Re: green button wars (again)
On 20/9/05, Brian Walters, discombobulated, unleashed: Well, can't resist posting this: http://www.mindspring.com/~mfpatton/sketch.htm Yes you can. Cheers, Cotty ___/\__ || (O) | People, Places, Pastiche ||=|http://www.cottysnaps.com _
Re: Re: green button wars (again)
From: Brian Walters [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: 2005/09/21 Wed AM 02:57:10 GMT To: pentax-discuss@pdml.net Subject: Re: green button wars (again) Quoting [EMAIL PROTECTED]: On 20/9/05, Tom C, discombobulated, unleashed: Doesn't it take two to argue? No it doesn't. Cheers, Cotty I could be arguing in my spare time.:-) Dave(here we go)Brooks Well, can't resist posting this: http://www.mindspring.com/~mfpatton/sketch.htm The best part: http://www.mindspring.com/~mfpatton/killa.htm - Email sent from www.ntlworld.com Virus-checked using McAfee(R) Software Visit www.ntlworld.com/security for more information
Re: green button wars (again)
HA! On 9/21/05, Brian Walters [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Quoting [EMAIL PROTECTED]: On 20/9/05, Tom C, discombobulated, unleashed: Doesn't it take two to argue? No it doesn't. Cheers, Cotty I could be arguing in my spare time.:-) Dave(here we go)Brooks Well, can't resist posting this: http://www.mindspring.com/~mfpatton/sketch.htm Cheers, Brian + Brian Walters Western Sydney, Australia
Re: green button wars (again)
Posting what? You haven't posted anything! On 9/20/05, Brian Walters [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Well, can't resist posting this: http://www.mindspring.com/~mfpatton/sketch.htm -- Scott Loveless http://www.twosixteen.com -- You have to hold the button down -Arnold Newman
Re: green button wars (again)
Yes you can. Kenneth Waller On 9/20/05, Brian Walters [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Well, can't resist posting this: http://www.mindspring.com/~mfpatton/sketch.htm - Original Message - From: Scott Loveless [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: pentax-discuss@pdml.net Sent: Wednesday, September 21, 2005 4:04 PM Subject: Re: green button wars (again) Posting what? You haven't posted anything! On 9/20/05, Brian Walters [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Well, can't resist posting this: http://www.mindspring.com/~mfpatton/sketch.htm -- Scott Loveless http://www.twosixteen.com -- You have to hold the button down -Arnold Newman
Re: green button wars (again)
No - I most certainly can't.. Cheers, Brian + Brian Walters Western Sydney, Australia Quoting Cotty [EMAIL PROTECTED]: On 20/9/05, Brian Walters, discombobulated, unleashed: Well, can't resist posting this: http://www.mindspring.com/~mfpatton/sketch.htm Yes you can.
Re: green button wars (again)
Did Cheers, Brian + Brian Walters Western Sydney, Australia Quoting Scott Loveless [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Posting what? You haven't posted anything! On 9/20/05, Brian Walters [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Well, can't resist posting this:
Re: green button wars (again)
Not. On 9/21/05, Brian Walters [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Did Cheers, Brian + Brian Walters Western Sydney, Australia Quoting Scott Loveless [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Posting what? You haven't posted anything! On 9/20/05, Brian Walters [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Well, can't resist posting this: -- Scott Loveless http://www.twosixteen.com -- You have to hold the button down -Arnold Newman
Re: green button wars (again)
As I've already explained to Cotty.Can't!! Cheers, Brian + Brian Walters Western Sydney, Australia Quoting [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Yes you can. Kenneth Waller On 9/20/05, Brian Walters [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Well, can't resist posting this: http://www.mindspring.com/~mfpatton/sketch.htm
Re: green button wars (again)
Sorry, your 5 minutes is up! Cheers, Brian + Brian Walters Western Sydney, Australia Quoting Scott Loveless [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Not. On 9/21/05, Brian Walters [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Did Cheers, Brian + Brian Walters Western Sydney, Australia Quoting Scott Loveless [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Posting what? You haven't posted anything! On 9/20/05, Brian Walters [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Well, can't resist posting this: -- Scott Loveless http://www.twosixteen.com -- You have to hold the button down -Arnold Newman
Re: green button wars (again)
On Sep 19, 2005, at 8:32 PM, J. C. O'Connell wrote: YOUR spamming- please stop posting posts with absolutely no relevant content to the list... P.S. havent you got anything better to do that count my posts and report to the list? that's sad... What I'm posting is extremely relevant to the list: I'm pointing out how much email bandwidth is being wasted with these inane diatribes of yours. We're long since moved past sensible discussion of the topic and gotten into religion now. It's a tough job but somebody has to do it. I'll accept the burden for the good of the PDML community. :-) Godfrey
Re: green button wars (again)
It's a tough job but somebody has to do it. I'll accept the burden for the good of the PDML community. :-) Way to take one for the team, Godfrey. (: Personally, I'm tired of his close-minded, self-righteous ballyhooing. Lucky for him I'm not a moderator, or I would have taken the hint from the screw mount community and kicked him out. John Celio -- http://www.neovenator.com AIM: Neopifex Hey, I'm an artist. I can do whatever I want and pretend I'm making a statement.
Re: green button wars (again)
On 19/9/05, J. C. O'Connell, discombobulated, unleashed: P.S. havent you got anything better to do that count my posts and report to the list? Godders, the man *has* a point ;-) Cheers, Cotty ___/\__ || (O) | People, Places, Pastiche ||=|http://www.cottysnaps.com _
Re: green button wars (again)
On 19/9/05, John Francis, discombobulated, unleashed: Once the ordure came into contact with the rotational air circulating device they screamed for help from the engineers, who were able to come up with a reasonable workaround. What, and they didn't see it coming? Come on John, companies that actually stay in business just don't do things like that. It's not being cynical, it's just covering your bases Cheers, Cotty ___/\__ || (O) | People, Places, Pastiche ||=|http://www.cottysnaps.com _
Re: green button wars (again)
In a message dated 9/19/2005 8:21:42 PM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Count: 78 green button messages from JCO in 27 hours. Bloody slacker. That's only three per hour. He needs better spam- generating software. Godfrey = I am tired of this, so I am going to say something. Against my better judgment. Look, Godfrey, you're not helping anything with this stuff. Not one bit. I would like some people to cool it. (Yes, him too.) But you are also included on my please-knock-it-off list with your constant jabbing. (And a few others are included on that part of my list too.) Most people will quiet down if they feel they have been heard and not just totally discounted. Unless, that is, they have lost all perspective. And if they have, that is another problem. So...let's cool our jets. And can't we all just get along? Marnie aka Doe ;-)
Re: green button wars (again)
In a message dated 9/20/2005 12:28:24 AM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: What, and they didn't see it coming? Come on John, companies that actually stay in business just don't do things like that. It's not being cynical, it's just covering your bases Cheers, Cotty - Agreed. I still think you nailed it, Cotty. Like MS. It's not a bug, it's a feature. Hehehehe. Marnie aka Doe
Re: Re: green button wars (again)
From: John Celio [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: 2005/09/20 Tue AM 07:23:11 GMT To: pentax-discuss@pdml.net Subject: Re: green button wars (again) It's a tough job but somebody has to do it. I'll accept the burden for the good of the PDML community. :-) Way to take one for the team, Godfrey. (: Personally, I'm tired of his close-minded, self-righteous ballyhooing. Lucky for him I'm not a moderator, or I would have taken the hint from the screw mount community and kicked him out. I must be just as out of step, then. It seems to me that he's making a perfectly valid point (albeit forcefully, which is understandable given the repeated stating of what he deems to be wrong and the immediate mockery of his position) about the construction of a camera. His extrapolation of that into a future policy is supposition and am less inclined to agree with him. But I accept fully that it is a possibility. Time will tell and I am perfectly happy to wait. If I never buy another camera, I won't starve, freeze or be otherwise discomfited. If the time comes that I cannot use what I have already then I will simply stop. My best pictures are between my ears anyway and I can see those any time I want. mike Hey, I'm an artist. I can do whatever I want and pretend I'm making a statement. - Email sent from www.ntlworld.com Virus-checked using McAfee(R) Software Visit www.ntlworld.com/security for more information
Re: green button wars (again)
between April and June 2005, KM sold 10K, Nikon sold 330K, Olympus sold 40K, Pentax sold 20K, and Canon sold 500K DSLRs. everyone else was enough under 10K not to matter. Herb... - Original Message - From: Adam Maas [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: pentax-discuss@pdml.net Sent: Monday, September 19, 2005 10:40 PM Subject: Re: green button wars (again) There simply aren't enough film SLR users out there to drive the sales numbers Nikon and Canon are seeing. Remember that the low-end Nikons and Rebels are selling around 100,000 units a month. You think there are enough film SLR users out there to drive 200,000 units a month in sales
Re: green button wars (again)
since it is on a tripod, one handed makes little difference. Herb... - Original Message - From: P. J. Alling [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: pentax-discuss@pdml.net Sent: Monday, September 19, 2005 11:15 PM Subject: Re: green button wars (again) For you maybe, I find I'm a lot steadier if I hold the camera properly.
RE: green button wars (again)
STOP the personal attacks. It is irresponsible behavior for you to continue classify my posts as inane or religious or wasted bandwidth without responding to them directly. In other words if you cant refute what I am saying then you don't have the right to make those kind of personal insults without cause. This is the second time I have had to say this and I don't like it one bit. Respond to the posts IF YOU CAN. If you CANT, then stop the personal attacks.. Sincerely, JCO -Original Message- From: Godfrey DiGiorgi [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, September 20, 2005 2:11 AM To: pentax-discuss@pdml.net Subject: Re: green button wars (again) On Sep 19, 2005, at 8:32 PM, J. C. O'Connell wrote: YOUR spamming- please stop posting posts with absolutely no relevant content to the list... P.S. havent you got anything better to do that count my posts and report to the list? that's sad... What I'm posting is extremely relevant to the list: I'm pointing out how much email bandwidth is being wasted with these inane diatribes of yours. We're long since moved past sensible discussion of the topic and gotten into religion now. It's a tough job but somebody has to do it. I'll accept the burden for the good of the PDML community. :-) Godfrey
Re: green button wars (again)
- Original Message - From: J. C. O'Connell [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: pentax-discuss@pdml.net Sent: Monday, September 19, 2005 11:09 PM Subject: RE: green button wars (again) as for reasons to switch from PS digicams to DSLRS are DSLRS actually quieter? Why? Bigger sensor/photosites for the same resolution. an 8MP digicam is way nosier at ISO 400 than an 8mp DSLR at ISO 1600 for this reason. Are they really faster now, PS digicams have narrowed that gap considerably havent they?. Shutter lag and EVF lag are still a problem on digicams in my experience, even the SLR-like EVF cams. ISO limits are not much of an issue. People used 400 film with much lower image qualtiy in there slow lensed PS film cameras and didn't care much... Consumer grade 400 film is still better than a typical noisy digicam, in my opinion, at ISO 400. As an aside to respond to a previous post of yours: I know dozens of people (co-workers who have some money) who have never owned a film SLR and have moved from film PSes or digicams to DSLRs. ALL of them have chosen Canon (digirebels, 20Ds and yes, several more affluent people have purchased 1DIIs) and almost all of them use them - even the 1DII gasp! - in Program mode. Christian
Re: green button wars (again)
On Sep 20, 2005, at 12:27 AM, Cotty wrote: P.S. havent you got anything better to do that count my posts and report to the list? Godders, the man *has* a point ;-) After hammering on it 80 some times, I think it's getting pretty blunt. Godfrey
Re: green button wars (again)
HA! On 9/20/05, Godfrey DiGiorgi [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Sep 20, 2005, at 12:27 AM, Cotty wrote: P.S. havent you got anything better to do that count my posts and report to the list? Godders, the man *has* a point ;-) After hammering on it 80 some times, I think it's getting pretty blunt. Godfrey
Re: green button wars (again)
It's a tough job but somebody has to do it. I'll accept the burden for the good of the PDML community. :-) As follow up: From Sept 17, 8:54 pm to Sept 20, 10:07 am, JCO has made 98 posts on this topic, and none on any other topic. Most other posters to this and related threads have made 10-12 posts in the same time period, and have commented on other threads about 2x-3x more frequently. Godfrey
Re: green button wars (again)
In a message dated 9/20/2005 10:27:26 AM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: As follow up: From Sept 17, 8:54 pm to Sept 20, 10:07 am, JCO has made 98 posts on this topic, and none on any other topic. Most other posters to this and related threads have made 10-12 posts in the same time period, and have commented on other threads about 2x-3x more frequently. Godfrey Okay, you are now in my kill file. I find this kind of harassment of a long time list member totally unwarranted. You may find him annoying, but you don't have to read his posts. And he has valid points. He has always had valid points. And he knows old lenses. He has also been helpful to me regarding old lenses. You, sir, I am finding much, much more annoying than him. Marnie aka Doe (I don't have a kill file. But for now, I am not reading your posts.) Sheesh, sometimes there is simply too much testosterone on this list.
Re: green button wars (again)
posts.) Sheesh, sometimes there is simply too much testosterone on this list. Agreed. You'd think it was usenet for how much carrying-on has been happening recently. -Cory -- * * Cory Papenfuss* * Electrical Engineering candidate Ph.D. graduate student * * Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University * *
Re: green button wars (again)
On Sep 20, 2005, at 10:38 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: As follow up: From Sept 17, 8:54 pm to Sept 20, 10:07 am, JCO has made 98 posts on this topic, and none on any other topic. Most other posters to this and related threads have made 10-12 posts in the same time period, and have commented on other threads about 2x-3x more frequently. Okay, you are now in my kill file. I find this kind of harassment of a long time list member totally unwarranted. You may find him annoying, but you don't have to read his posts. And he has valid points. He has always had valid points. And he knows old lenses. He has also been helpful to me regarding old lenses. You, sir, I am finding much, much more annoying than him. Marnie aka Doe (I don't have a kill file. But for now, I am not reading your posts.) Sheesh, sometimes there is simply too much testosterone on this list. Sorry you feel that way. Since you're not interested in reading my messages any further, I suppose this apology is in vain. I'm simply reporting the facts. Why I'm reporting them is that I find such behavior to be an incredible waste of time and feel people on the mailing list should be aware of how much this subscriber's behavior is costing in terms of message volume. It's not a waste of time for me. It takes me virtually no time to generate such reports as I developed many automated tools for analyzing large quantities of posts (the peak volume I used to see was around 4000 posts per day) from newsgroups/mailing lists/bulletin boards/etc that I used in the position I spoke of earlier. It's very easy for me to generate and track mailing list traffic. I turned on my tracking tools and find JCO's activity is classed as a list abuser by the coda of every list I've ever participated in, and I've been participating in mailing lists since 1984. Godfrey
RE: green button wars (again)
I've missed most of these wars and will delete the remainder w/o reading. Just one question for the group at large. Doesn't it take two to argue? Tom C.
Re: green button wars (again)
Apparently not. Tom C wrote: I've missed most of these wars and will delete the remainder w/o reading. Just one question for the group at large. Doesn't it take two to argue? Tom C. -- When you're worried or in doubt, Run in circles, (scream and shout).
Re: green button wars (again)
It does. I was the second, to my shame. Apologies to the rest of the list on how badly this snowballed. -Adam Tom C wrote: I've missed most of these wars and will delete the remainder w/o reading. Just one question for the group at large. Doesn't it take two to argue? Tom C.
RE: green button wars (again)
Sorry but you have it backwards. YOU are not contributing ANTHING valuable to anyone and I am so your posts are just bandwidth wasting personal spam. Even if you do not agree with me on everything in this thread at least it's a disscussion of the issues with Pentax at this time and for you to say my posts to be a total waste of time is about as ridiculous as your post count reports. If your not interested in the thread ignore it and if your ignoring it you have no business classifying it as a total waste of time.. So I suggest you make up your mind, participate or shut up about its value. Posting post counts and declaring it a waste of time isnt adding anything of ANY value to ANYONE in the discussion. jco -Original Message- From: Godfrey DiGiorgi [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, September 20, 2005 2:08 PM To: pentax-discuss@pdml.net Subject: Re: green button wars (again) On Sep 20, 2005, at 10:38 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: As follow up: From Sept 17, 8:54 pm to Sept 20, 10:07 am, JCO has made 98 posts on this topic, and none on any other topic. Most other posters to this and related threads have made 10-12 posts in the same time period, and have commented on other threads about 2x-3x more frequently. Okay, you are now in my kill file. I find this kind of harassment of a long time list member totally unwarranted. You may find him annoying, but you don't have to read his posts. And he has valid points. He has always had valid points. And he knows old lenses. He has also been helpful to me regarding old lenses. You, sir, I am finding much, much more annoying than him. Marnie aka Doe (I don't have a kill file. But for now, I am not reading your posts.) Sheesh, sometimes there is simply too much testosterone on this list. Sorry you feel that way. Since you're not interested in reading my messages any further, I suppose this apology is in vain. I'm simply reporting the facts. Why I'm reporting them is that I find such behavior to be an incredible waste of time and feel people on the mailing list should be aware of how much this subscriber's behavior is costing in terms of message volume. It's not a waste of time for me. It takes me virtually no time to generate such reports as I developed many automated tools for analyzing large quantities of posts (the peak volume I used to see was around 4000 posts per day) from newsgroups/mailing lists/bulletin boards/etc that I used in the position I spoke of earlier. It's very easy for me to generate and track mailing list traffic. I turned on my tracking tools and find JCO's activity is classed as a list abuser by the coda of every list I've ever participated in, and I've been participating in mailing lists since 1984. Godfrey
Re: green button wars (again)
You are in good company then. :) Tom C. From: Adam Maas [EMAIL PROTECTED] It does. I was the second, to my shame. Apologies to the rest of the list on how badly this snowballed. -Adam
Re: green button wars (again)
On 20/9/05, Tom C, discombobulated, unleashed: Doesn't it take two to argue? No it doesn't. Cheers, Cotty ___/\__ || (O) | People, Places, Pastiche ||=|http://www.cottysnaps.com _
Re: green button wars (again)
On 20/9/05, Tom C, discombobulated, unleashed: Doesn't it take two to argue? No it doesn't. Cheers, Cotty I could be arguing in my spare time.:-) Dave(here we go)Brooks
Re: green button wars (again)
Quoting [EMAIL PROTECTED]: On 20/9/05, Tom C, discombobulated, unleashed: Doesn't it take two to argue? No it doesn't. Cheers, Cotty I could be arguing in my spare time.:-) Dave(here we go)Brooks Well, can't resist posting this: http://www.mindspring.com/~mfpatton/sketch.htm Cheers, Brian + Brian Walters Western Sydney, Australia
Re: green button wars (again)
In a message dated 9/20/2005 7:58:03 PM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I could be arguing in my spare time.:-) Dave(here we go)Brooks Well, can't resist posting this: http://www.mindspring.com/~mfpatton/sketch.htm Cheers, Brian ROFL. Marnie aka Doe :-)
Re: green button wars (again)
On 18/9/05, J. C. O'Connell, discombobulated, unleashed: [unrelenting zealotry snipped] I hate to say it, but the zealot is right. gasp FWIW, I would have liked to have seen a new mount introduced a few years ago, to run in tandem with KAF for a period of 10 years or more (which would then be phased out in favour of the new mount). This would then open the door to new technologies more compatible with modern cameras and lenses? Some have said before that the K mount is too small for certain things to happen? bottom line, nobody does stop down metering anymore for these simple reasons unless there has been a mount change that necessitates using stop down on some old incompatable mount Hmmm, this sounds familiar g Ultimately of course, people do one of four things: 1. Don't buy and use 'green button' cameras. 2. Buy and use green button cameras. 3. Switch to a competing brand. 4. Emigrate to Peru and live as a goat. Cheers, Cotty ___/\__ || (O) | People, Places, Pastiche ||=|http://www.cottysnaps.com _
Re: green button wars (again)
On 18/9/05, J. C. O'Connell, discombobulated, unleashed: Pentax used the same registration distance (45.5mm) Aha!!! 45.46mm (rounding up not allowed at such tight tolerances :-) Gotcha. Cheers, Cotty ___/\__ || (O) | People, Places, Pastiche ||=|http://www.cottysnaps.com _
RE: green button wars (again)
Cotty wrote: 4. Emigrate to Peru and live as a goat. From the instructions on unsubscribing to PDML. Malcolm
Re: green button wars (again)
it's clear from the DS, DL, and DS2 announcements that Pentax was aiming at the low end of the market and mostly to people who have never owned any type of SLR before. the D was aimed a little higher. competition is going to be much worse in a few months. in a brutal market starting in 2000, Panasonic went from zero to twice Pentax's volume sales in 2004. there is wide expectation that they are about to enter the DSLR market next spring. Herb - Original Message - From: Gonz [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: pentax-discuss@pdml.net Sent: Sunday, September 18, 2005 11:32 PM Subject: Re: green button wars (again) I.e. they are trying to aim the new DSLR's to a market segment that does not fit your profile. Since they are trying to survive in a very competitive and brutal market right now, its hard to second guess their decisions based on our own little microscopic view of whats good for us.
Re: green button wars (again)
sorry, you're wrong. that's exactly why the low end DSLRs are selling like hotcakes. they are selling to people upgrading from digital PS cameras being used every day. if they had a film camera, it has been in the closet for years. the high end market like people here account for a tiny fraction of the buyers. Herb - Original Message - From: J. C. O'Connell [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: pentax-discuss@pdml.net Sent: Monday, September 19, 2005 12:06 AM Subject: RE: green button wars (again) There is a major flaw in your argument in my opinion. I don't think the demographics of DSLR buyers is newbies. I would bet my money that the demographics of DSLR buyers is mostly people who already owned film bodies and already have lenses and are upgrading the body to digital. I don't have anything to back this up it just a hunch, but most true newbies arent even into SLRS today or even know what they are, most newbies have grown up on PS cameras.
Re: green button wars (again)
Mark Erickson wrote: My take: reading when the lens is stopped down. Open aperture metering takes the meter reading with the lens wide open. Green-button metering takes in less light than open aperture metering. If you try to use green-button metering in low light with a small lens aperture, you might run out of the useful range of the meter. Fortunately, with modern metering cells this is a scenario that almost never happens - who does take f/11 shots in available light at 3 EV? At such lower light levels most people shoot wider open... On the other hand, green-button metering(also known as stop-down metering) may be more accurate than open-aperture metering because it takes the meter reading with the lens at the same aperture as will be used to actually take Also, it isn't affected by vignetting of the lens, when using evaluative or averaging metering mode. Fra
Re: green button wars (again)
Its done for convenience. You can see your shutter speed real time and can make adjustments if its too fast/slow. Pentax could have had a pseudo-AE mode if they wanted to with just one press of the green button per aperture selection if they wanted to. By taking two measurements, one wide open, one with the aperture down, a simple ratio could be used for all future calculations using the future wide open measurement. If you changed the aperture, you pressed the green button again. I believe you're saying the same thing I've suggested in the past. I have written to Pentax suggesting they implement this as a firmware option. Of course I haven't heard anything about it by the time the English-Japanese-English telephone game stalls it out. -Cory -- * * Cory Papenfuss* * Electrical Engineering candidate Ph.D. graduate student * * Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University * *
Re: green button wars (again)
George Sinos [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: JCO - I agree with you in concept. But, in the end, no matter how many folks write to Pentax about their old lenses it's just not going to make any difference. And the fact is, even on the PDML, the center of Pentax enthusiasm, there are only 4-5 people who care much about it. I the wider world this averages out to 0% for all practical purposes. -- Mark Roberts Photography and writing www.robertstech.com
Re: green button wars (again)
i'm one of the people who shoot f11 under those conditions. i can look at the histogram if i think the shot is improperly exposed and correct if need be. every time i have had to correct exposure, it's not because of the lens or the camera, it's because i wasn't paying attention and not overriding the camera. Herb... - Original Message - From: fra [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: pentax-discuss@pdml.net Sent: Monday, September 19, 2005 6:54 AM Subject: Re: green button wars (again) Fortunately, with modern metering cells this is a scenario that almost never happens - who does take f/11 shots in available light at 3 EV? At such lower light levels most people shoot wider open...
Re: green button wars (again)
Gonz [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: For whatever reason, probably because of certain competitive features, the whole cam sensor thing got dropped. Right. They aren't going to include a feature that adds parts and assembly costs (and introduces another electromechanical point of failure - the potentiometer - into the system) unless it's demanded by a large majority of potential purchasers. I.e. they are trying to aim the new DSLR's to a market segment that does not fit your profile. Since they are trying to survive in a very competitive and brutal market right now, its hard to second guess their decisions based on our own little microscopic view of whats good for us. -- Mark Roberts Photography and writing www.robertstech.com
RE: green button wars (again)
Fine with me, some people cant handle the truth. I never put anybody in my kill file because theres nothing gained by not hereing all there is to be heard about a subject because if you learn even one thing from a thousand posts you are still learning. Refusing to listen at all never makes you smarter. -Original Message- From: Godfrey DiGiorgi [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, September 19, 2005 1:16 AM To: pentax-discuss@pdml.net Subject: Re: green button wars (again) On Sep 18, 2005, at 7:32 PM, J. C. O'Connell wrote: I CONTINUE TO RANT Rant alone. You're now in my .kill file. Godfrey
Re: green button wars (again)
- Original Message - From: Cotty [EMAIL PROTECTED] Ultimately of course, people do one of four things: 1. Don't buy and use 'green button' cameras. 2. Buy and use green button cameras. 3. Switch to a competing brand. 4. Emigrate to Peru and live as a goat. Mehehhehhh Christian
RE: green button wars (again)
Lets see some proof/numbers to back it up dude! I didn't claim to know for a fact but you seem to. How many people ON THIS LIST for example bought a PENTAX DSLR for their very first SLR? ANYONE? EVEN ONE PERSON? I would like to see a survey of DSLR owners of all brands and see how many of them actually never owned a single SLR before purchasing the DSLR. It doesn't make sense to me because its obvious the the true value in buying a new featured expensive body is if you already have a large number of lenses to utilize on it and all those lenses will become more useful. If you have to go out and buy three or more lenses with it from scratch the cost gets quite high ( A least over $1000) and I doubt there are many SLR **newbies** willing to make that kind of commitment from scratch. Advanced photographers know its worth it but the average newbie person looks at really nice digicams for $200-$300 and doesn't usually make that kind of leap of faith in one shot. Its kinda like a person who grows up on a boom box for music. They may end up with a $20,000 stereo twenty years later but they seldom get there in one giant step. It take years to appreciate and learn about SLR cameras and lenses. If you don't appreciate them you wont be willing to pay big bucks for them compared to the really nice digicams being sold now for a fraction of the cost... JCO -Original Message- From: Herb Chong [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, September 19, 2005 6:39 AM To: pentax-discuss@pdml.net Subject: Re: green button wars (again) sorry, you're wrong. that's exactly why the low end DSLRs are selling like hotcakes. they are selling to people upgrading from digital PS cameras being used every day. if they had a film camera, it has been in the closet for years. the high end market like people here account for a tiny fraction of the buyers. Herb - Original Message - From: J. C. O'Connell [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: pentax-discuss@pdml.net Sent: Monday, September 19, 2005 12:06 AM Subject: RE: green button wars (again) There is a major flaw in your argument in my opinion. I don't think the demographics of DSLR buyers is newbies. I would bet my money that the demographics of DSLR buyers is mostly people who already owned film bodies and already have lenses and are upgrading the body to digital. I don't have anything to back this up it just a hunch, but most true newbies arent even into SLRS today or even know what they are, most newbies have grown up on PS cameras.
Re: green button wars (again)
How's your life as a Peruvian goat working out Christian? Dave ;-) On 9/19/05, Christian [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: - Original Message - Wrom: JVTLBXFGGMEPYOQKEDOTWFAOBU Ultimately of course, people do one of four things: 1. Don't buy and use 'green button' cameras. 2. Buy and use green button cameras. 3. Switch to a competing brand. 4. Emigrate to Peru and live as a goat. Mehehhehhh Christian -- Dave
RE: green button wars (again)
More unfounded stop down advocacy. when you get down into the low light region where stop down metering wont at small apertures you are already needing to tripod mount the camera so there is no reason to be shooting wide open, most lenses are poor wide open. Like I said if anyone here thinks stop down metering is better or as good as open aperture metering than I would like and explanation why NONE of the camera companies use it anymore or even offer it as an option in additon to open aperture metering? Because its isnt as good that's why. The very very slight advantage it has over open aperture metering in accuracy in SOME bright conditions isnt needed but the all disadvantages it has under most conditions definitely are major differences that make the meter inoperative or less convenient. In other words, stop down metering advantages don't matter, but open aperture metering advantages DO matter. the method with the most advantages that matter wins and stop down metering doesn't have ANY advantages that matter... JCO -Original Message- From: fra [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, September 19, 2005 6:54 AM To: pentax-discuss@pdml.net Subject: Re: green button wars (again) Mark Erickson wrote: My take: reading when the lens is stopped down. Open aperture metering takes the meter reading with the lens wide open. Green-button metering takes in less light than open aperture metering. If you try to use green-button metering in low light with a small lens aperture, you might run out of the useful range of the meter. Fortunately, with modern metering cells this is a scenario that almost never happens - who does take f/11 shots in available light at 3 EV? At such lower light levels most people shoot wider open... On the other hand, green-button metering(also known as stop-down metering) may be more accurate than open-aperture metering because it takes the meter reading with the lens at the same aperture as will be used to actually take Also, it isn't affected by vignetting of the lens, when using evaluative or averaging metering mode. Fra
RE: green button wars (again)
You don't care about PENTAX PRODUCT SUPPORT in general? I don't believe that and that is the key to my criticism of them on this because if you fully understand what they did you would understand what it means for the future of all pentax products then and now and everything they will ever make in the future because this is a key departure for them. Its not just about a green button... -Original Message- From: Mark Roberts [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, September 19, 2005 7:21 AM To: pentax-discuss@pdml.net Subject: Re: green button wars (again) George Sinos [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: JCO - I agree with you in concept. But, in the end, no matter how many folks write to Pentax about their old lenses it's just not going to make any difference. And the fact is, even on the PDML, the center of Pentax enthusiasm, there are only 4-5 people who care much about it. I the wider world this averages out to 0% for all practical purposes. -- Mark Roberts Photography and writing www.robertstech.com
Re: green button wars (again)
Most of the Canon users I know did buy a Digital Rebel(or XT) as their first SLR, Nikon users are the ones that seem most likely to have used a film SLR in my experience (Admittedly a small sample size). Most DSLR users I know have upgraded from PS digitals rather than film. I happen to be the only Pentax DSLR user I've run across in the real world, and I bought my Pentax Film Gear knowing I was going to buy the D. -Adam J. C. O'Connell wrote: Lets see some proof/numbers to back it up dude! I didn't claim to know for a fact but you seem to. How many people ON THIS LIST for example bought a PENTAX DSLR for their very first SLR? ANYONE? EVEN ONE PERSON? I would like to see a survey of DSLR owners of all brands and see how many of them actually never owned a single SLR before purchasing the DSLR. It doesn't make sense to me because its obvious the the true value in buying a new featured expensive body is if you already have a large number of lenses to utilize on it and all those lenses will become more useful. If you have to go out and buy three or more lenses with it from scratch the cost gets quite high ( A least over $1000) and I doubt there are many SLR **newbies** willing to make that kind of commitment from scratch. Advanced photographers know its worth it but the average newbie person looks at really nice digicams for $200-$300 and doesn't usually make that kind of leap of faith in one shot. Its kinda like a person who grows up on a boom box for music. They may end up with a $20,000 stereo twenty years later but they seldom get there in one giant step. It take years to appreciate and learn about SLR cameras and lenses. If you don't appreciate them you wont be willing to pay big bucks for them compared to the really nice digicams being sold now for a fraction of the cost... JCO -Original Message- From: Herb Chong [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, September 19, 2005 6:39 AM To: pentax-discuss@pdml.net Subject: Re: green button wars (again) sorry, you're wrong. that's exactly why the low end DSLRs are selling like hotcakes. they are selling to people upgrading from digital PS cameras being used every day. if they had a film camera, it has been in the closet for years. the high end market like people here account for a tiny fraction of the buyers. Herb - Original Message - From: J. C. O'Connell [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: pentax-discuss@pdml.net Sent: Monday, September 19, 2005 12:06 AM Subject: RE: green button wars (again) There is a major flaw in your argument in my opinion. I don't think the demographics of DSLR buyers is newbies. I would bet my money that the demographics of DSLR buyers is mostly people who already owned film bodies and already have lenses and are upgrading the body to digital. I don't have anything to back this up it just a hunch, but most true newbies arent even into SLRS today or even know what they are, most newbies have grown up on PS cameras.
Re: green button wars (again)
No, he doesn't seem to care about one minor issue about Pentax Product Support. And neither does much of the list. And it's an 8 year old issue, not a new issue. -Adam J. C. O'Connell wrote: You don't care about PENTAX PRODUCT SUPPORT in general? I don't believe that and that is the key to my criticism of them on this because if you fully understand what they did you would understand what it means for the future of all pentax products then and now and everything they will ever make in the future because this is a key departure for them. Its not just about a green button... -Original Message- From: Mark Roberts [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, September 19, 2005 7:21 AM To: pentax-discuss@pdml.net Subject: Re: green button wars (again) George Sinos [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: JCO - I agree with you in concept. But, in the end, no matter how many folks write to Pentax about their old lenses it's just not going to make any difference. And the fact is, even on the PDML, the center of Pentax enthusiasm, there are only 4-5 people who care much about it. I the wider world this averages out to 0% for all practical purposes.
RE: green button wars (again)
I totally disagree - you don't drop features that are virtually free to include and of great value to a large portion or ANY customers. This part is so damn simple and cheap and RELIABLE- (Pentax has been making them for over 30 years so I seriously doubt they havent been able to debug it yet if there were any design problems...). The decision to drop features is when they are of little value to the customer and expensive to include. This part is just the opposite, its of great value to the customer and dirt cheap to include. K/M lenses were ALL pentax sold for 10 years. That's a ton of great lenses still out there I ask you a simple question - would you have not bought the camera or not bought a next higher model if available that had full K/M support if the total cost was proportionlly higher than the extra cost for this part? We are talking very small change for this part. That's my point. if there was a signifigant cost savings maybe , but not for $10 or $20 off on a $600 camera... And lastly regarding the reliability of the part in question, if you don't use K/M lenses then the reliablity of that function doesn't matter. If you do, then working new and possibly failing someday is far better than a valuable function permanenty removed and never functioning at all... JCO -Original Message- From: Mark Roberts [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, September 19, 2005 7:27 AM To: pentax-discuss@pdml.net Subject: Re: green button wars (again) Gonz [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: For whatever reason, probably because of certain competitive features, the whole cam sensor thing got dropped. Right. They aren't going to include a feature that adds parts and assembly costs (and introduces another electromechanical point of failure - the potentiometer - into the system) unless it's demanded by a large majority of potential purchasers. I.e. they are trying to aim the new DSLR's to a market segment that does not fit your profile. Since they are trying to survive in a very competitive and brutal market right now, its hard to second guess their decisions based on our own little microscopic view of whats good for us. -- Mark Roberts Photography and writing www.robertstech.com
RE: green button wars (again)
pardon the hereing glitch! -Original Message- From: J. C. O'Connell [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, September 19, 2005 9:37 AM To: pentax-discuss@pdml.net Subject: RE: green button wars (again) Fine with me, some people cant handle the truth. I never put anybody in my kill file because theres nothing gained by not hereing all there is to be heard about a subject because if you learn even one thing from a thousand posts you are still learning. Refusing to listen at all never makes you smarter. -Original Message- From: Godfrey DiGiorgi [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, September 19, 2005 1:16 AM To: pentax-discuss@pdml.net Subject: Re: green button wars (again) On Sep 18, 2005, at 7:32 PM, J. C. O'Connell wrote: I CONTINUE TO RANT Rant alone. You're now in my .kill file. Godfrey
Re: green button wars (again)
On Sep 19, 2005, at 6:36 AM, J. C. O'Connell wrote: Fine with me, some people cant handle the truth. No, the expression you're in my .kill file simply means that I'm not interested in responding to your ranting. My .kill file is conceptual: I read all the posts and ignore the ones I deem as being from people who are ranting foolishly. Godfrey
Re: green button wars (again)
Adam Maas wrote: I happen to be the only Pentax DSLR user I've run across in the real world, and I bought my Pentax Film Gear knowing I was going to buy the D. I've met two others. Both are on the PDML. (Yes, I know; if I'd made it to NPW '03 as planned, I'd have met several more.) ERNR
Re: green button wars (again)
On Sep 19, 2005, at 7:10 AM, David Savage wrote: Ultimately of course, people do one of four things: 1. Don't buy and use 'green button' cameras. 2. Buy and use green button cameras. 3. Switch to a competing brand. 4. Emigrate to Peru and live as a goat. Mehehhehhh How's your life as a Peruvian goat working out Christian? I can't speak for Christian, but the grass always seems to be greener on the other side of the Inca temple. Godfrey
Re: green button wars (again)
On 19/9/05, Godfrey DiGiorgi, discombobulated, unleashed: My .kill file is conceptual: I read all the posts and ignore the ones I deem as being from people who are ranting foolishly. Har! That's cheating!! ;-) Cheers, Cotty ___/\__ || (O) | People, Places, Pastiche ||=|http://www.cottysnaps.com _
RE: green button wars (again)
Cant you understand? How many times do I have to post this? THIS ISNT JUST ABOUT A Single green button. This reveals Pentax true NEW terrible philosophy with regards to their product's long term support. The fact is they will drop support of any older products even when it wouldnt cost anything to support itWhy - To force you to buy new products that have the features they are now disabling on old ones without cause. That's not something that doesn't matter for the future and its something they have never done before... This isnt 8 years old because their top line film cameras always supported K/M. JCO -Original Message- From: Adam Maas [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, September 19, 2005 10:33 AM To: pentax-discuss@pdml.net Subject: Re: green button wars (again) No, he doesn't seem to care about one minor issue about Pentax Product Support. And neither does much of the list. And it's an 8 year old issue, not a new issue. -Adam J. C. O'Connell wrote: You don't care about PENTAX PRODUCT SUPPORT in general? I don't believe that and that is the key to my criticism of them on this because if you fully understand what they did you would understand what it means for the future of all pentax products then and now and everything they will ever make in the future because this is a key departure for them. Its not just about a green button... -Original Message- From: Mark Roberts [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, September 19, 2005 7:21 AM To: pentax-discuss@pdml.net Subject: Re: green button wars (again) George Sinos [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: JCO - I agree with you in concept. But, in the end, no matter how many folks write to Pentax about their old lenses it's just not going to make any difference. And the fact is, even on the PDML, the center of Pentax enthusiasm, there are only 4-5 people who care much about it. I the wider world this averages out to 0% for all practical purposes.
RE: green button wars (again)
What is foolish about anything I have posted? It is not an argument to read a body of posts and not have an on-topic rebuttal and then just make a vague FOOLISH categorical classification. If you cant discuss the topic then don't attack me personally without cause. I suggest next time you actually post WHY you think comments in the posts were foolish, if you cant or wont then refrain from posting at all because its not ethical or responsible to behave like that on a list/forum, any list. Some might even call THAT foolish JCO -Original Message- From: Godfrey DiGiorgi [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, September 19, 2005 10:52 AM To: PDML Subject: Re: green button wars (again) On Sep 19, 2005, at 6:36 AM, J. C. O'Connell wrote: Fine with me, some people cant handle the truth. No, the expression you're in my .kill file simply means that I'm not interested in responding to your ranting. My .kill file is conceptual: I read all the posts and ignore the ones I deem as being from people who are ranting foolishly. Godfrey
Re: green button wars (again)
Godfrey DiGiorgi [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Sep 19, 2005, at 6:36 AM, J. C. O'Connell wrote: Fine with me, some people cant handle the truth. No, the expression you're in my .kill file simply means that I'm not interested in responding to your ranting. My .kill file is conceptual: I read all the posts and ignore the ones I deem as being from people who are ranting foolishly. I wouldn't be surprised if the character of the frothing of the few remaining people who object to Pentax's lens compatibility choices weren't one of the things that has led them to conclude they've made the correct decisions. When the ist-D first appeared there was near-unanimous agreement that backwards compatibility was unacceptable. Pentax then introduced the green button fix and the overwhelming majority of the most hardcore Pentax enthusiasts were delighted. It's a delicate balance; controlling production costs, along with establishing a compromise between keeping old-time users happy and, yes, providing an incentive to purchase new lenses rather than keep using old ones. I'd say Pentax hit the compromise perfectly. -- Mark Roberts Photography and writing www.robertstech.com
Re: green button wars (again)
JC, First off, it's not new. This change dates to 1997, with the introduction of the MZ-50. The last top of the line film camera to support the K/M lenses was the MZ-S, which has been discontinued. The current top-end film camera is the *ist, introduced in 2003, without this support. Pentax has discontinued all AF Film bodies with K/M support, the last was the MZ-6. Apart from the MZ-M, the DSLR's are the _ONLY_ cameras in Pentax's line currently with any usable K/M support (*ist only supports them wide-open, MZ-60 doesn't support them at all). It's over, we aren't getting the support back, and we should be damned glad that we got the support we did in the DSLR's, unlike loyal Nikon customers (Like I used to be). -Adam J. C. O'Connell wrote: Cant you understand? How many times do I have to post this? THIS ISNT JUST ABOUT A Single green button. This reveals Pentax true NEW terrible philosophy with regards to their product's long term support. The fact is they will drop support of any older products even when it wouldnt cost anything to support itWhy - To force you to buy new products that have the features they are now disabling on old ones without cause. That's not something that doesn't matter for the future and its something they have never done before... This isnt 8 years old because their top line film cameras always supported K/M. JCO -Original Message- From: Adam Maas [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, September 19, 2005 10:33 AM To: pentax-discuss@pdml.net Subject: Re: green button wars (again) No, he doesn't seem to care about one minor issue about Pentax Product Support. And neither does much of the list. And it's an 8 year old issue, not a new issue. -Adam J. C. O'Connell wrote: You don't care about PENTAX PRODUCT SUPPORT in general? I don't believe that and that is the key to my criticism of them on this because if you fully understand what they did you would understand what it means for the future of all pentax products then and now and everything they will ever make in the future because this is a key departure for them. Its not just about a green button... -Original Message- From: Mark Roberts [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, September 19, 2005 7:21 AM To: pentax-discuss@pdml.net Subject: Re: green button wars (again) George Sinos [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: JCO - I agree with you in concept. But, in the end, no matter how many folks write to Pentax about their old lenses it's just not going to make any difference. And the fact is, even on the PDML, the center of Pentax enthusiasm, there are only 4-5 people who care much about it. I the wider world this averages out to 0% for all practical purposes.
Re: green button wars (again)
It sounds like a plausible enough argument. But I could also argue the other side as well. These parts do cost money. And the mechanical linkage has to be carried into the lens assembly as well. So not only do you have to add that cost to the body, but to the future lens line as well. Pentax may have looked at the future and it was clearly being written by its competitors, who have moved on to a more electronic based linkage. Setting the aperture on the body has become the norm. I'm glad Pentax implemented the green button though of course, but they could have done a better job of it. rg P. J. Alling wrote: Bad analysis, marketing doesn't drop features that don't cost real money. (This didn't cost real money, the RD was already paid for and the part costs pennies, once the tooling is built, there is no real further cost, and it would have been no harder to design the mount to accept the aperture simulator cam). Marketing drops features that cost sales. Some products last, in marketing terms, forever. Lenses are one of those products. I expect that Pentax engineering originally kept the metering cam, it's existence was hinted at in all the *ist-D advance literature, (the web is quite good for re-writing history, most of those original on line documents are gone now), marketing didn't want to be competing with earlier Pentax and 3rd party lenses, many of which work just fine on the *ist-D. So they decided to make the K/M lenses obsolete. They didn't count on the storm of protest that erupted here and on all the Japanese Pentax lists. The green button and AE-Lock kludge was easy to implement, (maybe the software team didn't think so, but who asked them), so that's how they decided to quell the storm. It seems to have worked very well for them. Gonz wrote:
Re: green button wars (again)
How might the green button be improved? Shel [Original Message] From: Gonz I'm glad Pentax implemented the green button though of course, but they could have done a better job of it.
RE: green button wars (again)
Re-installation of the $5 lenscam sensor. jco -Original Message- From: Shel Belinkoff [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, September 19, 2005 11:36 AM To: pentax-discuss@pdml.net Subject: Re: green button wars (again) How might the green button be improved? Shel [Original Message] From: Gonz I'm glad Pentax implemented the green button though of course, but they could have done a better job of it.
Re: green button wars (again)
See my earlier post: Pentax could have had a pseudo-AE mode if they wanted to with just one press of the green button per aperture selection if they wanted to. By taking two measurements, one wide open, one with the aperture down, a simple ratio could be used for all future calculations using the future wide open measurement. If you changed the aperture, you pressed the green button again. rg Shel Belinkoff wrote: How might the green button be improved? Shel [Original Message] From: Gonz I'm glad Pentax implemented the green button though of course, but they could have done a better job of it.
RE: green button wars (again)
Personally, I don't want any more moving parts in my digital SLR. Moving parts wear. Wear creates dust. Dust contaminates the sensor. Keep the moving parts out of my SLR. The green button is an optimum solution. Re-installation of the $5 lenscam sensor. jco -Original Message- From: Shel Belinkoff [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, September 19, 2005 11:36 AM To: pentax-discuss@pdml.net Subject: Re: green button wars (again) How might the green button be improved? Shel [Original Message] From: Gonz I'm glad Pentax implemented the green button though of course, but they could have done a better job of it.
RE: green button wars (again)
YOUR post is illogical, the 1997 camera without the cam sensor was only in one lower model and several higher models with the sensor were still available if you wanted the feature. That's totally different than the total lack of any new cameras with K/M support, even expensive top models that certainly should have it given the very very low cost of implementation. Its one thing to remove a cheap part to save money on a bottom line very low priced camera, its totally different to do that in far more expensive bodies where the cost is extremely relatively small compared to the vastly improved utility it will provide. That's a recent,new, and very bad development from 2003 not 1997. JCO -Original Message- From: Adam Maas [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, September 19, 2005 11:16 AM To: pentax-discuss@pdml.net Subject: Re: green button wars (again) JC, First off, it's not new. This change dates to 1997, with the introduction of the MZ-50. The last top of the line film camera to support the K/M lenses was the MZ-S, which has been discontinued. The current top-end film camera is the *ist, introduced in 2003, without this support. Pentax has discontinued all AF Film bodies with K/M support, the last was the MZ-6. Apart from the MZ-M, the DSLR's are the _ONLY_ cameras in Pentax's line currently with any usable K/M support (*ist only supports them wide-open, MZ-60 doesn't support them at all). It's over, we aren't getting the support back, and we should be damned glad that we got the support we did in the DSLR's, unlike loyal Nikon customers (Like I used to be). -Adam J. C. O'Connell wrote: Cant you understand? How many times do I have to post this? THIS ISNT JUST ABOUT A Single green button. This reveals Pentax true NEW terrible philosophy with regards to their product's long term support. The fact is they will drop support of any older products even when it wouldnt cost anything to support itWhy - To force you to buy new products that have the features they are now disabling on old ones without cause. That's not something that doesn't matter for the future and its something they have never done before... This isnt 8 years old because their top line film cameras always supported K/M. JCO -Original Message- From: Adam Maas [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, September 19, 2005 10:33 AM To: pentax-discuss@pdml.net Subject: Re: green button wars (again) No, he doesn't seem to care about one minor issue about Pentax Product Support. And neither does much of the list. And it's an 8 year old issue, not a new issue. -Adam J. C. O'Connell wrote: You don't care about PENTAX PRODUCT SUPPORT in general? I don't believe that and that is the key to my criticism of them on this because if you fully understand what they did you would understand what it means for the future of all pentax products then and now and everything they will ever make in the future because this is a key departure for them. Its not just about a green button... -Original Message- From: Mark Roberts [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, September 19, 2005 7:21 AM To: pentax-discuss@pdml.net Subject: Re: green button wars (again) George Sinos [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: JCO - I agree with you in concept. But, in the end, no matter how many folks write to Pentax about their old lenses it's just not going to make any difference. And the fact is, even on the PDML, the center of Pentax enthusiasm, there are only 4-5 people who care much about it. I the wider world this averages out to 0% for all practical purposes.
RE: green button wars (again)
Your not being reasonable or logical. Moving parts are not desirable if the same thing can be achieved without moving parts but REMOVAL of basic essential functions just to achieve no moving parts is absurd. That's a really silly argument. It mirrors the earlier reliablity argument. Its better to have a needed function with reliable moving parts than to just remove it completely. Wow. I cant believe the extremes you people are going to try to justify this damn thing. Do you really expect anyone to believe you would really rather keep pushing green buttons and stopping lenses down if you didn't have to just to keep that really pesky $5 moving part out of you camera? In other words if Pentax offered you a free exchange of your camera for one with full K/M functions with the cam sensor in there you wouldn't trade because the camsensor moves? I find that very hard to believe. The lens cam is moving anyway so there is already moving parts and wear dust ( that's really comical). Green Button is optimum for K/M? Your credibility just went down about 10 notches in my opinion JCO -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, September 19, 2005 11:52 AM To: pentax-discuss@pdml.net Subject: RE: green button wars (again) Personally, I don't want any more moving parts in my digital SLR. Moving parts wear. Wear creates dust. Dust contaminates the sensor. Keep the moving parts out of my SLR. The green button is an optimum solution. Re-installation of the $5 lenscam sensor. jco -Original Message- From: Shel Belinkoff [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, September 19, 2005 11:36 AM To: pentax-discuss@pdml.net Subject: Re: green button wars (again) How might the green button be improved? Shel [Original Message] From: Gonz I'm glad Pentax implemented the green button though of course, but they could have done a better job of it.
Re: green button wars (again)
How might the green button be improved? Shel Call it a stop down meter button. That might be hard to put on a small camera, but would slow the list traffic down a bit.:-) Dave
RE: green button wars (again)
The lens cam is moving anyway so there is already moving parts and wear dust ( that's really comical). Green Button is optimum for K/M? Your credibility just went down about 10 notches in my opinion JCO Comical or not, dust is a major problem with Dslr's. Cam lever or button, my impressions of Steady have not changed. D
RE: green button wars (again)
-Original Message- From: Shel Belinkoff [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] How might the green button be improved? Shel it could be marketed to Republicans as the destroy the environment button. :o) === Lo-o-o-o-k! Bob
Re: green button wars (again)
When the ist-D first appeared there was near-unanimous agreement that backwards compatibility was unacceptable. Pentax then introduced the green button fix and the overwhelming majority of the most hardcore Pentax enthusiasts were delighted. It's a delicate balance; controlling production costs, along with establishing a compromise between keeping old-time users happy and, yes, providing an incentive to purchase new lenses rather than keep using old ones. I'd say Pentax hit the compromise perfectly. -- Mark Roberts Photography and writing www.robertstech.com Good note Mark. I was not interested in the istD at first, but when i saw the green button fix, i was sold Dave
Re: green button wars (again)
On 19/9/05, J. C. O'Connell, discombobulated, unleashed: THIS ISNT JUST ABOUT A Single green button. This reveals Pentax true NEW terrible philosophy with regards to their product's long term support. The fact is they will drop support of any older products even when it wouldnt cost anything to support itWhy - To force you to buy new products that have the features they are now disabling on old ones without cause. Are you really surprised? If they don't sell new products, they won't stay in business. Cheers, Cotty ___/\__ || (O) | People, Places, Pastiche ||=|http://www.cottysnaps.com _
RE: green button wars (again)
He didn't say regular dust, he said wear dust from the cam sensor. That's pure speculation to assume there would be any wear dust at all let alone if that it would actually be be signifigant relative to the current normal dust problem and to proclaim green button as optimum for K/M for that reason. He doesn't have any reasonable basis to make that kind of conclusion. jco -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, September 19, 2005 12:26 PM To: pentax-discuss@pdml.net Subject: RE: green button wars (again) The lens cam is moving anyway so there is already moving parts and wear dust ( that's really comical). Green Button is optimum for K/M? Your credibility just went down about 10 notches in my opinion JCO Comical or not, dust is a major problem with Dslr's. Cam lever or button, my impressions of Steady have not changed. D
Re: green button wars (again)
I think you're wrong on this, it is a new issue. The Cameras that didn't have full support were bottom of the line. They were destined to be sold to people who were never going to use anything other than the kit lens, basically a glorified PS camera. With the *ist and *ist-D Pentax abandoned what was left of their old Advanced Amateur/Semi Professional K mount user base, they made up for it a bit with the Green Button Kludge.. This is a surprising turnaround when you realize that the only other major camera manufacture who had any interest in real backward compatibility is Nikon, who had a real Professional Base, but were spotty in their attempts at that. I see it as a symptom of Pentax changing from primarily an engineering company to a marketing company. This transformation has worked well for some, HP and Sony for instance, Kodak is currently trying to do something of the same thing. Many of us think Kodak will fail. I hope Pentax doesn't, I can't afford to replace my current kit with the equivalent from Canon. Adam Maas wrote: No, he doesn't seem to care about one minor issue about Pentax Product Support. And neither does much of the list. And it's an 8 year old issue, not a new issue. -Adam J. C. O'Connell wrote: You don't care about PENTAX PRODUCT SUPPORT in general? I don't believe that and that is the key to my criticism of them on this because if you fully understand what they did you would understand what it means for the future of all pentax products then and now and everything they will ever make in the future because this is a key departure for them. Its not just about a green button... -Original Message- From: Mark Roberts [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, September 19, 2005 7:21 AM To: pentax-discuss@pdml.net Subject: Re: green button wars (again) George Sinos [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: JCO - I agree with you in concept. But, in the end, no matter how many folks write to Pentax about their old lenses it's just not going to make any difference. And the fact is, even on the PDML, the center of Pentax enthusiasm, there are only 4-5 people who care much about it. I the wider world this averages out to 0% for all practical purposes. -- When you're worried or in doubt, Run in circles, (scream and shout).
Re: green button wars (again)
On 19/9/05, [EMAIL PROTECTED], discombobulated, unleashed: Personally, I don't want any more moving parts in my digital SLR. Moving parts wear. Wear creates dust. Dust contaminates the sensor. Keep the moving parts out of my SLR. The green button is an optimum solution. It is by will alone I set my mind in motion. It is by the juice of Sapho that thoughts acquire speed - The lips acquire stains - The stains become a warning - It is by will alone I set my mind in motion. (sorry, couldn't help it ;-) [from 'Dune' by Frank Herbert] Cheers, Cotty ___/\__ || (O) | People, Places, Pastiche ||=|http://www.cottysnaps.com _
Re: green button wars (again)
On Mon, Sep 19, 2005 at 07:08:50AM -0400, Cory Papenfuss wrote: Its done for convenience. You can see your shutter speed real time and can make adjustments if its too fast/slow. Pentax could have had a pseudo-AE mode if they wanted to with just one press of the green button per aperture selection if they wanted to. By taking two measurements, one wide open, one with the aperture down, a simple ratio could be used for all future calculations using the future wide open measurement. If you changed the aperture, you pressed the green button again. I believe you're saying the same thing I've suggested in the past. I have written to Pentax suggesting they implement this as a firmware option. I don't think it should be a firmware option. The existing green button mode is a sort of Hyper-Manual mode, and I really don't think the camera has any business changing settings in manual mode except in response to explicit user actions, no matter how much the light changes. Perhaps Av mode should work the way you suggest with an old lens mounted, but even there I'm not convinced; it's not idiot-proof (forget to push the button after you change aperture and you're asking for a bad exposure). I'd rather have the camera stop down and meter with a half-press of the shutter (or by pushing the AE button); that's as least as useful as the existing full-aperture-only mode.
RE: green button wars (again)
JCO wrote: Your credibility just went down about 10 notches in my opinion HAR! EXCELLENT!
Re: green button wars (again)
You think that would be an improvement. I don't. If I put the camera in manual exposure mode, the it changes the exposure settings when *I* say so, not when it measures a change in the light. That's what auto-exposure modes are for. On Mon, Sep 19, 2005 at 10:46:13AM -0500, Gonz wrote: See my earlier post: Pentax could have had a pseudo-AE mode if they wanted to with just one press of the green button per aperture selection if they wanted to. By taking two measurements, one wide open, one with the aperture down, a simple ratio could be used for all future calculations using the future wide open measurement. If you changed the aperture, you pressed the green button again. rg Shel Belinkoff wrote: How might the green button be improved? Shel [Original Message] From: Gonz I'm glad Pentax implemented the green button though of course, but they could have done a better job of it.
RE: green button wars (again)
Are you surprised at my post?, if they don't offer products AND SUPPORT THEM- they wont stay in business either. Nobody is going to buy great expensive lenses that arent fully usuable in a few years only because they are just old according to pentax, good lenses can last decades not yearsI didn't post this before, but I should have. Lens support is much different than body support. Lenses tend to be expensive, much more expensive than bodies when you buy a system of them and they last way way longer than the bodies. This is why I feel support of the K/M lenses should not have stopped in top models considering the dirt cheap cost ( virtually zero compared to the cost of the DSLR body or lenses) to continue it...Its a no brainer. I don't see how anyone can really arguably say it makes any sense to do what they did other than to force someone to buy new lenses that they really don't need if the required part had not been intentionally removed completely from all available new bodies... JCO -Original Message- From: Cotty [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, September 19, 2005 12:39 PM To: pentax list Subject: Re: green button wars (again) On 19/9/05, J. C. O'Connell, discombobulated, unleashed: THIS ISNT JUST ABOUT A Single green button. This reveals Pentax true NEW terrible philosophy with regards to their product's long term support. The fact is they will drop support of any older products even when it wouldnt cost anything to support itWhy - To force you to buy new products that have the features they are now disabling on old ones without cause. Are you really surprised? If they don't sell new products, they won't stay in business. Cheers, Cotty ___/\__ || (O) | People, Places, Pastiche ||=|http://www.cottysnaps.com _
RE: green button wars (again)
Please clarify: I don't understand what you think I am wrong about based on your post. What's new? what I said?, yes it is a new worse departure for them. Thanks, jco -Original Message- From: P. J. Alling [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, September 19, 2005 12:57 PM To: pentax-discuss@pdml.net Subject: Re: green button wars (again) I think you're wrong on this, it is a new issue. The Cameras that didn't have full support were bottom of the line. They were destined to be sold to people who were never going to use anything other than the kit lens, basically a glorified PS camera. With the *ist and *ist-D Pentax abandoned what was left of their old Advanced Amateur/Semi Professional K mount user base, they made up for it a bit with the Green Button Kludge.. This is a surprising turnaround when you realize that the only other major camera manufacture who had any interest in real backward compatibility is Nikon, who had a real Professional Base, but were spotty in their attempts at that. I see it as a symptom of Pentax changing from primarily an engineering company to a marketing company. This transformation has worked well for some, HP and Sony for instance, Kodak is currently trying to do something of the same thing. Many of us think Kodak will fail. I hope Pentax doesn't, I can't afford to replace my current kit with the equivalent from Canon. Adam Maas wrote: No, he doesn't seem to care about one minor issue about Pentax Product Support. And neither does much of the list. And it's an 8 year old issue, not a new issue. -Adam J. C. O'Connell wrote: You don't care about PENTAX PRODUCT SUPPORT in general? I don't believe that and that is the key to my criticism of them on this because if you fully understand what they did you would understand what it means for the future of all pentax products then and now and everything they will ever make in the future because this is a key departure for them. Its not just about a green button... -Original Message- From: Mark Roberts [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, September 19, 2005 7:21 AM To: pentax-discuss@pdml.net Subject: Re: green button wars (again) George Sinos [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: JCO - I agree with you in concept. But, in the end, no matter how many folks write to Pentax about their old lenses it's just not going to make any difference. And the fact is, even on the PDML, the center of Pentax enthusiasm, there are only 4-5 people who care much about it. I the wider world this averages out to 0% for all practical purposes. -- When you're worried or in doubt, Run in circles, (scream and shout).
Re: green button wars (again)
I agree, this functionality would be in the AE setting, not the manual. rg John Francis wrote: You think that would be an improvement. I don't. If I put the camera in manual exposure mode, the it changes the exposure settings when *I* say so, not when it measures a change in the light. That's what auto-exposure modes are for. On Mon, Sep 19, 2005 at 10:46:13AM -0500, Gonz wrote: See my earlier post: Pentax could have had a pseudo-AE mode if they wanted to with just one press of the green button per aperture selection if they wanted to. By taking two measurements, one wide open, one with the aperture down, a simple ratio could be used for all future calculations using the future wide open measurement. If you changed the aperture, you pressed the green button again. rg Shel Belinkoff wrote: How might the green button be improved? Shel [Original Message] From: Gonz I'm glad Pentax implemented the green button though of course, but they could have done a better job of it.
Re: green button wars (again)
My simple solution would have been to drop the linkage on any further lenses that didn't implement the aperture ring, (oh yes they did that didn't they), simple solution. No one was going to buy one of them to use on their classic film camera anyway, with no way to control the diaphragm mechanism. There's still a dearth of lenses available. Another reason that Pentax D-SLR sales are not meeting expectations. If you buy Canon or Nikon you have full lines of lenses. So most users won't buy more than the kit zoom, they're still available. Pentax, well Pentaximaging (USA) shows a full line of both primes and zooms but try to buy them. Gonz wrote: It sounds like a plausible enough argument. But I could also argue the other side as well. These parts do cost money. And the mechanical linkage has to be carried into the lens assembly as well. So not only do you have to add that cost to the body, but to the future lens line as well. Pentax may have looked at the future and it was clearly being written by its competitors, who have moved on to a more electronic based linkage. Setting the aperture on the body has become the norm. I'm glad Pentax implemented the green button though of course, but they could have done a better job of it. rg P. J. Alling wrote: Bad analysis, marketing doesn't drop features that don't cost real money. (This didn't cost real money, the RD was already paid for and the part costs pennies, once the tooling is built, there is no real further cost, and it would have been no harder to design the mount to accept the aperture simulator cam). Marketing drops features that cost sales. Some products last, in marketing terms, forever. Lenses are one of those products. I expect that Pentax engineering originally kept the metering cam, it's existence was hinted at in all the *ist-D advance literature, (the web is quite good for re-writing history, most of those original on line documents are gone now), marketing didn't want to be competing with earlier Pentax and 3rd party lenses, many of which work just fine on the *ist-D. So they decided to make the K/M lenses obsolete. They didn't count on the storm of protest that erupted here and on all the Japanese Pentax lists. The green button and AE-Lock kludge was easy to implement, (maybe the software team didn't think so, but who asked them), so that's how they decided to quell the storm. It seems to have worked very well for them. Gonz wrote: -- When you're worried or in doubt, Run in circles, (scream and shout).
Re: green button wars (again)
On Mon, Sep 19, 2005 at 11:14:16AM -0400, Mark Roberts wrote: When the ist-D first appeared there was near-unanimous agreement that backwards compatibility was unacceptable. That's a bit of an exaggeration. Even then, there were a significant number of people for whom it wasn't an issue. And even among those who cared, there was a wide range of opinions as to whether this was anything more than a minor flaw which might, perhaps, have been done a little better.
Re: green button wars (again)
That requires a linear aperature mechanism, which only A and later lenses have (That's one of the major changes between K/M and A lenses) -Adam Gonz wrote: See my earlier post: Pentax could have had a pseudo-AE mode if they wanted to with just one press of the green button per aperture selection if they wanted to. By taking two measurements, one wide open, one with the aperture down, a simple ratio could be used for all future calculations using the future wide open measurement. If you changed the aperture, you pressed the green button again. rg Shel Belinkoff wrote: How might the green button be improved? Shel [Original Message] From: Gonz I'm glad Pentax implemented the green button though of course, but they could have done a better job of it.
RE: green button wars (again)
Dust is dust is'nt it. I have found small metal filings inside my D2H that service attributes to wear from the mount.Its been brought up on several Nikon lists that it happens to a number of users. One reason i dont use a bruch type sensor cleaning unit. Just thought you would like to know that.:) D He didn't say regular dust, he said wear dust from the cam sensor. That's pure speculation to assume there would be any wear dust at all let alone if that it would actually be be signifigant relative to the current normal dust problem and to proclaim green button as optimum for K/M for that reason. He doesn't have any reasonable basis to make that kind of conclusion. jco -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, September 19, 2005 12:26 PM To: pentax-discuss@pdml.net Subject: RE: green button wars (again) The lens cam is moving anyway so there is already moving parts and wear dust ( that's really comical). Green Button is optimum for K/M? Your credibility just went down about 10 notches in my opinion JCO Comical or not, dust is a major problem with Dslr's. Cam lever or button, my impressions of Steady have not changed. D
Re: green button wars (again)
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Personally, I don't want any more moving parts in my digital SLR. Moving parts wear. Wear creates dust. Dust contaminates the sensor. Keep the moving parts out of my SLR. The green button is an optimum solution. Between the mechanical linkage and the potentiometer, it also introduces two more potential points of failure. -- Mark Roberts Photography and writing www.robertstech.com
Re: green button wars (again)
No actually, it can be done without the mechanism, because even though you do not know the actual aperture you are using, when you stop down it gives you a meter reading, and when you are full open, you have another meter reading. The ratio between the two tells you how much you need to compensate for when the light changes. rg Adam Maas wrote: That requires a linear aperature mechanism, which only A and later lenses have (That's one of the major changes between K/M and A lenses) -Adam Gonz wrote: See my earlier post: Pentax could have had a pseudo-AE mode if they wanted to with just one press of the green button per aperture selection if they wanted to. By taking two measurements, one wide open, one with the aperture down, a simple ratio could be used for all future calculations using the future wide open measurement. If you changed the aperture, you pressed the green button again. rg Shel Belinkoff wrote: How might the green button be improved? Shel [Original Message] From: Gonz I'm glad Pentax implemented the green button though of course, but they could have done a better job of it.
Re: green button wars (again)
I use this HyperManual style all the time. In fact, for both K and FA lenses, the behavior is the same. For K lenses I turn the aperture ring and then meter where I want by pressing the green button (the camera sets the shutter speed). For FA lenses I turn the body dial to set the aperture where I want and then meter where I want by pressing the green button (the camera leaves the aperture alone and sets the shutter speed, just like the K). I rely on this behavior for both types of lenses. So I would not want that behavior to change. -- Best regards, Bruce Monday, September 19, 2005, 10:02:44 AM, you wrote: JF You think that would be an improvement. I don't. JF If I put the camera in manual exposure mode, the it JF changes the exposure settings when *I* say so, not JF when it measures a change in the light. That's what JF auto-exposure modes are for. JF On Mon, Sep 19, 2005 at 10:46:13AM -0500, Gonz wrote: See my earlier post: Pentax could have had a pseudo-AE mode if they wanted to with just one press of the green button per aperture selection if they wanted to. By taking two measurements, one wide open, one with the aperture down, a simple ratio could be used for all future calculations using the future wide open measurement. If you changed the aperture, you pressed the green button again. rg Shel Belinkoff wrote: How might the green button be improved? Shel [Original Message] From: Gonz I'm glad Pentax implemented the green button though of course, but they could have done a better job of it.
Re: green button wars (again)
The green button is also a point of failure, which would receive much less use if the aperture simulator was there. Mark Roberts wrote: [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Personally, I don't want any more moving parts in my digital SLR. Moving parts wear. Wear creates dust. Dust contaminates the sensor. Keep the moving parts out of my SLR. The green button is an optimum solution. Between the mechanical linkage and the potentiometer, it also introduces two more potential points of failure. -- When you're worried or in doubt, Run in circles, (scream and shout).
RE: green button wars (again)
My point was that there is no evidence whatsoever that the cam sensor would emit dust at all or even if it did if it would be signifigant RELATIVE to the normal BASIS dust problem that already exists. If there was NO basis dust problem already and it created one that would be a valid point but there is already a dust problem and theres no evidence to assume sensor would necessicarily create ANY additional dust or ANY siginifigant dust relative to the current dust problem...And I don't believe it would based on my experience with many types of pots I have seen over the years in my electronics work experience. He didn't state the sensor might cause a dust problem he said it would, and the sensor removal is ideal optimization of K/M lenses in a DSLR both of which are speculative statements at best, false at worse. jco -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, September 19, 2005 1:32 PM To: pentax-discuss@pdml.net Subject: RE: green button wars (again) Dust is dust is'nt it. I have found small metal filings inside my D2H that service attributes to wear from the mount.Its been brought up on several Nikon lists that it happens to a number of users. One reason i dont use a bruch type sensor cleaning unit. Just thought you would like to know that.:) D He didn't say regular dust, he said wear dust from the cam sensor. That's pure speculation to assume there would be any wear dust at all let alone if that it would actually be be signifigant relative to the current normal dust problem and to proclaim green button as optimum for K/M for that reason. He doesn't have any reasonable basis to make that kind of conclusion. jco -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, September 19, 2005 12:26 PM To: pentax-discuss@pdml.net Subject: RE: green button wars (again) The lens cam is moving anyway so there is already moving parts and wear dust ( that's really comical). Green Button is optimum for K/M? Your credibility just went down about 10 notches in my opinion JCO Comical or not, dust is a major problem with Dslr's. Cam lever or button, my impressions of Steady have not changed. D
Re: green button wars (again)
P. J. Alling [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The green button is also a point of failure, With vastly greater MTBF than any potentiometer. which would receive much less use if the aperture simulator was there. But it would still be there (on the D, anyway - the DS doesn't have it). -- Mark Roberts Photography and writing www.robertstech.com
RE: green button wars (again)
NOT PROVIDING THE FUNCTION AT ALL is far worse than a long term possible or potential failure of the function that MIGHT happen, it's a guaranteed immediate point of failure. HOW MANY TIMES do I have to say this? You don't simply remove key functions because they might fail someday, you only remove features that get too expensive for the benefit they provide and this part is so dirt cheap and provides tremendous benefit for dozens of excellent PENTAX brand K/M lenses that it shouldn't be deleted in top line $600 plus bodies at this time IMHO. jco -Original Message- From: Mark Roberts [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, September 19, 2005 1:43 PM To: pentax-discuss@pdml.net Subject: Re: green button wars (again) [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Personally, I don't want any more moving parts in my digital SLR. Moving parts wear. Wear creates dust. Dust contaminates the sensor. Keep the moving parts out of my SLR. The green button is an optimum solution. Between the mechanical linkage and the potentiometer, it also introduces two more potential points of failure. -- Mark Roberts Photography and writing www.robertstech.com
Re: green button wars (again)
Mark Roberts wrote: P. J. Alling [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The green button is also a point of failure, With vastly greater MTBF than any potentiometer. The camera will be well and truly obsolete before this is likely to happen. I've got 35 year old cameras with their potentiometers still working fine. Since I'm not using much film these days it's unlikely they will ever fail. I do not foresee a 35 year lifetime for my *ist-D, sadly. Even if it had one I probably won't see it. which would receive much less use if the aperture simulator was there. But it would still be there (on the D, anyway - the DS doesn't have it). -- When you're worried or in doubt, Run in circles, (scream and shout).
Re: green button wars (again)
P. J. Alling wrote: I think you're wrong on this, it is a new issue. The Cameras that didn't have full support were bottom of the line. They were destined to be sold to people who were never going to use anything other than the kit lens, basically a glorified PS camera. in response to Adam's comment: And it's an 8 year old issue, not a new issue. I agree with Adam. It's not a new issue. I was rather annoyed when the crippled mount first appeared because I saw it as the beginning of the process. Pentax was now making bodies that I would not buy because they could not use my Pentax lenses. Similarly when Pentax produced lenses without aperture rings. Here were some new lenses that could not be used on existing bodies (including the ZX-5n, which was current). So, to me, when they came up with a crippled-mount DSLR I was disappointed but I certainly did not think it was anything *new* -- it was the continuation of a process already begun. Bottom of the line cameras aren't only for the idiot novices but also potentially backup bodies for the more advanced users, and Pentax marketing had remarked on that in selling earlier generations of such cameras. The crippled-mount bottom-of-the-line bodies were not suitable for that use, so in that way could be seen as breaking faith with those people. As I commented above, they were bodies that I could not even consider purchasing -- either as backup bodies for my own use, or for family members with whom I would like to share lenses. In any case, even if you disagree that the writing was on the wall the moment they introduced the ZX-50, the *istD and its green-button compromise have been with us for TWO years now, which means it's not news either.
Re: green button wars (again)
On Sep 19, 2005, at 11:09 AM, P. J. Alling wrote: When you're worried or in doubt,Run in circles, (scream and shout). I think this describes JCO's hysterical rantings on this topic perfectly. The irony is that PJ has offered it to us. ];-) Godfrey new subscriber to the green-button-rant-mailing-list
RE: green button wars (again)
JCO asked: HOW MANY TIMES do I have to say this? Hmm, based on past performance I would estimate that you're going to say this SEVERAL THOUSAND TIMES. I suggest that we unanimously name JCO as THE WINNER of this debate. Apparently, that is the only conclusion that will be acceptable.
