Re: [Ql-Users] [ql-users] Backplanes...
In message 4d643c95.2040...@firshman.co.uk, Tony Firshman t...@firshman.co.uk writes Malcolm Cadman wrote, on 21/Feb/11 21:34 | Feb21: Hi Dave, Is it an Mplane that was used in the AT cased version of a QL? Any backplane is possible. At the London QL Group we are repairing an AT QL system for a QL User. The back plane seems to allow connections to work themselves loose, over time, or with any sudden movements. If you can add it a simple locking system for cards to the plane, then that would be a useful enhancement. That won't be Mplane. Mplane is a wide thin card, and both the large items (motherboard and expansion card) are screw fixed. Only an item like qubide will sit unfixed by default, but it is possible also to fix that with suitable posts. I think you probably have a Qplane, with all the extensions vertically from the motherboard. Have a look at: http://tfs.firshman.co.uk/ql/mplane.htm Tony Hi Tony, Yes, definitely not an Mplane, having looked at the photo on your web site ...so most likely a Qplane. -- Malcolm Cadman ___ QL-Users Mailing List http://www.q-v-d.demon.co.uk/smsqe.htm
Re: [Ql-Users] [ql-users] Backplanes...
On the subject of backplanes.. I have one of these : http://www.rwapadventures.com/images/q+4-interface.jpg But alas don't have the little interface board that connects it to the QL, does anyone have one that can take a couple of high quality piccies of it, or beter still have a schematic ? Cheers. Phill. ___ QL-Users Mailing List http://www.q-v-d.demon.co.uk/smsqe.htm
Re: [Ql-Users] [ql-users] Backplanes...
Hi Tobias, thanks for your thoughts on this. And your guess on Pennell's solution is correct :) Very interesting piece of information about driver shadowing. Obvious, once you think about it but I hadn't thought about it :) Cheers, Petri On Mon, Feb 21, 2011 at 11:20 PM, Tobias Fröschle tobias.froesc...@t-online.de wrote: Well, I don't have the Pennel book, so don't know his recipe - But would expect he recommends scanning the potential expansion port ROM start candidates for a valid ROM header and mimicking the correct initialisation sequence (i.e calling initialisation routine at x+6 and linking in Basic procedures at x+4. So what could go wrong: Waste of memory - All drivers need to allocate at least a 40+ bytes driver linkage block plus any additional scratchpad memory they need. So if you initialize a driver twice, memory of the first is potentially lost. (The driver as such won't be called twice, because drivers may very well shadow each other, only the first one that tells the system it has recognized its device name will actualy be called (This is one of the mechanisms used by the PE to 'hide' the original con_ driver) Waste of CPU: Drivers linking in a polling or scheduler loop might very well do that twice, same for an external interrupt routine. Polling or scheduler loops just waste CPU. External interrupt routines hooked in twice shouldn't hurt (but probably wasting CPU as well), as an interrupt routine should really clear the interrupt source befor it returns. BTW all of the link traps have no failure exit - they will just link in whatever routine they're asked for. Same goes with SuperBASIC extensions - just a waste of memory - the last one hides the others. This would be one typical usage of a thing: When a driver is initialized, it could check for existance of its correspondent thing and gracefully exits without further initialisation if it's already there. ___ QL-Users Mailing List http://www.q-v-d.demon.co.uk/smsqe.htm ___ QL-Users Mailing List http://www.q-v-d.demon.co.uk/smsqe.htm
Re: [Ql-Users] [ql-users] Backplanes...
At 09:48 22/02/2011 +, you wrote: On the subject of backplanes.. I have one of these : http://www.rwapadventures.com/images/q+4-interface.jpg But alas don't have the little interface board that connects it to the QL, does anyone have one that can take a couple of high quality piccies of it, or beter still have a schematic ? Cheers. Phill. Surely you you just plug it into the QL, mem'expansion or just ribbon cable. ___ QL-Users Mailing List http://www.q-v-d.demon.co.uk/smsqe.htm
Re: [Ql-Users] [ql-users] Backplanes...
David Tubbs wrote: At 09:48 22/02/2011 +, you wrote: On the subject of backplanes.. I have one of these : http://www.rwapadventures.com/images/q+4-interface.jpg But alas don't have the little interface board that connects it to the QL, does anyone have one that can take a couple of high quality piccies of it, or beter still have a schematic ? Surely you you just plug it into the QL, mem'expansion or just ribbon cable. Well yes but perhaps I didn't make it clear, I don't have the small card pictured on the left of that picture, just the big metal 4 slot backplane and that deffo won't plug directly into the QL the cable's not long enough... Cheers. Phill. ___ QL-Users Mailing List http://www.q-v-d.demon.co.uk/smsqe.htm
Re: [Ql-Users] [ql-users] Backplanes...
There is also documentation on backplane power adapter (I think) on Dilwyns web here http://www.dilwyn.me.uk/docs/manuals/qplane.zip from here http://www.dilwyn.me.uk/docs/manuals/index.html#qlmanual Lee - Back to the QL- - Original Message - From: David Tubbs To: ql-us...@q-v-d.com Sent: Tuesday, February 22, 2011 4:02 PM Subject: Re: [Ql-Users] [ql-users] Backplanes... At 09:48 22/02/2011 +, you wrote: On the subject of backplanes.. I have one of these : http://www.rwapadventures.com/images/q+4-interface.jpg But alas don't have the little interface board that connects it to the QL, does anyone have one that can take a couple of high quality piccies of it, or beter still have a schematic ? Cheers. Phill. Surely you you just plug it into the QL, mem'expansion or just ribbon cable. ___ QL-Users Mailing List http://www.q-v-d.demon.co.uk/smsqe.htm ___ QL-Users Mailing List http://www.q-v-d.demon.co.uk/smsqe.htm
Re: [Ql-Users] [ql-users] Backplanes...
On Tue, Feb 22, 2011 at 10:18 AM, Phill Harvey-Smith a...@aurigae.demon.co.uk wrote: David Tubbs wrote: At 09:48 22/02/2011 +, you wrote: On the subject of backplanes.. I have one of these : http://www.rwapadventures.com/images/q+4-interface.jpg But alas don't have the little interface board that connects it to the QL, does anyone have one that can take a couple of high quality piccies of it, or beter still have a schematic ? Surely you you just plug it into the QL, mem'expansion or just ribbon cable. Well yes but perhaps I didn't make it clear, I don't have the small card pictured on the left of that picture, just the big metal 4 slot backplane and that deffo won't plug directly into the QL the cable's not long enough... The card pictured is not a memory card, but instead looks like the buffer card that came with those backplanes. I'm sure the backplane would work without it, but you might have problems if you use more than the first two slots. Rich Mellor may be able to tell you more. Dave ___ QL-Users Mailing List http://www.q-v-d.demon.co.uk/smsqe.htm
Re: [Ql-Users] [ql-users] Backplanes...
Phill Harvey-Smith wrote, on 22/Feb/11 16:18 | Feb22: David Tubbs wrote: At 09:48 22/02/2011 +, you wrote: On the subject of backplanes.. I have one of these : http://www.rwapadventures.com/images/q+4-interface.jpg But alas don't have the little interface board that connects it to the QL, does anyone have one that can take a couple of high quality piccies of it, or beter still have a schematic ? Surely you you just plug it into the QL, mem'expansion or just ribbon cable. Well yes but perhaps I didn't make it clear, I don't have the small card pictured on the left of that picture, just the big metal 4 slot backplane and that deffo won't plug directly into the QL the cable's not long enough... ... but I wouldn't bother even trying. This Quad device is about the worst electrically if I remember correctly. It was also pretty bad mechanically. I don't think they realised how noisy the QL bus was when extended. Tony -- QBBS (QL fido BBS 2:257/67) +44(0)1442-828255 t...@firshman.co.uk http://firshman.co.uk Voice: +44(0)1442-828254 Fax: +44(0)1442-828255 Skype: tonyfirshman TF Services, 29 Longfield Road, TRING, Herts, HP23 4DG ___ QL-Users Mailing List http://www.q-v-d.demon.co.uk/smsqe.htm
Re: [Ql-Users] [ql-users] Backplanes...
Lee Privett wrote, on 22/Feb/11 16:22 | Feb22: There is also documentation on backplane power adapter (I think) on Dilwyns web here http://www.dilwyn.me.uk/docs/manuals/qplane.zip from here http://www.dilwyn.me.uk/docs/manuals/index.html#qlmanual This is not a Qplane but a CST Q+4. Tony -- QBBS (QL fido BBS 2:257/67) +44(0)1442-828255 t...@firshman.co.uk http://firshman.co.uk Voice: +44(0)1442-828254 Fax: +44(0)1442-828255 Skype: tonyfirshman TF Services, 29 Longfield Road, TRING, Herts, HP23 4DG ___ QL-Users Mailing List http://www.q-v-d.demon.co.uk/smsqe.htm
Re: [Ql-Users] [ql-users] Backplanes...
On 22/02/2011 16:26, Tony Firshman wrote: Phill Harvey-Smith wrote, on 22/Feb/11 16:18 | Feb22: David Tubbs wrote: At 09:48 22/02/2011 +, you wrote: On the subject of backplanes.. I have one of these : http://www.rwapadventures.com/images/q+4-interface.jpg But alas don't have the little interface board that connects it to the QL, does anyone have one that can take a couple of high quality piccies of it, or beter still have a schematic ? Surely you you just plug it into the QL, mem'expansion or just ribbon cable. Well yes but perhaps I didn't make it clear, I don't have the small card pictured on the left of that picture, just the big metal 4 slot backplane and that deffo won't plug directly into the QL the cable's not long enough... ... but I wouldn't bother even trying. This Quad device is about the worst electrically if I remember correctly. It was also pretty bad mechanically. I don't think they realised how noisy the QL bus was when extended. I'm not sure that's a problem. We had a lab full of QL's here at Essex University each fitted with an adapter bringing ribbon cable out to a full width 3U rack. The racks had memory, floppy, parallel, serial, and IO cards. All worked without any problems. However the card at the QL end had full data and address buffers. I've just checked and the ribbon cable was about a foot long plus of course the length of the rack (18 inches). Malcolm ___ QL-Users Mailing List http://www.q-v-d.demon.co.uk/smsqe.htm
Re: [Ql-Users] [ql-users] Backplanes...
At 10:25 22/02/2011 -0600, you wrote: The card pictured is not a memory card, but instead looks like the buffer card that came with those backplanes. I'm sure the backplane would work without it, but you might have problems if you use more than the first two slots. Rich Mellor may be able to tell you more. Dave ___ One hell of alot of buffer, a mem expansion would bridge the gap. ___ QL-Users Mailing List http://www.q-v-d.demon.co.uk/smsqe.htm
Re: [Ql-Users] [ql-users] Backplanes...
On Tue, Feb 22, 2011 at 10:45 AM, Malcolm Lear malc...@essex.ac.uk wrote: On 22/02/2011 16:26, Tony Firshman wrote: Phill Harvey-Smith wrote, on 22/Feb/11 16:18 | Feb22: David Tubbs wrote: At 09:48 22/02/2011 +, you wrote: On the subject of backplanes.. I have one of these : http://www.rwapadventures.com/images/q+4-interface.jpg But alas don't have the little interface board that connects it to the QL, does anyone have one that can take a couple of high quality piccies of it, or beter still have a schematic ? Surely you you just plug it into the QL, mem'expansion or just ribbon cable. Well yes but perhaps I didn't make it clear, I don't have the small card pictured on the left of that picture, just the big metal 4 slot backplane and that deffo won't plug directly into the QL the cable's not long enough... ... but I wouldn't bother even trying. This Quad device is about the worst electrically if I remember correctly. It was also pretty bad mechanically. I don't think they realised how noisy the QL bus was when extended. I'm not sure that's a problem. We had a lab full of QL's here at Essex University each fitted with an adapter bringing ribbon cable out to a full width 3U rack. The racks had memory, floppy, parallel, serial, and IO cards. All worked without any problems. However the card at the QL end had full data and address buffers. I've just checked and the ribbon cable was about a foot long plus of course the length of the rack (18 inches). I've done a rough schematic for a 1 to 3 backplane with a 24 pin ATX connector with power control. This will work in any ATX case with an ATX2.X PSU - which would open up case options considerably. It does not contain a ROM socket like the Mplane, because it places two cards on the front side of the QL, not the rear side covering the ROM port. I will have a prototype made for testing in a couple of months, and will then share the photographs, schematic and PCB gerbers with the list. *If anyone wants a backplane, they can have a new TF Services MPlane for around £50/€60** including shipping** to the EU. As there will be a limited number before the ~50 PCBs are used up, if people would like to be on the waiting list they should email me. Please say in the email how many you would like reserved for you. These will likely be ready to ship in 6-8 weeks.* * * Dave ___ QL-Users Mailing List http://www.q-v-d.demon.co.uk/smsqe.htm
Re: [Ql-Users] [ql-users] Backplanes...
Tony Firshman wrote: This Quad device is about the worst electrically if I remember correctly. It was also pretty bad mechanically. I don't think they realised how noisy the QL bus was when extended. Seemed, I once had a QL with a very stable bus (english bare PCB one with JS before). I put it into a little PC case and just had a backplane connected via a ribbon cable to the QL's bus. Nothing else. No buffering. No extra power supply. And that worked with a full blown SQB with mouse port, a QEPIII and a QFlash EPROM-card on its connectors simultanously without any problems. Cheers...Ralf ___ QL-Users Mailing List http://www.q-v-d.demon.co.uk/smsqe.htm
Re: [Ql-Users] [ql-users] Backplanes...
Ralf Reköndt wrote, on 22/Feb/11 17:47 | Feb22: Tony Firshman wrote: This Quad device is about the worst electrically if I remember correctly. It was also pretty bad mechanically. I don't think they realised how noisy the QL bus was when extended. Seemed, I once had a QL with a very stable bus (english bare PCB one with JS before). I put it into a little PC case and just had a backplane connected via a ribbon cable to the QL's bus. Nothing else. No buffering. No extra power supply. And that worked with a full blown SQB with mouse port, a QEPIII and a QFlash EPROM-card on its connectors simultanously without any problems. Yes but with a std speed QL. I meant to say there would be issues with GC and SGC. Tony -- QBBS (QL fido BBS 2:257/67) +44(0)1442-828255 t...@firshman.co.uk http://firshman.co.uk Voice: +44(0)1442-828254 Fax: +44(0)1442-828255 Skype: tonyfirshman TF Services, 29 Longfield Road, TRING, Herts, HP23 4DG ___ QL-Users Mailing List http://www.q-v-d.demon.co.uk/smsqe.htm
Re: [Ql-Users] [ql-users] Backplanes...
On 22/02/2011 17:53, Tony Firshman wrote: Malcolm Lear wrote, on 22/Feb/11 16:45 | Feb22: On 22/02/2011 16:26, Tony Firshman wrote: Phill Harvey-Smith wrote, on 22/Feb/11 16:18 | Feb22: David Tubbs wrote: At 09:48 22/02/2011 +, you wrote: On the subject of backplanes.. I have one of these : http://www.rwapadventures.com/images/q+4-interface.jpg But alas don't have the little interface board that connects it to the QL, does anyone have one that can take a couple of high quality piccies of it, or beter still have a schematic ? Surely you you just plug it into the QL, mem'expansion or just ribbon cable. Well yes but perhaps I didn't make it clear, I don't have the small card pictured on the left of that picture, just the big metal 4 slot backplane and that deffo won't plug directly into the QL the cable's not long enough... ... but I wouldn't bother even trying. This Quad device is about the worst electrically if I remember correctly. It was also pretty bad mechanically. I don't think they realised how noisy the QL bus was when extended. I'm not sure that's a problem. We had a lab full of QL's here at Essex University each fitted with an adapter bringing ribbon cable out to a full width 3U rack. The racks had memory, floppy, parallel, serial, and IO cards. All worked without any problems. However the card at the QL end had full data and address buffers. I've just checked and the ribbon cable was about a foot long plus of course the length of the rack (18 inches). ... but what expansion card? I am talking really Gold Card and SGC. Tony Standard QL's. Malcolm ___ QL-Users Mailing List http://www.q-v-d.demon.co.uk/smsqe.htm
Re: [Ql-Users] [ql-users] Backplanes...
In message AANLkTikeM=gpfa9smf8zwjh3_kcfhaxgstw6o6jjo...@mail.gmail.com, Dave Park plasticu...@gmail.com writes Hi all, After a bit of back and forth, it looks like I will be assembling the remaining stock of Tony Firshman's Mplane. If it happens, they will be available in about 2-3 months. For those that don't remember, the MPlane offers 3 expansion ports and has a 4-pin power connector to take power from a standard AT power supply. It also has a ROM port. This design is great for fitting in smaller cases because it folds back on the QL in a very slimline way. However, AT cases and power supplies are not the easiest to find, and don't have the best form factors any more. There are some interesting slimline and lightweight ATX cases available. I have been asked if it would be possible to do an ATX version or adaptor for this type of backplane. This came up in 2002-3 too, so the need must be even stronger now. My thinking is that many might like this within the QL community, and it would certainly be useful in many other applications so we can have our parts subsidised by wider sales - as with the battery adaptor PCB. Is there much interest in this? Dave Hi Dave, Is it an Mplane that was used in the AT cased version of a QL? At the London QL Group we are repairing an AT QL system for a QL User. The back plane seems to allow connections to work themselves loose, over time, or with any sudden movements. If you can add it a simple locking system for cards to the plane, then that would be a useful enhancement. -- Malcolm Cadman ___ QL-Users Mailing List http://www.q-v-d.demon.co.uk/smsqe.htm
Re: [Ql-Users] [ql-users] Backplanes...
On Mon, Feb 21, 2011 at 12:06 PM, Lee Privett lee.priv...@gmail.com wrote: Dave, it my help those like me with less knowledge of such things to know exactly what QL'ers could make use of a back plane for, plugging in additional peripherals such as floppy drive adapter are already realised with through connections on the memory unit. A backplane allows you to place each card in its own slot. It multiplies the QL's expansion port into three, four or more ports. This means cards don't need to use through-connectors. It also allows them to be powered by an external power supply, if you have so many cards that they strain the QL power supply. This is especially helpful if you have a Gold Card, SGC or Aurora... Imagine a Gold Card in a slot, a QubIDE in one slot, and still having a slot free. Backplanes are usually used if you remove your QL circuit board from the original case and put it in a regular PC case. There are different formats of backplane that allow you to place your QL in a different case - usually an older AT computer case with an AT power supply. AT power supplies have a ON/OFF switch to operate the PSU directly. ATX power supplies are more complicated. They are switched on an off electronically by a control signal from the computer's circuit board - circuitry QLs and most pre-1995 computers do not have. The switch is connected to the computer, and is a momentary switch. It tells the computer that a power toggle was requested, and the computer PCCB can refer to its internal settings to decide what to do. This allows the computer to shut itself down, and to define whether the computer should stay off or turn on after a power failure. There are no QL backplanes which work with ATX power supplies, because they lack that power control circuitry. There is a good description of ATX power and control here: http://pinouts.ru/Power/atx_v2_pinout.shtml Taking power from pin 9 (5VSB) we can operate a bistable flip-flop which is operated by a momentary switch, and feeds the flip-flop's output to pin 16 (/PS_ON). In plain English, a bistable flip-flip is a circuit that, when triggered, changes state then stays in that state until triggered again. So each time you press the switch, the output changes from 1 to 0 or from 0 to 1. Feeding this back to the control circuit of the power supply allows the power supply to turn on and off all the other power outputs as required. The circuit to control this is so trivial, it should really be used in all new designs where a PSU may be needed. Dave ___ QL-Users Mailing List http://www.q-v-d.demon.co.uk/smsqe.htm
Re: [Ql-Users] [ql-users] Backplanes...
On Mon, Feb 21, 2011 at 12:59 PM, Adrian Ives adr...@acanthis.co.uk wrote: Yes, the ATX connector (or better) is a must. You probably want to look into an adapter lead that also bridges the Power Good signal, otherwise you won't get the PSU to switch on. This is what I had to do with my QPlanes in ATX cases. Hehe, this. When you solved that problem, what did you bridge it to? I just shunted it through a resistor to ground in my prototype, as the PSUs I tested only provided 5V at 10-20mA. And, have a good insulating backing plate, because there's nothing worse than 40 amps of 12V shorting onto something metal in the case, or worse, to something on a PCB... Dave ___ QL-Users Mailing List http://www.q-v-d.demon.co.uk/smsqe.htm
Re: [Ql-Users] [ql-users] Backplanes...
A backplane allows you to place each card in its own slot. It multiplies the QL's expansion port into three, four or more ports. This means cards don't Didn't Sinclair ROMs have a bug preventing usage of all expansion slots except for the first one? Daniele ___ QL-Users Mailing List http://www.q-v-d.demon.co.uk/smsqe.htm
Re: [Ql-Users] [ql-users] Backplanes...
On Mon, Feb 21, 2011 at 1:40 PM, JJ Ruiz jjruiz_r...@yahoo.es wrote: I would get one to connect an Aurora and a Gold Card, powering them through the backplane. The 9V line, will carry 9V? or 5V? or it will be selectable? or it will be selectable by each expansion connector? ATX v2 PSUs supply +5V and +/i12V. It is perfectly possible to supply +9V from a +12V line using a 7809... Depending on the current requirement, this could supply up to 2 amps, but would generate a fair amount of heat. For smaller values like 500mA it wouldn't generate much or need a heatsink. Is the 9V for serial? Or to feed 5V cards that have a 7805 regulator? Dave ___ QL-Users Mailing List http://www.q-v-d.demon.co.uk/smsqe.htm
Re: [Ql-Users] [ql-users] Backplanes...
Dave Park wrote, on 21/Feb/11 19:04 | Feb21: On Mon, Feb 21, 2011 at 12:59 PM, Adrian Ivesadr...@acanthis.co.uk wrote: Yes, the ATX connector (or better) is a must. You probably want to look into an adapter lead that also bridges the Power Good signal, otherwise you won't get the PSU to switch on. This is what I had to do with my QPlanes in ATX cases. Hehe, this. When you solved that problem, what did you bridge it to? I just shunted it through a resistor to ground in my prototype, as the PSUs I tested only provided 5V at 10-20mA. Yes - that is what I do, and a ground is right next door! And, have a good insulating backing plate, because there's nothing worse than 40 amps of 12V shorting onto something metal in the case, or worse, to something on a PCB... Oh yes there is - a wet tongue (8-)# Tony -- QBBS (QL fido BBS 2:257/67) +44(0)1442-828255 t...@firshman.co.uk http://firshman.co.uk Voice: +44(0)1442-828254 Fax: +44(0)1442-828255 Skype: tonyfirshman TF Services, 29 Longfield Road, TRING, Herts, HP23 4DG ___ QL-Users Mailing List http://www.q-v-d.demon.co.uk/smsqe.htm
Re: [Ql-Users] [ql-users] Backplanes...
Dave Park wrote, on 21/Feb/11 19:45 | Feb21: On Mon, Feb 21, 2011 at 1:40 PM, JJ Ruizjjruiz_r...@yahoo.es wrote: I would get one to connect an Aurora and a Gold Card, powering them through the backplane. The 9V line, will carry 9V? or 5V? or it will be selectable? or it will be selectable by each expansion connector? ATX v2 PSUs supply +5V and +/i12V. It is perfectly possible to supply +9V from a +12V line using a 7809... Depending on the current requirement, this could supply up to 2 amps, but would generate a fair amount of heat. For smaller values like 500mA it wouldn't generate much or need a heatsink. Is the 9V for serial? Or to feed 5V cards that have a 7805 regulator? The latter. I simply solder a two pin plug across the outer pins of the expansion card 7805 and us an HD style jumper - and a BIG label saying Check 9v!. Mind you it is amazing how long an SGC will survive (8-)# It took a little while to recover, but has worked fine ever since. BTW SGC has an external connector for 5V power. I have solder jumpered *all* of mine. The through contact when not used was very dodgy indeed, especially once the socket had been used. The best and most stable solution with the QL motherboard is to jumper all cards, and to connect the 5V to the 9V rail on the QL motherboard. Tony -- QBBS (QL fido BBS 2:257/67) +44(0)1442-828255 t...@firshman.co.uk http://firshman.co.uk Voice: +44(0)1442-828254 Fax: +44(0)1442-828255 Skype: tonyfirshman TF Services, 29 Longfield Road, TRING, Herts, HP23 4DG ___ QL-Users Mailing List http://www.q-v-d.demon.co.uk/smsqe.htm
Re: [Ql-Users] [ql-users] Backplanes...
Dave Park wrote, on 21/Feb/11 19:41 | Feb21: On Mon, Feb 21, 2011 at 1:05 PM, Daniele Terdinadanieleterd...@hotmail.com wrote: A backplane allows you to place each card in its own slot. It multiplies the QL's expansion port into three, four or more ports. This means cards don't Didn't Sinclair ROMs have a bug preventing usage of all expansion slots except for the first one? I do recall using a QubIDE and SuperQBoard on a JM ROM QL without problems, but I think there are specific reasons for that. Maybe someone with more knowledge than myself can reply? I also don't recall such a problem. The JM did have a bug where Basic loaded RESPR extensions were not recognised in the 'boot' program, which is why boots in my commercial programs had simply LRUN driveboot1. Tony -- QBBS (QL fido BBS 2:257/67) +44(0)1442-828255 t...@firshman.co.uk http://firshman.co.uk Voice: +44(0)1442-828254 Fax: +44(0)1442-828255 Skype: tonyfirshman TF Services, 29 Longfield Road, TRING, Herts, HP23 4DG ___ QL-Users Mailing List http://www.q-v-d.demon.co.uk/smsqe.htm
Re: [Ql-Users] [ql-users] Backplanes...
On Mon, Feb 21, 2011 at 9:05 PM, Daniele Terdina danieleterd...@hotmail.com wrote: Didn't Sinclair ROMs have a bug preventing usage of all expansion slots except for the first one? Being a re-newbie I also have (I hope!) a few related questions : This might be a FAQ so apologies in advance if this subject has been beaten to a painful death many times before Is the section Peripheral ROM problem in chapter 9 of The Sinclair QDOS Companion still relevant? Andrew Pennell outlines a procedure to work around the early QDOS bug where only the first peripheral routine is discovered. Should this workaround still be applied to make sure all peripheral drivers get initialized properly? Does the workaround actually *break* things with newer QDOS versions and more recent peripherals? Cheers, Petri ___ QL-Users Mailing List http://www.q-v-d.demon.co.uk/smsqe.htm
Re: [Ql-Users] [ql-users] Backplanes...
Am 21.02.2011 21:47, schrieb Petri Pellinen: On Mon, Feb 21, 2011 at 9:05 PM, Daniele Terdina danieleterd...@hotmail.com wrote: Didn't Sinclair ROMs have a bug preventing usage of all expansion slots except for the first one? Being a re-newbie I also have (I hope!) a few related questions : This might be a FAQ so apologies in advance if this subject has been beaten to a painful death many times before Is the section Peripheral ROM problem in chapter 9 of The Sinclair QDOS Companion still relevant? Andrew Pennell outlines a procedure to work around the early QDOS bug where only the first peripheral routine is discovered. Should this workaround still be applied to make sure all peripheral drivers get initialized properly? Does the workaround actually *break* things with newer QDOS versions and more recent peripherals? Quite an interesting question, just a wild guess on it: Well, I don't have the Pennel book, so don't know his recipe - But would expect he recommends scanning the potential expansion port ROM start candidates for a valid ROM header and mimicking the correct initialisation sequence (i.e calling initialisation routine at x+6 and linking in Basic procedures at x+4. So what could go wrong: Waste of memory - All drivers need to allocate at least a 40+ bytes driver linkage block plus any additional scratchpad memory they need. So if you initialize a driver twice, memory of the first is potentially lost. (The driver as such won't be called twice, because drivers may very well shadow each other, only the first one that tells the system it has recognized its device name will actualy be called (This is one of the mechanisms used by the PE to 'hide' the original con_ driver) Waste of CPU: Drivers linking in a polling or scheduler loop might very well do that twice, same for an external interrupt routine. Polling or scheduler loops just waste CPU. External interrupt routines hooked in twice shouldn't hurt (but probably wasting CPU as well), as an interrupt routine should really clear the interrupt source befor it returns. BTW all of the link traps have no failure exit - they will just link in whatever routine they're asked for. Same goes with SuperBASIC extensions - just a waste of memory - the last one hides the others. This would be one typical usage of a thing: When a driver is initialized, it could check for existance of its correspondent thing and gracefully exits without further initialisation if it's already there. ___ QL-Users Mailing List http://www.q-v-d.demon.co.uk/smsqe.htm
Re: [Ql-Users] [ql-users] Backplanes...
At 19:33 21/02/2011 +, you wrote: Only in the JM and previous rom versions. From JS onwards I believe it works as it's supposed to. Certainly Minerva and MG tested each 16k ROM slot when I made my 256k EPROM expansion card Incidently I mapped the floppy drive code in that slot freom 64k upwards. I jave done many odd things in the hardware field that folk may be interested in. But when two people here asked for pics I find myself dismayed at their responses. One came back instantly with Oh no it isnt., the other to four emails gave no substantive reply save one to explain why it doesn't work. They both come across as experts and I was just an shamateur bodger. I did tread , I think, a an unusual trail through computing and have for some time have been thinking of writing it up with illustrations (crippling limitation of this board.) Not to forget the backplanes. My own solution was not planar, more like a crooked spine., in effect a 2 or 3 way expansion. ___ QL-Users Mailing List http://www.q-v-d.demon.co.uk/smsqe.htm
Re: [Ql-Users] [ql-users] Backplanes...
On Feb 21, 2011, at 2:02 PM, Tony Firshman t...@firshman.co.uk wrote: Dave Park wrote, on 21/Feb/11 19:04 | Feb21: On Mon, Feb 21, 2011 at 12:59 PM, Adrian Ivesadr...@acanthis.co.uk wrote: Yes, the ATX connector (or better) is a must. You probably want to look into an adapter lead that also bridges the Power Good signal, otherwise you won't get the PSU to switch on. This is what I had to do with my QPlanes in ATX cases. Hehe, this. When you solved that problem, what did you bridge it to? I just shunted it through a resistor to ground in my prototype, as the PSUs I tested only provided 5V at 10-20mA. Yes - that is what I do, and a ground is right next door! And, have a good insulating backing plate, because there's nothing worse than 40 amps of 12V shorting onto something metal in the case, or worse, to something on a PCB... Oh yes there is - a wet tongue. Oh really? Wet tongued heal. Fried QLs do not self-repair. ;) Dave ___ QL-Users Mailing List http://www.q-v-d.demon.co.uk/smsqe.htm
Re: [Ql-Users] [ql-users] Backplanes...
On 22/02/2011 00:12, Dave Park wrote: On Feb 21, 2011, at 2:02 PM, Tony Firshmant...@firshman.co.uk wrote: And, have a good insulating backing plate, because there's nothing worse than 40 amps of 12V shorting onto something metal in the case, or worse, to something on a PCB... Oh yes there is - a wet tongue. Oh really? Wet tongued heal. Fried QLs do not self-repair. ;) Though prolly not if they've had 40A @ 12V (480W) through them... Mind TBH, if I where powering QL+addons from an ATX I'd prolly put apropreatly rated fuses in the cables between PSU and computer, after all the sorts of currents that an AT/ATX PSU can supply could under fault conditions cause the QL board to catch fire without ever over strainging the PSU.. Common misconception: fuses are there to prevent shocks, they're not they're there to melt/blow and break the circuit before it can become damaged / catch fire. Cheers. Phill. -- Phill Harvey-Smith, Programmer, Hardware hacker, and general eccentric ! You can twist perceptions, but reality won't budge -- Rush. ___ QL-Users Mailing List http://www.q-v-d.demon.co.uk/smsqe.htm
Re: [Ql-Users] [ql-users] Backplanes...
On Feb 21, 2011, at 6:27 PM, Phill Harvey-Smith a...@aurigae.demon.co.uk wrote: On 22/02/2011 00:12, Dave Park wrote: On Feb 21, 2011, at 2:02 PM, Tony Firshmant...@firshman.co.uk wrote: And, have a good insulating backing plate, because there's nothing worse than 40 amps of 12V shorting onto something metal in the case, or worse, to something on a PCB... Oh yes there is - a wet tongue. Oh really? Wet tongued heal. Fried QLs do not self-repair. ;) Though prolly not if they've had 40A @ 12V (480W) through them... Mind TBH, if I where powering QL+addons from an ATX I'd prolly put apropreatly rated fuses in the cables between PSU and computer, after all the sorts of currents that an AT/ATX PSU can supply could under fault conditions cause the QL board to catch fire without ever over strainging the PSU.. Common misconception: fuses are there to prevent shocks, they're not they're there to melt/blow and break the circuit before it can become damaged / catch fire. Indeed. It is always best to ensure a weak point in the circuit is one you can replace for less than 50p. Dave. ___ QL-Users Mailing List http://www.q-v-d.demon.co.uk/smsqe.htm
Re: [Ql-Users] [ql-users] Backplanes...
All this talk is making hunger for an SGC not having seen or used before, are there really none out there or not ever being made? Lee - Back to the QL- On 22/02/2011 00:12, Dave Park wrote: On Feb 21, 2011, at 2:02 PM, Tony Firshmant...@firshman.co.uk wrote: And, have a good insulating backing plate, because there's nothing worse than 40 amps of 12V shorting onto something metal in the case, or worse, to something on a PCB... Oh yes there is - a wet tongue. Oh really? Wet tongued heal. Fried QLs do not self-repair. ;) Though prolly not if they've had 40A @ 12V (480W) through them... Mind TBH, if I where powering QL+addons from an ATX I'd prolly put apropreatly rated fuses in the cables between PSU and computer, after all the sorts of currents that an AT/ATX PSU can supply could under fault conditions cause the QL board to catch fire without ever over strainging the PSU.. Common misconception: fuses are there to prevent shocks, they're not they're there to melt/blow and break the circuit before it can become damaged / catch fire. QL-Users Mailing List http://www.q-v-d.demon.co.uk/smsqe.htm ___ QL-Users Mailing List http://www.q-v-d.demon.co.uk/smsqe.htm
Re: [Ql-Users] [ql-users] Backplanes...
I would be interested in buying one. The DIN connectors seem to be rather expensive so I'm a bit concerned about the price. A kit instead of a finished assembly would also be nice. Four slots would probably be optimal for my use. Can't answer your other questions since I have never used one before :) /Petri On Wed, Feb 16, 2011 at 5:26 PM, Plastic plasticu...@gmail.com wrote: Hi all, I have been asked off-list if I could make some backplanes. I have a stack of the connectors already, so, if there was demand, I could do this quite easily. The questions are: Is there any demand for this? Is there any deficiency or design issue with previous ones that needs correcting? (clearances? support? clean power?) How are they normally used/oriented? How could they be improved? How many expansion ports does your backplane have, how many do you use, and how many do you wish you had? Maybe people could send me photos off-list of their backplane set-ups so I can see what people are doing! Dave ___ QL-Users Mailing List http://www.q-v-d.demon.co.uk/smsqe.htm ___ QL-Users Mailing List http://www.q-v-d.demon.co.uk/smsqe.htm
Re: [Ql-Users] [ql-users] Backplanes...
On 16/02/2011 15:46, Petri Pellinen wrote: I would be interested in buying one. The DIN connectors seem to be rather expensive so I'm a bit concerned about the price. A kit instead of a finished assembly would also be nice. Four slots would probably be optimal for my use. Can't answer your other questions since I have never used one before :) /Petri On Wed, Feb 16, 2011 at 5:26 PM, Plasticplasticu...@gmail.com wrote: Hi all, I have been asked off-list if I could make some backplanes. I have a stack of the connectors already, so, if there was demand, I could do this quite easily. The questions are: Is there any demand for this? Is there any deficiency or design issue with previous ones that needs correcting? (clearances? support? clean power?) How are they normally used/oriented? How could they be improved? How many expansion ports does your backplane have, how many do you use, and how many do you wish you had? Maybe people could send me photos off-list of their backplane set-ups so I can see what people are doing! Dave ___ QL-Users Mailing List http://www.q-v-d.demon.co.uk/smsqe.htm ___ QL-Users Mailing List http://www.q-v-d.demon.co.uk/smsqe.htm I have several backplanes available if anyone needs one: a) A Jurgen Falkenberg 2 slot unbuffered / unpowered backplane b) An unknown unbuffered / unpowered backplane which has a nice blue PCB - oddly it has 2 female connectors and 2 male connectors (any ideas - anyone.) c) A QPlane - powered buffered backplane, with 3 slots d) A Jurgen Falkenberg QL-Bus - see http://www.rwapadventures.com/ql_wiki/index.php?title=QL-Bus -- Rich Mellor RWAP Services http://www.rwapsoftware.co.uk http://www.rwapservices.co.uk -- Try out our new site: http://sellmyretro.com ___ QL-Users Mailing List http://www.q-v-d.demon.co.uk/smsqe.htm
Re: [Ql-Users] [ql-users] Backplanes...
On Wed, Feb 16, 2011 at 11:05 AM, Rich Mellor r...@rwapservices.co.ukwrote: I have several backplanes available if anyone needs one: a) A Jurgen Falkenberg 2 slot unbuffered / unpowered backplane b) An unknown unbuffered / unpowered backplane which has a nice blue PCB - oddly it has 2 female connectors and 2 male connectors (any ideas - anyone.) c) A QPlane - powered buffered backplane, with 3 slots d) A Jurgen Falkenberg QL-Bus - see http://www.rwapadventures.com/ql_wiki/index.php?title=QL-Bus Rich, what do you make of the QPlane? I have one and am scared to use it. I wouldn't have used a 2-layer PCB for that purpose. I hear the Falkenburgs are decent, as is the MPlane. Dave ___ QL-Users Mailing List http://www.q-v-d.demon.co.uk/smsqe.htm
Re: [Ql-Users] [ql-users] Backplanes...
On 16/02/2011 17:23, Plastic wrote: On Wed, Feb 16, 2011 at 11:05 AM, Rich Mellorr...@rwapservices.co.ukwrote: I have several backplanes available if anyone needs one: a) A Jurgen Falkenberg 2 slot unbuffered / unpowered backplane b) An unknown unbuffered / unpowered backplane which has a nice blue PCB - oddly it has 2 female connectors and 2 male connectors (any ideas - anyone.) c) A QPlane - powered buffered backplane, with 3 slots d) A Jurgen Falkenberg QL-Bus - see http://www.rwapadventures.com/ql_wiki/index.php?title=QL-Bus Rich, what do you make of the QPlane? I have one and am scared to use it. I wouldn't have used a 2-layer PCB for that purpose. I hear the Falkenburgs are decent, as is the MPlane. Dave ___ QL-Users Mailing List http://www.q-v-d.demon.co.uk/smsqe.htm I used a QPlane for years in my Aurora / SGC based boxed QL (long since sold) without any problems. My only real problem was that I managed to break a bit of the plastic off one of the connectors on the QPlane, so could only use 2 out of the three slots (just enough for Aurora + QubIDE + Super Gold Card). -- Rich Mellor RWAP Services http://www.rwapsoftware.co.uk http://www.rwapservices.co.uk -- Try out our new site: http://sellmyretro.com ___ QL-Users Mailing List http://www.q-v-d.demon.co.uk/smsqe.htm
