Re: OT: Diesels

[Zos Xavius]

It is probably for the best that diesels never caught on in America
for several reasons. Can you imagine the increased pollution?

On Sun, Dec 11, 2016 at 4:00 PM, Paul Stenquist  wrote:
> Clouseau would have been wrong. :-)
>
> Paul via phone
>
>> On Dec 11, 2016, at 3:54 PM, Jostein  wrote:
>>
>> Well as Clouseau would have said, not anymeur. :-)
>> Jostein
>>
>> Den 11.12.2016 21.51, skrev Paul Stenquist:
>>> U.S. Diesel standards were much stricter than Europe's for decades. I 
>>> worked with Mercedes and they were troubled by the challenge.but they met 
>>> it. Europe was more or less pulled along.
>>>
>>> Paul via phone
>>>
 On Dec 11, 2016, at 3:46 PM, Jostein  wrote:

 Actually, Paul;
 The standars for emissions have been phased in gradually, in "tiers". 
 There's been a strong push from the car mfgs, starting at least a decade 
 ago, to make authorities in both the EU, USA, Japan and others harmonise 
 the timing of the phase-in.
 There's no more "banning" in the US than elsewhere, so sales drops are 
 more likely due to other factors such as customer preference or 
 market-regulating import tariffs.

 Jostein

 Den 11.12.2016 21.33, skrev Paul Stenquist:
> The U.S. Diesel particulate and NOx standards effectively banned them 
> here.
> Mercedes , BMW and GM have been able to meet the standards with urea
> injection and filters, but the tuning was somewhat crippling.
> Volkswagen and Audi got around it by cheating. Diesels are all but
> deadfor cars in the U.S. still viable for light trucks.
>
> Paul via phone
>
>> On Dec 11, 2016, at 3:00 PM, Godfrey DiGiorgi  wrote:
>>
>> And in various European cities, there's a move to ban ALL diesel engined 
>> devices from the city .. permanently.
>>
>> G
>>
>>
>>> On Dec 11, 2016, at 8:31 AM, Bipin Gupta  wrote:
>>>
>>> The trend here in India is for Diesel Cars as Diesel Fuel is 30%
>>> Cheaper than Petrol.
>>> And Trucks, Busses, Tractors, Trains. Generators etc were always Diesel.
>>>
>>> What a waste in transporting just one chap in one vehicle. Our roads
>>> are chock a block with
>>> traffic moving at snails pace during the Office Commute Hours.
>>>
>>> In Delhi, India's Capital, ODD & Even numbered cars ply on alternate
>>> days, such are the levels
>>> of pollution, smog & fog so as to disrupt Flights, Trains & Highway 
>>> traffic.
>>
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Re: OT: Diesels

[Paul Stenquist]

Clouseau would have been wrong. :-)

Paul via phone

> On Dec 11, 2016, at 3:54 PM, Jostein  wrote:
> 
> Well as Clouseau would have said, not anymeur. :-)
> Jostein
> 
> Den 11.12.2016 21.51, skrev Paul Stenquist:
>> U.S. Diesel standards were much stricter than Europe's for decades. I worked 
>> with Mercedes and they were troubled by the challenge.but they met it. 
>> Europe was more or less pulled along.
>> 
>> Paul via phone
>> 
>>> On Dec 11, 2016, at 3:46 PM, Jostein  wrote:
>>> 
>>> Actually, Paul;
>>> The standars for emissions have been phased in gradually, in "tiers". 
>>> There's been a strong push from the car mfgs, starting at least a decade 
>>> ago, to make authorities in both the EU, USA, Japan and others harmonise 
>>> the timing of the phase-in.
>>> There's no more "banning" in the US than elsewhere, so sales drops are more 
>>> likely due to other factors such as customer preference or 
>>> market-regulating import tariffs.
>>> 
>>> Jostein
>>> 
>>> Den 11.12.2016 21.33, skrev Paul Stenquist:
 The U.S. Diesel particulate and NOx standards effectively banned them here.
 Mercedes , BMW and GM have been able to meet the standards with urea
 injection and filters, but the tuning was somewhat crippling.
 Volkswagen and Audi got around it by cheating. Diesels are all but
 deadfor cars in the U.S. still viable for light trucks.
 
 Paul via phone
 
> On Dec 11, 2016, at 3:00 PM, Godfrey DiGiorgi  wrote:
> 
> And in various European cities, there's a move to ban ALL diesel engined 
> devices from the city .. permanently.
> 
> G
> 
> 
>> On Dec 11, 2016, at 8:31 AM, Bipin Gupta  wrote:
>> 
>> The trend here in India is for Diesel Cars as Diesel Fuel is 30%
>> Cheaper than Petrol.
>> And Trucks, Busses, Tractors, Trains. Generators etc were always Diesel.
>> 
>> What a waste in transporting just one chap in one vehicle. Our roads
>> are chock a block with
>> traffic moving at snails pace during the Office Commute Hours.
>> 
>> In Delhi, India's Capital, ODD & Even numbered cars ply on alternate
>> days, such are the levels
>> of pollution, smog & fog so as to disrupt Flights, Trains & Highway 
>> traffic.
> 
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Re: OT: Diesels

[Jostein]

Well as Clouseau would have said, not anymeur. :-)
Jostein

Den 11.12.2016 21.51, skrev Paul Stenquist:

U.S. Diesel standards were much stricter than Europe's for decades. I worked 
with Mercedes and they were troubled by the challenge.but they met it. Europe 
was more or less pulled along.

Paul via phone


On Dec 11, 2016, at 3:46 PM, Jostein  wrote:

Actually, Paul;
The standars for emissions have been phased in gradually, in "tiers". There's 
been a strong push from the car mfgs, starting at least a decade ago, to make authorities 
in both the EU, USA, Japan and others harmonise the timing of the phase-in.
There's no more "banning" in the US than elsewhere, so sales drops are more 
likely due to other factors such as customer preference or market-regulating import 
tariffs.

Jostein

Den 11.12.2016 21.33, skrev Paul Stenquist:

The U.S. Diesel particulate and NOx standards effectively banned them here.
Mercedes , BMW and GM have been able to meet the standards with urea
injection and filters, but the tuning was somewhat crippling.
Volkswagen and Audi got around it by cheating. Diesels are all but
deadfor cars in the U.S. still viable for light trucks.

Paul via phone


On Dec 11, 2016, at 3:00 PM, Godfrey DiGiorgi  wrote:

And in various European cities, there's a move to ban ALL diesel engined 
devices from the city .. permanently.

G



On Dec 11, 2016, at 8:31 AM, Bipin Gupta  wrote:

The trend here in India is for Diesel Cars as Diesel Fuel is 30%
Cheaper than Petrol.
And Trucks, Busses, Tractors, Trains. Generators etc were always Diesel.

What a waste in transporting just one chap in one vehicle. Our roads
are chock a block with
traffic moving at snails pace during the Office Commute Hours.

In Delhi, India's Capital, ODD & Even numbered cars ply on alternate
days, such are the levels
of pollution, smog & fog so as to disrupt Flights, Trains & Highway traffic.


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Re: OT: Diesels

[Jostein]

Bipin,
You should cheer your local government to fast-track emission 
regulations. According to Wikipedia it seems India is a decade behind 
Europe. Sounds like you really need to, with your levels of pollution. 
The weather during the winter monsoon doesn't seem to help things either.

Jostein

Den 11.12.2016 17.31, skrev Bipin Gupta:

The trend here in India is for Diesel Cars as Diesel Fuel is 30%
Cheaper than Petrol.
And Trucks, Busses, Tractors, Trains. Generators etc were always Diesel.

What a waste in transporting just one chap in one vehicle. Our roads
are chock a block with
traffic moving at snails pace during the Office Commute Hours.

In Delhi, India's Capital, ODD & Even numbered cars ply on alternate
days, such are the levels
of pollution, smog & fog so as to disrupt Flights, Trains & Highway traffic.

God Bless Mother Earth.

Regards.
Bipin.



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Re: OT: Diesels

[Bill]

Some clarification

The vehicle is either being driven, or the block heater is plugged in, 
and yes, I would be using winter weight fuel. I've pretty much 
determined from the Titan forum that I have a faulty truck.


Thanks all

bill

On 12/11/2016 2:28 PM, Jostein Øksne wrote:

I would guess that Canadian fuel stations change winter diesel and summer 
diesel in their tanks according to public regulation, just like in the Nordic 
countries.
Jostein

Den 11. desember 2016 02.34.05 CET, skrev mike wilson :

On 10 December 2016 at 15:35 Bill 

wrote:



A couple of months ago I spoiled myself in a major way and bought one

of

the new Nissan Titan diesel trucks, equipped with a 5 liter turbo
Cummins engine. This is my first foray into the world of diesel

engines.

I expect there are a few people on the list that have more experience



with the things.
My questions all revolve around cold weather starting.
What is considered cold for a Diesel?


Too many variables for that to have an easy answer. There are winter
and summer
grades of fuel.  If there aren't many diesels around there, you could
have
picked up a tank of summer grade from a slow moving supplier.


Should plugging in the block heater make a difference?


Yes.  There are variations in block heaters, too.  Maybe your vehicle
has one
designed for higher temps than yours, fitted to keep the production
line
running.  Is it plugged in all night?


Can glow plugs be flakey?


Yes but not until you've done a considerable mileage.  I'd be more
inclined to
suspect the power feed, or even the software control of them in such a
new
vehicle.



It's not all that cold here right now. Anything below about -16ºC is

an

issue for this truck. This morning was -27ºC, and it took multiple
attempts to get it running. Starting is completely automatic, the

only

control the driver has in this regard is a PHD button that initiates

the

start cycle. After that, it's up to the truck.
I like the truck, but if I need to go out and start it and warm it up



every 5-6 hours during the cold months, it is not going to be a

pleasant

vehicle to own.  They say don't idle it for extended periods because

of

the particulate filters, and if it is idled to much, it goes into
perpetual regeneration of the filter, which means it's dumping raw

fuel

into the exhaust to burn off the soot. This drops gas mileage to

about

60l/100km. One it is running, it is a joy to drive.


Dead right about the filters.  DPF equipped vehicles need to be run on
longer
journeys, mostly, with regular vigorous use to keep the filters working
well.





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Re: OT: Diesels

[Paul Stenquist]

U.S. Diesel standards were much stricter than Europe's for decades. I worked 
with Mercedes and they were troubled by the challenge.but they met it. Europe 
was more or less pulled along.

Paul via phone

> On Dec 11, 2016, at 3:46 PM, Jostein  wrote:
> 
> Actually, Paul;
> The standars for emissions have been phased in gradually, in "tiers". There's 
> been a strong push from the car mfgs, starting at least a decade ago, to make 
> authorities in both the EU, USA, Japan and others harmonise the timing of the 
> phase-in.
> There's no more "banning" in the US than elsewhere, so sales drops are more 
> likely due to other factors such as customer preference or market-regulating 
> import tariffs.
> 
> Jostein
> 
> Den 11.12.2016 21.33, skrev Paul Stenquist:
>> The U.S. Diesel particulate and NOx standards effectively banned them here.
> > Mercedes , BMW and GM have been able to meet the standards with urea
> > injection and filters, but the tuning was somewhat crippling.
> > Volkswagen and Audi got around it by cheating. Diesels are all but
>> deadfor cars in the U.S. still viable for light trucks.
>> 
>> Paul via phone
>> 
>>> On Dec 11, 2016, at 3:00 PM, Godfrey DiGiorgi  wrote:
>>> 
>>> And in various European cities, there's a move to ban ALL diesel engined 
>>> devices from the city .. permanently.
>>> 
>>> G
>>> 
>>> 
 On Dec 11, 2016, at 8:31 AM, Bipin Gupta  wrote:
 
 The trend here in India is for Diesel Cars as Diesel Fuel is 30%
 Cheaper than Petrol.
 And Trucks, Busses, Tractors, Trains. Generators etc were always Diesel.
 
 What a waste in transporting just one chap in one vehicle. Our roads
 are chock a block with
 traffic moving at snails pace during the Office Commute Hours.
 
 In Delhi, India's Capital, ODD & Even numbered cars ply on alternate
 days, such are the levels
 of pollution, smog & fog so as to disrupt Flights, Trains & Highway 
 traffic.
>>> 
>>> --
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>>> to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and 
>>> follow the directions.
>> 
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Re: OT: Diesels

[Jostein]

Actually, Paul;
The standars for emissions have been phased in gradually, in "tiers". 
There's been a strong push from the car mfgs, starting at least a decade 
ago, to make authorities in both the EU, USA, Japan and others harmonise 
the timing of the phase-in.
There's no more "banning" in the US than elsewhere, so sales drops are 
more likely due to other factors such as customer preference or 
market-regulating import tariffs.


Jostein

Den 11.12.2016 21.33, skrev Paul Stenquist:

The U.S. Diesel particulate and NOx standards effectively banned them here.

> Mercedes , BMW and GM have been able to meet the standards with urea
> injection and filters, but the tuning was somewhat crippling.
> Volkswagen and Audi got around it by cheating. Diesels are all but

deadfor cars in the U.S. still viable for light trucks.

Paul via phone


On Dec 11, 2016, at 3:00 PM, Godfrey DiGiorgi  wrote:

And in various European cities, there's a move to ban ALL diesel engined 
devices from the city .. permanently.

G



On Dec 11, 2016, at 8:31 AM, Bipin Gupta  wrote:

The trend here in India is for Diesel Cars as Diesel Fuel is 30%
Cheaper than Petrol.
And Trucks, Busses, Tractors, Trains. Generators etc were always Diesel.

What a waste in transporting just one chap in one vehicle. Our roads
are chock a block with
traffic moving at snails pace during the Office Commute Hours.

In Delhi, India's Capital, ODD & Even numbered cars ply on alternate
days, such are the levels
of pollution, smog & fog so as to disrupt Flights, Trains & Highway traffic.


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Re: OT: Diesels

[Paul Stenquist]

The U.S. Diesel particulate and NOx standards effectively banned them here. 
Mercedes , BMW and GM have been able to meet the standards with urea injection 
and filters, but the tuning was somewhat crippling. Volkswagen and Audi got 
around it by cheating. Diesels are all but dead for cars in the U.S. still 
viable for light trucks.

Paul via phone

> On Dec 11, 2016, at 3:00 PM, Godfrey DiGiorgi  wrote:
> 
> And in various European cities, there's a move to ban ALL diesel engined 
> devices from the city .. permanently. 
> 
> G
> 
> 
>> On Dec 11, 2016, at 8:31 AM, Bipin Gupta  wrote:
>> 
>> The trend here in India is for Diesel Cars as Diesel Fuel is 30%
>> Cheaper than Petrol.
>> And Trucks, Busses, Tractors, Trains. Generators etc were always Diesel.
>> 
>> What a waste in transporting just one chap in one vehicle. Our roads
>> are chock a block with
>> traffic moving at snails pace during the Office Commute Hours.
>> 
>> In Delhi, India's Capital, ODD & Even numbered cars ply on alternate
>> days, such are the levels
>> of pollution, smog & fog so as to disrupt Flights, Trains & Highway traffic.
> 
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Re: OT: Diesels

[Jostein Øksne]

I would guess that Canadian fuel stations change winter diesel and summer 
diesel in their tanks according to public regulation, just like in the Nordic 
countries. 
Jostein 

Den 11. desember 2016 02.34.05 CET, skrev mike wilson :
>> On 10 December 2016 at 15:35 Bill 
>wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> A couple of months ago I spoiled myself in a major way and bought one
>of 
>> the new Nissan Titan diesel trucks, equipped with a 5 liter turbo 
>> Cummins engine. This is my first foray into the world of diesel
>engines. 
>> I expect there are a few people on the list that have more experience
>
>> with the things.
>> My questions all revolve around cold weather starting.
>> What is considered cold for a Diesel?
>
>Too many variables for that to have an easy answer. There are winter
>and summer
>grades of fuel.  If there aren't many diesels around there, you could
>have
>picked up a tank of summer grade from a slow moving supplier.
>
>> Should plugging in the block heater make a difference?
>
>Yes.  There are variations in block heaters, too.  Maybe your vehicle
>has one
>designed for higher temps than yours, fitted to keep the production
>line
>running.  Is it plugged in all night?
>
>> Can glow plugs be flakey?
>
>Yes but not until you've done a considerable mileage.  I'd be more
>inclined to
>suspect the power feed, or even the software control of them in such a
>new
>vehicle.
>
>> 
>> It's not all that cold here right now. Anything below about -16ºC is
>an 
>> issue for this truck. This morning was -27ºC, and it took multiple 
>> attempts to get it running. Starting is completely automatic, the
>only 
>> control the driver has in this regard is a PHD button that initiates
>the 
>> start cycle. After that, it's up to the truck.
>> I like the truck, but if I need to go out and start it and warm it up
>
>> every 5-6 hours during the cold months, it is not going to be a
>pleasant 
>> vehicle to own.  They say don't idle it for extended periods because
>of 
>> the particulate filters, and if it is idled to much, it goes into 
>> perpetual regeneration of the filter, which means it's dumping raw
>fuel 
>> into the exhaust to burn off the soot. This drops gas mileage to
>about 
>> 60l/100km. One it is running, it is a joy to drive.
>
>Dead right about the filters.  DPF equipped vehicles need to be run on
>longer
>journeys, mostly, with regular vigorous use to keep the filters working
>well.

-- 
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Re: OT: Diesels

[Jostein]

Bill,
A block heater is a good idea anyhow. A pre-heated engine use less fuel 
than a cold engine, and the interior heater will deliver warm air 
sooner. :-)


Jostein

Den 11.12.2016 16.47, skrev mike wilson:

On 11 December 2016 at 12:32 David J Brooks  wrote:


On Sat, Dec 10, 2016 at 10:35 AM, Bill  wrote:


My questions all revolve around cold weather starting.
What is considered cold for a Diesel?


Having used diesel buses for 9 years  answer is, it varies on the
engine. I found Internationals and Cat engines would start in -15 or
so with out trouble, Mercedes engines had to be helped along. Older
Internationals needed to be plugeed in around -5 or so.


Should plugging in the block heater make a difference?

Yes plug it in.


Can glow plugs be flakey?

Yes they can be flaky, our rule of thub was to cycle the glow plugs at
least 3-4 times before attempting to start iyt when it got to -5 or so
with out a plug in. Yes Wabasto heaters in the newer Internationals
and Thomas built buses are a god send but they break down a lot. I ran
mine off a timer set 30 min before i arrived at the bus.


Some Webastos have the electronic controller built into the case, above the
combustion chamber.  Guess what happens?  Yes, "frying tonight".  Long term
answer is to remove said controller to a cooler place.  Actually it has to be a
new controller, as they are "potted" and effectively unrepairable.

Does knowing that make me a wonk?



Dave



If there are any diesel wonks on the forum, your thoughts would be
appreciated.




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Re: OT: Diesels

[Godfrey DiGiorgi]

And in various European cities, there's a move to ban ALL diesel engined 
devices from the city .. permanently. 

G


> On Dec 11, 2016, at 8:31 AM, Bipin Gupta  wrote:
> 
> The trend here in India is for Diesel Cars as Diesel Fuel is 30%
> Cheaper than Petrol.
> And Trucks, Busses, Tractors, Trains. Generators etc were always Diesel.
> 
> What a waste in transporting just one chap in one vehicle. Our roads
> are chock a block with
> traffic moving at snails pace during the Office Commute Hours.
> 
> In Delhi, India's Capital, ODD & Even numbered cars ply on alternate
> days, such are the levels
> of pollution, smog & fog so as to disrupt Flights, Trains & Highway traffic.

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Re: OT: Diesels

[mike wilson]

> On 11 December 2016 at 12:32 David J Brooks  wrote:
> 
> 
> On Sat, Dec 10, 2016 at 10:35 AM, Bill  wrote:
> 
> > My questions all revolve around cold weather starting.
> > What is considered cold for a Diesel?
> 
> Having used diesel buses for 9 years  answer is, it varies on the
> engine. I found Internationals and Cat engines would start in -15 or
> so with out trouble, Mercedes engines had to be helped along. Older
> Internationals needed to be plugeed in around -5 or so.
> 
> > Should plugging in the block heater make a difference?
> Yes plug it in.
> 
> > Can glow plugs be flakey?
> Yes they can be flaky, our rule of thub was to cycle the glow plugs at
> least 3-4 times before attempting to start iyt when it got to -5 or so
> with out a plug in. Yes Wabasto heaters in the newer Internationals
> and Thomas built buses are a god send but they break down a lot. I ran
> mine off a timer set 30 min before i arrived at the bus.

Some Webastos have the electronic controller built into the case, above the
combustion chamber.  Guess what happens?  Yes, "frying tonight".  Long term
answer is to remove said controller to a cooler place.  Actually it has to be a
new controller, as they are "potted" and effectively unrepairable.

Does knowing that make me a wonk?

> 
> Dave
> 
> >
> > If there are any diesel wonks on the forum, your thoughts would be
> > appreciated.

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Re: OT: Diesels

[David J Brooks]

On Sat, Dec 10, 2016 at 10:35 AM, Bill  wrote:

> My questions all revolve around cold weather starting.
> What is considered cold for a Diesel?

Having used diesel buses for 9 years  answer is, it varies on the
engine. I found Internationals and Cat engines would start in -15 or
so with out trouble, Mercedes engines had to be helped along. Older
Internationals needed to be plugeed in around -5 or so.

> Should plugging in the block heater make a difference?
Yes plug it in.

> Can glow plugs be flakey?
Yes they can be flaky, our rule of thub was to cycle the glow plugs at
least 3-4 times before attempting to start iyt when it got to -5 or so
with out a plug in. Yes Wabasto heaters in the newer Internationals
and Thomas built buses are a god send but they break down a lot. I ran
mine off a timer set 30 min before i arrived at the bus.

Dave

>
> If there are any diesel wonks on the forum, your thoughts would be
> appreciated.
>
> thanks
>
> bill
>
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Re: OT: Diesels

[John]

On 12/10/2016 12:01 PM, Steve Cottrell wrote:

On 10/12/16, Ralf R Radermacher, discombobulated, unleashed:


Later generations will look at us and our diesel cars like we do at the
Middle Ages when people threw the content their chamber pots out into
the street.

European cities are so polluted by this diesel pest that we're having an
alarming rate of premature deaths through NOx and soot.

We should have a law requiring that diesel cars have the exhaust led to
the front, so that their drivers see what they're doing to all of us!


Actually I agree with you Ralf.

The problem is that back in the 1980s and 1990s, here in the UK diesel
was pushed as the 'cleaner' fuel and hence was cheaper in price than
petrol. the government promoted diesel heavily and the car manufacturers
followed suit by making more of them.

Now we are seeing the true legacy.

It all boils down from the oil lobby and the car makers, simple as that.
Without the need to pander to oil-rich nations, we would all have been
driving battery, even hydrogen powered cars years ago. Instead we line
the pockets of certain nations who shall remain nameless but have lots
of sand and camels.

I need a big utility vehicle for work, but if I had a choice of a less
polluting method of propulsion, I would jump at it.



Around here diesel was about 10% cheaper than regular gasoline up until
2003. Then it got a LOT more expensive; about 30% more than regular.

Since gas prices dropped last year the difference has fallen to where
diesel is only about 10% more than regular gas.

When I was shopping for a car in 2009, I looked at switching to diesel,
but soon figured I'd have to find one that got 50+ MPG to break even on
fuel cost.

The VW Rabbit Diesel Pickup I had before I had to go overseas got close
to that, but the best I could find in 2009 best was around 40 MPG.

Wish I'd kept the Rabbit.


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Re: OT: Diesels

[Subash Jeyan]

here in india too diesel is about 18-20 per cent cheaper than petrol
and though diesel cars cost a little more initially, they are cheaper in
the long run and so sell quite a bit more. given that our cities were
not built for cars and that pollution/green laws are hardly enforced,
it is an environmental disaster that is already unfolding. 

some cities have banned diesel engines older than ten years. new delhi,
one of the worst affected cities, banned the sale of cars with diesel
engines bigger than 2000cc but mercedes benz went to court recently and
got the ban lifted though the court asked that a 1% (of the cost of the
car) green tax be levied on sale of such cars. i personally believe that
it is time all cars for a personal use are taxed out of the roads and
the government build a well-thought out network of public
transportation. but in a culture where cars are equated with
'development' i don't think that's going to happen anytime soon.  

~subash

On Sat, 10 Dec 2016 19:28:51 +
Bob W-PDML  wrote:

> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-38274792
> 
> Time to get rid of all of them from cities, diesel or otherwise
> 
> On 10 Dec 2016, at 16:40, Ralf R Radermacher
> > wrote:
> 
> Am 10.12.16 um 16:35 schrieb Bill:
> A couple of months ago I spoiled myself in a major way and bought one
> of the new Nissan Titan diesel trucks, equipped with a 5 liter turbo
> Cummins engine.
> 
> Later generations will look at us and our diesel cars like we do at
> the Middle Ages when people threw the content their chamber pots out
> into the street.
> 
> European cities are so polluted by this diesel pest that we're having
> an alarming rate of premature deaths through NOx and soot.
> 
> We should have a law requiring that diesel cars have the exhaust led
> to the front, so that their drivers see what they're doing to all of
> us!
> 
> Ralf
> 


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Re: OT: Diesels

[John]

Sounds to me like you have reason enough to build a heated garage.

On 12/10/2016 10:35 AM, Bill wrote:

A couple of months ago I spoiled myself in a major way and bought one of
the new Nissan Titan diesel trucks, equipped with a 5 liter turbo
Cummins engine. This is my first foray into the world of diesel engines.
I expect there are a few people on the list that have more experience
with the things.
My questions all revolve around cold weather starting.
What is considered cold for a Diesel?
Should plugging in the block heater make a difference?
Can glow plugs be flakey?

It's not all that cold here right now. Anything below about -16ºC is an
issue for this truck. This morning was -27ºC, and it took multiple
attempts to get it running. Starting is completely automatic, the only
control the driver has in this regard is a PHD button that initiates the
start cycle. After that, it's up to the truck.
I like the truck, but if I need to go out and start it and warm it up
every 5-6 hours during the cold months, it is not going to be a pleasant
vehicle to own.  They say don't idle it for extended periods because of
the particulate filters, and if it is idled to much, it goes into
perpetual regeneration of the filter, which means it's dumping raw fuel
into the exhaust to burn off the soot. This drops gas mileage to about
60l/100km. One it is running, it is a joy to drive.

If there are any diesel wonks on the forum, your thoughts would be
appreciated.

thanks

bill



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Re: OT: Diesels

[mike wilson]

> On 10 December 2016 at 15:35 Bill  wrote:
> 
> 
> A couple of months ago I spoiled myself in a major way and bought one of 
> the new Nissan Titan diesel trucks, equipped with a 5 liter turbo 
> Cummins engine. This is my first foray into the world of diesel engines. 
> I expect there are a few people on the list that have more experience 
> with the things.
> My questions all revolve around cold weather starting.
> What is considered cold for a Diesel?

Too many variables for that to have an easy answer. There are winter and summer
grades of fuel.  If there aren't many diesels around there, you could have
picked up a tank of summer grade from a slow moving supplier.

> Should plugging in the block heater make a difference?

Yes.  There are variations in block heaters, too.  Maybe your vehicle has one
designed for higher temps than yours, fitted to keep the production line
running.  Is it plugged in all night?

> Can glow plugs be flakey?

Yes but not until you've done a considerable mileage.  I'd be more inclined to
suspect the power feed, or even the software control of them in such a new
vehicle.

> 
> It's not all that cold here right now. Anything below about -16ºC is an 
> issue for this truck. This morning was -27ºC, and it took multiple 
> attempts to get it running. Starting is completely automatic, the only 
> control the driver has in this regard is a PHD button that initiates the 
> start cycle. After that, it's up to the truck.
> I like the truck, but if I need to go out and start it and warm it up 
> every 5-6 hours during the cold months, it is not going to be a pleasant 
> vehicle to own.  They say don't idle it for extended periods because of 
> the particulate filters, and if it is idled to much, it goes into 
> perpetual regeneration of the filter, which means it's dumping raw fuel 
> into the exhaust to burn off the soot. This drops gas mileage to about 
> 60l/100km. One it is running, it is a joy to drive.

Dead right about the filters.  DPF equipped vehicles need to be run on longer
journeys, mostly, with regular vigorous use to keep the filters working well.

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Re: OT: Diesels

[Stanley Halpin]

My previous renter in our small house next door had a big diesel pickup truck 
(Dodge Ram maybe) used in his landscaping work. He always plugged his block 
heater in, never seemed to have a problem starting even with 0°F temperatures. 
On the other hand, the extension cord was a messy eyesore that I admonished him 
about a few times.

stan

> On Dec 10, 2016, at 10:35 AM, Bill  wrote:
> 
> A couple of months ago I spoiled myself in a major way and bought one of the 
> new Nissan Titan diesel trucks, equipped with a 5 liter turbo Cummins engine. 
> This is my first foray into the world of diesel engines. I expect there are a 
> few people on the list that have more experience with the things.
> My questions all revolve around cold weather starting.
> What is considered cold for a Diesel?
> Should plugging in the block heater make a difference?
> Can glow plugs be flakey?
> 
> It's not all that cold here right now. Anything below about -16ºC is an issue 
> for this truck. This morning was -27ºC, and it took multiple attempts to get 
> it running. Starting is completely automatic, the only control the driver has 
> in this regard is a PHD button that initiates the start cycle. After that, 
> it's up to the truck.
> I like the truck, but if I need to go out and start it and warm it up every 
> 5-6 hours during the cold months, it is not going to be a pleasant vehicle to 
> own.  They say don't idle it for extended periods because of the particulate 
> filters, and if it is idled to much, it goes into perpetual regeneration of 
> the filter, which means it's dumping raw fuel into the exhaust to burn off 
> the soot. This drops gas mileage to about 60l/100km. One it is running, it is 
> a joy to drive.
> 
> If there are any diesel wonks on the forum, your thoughts would be 
> appreciated.
> 
> thanks
> 
> bill
> 
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Re: OT: Diesels

[Stanley Halpin]

If only everyone would adopt clean-running diesel technology like that used by 
VW…

stan

> On Dec 10, 2016, at 2:39 PM, Malcolm Smith  wrote:
> 
> Steve Cottrell wrote:
> 
> Actually I agree with you Ralf.
> 
> The problem is that back in the 1980s and 1990s, here in the UK diesel was
> pushed as the 'cleaner' fuel and hence was cheaper in price than petrol. the
> government promoted diesel heavily and the car manufacturers followed suit
> by making more of them.
> 
> Now we are seeing the true legacy.
> 
> It all boils down from the oil lobby and the car makers, simple as that.
> Without the need to pander to oil-rich nations, we would all have been
> driving battery, even hydrogen powered cars years ago. Instead we line the
> pockets of certain nations who shall remain nameless but have lots of sand
> and camels.
> 
> I need a big utility vehicle for work, but if I had a choice of a less
> polluting method of propulsion, I would jump at it.
> ++
> 
> Some 20+ years ago, I was involved with retro fitting 'green' diesel engines
> in a large fleet, along with new exhaust systems which made them quieter and
> had increased particulant traps. You'd have probably seen them on the
> streets of London, as they were large and red. Now in 2016, there are hybrid
> diesel electrics and hydrogen vehicles being rolled out. 
> 
> On a personal level, it's difficult to find a replacement for my Land Rover.
> I need something which takes up to 9 people fairly often, tows a horse box
> and is generally good with unmade roads in poor weather. I had no choice
> other than to buy a diesel version, as they phased the V8 petrol out as an
> option long ago, and having in the past had one, I couldn't live with 12 MPG
> as an average - go off road and that looks good. I get twice that with the
> diesel. I'd like, in a few years' time a Range Rover again, when I'll be
> able to manage with less seating, but it's really too plush and will get
> scratched in the lanes pulling into gaps in narrow lanes. I have a really
> good dealer I've dealt with for 20+ years, and have no intention of swapping
> makes. I'd also like a petrol version, but that will come down to
> economy/how much I then use it, which may actually be more.
> 
> I also may be forced into buying a petrol version, depending how London puts
> in place 'ultra-low emission' boundaries for diesel vehicles in the not too
> distant future. 
> 
> Malcolm
> 
> 
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Re: OT: Diesels

[Ralf R Radermacher]

Am 10.12.16 um 18:01 schrieb Steve Cottrell:


The problem is that back in the 1980s and 1990s, here in the UK diesel
was pushed as the 'cleaner' fuel and hence was cheaper in price than
petrol. the government promoted diesel heavily and the car manufacturers
followed suit by making more of them.


For our friends across the pond: in most of Continental Europe, diesel 
ist still considerably cheaper than petrol because of much lower taxes. 
As a consequence, we have around 40 to over 60 percent (France) of 
diesel cars on our roads. Private cars, that is, not counting busses or 
lorries.


Then again, if price was the only criterium, everyone over here would be 
running on LPG - current prices are between 35 (Belgium) and just over 
60 cents per liter.


Here in Germany, to my knowledge the last country without any speed 
limit on its motorways, the diesel aficionados have yet another 
argument: torque. They consider it a part of their human rights to 
experience the kick of 700 Nm pressing them into their seat when they 
floor the accelerator of their turbocharged Audi or BMW diesel on 
entering the motorway, pulling right across to the left-most lane within 
seconds.


Ralf

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RE: OT: Diesels

[Malcolm Smith]

Steve Cottrell wrote:

Actually I agree with you Ralf.

The problem is that back in the 1980s and 1990s, here in the UK diesel was
pushed as the 'cleaner' fuel and hence was cheaper in price than petrol. the
government promoted diesel heavily and the car manufacturers followed suit
by making more of them.

Now we are seeing the true legacy.

It all boils down from the oil lobby and the car makers, simple as that.
Without the need to pander to oil-rich nations, we would all have been
driving battery, even hydrogen powered cars years ago. Instead we line the
pockets of certain nations who shall remain nameless but have lots of sand
and camels.

I need a big utility vehicle for work, but if I had a choice of a less
polluting method of propulsion, I would jump at it.
++

Some 20+ years ago, I was involved with retro fitting 'green' diesel engines
in a large fleet, along with new exhaust systems which made them quieter and
had increased particulant traps. You'd have probably seen them on the
streets of London, as they were large and red. Now in 2016, there are hybrid
diesel electrics and hydrogen vehicles being rolled out. 

On a personal level, it's difficult to find a replacement for my Land Rover.
I need something which takes up to 9 people fairly often, tows a horse box
and is generally good with unmade roads in poor weather. I had no choice
other than to buy a diesel version, as they phased the V8 petrol out as an
option long ago, and having in the past had one, I couldn't live with 12 MPG
as an average - go off road and that looks good. I get twice that with the
diesel. I'd like, in a few years' time a Range Rover again, when I'll be
able to manage with less seating, but it's really too plush and will get
scratched in the lanes pulling into gaps in narrow lanes. I have a really
good dealer I've dealt with for 20+ years, and have no intention of swapping
makes. I'd also like a petrol version, but that will come down to
economy/how much I then use it, which may actually be more.

I also may be forced into buying a petrol version, depending how London puts
in place 'ultra-low emission' boundaries for diesel vehicles in the not too
distant future. 

Malcolm


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Re: OT: Diesels

[Bob W-PDML]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-38274792

Time to get rid of all of them from cities, diesel or otherwise

On 10 Dec 2016, at 16:40, Ralf R Radermacher 
> wrote:

Am 10.12.16 um 16:35 schrieb Bill:
A couple of months ago I spoiled myself in a major way and bought one of
the new Nissan Titan diesel trucks, equipped with a 5 liter turbo
Cummins engine.

Later generations will look at us and our diesel cars like we do at the Middle 
Ages when people threw the content their chamber pots out into the street.

European cities are so polluted by this diesel pest that we're having an 
alarming rate of premature deaths through NOx and soot.

We should have a law requiring that diesel cars have the exhaust led to the 
front, so that their drivers see what they're doing to all of us!

Ralf

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RE: OT: Diesels

[Malcolm Smith]

Steve Cottrell wrote:

Not quite daily. Even so, sounds like more frequently than you. My fuel bill
is roughly 600 quid a month!

When I finish work in 18 months, all the kit will go, including the Landy -
sigh. But I would love to build one from scratch  on a galvanised chassis.
It would be a 90 soft top with a V8 :-)

Regressing to type ;-)


Go for it. Driven one or two of those and they are amazing.

Malcolm


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Re: OT: Diesels

[Steve Cottrell]

On 10/12/16, Malcolm Smith, discombobulated, unleashed:

>You use yours I presume daily; nowadays mine goes out twice a week as I've
>replaced car travel with cycling/walking as far as possible (parking is a
>nightmare). Td5's need a lot of battery juice to initially crank them over,
>and the use I give mine, particularly when it's had a couple of days in the
>cold without use, reduces battery life. 

Not quite daily. Even so, sounds like more frequently than you. My fuel
bill is roughly 600 quid a month!

When I finish work in 18 months, all the kit will go, including the
Landy - sigh. But I would love to build one from scratch  on a
galvanised chassis. It would be a 90 soft top with a V8 :-)

Regressing to type ;-)



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Re: OT: Diesels

[Steve Cottrell]

On 10/12/16, Ralf R Radermacher, discombobulated, unleashed:

>Later generations will look at us and our diesel cars like we do at the 
>Middle Ages when people threw the content their chamber pots out into 
>the street.
>
>European cities are so polluted by this diesel pest that we're having an 
>alarming rate of premature deaths through NOx and soot.
>
>We should have a law requiring that diesel cars have the exhaust led to 
>the front, so that their drivers see what they're doing to all of us!

Actually I agree with you Ralf.

The problem is that back in the 1980s and 1990s, here in the UK diesel
was pushed as the 'cleaner' fuel and hence was cheaper in price than
petrol. the government promoted diesel heavily and the car manufacturers
followed suit by making more of them.

Now we are seeing the true legacy.

It all boils down from the oil lobby and the car makers, simple as that.
Without the need to pander to oil-rich nations, we would all have been
driving battery, even hydrogen powered cars years ago. Instead we line
the pockets of certain nations who shall remain nameless but have lots
of sand and camels.

I need a big utility vehicle for work, but if I had a choice of a less
polluting method of propulsion, I would jump at it.

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  Cotty


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RE: OT: Diesels

[Malcolm Smith]

Steve Cottrell wrote:

Three years!

Spend a bit extra and save in the long run:



I've got 2 aboard the Defender and they are amazing. I've run one completely
flat and it sprang back to life and hasn't missed a beat since.

I've you're on Facebook, a couple of great groups for tips is  Angry Puma's
(yes complete with wrongly used apostrophe) and DEFENDERS & SERIES.  Picked
up loads of titbits on these and am able to help too.
Good fun.
+

I am indeed on Facebook and will do so.

I've no objection to spending money on a decent battery - it's under a third
more than I've recently spent, if that, and it reminds me to see when it is
next due for a replacement.

You use yours I presume daily; nowadays mine goes out twice a week as I've
replaced car travel with cycling/walking as far as possible (parking is a
nightmare). Td5's need a lot of battery juice to initially crank them over,
and the use I give mine, particularly when it's had a couple of days in the
cold without use, reduces battery life. 

Thanks Cotty,

Malcolm  


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Re: OT: Diesels

[Ralf R Radermacher]

Am 10.12.16 um 16:35 schrieb Bill:

A couple of months ago I spoiled myself in a major way and bought one of
the new Nissan Titan diesel trucks, equipped with a 5 liter turbo
Cummins engine.


Later generations will look at us and our diesel cars like we do at the 
Middle Ages when people threw the content their chamber pots out into 
the street.


European cities are so polluted by this diesel pest that we're having an 
alarming rate of premature deaths through NOx and soot.


We should have a law requiring that diesel cars have the exhaust led to 
the front, so that their drivers see what they're doing to all of us!


Ralf

--
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Blog  : http://the-real-fotoralf.blogspot.com
Audio : http://aporee.org/maps/projects/fotoralf
Web   : http://www.fotoralf.de

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Re: OT: Diesels

[Steve Cottrell]

On 10/12/16, Malcolm Smith, discombobulated, unleashed:

> My Land Rover has a
>Td5 diesel engine, and it is very heavy on battery life, particularly over
>cold winters if not used daily. They give up without warning and I replace
>mine every three years. I haven't owned a petrol car in some years.

Three years!

Spend a bit extra and save in the long run:



I've got 2 aboard the Defender and they are amazing. I've run one
completely flat and it sprang back to life and hasn't missed a beat since.

I've you're on Facebook, a couple of great groups for tips is  Angry
Puma's  (yes complete with wrongly used apostrophe) and DEFENDERS &
SERIES.  Picked up loads of titbits on these and am able to help too.
Good fun.

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  Cotty


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RE: OT: Diesels

[Malcolm Smith]

Steve Cottrell wrote:
On 10/12/16, Bill, discombobulated, unleashed:

>If there are any diesel wonks on the forum, your thoughts would be 
>appreciated.

Yes but no experience of such cold operating conditions.

Despite the UK's reputation of a cold dreary place, the coldest winter
minima we would normally expect would be something like -8 to -12 deg C.
That's well within range of the winter diesel fuel supplies, so we just
don't have the starting issues.

I have to say that one thing I would invest in for operating in your temps
would be a Webasto (or similar pre-heating system). Is this what you mean by
'plugging in the block heater' ?) They can be operated remotely or set on a
timer. I would imagine the engine would start up pretty much instantly with
a warm block and the added advantage of a warm cabin.





I have a Ford 2.4 litre 4 cylinder engine in the Land Rover and it pretty
much just keeps plugging away. It's a 2012 model year and because of the
nature of my work it does spend time idling, but does not have the latest
anti-pollution spec fitted. It does have a re-map and larger intercooler
taking it from the 122 BHP to 180 BHP. After splitting the exhaust manifold
in two, I've now attached a chalk-board eraser underneath the gas pedal ;-)

As you are no doubt discovering, getting used to low-rev torque takes a
while but I would imagine the output from the Cummins is pretty amazing.
+++

My in-laws run a pre-heater for their Land Rover. It plugs in from an
electrical socket in the house and takes moments to remove. After a cold
night (not your cold but much colder than the worst London temperatures and
often with deep snow) it starts easily first time and gets to running
temperature in a few minutes. Living 400 miles south, I've no need for one
here but would not hesitate to use one if I lived there. My Land Rover has a
Td5 diesel engine, and it is very heavy on battery life, particularly over
cold winters if not used daily. They give up without warning and I replace
mine every three years. I haven't owned a petrol car in some years.

Malcolm




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Re: OT: Diesels

[Steve Cottrell]

On 10/12/16, Bill, discombobulated, unleashed:

>If there are any diesel wonks on the forum, your thoughts would be 
>appreciated.

Yes but no experience of such cold operating conditions.

Despite the UK's reputation of a cold dreary place, the coldest winter
minima we would normally expect would be something like -8 to -12 deg C.
That's well within range of the winter diesel fuel supplies, so we just
don't have the starting issues.

I have to say that one thing I would invest in for operating in your
temps would be a Webasto (or similar pre-heating system). Is this what
you mean by 'plugging in the block heater' ?) They can be operated
remotely or set on a timer. I would imagine the engine would start up
pretty much instantly with a warm block and the added advantage of a
warm cabin.





I have a Ford 2.4 litre 4 cylinder engine in the Land Rover and it
pretty much just keeps plugging away. It's a 2012 model year and because
of the nature of my work it does spend time idling, but does not have
the latest anti-pollution spec fitted. It does have a re-map and larger
intercooler taking it from the 122 BHP to 180 BHP. After splitting the
exhaust manifold in two, I've now attached a chalk-board eraser
underneath the gas pedal ;-)

As you are no doubt discovering, getting used to low-rev torque takes a
while but I would imagine the output from the Cummins is pretty amazing.



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  Cotty


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