facebook post about being the community photographer

[Larry Colen]

This is somethingt that has been brewing in my mind for a while.  I didn't 
have time to do more than just spew it out, without editing.  And it
was a real challlenge trying to phrase it as "there are people out there
doing a lot more work than you realize", and not come across as "I do
all this stuff for you, what are you going to do for me?".  I hope 
I succeeded.  

If you are reading this, chances are that I've taken photos of you. I have 
nearly 1,600 people on my friends list, and I'm pretty sure it's not because of 
my sparkling personality. My social awkwardness is not legendary, but it is no 
secret. The reason that most people connect with me on social networking sites 
is because I'm one of the people that gets decent photos at those events where 
the cell phone photos always look like crap.  In just about any social group 
there are a few of us, generally three or four, that you see at the various 
events, taking photos.
Something like half of the photos ever taken, have been taken in the past year 
or two. To a first approximation, everybody now has a camera with them all the 
time.  You might call it a phone, but it's also a camera.  Meanwhile, the 
performance of dedicated cameras have improved at the exponential rate that 
Gordon Moore noticed several decades ago.  So, not only can just about anyone 
take a photo at any time, but there's a decent chance that photo will look OK, 
or at least the objects in it will probably be recognizable.  But in our 
various social groups, there are three or four of us who fairly regularly hear 
someone admit that their photos don't turn out as well as ours.  
There's a dirty secret that the people who make cameras won't tell you.  While 
cameras have advanced to the point that you no longer need to have a good grasp 
of photographic fundamentals to take a pictures that is reasonably well 
exposed, and even has subjects in focus, if you don't know your aperture from a 
hole in the ground, chances  are you won't take many good photos.  
Sure, you'll get lucky now and then. Throw enough darts in the general 
direction of the dart board and a few of them will hit the bullseye, but quite 
frankly, most of your photos will be crap, particularly in anything but 
favorable light.
What camera companies will tell you is that to get good photos, you need good 
(read expensive) cameras and lenses.  This is true to a point.  A good 
photographer can get beautiful artistic photos with just about any working 
camera that you put in their hands, but there are times when you simply need 
the right tool for the job.  If you want pictures of people dancing in a room 
that is too dark to comfortably read in, you are going to need a pretty good 
camera body, a decent lens, and in addition to knowing how to use them, you're 
going to need a decent computer for processing those photos.  You can get these 
things on the cheap, relatively speaking, but if you're passionate about 
photography chances are that you've spent well over a thousand dollars on your 
kit.  Actually, chances are that you've spent quite a few times that on your 
kit, but if you're creative, you might be able to take and process good photos 
in challenging light for under two or three thousand dollars.
So, those people getting better photos than you did so because they spent the 
time to learn the basics of photography, and they spent more time practicing, 
and they spent a fair chunk of money on decent camera and computer gear. I'm 
not even going to start on the time, expense and effort involved with film and 
darkroom, I've Been There, Done That, and while it has it's appeal, it is 
beyond the scope of this discussion, and possibly even sanity in this day and 
age.
These are arguably reasons enough to appreciate the people taking those photos 
of you dancing, riding bikes, playing guitar. racing cars or whatever.  But 
we've barely even started.
If we're taking photos at an event, there are things that we're not doing, and 
most of them are the reasons that we started going to those events at the first 
place. If it's at a dance, and I'm taking photos, there isn't a pretty girl in 
my arms moving to the music.  If I'm at a class and taking photos, I'm missing 
a lot of what the teacher is saying, because while the teacher is talking, I'm 
also looking at the light, thinking about when something interesting is going 
to happen, taking care not to disturb class myself and very little of my brain 
is left over to absorb what is being taught.
I'm not saying that taking photos isn't fun.  It is a lot of fun, or we 
wouldn't be doing it on our own time, and giving away the photos for free.  
There are a lot of reasons to give them away for free.  The big one is that 
most of us do this as a way to give back to the community and our friends. The 
other reason is that if we tried to sell our photos, we wouldn't get any money 
for them anyways, in no small part because we'd be competing against the people 
who are

Re: facebook post about being the community photographer

[Bob W]

Nobody's going to read that, whatever it's about. Several long blocks of text - 
why should anyone want to read it? 

Whatever it is you want to say, say it in less than 7 short sentences.

B

> On 7 Oct 2013, at 08:56, Larry Colen  wrote:
> 
> This is somethingt that has been brewing in my mind for a while.  I didn't 
> have time to do more than just spew it out, without editing.  And it
> was a real challlenge trying to phrase it as "there are people out there
> doing a lot more work than you realize", and not come across as "I do
> all this stuff for you, what are you going to do for me?".  I hope 
> I succeeded.  
> 
> If you are reading this, chances are that I've taken photos of you. I have 
> nearly 1,600 people on my friends list, and I'm pretty sure it's not because 
> of my sparkling personality. My social awkwardness is not legendary, but it 
> is no secret. The reason that most people connect with me on social 
> networking sites is because I'm one of the people that gets decent photos at 
> those events where the cell phone photos always look like crap.  In just 
> about any social group there are a few of us, generally three or four, that 
> you see at the various events, taking photos.
> Something like half of the photos ever taken, have been taken in the past 
> year or two. To a first approximation, everybody now has a camera with them 
> all the time.  You might call it a phone, but it's also a camera.  Meanwhile, 
> the performance of dedicated cameras have improved at the exponential rate 
> that Gordon Moore noticed several decades ago.  So, not only can just about 
> anyone take a photo at any time, but there's a decent chance that photo will 
> look OK, or at least the objects in it will probably be recognizable.  But in 
> our various social groups, there are three or four of us who fairly regularly 
> hear someone admit that their photos don't turn out as well as ours.  
> There's a dirty secret that the people who make cameras won't tell you.  
> While cameras have advanced to the point that you no longer need to have a 
> good grasp of photographic fundamentals to take a pictures that is reasonably 
> well exposed, and even has subjects in focus, if you don't know your aperture 
> from a hole in the ground, chances  are you won't take many good photos.  
> Sure, you'll get lucky now and then. Throw enough darts in the general 
> direction of the dart board and a few of them will hit the bullseye, but 
> quite frankly, most of your photos will be crap, particularly in anything but 
> favorable light.
> What camera companies will tell you is that to get good photos, you need good 
> (read expensive) cameras and lenses.  This is true to a point.  A good 
> photographer can get beautiful artistic photos with just about any working 
> camera that you put in their hands, but there are times when you simply need 
> the right tool for the job.  If you want pictures of people dancing in a room 
> that is too dark to comfortably read in, you are going to need a pretty good 
> camera body, a decent lens, and in addition to knowing how to use them, 
> you're going to need a decent computer for processing those photos.  You can 
> get these things on the cheap, relatively speaking, but if you're passionate 
> about photography chances are that you've spent well over a thousand dollars 
> on your kit.  Actually, chances are that you've spent quite a few times that 
> on your kit, but if you're creative, you might be able to take and process 
> good photos in challenging light for under two or three thousand dollars.
> So, those people getting better photos than you did so because they spent the 
> time to learn the basics of photography, and they spent more time practicing, 
> and they spent a fair chunk of money on decent camera and computer gear. I'm 
> not even going to start on the time, expense and effort involved with film 
> and darkroom, I've Been There, Done That, and while it has it's appeal, it is 
> beyond the scope of this discussion, and possibly even sanity in this day and 
> age.
> These are arguably reasons enough to appreciate the people taking those 
> photos of you dancing, riding bikes, playing guitar. racing cars or whatever. 
>  But we've barely even started.
> If we're taking photos at an event, there are things that we're not doing, 
> and most of them are the reasons that we started going to those events at the 
> first place. If it's at a dance, and I'm taking photos, there isn't a pretty 
> girl in my arms moving to the music.  If I'm at a class and taking photos, 
> I'm missing a lot of what the teacher is saying, because while the teacher is 
> talking, I'm also looking at the light, thinking about when something 
> interesting is going to happen, taking care not to disturb class myself and 
> very little of my brain is left over to absorb what is being taught.
> I'm not saying that taking photos isn't fun.  It is a lot of fun, or we 
> wouldn't be doing it on our

Re: facebook post about being the community photographer

[Attila Boros]

On Mon, Oct 7, 2013 at 11:06 AM, Bob W  wrote:

> Nobody's going to read that, whatever it's about. Several long blocks of text 
> - why should anyone want to read it?

Sorry Bob, I've already read it before your post showed up:) I guess
I'm used to reading long texts.

Since I'm not doing event photography I don't have much to add. Though
I'm puzzled by your experience.

--
Attila

-- 
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the directions.

Re: facebook post about being the community photographer

[Boris Liberman]

http://www.achangeinthewind.com/2010/09/war-and-peace-in-53-words-.html

It is approximately 7.5 words per sentence...

On Mon, Oct 7, 2013 at 11:06 AM, Bob W  wrote:
> Nobody's going to read that, whatever it's about. Several long blocks of text 
> - why should anyone want to read it?
>
> Whatever it is you want to say, say it in less than 7 short sentences.
>
> B
>
>> On 7 Oct 2013, at 08:56, Larry Colen  wrote:
>>
>> This is somethingt that has been brewing in my mind for a while.  I didn't
>> have time to do more than just spew it out, without editing.  And it
>> was a real challlenge trying to phrase it as "there are people out there
>> doing a lot more work than you realize", and not come across as "I do
>> all this stuff for you, what are you going to do for me?".  I hope
>> I succeeded.
>>
>> If you are reading this, chances are that I've taken photos of you. I have 
>> nearly 1,600 people on my friends list, and I'm pretty sure it's not because 
>> of my sparkling personality. My social awkwardness is not legendary, but it 
>> is no secret. The reason that most people connect with me on social 
>> networking sites is because I'm one of the people that gets decent photos at 
>> those events where the cell phone photos always look like crap.  In just 
>> about any social group there are a few of us, generally three or four, that 
>> you see at the various events, taking photos.
>> Something like half of the photos ever taken, have been taken in the past 
>> year or two. To a first approximation, everybody now has a camera with them 
>> all the time.  You might call it a phone, but it's also a camera.  
>> Meanwhile, the performance of dedicated cameras have improved at the 
>> exponential rate that Gordon Moore noticed several decades ago.  So, not 
>> only can just about anyone take a photo at any time, but there's a decent 
>> chance that photo will look OK, or at least the objects in it will probably 
>> be recognizable.  But in our various social groups, there are three or four 
>> of us who fairly regularly hear someone admit that their photos don't turn 
>> out as well as ours.
>> There's a dirty secret that the people who make cameras won't tell you.  
>> While cameras have advanced to the point that you no longer need to have a 
>> good grasp of photographic fundamentals to take a pictures that is 
>> reasonably well exposed, and even has subjects in focus, if you don't know 
>> your aperture from a hole in the ground, chances  are you won't take many 
>> good photos.
>> Sure, you'll get lucky now and then. Throw enough darts in the general 
>> direction of the dart board and a few of them will hit the bullseye, but 
>> quite frankly, most of your photos will be crap, particularly in anything 
>> but favorable light.
>> What camera companies will tell you is that to get good photos, you need 
>> good (read expensive) cameras and lenses.  This is true to a point.  A good 
>> photographer can get beautiful artistic photos with just about any working 
>> camera that you put in their hands, but there are times when you simply need 
>> the right tool for the job.  If you want pictures of people dancing in a 
>> room that is too dark to comfortably read in, you are going to need a pretty 
>> good camera body, a decent lens, and in addition to knowing how to use them, 
>> you're going to need a decent computer for processing those photos.  You can 
>> get these things on the cheap, relatively speaking, but if you're passionate 
>> about photography chances are that you've spent well over a thousand dollars 
>> on your kit.  Actually, chances are that you've spent quite a few times that 
>> on your kit, but if you're creative, you might be able to take and process 
>> good photos in challenging light for under two or three thousand dollars.
>> So, those people getting better photos than you did so because they spent 
>> the time to learn the basics of photography, and they spent more time 
>> practicing, and they spent a fair chunk of money on decent camera and 
>> computer gear. I'm not even going to start on the time, expense and effort 
>> involved with film and darkroom, I've Been There, Done That, and while it 
>> has it's appeal, it is beyond the scope of this discussion, and possibly 
>> even sanity in this day and age.
>> These are arguably reasons enough to appreciate the people taking those 
>> photos of you dancing, riding bikes, playing guitar. racing cars or 
>> whatever.  But we've barely even started.
>> If we're taking photos at an event, there are things that we're not doing, 
>> and most of them are the reasons that we started going to those events at 
>> the first place. If it's at a dance, and I'm taking photos, there isn't a 
>> pretty girl in my arms moving to the music.  If I'm at a class and taking 
>> photos, I'm missing a lot of what the teacher is saying, because while the 
>> teacher is talking, I'm also looking at the light, thinking about when 
>> something interesting 

Re: facebook post about being the community photographer

[DagT]

I think I will refer to this the next time someone ask me why I don't take 
pictures at some event :-)

DagT

Sendt fra min iPad

> Den 7. okt. 2013 kl. 09:56 skrev Larry Colen :
> 
> This is somethingt that has been brewing in my mind for a while.  I didn't 
> have time to do more than just spew it out, without editing.  And it
> was a real challlenge trying to phrase it as "there are people out there
> doing a lot more work than you realize", and not come across as "I do
> all this stuff for you, what are you going to do for me?".  I hope 
> I succeeded.  
> 
> If you are reading this, chances are that I've taken photos of you. I have 
> nearly 1,600 people on my friends list, and I'm pretty sure it's not because 
> of my sparkling personality. My social awkwardness is not legendary, but it 
> is no secret. The reason that most people connect with me on social 
> networking sites is because I'm one of the people that gets decent photos at 
> those events where the cell phone photos always look like crap.  In just 
> about any social group there are a few of us, generally three or four, that 
> you see at the various events, taking photos.
> Something like half of the photos ever taken, have been taken in the past 
> year or two. To a first approximation, everybody now has a camera with them 
> all the time.  You might call it a phone, but it's also a camera.  Meanwhile, 
> the performance of dedicated cameras have improved at the exponential rate 
> that Gordon Moore noticed several decades ago.  So, not only can just about 
> anyone take a photo at any time, but there's a decent chance that photo will 
> look OK, or at least the objects in it will probably be recognizable.  But in 
> our various social groups, there are three or four of us who fairly regularly 
> hear someone admit that their photos don't turn out as well as ours.  
> There's a dirty secret that the people who make cameras won't tell you.  
> While cameras have advanced to the point that you no longer need to have a 
> good grasp of photographic fundamentals to take a pictures that is reasonably 
> well exposed, and even has subjects in focus, if you don't know your aperture 
> from a hole in the ground, chances  are you won't take many good photos.  
> Sure, you'll get lucky now and then. Throw enough darts in the general 
> direction of the dart board and a few of them will hit the bullseye, but 
> quite frankly, most of your photos will be crap, particularly in anything but 
> favorable light.
> What camera companies will tell you is that to get good photos, you need good 
> (read expensive) cameras and lenses.  This is true to a point.  A good 
> photographer can get beautiful artistic photos with just about any working 
> camera that you put in their hands, but there are times when you simply need 
> the right tool for the job.  If you want pictures of people dancing in a room 
> that is too dark to comfortably read in, you are going to need a pretty good 
> camera body, a decent lens, and in addition to knowing how to use them, 
> you're going to need a decent computer for processing those photos.  You can 
> get these things on the cheap, relatively speaking, but if you're passionate 
> about photography chances are that you've spent well over a thousand dollars 
> on your kit.  Actually, chances are that you've spent quite a few times that 
> on your kit, but if you're creative, you might be able to take and process 
> good photos in challenging light for under two or three thousand dollars.
> So, those people getting better photos than you did so because they spent the 
> time to learn the basics of photography, and they spent more time practicing, 
> and they spent a fair chunk of money on decent camera and computer gear. I'm 
> not even going to start on the time, expense and effort involved with film 
> and darkroom, I've Been There, Done That, and while it has it's appeal, it is 
> beyond the scope of this discussion, and possibly even sanity in this day and 
> age.
> These are arguably reasons enough to appreciate the people taking those 
> photos of you dancing, riding bikes, playing guitar. racing cars or whatever. 
>  But we've barely even started.
> If we're taking photos at an event, there are things that we're not doing, 
> and most of them are the reasons that we started going to those events at the 
> first place. If it's at a dance, and I'm taking photos, there isn't a pretty 
> girl in my arms moving to the music.  If I'm at a class and taking photos, 
> I'm missing a lot of what the teacher is saying, because while the teacher is 
> talking, I'm also looking at the light, thinking about when something 
> interesting is going to happen, taking care not to disturb class myself and 
> very little of my brain is left over to absorb what is being taught.
> I'm not saying that taking photos isn't fun.  It is a lot of fun, or we 
> wouldn't be doing it on our own time, and giving away the photos for free.  
> There are

Re: facebook post about being the community photographer

[Bruce Walker]

tl;dr

It's missing an intro. There's no clear reason why it would be
fruitful to climb that mountain of text. I got three paras in and gave
up.

Simply leaving a blank line between para's would also help, a bit.

Tell 'em what your're going to say.
Say it.
Summarize what you said.


On Mon, Oct 7, 2013 at 4:06 AM, Bob W  wrote:
> Nobody's going to read that, whatever it's about. Several long blocks of text 
> - why should anyone want to read it?
>
> Whatever it is you want to say, say it in less than 7 short sentences.
>
> B
>
>> On 7 Oct 2013, at 08:56, Larry Colen  wrote:
>>
>> This is somethingt that has been brewing in my mind for a while.  I didn't
>> have time to do more than just spew it out, without editing.  And it
>> was a real challlenge trying to phrase it as "there are people out there
>> doing a lot more work than you realize", and not come across as "I do
>> all this stuff for you, what are you going to do for me?".  I hope
>> I succeeded.
>>
>> If you are reading this, chances are that I've taken photos of you. I have 
>> nearly 1,600 people on my friends list, and I'm pretty sure it's not because 
>> of my sparkling personality. My social awkwardness is not legendary, but it 
>> is no secret. The reason that most people connect with me on social 
>> networking sites is because I'm one of the people that gets decent photos at 
>> those events where the cell phone photos always look like crap.  In just 
>> about any social group there are a few of us, generally three or four, that 
>> you see at the various events, taking photos.
>> Something like half of the photos ever taken, have been taken in the past 
>> year or two. To a first approximation, everybody now has a camera with them 
>> all the time.  You might call it a phone, but it's also a camera.  
>> Meanwhile, the performance of dedicated cameras have improved at the 
>> exponential rate that Gordon Moore noticed several decades ago.  So, not 
>> only can just about anyone take a photo at any time, but there's a decent 
>> chance that photo will look OK, or at least the objects in it will probably 
>> be recognizable.  But in our various social groups, there are three or four 
>> of us who fairly regularly hear someone admit that their photos don't turn 
>> out as well as ours.
>> There's a dirty secret that the people who make cameras won't tell you.  
>> While cameras have advanced to the point that you no longer need to have a 
>> good grasp of photographic fundamentals to take a pictures that is 
>> reasonably well exposed, and even has subjects in focus, if you don't know 
>> your aperture from a hole in the ground, chances  are you won't take many 
>> good photos.
>> Sure, you'll get lucky now and then. Throw enough darts in the general 
>> direction of the dart board and a few of them will hit the bullseye, but 
>> quite frankly, most of your photos will be crap, particularly in anything 
>> but favorable light.
>> What camera companies will tell you is that to get good photos, you need 
>> good (read expensive) cameras and lenses.  This is true to a point.  A good 
>> photographer can get beautiful artistic photos with just about any working 
>> camera that you put in their hands, but there are times when you simply need 
>> the right tool for the job.  If you want pictures of people dancing in a 
>> room that is too dark to comfortably read in, you are going to need a pretty 
>> good camera body, a decent lens, and in addition to knowing how to use them, 
>> you're going to need a decent computer for processing those photos.  You can 
>> get these things on the cheap, relatively speaking, but if you're passionate 
>> about photography chances are that you've spent well over a thousand dollars 
>> on your kit.  Actually, chances are that you've spent quite a few times that 
>> on your kit, but if you're creative, you might be able to take and process 
>> good photos in challenging light for under two or three thousand dollars.
>> So, those people getting better photos than you did so because they spent 
>> the time to learn the basics of photography, and they spent more time 
>> practicing, and they spent a fair chunk of money on decent camera and 
>> computer gear. I'm not even going to start on the time, expense and effort 
>> involved with film and darkroom, I've Been There, Done That, and while it 
>> has it's appeal, it is beyond the scope of this discussion, and possibly 
>> even sanity in this day and age.
>> These are arguably reasons enough to appreciate the people taking those 
>> photos of you dancing, riding bikes, playing guitar. racing cars or 
>> whatever.  But we've barely even started.
>> If we're taking photos at an event, there are things that we're not doing, 
>> and most of them are the reasons that we started going to those events at 
>> the first place. If it's at a dance, and I'm taking photos, there isn't a 
>> pretty girl in my arms moving to the music.  If I'm at a class and taking 
>> photos, I'm 

Re: facebook post about being the community photographer

[Boris Liberman]

Bruce, I believe Larry copied-and-pasted a post from his Facebook.
Therein I suppose lies the rest of the context. I should be able to
read his message properly when I am on my way home in the train today.

On Mon, Oct 7, 2013 at 12:25 PM, Bruce Walker  wrote:
> tl;dr
>
> It's missing an intro. There's no clear reason why it would be
> fruitful to climb that mountain of text. I got three paras in and gave
> up.
>
> Simply leaving a blank line between para's would also help, a bit.
>
> Tell 'em what your're going to say.
> Say it.
> Summarize what you said.
>
>
> On Mon, Oct 7, 2013 at 4:06 AM, Bob W  wrote:
>> Nobody's going to read that, whatever it's about. Several long blocks of 
>> text - why should anyone want to read it?
>>
>> Whatever it is you want to say, say it in less than 7 short sentences.
>>
>> B
>>
>>> On 7 Oct 2013, at 08:56, Larry Colen  wrote:
>>>
>>> This is somethingt that has been brewing in my mind for a while.  I didn't
>>> have time to do more than just spew it out, without editing.  And it
>>> was a real challlenge trying to phrase it as "there are people out there
>>> doing a lot more work than you realize", and not come across as "I do
>>> all this stuff for you, what are you going to do for me?".  I hope
>>> I succeeded.
>>>
>>> If you are reading this, chances are that I've taken photos of you. I have 
>>> nearly 1,600 people on my friends list, and I'm pretty sure it's not 
>>> because of my sparkling personality. My social awkwardness is not 
>>> legendary, but it is no secret. The reason that most people connect with me 
>>> on social networking sites is because I'm one of the people that gets 
>>> decent photos at those events where the cell phone photos always look like 
>>> crap.  In just about any social group there are a few of us, generally 
>>> three or four, that you see at the various events, taking photos.
>>> Something like half of the photos ever taken, have been taken in the past 
>>> year or two. To a first approximation, everybody now has a camera with them 
>>> all the time.  You might call it a phone, but it's also a camera.  
>>> Meanwhile, the performance of dedicated cameras have improved at the 
>>> exponential rate that Gordon Moore noticed several decades ago.  So, not 
>>> only can just about anyone take a photo at any time, but there's a decent 
>>> chance that photo will look OK, or at least the objects in it will probably 
>>> be recognizable.  But in our various social groups, there are three or four 
>>> of us who fairly regularly hear someone admit that their photos don't turn 
>>> out as well as ours.
>>> There's a dirty secret that the people who make cameras won't tell you.  
>>> While cameras have advanced to the point that you no longer need to have a 
>>> good grasp of photographic fundamentals to take a pictures that is 
>>> reasonably well exposed, and even has subjects in focus, if you don't know 
>>> your aperture from a hole in the ground, chances  are you won't take many 
>>> good photos.
>>> Sure, you'll get lucky now and then. Throw enough darts in the general 
>>> direction of the dart board and a few of them will hit the bullseye, but 
>>> quite frankly, most of your photos will be crap, particularly in anything 
>>> but favorable light.
>>> What camera companies will tell you is that to get good photos, you need 
>>> good (read expensive) cameras and lenses.  This is true to a point.  A good 
>>> photographer can get beautiful artistic photos with just about any working 
>>> camera that you put in their hands, but there are times when you simply 
>>> need the right tool for the job.  If you want pictures of people dancing in 
>>> a room that is too dark to comfortably read in, you are going to need a 
>>> pretty good camera body, a decent lens, and in addition to knowing how to 
>>> use them, you're going to need a decent computer for processing those 
>>> photos.  You can get these things on the cheap, relatively speaking, but if 
>>> you're passionate about photography chances are that you've spent well over 
>>> a thousand dollars on your kit.  Actually, chances are that you've spent 
>>> quite a few times that on your kit, but if you're creative, you might be 
>>> able to take and process good photos in challenging light for under two or 
>>> three thousand dollars.
>>> So, those people getting better photos than you did so because they spent 
>>> the time to learn the basics of photography, and they spent more time 
>>> practicing, and they spent a fair chunk of money on decent camera and 
>>> computer gear. I'm not even going to start on the time, expense and effort 
>>> involved with film and darkroom, I've Been There, Done That, and while it 
>>> has it's appeal, it is beyond the scope of this discussion, and possibly 
>>> even sanity in this day and age.
>>> These are arguably reasons enough to appreciate the people taking those 
>>> photos of you dancing, riding bikes, playing guitar. racing cars or 
>>> whatever.  But

Re: facebook post about being the community photographer

[Eactivist]

Actually, Bob, you'd be surprised how many  people on FB WILL read it. For 
one thing, it will be formatted, not a plain text  dump as it is here.

People do occasionally post longer posts on Facebook.  But it is totally a 
if-they-are-in-the-mood thing, whether one's "friends" will  read it or not.

Read the whole thing, Larry, and I do think you are  trying to communicate 
too many different ideas in one post. I mean, Rockwell  country is already 
taken. ;-)

But you make it sound like camera companies  are out to deliberately 
exploit people. Or exploit them into thinking everyone  can take good photos. I 
would disagree with that. Anyone who buys a DSLR will  find out they need to 
know more, if they don't already know about f-stops and  the like.

NOW cell phone companies MAY want to imply to everyone that  they can take 
good shots with no experience, practice, and knowledge. I don't  know.

One of my FB friends, non-PDML-type, has taken fantastic photos  with his 
cell phone and is currently putting together a blurb book of them. He  raised 
funds on Kickstarter and got a lot of donations. But I don't know his  
photographic background, he may have been taking photos for  years.

Marnie

In a message dated 10/7/2013 1:06:44 A.M. Pacific  Daylight Time, 
p...@web-options.com writes:
Nobody's going to read that,  whatever it's about. Several long blocks of 
text - why should anyone want to  read it? 

Whatever it is you want to say, say it in less than 7 short  sentences.

B

> On 7 Oct 2013, at 08:56, Larry Colen   wrote:
> 
> This is somethingt that has been  brewing in my mind for a while.  I 
didn't 
> have time to do more  than just spew it out, without editing.  And it
> was a real  challlenge trying to phrase it as "there are people out there
> doing a  lot more work than you realize", and not come across as "I do
> all this  stuff for you, what are you going to do for me?".  I hope 
> I  succeeded.  
> 
> If you are reading this, chances are that  I've taken photos of you. I 
have nearly 1,600 people on my friends list, and I'm  pretty sure it's not 
because of my sparkling personality. My social awkwardness  is not legendary, 
but it is no secret. The reason that most people connect with  me on social 
networking sites is because I'm one of the people that gets decent  photos at 
those events where the cell phone photos always look like crap.   In just 
about any social group there are a few of us, generally three or four,  that 
you see at the various events, taking photos.
> Something like half  of the photos ever taken, have been taken in the 
past year or two. To a first  approximation, everybody now has a camera with 
them all the time.  You  might call it a phone, but it's also a camera.  
Meanwhile, the performance  of dedicated cameras have improved at the 
exponential 
rate that Gordon Moore  noticed several decades ago.  So, not only can just 
about anyone take a  photo at any time, but there's a decent chance that 
photo will look OK, or at  least the objects in it will probably be 
recognizable.  But in our various  social groups, there are three or four of us 
who 
fairly regularly hear someone  admit that their photos don't turn out as well 
as ours.  
> There's a  dirty secret that the people who make cameras won't tell you.  
While  cameras have advanced to the point that you no longer need to have a 
good grasp  of photographic fundamentals to take a pictures that is 
reasonably well exposed,  and even has subjects in focus, if you don't know 
your 
aperture from a hole in  the ground, chances  are you won't take many good 
photos.  
>  Sure, you'll get lucky now and then. Throw enough darts in the general 
direction  of the dart board and a few of them will hit the bullseye, but 
quite frankly,  most of your photos will be crap, particularly in anything but 
favorable  light.
> What camera companies will tell you is that to get good photos,  you need 
good (read expensive) cameras and lenses.  This is true to a  point.  A 
good photographer can get beautiful artistic photos with just  about any 
working camera that you put in their hands, but there are times when  you 
simply 
need the right tool for the job.  If you want pictures of people  dancing in 
a room that is too dark to comfortably read in, you are going to need  a 
pretty good camera body, a decent lens, and in addition to knowing how to use  
them, you're going to need a decent computer for processing those photos.   
You can get these things on the cheap, relatively speaking, but if you're  
passionate about photography chances are that you've spent well over a 
thousand  dollars on your kit.  Actually, chances are that you've spent quite a 
few  times that on your kit, but if you're creative, you might be able to take 
and  process good photos in challenging light for under two or three 
thousand  dollars.
> So, those people getting better photos than you did so because  they 
spent the time to learn the basics

Re: facebook post about being the community photographer

[Bob W]

The inverted pyramid is the writer's friend as far as this sort of thing is 
concerned.



> On 7 Oct 2013, at 10:25, Bruce Walker  wrote:
> 
> tl;dr
> 
> It's missing an intro. There's no clear reason why it would be
> fruitful to climb that mountain of text. I got three paras in and gave
> up.
> 
> Simply leaving a blank line between para's would also help, a bit.
> 
> Tell 'em what your're going to say.
> Say it.
> Summarize what you said.

Or indeed:

Tell 'em what you're gonna tell 'em
Tell 'em
Tell 'em what you just told 'em

(Which is not the same as the inverted pyramid)

> 
> 
>> On Mon, Oct 7, 2013 at 4:06 AM, Bob W  wrote:
>> Nobody's going to read that, whatever it's about. Several long blocks of 
>> text - why should anyone want to read it?
>> 
>> Whatever it is you want to say, say it in less than 7 short sentences.
>> 
>> B
>> 
>>> On 7 Oct 2013, at 08:56, Larry Colen  wrote:

Stuff
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Re: facebook post about being the community photographer

[Bruce Walker]

Bob, here's a counter technique that would've worked, if used:

"So when you start with that agenda slide (tell ‘em what you’re going
to say) their attentions immediately wander, they pick up their
phones, and you’ve lost ‘em.

Instead, launch right in with a framing story or an idea that will
grab their attention and at the same time tell them why they’re there.
 That’s what audiences want to have answered right away – not what
you’re going to say, but _why they’re there_."

http://www.forbes.com/sites/nickmorgan/2012/04/02/giving-a-presentation-dont-tell-em-what-youre-going-to-say/


On Mon, Oct 7, 2013 at 2:42 PM, Bob W  wrote:
> The inverted pyramid is the writer's friend as far as this sort of thing is 
> concerned.
>
> 
>
>> On 7 Oct 2013, at 10:25, Bruce Walker  wrote:
>>
>> tl;dr
>>
>> It's missing an intro. There's no clear reason why it would be
>> fruitful to climb that mountain of text. I got three paras in and gave
>> up.
>>
>> Simply leaving a blank line between para's would also help, a bit.
>>
>> Tell 'em what your're going to say.
>> Say it.
>> Summarize what you said.
>
> Or indeed:
>
> Tell 'em what you're gonna tell 'em
> Tell 'em
> Tell 'em what you just told 'em
>
> (Which is not the same as the inverted pyramid)
>
>>
>>
>>> On Mon, Oct 7, 2013 at 4:06 AM, Bob W  wrote:
>>> Nobody's going to read that, whatever it's about. Several long blocks of 
>>> text - why should anyone want to read it?
>>>
>>> Whatever it is you want to say, say it in less than 7 short sentences.
>>>
>>> B
>>>
 On 7 Oct 2013, at 08:56, Larry Colen  wrote:
>
> Stuff
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Re: facebook post about being the community photographer

[Bob W]

Indeed.  The point is - anything but the Larrathon...

Sorry, Larry!

B

> On 7 Oct 2013, at 20:09, Bruce Walker  wrote:
> 
> Bob, here's a counter technique that would've worked, if used:
> 
> "So when you start with that agenda slide (tell ‘em what you’re going
> to say) their attentions immediately wander, they pick up their
> phones, and you’ve lost ‘em.
> 
> Instead, launch right in with a framing story or an idea that will
> grab their attention and at the same time tell them why they’re there.
> That’s what audiences want to have answered right away – not what
> you’re going to say, but _why they’re there_."
> 
> http://www.forbes.com/sites/nickmorgan/2012/04/02/giving-a-presentation-dont-tell-em-what-youre-going-to-say/
> 
> 
>> On Mon, Oct 7, 2013 at 2:42 PM, Bob W  wrote:
>> The inverted pyramid is the writer's friend as far as this sort of thing is 
>> concerned.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>> On 7 Oct 2013, at 10:25, Bruce Walker  wrote:
>>> 
>>> tl;dr
>>> 
>>> It's missing an intro. There's no clear reason why it would be
>>> fruitful to climb that mountain of text. I got three paras in and gave
>>> up.
>>> 
>>> Simply leaving a blank line between para's would also help, a bit.
>>> 
>>> Tell 'em what your're going to say.
>>> Say it.
>>> Summarize what you said.
>> 
>> Or indeed:
>> 
>> Tell 'em what you're gonna tell 'em
>> Tell 'em
>> Tell 'em what you just told 'em
>> 
>> (Which is not the same as the inverted pyramid)
>> 
>>> 
>>> 
 On Mon, Oct 7, 2013 at 4:06 AM, Bob W  wrote:
 Nobody's going to read that, whatever it's about. Several long blocks of 
 text - why should anyone want to read it?
 
 Whatever it is you want to say, say it in less than 7 short sentences.
 
 B
 
> On 7 Oct 2013, at 08:56, Larry Colen  wrote:
>> 
>> Stuff
>> --
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>> follow the directions.
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
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> 
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Re: facebook post about being the community photographer

[Attila Boros]

On Mon, Oct 7, 2013 at 10:09 PM, Bruce Walker  wrote:

> Instead, launch right in with a framing story or an idea that will
> grab their attention

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/In_medias_res

I've been using this a lot in high school without the "tell them why
they’re there" part (in writing, I weren't giving presentations). I
thought I'm being original until my teacher told me it's the oldest
trick in the book:)

--
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Re: facebook post about being the community photographer

[Larry Colen]

On Mon, Oct 07, 2013 at 08:19:11PM +0100, Bob W wrote:
> Indeed.  The point is - anything but the Larrathon...
> 
> Sorry, Larry!

Like I said, I started it way too late at night, I thought it was 
going to be a couple of paragraphs.  I posted it on facebook to 
start a conversation about appreciating the work that goes into
being the unofficial community photographer.  

It was a lot longer than I intended, but I needed to go to bed, 
so I just posted what I had. I thought that some people on this
list might be interested in the subject and discussion, because
they ended up being the parent that gets the shots everyone uses
of the kids soccer games, or school plays, or like me, in the dance
community.  

As was observed, I just copied it from facebook and pasted it into 
my text editor mail client. 


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Re: facebook post about being the community photographer

[Bill]

On 07/10/2013 1:29 PM, Larry Colen wrote:

On Mon, Oct 07, 2013 at 08:19:11PM +0100, Bob W wrote:

Indeed.  The point is - anything but the Larrathon...

Sorry, Larry!

Like I said, I started it way too late at night, I thought it was
going to be a couple of paragraphs.  I posted it on facebook to
start a conversation about appreciating the work that goes into
being the unofficial community photographer.
Generally, you will find that the Reader's Digest version is the way to 
go. If you can't do that, you need to be funny.


bill

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Re: facebook post about being the community photographer

[Christine Nielsen]

So... as a parent who does shoot a fair amount of photos of kids at
games,  recitals, etc., I think I understand what you are driving at.
I do not want to be in the position of feeling taken advantage of, or
taken for granted as the "community photographer."  Especially since,
I am a photographer in my community, and I would like people in my
community to occasionally pay me for taking photographs.  Here is how
I approach photo-taking & sharing at these kind of events:

- Unless asked (paid) to shoot an event, I attend, and shoot, as a
parent. I'm taking photos of my kid, and his/her friends.  I shoot for
the enjoyment, the family album, and the practice.  Once or twice a
season, I will try to get photos of everyone at the track meet, for
example... just as a courtesy, or contribution, to the
team/organization that my child is part of... I share a link to the
photos on my website, in web-size, often with my watermark.  Kids &
families can share, link, download, post to facebook, whatever. They
can order prints, too... which rarely happens, btw.

-That should tell you something right there.  Even well-executed
photos of kids  (or dancers) doing their thing, aren't really selling
like hotcakes.  (Unless you are a pro, hired to shoot the
competition/performance, and you are hard-selling parents on prints
before they leave the event. I'm not interested in that.)  So, I don't
spend a ton of time making these photos for others.

-Often at these events, there is someone (a parent), who is in charge
of getting photos of the team doing their thing... that's fine. (see
above, why nobody buys photos)   I try very hard not to be that
parent.  They are there at every event, shooting away, and then
usually dump their images onto the team website.  Those images are
different than mine... they are fine snapshots, but not what you or I
would want to show as representative of our work.  (If I can say so
without being arrogant) I like to think that how I share & present my
images communicates that I value them differently.

-For friends... actual friends... I will share digital files for
printing, or send them prints.

So... my advice to you (it's worth what it costs) is shoot as much as
you like at dance events.  Process & post as much as you want, as much
as you feel it is worth.But no more than that.

:)
-c

On Mon, Oct 7, 2013 at 3:29 PM, Larry Colen  wrote:
> On Mon, Oct 07, 2013 at 08:19:11PM +0100, Bob W wrote:
>> Indeed.  The point is - anything but the Larrathon...
>>
>> Sorry, Larry!
>
> Like I said, I started it way too late at night, I thought it was
> going to be a couple of paragraphs.  I posted it on facebook to
> start a conversation about appreciating the work that goes into
> being the unofficial community photographer.
>
> It was a lot longer than I intended, but I needed to go to bed,
> so I just posted what I had. I thought that some people on this
> list might be interested in the subject and discussion, because
> they ended up being the parent that gets the shots everyone uses
> of the kids soccer games, or school plays, or like me, in the dance
> community.
>
> As was observed, I just copied it from facebook and pasted it into
> my text editor mail client.
>
>
> --
> Larry Colen  l...@red4est.com http://red4est.com/lrc
>
>
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Re: facebook post about being the community photographer

[Eric Weir]

On Oct 7, 2013, at 3:29 PM, Larry Colen  wrote:

> Like I said, I started it way too late at night, I thought it was 
> going to be a couple of paragraphs.  I posted it on facebook to 
> start a conversation about appreciating the work that goes into
> being the unofficial community photographer. 

I agree: Less is more. For real. Especially on Facebook. [If you're into 
Facebook.]

--
Eric Weir
Decatur, GA  USA
eew...@bellsouth.net

"Our world is a human world." 

- Hilary Putnam





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Re: facebook post about being the community photographer

[Eactivist]

Like!

M aka D ;-)

In a message dated 10/7/2013 3:27:22 P.M.  Pacific Daylight Time, 
eew...@bellsouth.net writes:

I agree: Less is more. For real. Especially on Facebook. [If you're  into 
Facebook.]
 

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Re: facebook post about being the community photographer

[Boris Liberman]

On 10/7/2013 10:56 AM, Larry Colen wrote:

And, if you actually run events, and appreciate having good photos of
the event so people can see how much fun it is, think about ways to
make the people who put the effort in to take those photos feel
appreciated.


I reckon if I had FB acct, I would have +1'd or Like'd this post of 
yours, Larry.


Namely, I should put my act together and push myself into Anat's 
pre-school class. The people who proclaimed themselves to do the 
community service and take pictures sent some. Boy, was it a 
disappointment...


Boris



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Re: facebook post about being the community photographer

[Larry Colen]

On Tue, Oct 08, 2013 at 07:09:53AM +0300, Boris Liberman wrote:
> On 10/7/2013 10:56 AM, Larry Colen wrote:
> >And, if you actually run events, and appreciate having good photos of
> >the event so people can see how much fun it is, think about ways to
> >make the people who put the effort in to take those photos feel
> >appreciated.
> 
> I reckon if I had FB acct, I would have +1'd or Like'd this post of
> yours, Larry.

Thanks Boris.  There's a lot to the subject, on both sides of 
the camera.  It's a tough subject to write about without sounding
like "I showed up and did something without being asked, and now
you owe me".  On the other hand, there are a lot of people who put
in a lot of "invisible effort" and it can be good to make that 
effort visible to others.

> 
> Namely, I should put my act together and push myself into Anat's
> pre-school class. The people who proclaimed themselves to do the
> community service and take pictures sent some. Boy, was it a
> disappointment...

Or, you could offer to teach a "photography for parents" class.
Bring Galia along and show them that taking good pictures is so
easy a child could do it. So long as the child was willing to put
in a little bit of effort to learn how to do it well.

> 
> Boris
> 
> 
> 
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Re: facebook post about being the community photographer

[P.J. Alling]

Do journalists actually use the inverted pyramid these days?  I don't 
even thing most know what a pyramid is.


On 10/7/2013 2:42 PM, Bob W wrote:

The inverted pyramid is the writer's friend as far as this sort of thing is 
concerned.




On 7 Oct 2013, at 10:25, Bruce Walker  wrote:

tl;dr

It's missing an intro. There's no clear reason why it would be
fruitful to climb that mountain of text. I got three paras in and gave
up.

Simply leaving a blank line between para's would also help, a bit.

Tell 'em what your're going to say.
Say it.
Summarize what you said.

Or indeed:

Tell 'em what you're gonna tell 'em
Tell 'em
Tell 'em what you just told 'em

(Which is not the same as the inverted pyramid)




On Mon, Oct 7, 2013 at 4:06 AM, Bob W  wrote:
Nobody's going to read that, whatever it's about. Several long blocks of text - 
why should anyone want to read it?

Whatever it is you want to say, say it in less than 7 short sentences.

B


On 7 Oct 2013, at 08:56, Larry Colen  wrote:

Stuff



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crazier.

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Re: facebook post about being the community photographer

[Larry Colen]

On Tue, Oct 08, 2013 at 12:05:05PM -0400, P.J. Alling wrote:
> Do journalists actually use the inverted pyramid these days?  I
> don't even thing most know what a pyramid is.

I don't think most people know what a journalist is.


> 
> On 10/7/2013 2:42 PM, Bob W wrote:
> >The inverted pyramid is the writer's friend as far as this sort of thing is 
> >concerned.
> >
> >
> >
> >>On 7 Oct 2013, at 10:25, Bruce Walker  wrote:
> >>
> >>tl;dr
> >>
> >>It's missing an intro. There's no clear reason why it would be
> >>fruitful to climb that mountain of text. I got three paras in and gave
> >>up.
> >>
> >>Simply leaving a blank line between para's would also help, a bit.
> >>
> >>Tell 'em what your're going to say.
> >>Say it.
> >>Summarize what you said.
> >Or indeed:
> >
> >Tell 'em what you're gonna tell 'em
> >Tell 'em
> >Tell 'em what you just told 'em
> >
> >(Which is not the same as the inverted pyramid)
> >
> >>
> >>>On Mon, Oct 7, 2013 at 4:06 AM, Bob W  wrote:
> >>>Nobody's going to read that, whatever it's about. Several long blocks of 
> >>>text - why should anyone want to read it?
> >>>
> >>>Whatever it is you want to say, say it in less than 7 short sentences.
> >>>
> >>>B
> >>>
> On 7 Oct 2013, at 08:56, Larry Colen  wrote:
> >Stuff
> 
> 
> -- 
> A newspaper is a device for making the ignorant more ignorant, and the crazy, 
> crazier.
> 
>  - H.L.Mencken
> 
> 
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Re: facebook post about being the community photographer

[Walt]

FWIW, I read through the entire thing without a problem. Though, 
admittedly, I am a pretty wordy writer.


Still, it just doesn't strike me as all that out-of-place to muse at 
some length on-topic in the context of a discussion list, or even on 
Facebook for that matter, since they truncate comments and provide a 
link to the full content for anyone who cares to read the whole thing.


I think the tendency among many readers toward a "tl;dr" or "OMG, it's 
full of words!" reaction to internet commentary that goes on for more 
than 250 words is lamentable in a lot of ways. And if we can't go on and 
on about things we have a passion for, it seems to me we're robbing 
ourselves of some of the joy in having passions at all.


-- Walt


On 10/8/2013 12:34 PM, Larry Colen wrote:

On Tue, Oct 08, 2013 at 12:05:05PM -0400, P.J. Alling wrote:

Do journalists actually use the inverted pyramid these days?  I
don't even thing most know what a pyramid is.

I don't think most people know what a journalist is.



On 10/7/2013 2:42 PM, Bob W wrote:

The inverted pyramid is the writer's friend as far as this sort of thing is 
concerned.




On 7 Oct 2013, at 10:25, Bruce Walker  wrote:

tl;dr

It's missing an intro. There's no clear reason why it would be
fruitful to climb that mountain of text. I got three paras in and gave
up.

Simply leaving a blank line between para's would also help, a bit.

Tell 'em what your're going to say.
Say it.
Summarize what you said.

Or indeed:

Tell 'em what you're gonna tell 'em
Tell 'em
Tell 'em what you just told 'em

(Which is not the same as the inverted pyramid)


On Mon, Oct 7, 2013 at 4:06 AM, Bob W  wrote:
Nobody's going to read that, whatever it's about. Several long blocks of text - 
why should anyone want to read it?

Whatever it is you want to say, say it in less than 7 short sentences.

B


On 7 Oct 2013, at 08:56, Larry Colen  wrote:

Stuff


--
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crazier.

  - H.L.Mencken


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Re: facebook post about being the community photographer

[Bob W]

On 8 Oct 2013, at 19:04, Walt  wrote:
> 
> FWIW, I read through the entire thing without a problem. Though, admittedly, 
> I am a pretty wordy writer.
> 
> Still, it just doesn't strike me as all that out-of-place to muse at some 
> length on-topic in the context of a discussion list, or even on Facebook for 
> that matter, since they truncate comments and provide a link to the full 
> content for anyone who cares to read the whole thing.
> 
> I think the tendency among many readers toward a "tl;dr" or "OMG, it's full 
> of words!" reaction to internet commentary that goes on for more than 250 
> words is lamentable in a lot of ways. And if we can't go on and on about 
> things we have a passion for, it seems to me we're robbing ourselves of some 
> of the joy in having passions at all.

Everybody's entitled to go on and on about anything they want. 

But if you want people to read it, make it easy for them. There are many tried 
and tested ways of doing that. Unless you're Joyce or Kerouac (and even 
then...) a colossal brain dump is rarely one of them.

B



> 
> -- Walt
> 
> 
>> On 10/8/2013 12:34 PM, Larry Colen wrote:
>>> On Tue, Oct 08, 2013 at 12:05:05PM -0400, P.J. Alling wrote:
>>> Do journalists actually use the inverted pyramid these days?  I
>>> don't even thing most know what a pyramid is.
>> I don't think most people know what a journalist is.
>> 
>> 
 On 10/7/2013 2:42 PM, Bob W wrote:
 The inverted pyramid is the writer's friend as far as this sort of thing 
 is concerned.
 
 
 
> On 7 Oct 2013, at 10:25, Bruce Walker  wrote:
> 
> tl;dr
> 
> It's missing an intro. There's no clear reason why it would be
> fruitful to climb that mountain of text. I got three paras in and gave
> up.
> 
> Simply leaving a blank line between para's would also help, a bit.
> 
> Tell 'em what your're going to say.
> Say it.
> Summarize what you said.
 Or indeed:
 
 Tell 'em what you're gonna tell 'em
 Tell 'em
 Tell 'em what you just told 'em
 
 (Which is not the same as the inverted pyramid)
 
>> On Mon, Oct 7, 2013 at 4:06 AM, Bob W  wrote:
>> Nobody's going to read that, whatever it's about. Several long blocks of 
>> text - why should anyone want to read it?
>> 
>> Whatever it is you want to say, say it in less than 7 short sentences.
>> 
>> B
>> 
>>> On 7 Oct 2013, at 08:56, Larry Colen  wrote:
 Stuff
>>> 
>>> -- 
>>> A newspaper is a device for making the ignorant more ignorant, and the 
>>> crazy, crazier.
>>> 
>>>  - H.L.Mencken
>>> 
>>> 
>>> -- 
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>>> follow the directions.
> 
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Re: facebook post about being the community photographer

[Walt]

On 10/8/2013 1:13 PM, Bob W wrote:

On 8 Oct 2013, at 19:04, Walt  wrote:

FWIW, I read through the entire thing without a problem. Though, admittedly, I 
am a pretty wordy writer.

Still, it just doesn't strike me as all that out-of-place to muse at some 
length on-topic in the context of a discussion list, or even on Facebook for 
that matter, since they truncate comments and provide a link to the full 
content for anyone who cares to read the whole thing.

I think the tendency among many readers toward a "tl;dr" or "OMG, it's full of 
words!" reaction to internet commentary that goes on for more than 250 words is lamentable in 
a lot of ways. And if we can't go on and on about things we have a passion for, it seems to me 
we're robbing ourselves of some of the joy in having passions at all.

Everybody's entitled to go on and on about anything they want.

But if you want people to read it, make it easy for them. There are many tried 
and tested ways of doing that. Unless you're Joyce or Kerouac (and even 
then...) a colossal brain dump is rarely one of them.

B

One of the lamentable consequences of the "tl;dr" trend is that three 
minutes of reading is now considered a colossal brain dump.


-- Walt

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Re: facebook post about being the community photographer

[Larry Colen]

On Tue, Oct 08, 2013 at 07:13:07PM +0100, Bob W wrote:
> On 8 Oct 2013, at 19:04, Walt  wrote:
> > 
> > FWIW, I read through the entire thing without a problem. Though, 
> > admittedly, I am a pretty wordy writer.
> > 
> > Still, it just doesn't strike me as all that out-of-place to muse at some 
> > length on-topic in the context of a discussion list, or even on Facebook 
> > for that matter, since they truncate comments and provide a link to the 
> > full content for anyone who cares to read the whole thing.
> > 
> > I think the tendency among many readers toward a "tl;dr" or "OMG, it's full 
> > of words!" reaction to internet commentary that goes on for more than 250 
> > words is lamentable in a lot of ways. And if we can't go on and on about 
> > things we have a passion for, it seems to me we're robbing ourselves of 
> > some of the joy in having passions at all.
> 
> Everybody's entitled to go on and on about anything they want. 
> 
> But if you want people to read it, make it easy for them. There are many 
> tried and tested ways of doing that. Unless you're Joyce or Kerouac (and even 
> then...) a colossal brain dump is rarely one of them.

There is a lot of truth in what you say.  However, when I'm juggling
a crazy work schedule as we near the first release of the product,
a contractor doing major repairs on my property, and the events 
surrounding the release of the book my sensei has been working on for
ten years:
http://journeytoaikido.com/
as well as sorting, processing and printing photos before her sensei
leaves for Japan Thursday morning, many more people read it than
would have read it if I had tried to get it perfect.  
At some point, I think I may want to revisit the subject, and look
at all sides of the situation.  What you need to do as the photographer,
as well as the venue owner,

Actually, the whole concept of invisible effort is worth thinking
about in every context, whether it's putting on Thanksgiving dinner,
taking photos of the school play, running a mailing list, 
or editing the PDML annual. There are a lot of tasks that you just
don't realize how much work is involved until you  have done them
yourself.

-- 
Larry Colen  l...@red4est.com http://red4est.com/lrc


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Re: facebook post about being the community photographer

[Larry Colen]

On Tue, Oct 08, 2013 at 01:27:47PM -0500, Walt wrote:
> >
> One of the lamentable consequences of the "tl;dr" trend is that
> three minutes of reading is now considered a colossal brain dump.

On the bright side, it's been many years since anyone as said
that I have a colossal brain.

-- 
Larry Colen  l...@red4est.com http://red4est.com/lrc


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Re: facebook post about being the community photographer

[Walt]

I should say that Bob does have a point and that it dovetails somewhat 
with your theme. Editing is a great example of the invisible effort 
you're talking about, and consumers don't generally give any thought to 
it until it doesn't happen.


It's just that I happen to think people are entitled to some forbearance 
to that end when it comes to discussions among friends.


-- Walt

On 10/8/2013 1:33 PM, Larry Colen wrote:

Actually, the whole concept of invisible effort is worth thinking
about in every context, whether it's putting on Thanksgiving dinner,
taking photos of the school play, running a mailing list,
or editing the PDML annual. There are a lot of tasks that you just
don't realize how much work is involved until you  have done them
yourself.



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Re: facebook post about being the community photographer

[Bob Sullivan]

Walt,
One of my favorite documents is Abraham Lincoln's Gettysburg Address.
He spoke at the dedication of the Gettysburg cemetery, a great
battlefield of our civil war.
He spoke to the assembled multitude,
after famous orators of the time spent several hours speaking to the crowd.
His address is one page and one of the most powerful in the English language.
I posted a copy on my wall at work - to say one page is enough!
see it here...
http://www.abrahamlincolnonline.org/lincoln/speeches/gettysburg.htm
We don't need more than three minutes to communicate what we know.
Regards,  Bob S

On Tue, Oct 8, 2013 at 1:27 PM, Walt  wrote:
> On 10/8/2013 1:13 PM, Bob W wrote:
>>
>> On 8 Oct 2013, at 19:04, Walt  wrote:
>>>
>>> FWIW, I read through the entire thing without a problem. Though,
>>> admittedly, I am a pretty wordy writer.
>>>
>>> Still, it just doesn't strike me as all that out-of-place to muse at some
>>> length on-topic in the context of a discussion list, or even on Facebook for
>>> that matter, since they truncate comments and provide a link to the full
>>> content for anyone who cares to read the whole thing.
>>>
>>> I think the tendency among many readers toward a "tl;dr" or "OMG, it's
>>> full of words!" reaction to internet commentary that goes on for more than
>>> 250 words is lamentable in a lot of ways. And if we can't go on and on about
>>> things we have a passion for, it seems to me we're robbing ourselves of some
>>> of the joy in having passions at all.
>>
>> Everybody's entitled to go on and on about anything they want.
>>
>> But if you want people to read it, make it easy for them. There are many
>> tried and tested ways of doing that. Unless you're Joyce or Kerouac (and
>> even then...) a colossal brain dump is rarely one of them.
>>
>> B
>>
> One of the lamentable consequences of the "tl;dr" trend is that three
> minutes of reading is now considered a colossal brain dump.
>
> -- Walt
>
>
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Re: facebook post about being the community photographer

[Bruce Walker]

Is it really too much to ask to have a meaningful Subject and a
statement of purpose? Something to say why I should be interested?  I
am willing to forgive an essay written in some haste for its wordiness
and actually read the thing ... _IF_ I know what it's about.

This one came across to me just like starting into the 3rd paragraph
of a report on the City of Mississauga expenditures for 1st quarter
2011, or a scientific treatise on the effect of a lack of potassium on
fungus gnat reasoning abilities. It required me to scan downward
through a dense thicket of words to divine what the premise is.

Some things aren't worth sending out into the world. Like bread dough,
yucky uncooked, but well worthwhile when baked.

If one doesn't yet have the time to finish something, put it away for later.


On Tue, Oct 8, 2013 at 2:45 PM, Walt  wrote:
> I should say that Bob does have a point and that it dovetails somewhat with
> your theme. Editing is a great example of the invisible effort you're
> talking about, and consumers don't generally give any thought to it until it
> doesn't happen.
>
> It's just that I happen to think people are entitled to some forbearance to
> that end when it comes to discussions among friends.
>
> -- Walt
>
>
> On 10/8/2013 1:33 PM, Larry Colen wrote:
>>
>> Actually, the whole concept of invisible effort is worth thinking
>> about in every context, whether it's putting on Thanksgiving dinner,
>> taking photos of the school play, running a mailing list,
>> or editing the PDML annual. There are a lot of tasks that you just
>> don't realize how much work is involved until you  have done them
>> yourself.
>
>
>
> --
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> PDML@pdml.net
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> to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and
> follow the directions.



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Re: facebook post about being the community photographer

[P.J. Alling]

I was going to say something about brains taking a dump but sometimes 
the low hanging slow ball just isn't enough of a challenge.


On 10/8/2013 2:34 PM, Larry Colen wrote:

On Tue, Oct 08, 2013 at 01:27:47PM -0500, Walt wrote:

One of the lamentable consequences of the "tl;dr" trend is that
three minutes of reading is now considered a colossal brain dump.

On the bright side, it's been many years since anyone as said
that I have a colossal brain.




--
A newspaper is a device for making the ignorant more ignorant, and the crazy, 
crazier.

 - H.L.Mencken


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Re: facebook post about being the community photographer

[Walt Gilbert]

Everything you said is true, but it's not like it cost anyone any money. 
In my experience, I can determine whether or not I want to read 
something and decide whether or not to do so in a shorter period of time 
than it takes to write the response informing the writer in question 
whether or not I chose to read it and why.


And any time spent on the exercise beyond what's required to decide is a 
further investment of time that you feel you wasted to begin with.


-- Walt


On 10/8/2013 2:21 PM, Bruce Walker wrote:

Is it really too much to ask to have a meaningful Subject and a
statement of purpose? Something to say why I should be interested?  I
am willing to forgive an essay written in some haste for its wordiness
and actually read the thing ... _IF_ I know what it's about.

This one came across to me just like starting into the 3rd paragraph
of a report on the City of Mississauga expenditures for 1st quarter
2011, or a scientific treatise on the effect of a lack of potassium on
fungus gnat reasoning abilities. It required me to scan downward
through a dense thicket of words to divine what the premise is.

Some things aren't worth sending out into the world. Like bread dough,
yucky uncooked, but well worthwhile when baked.

If one doesn't yet have the time to finish something, put it away for later.


On Tue, Oct 8, 2013 at 2:45 PM, Walt  wrote:

I should say that Bob does have a point and that it dovetails somewhat with
your theme. Editing is a great example of the invisible effort you're
talking about, and consumers don't generally give any thought to it until it
doesn't happen.

It's just that I happen to think people are entitled to some forbearance to
that end when it comes to discussions among friends.

-- Walt


On 10/8/2013 1:33 PM, Larry Colen wrote:

Actually, the whole concept of invisible effort is worth thinking
about in every context, whether it's putting on Thanksgiving dinner,
taking photos of the school play, running a mailing list,
or editing the PDML annual. There are a lot of tasks that you just
don't realize how much work is involved until you  have done them
yourself.



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follow the directions.






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Re: facebook post about being the community photographer

[Walt Gilbert]

True enough. All I'm saying is that falling short of the Lincolnian 
standard is a near-universal trait among writers and orators. And, 
thankfully, most people don't deem it necessary to point it out.


-- Walt

On 10/8/2013 2:10 PM, Bob Sullivan wrote:

Walt,
One of my favorite documents is Abraham Lincoln's Gettysburg Address.
He spoke at the dedication of the Gettysburg cemetery, a great
battlefield of our civil war.
He spoke to the assembled multitude,
after famous orators of the time spent several hours speaking to the crowd.
His address is one page and one of the most powerful in the English language.
I posted a copy on my wall at work - to say one page is enough!
see it here...
http://www.abrahamlincolnonline.org/lincoln/speeches/gettysburg.htm
We don't need more than three minutes to communicate what we know.
Regards,  Bob S

On Tue, Oct 8, 2013 at 1:27 PM, Walt  wrote:

On 10/8/2013 1:13 PM, Bob W wrote:

On 8 Oct 2013, at 19:04, Walt  wrote:

FWIW, I read through the entire thing without a problem. Though,
admittedly, I am a pretty wordy writer.

Still, it just doesn't strike me as all that out-of-place to muse at some
length on-topic in the context of a discussion list, or even on Facebook for
that matter, since they truncate comments and provide a link to the full
content for anyone who cares to read the whole thing.

I think the tendency among many readers toward a "tl;dr" or "OMG, it's
full of words!" reaction to internet commentary that goes on for more than
250 words is lamentable in a lot of ways. And if we can't go on and on about
things we have a passion for, it seems to me we're robbing ourselves of some
of the joy in having passions at all.

Everybody's entitled to go on and on about anything they want.

But if you want people to read it, make it easy for them. There are many
tried and tested ways of doing that. Unless you're Joyce or Kerouac (and
even then...) a colossal brain dump is rarely one of them.

B


One of the lamentable consequences of the "tl;dr" trend is that three
minutes of reading is now considered a colossal brain dump.

-- Walt


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Re: facebook post about being the community photographer

[Bruce Walker]

Sure, Walt, and like everyone at one time or another, I do that too.
And if the article was from someone who only or usually writes dull
drivel, I'd spend little time before silently moving on.

But Larry writes worthwhile stuff -- often hilarious -- and I had high
hopes. So to discover that I'm lost almost immediately is
disappointing. I would hope that my comments might provide some useful
feedback.

I was probably too abrupt; rude even. I should have heeded my own
advice and edited my reply until it wasn't.

tlt;de
Too Little Time; Didn't Edit


On Tue, Oct 8, 2013 at 4:31 PM, Walt Gilbert  wrote:
> Everything you said is true, but it's not like it cost anyone any money. In
> my experience, I can determine whether or not I want to read something and
> decide whether or not to do so in a shorter period of time than it takes to
> write the response informing the writer in question whether or not I chose
> to read it and why.
>
> And any time spent on the exercise beyond what's required to decide is a
> further investment of time that you feel you wasted to begin with.
>
> -- Walt
>
>
>
> On 10/8/2013 2:21 PM, Bruce Walker wrote:
>>
>> Is it really too much to ask to have a meaningful Subject and a
>> statement of purpose? Something to say why I should be interested?  I
>> am willing to forgive an essay written in some haste for its wordiness
>> and actually read the thing ... _IF_ I know what it's about.
>>
>> This one came across to me just like starting into the 3rd paragraph
>> of a report on the City of Mississauga expenditures for 1st quarter
>> 2011, or a scientific treatise on the effect of a lack of potassium on
>> fungus gnat reasoning abilities. It required me to scan downward
>> through a dense thicket of words to divine what the premise is.
>>
>> Some things aren't worth sending out into the world. Like bread dough,
>> yucky uncooked, but well worthwhile when baked.
>>
>> If one doesn't yet have the time to finish something, put it away for
>> later.
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Oct 8, 2013 at 2:45 PM, Walt  wrote:
>>>
>>> I should say that Bob does have a point and that it dovetails somewhat
>>> with
>>> your theme. Editing is a great example of the invisible effort you're
>>> talking about, and consumers don't generally give any thought to it until
>>> it
>>> doesn't happen.
>>>
>>> It's just that I happen to think people are entitled to some forbearance
>>> to
>>> that end when it comes to discussions among friends.
>>>
>>> -- Walt
>>>
>>>
>>> On 10/8/2013 1:33 PM, Larry Colen wrote:

 Actually, the whole concept of invisible effort is worth thinking
 about in every context, whether it's putting on Thanksgiving dinner,
 taking photos of the school play, running a mailing list,
 or editing the PDML annual. There are a lot of tasks that you just
 don't realize how much work is involved until you  have done them
 yourself.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List
>>> PDML@pdml.net
>>> http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
>>> to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and
>>> follow the directions.
>>
>>
>>
>
>
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Re: facebook post about being the community photographer

[Larry Colen]

On Tue, Oct 08, 2013 at 04:44:17PM -0400, Bruce Walker wrote:
> Sure, Walt, and like everyone at one time or another, I do that too.
> And if the article was from someone who only or usually writes dull
> drivel, I'd spend little time before silently moving on.
> 
> But Larry writes worthwhile stuff -- often hilarious -- and I had high
> hopes. So to discover that I'm lost almost immediately is
> disappointing. I would hope that my comments might provide some useful
> feedback.

Thanks for the above paragraph, that makes the previous feedback a
bit more palatable. 

The formatting wasn't nearly as opaque on facebook, I didn't realize
that it would fare so poorly in the cut and paste. 
It is still a rather formidable chunk of text, but judging by the
comments left on it, several people did read it, and
gained a bit of appreciation into what goes into the process
of event photography.  For those who are facebook enabled, the 
original post is at:

https://www.facebook.com/ellarsee/posts/10152008328089673


> 
> I was probably too abrupt; rude even. I should have heeded my own
> advice and edited my reply until it wasn't.
> 
> tlt;de
> Too Little Time; Didn't Edit

I can sympathize, I've been there myself.  :-)

> 
> 
> On Tue, Oct 8, 2013 at 4:31 PM, Walt Gilbert  wrote:
> > Everything you said is true, but it's not like it cost anyone any money. In
> > my experience, I can determine whether or not I want to read something and
> > decide whether or not to do so in a shorter period of time than it takes to
> > write the response informing the writer in question whether or not I chose
> > to read it and why.
> >
> > And any time spent on the exercise beyond what's required to decide is a
> > further investment of time that you feel you wasted to begin with.
> >
> > -- Walt
> >
> >
> >
> > On 10/8/2013 2:21 PM, Bruce Walker wrote:
> >>
> >> Is it really too much to ask to have a meaningful Subject and a
> >> statement of purpose? Something to say why I should be interested?  I
> >> am willing to forgive an essay written in some haste for its wordiness
> >> and actually read the thing ... _IF_ I know what it's about.
> >>
> >> This one came across to me just like starting into the 3rd paragraph
> >> of a report on the City of Mississauga expenditures for 1st quarter
> >> 2011, or a scientific treatise on the effect of a lack of potassium on
> >> fungus gnat reasoning abilities. It required me to scan downward
> >> through a dense thicket of words to divine what the premise is.
> >>
> >> Some things aren't worth sending out into the world. Like bread dough,
> >> yucky uncooked, but well worthwhile when baked.
> >>
> >> If one doesn't yet have the time to finish something, put it away for
> >> later.
> >>
> >>
> >> On Tue, Oct 8, 2013 at 2:45 PM, Walt  wrote:
> >>>
> >>> I should say that Bob does have a point and that it dovetails somewhat
> >>> with
> >>> your theme. Editing is a great example of the invisible effort you're
> >>> talking about, and consumers don't generally give any thought to it until
> >>> it
> >>> doesn't happen.
> >>>
> >>> It's just that I happen to think people are entitled to some forbearance
> >>> to
> >>> that end when it comes to discussions among friends.
> >>>
> >>> -- Walt
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> On 10/8/2013 1:33 PM, Larry Colen wrote:
> 
>  Actually, the whole concept of invisible effort is worth thinking
>  about in every context, whether it's putting on Thanksgiving dinner,
>  taking photos of the school play, running a mailing list,
>  or editing the PDML annual. There are a lot of tasks that you just
>  don't realize how much work is involved until you  have done them
>  yourself.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> --
> >>> PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List
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Re: facebook post about being the community photographer

[Doug Brewer]

On 10/7/13 3:56 AM, Larry Colen wrote:

This is somethingt that has been brewing in my mind for a while.  I didn't
have time to do more than just spew it out, without editing.  And it
was a real challlenge trying to phrase it as "there are people out there
doing a lot more work than you realize", and not come across as "I do
all this stuff for you, what are you going to do for me?".  I hope
I succeeded.


For what it's worth, Larry, I read it both here and on FB. I don't know 
what it was really about, but what I came away with is the feeling of "I 
do this thing and I want appreciation."


I'm sure the people you photograph do appreciate it, especially when you 
give them photos they can post to Facebook or whatever, but here's the 
thing; you aimed, in large part, at the event organizers, and your 
little rant will probably fall on deaf ears, for the following reason. 
They are not there to make it easy for you to take photographs. They are 
there to put on a dance, and their energies, by right, will be applied 
to that end. Anything else is beside the point, including photographers, 
no matter how good their equipment/skill set may be.


If you're that frustrated trying to get photos of the dances, leave the 
camera in the car. Go and dance. Find a woman who wants to dance, and 
spend the evening pleasantly. If you want to go take pictures, do that. 
But remember that your photographic activity ranks pretty low on the agenda.


You mentioned here in the thread, among other things, running a mail 
list. I don't run the PDML in order to be thanked for running the PDML. 
I run it because it's my feeble way to give back to the community where 
I've learned so much. The satisfaction I get from doing it is all the 
appreciation I need. That people are willing to contribute to it 
financially is not because I run it, but because the members appreciate 
the community as much as I do, and that is also very satisfactory to me.


Finally, it's almost never a good idea to post the first thing that 
comes into your head, no matter how busy you are. I think you may be 
coming to realize that.


My two cents.

Doug

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Re: facebook post about being the community photographer

[Eactivist]

A clear writer doesn't make his reader work too  hard to get his/her point. 
Especially since not all readers have the same skill  set, i.e. some read 
quickly/some read slowly/and everywhere in between.  

And good writing is clear writing. Clarity reveals ideas; too  much 
wordiness and rambling obscures ideas.

Marnie aka  Doe   Or so I was told once, when I rambled on and on with too 
many  run-on sentences, usually separated by commas, spewing out idea after 
idea, one  after another, by a very good writer. ;-)

In a message dated 10/8/2013  12:22:19 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time, 
bruce.wal...@gmail.com writes:
Is it  really too much to ask to have a meaningful Subject and a
statement of  purpose? Something to say why I should be interested?  I
am willing to  forgive an essay written in some haste for its wordiness
and actually read  the thing ... _IF_ I know what it's about.

This one came across to me  just like starting into the 3rd paragraph
of a report on the City of  Mississauga expenditures for 1st quarter
2011, or a scientific treatise on  the effect of a lack of potassium on
fungus gnat reasoning abilities. It  required me to scan downward
through a dense thicket of words to divine what  the premise is.

Some things aren't worth sending out into the world. Like  bread dough,
yucky uncooked, but well worthwhile when baked.

If one  doesn't yet have the time to finish something, put it away for  
later.


On Tue, Oct 8, 2013 at 2:45 PM, Walt   wrote:
> I should say that Bob does have a  point and that it dovetails somewhat 
with
> your theme. Editing is a great  example of the invisible effort you're
> talking about, and consumers  don't generally give any thought to it 
until it
> doesn't  happen.
>
> It's just that I happen to think people are entitled to  some forbearance 
to
> that end when it comes to discussions among  friends.
>
> -- Walt
>
>
> On 10/8/2013 1:33 PM,  Larry Colen wrote:
>>
>> Actually, the whole concept of  invisible effort is worth thinking
>> about in every context, whether  it's putting on Thanksgiving dinner,
>> taking photos of the school  play, running a mailing list,
>> or editing the PDML annual. There are  a lot of tasks that you just
>> don't realize how much work is involved  until you  have done them
>>  yourself.
>
>
>
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Re: facebook post about being the community photographer

[Boris Liberman]

On 10/8/2013 8:47 AM, Larry Colen wrote:

Thanks Boris.  There's a lot to the subject, on both sides of
the camera.  It's a tough subject to write about without sounding
like "I showed up and did something without being asked, and now
you owe me".  On the other hand, there are a lot of people who put
in a lot of "invisible effort" and it can be good to make that
effort visible to others.


Larry, I think it comes with what average westerner (I have no clue 
whatsoever as to "common social practices" of non-western-civilization 
folk) considers to be socially proper.


Over beer, which I hope we will one day have, we could exchange our 
impressions and afterthoughts from "social photography" projects each of 
us had.



Or, you could offer to teach a "photography for parents" class.
Bring Galia along and show them that taking good pictures is so
easy a child could do it. So long as the child was willing to put
in a little bit of effort to learn how to do it well.


Now you positively make me LOL here, Larry. OTOH, it certainly indicates 
that you haven't yet set your foot on the Holy Soil... The probability 
of non-zero attendance should I indicate I wanted to perform such a 
trick act would approach zero from below...


But then again, a good chuckle over morning cup of tea is always a good 
thing.


Boris



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