Re: [qmailtoaster] greylisting

[George]

I don't find that most of the spam comes in the way you describe.  About 60% 
of my spam stopped just by rejecting all ip's from the Pacific Rim (not 
feasible for some providers)... then there are groups of ip's which servers 
are sending bulk messages to my users... So I limit the recips in the 
envelop and ban more blocks.  The user problems I have are from my own 
infected users and rejecting my own users or dynamic ips is counter 
productive.  Infected users send to the outgoing mailserver in their 
settings and the spam will just try again upon next login.

--not a fan

George
- Original Message - 
From: "Marius Karthaus" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Wednesday, December 14, 2005 4:28 AM
Subject: [qmailtoaster] greylisting


Hi,

I was wondering if there were any plans to support greylisting.
Greylisting is a wonderfull way of stopping spam and viri.
In a nutshell greylisting gives an error to the sender of an email the
first time the combination "from, to, IP" is encountered.
A normal mailserver will retry a few minutes later, this second attempt
is allowed and mail is accepted.
After a few succesfull sessions the combination "from, to, IP" is
whitelisted and consequent email will not be delayed.
If a sender IP has shown that it did a few different good sessions this
IP can be whitlisted also on the basis that this is probably a good
mailserver, allowing all mail to be delivered from that IP.
This works because most spam and virusses are sent by infected computers
that do not behave like a 'normal' mailserver. Errors are ignored and
there is no regard for the rfc on how to re-deliver temporarily failed
mail.
there is more to read on:

http://greylisting.org/
http://projects.puremagic.com/greylisting/


Regards,
Marius Karthaus




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Re: [qmailtoaster] greylisting

[Erik Espinoza]

Does the toaster have greylisting capability?


No


If not, is someone working on it?


No

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Re: [qmailtoaster] greylisting

[Eric \"Shubes\"]

Erik Espinoza wrote:

Does the toaster have greylisting capability?


No


If not, is someone working on it?


No



I hear good things about greylisting, and I think it would be a nice 
addition to the toaster's many nice features. Is there any reason why 
adding that capability isn't a good idea?


Does anyone know any greylisting software which would or wouldn't be a 
good candidate for the toaster?


Any special considerations?

--
-Eric 'shubes'

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Re: [qmailtoaster] greylisting

[Erik Espinoza]

I hear good things about greylisting, and I think it would be a nice
addition to the toaster's many nice features. Is there any reason why
adding that capability isn't a good idea?


There are a lot of issues with greylisting in general, many of them
explained here.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greylisting#Disadvantages

In addition, the QmailToaster is getting very complicated and a lot of
users are starting to have issues keeping up with all of the new
features Including one that causes troubleshooting to be incredibly
harder such as greylisting is a sure fire way to lose all of the
ground we have gained..


Does anyone know any greylisting software which would or wouldn't be a
good candidate for the toaster?


Not sure of any "good" candidates, but there are plenty of candidates.
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=qmail+greylisting&btnG=Google+Search


Any special considerations?


Most qmail greylisting patches do not work properly in conjunction
with smtp-auth.

Thanks,
Erik

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Re: [qmailtoaster] Greylisting

[Erik Espinoza]

You may want to check this out:

http://thomas.mangin.me.uk/software/qmail-greylist.html

Install instructions are simple:
cd /var/qmail/bin ; wget http://thomas.mangin.me.uk/data/source/greyd
; chmod +x greyd
mkdir /var/qmail/grey ; chown vpopmail.vchkpw /var/qmail/grey

Add ',GREY=""' to the :allow statement at the bottom of /etc/tcprules.d/tcp.smtp

Then change /var/qmail/supervise/smtp/run to look like this:
#!/bin/sh
QMAILDUID=`id -u vpopmail`
NOFILESGID=`id -g vpopmail`
MAXSMTPD=`cat /var/qmail/control/concurrencyincoming`
BLACKLIST=`cat /var/qmail/control/blacklists`
SMTPD="/var/qmail/bin/qmail-smtpd"
GREYD="/var/qmail/bin/greyd"
TCP_CDB="/etc/tcprules.d/tcp.smtp.cdb"
RBLSMTPD="/usr/bin/rblsmtpd"
HOSTNAME=`hostname`
VCHKPW="/home/vpopmail/bin/vchkpw"

exec /usr/bin/softlimit -m 1200 \
/usr/bin/tcpserver -v -R -H -l $HOSTNAME -x $TCP_CDB -c "$MAXSMTPD" \
-u "$QMAILDUID" -g "$NOFILESGID" 0 smtp \
$GREYD $RBLSMTPD $BLACKLIST $SMTPD $VCHKPW /bin/true 2>&1

On 1/16/07, Wojciech Gabor <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

I plan start any greylisting with QT. What package is recommended for QT?
Any HOWTO?
--
Tuptus
System uptime: 41 years 8 months 3 weeks 0 days 3 hours 45 minuts

Why use windows since there is a door?

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Re: [qmailtoaster] Greylisting

[Wojciech Gabor]

Dnia wtorek, 16 stycznia 2007 09:43, Erik Espinoza napisał:
> You may want to check this out:
>
> http://thomas.mangin.me.uk/software/qmail-greylist.html

Simple and effective.
THX Erik.

-- 
System uptime: 41 years 8 months 3 weeks 1 days 9 hours 45 minuts

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Re: [qmailtoaster] Greylisting

[Eric \"Shubes\"]

Wojciech Gabor wrote:
> Dnia wtorek, 16 stycznia 2007 09:43, Erik Espinoza napisał:
>> You may want to check this out:
>>
>> http://thomas.mangin.me.uk/software/qmail-greylist.html
> 
> Simple and effective.
> THX Erik.
> 
WG,
I take it you've had success with this? Would you care to elaborate some?

-- 
-Eric 'shubes'

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Re: [qmailtoaster] GREYLISTING

[Erik Espinoza]

Hello Rajesh,

Greylisting has many issues with newer smtp firewalls and spam
appliances. As they do not have much space, they usually do not retry
after receiving an error 4xx. As such we are not going to be including
greylisting in the QmailToaster.

That said, there is info on simple greylisting here: http://www.kabewm.com/?p=19

I believe someone on this list had released a concurrency limit per ip
using tcpserver, instead of global. It will probably be a part of the
QmailToaster soon.

Thanks,
Erik

On 2/9/07, 24x7server <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

hi

nowadays once every week or so we get an enormous number of spam hits which 
increases the number of concurrent incoming connections to around 250, causing 
too much load on server. reducing this figure means our clients suffer.

normally concurrency incoming it is just 25 - 40 range.

we are planning to use greylisting, searched and found quite a few websites 
providing patches

a) can anybody point us to good working patch wherein we can have grey and 
whitelisting of ips known servers

b) is there anybody who can share their experience using greylisting mechanism 
successfully with qmail toaster, problems faced by them if any.

rajesh mahadevan

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Re: [qmailtoaster] GREYLISTING

[Philip Nix Guru]

Hello
http://wiki.qmailtoaster.com/index.php/TCP_Server_limits_configuration
You ll find the ucspi with the limit_patch link
and the infos on how to setup the variables in your cdb file

Cheers
-Philip


Erik Espinoza wrote:

Hello Rajesh,

Greylisting has many issues with newer smtp firewalls and spam
appliances. As they do not have much space, they usually do not retry
after receiving an error 4xx. As such we are not going to be including
greylisting in the QmailToaster.

That said, there is info on simple greylisting here: 
http://www.kabewm.com/?p=19


I believe someone on this list had released a concurrency limit per ip
using tcpserver, instead of global. It will probably be a part of the
QmailToaster soon.

Thanks,
Erik

On 2/9/07, 24x7server <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

hi

nowadays once every week or so we get an enormous number of spam hits 
which increases the number of concurrent incoming connections to 
around 250, causing too much load on server. reducing this figure 
means our clients suffer.


normally concurrency incoming it is just 25 - 40 range.

we are planning to use greylisting, searched and found quite a few 
websites providing patches


a) can anybody point us to good working patch wherein we can have 
grey and whitelisting of ips known servers


b) is there anybody who can share their experience using greylisting 
mechanism successfully with qmail toaster, problems faced by them if 
any.


rajesh mahadevan

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Re: [qmailtoaster] GREYLISTING

[Jean-Paul van de Plasse]

Btw,
would be nice if this rpm can go to the devel site..

JP
- Original Message - 
From: "Philip Nix Guru" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

To: 
Sent: Friday, February 09, 2007 8:13 PM
Subject: Re: [qmailtoaster] GREYLISTING



Hello
http://wiki.qmailtoaster.com/index.php/TCP_Server_limits_configuration
You ll find the ucspi with the limit_patch link
and the infos on how to setup the variables in your cdb file

Cheers
-Philip


Erik Espinoza wrote:

Hello Rajesh,

Greylisting has many issues with newer smtp firewalls and spam
appliances. As they do not have much space, they usually do not retry
after receiving an error 4xx. As such we are not going to be including
greylisting in the QmailToaster.

That said, there is info on simple greylisting here: 
http://www.kabewm.com/?p=19


I believe someone on this list had released a concurrency limit per ip
using tcpserver, instead of global. It will probably be a part of the
QmailToaster soon.

Thanks,
Erik

On 2/9/07, 24x7server <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

hi

nowadays once every week or so we get an enormous number of spam hits 
which increases the number of concurrent incoming connections to around 
250, causing too much load on server. reducing this figure means our 
clients suffer.


normally concurrency incoming it is just 25 - 40 range.

we are planning to use greylisting, searched and found quite a few 
websites providing patches


a) can anybody point us to good working patch wherein we can have grey 
and whitelisting of ips known servers


b) is there anybody who can share their experience using greylisting 
mechanism successfully with qmail toaster, problems faced by them if 
any.


rajesh mahadevan

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Re: [qmailtoaster] GREYLISTING

[Erik Espinoza]

I will put it there tonight.

Erik

On 2/9/07, Jean-Paul van de Plasse <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

Btw,
would be nice if this rpm can go to the devel site..

JP
- Original Message -
From: "Philip Nix Guru" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Friday, February 09, 2007 8:13 PM
Subject: Re: [qmailtoaster] GREYLISTING


> Hello
> http://wiki.qmailtoaster.com/index.php/TCP_Server_limits_configuration
> You ll find the ucspi with the limit_patch link
> and the infos on how to setup the variables in your cdb file
>
> Cheers
> -Philip
>
>
> Erik Espinoza wrote:
>> Hello Rajesh,
>>
>> Greylisting has many issues with newer smtp firewalls and spam
>> appliances. As they do not have much space, they usually do not retry
>> after receiving an error 4xx. As such we are not going to be including
>> greylisting in the QmailToaster.
>>
>> That said, there is info on simple greylisting here:
>> http://www.kabewm.com/?p=19
>>
>> I believe someone on this list had released a concurrency limit per ip
>> using tcpserver, instead of global. It will probably be a part of the
>> QmailToaster soon.
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Erik
>>
>> On 2/9/07, 24x7server <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>> hi
>>>
>>> nowadays once every week or so we get an enormous number of spam hits
>>> which increases the number of concurrent incoming connections to around
>>> 250, causing too much load on server. reducing this figure means our
>>> clients suffer.
>>>
>>> normally concurrency incoming it is just 25 - 40 range.
>>>
>>> we are planning to use greylisting, searched and found quite a few
>>> websites providing patches
>>>
>>> a) can anybody point us to good working patch wherein we can have grey
>>> and whitelisting of ips known servers
>>>
>>> b) is there anybody who can share their experience using greylisting
>>> mechanism successfully with qmail toaster, problems faced by them if
>>> any.
>>>
>>> rajesh mahadevan
>>>
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>>>
>>
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Re: [qmailtoaster] GREYLISTING

[Erik Espinoza]

It's up.

Erik

On 2/9/07, Jean-Paul van de Plasse <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

Btw,
would be nice if this rpm can go to the devel site..

JP
- Original Message -
From: "Philip Nix Guru" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Friday, February 09, 2007 8:13 PM
Subject: Re: [qmailtoaster] GREYLISTING


> Hello
> http://wiki.qmailtoaster.com/index.php/TCP_Server_limits_configuration
> You ll find the ucspi with the limit_patch link
> and the infos on how to setup the variables in your cdb file
>
> Cheers
> -Philip
>
>
> Erik Espinoza wrote:
>> Hello Rajesh,
>>
>> Greylisting has many issues with newer smtp firewalls and spam
>> appliances. As they do not have much space, they usually do not retry
>> after receiving an error 4xx. As such we are not going to be including
>> greylisting in the QmailToaster.
>>
>> That said, there is info on simple greylisting here:
>> http://www.kabewm.com/?p=19
>>
>> I believe someone on this list had released a concurrency limit per ip
>> using tcpserver, instead of global. It will probably be a part of the
>> QmailToaster soon.
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Erik
>>
>> On 2/9/07, 24x7server <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>> hi
>>>
>>> nowadays once every week or so we get an enormous number of spam hits
>>> which increases the number of concurrent incoming connections to around
>>> 250, causing too much load on server. reducing this figure means our
>>> clients suffer.
>>>
>>> normally concurrency incoming it is just 25 - 40 range.
>>>
>>> we are planning to use greylisting, searched and found quite a few
>>> websites providing patches
>>>
>>> a) can anybody point us to good working patch wherein we can have grey
>>> and whitelisting of ips known servers
>>>
>>> b) is there anybody who can share their experience using greylisting
>>> mechanism successfully with qmail toaster, problems faced by them if
>>> any.
>>>
>>> rajesh mahadevan
>>>
>>> -
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>>>
>>>
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Re: [qmailtoaster] GREYLISTING

[Eric \"Shubes\"]

24x7server wrote:
> hi
> 
> nowadays once every week or so we get an enormous number of spam hits which 
> increases the number of concurrent incoming connections to around 250, 
> causing too much load on server. reducing this figure means our clients 
> suffer.
> 
> normally concurrency incoming it is just 25 - 40 range.
> 
> we are planning to use greylisting, searched and found quite a few websites 
> providing patches
> 
> a) can anybody point us to good working patch wherein we can have grey and 
> whitelisting of ips known servers
> 
> b) is there anybody who can share their experience using greylisting 
> mechanism successfully with qmail toaster, problems faced by them if any.
> 
> rajesh mahadevan
> 

Here's a note that EE sent me a month or so ago:
> I remember you mentioning that you were interested in greylisting. You
> may want to check this out:
> 
> http://thomas.mangin.me.uk/software/qmail-greylist.html
> 
> Install instructions are simple:
> cd /var/qmail/bin ; wget http://thomas.mangin.me.uk/data/source/greyd
> ; chmod +x greyd
> mkdir /var/qmail/grey ; chown vpopmail.vchkpw /var/qmail/grey
> 
> Add ',GREY=""' to the :allow statement at the bottom of 
> /etc/tcprules.d/tcp.smtp
> 
> Then change /var/qmail/supervise/smtp/run to look like this:
> #!/bin/sh
> QMAILDUID=`id -u vpopmail`
> NOFILESGID=`id -g vpopmail`
> MAXSMTPD=`cat /var/qmail/control/concurrencyincoming`
> BLACKLIST=`cat /var/qmail/control/blacklists`
> SMTPD="/var/qmail/bin/qmail-smtpd"
> GREYD="/var/qmail/bin/greyd"
> TCP_CDB="/etc/tcprules.d/tcp.smtp.cdb"
> RBLSMTPD="/usr/bin/rblsmtpd"
> HOSTNAME=`hostname`
> VCHKPW="/home/vpopmail/bin/vchkpw"
> 
> exec /usr/bin/softlimit -m 1200 \
> /usr/bin/tcpserver -v -R -H -l $HOSTNAME -x $TCP_CDB -c "$MAXSMTPD" \
> -u "$QMAILDUID" -g "$NOFILESGID" 0 smtp \
> $GREYD $RBLSMTPD $BLACKLIST $SMTPD $VCHKPW /bin/true 2>&1

There have been a few posts on the list recently regarding this too.

Before doing greylisting, I'd want to be sure that other avenues were
exhausted first.

.) RBLs
 - you should be using something more than the stock toaster
.) simultaneous connections
 - there was some talk a while back about limiting the number of
simultaneous connections from a given IP. If you're getting flooded from a
single address, that might help.

I'd only implement greylisting as a last resort. It has the potential to
give you additional headaches. ;)
-- 
-Eric 'shubes'

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RE: [qmailtoaster] Greylisting

[Nuryono]

Dear,

I'm new to qmailtoaster,  I'm now in the process of setting up a new server
and have to implement qmailtoaster. Can anyone inform me about synchronizing
address book? As my client will use outlook express 2003 for they MUA.
Please help..

Regards,
Lauqin


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RE: [qmailtoaster] Greylisting

[PakOgah]

>
> Dear,
>
> I'm new to qmailtoaster,  I'm now in the process of setting up a new
> server
> and have to implement qmailtoaster. Can anyone inform me about
> synchronizing
> address book? As my client will use outlook express 2003 for they MUA.
> Please help..
>
> Regards,
> Lauqin

hmm... have you tried looking in wiki and archive?
global address book for squirelmail and email client seems a feature which
QT missed. most global address book solution is using LDAP (qmail-ldap)
but QT using vpopmail with mysql database.

there are a lot of request if I check on archive
http://www.mail-archive.com/qmailtoaster-list@qmailtoaster.com/msg11714.html
http://www.mail-archive.com/qmailtoaster-list@qmailtoaster.com/msg00383.html
http://www.mail-archive.com/qmailtoaster-list@qmailtoaster.com/msg03900.html

and it might be your answers (info from Thiago Germano Beier)
http://www.mail-archive.com/qmailtoaster-list@qmailtoaster.com/msg00434.html

btw, what do you mean by "have to implement qmailtoaster" dont you think
"have to implement a mailserver" ? out there.. (still using qmail) there
are mailserver packaging with ldap and easily provide a global address
book
for instance
http://www.qmail-ldap.org/wiki/Main_Page
http://freshmeat.net/projects/qmail-ldap/
http://www.nrg4u.com/
http://deeproot.in/deepofix (this mailserver also has a nice web admin --
wow!!!)

frankly I choose QT because it easier for me to manage mysql database
instead LDAP. yes my user also asking for it. btw, lists how many of you
who didn't have global address book and want it badly ?? Raised your
hands.
Hi, Thiago Germano Beier can you share your installation notes,

Thank b4


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Re: [qmailtoaster] greylisting

[Eric Shubert]

My (Alan) Nguyen wrote:
> I’m setting up greylisting on my server right now and while reading over
> the instructions it appears to be easy to set up,  but there doesn’t
> appear to be any details as to how to fine tune greylisting. If say your
> qmail server is blocking a specific site or domain and you want to allow
> it because it isn’t a spammer.
> 
>  
> 
> Anybody have any idea’s or input on this since the manuals really don’t
> have anything on fine tuning it?
> 
>  
> 
> **Thanks,**
> 
> **My (Alan) Nguyen**
> 

Which instructions?

I would recommend implementing spamdyke, as it includes greylisting (among
other things), and it will likely be included in the stock v1.4 toaster. I'm
sure that Sam (spamdyke's author) will be helpful in getting it to work in
your environment.

-- 
-Eric 'shubes'

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RE: [qmailtoaster] greylisting

[My (Alan) Nguyen]

The instructions I'm talking about is,
http://wiki.qmailtoaster.com/index.php/QMT-ISO_Manual_Guide#Setup_greyli
sting

 

As for spamdyke, thanks Eric... I'll look into that. 

 

 

My (Alan) Nguyen

 

-Original Message-
From: Eric Shubert [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Friday, April 04, 2008 11:59 AM
To: qmailtoaster-list@qmailtoaster.com
Subject: Re: [qmailtoaster] greylisting

 

My (Alan) Nguyen wrote:

> I'm setting up greylisting on my server right now and while reading
over

> the instructions it appears to be easy to set up,  but there doesn't

> appear to be any details as to how to fine tune greylisting. If say
your

> qmail server is blocking a specific site or domain and you want to
allow

> it because it isn't a spammer.

> 

>  

> 

> Anybody have any idea's or input on this since the manuals really
don't

> have anything on fine tuning it?

> 

>  

> 

> **Thanks,**

> 

> **My (Alan) Nguyen**

> 

 

Which instructions?

 

I would recommend implementing spamdyke, as it includes greylisting
(among

other things), and it will likely be included in the stock v1.4 toaster.
I'm

sure that Sam (spamdyke's author) will be helpful in getting it to work
in

your environment.

 

-- 

-Eric 'shubes'

 

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Re: [qmailtoaster] greylisting

[Phil Leinhauser]

Is Spamdyke the direction QMT is headed?  Is it better than Spamassasin?  

Should Spamassasin be removed before installing spamdyke?


-Original message-
From: Eric Shubert [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Fri, 04 Apr 2008 11:58:57 -0400
To: qmailtoaster-list@qmailtoaster.com
Subject: Re: [qmailtoaster] greylisting

> My (Alan) Nguyen wrote:
> > I’m setting up greylisting on my server right now and while reading over
> > the instructions it appears to be easy to set up,  but there doesn’t
> > appear to be any details as to how to fine tune greylisting. If say your
> > qmail server is blocking a specific site or domain and you want to allow
> > it because it isn’t a spammer.
> > 
> >  
> > 
> > Anybody have any idea’s or input on this since the manuals really don’t
> > have anything on fine tuning it?
> > 
> >  
> > 
> > **Thanks,**
> > 
> > **My (Alan) Nguyen**
> > 
> 
> Which instructions?
> 
> I would recommend implementing spamdyke, as it includes greylisting (among
> other things), and it will likely be included in the stock v1.4 toaster. I'm
> sure that Sam (spamdyke's author) will be helpful in getting it to work in
> your environment.
> 
> -- 
> -Eric 'shubes'
> 
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Re: [qmailtoaster] greylisting

[Andrew Niemantsverdriet]

No Spamassassin and Spamdyke work together. Spamdyke works at SMTP
level stopping spam at the level so it reduces the amount of work that
Spamassassin has to do because many of the obvious messages don't make
it through.

On Fri, Apr 4, 2008 at 12:50 PM, Phil Leinhauser <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Is Spamdyke the direction QMT is headed?  Is it better than Spamassasin?
>
>  Should Spamassasin be removed before installing spamdyke?
>
>
>
>
>  -Original message-
>  From: Eric Shubert [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>  Date: Fri, 04 Apr 2008 11:58:57 -0400
>  To: qmailtoaster-list@qmailtoaster.com
>  Subject: Re: [qmailtoaster] greylisting
>
>  > My (Alan) Nguyen wrote:
>  > > I'm setting up greylisting on my server right now and while reading over
>  > > the instructions it appears to be easy to set up,  but there doesn't
>  > > appear to be any details as to how to fine tune greylisting. If say your
>  > > qmail server is blocking a specific site or domain and you want to allow
>  > > it because it isn't a spammer.
>  > >
>  > >
>  > >
>  > > Anybody have any idea's or input on this since the manuals really don't
>  > > have anything on fine tuning it?
>  > >
>  > >
>  > >
>  > > **Thanks,**
>  > >
>  > > **My (Alan) Nguyen**
>  > >
>  >
>  > Which instructions?
>  >
>  > I would recommend implementing spamdyke, as it includes greylisting (among
>  > other things), and it will likely be included in the stock v1.4 toaster. 
> I'm
>  > sure that Sam (spamdyke's author) will be helpful in getting it to work in
>  > your environment.
>  >
>  > --
>  > -Eric 'shubes'
>  >
>  > -
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>  >
>
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Re: [qmailtoaster] greylisting

[Phil Leinhauser]

hmmm...  

I'll have to look into it now.

Thanks


-Original message-
From: "Andrew Niemantsverdriet" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Fri, 04 Apr 2008 16:14:19 -0400
To: qmailtoaster-list@qmailtoaster.com
Subject: Re: [qmailtoaster] greylisting

> No Spamassassin and Spamdyke work together. Spamdyke works at SMTP
> level stopping spam at the level so it reduces the amount of work that
> Spamassassin has to do because many of the obvious messages don't make
> it through.
> 
> On Fri, Apr 4, 2008 at 12:50 PM, Phil Leinhauser <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > Is Spamdyke the direction QMT is headed?  Is it better than Spamassasin?
> >
> >  Should Spamassasin be removed before installing spamdyke?
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >  -Original message-
> >  From: Eric Shubert [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >  Date: Fri, 04 Apr 2008 11:58:57 -0400
> >  To: qmailtoaster-list@qmailtoaster.com
> >  Subject: Re: [qmailtoaster] greylisting
> >
> >  > My (Alan) Nguyen wrote:
> >  > > I'm setting up greylisting on my server right now and while reading 
> > over
> >  > > the instructions it appears to be easy to set up,  but there doesn't
> >  > > appear to be any details as to how to fine tune greylisting. If say 
> > your
> >  > > qmail server is blocking a specific site or domain and you want to 
> > allow
> >  > > it because it isn't a spammer.
> >  > >
> >  > >
> >  > >
> >  > > Anybody have any idea's or input on this since the manuals really don't
> >  > > have anything on fine tuning it?
> >  > >
> >  > >
> >  > >
> >  > > **Thanks,**
> >  > >
> >  > > **My (Alan) Nguyen**
> >  > >
> >  >
> >  > Which instructions?
> >  >
> >  > I would recommend implementing spamdyke, as it includes greylisting 
> > (among
> >  > other things), and it will likely be included in the stock v1.4 toaster. 
> > I'm
> >  > sure that Sam (spamdyke's author) will be helpful in getting it to work 
> > in
> >  > your environment.
> >  >
> >  > --
> >  > -Eric 'shubes'
> >  >
> >  > -
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> >  >
> >
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> >
> >
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Re: [qmailtoaster] greylisting warning

[Eric \"Shubes\"]

Erik Espinoza wrote:
> Hey Guys,
> 
> I ran into a problem while testing a greylisting patch from Bill
> Shupp's site. Many of the new antispam appliances and certain
> firewalals are used as a smart host, so it looks as follows:
> 
> Exchange -> antispam appliance -> QmailToaster
> 
> Many of the antispam appliances are having issues with temporary 4xx
> errors, they will not retry later as per the standard. I've run into
> this a few times, and it's always tough to diagnose. Just thought I'd
> put out a notice that if you use greylisting, you may lose valid mail
> because of this.
> 
> Buyer Beware
> 
> Erik
> 

I'm becoming less and less excited about greylisting as time goes by. Still
haven't tried it myself. My present toaster configuration is doing pretty
well without it.

-- 
-Eric 'shubes'

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Re: [qmailtoaster] greylisting implementation

[Erik A. Espinoza]

http://www.kabewm.com/?p=19

Also, greylisting can cause issues with spam appliances. Many of these
spam appliances do not have a large cache and will just take the
temporary rejection as a permanent rejection.

Thanks,
Erik

On 5/9/07, Ron Dyck <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

I'm new to qmailtoaster, though I have been using qmail for a number
of years. I'm now in the process of setting up a new server and have
implemented qmailtoaster.

I'm considering greylisting to cut down on spam and have breifly
looked at a few implementations. Does anyone have suggestions as to
which implementation/experience in set-up etc.?

Regards,

ron

--
=
Ron Dyck
www.webbtech.net
=

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Re: [qmailtoaster] greylisting implementation

[davide bozzelli]

Ron Dyck writes:

I'm new to qmailtoaster, though I have been using qmail for a number
of years. I'm now in the process of setting up a new server and have
implemented qmailtoaster.

I'm considering greylisting to cut down on spam and have breifly
looked at a few implementations. Does anyone have suggestions as to
which implementation/experience in set-up etc.?


-
The implementation available at: 
http://freesoftware.silence.org/spamdyke/ is coded in pure c and so it's 
fast than the other counterparts.


You could choose the localdomains to be greylisted and the remote ip to 
be whitelisted .


Spamdyke gives you also some other useful anti-spam protection ...

Could be useful,

have fun,

Davide

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Re: [qmailtoaster] Greylisting problem

[PakOgah]

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
New QMT installed, everything seems to be running right but, someone told me 
that I am being greylisted. I've noticed many emails don't actually make it to 
hotmail, yahoo, and many others. I was told it's because I am being 
greylisted.


Can someone shed some light on this?

I've also found this but prefer asking the list for input before I go changing 
too much.


http://www.kabewm.com/2007/01/16/basic-qmailtoaster-greylisting/

Mike

  

I am a little confused about your email?

is it email from your server being graylisted when you sent to Yahoo / 
Hotmail ?

If so try to setup SPF record for your domain?
detailed intruction is available on wiki
My experience for YahooMail they have AntiSpam system so every time I 
sent email to yahoo, it stuck in queue for sometime because deffered by 
Yahoo
until I am ask Yahoo to whitelist my servers' IP address (they ask a lot 
of questionare for this)


and for http://www.kabewm.com/2007/01/16/basic-qmailtoaster-greylisting/
it will provide a graylisting on your mailsystem.
so everytime someone sent you email at first time his email will be 
deffered with 451 error



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Re: [qmailtoaster] Greylisting problem

[[EMAIL PROTECTED]]

> Do you have a PTR (reverse) DNS record set up?

Sure do. I have other email servers on my net and they all work fine. It's the
QMT that's having these problems only.

> To get mails to Yahoo you'll have to fill out their form.  If your server
> has been around a long time, you'll be in their list. Otherwise you'll be
> greylisted by them and have to fill out that form.

I've now done that, thanks.

> Hotmail will block you if you do not have a valid PTR record like AOL does
> if I remember correctly.

I've actually gone to the AOL site where they offer a test to see if your
email can make it to their servers. Everything passes.

I'm trying to find more accurate information on setting up QMT at this point.
Specifically, I'm wanting to better understand some of the control files and
how they could affect what is going on. Items such as defaultdomain and
defaulthost and me, plusdomain etc. I've seen plenty of info but it's just not
clear to me if my problems might be related.

Mike



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Re: [qmailtoaster] Greylisting problem

[[EMAIL PROTECTED]]

> if you are using QMT-ISO you need to change several qmail's control file
> other than localhost

Yup, have done this also. What ever is going on, it's either something simple,
or not obvious to me or who knows what :).

I do appreciate your help on this!

Mike



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Re: [qmailtoaster] Greylisting problem

[PakOgah]

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

once I was using apache/php application on intranet machine (on local
network) sending email using smtp of new QMT-ISO box (on public net)
and I get this error
... while talking to mails.myholding.com.:


MAIL From:<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> SIZE=1313
  

<<< 511 sorry, can't find a valid MX for sender domain (#5.1.1 - chkuser)
554 5.0.0 Service unavailable



Well, since it's not actually bouncing and just being deferred, that's not too 
bad at least. It does seem to fail often enough however and I've been ripping 
my hair out trying to figure out why.


I do have MX, SPF and RDNS records for everything.


okay I give up, I dont know what else to suggest you. what I told you 
before resolved my problem. maybe others have another experience about it.
I am just curios, you said this is new QMT server, are you build it 
using qmailtoaster's install script or QMT-ISO ?
if you are using QMT-ISO you need to change several qmail's control file 
other than localhost
otherwise your server's IP will be listed on cbl.abuseat.org (like me 
before) and perhaps Yahoo/gmail/hotmail use CBL
please check this 
http://wiki.qmailtoaster.com/index.php/QMT-ISO_Manual_Guide#Setup_.2Fvar.2Fqmail.2Fcontrol_.27s_files


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Re: [qmailtoaster] Greylisting problem

[[EMAIL PROTECTED]]

>once I was using apache/php application on intranet machine (on local
>network) sending email using smtp of new QMT-ISO box (on public net)
>and I get this error
>... while talking to mails.myholding.com.:
> >>> MAIL From:<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> SIZE=1313
><<< 511 sorry, can't find a valid MX for sender domain (#5.1.1 - chkuser)
>554 5.0.0 Service unavailable

Well, since it's not actually bouncing and just being deferred, that's not too
bad at least. It does seem to fail often enough however and I've been ripping
my hair out trying to figure out why.

I do have MX, SPF and RDNS records for everything. Yet, I keep getting things
like;

To Yahoo,

delivery 239: deferral:
Connected_to_209.191.118.103_but_greeting_failed./Remote_host_said:_
421_Message_from_(x.x.x.250)_temporarily_deferred_-_4.16.50._
Please_refer_to_http://help.yahoo.com/help/us/mail/defer/defer-06.html/

delivery 244: deferral:
Connected_to_216.39.53.3_but_greeting_failed./Remote_host_said:_
421_Message_from_(x.x.x.250)_temporarily_deferred_-_4.16.50._
Please_refer_to_http://help.yahoo.com/help/us/mail/defer/defer-06.html/

delivery 248: deferral:
Connected_to_216.39.53.1_but_greeting_failed./Remote_host_said:_
421_Message_from_(x.x.x.250)_temporarily_deferred_-_4.16.50._
Please_refer_to_http://help.yahoo.com/help/us/mail/defer/defer-06.html/

delivery 259: deferral:
Connected_to_206.190.53.191_but_greeting_failed./Remote_host_said:_
421_Message_from_(x.x.x.250)_temporarily_deferred_-_4.16.50._
Please_refer_to_http://help.yahoo.com/help/us/mail/defer/defer-06.html/

To Hotmail;

delivery 236: deferral:
Connected_to_64.233.163.27_but_connection_died._(#4.4.2)/

Gmail messages and hotmail don't even show up at all and no bounces either.

Mike



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Re: [qmailtoaster] Greylisting problem

[PakOgah]

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

PS: These are examples of messages I am receiving;

To Yahoo,

delivery 239: deferral: 
Connected_to_209.191.118.103_but_greeting_failed./Remote_host_said:_

421_Message_from_(x.x.x.250)_temporarily_deferred_-_4.16.50._
Please_refer_to_http://help.yahoo.com/help/us/mail/defer/defer-06.html/
  
correct, these are the same thing happen when I am installing new server 
with QMT-ISO
Yahoo said it only greylist your server and my server will try again but 
unfortunately they greylist to fast

within 1 day I get more than 50 of these error
follow the link my dear friend
you will find a form to filled to contact Yahoo Admin. (it require 
Yahoo's account to access it)

http://help.yahoo.com/fast/help/us/mail/cgi_defer
and choose Yahoo! Mail Errors and Problems Form

fill out the form once and wait 2-3 days for response
if no response, fill it again and a day for response
no response again? this time you have to fill it as you very need them, 
desperate, use foul language, yell...

what ever to get their attention. until finally the email back to you.
or do you want email Yahoo directly ??

use it
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

good luck!!!


To Hotmail;

delivery 236: deferral: 
Connected_to_64.233.163.27_but_connection_died._(#4.4.2)/
  
I never experience with Hotmail, dont have friends or users with 
Hotmail's account



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Re: [qmailtoaster] Greylisting problem

[[EMAIL PROTECTED]]

PS: These are examples of messages I am receiving;

To Yahoo,

delivery 239: deferral:
Connected_to_209.191.118.103_but_greeting_failed./Remote_host_said:_
421_Message_from_(x.x.x.250)_temporarily_deferred_-_4.16.50._
Please_refer_to_http://help.yahoo.com/help/us/mail/defer/defer-06.html/


To Hotmail;

delivery 236: deferral:
Connected_to_64.233.163.27_but_connection_died._(#4.4.2)/



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Re: [qmailtoaster] Greylisting problem

[PakOgah]

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:


For example, apache/php 
applications that use this new server to send sign up emails out definitely 
mostly have these issues. On the other hand, users who have email accounts on 
that same server can send out to those domains without deferrals.


  
once I was using apache/php application on intranet machine (on local 
network) sending email using smtp of new QMT-ISO box (on public net)

and I get this error
... while talking to mails.myholding.com.:
>>> MAIL From:<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> SIZE=1313
<<< 511 sorry, can't find a valid MX for sender domain (#5.1.1 - chkuser)
554 5.0.0 Service unavailable

until finally I add my machine A record on DNS server, the application 
can use QMT to sending email again


http://am3n.profusehost.net/post/index/73/511-sorry-cant-find-a-valid-MX-for-sender-domain-511--chkuser

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Re: [qmailtoaster] Greylisting problem

[[EMAIL PROTECTED]]

>I am a little confused about your email? is it email from your server being
>graylisted when you sent to Yahoo / Hotmail ?

Yes, I thought I did say it was coming from the new server I built. Outgoing
to yahoo for example immediately is deferred from this server but not another
one on my network. Email to hotmail just plain disappears a lot, there is
never even a bounce.

I'm happy to list what ever I need to the list so that someone can help me.
The problem seems to be that remote servers see email sent from other machines
on my network as being relayed or something. For example, apache/php
applications that use this new server to send sign up emails out definitely
mostly have these issues. On the other hand, users who have email accounts on
that same server can send out to those domains without deferrals.

>If so try to setup SPF record for your domain? detailed intruction is
>available on wiki

I do have spf set up for my dns servers but I've left QMT at level 1 since any
higher just keeps getting bounces. At a low level, the receiver at least sees
that I am using spf and seems to allow the mail more often than not.

>My experience for YahooMail they have AntiSpam system so every time I
>sent email to yahoo, it stuck in queue for sometime because deffered by
>Yahoo until I am ask Yahoo to whitelist my servers' IP address (they ask

I may have to do that but it would only be for this new server. That's why I
thought I would ask here to get some ideas before changing too many things or
contacting various sites.

Mike



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Re: [qmailtoaster] Greylisting problem

[Jake Vickers]

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:




Well, since it's not actually bouncing and just being deferred, that's not too 
bad at least. It does seem to fail often enough however and I've been ripping 
my hair out trying to figure out why.


I do have MX, SPF and RDNS records for everything. Yet, I keep getting things 
like;


To Yahoo,

delivery 239: deferral: 
Connected_to_209.191.118.103_but_greeting_failed./Remote_host_said:_

421_Message_from_(x.x.x.250)_temporarily_deferred_-_4.16.50._
Please_refer_to_http://help.yahoo.com/help/us/mail/defer/defer-06.html/

delivery 244: deferral: 
Connected_to_216.39.53.3_but_greeting_failed./Remote_host_said:_

421_Message_from_(x.x.x.250)_temporarily_deferred_-_4.16.50._
Please_refer_to_http://help.yahoo.com/help/us/mail/defer/defer-06.html/
  


Do you have a PTR (reverse) DNS record set up?
To get mails to Yahoo you'll have to fill out their form.  If your 
server has been around a long time, you'll be in their list. Otherwise 
you'll be greylisted by them and have to fill out that form.
Hotmail will block you if you do not have a valid PTR record like AOL 
does if I remember correctly.
When you contact Yahoo, also let them know they are sending a link that 
no longer exists in their defer messages - that can get annoying fast.




smime.p7s
Description: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature

Re: [qmailtoaster] Greylisting evaluation for QMT

[Erik Espinoza]

Hey Eric,

The drawbacks are not correct, here are more to go with what you have.

- Typical retry after soft rejection for most smtp servers is 4 hrs,
so one will wait 4 hrs for every e-mail to be delivered.
- False positives generated by: Novell Groupwise 6.0, ISMail 1.7.1 and
prior, InterMail 4.0, Kerio MailServer 5.0.5
- Mail may get dropped if trifecta isn't matched (ip address, sender
address, recipient address). This happens a lot on big isps that that
have multiple outgoing mail servers. (AOL, Gmail, Hotmail, Yahoo!,
etc).
- Troubleshooting nightmare for newbie users (face it, a big chunk of
the QmailToaster audience has trouble installing the QmailToaster, I
can only imagine what soft rejecting all incoming mail is going to do
to this poor list . . .)

I strongly oppose Greylisting, but I think I've made myself clear.

Thanks,
Erik


On 7/16/06, Eric Shubes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

Thanks to Erik for pointing me in the right direction and getting me
started on this. I don't know if this will materialize or not, but
here's what I've found to this point.

Greylisting has reportedly had much success in the spam war. There are
benefits, but there are also drawbacks. There are many web references
which discuss the situation. Here is a brief summary:

Benefits:
.) spam is rejected at the smtp layer, which translates into substantial
savings in bandwidth and server resources (load)
.) very high rate of rejection (at least for now)
.) little impact on users and administrators to implement
.) no false positives

Drawbacks (summary):
.) delay in receiving first-time correspondence
.) first-time becomes every-time for some list mailers, ezmlm in particular
.) all mail servers in a domain must implement greylisting for it to be
effective

While greylisting is not a replacement for existing spam fighting tools,
it's a nice addition to the arsenal and makes some existing tools more
effective. While the drawbacks are considerable, there are ways of
dealing with them that are manageable. I've concluded that I'd like to
see greylisting as a feature of the Toaster.

I proceeded to search for existing greylist software that would fit well
in the Toaster. There are a lot of solutions available (I won't go into
details here), but only one that I thing might fit well with the
Toaster. It's available from Bill Shupp (http://www.shupp.org), who made
the qmail and clamav patches.

Bill notes on his website that this patch is EXPERIMENTAL. Has anyone
here experimented with it at all? Is there any reason why we (I?)
shouldn't give it a try?

I also found a nice additional patch at http://www.dewmill.com/qmail.html
which apparently allows for per-user control of virus scanning,
greylisting, and acceptable recepients. I'd like to see this patch added
in conjunction with greylisting. It would allow for easier phased-in
implementation of greylisting, while providing other per-user tailoring
as well.

Erik mentioned previously that most qmail greylisting patches do not
work properly in conjunction with smtp-auth. Does anyone know if this
also the case or not with these patches?

I'm interested to know what anyone thinks of this (especially J/E/N). I
don't want to delve further into this without some sort of group
consensus. TIA for your input.

P.S. The problem with ezmlm will be taken up later in a separate thread.
It may or may not still be a concern, but has no bearing on implementing
greylisting with qmail (the toaster).

--
-Eric 'shubes'

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Re: [qmailtoaster] Greylisting evaluation for QMT

[Eric \"Shubes\"]

Erik Espinoza wrote:

Hey Eric,

The drawbacks are not correct, here are more to go with what you have.


I believe the drawbacks I listed are correct. Which one is not?
I didn't intend my list to be exhaustive, however I did unintentionally 
omit the one about server farms.



- Typical retry after soft rejection for most smtp servers is 4 hrs,
so one will wait 4 hrs for every e-mail to be delivered.


Not according what I've read.
If the parameter for waiting (recommended 1 hour) is reduced to as 
little as 10 seconds (I think I'd try 30-60 seconds), then the wait is 
reduced to an acceptable period, typically only a few minutes. Note, 
this applies only to the first email for the triplet. All subsequent 
email suffers no delay (other than looking up the triplet in the database).



- False positives generated by: Novell Groupwise 6.0, ISMail 1.7.1 and
prior, InterMail 4.0, Kerio MailServer 5.0.5


I didn't come across any references to this. Will you point one out so I 
can look into it?



- Mail may get dropped if trifecta isn't matched (ip address, sender
address, recipient address). This happens a lot on big isps that that
have multiple outgoing mail servers. (AOL, Gmail, Hotmail, Yahoo!,
etc).


These mailers can easily be whitelisted.


- Troubleshooting nightmare for newbie users (face it, a big chunk of
the QmailToaster audience has trouble installing the QmailToaster, I
can only imagine what soft rejecting all incoming mail is going to do
to this poor list . . .)


There are indeed troubleshooting issues with the toaster as it is, 
particularly the fact that messages are bounced with no log messages. I 
find that to be a major deficiency.


These troubleshooting issues should certainly be addressed, and perhaps 
with a higher priority than greylisting, but they should not be used as 
an excuse for not adding desirable features.



I strongly oppose Greylisting, but I think I've made myself clear.


You may, and you have. Just because greylisting might be available 
doesn't mean you have to use it. If it weren't tailorable, I'd be 
opposed to it too. However, there might be others of us who would like 
it to be included in the toaster. One size does not fit all. I think it 
would be a valuable feature to have in the toaster.


I'll be waiting to see what J/N think about it.

Thanks for your input. I hope this doesn't cause any contention.


Thanks,
Erik


On 7/16/06, Eric Shubes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

Thanks to Erik for pointing me in the right direction and getting me
started on this. I don't know if this will materialize or not, but
here's what I've found to this point.

Greylisting has reportedly had much success in the spam war. There are
benefits, but there are also drawbacks. There are many web references
which discuss the situation. Here is a brief summary:

Benefits:
.) spam is rejected at the smtp layer, which translates into substantial
savings in bandwidth and server resources (load)
.) very high rate of rejection (at least for now)
.) little impact on users and administrators to implement
.) no false positives

Drawbacks (summary):
.) delay in receiving first-time correspondence
.) first-time becomes every-time for some list mailers, ezmlm in 
particular

.) all mail servers in a domain must implement greylisting for it to be
effective

While greylisting is not a replacement for existing spam fighting tools,
it's a nice addition to the arsenal and makes some existing tools more
effective. While the drawbacks are considerable, there are ways of
dealing with them that are manageable. I've concluded that I'd like to
see greylisting as a feature of the Toaster.

I proceeded to search for existing greylist software that would fit well
in the Toaster. There are a lot of solutions available (I won't go into
details here), but only one that I thing might fit well with the
Toaster. It's available from Bill Shupp (http://www.shupp.org), who made
the qmail and clamav patches.

Bill notes on his website that this patch is EXPERIMENTAL. Has anyone
here experimented with it at all? Is there any reason why we (I?)
shouldn't give it a try?

I also found a nice additional patch at http://www.dewmill.com/qmail.html
which apparently allows for per-user control of virus scanning,
greylisting, and acceptable recepients. I'd like to see this patch added
in conjunction with greylisting. It would allow for easier phased-in
implementation of greylisting, while providing other per-user tailoring
as well.

Erik mentioned previously that most qmail greylisting patches do not
work properly in conjunction with smtp-auth. Does anyone know if this
also the case or not with these patches?

I'm interested to know what anyone thinks of this (especially J/E/N). I
don't want to delve further into this without some sort of group
consensus. TIA for your input.

P.S. The problem with ezmlm will be taken up later in a separate thread.
It may or may not still be a concern, but has no bearing on implementing
greylisting

Re: [qmailtoaster] Greylisting evaluation for QMT

[Erik Espinoza]

> - Typical retry after soft rejection for most smtp servers is 4 hrs,
> so one will wait 4 hrs for every e-mail to be delivered.

Not according what I've read.
If the parameter for waiting (recommended 1 hour) is reduced to as
little as 10 seconds (I think I'd try 30-60 seconds), then the wait is
reduced to an acceptable period, typically only a few minutes. Note,
this applies only to the first email for the triplet. All subsequent
email suffers no delay (other than looking up the triplet in the database).


You are correct that the recommended waiting period is 1 hour, the 4
hour is after the second rejection. The default for sendmail (IE 75%
of mail servers) will wait 1 hour. First time mail coming in will be
delayed up to an hour, once the triplet is in the db, it will go back
to normal speed. FYI, all of the implementations of greylisting that I
have seen tend to delete the triplet from the db after a couple of
hours. This would mean that every e-mail would eventually be
susceptible to the 1 hour delay.


> - False positives generated by: Novell Groupwise 6.0, ISMail 1.7.1 and
> prior, InterMail 4.0, Kerio MailServer 5.0.5

I didn't come across any references to this. Will you point one out so I
can look into it?


http://projects.puremagic.com/greylisting/


> - Mail may get dropped if trifecta isn't matched (ip address, sender
> address, recipient address). This happens a lot on big isps that that
> have multiple outgoing mail servers. (AOL, Gmail, Hotmail, Yahoo!,
> etc).

These mailers can easily be whitelisted.


Sounds like a lot of overhead and a lot of missed e-mail while you
write your whitelists.


> - Troubleshooting nightmare for newbie users (face it, a big chunk of
> the QmailToaster audience has trouble installing the QmailToaster, I
> can only imagine what soft rejecting all incoming mail is going to do
> to this poor list . . .)

There are indeed troubleshooting issues with the toaster as it is,
particularly the fact that messages are bounced with no log messages. I
find that to be a major deficiency.


I've never seen this. Care to clarify? Usually if mail is rejected by
simscan I see a log in the smtp log. If there is a virus I see mail
rejected in the clamav. More information would be appreciated. Perhaps
it's because I've disabled the Warlord stuff by blanking the
badmimetypes/badloadertypes stuff since it always felt like Voodoo to
me.


These troubleshooting issues should certainly be addressed, and perhaps
with a higher priority than greylisting, but they should not be used as
an excuse for not adding desirable features.


I agree. Please let me know if there are any ways to replicate this.


> I strongly oppose Greylisting, but I think I've made myself clear.

You may, and you have. Just because greylisting might be available
doesn't mean you have to use it. If it weren't tailorable, I'd be
opposed to it too. However, there might be others of us who would like
it to be included in the toaster. One size does not fit all. I think it
would be a valuable feature to have in the toaster.


Thanks.. :)

I strongly oppose it, but that doesn't mean that someone doesn't have
more information than I do. And I'm not one to change my mind when
things make sense. In the meantime, I will look to see if any of these
lend themselves to being turned off. It seems that most greylisting
mail systems suffer from one (or all) of the following problems:

* Experimental
* Breaks SMTP-AUTH
* Always on


I'll be waiting to see what J/N think about it.


I do too :) perhaps they have another take.


Thanks for your input. I hope this doesn't cause any contention.


Naw man, just healthy discussion. I personally prefer this stuff since
it means that more of the community is taking in interest in the
future of the QmailToaster. This project needs more feedback.

Nick, Jake and I try to do what is "best" for the project, sometimes
without the input that we should. A lot of it is that a call for input
tends to fall on deaf ears. For example I've asked about
reproducibility of some bugs or feedback on the virtual appliance and
have gotten no feedback.

Thanks,
Erik

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Re: [qmailtoaster] Greylisting evaluation for QMT

[Eric \"Shubes\"]

Erik Espinoza wrote:


You are correct that the recommended waiting period is 1 hour, the 4
hour is after the second rejection. The default for sendmail (IE 75%
of mail servers) will wait 1 hour. First time mail coming in will be
delayed up to an hour, once the triplet is in the db, it will go back
to normal speed.


I think this would be the worst case scenario. As greylisting has become 
more prevalent, I'd expect the wait time to be reduced as mail 
administrators tune their systems. Kerio, for example, defaults to 30 
minutes.



FYI, all of the implementations of greylisting that I
have seen tend to delete the triplet from the db after a couple of
hours. This would mean that every e-mail would eventually be
susceptible to the 1 hour delay.


That won't happen with ours! ;) That obviously defeats the purpose.

I think that maybe you saw a script which runs every couple hours (daily 
would suffice). It doesn't clean them all out, only ones older than a 
parameter-specified number of days. The last-used-date-time data is 
stored along with the triplet in the database.


I even think that the (initial) recommended time to live for triplet 
records of 36 days is a bit short. I sometimes communicate with people I 
haven't heard from in several months. I think I'd use a parameter more 
like 13 months! Maybe that's excessive.


At any rate, I'm very sensitive to the delay factor - don't like it one 
bit. Mostly when signing up for stuff and an email confirmation is 
required. I could live with (but wouldn't like) an hour, but I'd much 
prefer something closer to 1-5 minutes. I think I saw something 
somewhere that indicated it should be at least 30 seconds to let the 
smtp session time out. I might be mistaken on this.



> - False positives generated by: Novell Groupwise 6.0, ISMail 1.7.1 and
> prior, InterMail 4.0, Kerio MailServer 5.0.5

I didn't come across any references to this. Will you point one out so I
can look into it?


http://projects.puremagic.com/greylisting/



This data is well over two years old, when greylisting was new.
Since then:
.) Groupwise has been fixed, v6.5 12/05 and v7.0 9/05. See
http://www.rhyolite.com/pipermail/dcc/2006/003033.html
.) ISMail v1.8 supports greylisting since 10/04
.) InterMail 4.0 predates RFC2821! Intermail is no longer available and 
support has been discontinued.

.) Kerio complies with RFC2821 as of 5/06, don't know how long before.

So, as of this point in time, all of these (RFC 2821) non-compliant mail 
servers have been fixed with the exception of InterMail, which is 
defunct. If anyone is still using any of these obsolete servers, they 
really need to upgrade. I doubt that there are very many still running, 
given the growing use of greylisting in the past 2 years.


BTW, these were standards non-comliances, not false positives. ;)


> - Mail may get dropped if trifecta isn't matched (ip address, sender
> address, recipient address). This happens a lot on big isps that that
> have multiple outgoing mail servers. (AOL, Gmail, Hotmail, Yahoo!,
> etc).

These mailers can easily be whitelisted.


Sounds like a lot of overhead and a lot of missed e-mail while you
write your whitelists.


Very little email is actually missed (or lost) in this situation. It 
depends on the number of servers in the farm and how they balance the load.


Overhead would be minimal, and insignificant. Much more overhead is 
involved with storing and retrieving the triplets.


Writing the whitelists would be fairly trivial. You've already got a 
good start, ;) and my bet is that there are already whitelists available 
on the 'net.



> - Troubleshooting nightmare for newbie users (face it, a big chunk of
> the QmailToaster audience has trouble installing the QmailToaster, I
> can only imagine what soft rejecting all incoming mail is going to do
> to this poor list . . .)

There are indeed troubleshooting issues with the toaster as it is,
particularly the fact that messages are bounced with no log messages. I
find that to be a major deficiency.


I've never seen this. Care to clarify? Usually if mail is rejected by
simscan I see a log in the smtp log. If there is a virus I see mail
rejected in the clamav. More information would be appreciated. Perhaps
it's because I've disabled the Warlord stuff by blanking the
badmimetypes/badloadertypes stuff since it always felt like Voodoo to
me.


These troubleshooting issues should certainly be addressed, and perhaps
with a higher priority than greylisting, but they should not be used as
an excuse for not adding desirable features.


I agree. Please let me know if there are any ways to replicate this.



I had two scenarios. I'll start other threads on the list for them.


> I strongly oppose Greylisting, but I think I've made myself clear.

You may, and you have. Just because greylisting might be available
doesn't mean you have to use it. If it weren't tailorable, I'd be
opposed to it too. However, there might be others of us who would like
it

Re: [qmailtoaster] Greylisting evaluation for QMT

[Yeak Nai Siew]

Hi Eric and also Erik. :-)

I would like to share my experience of using greylitsing.
> 
> I proceeded to search for existing greylist software that would fit well
> in the Toaster. There are a lot of solutions available (I won't go into
> details here), but only one that I thing might fit well with the
> Toaster. It's available from Bill Shupp (http://www.shupp.org), who made
> the qmail and clamav patches.
> 
> Bill notes on his website that this patch is EXPERIMENTAL. Has anyone
> here experimented with it at all? Is there any reason why we (I?)
> shouldn't give it a try?
> 

Yes, I used Bill Shupp patch on my old Qmail (not qumailtoaster) and it
had been running for at least 3 months. No problem at all. The way I set
the rule is based on Postgrey standard (the greylisting for Postfix).
Their rule is to reject first ever received mail for 300 seconds. Then
the rule is valid for the next 33 days.

I also used the cronjob to clear the database for maintenance purpose.

I also used Bill Shupp patch on my Qmailtoaster. It worked well too. But
I removed it after 1 month of using because I start to see complain
"missing" mail. This may not be the patch issue because I haven't found
the log to confirm it (there were other issues with missing mail that I
was facing at that time).

The only problem I have with Bill Shupp patch is the management of the
greylisting rule, which is in MySQL (while I can use phpmyadmin, but a
bit tedious). There should be some userlevel command to let us configure
or change settings. Web-based incorporated into qmailadmin would be nice
as it can let the user to change their own settings.

Thanks.


-- 
Yeak Nai Siew[ Your Open Source Partner ]
System Consultant

My Directory Sdn Bhd (487437-D)
#34-03 Menara Dion, 27 Jalan Sultan Ismail
50250 Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia
tel +603 20704278  fax +603 20704281  http://www.md.com.my

LINUX SUPPORT | ENTERPRISE EMAIL | OPEN SOURCE TECHNOLOGY

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Re: [qmailtoaster] Greylisting evaluation for QMT

[Erik Espinoza]

Hello Yeak,

Thanks for the feedback. One quick question, did the Shupp patch work
with SMTP-AUTH?

Thanks,
Erik

On 7/16/06, Yeak Nai Siew <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

Hi Eric and also Erik. :-)

I would like to share my experience of using greylitsing.
>
> I proceeded to search for existing greylist software that would fit well
> in the Toaster. There are a lot of solutions available (I won't go into
> details here), but only one that I thing might fit well with the
> Toaster. It's available from Bill Shupp (http://www.shupp.org), who made
> the qmail and clamav patches.
>
> Bill notes on his website that this patch is EXPERIMENTAL. Has anyone
> here experimented with it at all? Is there any reason why we (I?)
> shouldn't give it a try?
>

Yes, I used Bill Shupp patch on my old Qmail (not qumailtoaster) and it
had been running for at least 3 months. No problem at all. The way I set
the rule is based on Postgrey standard (the greylisting for Postfix).
Their rule is to reject first ever received mail for 300 seconds. Then
the rule is valid for the next 33 days.

I also used the cronjob to clear the database for maintenance purpose.

I also used Bill Shupp patch on my Qmailtoaster. It worked well too. But
I removed it after 1 month of using because I start to see complain
"missing" mail. This may not be the patch issue because I haven't found
the log to confirm it (there were other issues with missing mail that I
was facing at that time).

The only problem I have with Bill Shupp patch is the management of the
greylisting rule, which is in MySQL (while I can use phpmyadmin, but a
bit tedious). There should be some userlevel command to let us configure
or change settings. Web-based incorporated into qmailadmin would be nice
as it can let the user to change their own settings.

Thanks.


--
Yeak Nai Siew[ Your Open Source Partner ]
System Consultant

My Directory Sdn Bhd (487437-D)
#34-03 Menara Dion, 27 Jalan Sultan Ismail
50250 Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia
tel +603 20704278  fax +603 20704281  http://www.md.com.my

LINUX SUPPORT | ENTERPRISE EMAIL | OPEN SOURCE TECHNOLOGY

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Re: [qmailtoaster] Greylisting evaluation for QMT

[Anatoly A. Pedemonte Ku]

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Hello all

Interesting the investigation of Dewmill.com. It is an interesting
functionality if it were gotten up in QT

Best  regards...

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 Móvil: 511.97167435
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Eric "Shubes" escribió:
> Thanks to Erik for pointing me in the right direction and getting me
> started on this. I don't know if this will materialize or not, but
> here's what I've found to this point.
>
> Greylisting has reportedly had much success in the spam war. There
> are benefits, but there are also drawbacks. There are many web
> references which discuss the situation. Here is a brief summary:
>
> Benefits:
> .) spam is rejected at the smtp layer, which translates into
> substantial savings in bandwidth and server resources (load)
> .) very high rate of rejection (at least for now)
> .) little impact on users and administrators to implement
> .) no false positives
>
> Drawbacks (summary):
> .) delay in receiving first-time correspondence
> .) first-time becomes every-time for some list mailers, ezmlm in
> particular
> .) all mail servers in a domain must implement greylisting for it to
> be effective
>
> While greylisting is not a replacement for existing spam fighting
> tools, it's a nice addition to the arsenal and makes some existing
> tools more effective. While the drawbacks are considerable, there
> are ways of dealing with them that are manageable. I've concluded
> that I'd like to see greylisting as a feature of the Toaster.
>
> I proceeded to search for existing greylist software that would fit
> well in the Toaster. There are a lot of solutions available (I won't
> go into details here), but only one that I thing might fit well with
> the Toaster. It's available from Bill Shupp (http://www.shupp.org),
> who made the qmail and clamav patches.
>
> Bill notes on his website that this patch is EXPERIMENTAL. Has
> anyone here experimented with it at all? Is ther

Re: [qmailtoaster] Greylisting evaluation for QMT

[Yeak Nai Siew]

Yes, it work with SMTP AUTH.

The patch was not applied directly. I have to modify the patch manually
based on the given patch and create a new patch.

I try to find that out and email you to have a look.



Erik Espinoza wrote:
> Hello Yeak,
> 
> Thanks for the feedback. One quick question, did the Shupp patch work
> with SMTP-AUTH?
> 
> Thanks,
> Erik
> 
> On 7/16/06, Yeak Nai Siew <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> Hi Eric and also Erik. :-)
>>
>> I would like to share my experience of using greylitsing.
>> >
>> > I proceeded to search for existing greylist software that would fit
>> well
>> > in the Toaster. There are a lot of solutions available (I won't go into
>> > details here), but only one that I thing might fit well with the
>> > Toaster. It's available from Bill Shupp (http://www.shupp.org), who
>> made
>> > the qmail and clamav patches.
>> >
>> > Bill notes on his website that this patch is EXPERIMENTAL. Has anyone
>> > here experimented with it at all? Is there any reason why we (I?)
>> > shouldn't give it a try?
>> >
>>
>> Yes, I used Bill Shupp patch on my old Qmail (not qumailtoaster) and it
>> had been running for at least 3 months. No problem at all. The way I set
>> the rule is based on Postgrey standard (the greylisting for Postfix).
>> Their rule is to reject first ever received mail for 300 seconds. Then
>> the rule is valid for the next 33 days.
>>
>> I also used the cronjob to clear the database for maintenance purpose.
>>
>> I also used Bill Shupp patch on my Qmailtoaster. It worked well too. But
>> I removed it after 1 month of using because I start to see complain
>> "missing" mail. This may not be the patch issue because I haven't found
>> the log to confirm it (there were other issues with missing mail that I
>> was facing at that time).
>>
>> The only problem I have with Bill Shupp patch is the management of the
>> greylisting rule, which is in MySQL (while I can use phpmyadmin, but a
>> bit tedious). There should be some userlevel command to let us configure
>> or change settings. Web-based incorporated into qmailadmin would be nice
>> as it can let the user to change their own settings.
>>
>> Thanks.
>>
>>
>> -- 
>> Yeak Nai Siew[ Your Open Source Partner ]
>> System Consultant
>>
>> My Directory Sdn Bhd (487437-D)
>> #34-03 Menara Dion, 27 Jalan Sultan Ismail
>> 50250 Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia
>> tel +603 20704278  fax +603 20704281  http://www.md.com.my
>>
>> LINUX SUPPORT | ENTERPRISE EMAIL | OPEN SOURCE TECHNOLOGY
>>
>> -
>>  QmailToaster hosted by: VR Hosted 
>> -
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>> For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>>
>>
> 
> -
> QmailToaster hosted by: VR Hosted 
> -
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> 

-- 
Yeak Nai Siew[ Your Open Source Partner ]
System Consultant

My Directory Sdn Bhd (487437-D)
#34-03 Menara Dion, 27 Jalan Sultan Ismail
50250 Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia
tel +603 20704278  fax +603 20704281  http://www.md.com.my

LINUX SUPPORT | ENTERPRISE EMAIL | OPEN SOURCE TECHNOLOGY

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 QmailToaster hosted by: VR Hosted 
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To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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Re: [qmailtoaster] Greylisting - What is possible in Qmail-Toaster?

[Eric Shubert]

Mike Canty wrote:

Can anyone please let me know what is available for "Greylisting" with
Qmail-Toaster

Cheers

Mike Canty

Mike Canty

IT Operations Manager



One word: spamdyke. Does greylisting and a whole lot more.

--
-Eric 'shubes'


-
Qmailtoaster is sponsored by Vickers Consulting Group 
(www.vickersconsulting.com)
   Vickers Consulting Group offers Qmailtoaster support and installations.
 If you need professional help with your setup, contact them today!
-
Please visit qmailtoaster.com for the latest news, updates, and packages.

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Re: [qmailtoaster] Greylisting - What is possible in Qmail-Toaster?

[Eric Shubert]

Mike Canty wrote:

Can anyone please let me know what is available for "Greylisting" with
Qmail-Toaster

Cheers

Mike Canty

Mike Canty

IT Operations Manager



qtp-install-spamdyke is in qmailtoaster-plus package. See the QTP site 
and the wiki for more, and you might need to reference the documentation 
at spamdyke.org.



--
-Eric 'shubes'


-
Qmailtoaster is sponsored by Vickers Consulting Group 
(www.vickersconsulting.com)
   Vickers Consulting Group offers Qmailtoaster support and installations.
 If you need professional help with your setup, contact them today!
-
Please visit qmailtoaster.com for the latest news, updates, and packages.

 To unsubscribe, e-mail: qmailtoaster-list-unsubscr...@qmailtoaster.com

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Re: [qmailtoaster] Greylisting - What is possible in Qmail-Toaster?

[Eric Shubert]

Be sure to read through http://wiki.qmailtoaster.com/index.php/Spamdyke, 
and use the README file for the nitty gritty.


Mike Canty wrote:

Eric,
Once again, thanks for your assistance.

I had already installed qtp, but I needed to run the qtp-install-spamdyke
script to activate.

Cheers

-Original Message-
From: news [mailto:n...@ger.gmane.org] On Behalf Of Eric Shubert
Sent: Wednesday, 12 August 2009 10:46 AM
To: qmailtoaster-list@qmailtoaster.com
Subject: Re: [qmailtoaster] Greylisting - What is possible in Qmail-Toaster?

Mike Canty wrote:

Can anyone please let me know what is available for "Greylisting" with
Qmail-Toaster

Cheers

Mike Canty

Mike Canty

IT Operations Manager



qtp-install-spamdyke is in qmailtoaster-plus package. See the QTP site 
and the wiki for more, and you might need to reference the documentation 
at spamdyke.org.






--
-Eric 'shubes'


-
Qmailtoaster is sponsored by Vickers Consulting Group 
(www.vickersconsulting.com)
   Vickers Consulting Group offers Qmailtoaster support and installations.
 If you need professional help with your setup, contact them today!
-
Please visit qmailtoaster.com for the latest news, updates, and packages.

 To unsubscribe, e-mail: qmailtoaster-list-unsubscr...@qmailtoaster.com

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RE: [qmailtoaster] Greylisting - What is possible in Qmail-Toaster?

[Mike Canty]

Eric,
Once again, thanks for your assistance.

I had already installed qtp, but I needed to run the qtp-install-spamdyke
script to activate.

Cheers

-Original Message-
From: news [mailto:n...@ger.gmane.org] On Behalf Of Eric Shubert
Sent: Wednesday, 12 August 2009 10:46 AM
To: qmailtoaster-list@qmailtoaster.com
Subject: Re: [qmailtoaster] Greylisting - What is possible in Qmail-Toaster?

Mike Canty wrote:
> Can anyone please let me know what is available for "Greylisting" with
> Qmail-Toaster
> 
> Cheers
> 
> Mike Canty
> 
> Mike Canty
> 
> IT Operations Manager
> 

qtp-install-spamdyke is in qmailtoaster-plus package. See the QTP site 
and the wiki for more, and you might need to reference the documentation 
at spamdyke.org.


-- 
-Eric 'shubes'



-
Qmailtoaster is sponsored by Vickers Consulting Group
(www.vickersconsulting.com)
Vickers Consulting Group offers Qmailtoaster support and installations.
  If you need professional help with your setup, contact them today!

-
 Please visit qmailtoaster.com for the latest news, updates, and
packages.
 
  To unsubscribe, e-mail: qmailtoaster-list-unsubscr...@qmailtoaster.com
 For additional commands, e-mail:
qmailtoaster-list-h...@qmailtoaster.com




-
Qmailtoaster is sponsored by Vickers Consulting Group 
(www.vickersconsulting.com)
Vickers Consulting Group offers Qmailtoaster support and installations.
  If you need professional help with your setup, contact them today!
-
 Please visit qmailtoaster.com for the latest news, updates, and packages.
 
  To unsubscribe, e-mail: qmailtoaster-list-unsubscr...@qmailtoaster.com
 For additional commands, e-mail: qmailtoaster-list-h...@qmailtoaster.com