to Linux.  Or that it
> shouldn't be their OS of choice (if it really is their choice).  But
> preventing them from learning anything about Windows and Microsoft
> applications isn't doing them a favor.
> 
> You and I might prefer an open source world, but that's not the world
> most of us live in, and have to earn a living in.

I think this fear of not being sufficiently deeply steeped in mickeysoft
trivia is a bit overblown. I'm with James on this one. Look at college
degrees as an example. Let's say there are 2 degree programs you are
considering, either for yourself or a child. Both schools grant a
Bachelor's in computer science, but the approach is completely
different. I will describe 2 actual schools, while protecting their names.

At school A, the computer science department is run by the school of
business. No hard science is required, and no math is required beyond
"business math". The core curriculum teaches the use of products: ms
word, ms excel, ms powerpoint, ms visual studio, ms iis. The students
are taught in visual basic, with optional courses is visual c dot net.

At school B, the computer science department is run by the school of
mathematics and engineering. The CS degree requires calculus I II III,
differential equations, linear algebra, discrete math, finite automata,
probability and statistics, and 3 semesters of calculus based physics.
The core CS curriculum covers assembly language programing, computer
architecture, top down software design, algorithms and data structures,
operating systems, and is taught for the most part in java, with
mandatory coverage of c, c++, c#, lisp, prolog, fortran, and perl, with
programming assignments due in each language, and a semester long
programming project as part of a small team. Senior level courses
include database design, www design and management, computer networks
and other electives, of which 12 units must be taken.

Which degree carries more weight? The one that teaches products, or the
one that teaches the principles which will allow the student to learn
and use any product?

In the same vein, which is better? To teach someone about word
processing, or to teach them ms word?


Joe

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Re: [opensuse] Why are there not more using Linux?

[Joe Sloan]

PerfectReign wrote:
> On Mon, January 21, 2008 5:09 am, Jerry Houston wrote:
> 
>> I'm an enthusiastic Linux user, and in fact, have been somewhat of an
>> evangelist about it at times.  However, I earn a six-figure income
>> ($US)
>> working all day with computers running Windows.  Just because we use
>> and
>> enjoy one doesn't necessarily mean we should remain ignorant about the
>> other.
> 
> Six figures? That's all?  I earn a seven-figure income (if you include
> the decimals).  :P
> 
> By the way - on the corporate note. I just put my first openSUSE
> server box into production. It is a small app server running apache
> for a LAMP based software inventory program, but it is a start.

Don't despise small beginnings. I pushed linux into our company as a
backup MX/DNS server, and a big brother server running on discarded
windoze hardware. It was despised by my management at the time, who
tried to kill it, but it impressed enough of the right people to gain a
toe-hold.

Now we have all our infrastructure services running on linux, on
first-hand HP hardware, with full support, and are about to do a pilot
project to see about moving Oracle off of HP-UX and onto Linux.

Joe
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Re: [opensuse] Why are there not more using Linux?

[James Knott]

Jerry Houston wrote:

James Knott wrote:

Why is it that people have to learn Windows or Microsoft Office,
instead of how to use a computer or an office suite?  Do you teach
your kids how to drive a Ford?  Or how to drive a car?  We should be
teaching skills, not products.


I love my kids too much to teach them to drive a Ford.  


But you let them run Windows.


Seriously, I don't think it's a valid comparison.  Cars are designed to
be nearly universal, and those differences that exist (headlight,
cruise, heater controls, etc.) can be figured out in minutes.  Operating
systems and the applications that run on them have much steeper learning
curves.

I'm not suggesting that kids should't be exposed to Linux.  Or that it
shouldn't be their OS of choice (if it really is their choice).  But
preventing them from learning anything about Windows and Microsoft
applications isn't doing them a favor.


Again, teach them the skill.  It doesn't take a genius to find out how 
to do something in a new app, that they've already been doing.  On the 
other hand, teaching people that the Microsoft way is the only way is 
doing them a great disservice.


You and I might prefer an open source world, but that's not the world
most of us live in, and have to earn a living in.


Well, I've used Linux, Windows, OS/2, DOS, VAX/VMS etc., over the years. 
 I've also used Openoffice, Microsoft Office, Lotus Smart Suite, 
Describe, Wordstar 2000, Word Perfect and PC-Write (I even had a half 
day class on SuperCalc!).  It's a matter of "This is what I want to do, 
how do I do it with this software?"  Because I learn how to use tools, 
not what button to click, I don't have a problem moving to different 
software.


Bottom line.  If you learn the skills, you'll have little problem in 
moving to other software.  If you learn only how to use an app, you find 
it difficult to move to others.  This happens in many areas, not just 
computers.


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Re: [opensuse] Why are there not more using Linux?

[Jerry Houston]

Sunny wrote:
> Exposing the kids to different environments is very important in terms
> of making them adapt easier to a changed situation. Exactly like the
> languages - kids learn easier and faster a second (and third language)
> than adults. And when they have the mindset to think in different
> languages, it's easier for them to learn yet another one. And another
> one ...
>   

Exactly.  And exposing them to only _one_ environment doesn't encourage
them to learn those skills.

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Re: [opensuse] Why are there not more using Linux?

[Joe Sloan]

PerfectReign wrote:
> On Mon, January 21, 2008 3:28 am, Chris Ross wrote:
> 
>> Even the new Linux Quake 4 demo doesn't run on OpenSuSE 10.2 because
>> the
>> sound is all broken and horrible, let alone old bargain basement
>> Windows
>> games.
> 
> I had teh same problem on 10.2 and 10.3 - no valid sounds coming from
> it. I even tried many of the settings out there.

I found the right setting to get Q4 sound working - but I haven't played
Q4 in awhile so I don't remember the fix, but it shouldn't be too hard
to find. It may be handled by the same tweak that enables sound for Q3A.

Joe
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Re: [opensuse] Why are there not more using Linux?

[Joe Sloan]

Chris Ross wrote:

> You've just proved my point really. It's that from my kids'
> point-of-view even if they do buy Linux games, with the penguin on the
> box and everything, they may or may not work. Whether it's old ones like
> Quake 3 or even new ones like Quake 4. I'm not arguing with you that
> they can get Dad to google for the answer, write some magic to the
> computer's boot scripts and finally, hopefully, they'll actually be able
> to play. That is exactly my point! The alternative is they can afford a
> couple of Windows games themselves, take them home and play them right
> away. As it is we *don't* have any Windows machines in the house, I
> won't let them. the kids don't understand why not though.


Agreed, it can be daunting for a private citizen with limited time and
resources to try and get popular games properly set up on a linux box.
IMHO the more games included with the distro the better, since such
games tend to just work, the linux vendor having done all the work.

But it is doable - I know of die-hard linux gamers who tweak their
systems and run bleeding edge versions of wine or pay for commercial
wine support to run popular windoze games. Personally I'd rather vote
with my wallet to support companies who make native linux game, but to
each his own.

> I also agree with you about Quake 4. Our current favourite is "World of
> Padman" (http://www.worldofpadman.com/) based on the Quake 3 engine.

Interesting, hadn't heard of that one.

BTW a good site for linux gaming support is linux-gamers.net

Joe
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Re: [opensuse] Why are there not more using Linux?

[Sunny]

On Jan 21, 2008 11:01 AM, Jerry Houston <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> James Knott wrote:
> > Why is it that people have to learn Windows or Microsoft Office,
> > instead of how to use a computer or an office suite?  Do you teach
> > your kids how to drive a Ford?  Or how to drive a car?  We should be
> > teaching skills, not products.
>
> I love my kids too much to teach them to drive a Ford.  
>
> Seriously, I don't think it's a valid comparison.  Cars are designed to
> be nearly universal, and those differences that exist (headlight,
> cruise, heater controls, etc.) can be figured out in minutes.  Operating
> systems and the applications that run on them have much steeper learning
> curves.
>
> I'm not suggesting that kids should't be exposed to Linux.  Or that it
> shouldn't be their OS of choice (if it really is their choice).  But
> preventing them from learning anything about Windows and Microsoft
> applications isn't doing them a favor.
>
> You and I might prefer an open source world, but that's not the world
> most of us live in, and have to earn a living in.

Till they need to "earn a living" there are going to be another OSes,
and another applications, and most probably even the way you interact
with computers will change.

Exposing the kids to different environments is very important in terms
of making them adapt easier to a changed situation. Exactly like the
languages - kids learn easier and faster a second (and third language)
than adults. And when they have the mindset to think in different
languages, it's easier for them to learn yet another one. And another
one ...

My daughter uses Edubuntu on her computer (Gnome), she is using my
Suse machine with ease (KDE), at school they use Macs, and she has no
problems using her buddies' Windows machines when she is visiting
(even that no one have specifically educated her about this one).

It's not the OS/application - it's the process that have to be learned
as James said.


-- 
Svetoslav Milenov (Sunny)

Even the most advanced equipment in the hands of the ignorant is just
a pile of scrap.
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Re: [opensuse] Why are there not more using Linux?

[Jerry Houston]

James Knott wrote:
> Why is it that people have to learn Windows or Microsoft Office,
> instead of how to use a computer or an office suite?  Do you teach
> your kids how to drive a Ford?  Or how to drive a car?  We should be
> teaching skills, not products.

I love my kids too much to teach them to drive a Ford.  

Seriously, I don't think it's a valid comparison.  Cars are designed to
be nearly universal, and those differences that exist (headlight,
cruise, heater controls, etc.) can be figured out in minutes.  Operating
systems and the applications that run on them have much steeper learning
curves.

I'm not suggesting that kids should't be exposed to Linux.  Or that it
shouldn't be their OS of choice (if it really is their choice).  But
preventing them from learning anything about Windows and Microsoft
applications isn't doing them a favor.

You and I might prefer an open source world, but that's not the world
most of us live in, and have to earn a living in.
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Re: [opensuse] Why are there not more using Linux?

[James Knott]

Jerry Houston wrote:



Furthermore, it's not just about games.  Most business runs on Windows
machines, and is likely to for years to come.  Unless you're
independently wealthy -- such that your kids will never need to work in
the real world -- preventing them from learning how Windows works isn't
doing them any favors.


Why is it that people have to learn Windows or Microsoft Office, instead 
of how to use a computer or an office suite?  Do you teach your kids how 
to drive a Ford?  Or how to drive a car?  We should be teaching skills, 
not products.



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Re: [opensuse] Why are there not more using Linux?

[Jerry Houston]

PerfectReign wrote:
> By the way - on the corporate note. I just put my first openSUSE
> server box into production. It is a small app server running apache
> for a LAMP based software inventory program, but it is a start.
>   

Congratulations!  Options are good.

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Re: [opensuse] Why are there not more using Linux?

[PerfectReign]

On Mon, January 21, 2008 5:09 am, Jerry Houston wrote:

> I'm an enthusiastic Linux user, and in fact, have been somewhat of an
> evangelist about it at times.  However, I earn a six-figure income
> ($US)
> working all day with computers running Windows.  Just because we use
> and
> enjoy one doesn't necessarily mean we should remain ignorant about the
> other.

Six figures? That's all?  I earn a seven-figure income (if you include
the decimals).  :P

By the way - on the corporate note. I just put my first openSUSE
server box into production. It is a small app server running apache
for a LAMP based software inventory program, but it is a start.

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Re: [opensuse] Why are there not more using Linux?

[PerfectReign]

On Mon, January 21, 2008 3:52 am, Joe Sloan wrote:

> I fixed Q4 sound after a bit of googling, blue skies. I just don't
> like
> the game that much - ut2004 is more enjoyable IMHO.
>
You mean, Unreal tournament?  I've never heard of that. Will check it.
I see they have a demo version...



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Re: [opensuse] Why are there not more using Linux?

[PerfectReign]

On Sun, January 20, 2008 10:26 pm, Joe Sloan wrote:
> PerfectReign wrote:
>
>> Heh - I know. I've got the young generation learning the ways of
>> TuxRacer, X-Moto and L-Breakout.
>>
>> http://www.perfectreign.com/?q=node/51
>
>
> That's cool, expose them while they are young! I turned my kids on to
> linux when they were young - My oldest son, an anthropology professor,
> runs suse linux on all his computers and is mickeysoft free. My
> youngest
> son does LAMP development/admin for a living. My 2 daughters both grew
> up to be OSX users, but still know their way around linux.
>

Heh - good thing!

I'll be sure and keep my kids on the right track so they don't "stray"
far. :P


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Re: [opensuse] Why are there not more using Linux?

[PerfectReign]

On Mon, January 21, 2008 3:28 am, Chris Ross wrote:

> Even the new Linux Quake 4 demo doesn't run on OpenSuSE 10.2 because
> the
> sound is all broken and horrible, let alone old bargain basement
> Windows
> games.

I had teh same problem on 10.2 and 10.3 - no valid sounds coming from
it. I even tried many of the settings out there.




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Re: [opensuse] Why are there not more using Linux?

[Jerry Houston]

Chris Ross wrote:
> You've just proved my point really. It's that from my kids'
> point-of-view even if they do buy Linux games, with the penguin on the
> box and everything, they may or may not work. Whether it's old ones
> like Quake 3 or even new ones like Quake 4. I'm not arguing with you
> that they can get Dad to google for the answer, write some magic to
> the computer's boot scripts and finally, hopefully, they'll actually
> be able to play. That is exactly my point! The alternative is they can
> afford a couple of Windows games themselves, take them home and play
> them right away. As it is we *don't* have any Windows machines in the
> house, I won't let them. the kids don't understand why not though.

That's an interesting observation.  You point out several reasons why a
Windows machine may be more desirable, especially for kids, but you
won't allow a Windows machine in the house.  One can't help but wonder
why -- I'm with the kids on that.

Furthermore, it's not just about games.  Most business runs on Windows
machines, and is likely to for years to come.  Unless you're
independently wealthy -- such that your kids will never need to work in
the real world -- preventing them from learning how Windows works isn't
doing them any favors.

I'm an enthusiastic Linux user, and in fact, have been somewhat of an
evangelist about it at times.  However, I earn a six-figure income ($US)
working all day with computers running Windows.  Just because we use and
enjoy one doesn't necessarily mean we should remain ignorant about the
other.

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