Re: [RBW] Re: Any benefits to the longer CS's?

['Mojo' via RBW Owners Bunch]

I have saved chain fragments from decades of riding on bikes with too short 
chainstays. If anyone needs chain fragments for 7/8 or 9 speed chains to get 
started I can mail them. No cost. But it'll probably be the slow mail choice.

Joe in GJT

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Re: [RBW] Re: Any benefits to the longer CS's?

[Steve Palincsar]

On 07/01/2016 04:52 PM, Bill Lindsay wrote:
Never buy a tandem, then!  You'll need three chains for one of those. 
 Two for the timing chain and one for the driving chain.  Don't even 
get me started on tandems where the captain crankset has the drivechain.



Absolutely no worries about angularity and cross-chaining with a set up 
like that!  That's how my first tandem was, with a hand-made child 
stoker adapter.


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[RBW] Re: Any benefits to the longer CS's?

[Bill Lindsay]

Never buy a tandem, then!  You'll need three chains for one of those.  Two 
for the timing chain and one for the driving chain.  Don't even get me 
started on tandems where the captain crankset has the drivechain.  

On Friday, July 1, 2016 at 10:21:09 AM UTC-7, Eric wrote:
>
> If I have to use two chains...count me out! 
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Any benefits to the longer CS's?

[Joe Bernard]

There's a plethora of cargo bikes and recumbents out there with long 
chains..it's just a thing you deal with for the benefits of a longbike. And 
those benefits are real: My New Blue Appaloosa exhibits a lovely "sitting in 
the bike, not on top of it" feel, and tracks straight as a freight train on 
fast descents, while retaining responsive steering at ride-around-town speeds. 
I dig long stays. 

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Re: [RBW] Re: Any benefits to the longer CS's?

[Grant Petersen]

It's one chain, just more links. Most chains come 114 or 116 links. The
60cm Cheviot has a 56cm chainstay (our longest) and typically uses 123
links...so, to be clear, eradicate all heads of visions of double chain
shenannigans. It is true that when you buy a boxe chains you have to buy
two of them. But you use only ten links of the second (about 8 percent of
it), so for the next eleven chain changes, you can buy just one chain &
keep using the surplus from the first second chain.

This next is a minor point, but a longer chainstay reduces chain angles and
so minimizes friction and makes any chain last longer.  Anyway, the ride
and function should trump the cost of an extra chain that'll continue to
feed to stubs of it for a decade or more!
We can still count you out, Eric--easy come/easy go--but I thought this
point was worth clarifying.
G


On Fri, Jul 1, 2016 at 10:21 AM, Eric  wrote:

> If I have to use two chains...count me out!
>
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[RBW] Re: Any benefits to the longer CS's?

[Garth]

:)   Ahahaha !   Not really of course, more like one extra chain would last 
you for quite a few link add ons to a another new chain. 


On Friday, July 1, 2016 at 1:21:09 PM UTC-4, Eric wrote:
>
> If I have to use two chains...count me out! 
>

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[RBW] Re: Any benefits to the longer CS's?

[Eric]

If I have to use two chains...count me out! 

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Re: [RBW] Re: Any benefits to the longer CS's?

[Deacon Patrick]

Fittings occasions will doubtless be plentiful for brilliant, 
self-effacing, dry witted cranksters! Grin.

With abandon,
Patrick

On Friday, July 1, 2016 at 7:56:36 AM UTC-6, Grant @ Rivendell wrote:
>
> "Rocks in the top of the engine" is a phantastik fraze---I just wish it 
> were more versatile so I could plug it in here and there during the day.
>
> On Thu, Jun 30, 2016 at 6:42 PM, Deacon Patrick  > wrote:
>
>> Doesn't it all depend on how many rocks are in the top of the engine? I'm 
>> top heavy just because of all the granite between my ears! Grin.
>>
>> With abandon,
>> Patrick
>>
>>
>> On Thursday, June 30, 2016 at 7:26:53 PM UTC-6, Mark in Beacon wrote:
>>>
>>> Steve, from here it looks like you are at the exact midpoint between 
>>> your basic unicycle and your tandem recumbent. (Maybe a *smidge* toward 
>>> TR.)
>>>

 How big is "bigger"?  And where does "mid-sized" end and "bigger" 
 begin?   I'd like to think my 59-60 cm frames are at the high end of 
 "mid-sized" but not yet across the "BIG" boundary... 


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Re: [RBW] Re: Any benefits to the longer CS's?

[Grant Petersen]

"Rocks in the top of the engine" is a phantastik fraze---I just wish it
were more versatile so I could plug it in here and there during the day.

On Thu, Jun 30, 2016 at 6:42 PM, Deacon Patrick  wrote:

> Doesn't it all depend on how many rocks are in the top of the engine? I'm
> top heavy just because of all the granite between my ears! Grin.
>
> With abandon,
> Patrick
>
>
> On Thursday, June 30, 2016 at 7:26:53 PM UTC-6, Mark in Beacon wrote:
>>
>> Steve, from here it looks like you are at the exact midpoint between your
>> basic unicycle and your tandem recumbent. (Maybe a *smidge* toward TR.)
>>
>>>
>>> How big is "bigger"?  And where does "mid-sized" end and "bigger"
>>> begin?   I'd like to think my 59-60 cm frames are at the high end of
>>> "mid-sized" but not yet across the "BIG" boundary...
>>>
>>>
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Re: [RBW] Re: Any benefits to the longer CS's?

[Deacon Patrick]

Doesn't it all depend on how many rocks are in the top of the engine? I'm 
top heavy just because of all the granite between my ears! Grin.

With abandon,
Patrick

On Thursday, June 30, 2016 at 7:26:53 PM UTC-6, Mark in Beacon wrote:
>
> Steve, from here it looks like you are at the exact midpoint between your 
> basic unicycle and your tandem recumbent. (Maybe a *smidge* toward TR.)
>
>>
>> How big is "bigger"?  And where does "mid-sized" end and "bigger" 
>> begin?   I'd like to think my 59-60 cm frames are at the high end of 
>> "mid-sized" but not yet across the "BIG" boundary... 
>>
>>
>>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Any benefits to the longer CS's?

['Mark in Beacon' via RBW Owners Bunch]

Steve, from here it looks like you are at the exact midpoint between your 
basic unicycle and your tandem recumbent. (Maybe a *smidge* toward TR.)

>
> How big is "bigger"?  And where does "mid-sized" end and "bigger" 
> begin?   I'd like to think my 59-60 cm frames are at the high end of 
> "mid-sized" but not yet across the "BIG" boundary... 
>
>
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Any benefits to the longer CS's?

[Steve Palincsar]

On 06/30/2016 11:04 AM, Grant @ Rivendell wrote:


Bikes generally grow taller way faster than they grow longer, and 
so...bigger bikes are top-heavy. "Top-heavy" isn't exactly a 
scientific description, but it's a way to casually talk about the 
proportions of weight-up-high to wheelbase-down-low. For hundreds of 
decades, the longest chainstays available without jumping thru hoops 
were intended for small to mid-sized bikes, but when you can get (or 
have made) longer chainstays, it makes some sense to put them on 
bigger bikes.


How big is "bigger"?  And where does "mid-sized" end and "bigger" 
begin?   I'd like to think my 59-60 cm frames are at the high end of 
"mid-sized" but not yet across the "BIG" boundary...



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[RBW] Re: Any benefits to the longer CS's?

[James Valiensi]

In my experience long chain stays have two drawbacks: its harder to pull up 
over an obstacle  and the need to buy two chains because 114-links is not 
enough.
Short stays make the bike feel twitchy and ride rough.
Competition hill climbing motorcycles use really long swing arms, so how do 
short stays make a bicycle climb better? I think this is a typical bicycle 
thing where the laws of physics are ignored. 
On a bicycle, the most import upgrade you can make is to the motor and the 
most important feature is the paint color.

Cheers!

On Monday, June 13, 2016 at 3:12:12 PM UTC-7, Lungimsam wrote:
>
> More rivmodels headed that way.
>
> Cant think of any benefits other than stability, which rivs already have 
> plenty of, off top of my head.
> Was wondering what makes it worth the extra weight, 2 chains needed, and 
> less maneuverability due to longer bike length in garages, near bike racks, 
> BARTs, carrying through house, etc,
>

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[RBW] Re: Any benefits to the longer CS's?

[Grant @ Rivendell]

Bikes generally grow taller way faster than they grow longer, and 
so...bigger bikes are top-heavy. "Top-heavy" isn't exactly a scientific 
description, but it's a way to casually talk about the proportions of 
weight-up-high to wheelbase-down-low. For hundreds of decades, the longest 
chainstays available without jumping thru hoops were intended for small to 
mid-sized bikes, but when you can get (or have made) longer chainstays, it 
makes some sense to put them on bigger bikes. 
I likem on any bike, because they set you less on top of the rear hub, and 
combined with a softish tire, that has to make a less bumpy ride. Long 
wheelbases make a bike react less errratically on rough ground and in 
wind...and this is something I bet most people will notice. Also, with the 
shallowish seat tube angles we like (71.5 to 72.5 degrees), the saddle 
tends to sit back more than it does on a tracbikelike 74.5-deg seat tube 
angle (depends on the seat post and saddle too, but---all things equal, 
this is true).
Dave here can wheelie a long-stay Clem with the best of them, but the 
wheelie factor isn't important to me, as a guy who makes up numbers for 
bike frames. In the mid - '90s there was a mtn bike with super short 
chainstays, said to be a super climber. In theory kinda sorta--it is easy 
to say the shorter stays put more weight on the rear wheel for more 
tractions. But traction is only sometimes the thing that's stopping you 
from getting up the hill. On any steep seated climb, that bike wheelied all 
the time (putting even more weight on the rear wheel, for even more 
traction). I don't like to talk about bikes as "climbers" and "not 
climbers," but that bike was a "not climber" despite its 
traction-increasing short chainstays.
I think everbody should own a unicycle, a long-wheelbase tandem recumbent, 
and a couple of bike in between.


On Monday, June 13, 2016 at 3:12:12 PM UTC-7, Lungimsam wrote:
>
> More rivmodels headed that way.
>
> Cant think of any benefits other than stability, which rivs already have 
> plenty of, off top of my head.
> Was wondering what makes it worth the extra weight, 2 chains needed, and 
> less maneuverability due to longer bike length in garages, near bike racks, 
> BARTs, carrying through house, etc,
>

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[RBW] Re: Any benefits to the longer CS's?

[Garth]

I noticed the Jones Plus uses a 68mm BB shell, but wondered what the 
minimum inside width for cranks is to clear the chainstays ?   I'm real 
interested in one but the cranks are giving me pause as I run short 152 
length XD cranks and I have found no comparable crank in current mtb 
models. 

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[RBW] Re: Any benefits to the longer CS's?

[Mike in WA]

You need to ride a Jones Plus! Getting the front wheel up is super easy!

On Monday, June 13, 2016 at 4:19:45 PM UTC-7, Richard Rios wrote:
>
> On road they are fine. Very laid back feeling, smooth and what others 
> mentioned. Off road I found I didn't like them so much especially if paired 
> with a long top tube and non swept back bars. My impression was it made it 
> to hard to get the front wheel up to go over obstacles so I ended up 
> plowing through stuff and it had the reverse effect of esentially making 
> the ride rougher...just my .02 impressions based off a long CS proto 
> hunqapillar.
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Any benefits to the longer CS's?

['Mark in Beacon' via RBW Owners Bunch]

Notwithstanding Jeremy's report, which is great to read. Are you intending 
it for mainly traditional singletrack duties, or will you be switching back 
and forth (tires, wheelsets)?Other than dirt paths and a one-mile loop of 
singletrack, I can't really get to mountain biking trails without a car. 
When I go with my son, I take my Raleigh Twenty, because the Clementine, 
with fenders and racks (and probably even without) won't fit in the back of 
the Subaru with also him and his bike. Just got the car, don't have/can't 
really afford/don't like the idea of a bike rack for it. Don't intend to 
keep it past the first repair (has 238,000 miles on it).

On Tuesday, June 21, 2016 at 8:51:38 PM UTC-4, Mark in Beacon wrote:
>
> I wouldn't say a noob mistake, Zed. I do think the pedals on the Clems are 
> lower than your average bear, and, perhaps combined with the long cs, might 
> need some getting used to, depending on your riding style/terrain. 
>
> For comparison, the JA in the 52cm 650b size has a bb drop of 68.9, with 
> 52cm stays, the Clem 52cm 650b has a bb drop of 67, also with 52cm stays, 
> very similar specs, though the JA is not for the same range of riders, of 
> course. The larger Joes with 700c wheels, comparable to the largest Clem, 
> have CS lengths around 3cm shorter, and 78bb drop vs. 80 for the large 
> Clems. And though the Clems have a direct bloodline from Mt. Bikes, it is 
> more as they were reimagined/reconfigured for urban/town use, less as full 
> on mt bikes, obviously. And that seems to be how many here are using them, 
> while the Joes seem to see more trail action. All speculation and 
> conjecture on my part, but I wonder if any Joe users have experienced an 
> adaptation period regarding pedal strikes caused by low bb/long cs 
> configuration?
>
> On Monday, June 20, 2016 at 6:44:48 PM UTC-4, Zed Martinez wrote:
>>
>> I'm running Switchbacks Mark, but mine's totally just noob mistakes. I 
>> never pedal through turns, but I'd also never had a bike where I had to pay 
>> any particular thought to raising the inside pedal before the turn. 
>>
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Any benefits to the longer CS's?

['Mark in Beacon' via RBW Owners Bunch]

I wouldn't say a noob mistake, Zed. I do think the pedals on the Clems are 
lower than your average bear, and, perhaps combined with the long cs, might 
need some getting used to, depending on your riding style/terrain. 

For comparison, the JA in the 52cm 650b size has a bb drop of 68.9, with 
52cm stays, the Clem 52cm 650b has a bb drop of 67, also with 52cm stays, 
very similar specs, though the JA is not for the same range of riders, of 
course. The larger Joes with 700c wheels, comparable to the largest Clem, 
have CS lengths around 3cm shorter, and 78bb drop vs. 80 for the large 
Clems. And though the Clems have a direct bloodline from Mt. Bikes, it is 
more as they were reimagined/reconfigured for urban/town use, less as full 
on mt bikes, obviously. And that seems to be how many here are using them, 
while the Joes seem to see more trail action. All speculation and 
conjecture on my part, but I wonder if any Joe users have experienced an 
adaptation period regarding pedal strikes caused by low bb/long cs 
configuration?

On Monday, June 20, 2016 at 6:44:48 PM UTC-4, Zed Martinez wrote:
>
> I'm running Switchbacks Mark, but mine's totally just noob mistakes. I 
> never pedal through turns, but I'd also never had a bike where I had to pay 
> any particular thought to raising the inside pedal before the turn. 
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Any benefits to the longer CS's?

[Patrick Moore]

Very interesting; thanks for this report. I'll be interested to hear how
the C and the Joe Appaloosa compare off road.

On Tue, Jun 21, 2016 at 8:54 AM, Jeremy Till  wrote:

> So I got my Clem set up with tubeless knobbies (Spec. Fast Trak 29x2.2)
> and my wife and I went singletracking with our Clems over the weekend.  In
> general, I was super happy with how the Clem performed as a mountain
> bike--it was exactly what i was hoping for.  Bullet points:
>
> Upsides of long chainstays:
> -Climbing moderately steep stuff, the long chainstays performed exactly as
> intended, allowing me to climb with a relaxed upper body position without
> the front wheel popping up or losing traction.
> -Descending was equally awesome.  Putting my weight back behind the
> saddle, I felt perfectly balanced, with both plenty of front wheel steering
> authority and no feeling like I was going to go over the bars.  As many
> have described with long chainstay bikes, that "sweet spot" of balance was
> really wide.
> -The low bb and big tires gave me a wonderful "in the bike feeling" that
> even other 29er's haven't had for me.
> -One unexpected benefit from the long wheelbase was stability in deep
> sand.  The park where we were riding (Granite Bay on Folsom Lake, CA) has
> plenty of sandy washes and the Clem just plowed through them with none of
> the nervousness that one usually feels in such conditions.
>
> Theoretical downsides:
> -While climbing steep stuff, not once did I feel like the rear wheel
> lacking for traction, at least any more so than normal-chainstayed 29er's
> I've ridden.
> -There were a couple of times where I was "threading the needle" between
> obstacles where I could get the front wheel through but then the rear wheel
> hit the obstacle (but just self-corrected and rolled right over, thanks to
> the big wheels), but honestly that can happen on pretty much any bike.
> -I did smack pedals a couple of times, but again, that happens on most any
> bike, and the handling benefits of long chainstays and low BB make it a
> fine compromise for me.
>
> On Monday, June 20, 2016 at 3:44:48 PM UTC-7, Zed Martinez wrote:
>>
>> I'm running Switchbacks Mark, but mine's totally just noob mistakes. I
>> never pedal through turns, but I'd also never had a bike where I had to pay
>> any particular thought to raising the inside pedal before the turn. I mean,
>> I've scraped the end of a few before, but on the Clem that sucker just
>> slammed into the ground and about knocked the bike over the first time I
>> took that little crest lazily. In my case, I guess I didn't so much have to
>> raise my cornering game as bother to bring one at all. Like masmojo, quick
>> to adjust for it, but yeah. It probably does come down to both the lowish
>> BB and the tendency for the wheels to straddle obstacles. No big deal at
>> all, if amusing for trail users when I forget, but definitely a thing I had
>> to start paying attention to for the first time as just a commuter.
>>
>> On Monday, June 20, 2016 at 5:01:29 PM UTC-4, Mark in Beacon wrote:
>>>
>>> Hmm. I have not been riding the Clementine off road and I doubt I have
>>> your off-road skills. I can see where the bike could get "hung up"
>>> especially on a grade. But speed bumps with no lean, that would be purely a
>>> bb height issue, no? Are you guys both running the Compass Switchbacks? Are
>>> they appreciably less tall than the stock Kendas?
>>>
>>> On Monday, June 20, 2016 at 4:26:18 PM UTC-4, masmojo wrote:

 Actually,  the problem I am having is more of an issue with uneven
 surfaces, although the turning plays into it as well. The further the
 wheels are apart the more likely that a bump or object can stick up between
 them and you pedal can hit it while it rotates around.  Generally,  you you
 anticipate this and level your pedals until you clear that area, but in
 said circumstance mentioned earlier with getting the front wheel over
 objects,  many times I will clear it with my front wheel to find my pedals
 strike the object which tends to suddenly stop me dead in my tracks! I used
 to race mountain bikes so I have fair bike handling skills,  I don't have
 this issue on any other bike and generally not on the Clementine,  but it
 does bite me from time to time. I've also scraped the pedals on speed bumps
 which is odd, because I've never had an issue hitting them before.  Ive
 learned my lesson though,  haven't done that in a while.
>>>
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Re: [RBW] Re: Any benefits to the longer CS's?

[Jeremy Till]

So I got my Clem set up with tubeless knobbies (Spec. Fast Trak 29x2.2) and 
my wife and I went singletracking with our Clems over the weekend.  In 
general, I was super happy with how the Clem performed as a mountain 
bike--it was exactly what i was hoping for.  Bullet points:

Upsides of long chainstays:
-Climbing moderately steep stuff, the long chainstays performed exactly as 
intended, allowing me to climb with a relaxed upper body position without 
the front wheel popping up or losing traction.  
-Descending was equally awesome.  Putting my weight back behind the saddle, 
I felt perfectly balanced, with both plenty of front wheel steering 
authority and no feeling like I was going to go over the bars.  As many 
have described with long chainstay bikes, that "sweet spot" of balance was 
really wide.  
-The low bb and big tires gave me a wonderful "in the bike feeling" that 
even other 29er's haven't had for me.  
-One unexpected benefit from the long wheelbase was stability in deep sand. 
 The park where we were riding (Granite Bay on Folsom Lake, CA) has plenty 
of sandy washes and the Clem just plowed through them with none of the 
nervousness that one usually feels in such conditions.  

Theoretical downsides:
-While climbing steep stuff, not once did I feel like the rear wheel 
lacking for traction, at least any more so than normal-chainstayed 29er's 
I've ridden.
-There were a couple of times where I was "threading the needle" between 
obstacles where I could get the front wheel through but then the rear wheel 
hit the obstacle (but just self-corrected and rolled right over, thanks to 
the big wheels), but honestly that can happen on pretty much any bike.  
-I did smack pedals a couple of times, but again, that happens on most any 
bike, and the handling benefits of long chainstays and low BB make it a 
fine compromise for me.  

On Monday, June 20, 2016 at 3:44:48 PM UTC-7, Zed Martinez wrote:
>
> I'm running Switchbacks Mark, but mine's totally just noob mistakes. I 
> never pedal through turns, but I'd also never had a bike where I had to pay 
> any particular thought to raising the inside pedal before the turn. I mean, 
> I've scraped the end of a few before, but on the Clem that sucker just 
> slammed into the ground and about knocked the bike over the first time I 
> took that little crest lazily. In my case, I guess I didn't so much have to 
> raise my cornering game as bother to bring one at all. Like masmojo, quick 
> to adjust for it, but yeah. It probably does come down to both the lowish 
> BB and the tendency for the wheels to straddle obstacles. No big deal at 
> all, if amusing for trail users when I forget, but definitely a thing I had 
> to start paying attention to for the first time as just a commuter.
>
> On Monday, June 20, 2016 at 5:01:29 PM UTC-4, Mark in Beacon wrote:
>>
>> Hmm. I have not been riding the Clementine off road and I doubt I have 
>> your off-road skills. I can see where the bike could get "hung up" 
>> especially on a grade. But speed bumps with no lean, that would be purely a 
>> bb height issue, no? Are you guys both running the Compass Switchbacks? Are 
>> they appreciably less tall than the stock Kendas?
>>
>> On Monday, June 20, 2016 at 4:26:18 PM UTC-4, masmojo wrote:
>>>
>>> Actually,  the problem I am having is more of an issue with uneven 
>>> surfaces, although the turning plays into it as well. The further the 
>>> wheels are apart the more likely that a bump or object can stick up between 
>>> them and you pedal can hit it while it rotates around.  Generally,  you you 
>>> anticipate this and level your pedals until you clear that area, but in 
>>> said circumstance mentioned earlier with getting the front wheel over 
>>> objects,  many times I will clear it with my front wheel to find my pedals 
>>> strike the object which tends to suddenly stop me dead in my tracks! I used 
>>> to race mountain bikes so I have fair bike handling skills,  I don't have 
>>> this issue on any other bike and generally not on the Clementine,  but it 
>>> does bite me from time to time. I've also scraped the pedals on speed bumps 
>>> which is odd, because I've never had an issue hitting them before.  Ive 
>>> learned my lesson though,  haven't done that in a while. 
>>
>>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Any benefits to the longer CS's?

[Zed Martinez]

I'm running Switchbacks Mark, but mine's totally just noob mistakes. I 
never pedal through turns, but I'd also never had a bike where I had to pay 
any particular thought to raising the inside pedal before the turn. I mean, 
I've scraped the end of a few before, but on the Clem that sucker just 
slammed into the ground and about knocked the bike over the first time I 
took that little crest lazily. In my case, I guess I didn't so much have to 
raise my cornering game as bother to bring one at all. Like masmojo, quick 
to adjust for it, but yeah. It probably does come down to both the lowish 
BB and the tendency for the wheels to straddle obstacles. No big deal at 
all, if amusing for trail users when I forget, but definitely a thing I had 
to start paying attention to for the first time as just a commuter.

On Monday, June 20, 2016 at 5:01:29 PM UTC-4, Mark in Beacon wrote:
>
> Hmm. I have not been riding the Clementine off road and I doubt I have 
> your off-road skills. I can see where the bike could get "hung up" 
> especially on a grade. But speed bumps with no lean, that would be purely a 
> bb height issue, no? Are you guys both running the Compass Switchbacks? Are 
> they appreciably less tall than the stock Kendas?
>
> On Monday, June 20, 2016 at 4:26:18 PM UTC-4, masmojo wrote:
>>
>> Actually,  the problem I am having is more of an issue with uneven 
>> surfaces, although the turning plays into it as well. The further the 
>> wheels are apart the more likely that a bump or object can stick up between 
>> them and you pedal can hit it while it rotates around.  Generally,  you you 
>> anticipate this and level your pedals until you clear that area, but in 
>> said circumstance mentioned earlier with getting the front wheel over 
>> objects,  many times I will clear it with my front wheel to find my pedals 
>> strike the object which tends to suddenly stop me dead in my tracks! I used 
>> to race mountain bikes so I have fair bike handling skills,  I don't have 
>> this issue on any other bike and generally not on the Clementine,  but it 
>> does bite me from time to time. I've also scraped the pedals on speed bumps 
>> which is odd, because I've never had an issue hitting them before.  Ive 
>> learned my lesson though,  haven't done that in a while. 
>
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Any benefits to the longer CS's?

[masmojo]

I've been riding Big Bens, which I believe are nearly identical size wise to 
the Kendas.
And yes, I've adjusted my riding style, but occasionally you get stuck in an 
awkward place and you get jammed up. I remember one night I was trying to lift 
the front wheel up from street level to the sidewalk, a car turned towards me, 
I don't quite get the wheel clear, but it rolls over the top anyway,  just as I 
am cussing myself for missing it and thinking OK it wasn't graceful,  but I 
made it, my pedal/foot hit the curb ever so slightly,  but just enough to break 
my momentum and stop me.  No harm done,  but it makes you feel kinda stupid, 
you put your foot down & the pedal pegs dig into the back of your leg! URGH!

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Re: [RBW] Re: Any benefits to the longer CS's?

['Mark in Beacon' via RBW Owners Bunch]

Hmm. I have not been riding the Clementine off road and I doubt I have your 
off-road skills. I can see where the bike could get "hung up" especially on 
a grade. But speed bumps with no lean, that would be purely a bb height 
issue, no? Are you guys both running the Compass Switchbacks? Are they 
appreciably less tall than the stock Kendas?

On Monday, June 20, 2016 at 4:26:18 PM UTC-4, masmojo wrote:
>
> Actually,  the problem I am having is more of an issue with uneven 
> surfaces, although the turning plays into it as well. The further the 
> wheels are apart the more likely that a bump or object can stick up between 
> them and you pedal can hit it while it rotates around.  Generally,  you you 
> anticipate this and level your pedals until you clear that area, but in 
> said circumstance mentioned earlier with getting the front wheel over 
> objects,  many times I will clear it with my front wheel to find my pedals 
> strike the object which tends to suddenly stop me dead in my tracks! I used 
> to race mountain bikes so I have fair bike handling skills,  I don't have 
> this issue on any other bike and generally not on the Clementine,  but it 
> does bite me from time to time. I've also scraped the pedals on speed bumps 
> which is odd, because I've never had an issue hitting them before.  Ive 
> learned my lesson though,  haven't done that in a while. 

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[RBW] Re: Any benefits to the longer CS's?

['Mark in Beacon' via RBW Owners Bunch]

I have not experienced pedal strike with the Clementine on the road. While 
cutting through short, rutted trails of some grade, I've bumped a rock once 
or twice, but that would have probably happened on any bike. Though I am a 
former racer, I tend to not pedal through turns of 90 degrees or more these 
days. I mean, why? Especially on a fat tire roadish bike with upright bars.

I just sold my Surly Big Dummy after 3 years, no pedal strike there either. 
Checking the geometry, I found this.


*Riding a long bike *- Many people ask what the Big Dummy rides like. 
> Basically, it rides just like a normal bike. The geometry is similar to a 
> standard mountain bike, but with a slightly higher bottom bracket and 
> longer wheelbase. The high bottom bracket is necessary with any long 
> wheelbase bike to keep the cranks/pedals away from the ground.
>
>- On road - Other than timing the corners a little differently to make 
>sure the longer rear end clears obstacles and unweighting the bike 
>carefully to get up and over curbs, it’s really no different than a normal 
>bike
>- Off Road - The Dummy is built for on or off-road use, so it’s 
>durable enough to handle off-road touring or serious urban hauling. One 
>thing you’ll notice is that your weight is almost even on both wheels, so 
>the traction/friction through loose corners is about the same per wheel. 
>So, imagine screaming down a gravel road around a tight corner. With equal 
>weight on the wheels combined with a long wheelbase, it makes for an 
>incredibly stable and predictable off-road ride. You’ll be two-wheel 
>drifting through corners like Mert Lawwill in no time
>
> Of course, once you load the rear end with stuff, the rear end traction 
> gets better. Just make sure that you can get up and over obstacles, since 
> it’ll be harder to unweight the bike and bunnyhop over things.
>

So does the longer CS length contribute in some way on Clems? Maybe. 
Interesting. But I suspect it's a matter too of riding style, and once 
you've ridden the bike for a bit, the pedal strike thing, unless egregious, 
will, as they say, self-correct.

As a side note, I liked the Big Dummy, but it does not have the smooth 
handling of a Clementine, the steering is comparatively tight and twitchy.


On Monday, June 20, 2016 at 11:49:41 AM UTC-4, masmojo wrote:
>
> You know one thing that's been perplexing me on my Clementine is the 
> amount of pedal strike I've been getting.  Odd because,  the BB drop, crank 
> length, etc. isn't really measurably different from several other bikes I 
> own that I have no such issue with!?
> Then this morning I was reading Zed's review and he mentioned pedal strike 
> as well! (And here I thought it was just me) Something about the way I 
> built it!? Then the light bulb went on! The long chain stays/wheel base are 
> contribuing to the pedal strike problem! Ah! Makes perfect sense now!
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Any benefits to the longer CS's?

[Zed Martinez]

>
> The further the wheels are apart the more likely that a bump or object can 
> stick up between them and you pedal can hit it while it rotates around.


That actually sounds about right to me. Most of my pedal strikes have been 
when cresting a short rise at a T onto the local trail that gets suddenly 
steep the last two feet or so, so on my Clem the front wheel and rear are 
often on different sides of that crest. Makes sense to me, hearing someone 
else say it. 

On Monday, June 20, 2016 at 4:26:18 PM UTC-4, masmojo wrote:
>
> Actually,  the problem I am having is more of an issue with uneven 
> surfaces, although the turning plays into it as well. The further the 
> wheels are apart the more likely that a bump or object can stick up between 
> them and you pedal can hit it while it rotates around.  Generally,  you you 
> anticipate this and level your pedals until you clear that area, but in 
> said circumstance mentioned earlier with getting the front wheel over 
> objects,  many times I will clear it with my front wheel to find my pedals 
> strike the object which tends to suddenly stop me dead in my tracks! I used 
> to race mountain bikes so I have fair bike handling skills,  I don't have 
> this issue on any other bike and generally not on the Clementine,  but it 
> does bite me from time to time. I've also scraped the pedals on speed bumps 
> which is odd, because I've never had an issue hitting them before.  Ive 
> learned my lesson though,  haven't done that in a while. 

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Re: [RBW] Re: Any benefits to the longer CS's?

[masmojo]

Actually,  the problem I am having is more of an issue with uneven surfaces, 
although the turning plays into it as well. The further the wheels are apart 
the more likely that a bump or object can stick up between them and you pedal 
can hit it while it rotates around.  Generally,  you you anticipate this and 
level your pedals until you clear that area, but in said circumstance mentioned 
earlier with getting the front wheel over objects,  many times I will clear it 
with my front wheel to find my pedals strike the object which tends to suddenly 
stop me dead in my tracks! I used to race mountain bikes so I have fair bike 
handling skills,  I don't have this issue on any other bike and generally not 
on the Clementine,  but it does bite me from time to time. I've also scraped 
the pedals on speed bumps which is odd, because I've never had an issue hitting 
them before.  Ive learned my lesson though,  haven't done that in a while. 

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Re: [RBW] Re: Any benefits to the longer CS's?

[Patrick Moore]

IOW, (I think) you have to turn sharper, and therefore lean more, to carve
the same arc. Think of a semitrailer combo making a turn on a city street.

On Mon, Jun 20, 2016 at 10:59 AM, Will  wrote:

> You have to lean the bike more to carve the same arc (as a shorter
> wheelbase bike) during a turn...
>
> On Monday, June 20, 2016 at 11:21:34 AM UTC-5, Deacon Patrick wrote:
>>
>> Could you please explain this? I'm too dim to get the causal connection
>> between chain stay length and pedal strike.
>>
>> With abandon,
>> Patrick
>>
>> On Monday, June 20, 2016 at 9:49:41 AM UTC-6, masmojo wrote:
>>>
>>> The long chain stays/wheel base are contribuing to the pedal strike
>>> problem! Ah! Makes perfect sense now!
>>>
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[RBW] Re: Any benefits to the longer CS's?

[Deacon Patrick]

Thanks, Will. That was the piece I'm missing.

With abandon,
Patrick

On Monday, June 20, 2016 at 10:59:41 AM UTC-6, Will wrote:
>
> You have to lean the bike more to carve the same arc (as a shorter 
> wheelbase bike) during a turn... 
>
> On Monday, June 20, 2016 at 11:21:34 AM UTC-5, Deacon Patrick wrote:
>>
>> Could you please explain this? I'm too dim to get the causal connection 
>> between chain stay length and pedal strike.
>>
>> With abandon,
>> Patrick
>>
>> On Monday, June 20, 2016 at 9:49:41 AM UTC-6, masmojo wrote:
>>>
>>> The long chain stays/wheel base are contribuing to the pedal strike 
>>> problem! Ah! Makes perfect sense now!
>>>
>>

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[RBW] Re: Any benefits to the longer CS's?

[Zed Martinez]

I'd have to measure my roadster to compare, maybe I'll do so when I get 
home. It's not a short bike, but not as long as the Clem certainly. I feel 
like the BB drop plus the Sylvans is still most of it though, it's only 
been a problem when I'm turning on a grade. With a BB drop of 67, and a 
theoretical wheel radius with tire of 340, that leaves me 273mm clearance. 
My crank arms are 170mm, so, that only leaves 103mm. I'm not sure how tall 
the Sylvan is, but, that makes the ground clearance under 4" before I even 
start turning, and with a pedal that wide, I guess I'm not surprised it 
strikes if I'm making a 90º turn at the top of a few degrees grade. Not 
sure if the chain stays really come into it. I'll measure my other upright 
bike when I get home, it also has 170mm arms and Sylvans, but isn't nice 
enough to spec its BB drop for me online. I can say it's already got a 6mm 
advantage though, being 700cx35 instead of 650bx48. Ah well, not worth 
speculating, I can just measure'em later and see, but I think my money is 
more on the frame-proportoinal wheel sizes combined with those low drops.

On Monday, June 20, 2016 at 11:49:41 AM UTC-4, masmojo wrote:
>
> You know one thing that's been perplexing me on my Clementine is the 
> amount of pedal strike I've been getting.  Odd because,  the BB drop, crank 
> length, etc. isn't really measurably different from several other bikes I 
> own that I have no such issue with!?
> Then this morning I was reading Zed's review and he mentioned pedal strike 
> as well! (And here I thought it was just me) Something about the way I 
> built it!? Then the light bulb went on! The long chain stays/wheel base are 
> contribuing to the pedal strike problem! Ah! Makes perfect sense now!
>

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[RBW] Re: Any benefits to the longer CS's?

[Will]

You have to lean the bike more to carve the same arc (as a shorter 
wheelbase bike) during a turn... 

On Monday, June 20, 2016 at 11:21:34 AM UTC-5, Deacon Patrick wrote:
>
> Could you please explain this? I'm too dim to get the causal connection 
> between chain stay length and pedal strike.
>
> With abandon,
> Patrick
>
> On Monday, June 20, 2016 at 9:49:41 AM UTC-6, masmojo wrote:
>>
>> The long chain stays/wheel base are contribuing to the pedal strike 
>> problem! Ah! Makes perfect sense now!
>>
>

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[RBW] Re: Any benefits to the longer CS's?

[Deacon Patrick]

Could you please explain this? I'm too dim to get the causal connection 
between chain stay length and pedal strike.

With abandon,
Patrick

On Monday, June 20, 2016 at 9:49:41 AM UTC-6, masmojo wrote:
>
> The long chain stays/wheel base are contribuing to the pedal strike 
> problem! Ah! Makes perfect sense now!
>

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[RBW] Re: Any benefits to the longer CS's?

[masmojo]

You know one thing that's been perplexing me on my Clementine is the amount of 
pedal strike I've been getting.  Odd because,  the BB drop, crank length, etc. 
isn't really measurably different from several other bikes I own that I have no 
such issue with!?
Then this morning I was reading Zed's review and he mentioned pedal strike as 
well! (And here I thought it was just me) Something about the way I built it!? 
Then the light bulb went on! The long chain stays/wheel base are contribuing to 
the pedal strike problem! Ah! Makes perfect sense now!

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[RBW] Re: Any benefits to the longer CS's?

['Mark in Beacon' via RBW Owners Bunch]

Yes, definitely not a homage, certainly based in part on the pure 
functionality of 80s mountain bikes. The vintage ones I've had (Canyon 
Express, Miyata Ridge Runner, Mongoose) all had chainstay lengths of, off 
the top of my head, 43-46cm, which is right around the touring bike 
territory of the day. But if you have read Petersen's writing on the chain 
stay thing, you'll know that they had to get special tubing drawn because 
nobody makes, or ever made, chain stay tubing in these new lengths, which 
are significantly longer than vintage mountain bike chainstays.

As far as tight turns, again, the designer specifically addresses the wider 
turning radius for U turns, which was, to quote, who cares? The other 
handling characteristics gained with the longer stays trump this and the 
wheel hopping based on his functional goals for the bike's handling. To say 
shortening the stays by a centimeter or two would result in a "better 
handling" bicycle does not say anything, really. 

I would be surprised if the Clem chainstay length goes down--looks like 
most other frames are heading up toward Clem length territory.

I don't recall reading anything about chainring clearance being a factor in 
the decision to build with longer stays. And heel clearance for panniers is 
an ancillary benefit, not the primary reason for longer stays.

Even though this is the Internet, I'm not a bike designer. I've ridden lots 
of bicycles, but so what. I just find it odd to argue that the Clem 
chainstays should be shorter. In that case, probably a different bike is 
the answer, and there are a few to choose from. Or, maybe Grant will 
realize he is "90% there" and  rethink the extra long stays and shorten 
them up on batch number 3 (he did shorten up the stays on the tandem, but 
that's a different design brief). But I think they ride these prototypes 
extensively, and from what he has written, he seems clear on what the 
benefits are for the kind of bikes he wants to create. Now please excuse me 
while I go try to pop a wheelie on my Clementine.

On Friday, June 17, 2016 at 10:35:37 AM UTC-4, masmojo wrote:
>
> How long is too long!? The bike was made as a homage to or at least 
> evolved from the idea of early 80's mountain bikes,  which had longer 
> stays, steel forks, etc.


The thing is on your large, the chain stays could probably be 1 to 1.5 
> inches shorter and you still wouldn't have to worry about clipping the 
> pannier and you would get the benefit of a better handling bike. 
>


 

> The difference is in the 80's they made the stays long because they had 
> too, their limited choice of components determined frame design to a large 
> extent, but even then the bikes were built by road racers & they weren't 
> going to make them any longer than they had to.
> Today, we have too many choices,  you could do like many 29'ers & curve 
> the seat tube to make a very compact rear triangle (I am not advocating 
> that). So, in the end how do you know when the chainstay is too long? 
> Simple,  when it's longer than it needs to be! Need heal clearance for bags 
> and panniers, etc. Fine determine how much that needs to be, but no more! 
> My Clementine has 2.2 wide tires on it now & could probably go 2.4 without 
> much fuss.  Amazing when you consider that the stays are almost straight 
> and the bike uses a narrow BB shell! This all tells me that they are too 
> long, even if you did not have the anecdotal evidence of riders saying how 
> hard it is to lift the front wheel over obstacles. I also notice the 
> additional wheelbase in tight turns, I really have to slow down more than I 
> normally would,  because otherwise I clip the inside apex or blow off the 
> outside of the turn.
> One more thing is in addition to the medium I have a small and partly 
> because it uses 26" wheels, the stays are much shorter. I think they are 
> still slightly long,  but they feel much better, the small feels a little 
> taughter.
> OK whining aside I think the Clems are great bikes, they definitely have a 
> unique character & charm. The design is 90% there, just needs some 
> tweaking, chain stay length is the main thing though. 

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[RBW] Re: Any benefits to the longer CS's?

[Garth]

  FWIW in regard to chainring clearance you don't have to go to super long 
stays in order to get this though. The original Stumpjumer is a great 
example of design that had the clearance for both wide tires AND any crank 
you wanted. In fact the original Stumpy came with TA cranks.  Why no one 
else uses a design like this rather than insisting on the same ol' same ol' 
design who knows but this just works. 

http://bicycle.images.budgetbicyclectr.com//media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/270x270/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/s/p/specialized_stumpjumpersilver16_1.jpg
from here:
http://budgetbicyclectr.com/1982-specialized-stump-jumper-mountain-bicycle-22.html


On Friday, June 17, 2016 at 11:27:11 AM UTC-4, David Banzer wrote:
>
> I'll gladly take the ability to run normal cranks with low-ish q-factor 
> compared to other bikes that fit large tires if the exchange is that tight 
> turns are an issue. 
> For chainstay length, pannier clearance is completely dependent on the 
> user (foot size and pedaling position). I'd certainly take a little longer 
> than necessary chainstay for pannier clearance, than one that is too short. 
> On my large Clem, I don't have to worry about clipping a rear pannier - 
> that's something I've never experienced on a bike, including using smaller 
> panniers on a touring bike that has longer chainstays than a typical bike.
> For me, the chainstays are exactly what I want them to be. 
> David
> Chicago
>
>
>

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[RBW] Re: Any benefits to the longer CS's?

[masmojo]

The thing is on your large, the chain stays could probably be 1 to 1.5 inches 
shorter and you still wouldn't have to worry about clipping the pannier and you 
would get the benefit of a better handling bike. Too long better than too short 
for sure, but how much too long? Maybe for me, it's partly to do with where I 
ride & how I ride!? I rode cruisers/Klunkers/mountain bikes for 35 years, so I 
am pretty used to long stays, but it probably also makes me a little more aware 
of when they are too long.

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[RBW] Re: Any benefits to the longer CS's?

[David Banzer]

I'll gladly take the ability to run normal cranks with low-ish q-factor 
compared to other bikes that fit large tires if the exchange is that tight 
turns are an issue. 
For chainstay length, pannier clearance is completely dependent on the user 
(foot size and pedaling position). I'd certainly take a little longer than 
necessary chainstay for pannier clearance, than one that is too short. On 
my large Clem, I don't have to worry about clipping a rear pannier - that's 
something I've never experienced on a bike, including using smaller 
panniers on a touring bike that has longer chainstays than a typical bike.
For me, the chainstays are exactly what I want them to be. 
David
Chicago

On Friday, June 17, 2016 at 9:35:37 AM UTC-5, masmojo wrote:
>
> You know it's a bit subjective, the bike is BIG and even with shorter 
> stays it would still be big, but longs stays . . . How long is too long!? 
> The bike was made as a homage to or at least evolved from the idea of early 
> 80's mountain bikes,  which had longer stays, steel forks, etc. The 
> difference is in the 80's they made the stays long because they had too, 
> their limited choice of components determined frame design to a large 
> extent, but even then the bikes were built by road racers & they weren't 
> going to make them any longer than they had to.
> Today, we have too many choices,  you could do like many 29'ers & curve 
> the seat tube to make a very compact rear triangle (I am not advocating 
> that). So, in the end how do you know when the chainstay is too long? 
> Simple,  when it's longer than it needs to be! Need heal clearance for bags 
> and panniers, etc. Fine determine how much that needs to be, but no more! 
> My Clementine has 2.2 wide tires on it now & could probably go 2.4 without 
> much fuss.  Amazing when you consider that the stays are almost straight 
> and the bike uses a narrow BB shell! This all tells me that they are too 
> long, even if you did not have the anecdotal evidence of riders saying how 
> hard it is to lift the front wheel over obstacles. I also notice the 
> additional wheelbase in tight turns, I really have to slow down more than I 
> normally would,  because otherwise I clip the inside apex or blow off the 
> outside of the turn.
> One more thing is in addition to the medium I have a small and partly 
> because it uses 26" wheels, the stays are much shorter. I think they are 
> still slightly long,  but they feel much better, the small feels a little 
> taughter.
> OK whining aside I think the Clems are great bikes, they definitely have a 
> unique character & charm. The design is 90% there, just needs some 
> tweaking, chain stay length is the main thing though. 

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[RBW] Re: Any benefits to the longer CS's?

[masmojo]

You know it's a bit subjective, the bike is BIG and even with shorter stays it 
would still be big, but longs stays . . . How long is too long!? The bike was 
made as a homage to or at least evolved from the idea of early 80's mountain 
bikes,  which had longer stays, steel forks, etc. The difference is in the 80's 
they made the stays long because they had too, their limited choice of 
components determined frame design to a large extent, but even then the bikes 
were built by road racers & they weren't going to make them any longer than 
they had to.
Today, we have too many choices,  you could do like many 29'ers & curve the 
seat tube to make a very compact rear triangle (I am not advocating that). So, 
in the end how do you know when the chainstay is too long? Simple,  when it's 
longer than it needs to be! Need heal clearance for bags and panniers, etc. 
Fine determine how much that needs to be, but no more! 
My Clementine has 2.2 wide tires on it now & could probably go 2.4 without much 
fuss.  Amazing when you consider that the stays are almost straight and the 
bike uses a narrow BB shell! This all tells me that they are too long, even if 
you did not have the anecdotal evidence of riders saying how hard it is to lift 
the front wheel over obstacles. I also notice the additional wheelbase in tight 
turns, I really have to slow down more than I normally would,  because 
otherwise I clip the inside apex or blow off the outside of the turn.
One more thing is in addition to the medium I have a small and partly because 
it uses 26" wheels, the stays are much shorter. I think they are still slightly 
long,  but they feel much better, the small feels a little taughter.
OK whining aside I think the Clems are great bikes, they definitely have a 
unique character & charm. The design is 90% there, just needs some tweaking, 
chain stay length is the main thing though. 

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[RBW] Re: Any benefits to the longer CS's?

['Mark in Beacon' via RBW Owners Bunch]

I also own a medium Clementine. How did you make the determination that the 
chain stays are unnecessarily long? While I do realize that there is some 
point where long becomes too long, I would have no clue as to where to 
begin to make such a definitive assessment about the Clementine cs length. 
In fact, since the Clementine has a distinct ride feel that sets it apart 
from my other bicycles, and one of its distinct features is long chain 
stays, I give that feature at least some credit for its Clementine-ness. 
Would I notice if it were one centimeter longer, or shorter? Who knows. But 
I bought the bike in part because the designer said "trust me" Further 
reading at the link I provided above gives reasons that the designer has 
moved to extra long stays, and those reasons line up pretty well with my 
ride impressions.

On Thursday, June 16, 2016 at 2:54:05 PM UTC-4, masmojo wrote:
>
> I will say that my medium Clementine is a gangly beast, I sized up in the 
> Riv. Tradition, but it's size is one of the things I dig about it!
> That said, the chain stays are unnecessarily long. I can't even imagine if 
> I'd have bought a large! :-0

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[RBW] Re: Any benefits to the longer CS's?

[masmojo]

I will say that my medium Clementine is a gangly beast, I sized up in the Riv. 
Tradition, but it's size is one of the things I dig about it!
That said, the chain stays are unnecessarily long. I can't even imagine if I'd 
have bought a large! :-0

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[RBW] Re: Any benefits to the longer CS's?

['Mark in Beacon' via RBW Owners Bunch]

I don't mean to minimize it though, it definitely is a consideration. I am 
fortunate to have the strength and health right now.  But I suspect if you 
can carry a regular bike up, with a bit more effort you can get a long 
wheelbase bike up. If you can't carry a regular bike the point is moot. So 
it's really about those on the borderline. It is a factor, even a 
limitation that some might not have a workaround for (safe bicycle common 
area, foyer, etc.) My Le Tour mixte is certainly easier to get up and down 
that my Clementine.

On Wednesday, June 15, 2016 at 10:58:48 PM UTC-4, Eric Karnes wrote:
>
> Ha. I suppose 'very big disadvantage' was a bit extreme. I carted my 
> commuter up and down a lot of stairs that day.
>
> Eric
>
>
> On Tuesday, June 14, 2016 at 7:14:37 AM UTC-4, Mark in Beacon wrote:
>>
>> I think "off road" is a little broad. Yes, at some point on some terrain 
>> somewhere, any particular bike design will start to involve compromise. In 
>> lots of directions, Rivendells take a lot longer to reach those compromises.
>>
>> Single track with lots of rocks and roots and logs would start to 
>> classify as "technical" to me. Most Rivs are designed for, at a minimum, 
>> handling basic dirt roads with aplomb, and  "trail" models like the 
>> Appaloosa can get considerably rougher. But at some point, you may need to 
>> either consider another machine, or do some "underbiking." (A term I use 
>> here for ever so slight comic relief.) In other words, if a majority, or 
>> even a significant minority, of one's riding landscape includes a bunch of 
>> technical single track with many obstacles requiring constant wheelies, a 
>> Rivendell might not be the machine. Or it might, but you need to a. walk 
>> during the trickiest sections. b. figure a way to roll over them slowly, a 
>> la a curb half-pop half-rollover style maneuver, or c. start a weight 
>> training program to build upper body wheelie strength. Keeping in mind all 
>> the while that Rivendells are also designed with more bb drop, which will 
>> limit all that rock and log hoppin' probably as much as longer chainstays. 
>> As a design parameter, safety and smooth ride, predicable handling in an 
>> upright position would seem to be the goal more than gnarly single track 
>> capabilities. Still, I took my Big Dummy on a few not-quite-hairy stretches 
>> of single track without much problem. Definitely not a day to day thing, 
>> though. I plan to climb Mt. Beacon with my Clementine this summer, will 
>> report my findings!
>>
>> From the link I posted above:
>>
>> *Longer wheelbases make a bike more stable, smoother riding, less apt to 
>>> get redirected by wind and bumps. Safer, I’d say. Easier to control at high 
>>> speeds. So you can’t ride as small of a circle—who cares? You can still do 
>>> a U-turn, you can still ride the bike anywhere you ought to be riding a 
>>> bike. It’s just better when the chainstays are longer.*
>>>
>>
>> I suppose you could add, "can't constantly pop over big logs and rocks as 
>> easy--who cares?" But that would be presumptuous, obviously. 
>>
>> While I would I would not call it a "very big disadvantage," I would 
>> agree with Eric that the longer wheelbase bikes can present a little bit 
>> more of a challenge in apartment living, and when climbing and (especially 
>> with mixte/Clementine designs) when descending stairs. I would also agree 
>> the ride is worth it.
>>
>> On Monday, June 13, 2016 at 9:42:52 PM UTC-4, RJM wrote:
>>>
>>> Off road I feel they are a detriment especially when riding single 
>>> track. Getting a manual or wheelie happening (a skill used to pop over 
>>> logs, ext.) is not very easy with a long chain stay bike.
>>>
>>> But extra cargo capacity and probably stability are pros, I suppose. 
>>> They will probably help with a touring bike. 
>>>
>>

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[RBW] Re: Any benefits to the longer CS's?

[Eric Karnes]

Ha. I suppose 'very big disadvantage' was a bit extreme. I carted my 
commuter up and down a lot of stairs that day.

Eric


On Tuesday, June 14, 2016 at 7:14:37 AM UTC-4, Mark in Beacon wrote:
>
> I think "off road" is a little broad. Yes, at some point on some terrain 
> somewhere, any particular bike design will start to involve compromise. In 
> lots of directions, Rivendells take a lot longer to reach those compromises.
>
> Single track with lots of rocks and roots and logs would start to classify 
> as "technical" to me. Most Rivs are designed for, at a minimum, handling 
> basic dirt roads with aplomb, and  "trail" models like the Appaloosa can 
> get considerably rougher. But at some point, you may need to either 
> consider another machine, or do some "underbiking." (A term I use here for 
> ever so slight comic relief.) In other words, if a majority, or even a 
> significant minority, of one's riding landscape includes a bunch of 
> technical single track with many obstacles requiring constant wheelies, a 
> Rivendell might not be the machine. Or it might, but you need to a. walk 
> during the trickiest sections. b. figure a way to roll over them slowly, a 
> la a curb half-pop half-rollover style maneuver, or c. start a weight 
> training program to build upper body wheelie strength. Keeping in mind all 
> the while that Rivendells are also designed with more bb drop, which will 
> limit all that rock and log hoppin' probably as much as longer chainstays. 
> As a design parameter, safety and smooth ride, predicable handling in an 
> upright position would seem to be the goal more than gnarly single track 
> capabilities. Still, I took my Big Dummy on a few not-quite-hairy stretches 
> of single track without much problem. Definitely not a day to day thing, 
> though. I plan to climb Mt. Beacon with my Clementine this summer, will 
> report my findings!
>
> From the link I posted above:
>
> *Longer wheelbases make a bike more stable, smoother riding, less apt to 
>> get redirected by wind and bumps. Safer, I’d say. Easier to control at high 
>> speeds. So you can’t ride as small of a circle—who cares? You can still do 
>> a U-turn, you can still ride the bike anywhere you ought to be riding a 
>> bike. It’s just better when the chainstays are longer.*
>>
>
> I suppose you could add, "can't constantly pop over big logs and rocks as 
> easy--who cares?" But that would be presumptuous, obviously. 
>
> While I would I would not call it a "very big disadvantage," I would agree 
> with Eric that the longer wheelbase bikes can present a little bit more of 
> a challenge in apartment living, and when climbing and (especially with 
> mixte/Clementine designs) when descending stairs. I would also agree the 
> ride is worth it.
>
> On Monday, June 13, 2016 at 9:42:52 PM UTC-4, RJM wrote:
>>
>> Off road I feel they are a detriment especially when riding single track. 
>> Getting a manual or wheelie happening (a skill used to pop over logs, ext.) 
>> is not very easy with a long chain stay bike.
>>
>> But extra cargo capacity and probably stability are pros, I suppose. They 
>> will probably help with a touring bike. 
>>
>

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[RBW] Re: Any benefits to the longer CS's?

['Mojo' via RBW Owners Bunch]

Just to give a counter point to Richard's off-road observations, I have 
found long chainstays to be wonderful off-road. Now I have not ridden a 
bike with 21 inch CS like the 60cm Cheviot, but I have ridden 17 to 19 inch 
CS bikes. I have also ridden Surly bikes with rear dropouts/drop-ins where 
you can adjust your CS length. I have found my climbing ability increases 
with CS length, increasing my ability to keep the front wheel in contact 
with the ground. Interestingly long, 19 inch CS do not inhibit tight 
technical descents. I would agree with Richard that CS length works in 
tandem with other geometry components. I wrote up a review of the long CS 
Jones Plus bike on IBOB. 
https://groups.google.com/forum/?hl=en#!searchin/internet-bob/review$20of$20Jones$20Plus/internet-bob/v92_t69-FYQ/Mvy7_9-T1WkJ
And Jeff Jones gives a great talk on the design of that bike  
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kMkQ7z9Gi7c

On Monday, June 13, 2016 at 5:19:45 PM UTC-6, Richard Rios wrote:
>
> On road they are fine. Very laid back feeling, smooth and what others 
> mentioned. Off road I found I didn't like them so much especially if paired 
> with a long top tube and non swept back bars. My impression was it made it 
> to hard to get the front wheel up to go over obstacles so I ended up 
> plowing through stuff and it had the reverse effect of esentially making 
> the ride rougher...just my .02 impressions based off a long CS proto 
> hunqapillar.
>

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[RBW] Re: Any benefits to the longer CS's?

[Jon in central Colorado]

Kielsun,
Thanks for your input.Interesting.


On Tuesday, June 14, 2016 at 6:17:29 AM UTC-6, kielsun wrote:

> I've only spent about five minutes on a 60 Cheviot, so take this for FWIW, 
> but I did so immediately after finishing a ride on my 56 Sam. The Cheviot 
> felt super stable (in a good way), almost like I was an alligator and could 
> feel my tail trailing predictably behind me as I turned--a weird analogy, 
> but it's what I've got. I really enjoyed it, so much so that I momentarily 
> contemplated a Sam sale to partially fund one. :)
>
> My buddy who owns the Cheviot also raves about its character in ascending 
> and descending hills. He says he finds it much more stable in steep 
> sections, like its firmly planted on the ground without any fear of the 
> front wheel popping up. 
>

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[RBW] Re: Any benefits to the longer CS's?

[kielsun]

I've only spent about five minutes on a 60 Cheviot, so take this for FWIW, but 
I did so immediately after finishing a ride on my 56 Sam. The Cheviot felt 
super stable (in a good way), almost like I was an alligator and could feel my 
tail trailing predictably behind me as I turned--a weird analogy, but it's what 
I've got. I really enjoyed it, so much so that I momentarily contemplated a Sam 
sale to partially fund one. :)

My buddy who owns the Cheviot also raves about its character in ascending and 
descending hills. He says he finds it much more stable in steep sections, like 
its firmly planted on the ground without any fear of the front wheel popping 
up. 

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[RBW] Re: Any benefits to the longer CS's?

['Mark in Beacon' via RBW Owners Bunch]

I think "off road" is a little broad. Yes, at some point on some terrain 
somewhere, any particular bike design will start to involve compromise. In 
lots of directions, Rivendells take a lot longer to reach those compromises.

Single track with lots of rocks and roots and logs would start to classify 
as "technical" to me. Most Rivs are designed for, at a minimum, handling 
basic dirt roads with aplomb, and  "trail" models like the Appaloosa can 
get considerably rougher. But at some point, you may need to either 
consider another machine, or do some "underbiking." (A term I use here for 
ever so slight comic relief.) In other words, if a majority, or even a 
significant minority, of one's riding landscape includes a bunch of 
technical single track with many obstacles requiring constant wheelies, a 
Rivendell might not be the machine. Or it might, but you need to a. walk 
during the trickiest sections. b. figure a way to roll over them slowly, a 
la a curb half-pop half-rollover style maneuver, or c. start a weight 
training program to build upper body wheelie strength. Keeping in mind all 
the while that Rivendells are also designed with more bb drop, which will 
limit all that rock and log hoppin' probably as much as longer chainstays. 
As a design parameter, safety and smooth ride, predicable handling in an 
upright position would seem to be the goal more than gnarly single track 
capabilities. Still, I took my Big Dummy on a few not-quite-hairy stretches 
of single track without much problem. Definitely not a day to day thing, 
though. I plan to climb Mt. Beacon with my Clementine this summer, will 
report my findings!

>From the link I posted above:

*Longer wheelbases make a bike more stable, smoother riding, less apt to 
> get redirected by wind and bumps. Safer, I’d say. Easier to control at high 
> speeds. So you can’t ride as small of a circle—who cares? You can still do 
> a U-turn, you can still ride the bike anywhere you ought to be riding a 
> bike. It’s just better when the chainstays are longer.*
>

I suppose you could add, "can't constantly pop over big logs and rocks as 
easy--who cares?" But that would be presumptuous, obviously. 

While I would I would not call it a "very big disadvantage," I would agree 
with Eric that the longer wheelbase bikes can present a little bit more of 
a challenge in apartment living, and when climbing and (especially with 
mixte/Clementine designs) when descending stairs. I would also agree the 
ride is worth it.

On Monday, June 13, 2016 at 9:42:52 PM UTC-4, RJM wrote:
>
> Off road I feel they are a detriment especially when riding single track. 
> Getting a manual or wheelie happening (a skill used to pop over logs, ext.) 
> is not very easy with a long chain stay bike.
>
> But extra cargo capacity and probably stability are pros, I suppose. They 
> will probably help with a touring bike. 
>

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[RBW] Re: Any benefits to the longer CS's?

[Joe Bernard]

I agree with your impressions, Jeremy. I've owned any number of bikes with 
upright bars/talk stems, including several Rivs, and my CLEM is the first one 
to handle them (on pavement) with a "planted" feel to the front end. All the 
other ones were a bit recumbentish in that the rear always felt like it was dug 
in and pushing, while the front felt like it might wash out in a hard-charged 
corner. The CLEM is much more balanced for that riding position.  

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[RBW] Re: Any benefits to the longer CS's?

[Jeremy Till]

Most of the thread has focused on the benefits/deteriments for off-roading, 
but I feel that the long chainstay thing has real benefits for 
road/pavement riding with upright bars.  I've done a fair bit of riding on 
bikes with "normal" chainstays (Quickbeam and LHT) and upright handlebars 
(Alba, Bosco, Avenir Circa) and when you really raise the bars for comfort, 
you noticeably reduce the weight on the front wheel, making the controls a 
bit more squirrely and making you less confident about cornering with real 
speed, lest the front wheel washes out on you.  The long chainstays 
redistribute the weight and help have more cornering confidence with an 
upright riding position.  Maybe not a big deal for some but maybe something 
you think about if, for instance, you ride your bike with upright bars up 
Mt. Diablo and then do the very curvy descent down.  

At least that's my understanding of the theory/impetus behind the long stay 
bikes, from talking to Keven and reading Grant's words, and my experience 
riding longtail cargo bikes.  I just built up my Clem and it definitely has 
a lot more front wheel authority than my LHT did with upright bars.  I 
haven't ridden it much but I'm looking forward to getting more miles on a 
Riv long chainstay design, both on road and off

On Monday, June 13, 2016 at 3:12:12 PM UTC-7, Lungimsam wrote:
>
> More rivmodels headed that way.
>
> Cant think of any benefits other than stability, which rivs already have 
> plenty of, off top of my head.
> Was wondering what makes it worth the extra weight, 2 chains needed, and 
> less maneuverability due to longer bike length in garages, near bike racks, 
> BARTs, carrying through house, etc,
>

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[RBW] Re: Any benefits to the longer CS's?

[Eric Karnes]

I assumed OP was referring to the move to suuuper long chain stays on bikes 
like the Appaloosa and Clem. 


I was wondering this myself. I actually really like it on frames like the 
Appaloosa. Reminds me of (an extended version of) the old steel Specialized 
Rockhopper I saved up for as a kid. That bike was really fun on trails. 
Super stable and felt like it could roll over anything (or so remembers my 
14-year-old self). 


That said, I hope they stick with some of the more standardized (for them) 
chain stays. As someone who lives in a small apartment and locks up bikes 
in the city, super long wheelbased bikes are a very big disadvantage. Even 
slightly longer chain stays make a noticeable difference when carrying a 
bike daily up and down three flights of stairs. Of course on most Rivs the 
ride makes this 100% worth it.


Eric

On Monday, June 13, 2016 at 6:12:12 PM UTC-4, Lungimsam wrote:
>
> More rivmodels headed that way.
>
> Cant think of any benefits other than stability, which rivs already have 
> plenty of, off top of my head.
> Was wondering what makes it worth the extra weight, 2 chains needed, and 
> less maneuverability due to longer bike length in garages, near bike racks, 
> BARTs, carrying through house, etc,
>

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[RBW] Re: Any benefits to the longer CS's?

[Deacon Patrick]

Fascinating, Richard. Thank you. The longer chain stay Hunqapillar is one 
of the things I've wondered about. That makes perfect sense, and matches 
what I've seen my lassies do when they ride through things on their 
Clementines. I couldn't tell how much was long chain stays and how much was 
they are still wee compared to the frame. Some of both I suspect. Not 
having the ability to pop the front wheel over rocks and roots with 
relative ease (even with a small front load) would drive me nuts 
(admittedly a trip I could crawl rather than drive. Sardonic grin.). 

With abandon,
Patrick

On Monday, June 13, 2016 at 5:19:45 PM UTC-6, Richard Rios wrote:
>
> On road they are fine. Very laid back feeling, smooth and what others 
> mentioned. Off road I found I didn't like them so much especially if paired 
> with a long top tube and non swept back bars. My impression was it made it 
> to hard to get the front wheel up to go over obstacles so I ended up 
> plowing through stuff and it had the reverse effect of esentially making 
> the ride rougher...just my .02 impressions based off a long CS proto 
> hunqapillar.
>

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[RBW] Re: Any benefits to the longer CS's?

['Mark in Beacon' via RBW Owners Bunch]

https://www.rivbike.com/kb_results.asp?ID=112


On Monday, June 13, 2016 at 6:12:12 PM UTC-4, Lungimsam wrote:
>
> More rivmodels headed that way.
>
> Cant think of any benefits other than stability, which rivs already have 
> plenty of, off top of my head.
> Was wondering what makes it worth the extra weight, 2 chains needed, and 
> less maneuverability due to longer bike length in garages, near bike racks, 
> BARTs, carrying through house, etc,
>

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