Re: [OT] Fines Victoria crisis deepens

[mike smith]

Success stories don't seem to make it into MSM.  pity, because you'd think
there's more successful outcomes than failures

On Wed, Oct 23, 2019, 12:24 Greg Keogh  wrote:

> Interesting front page article in The Age newspaper today
> 
> about a Victorian government IT disaster. IT disasters are routine (I'm
> sure we've all caused a few!) but it's interesting that they actually name
> the software as VIEW from a company called Civica. The article is a bit
> vague about what's actually wrong, it just says "[it] doesn't work", "the
> system was absolute chaos" and systems are not "talking to" their
> computers. Does anyone have inside gossip about what really happened?
>
> There was another vast IT disaster a few years ago related to the
> education system I think, where dodgy contracts were being awarded to
> mates, and I think the loss ran into the hundreds of millions. That story
> vanished from the news and I never found out what happened.
>
> *Greg K*
>

Re: [OT] Fines Victoria crisis deepens

[Tony Wright]

I'd say the Dept of ed case is still going, which is why no media coverage.

On Wed, 23 Oct 2019, 12:24 pm Greg Keogh,  wrote:

> Interesting front page article in The Age newspaper today
> 
> about a Victorian government IT disaster. IT disasters are routine (I'm
> sure we've all caused a few!) but it's interesting that they actually name
> the software as VIEW from a company called Civica. The article is a bit
> vague about what's actually wrong, it just says "[it] doesn't work", "the
> system was absolute chaos" and systems are not "talking to" their
> computers. Does anyone have inside gossip about what really happened?
>
> There was another vast IT disaster a few years ago related to the
> education system I think, where dodgy contracts were being awarded to
> mates, and I think the loss ran into the hundreds of millions. That story
> vanished from the news and I never found out what happened.
>
> *Greg K*
>

Re: [OT] Fines Victoria crisis deepens

[DotNet Dude]

I actually know someone who worked on the system at Civica. The system was
an old legacy system from the UK which they butchered to fit the very vague
requirements from the Fines Vic.

The system is now overly complex and full of bugs. Several components like
the payment arrangement functionality requires manual intervention every
night to correct data.

Usual problems like mismanagement and outsourcing to India most of the dev
work also.

This won’t end well.

On Wed, 23 Oct 2019 at 12:24, Greg Keogh  wrote:

> Interesting front page article in The Age newspaper today
> 
> about a Victorian government IT disaster. IT disasters are routine (I'm
> sure we've all caused a few!) but it's interesting that they actually name
> the software as VIEW from a company called Civica. The article is a bit
> vague about what's actually wrong, it just says "[it] doesn't work", "the
> system was absolute chaos" and systems are not "talking to" their
> computers. Does anyone have inside gossip about what really happened?
>
> There was another vast IT disaster a few years ago related to the
> education system I think, where dodgy contracts were being awarded to
> mates, and I think the loss ran into the hundreds of millions. That story
> vanished from the news and I never found out what happened.
>
> *Greg K*
>

Re: [OT] Fines Victoria crisis deepens

[mike smith]

Manual intervention by local staff until they outsource that to India as
well.  And the data center

On Wed, Oct 23, 2019, 14:20 DotNet Dude  wrote:

> I actually know someone who worked on the system at Civica. The system was
> an old legacy system from the UK which they butchered to fit the very vague
> requirements from the Fines Vic.
>
> The system is now overly complex and full of bugs. Several components like
> the payment arrangement functionality requires manual intervention every
> night to correct data.
>
> Usual problems like mismanagement and outsourcing to India most of the dev
> work also.
>
> This won’t end well.
>
> On Wed, 23 Oct 2019 at 12:24, Greg Keogh  wrote:
>
>> Interesting front page article in The Age newspaper today
>> 
>> about a Victorian government IT disaster. IT disasters are routine (I'm
>> sure we've all caused a few!) but it's interesting that they actually name
>> the software as VIEW from a company called Civica. The article is a bit
>> vague about what's actually wrong, it just says "[it] doesn't work", "the
>> system was absolute chaos" and systems are not "talking to" their
>> computers. Does anyone have inside gossip about what really happened?
>>
>> There was another vast IT disaster a few years ago related to the
>> education system I think, where dodgy contracts were being awarded to
>> mates, and I think the loss ran into the hundreds of millions. That story
>> vanished from the news and I never found out what happened.
>>
>> *Greg K*
>>
>

RE: [OT] Fines Victoria crisis deepens

[greg]

Not sure about that. I endlessly hear that the success ratio for large IT 
projects is around 30%, not up around 70 or 80%.

 

It’s quite appalling really.

 

Regards,

 

Greg

 

Dr Greg Low

 

1300SQLSQL (1300 775 775) office | +61 419201410 mobile│ +61 3 8676 4913 fax

SQL Down Under | Web:  
<https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.sqldownunder.com%2F&data=02%7C01%7Csspahelp%40microsoft.com%7C1f0ea4d6b97e4d897f3708d666d1e890%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C636809449091516274&sdata=SLHeEGAMmWUY5YIwcC4oAPYr%2F9RIZdi4MNASsdzwX2I%3D&reserved=0>
 www.sqldownunder.com | 
<https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fgreglow.me%2F&data=02%7C01%7Csspahelp%40microsoft.com%7C1f0ea4d6b97e4d897f3708d666d1e890%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C636809449091526278&sdata=IU8tnAITCjBxWafi3A9XpO9lF3PIwZJ8ad3t36lnxvs%3D&reserved=0>
 http://greglow.me

 

From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com  On Behalf 
Of mike smith
Sent: Wednesday, 23 October 2019 12:45 PM
To: ozDotNet 
Subject: Re: [OT] Fines Victoria crisis deepens

 

Success stories don't seem to make it into MSM.  pity, because you'd think 
there's more successful outcomes than failures

 

On Wed, Oct 23, 2019, 12:24 Greg Keogh mailto:gfke...@gmail.com> > wrote:

Interesting front page article in The Age newspaper today 
<https://www.theage.com.au/politics/victoria/fines-victoria-system-collapses-leaving-massive-hole-in-state-budget-20191022-p5333d.html>
  about a Victorian government IT disaster. IT disasters are routine (I'm sure 
we've all caused a few!) but it's interesting that they actually name the 
software as VIEW from a company called Civica. The article is a bit vague about 
what's actually wrong, it just says "[it] doesn't work", "the system was 
absolute chaos" and systems are not "talking to" their computers. Does anyone 
have inside gossip about what really happened?

 

There was another vast IT disaster a few years ago related to the education 
system I think, where dodgy contracts were being awarded to mates, and I think 
the loss ran into the hundreds of millions. That story vanished from the news 
and I never found out what happened.

 

Greg K

Re: [OT] Fines Victoria crisis deepens

[Greg Keogh]

Ah interesting! Do you know what languages and platforms were involved?

*GK*


I actually know someone who worked on the system at Civica. The system was
> an old legacy system from the UK which they butchered to fit the very vague
> requirements from the Fines Vic.
>
>

Re: [OT] Fines Victoria crisis deepens

[DotNet Dude]

Old .net framework c# upgraded from the original system written around 2004
with heavy use of poorly written sql server sprocs. All hosted locally in
IIS. Crystal reports.

Apparently the main issues are with several batch processing windows
services. All c# and all poorly written. God classes with all code in a
single class type thing. The usual.

Sad when it cost over a hundred million.

On Wed, 23 Oct 2019 at 14:39, Greg Keogh  wrote:

> Ah interesting! Do you know what languages and platforms were involved?
>
> *GK*
>
>
> I actually know someone who worked on the system at Civica. The system was
>> an old legacy system from the UK which they butchered to fit the very vague
>> requirements from the Fines Vic.
>>
>>

Re: [OT] Fines Victoria crisis deepens

[Grant Maw]

It's not just Victoria. The QLD government IT projects 9ver recent years
have also been rolled gold catastrophes

On Wed, 23 Oct. 2019, 11:24 am Greg Keogh,  wrote:

> Interesting front page article in The Age newspaper today
> 
> about a Victorian government IT disaster. IT disasters are routine (I'm
> sure we've all caused a few!) but it's interesting that they actually name
> the software as VIEW from a company called Civica. The article is a bit
> vague about what's actually wrong, it just says "[it] doesn't work", "the
> system was absolute chaos" and systems are not "talking to" their
> computers. Does anyone have inside gossip about what really happened?
>
> There was another vast IT disaster a few years ago related to the
> education system I think, where dodgy contracts were being awarded to
> mates, and I think the loss ran into the hundreds of millions. That story
> vanished from the news and I never found out what happened.
>
> *Greg K*
>

Re: [OT] Fines Victoria crisis deepens

[David Connors]

Myki in Vic should get a notable mention... ticketing system for trams  and
trains that was the same price as building sending a couple of Opportunity
Rovers to Mars.

David Connors
da...@connors.com | M +61 417 189 363
Telegram: https://t.me/davidconnors
LinkedIn: http://au.linkedin.com/in/davidjohnconnors



On Wed, 23 Oct 2019 at 19:50, Grant Maw  wrote:

> It's not just Victoria. The QLD government IT projects 9ver recent years
> have also been rolled gold catastrophes
>
> On Wed, 23 Oct. 2019, 11:24 am Greg Keogh,  wrote:
>
>> Interesting front page article in The Age newspaper today
>> 
>> about a Victorian government IT disaster. IT disasters are routine (I'm
>> sure we've all caused a few!) but it's interesting that they actually name
>> the software as VIEW from a company called Civica. The article is a bit
>> vague about what's actually wrong, it just says "[it] doesn't work", "the
>> system was absolute chaos" and systems are not "talking to" their
>> computers. Does anyone have inside gossip about what really happened?
>>
>> There was another vast IT disaster a few years ago related to the
>> education system I think, where dodgy contracts were being awarded to
>> mates, and I think the loss ran into the hundreds of millions. That story
>> vanished from the news and I never found out what happened.
>>
>> *Greg K*
>>
>

Re: [OT] Fines Victoria crisis deepens

[DotNet Dude]

Myki is another product bought from overseas I heard. From one of the
Scandinavian countries I think. Managed by NTTData from memory, could be
wrong, don’t quote me.

On Thu, 24 Oct 2019 at 10:42, David Connors  wrote:

> Myki in Vic should get a notable mention... ticketing system for trams
> and trains that was the same price as building sending a couple of
> Opportunity Rovers to Mars.
>
> David Connors
> da...@connors.com | M +61 417 189 363
> Telegram: https://t.me/davidconnors
> LinkedIn: http://au.linkedin.com/in/davidjohnconnors
>
>
>
> On Wed, 23 Oct 2019 at 19:50, Grant Maw  wrote:
>
>> It's not just Victoria. The QLD government IT projects 9ver recent years
>> have also been rolled gold catastrophes
>>
>> On Wed, 23 Oct. 2019, 11:24 am Greg Keogh,  wrote:
>>
>>> Interesting front page article in The Age newspaper today
>>> 
>>> about a Victorian government IT disaster. IT disasters are routine (I'm
>>> sure we've all caused a few!) but it's interesting that they actually name
>>> the software as VIEW from a company called Civica. The article is a bit
>>> vague about what's actually wrong, it just says "[it] doesn't work", "the
>>> system was absolute chaos" and systems are not "talking to" their
>>> computers. Does anyone have inside gossip about what really happened?
>>>
>>> There was another vast IT disaster a few years ago related to the
>>> education system I think, where dodgy contracts were being awarded to
>>> mates, and I think the loss ran into the hundreds of millions. That story
>>> vanished from the news and I never found out what happened.
>>>
>>> *Greg K*
>>>
>>

Re: [OT] Fines Victoria crisis deepens

[David Connors]

Dunno how you spend 1.5 bln on an 'off the shelf' solution.

Speaking of IT stuff ups, they just installed NBN in our building in Spring
Hill (CBD Brisbane) last week.

The fibre comes into the building probably 5-6 metres max from the pit.
They pulled the fibre into the MDF which is at the front of the building.
Then they ran the fibre all the way to the back of the building to put the
DSLAM in a store room that is the maximum possible distance from where all
of the copper in the building terminates. Then they ran a bunch of pairs of
copper from the back store room to the front of the building to the MDF so
you can jumper FTTB off that and into the MDF frame. The tray they used to
run the copper from the back of the building to the front has MASSIVE three
phase cables in it that power 6 A/C units. The copper runs exactly parallel
to this for almost entire length of its run. Should be nice for drop outs
when the various compressors kick in / turn off.

There were two guys here for three days doing the job. The FTTB DSLAM is
about the size of a fridge. There are only 8 tenancies in the building.

Everyone in the building already has fibre except for us as we use
microwave that's faster than anything NBN sell anyway - so they should get
zero subscribers.

Your tax dollars hard at work.

David Connors
da...@connors.com | M +61 417 189 363
Telegram: https://t.me/davidconnors
LinkedIn: http://au.linkedin.com/in/davidjohnconnors



On Thu, 24 Oct 2019 at 09:53, DotNet Dude  wrote:

> Myki is another product bought from overseas I heard. From one of the
> Scandinavian countries I think. Managed by NTTData from memory, could be
> wrong, don’t quote me.
>
> On Thu, 24 Oct 2019 at 10:42, David Connors  wrote:
>
>> Myki in Vic should get a notable mention... ticketing system for trams
>> and trains that was the same price as building sending a couple of
>> Opportunity Rovers to Mars.
>>
>> David Connors
>> da...@connors.com | M +61 417 189 363
>> Telegram: https://t.me/davidconnors
>> LinkedIn: http://au.linkedin.com/in/davidjohnconnors
>>
>>
>>
>> On Wed, 23 Oct 2019 at 19:50, Grant Maw  wrote:
>>
>>> It's not just Victoria. The QLD government IT projects 9ver recent years
>>> have also been rolled gold catastrophes
>>>
>>> On Wed, 23 Oct. 2019, 11:24 am Greg Keogh,  wrote:
>>>
 Interesting front page article in The Age newspaper today
 
 about a Victorian government IT disaster. IT disasters are routine (I'm
 sure we've all caused a few!) but it's interesting that they actually name
 the software as VIEW from a company called Civica. The article is a bit
 vague about what's actually wrong, it just says "[it] doesn't work", "the
 system was absolute chaos" and systems are not "talking to" their
 computers. Does anyone have inside gossip about what really happened?

 There was another vast IT disaster a few years ago related to the
 education system I think, where dodgy contracts were being awarded to
 mates, and I think the loss ran into the hundreds of millions. That story
 vanished from the news and I never found out what happened.

 *Greg K*

>>>

Re: [OT] Fines Victoria crisis deepens

[Greg Low]

Yep MyKi chewed up $2.6B locally, and yep we note that NASA put Curiosity on 
Mars for $2B, but worth also noting was that within that budget, NASA invented 
and deployed the Sky Crane.

Regards,

Greg

Dr Greg Low
SQL Down Under Pty Ltd
Mobile: +61419201410 Office: 1300775775


From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com on behalf of David Connors 

Sent: Thursday, October 24, 2019 11:02 am
To: ozDotNet
Subject: Re: [OT] Fines Victoria crisis deepens

Dunno how you spend 1.5 bln on an 'off the shelf' solution.

Speaking of IT stuff ups, they just installed NBN in our building in Spring 
Hill (CBD Brisbane) last week.

The fibre comes into the building probably 5-6 metres max from the pit. They 
pulled the fibre into the MDF which is at the front of the building. Then they 
ran the fibre all the way to the back of the building to put the DSLAM in a 
store room that is the maximum possible distance from where all of the copper 
in the building terminates. Then they ran a bunch of pairs of copper from the 
back store room to the front of the building to the MDF so you can jumper FTTB 
off that and into the MDF frame. The tray they used to run the copper from the 
back of the building to the front has MASSIVE three phase cables in it that 
power 6 A/C units. The copper runs exactly parallel to this for almost entire 
length of its run. Should be nice for drop outs when the various compressors 
kick in / turn off.

There were two guys here for three days doing the job. The FTTB DSLAM is about 
the size of a fridge. There are only 8 tenancies in the building.

Everyone in the building already has fibre except for us as we use microwave 
that's faster than anything NBN sell anyway - so they should get zero 
subscribers.

Your tax dollars hard at work.

David Connors
da...@connors.com<mailto:da...@connors.com> | M +61 417 189 363
Telegram: https://t.me/davidconnors
LinkedIn: http://au.linkedin.com/in/davidjohnconnors



On Thu, 24 Oct 2019 at 09:53, DotNet Dude 
mailto:adotnetd...@gmail.com>> wrote:
Myki is another product bought from overseas I heard. From one of the 
Scandinavian countries I think. Managed by NTTData from memory, could be wrong, 
don’t quote me.

On Thu, 24 Oct 2019 at 10:42, David Connors 
mailto:da...@connors.com>> wrote:
Myki in Vic should get a notable mention... ticketing system for trams  and 
trains that was the same price as building sending a couple of Opportunity 
Rovers to Mars.


David Connors
da...@connors.com<mailto:da...@connors.com> | M +61 417 189 363
Telegram: https://t.me/davidconnors
LinkedIn: http://au.linkedin.com/in/davidjohnconnors



On Wed, 23 Oct 2019 at 19:50, Grant Maw 
mailto:grant@gmail.com>> wrote:
It's not just Victoria. The QLD government IT projects 9ver recent years have 
also been rolled gold catastrophes

On Wed, 23 Oct. 2019, 11:24 am Greg Keogh, 
mailto:gfke...@gmail.com>> wrote:
Interesting front page article in The Age newspaper 
today<https://www.theage.com.au/politics/victoria/fines-victoria-system-collapses-leaving-massive-hole-in-state-budget-20191022-p5333d.html>
 about a Victorian government IT disaster. IT disasters are routine (I'm sure 
we've all caused a few!) but it's interesting that they actually name the 
software as VIEW from a company called Civica. The article is a bit vague about 
what's actually wrong, it just says "[it] doesn't work", "the system was 
absolute chaos" and systems are not "talking to" their computers. Does anyone 
have inside gossip about what really happened?

There was another vast IT disaster a few years ago related to the education 
system I think, where dodgy contracts were being awarded to mates, and I think 
the loss ran into the hundreds of millions. That story vanished from the news 
and I never found out what happened.

Greg K

Re: [OT] Fines Victoria crisis deepens

[Greg Low]

ViC basically built their own. NSW also built their own, then trashed it and 
bought Opal. QLD also built their own (GoCard). It's all stunning waste in 
unnecessary redesign.

These were already well known technologies.

Friend of mine was driving buses in Brisbane. He said when they first deployed 
GoCard, they couldn't get things like sensitivities right. He'd drive past a 
bus stop and it would charge everyone standing there.

We did not need to learn all this again.

Regards,

Greg

Dr Greg Low
SQL Down Under Pty Ltd
Mobile: +61419201410 Office: 1300775775


From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com on behalf of DotNet Dude 

Sent: Thursday, October 24, 2019 10:53 am
To: ozDotNet
Subject: Re: [OT] Fines Victoria crisis deepens

Myki is another product bought from overseas I heard. From one of the 
Scandinavian countries I think. Managed by NTTData from memory, could be wrong, 
don’t quote me.

On Thu, 24 Oct 2019 at 10:42, David Connors 
mailto:da...@connors.com>> wrote:
Myki in Vic should get a notable mention... ticketing system for trams  and 
trains that was the same price as building sending a couple of Opportunity 
Rovers to Mars.


David Connors
da...@connors.com<mailto:da...@connors.com> | M +61 417 189 363
Telegram: https://t.me/davidconnors
LinkedIn: http://au.linkedin.com/in/davidjohnconnors



On Wed, 23 Oct 2019 at 19:50, Grant Maw 
mailto:grant@gmail.com>> wrote:
It's not just Victoria. The QLD government IT projects 9ver recent years have 
also been rolled gold catastrophes

On Wed, 23 Oct. 2019, 11:24 am Greg Keogh, 
mailto:gfke...@gmail.com>> wrote:
Interesting front page article in The Age newspaper 
today<https://www.theage.com.au/politics/victoria/fines-victoria-system-collapses-leaving-massive-hole-in-state-budget-20191022-p5333d.html>
 about a Victorian government IT disaster. IT disasters are routine (I'm sure 
we've all caused a few!) but it's interesting that they actually name the 
software as VIEW from a company called Civica. The article is a bit vague about 
what's actually wrong, it just says "[it] doesn't work", "the system was 
absolute chaos" and systems are not "talking to" their computers. Does anyone 
have inside gossip about what really happened?

There was another vast IT disaster a few years ago related to the education 
system I think, where dodgy contracts were being awarded to mates, and I think 
the loss ran into the hundreds of millions. That story vanished from the news 
and I never found out what happened.

Greg K

RE: [OT] Fines Victoria crisis deepens

[David Apelt]

Umm…  I have been reading these posts with interest… I am in the industry.



I can’t speak for the other states, but Qld Go Card is based on Cubic’s
technology which is rolled out throughout the world. Cubic is responsible
for the first version of the Go Card too.



https://www.cubic.com/news-events/news/cubic-selected-provide-queenslands-new-ticketing-system



I have been tracking the progress of the project and in Qld, it appears to
be going really well.  I am looking forward to being able to travel
effectively anyway in Queensland just using my smart watch.  You will also
be able to tap on with your credit card and even your “old” Go Card too.



Regards



David Apelt *|* *Product evangelist, Emerging technology and Innovation*

M: 0417 602 301* |* Email: david.ap...@transmax.com.au



*From:* ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com  *On
Behalf Of *Greg Low
*Sent:* Thursday, 24 October 2019 11:49 AM
*To:* ozDotNet 
*Subject:* Re: [OT] Fines Victoria crisis deepens



ViC basically built their own. NSW also built their own, then trashed it
and bought Opal. QLD also built their own (GoCard). It's all stunning waste
in unnecessary redesign.



These were already well known technologies.



Friend of mine was driving buses in Brisbane. He said when they first
deployed GoCard, they couldn't get things like sensitivities right. He'd
drive past a bus stop and it would charge everyone standing there.



We did not need to learn all this again.



Regards,



Greg



Dr Greg Low

SQL Down Under Pty Ltd

Mobile: +61419201410 Office: 1300775775


--

*From:* ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com on behalf of DotNet Dude <
adotnetd...@gmail.com>
*Sent:* Thursday, October 24, 2019 10:53 am
*To:* ozDotNet
*Subject:* Re: [OT] Fines Victoria crisis deepens



Myki is another product bought from overseas I heard. From one of the
Scandinavian countries I think. Managed by NTTData from memory, could be
wrong, don’t quote me.



On Thu, 24 Oct 2019 at 10:42, David Connors  wrote:

Myki in Vic should get a notable mention... ticketing system for trams  and
trains that was the same price as building sending a couple of Opportunity
Rovers to Mars.



David Connors
da...@connors.com | M +61 417 189 363
Telegram: https://t.me/davidconnors
LinkedIn: http://au.linkedin.com/in/davidjohnconnors





On Wed, 23 Oct 2019 at 19:50, Grant Maw  wrote:

It's not just Victoria. The QLD government IT projects 9ver recent years
have also been rolled gold catastrophes



On Wed, 23 Oct. 2019, 11:24 am Greg Keogh,  wrote:

Interesting front page article in The Age newspaper today
<https://www.theage.com.au/politics/victoria/fines-victoria-system-collapses-leaving-massive-hole-in-state-budget-20191022-p5333d.html>
about a Victorian government IT disaster. IT disasters are routine (I'm
sure we've all caused a few!) but it's interesting that they actually name
the software as VIEW from a company called Civica. The article is a bit
vague about what's actually wrong, it just says "[it] doesn't work", "the
system was absolute chaos" and systems are not "talking to" their
computers. Does anyone have inside gossip about what really happened?



There was another vast IT disaster a few years ago related to the education
system I think, where dodgy contracts were being awarded to mates, and I
think the loss ran into the hundreds of millions. That story vanished from
the news and I never found out what happened.



*Greg K*

-- 


Level 5, 143 Coronation Drive, Milton QLD 4064 | PO Box 1464, Milton QLD 
4064

www.transmax.com.au <http://www.transmax.com.au>

This
 e-mail and 
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purpose is prohibited.

Re: [OT] Fines Victoria crisis deepens

[Tony Wright]

All these projects are simply ways to shift public money into private
hands, usually the mates of whoever is in government. Waste is the last
thing on their minds.

On Thu, 24 Oct 2019, 12:49 pm Greg Low,  wrote:

> ViC basically built their own. NSW also built their own, then trashed it
> and bought Opal. QLD also built their own (GoCard). It's all stunning waste
> in unnecessary redesign.
>
> These were already well known technologies.
>
> Friend of mine was driving buses in Brisbane. He said when they first
> deployed GoCard, they couldn't get things like sensitivities right. He'd
> drive past a bus stop and it would charge everyone standing there.
>
> We did not need to learn all this again.
>
> Regards,
>
> Greg
>
> Dr Greg Low
> SQL Down Under Pty Ltd
> Mobile: +61419201410 Office: 1300775775
>
> --
> *From:* ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com on behalf of DotNet Dude <
> adotnetd...@gmail.com>
> *Sent:* Thursday, October 24, 2019 10:53 am
> *To:* ozDotNet
> *Subject:* Re: [OT] Fines Victoria crisis deepens
>
> Myki is another product bought from overseas I heard. From one of the
> Scandinavian countries I think. Managed by NTTData from memory, could be
> wrong, don’t quote me.
>
> On Thu, 24 Oct 2019 at 10:42, David Connors  wrote:
>
>> Myki in Vic should get a notable mention... ticketing system for trams
>> and trains that was the same price as building sending a couple of
>> Opportunity Rovers to Mars.
>>
>> David Connors
>> da...@connors.com | M +61 417 189 363
>> Telegram: https://t.me/davidconnors
>> LinkedIn: http://au.linkedin.com/in/davidjohnconnors
>>
>>
>>
>> On Wed, 23 Oct 2019 at 19:50, Grant Maw  wrote:
>>
>>> It's not just Victoria. The QLD government IT projects 9ver recent years
>>> have also been rolled gold catastrophes
>>>
>>> On Wed, 23 Oct. 2019, 11:24 am Greg Keogh,  wrote:
>>>
>>>> Interesting front page article in The Age newspaper today
>>>> <https://www.theage.com.au/politics/victoria/fines-victoria-system-collapses-leaving-massive-hole-in-state-budget-20191022-p5333d.html>
>>>> about a Victorian government IT disaster. IT disasters are routine (I'm
>>>> sure we've all caused a few!) but it's interesting that they actually name
>>>> the software as VIEW from a company called Civica. The article is a bit
>>>> vague about what's actually wrong, it just says "[it] doesn't work", "the
>>>> system was absolute chaos" and systems are not "talking to" their
>>>> computers. Does anyone have inside gossip about what really happened?
>>>>
>>>> There was another vast IT disaster a few years ago related to the
>>>> education system I think, where dodgy contracts were being awarded to
>>>> mates, and I think the loss ran into the hundreds of millions. That story
>>>> vanished from the news and I never found out what happened.
>>>>
>>>> *Greg K*
>>>>
>>>

Re: [OT] Fines Victoria crisis deepens

[Greg Keogh]

> All these projects are simply ways to shift public money into private
> hands, usually the mates of whoever is in government. Waste is the last
> thing on their minds.
>

Don't poor plebs like us get some "trickle down" ;-)

*GK*

>

Re: [OT] Fines Victoria crisis deepens

[David Connors]

On Thu, 24 Oct 2019 at 11:49, Greg Low  wrote:

> Friend of mine was driving buses in Brisbane. He said when they first
> deployed GoCard, they couldn't get things like sensitivities right. He'd
> drive past a bus stop and it would charge everyone standing there.
>
> We did not need to learn all this again.
>

I have my gocard set up to recharge itself every 50 bucks. I got on the bus
and it was negative balance. The driver said I needed dollars to travel. I
told him I'd just set it up to auto top up online. He said that takes 24-48
hours and if I wanted to travel I needed to get off the bus, go to 7eleven,
and charge it there.

What a fail.

Re: [OT] Fines Victoria crisis deepens

[Tom Rutter]

That is a feature mate

On Thu, 24 Oct 2019 at 13:48, David Connors  wrote:

> On Thu, 24 Oct 2019 at 11:49, Greg Low  wrote:
>
>> Friend of mine was driving buses in Brisbane. He said when they first
>> deployed GoCard, they couldn't get things like sensitivities right. He'd
>> drive past a bus stop and it would charge everyone standing there.
>>
>> We did not need to learn all this again.
>>
>
> I have my gocard set up to recharge itself every 50 bucks. I got on the
> bus and it was negative balance. The driver said I needed dollars to
> travel. I told him I'd just set it up to auto top up online. He said that
> takes 24-48 hours and if I wanted to travel I needed to get off the bus, go
> to 7eleven, and charge it there.
>
> What a fail.
>
>

Re: [OT] Fines Victoria crisis deepens

[Stephen Price]

I heard there was a feature request to make Mars rover interface with Uber 
eats...

Interesting project crossovers...

Cheers
Stephen

From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com  on behalf 
of Greg Low 
Sent: Thursday, October 24, 2019 9:43:32 AM
To: ozDotNet 
Subject: Re: [OT] Fines Victoria crisis deepens

Yep MyKi chewed up $2.6B locally, and yep we note that NASA put Curiosity on 
Mars for $2B, but worth also noting was that within that budget, NASA invented 
and deployed the Sky Crane.

Regards,

Greg

Dr Greg Low
SQL Down Under Pty Ltd
Mobile: +61419201410 Office: 1300775775


From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com on behalf of David Connors 

Sent: Thursday, October 24, 2019 11:02 am
To: ozDotNet
Subject: Re: [OT] Fines Victoria crisis deepens

Dunno how you spend 1.5 bln on an 'off the shelf' solution.

Speaking of IT stuff ups, they just installed NBN in our building in Spring 
Hill (CBD Brisbane) last week.

The fibre comes into the building probably 5-6 metres max from the pit. They 
pulled the fibre into the MDF which is at the front of the building. Then they 
ran the fibre all the way to the back of the building to put the DSLAM in a 
store room that is the maximum possible distance from where all of the copper 
in the building terminates. Then they ran a bunch of pairs of copper from the 
back store room to the front of the building to the MDF so you can jumper FTTB 
off that and into the MDF frame. The tray they used to run the copper from the 
back of the building to the front has MASSIVE three phase cables in it that 
power 6 A/C units. The copper runs exactly parallel to this for almost entire 
length of its run. Should be nice for drop outs when the various compressors 
kick in / turn off.

There were two guys here for three days doing the job. The FTTB DSLAM is about 
the size of a fridge. There are only 8 tenancies in the building.

Everyone in the building already has fibre except for us as we use microwave 
that's faster than anything NBN sell anyway - so they should get zero 
subscribers.

Your tax dollars hard at work.

David Connors
da...@connors.com<mailto:da...@connors.com> | M +61 417 189 363
Telegram: https://t.me/davidconnors
LinkedIn: http://au.linkedin.com/in/davidjohnconnors



On Thu, 24 Oct 2019 at 09:53, DotNet Dude 
mailto:adotnetd...@gmail.com>> wrote:
Myki is another product bought from overseas I heard. From one of the 
Scandinavian countries I think. Managed by NTTData from memory, could be wrong, 
don’t quote me.

On Thu, 24 Oct 2019 at 10:42, David Connors 
mailto:da...@connors.com>> wrote:
Myki in Vic should get a notable mention... ticketing system for trams  and 
trains that was the same price as building sending a couple of Opportunity 
Rovers to Mars.


David Connors
da...@connors.com<mailto:da...@connors.com> | M +61 417 189 363
Telegram: https://t.me/davidconnors
LinkedIn: http://au.linkedin.com/in/davidjohnconnors



On Wed, 23 Oct 2019 at 19:50, Grant Maw 
mailto:grant@gmail.com>> wrote:
It's not just Victoria. The QLD government IT projects 9ver recent years have 
also been rolled gold catastrophes

On Wed, 23 Oct. 2019, 11:24 am Greg Keogh, 
mailto:gfke...@gmail.com>> wrote:
Interesting front page article in The Age newspaper 
today<https://www.theage.com.au/politics/victoria/fines-victoria-system-collapses-leaving-massive-hole-in-state-budget-20191022-p5333d.html>
 about a Victorian government IT disaster. IT disasters are routine (I'm sure 
we've all caused a few!) but it's interesting that they actually name the 
software as VIEW from a company called Civica. The article is a bit vague about 
what's actually wrong, it just says "[it] doesn't work", "the system was 
absolute chaos" and systems are not "talking to" their computers. Does anyone 
have inside gossip about what really happened?

There was another vast IT disaster a few years ago related to the education 
system I think, where dodgy contracts were being awarded to mates, and I think 
the loss ran into the hundreds of millions. That story vanished from the news 
and I never found out what happened.

Greg K

RE: [OT] Fines Victoria crisis deepens

[Ken Schaefer]

Depends on how your measure success.

By the typical bottom-line, most projects aren’t “successes”. However, lots of 
organisations have:

  1.  Arbitrary limits on how much contingency can be included – which then 
doesn’t reflect the true level of uncertainty in the project
  2.  Requirements change
  3.  Vendors, systems integrators etc. go bust, change direction or 
what-have-you
  4.  Your project competes with everyone else’s for scarce capital, so 
everyone has an incentive to downplay cost, and upsell benefits
  5.  Technological cost estimates can be done relatively accurately, but 
large-scale projects include significant organisational change which is much 
harder to estimate/cost up-front.

By my guess, about 15-20% of large IT projects ($50-100m+) are successful. 
Maybe 20-30% are real failures. Everything else is in a bit of a grey area 
where they are failures based on initial cost/time/features criteria, but might 
have been successful if business cases were allowed to be more realistic.

Regards,
Ken

From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com  On Behalf 
Of g...@greglow.com
Sent: Wednesday, 23 October 2019 2:25 PM
To: 'ozDotNet' 
Subject: RE: [OT] Fines Victoria crisis deepens

Not sure about that. I endlessly hear that the success ratio for large IT 
projects is around 30%, not up around 70 or 80%.

It’s quite appalling really.

Regards,

Greg

Dr Greg Low

1300SQLSQL (1300 775 775) office | +61 419201410 mobile│ +61 3 8676 4913 fax
SQL Down Under | Web: 
www.sqldownunder.com<https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.sqldownunder.com%2F&data=02%7C01%7Csspahelp%40microsoft.com%7C1f0ea4d6b97e4d897f3708d666d1e890%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C636809449091516274&sdata=SLHeEGAMmWUY5YIwcC4oAPYr%2F9RIZdi4MNASsdzwX2I%3D&reserved=0>
 
|http://greglow.me<https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fgreglow.me%2F&data=02%7C01%7Csspahelp%40microsoft.com%7C1f0ea4d6b97e4d897f3708d666d1e890%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C636809449091526278&sdata=IU8tnAITCjBxWafi3A9XpO9lF3PIwZJ8ad3t36lnxvs%3D&reserved=0>

From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com<mailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com> 
mailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com>> On Behalf 
Of mike smith
Sent: Wednesday, 23 October 2019 12:45 PM
To: ozDotNet mailto:ozdotnet@ozdotnet.com>>
Subject: Re: [OT] Fines Victoria crisis deepens

Success stories don't seem to make it into MSM.  pity, because you'd think 
there's more successful outcomes than failures

On Wed, Oct 23, 2019, 12:24 Greg Keogh 
mailto:gfke...@gmail.com>> wrote:
Interesting front page article in The Age newspaper 
today<https://www.theage.com.au/politics/victoria/fines-victoria-system-collapses-leaving-massive-hole-in-state-budget-20191022-p5333d.html>
 about a Victorian government IT disaster. IT disasters are routine (I'm sure 
we've all caused a few!) but it's interesting that they actually name the 
software as VIEW from a company called Civica. The article is a bit vague about 
what's actually wrong, it just says "[it] doesn't work", "the system was 
absolute chaos" and systems are not "talking to" their computers. Does anyone 
have inside gossip about what really happened?

There was another vast IT disaster a few years ago related to the education 
system I think, where dodgy contracts were being awarded to mates, and I think 
the loss ran into the hundreds of millions. That story vanished from the news 
and I never found out what happened.

Greg K

RE: [OT] Fines Victoria crisis deepens

[greg]

I think one of the biggest issues is that so many project managers still think 
you can plan IT projects like you plan building a bridge. The difference with a 
bridge is that you can specify what’s needed, and it’s unlikely to change 
before you finish building the bridge.

 

Unfortunately though, that’s also how the people funding it look at it. They 
want to know what it will cost before they start. 

 

Somehow, we have to get project planning to match reality. At present, when 
there are variations from the plan, that’s seen as a problem, and seen as 
unexpected. But the reality is that it’s totally expected. The problem was the 
idea that bridge-style planning is appropriate.

 

Regards,

 

Greg

 

Dr Greg Low

 

1300SQLSQL (1300 775 775) office | +61 419201410 mobile│ +61 3 8676 4913 fax

SQL Down Under | Web:  
<https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.sqldownunder.com%2F&data=02%7C01%7Csspahelp%40microsoft.com%7C1f0ea4d6b97e4d897f3708d666d1e890%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C636809449091516274&sdata=SLHeEGAMmWUY5YIwcC4oAPYr%2F9RIZdi4MNASsdzwX2I%3D&reserved=0>
 www.sqldownunder.com | 
<https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fgreglow.me%2F&data=02%7C01%7Csspahelp%40microsoft.com%7C1f0ea4d6b97e4d897f3708d666d1e890%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C636809449091526278&sdata=IU8tnAITCjBxWafi3A9XpO9lF3PIwZJ8ad3t36lnxvs%3D&reserved=0>
 http://greglow.me

 

From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com  On Behalf 
Of Ken Schaefer
Sent: Sunday, 27 October 2019 9:38 PM
To: ozDotNet 
Subject: RE: [OT] Fines Victoria crisis deepens

 

Depends on how your measure success.

 

By the typical bottom-line, most projects aren’t “successes”. However, lots of 
organisations have:

a.  Arbitrary limits on how much contingency can be included – which then 
doesn’t reflect the true level of uncertainty in the project
b.  Requirements change
c.  Vendors, systems integrators etc. go bust, change direction or 
what-have-you
d.  Your project competes with everyone else’s for scarce capital, so 
everyone has an incentive to downplay cost, and upsell benefits
e.  Technological cost estimates can be done relatively accurately, but 
large-scale projects include significant organisational change which is much 
harder to estimate/cost up-front.

 

By my guess, about 15-20% of large IT projects ($50-100m+) are successful. 
Maybe 20-30% are real failures. Everything else is in a bit of a grey area 
where they are failures based on initial cost/time/features criteria, but might 
have been successful if business cases were allowed to be more realistic.

 

Regards,

Ken

 

From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com <mailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com>  
mailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com> > On 
Behalf Of g...@greglow.com <mailto:g...@greglow.com> 
Sent: Wednesday, 23 October 2019 2:25 PM
To: 'ozDotNet' mailto:ozdotnet@ozdotnet.com> >
Subject: RE: [OT] Fines Victoria crisis deepens

 

Not sure about that. I endlessly hear that the success ratio for large IT 
projects is around 30%, not up around 70 or 80%.

 

It’s quite appalling really.

 

Regards,

 

Greg

 

Dr Greg Low

 

1300SQLSQL (1300 775 775) office | +61 419201410 mobile│ +61 3 8676 4913 fax

SQL Down Under | Web:  
<https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.sqldownunder.com%2F&data=02%7C01%7Csspahelp%40microsoft.com%7C1f0ea4d6b97e4d897f3708d666d1e890%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C636809449091516274&sdata=SLHeEGAMmWUY5YIwcC4oAPYr%2F9RIZdi4MNASsdzwX2I%3D&reserved=0>
 www.sqldownunder.com | 
<https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fgreglow.me%2F&data=02%7C01%7Csspahelp%40microsoft.com%7C1f0ea4d6b97e4d897f3708d666d1e890%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C636809449091526278&sdata=IU8tnAITCjBxWafi3A9XpO9lF3PIwZJ8ad3t36lnxvs%3D&reserved=0>
 http://greglow.me

 

From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com <mailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com>  
mailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com> > On 
Behalf Of mike smith
Sent: Wednesday, 23 October 2019 12:45 PM
To: ozDotNet mailto:ozdotnet@ozdotnet.com> >
Subject: Re: [OT] Fines Victoria crisis deepens

 

Success stories don't seem to make it into MSM.  pity, because you'd think 
there's more successful outcomes than failures

 

On Wed, Oct 23, 2019, 12:24 Greg Keogh mailto:gfke...@gmail.com> > wrote:

Interesting front page article in The Age newspaper today 
<https://www.theage.com.au/politics/victoria/fines-victoria-system-collapses-leaving-massive-hole-in-state-budget-20191022-p5333d.html>
  about a Victorian government IT disaster. IT disasters are routine (I'm sure 
we've all caused a few!) but it's interesting that they actually name the 
software as VIEW from a company called Civica. The article is a bi

Re: [OT] Fines Victoria crisis deepens

[DotNet Dude]

Agreed. Also some clients, especially government, such as Fines Victoria in
this example, still want to follow a waterfall approach and insist on it. I
know the Fines Vic people would not allow frequent releases and so the
releases would build up into monsters that would be deployed every 6-9
months. This approach never goes well and in this case certainly did not.

On Mon, 28 Oct 2019 at 09:20,  wrote:

> I think one of the biggest issues is that so many project managers still
> think you can plan IT projects like you plan building a bridge. The
> difference with a bridge is that you can specify what’s needed, and it’s
> unlikely to change before you finish building the bridge.
>
>
>
> Unfortunately though, that’s also how the people funding it look at it.
> They want to know what it will cost before they start.
>
>
>
> Somehow, we have to get project planning to match reality. At present,
> when there are variations from the plan, that’s seen as a problem, and seen
> as unexpected. But the reality is that it’s totally expected. The problem
> was the idea that bridge-style planning is appropriate.
>
>
>
> Regards,
>
>
>
> Greg
>
>
>
> Dr Greg Low
>
>
>
> 1300SQLSQL (1300 775 775) office | +61 419201410 mobile│ +61 3 8676 4913
> fax
>
> SQL Down Under | Web: www.sqldownunder.com
> <https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.sqldownunder.com%2F&data=02%7C01%7Csspahelp%40microsoft.com%7C1f0ea4d6b97e4d897f3708d666d1e890%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C636809449091516274&sdata=SLHeEGAMmWUY5YIwcC4oAPYr%2F9RIZdi4MNASsdzwX2I%3D&reserved=0>
>  |http://greglow.me
> <https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fgreglow.me%2F&data=02%7C01%7Csspahelp%40microsoft.com%7C1f0ea4d6b97e4d897f3708d666d1e890%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C636809449091526278&sdata=IU8tnAITCjBxWafi3A9XpO9lF3PIwZJ8ad3t36lnxvs%3D&reserved=0>
>
>
>
> *From:* ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com  *On
> Behalf Of *Ken Schaefer
> *Sent:* Sunday, 27 October 2019 9:38 PM
> *To:* ozDotNet 
> *Subject:* RE: [OT] Fines Victoria crisis deepens
>
>
>
> Depends on how your measure success.
>
>
>
> By the typical bottom-line, most projects aren’t “successes”. However,
> lots of organisations have:
>
>1. Arbitrary limits on how much contingency can be included – which
>then doesn’t reflect the true level of uncertainty in the project
>2. Requirements change
>3. Vendors, systems integrators etc. go bust, change direction or
>what-have-you
>4. Your project competes with everyone else’s for scarce capital, so
>everyone has an incentive to downplay cost, and upsell benefits
>5. Technological cost estimates can be done relatively accurately, but
>large-scale projects include significant organisational change which is
>much harder to estimate/cost up-front.
>
>
>
> By my guess, about 15-20% of large IT projects ($50-100m+) are successful.
> Maybe 20-30% are real failures. Everything else is in a bit of a grey area
> where they are failures based on initial cost/time/features criteria, but
> might have been successful if business cases were allowed to be more
> realistic.
>
>
>
> Regards,
>
> Ken
>
>
>
> *From:* ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com  *On
> Behalf Of *g...@greglow.com
> *Sent:* Wednesday, 23 October 2019 2:25 PM
> *To:* 'ozDotNet' 
> *Subject:* RE: [OT] Fines Victoria crisis deepens
>
>
>
> Not sure about that. I endlessly hear that the success ratio for large IT
> projects is around 30%, not up around 70 or 80%.
>
>
>
> It’s quite appalling really.
>
>
>
> Regards,
>
>
>
> Greg
>
>
>
> Dr Greg Low
>
>
>
> 1300SQLSQL (1300 775 775) office | +61 419201410 mobile│ +61 3 8676 4913
> fax
>
> SQL Down Under | Web: www.sqldownunder.com
> <https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.sqldownunder.com%2F&data=02%7C01%7Csspahelp%40microsoft.com%7C1f0ea4d6b97e4d897f3708d666d1e890%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C636809449091516274&sdata=SLHeEGAMmWUY5YIwcC4oAPYr%2F9RIZdi4MNASsdzwX2I%3D&reserved=0>
>  |http://greglow.me
> <https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fgreglow.me%2F&data=02%7C01%7Csspahelp%40microsoft.com%7C1f0ea4d6b97e4d897f3708d666d1e890%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C636809449091526278&sdata=IU8tnAITCjBxWafi3A9XpO9lF3PIwZJ8ad3t36lnxvs%3D&reserved=0>
>
>
>
> *From:* ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com  *On
> Behalf Of *mike smith
> *Sent:* Wednesday, 23 October 2019 12:45 PM
> *To:* ozDotNet 
> *Subject:* Re: [OT] Fines Victoria

Re: [OT] Fines Victoria crisis deepens

[mike smith]

Even alleged followers of Agile don't always do frequent releases



On Mon, Oct 28, 2019, 09:43 DotNet Dude  wrote:

> Agreed. Also some clients, especially government, such as Fines Victoria
> in this example, still want to follow a waterfall approach and insist on
> it. I know the Fines Vic people would not allow frequent releases and so
> the releases would build up into monsters that would be deployed every 6-9
> months. This approach never goes well and in this case certainly did not.
>
> On Mon, 28 Oct 2019 at 09:20,  wrote:
>
>> I think one of the biggest issues is that so many project managers still
>> think you can plan IT projects like you plan building a bridge. The
>> difference with a bridge is that you can specify what’s needed, and it’s
>> unlikely to change before you finish building the bridge.
>>
>>
>>
>> Unfortunately though, that’s also how the people funding it look at it.
>> They want to know what it will cost before they start.
>>
>>
>>
>> Somehow, we have to get project planning to match reality. At present,
>> when there are variations from the plan, that’s seen as a problem, and seen
>> as unexpected. But the reality is that it’s totally expected. The problem
>> was the idea that bridge-style planning is appropriate.
>>
>>
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>>
>>
>> Greg
>>
>>
>>
>> Dr Greg Low
>>
>>
>>
>> 1300SQLSQL (1300 775 775) office | +61 419201410 mobile│ +61 3 8676 4913
>> fax
>>
>> SQL Down Under | Web: www.sqldownunder.com
>> <https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.sqldownunder.com%2F&data=02%7C01%7Csspahelp%40microsoft.com%7C1f0ea4d6b97e4d897f3708d666d1e890%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C636809449091516274&sdata=SLHeEGAMmWUY5YIwcC4oAPYr%2F9RIZdi4MNASsdzwX2I%3D&reserved=0>
>>  |http://greglow.me
>> <https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fgreglow.me%2F&data=02%7C01%7Csspahelp%40microsoft.com%7C1f0ea4d6b97e4d897f3708d666d1e890%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C636809449091526278&sdata=IU8tnAITCjBxWafi3A9XpO9lF3PIwZJ8ad3t36lnxvs%3D&reserved=0>
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com  *On
>> Behalf Of *Ken Schaefer
>> *Sent:* Sunday, 27 October 2019 9:38 PM
>> *To:* ozDotNet 
>> *Subject:* RE: [OT] Fines Victoria crisis deepens
>>
>>
>>
>> Depends on how your measure success.
>>
>>
>>
>> By the typical bottom-line, most projects aren’t “successes”. However,
>> lots of organisations have:
>>
>>1. Arbitrary limits on how much contingency can be included – which
>>then doesn’t reflect the true level of uncertainty in the project
>>2. Requirements change
>>3. Vendors, systems integrators etc. go bust, change direction or
>>what-have-you
>>4. Your project competes with everyone else’s for scarce capital, so
>>everyone has an incentive to downplay cost, and upsell benefits
>>5. Technological cost estimates can be done relatively accurately,
>>but large-scale projects include significant organisational change which 
>> is
>>much harder to estimate/cost up-front.
>>
>>
>>
>> By my guess, about 15-20% of large IT projects ($50-100m+) are
>> successful. Maybe 20-30% are real failures. Everything else is in a bit of
>> a grey area where they are failures based on initial cost/time/features
>> criteria, but might have been successful if business cases were allowed to
>> be more realistic.
>>
>>
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Ken
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com  *On
>> Behalf Of *g...@greglow.com
>> *Sent:* Wednesday, 23 October 2019 2:25 PM
>> *To:* 'ozDotNet' 
>> *Subject:* RE: [OT] Fines Victoria crisis deepens
>>
>>
>>
>> Not sure about that. I endlessly hear that the success ratio for large IT
>> projects is around 30%, not up around 70 or 80%.
>>
>>
>>
>> It’s quite appalling really.
>>
>>
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>>
>>
>> Greg
>>
>>
>>
>> Dr Greg Low
>>
>>
>>
>> 1300SQLSQL (1300 775 775) office | +61 419201410 mobile│ +61 3 8676 4913
>> fax
>>
>> SQL Down Under | Web: www.sqldownunder.com
>> <https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.sqldownunder.com%2F&data=02%7C01%7Csspahelp%40microsoft.com%7C1f0ea4d6b97e4d897f3708d666d1e890%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C

Re: [OT] Fines Victoria crisis deepens

[DotNet Dude]

Yep but every 6-9 mths when the system is full of critical bugs is a joke

On Mon, 28 Oct 2019 at 09:49, mike smith  wrote:

> Even alleged followers of Agile don't always do frequent releases
>
>
>
> On Mon, Oct 28, 2019, 09:43 DotNet Dude  wrote:
>
>> Agreed. Also some clients, especially government, such as Fines Victoria
>> in this example, still want to follow a waterfall approach and insist on
>> it. I know the Fines Vic people would not allow frequent releases and so
>> the releases would build up into monsters that would be deployed every 6-9
>> months. This approach never goes well and in this case certainly did not.
>>
>> On Mon, 28 Oct 2019 at 09:20,  wrote:
>>
>>> I think one of the biggest issues is that so many project managers still
>>> think you can plan IT projects like you plan building a bridge. The
>>> difference with a bridge is that you can specify what’s needed, and it’s
>>> unlikely to change before you finish building the bridge.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Unfortunately though, that’s also how the people funding it look at it.
>>> They want to know what it will cost before they start.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Somehow, we have to get project planning to match reality. At present,
>>> when there are variations from the plan, that’s seen as a problem, and seen
>>> as unexpected. But the reality is that it’s totally expected. The problem
>>> was the idea that bridge-style planning is appropriate.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Greg
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Dr Greg Low
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> 1300SQLSQL (1300 775 775) office | +61 419201410 mobile│ +61 3 8676 4913
>>> fax
>>>
>>> SQL Down Under | Web: www.sqldownunder.com
>>> <https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.sqldownunder.com%2F&data=02%7C01%7Csspahelp%40microsoft.com%7C1f0ea4d6b97e4d897f3708d666d1e890%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C636809449091516274&sdata=SLHeEGAMmWUY5YIwcC4oAPYr%2F9RIZdi4MNASsdzwX2I%3D&reserved=0>
>>>  |http://greglow.me
>>> <https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fgreglow.me%2F&data=02%7C01%7Csspahelp%40microsoft.com%7C1f0ea4d6b97e4d897f3708d666d1e890%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C636809449091526278&sdata=IU8tnAITCjBxWafi3A9XpO9lF3PIwZJ8ad3t36lnxvs%3D&reserved=0>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *From:* ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com  *On
>>> Behalf Of *Ken Schaefer
>>> *Sent:* Sunday, 27 October 2019 9:38 PM
>>> *To:* ozDotNet 
>>> *Subject:* RE: [OT] Fines Victoria crisis deepens
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Depends on how your measure success.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> By the typical bottom-line, most projects aren’t “successes”. However,
>>> lots of organisations have:
>>>
>>>1. Arbitrary limits on how much contingency can be included – which
>>>then doesn’t reflect the true level of uncertainty in the project
>>>2. Requirements change
>>>3. Vendors, systems integrators etc. go bust, change direction or
>>>what-have-you
>>>4. Your project competes with everyone else’s for scarce capital, so
>>>everyone has an incentive to downplay cost, and upsell benefits
>>>5. Technological cost estimates can be done relatively accurately,
>>>    but large-scale projects include significant organisational change which 
>>> is
>>>much harder to estimate/cost up-front.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> By my guess, about 15-20% of large IT projects ($50-100m+) are
>>> successful. Maybe 20-30% are real failures. Everything else is in a bit of
>>> a grey area where they are failures based on initial cost/time/features
>>> criteria, but might have been successful if business cases were allowed to
>>> be more realistic.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>>
>>> Ken
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *From:* ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com  *On
>>> Behalf Of *g...@greglow.com
>>> *Sent:* Wednesday, 23 October 2019 2:25 PM
>>> *To:* 'ozDotNet' 
>>> *Subject:* RE: [OT] Fines Victoria crisis deepens
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Not sure about that. I endlessly hear that the success ratio for large
>>> IT projects is around 30%, not up around 70 or 80%.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>

RE: [OT] Fines Victoria crisis deepens

[Ken Schaefer]

This works for building a bridge, when you have “firm foundations” on which to 
build upon aka what are the immovable requirements and constraints. Many 
infrastructure projects run into the same problems as IT projects - overruns 
due to changing requirements, or a lack of due diligence re requirements.

At the same time, analysis has its own costs – the cost of employing people to 
keep examining details, and the opportunity cost of forgone benefits deferred.

What I see a lot of in these messages is casting blame onto other people (e.g. 
PMs in this case). Most PMs work within broader enterprise constraints (like 
confidence around cost/time/effort, in order to get funding approved). SMEs 
need to play their part in ensuring that the right level of information goes to 
PMs, in the broader context of “getting stuff done”

Regards
Ken

From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com  On Behalf 
Of g...@greglow.com
Sent: Monday, 28 October 2019 9:20 AM
To: 'ozDotNet' 
Subject: RE: [OT] Fines Victoria crisis deepens

I think one of the biggest issues is that so many project managers still think 
you can plan IT projects like you plan building a bridge. The difference with a 
bridge is that you can specify what’s needed, and it’s unlikely to change 
before you finish building the bridge.

Unfortunately though, that’s also how the people funding it look at it. They 
want to know what it will cost before they start.

Somehow, we have to get project planning to match reality. At present, when 
there are variations from the plan, that’s seen as a problem, and seen as 
unexpected. But the reality is that it’s totally expected. The problem was the 
idea that bridge-style planning is appropriate.

Regards,

Greg

Dr Greg Low

1300SQLSQL (1300 775 775) office | +61 419201410 mobile│ +61 3 8676 4913 fax
SQL Down Under | Web: 
www.sqldownunder.com<https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.sqldownunder.com%2F&data=02%7C01%7Csspahelp%40microsoft.com%7C1f0ea4d6b97e4d897f3708d666d1e890%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C636809449091516274&sdata=SLHeEGAMmWUY5YIwcC4oAPYr%2F9RIZdi4MNASsdzwX2I%3D&reserved=0>
 
|http://greglow.me<https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fgreglow.me%2F&data=02%7C01%7Csspahelp%40microsoft.com%7C1f0ea4d6b97e4d897f3708d666d1e890%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C636809449091526278&sdata=IU8tnAITCjBxWafi3A9XpO9lF3PIwZJ8ad3t36lnxvs%3D&reserved=0>

From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com<mailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com> 
mailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com>> On Behalf 
Of Ken Schaefer
Sent: Sunday, 27 October 2019 9:38 PM
To: ozDotNet mailto:ozdotnet@ozdotnet.com>>
Subject: RE: [OT] Fines Victoria crisis deepens

Depends on how your measure success.

By the typical bottom-line, most projects aren’t “successes”. However, lots of 
organisations have:

  1.  Arbitrary limits on how much contingency can be included – which then 
doesn’t reflect the true level of uncertainty in the project
  2.  Requirements change
  3.  Vendors, systems integrators etc. go bust, change direction or 
what-have-you
  4.  Your project competes with everyone else’s for scarce capital, so 
everyone has an incentive to downplay cost, and upsell benefits
  5.  Technological cost estimates can be done relatively accurately, but 
large-scale projects include significant organisational change which is much 
harder to estimate/cost up-front.

By my guess, about 15-20% of large IT projects ($50-100m+) are successful. 
Maybe 20-30% are real failures. Everything else is in a bit of a grey area 
where they are failures based on initial cost/time/features criteria, but might 
have been successful if business cases were allowed to be more realistic.

Regards,
Ken

From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com<mailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com> 
mailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com>> On Behalf 
Of g...@greglow.com<mailto:g...@greglow.com>
Sent: Wednesday, 23 October 2019 2:25 PM
To: 'ozDotNet' mailto:ozdotnet@ozdotnet.com>>
Subject: RE: [OT] Fines Victoria crisis deepens

Not sure about that. I endlessly hear that the success ratio for large IT 
projects is around 30%, not up around 70 or 80%.

It’s quite appalling really.

Regards,

Greg

Dr Greg Low

1300SQLSQL (1300 775 775) office | +61 419201410 mobile│ +61 3 8676 4913 fax
SQL Down Under | Web: 
www.sqldownunder.com<https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.sqldownunder.com%2F&data=02%7C01%7Csspahelp%40microsoft.com%7C1f0ea4d6b97e4d897f3708d666d1e890%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C636809449091516274&sdata=SLHeEGAMmWUY5YIwcC4oAPYr%2F9RIZdi4MNASsdzwX2I%3D&reserved=0>
 
|http://greglow.me<https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fgreglow.me%2F&data=02%7C01%7Csspahelp%40microsoft.com%7C1f0ea4d6b97e4d897f3708d666d1e890%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7c

Re: [OT] Fines Victoria crisis deepens

[mike smith]

Reposted, cos it bounced ;)

Mike

On Tue, Nov 19, 2019, 13:23 mike smith  wrote:

> Another article
>
>
> https://www.itnews.com.au/news/fines-victorias-it-woes-force-21m-write-down-534151
>
> On Wed, Nov 13, 2019, 22:44 Ken Schaefer  wrote:
>
>> This works for building a bridge, when you have “firm foundations” on
>> which to build upon aka what are the immovable requirements and
>> constraints. Many infrastructure projects run into the same problems as IT
>> projects - overruns due to changing requirements, or a lack of due
>> diligence re requirements.
>>
>>
>>
>> At the same time, analysis has its own costs – the cost of employing
>> people to keep examining details, and the opportunity cost of forgone
>> benefits deferred.
>>
>>
>>
>> What I see a lot of in these messages is casting blame onto other people
>> (e.g. PMs in this case). Most PMs work within broader enterprise
>> constraints (like confidence around cost/time/effort, in order to get
>> funding approved). SMEs need to play their part in ensuring that the right
>> level of information goes to PMs, in the broader context of “getting stuff
>> done”
>>
>>
>>
>> Regards
>>
>> Ken
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com  *On
>> Behalf Of *g...@greglow.com
>> *Sent:* Monday, 28 October 2019 9:20 AM
>> *To:* 'ozDotNet' 
>> *Subject:* RE: [OT] Fines Victoria crisis deepens
>>
>>
>>
>> I think one of the biggest issues is that so many project managers still
>> think you can plan IT projects like you plan building a bridge. The
>> difference with a bridge is that you can specify what’s needed, and it’s
>> unlikely to change before you finish building the bridge.
>>
>>
>>
>> Unfortunately though, that’s also how the people funding it look at it.
>> They want to know what it will cost before they start.
>>
>>
>>
>> Somehow, we have to get project planning to match reality. At present,
>> when there are variations from the plan, that’s seen as a problem, and seen
>> as unexpected. But the reality is that it’s totally expected. The problem
>> was the idea that bridge-style planning is appropriate.
>>
>>
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>>
>>
>> Greg
>>
>>
>>
>> Dr Greg Low
>>
>>
>>
>> 1300SQLSQL (1300 775 775) office | +61 419201410 mobile│ +61 3 8676 4913
>> fax
>>
>> SQL Down Under | Web: www.sqldownunder.com
>> <https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.sqldownunder.com%2F&data=02%7C01%7Csspahelp%40microsoft.com%7C1f0ea4d6b97e4d897f3708d666d1e890%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C636809449091516274&sdata=SLHeEGAMmWUY5YIwcC4oAPYr%2F9RIZdi4MNASsdzwX2I%3D&reserved=0>
>>  |http://greglow.me
>> <https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fgreglow.me%2F&data=02%7C01%7Csspahelp%40microsoft.com%7C1f0ea4d6b97e4d897f3708d666d1e890%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C636809449091526278&sdata=IU8tnAITCjBxWafi3A9XpO9lF3PIwZJ8ad3t36lnxvs%3D&reserved=0>
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com  *On
>> Behalf Of *Ken Schaefer
>> *Sent:* Sunday, 27 October 2019 9:38 PM
>> *To:* ozDotNet 
>> *Subject:* RE: [OT] Fines Victoria crisis deepens
>>
>>
>>
>> Depends on how your measure success.
>>
>>
>>
>> By the typical bottom-line, most projects aren’t “successes”. However,
>> lots of organisations have:
>>
>>1. Arbitrary limits on how much contingency can be included – which
>>then doesn’t reflect the true level of uncertainty in the project
>>2. Requirements change
>>3. Vendors, systems integrators etc. go bust, change direction or
>>what-have-you
>>4. Your project competes with everyone else’s for scarce capital, so
>>everyone has an incentive to downplay cost, and upsell benefits
>>5. Technological cost estimates can be done relatively accurately,
>>but large-scale projects include significant organisational change which 
>> is
>>much harder to estimate/cost up-front.
>>
>>
>>
>> By my guess, about 15-20% of large IT projects ($50-100m+) are
>> successful. Maybe 20-30% are real failures. Everything else is in a bit of
>> a grey area where they are failures based on initial cost/time/features
>> criteria, but might have been successful if business cases were allowed to
>> be more realistic.
>>
>

Re: [OT] Fines Victoria crisis deepens

[DotNet Dude]

Very interested to see how this ends up. My sources tell me managers and
testers are jumping off sinking ship.

On Sat, 23 Nov 2019 at 09:44, mike smith  wrote:

> Reposted, cos it bounced ;)
>
> Mike
>
> On Tue, Nov 19, 2019, 13:23 mike smith  wrote:
>
>> Another article
>>
>>
>> https://www.itnews.com.au/news/fines-victorias-it-woes-force-21m-write-down-534151
>>
>
>> On Wed, Nov 13, 2019, 22:44 Ken Schaefer  wrote:
>>
>>> This works for building a bridge, when you have “firm foundations” on
>>> which to build upon aka what are the immovable requirements and
>>> constraints. Many infrastructure projects run into the same problems as IT
>>> projects - overruns due to changing requirements, or a lack of due
>>> diligence re requirements.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> At the same time, analysis has its own costs – the cost of employing
>>> people to keep examining details, and the opportunity cost of forgone
>>> benefits deferred.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> What I see a lot of in these messages is casting blame onto other people
>>> (e.g. PMs in this case). Most PMs work within broader enterprise
>>> constraints (like confidence around cost/time/effort, in order to get
>>> funding approved). SMEs need to play their part in ensuring that the right
>>> level of information goes to PMs, in the broader context of “getting stuff
>>> done”
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Regards
>>>
>>> Ken
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *From:* ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com  *On
>>> Behalf Of *g...@greglow.com
>>> *Sent:* Monday, 28 October 2019 9:20 AM
>>> *To:* 'ozDotNet' 
>>> *Subject:* RE: [OT] Fines Victoria crisis deepens
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I think one of the biggest issues is that so many project managers still
>>> think you can plan IT projects like you plan building a bridge. The
>>> difference with a bridge is that you can specify what’s needed, and it’s
>>> unlikely to change before you finish building the bridge.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Unfortunately though, that’s also how the people funding it look at it.
>>> They want to know what it will cost before they start.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Somehow, we have to get project planning to match reality. At present,
>>> when there are variations from the plan, that’s seen as a problem, and seen
>>> as unexpected. But the reality is that it’s totally expected. The problem
>>> was the idea that bridge-style planning is appropriate.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Greg
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Dr Greg Low
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> 1300SQLSQL (1300 775 775) office | +61 419201410 mobile│ +61 3 8676 4913
>>> fax
>>>
>>> SQL Down Under | Web: www.sqldownunder.com
>>> <https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.sqldownunder.com%2F&data=02%7C01%7Csspahelp%40microsoft.com%7C1f0ea4d6b97e4d897f3708d666d1e890%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C636809449091516274&sdata=SLHeEGAMmWUY5YIwcC4oAPYr%2F9RIZdi4MNASsdzwX2I%3D&reserved=0>
>>>  |http://greglow.me
>>> <https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fgreglow.me%2F&data=02%7C01%7Csspahelp%40microsoft.com%7C1f0ea4d6b97e4d897f3708d666d1e890%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C636809449091526278&sdata=IU8tnAITCjBxWafi3A9XpO9lF3PIwZJ8ad3t36lnxvs%3D&reserved=0>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *From:* ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com  *On
>>> Behalf Of *Ken Schaefer
>>> *Sent:* Sunday, 27 October 2019 9:38 PM
>>> *To:* ozDotNet 
>>> *Subject:* RE: [OT] Fines Victoria crisis deepens
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Depends on how your measure success.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> By the typical bottom-line, most projects aren’t “successes”. However,
>>> lots of organisations have:
>>>
>>>1. Arbitrary limits on how much contingency can be included – which
>>>then doesn’t reflect the true level of uncertainty in the project
>>>2. Requirements change
>>>3. Vendors, systems integrators etc. go bust, change direction or
>>>what-have-you
>>>4. Your project competes with everyone else’s for scarce capital, so
>>>everyone has an incentive to downplay cost, and upsell benefits
>>>5. 

Re: [OT] Fines Victoria crisis deepens

[DotNet Dude]

For those interested in this story, here is some new information regarding
the audit:

https://www.audit.vic.gov.au/report/implementing-a-new-infringements-management-system

I found the following quote from the article particularly interesting:

*"DJCS expected VIEW to deliver 90 per cent of its required functionality
at the go-live date. However, following its launch, it became apparent that
the vendor had delivered substantially less functionality than DJCS
expected, which DJCS later estimated to be 5 per cent on go live."*

Crazy stuff.

On Sat, Nov 23, 2019 at 10:20 AM DotNet Dude  wrote:

> Very interested to see how this ends up. My sources tell me managers and
> testers are jumping off sinking ship.
>
> On Sat, 23 Nov 2019 at 09:44, mike smith  wrote:
>
>> Reposted, cos it bounced ;)
>>
>> Mike
>>
>> On Tue, Nov 19, 2019, 13:23 mike smith  wrote:
>>
>>> Another article
>>>
>>>
>>> https://www.itnews.com.au/news/fines-victorias-it-woes-force-21m-write-down-534151
>>>
>>
>>> On Wed, Nov 13, 2019, 22:44 Ken Schaefer  wrote:
>>>
>>>> This works for building a bridge, when you have “firm foundations” on
>>>> which to build upon aka what are the immovable requirements and
>>>> constraints. Many infrastructure projects run into the same problems as IT
>>>> projects - overruns due to changing requirements, or a lack of due
>>>> diligence re requirements.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> At the same time, analysis has its own costs – the cost of employing
>>>> people to keep examining details, and the opportunity cost of forgone
>>>> benefits deferred.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> What I see a lot of in these messages is casting blame onto other
>>>> people (e.g. PMs in this case). Most PMs work within broader enterprise
>>>> constraints (like confidence around cost/time/effort, in order to get
>>>> funding approved). SMEs need to play their part in ensuring that the right
>>>> level of information goes to PMs, in the broader context of “getting stuff
>>>> done”
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Regards
>>>>
>>>> Ken
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> *From:* ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com  *On
>>>> Behalf Of *g...@greglow.com
>>>> *Sent:* Monday, 28 October 2019 9:20 AM
>>>> *To:* 'ozDotNet' 
>>>> *Subject:* RE: [OT] Fines Victoria crisis deepens
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I think one of the biggest issues is that so many project managers
>>>> still think you can plan IT projects like you plan building a bridge. The
>>>> difference with a bridge is that you can specify what’s needed, and it’s
>>>> unlikely to change before you finish building the bridge.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Unfortunately though, that’s also how the people funding it look at it.
>>>> They want to know what it will cost before they start.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Somehow, we have to get project planning to match reality. At present,
>>>> when there are variations from the plan, that’s seen as a problem, and seen
>>>> as unexpected. But the reality is that it’s totally expected. The problem
>>>> was the idea that bridge-style planning is appropriate.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Regards,
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Greg
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Dr Greg Low
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> 1300SQLSQL (1300 775 775) office | +61 419201410 mobile│ +61 3 8676
>>>> 4913 fax
>>>>
>>>> SQL Down Under | Web: www.sqldownunder.com
>>>> <https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.sqldownunder.com%2F&data=02%7C01%7Csspahelp%40microsoft.com%7C1f0ea4d6b97e4d897f3708d666d1e890%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C636809449091516274&sdata=SLHeEGAMmWUY5YIwcC4oAPYr%2F9RIZdi4MNASsdzwX2I%3D&reserved=0>
>>>>  |http://greglow.me
>>>> <https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fgreglow.me%2F&data=02%7C01%7Csspahelp%40microsoft.com%7C1f0ea4d6b97e4d897f3708d666d1e890%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C636809449091526278&sdata=IU8tnAITCjBxWafi3A9XpO9lF3PIwZJ8ad3t36lnxvs%3D&reserved=0>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>

Re: [OT] Fines Victoria crisis deepens

[Greg Keogh]

>
> For those interested in this story, here is some new information regarding
> the audit:
>
> https://www.audit.vic.gov.au/report/implementing-a-new-infringements-management-system
> I found the following quote from the article particularly interesting:
>
>
> *"DJCS expected VIEW to deliver 90 per cent of its required functionality
> at the go-live date. However, following its launch, it became apparent that
> the vendor had delivered substantially less functionality than DJCS
> expected, which DJCS later estimated to be 5 per cent on go live."*
>

Wow! well found. I only scrolled down the very long page, but it looks like
they bought an off-the-shelf system that needed +70% customisation. They
did not have the IT expertise to know what they were buying or might need
to build. There was no proper manager over the whole thing. Oh! There were
conflicts of interest. Inadequate contract management. Inadequate testing.

As an aside: the article only contains 13 "impacts".

*Greg K*

Re: [OT] Fines Victoria crisis deepens

[mike smith]

Who was the vendor?  Seems to be omitted from all the articles I saw

Mike

On Fri, May 28, 2021, 13:24 Greg Keogh  wrote:

> For those interested in this story, here is some new information regarding
>> the audit:
>>
>> https://www.audit.vic.gov.au/report/implementing-a-new-infringements-management-system
>> I found the following quote from the article particularly interesting:
>>
>>
>> *"DJCS expected VIEW to deliver 90 per cent of its required functionality
>> at the go-live date. However, following its launch, it became apparent that
>> the vendor had delivered substantially less functionality than DJCS
>> expected, which DJCS later estimated to be 5 per cent on go live."*
>>
>
> Wow! well found. I only scrolled down the very long page, but it looks
> like they bought an off-the-shelf system that needed +70% customisation.
> They did not have the IT expertise to know what they were buying or might
> need to build. There was no proper manager over the whole thing. Oh! There
> were conflicts of interest. Inadequate contract management. Inadequate
> testing.
>
> As an aside: the article only contains 13 "impacts".
>
> *Greg K*
>

Re: [OT] Fines Victoria crisis deepens

[DotNet Dude]

On Fri, 28 May 2021 at 17:29, mike smith  wrote:

> Who was the vendor?  Seems to be omitted from all the articles I saw
>

Civica International


> Mike
>
> On Fri, May 28, 2021, 13:24 Greg Keogh  wrote:
>
>> For those interested in this story, here is some new information
>>> regarding the audit:
>>>
>>> https://www.audit.vic.gov.au/report/implementing-a-new-infringements-management-system
>>> I found the following quote from the article particularly interesting:
>>>
>>>
>>> *"DJCS expected VIEW to deliver 90 per cent of its required
>>> functionality at the go-live date. However, following its launch, it became
>>> apparent that the vendor had delivered substantially less functionality
>>> than DJCS expected, which DJCS later estimated to be 5 per cent on go
>>> live."*
>>>
>>
>> Wow! well found. I only scrolled down the very long page, but it looks
>> like they bought an off-the-shelf system that needed +70% customisation.
>> They did not have the IT expertise to know what they were buying or might
>> need to build. There was no proper manager over the whole thing. Oh! There
>> were conflicts of interest. Inadequate contract management. Inadequate
>> testing.
>>
>> As an aside: the article only contains 13 "impacts".
>>
>> *Greg K*
>>
>