Re: Ford claims ownership of images

[P. J. Alling]

I don't remember who suggested it but, there should be a tricameral 
legislature, two houses dedicated to passing new laws, one dedicated to 
repealing them.  If the governor had no veto power of the third house it 
would be even better...
(California should institute that scheme yesterday).

John Francis wrote:
> On Mon, Jan 21, 2008 at 10:04:49AM +0200, Antti-Pekka Virjonen wrote:
>   
>>> About the only worries I have on my commute are broken glass on 
>>> the roads (only on a couple of streets) and drivers using cell 
>>> phones. I'm absolutely gobsmacked at the amount of people I see 
>>> using one of those things while driving.  Put the damn thing 
>>> away and LEARN TO IGNORE IT if it rings!
>>>
>>> - Dave
>>>   
>> Over here it is illegal to use a mobile phone while driving if you are
>> not using a handsfree system.
>> 
>
> Tht will soon (July 1st) be the situation in California, too.
> This despite the fact that even the person who proposed the law
> concedes studies have shown there is no significant difference
> between using a hands-free and any other kind of mobile phone.
> He'd like to ban all use of phones while driving, but knows he
> doesn't have a hope of getting that passed.  But this way he is
> at least seen to be doing something, which is what matters if
> you are a politician.
>
>
>   


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Re: Ford claims ownership of images

[John Francis]

On Mon, Jan 21, 2008 at 10:04:49AM +0200, Antti-Pekka Virjonen wrote:
> > About the only worries I have on my commute are broken glass on 
> > the roads (only on a couple of streets) and drivers using cell 
> > phones. I'm absolutely gobsmacked at the amount of people I see 
> > using one of those things while driving.  Put the damn thing 
> > away and LEARN TO IGNORE IT if it rings!
> >
> > - Dave
> 
> Over here it is illegal to use a mobile phone while driving if you are
> not using a handsfree system.

Tht will soon (July 1st) be the situation in California, too.
This despite the fact that even the person who proposed the law
concedes studies have shown there is no significant difference
between using a hands-free and any other kind of mobile phone.
He'd like to ban all use of phones while driving, but knows he
doesn't have a hope of getting that passed.  But this way he is
at least seen to be doing something, which is what matters if
you are a politician.


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RE: Ford claims ownership of images

[Antti-Pekka Virjonen]

> About the only worries I have on my commute are broken glass on 
> the roads (only on a couple of streets) and drivers using cell 
> phones. I'm absolutely gobsmacked at the amount of people I see 
> using one of those things while driving.  Put the damn thing 
> away and LEARN TO IGNORE IT if it rings!
>
> - Dave

Over here it is illegal to use a mobile phone while driving if you are
not using a handsfree system.

Antti-Pekka


Antti-Pekka Virjonen

Computec Oy
R&D Turku

www.computec.fi 


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RE: Ford claims ownership of images

[Antti-Pekka Virjonen]

> We have used Nokean (Suomi Finland) for several winters now on our
> vehicles and are suitably impressed with their performance over
> other
> brands we have tried.
> 
> Tony Kekalos
> Traverse City MI

Nowadays I use the Nokian Hakkapeliitta (studded) winter tires
exclusively.

Antti-Pekka



Antti-Pekka Virjonen

Computec Oy
R&D Turku

www.computec.fi 



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Re: Ford claims ownership of images

[Cotty]

On 20/01/08, Peter Fairweather, discombobulated, unleashed:

>Except for those who were choking on the hat of their choice of course.

Confuscious say, he who chokes last, lives longest :-)

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Re: Ford claims ownership of images

[mike wilson]

It's a non-discriminational church. 8-)
> 
> From: "P. J. Alling" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Date: 2008/01/20 Sun PM 06:22:16 GMT
> To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List 
> Subject: Re: Ford claims ownership of images
> 
> For the blessing of the fishes?  (Isn't this kind of dolphin a mammal?
> 
> mike wilson wrote:
> >> From: "Bob Sullivan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >> Date: 2008/01/20 Sun PM 02:06:16 GMT
> >> To: "Pentax-Discuss Mail List" 
> >> Subject: Re: Ford claims ownership of images
> >>
> >> Bob W,
> >>
> >> LOL,  Great image!
> >> What have you been into this morning?
> >>
> >> Regards, Bob S.
> >> 
> >
> > He took his dolphin to church, of course.
> >
> >   
> >> On Jan 20, 2008 7:24 AM, Bob W <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >> 
> >>>>> Small children
> >>>>>   
> >>>> Hmmm
> >>>>
> >>>> 
> >>>>> Dogs
> >>>>>   
> >>>> Cats is worse
> >>>> 
> >>> don't try driving with dolphins either. Slippery little buggers. Can't
> >>> keep the seatbelt on. Always blowing off and flapping their little
> >>> arms against the gearstick. Water evreywhere, non-stop squeaking, and
> >>> their breath reeks of tuna.
> >>>
> >>> --
> >>>  Bob
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> --
> >>>
> >>> PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List
> >>> PDML@pdml.net
> >>> http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
> >>> to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and 
> >>> follow the directions.
> >>>
> >>>   
> >> -- 
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> >>
> >> 
> >
> >
> > -
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> >
> >
> >   
> 
> 
> -- 
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> A union with the Bavarian Illuminati is contemplated. 
> When it is complete the Bavarian Cream Illuminati will rule the world
>   -- Anonymous 
> 
> 
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Re: Ford claims ownership of images

[Peter Fairweather]

I have also read that there is no improvement with hands free.

IF this is true it would hardly be surprising given the false sense of
security which you would expect to be associated with these smug folk
prattling away.

Except for those who were choking on the hat of their choice of course.

Peter

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Re: Ford claims ownership of images

[John Francis]

On Sun, Jan 20, 2008 at 10:09:53PM +0900, David Savage wrote:
> And you're basing that statement on what exactly?
> 
> Any activity that takes your mind off of whats happening on the road
> is potentially dangerous.

Indeed.  But multiple studies have shown that it's the act of talking
on the cell (mobile) phone that causes the distraction, not holding the
phone in your hand.  There was no statistical difference between the
users of hands-free and other types of phones.


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Re: Ford claims ownership of images

[P. J. Alling]

For the blessing of the fishes?  (Isn't this kind of dolphin a mammal?

mike wilson wrote:
>> From: "Bob Sullivan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> Date: 2008/01/20 Sun PM 02:06:16 GMT
>> To: "Pentax-Discuss Mail List" 
>> Subject: Re: Ford claims ownership of images
>>
>> Bob W,
>>
>> LOL,  Great image!
>> What have you been into this morning?
>>
>> Regards, Bob S.
>> 
>
> He took his dolphin to church, of course.
>
>   
>> On Jan 20, 2008 7:24 AM, Bob W <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> 
>>>>> Small children
>>>>>   
>>>> Hmmm
>>>>
>>>> 
>>>>> Dogs
>>>>>   
>>>> Cats is worse
>>>> 
>>> don't try driving with dolphins either. Slippery little buggers. Can't
>>> keep the seatbelt on. Always blowing off and flapping their little
>>> arms against the gearstick. Water evreywhere, non-stop squeaking, and
>>> their breath reeks of tuna.
>>>
>>> --
>>>  Bob
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>>
>>> PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List
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>>> http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
>>> to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and 
>>> follow the directions.
>>>
>>>   
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>> follow the directions.
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>> 
>
>
> -
> Email sent from www.virginmedia.com/email
> Virus-checked using McAfee(R) Software and scanned for spam
>
>
>   


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Re: Ford claims ownership of images

[P. J. Alling]

It might help you to think about bottoms less often...
(Referencing a different thread for those who are confused.)

Cotty wrote:
> On 20/01/08, David Savage, discombobulated, unleashed:
>
>   
>> It only takes a split second loss of concentration
>> 
>
> Jeees i lose concentration for days at a time.
>
>   


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Re: Ford claims ownership of images

[P. J. Alling]

It's a lot more difficult for the Police to get phone records here.  In 
spite of what the hysterics would have you believe.  A very serious 
crime would have to be involved. 

Cotty wrote:
> On 20/01/08, David Mann, discombobulated, unleashed:
>
>   
>> I'm absolutely gobsmacked at the amount of people I see using one of  
>> those things while driving.  Put the damn thing away and LEARN TO  
>> IGNORE IT if it rings!
>> 
>
> Drivers speaking on the phone by actually using one hand to hold it to
> their ear is only a fraction as dangerous as drivers holding the phone
> in their lap and texting while driving.
>
> Police here regularly prosecute after accidents by checking mobile phone
> providers of all participants for any activity at the time of the
> incident. Death by careless driving is a custodial sentence, and so it
> should be.
>
> Here, anyone caught using a phone while driving can attract serious
> consequences:
>
> 
>
>   


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Re: Ford claims ownership of images

[Peter Fairweather]

Probably just looks as though it needs something to liven it up
because of the rather flat colours from the CMOS sensor in his
favoured make of camera.

Trouble is that effect will be available for us, if the rumours of the
new sensor are true!!

Peter

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Re: Ford claims ownership of images

[David J Brooks]

Needs salt

Dave

On Jan 20, 2008 10:02 AM, Cotty <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On 20/01/08, Bob Sullivan, discombobulated, unleashed:
>
> >if a hat event should occur,
> >we will all want to watch a streaming video of it on Utube.
>
>
> Bob,
>
> With the greatest of pleasure.
>
> 
>
> Now what can I have for nibbles, I'm getting a bit peckish
>
> --
>
>
>
> Cheers,
>   Cotty
>
>
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> _
>
>
>
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Re: Ford claims ownership of images

[Cotty]

On 20/01/08, Mark Roberts, discombobulated, unleashed:

>Cotty wrote:
>
>>
>
>Not bad, but you should crop a bit of the right, flatten out the 
>contrast a little with curves and rotate it a bit to the left...

Ooh these Pentaxians are sore!!



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Re: Ford claims ownership of images

[Mark Roberts]

Cotty wrote:

>

Not bad, but you should crop a bit of the right, flatten out the 
contrast a little with curves and rotate it a bit to the left...



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Re: Ford claims ownership of images

[Eactivist]

In a message dated 1/20/2008 5:24:05 A.M.  Pacific Standard Time, 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Smoking while driving should  be outlawed as well as eating - in fact it
all comes under driving without  due care and attention.

>and last but not least (in your case)  eating, especially hats later this
>week!!

Don't forget  daydreaming, Peter cos that's what yer doin there
laddie !!

--  


Cheers,
Cotty


===
About the only  place I can still smoke is in the car. With a bic lighter 
there is no  distraction. Matches can be. You light a cigarette without taking 
your eyes off  the road, no biggie. Cell phones are much more distracting 
because sometimes  people get so caught up and in what they are hearing/saying 
they 
aren't paying  attention even though they are looking.

I don't know, if one drives in  California (lots of people, lots of cars, 
lots of teenagers who are the worst,  especially teenagers in SUVs), one 
really, 
really learns to be a defensive  driver. 

The best defense is watching out for the other  idiot.

Marnie aka Doe  :-)

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Re: Ford claims ownership of images

[Eactivist]

In a message dated 1/20/2008 7:18:54 A.M.  Pacific Standard Time, 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
On 20/01/08, Bob Sullivan,  discombobulated, unleashed:

>if a hat event should occur,
>we  will all want to watch a streaming video of it on  Utube.


Bob,

With the greatest of  pleasure.



Now  what can I have for nibbles, I'm getting a bit peckish

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Cheers,
Cotty

==
ROLF.

Marnie  

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Re: Ford claims ownership of images

[Bob Sullivan]

LOL !

On Jan 20, 2008 9:02 AM, Cotty <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On 20/01/08, Bob Sullivan, discombobulated, unleashed:
>
> >if a hat event should occur,
> >we will all want to watch a streaming video of it on Utube.
>
>
> Bob,
>
> With the greatest of pleasure.
>
> 
>
> Now what can I have for nibbles, I'm getting a bit peckish
>
> --
>
>
> Cheers,
>  Cotty
>
>
> ___/\__
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> _
>
>
>
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Re: Ford claims ownership of images

[David Savage]

On Jan 21, 2008 12:02 AM, Cotty <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On 20/01/08, Bob Sullivan, discombobulated, unleashed:
>
> >if a hat event should occur,
> >we will all want to watch a streaming video of it on Utube.
>
>
> Bob,
>
> With the greatest of pleasure.
>
> 
>
> Now what can I have for nibbles, I'm getting a bit peckish

ROTFL

Cheers,

Dave

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Re: Ford claims ownership of images

[Cotty]

On 20/01/08, Bob Sullivan, discombobulated, unleashed:

>if a hat event should occur,
>we will all want to watch a streaming video of it on Utube.


Bob,

With the greatest of pleasure.



Now what can I have for nibbles, I'm getting a bit peckish

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Re: Ford claims ownership of images

[David Savage]

On Jan 20, 2008 10:24 PM, Bob W <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Always blowing off

...that problem is not exclusive to dolphins.

Cheers,

Dave

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Re: Ford claims ownership of images

[mike wilson]

> 
> From: "Bob Sullivan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Date: 2008/01/20 Sun PM 02:06:16 GMT
> To: "Pentax-Discuss Mail List" 
> Subject: Re: Ford claims ownership of images
> 
> Bob W,
> 
> LOL,  Great image!
> What have you been into this morning?
> 
> Regards, Bob S.

He took his dolphin to church, of course.

> 
> 
> On Jan 20, 2008 7:24 AM, Bob W <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > > >Small children
> > >
> > > Hmmm
> > >
> > > >Dogs
> > >
> > > Cats is worse
> >
> > don't try driving with dolphins either. Slippery little buggers. Can't
> > keep the seatbelt on. Always blowing off and flapping their little
> > arms against the gearstick. Water evreywhere, non-stop squeaking, and
> > their breath reeks of tuna.
> >
> > --
> >  Bob
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> >
> > PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List
> > PDML@pdml.net
> > http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
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> > follow the directions.
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Re: Ford claims ownership of images

[Bob Sullivan]

Bob W,

LOL,  Great image!
What have you been into this morning?

Regards, Bob S.


On Jan 20, 2008 7:24 AM, Bob W <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > >Small children
> >
> > Hmmm
> >
> > >Dogs
> >
> > Cats is worse
>
> don't try driving with dolphins either. Slippery little buggers. Can't
> keep the seatbelt on. Always blowing off and flapping their little
> arms against the gearstick. Water evreywhere, non-stop squeaking, and
> their breath reeks of tuna.
>
> --
>  Bob
>
>
>
> --
>
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Re: Ford claims ownership of images

[David Savage]

On Jan 20, 2008 10:12 PM, Cotty <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On 20/01/08, David Savage, discombobulated, unleashed:
>
> >It only takes a split second loss of concentration
>
> Jeees i lose concentration for days at a time.

And look at all the trouble you manage to find yourself in...

Cheers,

Dave

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Re: Ford claims ownership of images

[Bob Sullivan]

You know Cotty, if a hat event should occur,
we will all want to watch a streaming video of it on Utube.
You being in the business and all... ;-)
Regards,  Bob S.

On Jan 20, 2008 7:09 AM, Cotty <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On 20/01/08, Peter Fairweather, discombobulated, unleashed:
>
> >Sorry can't let this attempt to demonise phone users pass.
>
> Oh don't get me wrong - I use a phone while driving all the time.
> Although, it is hands-free and with a collection of Bluetooth headsets.
> It is still very distracting and I've scared myself more than once.
>
> >Of course it's not a good idea but in the scale of things which cause
> >the driver to lose concentration it comes well below driving with
> >
> >Small children
>
> Hmmm
>
> >Dogs
>
> Cats is worse
>
> >Full colour screen sat navs
>
> I'll go along with that
>
> Worse - Google maps on the phone on the dash !!
>
> >lighting cigarettes
>
> Smoking while driving should be outlawed as well as eating - in fact it
> all comes under driving without due care and attention.
>
> >and last but not least (in your case) eating, especially hats later this
> >week!!
>
> Don't forget daydreaming, Peter cos that's what yer doin there
> laddie !!
>
> --
>
>
>
> Cheers,
>  Cotty
>
>
> ___/\__
> ||   (O)   | People, Places, Pastiche
> ||=|http://www.cottysnaps.com
> _
>
>
>
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RE: Ford claims ownership of images

[Bob W]

> >Small children
> 
> Hmmm
> 
> >Dogs
> 
> Cats is worse

don't try driving with dolphins either. Slippery little buggers. Can't
keep the seatbelt on. Always blowing off and flapping their little
arms against the gearstick. Water evreywhere, non-stop squeaking, and
their breath reeks of tuna.

--
 Bob
 


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Re: Ford claims ownership of images

[Cotty]

On 20/01/08, David Savage, discombobulated, unleashed:

>It only takes a split second loss of concentration

Jeees i lose concentration for days at a time.

-- 


Cheers,
  Cotty


___/\__
||   (O)   | People, Places, Pastiche
||=|http://www.cottysnaps.com
_



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Re: Ford claims ownership of images

[Cotty]

On 20/01/08, Peter Fairweather, discombobulated, unleashed:

>Sorry can't let this attempt to demonise phone users pass.

Oh don't get me wrong - I use a phone while driving all the time.
Although, it is hands-free and with a collection of Bluetooth headsets.
It is still very distracting and I've scared myself more than once.

>Of course it's not a good idea but in the scale of things which cause
>the driver to lose concentration it comes well below driving with
>
>Small children

Hmmm

>Dogs

Cats is worse

>Full colour screen sat navs

I'll go along with that

Worse - Google maps on the phone on the dash !!

>lighting cigarettes

Smoking while driving should be outlawed as well as eating - in fact it
all comes under driving without due care and attention.

>and last but not least (in your case) eating, especially hats later this
>week!!

Don't forget daydreaming, Peter cos that's what yer doin there
laddie !!

-- 


Cheers,
  Cotty


___/\__
||   (O)   | People, Places, Pastiche
||=|http://www.cottysnaps.com
_



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Re: Ford claims ownership of images

[David Savage]

And you're basing that statement on what exactly?

Any activity that takes your mind off of whats happening on the road
is potentially dangerous.

It only takes a split second loss of concentration for something bad
to happen. Then again you can be concentrating intently & shit will
still happen.

Cheers,

Dave.

On Jan 20, 2008 9:44 PM, Peter Fairweather <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Sorry can't let this attempt to demonise phone users pass.
>
> Of course it's not a good idea but in the scale of things which cause
> the driver to lose concentration it comes well below driving with
>
> Small children
> Dogs
> Full colour screen sat navs
> lighting cigarettes
> and last but not least (in your case) eating, especially hats later this 
> week!!
>
> Peter
>
>
>
> On 20/01/2008, Cotty <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > On 20/01/08, David Mann, discombobulated, unleashed:
> >
> > >I'm absolutely gobsmacked at the amount of people I see using one of
> > >those things while driving.  Put the damn thing away and LEARN TO
> > >IGNORE IT if it rings!
> >
> > Drivers speaking on the phone by actually using one hand to hold it to
> > their ear is only a fraction as dangerous as drivers holding the phone
> > in their lap and texting while driving.
> >
> > Police here regularly prosecute after accidents by checking mobile phone
> > providers of all participants for any activity at the time of the
> > incident. Death by careless driving is a custodial sentence, and so it
> > should be.
> >
> > Here, anyone caught using a phone while driving can attract serious
> > consequences:
> >
> > 
> >
> > --
> >
> >
> > Cheers,
> >  Cotty
> >
> >
> > ___/\__
> > ||   (O)   | People, Places, Pastiche
> > ||=|http://www.cottysnaps.com
> > _
> >
> >
> >
> > --
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Re: Ford claims ownership of images

[Peter Fairweather]

Sorry can't let this attempt to demonise phone users pass.

Of course it's not a good idea but in the scale of things which cause
the driver to lose concentration it comes well below driving with

Small children
Dogs
Full colour screen sat navs
lighting cigarettes
and last but not least (in your case) eating, especially hats later this week!!

Peter


On 20/01/2008, Cotty <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On 20/01/08, David Mann, discombobulated, unleashed:
>
> >I'm absolutely gobsmacked at the amount of people I see using one of
> >those things while driving.  Put the damn thing away and LEARN TO
> >IGNORE IT if it rings!
>
> Drivers speaking on the phone by actually using one hand to hold it to
> their ear is only a fraction as dangerous as drivers holding the phone
> in their lap and texting while driving.
>
> Police here regularly prosecute after accidents by checking mobile phone
> providers of all participants for any activity at the time of the
> incident. Death by careless driving is a custodial sentence, and so it
> should be.
>
> Here, anyone caught using a phone while driving can attract serious
> consequences:
>
> 
>
> --
>
>
> Cheers,
>  Cotty
>
>
> ___/\__
> ||   (O)   | People, Places, Pastiche
> ||=|http://www.cottysnaps.com
> _
>
>
>
> --
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Re: Ford claims ownership of images

[Cotty]

On 20/01/08, David Mann, discombobulated, unleashed:

>I'm absolutely gobsmacked at the amount of people I see using one of  
>those things while driving.  Put the damn thing away and LEARN TO  
>IGNORE IT if it rings!

Drivers speaking on the phone by actually using one hand to hold it to
their ear is only a fraction as dangerous as drivers holding the phone
in their lap and texting while driving.

Police here regularly prosecute after accidents by checking mobile phone
providers of all participants for any activity at the time of the
incident. Death by careless driving is a custodial sentence, and so it
should be.

Here, anyone caught using a phone while driving can attract serious
consequences:



-- 


Cheers,
  Cotty


___/\__
||   (O)   | People, Places, Pastiche
||=|http://www.cottysnaps.com
_



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RE: Ford claims ownership of images

[Bob W]

> I choose my commuting routes very carefully so that mostly keeps me

> away from heavy traffic.  It's good to get to know the back streets

> and shared paths (cyclist/walkway) through parks.  

too slow, too indirect, and it plays into the hands of the road lobby
which thinks that bicycles aren't traffic and shouldn't be on the
road.

--
 Bob
 


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Re: Ford claims ownership of images

[David Mann]

On Jan 20, 2008, at 7:29 AM, Bob W wrote:

> They're trying to convince people that riding to work will be a jolly
> little tootle along the canal on a sunny day, instead of the reality
> which, in my experience, is a cold sweaty grind through icy rain and
> diesel fumes over pot-holed roads,  against a headwind and into the
> teeth of an Atlantic storm, while trying to dodge psychopathic
> Sun-reading van drivers who treat you as idle sport, or the drivers of
> 40-ton trucks who crush you against a barrier*, squirting your
> entrails out of your arse and across the Walworth Road, then lumber on
> without ever realising they've done it.

About the only worries I have on my commute are broken glass on the  
roads (only on a couple of streets) and drivers using cell phones.   
I'm absolutely gobsmacked at the amount of people I see using one of  
those things while driving.  Put the damn thing away and LEARN TO  
IGNORE IT if it rings!

Oh and the other problem is one of the car yards I go past.  They  
have an Aston Martin Vantage in stock so I find it difficult to watch  
where I'm going on the busiest road of my commute.

I choose my commuting routes very carefully so that mostly keeps me  
away from heavy traffic.  It's good to get to know the back streets  
and shared paths (cyclist/walkway) through parks.  Our urban roads  
are pretty wide compared to yours so space is rarely a problem.  Our  
highways are a different matter.

As for the weather, a head wind is very character building :)  If  
it's raining in the morning I'll grab a lift from the Mrs.  The  
hardest thing about rain is that it's difficult to see through wet  
glasses and being short-sighted it can get dangerous if I remove them :)

> But at least it's tax-free.

Don't say that too loudly ;)  I take it bikes are exempt from the  
congestion cash-grab as well?

- Dave


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Re: Ford claims ownership of images

[P. J. Alling]

Bob W wrote:
> They're trying to convince people that riding to work will be a jolly
> little tootle along the canal on a sunny day, instead of the reality
> which, in my experience, is a cold sweaty grind through icy rain and
> diesel fumes over pot-holed roads,  against a headwind and into the
> teeth of an Atlantic storm, while trying to dodge psychopathic
> Sun-reading van drivers who treat you as idle sport, or the drivers of
> 40-ton trucks who crush you against a barrier*, squirting your
> entrails out of your arse and across the Walworth Road, then lumber on
> without ever realising they've done it.
>
> But at least it's tax-free.
>   
Which in tax ridden England is something I suppose...

> --
>  Bob
>
> *this is the leading cause of cyclist death in London!
>  
>
>   
>> -Original Message-
>> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On 
>> Behalf Of P. J. Alling
>> Sent: 19 January 2008 14:16
>> To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List
>> Subject: Re: Ford claims ownership of images
>>
>> I find it interesting that the pictures don't seem to have people on
>> 
>
>   
>> bikes in any type of work clothes.  I don't think they're entirely 
>> serious. 
>>
>> Bob W wrote:
>> 
>>>> Would the gov't pay you to ride a bike?
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>> as a matter of fact, they do (sort of ):
>>> http://www.cyclescheme.co.uk/
>>>
>>>   
>
>
>   


-- 
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A union with the Bavarian Illuminati is contemplated. 
When it is complete the Bavarian Cream Illuminati will rule the world
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RE: Ford claims ownership of images

[Bob W]

They're trying to convince people that riding to work will be a jolly
little tootle along the canal on a sunny day, instead of the reality
which, in my experience, is a cold sweaty grind through icy rain and
diesel fumes over pot-holed roads,  against a headwind and into the
teeth of an Atlantic storm, while trying to dodge psychopathic
Sun-reading van drivers who treat you as idle sport, or the drivers of
40-ton trucks who crush you against a barrier*, squirting your
entrails out of your arse and across the Walworth Road, then lumber on
without ever realising they've done it.

But at least it's tax-free.

--
 Bob

*this is the leading cause of cyclist death in London!
 

> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On 
> Behalf Of P. J. Alling
> Sent: 19 January 2008 14:16
> To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List
> Subject: Re: Ford claims ownership of images
> 
> I find it interesting that the pictures don't seem to have people on

> bikes in any type of work clothes.  I don't think they're entirely 
> serious. 
> 
> Bob W wrote:
> >> Would the gov't pay you to ride a bike?
> >> 
> >
> > as a matter of fact, they do (sort of ):
> > http://www.cyclescheme.co.uk/
> >


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Re: Ford claims ownership of images

[P. J. Alling]

I find it interesting that the pictures don't seem to have people on 
bikes in any type of work clothes.  I don't think they're entirely 
serious. 

Bob W wrote:
>> Would the gov't pay you to ride a bike?
>> 
>
> as a matter of fact, they do (sort of ):
> http://www.cyclescheme.co.uk/
>
> --
>  Bob
>  
>
>   
>> -Original Message-
>> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On 
>> Behalf Of David Mann
>> Sent: 19 January 2008 05:09
>> To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List
>> Subject: Re: Ford claims ownership of images
>>
>> On Jan 18, 2008, at 10:32 PM, mike wilson wrote:
>>
>> 
>>> However, road tax is now based on emissions, so my wife's 1.4  
>>> diesel costs £35 per year compared to my 1.8 at (whimper) £180.
>>>   
>> Would the gov't pay you to ride a bike?
>>
>> It sounds to me like they're absolutely creaming it.  Someone should
>> 
>
>   
>> write a letter to the editor.
>>
>> - Dave
>>
>>
>> -- 
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>> above and follow the directions.
>>
>>
>> 
>
>
>   


-- 
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When it is complete the Bavarian Cream Illuminati will rule the world
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RE: Ford claims ownership of images

[Bob W]

> I think abot 1/4 of the money raised is spent directly on 
> road work. 

and thereby making ordinary drivers subsidise the road transport
industry. The cost for ordinary drivers would be massively reduced if
the lorry industry paid for the damage it does to the roads and
pavements, but they are feather-bedded and cossetted almost as much as
farmers and the road-building industry itself. Put it all on the
railways and back on the canals, that's what I say!

--
 Bob
 

> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On 
> Behalf Of mike wilson
> Sent: 19 January 2008 10:08
> To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List
> Subject: Re: Ford claims ownership of images
> 
> 
> > 
> > From: David Mann <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > Date: 2008/01/19 Sat AM 05:08:33 GMT
> > To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List 
> > Subject: Re: Ford claims ownership of images
> > 
> > On Jan 18, 2008, at 10:32 PM, mike wilson wrote:
> > 
> > > However, road tax is now based on emissions, so my wife's 1.4  
> > > diesel costs £35 per year compared to my 1.8 at (whimper) £180.
> > 
> > Would the gov't pay you to ride a bike?
> 
> At present, that would be a non-starter due to potential 
> healthcare cost issues. 8-)
> 
> > 
> > It sounds to me like they're absolutely creaming it.  
> Someone should  
> > write a letter to the editor.
> 
> I think abot 1/4 of the money raised is spent directly on 
> road work.  As many people pay more than five times as much 
> per annum for fuel and at least the same amount as the tax 
> for servicing, it's not seen as an excessive cost.
> 
> 
> -
> Email sent from www.virginmedia.com/email
> Virus-checked using McAfee(R) Software and scanned for spam
> 
> 
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Re: Ford claims ownership of images

[mike wilson]

> 
> From: David Mann <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Date: 2008/01/19 Sat AM 05:08:33 GMT
> To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List 
> Subject: Re: Ford claims ownership of images
> 
> On Jan 18, 2008, at 10:32 PM, mike wilson wrote:
> 
> > However, road tax is now based on emissions, so my wife's 1.4  
> > diesel costs £35 per year compared to my 1.8 at (whimper) £180.
> 
> Would the gov't pay you to ride a bike?

At present, that would be a non-starter due to potential healthcare cost 
issues. 8-)

> 
> It sounds to me like they're absolutely creaming it.  Someone should  
> write a letter to the editor.

I think abot 1/4 of the money raised is spent directly on road work.  As many 
people pay more than five times as much per annum for fuel and at least the 
same amount as the tax for servicing, it's not seen as an excessive cost.


-
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Virus-checked using McAfee(R) Software and scanned for spam


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RE: Ford claims ownership of images

[Bob W]

> Would the gov't pay you to ride a bike?

as a matter of fact, they do (sort of ):
http://www.cyclescheme.co.uk/

--
 Bob
 

> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On 
> Behalf Of David Mann
> Sent: 19 January 2008 05:09
> To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List
> Subject: Re: Ford claims ownership of images
> 
> On Jan 18, 2008, at 10:32 PM, mike wilson wrote:
> 
> > However, road tax is now based on emissions, so my wife's 1.4  
> > diesel costs £35 per year compared to my 1.8 at (whimper) £180.
> 
> Would the gov't pay you to ride a bike?
> 
> It sounds to me like they're absolutely creaming it.  Someone should

> write a letter to the editor.
> 
> - Dave
> 
> 
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Re: Ford claims ownership of images

[David Mann]

On Jan 18, 2008, at 10:32 PM, mike wilson wrote:

> However, road tax is now based on emissions, so my wife's 1.4  
> diesel costs £35 per year compared to my 1.8 at (whimper) £180.

Would the gov't pay you to ride a bike?

It sounds to me like they're absolutely creaming it.  Someone should  
write a letter to the editor.

- Dave


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Re: Ford claims ownership of images

[Antonios Kekalos]

We have used Nokean (Suomi Finland) for several winters now on our
vehicles and are suitably impressed with their performance over other
brands we have tried.

Tony Kekalos
Traverse City MI

On Jan 18, 2008 4:09 PM, Ken Waller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> There is a brand of tire (Bridgestone Blizzacks) available in the U.S. that
> are specially formulated for improved performance in snow/ice conditions.
> Not as good as studs, but definitely an improvement over any non studded
> tire. I put a set on my son's 4X2 Ranger pickup & the improvement in
> wet/snow/ice traction was very noticeable. The bad news was that like
> studded tires, their effectiveness fell off with wear, but used only in
> winter, their effectiveness was noticeable for several years, after which
> they were no worse than regular M+S tires.
>
> Kenneth Waller
> http://www.tinyurl.com/272u2f
>
> - Original Message -
> From: "Toralf Lund" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Subject: Re: Ford claims ownership of images
>
>
> > Antti-Pekka Virjonen wrote:
> >> [ ... ]
> >>
> >>> W
> >> Banning the studs here would be a mass murder. We know quite well how to
> >> drive in bad conditions but I think driving without studded tires can be
> >> compared to planning a suicide ;-).
> > I've used "studless" tires for several winters now, and found that they
> > are quite good. New studded tires are better on hard ice, but once
> > you've used them a bit, and the studs are starting to get worn down, I'm
> > no longer so sure. And which is safer is also a matter of how you drive.
> > Often when this discussion comes up, it strikes me that the proponents
> > of studded tires have way too much confidence in the studs, so that they
> > would probably be safer without them just because they would drive more
> > carefully.
> >
> > Remember that modern studless winter tires are not just studded tires
> > without the studs; they have a completely different rubber mixture etc.
> >
> > - T
>
>
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Re: Ford claims ownership of images

[arcee]

On Tue, 2008-01-15 at 11:45 -0800, Brendan MacRae wrote:
> --- William Robb <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
> 
> > This is where the calender people are running afoul
> > of things. If the brand 
> > or nameplates are recognizable, they probably are in
> > violation of copyright 
> > law, if the vehicle is recognizable as a particular
> > make/model, they may be 
> > in violation as well.
> > I think Ford is being pretty stupid to push the
> > issue, though if it showed 
> > their product in a bad way, they would be wise to
> > pursue it.
> > 
> > William Robb 
> 
> I agree with that. I would guess Ford's legal dept is
> trying to stay consistant and not allow some use here
> and there while restricting others. Inconsistancy
> could hurt them ...down the road (pun intended).
> 
> -Brendan
Maybe, Ford felt burned by the explosive images from the calendar of the
Pinto Ownership and Organization of Fire-Eaters (POOF).


Robert Chow


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Re: Ford claims ownership of images

[John Francis]

On Fri, Jan 18, 2008 at 10:35:55AM +, Cotty wrote:
> On 18/01/08, mike wilson, discombobulated, unleashed:
> 
> >However, road tax is now based on emissions, so my wife's 1.4 diesel
> >costs ?35 per year compared to my 1.8 at (whimper) ?180.
> 
> My Land Rover @ ?240 per year.

I belive that by the time I got rid of it I was paying more for the
personalized plates on the car ($65/year, IIRC) than for registration
on the Mustang.  With a 5.0L V8 (15mpg, more or less), and 20-year-old
emission control technology that only just met the California standards,
that car would probably be prohibitively expensive to operate in the UK.



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Re: Ford claims ownership of images

[Ken Waller]

There is a brand of tire (Bridgestone Blizzacks) available in the U.S. that 
are specially formulated for improved performance in snow/ice conditions. 
Not as good as studs, but definitely an improvement over any non studded 
tire. I put a set on my son's 4X2 Ranger pickup & the improvement in 
wet/snow/ice traction was very noticeable. The bad news was that like 
studded tires, their effectiveness fell off with wear, but used only in 
winter, their effectiveness was noticeable for several years, after which 
they were no worse than regular M+S tires.

Kenneth Waller
http://www.tinyurl.com/272u2f

- Original Message - 
From: "Toralf Lund" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Ford claims ownership of images


> Antti-Pekka Virjonen wrote:
>> [ ... ]
>>
>>> W
>> Banning the studs here would be a mass murder. We know quite well how to 
>> drive in bad conditions but I think driving without studded tires can be 
>> compared to planning a suicide ;-).
> I've used "studless" tires for several winters now, and found that they
> are quite good. New studded tires are better on hard ice, but once
> you've used them a bit, and the studs are starting to get worn down, I'm
> no longer so sure. And which is safer is also a matter of how you drive.
> Often when this discussion comes up, it strikes me that the proponents
> of studded tires have way too much confidence in the studs, so that they
> would probably be safer without them just because they would drive more
> carefully.
>
> Remember that modern studless winter tires are not just studded tires
> without the studs; they have a completely different rubber mixture etc.
>
> - T


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Re: Ford claims ownership of images

[Toralf Lund]

Antti-Pekka Virjonen wrote:
> [ ... ]
>   
>> W
> Banning the studs here would be a mass murder. We know quite well how to 
> drive in bad conditions but I think driving without studded tires can be 
> compared to planning a suicide ;-). 
I've used "studless" tires for several winters now, and found that they 
are quite good. New studded tires are better on hard ice, but once 
you've used them a bit, and the studs are starting to get worn down, I'm 
no longer so sure. And which is safer is also a matter of how you drive. 
Often when this discussion comes up, it strikes me that the proponents 
of studded tires have way too much confidence in the studs, so that they 
would probably be safer without them just because they would drive more 
carefully.

Remember that modern studless winter tires are not just studded tires 
without the studs; they have a completely different rubber mixture etc.

- T



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Re: Ford claims ownership of images

[Cotty]

On 18/01/08, Antti-Pekka Virjonen, discombobulated, unleashed:

>Does your Range run on gas (V8)? How about diesel fuel, what is the
>current price?

Diesel for both vehicles. One is a 2495cc 4 cyl, the other is a 2495cc 5 cyl.

Diesel here is more expensive than petrol. Say, £1.09 per litre as
opposed to £1.04.

HTH

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Re: Ford claims ownership of images

[Cotty]

On 18/01/08, mike wilson, discombobulated, unleashed:

>However, road tax is now based on emissions, so my wife's 1.4 diesel
>costs £35 per year compared to my 1.8 at (whimper) £180.

My Land Rover @ £240 per year.

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RE: Ford claims ownership of images

[mike wilson]

> 
> From: "Antti-Pekka Virjonen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

(trimmed, for the children)

> Yes Cotty, 2.05 a litre, but how did you end up with 9.22 USD per gallon? I 
> think that would be 7.75 USD per US gallon. Ahh, you must have used the 
> Imperial gallon. It seems that the gas price in good old England is nowadays 
> the same as over here. Does your Range run on gas (V8)? How about diesel 
> fuel, what is the current price?

2-3p per litre more.  Our benevolent government realised that diesel cars were 
becoming more popular, so increased the tax on fuel for these vehicles, which 
use less of a fuel that is more economical to make.

However, road tax is now based on emissions, so my wife's 1.4 diesel costs £35 
per year compared to my 1.8 at (whimper) £180.

Now that fuel has crossed the £1/litre barrier (just before Christmas) I expect 
it to reach nearly £2/litre this year.



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RE: Ford claims ownership of images

[Antti-Pekka Virjonen]

Bob wrote:
> We buy gas whatever the price because we
> must have it to drive to work.  The only changes come when we buy
> new vehicles that are more efficient.

The very same happens here in Finland. The only place with really a working 
public transportation is the Helsinki area. Other areas of the country have 
public transport (buses and trains) but they do not work so well. The 
transportation times are usually too long and you have to change (usually going 
back and forth quite a long way before reaching the destination). There is also 
a lot of land compared to the number of people so the only practical way for 
many is to drive a car. And adding to that the government really knows how to 
apply taxes to private driving and vehicles ;-).
 
> Studded snow tires are excellent when the road is covered with snow
> and ice.  They were banned here over 30 years ago.  We were living
> in Milwaukee, Wisconsin at the time (population 1,000,000+) and the
> 6 lane super highways began to have tire ruts down the lanes, not 
> in the snow - in the concrete!
> 
> Regards,  Bob S.

Banning the studs here would be a mass murder. We know quite well how to drive 
in bad conditions but I think driving without studded tires can be compared to 
planning a suicide ;-). Many of the roads are in a bad shape because of tire 
ruts round the year but we get used to that (although the ruts increase the 
possibility of water planing during the warmer periods). During the summer a 
lot of roads get new surfaces. The conditions also change a lot in short 
distances, for example driving from the coast to inland only 50-100 miles makes 
a bit difference so you better be prepared all the time.

Cotty wrote:
> An about town price for 1 litre of unleaded here in England would 
> set you back about 1 pound and 4 pence (£1.04). That's about 
> 2 USD.a litre.
>
> That's about $9.22 a gallon.
>
> Cheers,
>   Cotty

Yes Cotty, 2.05 a litre, but how did you end up with 9.22 USD per gallon? I 
think that would be 7.75 USD per US gallon. Ahh, you must have used the 
Imperial gallon. It seems that the gas price in good old England is nowadays 
the same as over here. Does your Range run on gas (V8)? How about diesel fuel, 
what is the current price?

Antti-Pekka


Antti-Pekka Virjonen

Computec Oy
R&D Turku

www.computec.fi 


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Re: Ford claims ownership of images

[Cotty]

On 17/01/08, Bob Sullivan, discombobulated, unleashed:

>Gasoline prices in the middle of the USA are $3.15 per gallon right
>now

An about town price for 1 litre of unleaded here in England would set
you back about 1 pound and 4 pence (£1.04). That's about 2 USD.a litre.

That's about $9.22 a gallon.



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Re: Ford claims ownership of images

[Rick Denney]

Bob Sullivan writes...

> Automobiles and cheap gasoline over the past 100 years have fostered
> a very low density development pattern.  Home densities do not
> support economical public transit, so everyone drives a car.  The
> demand for gasoline is very in-elastic.  We buy gas whatever the
> price because we must have it to drive to work.  The only changes
> come when we buy new vehicles that are more efficient.

It's not just the cheap gas. It's also the relatively cheap land,
which would be impossible to find in most of Europe. In every city in
the world, as soon as the middle class wealth reached the point where
cars were possible, traffic congestion exploded as did suburban
development. Many people just prefer not to live in a high-density
situation. Middle-class people in the U.S. can often afford a country
home, where in Europe it's not nearly as available. That has led to a
different cultural outlook. But the cultural prediliction for using
that wealth to obtain open space is more deep-rooted than cars,
gasoline prices, or development laws.

Reminds me of the difference between Navajo and Hopi culture in the
Southwest. Navajo culture prizes solitude, and the people think they
are living in the right spot when they can't see any neighbors. That's
a tough standard for them--many have a view in the dozens of miles.
The Hopis and other Pueblo cultures live in high-density villages in
the uplands of the Colorado Plateau. The Navajo are recent immigrants
(relatively) having moved to the area only 600 or 700 years ago. 700
years is a long time, and most Americans are far closer to their
ancestors who moved here to find religious freedom and cheap land. Yet
those fundamental cultural differences remain.

> Studded snow tires are excellent when the road is covered with snow
> and ice.  They were banned here over 30 years ago.  We were living in
> Milwaukee, Wisconsin at the time (population 1,000,000+) and the 6
> lane super highways began to have tire ruts down the lanes, not in the
> snow - in the concrete!

Studs are hard on pavement, and pavement is hard on studs. Where you
have snow and ice most days during the winter, they are practical.
Here in the DC region, we have snow on the roads perhaps a dozen days
out of the year, and ice more rarely than that. Studs are not
practical. But I'm sitting in my office, and it is currently snowing.
I will have to get home, and I'm glad my vehicle has a relatively high
ground clearance and all-wheel drive. But I'm also glad it has a low
center of gravity (it's a Subaru Outback).

Rick "in the transportation biz" Denney

---
645 and 6x7 user


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Re: Ford claims ownership of images

[Ken Waller]

Regular gasoline (87 octane) is down to as low as $2.94USD in the Detroit 
burbs from recent highs of $3.20.

Kenneth Waller
http://www.tinyurl.com/272u2f

- Original Message - 
From: "Bob Sullivan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Ford claims ownership of images


> Antti,
>
> Gasoline prices in the middle of the USA are $3.15 per gallon right
> now.  Premium octain and diesel are higher.  I know this is cheap by
> comparison to your prices, but we are complaining as prices were $2.00
> to $2.50 a short time ago.
>
> Automobiles and cheap gasoline over the past 100 years have fostered a
> very low density development pattern.  Home densities do not support
> economical public transit, so everyone drives a car.  The demand for
> gasoline is very in-elastic.  We buy gas whatever the price because we
> must have it to drive to work.  The only changes come when we buy new
> vehicles that are more efficient.
>
> Studded snow tires are excellent when the road is covered with snow
> and ice.  They were banned here over 30 years ago.  We were living in
> Milwaukee, Wisconsin at the time (population 1,000,000+) and the 6
> lane super highways began to have tire ruts down the lanes, not in the
> snow - in the concrete!
>
> Regards,  Bob S.
>
> On Jan 17, 2008 3:22 AM, Antti-Pekka Virjonen
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> > I hope they are enjoying the high gas prices.
>> >
>> > Regards,  Bob S.
>>
>> This makes me wonder, how much does gas or diesel fuel cost in the US
>> (or other parts of the world) these days?
>>
>> Today the price for diesel fuel is around 1.20 euros per litre here in
>> Finland. That translates to roughly 6.72 USD per gallon. 95 octane gas
>> is about 1.40 euros per litre. And then we pay additional tax for diesel
>> engine vehicles. I have Landrover Disco II Td5 which uses over 10 litres
>> of diesel for 100km drive...
>>
>> Regarding the tyres, here about 80% of the cars use studded winter tyres
>> (instead of only friction based M+S). It's a huge difference in
>> performance (studs vs. friction) when the roads are flat planes of ice
>> ;-).
>>
>> BTW to get back to the topic: Yet another example how companies alienate
>> themselves from their customers. I would have thought the calendar (or
>> any other such publication by a loyal customer group) would have been
>> thought as free (and positive) marketing to the manufacturer. They
>> should have volunteered to pay part or all of the publication costs
>> instead of whine about copyrights or such.
>>
>> Antti-Pekka


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Re: Ford claims ownership of images

[David J Brooks]

On Jan 17, 2008 10:14 AM, Bob Sullivan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Antti,
>
> Gasoline prices in the middle of the USA are $3.15 per gallon right
> now.  Premium octain and diesel are higher.  I know this is cheap by
> comparison to your prices, but we are complaining as prices were $2.00
> to $2.50 a short time ago.
>

> Regards,  Bob S.

Put some in today, and around the Toronto are, we are at $1.00 per
litre. Since we have a bigger gallon, that works out to about $4.50 a
gallon for us.

Pretty hard for us in this neck of the woods to get by with out
driving. Our GO trains only leave for the city from 5am to 7:30 am and
thats it. GO buses do come by, but with a lenghty wait. Noone waits
anymore.

Dave
>
>

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Re: Ford claims ownership of images

[Bob Sullivan]

Antti,

Gasoline prices in the middle of the USA are $3.15 per gallon right
now.  Premium octain and diesel are higher.  I know this is cheap by
comparison to your prices, but we are complaining as prices were $2.00
to $2.50 a short time ago.

Automobiles and cheap gasoline over the past 100 years have fostered a
very low density development pattern.  Home densities do not support
economical public transit, so everyone drives a car.  The demand for
gasoline is very in-elastic.  We buy gas whatever the price because we
must have it to drive to work.  The only changes come when we buy new
vehicles that are more efficient.

Studded snow tires are excellent when the road is covered with snow
and ice.  They were banned here over 30 years ago.  We were living in
Milwaukee, Wisconsin at the time (population 1,000,000+) and the 6
lane super highways began to have tire ruts down the lanes, not in the
snow - in the concrete!

Regards,  Bob S.

On Jan 17, 2008 3:22 AM, Antti-Pekka Virjonen
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > I hope they are enjoying the high gas prices.
> >
> > Regards,  Bob S.
>
> This makes me wonder, how much does gas or diesel fuel cost in the US
> (or other parts of the world) these days?
>
> Today the price for diesel fuel is around 1.20 euros per litre here in
> Finland. That translates to roughly 6.72 USD per gallon. 95 octane gas
> is about 1.40 euros per litre. And then we pay additional tax for diesel
> engine vehicles. I have Landrover Disco II Td5 which uses over 10 litres
> of diesel for 100km drive...
>
> Regarding the tyres, here about 80% of the cars use studded winter tyres
> (instead of only friction based M+S). It's a huge difference in
> performance (studs vs. friction) when the roads are flat planes of ice
> ;-).
>
> BTW to get back to the topic: Yet another example how companies alienate
> themselves from their customers. I would have thought the calendar (or
> any other such publication by a loyal customer group) would have been
> thought as free (and positive) marketing to the manufacturer. They
> should have volunteered to pay part or all of the publication costs
> instead of whine about copyrights or such.
>
> Antti-Pekka
> 
>
> Antti-Pekka Virjonen
>
> Computec Oy
> R&D Turku
>
> www.computec.fi
>
>
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Re: Ford claims ownership of images

[mike wilson]

> 
> From: Christian <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Date: 2008/01/16 Wed PM 04:57:00 GMT
> To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List 
> Subject: Re: Ford claims ownership of images
> 
> Bob Sullivan wrote:
> > 
> > And G*d help you when you get a little snow falling.  That's their
> > signal to drop in the 4 wheel drive and rev the car up.  Total asses!
> > It is no surprise that rollovers are a problem...clowns operating
> > them.
> 
> Just the opposite in Washington, DC, home of the weather wimps.  One 
> snowflake and EVERY SUV on the road is stranded.  Shit, a little rain 
> grinds them to a halt.  In 8 years with my Honda Civic, I've never been 
> stuck in the snow (we've had everything from a dusting to 2.5 feet in a 
> day), had issues going up a snowy hill, or been in a weather-related 
> accident.  Yet I've seen hundreds of SUVs stranded on the side of the 
> road, abandoned in the middle of the highway, or incapable of going up a 
> hill.  It all boils down to the utter stupidity of the operators.

Often, even before they start driving it.  Saw a Porsche Cayenne stuck on a 
flat road recently.  It had those ultra low aspect ratio, wide tyres with very 
little tread.  No grip at all in the light dusting of snow - at least, not with 
the driver concerned at the wheel.  If it had been a Carrera with those on, the 
driver would probably have stayed at home.  Or maybe not.


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RE: Ford claims ownership of images

[Antti-Pekka Virjonen]

> I hope they are enjoying the high gas prices.
> 
> Regards,  Bob S.

This makes me wonder, how much does gas or diesel fuel cost in the US
(or other parts of the world) these days?

Today the price for diesel fuel is around 1.20 euros per litre here in
Finland. That translates to roughly 6.72 USD per gallon. 95 octane gas
is about 1.40 euros per litre. And then we pay additional tax for diesel
engine vehicles. I have Landrover Disco II Td5 which uses over 10 litres
of diesel for 100km drive...

Regarding the tyres, here about 80% of the cars use studded winter tyres
(instead of only friction based M+S). It's a huge difference in
performance (studs vs. friction) when the roads are flat planes of ice
;-).

BTW to get back to the topic: Yet another example how companies alienate
themselves from their customers. I would have thought the calendar (or
any other such publication by a loyal customer group) would have been
thought as free (and positive) marketing to the manufacturer. They
should have volunteered to pay part or all of the publication costs
instead of whine about copyrights or such.

Antti-Pekka


Antti-Pekka Virjonen

Computec Oy
R&D Turku

www.computec.fi 


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Re: Ford claims ownership of images

[Ken Waller]

>"a former owner of a 1984 Audi 5000"

Don't get me started on that fiasco. (unintended acceleration)


Kenneth Waller
http://www.tinyurl.com/272u2f

- Original Message - 
From: "Rick Denney" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Ford claims ownership of images


> [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes...
> 
>> Excellent, Ken. Please take the stand:-).
>> I find it very entertaining that so many people, who know so
>> little about automobiles, are always ready to trash the US auto
>> industry. It's been a popular indoor sport since Ralph and company
>> kicked it off in the late sixties with another misinformation
>> campaign.
> 
> It's not just the U.S. auto industry that gets the "60 minutes"
> treatment.
> 
> Rick "a former owner of a 1984 Audi 5000" Denney
> 
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Re: Ford claims ownership of images

[Ken Waller]

>inherently unstable vehicle
Absolutely not true. Hundreds of millions of miles have been accrued with 
the Explorer with no stability issues.

> They just don't teach this in driver ed.
Don't they teach getting off the ccelerator & slowly nudging the vehicle off 
to the shoulder when control is an issue? I investigated cases where the 
driver introduced enough steering to either go violently off the road or 
induce tripping which rolled the vehicle.

No more from me on this matter.

Kenneth Waller
http://www.tinyurl.com/272u2f

- Original Message - 
From: "William Robb" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

Subject: Re: Ford claims ownership of images


>
> - Original Message - 
> From: "Ken Waller"
> Subject: Re: Ford claims ownership of images
>
>
>>>
>> How about operators not understanding that vehicles like the Explorer are
>> not like other vehicles. The high ground clearance is there for a reason 
>> &
>> it produces operating characheristice different than the common car.
>
>
> I don't think it reasonable to expect yer average soccer mom to deal well
> with a blow out at 75mph in an inherently unstable vehicle.
> They just don't teach this in driver ed.
> In the Explorer situation, Ford apparently went against the tire
> manufacturers recommendations regarding minimum inflation pressure, the
> result being that a vehicle at speed was running on dangerously hot tires
> which would, at some point, delaminate and fail.
> Everything I've read about this from unbiased parties indicates that the
> Firestone tires (ATX, ATX II, and Wilderness AT) that were used on the
> explorers were perfectly safe, provided they were inflated to the tire
> manufacturers recommended  pressure of 35 pounds, and didn't fall below
> Firestones recommended minimum pressure of 30 pounds.
> Unfortunately, the Exlporer running hard tires was, from what I have read,
> quite prone to tipping, hence the recommnendation from Ford to run the 
> tires
> soft.
> Most people outside of Ford and their PR departments place blame fairly
> equally on both Ford and Firestone
> Ford should not have used those tires on the Explorer if they were 
> insisting
> on tire pressures nearly 30% lower than what the tire maker was
> recommending.
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firestone_and_Ford_tire_controversy
> "Ford internal documents show the company engineers recommended changes to
> the vehicle design after it rolled over in company tests prior to
> introduction, but other than a few minor changes, the suspension and track
> width were not changed. Instead, Ford, which sets the specifications for 
> the
> manufacture of its tires, decided to remove air from the tires, lowering 
> the
> recommended psi to 26. The Firestone-recommended psi molded into the tire
> for maximum load is 35psi."
>
> and
> "Goodyear tires to the same specification have a spotless safety record 
> when
> installed on the Explorer, although an extra liner was included into the
> Goodyear design after recommendations to that effect were made to Ford."
>
> It sounds like Goodyear didn't want to get into the same mess that Ford 
> put
> Firestone into.
>
> William Robb


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Re: Ford claims ownership of images

[Paul Stenquist]

That's true. The "sudden acceleration" nonsense was purely  
muckracking crap. And it cost a lot of people their jobs, not to  
mention diminishing the value of private property. And there was  
absolutely no truth to it. None. Zip. Zero. People with even an ounce  
of intelligent recognized that from the beginning, but that didn't  
stop the assholes.
Paul
On Jan 16, 2008, at 6:38 PM, Rick Denney wrote:

> [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes...
>
>> Excellent, Ken. Please take the stand:-).
>> I find it very entertaining that so many people, who know so
>> little about automobiles, are always ready to trash the US auto
>> industry. It's been a popular indoor sport since Ralph and company
>> kicked it off in the late sixties with another misinformation
>> campaign.
>
> It's not just the U.S. auto industry that gets the "60 minutes"
> treatment.
>
> Rick "a former owner of a 1984 Audi 5000" Denney
>
> ---
> 645 and 6x7 user
>
>
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Re: Ford claims ownership of images

[Rick Denney]

[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes...

> Excellent, Ken. Please take the stand:-).
> I find it very entertaining that so many people, who know so
> little about automobiles, are always ready to trash the US auto
> industry. It's been a popular indoor sport since Ralph and company
> kicked it off in the late sixties with another misinformation
> campaign.

It's not just the U.S. auto industry that gets the "60 minutes"
treatment.

Rick "a former owner of a 1984 Audi 5000" Denney

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Re: Ford claims ownership of images

[P. J. Alling]

One of the Corvair's biggest problems was shared with the VW Type 1, if 
you took out the spare tire and didn't replace it you could pop 
wheelies, which didn't do much for positive steering.  The others that I 
had direct experience with were that the heater boxes could rot out in 
such a way that exhaust gases could be pumped directly into the 
passenger compartment, and the steering column was not collapsible, (not 
sure about that last one but it didn't look like it was on the early 
model a buddy and I took apart).  All of these defects were fixed as 
they were discovered, and by the last year of manufacture the car was 
pretty good.  Probably much safer than a VW.  All VW models shared a 
number of safety design flaws that could cause serious injuries, even if 
the driver and front passenger were securely strapped in.  When rear 
ended wearing the seat belt in an early VW would actually lead to worse 
injuries than not wearing it. None of them were highly publicized but 
then again I believe that Nader drove a Volkswagen.

Adam Maas wrote:
> On 1/15/08, William Robb <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>   
>> - Original Message -
>> 
> DML Pentax-Discuss Mail List
>   
>> P> From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>
>> Subject: Re: Ford claims ownership of images
>>
>>
>> 
>>> Excellent, Ken. Please take the stand:-).
>>> I find it very entertaining that so many people, who know so little about
>>> automobiles, are always ready to trash the US auto industry. It's been a
>>> popular indoor sport since Ralph and company kicked it off in the late
>>> sixties with another misinformation campaign.
>>>   
>> Ya right. My parents owned a Corvair.
>> You and Ken are hardly non partisan participants, since you both derive your
>> livlihood from the US auto industry.
>> I'll trust Car and Driver over a self intersted PR guy any day of the week,
>> thank you very much.
>>
>> William Robb
>> 
>
> The Corvair was actually a pretty good vehicle, compromised only by
> the lack of an anti-sway bar on the base model for the first year.
> 'Unsafe at Any Speed' was a load of bollocks. Otherwise they didn't
> handle worse than most vehicles of that era, and better than many.
>
> Note the Beetle and early Porsche 911's shared almost identical
> suspension designs with the Corvair.
>
>
>   


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Re: Ford claims ownership of images

[William Robb]

- Original Message - 
From: "Adam Maas"
Subject: Re: Ford claims ownership of images



> The Corvair was actually a pretty good vehicle, compromised only by
> the lack of an anti-sway bar on the base model for the first year.
> 'Unsafe at Any Speed' was a load of bollocks. Otherwise they didn't
> handle worse than most vehicles of that era, and better than many.
>
> Note the Beetle and early Porsche 911's shared almost identical
> suspension designs with the Corvair.

I wasn't talking about handling issues. The Corvair that we had was plagued 
enough by reliability issues that one didn't dare drive it fast enough to 
have handling problems.

William Robb 


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Re: Ford claims ownership of images

[William Robb]

- Original Message - 
From: "John Francis"
Subject: Re: Ford claims ownership of images



>>
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firestone_and_Ford_tire_controversy
>   ...
>
> In my opinion this demonstrates one of the big problems with wikipedia -
> it is by no means an authoritative source, but people treat it as such.
> Note that this article is flagged as possibly controversial or biased.
> It doesn't really show anything except "some people say that ...".
> It's tabloid journalism at best, not news, and certainly not evidence.

Some people won't admit to something no matter how much evidence you put in 
front of them, or who you source it from.
Wikipedia is as good a source as any in this instance, and I did cite other 
sources that said the same or similar in other posts.

William Robb 


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Re: Ford claims ownership of images

[P. J. Alling]

That was most probably Willy Sutton...

Ken Waller wrote:
>> It scares me a bit that they would need thay type of engineering 
>> expertise,
>> I suppose it is inevitable though.
>> 
>
> Welcome to today's world of big business, lawyers & lack of personal 
> responsibilities.
> Its a fact of life - kind of like what Dillinger (?) said when asked why he 
> robbed banks - "it where the money is".
>
> Most large firms employ technical advisors to assist in product litigation. 
> I had that job due to my 40 years of experience in the auto industry 
> covering all aspects of design, development, manufacturing & service.
>
>   
>> Operator error is unavoidable, manufacuterers need to take this into
>> account, especially when peoples lives depend on their error not killing
>> them.
>> Most 4x4s fail miserably in this regard.
>> 
>
> How about operators not understanding that vehicles like the Explorer are 
> not like other vehicles. The high ground clearance is there for a reason & 
> it produces operating characheristice different than the common car.
>
>
> Kenneth Waller
> http://www.tinyurl.com/272u2f
>
> - Original Message - 
> From: "William Robb" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Subject: Re: Ford claims ownership of images
>
>
>   
>> - Original Message - 
>> From: "Ken Waller"
>> Subject: Re: Ford claims ownership of images
>>
>>
>> 
>>> Believe what you want.
>>> I worked as a Mechanical Engineer in the design analysis group @ Ford for
>>> over 18 years. My function was to investigate vehicles involved in 
>>> product
>>> litigation, assist in technical defense, attend depositions & trials
>>> (expert
>>> witness).
>>>   
>> It scares me a bit that they would need thay type of engineering 
>> expertise,
>> I suppose it is inevitable though.
>>
>> 
>>> While I only handled a few of the Explorer rollovers cases, it was 
>>> obvious
>>> that most of the events were due to operator inexperience/operator error
>>> like improper maintained (tire inflation)/lack of driving instruction
>>> (controlling a vehicle with a blowout).
>>>   
>> Operator error is unavoidable, manufacuterers need to take this into
>> account, especially when peoples lives depend on their error not killing
>> them.
>> Most 4x4s fail miserably in this regard.
>> In construction, we have a term called variance. This is what could be
>> termed the margin of error. For example, when installing roof trusses, the
>> ideal situation is to have the truss completely covering the top plate of
>> the wall. On a 2x4 construction, you can have perhaps an inch of top plate
>> showing on the outside of the truss. Any more than that, and the structure
>> is compromised, since the wall can now only shift another inch or so under
>> the truss before there is a very real risk of failure of the truss system.
>> My understanding with the tire thing is that Ford took away almost all the
>> variance by recommending tire pressures that were very close to
>> underinflation.
>> Tire failure is inevitable at highway speeds with a loaded vehicle and 
>> soft
>> tires.
>>
>> 
>>> ABTW, my parents did own a 61 Corvair Monza, a great vehicle that GM
>>> killed
>>> prematurely IMHO.
>>>   
>> It probably could have been a great vehicle, had it actually been 
>> reliable.
>> My dad's Corvair spent almost all of it's short life (he only kept it for 
>> a
>> year before he tired of it's reliability issues) in the shop, and when he
>> went to trade it, discovered that it had almost no residual value at the 
>> GM
>> dealership.
>> The thing was so bad that GM didn't want it back on a trade-in.
>> This was a fairly common fate with the Corvair in this part of the world.
>>
>> William Robb
>>
>>
>>
>> -- 
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>
>
>   


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When it is complete the Bavarian Cream Illuminati will rule the world
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Re: Ford claims ownership of images

[Adam Maas]

On 1/15/08, William Robb <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> - Original Message -
DML Pentax-Discuss Mail List
> P> From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>
> Subject: Re: Ford claims ownership of images
>
>
> > Excellent, Ken. Please take the stand:-).
> > I find it very entertaining that so many people, who know so little about
> > automobiles, are always ready to trash the US auto industry. It's been a
> > popular indoor sport since Ralph and company kicked it off in the late
> > sixties with another misinformation campaign.
>
> Ya right. My parents owned a Corvair.
> You and Ken are hardly non partisan participants, since you both derive your
> livlihood from the US auto industry.
> I'll trust Car and Driver over a self intersted PR guy any day of the week,
> thank you very much.
>
> William Robb

The Corvair was actually a pretty good vehicle, compromised only by
the lack of an anti-sway bar on the base model for the first year.
'Unsafe at Any Speed' was a load of bollocks. Otherwise they didn't
handle worse than most vehicles of that era, and better than many.

Note the Beetle and early Porsche 911's shared almost identical
suspension designs with the Corvair.


-- 
M. Adam Maas
http://www.mawz.ca
Explorations of the City Around Us.

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Re: Ford claims ownership of images

[P. J. Alling]

Either they can or they'll buy something that gets better mileage.

Bob Sullivan wrote:
> Dave,
>
> I want to say most of the SUV drivers over here are a joke, but I'll
> restrain myself.  Rather, I'd say that a high proportion of the clowns
> you see on the road are in SUV's.  They are the ones driving their SUV
> too fast, following to close, and being impatient on the daily
> commute.
>
> And G*d help you when you get a little snow falling.  That's their
> signal to drop in the 4 wheel drive and rev the car up.  Total asses!
> It is no surprise that rollovers are a problem...clowns operating
> them.
>
> 99.4% of them will never have a legitimate need/use for an SUV.  I
> hope they are enjoying the high gas prices.
>
> Regards,  Bob S.
>
> On Jan 16, 2008 12:18 AM, David Savage <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>   
>> At 02:02 PM 16/01/2008, William Robb wrote:
>> 
>>> Operator error is unavoidable, manufacuterers need to take this into
>>> account, especially when peoples lives depend on their error not killing
>>> them.
>>> Most 4x4s fail miserably in this regard.
>>>   
>> It's the nature of the beast & for the same reason that tractors are
>> the most dangerous piece of farm machinery.
>>
>> High ride height + narrow wheelbase = exciting ride.
>>
>> I imagine the only way to make that type of vehicle stable is to:
>>
>> - Add a heap of lead ballast to the sump & diff housing :-)
>> - Widen the wheelbase
>> - Install some kind of active stabilised suspension system as standard.
>>
>> All have cost & performance drawbacks.
>>
>> As someone who lives in a city, I can't see the point of these
>> vehicles for most motorists.
>>
>> Cheers,
>>
>> Dave
>>
>>
>>
>> --
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>> 
>
>   


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Re: Ford claims ownership of images

[John Francis]

On Wed, Jan 16, 2008 at 12:14:40PM -0600, William Robb wrote:
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firestone_and_Ford_tire_controversy
   ...

In my opinion this demonstrates one of the big problems with wikipedia -
it is by no means an authoritative source, but people treat it as such.
Note that this article is flagged as possibly controversial or biased.
It doesn't really show anything except "some people say that ...".
It's tabloid journalism at best, not news, and certainly not evidence.


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Re: Ford claims ownership of images

[P. J. Alling]

People drive them because Tanks are not readily available...

David Savage wrote:
> At 02:02 PM 16/01/2008, William Robb wrote:
>   
>> Operator error is unavoidable, manufacuterers need to take this into
>> account, especially when peoples lives depend on their error not killing
>> them.
>> Most 4x4s fail miserably in this regard.
>> 
>
> It's the nature of the beast & for the same reason that tractors are 
> the most dangerous piece of farm machinery.
>
> High ride height + narrow wheelbase = exciting ride.
>
> I imagine the only way to make that type of vehicle stable is to:
>
> - Add a heap of lead ballast to the sump & diff housing :-)
> - Widen the wheelbase
> - Install some kind of active stabilised suspension system as standard.
>
> All have cost & performance drawbacks.
>
> As someone who lives in a city, I can't see the point of these 
> vehicles for most motorists.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Dave 
>
>
>   


-- 
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A union with the Bavarian Illuminati is contemplated. 
When it is complete the Bavarian Cream Illuminati will rule the world
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Re: Ford claims ownership of images

[William Robb]

- Original Message - 
From: "Ken Waller"
Subject: Re: Ford claims ownership of images


>>
> How about operators not understanding that vehicles like the Explorer are
> not like other vehicles. The high ground clearance is there for a reason &
> it produces operating characheristice different than the common car.


I don't think it reasonable to expect yer average soccer mom to deal well 
with a blow out at 75mph in an inherently unstable vehicle.
They just don't teach this in driver ed.
In the Explorer situation, Ford apparently went against the tire 
manufacturers recommendations regarding minimum inflation pressure, the 
result being that a vehicle at speed was running on dangerously hot tires 
which would, at some point, delaminate and fail.
Everything I've read about this from unbiased parties indicates that the 
Firestone tires (ATX, ATX II, and Wilderness AT) that were used on the 
explorers were perfectly safe, provided they were inflated to the tire 
manufacturers recommended  pressure of 35 pounds, and didn't fall below 
Firestones recommended minimum pressure of 30 pounds.
Unfortunately, the Exlporer running hard tires was, from what I have read, 
quite prone to tipping, hence the recommnendation from Ford to run the tires 
soft.
Most people outside of Ford and their PR departments place blame fairly 
equally on both Ford and Firestone
Ford should not have used those tires on the Explorer if they were insisting 
on tire pressures nearly 30% lower than what the tire maker was 
recommending.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firestone_and_Ford_tire_controversy
"Ford internal documents show the company engineers recommended changes to 
the vehicle design after it rolled over in company tests prior to 
introduction, but other than a few minor changes, the suspension and track 
width were not changed. Instead, Ford, which sets the specifications for the 
manufacture of its tires, decided to remove air from the tires, lowering the 
recommended psi to 26. The Firestone-recommended psi molded into the tire 
for maximum load is 35psi."

and
"Goodyear tires to the same specification have a spotless safety record when 
installed on the Explorer, although an extra liner was included into the 
Goodyear design after recommendations to that effect were made to Ford."

It sounds like Goodyear didn't want to get into the same mess that Ford put 
Firestone into.

William Robb



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Re: Ford claims ownership of images

[David J Brooks]

On Jan 16, 2008 12:35 PM, William Robb <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> - Original Message -
> From: "David J Brooks"
> Subject: Re: Ford claims ownership of images
>
>
> >
> >
> > I'm not sure if this will go any were but its in discussion  stage now.
> >
>
>  Unfortunately, it happened on a slight curve, and I ended up
> driving into the ditch while under complete control of my truck.
> I wonder how the proposed law would deal with this sort of situation.

Me to. If its going to be left up to the cop that shows up, we're in trouble.



Dave
>
> William Robb
>
>
>
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Re: Ford claims ownership of images

[William Robb]

- Original Message - 
From: "Christian"
Subject: Re: Ford claims ownership of images



> Just the opposite in Washington, DC, home of the weather wimps.  One
> snowflake and EVERY SUV on the road is stranded.  Shit, a little rain
> grinds them to a halt.  In 8 years with my Honda Civic, I've never been
> stuck in the snow (we've had everything from a dusting to 2.5 feet in a
> day), had issues going up a snowy hill, or been in a weather-related
> accident.  Yet I've seen hundreds of SUVs stranded on the side of the
> road, abandoned in the middle of the highway, or incapable of going up a
> hill.  It all boils down to the utter stupidity of the operators.

It's quite amazing, isn't it? SUV's should be the most competent passenger 
vehicles on the road when the weather turns sour. The vehicles that are 
doing really well here are the little SUVs, the Subaru Foresters, Suzukis, 
Honda CRV, Nissan X-Trail and their ilk. They are small and light enough to 
have decent fuel economy, have enough ground clearance to not get hung up on 
a snow covered rumble strip, and have AWD or 4WD for traction.

When I was driving around south Utah last spring, one of the most apropos 
things I saw was a humungous cabin cruiser, probably close to 40 feet long, 
being towed by a Nissan Armada. I was traveling about 120kph, and this rig 
passed me.

William Robb 


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Re: Ford claims ownership of images

[William Robb]

- Original Message - 
From: "David J Brooks"
Subject: Re: Ford claims ownership of images


>
>
> I'm not sure if this will go any were but its in discussion  stage now.
>

Hey, if it makes the government money, it'll pass. I was driving to work a 
couple of winters ago, and ended up in the ditch. I was in 4WD, was driving 
well under the speed limit, as conditions were terrible, and got whited out 
by a wind gust. Unfortunately, it happened on a slight curve, and I ended up 
driving into the ditch while under complete control of my truck.
I wonder how the proposed law would deal with this sort of situation.

William Robb 


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Re: Ford claims ownership of images

[Ken Waller]

> It scares me a bit that they would need thay type of engineering 
> expertise,
> I suppose it is inevitable though.

Welcome to today's world of big business, lawyers & lack of personal 
responsibilities.
Its a fact of life - kind of like what Dillinger (?) said when asked why he 
robbed banks - "it where the money is".

Most large firms employ technical advisors to assist in product litigation. 
I had that job due to my 40 years of experience in the auto industry 
covering all aspects of design, development, manufacturing & service.

> Operator error is unavoidable, manufacuterers need to take this into
> account, especially when peoples lives depend on their error not killing
> them.
> Most 4x4s fail miserably in this regard.

How about operators not understanding that vehicles like the Explorer are 
not like other vehicles. The high ground clearance is there for a reason & 
it produces operating characheristice different than the common car.


Kenneth Waller
http://www.tinyurl.com/272u2f

- Original Message - 
From: "William Robb" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Ford claims ownership of images


>
> - Original Message - 
> From: "Ken Waller"
> Subject: Re: Ford claims ownership of images
>
>
>> Believe what you want.
>> I worked as a Mechanical Engineer in the design analysis group @ Ford for
>> over 18 years. My function was to investigate vehicles involved in 
>> product
>> litigation, assist in technical defense, attend depositions & trials
>> (expert
>> witness).
>
> It scares me a bit that they would need thay type of engineering 
> expertise,
> I suppose it is inevitable though.
>
>>
>> While I only handled a few of the Explorer rollovers cases, it was 
>> obvious
>> that most of the events were due to operator inexperience/operator error
>> like improper maintained (tire inflation)/lack of driving instruction
>> (controlling a vehicle with a blowout).
>
> Operator error is unavoidable, manufacuterers need to take this into
> account, especially when peoples lives depend on their error not killing
> them.
> Most 4x4s fail miserably in this regard.
> In construction, we have a term called variance. This is what could be
> termed the margin of error. For example, when installing roof trusses, the
> ideal situation is to have the truss completely covering the top plate of
> the wall. On a 2x4 construction, you can have perhaps an inch of top plate
> showing on the outside of the truss. Any more than that, and the structure
> is compromised, since the wall can now only shift another inch or so under
> the truss before there is a very real risk of failure of the truss system.
> My understanding with the tire thing is that Ford took away almost all the
> variance by recommending tire pressures that were very close to
> underinflation.
> Tire failure is inevitable at highway speeds with a loaded vehicle and 
> soft
> tires.
>
>>
>> ABTW, my parents did own a 61 Corvair Monza, a great vehicle that GM
>> killed
>> prematurely IMHO.
>
> It probably could have been a great vehicle, had it actually been 
> reliable.
> My dad's Corvair spent almost all of it's short life (he only kept it for 
> a
> year before he tired of it's reliability issues) in the shop, and when he
> went to trade it, discovered that it had almost no residual value at the 
> GM
> dealership.
> The thing was so bad that GM didn't want it back on a trade-in.
> This was a fairly common fate with the Corvair in this part of the world.
>
> William Robb
>
>
>
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Re: Ford claims ownership of images

[David J Brooks]

On Jan 16, 2008 11:57 AM, Christian <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Just the opposite in Washington, DC, home of the weather wimps.  One
> snowflake and EVERY SUV on the road is stranded.

I used to work in Northern Ontario, places like Thunder Bay etc. It is
not uncomment to get 4-6' of snow a winter. Up there, we deal with it,
drive slow and arrive alive.

I laugh now that i'm back in the Toronto area during winter.(although
i do feel for Frank, out on his bike non the less.:-))
1-2cm is enough to create havoc and over a 1000 Hwy accidents to boot.
No one slows down, they still drive at hwy speeds then wipe out.
There is talk here in Ontario, for a law, that if you slid off the
road into a ditch, it will be assumed you drove to fast for conditions
and will get a fine.

I'm not sure if this will go any were but its in discussion  stage now.

Dave


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Re: Ford claims ownership of images

[Christian]

Bob Sullivan wrote:
> 
> And G*d help you when you get a little snow falling.  That's their
> signal to drop in the 4 wheel drive and rev the car up.  Total asses!
> It is no surprise that rollovers are a problem...clowns operating
> them.

Just the opposite in Washington, DC, home of the weather wimps.  One 
snowflake and EVERY SUV on the road is stranded.  Shit, a little rain 
grinds them to a halt.  In 8 years with my Honda Civic, I've never been 
stuck in the snow (we've had everything from a dusting to 2.5 feet in a 
day), had issues going up a snowy hill, or been in a weather-related 
accident.  Yet I've seen hundreds of SUVs stranded on the side of the 
road, abandoned in the middle of the highway, or incapable of going up a 
hill.  It all boils down to the utter stupidity of the operators.

-- 

Christian
http://photography.skofteland.net

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Re: Ford claims ownership of images

[David J Brooks]

On Jan 16, 2008 10:57 AM, William Robb <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> - Original Message -
> From: "David Savage"
> Subject: Re: Ford claims ownership of images
>
>
>
> >
> > As someone who lives in a city, I can't see the point of these
> > vehicles for most motorists.
>
> You don't live in a place that can get a foot of snow overnight.
>
> William Robb

I used to. Ahhh, the good ol days

Dave
>
>
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Re: Ford claims ownership of images

[William Robb]

- Original Message - 
From: "David Savage" 
Subject: Re: Ford claims ownership of images



> 
> As someone who lives in a city, I can't see the point of these 
> vehicles for most motorists.

You don't live in a place that can get a foot of snow overnight.

William Robb

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Re: Ford claims ownership of images

[William Robb]

- Original Message - 
From: "Paul Stenquist" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Pentax-Discuss Mail List" 
Sent: Wednesday, January 16, 2008 5:09 AM
Subject: Re: Ford claims ownership of images


>
> Unfortunately, Explorer had the crappiest tires of any truck-based
> SUVs, and it was sold in the most volume. Thus, it had the most
> rollovers. If Ford is at all to blame, it would be for using
> Firestone tires.

http://www.fordexplorerrollover.com/rollover_rates/Default.cfm
"John Lampe, Firestone's executive vice president, said, "Tires will fail,
and do so for a number or reasons. In most cases, a vehicle that experiences
a tire failure can be brought safely under control. However, we have seen an
alarming number of serious accidents from rollovers of the Explorer after a
tire failure."
One reason, Lampe suggested, was Ford's advice to inflate Explorer tires to
26 pounds per square inch, lower than Firestone's recommendation of 30
pounds and lower than the pressure recommended for other popular SUVs. The
26-pound level left "little safety margin," Lampe said. Heat that can cause
a failure builds up faster in a flatter tire carrying a heavy load in hot
weather. (Ford said 26 psi is safe but recently accepted Firestone's
recommendation and increased the suggested tire pressure to 30 psi.)"



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Re: Re: Ford claims ownership of images

[mike wilson]

> From: "Bob Sullivan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

> 99.4% of them will never have a legitimate need/use for an SUV.  I
> hope they are enjoying the high gas prices.

After buying a vehicle named paradoxically, how could they expect to be taken 
seriously by anyone?  Especially the people who sold it to them..


-
Email sent from www.virginmedia.com/email
Virus-checked using McAfee(R) Software and scanned for spam


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Re: Ford claims ownership of images

[Bob Sullivan]

Dave,

I want to say most of the SUV drivers over here are a joke, but I'll
restrain myself.  Rather, I'd say that a high proportion of the clowns
you see on the road are in SUV's.  They are the ones driving their SUV
too fast, following to close, and being impatient on the daily
commute.

And G*d help you when you get a little snow falling.  That's their
signal to drop in the 4 wheel drive and rev the car up.  Total asses!
It is no surprise that rollovers are a problem...clowns operating
them.

99.4% of them will never have a legitimate need/use for an SUV.  I
hope they are enjoying the high gas prices.

Regards,  Bob S.

On Jan 16, 2008 12:18 AM, David Savage <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> At 02:02 PM 16/01/2008, William Robb wrote:
> >Operator error is unavoidable, manufacuterers need to take this into
> >account, especially when peoples lives depend on their error not killing
> >them.
> >Most 4x4s fail miserably in this regard.
>
> It's the nature of the beast & for the same reason that tractors are
> the most dangerous piece of farm machinery.
>
> High ride height + narrow wheelbase = exciting ride.
>
> I imagine the only way to make that type of vehicle stable is to:
>
> - Add a heap of lead ballast to the sump & diff housing :-)
> - Widen the wheelbase
> - Install some kind of active stabilised suspension system as standard.
>
> All have cost & performance drawbacks.
>
> As someone who lives in a city, I can't see the point of these
> vehicles for most motorists.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Dave
>
>
>
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Re: Ford claims ownership of images

[Paul Stenquist]

I hope you've changed your socks more than seven times in the last  
quarter century. Advertising writers change jobs frequently. That's  
the only way to get large increases. In my 25 years in the ad biz,  
I've worked at seven different agencies on the business of at least  
ten car companies, so I'm really beholding to no one. I'm now working  
on a Japanese brand. Before I was an ad writer, I was an automotive  
journalist. I did freelance work for many magazines. I had a  
permanent arrangement with Popular Mechanics for many years. I never  
worked for Popular Science, but I knew most of their writers. They  
may well have wrongly attributed blame for the tire problems to Ford.  
Like all truck-based SUVs, the Explorer was a compromise. Any vehicle  
with a lot of ground clearance can be rolled if you try hard enough.  
Unfortunately, Explorer had the crappiest tires of any truck-based  
SUVs, and it was sold in the most volume. Thus, it had the most  
rollovers. If Ford is at all to blame, it would be for using  
Firestone tires.
Paul
On Jan 16, 2008, at 12:14 AM, William Robb wrote:

>
> - Original Message -
> From: "Paul Stenquist"
> Subject: Re: Ford claims ownership of images
>
>
>> But I'll bet Car & Driver never said that. I'll ask Tony Swan. But if
>> they did say it, they were wrong. I know for a fact Popular Mechanics
>> didn't say it. I was working for them at the time.
>
> Whatever Paul. I've started to think you've changed jobs more often  
> than
> I've changed my socks.
> If it wasn't Pop Mechanics, it was Popular Science, as that was the  
> two
> magaizines that habitually sat in the staff room at where I worked.
> Sorry for the confusion, though you may have worked at Pop Sci too,  
> for all
> I know.
>
> William Robb
>
>
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Re: Ford claims ownership of images

[David Savage]

At 02:02 PM 16/01/2008, William Robb wrote:
>Operator error is unavoidable, manufacuterers need to take this into
>account, especially when peoples lives depend on their error not killing
>them.
>Most 4x4s fail miserably in this regard.

It's the nature of the beast & for the same reason that tractors are 
the most dangerous piece of farm machinery.

High ride height + narrow wheelbase = exciting ride.

I imagine the only way to make that type of vehicle stable is to:

- Add a heap of lead ballast to the sump & diff housing :-)
- Widen the wheelbase
- Install some kind of active stabilised suspension system as standard.

All have cost & performance drawbacks.

As someone who lives in a city, I can't see the point of these 
vehicles for most motorists.

Cheers,

Dave 


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Re: Ford claims ownership of images

[William Robb]

- Original Message - 
From: "Paul Stenquist"
Subject: Re: Ford claims ownership of images


> But I'll bet Car & Driver never said that. I'll ask Tony Swan. But if
> they did say it, they were wrong. I know for a fact Popular Mechanics
> didn't say it. I was working for them at the time.

Whatever Paul. I've started to think you've changed jobs more often than 
I've changed my socks.
If it wasn't Pop Mechanics, it was Popular Science, as that was the two 
magaizines that habitually sat in the staff room at where I worked.
Sorry for the confusion, though you may have worked at Pop Sci too, for all 
I know.

William Robb 


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Re: Ford claims ownership of images

[William Robb]

- Original Message - 
From: "Ken Waller"
Subject: Re: Ford claims ownership of images


> Believe what you want.
> I worked as a Mechanical Engineer in the design analysis group @ Ford for
> over 18 years. My function was to investigate vehicles involved in product
> litigation, assist in technical defense, attend depositions & trials 
> (expert
> witness).

It scares me a bit that they would need thay type of engineering expertise, 
I suppose it is inevitable though.

>
> While I only handled a few of the Explorer rollovers cases, it was obvious
> that most of the events were due to operator inexperience/operator error
> like improper maintained (tire inflation)/lack of driving instruction
> (controlling a vehicle with a blowout).

Operator error is unavoidable, manufacuterers need to take this into 
account, especially when peoples lives depend on their error not killing 
them.
Most 4x4s fail miserably in this regard.
In construction, we have a term called variance. This is what could be 
termed the margin of error. For example, when installing roof trusses, the 
ideal situation is to have the truss completely covering the top plate of 
the wall. On a 2x4 construction, you can have perhaps an inch of top plate 
showing on the outside of the truss. Any more than that, and the structure 
is compromised, since the wall can now only shift another inch or so under 
the truss before there is a very real risk of failure of the truss system.
My understanding with the tire thing is that Ford took away almost all the 
variance by recommending tire pressures that were very close to 
underinflation.
Tire failure is inevitable at highway speeds with a loaded vehicle and soft 
tires.

>
> ABTW, my parents did own a 61 Corvair Monza, a great vehicle that GM 
> killed
> prematurely IMHO.

It probably could have been a great vehicle, had it actually been reliable. 
My dad's Corvair spent almost all of it's short life (he only kept it for a 
year before he tired of it's reliability issues) in the shop, and when he 
went to trade it, discovered that it had almost no residual value at the GM 
dealership.
The thing was so bad that GM didn't want it back on a trade-in.
This was a fairly common fate with the Corvair in this part of the world.

William Robb



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Re: Ford claims ownership of images

[Ken Waller]

Believe what you want.
I worked as a Mechanical Engineer in the design analysis group @ Ford for 
over 18 years. My function was to investigate vehicles involved in product 
litigation, assist in technical defense, attend depositions & trials (expert 
witness).

While I only handled a few of the Explorer rollovers cases, it was obvious 
that most of the events were due to operator inexperience/operator error 
like improper maintained (tire inflation)/lack of driving instruction 
(controlling a vehicle with a blowout).

ABTW, my parents did own a 61 Corvair Monza, a great vehicle that GM killed 
prematurely IMHO.

Kenneth Waller
http://www.tinyurl.com/272u2f

- Original Message - 
From: "William Robb" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Ford claims ownership of images


>
> - Original Message - 
> From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>
> Subject: Re: Ford claims ownership of images
>
>
>> Excellent, Ken. Please take the stand:-).
>> I find it very entertaining that so many people, who know so little about
>> automobiles, are always ready to trash the US auto industry. It's been a
>> popular indoor sport since Ralph and company kicked it off in the late
>> sixties with another misinformation campaign.
>
> Ya right. My parents owned a Corvair.
> You and Ken are hardly non partisan participants, since you both derive 
> your
> livlihood from the US auto industry.
> I'll trust Car and Driver over a self intersted PR guy any day of the 
> week,
> thank you very much.
>
> William Robb


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Re: Ford claims ownership of images

[Paul Stenquist]

But I'll bet Car & Driver never said that. I'll ask Tony Swan. But if  
they did say it, they were wrong. I know for a fact Popular Mechanics  
didn't say it. I was working for them at the time.
Paul
On Jan 15, 2008, at 6:36 PM, William Robb wrote:

>
> - Original Message -
> From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>
> Subject: Re: Ford claims ownership of images
>
>
>> Excellent, Ken. Please take the stand:-).
>> I find it very entertaining that so many people, who know so  
>> little about
>> automobiles, are always ready to trash the US auto industry. It's  
>> been a
>> popular indoor sport since Ralph and company kicked it off in the  
>> late
>> sixties with another misinformation campaign.
>
> Ya right. My parents owned a Corvair.
> You and Ken are hardly non partisan participants, since you both  
> derive your
> livlihood from the US auto industry.
> I'll trust Car and Driver over a self intersted PR guy any day of  
> the week,
> thank you very much.
>
> William Robb
>
>
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Re: Ford claims ownership of images

[William Robb]

- Original Message - 
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

Subject: Re: Ford claims ownership of images


> Excellent, Ken. Please take the stand:-).
> I find it very entertaining that so many people, who know so little about 
> automobiles, are always ready to trash the US auto industry. It's been a 
> popular indoor sport since Ralph and company kicked it off in the late 
> sixties with another misinformation campaign.

Ya right. My parents owned a Corvair.
You and Ken are hardly non partisan participants, since you both derive your 
livlihood from the US auto industry.
I'll trust Car and Driver over a self intersted PR guy any day of the week, 
thank you very much.

William Robb


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Re: Ford claims ownership of images

[P. J. Alling]

That is correct.  They are strictly off limits.  You cannot use someone 
else's trade mark, and in the case of a stock photo containing jewelry 
there is more than a little chance that a Jewelry Store  purchasing it 
for advertising, and not being a Tiffany distributor. might run afoul of 
that.  However that is a very different case than the one that Ford's 
ham handed legal department is creating.  You can make and sell 
photographs of  trademarked items clearly showing the trademark  as long 
as you don't claim the trademark as your own. 

Brendan MacRae wrote:
> No, in the Tiffany case it was the stock company not
> wanting to face possible litigation, just like Cafe
> Press. Trademarks are strictly off limits unless you
> get permission or can prove public domain.
>
> -Brendan
> --- "P. J. Alling" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>   
>> You can never get enough advertising.  However that
>> was just an aside.  
>> Ford would lose this in court, their claim is
>> frivolous.  Ford is in no 
>> way harmed, no one is going to confuse the car club
>> with Ford Motor 
>> Company.  If loser paid Ford would never have
>> brought the action.
>> (Right now it has the possibility of becoming free
>> bad advertising.)  
>> Part of the reason that production companies go
>> through the trouble of 
>> obscuring all trademarks is to not give free
>> advertising, if you want 
>> product placement you have to pay for it.  All of
>> the items cited by 
>> Annsan would also most likely not hold up in court. 
>> However Cafe Press 
>> doesn't want to go through the trouble of fighting
>> them, which is 
>> understandable, they're not in the business of
>> protecting artists 
>> rights, they're in the business of selling products.
>>  Now there may have 
>> been a reason for Tiffany being obscured in your
>> picture, if it was for 
>> an advertisement of a similar product, or one that
>> Tiffany could be 
>> construed as endorsing.  That's another matter. 
>>
>> Brendan MacRae wrote:
>> 
>>> --- "P. J. Alling" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>>   
>> wrote:
>> 
>>>   
>>>   
 It isn't advertising, it can be photographed in
 public.  Sorry, the only 
 reason to remove the logo is to avoid a frivolous
 law suit, if the loser 
 had to pay in the US Ford would never have
 
>> brought
>> 
 it.  This is entirely 
 covered under fair use.  Ford should be happy for
 the free advertising.

 
 
>>> It isn't free advertising. It's Ford wanting to
>>>   
>> limit
>> 
>>> 3rd party profit through the use of their
>>>   
>> trademarks.
>> 
>>> Ford gets all the free advertising it needs with
>>>   
>> every
>> 
>>> blue oval they slap on their cars.
>>>
>>> -Brendan
>>>
>>>
>>>  
>>>   
> 
>   
>>> Be a better friend, newshound, and 
>>> know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile.  Try it now. 
>>>   
> http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ
>   
>>>   
>>>   
>> -- 
>> I am personally a member of the Cream of the
>> Illuminati. 
>> A union with the Bavarian Illuminati is
>> contemplated. 
>> When it is complete the Bavarian Cream Illuminati
>> will rule the world
>>  -- Anonymous 
>>
>>
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>
>
>
>   
> 
> Looking for last minute shopping deals?  
> Find them fast with Yahoo! Search.  
> http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping
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Re: Ford claims ownership of images

[pnstenquist]

Excellent, Ken. Please take the stand:-).
I find it very entertaining that so many people, who know so little about 
automobiles, are always ready to trash the US auto industry. It's been a 
popular indoor sport since Ralph and company kicked it off in the late sixties 
with another misinformation campaign.
Paul
 -- Original message --
From: "Ken Waller" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >...the tire issue turned out to be primarily a Ford problem, in that the 
> >Explorer suspension
> >was inherently unstable...
> 
> Not so. The Explorer suspension was not unique to the vehicle.
> 
> >...so they chose a small tire and listed dangerously low inflation 
> >pressures in the manual to drop the center of >gravity so as to stabilize 
> >the vehicle rather than re-engineer the suspension and fix their
> >own screw up.
> 
> The tire size was consistent with other similar vehicles. The specified 
> inflation pressure was within the recommendations of Firestone.
> There were several other factors involved - Firestone made a change to the 
> internal construction of the tire used which made it less robust & tire 
> inflation was not monitored by the owner/drivers. The tire failures were 
> mainly blow outs, resulting in loss of control by the operator & subsequent 
> roll over if not controlled properly.
> 
> 
> > Essentially, they chose to kill their customers
> 
> Yep, that's the goal of most companies
> 
> 
> >...and blame Firestone rather than fix their shitty vehicles.
> 
> That explains why it has been the best selling SUV in its class.
> 
> Kenneth Waller
> http://www.tinyurl.com/272u2f
> 
> - Original Message - 
> From: "William Robb" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Subject: Re: Ford claims ownership of images
> 
> 
> >
> > - Original Message - 
> > From: "Ken Waller"
> > Subject: Re: Ford claims ownership of images
> >
> >
> >>> Quick! Somebody go roll-over an Explorer,
> >>
> >> Just make sure it has Firestone tires on...
> >
> > I read in Popular Mechanics and I believe Car and Driver that the tire 
> > issue
> > turned out to be primarily a Ford problem, in that the Explorer suspension
> > was inherently unstable, so they chose a small tire and listed dangerously
> > low inflation pressures in the manual to drop the center of gravity so as 
> > to
> > stabilize the vehicle rather than re-engineer the suspension and fix their
> > own screw up.
> >
> > Essentially, they chose to kill their customers and blame Firestone rather
> > than fix their shitty vehicles.
> >
> > William Robb
> 
> 
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Re: Ford claims ownership of images

[Brendan MacRae]

No, in the Tiffany case it was the stock company not
wanting to face possible litigation, just like Cafe
Press. Trademarks are strictly off limits unless you
get permission or can prove public domain.

-Brendan
--- "P. J. Alling" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> You can never get enough advertising.  However that
> was just an aside.  
> Ford would lose this in court, their claim is
> frivolous.  Ford is in no 
> way harmed, no one is going to confuse the car club
> with Ford Motor 
> Company.  If loser paid Ford would never have
> brought the action.
> (Right now it has the possibility of becoming free
> bad advertising.)  
> Part of the reason that production companies go
> through the trouble of 
> obscuring all trademarks is to not give free
> advertising, if you want 
> product placement you have to pay for it.  All of
> the items cited by 
> Annsan would also most likely not hold up in court. 
> However Cafe Press 
> doesn't want to go through the trouble of fighting
> them, which is 
> understandable, they're not in the business of
> protecting artists 
> rights, they're in the business of selling products.
>  Now there may have 
> been a reason for Tiffany being obscured in your
> picture, if it was for 
> an advertisement of a similar product, or one that
> Tiffany could be 
> construed as endorsing.  That's another matter. 
> 
> Brendan MacRae wrote:
> > --- "P. J. Alling" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> wrote:
> >
> >   
> >> It isn't advertising, it can be photographed in
> >> public.  Sorry, the only 
> >> reason to remove the logo is to avoid a frivolous
> >> law suit, if the loser 
> >> had to pay in the US Ford would never have
> brought
> >> it.  This is entirely 
> >> covered under fair use.  Ford should be happy for
> >> the free advertising.
> >>
> >> 
> >
> > It isn't free advertising. It's Ford wanting to
> limit
> > 3rd party profit through the use of their
> trademarks.
> >
> > Ford gets all the free advertising it needs with
> every
> > blue oval they slap on their cars.
> >
> > -Brendan
> >
> >
> >  
>

> > Be a better friend, newshound, and 
> > know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile.  Try it now. 
>
http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ
> 
> >
> >
> >   
> 
> 
> -- 
> I am personally a member of the Cream of the
> Illuminati. 
> A union with the Bavarian Illuminati is
> contemplated. 
> When it is complete the Bavarian Cream Illuminati
> will rule the world
>   -- Anonymous 
> 
> 
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Re: Ford claims ownership of images

[Ken Waller]

>...the tire issue turned out to be primarily a Ford problem, in that the 
>Explorer suspension
>was inherently unstable...

Not so. The Explorer suspension was not unique to the vehicle.

>...so they chose a small tire and listed dangerously low inflation 
>pressures in the manual to drop the center of >gravity so as to stabilize 
>the vehicle rather than re-engineer the suspension and fix their
>own screw up.

The tire size was consistent with other similar vehicles. The specified 
inflation pressure was within the recommendations of Firestone.
There were several other factors involved - Firestone made a change to the 
internal construction of the tire used which made it less robust & tire 
inflation was not monitored by the owner/drivers. The tire failures were 
mainly blow outs, resulting in loss of control by the operator & subsequent 
roll over if not controlled properly.


> Essentially, they chose to kill their customers

Yep, that's the goal of most companies


>...and blame Firestone rather than fix their shitty vehicles.

That explains why it has been the best selling SUV in its class.

Kenneth Waller
http://www.tinyurl.com/272u2f

- Original Message - 
From: "William Robb" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Ford claims ownership of images


>
> - Original Message ----- 
> From: "Ken Waller"
> Subject: Re: Ford claims ownership of images
>
>
>>> Quick! Somebody go roll-over an Explorer,
>>
>> Just make sure it has Firestone tires on...
>
> I read in Popular Mechanics and I believe Car and Driver that the tire 
> issue
> turned out to be primarily a Ford problem, in that the Explorer suspension
> was inherently unstable, so they chose a small tire and listed dangerously
> low inflation pressures in the manual to drop the center of gravity so as 
> to
> stabilize the vehicle rather than re-engineer the suspension and fix their
> own screw up.
>
> Essentially, they chose to kill their customers and blame Firestone rather
> than fix their shitty vehicles.
>
> William Robb


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Re: Ford claims ownership of images

[P. J. Alling]

You can never get enough advertising.  However that was just an aside.  
Ford would lose this in court, their claim is frivolous.  Ford is in no 
way harmed, no one is going to confuse the car club with Ford Motor 
Company.  If loser paid Ford would never have brought the action.
(Right now it has the possibility of becoming free bad advertising.)  
Part of the reason that production companies go through the trouble of 
obscuring all trademarks is to not give free advertising, if you want 
product placement you have to pay for it.  All of the items cited by 
Annsan would also most likely not hold up in court.  However Cafe Press 
doesn't want to go through the trouble of fighting them, which is 
understandable, they're not in the business of protecting artists 
rights, they're in the business of selling products.  Now there may have 
been a reason for Tiffany being obscured in your picture, if it was for 
an advertisement of a similar product, or one that Tiffany could be 
construed as endorsing.  That's another matter. 

Brendan MacRae wrote:
> --- "P. J. Alling" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>   
>> It isn't advertising, it can be photographed in
>> public.  Sorry, the only 
>> reason to remove the logo is to avoid a frivolous
>> law suit, if the loser 
>> had to pay in the US Ford would never have brought
>> it.  This is entirely 
>> covered under fair use.  Ford should be happy for
>> the free advertising.
>>
>> 
>
> It isn't free advertising. It's Ford wanting to limit
> 3rd party profit through the use of their trademarks.
>
> Ford gets all the free advertising it needs with every
> blue oval they slap on their cars.
>
> -Brendan
>
>
>   
> 
> Be a better friend, newshound, and 
> know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile.  Try it now.  
> http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ 
>
>
>   


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A union with the Bavarian Illuminati is contemplated. 
When it is complete the Bavarian Cream Illuminati will rule the world
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Re: Ford claims ownership of images

[Scott Loveless]

William Robb wrote:
> - Original Message - 
> From: "Ken Waller"
> Subject: Re: Ford claims ownership of images
> 
> 
>>> Quick! Somebody go roll-over an Explorer,
>> Just make sure it has Firestone tires on...
> 
> I read in Popular Mechanics and I believe Car and Driver that the tire issue 
> turned out to be primarily a Ford problem, in that the Explorer suspension 
> was inherently unstable, so they chose a small tire and listed dangerously 
> low inflation pressures in the manual to drop the center of gravity so as to 
> stabilize the vehicle rather than re-engineer the suspension and fix their 
> own screw up.
> 
> Essentially, they chose to kill their customers and blame Firestone rather 
> than fix their shitty vehicles.
> 
That is essentially correct.  They also had some complaints about road 
noise from customers who bought Exploders with those tires.  Ford's 
"fix" was to drop the pressure below Firestone's recommendation.  Two 
birds and all that crap.

Chrysler apparently paid attention to all the hoopla.  When the Liberty 
first hit the street it had a similar stability problem.  The initial 
batch was recalled and they were lowered a small amount.

-- 
Scott Loveless
http://www.twosixteen.com/fivetoedsloth/

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Re: Ford claims ownership of images

[Brendan MacRae]

--- "P. J. Alling" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> It isn't advertising, it can be photographed in
> public.  Sorry, the only 
> reason to remove the logo is to avoid a frivolous
> law suit, if the loser 
> had to pay in the US Ford would never have brought
> it.  This is entirely 
> covered under fair use.  Ford should be happy for
> the free advertising.
> 

It isn't free advertising. It's Ford wanting to limit
3rd party profit through the use of their trademarks.

Ford gets all the free advertising it needs with every
blue oval they slap on their cars.

-Brendan


  

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Re: Ford claims ownership of images

[Brendan MacRae]

--- William Robb <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


> This is where the calender people are running afoul
> of things. If the brand 
> or nameplates are recognizable, they probably are in
> violation of copyright 
> law, if the vehicle is recognizable as a particular
> make/model, they may be 
> in violation as well.
> I think Ford is being pretty stupid to push the
> issue, though if it showed 
> their product in a bad way, they would be wise to
> pursue it.
> 
> William Robb 

I agree with that. I would guess Ford's legal dept is
trying to stay consistant and not allow some use here
and there while restricting others. Inconsistancy
could hurt them ...down the road (pun intended).

-Brendan



  

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Re: Ford claims ownership of images

[William Robb]

- Original Message - 
From: "Ken Waller"
Subject: Re: Ford claims ownership of images


>> Quick! Somebody go roll-over an Explorer,
>
> Just make sure it has Firestone tires on...

I read in Popular Mechanics and I believe Car and Driver that the tire issue 
turned out to be primarily a Ford problem, in that the Explorer suspension 
was inherently unstable, so they chose a small tire and listed dangerously 
low inflation pressures in the manual to drop the center of gravity so as to 
stabilize the vehicle rather than re-engineer the suspension and fix their 
own screw up.

Essentially, they chose to kill their customers and blame Firestone rather 
than fix their shitty vehicles.

William Robb 


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Re: Ford claims ownership of images

[William Robb]

- Original Message - 
From: "Brendan MacRae"
Subject: Re: Ford claims ownership of images


>
> --- ann sanfedele <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>> Brendan MacRae wrote:
>>
>> >What law is it that I need to check? If you own the
>> >rights to a company logo you have a legal claim on
>> how
>> >it is displayed and by whom. This doesn't apply to
>> >newspapers and television images, however.
>> >
>> ah, but nonetheless, I've been told my a back-stage
>> guy in the industry that
>> when programs are shooting  say a scene in a store
>> for, say, Law and Order
>> the post-processing people are busy blurring out the
>> names of products
>> on shelves
>> if the original shots were too sharp.
>>
>
> Right. My reference to TV is for news broadcasting,
> not teleplays. That which is within the "public
> interest."

This is where the calender people are running afoul of things. If the brand 
or nameplates are recognizable, they probably are in violation of copyright 
law, if the vehicle is recognizable as a particular make/model, they may be 
in violation as well.
I think Ford is being pretty stupid to push the issue, though if it showed 
their product in a bad way, they would be wise to pursue it.

William Robb 


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Re: Ford claims ownership of images

[Ken Waller]

> Quick! Somebody go roll-over an Explorer,

Just make sure it has Firestone tires on...

Kenneth Waller
http://www.tinyurl.com/272u2f

- Original Message - 
From: "Stan Halpin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Ford claims ownership of images


> Quick! Somebody go roll-over an Explorer, and then sue Ford; their
> lawyers have way too much time on their hands.
>
> stan
>
> On Jan 14, 2008, at 5:01 PM, Sandy Harris wrote:
>
>> A Mustang owners club wants to do a calendar using photos of
>> members' cars.
>> Ford's lawyers object.
>>
>> http://www.adrants.com/2008/01/ford-slaps-brand-enthusiasts-
>> returns.php
>>
>> So does your next photo need a model release from every company
>> whose products happen to be in it? This is insanity!
>>
>> -- 
>> Sandy Harris,
>> Nanjing, China
>>
>> -- 
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Re: Ford claims ownership of images

[Brendan MacRae]

--- ann sanfedele <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Brendan MacRae wrote:
> 
> >What law is it that I need to check? If you own the
> >rights to a company logo you have a legal claim on
> how
> >it is displayed and by whom. This doesn't apply to
> >newspapers and television images, however.
> >
> ah, but nonetheless, I've been told my a back-stage
> guy in the industry that
> when programs are shooting  say a scene in a store
> for, say, Law and Order
> the post-processing people are busy blurring out the
> names of products 
> on shelves
> if the original shots were too sharp.
> 

Right. My reference to TV is for news broadcasting,
not teleplays. That which is within the "public
interest."

-Brendan


  

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Re: Ford claims ownership of images

[P. J. Alling]

It isn't advertising, it can be photographed in public.  Sorry, the only 
reason to remove the logo is to avoid a frivolous law suit, if the loser 
had to pay in the US Ford would never have brought it.  This is entirely 
covered under fair use.  Ford should be happy for the free advertising.

Brendan MacRae wrote:
> What law is it that I need to check? If you own the
> rights to a company logo you have a legal claim on how
> it is displayed and by whom. This doesn't apply to
> newspapers and television images, however.
>
> Reproducing logos without permission (like those in
> photographs) is rarely allowed by the trademark owner.
> In some cases, companies even assert tight controls
> over the "shapes" of their products (like the classic
> Coke bottle) and have taken folks to court to restrict
> their unauthorized use.
>
> I once submitted a shot for stock where a woman was
> wearing a Tiffany & Co. necklace. In order to see the
> name you would have had to magnify the image 300% and
> even then only part of the logo was legible. It was
> still rejected since I couldn't prove Tiffany was ok
> with it through a release. I removed it in photoshop
> instead.
>
> -Brendan
> --- "P. J. Alling" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>   
>> You should check the law before you make statements
>> like that.  Ford has 
>> no rights to assert here.  I hope that's not what
>> you do for a living, 
>> your clients are being ill served.
>>
>> Brendan MacRae wrote:
>> 
>>> Ford has every right to insist on rights of images
>>> using their products in materials that are to be
>>> distributed and sold.
>>>
>>> If they hadn't gone through Cafe Press, there may
>>>   
>> not
>> 
>>> have been any legal entanglement of if the members
>>> were to reproduce images for limited use among
>>> themselves. In either case, I doubt Ford would
>>>   
>> care
>> 
>>> one way or the other.
>>>
>>> -Brendan
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --- Sandy Harris <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>>
>>>   
>>>   
 A Mustang owners club wants to do a calendar
 
>> using
>> 
 photos of members' cars.
 Ford's lawyers object.


 
 
> http://www.adrants.com/2008/01/ford-slaps-brand-enthusiasts-returns.php
>   
>>>   
>>>   
 So does your next photo need a model release from
 every company
 whose products happen to be in it? This is
 
>> insanity!
>> 
 -- 
 Sandy Harris,
 Nanjing, China

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 directly above and follow the directions.

 
 
>>>
>>>  
>>>   
> 
>   
>>> Be a better friend, newshound, and 
>>> know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile.  Try it now. 
>>>   
> http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ
>   
>>>   
>>>   
>> -- 
>> I am personally a member of the Cream of the
>> Illuminati. 
>> A union with the Bavarian Illuminati is
>> contemplated. 
>> When it is complete the Bavarian Cream Illuminati
>> will rule the world
>>  -- Anonymous 
>>
>>
>> -- 
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>> 
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>
>
>   
> 
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