Re: Film: And the Dead Shall Rise...
On Fri, 30 Jan 2004 09:06:46 +0200, you wrote: It might be a good idea to clean some area in the basement and offer to take away that old and useless film only processor for free when they start to throw them out. Now that would be a good thing to do... I think the notion of getting a film processor cheap as it becomes outmoded has to be balanced with the cost of keeping if filled with usable chemistry. But there should be lots of bargains, at least at printing equipment dealers, for certain darkroom accessories like safe lights, timers, large film cutters, vacuum contact frames, etc. I threw out a fully functional roller transport processor about five years ago. We used it to process litho film. It had three temperature controlled tanks with replenishment, plus in-line water wash and dryer. It was designed to handle sheet or cartridge film from 8 to 24 wide by 10 min length up to 250' or so. It was a production machine, with six gallon tanks. As we gradually processed fewer and fewer negs during our switch to direct-to-plate, the cost of keeping it filled with fresh chemistry became prohibitive on a per-neg basis. I tried to sell or give it away in several venues, but got no takers. It was 3' wide, 6' long, and 3.5' tall, plus two large replenishment tanks, and weighed three hundred pounds or so empty, and required a minimum film size of 8x10 plus umpteen gallons of chemistry, so I didn't think about taking it home. There have been hundreds of perfectly good machines thrown away in the printing industry in the past five years. Huge flatbed through-the-wall process cameras, excellent small-footprint vertical cameras, small and large roller processors, tanks, trays, safe lights, light tables, stripping tables, many other things used only in a film-based production work flow. All gone to the landfill, or in some cases sold for a pittance to printing equipment dealers where they now gather dust. I rescued the lenses off my last process camera, for old times sake, plus a digital timer/meter and light from a contact frame. Reminders of a different era in the printing business. -- John Mustarde www.photolin.com
Re: Film: And the Dead Shall Rise...
On 29/1/04, [EMAIL PROTECTED] disgorged: I can make beer in my basement, and in sufficient quantity and quality to keep several families of drunks happy. OTOH, I don't have a film coating plant down there. There is a huge difference between making film and making beer. Sorry, your comparison is a bit flat. ...unlike, one hopes, the beer. Cheers, Cotty ___/\__ || (O) | People, Places, Pastiche ||=| www.macads.co.uk/snaps _ Free UK Mac Ads www.macads.co.uk
Re: Film: And the Dead Shall Rise...
William Robb [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In affluent parts of the world, I expect enough consumers will go to digital to dictate what every one else will do as well. snip As far as film hanging around because of non computerized parts of the world will be using it, I have a few thoughts: Consumer photography is a luxury item. In order to have consumer photography, you must have a market with a certain amount of affluence. Once a society has become affluent enough to have consumer photography, it will generally also have things like flush toilets and electric lights. Computers won't be far behind that, and so much for film photography in that neck of the woods. Digital prints should be less expensive than projected prints anyway. There is far less labour involved. We have it set up so that the customer does most of the bookwork, so there is a time savings there, and we don't have to handle film or do as much quality control inspection to the prints. What's interesting to speculate to me is what will happen in places where there is *no* film processing infrastructure now. Digital kiosks are much less expensive, smaller and easier to manage than C-41 minilabs. I wouldn't be surprised if some places go straight to digital without ever getting film-based photography at all, just as there were surely some places a hundred years ago that experienced photography first as film and never went through the wet plate phase. -- Mark Roberts Photography and writing www.robertstech.com
Re: Film: And the Dead Shall Rise...
Hi, What's interesting to speculate to me is what will happen in places where there is *no* film processing infrastructure now. Digital kiosks are much less expensive, smaller and easier to manage than C-41 minilabs. I wouldn't be surprised if some places go straight to digital without ever getting film-based photography at all, just as there were surely some places a hundred years ago that experienced photography first as film and never went through the wet plate phase. a country needs a whole lot of other infrastructure in place to support computers. You can get a traditional photography business going without electricity if you really want to. That's what happened in Europe. -- Cheers, Bob
Re: Film: And the Dead Shall Rise...
Bob W [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: What's interesting to speculate to me is what will happen in places where there is *no* film processing infrastructure now. Digital kiosks are much less expensive, smaller and easier to manage than C-41 minilabs. I wouldn't be surprised if some places go straight to digital without ever getting film-based photography at all, just as there were surely some places a hundred years ago that experienced photography first as film and never went through the wet plate phase. a country needs a whole lot of other infrastructure in place to support computers. True. But you don't need computers for digital photography these days (except in the most pedantic sense: that there computer chips built into digital cameras, printers and card-reader/printer kiosks). You can get a traditional photography business going without electricity if you really want to. I don't think you could get a modern C-41 or E6 photography business going without electricity now. And that's the kind of thing consumers want. I am really talking about consumer get your prints done at the corner shop photography here. That's what happened in Europe. But I don't think that'll happen again. I expect photography won't get to places where it doesn't exist now until *after* electricity reaches them. -- Mark Roberts Photography and writing www.robertstech.com
Re: Film: And the Dead Shall Rise...
There are very few places in the world where there isn't film processing infrastructure. Commercial Color processing might not be available from a mini-lab but BW processing can be done everywhere that water is liquid and it's not so hot that people burst into flames, (which I suppose leaves out parts of Texas but I digress), and it is. It doesn't require large amounts of electricity and even enlarging isn't that technically demanding. At 07:23 AM 1/29/04, you wrote: William Robb [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In affluent parts of the world, I expect enough consumers will go to digital to dictate what every one else will do as well. snip As far as film hanging around because of non computerized parts of the world will be using it, I have a few thoughts: Consumer photography is a luxury item. In order to have consumer photography, you must have a market with a certain amount of affluence. Once a society has become affluent enough to have consumer photography, it will generally also have things like flush toilets and electric lights. Computers won't be far behind that, and so much for film photography in that neck of the woods. Digital prints should be less expensive than projected prints anyway. There is far less labour involved. We have it set up so that the customer does most of the bookwork, so there is a time savings there, and we don't have to handle film or do as much quality control inspection to the prints. What's interesting to speculate to me is what will happen in places where there is *no* film processing infrastructure now. Digital kiosks are much less expensive, smaller and easier to manage than C-41 minilabs. I wouldn't be surprised if some places go straight to digital without ever getting film-based photography at all, just as there were surely some places a hundred years ago that experienced photography first as film and never went through the wet plate phase. -- Mark Roberts Photography and writing www.robertstech.com I drink to make other people interesting. -- George Jean Nathan
Re: Film: And the Dead Shall Rise...
That makes the rather silly assumption that they would have to go through all the steps it took to invent the technology to implement the technology today. What you are saying is they would have to use film because they could not afford the batteries for a digital camera. I say, If they could not afford batteries, they could not afford film. You may need a lot of infrastructure to support a 1950's mainframe, but you need none to support a modern laptop. I am at least as retro as anyone on this list, but even I find some of these anti-digital arguments specious. Bob W wrote: a country needs a whole lot of other infrastructure in place to support computers. You can get a traditional photography business going without electricity if you really want to. That's what happened in Europe. -- graywolf http://graywolfphoto.com You might as well accept people as they are, you are not going to be able to change them anyway.
Re: Film: And the Dead Shall Rise...
- Original Message - From: graywolf Subject: Re: Film: And the Dead Shall Rise... I am at least as retro as anyone on this list, but even I find some of these anti-digital arguments specious. The really specious arguement is that somehow, a population of people living in grass huts is somehow going to buy enough film to keep an industry afloat. It ain't gonna happen that way. William Robb
Re: Film: And the Dead Shall Rise...
Maybe not, but what makes you think that film couldn't be sustained by small local producers. Take a lesson from the Micro Brewery's. The largest, Boston Brewing Co. has grown to a size that it no longer qualifies as Micro but they make at most 1% or 2% of the product produced by the major brewers. Yet it's sold nationwide in the US and often sells for no more than a 50% premium over the usual swill. Why should film be any different. If the majors stop making it someone else will. At 02:55 PM 1/29/04, you wrote: - Original Message - From: graywolf Subject: Re: Film: And the Dead Shall Rise... I am at least as retro as anyone on this list, but even I find some of these anti-digital arguments specious. The really specious arguement is that somehow, a population of people living in grass huts is somehow going to buy enough film to keep an industry afloat. It ain't gonna happen that way. William Robb I drink to make other people interesting. -- George Jean Nathan
Re: Film: And the Dead Shall Rise...
Hi, I was not making that assumption or making that claim about film and batteries, and I'm not making anti-digital arguments. You're putting words into my mouth. When was the last time you were in a 3rd world country? No need for infrastructure to support a laptop? You make me laugh! -- Cheers, Bob Thursday, January 29, 2004, 6:50:11 PM, you wrote: That makes the rather silly assumption that they would have to go through all the steps it took to invent the technology to implement the technology today. What you are saying is they would have to use film because they could not afford the batteries for a digital camera. I say, If they could not afford batteries, they could not afford film. You may need a lot of infrastructure to support a 1950's mainframe, but you need none to support a modern laptop. I am at least as retro as anyone on this list, but even I find some of these anti-digital arguments specious. Bob W wrote: a country needs a whole lot of other infrastructure in place to support computers. You can get a traditional photography business going without electricity if you really want to. That's what happened in Europe.
Re: Film: And the Dead Shall Rise...
Peter Alling [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Maybe not, but what makes you think that film couldn't be sustained by small local producers. Take a lesson from the Micro Brewery's. snip No offense, but my specious argument meter just pegged so hard that the needle bent. -- Mark Roberts Photography and writing www.robertstech.com
Re: Film: And the Dead Shall Rise...
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Bob posted: I was not making that assumption or making that claim about film and batteries, and I'm not making anti-digital arguments. You're putting words into my mouth. When was the last time you were in a 3rd world country? No need for infrastructure to support a laptop? You make me laugh! It might be helpful if you could be very clear about what, to you, constitutes a Third World country. Yorkshire ;-) -- Mark Roberts Photography and writing www.robertstech.com
Re: Film: And the Dead Shall Rise...
Now that was funny, LOL. Norm Mark Roberts wrote: [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It might be helpful if you could be very clear about what, to you, constitutes a Third World country. Yorkshire ;-)
Re: Film: And the Dead Shall Rise...
Hi, When was the last time you were in a 3rd world country? No need for infrastructure to support a laptop? You make me laugh! It might be helpful if you could be very clear about what, to you, constitutes a Third World country. My mother lives in one. With a laptop and a digital camera. I had in mind most of sub-saharan Africa. Where does your mother live? Are you claiming that your mother's laptop runs in a country with no infrastructure? When I talk about a country having no infrastructure I mean that in most parts of the country, or for most of the population, there is no electricity. I'm intrigued to hear that graywolf thinks laptops needs no infrastructure. Do they run on solar power? Clockwork? -- Cheers, Bob
Re: Film: And the Dead Shall Rise...
Those hand chargeable flashlights and radios. Think of it, the next big thing in personal computing, a exercise bicycle attached to a generator attached to a PC. It gives a whole new meaning to cruising the Internet. Maybe it might even get Americans to loose a few pounds. At 06:21 PM 1/29/04, you wrote: Hi, When was the last time you were in a 3rd world country? No need for infrastructure to support a laptop? You make me laugh! It might be helpful if you could be very clear about what, to you, constitutes a Third World country. My mother lives in one. With a laptop and a digital camera. I had in mind most of sub-saharan Africa. Where does your mother live? Are you claiming that your mother's laptop runs in a country with no infrastructure? When I talk about a country having no infrastructure I mean that in most parts of the country, or for most of the population, there is no electricity. I'm intrigued to hear that graywolf thinks laptops needs no infrastructure. Do they run on solar power? Clockwork? -- Cheers, Bob I drink to make other people interesting. -- George Jean Nathan
Re: Film: And the Dead Shall Rise...
I see that the assuption I just posted, was correct. -- Bob W wrote: Hi, When was the last time you were in a 3rd world country? No need for infrastructure to support a laptop? You make me laugh! It might be helpful if you could be very clear about what, to you, constitutes a Third World country. My mother lives in one. With a laptop and a digital camera. I had in mind most of sub-saharan Africa. Where does your mother live? Are you claiming that your mother's laptop runs in a country with no infrastructure? When I talk about a country having no infrastructure I mean that in most parts of the country, or for most of the population, there is no electricity. I'm intrigued to hear that graywolf thinks laptops needs no infrastructure. Do they run on solar power? Clockwork? -- graywolf http://graywolfphoto.com You might as well accept people as they are, you are not going to be able to change them anyway.
Re: Film: And the Dead Shall Rise...
I guess the african bushmen, who chose to continue to live in the bush would have a hard time dealing with digital cameras. Though it seems to me they would also have a hard time dealing with film too. Somehow, I never considered 3 world to mean primitives. Something tells me that someone who lives in a city, and has a disposable income is not what Bob W considers a 3rd worlder, but most of us do. No one who has no disposable income, is much of a market for anything. Whether they live in the US, and there are a lot of them here, or in Europe, or the veldt of africa does not matter. I myself may be at the lowest level where hobbies, are possible, as mine do take food out of my mouth as it is. So someone pushing a shopping cart down the street with all their worldly belongings in it is not going to buy much of anything. -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Bob posted: I was not making that assumption or making that claim about film and batteries, and I'm not making anti-digital arguments. You're putting words into my mouth. When was the last time you were in a 3rd world country? No need for infrastructure to support a laptop? You make me laugh! It might be helpful if you could be very clear about what, to you, constitutes a Third World country. My mother lives in one. With a laptop and a digital camera. -- graywolf http://graywolfphoto.com You might as well accept people as they are, you are not going to be able to change them anyway.
Re: Film: And the Dead Shall Rise...
- Original Message - From: Peter Alling Subject: Re: Film: And the Dead Shall Rise... Maybe not, but what makes you think that film couldn't be sustained by small local producers. Take a lesson from the Micro Brewery's. The largest, Boston Brewing Co. has grown to a size that it no longer qualifies as Micro but they make at most 1% or 2% of the product produced by the major brewers. Yet it's sold nationwide in the US and often sells for no more than a 50% premium over the usual swill. Why should film be any different. If the majors stop making it someone else will. I can make beer in my basement, and in sufficient quantity and quality to keep several families of drunks happy. OTOH, I don't have a film coating plant down there. There is a huge difference between making film and making beer. Sorry, your comparison is a bit flat. William Robb
Re: Film: And the Dead Shall Rise...
You miss my point, or maybe I wasn't being clear. Making beer in commercial quantities is an industrial process so is making film. Making glass plates is a hobby, (or would be if I were considerably more masochistic than I actually am), so is making beer in your basement. Why in the world would I make my own glass, do you grow your own wheat? At 08:18 PM 1/29/04, you wrote: - Original Message - From: Peter Alling Subject: Re: Film: And the Dead Shall Rise... I can make glass plates at home, it's a bitch but I can do it. Making individual glass plates is the equivalent of making beer in the basement. Well, no, not even close. But if you want to come closer to what making film is like, maybe you will be making your own glass as well? Also, glass plates are not film, and are pretty useless to people who want to shoot more than 5 pictures a day. William Robb I drink to make other people interesting. -- George Jean Nathan
Re: Film: And the Dead Shall Rise...
Hi, When was the last time you were in a 3rd world country? No need for infrastructure to support a laptop? You make me laugh! It might be helpful if you could be very clear about what, to you, constitutes a Third World country. My mother lives in one. With a laptop and a digital camera. I had in mind most of sub-saharan Africa. Where does your mother live? Are you claiming that your mother's laptop runs in a country with no infrastructure? When I talk about a country having no infrastructure I mean that in most parts of the country, or for most of the population, there is no electricity. No, there's infrastructure but not up to First World standards. She's in the Caribbean, and she lives in a city. My point was mainly that there's a wide range of Third World countries; they can't really all be lumped together. I'm intrigued to hear that graywolf thinks laptops needs no infrastructure. Do they run on solar power? Clockwork? I'll be leaving it to graywolf to say what he thinks. ERN
Re: Film: And the Dead Shall Rise...
-Original Message- Paul (A digital purchaser who believes film will outlive most of us on this forum.) I fully agree. I believe film will outlive all of us. Not dozens of different emulsions and not available in every store but there will be film for a very long time. If Kodak stops making film altogether I'd think they will license/sell the technology to some (smaller) 3rd party who will start to make some of the emulsions for the crazy film people. If all the big film companies of today stop making film (I won't believe this for a second) there will be a huge market for new smaller film producers. I am not saying this because I want to stay with film. Right now all my large format (4x5 slide) enlargements are done in my digital darkroom and I am slowly starting to think of a move towards digital in the smaller format (35mm) as well but I will not stop using film because the film is dying. It just occurred to me that one of the arguments of buying a digital (SLR) camera today is the fact of film going away. Crazy... I feel like all the talk about film going away or not is mostly a waste of time. Get back to me after 50 years and we'll see. When we get back in 2050 I can show you some Kodachrome slides from 2004 while we try to connect a CD-ROM/DVD player to the new biocomputer to salvage some digital images from those ancient CR- ROM disks ;-) At least is was fun writing all this, Antti-Pekka --- Antti-Pekka Virjonen Computec Oy, Turku Finland Gsm: +358-500-789 753 www.computec.fi * www.estera.fi
Re: Film: And the Dead Shall Rise...
On Tue, 27 Jan 2004 17:05:35 -0800, Jim Apilado wrote: Sometimes I wonder if those shooting digital would like to see the era of film end ASAP. I wouldn't. Digital is not good enough yet to replace film completely. It will one day, I know that. Unfortunately people are getting used to lower quality in all things because it's a more technological solution and therefore MUST be better. For the time being I get better quality from my MZ-S and Kodachrome than I do from the *istD. For a lot of things though I don't need that and I must admit that digital has all but replaced my neg shooting and I have an MZ-S sitting around with little to do - I'm not getting rid of it yet, sorry to those who suddenly saw a bargain. I'm also throwing images onto 2 CD's and testing them before removing them from my hard drive - disk 13 currently being filled. Leon http://www.bluering.org.au http://www.bluering.org.au/leon
Re: Film: And the Dead Shall Rise...
On Tue, 27 Jan 2004, Paul Stenquist wrote: I think there are some photographers who have an unconscious need to validate their digital purchase. The demise of film would do just that. Paul (A digital purchaser who believes film will outlive most of us on this forum.) Thank you Paul. My interest is largely landscape and I don't see any of the major British landscape photographers rushing to digital any time soon. Joe Cornish still has his Ebony, Charlie Waite still has his 'blad, Nick Meers his Xpan and in last months 'Practical Photography' magazine David Noton admitted he was still using Nikon 35mm and Velvia on assignment where it counted. Not everyone asks what's new? all the time. Some of us still ask what's best?. Hopefully there will be enough of us for a few years yet. Chris (a digital user who thinks film has soul [sorry Cotty])
Re: Film: And the Dead Shall Rise...
On 28/1/04, [EMAIL PROTECTED] disgorged: Chris (a digital user who thinks film has soul [sorry Cotty]) Don't apologise! I agree. Cheers, Cotty ___/\__ || (O) | People, Places, Pastiche ||=| www.macads.co.uk/snaps _ Free UK Mac Ads www.macads.co.uk
Re: Film: And the Dead Shall Rise...
Hello Antti-Pekka, My personal belief is that it is NOT the lack of film availabilty that will be the issue, but the cost to buy and PROCESS/PRINT it. Depending on where you are in the world, this may be the case. Here in the USA, the number of 1 hour minilabs is starting to drop unless they cough up enough to buy the digital labs. The price per print will slowly rise on the film side and may slowly decline on the digital side. Areas of the world where computerization is lower, film will be more dominant. In other words, it is an economic decision, not a technological or quality one. Whatever is the cheapest to use will become the norm. So where I live, digital is coming on strong. -- Best regards, Bruce Wednesday, January 28, 2004, 4:21:46 AM, you wrote: -Original Message- where have you read this? film is going away because the people who used to buy the most aren't buying it. Herb APV I did not read it anywhere. Like I said it just occurred to me that APV this is used as one of the reasons why to go digital. I have heard APV recently this kind of statements (locally)... when someone is APV trying to convince him/hersel why he/she should buy a digital camera APV right now (a good reason to convince oneself to buy a DSLR which APV does not have all the specs one would really want ;-). APV It's like going to panic and selling current film gear because APV the value of the gear will drop pretty soon because there will be APV no film available. This sounds like a ridiculous reason but I've APV seen more crazy ones when someone is thinking of buying a new APV car for example :-) These are the kind of reasons rehearsed to be APV presented to the wife... APV It does not have anything to do with the fact that film market APV is shrinking (not going away) because the people who used to buy APV it aren't buying it any more (because they use digicams). APV A film company stopping to make film altogether because the market APV is no longer growing is another thing. The film market is still APV HUGE globally and will be for a very long time (not just the next APV couple of years) so there will be plenty of film available. APV This is just my view of what will happen. One cannot prove it the APV way or the other, we need to get back to this question after some APV 10-20 years to see if the film is still available or not. I have APV been wrong before... but usually I have been right ;-) APV Antti-Pekka APV --- APV Antti-Pekka Virjonen APV Computec Oy, Turku Finland APV Gsm: +358-500-789 753 APV www.computec.fi * www.estera.fi
Re: Film: And the Dead Shall Rise...
Paul Stenquist [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I expect that color film use five to ten years from now will at least equal black and white film use today. Now that's the first film-to-digital transition speculation that makes sense to me. Well put. -- Mark Roberts Photography and writing www.robertstech.com
Re: Film: And the Dead Shall Rise...
- Original Message - From: Paul Stenquist Subject: OT: Film: And the Dead Shall Rise... From Steve Blumenkranz as posted on the photo.net Leica Photography board: Today I received an email from Kodak clarifying their position regarding their intent as regards their future as a supplier of film. To make a short story shorter they state an intenton of continuing to support the film side of their business and that they will be bringing out four new consumer films within the next month. The message may be viewed at [EMAIL PROTECTED] It remains to be seen if the new films are a re label, or new emulsions. It also remains to be seen as to how long this commitment lasts. William Robb
Re: Film: And the Dead Shall Rise...
Sometimes I wonder if those shooting digital would like to see the era of film end ASAP. Jim A. From: William Robb [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2004 15:56:32 -0600 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Film: And the Dead Shall Rise... Resent-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Resent-Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2004 17:02:43 -0500 - Original Message - From: Paul Stenquist Subject: OT: Film: And the Dead Shall Rise... From Steve Blumenkranz as posted on the photo.net Leica Photography board: Today I received an email from Kodak clarifying their position regarding their intent as regards their future as a supplier of film. To make a short story shorter they state an intenton of continuing to support the film side of their business and that they will be bringing out four new consumer films within the next month. The message may be viewed at [EMAIL PROTECTED] It remains to be seen if the new films are a re label, or new emulsions. It also remains to be seen as to how long this commitment lasts. William Robb
RE: Film: And the Dead Shall Rise...
-Original Message- From: William Robb [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] - Original Message - From: Paul Stenquist Subject: OT: Film: And the Dead Shall Rise... From Steve Blumenkranz as posted on the photo.net Leica Photography board: Today I received an email from Kodak clarifying their position regarding their intent as regards their future as a supplier of film. To make a short story shorter they state an intenton of continuing to support the film side of their business and that they will be bringing out four new consumer films within the next month. The message may be viewed at [EMAIL PROTECTED] It remains to be seen if the new films are a re label, or new emulsions. It also remains to be seen as to how long this commitment lasts. Kodak will do whatever is most profitable. Right now they still make gobs of money on film, so they'll contiunue to compete on it. I got the email from Kodak, it was just marketing bs. tv
Re: Film: And the Dead Shall Rise...
I On Jan 27, 2004, at 8:05 PM, Jim Apilado wrote: Sometimes I wonder if those shooting digital would like to see the era of film end ASAP. I think there are some photographers who have an unconscious need to validate their digital purchase. The demise of film would do just that. Paul (A digital purchaser who believes film will outlive most of us on this forum.)
