Re: OT: Cycling in New York
Sadly there's nothing really ironic about petty abuses of power. On 6/10/2011 1:54 PM, Bob W wrote: Great video here about a guy's response to being ticketed for not cycling in the bike lane: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bzE-IMaegzQ Ironically he shouldn't have been ticketed, because it's not a legal requirement to use them. B -- Where's the Kaboom? There was supposed to be an Earth-shattering Kaboom! --Marvin the Martian. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT: Cycling in New York
On Mon, Jun 13, 2011 at 4:19 PM, Charles Robinson charl...@visi.com wrote: On Jun 11, 2011, at 22:15, Scott Loveless wrote: On Sat, Jun 11, 2011 at 10:13 PM, John Coyle jco...@iinet.net.au wrote: We have bike lanes in Brisbane too, often, sensibly, between the parking lane and the traffic lanes. Like this? https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/RTTN7a8MM_Y6qZwvxy4PD7E9gr-o3kOAFcuAuy7-Ync?feat=directlink It's called a door zone and it's dangerous. Here's why: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Door_zone The new bike lanes in downtown Minneapolis are between the curb and the parking lane. How do you turn left? -- Scott Loveless http://www.twosixteen.com/fivetoedsloth/ __o _'\,_ (*)/ (*) -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT: Cycling in New York
On 2011-06-15 14:01 , Scott Loveless wrote: On Mon, Jun 13, 2011 at 4:19 PM, Charles Robinsoncharl...@visi.com wrote: The new bike lanes in downtown Minneapolis are between the curb and the parking lane. How do you turn left? you go past your turn by one block then take three right turns -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT: Cycling in New York
How do you turn left? On 15/6/11, steve harley, discombobulated, unleashed: you go past your turn by one block then take three right turns Damn I wish Bob had said that. -- Cheers, Cotty ___/\__ || (O) | People, Places, Pastiche -- http://www.cottysnaps.com _ -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT: Cycling in New York
Kenneth Waller http://www.pentaxphotogallery.com/kennethwaller - Original Message - From: Scott Loveless sdlovel...@gmail.com Subject: Re: OT: Cycling in New York On Mon, Jun 13, 2011 at 4:19 PM, Charles Robinson charl...@visi.com wrote: On Jun 11, 2011, at 22:15, Scott Loveless wrote: On Sat, Jun 11, 2011 at 10:13 PM, John Coyle jco...@iinet.net.au wrote: We have bike lanes in Brisbane too, often, sensibly, between the parking lane and the traffic lanes. Like this? https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/RTTN7a8MM_Y6qZwvxy4PD7E9gr-o3kOAFcuAuy7-Ync?feat=directlink It's called a door zone and it's dangerous. Here's why: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Door_zone The new bike lanes in downtown Minneapolis are between the curb and the parking lane. How do you turn left? You push the right side of the handlebar forward, while pulling the left side towards you. -- Scott Loveless http://www.twosixteen.com/fivetoedsloth/ __o _'\,_ (*)/ (*) -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT: Cycling in New York
On Jun 15, 2011, at 15:01, Scott Loveless wrote: On Mon, Jun 13, 2011 at 4:19 PM, Charles Robinson charl...@visi.com wrote: On Jun 11, 2011, at 22:15, Scott Loveless wrote: On Sat, Jun 11, 2011 at 10:13 PM, John Coyle jco...@iinet.net.au wrote: We have bike lanes in Brisbane too, often, sensibly, between the parking lane and the traffic lanes. Like this? https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/RTTN7a8MM_Y6qZwvxy4PD7E9gr-o3kOAFcuAuy7-Ync?feat=directlink It's called a door zone and it's dangerous. Here's why: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Door_zone The new bike lanes in downtown Minneapolis are between the curb and the parking lane. How do you turn left? Funny, y'know? On 1st Avenue where those paths are, no matter which direction I've travelled, I've always turned RIGHT to leave the road. I'm not sure what the solution would be other than to get out into the traffic lane. I really don't know the best answer to that question. -Charles -- Charles Robinson - charl...@visi.com Minneapolis, MN http://charles.robinsontwins.org http://www.facebook.com/charles.robinson -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT: Cycling in New York
On Jun 15, 2011, at 15:16, Ken Waller wrote: - Original Message - From: Scott Loveless sdlovel...@gmail.com Subject: Re: OT: Cycling in New York On Mon, Jun 13, 2011 at 4:19 PM, Charles Robinson charl...@visi.com wrote: On Jun 11, 2011, at 22:15, Scott Loveless wrote: On Sat, Jun 11, 2011 at 10:13 PM, John Coyle jco...@iinet.net.au wrote: We have bike lanes in Brisbane too, often, sensibly, between the parking lane and the traffic lanes. Like this? https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/RTTN7a8MM_Y6qZwvxy4PD7E9gr-o3kOAFcuAuy7-Ync?feat=directlink It's called a door zone and it's dangerous. Here's why: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Door_zone The new bike lanes in downtown Minneapolis are between the curb and the parking lane. How do you turn left? You push the right side of the handlebar forward, while pulling the left side towards you. Unless you're going fast enough to countersteer. Then it's push the LEFT side of the handlebar away to tip the bike to the left. -Charles -- Charles Robinson - charl...@visi.com Minneapolis, MN http://charles.robinsontwins.org http://www.facebook.com/charles.robinson -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
RE: OT: Cycling in New York
How do you turn left? On 15/6/11, steve harley, discombobulated, unleashed: you go past your turn by one block then take three right turns Damn I wish Bob had said that. Cheers, Cotty I'd have stolen a line from Martin Amis: if you wanted to be on that side of the road you should have been born there. B -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT: Cycling in New York
On 15/6/11, Bob W, discombobulated, unleashed: I'd have stolen a line from Martin Amis: if you wanted to be on that side of the road you should have been born there. I would have borrowed a line from Colonel Sanders: 'If you wanted to be on that side of the road you should have been a chicken...' -- Cheers, Cotty ___/\__ || (O) | People, Places, Pastiche -- http://www.cottysnaps.com _ -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT: Cycling in New York
On Jun 11, 2011, at 22:15, Scott Loveless wrote: On Sat, Jun 11, 2011 at 10:13 PM, John Coyle jco...@iinet.net.au wrote: We have bike lanes in Brisbane too, often, sensibly, between the parking lane and the traffic lanes. Like this? https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/RTTN7a8MM_Y6qZwvxy4PD7E9gr-o3kOAFcuAuy7-Ync?feat=directlink It's called a door zone and it's dangerous. Here's why: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Door_zone I refuse to ride in door zones, giving myself at least 4 or 5 feet between me and parked cars. If that means I'm in your way, too bad. Your being late takes a back seat to my safety. The new bike lanes in downtown Minneapolis are between the curb and the parking lane. It took the drivers SOME amount of time to get used to the idea of parking 4 feet away from the curb... but it is sheer heaven to bike down the road now. All the traffic is one car's-width away.. you just need to keep an eye out for the very-occasional passenger opening their door (but most cars, let's face it, have ONE occupant and that's in the driver's seat). -Charles -- Charles Robinson - charl...@visi.com Minneapolis, MN http://charles.robinsontwins.org http://www.facebook.com/charles.robinson -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
RE: OT: Cycling in New York
From: pdml-boun...@pdml.net [mailto:pdml-boun...@pdml.net] On Behalf Of Ann Sanfedele Bob if you do get here in the fall, you will understand what Dan and I are saying about this... One thing about the cars is that the traffic can be so bad that they are scarcely moving - sometimes at a total standstill so a pedestrian can cross the street without fear :) but the cyclists then weave in and out of the cars and , as I said before, if you are walking you cant hear them and they go so fast if you look in one direction and are clear they might be there in a flash when you look in the other... the situation is the same here in London. I cycle to work almost every day, and mostly the motor traffic is at a standstill. I've also in the past routinely driven to work, so I know it from both sides. There is a perfectly valid, legal and recommended technique for cyclists, including motor cyclists, to filter in slow- or non-moving traffic. In the UK, at least, it's perfectly legal to do this. As pedestrians - which we all are - we also have a responsibility to look out for ourselves, but I've had any number of pedestrians step in front of me without looking. Luckily I haven't had any accidents that way. Equally, of course, the cyclists should be looking out for pedestrians. It's quite simply, really. People should stop being selfish, and walk, cycle, drive courteously. They even cycle at night without lights or reflector The courteous and safe have bells to jingle and lights so you can see them at night, but there are far to many who are way reckless. sure, but they're already breaking the law. Making it compulsory to use cycle lanes just gives the bad cyclists one more law to break, and it makes things more dangerous for the law-abiding cyclists. On the basis of this discussion I'd say your problem is not cyclists per se, but New Yorkers in general since the cyclists' and drivers' behaviour seems to be equally bad. Would love the private cars to go too, as I said earlier. Me too. ann - frankly scared of 'em -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
RE: OT: Cycling in New York
Compulsory cycle lanes make cycling less safe for cyclists, pedestrians and motor traffic, particularly at junctions. What about Nederlands? From what I saw, they even get their own traffic lights at major junctions. But are the lanes compulsory? That's the issue. The Netherlands has a completely different traffic culture to the UK, where roads, traffic etc is designed specifically with cycling at the forefront of peoples's minds, not as a begrudged afterthought as it is so often here. In London and other parts of the UK the cycle lanes tend to be extremely badly designed. Camden is the worst borough in my experience, and they even have cycle-specific traffic lights on some of their crossings, but the lanes are frankly rubbish and very dangerous, and I won't use them. Bring your bike over sometime, or hire a Boris bike, and I'll show you. Every country road has a separate cycle lane/ footpath either side, lit, gotta be safer to keep cars and cycles apart? But it isn't, not in isolation from other measures. It may be counter-intuitive, but it's safer all round to mix traffic, and this is also one way in which the Dutch are leading, with 'naked roads' - where pedestrians, cyclists, motor traffic all mix on roads without traffic lights or street signs or separate pavements. There are some experiments with this taking place in London, particularly on Exhibition Road from Hyde Park down to South Ken. It'll be interesting to see how it works out, but to be successful this sort of measure needs some major changes in culture, and that's the main difference between the Netherlands and here, I'd say. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/4789146.stm But even if they absolutely guaranteed 100% safety, I would still be opposed to compulsion. B -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT: Cycling in New York
On Jun 12, 2011, at 8:49 AM, Daniel J. Matyola wrote: Large stretches of Broadway are now pedetrian mall, with tables and chair set up right in the middle of the street: http://photo.net/photodb/photo?photo_id=11070283 That would look nice without the billboards... Dave -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
RE: OT: Cycling in New York
Compulsory cycle lanes make cycling less safe for cyclists, pedestrians and motor traffic, particularly at junctions. What about Nederlands? From what I saw, they even get their own traffic lights at major junctions. But are the lanes compulsory? That's the issue. The Netherlands has a completely different traffic culture to the UK, where roads, traffic etc is designed specifically with cycling at the forefront of peoples's minds, not as a begrudged afterthought as it is so often here. On the subject of our tulip-munching cousins, I've just found a rather interesting little factoid on this website: http://holland.cyclingaroundtheworld.nl/Five-reasons.html. Holland has got the best cycle lane network in the world. You can cycle on more than 19.000 kilometres of bicycles paths and lanes. It makes cycling in Holland enjoyable and safe (Holland is the fourth safest country as far as traffic concerns. Only the U.K., Sweden and Norway have lower numbers of fatalities) Interesting, huh? B -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT: Cycling in New York
On Jun 12, 2011, at 7:33 PM, Bob W wrote: Making it compulsory to use cycle lanes just gives the bad cyclists one more law to break, and it makes things more dangerous for the law-abiding cyclists. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-13730774 In case nobody's posted it already :) Dave -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT: Cycling in New York
Bob W wrote: From: pdml-boun...@pdml.net [mailto:pdml-boun...@pdml.net] On Behalf Of Ann Sanfedele . They even cycle at night without lights or reflector The courteous and safe have bells to jingle and lights so you can see them at night, but there are far to many who are way reckless. sure, but they're already breaking the law. Making it compulsory to use cycle lanes just gives the bad cyclists one more law to break, and it makes things more dangerous for the law-abiding cyclists. I dont' really care if there is a law about it or not, Bob, I was just pointing out originally that the guy who made that vid said on TV he liked bike lanes, he just didn't want people to get tickets for not using them when they clearly couldn't because of obstructions... and that , at least in my neighborhood, I found it a lot easier to navigate crossing the street with the bike lanes arranged as they are here. On the basis of this discussion I'd say your problem is not cyclists per se, but New Yorkers in general since the cyclists' and drivers' behaviour seems to be equally bad. Yes.. but... The cyclists are the New Yorkers -- the drivers are from New Jersey ;-) (a standard snicker here, but , in fact, most of the drivers in personal cars that are driving in Manhattan are not the ones living here - except on Friday afternoon and Sunday night. anyway... beating a dead horse here... sorry ann -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT: Cycling in New York
35 years ago, I remember a middle aged woman cycling up the highstreet to a shop in her mink jacket. The friends we were visiting explained that cars were still being introduced to the Netherlands. In the suburbs ourside the Hauge... Regards, Bob S. On Sun, Jun 12, 2011 at 4:01 AM, Bob W p...@web-options.com wrote: Compulsory cycle lanes make cycling less safe for cyclists, pedestrians and motor traffic, particularly at junctions. What about Nederlands? From what I saw, they even get their own traffic lights at major junctions. But are the lanes compulsory? That's the issue. The Netherlands has a completely different traffic culture to the UK, where roads, traffic etc is designed specifically with cycling at the forefront of peoples's minds, not as a begrudged afterthought as it is so often here. On the subject of our tulip-munching cousins, I've just found a rather interesting little factoid on this website: http://holland.cyclingaroundtheworld.nl/Five-reasons.html. Holland has got the best cycle lane network in the world. You can cycle on more than 19.000 kilometres of bicycles paths and lanes. It makes cycling in Holland enjoyable and safe (Holland is the fourth safest country as far as traffic concerns. Only the U.K., Sweden and Norway have lower numbers of fatalities) Interesting, huh? B -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT: Cycling in New York
As a pedestrian in a smaller city, my experience is that cyclists are at least as rude and inconsiderate of pedestrians as they complain that automobile driver are to them ... if not more so. As a cyclist, the only problem I ever had with a motor vehicle was being brushed aside by a city bus. There was no bike lane. Knocked me down bent the front wheel, so that I had to push the bicycle home where I loaded it in the back of my automobile to take it to be repaired. From that, I learned to ride in the middle of the lane, rather than near the right hand edge. - No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 10.0.1382 / Virus Database: 1513/3698 - Release Date: 06/12/11 -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
RE: OT: Cycling in New York
From: Bob W On the subject of our tulip-munching cousins, I've just found a rather interesting little factoid on this website: http://holland.cyclingaroundtheworld.nl/Five-reasons.html. Holland has got the best cycle lane network in the world. You can cycle on more than 19.000 kilometres of bicycles paths and lanes. It makes cycling in Holland enjoyable and safe (Holland is the fourth safest country as far as traffic concerns. Only the U.K., Sweden and Norway have lower numbers of fatalities) Interesting, huh? I'd be interested in why the UK, Sweden Norway have lower numbers. Is it because they're safer places to ride or because they have fewer cyclists? Or something else? I'd also be interested if pedestrians share the cycle lanes? The photos illustrating them make them look like what we call greenways around here; mixed use pedestrian cycle ways. - No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 10.0.1382 / Virus Database: 1513/3698 - Release Date: 06/12/11 -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT: Cycling in New York
From: Ann Sanfedele Daniel J. Matyola wrote: The problem, Frank, is that the bikes in the traffic lanes DON'T go the speed of traffic; they run through lights and cut in and out and THEY make sudden swoops onto the cross street and back, cutting through pedestrian traffic, scattering tourists in all directions. The bike lanes are relatively new, and they provide a lot of safety to both cyclists and pedestrians. Unfortunately, those who are impatient create a safety hazard. Dan On Sat, Jun 11, 2011 at 2:15 PM, frank theriault knarftheria...@gmail.com wrote: I'd much rather be right in the middle of a car lane, going the speed of traffic where they cars can see me, than stuck in a bike lane, on the periphery, subject to sudden swoops by cars diving into and out of illegal parking spots, subject to car doors being suddenly flung open into my face by disembarking passengers, etc. Second that... Really, in NY there are so many reckless people on bikes you really can't imagine... and on a noisy street if you are a slow moving pedestrian you are in peril frequently.. You can't hear the bikes approaching and they are particularly bold when there is stand still traffic with cars... and many don't realise how scary they are for the old and fragile - whooosh! I hate that. Maybe they could make it a law requiring cyclists to have a playing card sticking into the spokes. That way you could at least hear them coming up behind you. The bike lanes are useful for , at the very least, if people stay in them warning we who neither drive or ride bikes that a bike might be coming down the lane. But you still have to look _both_ ways. at first I thought it was a bad idea too... but it really is working in my neighborhood. In the best of all possible worlds in Manhattan, all private cars would be banned just busses , necessary business deliveries and bikes and trikes and pedestrians. Or do like the old sci-fi stories predicted and segregate the commercial delivery truck traffic off into underground tunnels; something like what Underground Atlanta started out as. The holier than thou attitude of some riders in New York and being yelled at by a twenty year old on a bike to get out of the way when I'm crossing the street with the light and he is running it ain't so much fun. ann One of the reasons why I don't own a gun. - No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 10.0.1382 / Virus Database: 1513/3698 - Release Date: 06/12/11 -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
RE: OT: Cycling in New York
John Sessoms On the subject of our tulip-munching cousins, I've just found a rather interesting little factoid on this website: http://holland.cyclingaroundtheworld.nl/Five-reasons.html. Holland has got the best cycle lane network in the world. You can cycle on more than 19.000 kilometres of bicycles paths and lanes. It makes cycling in Holland enjoyable and safe (Holland is the fourth safest country as far as traffic concerns. Only the U.K., Sweden and Norway have lower numbers of fatalities) Interesting, huh? I'd be interested in why the UK, Sweden Norway have lower numbers. Is it because they're safer places to ride or because they have fewer cyclists? Or something else? it's lower traffic fatalities - all traffic, not just cycling. The thing I found interesting about the factoid is that people here are always banging on about how many Dutch people cycle, and why can't the UK be more like the Netherlands, yet apparently the UK is a safer place to be a road user, which kind of makes all those wishes a bit silly really. I have no idea why this is, but I do suspect at least part of the reason is that organisations like the CTC, among others, are constantly struggling to make sure that bicycles are recognised as normal traffic and treated as such. I'd also be interested if pedestrians share the cycle lanes? The photos illustrating them make them look like what we call greenways around here; mixed use pedestrian cycle ways. I hate shared-use pedestrian and cycle ways - they are the worst of all possible worlds, and they are one of several reasons why I object to cycle lanes in general. Pedestrians slow cyclists down, and cyclists mow pedestrians down. Nobody likes it except drivers. For utility cycling such as city commuting or fitness cycling, the cyclist wants to go at a decent pace, which is only possible on main roads shared with motor traffic. 20-25mph is common for cycle commuters, but it would be impossible and irresponsible on a shared-use path, and is impossible if you're obliged either by law or by physical barriers to use a narrow cycle-only path because a) the paths are shit, and b) Miss Marples gets in the way on her Pashley. What we do in London, and perhaps New York ought to do this if they don't already, is have lanes which can only be used by buses, black cabs and cyclists. They are monitored by licence-plate-reading cameras, so drivers who stray into them get a hefty fine. Recently they've also been opened up to motor-cyclists, which to me seems to be working reasonably well, although it can be unpleasant to be stuck behind them at the lights; and paradoxically it coincides with an increase in collisions between motor bikes and cars. B -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT: Cycling in New York
On Sun, Jun 12, 2011 at 08:31:10PM +1200, David Mann wrote: On Jun 12, 2011, at 8:49 AM, Daniel J. Matyola wrote: Large stretches of Broadway are now pedetrian mall, with tables and chair set up right in the middle of the street: http://photo.net/photodb/photo?photo_id=11070283 That would look nice without the billboards... And the buildings ... -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT: Cycling in New York
I know where you can get one (and a nice TV dinner). -Original Message- From: John Sessoms jsessoms...@nc.rr.com Sender: pdml-boun...@pdml.net Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2011 13:39:09 To: pdml@pdml.net Reply-To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List pdml@pdml.net Subject: Re: OT: Cycling in New York From: Ann Sanfedele Daniel J. Matyola wrote: The problem, Frank, is that the bikes in the traffic lanes DON'T go the speed of traffic; they run through lights and cut in and out and THEY make sudden swoops onto the cross street and back, cutting through pedestrian traffic, scattering tourists in all directions. The bike lanes are relatively new, and they provide a lot of safety to both cyclists and pedestrians. Unfortunately, those who are impatient create a safety hazard. Dan On Sat, Jun 11, 2011 at 2:15 PM, frank theriault knarftheria...@gmail.com wrote: I'd much rather be right in the middle of a car lane, going the speed of traffic where they cars can see me, than stuck in a bike lane, on the periphery, subject to sudden swoops by cars diving into and out of illegal parking spots, subject to car doors being suddenly flung open into my face by disembarking passengers, etc. Second that... Really, in NY there are so many reckless people on bikes you really can't imagine... and on a noisy street if you are a slow moving pedestrian you are in peril frequently.. You can't hear the bikes approaching and they are particularly bold when there is stand still traffic with cars... and many don't realise how scary they are for the old and fragile - whooosh! I hate that. Maybe they could make it a law requiring cyclists to have a playing card sticking into the spokes. That way you could at least hear them coming up behind you. The bike lanes are useful for , at the very least, if people stay in them warning we who neither drive or ride bikes that a bike might be coming down the lane. But you still have to look _both_ ways. at first I thought it was a bad idea too... but it really is working in my neighborhood. In the best of all possible worlds in Manhattan, all private cars would be banned just busses , necessary business deliveries and bikes and trikes and pedestrians. Or do like the old sci-fi stories predicted and segregate the commercial delivery truck traffic off into underground tunnels; something like what Underground Atlanta started out as. The holier than thou attitude of some riders in New York and being yelled at by a twenty year old on a bike to get out of the way when I'm crossing the street with the light and he is running it ain't so much fun. ann One of the reasons why I don't own a gun. - No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 10.0.1382 / Virus Database: 1513/3698 - Release Date: 06/12/11 -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT: Cycling in New York
I know where you can get one (and a nice TV dinner). Still pointless if I'm not allowed to use it shoot who I think needs shootin'. - No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 10.0.1382 / Virus Database: 1513/3698 - Release Date: 06/12/11 -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT: Cycling in New York
Without the billboards, it wouldn't be Broadway. Dan On Sun, Jun 12, 2011 at 08:31:10PM +1200, David Mann wrote: On Jun 12, 2011, at 8:49 AM, Daniel J. Matyola wrote: Large stretches of Broadway are now pedetrian mall, with tables and chair set up right in the middle of the street: http://photo.net/photodb/photo?photo_id=11070283 That would look nice without the billboards... -- Dan Matyola http://www.pentaxphotogallery.com/danieljmatyola -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT: Cycling in New York
On 12/06/2011 20:01, Bob W wrote: John Sessoms On the subject of our tulip-munching cousins, I've just found a rather interesting little factoid on this website: http://holland.cyclingaroundtheworld.nl/Five-reasons.html. Holland has got the best cycle lane network in the world. You can cycle on more than 19.000 kilometres of bicycles paths and lanes. It makes cycling in Holland enjoyable and safe (Holland is the fourth safest country as far as traffic concerns. Only the U.K., Sweden and Norway have lower numbers of fatalities) Interesting, huh? I'd be interested in why the UK, Sweden Norway have lower numbers. Is it because they're safer places to ride or because they have fewer cyclists? Or something else? it's lower traffic fatalities - all traffic, not just cycling. The thing I found interesting about the factoid is that people here are always banging on about how many Dutch people cycle, and why can't the UK be more like the Netherlands, yet apparently the UK is a safer place to be a road user, which kind of makes all those wishes a bit silly really. I have no idea why this is, but I do suspect at least part of the reason is that organisations like the CTC, among others, are constantly struggling to make sure that bicycles are recognised as normal traffic and treated as such. I'd also be interested if pedestrians share the cycle lanes? The photos illustrating them make them look like what we call greenways around here; mixed use pedestrian cycle ways. I hate shared-use pedestrian and cycle ways - they are the worst of all possible worlds, and they are one of several reasons why I object to cycle lanes in general. Pedestrians slow cyclists down, and cyclists mow pedestrians down. Nobody likes it except drivers. For utility cycling such as city commuting or fitness cycling, the cyclist wants to go at a decent pace, which is only possible on main roads shared with motor traffic. 20-25mph is common for cycle commuters, but it would be impossible and irresponsible on a shared-use path, and is impossible if you're obliged either by law or by physical barriers to use a narrow cycle-only path because a) the paths are shit, and b) Miss Marples gets in the way on her Pashley. What we do in London, and perhaps New York ought to do this if they don't already, is have lanes which can only be used by buses, black cabs and cyclists. They are monitored by licence-plate-reading cameras, so drivers who stray into them get a hefty fine. And there's the nub of the reason for lower casualties. Traffic in the above countries is highly regulated and laws are enforced vigorously. Per vehicle/mile, the UK is probably the safest. Sweden and Norway together probably have a smaller total population than the number of vehicles on UK roads. Recently they've also been opened up to motor-cyclists, which to me seems to be working reasonably well, although it can be unpleasant to be stuck behind them at the lights; and paradoxically it coincides with an increase in collisions between motor bikes and cars. B -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT: Cycling in New York
I assumed that was a reference to deer, since they are the ones that munch all my tulips. On the subject of our tulip-munching cousins -- Dan Matyola http://www.pentaxphotogallery.com/danieljmatyola -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT: Cycling in New York
If they aren't required to use the bike lanes in New York, they should be. The traffic, especially in Manhattan, is buy and hazardous, and the conflict between bikes, pedestrians, cars, taxis, buses and trucks can be severe. Dan Great video here about a guy's response to being ticketed for not cycling in the bike lane: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bzE-IMaegzQ Ironically he shouldn't have been ticketed, because it's not a legal requirement to use them. B -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- Dan Matyola http://www.pentaxphotogallery.com/danieljmatyola -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
RE: OT: Cycling in New York
If they aren't required to use the bike lanes in New York, they should be. The traffic, especially in Manhattan, is buy and hazardous, and the conflict between bikes, pedestrians, cars, taxis, buses and trucks can be severe. Dan Compulsory cycle lanes make cycling less safe for cyclists, pedestrians and motor traffic, particularly at junctions. Cycling is a very safe activity, and the more cyclists mix with the other traffic, the safer all the traffic becomes. This may seem counter-intuitive but the evidence from London over recent years clearly supports it, as does my own experience. http://www.cyclecraft.co.uk/digest/facilitated.pdf http://www.ctc.org.uk/desktopdefault.aspx?tabid=5225 The best way to reduce the number and severity of accidents is to improve the training of all road users, and to design roads giving equal consideration to all, instead of designing in favour of one section of the road-using population. B Great video here about a guy's response to being ticketed for not cycling in the bike lane: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bzE-IMaegzQ Ironically he shouldn't have been ticketed, because it's not a legal requirement to use them. B -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- Dan Matyola http://www.pentaxphotogallery.com/danieljmatyola -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT: Cycling in New York
On the roads, yes. In the cities, where the weave in and out of traffic and try to cut off taxis, it is very hazardous to the cyclists and to the pedestrians. I have seen pedestrians in Manhattan forced into a coming taxi to avoid being run over by charging bicycles. Dan On Sat, Jun 11, 2011 at 10:45 AM, Bob W p...@web-options.com wrote: If they aren't required to use the bike lanes in New York, they should be. The traffic, especially in Manhattan, is buy and hazardous, and the conflict between bikes, pedestrians, cars, taxis, buses and trucks can be severe. Dan Compulsory cycle lanes make cycling less safe for cyclists, pedestrians and motor traffic, particularly at junctions. Cycling is a very safe activity, and the more cyclists mix with the other traffic, the safer all the traffic becomes. This may seem counter-intuitive but the evidence from London over recent years clearly supports it, as does my own experience. http://www.cyclecraft.co.uk/digest/facilitated.pdf http://www.ctc.org.uk/desktopdefault.aspx?tabid=5225 The best way to reduce the number and severity of accidents is to improve the training of all road users, and to design roads giving equal consideration to all, instead of designing in favour of one section of the road-using population. B Great video here about a guy's response to being ticketed for not cycling in the bike lane: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bzE-IMaegzQ Ironically he shouldn't have been ticketed, because it's not a legal requirement to use them. B -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- Dan Matyola http://www.pentaxphotogallery.com/danieljmatyola -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- Dan Matyola http://www.pentaxphotogallery.com/danieljmatyola -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT: Cycling in New York
Daniel J. Matyola wrote: If they aren't required to use the bike lanes in New York, they should be. The traffic, especially in Manhattan, is buy and hazardous, and the conflict between bikes, pedestrians, cars, taxis, buses and trucks can be severe. Dan Great video here about a guy's response to being ticketed for not cycling in the bike lane: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bzE-IMaegzQ Ironically he shouldn't have been ticketed, because it's not a legal requirement to use them. It is or will soon be... if there is a bike lane and it isn't blocked.. The guy that did the video likes the bike lanes he was just pointing out that the bike lanes were often blocked by trucks unloading, people standing in them, etc. (I heard him interviewed on local news station a couple of times) The bike lanes have helped on major streets but not all streets have them so, of course, if there is no lane a bike can still ride on it - but must obey the one way directions, stop signs, speed limit - etc that cars do. That isn't happening all the time. The other day a father with is toddler on the bike with him was going the wrong way on my street and when I was crossing , having looked in the dirction the traffic comes from legally, he shouted watch out I called back you're going the wrong way and he TURNS and shouts back but I called watch out (!) Every time I go out I see bikers going the wrong way in a bike lane, riding on the sidewalk, not riding in the lanes when they are clear, speeding, not stopping at lights... and they aren't getting ticketed for that often enough. Mostly it has been a great help to pedestrian safety, tho. .. especially the parked cars not being right on the curb ann -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT: Cycling in New York
Bob W wrote: The best way to reduce the number and severity of accidents is to improve the training of all road users, and to design roads giving equal consideration to all, instead of designing in favour of one section of the road-using population. B Never been to New York, have you? :-) a -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
RE: OT: Cycling in New York
On the roads, yes. In the cities, where the weave in and out of traffic and try to cut off taxis, it is very hazardous to the cyclists and to the pedestrians. I have seen pedestrians in Manhattan forced into a coming taxi to avoid being run over by charging bicycles. Dan Er, London is a city too. Do you really believe that because some cyclists break the law all cyclists should be forced into unsafe behaviour? How about if all motorists were forced into unsafe behaviour because some of them break the law? B On Sat, Jun 11, 2011 at 10:45 AM, Bob W p...@web-options.com wrote: If they aren't required to use the bike lanes in New York, they should be. The traffic, especially in Manhattan, is buy and hazardous, and the conflict between bikes, pedestrians, cars, taxis, buses and trucks can be severe. Dan Compulsory cycle lanes make cycling less safe for cyclists, pedestrians and motor traffic, particularly at junctions. Cycling is a very safe activity, and the more cyclists mix with the other traffic, the safer all the traffic becomes. This may seem counter- intuitive but the evidence from London over recent years clearly supports it, as does my own experience. http://www.cyclecraft.co.uk/digest/facilitated.pdf http://www.ctc.org.uk/desktopdefault.aspx?tabid=5225 The best way to reduce the number and severity of accidents is to improve the training of all road users, and to design roads giving equal consideration to all, instead of designing in favour of one section of the road-using population. B Great video here about a guy's response to being ticketed for not cycling in the bike lane: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bzE-IMaegzQ Ironically he shouldn't have been ticketed, because it's not a legal requirement to use them. B -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- Dan Matyola http://www.pentaxphotogallery.com/danieljmatyola -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- Dan Matyola http://www.pentaxphotogallery.com/danieljmatyola -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT: Cycling in New York
On Sat, Jun 11, 2011 at 8:11 AM, Daniel J. Matyola danmaty...@gmail.com wrote: If they aren't required to use the bike lanes in New York, they should be. The traffic, especially in Manhattan, is buy and hazardous, and the conflict between bikes, pedestrians, cars, taxis, buses and trucks can be severe. Having spent all of a weekend (including a Friday) in Manhattan some 5 or 6 years ago (stayed with Ann!), I must disagree with you. The traffic speed seems to top out at no more than 30 km/h (20 mph) when it's not gridlocked. I'd much rather be right in the middle of a car lane, going the speed of traffic where they cars can see me, than stuck in a bike lane, on the periphery, subject to sudden swoops by cars diving into and out of illegal parking spots, subject to car doors being suddenly flung open into my face by disembarking passengers, etc. I love bike lanes. If traffic isn't heavy, if there aren't too many slow moving bikes, I'm there. But if conditions make it safer for me to be in a car lane, I really want that option. It's much safer for everybody that way. cheers, frank -- Sharpness is a bourgeois concept. -Henri Cartier-Bresson -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT: Cycling in New York
On Sat, Jun 11, 2011 at 12:19 PM, Bob W p...@web-options.com wrote: Er, London is a city too. Do you really believe that because some cyclists break the law all cyclists should be forced into unsafe behaviour? How about if all motorists were forced into unsafe behaviour because some of them break the law? Bingo! It's really easy to pick on cyclists - we're slower moving (compared to cars), we aren't enclosed in a steel and glass cage - we're easy targets. But I've seen cars going the wrong way down one-way streets (on purpose, because they were only going one or two driveways down!). As for stop signs, sit at one and count the number of cars that don't stop. I've done that several times. Not counting if a car has to stop to let a pedestrian or another car go first, if there are no other vehicles or pedestrians at an intersection, it's about a 90% no-stop rate, everything from a rolling stop to barely slowing down. Ever sit at an intersection with traffic lights? Virtually every change to a red light sees several cars sneak through well after the light has turned red. I admit that bikes can seem a nuisance when we break traffic laws, but keep in mind that when we do so we tend to do much less damage than cars often do - usually the person injured is the cyclist alone. It's been about 5 years since a pedestrian was killed by a bike here in Toronto. In the meanwhile, some fifty or sixty pedestrians a year are killed by automobiles. If we're going to crack down on bad road manners, who should we go after, cars or bikes? Yes, I know, the answer is both, but please, don't target us before cars. cheers, frank -- Sharpness is a bourgeois concept. -Henri Cartier-Bresson -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
RE: OT: Cycling in New York
Er, London is a city too. Do you really believe that because some cyclists break the law all cyclists should be forced into unsafe behaviour? How about if all motorists were forced into unsafe behaviour because some of them break the law? Bingo! It's really easy to pick on cyclists - we're slower moving (compared to cars), we aren't enclosed in a steel and glass cage - we're easy targets. [...] killed by automobiles. If we're going to crack down on bad road manners, who should we go after, cars or bikes? Yes, I know, the answer is both, but please, don't target us before cars. cheers, frank also worth pointing out that if the aim of bringing in a new law is to curb the people who are already breaking existing laws, it ain't gunna work - they'll ignore that one too. What works is investigating the way traffic - all traffic - operates, and redesigning the streets to improve it for everyone. B -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT: Cycling in New York
The problem, Frank, is that the bikes in the traffic lanes DON'T go the speed of traffic; they run through lights and cut in and out and THEY make sudden swoops onto the cross street and back, cutting through pedestrian traffic, scattering tourists in all directions. The bike lanes are relatively new, and they provide a lot of safety to both cyclists and pedestrians. Unfortunately, those who are impatient create a safety hazard. Dan On Sat, Jun 11, 2011 at 2:15 PM, frank theriault knarftheria...@gmail.com wrote: I'd much rather be right in the middle of a car lane, going the speed of traffic where they cars can see me, than stuck in a bike lane, on the periphery, subject to sudden swoops by cars diving into and out of illegal parking spots, subject to car doors being suddenly flung open into my face by disembarking passengers, etc. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT: Cycling in New York
Yes, I do believe that if bikes cause safety problems, all bikes should be force to follow reasonable rules. I have been to London more than once. London may be a city, but it is in England, and the drivers and cyclists drive like Englishmen, not like New Yorkers. London taxis are driven by sane, courteous men and women. New York cab drivers think they are in a demolition derby. London Cyclists seem to value their own lives; some of the cyclists in New York appear to be daring someone to hit them with a car (preferably a limo). Amsterdam has the heaviest bike traffic I have ever seen. The bikes move fast, but they move together in large groups, and in a very orderly fashion. The bottom line is that different circumstances require different rules. Dan On Sat, Jun 11, 2011 at 3:22 PM, Bob W p...@web-options.com wrote: Er, London is a city too. Do you really believe that because some cyclists break the law all cyclists should be forced into unsafe behaviour? How about if all motorists were forced into unsafe behaviour because some of them break the law? -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
RE: OT: Cycling in New York
From: pdml-boun...@pdml.net [mailto:pdml-boun...@pdml.net] On Behalf Of Daniel J. Matyola Yes, I do believe that if bikes cause safety problems, all bikes should be force to follow reasonable rules. I have been to London more than once. London may be a city, but it is in England, and the drivers and cyclists drive like Englishmen, not like New Yorkers. London taxis are driven by sane, courteous men and women. New York cab drivers think they are in a demolition derby. Sounds like the drivers are at least as much of a problem as the cyclists. What do you propose to do about them? B London Cyclists seem to value their own lives; some of the cyclists in New York appear to be daring someone to hit them with a car (preferably a limo). Amsterdam has the heaviest bike traffic I have ever seen. The bikes move fast, but they move together in large groups, and in a very orderly fashion. The bottom line is that different circumstances require different rules. Dan On Sat, Jun 11, 2011 at 3:22 PM, Bob W p...@web-options.com wrote: Er, London is a city too. Do you really believe that because some cyclists break the law all cyclists should be forced into unsafe behaviour? How about if all motorists were forced into unsafe behaviour because some of them break the law? -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT: Cycling in New York
There are lots of things the city is trying ot do. One proposal is to ban all private vehicle from Midtown and to restrict trucks to off-peak hours. Large stretches of Broadway are now pedetrian mall, with tables and chair set up right in the middle of the street: http://photo.net/photodb/photo?photo_id=11070283 Dan On Sat, Jun 11, 2011 at 4:34 PM, Bob W p...@web-options.com wrote: From: pdml-boun...@pdml.net [mailto:pdml-boun...@pdml.net] On Behalf Of Daniel J. Matyola Yes, I do believe that if bikes cause safety problems, all bikes should be force to follow reasonable rules. I have been to London more than once. London may be a city, but it is in England, and the drivers and cyclists drive like Englishmen, not like New Yorkers. London taxis are driven by sane, courteous men and women. New York cab drivers think they are in a demolition derby. Sounds like the drivers are at least as much of a problem as the cyclists. What do you propose to do about them? B London Cyclists seem to value their own lives; some of the cyclists in New York appear to be daring someone to hit them with a car (preferably a limo). Amsterdam has the heaviest bike traffic I have ever seen. The bikes move fast, but they move together in large groups, and in a very orderly fashion. The bottom line is that different circumstances require different rules. Dan On Sat, Jun 11, 2011 at 3:22 PM, Bob W p...@web-options.com wrote: Er, London is a city too. Do you really believe that because some cyclists break the law all cyclists should be forced into unsafe behaviour? How about if all motorists were forced into unsafe behaviour because some of them break the law? -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- Dan Matyola http://www.pentaxphotogallery.com/danieljmatyola -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
RE: OT: Cycling in New York
that sounds like a good idea. Wish they'd do that in London. There are lots of things the city is trying ot do. One proposal is to ban all private vehicle from Midtown and to restrict trucks to off-peak hours. Large stretches of Broadway are now pedetrian mall, with tables and chair set up right in the middle of the street: http://photo.net/photodb/photo?photo_id=11070283 Dan On Sat, Jun 11, 2011 at 4:34 PM, Bob W p...@web-options.com wrote: From: pdml-boun...@pdml.net [mailto:pdml-boun...@pdml.net] On Behalf Of Daniel J. Matyola Yes, I do believe that if bikes cause safety problems, all bikes should be force to follow reasonable rules. I have been to London more than once. London may be a city, but it is in England, and the drivers and cyclists drive like Englishmen, not like New Yorkers. London taxis are driven by sane, courteous men and women. New York cab drivers think they are in a demolition derby. Sounds like the drivers are at least as much of a problem as the cyclists. What do you propose to do about them? B London Cyclists seem to value their own lives; some of the cyclists in New York appear to be daring someone to hit them with a car (preferably a limo). Amsterdam has the heaviest bike traffic I have ever seen. The bikes move fast, but they move together in large groups, and in a very orderly fashion. The bottom line is that different circumstances require different rules. Dan On Sat, Jun 11, 2011 at 3:22 PM, Bob W p...@web-options.com wrote: Er, London is a city too. Do you really believe that because some cyclists break the law all cyclists should be forced into unsafe behaviour? How about if all motorists were forced into unsafe behaviour because some of them break the law? -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- Dan Matyola http://www.pentaxphotogallery.com/danieljmatyola -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT: Cycling in New York
On 11/6/11, Bob W, discombobulated, unleashed: Compulsory cycle lanes make cycling less safe for cyclists, pedestrians and motor traffic, particularly at junctions. What about Nederlands? From what I saw, they even get their own traffic lights at major junctions. Every country road has a separate cycle lane/ footpath either side, lit, gotta be safer to keep cars and cycles apart? -- Cheers, Cotty ___/\__ || (O) | People, Places, Pastiche -- http://www.cottysnaps.com _ -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT: Cycling in New York
Daniel J. Matyola wrote: The problem, Frank, is that the bikes in the traffic lanes DON'T go the speed of traffic; they run through lights and cut in and out and THEY make sudden swoops onto the cross street and back, cutting through pedestrian traffic, scattering tourists in all directions. The bike lanes are relatively new, and they provide a lot of safety to both cyclists and pedestrians. Unfortunately, those who are impatient create a safety hazard. Dan On Sat, Jun 11, 2011 at 2:15 PM, frank theriault knarftheria...@gmail.com wrote: I'd much rather be right in the middle of a car lane, going the speed of traffic where they cars can see me, than stuck in a bike lane, on the periphery, subject to sudden swoops by cars diving into and out of illegal parking spots, subject to car doors being suddenly flung open into my face by disembarking passengers, etc. Second that... Really, in NY there are so many reckless people on bikes you really can't imagine... and on a noisy street if you are a slow moving pedestrian you are in peril frequently.. You can't hear the bikes approaching and they are particularly bold when there is stand still traffic with cars... and many don't realise how scary they are for the old and fragile - whooosh! The bike lanes are useful for , at the very least, if people stay in them warning we who neither drive or ride bikes that a bike might be coming down the lane. But you still have to look _both_ ways. at first I thought it was a bad idea too... but it really is working in my neighborhood. In the best of all possible worlds in Manhattan, all private cars would be banned just busses , necessary business deliveries and bikes and trikes and pedestrians. The holier than thou attitude of some riders in New York and being yelled at by a twenty year old on a bike to get out of the way when I'm crossing the street with the light and he is running it ain't so much fun. ann -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT: Cycling in New York
Bob if you do get here in the fall, you will understand what Dan and I are saying about this... One thing about the cars is that the traffic can be so bad that they are scarcely moving - sometimes at a total standstill so a pedestrian can cross the street without fear :) but the cyclists then weave in and out of the cars and , as I said before, if you are walking you cant hear them and they go so fast if you look in one direction and are clear they might be there in a flash when you look in the other... They even cycle at night without lights or reflector The courteous and safe have bells to jingle and lights so you can see them at night, but there are far to many who are way reckless. Would love the private cars to go too, as I said earlier. ann - frankly scared of 'em Bob W wrote: that sounds like a good idea. Wish they'd do that in London. There are lots of things the city is trying ot do. One proposal is to ban all private vehicle from Midtown and to restrict trucks to off-peak hours. Large stretches of Broadway are now pedetrian mall, with tables and chair set up right in the middle of the street: http://photo.net/photodb/photo?photo_id=11070283 Dan On Sat, Jun 11, 2011 at 4:34 PM, Bob W p...@web-options.com wrote: From: pdml-boun...@pdml.net [mailto:pdml-boun...@pdml.net] On Behalf Of Daniel J. Matyola Yes, I do believe that if bikes cause safety problems, all bikes should be force to follow reasonable rules. I have been to London more than once. London may be a city, but it is in England, and the drivers and cyclists drive like Englishmen, not like New Yorkers. London taxis are driven by sane, courteous men and women. New York cab drivers think they are in a demolition derby. Sounds like the drivers are at least as much of a problem as the cyclists. What do you propose to do about them? B London Cyclists seem to value their own lives; some of the cyclists in New York appear to be daring someone to hit them with a car (preferably a limo). Amsterdam has the heaviest bike traffic I have ever seen. The bikes move fast, but they move together in large groups, and in a very orderly fashion. The bottom line is that different circumstances require different rules. Dan On Sat, Jun 11, 2011 at 3:22 PM, Bob W p...@web-options.com wrote: Er, London is a city too. Do you really believe that because some cyclists break the law all cyclists should be forced into unsafe behaviour? How about if all motorists were forced into unsafe behaviour because some of them break the law? -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- Dan Matyola http://www.pentaxphotogallery.com/danieljmatyola -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
RE: OT: Cycling in New York
We have bike lanes in Brisbane too, often, sensibly, between the parking lane and the traffic lanes. But, far too many cyclists are complete idiots when it comes to sensible use of the roads: my street is one way, with a footpath next to the road, and a two metre wide bike path beyond that: yet I still see a number of cyclists riding the wrong way up the street in the traffic lane. This is particularly dangerous as there is a blind corner just metres from where I live, and most drivers are concentrating too hard on not being hit by traffic coming down the road to spare more than quick glance in case there should be anything coming the wrong way. In the city too, I see bike couriers particularly ignoring one-ways, running red lights, riding across pedestrian islands, weaving through the oncoming traffic which has the green -that's just asking to get hurt, never mind a ticket. Not that drivers are at all blameless or even sensible: red-light running and speeding seem to be on the increase here. Just yesterday a driver did a U-turn in our driveway and blithely went back up the road the wrong way. Another had been waiting a minute or so at a red light and decided that it was too long, so just turned anyway. He was fortunate that he got away with it, as that particular junction is not an easy one for visibility. I may be getting to be a grumpy old man, but when I see some supposedly mature adult cyclist riding his bike through the crowds in a shopping mall, I'm compelled to tell him to get off! John Coyle Brisbane, Australia -Original Message- From: pdml-boun...@pdml.net [mailto:pdml-boun...@pdml.net] On Behalf Of Ann Sanfedele Sent: Sunday, 12 June 2011 2:01 AM To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List Subject: Re: OT: Cycling in New York Daniel J. Matyola wrote: If they aren't required to use the bike lanes in New York, they should be. The traffic, especially in Manhattan, is buy and hazardous, and the conflict between bikes, pedestrians, cars, taxis, buses and trucks can be severe. Dan Great video here about a guy's response to being ticketed for not cycling in the bike lane: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bzE-IMaegzQ Ironically he shouldn't have been ticketed, because it's not a legal requirement to use them. It is or will soon be... if there is a bike lane and it isn't blocked.. The guy that did the video likes the bike lanes he was just pointing out that the bike lanes were often blocked by trucks unloading, people standing in them, etc. (I heard him interviewed on local news station a couple of times) The bike lanes have helped on major streets but not all streets have them so, of course, if there is no lane a bike can still ride on it - but must obey the one way directions, stop signs, speed limit - etc that cars do. That isn't happening all the time. The other day a father with is toddler on the bike with him was going the wrong way on my street and when I was crossing , having looked in the dirction the traffic comes from legally, he shouted watch out I called back you're going the wrong way and he TURNS and shouts back but I called watch out (!) Every time I go out I see bikers going the wrong way in a bike lane, riding on the sidewalk, not riding in the lanes when they are clear, speeding, not stopping at lights... and they aren't getting ticketed for that often enough. Mostly it has been a great help to pedestrian safety, tho. .. especially the parked cars not being right on the curb ann -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT: Cycling in New York
On Sat, Jun 11, 2011 at 10:13 PM, John Coyle jco...@iinet.net.au wrote: We have bike lanes in Brisbane too, often, sensibly, between the parking lane and the traffic lanes. Like this? https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/RTTN7a8MM_Y6qZwvxy4PD7E9gr-o3kOAFcuAuy7-Ync?feat=directlink It's called a door zone and it's dangerous. Here's why: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Door_zone I refuse to ride in door zones, giving myself at least 4 or 5 feet between me and parked cars. If that means I'm in your way, too bad. Your being late takes a back seat to my safety. That photo in the first link is a new cycle lane, put there within the last few months. Were I to ride on that road I'd be to the left of the bike lane. The truth, however, is that particular road carries a tremendous amount of traffic. During rush hour, it's nearly a parking lot. When that photo was taken cars were traveling at nearly 30mph. Throw in cell phone texting soccer moms trying to parallel park, and it's probably one of those most dangerous roads around here for cyclists. The League of American Bicyclists put their seal of approval on it. Go figure. -- Scott Loveless http://www.twosixteen.com/fivetoedsloth/ __o _'\,_ (*)/ (*) -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT: Cycling in New York
Scott Loveless wrote: On Sat, Jun 11, 2011 at 10:13 PM, John Coyle jco...@iinet.net.au wrote: We have bike lanes in Brisbane too, often, sensibly, between the parking lane and the traffic lanes. Like this? https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/RTTN7a8MM_Y6qZwvxy4PD7E9gr-o3kOAFcuAuy7-Ync?feat=directlink It's called a door zone and it's dangerous. Here's why: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Door_zone I refuse to ride in door zones, giving myself at least 4 or 5 feet between me and parked cars. If that means I'm in your way, too bad. Your being late takes a back seat to my safety. That photo in the first link is a new cycle lane, put there within the last few months. Were I to ride on that road I'd be to the left of the bike lane. The truth, however, is that particular road carries a tremendous amount of traffic. During rush hour, it's nearly a parking lot. When that photo was taken cars were traveling at nearly 30mph. Throw in cell phone texting soccer moms trying to parallel park, and it's probably one of those most dangerous roads around here for cyclists. The League of American Bicyclists put their seal of approval on it. Go figure. Geez that does look dangerous! ... here it is traffic, parking (and waiting to cross) , bike lane, sidewalk. Maybe I should do a vid of second ave. In my neighborhood I've seen people on -moving bikes- texting! .. ann -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
OT: Cycling in New York
Great video here about a guy's response to being ticketed for not cycling in the bike lane: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bzE-IMaegzQ Ironically he shouldn't have been ticketed, because it's not a legal requirement to use them. B -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT: Cycling in New York
On Fri, Jun 10, 2011 at 1:54 PM, Bob W p...@web-options.com wrote: Great video here about a guy's response to being ticketed for not cycling in the bike lane: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bzE-IMaegzQ Ironically he shouldn't have been ticketed, because it's not a legal requirement to use them. I don't know what the law is in New York City, but certainly here in Toronto, we aren't ~required~ to use them. I've had motorists yell at me for not riding in one; my attempts to explain to them the difference between a right and an obligation usually fall on deaf ears. I feel for this guy. Thanks for posting. cheers, frank -- Sharpness is a bourgeois concept. -Henri Cartier-Bresson -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT: Cycling in New York
On 2011-06-10 14:06, frank theriault wrote: my attempts to explain to them the difference between a right and an obligation usually fall on deaf ears. So, frank, do you realize that you have a death wish, or is it subconscious? -- Thanks, DougF (KG4LMZ) -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
