Re: [NF] Suggestions for high school kid wanting to get into programming
Tell him to get into sales instead. That's where the real money is. LOL Do you really want to give your nephew 30 years of. "why does it cost so much?" "I can buy Quickbooks for under $300, why are you charging me $2000?" "I've never heard of Foxpro, can't you use a Microsoft product?" --- MB Software Solutions <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > My nephew saw a project I'm working on (in VFP9 of > course!) and really > got excited about what I do. He wants to learn > programming. I'm > looking for recommendations on where he might go to > get a good > fundamental basis for programming (via websites or > books). > > tia! > > -- > Michael J. Babcock, MCP > MB Software Solutions, LLC > http://mbsoftwaresolutions.com > http://fabmate.com > "Work smarter, not harder, with MBSS custom software > solutions!" > > > > ___ > Post Messages to: ProFox@leafe.com > Subscription Maintenance: > http://leafe.com/mailman/listinfo/profox > OT-free version of this list: > http://leafe.com/mailman/listinfo/profoxtech > Searchable Archive: > http://leafe.com/archives/search/profox > This message: > http://leafe.com/archives/byMID/profox/[EMAIL PROTECTED] > ** All postings, unless explicitly stated otherwise, > are the opinions of the author, and do not > constitute legal or medical advice. This statement > is added to the messages for those lawyers who are > too stupid to see the obvious. > ___ Post Messages to: ProFox@leafe.com Subscription Maintenance: http://leafe.com/mailman/listinfo/profox OT-free version of this list: http://leafe.com/mailman/listinfo/profoxtech Searchable Archive: http://leafe.com/archives/search/profox This message: http://leafe.com/archives/byMID/profox/[EMAIL PROTECTED] ** All postings, unless explicitly stated otherwise, are the opinions of the author, and do not constitute legal or medical advice. This statement is added to the messages for those lawyers who are too stupid to see the obvious.
RE: [NF] Suggestions for high school kid wanting to get into programming
If he has Visual Studio, then he can work in that for a place to program in. I would suggest that he could start programming in HTML and make a website to get a basic start of it, and then work upwards from there. Here is a good site for him to look at for HTML: http://www.w3schools.com/html/default.asp Computer Technology Solutions Mike Wohlrab President 585-944-3823 [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.MikeWohlrab.com FTP://MikeWohlrab.com -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of MB Software Solutions Sent: Sunday, July 08, 2007 3:05 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [NF] Suggestions for high school kid wanting to get into programming My nephew saw a project I'm working on (in VFP9 of course!) and really got excited about what I do. He wants to learn programming. I'm looking for recommendations on where he might go to get a good fundamental basis for programming (via websites or books). tia! -- Michael J. Babcock, MCP MB Software Solutions, LLC http://mbsoftwaresolutions.com http://fabmate.com "Work smarter, not harder, with MBSS custom software solutions!" [excessive quoting removed by server] ___ Post Messages to: ProFox@leafe.com Subscription Maintenance: http://leafe.com/mailman/listinfo/profox OT-free version of this list: http://leafe.com/mailman/listinfo/profoxtech Searchable Archive: http://leafe.com/archives/search/profox This message: http://leafe.com/archives/byMID/profox/!&[EMAIL PROTECTED] ** All postings, unless explicitly stated otherwise, are the opinions of the author, and do not constitute legal or medical advice. This statement is added to the messages for those lawyers who are too stupid to see the obvious.
Re: [NF] Suggestions for high school kid wanting to get into programming
Michael Madigan wrote: > Tell him to get into sales instead. That's where the > real money is. LOL > Yeah, I did want to point out the outsourcing to him. > Do you really want to give your nephew 30 years of. > "why does it cost so much?" "I can buy Quickbooks for > under $300, why are you charging me $2000?" "I've > never heard of Foxpro, can't you use a Microsoft > product?" > All sad but true, and the last one made me LOL! I'm sure that's true of being said also at some time in the past! (Was that said to you?) -- Michael J. Babcock, MCP MB Software Solutions, LLC http://mbsoftwaresolutions.com http://fabmate.com "Work smarter, not harder, with MBSS custom software solutions!" ___ Post Messages to: ProFox@leafe.com Subscription Maintenance: http://leafe.com/mailman/listinfo/profox OT-free version of this list: http://leafe.com/mailman/listinfo/profoxtech Searchable Archive: http://leafe.com/archives/search/profox This message: http://leafe.com/archives/byMID/profox/[EMAIL PROTECTED] ** All postings, unless explicitly stated otherwise, are the opinions of the author, and do not constitute legal or medical advice. This statement is added to the messages for those lawyers who are too stupid to see the obvious.
Re: [NF] Suggestions for high school kid wanting to get into programming
Mike Wohlrab wrote: > If he has Visual Studio, then he can work in that for a place to program in. I > would suggest that he could start programming in HTML and make a website to > get > a basic start of it, and then work upwards from there. Here is a good site for > him to look at for HTML: http://www.w3schools.com/html/default.asp > That's exactly the site I mentioned to him. No, he doesn't have anything. He's just taking an interest now and starting from scratch. I know that I had a programming class starting my Junior year in high school. -- Michael J. Babcock, MCP MB Software Solutions, LLC http://mbsoftwaresolutions.com http://fabmate.com "Work smarter, not harder, with MBSS custom software solutions!" ___ Post Messages to: ProFox@leafe.com Subscription Maintenance: http://leafe.com/mailman/listinfo/profox OT-free version of this list: http://leafe.com/mailman/listinfo/profoxtech Searchable Archive: http://leafe.com/archives/search/profox This message: http://leafe.com/archives/byMID/profox/[EMAIL PROTECTED] ** All postings, unless explicitly stated otherwise, are the opinions of the author, and do not constitute legal or medical advice. This statement is added to the messages for those lawyers who are too stupid to see the obvious.
RE: [NF] Suggestions for high school kid wanting to get into programming
My daughter (27 w/ three kids and a husband in Iraq) is learning VB.net. I started teaching her vfp, just to teach her the logic of programming, but I decided to steer her toward vb.net because of the number of potential employers. John -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Michael Madigan Sent: Sunday, July 08, 2007 2:14 PM To: ProFox Email List Subject: Re: [NF] Suggestions for high school kid wanting to get into programming Tell him to get into sales instead. That's where the real money is. LOL Do you really want to give your nephew 30 years of. "why does it cost so much?" "I can buy Quickbooks for under $300, why are you charging me $2000?" "I've never heard of Foxpro, can't you use a Microsoft product?" --- MB Software Solutions <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > My nephew saw a project I'm working on (in VFP9 of > course!) and really > got excited about what I do. He wants to learn > programming. I'm > looking for recommendations on where he might go to > get a good > fundamental basis for programming (via websites or > books). > > tia! > > -- > Michael J. Babcock, MCP > MB Software Solutions, LLC > http://mbsoftwaresolutions.com > http://fabmate.com > "Work smarter, not harder, with MBSS custom software > solutions!" > > > > ___ > Post Messages to: ProFox@leafe.com > Subscription Maintenance: > http://leafe.com/mailman/listinfo/profox > OT-free version of this list: > http://leafe.com/mailman/listinfo/profoxtech > Searchable Archive: > http://leafe.com/archives/search/profox > This message: > http://leafe.com/archives/byMID/profox/[EMAIL PROTECTED] com > ** All postings, unless explicitly stated otherwise, > are the opinions of the author, and do not > constitute legal or medical advice. This statement > is added to the messages for those lawyers who are > too stupid to see the obvious. > [excessive quoting removed by server] ___ Post Messages to: ProFox@leafe.com Subscription Maintenance: http://leafe.com/mailman/listinfo/profox OT-free version of this list: http://leafe.com/mailman/listinfo/profoxtech Searchable Archive: http://leafe.com/archives/search/profox This message: http://leafe.com/archives/byMID/profox/[EMAIL PROTECTED]@shelbynet.com ** All postings, unless explicitly stated otherwise, are the opinions of the author, and do not constitute legal or medical advice. This statement is added to the messages for those lawyers who are too stupid to see the obvious.
RE: [NF] Suggestions for high school kid wanting to get into programming
> -Original Message- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > On Behalf Of MB Software Solutions > Sent: Sunday, July 08, 2007 12:05 PM > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subject: [NF] Suggestions for high school kid wanting to get into > programming > > My nephew saw a project I'm working on (in VFP9 of course!) and really > got excited about what I do. He wants to learn programming. I'm > looking for recommendations on where he might go to get a good > fundamental basis for programming (via websites or books). > > tia! > > -- > Michael J. Babcock, MCP > MB Software Solutions, LLC > http://mbsoftwaresolutions.com > http://fabmate.com > "Work smarter, not harder, with MBSS custom software solutions!" > Michael: When my daughter wanted to learn a language, I had her learn FoxPro because there was a job for it working for her dad. I learned Assembler, BASIC and FORTRAN in school but never used them (BASIC was in its original form used to teach people FORTRAN). I learned CPM because of the Commodore 64. I learned COBOL, RPG, and Business BASIC for jobs that I took. I started my own business with QuickBasic and rewrote the application in FoxPro. I have been using FoxPro for 16 years now. When I learned FoxPro I thought it was the best language I have ever used. I still feel for what I am doing it still is the very best. It is easy to code, frameworks available, easy to implement at multiple sites, looks great and runs great. In the last three or four years I have had to add features to my applications that required third-party libraries. I have been using West Wind almost exclusively because they don't require registering with the OS. This adds complexity and quite a bit of code. Many of my applications pull XML from a web site. My FoxPro code requires West Wind to get the job done. Email notifications is another example. Python on the other hand requires 4 lines of code to do the same thing - natively. You may or may not have heard this but "Python just works". Native Python does everything and the syntax is very easy to use and understand. There are hundreds of frameworks that help target Python to a particular problem - like Dabo. You can do database access natively in Python, but Ed and Paul have developed a framework that makes it even easier. This doesn't apply to your nephew, but their framework makes it easy for FoxPro people to do Python. Dabo also wraps wxpython and provides a very consistent interface to the GUI - something us FoxPro people are used to. >From someone that has programmed in many languages for over 35 years I think Python is the best thing going right now. I would recommend it to beginners and experienced FoxPro programmers. It is like FoxPro and BASIC before it in that it reminds me of the ocean. You can bob around on the surface and be very happy. You can also delve into the depths of the water. Jeff Jeff Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] 623-582-0323 Fax 623-869-0675 --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/signed text/plain (text body -- kept) application/x-pkcs7-signature --- ___ Post Messages to: ProFox@leafe.com Subscription Maintenance: http://leafe.com/mailman/listinfo/profox OT-free version of this list: http://leafe.com/mailman/listinfo/profoxtech Searchable Archive: http://leafe.com/archives/search/profox This message: http://leafe.com/archives/byMID/profox/[EMAIL PROTECTED] ** All postings, unless explicitly stated otherwise, are the opinions of the author, and do not constitute legal or medical advice. This statement is added to the messages for those lawyers who are too stupid to see the obvious.
Re: [NF] Suggestions for high school kid wanting to get into programming
On Jul 8, 2007, at 3:05 PM, MB Software Solutions wrote: > My nephew saw a project I'm working on (in VFP9 of course!) and really > got excited about what I do. He wants to learn programming. I'm > looking for recommendations on where he might go to get a good > fundamental basis for programming (via websites or books). I second Jeff's comments about Python. It is much more general- purpose than VFP, in that you can do stuff that has nothing to do with data at all, and you aren't tied to a single platform. One of the guys in our user group writes a lot of the embedded logic for Xerox's machines in Python that runs on some custom OS used for those circuit boards. Sure, you can do desktop apps with Dabo, but you can also do web apps just as easily. You can write shell scripts easier in Python than in bash, sh or zsh, and Python code is so much easier to read than Perl. The software that is used for this list is written in Python, as is SpamBayes and BitTorrent. IOW, the possibilities are endless. That is extremely important to someone starting out. It would be a very bad move to limit oneself to a single vendor or a single platform. -- Ed Leafe -- http://leafe.com -- http://dabodev.com ___ Post Messages to: ProFox@leafe.com Subscription Maintenance: http://leafe.com/mailman/listinfo/profox OT-free version of this list: http://leafe.com/mailman/listinfo/profoxtech Searchable Archive: http://leafe.com/archives/search/profox This message: http://leafe.com/archives/byMID/profox/[EMAIL PROTECTED] ** All postings, unless explicitly stated otherwise, are the opinions of the author, and do not constitute legal or medical advice. This statement is added to the messages for those lawyers who are too stupid to see the obvious.
RE: [NF] Suggestions for high school kid wanting to get into programming
www.gamedev.net Should keep him quiet for a while. Regards Michael Hawksworth > -Original Message- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:profoxtech- > [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of MB Software Solutions > Sent: 08 July 2007 20:05 > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subject: [NF] Suggestions for high school kid wanting to get into > programming > > My nephew saw a project I'm working on (in VFP9 of course!) and really > got excited about what I do. He wants to learn programming. I'm > looking for recommendations on where he might go to get a good > fundamental basis for programming (via websites or books). > > tia! > > -- > Michael J. Babcock, MCP > MB Software Solutions, LLC > http://mbsoftwaresolutions.com > http://fabmate.com > "Work smarter, not harder, with MBSS custom software solutions!" > > > [excessive quoting removed by server] ___ Post Messages to: ProFox@leafe.com Subscription Maintenance: http://leafe.com/mailman/listinfo/profox OT-free version of this list: http://leafe.com/mailman/listinfo/profoxtech Searchable Archive: http://leafe.com/archives/search/profox This message: http://leafe.com/archives/byMID/profox/[EMAIL PROTECTED] ** All postings, unless explicitly stated otherwise, are the opinions of the author, and do not constitute legal or medical advice. This statement is added to the messages for those lawyers who are too stupid to see the obvious.
Re: [NF] Suggestions for high school kid wanting to get into programming
Mike Wohlrab wrote: > If he has Visual Studio, then he can work in that for a place to program in. I > would suggest that he could start programming in HTML > HTML is a markup language for describing layout surely, as opposed to being a programming language? I think starting out in development by tackling something like ASP.NET or PHP or whatever is possibly too much of a learning curve. You have to know about all the web design side, plus how web servers work to some extent, and so on. I'd get him started writing little apps and games in RealBASIC or something. He can get results onscreen quickly. That's the important thing. ___ Post Messages to: ProFox@leafe.com Subscription Maintenance: http://leafe.com/mailman/listinfo/profox OT-free version of this list: http://leafe.com/mailman/listinfo/profoxtech Searchable Archive: http://leafe.com/archives/search/profox This message: http://leafe.com/archives/byMID/profox/[EMAIL PROTECTED] ** All postings, unless explicitly stated otherwise, are the opinions of the author, and do not constitute legal or medical advice. This statement is added to the messages for those lawyers who are too stupid to see the obvious.
Re: [NF] Suggestions for high school kid wanting to get into programming
I've heard good things about the Zend Studio Framework, and php seem to be a hot language right now. http://www.zend.com/products/zend_studio Also, Activestate's Komodo editor and perl seem popular. http://www.activestate.com/Products/komodo_ide/ Both of these choices provide the basics such as: 1) Project Management. 2) Version Control. 3) Good editors with a full set of features to improve productivity. 4) Method to package application for distribution including protection of the source code. 5) Plenty of emphasis on applications that run over the Internet. Regards, LelandJ Alan Bourke wrote: > Mike Wohlrab wrote: > >> If he has Visual Studio, then he can work in that for a place to program in. >> I >> would suggest that he could start programming in HTML >> >> > > HTML is a markup language for describing layout surely, as opposed to > being a programming language? > > I think starting out in development by tackling something like ASP.NET > or PHP or whatever is possibly too much of a learning curve. You have to > know about all the web design side, plus how web servers work to some > extent, and so on. > > I'd get him started writing little apps and games in RealBASIC or > something. He can get results onscreen quickly. That's the important thing. > > > [excessive quoting removed by server] ___ Post Messages to: ProFox@leafe.com Subscription Maintenance: http://leafe.com/mailman/listinfo/profox OT-free version of this list: http://leafe.com/mailman/listinfo/profoxtech Searchable Archive: http://leafe.com/archives/search/profox This message: http://leafe.com/archives/byMID/profox/[EMAIL PROTECTED] ** All postings, unless explicitly stated otherwise, are the opinions of the author, and do not constitute legal or medical advice. This statement is added to the messages for those lawyers who are too stupid to see the obvious.
Re: [NF] Suggestions for high school kid wanting to get into programming
Leland F. Jackson, CPA wrote: > I've heard good things about the Zend Studio Framework, and php seem to > be a hot language right now. > > http://www.zend.com/products/zend_studio > > Also, Activestate's Komodo editor and perl seem popular. > > http://www.activestate.com/Products/komodo_ide/ > > Both of these choices provide the basics such as: > > 1) Project Management. > 2) Version Control. > 3) Good editors with a full set of features to improve productivity. > 4) Method to package application for distribution including protection > of the source code. > 5) Plenty of emphasis on applications that run over the Internet. > All that might be well and good, but again, this kid is BRAND NEW to programming and so many of these things are not meant for him at this time. Just basic programming principles needed. Heck, we were taught using Pascal years ago. And I think that was a great learning language. -- Michael J. Babcock, MCP MB Software Solutions, LLC http://mbsoftwaresolutions.com http://fabmate.com "Work smarter, not harder, with MBSS custom software solutions!" ___ Post Messages to: ProFox@leafe.com Subscription Maintenance: http://leafe.com/mailman/listinfo/profox OT-free version of this list: http://leafe.com/mailman/listinfo/profoxtech Searchable Archive: http://leafe.com/archives/search/profox This message: http://leafe.com/archives/byMID/profox/[EMAIL PROTECTED] ** All postings, unless explicitly stated otherwise, are the opinions of the author, and do not constitute legal or medical advice. This statement is added to the messages for those lawyers who are too stupid to see the obvious.
Re: [NF] Suggestions for high school kid wanting to get into programming
http://www.lazarus.freepascal.org/ Free. Open sourced. Cross platform. -Kevin CULLY Technologies, LLC Sponsor of FoxForward 2007 foxforward.net MB Software Solutions wrote: > Heck, we were taught using Pascal years ago. And I think that was a great > learning language. > ___ Post Messages to: ProFox@leafe.com Subscription Maintenance: http://leafe.com/mailman/listinfo/profox OT-free version of this list: http://leafe.com/mailman/listinfo/profoxtech Searchable Archive: http://leafe.com/archives/search/profox This message: http://leafe.com/archives/byMID/profox/[EMAIL PROTECTED] ** All postings, unless explicitly stated otherwise, are the opinions of the author, and do not constitute legal or medical advice. This statement is added to the messages for those lawyers who are too stupid to see the obvious.
Re: [NF] Suggestions for high school kid wanting to get into programming
Someone just getting started in programming today has a lot to learn, and the best way I know to put someone on the right path is with a structured approach that covers the basic five things I mentioned. If someone new got started with VFP, for example, they would have Project Management, Version Control, the vfp language, the vfp database, a good editor, a method to package, distribute and protect the source code, etc. With web based development thing get a little more complicated as several language must be mastered and merged within an application like html, css, xml, javascript, perl, php, python, java, etc. Also, the appropriate editor must be mastered. The individual modules, classes, graphics, icons, etc must be managed within the overall project. Then there is the OS and the web server to learn. A framework like vfp, Activestate perl pro studio, and Zend Studio can be very helpful for the beginner in getting everything put together in a structure way, as well as for learning best practices in program development. Such tool are a necessity for the career programmer. If not threatened by vendor lock, a newbie could get started with the dot.net framework, which has everything already built in. Regards, LelandJ MB Software Solutions wrote: > Leland F. Jackson, CPA wrote: > >> I've heard good things about the Zend Studio Framework, and php seem to >> be a hot language right now. >> >> http://www.zend.com/products/zend_studio >> >> Also, Activestate's Komodo editor and perl seem popular. >> >> http://www.activestate.com/Products/komodo_ide/ >> >> Both of these choices provide the basics such as: >> >> 1) Project Management. >> 2) Version Control. >> 3) Good editors with a full set of features to improve productivity. >> 4) Method to package application for distribution including protection >> of the source code. >> 5) Plenty of emphasis on applications that run over the Internet. >> >> > All that might be well and good, but again, this kid is BRAND NEW to > programming and so many of these things are not meant for him at this > time. Just basic programming principles needed. Heck, we were taught > using Pascal years ago. And I think that was a great learning language. > > ___ Post Messages to: ProFox@leafe.com Subscription Maintenance: http://leafe.com/mailman/listinfo/profox OT-free version of this list: http://leafe.com/mailman/listinfo/profoxtech Searchable Archive: http://leafe.com/archives/search/profox This message: http://leafe.com/archives/byMID/profox/[EMAIL PROTECTED] ** All postings, unless explicitly stated otherwise, are the opinions of the author, and do not constitute legal or medical advice. This statement is added to the messages for those lawyers who are too stupid to see the obvious.
Re: [NF] Suggestions for high school kid wanting to get into programming
On Jul 9, 2007, at 11:21 AM, Leland F. Jackson, CPA wrote: > Someone just getting started in programming today has a lot to learn, > and the best way I know to put someone on the right path is with a > structured approach that covers the basic five things I mentioned. Not necessarily. It is way too easy to confuse and overwhelm someone by throwing too much at them at once. You learn math by adding, counting, etc., before you even are exposed to things such as multiplication and division, which, while certainly critical for anyone to be considered mathematically literate, are simply too complex until one grasps the basics. Learn condtionals. Learn looping. Learn variables. Learn procedures/ subroutines. Then once you have those things down and are comfortable with them, you can begin to get into more advanced concepts such as version control, packaging, etc. -- Ed Leafe -- http://leafe.com -- http://dabodev.com ___ Post Messages to: ProFox@leafe.com Subscription Maintenance: http://leafe.com/mailman/listinfo/profox OT-free version of this list: http://leafe.com/mailman/listinfo/profoxtech Searchable Archive: http://leafe.com/archives/search/profox This message: http://leafe.com/archives/byMID/profox/[EMAIL PROTECTED] ** All postings, unless explicitly stated otherwise, are the opinions of the author, and do not constitute legal or medical advice. This statement is added to the messages for those lawyers who are too stupid to see the obvious.
Re: [NF] Suggestions for high school kid wanting to get into programming.
I agree with Leland. Except for people in kindergarten, learning the ABCs does not make sense. It takes a few seconds to learn to do a FOR NEXT loop, but that is not really programming. Really modular code is not something I see on a regular basis. Mike Yearwood ___ Post Messages to: ProFox@leafe.com Subscription Maintenance: http://leafe.com/mailman/listinfo/profox OT-free version of this list: http://leafe.com/mailman/listinfo/profoxtech Searchable Archive: http://leafe.com/archives/search/profox This message: http://leafe.com/archives/byMID/profox/[EMAIL PROTECTED] ** All postings, unless explicitly stated otherwise, are the opinions of the author, and do not constitute legal or medical advice. This statement is added to the messages for those lawyers who are too stupid to see the obvious.
Re: [NF] Suggestions for high school kid wanting to get into programming
Ed Leafe wrote: > On Jul 9, 2007, at 11:21 AM, Leland F. Jackson, CPA wrote: > > >> Someone just getting started in programming today has a lot to learn, >> and the best way I know to put someone on the right path is with a >> structured approach that covers the basic five things I mentioned. >> > > Not necessarily. It is way too easy to confuse and overwhelm someone > by throwing too much at them at once. You learn math by adding, > counting, etc., before you even are exposed to things such as > multiplication and division, which, while certainly critical for > anyone to be considered mathematically literate, are simply too > complex until one grasps the basics. > > Learn condtionals. Learn looping. Learn variables. Learn procedures/ > subroutines. Then once you have those things down and are comfortable > with them, you can begin to get into more advanced concepts such as > version control, packaging, etc. > > Bingo. That's my point. -- Michael J. Babcock, MCP MB Software Solutions, LLC http://mbsoftwaresolutions.com http://fabmate.com "Work smarter, not harder, with MBSS custom software solutions!" ___ Post Messages to: ProFox@leafe.com Subscription Maintenance: http://leafe.com/mailman/listinfo/profox OT-free version of this list: http://leafe.com/mailman/listinfo/profoxtech Searchable Archive: http://leafe.com/archives/search/profox This message: http://leafe.com/archives/byMID/profox/[EMAIL PROTECTED] ** All postings, unless explicitly stated otherwise, are the opinions of the author, and do not constitute legal or medical advice. This statement is added to the messages for those lawyers who are too stupid to see the obvious.
Re: [NF] Suggestions for high school kid wanting to get into programming.
Mike yearwood wrote: > I agree with Leland. Except for people in kindergarten, learning the > ABCs does not make sense. It takes a few seconds to learn to do a FOR > NEXT loop, but that is not really programming. > > Really modular code is not something I see on a regular basis. > > Mike Yearwood > I respectfully disagree! Fundamentals are the building blocks that must be learned/known before proceeding to language specifics. Remember his first goal will be to learn how to program, not necessarily how to package and deploy and version control. That would overwhelm most any beginner, imo. -- Michael J. Babcock, MCP MB Software Solutions, LLC http://mbsoftwaresolutions.com http://fabmate.com "Work smarter, not harder, with MBSS custom software solutions!" ___ Post Messages to: ProFox@leafe.com Subscription Maintenance: http://leafe.com/mailman/listinfo/profox OT-free version of this list: http://leafe.com/mailman/listinfo/profoxtech Searchable Archive: http://leafe.com/archives/search/profox This message: http://leafe.com/archives/byMID/profox/[EMAIL PROTECTED] ** All postings, unless explicitly stated otherwise, are the opinions of the author, and do not constitute legal or medical advice. This statement is added to the messages for those lawyers who are too stupid to see the obvious.
Re: [NF] Suggestions for high school kid wanting to get into programming
On 7/8/07, MB Software Solutions <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > My nephew saw a project I'm working on (in VFP9 of course!) and really > got excited about what I do. He wants to learn programming. I'm > looking for recommendations on where he might go to get a good > fundamental basis for programming (via websites or books). You don't necessarily need or want to start someone off by loading them down with heavy computer science theory, or a whole bunch of complex and intimidating tools. It's boring. While it's intended for much younger kids, StarLogo [1] can be a great way to establish some of the basic ideas of logic, logic flow, analysis and architecture. After that, a simple, interactive language that can be used from the command-line is the way a lot of us learned, and has it's advantages. PRINT "Hello, World!" gives immediate feedback, the satisfaction of getting the machine to work. Python, Pascal and FoxPro all will do a bit of this. [1] http://education.mit.edu/starlogo/ -- Ted Roche Ted Roche & Associates, LLC http://www.tedroche.com ___ Post Messages to: ProFox@leafe.com Subscription Maintenance: http://leafe.com/mailman/listinfo/profox OT-free version of this list: http://leafe.com/mailman/listinfo/profoxtech Searchable Archive: http://leafe.com/archives/search/profox This message: http://leafe.com/archives/byMID/profox/[EMAIL PROTECTED] ** All postings, unless explicitly stated otherwise, are the opinions of the author, and do not constitute legal or medical advice. This statement is added to the messages for those lawyers who are too stupid to see the obvious.
Re: [NF] Suggestions for high school kid wanting to get into programming.
> Message: 4 > Date: Mon, 09 Jul 2007 11:58:08 -0400 > From: MB Software Solutions <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Subject: Re: [NF] Suggestions for high school kid wanting to getinto >programming. > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > Mike yearwood wrote: > > I agree with Leland. Except for people in kindergarten, learning the > > ABCs does not make sense. It takes a few seconds to learn to do a FOR > > NEXT loop, but that is not really programming. > > > > Really modular code is not something I see on a regular basis. > > > > Mike Yearwood > > > > I respectfully disagree! Fundamentals are the building blocks that must > be learned/known before proceeding to language specifics. Remember his > first goal will be to learn how to program, not necessarily how to > package and deploy and version control. That would overwhelm most any > beginner, imo. Learning the alphabet is often considered a building block, but is not a fundamental block necessary for speaking. Pronounciation is also a fundamental building block, yet a small child is often physically incapable of pronouncing many sounds. My point was that a fundamental aspect of programming - modularization - is lost by giving someone a "grounding" in the language. They learn that a program is a single monolithic procedure instead of a set of discrete building blocks. ___ Post Messages to: ProFox@leafe.com Subscription Maintenance: http://leafe.com/mailman/listinfo/profox OT-free version of this list: http://leafe.com/mailman/listinfo/profoxtech Searchable Archive: http://leafe.com/archives/search/profox This message: http://leafe.com/archives/byMID/profox/[EMAIL PROTECTED] ** All postings, unless explicitly stated otherwise, are the opinions of the author, and do not constitute legal or medical advice. This statement is added to the messages for those lawyers who are too stupid to see the obvious.
Re: [NF] Suggestions for high school kid wanting to get into programming.
On Jul 9, 2007, at 12:21 PM, Mike yearwood wrote: > My point was that a fundamental aspect of programming - modularization > - is lost by giving someone a "grounding" in the language. They learn > that a program is a single monolithic procedure instead of a set of > discrete building blocks. I don't think that follows. A "hello world" level program better damn well be a single block. Then when they advance to more complex programs, the notion of functions/subroutines come into play. Nobody should ever teach them that all programs are single monolithic procedures. -- Ed Leafe -- http://leafe.com -- http://dabodev.com ___ Post Messages to: ProFox@leafe.com Subscription Maintenance: http://leafe.com/mailman/listinfo/profox OT-free version of this list: http://leafe.com/mailman/listinfo/profoxtech Searchable Archive: http://leafe.com/archives/search/profox This message: http://leafe.com/archives/byMID/profox/[EMAIL PROTECTED] ** All postings, unless explicitly stated otherwise, are the opinions of the author, and do not constitute legal or medical advice. This statement is added to the messages for those lawyers who are too stupid to see the obvious.
Re: [NF] Suggestions for high school kid wanting to get into programming
Ted Roche wrote: > You don't necessarily need or want to start someone off by loading > them down with heavy computer science theory, or a whole bunch of > complex and intimidating tools. It's boring. Agree 100% - unless they're enrolled in a college course in which case they have set their stall out and declared that they WANT to learn all the heavy design theory and so on. For a kid starting out just let them hack away in a simple OO language, until they find out if they *really* want to be a programmer. ___ Post Messages to: ProFox@leafe.com Subscription Maintenance: http://leafe.com/mailman/listinfo/profox OT-free version of this list: http://leafe.com/mailman/listinfo/profoxtech Searchable Archive: http://leafe.com/archives/search/profox This message: http://leafe.com/archives/byMID/profox/[EMAIL PROTECTED] ** All postings, unless explicitly stated otherwise, are the opinions of the author, and do not constitute legal or medical advice. This statement is added to the messages for those lawyers who are too stupid to see the obvious.
Re: [NF] Suggestions for high school kid wanting to get into programming.
Mike yearwood wrote: > Learning the alphabet is often considered a building block, but is not > a fundamental block necessary for speaking. Pronounciation is also a > fundamental building block, yet a small child is often physically > incapable of pronouncing many sounds. > > My point was that a fundamental aspect of programming - modularization > - is lost by giving someone a "grounding" in the language. They learn > that a program is a single monolithic procedure instead of a set of > discrete building blocks. > > > Someone who has a Computer Science degree may not be any better of a programmer than one who has had less formal education, to be sure, but, if they paid attention, the CS degree person should understand the fundamentals of WHY things happen as they do and perhaps write better code as a result of that understanding. In this day/age where space is cheap/plentiful and bandwidth is becoming more available, you don't have to squeeze performance anymore as much due to these advances in hardware. The anal retentive side of me still prefers to do a CLI instead of a CLC when only comparing one bytefiguratively speaking. (Those who know Assembler will get that one.) Do I want to micromanage details like garbage collection? Nothat's why I prefer VFP instead of C++. I guess my point to this rambling is this: while we want to not have to worry about the mundane details of the fundamentals of programming, it's still good to understand the concepts and hopefully it leads to better programming. I'm reminded of a front page FoxTalk article from years ago where the author (I think Doug Hennig) had talked about this routine that ran thousands and thousands of lines of code in a small amount of time. He noted that it was awesome that Fox could do that, but also noted that the original coder had coded it sloppily---it didn't HAVE to do all that but instead could have been done much better. Yet the speed of the Fox masked his "inefficiency." -- Michael J. Babcock, MCP MB Software Solutions, LLC http://mbsoftwaresolutions.com http://fabmate.com "Work smarter, not harder, with MBSS custom software solutions!" ___ Post Messages to: ProFox@leafe.com Subscription Maintenance: http://leafe.com/mailman/listinfo/profox OT-free version of this list: http://leafe.com/mailman/listinfo/profoxtech Searchable Archive: http://leafe.com/archives/search/profox This message: http://leafe.com/archives/byMID/profox/[EMAIL PROTECTED] ** All postings, unless explicitly stated otherwise, are the opinions of the author, and do not constitute legal or medical advice. This statement is added to the messages for those lawyers who are too stupid to see the obvious.
Re: [NF] Suggestions for high school kid wanting to get into programming
Can't the basics to which you referred be learned within the framework, or as a subset of the languages used by the framework? For example perl, python, php, java, c#, or pick your own. Regards, LelandJ Ed Leafe wrote: > On Jul 9, 2007, at 11:21 AM, Leland F. Jackson, CPA wrote: > > >> Someone just getting started in programming today has a lot to learn, >> and the best way I know to put someone on the right path is with a >> structured approach that covers the basic five things I mentioned. >> > > Not necessarily. It is way too easy to confuse and overwhelm someone > by throwing too much at them at once. You learn math by adding, > counting, etc., before you even are exposed to things such as > multiplication and division, which, while certainly critical for > anyone to be considered mathematically literate, are simply too > complex until one grasps the basics. > > Learn condtionals. Learn looping. Learn variables. Learn procedures/ > subroutines. Then once you have those things down and are comfortable > with them, you can begin to get into more advanced concepts such as > version control, packaging, etc. > > -- Ed Leafe > -- http://leafe.com > -- http://dabodev.com > > > > [excessive quoting removed by server] ___ Post Messages to: ProFox@leafe.com Subscription Maintenance: http://leafe.com/mailman/listinfo/profox OT-free version of this list: http://leafe.com/mailman/listinfo/profoxtech Searchable Archive: http://leafe.com/archives/search/profox This message: http://leafe.com/archives/byMID/profox/[EMAIL PROTECTED] ** All postings, unless explicitly stated otherwise, are the opinions of the author, and do not constitute legal or medical advice. This statement is added to the messages for those lawyers who are too stupid to see the obvious.
Re: [NF] Suggestions for high school kid wanting to get into programming
On Jul 9, 2007, at 12:48 PM, Leland F. Jackson, CPA wrote: > Can't the basics to which you referred be learned within the > framework, > or as a subset of the languages used by the framework? For example > perl, python, php, java, c#, or pick your own. It is the imposition of a framework that is the problem. There is just so much stuff that comes along with mega environments that newbies can get overwhelmed by. My choice is a command-line terminal. Hell, if you have a problem typing commands, you've just saved yourself a lot of grief, since programming obviously isn't for you! -- Ed Leafe -- http://leafe.com -- http://dabodev.com ___ Post Messages to: ProFox@leafe.com Subscription Maintenance: http://leafe.com/mailman/listinfo/profox OT-free version of this list: http://leafe.com/mailman/listinfo/profoxtech Searchable Archive: http://leafe.com/archives/search/profox This message: http://leafe.com/archives/byMID/profox/[EMAIL PROTECTED] ** All postings, unless explicitly stated otherwise, are the opinions of the author, and do not constitute legal or medical advice. This statement is added to the messages for those lawyers who are too stupid to see the obvious.
Re: [NF] Suggestions for high school kid wanting to get into programming
If you have a framework, you can build small programs or test code and save them in a project for easy retrieval the next day or week. Then you can add functionality a little at a time. Also, the framework usually provide example code, templates, and help files to get someone going in a hurry. A command window is fine, but limited, as the code go away when the window is closed. I believe its better to have test/learn code in a file that can be run and debugged. Regards, LelandJ Ed Leafe wrote: > On Jul 9, 2007, at 12:48 PM, Leland F. Jackson, CPA wrote: > > >> Can't the basics to which you referred be learned within the >> framework, >> or as a subset of the languages used by the framework? For example >> perl, python, php, java, c#, or pick your own. >> > > It is the imposition of a framework that is the problem. There is > just so much stuff that comes along with mega environments that > newbies can get overwhelmed by. > > My choice is a command-line terminal. Hell, if you have a problem > typing commands, you've just saved yourself a lot of grief, since > programming obviously isn't for you! > > -- Ed Leafe > -- http://leafe.com > -- http://dabodev.com > > > > [excessive quoting removed by server] ___ Post Messages to: ProFox@leafe.com Subscription Maintenance: http://leafe.com/mailman/listinfo/profox OT-free version of this list: http://leafe.com/mailman/listinfo/profoxtech Searchable Archive: http://leafe.com/archives/search/profox This message: http://leafe.com/archives/byMID/profox/[EMAIL PROTECTED] ** All postings, unless explicitly stated otherwise, are the opinions of the author, and do not constitute legal or medical advice. This statement is added to the messages for those lawyers who are too stupid to see the obvious.
Re: [NF] Suggestions for high school kid wanting to get into programming
Leland F. Jackson, CPA wrote: > If you have a framework, you can build small programs or test code and > save them in a project for easy retrieval the next day or week. Then > you can add functionality a little at a time. Also, the framework > usually provide example code, templates, and help files to get someone > going in a hurry. A command window is fine, but limited, as the code > go away when the window is closed. I believe its better to have > test/learn code in a file that can be run and debugged. > Leland Thats's very true but at least in VFP, with the PM, you can do as you say - build small programs, test code etc - WITHOUT any framework. Paul Newton ___ Post Messages to: ProFox@leafe.com Subscription Maintenance: http://leafe.com/mailman/listinfo/profox OT-free version of this list: http://leafe.com/mailman/listinfo/profoxtech Searchable Archive: http://leafe.com/archives/search/profox This message: http://leafe.com/archives/byMID/profox/[EMAIL PROTECTED] ** All postings, unless explicitly stated otherwise, are the opinions of the author, and do not constitute legal or medical advice. This statement is added to the messages for those lawyers who are too stupid to see the obvious.
Re: [NF] Suggestions for high school kid wanting to get into programming
On Jul 9, 2007, at 1:47 PM, Paul Newton wrote: > Thats's very true but at least in VFP, with the PM, you can do as you > say - build small programs, test code etc - WITHOUT any framework. And what command line doesn't have a way to edit and save files? -- Ed Leafe -- http://leafe.com -- http://dabodev.com ___ Post Messages to: ProFox@leafe.com Subscription Maintenance: http://leafe.com/mailman/listinfo/profox OT-free version of this list: http://leafe.com/mailman/listinfo/profoxtech Searchable Archive: http://leafe.com/archives/search/profox This message: http://leafe.com/archives/byMID/profox/[EMAIL PROTECTED] ** All postings, unless explicitly stated otherwise, are the opinions of the author, and do not constitute legal or medical advice. This statement is added to the messages for those lawyers who are too stupid to see the obvious.
Re: [NF] Suggestions for high school kid wanting to get into programming
The command line provides a way to open a files, create code in the file, and save the file, but with a framework the name and path of the file is also saved for later use. Then a project can be opened within the framework that shows a tree view pane holding folders and files that expand a collapse for easily retrieval of a file. Regards, LelandJ Ed Leafe wrote: > On Jul 9, 2007, at 1:47 PM, Paul Newton wrote: > > >> Thats's very true but at least in VFP, with the PM, you can do as you >> say - build small programs, test code etc - WITHOUT any framework. >> > > And what command line doesn't have a way to edit and save files? > > -- Ed Leafe > -- http://leafe.com > -- http://dabodev.com > > > > [excessive quoting removed by server] ___ Post Messages to: ProFox@leafe.com Subscription Maintenance: http://leafe.com/mailman/listinfo/profox OT-free version of this list: http://leafe.com/mailman/listinfo/profoxtech Searchable Archive: http://leafe.com/archives/search/profox This message: http://leafe.com/archives/byMID/profox/[EMAIL PROTECTED] ** All postings, unless explicitly stated otherwise, are the opinions of the author, and do not constitute legal or medical advice. This statement is added to the messages for those lawyers who are too stupid to see the obvious.
Re: [NF] Suggestions for high school kid wanting to get into programming
Leland F. Jackson, CPA wrote: > The command line provides a way to open a files, create code in the > file, and save the file, but with a framework the name and path of the > file is also saved for later use. Leland The name and path of the file is saved for later use with the PM even without a framework ... Paul Newton > Then a project can be opened within > the framework that shows a tree view pane holding folders and files that > expand a collapse for easily retrieval of a file. > ___ Post Messages to: ProFox@leafe.com Subscription Maintenance: http://leafe.com/mailman/listinfo/profox OT-free version of this list: http://leafe.com/mailman/listinfo/profoxtech Searchable Archive: http://leafe.com/archives/search/profox This message: http://leafe.com/archives/byMID/profox/[EMAIL PROTECTED] ** All postings, unless explicitly stated otherwise, are the opinions of the author, and do not constitute legal or medical advice. This statement is added to the messages for those lawyers who are too stupid to see the obvious.
Re: [NF] Suggestions for high school kid wanting to get into programming
Paul Newton wrote: > Leland F. Jackson, CPA wrote: > >> If you have a framework, you can build small programs or test code and >> save them in a project for easy retrieval the next day or week. Then >> you can add functionality a little at a time. Also, the framework >> usually provide example code, templates, and help files to get someone >> going in a hurry. A command window is fine, but limited, as the code >> go away when the window is closed. I believe its better to have >> test/learn code in a file that can be run and debugged. >> >> > Leland > > Thats's very true but at least in VFP, with the PM, you can do as you > say - build small programs, test code etc - WITHOUT any framework. > > To me, frameworks are great for not "reinventing the wheel"--however, for brand newbies to programming (like my nephew), they at least need to understand what goes into making that wheel to some extent, imo, and the framework short-circuits that learning. Again...to me, it's all about the fundamentals. -- Michael J. Babcock, MCP MB Software Solutions, LLC http://mbsoftwaresolutions.com http://fabmate.com "Work smarter, not harder, with MBSS custom software solutions!" ___ Post Messages to: ProFox@leafe.com Subscription Maintenance: http://leafe.com/mailman/listinfo/profox OT-free version of this list: http://leafe.com/mailman/listinfo/profoxtech Searchable Archive: http://leafe.com/archives/search/profox This message: http://leafe.com/archives/byMID/profox/[EMAIL PROTECTED] ** All postings, unless explicitly stated otherwise, are the opinions of the author, and do not constitute legal or medical advice. This statement is added to the messages for those lawyers who are too stupid to see the obvious.
Re: [NF] Suggestions for high school kid wanting to get into programming
Leland F. Jackson, CPA wrote: > The command line provides a way to open a files, create code in the > file, and save the file, but with a framework the name and path of the > file is also saved for later use. Then a project can be opened within > the framework that shows a tree view pane holding folders and files that > expand a collapse for easily retrieval of a file. > > Regards, > > LelandJ > I think you're thinking at too high a level for what the goal is here: to help a kid learn how to be a programmer. Eventually, after he's learned to program, he can learn about things beyond programming, like systems design, optimizations, etc. iow, we need to teach him to be a Programmer Level I, not a Programmer Level 3 or a Systems Analyst, to use the industry terms for jobs/positions. -- Michael J. Babcock, MCP MB Software Solutions, LLC http://mbsoftwaresolutions.com http://fabmate.com "Work smarter, not harder, with MBSS custom software solutions!" ___ Post Messages to: ProFox@leafe.com Subscription Maintenance: http://leafe.com/mailman/listinfo/profox OT-free version of this list: http://leafe.com/mailman/listinfo/profoxtech Searchable Archive: http://leafe.com/archives/search/profox This message: http://leafe.com/archives/byMID/profox/[EMAIL PROTECTED] ** All postings, unless explicitly stated otherwise, are the opinions of the author, and do not constitute legal or medical advice. This statement is added to the messages for those lawyers who are too stupid to see the obvious.
Re: [NF] Suggestions for high school kid wanting to get into programming
Within the vfp framework you can work in the command window or you can open a file and work with it. As a matter of fact, if you want to work in vfp, you have no choice but to work within the framework. I have seen many a newbie advised that vfp is the way to go for fast, easy learning, so why does everything change when I talk about frameworks that work with perl, php, java, c#, etc. ? Regards, LelandJ MB Software Solutions wrote: > Paul Newton wrote: > >> Leland F. Jackson, CPA wrote: >> >> >>> If you have a framework, you can build small programs or test code and >>> save them in a project for easy retrieval the next day or week. Then >>> you can add functionality a little at a time. Also, the framework >>> usually provide example code, templates, and help files to get someone >>> going in a hurry. A command window is fine, but limited, as the code >>> go away when the window is closed. I believe its better to have >>> test/learn code in a file that can be run and debugged. >>> >>> >>> >> Leland >> >> Thats's very true but at least in VFP, with the PM, you can do as you >> say - build small programs, test code etc - WITHOUT any framework. >> >> >> > > To me, frameworks are great for not "reinventing the wheel"--however, > for brand newbies to programming (like my nephew), they at least need to > understand what goes into making that wheel to some extent, imo, and the > framework short-circuits that learning. Again...to me, it's all about > the fundamentals. > > ___ Post Messages to: ProFox@leafe.com Subscription Maintenance: http://leafe.com/mailman/listinfo/profox OT-free version of this list: http://leafe.com/mailman/listinfo/profoxtech Searchable Archive: http://leafe.com/archives/search/profox This message: http://leafe.com/archives/byMID/profox/[EMAIL PROTECTED] ** All postings, unless explicitly stated otherwise, are the opinions of the author, and do not constitute legal or medical advice. This statement is added to the messages for those lawyers who are too stupid to see the obvious.
Re: [NF] Suggestions for high school kid wanting to get into programming
Leland F. Jackson, CPA wrote: > Within the vfp framework you can work in the command window or you can > open a file and work with it. As a matter of fact, if you want to work > in vfp, you have no choice but to work within the framework. I have > seen many a newbie advised that vfp is the way to go for fast, easy > learning, so why does everything change when I talk about frameworks > that work with perl, php, java, c#, etc. ? > > I'm not necessarily advocating VFP...hope it didn't come across that way. If the other frameworks are like VFP, then great. I thought you were talking about Add-On frameworks like VFE, MereMortals, CodeMine, etc. etc. etc.that's the stuff I was referring to staying away from for a kid brand new to programming. iow, I don't want him to rely on Wizards and the like to get an understanding of the fundamentals. I think too many have learned that way and I think it hinders them when real trouble strikes and they can't figure it out because they've always relied on the Wizards. It all depends on the abstraction level. Someone at the VFP team level (low level, raw C++) views me perhaps that way like a view someone who uses a framework add on beyond VFP like I mentioned. -- Michael J. Babcock, MCP MB Software Solutions, LLC http://mbsoftwaresolutions.com http://fabmate.com "Work smarter, not harder, with MBSS custom software solutions!" ___ Post Messages to: ProFox@leafe.com Subscription Maintenance: http://leafe.com/mailman/listinfo/profox OT-free version of this list: http://leafe.com/mailman/listinfo/profoxtech Searchable Archive: http://leafe.com/archives/search/profox This message: http://leafe.com/archives/byMID/profox/[EMAIL PROTECTED] ** All postings, unless explicitly stated otherwise, are the opinions of the author, and do not constitute legal or medical advice. This statement is added to the messages for those lawyers who are too stupid to see the obvious.
Re: [NF] Suggestions for high school kid wanting to get into programming
This reminds me of a high school kid who was an MVP for Visual Basic 5 or 6. Mondo Smart, could assimilate everything in front of his eyeballs, etc etc. Did you make any time to study toe ACM curricula guide for the core first two years of the computer science curricula ? If not, you should, as most ABET certified CompSci degree plans follow this curricula. A nice hard long lesson (imo) would be to study the first 200K line of the linux os source code, and back-learn everything presented, and get an understanding of WHY and HOW the code works. OTOH, if he just wants to knock out business applications, I can't think of a single thing wrong with plunking him down with VFP and the TakeNote Technologies v6 curricula (not free, btw) and turning him loose with it. But - there's 'learning' and then there's 'self-taught' - which route did you think he wanted to take? There's a lot to be said for instructor-led classroom lectures, and most of the compsci folk here took that 'classic' approach to learning about programming. Course, there's the math element as well - why bother to learn SQL-based algebra if you don't understand set theory ? Why learn how to compute confidence intervals via code if you don't know what one is or how to use it? Those are just examples, I would mostly stick with VFP as the assimilation time is minimal for non-programming types. Regards [Bill] ___ Post Messages to: ProFox@leafe.com Subscription Maintenance: http://leafe.com/mailman/listinfo/profox OT-free version of this list: http://leafe.com/mailman/listinfo/profoxtech Searchable Archive: http://leafe.com/archives/search/profox This message: http://leafe.com/archives/byMID/profox/[EMAIL PROTECTED] ** All postings, unless explicitly stated otherwise, are the opinions of the author, and do not constitute legal or medical advice. This statement is added to the messages for those lawyers who are too stupid to see the obvious.
Re: [NF] Suggestions for high school kid wanting to get into programming
>If you have a framework, you can build small programs or test code and >save them in a project for easy retrieval the next day or week. Then >you can add functionality a little at a time. Also, the framework >usually provide example code, templates, and help files to get someone >going in a hurry. A command window is fine, but limited, as the code >go away when the window is closed. I believe its better to have >test/learn code in a file that can be run and debugged. When I was trying to learn C++ I was fortunate to have Visual Studio 6.0 to work in. Compared to VFP, the stuff you need for meaningful C++ work is so much more scattered (separate files for libraries, templates, classes, etc.), and virtually none of it is available unless expressly included in your program. Not to mention the lack of anything like the Command Window. (Though I did like the fact that the debugger could see not only my code but "all the way to the bottom" of the standard libraries.) Without that framework organizing it all for me I don't think I would have coped as long as I did (I had an online "tutor" working with me, but he was obsessed with math, which I hate--I mean, really, who cares about Fibonacci sequences?; and I completely lost it when things started getting to the "pointers to pointers to pointers" stage). So maybe the complexity of the programming language one is going to learn determines the value of having a framework or IDE to work with. And for developers interested in business applications rather than low-level I/O manipulation, there's got to be a better way to teach people than by making them fight with trig and advanced algebra. Ken Dibble www.stic-cil.org ___ Post Messages to: ProFox@leafe.com Subscription Maintenance: http://leafe.com/mailman/listinfo/profox OT-free version of this list: http://leafe.com/mailman/listinfo/profoxtech Searchable Archive: http://leafe.com/archives/search/profox This message: http://leafe.com/archives/byMID/profox/[EMAIL PROTECTED] ** All postings, unless explicitly stated otherwise, are the opinions of the author, and do not constitute legal or medical advice. This statement is added to the messages for those lawyers who are too stupid to see the obvious.
Re: [NF] Suggestions for high school kid wanting to get into programming
Foxpro IDE??? Leland F. Jackson, CPA wrote: > If you have a framework, you can build small programs or test code and > save them in a project for easy retrieval the next day or week. Then > you can add functionality a little at a time. Also, the framework > usually provide example code, templates, and help files to get someone > going in a hurry. A command window is fine, but limited, as the code > go away when the window is closed. I believe its better to have > test/learn code in a file that can be run and debugged. > > Regards, > > LelandJ > > > ___ Post Messages to: ProFox@leafe.com Subscription Maintenance: http://leafe.com/mailman/listinfo/profox OT-free version of this list: http://leafe.com/mailman/listinfo/profoxtech Searchable Archive: http://leafe.com/archives/search/profox This message: http://leafe.com/archives/byMID/profox/[EMAIL PROTECTED] ** All postings, unless explicitly stated otherwise, are the opinions of the author, and do not constitute legal or medical advice. This statement is added to the messages for those lawyers who are too stupid to see the obvious.
Re: [NF] Suggestions for high school kid wanting to get into programming
And view all variables and how they interact/react to the code, etc. Paul Newton wrote: > Leland F. Jackson, CPA wrote: > >> If you have a framework, you can build small programs or test code and >> save them in a project for easy retrieval the next day or week. Then >> you can add functionality a little at a time. Also, the framework >> usually provide example code, templates, and help files to get someone >> going in a hurry. A command window is fine, but limited, as the code >> go away when the window is closed. I believe its better to have >> test/learn code in a file that can be run and debugged. >> >> > Leland > > Thats's very true but at least in VFP, with the PM, you can do as you > say - build small programs, test code etc - WITHOUT any framework. > > Paul Newton > > [excessive quoting removed by server] ___ Post Messages to: ProFox@leafe.com Subscription Maintenance: http://leafe.com/mailman/listinfo/profox OT-free version of this list: http://leafe.com/mailman/listinfo/profoxtech Searchable Archive: http://leafe.com/archives/search/profox This message: http://leafe.com/archives/byMID/profox/[EMAIL PROTECTED] ** All postings, unless explicitly stated otherwise, are the opinions of the author, and do not constitute legal or medical advice. This statement is added to the messages for those lawyers who are too stupid to see the obvious.
Re: [NF] Suggestions for high school kid wanting to get into programming
Ken Dibble wrote: > I mean, really, who cares about Fibonacci > sequences? Havn't you read/seen The Da Vinci Code? :-) That's the first time I'd heard of Fibonacci since university. Peter ___ Post Messages to: ProFox@leafe.com Subscription Maintenance: http://leafe.com/mailman/listinfo/profox OT-free version of this list: http://leafe.com/mailman/listinfo/profoxtech Searchable Archive: http://leafe.com/archives/search/profox This message: http://leafe.com/archives/byMID/profox/[EMAIL PROTECTED] ** All postings, unless explicitly stated otherwise, are the opinions of the author, and do not constitute legal or medical advice. This statement is added to the messages for those lawyers who are too stupid to see the obvious.
Re: [NF] Suggestions for high school kid wanting to get into programming
On Tue, 10 Jul 2007 11:53:41 +0100, "Peter Cushing" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> said: > Havn't you read/seen The Da Vinci Code? :-) That's the first time > I'd heard of Fibonacci since university. Fibonacci was also bandied around quite a lot in the whole chaos theory / fractals thing in the early to mid 90's. -- Alan Bourke [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Post Messages to: ProFox@leafe.com Subscription Maintenance: http://leafe.com/mailman/listinfo/profox OT-free version of this list: http://leafe.com/mailman/listinfo/profoxtech Searchable Archive: http://leafe.com/archives/search/profox This message: http://leafe.com/archives/byMID/profox/[EMAIL PROTECTED] ** All postings, unless explicitly stated otherwise, are the opinions of the author, and do not constitute legal or medical advice. This statement is added to the messages for those lawyers who are too stupid to see the obvious.
Re: [NF] Suggestions for high school kid wanting to get into programming
On 7/10/07, Alan Bourke <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > On Tue, 10 Jul 2007 11:53:41 +0100, "Peter Cushing" > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> said: > > > Havn't you read/seen The Da Vinci Code? :-) That's the first time > > I'd heard of Fibonacci since university. > > Fibonacci was also bandied around quite a lot in the whole chaos theory > / fractals thing in the early to mid 90's. 'Fibonacci Delta compression' is used as a crude technique for compressing 8bit audio samples down to (IIRC) 4 bit. You use Fibonacci numbers to store the difference between the current sample and the next one. -- Paul ___ Post Messages to: ProFox@leafe.com Subscription Maintenance: http://leafe.com/mailman/listinfo/profox OT-free version of this list: http://leafe.com/mailman/listinfo/profoxtech Searchable Archive: http://leafe.com/archives/search/profox This message: http://leafe.com/archives/byMID/profox/[EMAIL PROTECTED] ** All postings, unless explicitly stated otherwise, are the opinions of the author, and do not constitute legal or medical advice. This statement is added to the messages for those lawyers who are too stupid to see the obvious.
Re: [NF] Suggestions for high school kid wanting to get into programming
Yeah, what is the proper term to use these days for a development tool that provides an editor, project/file manager, compiler, a set of OO classes, revision control system that allow collaboration between members of the development team, version control, installer, etc. Microsoft refers to dot.net/Visual Studio as a framework, so to the extent vfp provides essentially everything Visual Studio does, I referred to vfp as a framework. I'm not quit sure what the difference is between an IDE and a Framework. Regards, LelandJ Chet Gardiner wrote: > Foxpro IDE??? > > Leland F. Jackson, CPA wrote: > >> If you have a framework, you can build small programs or test code and >> save them in a project for easy retrieval the next day or week. Then >> you can add functionality a little at a time. Also, the framework >> usually provide example code, templates, and help files to get someone >> going in a hurry. A command window is fine, but limited, as the code >> go away when the window is closed. I believe its better to have >> test/learn code in a file that can be run and debugged. >> >> Regards, >> >> LelandJ >> >> >> >> > > [excessive quoting removed by server] ___ Post Messages to: ProFox@leafe.com Subscription Maintenance: http://leafe.com/mailman/listinfo/profox OT-free version of this list: http://leafe.com/mailman/listinfo/profoxtech Searchable Archive: http://leafe.com/archives/search/profox This message: http://leafe.com/archives/byMID/profox/[EMAIL PROTECTED] ** All postings, unless explicitly stated otherwise, are the opinions of the author, and do not constitute legal or medical advice. This statement is added to the messages for those lawyers who are too stupid to see the obvious.
Re: [NF] Suggestions for high school kid wanting to get into programming
On 7/8/07, MB Software Solutions <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > My nephew saw a project I'm working on (in VFP9 of course!) and really > got excited about what I do. He wants to learn programming. Rather than answer with all of our personal agendas, perhaps we should ask questions, instead. How old is your nephew? Which grade is he in? What are his other interests? Is he on the math team and AV team? What's your impression of his nerd quotient? Kids today are using computers from birth, so the fact that he's in high school before he indicates an interest in computers is an interesting data point. What's his math and music proficiency? What was it about the application that got him excited? Was it the screen design? Perhaps he's more of a UI designer than a programmer - a very valuable and very different profession. > I'm > looking for recommendations on where he might go to get a good > fundamental basis for programming (via websites or books). There are a huge number of resources available, most for free. I'd suggest you can help him focus in on what he wants to learn and find a good tool to start him with, just as you help clients to narrow their requirements. -- Ted Roche Ted Roche & Associates, LLC http://www.tedroche.com ___ Post Messages to: ProFox@leafe.com Subscription Maintenance: http://leafe.com/mailman/listinfo/profox OT-free version of this list: http://leafe.com/mailman/listinfo/profoxtech Searchable Archive: http://leafe.com/archives/search/profox This message: http://leafe.com/archives/byMID/profox/[EMAIL PROTECTED] ** All postings, unless explicitly stated otherwise, are the opinions of the author, and do not constitute legal or medical advice. This statement is added to the messages for those lawyers who are too stupid to see the obvious.
Re: [NF] Suggestions for high school kid wanting to get into programming
Leland F. Jackson, CPA wrote: > Yeah, what is the proper term to use these days for a development tool > that provides an editor, project/file manager, compiler, a set of OO > classes, revision control system that allow collaboration between > members of the development team, version control, installer, etc. > Microsoft refers to dot.net/Visual Studio as a framework, so to the > extent vfp provides essentially everything Visual Studio does, I > referred to vfp as a framework. I'm not quit sure what the difference > is between an IDE and a Framework. > I take your point, Leland Paul Newton ___ Post Messages to: ProFox@leafe.com Subscription Maintenance: http://leafe.com/mailman/listinfo/profox OT-free version of this list: http://leafe.com/mailman/listinfo/profoxtech Searchable Archive: http://leafe.com/archives/search/profox This message: http://leafe.com/archives/byMID/profox/[EMAIL PROTECTED] ** All postings, unless explicitly stated otherwise, are the opinions of the author, and do not constitute legal or medical advice. This statement is added to the messages for those lawyers who are too stupid to see the obvious.
Re: [NF] Suggestions for high school kid wanting to get into programming
On Jul 10, 2007, at 8:46 AM, Leland F. Jackson, CPA wrote: > I'm not quit sure what the difference is between an IDE and a > Framework. VFP is actually two products. There is the engine and the IDE. You do realize that you can create *any* VFP app without the VFP IDE, right? Any app you can create using the visual tools available in the IDE can be written entirely using a plain text editor. It is the VFP engine that takes PRG code, or VCX/SCX/etc. binaries and compiles them into a runnable app. The VFP IDE is a set of tools designed to make coding easier, by providing features such as visual design tools, syntax-colored editors, project managers, etc. None of these are required to create VFP apps, but I doubt anyone would want to develop without them. A framework is a base set of code that manages the common parts of any application. In the VFP world there is Codebook, VMP, VFE, etc. Each of these provides basic application services as well as a general approach to creating your specific forms, menus, etc. They can be thought of as a coding guideline for constructing your app, with a lot of the tedious grunt work already done for you. -- Ed Leafe -- http://leafe.com -- http://dabodev.com ___ Post Messages to: ProFox@leafe.com Subscription Maintenance: http://leafe.com/mailman/listinfo/profox OT-free version of this list: http://leafe.com/mailman/listinfo/profoxtech Searchable Archive: http://leafe.com/archives/search/profox This message: http://leafe.com/archives/byMID/profox/[EMAIL PROTECTED] ** All postings, unless explicitly stated otherwise, are the opinions of the author, and do not constitute legal or medical advice. This statement is added to the messages for those lawyers who are too stupid to see the obvious.
Re: [NF] Suggestions for high school kid wanting to get into programming
> On Jul 10, 2007, at 8:46 AM, Leland F. Jackson, CPA wrote: > > >> I'm not quit sure what the difference is between an IDE and a >> Framework. >> A framework provides you with 'scaffolding', an empty shell of an application. An IDE is just a bunch of helpful development tools centralised in one application. After that you're on your own when it comes to creating an application. ___ Post Messages to: ProFox@leafe.com Subscription Maintenance: http://leafe.com/mailman/listinfo/profox OT-free version of this list: http://leafe.com/mailman/listinfo/profoxtech Searchable Archive: http://leafe.com/archives/search/profox This message: http://leafe.com/archives/byMID/profox/[EMAIL PROTECTED] ** All postings, unless explicitly stated otherwise, are the opinions of the author, and do not constitute legal or medical advice. This statement is added to the messages for those lawyers who are too stupid to see the obvious.
RE: [NF] Suggestions for high school kid wanting to get into programming
>> Microsoft refers to dot.net/Visual Studio as a framework<< Common misconception. .NET is the framework of classes, Visual Studio is the IDE to develop .NET based apps. You can build .NET apps without Visual Studio (using an alternative IDE), but you need the .NET framework installed to run a .NET application. Rick White Light Computing, Inc. www.whitelightcomputing.com www.swfox.net www.rickschummer.com ___ Post Messages to: ProFox@leafe.com Subscription Maintenance: http://leafe.com/mailman/listinfo/profox OT-free version of this list: http://leafe.com/mailman/listinfo/profoxtech Searchable Archive: http://leafe.com/archives/search/profox This message: http://leafe.com/archives/byMID/profox/[EMAIL PROTECTED] ** All postings, unless explicitly stated otherwise, are the opinions of the author, and do not constitute legal or medical advice. This statement is added to the messages for those lawyers who are too stupid to see the obvious.
Re: [NF] Suggestions for high school kid wanting to get into programming
>>> Microsoft refers to dot.net/Visual Studio as a framework<< >>> > > Yet another example of operator overloading by MS! > You can build .NET apps without Visual Studio (using an alternative IDE), You can build them with Notepad if you want! ___ Post Messages to: ProFox@leafe.com Subscription Maintenance: http://leafe.com/mailman/listinfo/profox OT-free version of this list: http://leafe.com/mailman/listinfo/profoxtech Searchable Archive: http://leafe.com/archives/search/profox This message: http://leafe.com/archives/byMID/profox/[EMAIL PROTECTED] ** All postings, unless explicitly stated otherwise, are the opinions of the author, and do not constitute legal or medical advice. This statement is added to the messages for those lawyers who are too stupid to see the obvious.
Re: [NF] Suggestions for high school kid wanting to get into programming
I guess that makes VFP both an IDE and a framework, since VFP provide everything dot.net and Visual Studio provide, but with better integration. For example, VFP provides the OO classes and runtime engine as the Framework, and VFP provides the editor, project management, source code protection, installer, etc as the IDE. VFP also provides RAD by putting the language, database, and drag and drop WSISUG tools in a tightly integrated nutshell. VFP has its advantages, but Microsoft tended to focus more and the VFP disadvantages of: 1) VFP maintained a statefull connection between the GUI clients and the database tables to which they connected, which is not good over a slow Internet, and the industry was moving away from desktop apps towards web based apps like java, php, perl, python, etc. 2) VFP required the runtime be included with the GUI client, where most OS(s) provide a browser by default. 3) VFP engine used lots of memory, did not automatically manage garbage collection, and ran in an statefull event loop, which was great for a local network over NetBIOS, but not good over the Internets TCP/IP network. 4) VFP was NOT a big money magnet for the folks at Microsoft, probably because Microsoft neglected its VFP product. Still, VFP is the most productive Framework/IDE I have ever used, and way faster in providing for a solution than web based two/three tier apps. Regards, LelandJ Rick Schummer wrote: >>> Microsoft refers to dot.net/Visual Studio as a framework<< >>> > > Common misconception. .NET is the framework of classes, Visual Studio is the > IDE to develop .NET > based apps. You can build .NET apps without Visual Studio (using an > alternative IDE), but you need > the .NET framework installed to run a .NET application. > > Rick > White Light Computing, Inc. > > www.whitelightcomputing.com > www.swfox.net > www.rickschummer.com > > > > > [excessive quoting removed by server] ___ Post Messages to: ProFox@leafe.com Subscription Maintenance: http://leafe.com/mailman/listinfo/profox OT-free version of this list: http://leafe.com/mailman/listinfo/profoxtech Searchable Archive: http://leafe.com/archives/search/profox This message: http://leafe.com/archives/byMID/profox/[EMAIL PROTECTED] ** All postings, unless explicitly stated otherwise, are the opinions of the author, and do not constitute legal or medical advice. This statement is added to the messages for those lawyers who are too stupid to see the obvious.
Re: [NF] Suggestions for high school kid wanting to get into programming
> > I mean, really, who cares about Fibonacci > > sequences? >Havn't you read/seen The Da Vinci Code? :-) That's the first time >I'd heard of Fibonacci since university. I read the book. It was the first time I'd seen the inside of a church since college. Ken www.stic-cil.org ___ Post Messages to: ProFox@leafe.com Subscription Maintenance: http://leafe.com/mailman/listinfo/profox OT-free version of this list: http://leafe.com/mailman/listinfo/profoxtech Searchable Archive: http://leafe.com/archives/search/profox This message: http://leafe.com/archives/byMID/profox/[EMAIL PROTECTED] ** All postings, unless explicitly stated otherwise, are the opinions of the author, and do not constitute legal or medical advice. This statement is added to the messages for those lawyers who are too stupid to see the obvious.
