Re: I NEED HELP ASAP!
I was probably the first one to encounter this problem. This was clearly caused by new indexing engine introduced with PM5. I hope CTMDev is taking a hard look at this. In my case, PMSalvage ($50!) did not help, but just wasting my two days to find it couldn't transfer most of my mails in Japanese. You might not have this problem if no multi-byte message in your dB. I ended up with exporting from PM5, importing to PM4, rebuild database then reimport back to PM5. Since then, PM5 has been working just fine. The entire process took me 10 days. I do not believe my PM4 database was somewhat less than kosher. My strong believe was that PM5 background indexing in some point made a few old messages corrupted. -- - Hiro [PROTECTED] [PROTECTED] [PROTECTED]
Re: [AS] need help
cheshirekat 5-07-2004: To use this script... It works!! I don't see the text signatures as a property of a message, so it appears it isn't possible to add a text signature to messages. well, I can select the right signature manually ;-) -- marco osti | [EMAIL PROTECTED] | www.mosti.pair.com
Re: [AS] need help
On Mon, Jul 5, 200411:27 AM, the following words from marco osti
[EMAIL PROTECTED], emerged from a plethora of SPAM ...
I have this script someone here suggested to me (tnx); it's pretty
fine if it'll open the message window instead of creating the new
message and place it in out tray as draft. I opened the as
dictionary of powermail: closed just in time avoiding injury :-(
tell application PowerMail
activate
account [EMAIL PROTECTED]
make new message with properties {subject:ordine #54575, recipient:
{name [EMAIL PROTECTED]}}
open message
end tell
I'm very sorry about this /again-once more/ request but I lost the
relative messages: which way do you prefer to create/use a template
message for a daily order? I need to select my relative account
put the same subject, some address, some signature.
Here is an example:
Begin AppleScript
property subj : Please read - details inside.
property msgTxt : Important Information for you.
property rTo : Mr. Nobody [EMAIL PROTECTED]
property acct : Name of the Account
property fldrN : Business -- put the name of your folder choice
tell application PowerMail
set the newM to make new message with properties {subject:subj,
content:msgTxt, recipient:rTo, account:acct} at message container fldrN
open the newM
end tell
End AppleScript
I think new messages are automatically created in the Out Tray, unless
you tell PowerMail in your script to create the new message in another
message folder. If you delete the at message container fldrN part
above, your message will be created in the Out Tray.
To use this script, just change the values/data of the properties at the
top. For instance, the rTo property is the person you are sending the
message to. You can change it to something like, cheshirekat
[EMAIL PROTECTED] or a list of names like, cheshirekat
[EMAIL PROTECTED], marco osti [EMAIL PROTECTED]
I don't see the text signatures as a property of a message, so it appears
it isn't possible to add a text signature to messages. I haven't tried to
do so, but if it is possible others will know about it, though it should
be in the dictionary.
HTH
cheshirekat
--
Music . . . can name the unnameable and communicate the unknowable.
- Leonard Bernstein (1918 - 1990)
* 867 PowerBook G4 * OS X 10.2.8 * 768 MB Ram *
Re(2): Need help finding features/functions
On Mon, Nov 24, 2003, it is attributed to Tim Hodgson to have said: I don't know if anyone can provide hard information about what proportion of mail servers out there, running what software, are likely to do this? Well, unless I missed the setting, EIMS doesn't seem to have it as a settable value, so either it simply doesn't insert breaks, or the breakpoint is factory-set. -- later, JS ___ :: john snippe :: design:integrate:host ::
Re(2): Need help finding features/functions
On 24 11 2003 at 5:37 pm -0500, Tim Hodgson wrote: I don't know if anyone can provide hard information about what proportion of mail servers out there, running what software, are likely to do this? Clearly, nobody can, since nobody knows the details of every one else's (or anyone's else, if you will) mail server on the entire internet. Nonetheless, one of the nuances of this discussion is that the very question, while of academic interest, would provide an answer of no practical relevance. -ben -- Ben Kennedy, chief magician zygoat creative technical services 613-228-3392 | 1-866-466-4628 http://www.zygoat.ca
Re(2): Need help finding features/functions
This whole argument seems to come down to the issue of whether random servers through which an email may pass will truncate lines to 78 chars. Several of us have pointed out that this does happen; Tass's experience is that it never (or vanishingly rarely) does. I don't know if anyone can provide hard information about what proportion of mail servers out there, running what software, are likely to do this? Just my attempt to extract something useful from the noise :-) TimH
Re(4): Need help finding features/functions
A-NO-NE, [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: and No hard-Return to assure the compatibility. It's a bit silly to not allow hard-returns at the end of paragraphs or paragraph headlines PM 4.2.1 | OS X 10.2.6 | Powerbook G3/266 | 128 MB RAM | 20 GB HD
Re(3): Need help finding features/functions
On 11/24/03 1:38 AM tass wrote: Yes, of course I put in my own returns. That's proper typing; whether on paper, in a computer window, or so it might be printed at the other end. To do otherwise is, I'm sorry to say, a laziness induced by word processing programs that do the job for you, if you let it. But it had never made it proper. Yes, putting in your own returns was proper on a typewriter; you couldn't do it any other way. I am old enough to remember those days. You might have to retype a whole page, or even several pages, in order to add a comma or change a word. I'd like to have 10 cents for every minute I spent figuring out how to make a correction that would avoid all that -- I could buy my wife and myself a fine dinner! I call it efficiency, not laziness. In a way, I suppose word processing programs have made us lazy. Corrections are so easy now, I don't think through my wording as carefully as I once had to. I wore out a lot of pencils making drafts back then. Len -- Leonard Morgenstern [EMAIL PROTECTED] People like me like me. --An example of why direct computer translation won't ever work.
Re(2): Need help finding features/functions
tass wrote on Mon 24 Nov 2003 at 01:38 -0700 Yes, of course I put in my own returns. That's proper typing; whether on paper, in a computer window, or so it might be printed at the other end. I think you'll find 99% of users disagree. That is not the accepted way of using electronic communications, either for email or a letter to be printed. Its already been pointed out to you the difference between a screen and a piece of paper. By the way, what size paper do you think I'm going to print your missives on anyway? If you're a North American maybe you assume 'letter' size. Or a European then 'A4'. Your theory and ways of working fall down at every hurdle. But then if you are happy working your way in a closed loop system, carry on. There are other applications which will work the way you want to right now. This one doesn't. Like everything, its a compromise. Enough! Make your decision on the information to hand. Don't expect the world to change just for you. None of us are that important! -- david.gordon
Re(2): Need help finding features/functions
Hi David. I apologize for having taken you post harshly. Was getting a little frustrated, I guess. :-) Yes, of course I put in my own returns. That's proper typing; whether on paper, in a computer window, or so it might be printed at the other end. To do otherwise is, I'm sorry to say, a laziness induced by word processing programs that do the job for you, if you let it. But it had never made it proper. But as the Hanagan test post demonstrates, all can be pure sweetness and light for everyone if there is simply no unrealistic restriction placed for no good reason. I still agree that there should be a maximum out there somewhere. But just not at a point that is less than one would type a normal letter. I do appreciate your clarifying your disposition, and again, apologize if I came off as a bit terse. Wish you well, ht On 11/24/03, david.gordon wrote: tass wrote on Sun 23 Nov 2003 at 15:39 -0700 If you'd been following the thread, actually reading all, this question would never have come to mind. There is a slight danger of the above being seen as offensive. I have been following and reading this whole thread. I asked the question because I am polite, would never assume and like to check the facts before commenting. But the answer is: Of course not. So you're not adding extra line breaks into your emails? That's not the impression I got from your answer to Marlyse Comte; Are you manually entering line-feeds in your paragraphs? Absolutely. [back to your message] Any and all weirdness viewed in these emails is strictly the fault of PM not allowing me to type my emails as I have elsewhere for many years. I think the people here, including myself, are saying that maybe you are working in an odd way. Adding line breaks is odd. Its not the accepted way of working because its not needed. Doesn't mean you can't but to blame your tools for the weird way your message turns out is wrong. That toe the line and do as I have set forth for you to do attitude is exactly why I left the Microsoft world behind. Perhaps there's nothing wrong with the Microsoft world. Perhaps it works just fine for those who learn how to and use it correctly. Is it at all possible that you are trying to force MS to work in your unconventional way and that might be the reason you are leaving it behind? Lots of people here are trying to help you out. It seems to me you have a fixed way of working and aren't persuaded by the arguments that you are at odds with the rest, not just this group, of the world's way of writing emails. I think if you can't see that now, if you rally really want to try to format your email correspondence like a paper letter, PowerMail is not for you. Go and try Mail.app where you can compose rich text mail. Or even have a go at Mailsmith. With its vast array of preferences I'm sure you'll be able to wrap text at 120 or whatever characters. And I don't claim anything. I merely state as I know it to be. I don't know if that was aimed at me, if so it went over my head. -- david.gordon
Re(4): Need help finding features/functions
On 23/11/03 Wayne Brissette wrote: User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC; en-US; rv:1.0.2) Gecko/ 20030208 Netscape/7.02 But if the sender and the receiver allowed no limit on the line length would the same have happened? In other words is it PM that chops the line length on receipt, or does it happen somewhere in between? Or possibly both? Personally I'm all for the PM way of doing things. Once everyone starts having their own 'standard' the whole thing falls down. cheers, Chris
Re(4): Need help finding features/functions
Hear! Hear! Hiro has spoken the simple truths. I think Michael would also agree with them. Just today I have been arguing with a colleague. He wants to sent a 100k attachment to a 300 people, not all in readily accessible places. I say we place all those would-be attachments on our web site and create an index page so each person can get to their personalized version, then send only the url for that web page. In a similar situation a year ago, we had people who could be expected to recieve such stuff tell us that they would prefer not to get attachments so they could control when they accessed that full information. midi Hiro caused electrons to hula in cyberspace with: I educate my clients, Telling them email format must be simple for smooth communication, Limit to simple text Only, No HTML, No attachment but send notice beforehand when needed, and No hard-Return to assure the compatibility. -- - Hiro
Re(4): Need help finding features/functions
I educate my clients, Telling them email format must be simple for smooth communication, Limit to simple text Only, No HTML, No attachment but send notice beforehand when needed, and No hard-Return to assure the compatibility. -- - Hiro [PROTECTED] [PROTECTED]
Re(2): Need help finding features/functions
If you'd been following the thread, actually reading all, this question would never have come to mind. But the answer is: Of course not. That's the very thing that I've NEVER had to deal with before, and trying to prevent from occurring. Keep in mind, all these communications I've sent to this group were made in PM. Any and all weirdness viewed in these emails is strictly the fault of PM not allowing me to type my emails as I have elsewhere for many years. Many things I'm quite willing to learn the new concepts and conventions as I get adjusted to the new climate in Macland. But having my emails look like that or end up completely random because of having to bow to some preset whim of a program wishing to do my thinking for me is unacceptable. That toe the line and do as I have set forth for you to do attitude is exactly why I left the Microsoft world behind. I don't need to simply find it again in only slightly different facade. And I don't claim anything. I merely state as I know it to be. ht On 11/23/03, david.gordon wrote: tass wrote on Sun 23 Nov 2003 at 01:59 -0700 I really didn't mean to get you, or anyone else hot about the collar. Initially, I just asked a simple question about a long standing feature that's widely I've come back from a weekend away to too much of this! Tass, did you claim you are writing emails with line breaks where you want them so readers see exactly what you want them to see formatting wise. Am I correct? So did you really type the above quote as shown here? Initially, line break/ new line, I just asked Pardon my criticism of your style but why the new line after just one word? And later to be able to send a nice letter that, should it be printed, will look like the letter I typed? When did freedom become such a hateful concept? :-) Do you really format your emails with only two words on a line? And that's the way you wanted me to see your mail? Just wondering... -- david.gordon
Re(2): Need help finding features/functions
tass wrote on Sun 23 Nov 2003 at 01:59 -0700 I really didn't mean to get you, or anyone else hot about the collar. Initially, I just asked a simple question about a long standing feature that's widely I've come back from a weekend away to too much of this! Tass, did you claim you are writing emails with line breaks where you want them so readers see exactly what you want them to see formatting wise. Am I correct? So did you really type the above quote as shown here? Initially, line break/ new line, I just asked Pardon my criticism of your style but why the new line after just one word? And later to be able to send a nice letter that, should it be printed, will look like the letter I typed? When did freedom become such a hateful concept? :-) Do you really format your emails with only two words on a line? And that's the way you wanted me to see your mail? Just wondering... -- david.gordon
Re(4): Need help finding features/functions
tass [EMAIL PROTECTED] on 11/23/03 at 2:02 PM stated: Yes, I typed a return right where you supposed. And had PM NOT wrapped it at 78, but allowed me to set the wrap for, say 110 as I've done quite satisfactorily for the past 96+ months, that's how it would still have shown up. Here is a MUCH better example of the problem HT. This is a message that was sent to via a list (which introduces yet other restrictions), but illustrates the point we've been making without PowerMail being in the middle, so what you see below is EXACTLY how 100's of other's also saw this message: im hoping that at some in the near future emagic corrects this .i ve had this problem before cant remember what i did to solve it but now it is a problem here it is please insert orignal cd within a week to use program So what mailer was used? User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC; en-US; rv:1.0.2) Gecko/ 20030208 Netscape/7.02 One that allows you do exactly what you want, set the line lengths to the exact length you want. And I'm afraid we've all gotten each other's point, but I have to ask. Why is it if you know that you'll break something that you still do it? As I see it it's like using a 20-lb hammer to nail in finishing nails? You know you'll do some damage (cause you've seen it already), but you still won't change the way you drive the nails. There are way too many factors involved in text email for a true WYSIWYG on both ends without resorting to HTML, MIME, or RTF. If you really want to set your line lengths then you really should consider A) another application because I don't think PM is going to change this in the near future B) look at sending HTML, MIME, or RTF mail which would mean moving from PowerMail. Wayne -- All human rules are more or less idiotic. - Mark Twain Live DAT Music Page: http://homepage.mac.com/wayneb/ Wayne's Music Calendar: http://ical.mac.com/wayneb/Music PowerMail AppleScript Archives: http://homepage.mac.com/wayneb/powermail.html Music Currently playing:
Re(4): Need help finding features/functions
He Marlyse, Too cute to not reply. :-) That's exactly my point. Yes, I typed a return right where you supposed. And had PM NOT wrapped it at 78, but allowed me to set the wrap for, say 110 as I've done quite satisfactorily for the past 96+ months, that's how it would still have shown up. :-) Have a great day, Marlyse. ht On 11/23/03, Marlyse Comte wrote: hehe... can't resist this last one - but I promise, after this one I'll let it rest too: the following quote is exactly how I received your last message: As for silly original poster not getting the point; I got it. I got it years ago, MANY years ago. my question: now, is that really how you wanted to line-break? I am pretty certain not and that you will say, yeah, exactly my point, I hit return AFTER the word years, not before and that darn PM doesn't allow me to send it out like that. right? if you think so, you've just proven that you indeed did not get the point some people tried getting across to you. and in return, you'll think that we don't get the point you are trying to get across to us. no biggie, really. you think you are right and I think I am right, that is all ;-) ---marlyse
Re(4): Need help finding features/functions
hehe... can't resist this last one - but I promise, after this one I'll let it rest too: the following quote is exactly how I received your last message: As for silly original poster not getting the point; I got it. I got it years ago, MANY years ago. my question: now, is that really how you wanted to line-break? I am pretty certain not and that you will say, yeah, exactly my point, I hit return AFTER the word years, not before and that darn PM doesn't allow me to send it out like that. right? if you think so, you've just proven that you indeed did not get the point some people tried getting across to you. and in return, you'll think that we don't get the point you are trying to get across to us. no biggie, really. you think you are right and I think I am right, that is all ;-) ---marlyse
Re(3): Need help finding features/functions
On 11/23/03, Marlyse Comte wrote: I think this is the exact point which hasn't fully been understood yet by the original poster - I believe he thinks that if it looks nice on HIS computer, it will arrive the same at some other computer. ---marlyse OK, it's obviously time to let this thing drop. I keep having to repeat myself in order to try to get a few people to finally hear what is being said. One said that I'm not listening? And it's obvious that there is a consistent assumption that I must be new to this whole email thing with some pie-in-the-sky expectations. So just to wrap up and close out the conversation (hopefully), The first computer I ever used was a IIe way back in 83. I got my hands of one of the first colour macs in our town in around (what?) 86 or so. Then had a long break from computers. Got my first Windows machine in 94, started using Netscape for email around 95, switched to Calypso in 97 after trying Eudora and a few others, Checked out ThBat, PocoMail, and a few others around 99, kept close watch on the (ehem) fun my clients were having with Outlook and Outlook Express, on and on... The only thing about this entire experience over the past 9 years or so that came new to me was finding an email app that DIDN'T allow me to send messages wrapped where I deemed best, and this ancient suggestion, not a protocol, not a rule, not a law, a suggestion. So I asked an innocent question about why this basic function was not present in PM as it is in most EVERY other email program I've tried. Michael seems maybe of too literal a mind to get where I tried to use either humour or simple, obvious exaggeration to make a point. Sorry. (Not being critical, just an observation.) I'm a very visual person and metaphors come to me easily. It usually works most times. And his replies did seem to sound as if they had a twinge of sting in them. That's why his and another's posts were seeming a tad bit antagonistic. Mine might have been taken that way by them, as well. If so, my apologies. Never my intention at any turn in my life. I like fun, smiles, and laughs. The rest is for beginners!:-) As for silly original poster not getting the point; I got it. I got it years ago, MANY years ago. So I'll say it one last time, I do see my mail at the other end in so many cases. I do see it when it comes back quoted. I have seen the full gamut of possibilities. I'm more than well aware of that which I speak for I am NOT a lone voice in a crowd. I'm coming to you FROM the actual crowd. At the character length I'm speaking of, I'd say 9 out of 10 times it looks exactly there, as it did here (aside from them having set different fonts or slightly different font size on their app). It has worked fine this way for over 9 years - just the same as everyone else, a few obvious exceptions noted. As for freedom being selfish, well, idealism is a wonderful thing. But reality is what we actually have. And every act, no matter how much it may appear, or we'd like to convince ourselves it is, altruistic, the fact is there's no such thing. Every act we make is, by definition, selfish. How that word got such a bad connotation I'll never understand. It's not really good either. It's just reality. I'll close now. I thank you all for your help with some things, your listening to others. And for your thoughts and opinions as well. I appreciate even those that I don't agree with for all ideas are worthy. Again, sorry for the tempest in a teapot. Be well, be happy, have fun, ht
Re(3): Need help finding features/functions
ahhh! the quiet observer found where this hole commotion stems from! Ok, here is something that I'm not getting in the whole email composition argument. And I'm not meaning to criticize anything, I'm just seeking clarification. Are you manually entering line-feeds in your paragraphs? Absolutely. To do otherwise either relies on the program to break the line as you type, or for you to set the window width at exactly the point at which it will be broken when it gets sent. this is the exact point where you ARE getting fooled: obviously you are typing your lines longer than the standard internet protocol and then entering a HARD RETURN and thus your emails arrive not nicely wrapped. Other than for example in QuarkXpress and/or InDesign - both design programs for PRINT, here in the world of the internet there exists no other type of returns in email than hard returns. Powermail basically doesn't wrap at all on out-going mail - you open or close the window width how it is comfortable for you to read and the servers then wrap the lines to the internet standard. And I've never minded typing in my own RETURN. In fact, that's exactly how I need it to be. I do know how to type, and to format a proper letter. If you do type a letter, you are used to the fact that paper size is what it is and that you can not endlessly type but you have to hit return within these boundaries. As PM allowes you to widen or tighten the width of the window, one can loose sight of what would be such a boundary and in fact that there ARE such boundaries, even if invisible. If you can get the concept of the standard internet type wrapping as the 'format of the paper' you might better understand what happens if you type longer lines before hitting return. On mechanical typewriters you could easily do that and you'd just continue typing not onto paper but onto the cylinder. In email exchange the 'overwritten' text does not get lost but put onto the next line. Basically, if you INSIST on wanting to use your own hard returns PLUS you want the receiver to get the emails in a pleasing manner, you truly should widen the email window to the width of the standard width and then make sure your returns lie within that width. That then is not silly but rather like you yourself making sure you are not writing over the edge of your letter. ---marlyse
Re(3): Need help finding features/functions
I think this is the exact point which hasn't fully been understood yet by the original poster - I believe he thinks that if it looks nice on HIS computer, it will arrive the same at some other computer. But this is not the case, exactly as Tim and others have tried to explain. Just because other mail programs fool you into believing you've wrapped something into something you like - and that is how it will look when arriving on all other email clients in the world - does not mean that PM is lacking; I'd rather say that PM is just more 'honest' here in the sense of not putting a fake eye candy ability into their interface. ---marlyse --- former message(s) quotes: On Sat, Nov 22, 2003 at 10:19 am -0700, tass wrote: As I mentioned earlier, this is my VERY first experience with NOT being able to decide how MY letter should look/read. And being used to that kind of basic freedom, it is not only annoying, it looks stupid at the other end and makes the writer look like an idiot - like they never even learned how to formulate a letter. Not to mention breaking links making that function of email useless. Well, as Wayne explained, it doesn't matter how nicely you format your email, you have no control over what various servers will do to it on its travels. (In fact, one of your recent posts to this list was obviously set to something like 120 chars, and arrived here broken into alternating short/long lines.)
Re(2): Need help finding features/functions
You know, several things in that most recent response either ignored what I wrote or deliberately obfuscated it (or you're just truly not understanding at all). It's obvious that any further discussion on this matter is not going to help any of us. Suffice it to say that I think you're incorrect in many of your assumptions about how to write in an electronic medium (and I'm not talking about emoticons and such -- when was that ever mentioned before? we weren't even discussing grammar or internet slang...). Your examples are ludicrous. A haiku on one line? Come on. Haiku is way under the 78-character line convention you're arguing against. No one has said anything about not being able to type a return where you want for that kind of effect, and PM or any other email client is not going to muck with something like that. All of us are only talking about lines over the limit and how some servers are going to screw them anyway. I really didn't mean to get you, or anyone else hot about the collar. You're really good at this assumption stuff. We're all trying to be helpful here, not argumentative or hot. Can no one disagree with you without being called religious, hot and other things? I thought this was a very civil discussion until now. If you like your text wrapped at 78, please, enjoy it. But why be so dead set on trying to deny me of, and convince me against my wanting to be able to send a nice letter that, should it be printed, will look like the letter I typed? And there is this obtuseness, deliberate or otherwise, which you're showing. Your email is NOT going to look like what you typed by the time we get it. End of argument. Make all the mentions of freedom that you wish, but we should be free from having to scroll your long lines, read choppy line lengths, and the like. PM is just handling all that before there's any chance your long lines will be chopped. And it all looks just fine, and it won't touch lines under the limit, so you can format to your heart's content with indents, and list bullets, and whatever. But we've all said this and several of us have demonstrated it, and somehow it's not clear. Oh well. Good luck with your search for an email client that will allow you to work as you wish, no matter what others might see when they get your mail. If you stick with PowerMail, I'm sure it will work for 95% of what you need in a mail client. If we raving zealots have put you off of it all now, I'm sure the pure text zealots of MailSmith or the non-database mail zealots of Eudora will be happy to help you. :) (You haven't seen true zealotry until you start trying to discuss HTML vs. Text email. :) Don't EVEN get that one started.) -- Michael Lewis Off Balance Productions [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.offbalance.com
Re(2): Need help finding features/functions
But that doesn't mean for a second that I shouldn't be able to do the best I can to try to offer them something, that should they want to print it, will look like anything less than the best that I can offer them. Tass, that's why we have PDFs. If you're that concerned about the appearance of what you're doing, send people PDFs attached to a mail. If you're attempting to use e-mail to create professional-looking business documents, you're going to be pounding your head against the wall for years to come. That's simply not what it's for, any more than the telephone is for listening to Beethoven symphonies. Michael Lewis has made some very good points. I get lots of really ugly, hard to read mail from people (customers) ironically because they have tried to make it look good. --- Scott T. Hards President HobbyLink Japan (www.hlj.com)
Re(2): Need help finding features/functions
Interesting points, Michael. But I'm not missing any of them.. On 11/23/03, Michael Lewis wrote: tass sez: Hey Chris. I've already said that it's obvious that one can't do much about what happens once it gets into replies. That's the way it goes. So be it. You're not reading and comprehending. It isn't just replies that will be munged when your perfect letter goes out. One more time: The servers your mail is being handled by could chop your email into pieces. And as I've said, of course this happens. But not until well beyond anywhere I've seen my mail show up. I get to view my own mail on many of my clients computers, not to mention seeing it quoted in their replies. Most often times it looks just like what I typed it as. So what ever those server breaks are, they are far beyond what I'm referring to or have experienced previously. What are normal letter length lines? 110 characters at 10-12pt type - not taking into account variations of funky fonts that range in size all over the place. But the basic Times, Courier, Arial, etc Are you trying to make email look like paper mail? Absolutely! Just because we have people nowadays showing up to job interviews with emoticons in their resume's, doesn't mean that the rest of us who have learned to type, compose a personal, or business letter should just throw away those proper forms. Sure, email is far more casual. And Lord knows I have precious little control over what someone else may do with it, or how they may choose to view it at their end. But that doesn't mean for a second that I shouldn't be able to do the best I can to try to offer them something, that should they want to print it, will look like anything less than the best that I can offer them. Proper letter writing hasn't quite yet gone completely out of fashion. So if I'm going to try to hang onto a convention, it will surely be to try to compose proper letters rather than conform to Telnet etiquette. [something about hitting returns] You don't need to hit returns. Just type, and PowerMail will take care of wrapping. Would that this were more than only partially true. PM, like a few other email clients I've tested will surely wrap it once it gets sent. But up until then, it doesn't activate or demonstrate the wrap so you can see what your document looks like BEFORE it goes. I'll hit the return key anytime, and anywhere I think it is appropriate to create a nicely formed letter. If the recipient has their window set so they can only see 25 characters wide, then their app will wrap accordingly or they'll have to deal with the horizontal scroll bar for their trouble. But for everyone else, it will appear just as I intended it to look. As for URLs, there should be NO problem with URLs if you put them in (angle brackets) -- if you cut and paste the URL, PowerMail will automatically use angle brackets. URLs in angle brackets should be double-clickable no matter the number of lines they take up. Some clients may not follow this standard, but that ain't PowerMail's fault. This one is hardly an issue. Someone explained the double click-a-link convention for Mac which I'm not yet used to. No prob. Just need to get acclimated to that one. Never had to deal with any brackets before though. Just simple copy/paste - done. I certainly didn't mean to incite such religious fervour over some long forgotten First off, I think you're making a mountain out of a molehill with this statement (besides starting to make it a bit more personal than it has been). I haven't seen any religious fervour. Just a statement of how things are; you're the one denying that it exists. OK. I admit; I did use a tad bit of exaggeration to make a point. How things are? Well, for about 9/10 of the world's modern computer users, how things are is you go into preferences find the proper tab or listing, and type in the number of characters that the program will wrap at. I've just learned today that there does exist a small minority of people that have heard of and are beating the drum soundly for, some old suggestion about how to deal with 13 monochrome, text only screens, that by today's standards is completely arbitrary. Why not 72? 85? 170? 31? There's no currently viable significance to that 78 that I can see. I bet you might be amazed by the number of folks over the years that did get some very ugly email from you I can promise you surely that this HAS happened. And you can also bet that most often when it did, it's because I typed it that way and chose to have it look so. To do it as you suggest, should I try to share a Haiku, it should just be one long string that happens to break up wherever the app thinks it should. :-) I just got done watching 2001: A Space Odyssey again for about the 168th time. Just reminded me once again how much I DON'T want my computers doing my
Re(2): Need help finding features/functions
tass sez: Hey Chris. I've already said that it's obvious that one can't do much about what happens once it gets into replies. That's the way it goes. So be it. You're not reading and comprehending. It isn't just replies that will be munged when your perfect letter goes out. One more time: The servers your mail is being handled by could chop your email into pieces. PowerMail just wraps to the standard before it goes out rather than letting you send out mail you THINK everyone is going to get as you design it. But some of them may not. Maybe the people you correspond with will never have mail arive through one of these servers. Maybe you never plan on corresponding with anyone who might not get your 120-character length lines, but if that's the case and PowerMail is really a bitch for you, then go with another program. And one last time, I'm not talking about endless strings of text. Just the normal letter length text lines that I, and millions of other people have been emailing for nigh on 10 years. What are normal letter length lines? Are you trying to make email look like paper mail? Email is not paper. Do your normal lines fit on my screen if I have my font set to 40-point bold monospaced letters because I have eye problems? Maybe I have a tiny font set? You have no control over what your letter looks like on my end, so you shouldn't even be trying. [something about hitting returns] You don't need to hit returns. It isn't a typewriter; you aren't pushing a lever at the end of each line and pushing the carriage back to the left edge of the paper. Just type, and PowerMail will take care of wrapping. The only time you should be hitting returns is for paragraphs or - when - making - a - list (And the last will only look good if you have a monospace font set for reading. It'll look great for my friends who still use amber dumb terminals attached to VAX systems.) As for URLs, there should be NO problem with URLs if you put them in (angle brackets) -- if you cut and paste the URL, PowerMail will automatically use angle brackets. URLs in angle brackets should be double-clickable no matter the number of lines they take up. Some clients may not follow this standard, but that ain't PowerMail's fault. I certainly didn't mean to incite such religious fervour over some long forgotten First off, I think you're making a mountain out of a molehill with this statement (besides starting to make it a bit more personal than it has been). I haven't seen any religious fervour. Just a statement of how things are; you're the one denying that it exists. Right, we get it. It's old tech. BMWs don't have cranks, and email should let us do whatever, and men shouldn't have nipples. Whatever. This is just the way it is, and that you've been shielded from it by other email clients doesn't mean there weren't some poor souls trying to make out email that looks like this because you've entered odd returns in some attempt to treat electronic writing like paper writing. I bet you might be amazed by the number of folks over the years that did get some very ugly email from you but never said anything because they figured it was your email program or the internet or even something they didn't understand mucking it all up. -- Michael Lewis Off Balance Productions [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.offbalance.com
Re(2): Need help finding features/functions
P.S. It'll be a long time until I get used to it, but I'm already trying to work on the command+right/left arrow thing. Thanks for that, and the rest of the other hints you guys gave. Have fun. ... big ol' snip :) Chris --
Re(2): Need help finding features/functions
As I mentioned earlier, this is my VERY first experience with NOT being able to decide how MY letter should look/read. And being used to that kind of basic freedom, it is not only annoying, it looks stupid at the other end and makes the writer look like an idiot - like they never even learned how to formulate a letter. Not to mention breaking links making that function of email useless. ... Simply put a function that allows the user to set their own word wrap and EVERYONE can be happy. My emails can look more professional, and you can set yours at 78 so it can look like a Chinese newspaper. I dunno. Do you ever get simple replies back to your e-mails that look like the above? How about this?: As I mentioned earlier, this is my VERY first experience with NOT being able to decide how MY letter should look/read. And being used to that kind of basic freedom, it is not only annoying, it looks stupid at the other end and makes the writer look like an idiot - like they never even learned how to formulate a letter. Not to mention breaking links making that function of email useless. ... Simply put a function that allows the user to set their own word wrap and EVERYONE can be happy. My emails can look more professional, and you can set yours at 78 so it can look like a Chinese newspaper. Quite frankly, unless _every_ e-mail client has a built-in feature that auto-rewraps quoting in the exact same way it was broken, you can never guarantee that what you sent will be received _as_ you sent it, e.g. a fictional 100-something character line length shown above. All it takes is one computer/program in the chain to muff it up. I'm sure there is software in use that is not updated because it does exactly what it's supposed to do. As it's not broke, its owners don't try to fix it. Now, it's broke to you, but just who is paying the cost to upgrade all this, possibly with new hardware, not just software, and troubleshoot it to its previous point of reliability? (The points previously mentioned about costs and the third world state of affairs were well made.) Also, the recipient can resize their windows and reflow the text as they please to yield what works for them, which - believe it or not - may be something better for them than your n-character ideal. LOL - I remember doing a t-shirt design once that I spent some time in choosing the right font, tweaking the letters, etc. Much later, after turning it in (I was just the design end of it), I heard that it had been _faxed_ to the company doing the silk-screening! All they wanted was the idea, then they went and recreated it. They chose different fonts - nothing even close to what I had used - and yes, it looked like crap. Maybe the option for fixing the line length should be in there; I wouldn't object to it. But I wouldn't put any money on it looking right on the other end. If looks are that important I'd send it PDF as an attachment. My two bits. :) Chris --
Re(2): Need help finding features/functions
Zach Selland [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Ok, here is something that I'm not getting in the whole email composition argument. And I'm not meaning to criticize anything, I'm just seeking clarification. Are you manually entering line-feeds in your paragraphs? For me, when I'm composing an email, PM simply breaks the lines according the current window width. The only time that I enter line-feeds (or carriage returns, or just plain returns, whatever you want to call them) is when I want to actually separate paragraphs visually. As far as I can tell, the program doesn't insert any hard wraps until the message is actually sent out. Kjell caused electrons to hula in cyberspace with: Yes, that's the correct way of composing a mail or any other text on a computer. And this standard goes way back. Even in those very old days when you used the electric typewriters and set the margins, you only entered returns where you ended paragraphs. And in the early text editing programs like Wylbur where you saw line numbers at the right, the only times you entered a carriage return where at the end of paragraphs. Midi
Re(2): Need help finding features/functions
Zach Selland [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Ok, here is something that I'm not getting in the whole email composition argument. And I'm not meaning to criticize anything, I'm just seeking clarification. Are you manually entering line-feeds in your paragraphs? For me, when I'm composing an email, PM simply breaks the lines according the current window width. The only time that I enter line-feeds (or carriage returns, or just plain returns, whatever you want to call them) is when I want to actually separate paragraphs visually. As far as I can tell, the program doesn't insert any hard wraps until the message is actually sent out. Yes, that's the correct way of composing a mail or any other text on a computer. -- Regards, Kjell Olausson http://www.kio.nu Alingsås, Sweden Umax Apus 2000|166MHz|OS 9.1|80MB/81MB WM CarbonLib 1.6|PM 4.2.1/10MB|3 Pane View AppleScript archives http://homepage.mac.com/wayneb/powermail.html Tim's PowerMail FAQ http://home.hpo.net/timm/PowerMailFAQ.html
Re(2): Need help finding features/functions
On 11/22/03, Zach Selland wrote: Ok, here is something that I'm not getting in the whole email composition argument. And I'm not meaning to criticize anything, I'm just seeking clarification. Are you manually entering line-feeds in your paragraphs? Absolutely. To do otherwise either relies on the program to break the line as you type, or for you to set the window width at exactly the point at which it will be broken when it gets sent. The first would be OK if that's all that can be done (but of course, that's just not true). But the second is just plain silly to expect the user to do that. And I've never minded typing in my own RETURN. In fact, that's exactly how I need it to be. I do know how to type, and to format a proper letter. And since we've had the ability to have our mail (e as-well-as snail) be presentable in more of a letter fashion (as proven by Outlook, Netscape, Eudora, Calypso, etc., etc., etc.,), to cling to some antiquated suggestion is ridiculous (again, as demonstrated by dozens of other email clients). For me, when I'm composing an email, PM simply breaks the lines according the current window width. The only time that I enter line-feeds (or carriage returns, or just plain returns, whatever you want to call them) is when I want to actually separate paragraphs visually. As far as I can tell, the program doesn't insert any hard wraps until the message is actually sent out. If you really need a real-time visual indication of how the email will eventually be wrapped, you could set your window width the the appropriate size. Anyway, if I'm totally missing any and all points here, my apologies :-) Cheers, Zach You're not missing anything Zach. You're right on point. The thing that has me baffled is that instead of people seeing that what I'm talking about is the freedom for everyone to write their mail as they see fit, whether they want to stick to a particular standard or would like to have their documents appear more letter-like, it has already been decided by the preponderance of the industry that it can, and should be their choice. Instead, the response I get is the villagers trying to beat me into submission to accept and conform to some old ideal that hasn't been ideal for more than 10 years. Think about that in computer terms. TEN years. In computer terms that's leeches and blood-lettings in a world that burns heretics for suggesting that the Earth might actually be round :-) Have fun, ht
Re(2): Need help finding features/functions
Ok, here is something that I'm not getting in the whole email composition argument. And I'm not meaning to criticize anything, I'm just seeking clarification. Are you manually entering line-feeds in your paragraphs? For me, when I'm composing an email, PM simply breaks the lines according the current window width. The only time that I enter line-feeds (or carriage returns, or just plain returns, whatever you want to call them) is when I want to actually separate paragraphs visually. As far as I can tell, the program doesn't insert any hard wraps until the message is actually sent out. If you really need a real-time visual indication of how the email will eventually be wrapped, you could set your window width the the appropriate size. Anyway, if I'm totally missing any and all points here, my apologies :-) Cheers, Zach -- Zach Selland Taylor Design Group Portland, OR www.taylordesigngroup.com On Sat, Nov 22, 2003, tass [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: And if an email client refuses to join with the rest of the world in the current convention (even if it hasn't yet been carved in stone by some secret society), they could at least have that wrap happen WHILE you're typing so you can see what your document will look like BEFORE it goes out and you look like a moron. Sure, once replies come into the picture, things change radically. But at least the original looked as intended.
Re(2): Need help finding features/functions
/// On 11/22/03, Tim Hodgson wrote: On Sat, Nov 22, 2003 at 10:19 am -0700, tass wrote: As I mentioned earlier, this is my VERY first experience with NOT being able to decide how MY letter should look/read. And being used to that kind of basic freedom, it is not only annoying, it looks stupid at the other end and makes the writer look like an idiot - like they never even learned how to formulate a letter. Not to mention breaking links making that function of email useless. Well, as Wayne explained, it doesn't matter how nicely you format your email, you have no control over what various servers will do to it on its travels. (In fact, one of your recent posts to this list was obviously set to something like 120 chars, and arrived here broken into alternating short/long lines.) TimH Hey Tim. That's my whole point. Those breaks weren't done down the line, those lines were broken by PowerMail as it went out. Ever since I've now been trying it out, my emails have been showing up like a grocery list everywhere they go. And it looks like, well, crud Sure, at some point the lines get ridiculous and they have to get cropped. But we're not talking about some newbie that can't remember to EVER hit the return key - just normal letter styled writing since we now have the technology to have our communications look proper again - and since it's NOT a new idea. As I said, PowerMail is my FIRST in 9 years of running across this problem. And if an email client refuses to join with the rest of the world in the current convention (even if it hasn't yet been carved in stone by some secret society), they could at least have that wrap happen WHILE you're typing so you can see what your document will look like BEFORE it goes out and you look like a moron. Sure, once replies come into the picture, things change radically. But at least the original looked as intended. Have fun, ht
Re(2): Need help finding features/functions
On Sat, Nov 22, 2003 at 10:19 am -0700, tass wrote: As I mentioned earlier, this is my VERY first experience with NOT being able to decide how MY letter should look/read. And being used to that kind of basic freedom, it is not only annoying, it looks stupid at the other end and makes the writer look like an idiot - like they never even learned how to formulate a letter. Not to mention breaking links making that function of email useless. Well, as Wayne explained, it doesn't matter how nicely you format your email, you have no control over what various servers will do to it on its travels. (In fact, one of your recent posts to this list was obviously set to something like 120 chars, and arrived here broken into alternating short/long lines.) TimH
Re(2): Need help finding features/functions
On 11/22/03, Leonard Morgenstern wrote: On 11/21/03 9:27 AM tass wrote: We can wish for something better and agitate for it, but I don't see it coming soon. Nobody will change until everybody does. It wouldn't do any good for, say, Earthlink to use it alone. However, if Earthlink, Microsoft, AOL, and the other biggies got together and changed all their software (and maybe hardware), the smaller fry would have to go along. Len -- Hi Len. Not to beat this horse too much, but I do have to say that I'm really surprised to see so much support for something that makes so little sense that it has been left behind by every other email client I've ever used. Mind you, I'm new to Mac. So I can't say how many different clients have never kept up with the rest of the world in this camp. I do remember in my recent trials at least two or three of the bunch of Mac email clients that were modern in this sense, but failed me in other ways. But every, and I do mean EVERY email client I've every used, tried, tested for the past 9 years on either M$ or Linux platforms has, as one of the most basic features, the ability of the user to set the word wrap as they need it to be. As I mentioned earlier, this is my VERY first experience with NOT being able to decide how MY letter should look/read. And being used to that kind of basic freedom, it is not only annoying, it looks stupid at the other end and makes the writer look like an idiot - like they never even learned how to formulate a letter. Not to mention breaking links making that function of email useless. I'm sorry folks; I can't see this as anything but akin to having an engine crank on the front of a BMW Z3 for no better reason than there used to be one the Model T. The fact is, you guys are scaring me a bit. What is the function here? That the User must conform to some established norm that hasn't held water for years, or that products, services, technology, and yes, even standards serve the needs of the customer/user? If it's the former, then I really have to question where this attitude comes from when the whole of the Mac world was introduced with the promise of the NON conformity declared in the 1984 Super Bowl ad. Or did I just blink? It sounds like placating the lowest common denominator is good, and keeping up with quality is wrong. Sounds more like excuses than reasons. I just don't get where this could possibly be coming from. Simply put a function that allows the user to set their own word wrap and EVERYONE can be happy. My emails can look more professional, and you can set yours at 78 so it can look like a Chinese newspaper. :-) Have fun, ht
Re(2): Need help finding features/functions
On 11/21/03 9:27 AM tass wrote: The rest of the internet? Who are they? They are us! And standards aren't what some back-room consortium of techno-geeks says they are. Standards are what is standard for a given industry or culture. And this standard is so old that hearing about it is actually new to me. Again, no M$ lover, I. But a quick thought overnight? We're talking TWENTY ONE YEARS and (technologically) lifetimes ago!! Dear tass and others who commented on this problem: There is an analogy here with the typewriter. The QWERTY keyboard was designed many decades ago (far more distant in the past than the 78- character line) in order to SLOW typing so the keys would not jam. Soon, improved design obviated the problem, but QUERTY did not change. Over 60 years ago, the Dvorak keyboard made it possible for first-year typing students to pound out 60 words a minute, which is close to a professional level. Still QWERTY did not change. It's the standard despite its deficiencies. Today, you can make your keyboard a Dvorak with a free download, but how many do? Would you? See http://www.mwbrooks.com/dvorak/ That's why 78-character lines are still the standard, whether or not you and I like it. We can wish for something better and agitate for it, but I don't see it coming soon. Nobody will change until everybody does. It wouldn't do any good for, say, Earthlink to use it alone. However, if Earthlink, Microsoft, AOL, and the other biggies got together and changed all their software (and maybe hardware), the smaller fry would have to go along. Len -- Leonard Morgenstern [EMAIL PROTECTED] If something looks simple but hasn't been done, maybe it isn't as simple as it looks
