Re: [RBW] Re: BQ to publish study of pedal retention usefulness in Summer issue

[Patrick Moore]

It was not as big a feature as we had hoped; merely a sidebar to a bike
review where Jan briefly tried MKS Urban pedals with half clips and didn't
like them. His earlier blog post had let us hope that they were going to do
a study.

Study or not, I have to say that I agree with Jan, to the point where I'd
rather walk in SPDs than ride in street shoes. (If I have to put on special
shoes for pedaling, I'd rather wear ones with cleats, and SPDs are my
choice.) I briefly put the Urbans on the Dahon and hated them, which is odd
because 5-10 years ago I used to like MKS GR-9s with clips and straps, and
the Urbans are better than the GR-9s.

On Tue, Oct 13, 2015 at 12:18 PM, George Schick  wrote:

> Now that Summer is long past, does anyone who subscribes to BQ have a
> synopsis of what they found out about pedal retention usefulness that
> they'd like to share?
>
>
> On Friday, May 15, 2015 at 9:23:53 AM UTC-5, Patrick Moore wrote:
>>
>> Doubtless of interest to RBW listers. Quoted from the Compass blog for
>> those who don't read it or BQ.
>>
>> I'll be very interested myself, as someone hitherto convinced that
>> retention is a great help. If tests show that retention doesn't help, I'd
>> probably still keep retention on my fixed gears, for safety, and because
>> they do undoubtedly allow pulling up for more torque when climbing steep
>> hills, but would undoubtedly switch to platforms for my off road derailleur
>> bike.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> *Jayme Frye says:May 15, 2015 at 6:27 amI was with you up until SPD
>> clipless pedals. I am not convinced there is any need for retention systems
>> outside the ultra competitive world of pro cycling (primarily sprints).
>> Perhaps you could use your testing methods on the claims that pedal
>> retention systems are more efficient and allow the rider to produce more
>> power by pulling up. That would make for a great BQ article.CheersReplyJan
>> Heine, Editor, Bicycle Quarterly says:May 15, 2015 at 6:55 amWe did test
>> this. It’s in the Summer issue, which will come out soon…Reply*
>>
>> --
>> Resumes, LinkedIn profiles, bios, and letters that get interviews.
>> By-the-hour resume and LinkedIn coaching.
>> Other professional writing services.
>> http://www.resumespecialties.com/
>> www.linkedin.com/in/patrickmooreresumespec/
>> Patrick Moore
>> Alburquerque, Nouvelle Mexique,  Vereinigte Staaten
>>
>> *
>> *The point which is the pivot of the norm is the motionless center of a
>> circumference on the rim of which all conditions, distinctions, and
>> individualities revolve. *Chuang Tzu
>>
>> *Kinei hos eromenon. It moves as the being-loved. *Aristotle
>>
>> *The Love that moves the Sun and all the other stars. *Dante
>>
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*
*The point which is the pivot of the norm is the motionless center of a
circumference on the rim of which all conditions, distinctions, and
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*Stat crux dum volvitur orbis.* Carthusian motto

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[RBW] Re: BQ to publish study of pedal retention usefulness in Summer issue

[Rod Holland]

Oops, did miss it. It was a short sidebar to a review, "MKS Rinko Pedals". 
Best summary is last paragraph:

Retentionless pedals work great on flat roads. Uphills, especially short 
> rises, are easier when your feet are firmly attached to the pedals.


 As some of the folks on this thread have pointed out, there is a degree of 
rider familiarity with the equipment in play here; those of us who do this 
every day have hill climbing strategies, and that wasn't evaluated. This 
looks like an impression, made in good faith, not an exhaustive study.

rod

On Wednesday, October 14, 2015 at 10:20:23 AM UTC-4, Rod Holland wrote:
>
> Just scanned the tables of contents for the Summer and Autumn issues, and 
> didn't see it. Maybe I missed it.
>
> rod
>
> On Tuesday, October 13, 2015 at 2:18:13 PM UTC-4, George Schick wrote:
>>
>> Now that Summer is long past, does anyone who subscribes to BQ have a 
>> synopsis of what they found out about pedal retention usefulness that 
>> they'd like to share? 
>>
>>
>> On Friday, May 15, 2015 at 9:23:53 AM UTC-5, Patrick Moore wrote:
>>>
>>> Doubtless of interest to RBW listers. Quoted from the Compass blog for 
>>> those who don't read it or BQ.
>>>
>>> I'll be very interested myself, as someone hitherto convinced that 
>>> retention is a great help. If tests show that retention doesn't help, I'd 
>>> probably still keep retention on my fixed gears, for safety, and because 
>>> they do undoubtedly allow pulling up for more torque when climbing steep 
>>> hills, but would undoubtedly switch to platforms for my off road derailleur 
>>> bike.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *Jayme Frye says:May 15, 2015 at 6:27 amI was with you up until SPD 
>>> clipless pedals. I am not convinced there is any need for retention systems 
>>> outside the ultra competitive world of pro cycling (primarily sprints). 
>>> Perhaps you could use your testing methods on the claims that pedal 
>>> retention systems are more efficient and allow the rider to produce more 
>>> power by pulling up. That would make for a great BQ article.CheersReplyJan 
>>> Heine, Editor, Bicycle Quarterly says:May 15, 2015 at 6:55 amWe did test 
>>> this. It’s in the Summer issue, which will come out soon…Reply*
>>>
>>> -- 
>>> Resumes, LinkedIn profiles, bios, and letters that get interviews.
>>> By-the-hour resume and LinkedIn coaching.
>>> Other professional writing services.
>>> http://www.resumespecialties.com/
>>> www.linkedin.com/in/patrickmooreresumespec/
>>> Patrick Moore
>>> Alburquerque, Nouvelle Mexique,  Vereinigte Staaten
>>>
>>> *
>>> *The point which is the pivot of the norm is the motionless center of a 
>>> circumference on the rim of which all conditions, distinctions, and 
>>> individualities revolve. *Chuang Tzu
>>>
>>> *Kinei hos eromenon. It moves as the being-loved. *Aristotle
>>>
>>> *The Love that moves the Sun and all the other stars. *Dante  
>>>
>>

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[RBW] Re: BQ to publish study of pedal retention usefulness in Summer issue

[Rod Holland]

Just scanned the tables of contents for the Summer and Autumn issues, and 
didn't see it. Maybe I missed it.

rod

On Tuesday, October 13, 2015 at 2:18:13 PM UTC-4, George Schick wrote:
>
> Now that Summer is long past, does anyone who subscribes to BQ have a 
> synopsis of what they found out about pedal retention usefulness that 
> they'd like to share? 
>
>
> On Friday, May 15, 2015 at 9:23:53 AM UTC-5, Patrick Moore wrote:
>>
>> Doubtless of interest to RBW listers. Quoted from the Compass blog for 
>> those who don't read it or BQ.
>>
>> I'll be very interested myself, as someone hitherto convinced that 
>> retention is a great help. If tests show that retention doesn't help, I'd 
>> probably still keep retention on my fixed gears, for safety, and because 
>> they do undoubtedly allow pulling up for more torque when climbing steep 
>> hills, but would undoubtedly switch to platforms for my off road derailleur 
>> bike.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> *Jayme Frye says:May 15, 2015 at 6:27 amI was with you up until SPD 
>> clipless pedals. I am not convinced there is any need for retention systems 
>> outside the ultra competitive world of pro cycling (primarily sprints). 
>> Perhaps you could use your testing methods on the claims that pedal 
>> retention systems are more efficient and allow the rider to produce more 
>> power by pulling up. That would make for a great BQ article.CheersReplyJan 
>> Heine, Editor, Bicycle Quarterly says:May 15, 2015 at 6:55 amWe did test 
>> this. It’s in the Summer issue, which will come out soon…Reply*
>>
>> -- 
>> Resumes, LinkedIn profiles, bios, and letters that get interviews.
>> By-the-hour resume and LinkedIn coaching.
>> Other professional writing services.
>> http://www.resumespecialties.com/
>> www.linkedin.com/in/patrickmooreresumespec/
>> Patrick Moore
>> Alburquerque, Nouvelle Mexique,  Vereinigte Staaten
>>
>> *
>> *The point which is the pivot of the norm is the motionless center of a 
>> circumference on the rim of which all conditions, distinctions, and 
>> individualities revolve. *Chuang Tzu
>>
>> *Kinei hos eromenon. It moves as the being-loved. *Aristotle
>>
>> *The Love that moves the Sun and all the other stars. *Dante  
>>
>

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RE: [RBW] Re: BQ to publish study of pedal retention usefulness in Summer issue

[Allingham II, Thomas J]

"My summation is this : there is nothing to gain or lose regardless of any 
choice"

Lack of any consequence to any decision might provide a disincentive to give 
any thought to the decision itself.  Is this really what you meant to say?

From: rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com 
[mailto:rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Garth
Sent: Wednesday, October 14, 2015 4:27 PM
To: RBW Owners Bunch
Subject: [RBW] Re: BQ to publish study of pedal retention usefulness in Summer 
issue


   As always of course , everyone decides for themselves !  Just because "j. 
doe" says it is so does not make it so .

I ride up all sorts of short steep hills over hill and dale in Crocs for 
goodness sakes  . .  .. which are essentially foam .  Crocs slides even, not 
the clog style with the strap on back. .  Bacǩ when I thought I was some-body 
with some-thing to prove, I had to have clipless.  Now being no-body there is 
no-thing to prove to any-body .

My summation is this : there is nothing to gain or lose regardless of any choice



On Wednesday, October 14, 2015 at 10:28:41 AM UTC-4, Rod Holland wrote:


Retentionless pedals work great on flat roads. Uphills, especially short rises, 
are easier when your feet are firmly attached to the pedals.

 As some of the folks on this thread have pointed out, there is a degree of 
rider familiarity with the equipment in play here; those of us who do this 
every day have hill climbing strategies, and that wasn't evaluated. This looks 
like an impression, made in good faith, not an exhaustive study.

rod

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Re: [RBW] Re: BQ to publish study of pedal retention usefulness in Summer issue

[ascpgh]

Jan's point rang very true for me too. 

All data aside, my adult cycling experience grew out of self-conducted 
recovery from an injury that made my connection to the bike less Mark 
Cavendish or Keirin racers, more about how to manage my altered 
proprioception and all-around poise that came from a solid connection to 
the bike in all phases of riding, easy or hard. 

If you don't know your foot has floated off the pedal at TDC, 
characteristics of pedals and footwear really fade on your list of 
preferences. I just needed a way to keep that one on the pedal until the 
downstroke. Wore through several shoes' uppers with strap buckles before 
clipless (Patrick has a nice pair of my old cage/strap pedals).

Better now, but I feel how completely, discretely ingrained my snapped-in 
foot connection is to everything involved in my physical act of pedaling 
and the resulting  input it provides being my baseline. I shudder at the 
memory of places I rode my mountain bike in the '80s with clips and straps 
providing that necessary connection. Was a big fan of William Neely's 
illustrations of mountain biking skills, techniques (and consequences). His 
river guides were pretty awesome too. 

Andy Cheatham
Pittsburgh

On Wednesday, October 14, 2015 at 10:27:06 AM UTC-4, Patrick Moore wrote:
>
> It was not as big a feature as we had hoped; merely a sidebar to a bike 
> review where Jan briefly tried MKS Urban pedals with half clips and didn't 
> like them. His earlier blog post had let us hope that they were going to do 
> a study.
>
> Study or not, I have to say that I agree with Jan, to the point where I'd 
> rather walk in SPDs than ride in street shoes. (If I have to put on special 
> shoes for pedaling, I'd rather wear ones with cleats, and SPDs are my 
> choice.) I briefly put the Urbans on the Dahon and hated them, which is odd 
> because 5-10 years ago I used to like MKS GR-9s with clips and straps, and 
> the Urbans are better than the GR-9s.
>
> On Tue, Oct 13, 2015 at 12:18 PM, George Schick  > wrote:
>
>> Now that Summer is long past, does anyone who subscribes to BQ have a 
>> synopsis of what they found out about pedal retention usefulness that 
>> they'd like to share? 
>>
>>
>> On Friday, May 15, 2015 at 9:23:53 AM UTC-5, Patrick Moore wrote:
>>>
>>> Doubtless of interest to RBW listers. Quoted from the Compass blog for 
>>> those who don't read it or BQ.
>>>
>>> I'll be very interested myself, as someone hitherto convinced that 
>>> retention is a great help. If tests show that retention doesn't help, I'd 
>>> probably still keep retention on my fixed gears, for safety, and because 
>>> they do undoubtedly allow pulling up for more torque when climbing steep 
>>> hills, but would undoubtedly switch to platforms for my off road derailleur 
>>> bike.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *Jayme Frye says:May 15, 2015 at 6:27 amI was with you up until SPD 
>>> clipless pedals. I am not convinced there is any need for retention systems 
>>> outside the ultra competitive world of pro cycling (primarily sprints). 
>>> Perhaps you could use your testing methods on the claims that pedal 
>>> retention systems are more efficient and allow the rider to produce more 
>>> power by pulling up. That would make for a great BQ article.CheersReplyJan 
>>> Heine, Editor, Bicycle Quarterly says:May 15, 2015 at 6:55 amWe did test 
>>> this. It’s in the Summer issue, which will come out soon…Reply*
>>>
>>> -- 
>>> Resumes, LinkedIn profiles, bios, and letters that get interviews.
>>> By-the-hour resume and LinkedIn coaching.
>>> Other professional writing services.
>>> http://www.resumespecialties.com/
>>> www.linkedin.com/in/patrickmooreresumespec/
>>> Patrick Moore
>>> Alburquerque, Nouvelle Mexique,  Vereinigte Staaten
>>>
>>> *
>>> *The point which is the pivot of the norm is the motionless center of a 
>>> circumference on the rim of which all conditions, distinctions, and 
>>> individualities revolve. *Chuang Tzu
>>>
>>> *Kinei hos eromenon. It moves as the being-loved. *Aristotle
>>>
>>> *The Love that moves the Sun and all the other stars. *Dante  
>>>
>> -- 
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>> "RBW Owners Bunch" group.
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>> email to rbw-owners-bun...@googlegroups.com .
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>>
>
>
>
> -- 
> Resumes, LinkedIn profiles, bios, and letters that get interviews.
> By-the-hour resume and LinkedIn coaching.
> Other professional writing services.
> http://www.resumespecialties.com/
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> Patrick Moore
> Alburquerque, Nouvelle Mexique,  Vereinigte Staaten
>
> 

[RBW] Re: BQ to publish study of pedal retention usefulness in Summer issue

[Edwin W]

>
> As I ride without retention, I think of myself JUST like this guy!
>
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ud5T5I4XcA

Riding free,

Edwin

>   
>

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[RBW] Re: BQ to publish study of pedal retention usefulness in Summer issue

[Garth]

   As always of course , everyone decides for themselves !  Just because 
"j. doe" says it is so does not make it so .  

I ride up all sorts of short steep hills over hill and dale in Crocs for 
goodness sakes  . .  .. which are essentially foam .  Crocs slides even, 
not the clog style with the strap on back. .  Bacǩ when I thought I was 
some-body with some-thing to prove, I had to have clipless.  Now being 
no-body there is no-thing to prove to any-body . 

My summation is this : 
*there is nothing to gain or lose regardless of any choice *


On Wednesday, October 14, 2015 at 10:28:41 AM UTC-4, Rod Holland wrote:
>
>
>
> Retentionless pedals work great on flat roads. Uphills, especially short 
>> rises, are easier when your feet are firmly attached to the pedals.
>
>
>  As some of the folks on this thread have pointed out, there is a degree 
> of rider familiarity with the equipment in play here; those of us who do 
> this every day have hill climbing strategies, and that wasn't evaluated. 
> This looks like an impression, made in good faith, not an exhaustive study.
>
> rod
>
>
>

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[RBW] Re: BQ to publish study of pedal retention usefulness in Summer issue

[George Schick]

Now that Summer is long past, does anyone who subscribes to BQ have a 
synopsis of what they found out about pedal retention usefulness that 
they'd like to share? 


On Friday, May 15, 2015 at 9:23:53 AM UTC-5, Patrick Moore wrote:
>
> Doubtless of interest to RBW listers. Quoted from the Compass blog for 
> those who don't read it or BQ.
>
> I'll be very interested myself, as someone hitherto convinced that 
> retention is a great help. If tests show that retention doesn't help, I'd 
> probably still keep retention on my fixed gears, for safety, and because 
> they do undoubtedly allow pulling up for more torque when climbing steep 
> hills, but would undoubtedly switch to platforms for my off road derailleur 
> bike.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> *Jayme Frye says:May 15, 2015 at 6:27 amI was with you up until SPD 
> clipless pedals. I am not convinced there is any need for retention systems 
> outside the ultra competitive world of pro cycling (primarily sprints). 
> Perhaps you could use your testing methods on the claims that pedal 
> retention systems are more efficient and allow the rider to produce more 
> power by pulling up. That would make for a great BQ article.CheersReplyJan 
> Heine, Editor, Bicycle Quarterly says:May 15, 2015 at 6:55 amWe did test 
> this. It’s in the Summer issue, which will come out soon…Reply*
>
> -- 
> Resumes, LinkedIn profiles, bios, and letters that get interviews.
> By-the-hour resume and LinkedIn coaching.
> Other professional writing services.
> http://www.resumespecialties.com/
> www.linkedin.com/in/patrickmooreresumespec/
> Patrick Moore
> Alburquerque, Nouvelle Mexique,  Vereinigte Staaten
>
> *
> *The point which is the pivot of the norm is the motionless center of a 
> circumference on the rim of which all conditions, distinctions, and 
> individualities revolve. *Chuang Tzu
>
> *Kinei hos eromenon. It moves as the being-loved. *Aristotle
>
> *The Love that moves the Sun and all the other stars. *Dante  
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: BQ to publish study of pedal retention usefulness in Summer issue

[Patrick Moore]

This just in: from the VO blog. Obviously rigorous, high and pure science.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CNedIJBZpgMfeature=youtu.be

Seriously, if not exactly rigorous or pure, still interesting. (The rigor
is at the level of the BQ observations: anecdotal, but still informative.)

For my own particular purposes, the key remarks are at the end: forget
racing, but when you ride fixed, or even if you tend to mash rather than
spin,  or hells, even when you are spinning hard as you accelerate, you not
infrequently find yourself pulling up rather hard, or at least, pulling
around with some energy. Certainly you do so when climbing steep hills, but
also simply when accelerating, seated as well as standing, as when,
sitting, you accelerate hard to make a light. At least, I myself *do* pedal
in circles to some extent when, sprinting to make a light or trying vainly
to impress onlookers.

On Thu, Jun 11, 2015 at 4:28 AM, Richard rlh3...@gmail.com wrote:

 You said it Patrick, the ability to move ones feet while riding is a huge
 benefit. Even slight movements make a big difference.

 I don't get BQ's opening the lid analogy, nor do I understand this
 statement When my feet are firmly attached to the pedals, I may not
 actually pull up, but I am using the pedal that is moving upward as a fixed
 point to push against with my downstroke leg.

 What? How can the upward moving pedal be a fixed point to push against?

 I'm not against clipless, I used them for many years, but the arguments in
 favor of, aren't convincing to me anymore. I know I'm in the minority here,
 but switching to platform pedals with pins has changed my mind about the
 need for foot retention for any type of riding. Just my experience, take it
 with a grain of salt.

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*
*The point which is the pivot of the norm is the motionless center of a
circumference on the rim of which all conditions, distinctions, and
individualities revolve. *Chuang Tzu

*Kinei hos eromenon. It moves as the being-loved. *Aristotle

*The Love that moves the Sun and all the other stars. *Dante

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RE: [RBW] Re: BQ to publish study of pedal retention usefulness in Summer issue

[olofstroh]

Steve wrote (and Patrick more added some interesting comments):
Let's face it: those who like flat pedals - pedals without retention devices 
- aren't after performance gains that can be measured objectively.  They're 
after comfort and convenience.  Some riders can make them work quite 
effectively, and are happy to accept whatever objective performance deficits 
they may have.

I have flat BMX pedals (albeit, without pins) on my shopper.  I would never 
ride long distances on such a pedal: my feet slip off, and they often sit 
crooked on the pedals and I end up stepping on the crank arm or the chain stay. 
 I'm very happy to have a pedal retention system take care of positioning my 
feet, while allowing me to lift my foot without worrying about it losing its 
place on the pedal or coming off entirely.  
I doubt the lifting of my feet substantially adds to power, as die hard 
advocates proclaim, but that's not the only reason to do it.

I'm surprised this discussion has had so much staying power.  It's a relatively 
trivial issue, as far as I'm concerned.

...

I don´t know your respective bicycling history but methinks this is to a high 
degree a brain thing. When learning a new thing the brain grows new synapses to 
cope. This takes time. At age 46 I became obsessed with dancing; quick-step, 
tango, slowfox, rumba, chacha, that sort of thing, also lindy hop. Trained 
maybe 8-10 hours per week for some years. I´m not without talent but it took 
some three years before I could call myself a good dancer, the synapses had to 
grew first.

The same with cycling. I started to ride intensively at age 5 and have never 
stopped (now 72). Didn´t meet retention until over 30. I´m a natural spinner 
and rides both roads and trails. On flat rubber pedals, never got enamoured by 
retention. This comes very natural and effortless. Can´t remember when a foot 
slipped.

May it be that your brain over time grews connections to cope effectively with 
the system you´re using and that changing system can feel strange and 
inefficient for a long time, maybe years, until the new system literally grows 
on you?

Olof Stroh
Uppsala Sweden
where it doesn´t get dark at night this time of the year



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Re: [RBW] Re: BQ to publish study of pedal retention usefulness in Summer issue

[Matthew J]

Improper content reported.

On Saturday, June 13, 2015 at 5:28:04 AM UTC-5, Ron Mc wrote:

 actually, this thread went to the toilet long ago, and Steve, you and 
 Matthew J filled it

 On Friday, June 12, 2015 at 4:47:07 PM UTC-5, Steve Palincsar wrote:



 I'm surprised this discussion has had so much staying power.  It's a 
 relatively trivial issue, as far as I'm concerned. 



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Re: [RBW] Re: BQ to publish study of pedal retention usefulness in Summer issue

[Ron Mc]

actually, this thread went to the toilet long ago, and Steve, you and 
Matthew J filled it

On Friday, June 12, 2015 at 4:47:07 PM UTC-5, Steve Palincsar wrote:



 I'm surprised this discussion has had so much staying power.  It's a 
 relatively trivial issue, as far as I'm concerned. 


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RE: [RBW] Re: BQ to publish study of pedal retention usefulness in Summer issue

[olofstroh]

Out for two hours this morning, tried to observe what I did. Found that I do 
lift my foot so that there is no pressure on the pedal, but foot still in 
kontakt with the pedal. On the flats and on the hills. Must be an automatic 
brain thing.

And first time this year in only a t-shirt and shorts!

Olof

-Original Message-
From: rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com 
[mailto:rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of olofst...@gmail.com
Sent: Saturday, June 13, 2015 8:56 AM
To: rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com
Subject: RE: [RBW] Re: BQ to publish study of pedal retention usefulness in 
Summer issue

Steve wrote (and Patrick more added some interesting comments):
Let's face it: those who like flat pedals - pedals without retention devices 
- aren't after performance gains that can be measured objectively.  They're 
after comfort and convenience.  Some riders can make them work quite 
effectively, and are happy to accept whatever objective performance deficits 
they may have.

I have flat BMX pedals (albeit, without pins) on my shopper.  I would never 
ride long distances on such a pedal: my feet slip off, and they often sit 
crooked on the pedals and I end up stepping on the crank arm or the chain stay. 
 I'm very happy to have a pedal retention system take care of positioning my 
feet, while allowing me to lift my foot without worrying about it losing its 
place on the pedal or coming off entirely.  
I doubt the lifting of my feet substantially adds to power, as die hard 
advocates proclaim, but that's not the only reason to do it.

I'm surprised this discussion has had so much staying power.  It's a relatively 
trivial issue, as far as I'm concerned.

...

I don´t know your respective bicycling history but methinks this is to a high 
degree a brain thing. When learning a new thing the brain grows new synapses to 
cope. This takes time. At age 46 I became obsessed with dancing; quick-step, 
tango, slowfox, rumba, chacha, that sort of thing, also lindy hop. Trained 
maybe 8-10 hours per week for some years. I´m not without talent but it took 
some three years before I could call myself a good dancer, the synapses had to 
grew first.

The same with cycling. I started to ride intensively at age 5 and have never 
stopped (now 72). Didn´t meet retention until over 30. I´m a natural spinner 
and rides both roads and trails. On flat rubber pedals, never got enamoured by 
retention. This comes very natural and effortless. Can´t remember when a foot 
slipped.

May it be that your brain over time grews connections to cope effectively with 
the system you´re using and that changing system can feel strange and 
inefficient for a long time, maybe years, until the new system literally grows 
on you?

Olof Stroh
Uppsala Sweden
where it doesn´t get dark at night this time of the year



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Re: [RBW] Re: BQ to publish study of pedal retention usefulness in Summer issue

[Steve Palincsar]

On 06/13/2015 02:56 AM, olofst...@gmail.com wrote:

I started to ride intensively at age 5 and have never stopped (now 72). Didn´t 
meet retention until over 30. I´m a natural spinner and rides both roads and 
trails. On flat rubber pedals, never got enamoured by retention. This comes 
very natural and effortless. Can´t remember when a foot slipped.

May it be that your brain over time grews connections to cope effectively with 
the system you´re using and that changing system can feel strange and 
inefficient for a long time, maybe years, until the new system literally grows 
on you?


I rode flat rubber pedals when I was a kid.

When I first got a derailleur bike in 1964 it had toe clips and straps.  
I rode with clips and straps for well over 20 years and then switched to 
clipless: first, Mavic Look-alikes with float, then SPDs.  It's been 
around 24 years with clipless.


I used retentionless pedals on my commuters for 15 years - first rubber 
3-speed Raleigh pedals for 5 years, then MTB style that look like a bear 
trap for 10.  I still bear scars from the raking those bear traps gave 
my shin one time when I kicked the pedal around a bit too 
enthusiastically, never having noticed that the occasional grounding on 
a sharp climbing 180 degree turn on the bike trail had sharpened them.  
So in 1995 I gave them up, and didn't try retentionless pedals again 
until 4 or 5 years ago.


So, for me, lots and lots of experience with both types, and lots of 
disappointment with those BMX flatties Grant was so enthusiastic about 
when he was selling them.


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Re: [RBW] Re: BQ to publish study of pedal retention usefulness in Summer issue

[Edwin W]

 It's a relatively trivial issue, as far as I'm concerned.  Now that has 
never limited a thread, has it?

Cheerfully,

Edwin

On Friday, June 12, 2015 at 4:47:07 PM UTC-5, Steve Palincsar wrote:

 On 06/12/2015 05:33 PM, Edwin W wrote: 
  I think that Jan does a great job of disclosing and being honest in 
  reviews AND having a business that runs on a certain kind of biking 
  introduces a bias.. which is why he should disclose! It is impossible 
  to measure this bias, we all have to work out in our mind how much he 
  is biased. 
  In my mind, things like the assessment of clipless pedal and going up 
  short hills involves a grain of salt because it is not as rigorous as 
  some of his other testing. A really good test would be to randomize a 
  bunch of different kinds of cyclists to clipless and flats for each 
  ride over a long period of time involving lots of different kinds of 
  cycling and look at the average speeds with and without. But who is 
  going to conduct that? 
  What outcome would matter the most? Speed differential up a hill? Over 
  a week of commuting? Over a year? 
  

 Let's face it: those who like flat pedals - pedals without retention 
 devices - aren't after performance gains that can be measured 
 objectively.  They're after comfort and convenience.  Some riders can 
 make them work quite effectively, and are happy to accept whatever 
 objective performance deficits they may have. 

 I have flat BMX pedals (albeit, without pins) on my shopper.  I would 
 never ride long distances on such a pedal: my feet slip off, and they 
 often sit crooked on the pedals and I end up stepping on the crank arm 
 or the chain stay.  I'm very happy to have a pedal retention system take 
 care of positioning my feet, while allowing me to lift my foot without 
 worrying about it losing its place on the pedal or coming off entirely.   
 I doubt the lifting of my feet substantially adds to power, as die hard 
 advocates proclaim, but that's not the only reason to do it. 

 I'm surprised this discussion has had so much staying power.  It's a 
 relatively trivial issue, as far as I'm concerned. 


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Re: [RBW] Re: BQ to publish study of pedal retention usefulness in Summer issue

[Steve Palincsar]

On 06/12/2015 05:33 PM, Edwin W wrote:
I think that Jan does a great job of disclosing and being honest in 
reviews AND having a business that runs on a certain kind of biking 
introduces a bias.. which is why he should disclose! It is impossible 
to measure this bias, we all have to work out in our mind how much he 
is biased.
In my mind, things like the assessment of clipless pedal and going up 
short hills involves a grain of salt because it is not as rigorous as 
some of his other testing. A really good test would be to randomize a 
bunch of different kinds of cyclists to clipless and flats for each 
ride over a long period of time involving lots of different kinds of 
cycling and look at the average speeds with and without. But who is 
going to conduct that?
What outcome would matter the most? Speed differential up a hill? Over 
a week of commuting? Over a year?




Let's face it: those who like flat pedals - pedals without retention 
devices - aren't after performance gains that can be measured 
objectively.  They're after comfort and convenience.  Some riders can 
make them work quite effectively, and are happy to accept whatever 
objective performance deficits they may have.


I have flat BMX pedals (albeit, without pins) on my shopper.  I would 
never ride long distances on such a pedal: my feet slip off, and they 
often sit crooked on the pedals and I end up stepping on the crank arm 
or the chain stay.  I'm very happy to have a pedal retention system take 
care of positioning my feet, while allowing me to lift my foot without 
worrying about it losing its place on the pedal or coming off entirely.  
I doubt the lifting of my feet substantially adds to power, as die hard 
advocates proclaim, but that's not the only reason to do it.


I'm surprised this discussion has had so much staying power.  It's a 
relatively trivial issue, as far as I'm concerned.


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[RBW] Re: BQ to publish study of pedal retention usefulness in Summer issue

[Edwin W]

I think that Jan does a great job of disclosing and being honest in reviews 
AND having a business that runs on a certain kind of biking introduces a 
bias.. which is why he should disclose! It is impossible to measure this 
bias, we all have to work out in our mind how much he is biased.
In my mind, things like the assessment of clipless pedal and going up short 
hills involves a grain of salt because it is not as rigorous as some of his 
other testing. A really good test would be to randomize a bunch of 
different kinds of cyclists to clipless and flats for each ride over a long 
period of time involving lots of different kinds of cycling and look at the 
average speeds with and without. But who is going to conduct that?
What outcome would matter the most? Speed differential up a hill? Over a 
week of commuting? Over a year? 

Love BQ and the Compass products,

Edwin

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Re: [RBW] Re: BQ to publish study of pedal retention usefulness in Summer issue

[Steve Palincsar]

On 06/12/2015 05:49 PM, Edwin W wrote:
 It's a relatively trivial issue, as far as I'm concerned.  Now that 
has never limited a thread, has it?





Well, that's certainly true.


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Re: [RBW] Re: BQ to publish study of pedal retention usefulness in Summer issue

[Patrick Moore]

Steve: Although I am someone who hasn't used non-retention pedals since
1970 (that's a wee bit hyperbolic but largely true) I have to weigh in for
the other side and say that I, personally, have heard too much from riders
with enough experience and certainly enough power output about the joys of
non-retention, *and this for very competitive riding,* that I, personally,
have to keep a bit of an open mind for the possibility that non-retention
has real performance advantages. I mention again young Vaughn of local ss
cyclocross fame and Bruce Boyson erstwhile of the Boblist. Bruce in
particular is, from what I gathered, an experienced cyclist, not just a
last-minute wonder with freakish power output despite self imposed
obstacles. Once again, Bruce used to boast of leaving his clipped in, fully
suspended, 3X10 peers in his single speed, rigid steel, flat-pedal dust.
And he was 50 or so when I last heard him on the Boblist.

I *know* that I gain torque from pulling up on the passive pedal while I
torque down on the power pedal while pulling up hard on the bar. I am
beginning to think, after trying the various puzzle pieces, that
retentionless works best, even in performance situations, with low gearing,
relatively high cadence, and relatively low torque. I may be wrong.

So: I pledge allegiance to the flag of the ...Oh, wait: I, Patrick Moore,
of ABQ, NM, pledge, promise, commit, and vow to try retentionless on a
derailleur all rounder bike (Fargo, namely) for at least 200 miles of
combined ABQ, NM pavement and sandy bosque riding, and to report my
findings, results, conclusions, verdicts, pronouncements, and judgments to
the list. Amen.

Patrick Moore, who seriously proposes to do this, notwithstanding his
otherwise intolerable flippancy, in ABQ, NM.

On Fri, Jun 12, 2015 at 3:47 PM, Steve Palincsar palin...@his.com wrote:


 Let's face it: those who like flat pedals - pedals without retention
 devices - aren't after performance gains that can be measured
 objectively.  They're after comfort and convenience.  Some riders can make
 them work quite effectively, and are happy to accept whatever objective
 performance deficits they may have.

 I have flat BMX pedals (albeit, without pins) on my shopper.  I would
 never ride long distances on such a pedal: my feet slip off, and they often
 sit crooked on the pedals and I end up stepping on the crank arm or the
 chain stay.  I'm very happy to have a pedal retention system take care of
 positioning my feet, while allowing me to lift my foot without worrying
 about it losing its place on the pedal or coming off entirely.  I doubt the
 lifting of my feet substantially adds to power, as die hard advocates
 proclaim, but that's not the only reason to do it.

 I'm surprised this discussion has had so much staying power.  It's a
 relatively trivial issue, as far as I'm concerned.


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Re: [RBW] Re: BQ to publish study of pedal retention usefulness in Summer issue

[Kellie]

Hahaha... made me 

On Saturday, May 16, 2015 at 8:02:47 AM UTC-7, Rod Holland wrote:

 Anne,

 Sounds like the guy forgot to unclip his mouth from his Y chromosome... 
 That causes any number of accidents...

 rod

 On Saturday, May 16, 2015 at 10:09:13 AM UTC-4, Anne Paulson wrote:

 Is this mansplaining, or does this happen to you, too: 

 I was out riding my Surly Krampus on some fire roads that are, to be 
 honest, too steep for me. So I was doing a lot of walking. But that's 
 OK, I don't mind walking. 

 At the top, I came upon three guys who had ridden up the other side, 
 the easy way. We got to chatting, and, as often happened, they asked 
 me about my bike. I have flats on the bike. And then one of the guys 
 took it upon himself to tell me I should start riding clipless. He 
 explained that clipless would make my pedalling stronger, yadda, 
 yadda. 

 I answered politely, but I was furious. It should have been obvious to 
 him that my bike was carefully chosen: it has 3 tires, a belt drive, 
 a dynamo and a Rohloff hub. This is not a bike that one can can buy 
 off the shop floor; it's a custom bike, and one that he should have 
 realized I chose after careful consideration. Why, then, did he assume 
 that a rider who had ridden for 40 years, and who had carefully chosen 
 all the parts of her bike, would be ignorant of clipless pedals, and 
 that somehow flats got on my bike by accident? 

 Don't be a jerk. Don't assume that riders who make different choices 
 than you do don't know what they're doing. And don't assume that women 
 automatically need the benefit of your superior knowledge. 

 On Sat, May 16, 2015 at 5:15 AM, Garth gart...@gmail.com wrote: 
  
   good read : 
  
 http://www.bikejames.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/Flat-Pedal-Revolution-Manifesto.pdf
  
  
  from here : 
  
 http://www.bikejames.com/strength/the-flat-pedal-revolution-manifesto-how-to-improve-your-riding-with-flat-pedals/
  
  
  
  You don't have to change your mind and thinking  nor can you truly 
 . 
  You can and do however .  . .  Understand :) 
  
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 It isn't a contest. Enjoy the ride. 



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Re: [RBW] Re: BQ to publish study of pedal retention usefulness in Summer issue

[Patrick Moore]

It's really a question of torque, not power. Like an old 20 hp tractor that
can climb a wall (if it is using clipless pedals).

On Thu, Jun 11, 2015 at 7:05 PM, Benz, Sunnyvale, CA benzouy...@gmail.com
wrote:

 I'm a little late to this discussion, but can you please reconcile your
 claim about the lack of ability to put out power with BMX sprinting? These
 guys generate in excess of 1000 watts and don't have clipless pedals. They
 seem to be able to put down plenty of watts with very modest body weight.


 On Wednesday, June 3, 2015 at 11:07:49 AM UTC-7, Jan Heine wrote:

 I am sorry that there was a misperception that we did a detailed study of
 pedal retention. We tested a few pedals, both with and without retention,
 and the results were interesting. Whether a more rigorous study is needed
 when the results are so clear is another matter. To cite an even more
 extreme case: Do we also need a rigorous study to prove that a bike with
 flat tires rolls slower?

 I think it's pretty clear that during normal riding, retention makes
 little difference. Grant P. is right when he says that you don't pull up
 much, if at all. However, during short efforts on rolling terrain, it's
 obvious that you can pull up, and I did realize how much I do pull up when
 that ability was taken away. On the same bike and the same course, I
 suddenly needed to shift on the smallest hills, whereas usually, I just
 roll over them. And getting out of the saddle had no benefit, since I
 couldn't lever the bike with my lower foot as a fixed point. Suddenly, my
 power output was limited by my body weight...

 In the article, I compared it to opening the lid of a jar. If you hold
 the jar with one hand and the lid with the other, you can apply way more
 force than if you have your friend hold the jar while you turn the lid.

 Considering this, I am not sure I want to put our limited resources into
 a more sophisticated study.

 Jan Heine
 Editor
 Bicycle Quarterly
 Seattle WA USA
 www.bikequarterly.com

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*
*The point which is the pivot of the norm is the motionless center of a
circumference on the rim of which all conditions, distinctions, and
individualities revolve. *Chuang Tzu

*Kinei hos eromenon. It moves as the being-loved. *Aristotle

*The Love that moves the Sun and all the other stars. *Dante

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Re: [RBW] Re: BQ to publish study of pedal retention usefulness in Summer issue

[Ron Mc]

Clayton, I don't think your head should have been bitten off.  It was a 
reasonable interrogatory.  

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Re: [RBW] Re: BQ to publish study of pedal retention usefulness in Summer issue

[Steve Palincsar]

On 06/11/2015 10:14 PM, 'clayton bailey' via RBW Owners Bunch wrote:
Does he not own Rene Herse? And sell his own randoneur frames? I 
thought he did. H.


You are wrong.  He owns the Rene Herse name, but licenses it to Mike 
Kone of Boulder Bicycles for the Herse bicycle line.





Clayton



On Thursday, June 11, 2015 6:55 PM, Steve Palincsar palin...@his.com 
wrote:



On 06/11/2015 11:38 AM, 'Clayton' via RBW Owners Bunch wrote (speaking 
of Jan Heine):
He seemed infer that judder in plastic bikes is incurable, but I 
think *he was just putting on a sales spin for his bikes.* 


What bikes would those be?  Jan doesn't sell bikes at all.



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Re: [RBW] Re: BQ to publish study of pedal retention usefulness in Summer issue

[Jan Heine]

It's totally normal to be skeptical when a magazine also has a sister 
company that sells bicycle components... However, the reason Compass exists 
is because we at Bicycle Quarterly wanted to put our research into practice 
and make the parts that we want to ride on our own bikes. We cannot tell 
others what they should manufacture (and believe me, we have tried!), so we 
had to do it ourselves. It's that simple. 

The conflict of interest is best dealt with by being honest. So when the 
handlebar bag of a test bike that was held on with a Grand Bois decaleur we 
sell flew off during a fast gravel descent, of course, we reported it. When 
we found that the Grand Bois Ourson tires didn't perform appreciably better 
than the Panaracer Col de la Vie that used the same mold, we said so. Sure, 
we lost some sales at Compass, but the credibility of Bicycle Quarterly is 
far more important. And the Ourson tires were discontinued based on our 
research, and we replaced them with our own Compass Loup Loup Pass tires, 
which perform much better. And Compass Bicycles sells the MKS platform 
pedals and half-clips that I found to offer less optimal performance on 
short hills... If I was trying to boost sales, I would have said that the 
half-clips offer the same performance as clipless or full toeclips, and 
have quoted the Youtube study...

To suspect that we talk about fork judder on carbon cyclocross forks only 
to boost sales of Rene Herse bikes is a bit far-fetched. For full 
disclosure, we do get a small licensing fee from Boulder Bicycles for every 
Rene Herse bike sold, but so few of these bikes are being made that it's 
totally insignificant, on par of what we make from selling Maxi-Car 
replacement axles. These are projects we do because we want to do them, not 
because they make money. We also do sell the wonderful Kaisei Toei 
Special fork blades, but again, I doubt many are sold to riders who'd 
otherwise buy a production carbon fork...

The carbon fork issue (brake judder with cantilever brakes and a 
high-mounted cable hanger) has been reported in many magazines, but I 
believe we are the first who figured out what really is happening. It is 
simply a mismatch between very stout fork legs and a flexible steerer. 
Instead of getting the brake dive in the fork legs as the weight 
transfers forward during braking, you get flex in the steerer, which 
affects the tension of the brake cable, setting up a rhythmic oscillation. 
It can happen with any fork material, but it's predominant with carbon 
forks. I am sorry if that wasn't explained clearly enough in the article.

Jan Heine
Editor
Bicycle Quarterly
www.bikequarterly.com

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Re: [RBW] Re: BQ to publish study of pedal retention usefulness in Summer issue

['clayton bailey' via RBW Owners Bunch]

Jan, I apologize. I did not mean to offend anyone, and was totally mistaken 
about your connection to Rene Herse. Your connection to them in my mind, 
somehow became your brand, that you sold. However I stand by my brake comments. 
I had intense brake judder on my Specialized Crux, and it was cured by toe-in  
(regardless of the cause). Other forks may not have the same results, and using 
different brake pads could change things too. I use long Mt. bike Kool Stop 
salmon pads with great results. Cantilever brakes are all basically the same. 
They all need toe in, regardless of the fork material. You do a great job on 
your magazine and products and I can't blame anyone for marketing their 
products the best way they see fit.Clayton Bailey 


 On Friday, June 12, 2015 7:31 AM, Jan Heine hein...@earthlink.net wrote:
   

 It's totally normal to be skeptical when a magazine also has a sister company 
that sells bicycle components... However, the reason Compass exists is because 
we at Bicycle Quarterly wanted to put our research into practice and make the 
parts that we want to ride on our own bikes. We cannot tell others what they 
should manufacture (and believe me, we have tried!), so we had to do it 
ourselves. It's that simple. 

The conflict of interest is best dealt with by being honest. So when the 
handlebar bag of a test bike that was held on with a Grand Bois decaleur we 
sell flew off during a fast gravel descent, of course, we reported it. When we 
found that the Grand Bois Ourson tires didn't perform appreciably better than 
the Panaracer Col de la Vie that used the same mold, we said so. Sure, we lost 
some sales at Compass, but the credibility of Bicycle Quarterly is far more 
important. And the Ourson tires were discontinued based on our research, and we 
replaced them with our own Compass Loup Loup Pass tires, which perform much 
better. And Compass Bicycles sells the MKS platform pedals and half-clips that 
I found to offer less optimal performance on short hills... If I was trying to 
boost sales, I would have said that the half-clips offer the same performance 
as clipless or full toeclips, and have quoted the Youtube study...

To suspect that we talk about fork judder on carbon cyclocross forks only to 
boost sales of Rene Herse bikes is a bit far-fetched. For full disclosure, we 
do get a small licensing fee from Boulder Bicycles for every Rene Herse bike 
sold, but so few of these bikes are being made that it's totally insignificant, 
on par of what we make from selling Maxi-Car replacement axles. These are 
projects we do because we want to do them, not because they make money. We also 
do sell the wonderful Kaisei Toei Special fork blades, but again, I doubt 
many are sold to riders who'd otherwise buy a production carbon fork...

The carbon fork issue (brake judder with cantilever brakes and a high-mounted 
cable hanger) has been reported in many magazines, but I believe we are the 
first who figured out what really is happening. It is simply a mismatch between 
very stout fork legs and a flexible steerer. Instead of getting the brake 
dive in the fork legs as the weight transfers forward during braking, you get 
flex in the steerer, which affects the tension of the brake cable, setting up a 
rhythmic oscillation. It can happen with any fork material, but it's 
predominant with carbon forks. I am sorry if that wasn't explained clearly 
enough in the article.

Jan Heine
Editor
Bicycle Quarterly
www.bikequarterly.com
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Re: [RBW] Re: BQ to publish study of pedal retention usefulness in Summer issue

[Mark Parker]

I thought the whole debate was that for unracers flat pedals are fine.  
From what I have read of his exploits, it doesn't surprise me that Jan 
gains some efficiency from being attached to the pedal.  I don't think I 
do.  I certainly fall into the unracer camp and will keep on doing what I 
have done since I was 5 - just ride.

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Re: [RBW] Re: BQ to publish study of pedal retention usefulness in Summer issue

[Matthew J]

 It's totally normal to be skeptical when a magazine also has a sister 
company that sells bicycle components... However, the reason Compass exists 
is because we at Bicycle Quarterly wanted to put our  research into 
practice and make the parts that we want to ride on our own bikes. We 
cannot tell others what they should manufacture (and believe me, we have 
tried!), so we had to do it ourselves. It's that  simple. 

Thank you Jan.  I have always found your candor about your products 
benefits and limitations refreshing. 

And this from someone who prefers half clips matched to White pedals - 
performance be darned!  

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Re: [RBW] Re: BQ to publish study of pedal retention usefulness in Summer issue

[Deacon Patrick]

Just imagine how I made the real Patrick feel when I joined! Grin.

With abandon,
Patrick (who sometimes likes to look like the real Patrick by adding a long 
description to my signature just to mess with him. Grin.)

On Friday, June 12, 2015 at 10:59:26 AM UTC-6, Clayton.sf wrote:

 Now we have two claytons! 

 Will have to change my handle ;-) 

 Clayton Scott 
 SF, CA

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Re: [RBW] Re: BQ to publish study of pedal retention usefulness in Summer issue

[Clayton.sf]

Now we have two claytons! 

Will have to change my handle ;-)

Clayton Scott
SF, CA

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Re: [RBW] Re: BQ to publish study of pedal retention usefulness in Summer issue

[Matthew J]

 Does he not own Rene Herse? And sell his own randoneur frames? I thought 
he did. H.

Well, you are going to have to H a little bit longer and harder. 

While Jan owns the name and sells components with it, Rene Herse branded 
randonneur frames are made and sold by Mike Kone and Mark Nobilette (who 
used to and may still make some of the Riv forks by the way).  

Jan does not charge Mike to use the name for the bicycles.  

Definitely no bikes for sale on the Compass site.

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Re: [RBW] Re: BQ to publish study of pedal retention usefulness in Summer issue

[Matthew J]

But its cool to bite Jan's head off for something he does not do.

On Friday, June 12, 2015 at 8:49:06 AM UTC-5, Ron Mc wrote:

 Clayton, I don't think your head should have been bitten off.  It was a 
 reasonable interrogatory.  


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Re: [RBW] Re: BQ to publish study of pedal retention usefulness in Summer issue

[Jan Heine]

Clayton,

No apologies necessary. You are right that a lot of brake judder can be 
cured with toe-in adjustment. However, on these carbon forks, even the most 
extreme toe-in doesn't solve the problem - we tried everything (including 
toe-out, different pads, etc.). On our first long ride on that particular 
bike, we actually stopped multiple times adjusting the brakes (with several 
professional bike mechanics on the team, everybody felt that _they_ could 
cure the problem, even if the others couldn't). I am glad that your bike 
doesn't display the brake judder any longer, because it's annoying, and not 
something I'd gladly live with on a daily basis.

Jan Heine
Editor
Bicycle Quarterly

On Friday, June 12, 2015 at 7:50:46 AM UTC-7, Clayton wrote:

 Jan, I apologize. 
 I did not mean to offend anyone, and was totally mistaken about your 
 connection to Rene Herse. Your connection to them in my mind, somehow 
 became your brand, that you sold. However I stand by my brake comments. I 
 had intense brake judder on my Specialized Crux, and it was cured by toe-in 
  (regardless of the cause). Other forks may not have the same results, and 
 using different brake pads could change things too.
  

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Re: [RBW] Re: BQ to publish study of pedal retention usefulness in Summer issue

[Richard]

You said it Patrick, the ability to move ones feet while riding is a huge 
benefit. Even slight movements make a big difference. 

I don't get BQ's opening the lid analogy, nor do I understand this statement 
When my feet are firmly attached to the pedals, I may not actually pull 
up, but I am using the pedal that is moving upward as a fixed point to push 
against with my downstroke leg. 

What? How can the upward moving pedal be a fixed point to push against?

I'm not against clipless, I used them for many years, but the arguments in 
favor of, aren't convincing to me anymore. I know I'm in the minority here, but 
switching to platform pedals with pins has changed my mind about the need for 
foot retention for any type of riding. Just my experience, take it with a grain 
of salt.

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Re: [RBW] Re: BQ to publish study of pedal retention usefulness in Summer issue

[Philip Williamson]

Boat shoes would probably be fine. I rode in Ralph Lauren fake All-Stars 
high-top sneakers today, with thin wool socks. VP-001s with pins. 
What BMX pedals are you getting? I have a pair of silver VP-001s coming for 
the Ross C-Line makeover, but I'd like to upgrade another bike as well from 
cage style mtb pedals.  

Philip
www.biketinker.com

On Thursday, June 11, 2015 at 1:31:47 PM UTC-7, Patrick Moore wrote:

 Richard: thanks. You pushed me over the edge. I plan to try flatties on 
 the Fargo, but next month or so, since I've just dropped huge  on my 
 car, roof, hvac, cleaning, etc.

 Vaughn at Stevie's recommended some polycarbonate pedals list $22 that he 
 says are fine and used by the BMX periti. So $25 w/tax is no problem. 
 *And* they come in the designer color of your choice.

 The additional expense, ironically in view of the no shoes ruze, is that 
 I need special shoes, and for this I'd like some advice.

 I need closed shoes, not the boat shoes or sandals I prefer in summer; and 
 of my closed shoes with rubber soles, I have a beat up pair of safari boots 
 -- too hot; and a pair of nice oxfords with lugged treads -- too nice.

 So, recommend unto me the cheapest possible shoe -- Target? Payless? -- 
 that will work sufficiently well with these pedals to give me, after a 
 month or so, a sufficiently true idea of how flatties work.

 If someone has some to sell, I wear 44s.

 For singletrack or other dicey riding situations, I can easily imagine how 
 no retention would be liberating, esp as I have never been particularly 
 coordinated. (For a while in the early '90s I rode singletrack with slotted 
 cleats, Specialized shoes with cross-type cleats; I no longer have those 
 skills.)

 On Thu, Jun 11, 2015 at 4:28 AM, Richard rlh...@gmail.com javascript: 
 wrote:

 You said it Patrick, the ability to move ones feet while riding is a huge 
 benefit. Even slight movements make a big difference.

 I don't get BQ's opening the lid analogy, nor do I understand this 
 statement When my feet are firmly attached to the pedals, I may not 
 actually pull up, but I am using the pedal that is moving upward as a fixed 
 point to push against with my downstroke leg.

 What? How can the upward moving pedal be a fixed point to push against?

 I'm not against clipless, I used them for many years, but the arguments 
 in favor of, aren't convincing to me anymore. I know I'm in the minority 
 here, but switching to platform pedals with pins has changed my mind about 
 the need for foot retention for any type of riding. Just my experience, 
 take it with a grain of salt.

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 Alburquerque, Nouvelle Mexique,  Vereinigte Staaten

 *
 *The point which is the pivot of the norm is the motionless center of a 
 circumference on the rim of which all conditions, distinctions, and 
 individualities revolve. *Chuang Tzu

 *Kinei hos eromenon. It moves as the being-loved. *Aristotle

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Re: [RBW] Re: BQ to publish study of pedal retention usefulness in Summer issue

[John]

Patrick,   5-10 sneakers have been my favorites for years. I save a bunch 
of dough buying the close out models from the 5-10 web site at 
http://shopfiveten.com/C-44/Bike

I especially like the ones with the sticky rubber soles because they grip 
even better when the pedals  soles get wet.

John

 

On Thursday, June 11, 2015 at 1:31:47 PM UTC-7, Patrick Moore wrote:

 Richard: thanks. You pushed me over the edge. I plan to try flatties on 
 the Fargo, but next month or so, since I've just dropped huge  on my 
 car, roof, hvac, cleaning, etc.

 Vaughn at Stevie's recommended some polycarbonate pedals list $22 that he 
 says are fine and used by the BMX periti. So $25 w/tax is no problem. 
 *And* they come in the designer color of your choice.

 The additional expense, ironically in view of the no shoes ruze, is that 
 I need special shoes, and for this I'd like some advice.

 I need closed shoes, not the boat shoes or sandals I prefer in summer; and 
 of my closed shoes with rubber soles, I have a beat up pair of safari boots 
 -- too hot; and a pair of nice oxfords with lugged treads -- too nice.

 So, recommend unto me the cheapest possible shoe -- Target? Payless? -- 
 that will work sufficiently well with these pedals to give me, after a 
 month or so, a sufficiently true idea of how flatties work.

 If someone has some to sell, I wear 44s.

 For singletrack or other dicey riding situations, I can easily imagine how 
 no retention would be liberating, esp as I have never been particularly 
 coordinated. (For a while in the early '90s I rode singletrack with slotted 
 cleats, Specialized shoes with cross-type cleats; I no longer have those 
 skills.)

 On Thu, Jun 11, 2015 at 4:28 AM, Richard rlh...@gmail.com javascript: 
 wrote:

 You said it Patrick, the ability to move ones feet while riding is a huge 
 benefit. Even slight movements make a big difference.

 I don't get BQ's opening the lid analogy, nor do I understand this 
 statement When my feet are firmly attached to the pedals, I may not 
 actually pull up, but I am using the pedal that is moving upward as a fixed 
 point to push against with my downstroke leg.

 What? How can the upward moving pedal be a fixed point to push against?

 I'm not against clipless, I used them for many years, but the arguments 
 in favor of, aren't convincing to me anymore. I know I'm in the minority 
 here, but switching to platform pedals with pins has changed my mind about 
 the need for foot retention for any type of riding. Just my experience, 
 take it with a grain of salt.

 --
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 javascript:.
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 By-the-hour resume and LinkedIn coaching.
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 Patrick Moore
 Alburquerque, Nouvelle Mexique,  Vereinigte Staaten

 *
 *The point which is the pivot of the norm is the motionless center of a 
 circumference on the rim of which all conditions, distinctions, and 
 individualities revolve. *Chuang Tzu

 *Kinei hos eromenon. It moves as the being-loved. *Aristotle

 *The Love that moves the Sun and all the other stars. *Dante  
  

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Re: [RBW] Re: BQ to publish study of pedal retention usefulness in Summer issue

[Patrick Moore]

Richard: thanks. You pushed me over the edge. I plan to try flatties on the
Fargo, but next month or so, since I've just dropped huge  on my car,
roof, hvac, cleaning, etc.

Vaughn at Stevie's recommended some polycarbonate pedals list $22 that he
says are fine and used by the BMX periti. So $25 w/tax is no problem.
*And* they
come in the designer color of your choice.

The additional expense, ironically in view of the no shoes ruze, is that
I need special shoes, and for this I'd like some advice.

I need closed shoes, not the boat shoes or sandals I prefer in summer; and
of my closed shoes with rubber soles, I have a beat up pair of safari boots
-- too hot; and a pair of nice oxfords with lugged treads -- too nice.

So, recommend unto me the cheapest possible shoe -- Target? Payless? --
that will work sufficiently well with these pedals to give me, after a
month or so, a sufficiently true idea of how flatties work.

If someone has some to sell, I wear 44s.

For singletrack or other dicey riding situations, I can easily imagine how
no retention would be liberating, esp as I have never been particularly
coordinated. (For a while in the early '90s I rode singletrack with slotted
cleats, Specialized shoes with cross-type cleats; I no longer have those
skills.)

On Thu, Jun 11, 2015 at 4:28 AM, Richard rlh3...@gmail.com wrote:

 You said it Patrick, the ability to move ones feet while riding is a huge
 benefit. Even slight movements make a big difference.

 I don't get BQ's opening the lid analogy, nor do I understand this
 statement When my feet are firmly attached to the pedals, I may not
 actually pull up, but I am using the pedal that is moving upward as a fixed
 point to push against with my downstroke leg.

 What? How can the upward moving pedal be a fixed point to push against?

 I'm not against clipless, I used them for many years, but the arguments in
 favor of, aren't convincing to me anymore. I know I'm in the minority here,
 but switching to platform pedals with pins has changed my mind about the
 need for foot retention for any type of riding. Just my experience, take it
 with a grain of salt.

 --
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 RBW Owners Bunch group.
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Alburquerque, Nouvelle Mexique,  Vereinigte Staaten

*
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*The Love that moves the Sun and all the other stars. *Dante

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Re: [RBW] Re: BQ to publish study of pedal retention usefulness in Summer issue

[Richard]

Patrick, I think you'll love flatties. Plastic ones will do, just make sure 
they have pins on the flats. Your feet will never slip, even when wet.

You really don't need special shoes for platforms. For hot summer days I ride 
in sandals, and sneakers in the cooler months. Try to find ones with a stiff 
sole. I can't tell you how liberating it was to dump my clipless shoes and 
pedals.
Again, just my experience. 

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Re: [RBW] Re: BQ to publish study of pedal retention usefulness in Summer issue

[Ron Mc]

there is no question with platform pedals you give up pull with a high-rev 
spin up hills.  But for me, the advantages of foot placement flexibility 
along with instant ingress and egress more than make up for it.  
If you're grunting on a 70-inch gear, you should stand up anyway and lose 
the pull regardless.  

On Tuesday, June 9, 2015 at 2:56:20 PM UTC-5, Patrick Moore wrote:

 I shall have to try it. But what about *really* steep hills? I find that 
 I not only pull down on the bar, but pull up on the pedal. Would losing the 
 last be a handicap?

 I mean such occasions as grunting a 40 lb load up a very steep 1/4 to 1/2 
 mile hill up the side of a mesa in a 70 gear. Again, street shoes with 
 straps didn't cut it. Pulling up is required (for me) for the steepest 
 parts -- I think; that's what I need to test again.

 Tho' I'm getting to old not to get off an walk in such instances ...



 On Tue, Jun 9, 2015 at 1:52 PM, Deacon Patrick lamon...@mac.com 
 javascript: wrote:

 Retention free works high or low cadence for me. When I read Jan's jar 
 lid example, I thought Uh, pedal/handlebar does the same thing so I 
 personally suspect less difference in efficiency than retention vs. body 
 weight only. I'm not limited to my body weight on the downstroke when 
 pulling up on my handlebars.

 With abandon,
 Patrick

 On Tuesday, June 9, 2015 at 12:56:08 PM UTC-6, Patrick Moore wrote:

 I wonder if no-retention works best if you pedal small gears at a 
 highish cadence, rather than if you mash. Can anyone comment on this? 

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 *The Love that moves the Sun and all the other stars. *Dante  
  

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Re: [RBW] Re: BQ to publish study of pedal retention usefulness in Summer issue

[bertin753]

I pull up especially when I'm grunting up a hill at very low cadence, which of 
course means standing and hauling on the bar. I'll see how much torque I lose 
with clipless-less-ness.

Need closed shoes because of dirt and pebbles. Will look at 5-10 and also 
atGoodwill.



Sent from my iPhone

 On Jun 11, 2015, at 4:15 PM, Ron Mc bulldog...@gmail.com wrote:
 
 there is no question with platform pedals you give up pull with a high-rev 
 spin up hills.  But for me, the advantages of foot placement flexibility 
 along with instant ingress and egress more than make up for it.  
 If you're grunting on a 70-inch gear, you should stand up anyway and lose the 
 pull regardless.  
 
 On Tuesday, June 9, 2015 at 2:56:20 PM UTC-5, Patrick Moore wrote:
 I shall have to try it. But what about really steep hills? I find that I not 
 only pull down on the bar, but pull up on the pedal. Would losing the last 
 be a handicap?
 
 I mean such occasions as grunting a 40 lb load up a very steep 1/4 to 1/2 
 mile hill up the side of a mesa in a 70 gear. Again, street shoes with 
 straps didn't cut it. Pulling up is required (for me) for the steepest parts 
 -- I think; that's what I need to test again.
 
 Tho' I'm getting to old not to get off an walk in such instances ...
 
 
 
 On Tue, Jun 9, 2015 at 1:52 PM, Deacon Patrick lamon...@mac.com wrote:
 Retention free works high or low cadence for me. When I read Jan's jar 
 lid example, I thought Uh, pedal/handlebar does the same thing so I 
 personally suspect less difference in efficiency than retention vs. body 
 weight only. I'm not limited to my body weight on the downstroke when 
 pulling up on my handlebars.
 
 With abandon,
 Patrick
 
 On Tuesday, June 9, 2015 at 12:56:08 PM UTC-6, Patrick Moore wrote:
 I wonder if no-retention works best if you pedal small gears at a highish 
 cadence, rather than if you mash. Can anyone comment on this?
 
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 *
 The point which is the pivot of the norm is the motionless center of a 
 circumference on the rim of which all conditions, distinctions, and 
 individualities revolve. Chuang Tzu
 Kinei hos eromenon. It moves as the being-loved. Aristotle
 
 The Love that moves the Sun and all the other stars. Dante  
 
 
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[RBW] Re: BQ to publish study of pedal retention usefulness in Summer issue

[Benz, Sunnyvale, CA]

I'm a little late to this discussion, but can you please reconcile your 
claim about the lack of ability to put out power with BMX sprinting? These 
guys generate in excess of 1000 watts and don't have clipless pedals. They 
seem to be able to put down plenty of watts with very modest body weight.


On Wednesday, June 3, 2015 at 11:07:49 AM UTC-7, Jan Heine wrote:

 I am sorry that there was a misperception that we did a detailed study of 
 pedal retention. We tested a few pedals, both with and without retention, 
 and the results were interesting. Whether a more rigorous study is needed 
 when the results are so clear is another matter. To cite an even more 
 extreme case: Do we also need a rigorous study to prove that a bike with 
 flat tires rolls slower?

 I think it's pretty clear that during normal riding, retention makes 
 little difference. Grant P. is right when he says that you don't pull up 
 much, if at all. However, during short efforts on rolling terrain, it's 
 obvious that you can pull up, and I did realize how much I do pull up when 
 that ability was taken away. On the same bike and the same course, I 
 suddenly needed to shift on the smallest hills, whereas usually, I just 
 roll over them. And getting out of the saddle had no benefit, since I 
 couldn't lever the bike with my lower foot as a fixed point. Suddenly, my 
 power output was limited by my body weight...

 In the article, I compared it to opening the lid of a jar. If you hold the 
 jar with one hand and the lid with the other, you can apply way more force 
 than if you have your friend hold the jar while you turn the lid.

 Considering this, I am not sure I want to put our limited resources into a 
 more sophisticated study.

 Jan Heine
 Editor
 Bicycle Quarterly
 Seattle WA USA
 www.bikequarterly.com

  

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Re: [RBW] Re: BQ to publish study of pedal retention usefulness in Summer issue

['clayton bailey' via RBW Owners Bunch]

Does he not own Rene Herse? And sell his own randoneur frames? I thought he 
did. H.
Clayton 


 On Thursday, June 11, 2015 6:55 PM, Steve Palincsar palin...@his.com 
wrote:
   

  On 06/11/2015 11:38 AM, 'Clayton' via RBW Owners Bunch wrote (speaking of Jan 
Heine):
  
 He seemed infer that judder in plastic bikes is incurable, but I think he was 
just putting on a sales spin for his bikes. 
 
 What bikes would those be?  Jan doesn't sell bikes at all.  
 
 
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Re: [RBW] Re: BQ to publish study of pedal retention usefulness in Summer issue

[Steve Palincsar]

On 06/11/2015 11:38 AM, 'Clayton' via RBW Owners Bunch wrote (speaking 
of Jan Heine):
He seemed infer that judder in plastic bikes is incurable, but I think 
*he was just putting on a sales spin for his bikes.* 


What bikes would those be?  Jan doesn't sell bikes at all.


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Re: [RBW] Re: BQ to publish study of pedal retention usefulness in Summer issue

['clayton bailey' via RBW Owners Bunch]

Patrick, one of my favorite shoes I used back in my toe clip days, are skate 
shoes. They have grippy soles, padded toes and tongues and you can find them 
cheap at Payless or Target. However, currently my faves are 510s paired with 
big mountain bike pinned flats. They stick so well, that with a little 
technique you can lift the back of the bike. I no longer fear catching air and 
having my feet fly off. Not being clipped in has let me ride in situations I 
would have gotten off and walked in the past. It took awhile to adjust, but 
man, it was worth it.
Claytonious 


 On Thursday, June 11, 2015 1:31 PM, Patrick Moore bertin...@gmail.com 
wrote:
   

 Richard: thanks. You pushed me over the edge. I plan to try flatties on the 
Fargo, but next month or so, since I've just dropped huge  on my car, roof, 
hvac, cleaning, etc.
Vaughn at Stevie's recommended some polycarbonate pedals list $22 that he says 
are fine and used by the BMX periti. So $25 w/tax is no problem. And they come 
in the designer color of your choice.
The additional expense, ironically in view of the no shoes ruze, is that I 
need special shoes, and for this I'd like some advice.
I need closed shoes, not the boat shoes or sandals I prefer in summer; and of 
my closed shoes with rubber soles, I have a beat up pair of safari boots -- too 
hot; and a pair of nice oxfords with lugged treads -- too nice.
So, recommend unto me the cheapest possible shoe -- Target? Payless? -- that 
will work sufficiently well with these pedals to give me, after a month or so, 
a sufficiently true idea of how flatties work.
If someone has some to sell, I wear 44s.
For singletrack or other dicey riding situations, I can easily imagine how no 
retention would be liberating, esp as I have never been particularly 
coordinated. (For a while in the early '90s I rode singletrack with slotted 
cleats, Specialized shoes with cross-type cleats; I no longer have those 
skills.)
On Thu, Jun 11, 2015 at 4:28 AM, Richard rlh3...@gmail.com wrote:

You said it Patrick, the ability to move ones feet while riding is a huge 
benefit. Even slight movements make a big difference.

I don't get BQ's opening the lid analogy, nor do I understand this statement 
When my feet are firmly attached to the pedals, I may not actually pull 
up, but I am using the pedal that is moving upward as a fixed point to push 
against with my downstroke leg.

What? How can the upward moving pedal be a fixed point to push against?

I'm not against clipless, I used them for many years, but the arguments in 
favor of, aren't convincing to me anymore. I know I'm in the minority here, but 
switching to platform pedals with pins has changed my mind about the need for 
foot retention for any type of riding. Just my experience, take it with a grain 
of salt.

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*The point which is the pivot of the norm 
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[RBW] Re: BQ to publish study of pedal retention usefulness in Summer issue

['Clayton' via RBW Owners Bunch]

 After riding clipless and toe clips since 1987, I wanted my spin to be 
 more efficient, so I spent 3-1/2 years perfecting my spin, by pedaling a 
 stationary bike, one legged on slippery flat pedals. The only time I have 
 found clipless to be an advantage is when you need the extra horse power by 
 pulling up, which I find I rarely need anymore. I went to flats due to bad 
 knees, and am glad I did. For road racing and cross country mountain bike 
 racing, clipless is still the way to go. I run clipless on my plastic road 
 bike, but flats on my mountain bike and Atlantis. There are so many 
 advantages to flat pedals. It took awhile for me to unknot my clipless 
 pedal is superior mindset and open it to flats.


Trust me, I am and edumacated bike mag rag reader and believe everything 
they say.  I have found a few things Jan has wrote that make me question 
his expertise, but overall he seems on point.  He talked about brake 
judder and how plastic bikes accentuate it. Basic brake work: You toe in 
your brake pads to get rid of judder, no matter what the frame material is. 
He seemed infer that judder in plastic bikes is incurable, but I think he 
was just putting on a sales spin for his bikes. I enjoy his magazine, but 
in the end, I take all bike advice with a grain of pepper. After all, the 
joy we find in riding is the choices WE decide, not what the magazines, 
experts or pros say, not the egomaniac cycle expert with too much 
testosterone, or the bike marketing industry that makes absurd claims. For 
me, riding a bike is liberating. I just want to ride like a kid again, just 
riding my bike and enjoying every pedal stroke. Too much bike expert 
noise, takes the fun out of it. Ego's are a funny thing and I find mine 
very irritating at times. . . . Like right now... lol. 

Claytonious Q

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[RBW] Re: BQ to publish study of pedal retention usefulness in Summer issue

[John]

I was disappointed in the piece. It just sounded like Jan's personal 
preference and that he needed more practice pedaling flat pedals to have an 
opinion worth sharing.

I love 5-10 Sneakers  the Riv Grip King pedals better than riding on VP 
Thin Gripsters or Vice pedals, but is that really meaningful to anyone else?

Not that I can see.

I do like reading BQ though, and I'm going to renew my subscription.

John   

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Re: [RBW] Re: BQ to publish study of pedal retention usefulness in Summer issue

[Patrick Moore]

I wonder if no-retention works best if you pedal small gears at a highish
cadence, rather than if you mash. Can anyone comment on this?

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Re: [RBW] Re: BQ to publish study of pedal retention usefulness in Summer issue

[Deacon Patrick]

I have no idea, Patrick. I ride the steep in SS but not with the weight 
you're talking about. And don't know how much I'd notice the ability to 
lift up on the rear pedal.

With abandon,
Patrick

On Tuesday, June 9, 2015 at 1:56:20 PM UTC-6, Patrick Moore wrote:

 I shall have to try it. But what about *really* steep hills? I find that 
 I not only pull down on the bar, but pull up on the pedal. Would losing the 
 last be a handicap?

 I mean such occasions as grunting a 40 lb load up a very steep 1/4 to 1/2 
 mile hill up the side of a mesa in a 70 gear. Again, street shoes with 
 straps didn't cut it. Pulling up is required (for me) for the steepest 
 parts -- I think; that's what I need to test again.

 Tho' I'm getting to old not to get off an walk in such instances ...



 On Tue, Jun 9, 2015 at 1:52 PM, Deacon Patrick lamon...@mac.com 
 javascript: wrote:

 Retention free works high or low cadence for me. When I read Jan's jar 
 lid example, I thought Uh, pedal/handlebar does the same thing so I 
 personally suspect less difference in efficiency than retention vs. body 
 weight only. I'm not limited to my body weight on the downstroke when 
 pulling up on my handlebars.

 With abandon,
 Patrick

 On Tuesday, June 9, 2015 at 12:56:08 PM UTC-6, Patrick Moore wrote:

 I wonder if no-retention works best if you pedal small gears at a 
 highish cadence, rather than if you mash. Can anyone comment on this? 

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 *
 *The point which is the pivot of the norm is the motionless center of a 
 circumference on the rim of which all conditions, distinctions, and 
 individualities revolve. *Chuang Tzu

 *Kinei hos eromenon. It moves as the being-loved. *Aristotle

 *The Love that moves the Sun and all the other stars. *Dante  
  

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Re: [RBW] Re: BQ to publish study of pedal retention usefulness in Summer issue

[Deacon Patrick]

Retention free works high or low cadence for me. When I read Jan's jar 
lid example, I thought Uh, pedal/handlebar does the same thing so I 
personally suspect less difference in efficiency than retention vs. body 
weight only. I'm not limited to my body weight on the downstroke when 
pulling up on my handlebars.

With abandon,
Patrick

On Tuesday, June 9, 2015 at 12:56:08 PM UTC-6, Patrick Moore wrote:

 I wonder if no-retention works best if you pedal small gears at a highish 
 cadence, rather than if you mash. Can anyone comment on this? 


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Re: [RBW] Re: BQ to publish study of pedal retention usefulness in Summer issue

[Garth]

It makes zero difference to me :)   I ride on the flats, sometime spinning 
sometimes mashing. Up the ubiquitous 20 something percent climbs , both 
seated and standing , makes no difference to me .  I wonder how I put up 
with riding rock hard boards called cycling shoes for so long .  My feet 
have never slipped of my pedals Wellgo MG-1's and now I wear Croc slide 
sandals .  

As Clayton mention in his post, it takes undeterminable time for one to 
adjust to riding in flat pedals, if ever.  To just hop on a bike with flat 
pedals(or vice versa) and called it a test really defeats the spirit of 
the intention.  Do I want the truth or not ? 

This is an issue with no one but within oneself  . What's good for me 
?  To extend that choice to others as if they ought to be doing it too , 
yes we've all done it in our enthusiasm for what we like . but truly to 
each distinctively their own .  These distinctions are ever cultivated and 
celebrated :)   


BTW, there is test on youtube by some well known British guys who had a 
racer in a lab on rollers and tested him with flat pedals for any 
physiological differences . They were essentially the same, with flat 
pedals being slightly more efficient physically.  

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CNedIJBZpgM
  

 
On Tuesday, June 9, 2015 at 2:56:08 PM UTC-4, Patrick Moore wrote:

 I wonder if no-retention works best if you pedal small gears at a highish 
 cadence, rather than if you mash. Can anyone comment on this? 


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Re: [RBW] Re: BQ to publish study of pedal retention usefulness in Summer issue

[Garth]

Of course after the test it was agreed that for racing, clipless is more 
practical and safe , with the violent efforts and all.  So again, whatever 
suits your style :) 

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Re: [RBW] Re: BQ to publish study of pedal retention usefulness in Summer issue

[Patrick Moore]

I shall have to try it. But what about *really* steep hills? I find that I
not only pull down on the bar, but pull up on the pedal. Would losing the
last be a handicap?

I mean such occasions as grunting a 40 lb load up a very steep 1/4 to 1/2
mile hill up the side of a mesa in a 70 gear. Again, street shoes with
straps didn't cut it. Pulling up is required (for me) for the steepest
parts -- I think; that's what I need to test again.

Tho' I'm getting to old not to get off an walk in such instances ...



On Tue, Jun 9, 2015 at 1:52 PM, Deacon Patrick lamontg...@mac.com wrote:

 Retention free works high or low cadence for me. When I read Jan's jar
 lid example, I thought Uh, pedal/handlebar does the same thing so I
 personally suspect less difference in efficiency than retention vs. body
 weight only. I'm not limited to my body weight on the downstroke when
 pulling up on my handlebars.

 With abandon,
 Patrick

 On Tuesday, June 9, 2015 at 12:56:08 PM UTC-6, Patrick Moore wrote:

 I wonder if no-retention works best if you pedal small gears at a highish
 cadence, rather than if you mash. Can anyone comment on this?

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Re: [RBW] Re: BQ to publish study of pedal retention usefulness in Summer issue

[Patrick Moore]

Deacon: thanks.

To turn the question around (for everyone): what are the *advantages* of
riding no retention? I discount the reason given as no need for special
shoes since I certainly wouldn't be cycling fixed or off road no-retention
in Bass Weejuns on Tony Lamas or, for that matter, in Sperry Topsiders.

So, allowing that you are going to need special shoes of one sort or
another, what are the benefits? Perhaps there will be confirmation of the
study finding that no retention takes less energy, but leave that out for
the time being.

Patrick Moore, who just now cranked a 75 gear up a very steep 4/10 mile
long hill up the mesa to Rio Rancho (behind Don Chalmers Ford), but with no
load, and very definitely pulled up hard on the bar and pulled up hard on
the pedals, though the tailwind provided at least psychological assistance.

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Re: [RBW] Re: BQ to publish study of pedal retention usefulness in Summer issue

[Patrick Moore]

And I am not secretly and snidely asserting that retention is better*. If
no retention is proved to be more efficient, I'll drop my Keos and SPDs in
a NY minute.

But I *am* skeptical, since cycling and its related technology is after all
very mature, and foot retention dates back well over 100 years.

* I mean better in every way. Of course no retention has obvious benefits
in freedom of movement on the pedal.

My own take at the moment is that, like planing, high bars, wide bars, low
bars, narrow bars, wide saddles, narrow saddles, front loading, rear
loading, what have you, it is largely a matter of taste and riding style
and type.

On Tue, Jun 9, 2015 at 6:06 PM, Patrick Moore bertin...@gmail.com wrote:

 Deacon: thanks.

 To turn the question around (for everyone): what are the *advantages* of
 riding no retention? I discount the reason given as no need for special
 shoes since I certainly wouldn't be cycling fixed or off road no-retention
 in Bass Weejuns on Tony Lamas or, for that matter, in Sperry Topsiders.

 So, allowing that you are going to need special shoes of one sort or
 another, what are the benefits? Perhaps there will be confirmation of the
 study finding that no retention takes less energy, but leave that out for
 the time being.

 Patrick Moore, who just now cranked a 75 gear up a very steep 4/10 mile
 long hill up the mesa to Rio Rancho (behind Don Chalmers Ford), but with no
 load, and very definitely pulled up hard on the bar and pulled up hard on
 the pedals, though the tailwind provided at least psychological assistance.




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*Kinei hos eromenon. It moves as the being-loved. *Aristotle

*The Love that moves the Sun and all the other stars. *Dante

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Re: [RBW] Re: BQ to publish study of pedal retention usefulness in Summer issue

[Garth]

Just Ride  .  . .  . .  and keep smiling Patrick Moore :-)  

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Re: [RBW] Re: BQ to publish study of pedal retention usefulness in Summer issue

[Clayton.sf]

Riding flats well after years of clip less is not something that happens over 
night. Different technique is needed and that comes with regular use. Quickly 
jumping on flats for a ride and drawing conclusions is likely too hasty an 
approach.

Clayton Scott
SF, CA

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Re: [RBW] Re: BQ to publish study of pedal retention usefulness in Summer issue

[Steve Palincsar]

On 06/08/2015 12:02 PM, Garth wrote:


What is everyone expecting ?   Stating the obvious , whatever one 
chooses to use for pedals , let alone anything , they'll seek and find 
justification from wherever they can get it to support their choice, 
or they make up their own evidence  . *No scientific study is or can 
be Absolutely objective, ever ! *



Oh, really?  I remember seeing absolutely objective scientific studies 
often on Star Trek.  Dr. McCoy would examine red shirted crew member and 
pronounce: This man is dead, Jim!   Can't get more absolutely 
objective than that.



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Re: [RBW] Re: BQ to publish study of pedal retention usefulness in Summer issue

[Garth]

Just Ride  . . . and Smile :)  


On Monday, June 8, 2015 at 12:23:37 PM UTC-4, Patrick Moore wrote:

 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-refuting_idea


 On Mon, Jun 8, 2015 at 10:02 AM, Garth gart...@gmail.com javascript: 
 wrote:


 What is everyone expecting ?   Stating the obvious , whatever one chooses 
 to use for pedals , let alone anything , they'll seek and find 
 justification from wherever they can get it to support their choice, or 
 they make up their own evidence  . *No scientific study is or can be 
 Absolutely objective, ever !   *

 As in A Few Good Men  .. 
 Q= I want the Truth ! (wanting the Absolute Truth)
 A= You can't handle the Truth  (Absolute)

 Man's science can't handle the Truth Absolute. 


 So . . . .  it always kinda comes down to . . . . Just Ride  . . . .and 
 Smile :) 

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 *The point which is the pivot of the norm is the motionless center of a 
 circumference on the rim of which all conditions, distinctions, and 
 individualities revolve. *Chuang Tzu

 *Kinei hos eromenon. It moves as the being-loved. *Aristotle

 *The Love that moves the Sun and all the other stars. *Dante  
  

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[RBW] Re: BQ to publish study of pedal retention usefulness in Summer issue

[Jan Heine]

There seems to be a misunderstanding. We never advertised it as a study. 
I wrote in a blog comment that we tested some pedals with and without 
retention. I am sorry this was misunderstood as purporting to have done a 
scientific study, and then reported here as such. The article and test 
never were intended as a scientific study. Like any test, they simply 
report on the (somewhat subjective) experience of riding with the product. 
I apologize for any disappointment that arose from this misunderstanding.

Jan Heine
Editor
Bicycle Quarterly
Seattle WA USA
www.bikequarterly.com

Follow our blog at http://janheine.wordpress.com/ 
http://janheine.wordpress.com/

On Monday, June 8, 2015 at 6:39:16 AM UTC-7, Mojo wrote:

 I too was disappointed with the study. By study I thought Jan meant a 
 scientific study where a hypotheses was rigorously tested with a repeatable 
 methodology that would refine the hypothesis. Instead it was subjective 
 with non-repeatable observations of how Jan reacted to a system that was 
 different to his own pedal system and possibly his own bias. At the end of 
 the short article, we are left with an untested hypothesis that Uphills, 
 especially short rises, are easier when your feet are firmly attached to 
 the pedals. 

 I personally don't disagree with this hypothesis, just like in the past I 
 didn't disagree with the hypothesis that tire pressure was directly 
 correlated to speed.

 I think if Jan had advertised that he had some observations of pedal 
 performance or some such wording, then I would have not had an expectation 
 of a (scientific) study.

 Joe huge fan of BQ and pay for 3 subscriptions Ramey

 On Wednesday, June 3, 2015 at 12:07:49 PM UTC-6, Jan Heine wrote:

 I am sorry that there was a misperception that we did a detailed study of 
 pedal retention. We tested a few pedals, both with and without retention, 
 and the results were interesting. Whether a more rigorous study is needed 
 when the results are so clear is another matter. To cite an even more 
 extreme case: Do we also need a rigorous study to prove that a bike with 
 flat tires rolls slower?

 I think it's pretty clear that during normal riding, retention makes 
 little difference. Grant P. is right when he says that you don't pull up 
 much, if at all. However, during short efforts on rolling terrain, it's 
 obvious that you can pull up, and I did realize how much I do pull up when 
 that ability was taken away. On the same bike and the same course, I 
 suddenly needed to shift on the smallest hills, whereas usually, I just 
 roll over them. And getting out of the saddle had no benefit, since I 
 couldn't lever the bike with my lower foot as a fixed point. Suddenly, my 
 power output was limited by my body weight...

 In the article, I compared it to opening the lid of a jar. If you hold 
 the jar with one hand and the lid with the other, you can apply way more 
 force than if you have your friend hold the jar while you turn the lid.

 Considering this, I am not sure I want to put our limited resources into 
 a more sophisticated study.

 Jan Heine
 Editor
 Bicycle Quarterly
 Seattle WA USA
 www.bikequarterly.com

 Follow our blog at http://janheine.wordpress.com/

 On Wednesday, June 3, 2015 at 9:28:39 AM UTC-7, Jayme Frye wrote:

 Received my summer issue of BQ. I am disappointed with the published 
 test. Not that the test does not support my position but that it was a 
 seat-of-the-pants test. I was expecting/hoping for power outputs, VO2 
 charts, lactate threshold kinds of data. This is what I would expect from 
 the BQ crew given all the rigor applied to tire testing. 

 Jayme

 On Friday, May 15, 2015 at 9:23:53 AM UTC-5, Patrick Moore wrote:

 Doubtless of interest to RBW listers. Quoted from the Compass blog for 
 those who don't read it or BQ.

 I'll be very interested myself, as someone hitherto convinced that 
 retention is a great help. If tests show that retention doesn't help, I'd 
 probably still keep retention on my fixed gears, for safety, and because 
 they do undoubtedly allow pulling up for more torque when climbing steep 
 hills, but would undoubtedly switch to platforms for my off road 
 derailleur 
 bike.














 *Jayme Frye says:May 15, 2015 at 6:27 amI was with you up until SPD 
 clipless pedals. I am not convinced there is any need for retention 
 systems 
 outside the ultra competitive world of pro cycling (primarily sprints). 
 Perhaps you could use your testing methods on the claims that pedal 
 retention systems are more efficient and allow the rider to produce more 
 power by pulling up. That would make for a great BQ article.CheersReplyJan 
 Heine, Editor, Bicycle Quarterly says:May 15, 2015 at 6:55 amWe did test 
 this. It’s in the Summer issue, which will come out soon…Reply*

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Re: [RBW] Re: BQ to publish study of pedal retention usefulness in Summer issue

[Patrick Moore]

Why haven't I received my copy??? I want it!!

I had hoped this article reported a scientific study, but even if it don't,
it will be interesting to read others' experiences on the matter. Me,
riding fixed or, when using gears, not using them a great deal, I find that
I do pull up hard on hills and pedal in circles with some energy (scare
quotes because I know it's really not true circles) when I want a little
extra power to crest a rise or when I turn into a wind.

I liked clips and straps with Bass, Sperry, Timberland boat-type shoes, but
found that, when climbing hills hard, I would pull my shoes out of the
straps or, often, my feet out of the shoes. Slotted cleats avoided this,
but then why not just use clipless?

OTOH, Bruce Boyson (was he ever on this list? He used to be on the
iBoblist), who apparently is a ss off roader of some mileage and
competence, described leaving his multigeared, clipped-in, suspended
friends behind on tough singletrack using platform pedals, and young Vaughn
at Stevie's, who is strong enough to be competitive in local cyclocross,
says platforms don't slow him down at all on his ss's, uphill or on 35 mph
rough dirt downhills.

On Sun, Jun 7, 2015 at 3:11 PM, Brian Hefferan brian...@gmail.com wrote:

 I like the two hands opening a jar lid analogy. Is power output really
 limited by the rider's body weight when using platform pedals, though? It
 seems that by pulling hard on the handlebars in rhythm with the pedal
 stroke, some of that force of can be added to the downward leg thrust. The
 arms pulling the bars would be analogous to the hand holding the jar while
 the lid is twisted off.

 I do feel a big boost powering up hills when I pull with my biceps. While
 it doesn't feel as smooth as pulling with the leg during the pedal
 upstroke, I don't see how it would be less efficient.  I seem to get up
 most hills about as well either way, steep ones excepted.

 Brian Hefferan
 Lansing, Michigan

 On Wednesday, June 3, 2015 at 2:07:49 PM UTC-4, Jan Heine wrote:

 I am sorry that there was a misperception that we did a detailed study of
 pedal retention. We tested a few pedals, both with and without retention,
 and the results were interesting. Whether a more rigorous study is needed
 when the results are so clear is another matter. To cite an even more
 extreme case: Do we also need a rigorous study to prove that a bike with
 flat tires rolls slower?

 I think it's pretty clear that during normal riding, retention makes
 little difference. Grant P. is right when he says that you don't pull up
 much, if at all. However, during short efforts on rolling terrain, it's
 obvious that you can pull up, and I did realize how much I do pull up when
 that ability was taken away. On the same bike and the same course, I
 suddenly needed to shift on the smallest hills, whereas usually, I just
 roll over them. And getting out of the saddle had no benefit, since I
 couldn't lever the bike with my lower foot as a fixed point. Suddenly, my
 power output was limited by my body weight...

 In the article, I compared it to opening the lid of a jar. If you hold
 the jar with one hand and the lid with the other, you can apply way more
 force than if you have your friend hold the jar while you turn the lid.

 Considering this, I am not sure I want to put our limited resources into
 a more sophisticated study.

 Jan Heine
 Editor
 Bicycle Quarterly
 Seattle WA USA
 www.bikequarterly.com

 Follow our blog at http://janheine.wordpress.com/

 On Wednesday, June 3, 2015 at 9:28:39 AM UTC-7, Jayme Frye wrote:

 Received my summer issue of BQ. I am disappointed with the published
 test. Not that the test does not support my position but that it was a
 seat-of-the-pants test. I was expecting/hoping for power outputs, VO2
 charts, lactate threshold kinds of data. This is what I would expect from
 the BQ crew given all the rigor applied to tire testing.

 Jayme


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circumference on the rim of which all conditions, distinctions, and
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*Kinei hos eromenon. It moves as the being-loved. *Aristotle

*The Love that moves the Sun and all the other 

Re: [RBW] Re: BQ to publish study of pedal retention usefulness in Summer issue

[Ron Mc]

From this distance, I'm still in awe of Anne's bike.  But I had one of the 
best chats with a couple of roadies at yesterday's halfway stop that I can 
ever remember.  These guys had followed me on my upright for 8 miles before 
they gained momentum to pass.  As we came out of the creek bottom with its 
protective cypress tunnel, onto the open fields and headwind of the flood 
plain, they distanced me pretty good.  I caught them at the highway 
intersection, and stayed pretty close up the 2-mi hill at least until I 
neared the shallower slope at the top and again, the teeth of the headwind. 
 When I landed at the county park for a water break, they were stretching 
out, about to load their bikes and wanted to talk about mine.  If I have 
anything to brag about on this bike, it's the gearing, five single step 
cogs 12-16, then 4 wide steps, 18-21-24-29.  Compact double crank, 42/25T. 
 But I have narrow steps where we live, 60 to 85 and can find a cruising 
gear for any condition and pace, and, likewise, have great choices on the 
small ring, narrow steps below 55 all the way down to 23.  When I ride 
from home, every ride ends with a 400' climb that includes some 14% grade. 
 These guys have been riding out here a long time, know the area and the 
climbs.  Their one defense was throwing out how heavy my bike must be.  I 
explained to them it wasn't that bad, and that's OK - everybody wants to 
believe their own choices have merit - and they do.  

On Monday, May 18, 2015 at 10:13:27 AM UTC-5, Anne Paulson wrote:

 I don't want to get into an argument about whether a guy of my age 
 would have gotten the same comments about clipless pedals. Maybe, 
 maybe not. And I certainly believe that the comments were 
 well-intentioned. 

 But Will, I think you're missing the point. It's not about the cost of 
 the item; it's about how out of the mainstream it is. Some bikes are 
 more obviously intentional than other bikes. It's easy to end up with 
 a $5K carbon bike; if you walk into a bike store with $5K and a desire 
 for an expensive bike, you are not unlikely to walk out with a $5K 
 racing-style carbon bike. That'll be the default, in many cases. There 
 is nothing unusual about a $5K carbon bike, at least where I live. 
 Someone could have one because they carefully evaluated all the 
 alternatives and deliberately chose exactly what was on their bike, 
 but they could also have one because they got the thing that people 
 buy. The same is true for an expensive Graco stroller; it's expensive, 
 but nobody has to go out of their way to buy a Graco stroller. 

 On the other hand, some bikes are clearly chosen. If I see someone 
 touring on a generic Surly Long Haul Trucker, well, that's a pretty 
 common bike to tour on. But if I see someone touring on a singlespeed 
 'cross bike, I'm going to figure they chose to tour on a singlespeed 
 'cross bike, and I'm not going to tell them they should consider using 
 gears. I might have a long and interesting discussion about the merits 
 of gears versus singlespeed when bike touring, but I'm not going to 
 assume that they're riding a singlespeed because they never heard of 
 gears before. 

 I always enjoy looking at individualized bikes, and talking to their 
 owners about why they made the choices they did. It's one thing that's 
 fun about meeting up with other Rivendell riders. 

 Here's the baby example: if you were changing the baby, and a woman 
 noticed you were using cloth diapers, would you like it if she started 
 telling you about disposable diapers? That would be annoying.  People 
 who use cloth diapers chose cloth diapers. And people on bikes with 
 Rohloff hubs, Gates belts, dynamos and flat pedals chose flat pedals. 

 But other 
 On Mon, May 18, 2015 at 7:35 AM, Will waller@gmail.com javascript: 
 wrote: 
  That's true. But when I walked the babies I didn't think the advice that 
 I 
  received was ill-intentioned, nor did I get into a gender wrangle with 
 it 
  (or post to a use-group). 

  The second point is: do not assume that your bike's (or stroller's) 
 setup 
  implies credibility. I have seen lots of folks riding expensive carbon 
 bikes 
  that don't make sense (to me). Does the fact that they are riding a 5K 
 bike 
  mean they have a clue? 


 -- 
 -- Anne Paulson 

 It isn't a contest. Enjoy the ride. 


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[RBW] Re: BQ to publish study of pedal retention usefulness in Summer issue

['Mojo' via RBW Owners Bunch]

I too was disappointed with the study. By study I thought Jan meant a 
scientific study where a hypotheses was rigorously tested with a repeatable 
methodology that would refine the hypothesis. Instead it was subjective 
with non-repeatable observations of how Jan reacted to a system that was 
different to his own pedal system and possibly his own bias. At the end of 
the short article, we are left with an untested hypothesis that Uphills, 
especially short rises, are easier when your feet are firmly attached to 
the pedals. 

I personally don't disagree with this hypothesis, just like in the past I 
didn't disagree with the hypothesis that tire pressure was directly 
correlated to speed.

I think if Jan had advertised that he had some observations of pedal 
performance or some such wording, then I would have not had an expectation 
of a (scientific) study.

Joe huge fan of BQ and pay for 3 subscriptions Ramey

On Wednesday, June 3, 2015 at 12:07:49 PM UTC-6, Jan Heine wrote:

 I am sorry that there was a misperception that we did a detailed study of 
 pedal retention. We tested a few pedals, both with and without retention, 
 and the results were interesting. Whether a more rigorous study is needed 
 when the results are so clear is another matter. To cite an even more 
 extreme case: Do we also need a rigorous study to prove that a bike with 
 flat tires rolls slower?

 I think it's pretty clear that during normal riding, retention makes 
 little difference. Grant P. is right when he says that you don't pull up 
 much, if at all. However, during short efforts on rolling terrain, it's 
 obvious that you can pull up, and I did realize how much I do pull up when 
 that ability was taken away. On the same bike and the same course, I 
 suddenly needed to shift on the smallest hills, whereas usually, I just 
 roll over them. And getting out of the saddle had no benefit, since I 
 couldn't lever the bike with my lower foot as a fixed point. Suddenly, my 
 power output was limited by my body weight...

 In the article, I compared it to opening the lid of a jar. If you hold the 
 jar with one hand and the lid with the other, you can apply way more force 
 than if you have your friend hold the jar while you turn the lid.

 Considering this, I am not sure I want to put our limited resources into a 
 more sophisticated study.

 Jan Heine
 Editor
 Bicycle Quarterly
 Seattle WA USA
 www.bikequarterly.com

 Follow our blog at http://janheine.wordpress.com/

 On Wednesday, June 3, 2015 at 9:28:39 AM UTC-7, Jayme Frye wrote:

 Received my summer issue of BQ. I am disappointed with the published 
 test. Not that the test does not support my position but that it was a 
 seat-of-the-pants test. I was expecting/hoping for power outputs, VO2 
 charts, lactate threshold kinds of data. This is what I would expect from 
 the BQ crew given all the rigor applied to tire testing. 

 Jayme

 On Friday, May 15, 2015 at 9:23:53 AM UTC-5, Patrick Moore wrote:

 Doubtless of interest to RBW listers. Quoted from the Compass blog for 
 those who don't read it or BQ.

 I'll be very interested myself, as someone hitherto convinced that 
 retention is a great help. If tests show that retention doesn't help, I'd 
 probably still keep retention on my fixed gears, for safety, and because 
 they do undoubtedly allow pulling up for more torque when climbing steep 
 hills, but would undoubtedly switch to platforms for my off road derailleur 
 bike.














 *Jayme Frye says:May 15, 2015 at 6:27 amI was with you up until SPD 
 clipless pedals. I am not convinced there is any need for retention systems 
 outside the ultra competitive world of pro cycling (primarily sprints). 
 Perhaps you could use your testing methods on the claims that pedal 
 retention systems are more efficient and allow the rider to produce more 
 power by pulling up. That would make for a great BQ article.CheersReplyJan 
 Heine, Editor, Bicycle Quarterly says:May 15, 2015 at 6:55 amWe did test 
 this. It’s in the Summer issue, which will come out soon…Reply*

 -- 
 Resumes, LinkedIn profiles, bios, and letters that get interviews.
 By-the-hour resume and LinkedIn coaching.
 Other professional writing services.
 http://www.resumespecialties.com/
 www.linkedin.com/in/patrickmooreresumespec/
 Patrick Moore
 Alburquerque, Nouvelle Mexique,  Vereinigte Staaten

 *
 *The point which is the pivot of the norm is the motionless center of a 
 circumference on the rim of which all conditions, distinctions, and 
 individualities revolve. *Chuang Tzu

 *Kinei hos eromenon. It moves as the being-loved. *Aristotle

 *The Love that moves the Sun and all the other stars. *Dante  
  


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[RBW] Re: BQ to publish study of pedal retention usefulness in Summer issue

[Garth]

What is everyone expecting ?   Stating the obvious , whatever one chooses 
to use for pedals , let alone anything , they'll seek and find 
justification from wherever they can get it to support their choice, or 
they make up their own evidence  . *No scientific study is or can be 
Absolutely objective, ever !   *

As in A Few Good Men  .. 
Q= I want the Truth ! (wanting the Absolute Truth)
A= You can't handle the Truth  (Absolute)

Man's science can't handle the Truth Absolute. 


So . . . .  it always kinda comes down to . . . . Just Ride  . . . .and 
Smile :) 

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Re: [RBW] Re: BQ to publish study of pedal retention usefulness in Summer issue

[Patrick Moore]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-refuting_idea


On Mon, Jun 8, 2015 at 10:02 AM, Garth garth...@gmail.com wrote:


 What is everyone expecting ?   Stating the obvious , whatever one chooses
 to use for pedals , let alone anything , they'll seek and find
 justification from wherever they can get it to support their choice, or
 they make up their own evidence  . *No scientific study is or can be
 Absolutely objective, ever !   *

 As in A Few Good Men  ..
 Q= I want the Truth ! (wanting the Absolute Truth)
 A= You can't handle the Truth  (Absolute)

 Man's science can't handle the Truth Absolute.


 So . . . .  it always kinda comes down to . . . . Just Ride  . . . .and
 Smile :)

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*
*The point which is the pivot of the norm is the motionless center of a
circumference on the rim of which all conditions, distinctions, and
individualities revolve. *Chuang Tzu

*Kinei hos eromenon. It moves as the being-loved. *Aristotle

*The Love that moves the Sun and all the other stars. *Dante

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[RBW] Re: BQ to publish study of pedal retention usefulness in Summer issue

[Brian Hefferan]

I like the two hands opening a jar lid analogy. Is power output really 
limited by the rider's body weight when using platform pedals, though? It 
seems that by pulling hard on the handlebars in rhythm with the pedal 
stroke, some of that force of can be added to the downward leg thrust. The 
arms pulling the bars would be analogous to the hand holding the jar while 
the lid is twisted off.

I do feel a big boost powering up hills when I pull with my biceps. While 
it doesn't feel as smooth as pulling with the leg during the pedal 
upstroke, I don't see how it would be less efficient.  I seem to get up 
most hills about as well either way, steep ones excepted.

Brian Hefferan
Lansing, Michigan

On Wednesday, June 3, 2015 at 2:07:49 PM UTC-4, Jan Heine wrote:

 I am sorry that there was a misperception that we did a detailed study of 
 pedal retention. We tested a few pedals, both with and without retention, 
 and the results were interesting. Whether a more rigorous study is needed 
 when the results are so clear is another matter. To cite an even more 
 extreme case: Do we also need a rigorous study to prove that a bike with 
 flat tires rolls slower?

 I think it's pretty clear that during normal riding, retention makes 
 little difference. Grant P. is right when he says that you don't pull up 
 much, if at all. However, during short efforts on rolling terrain, it's 
 obvious that you can pull up, and I did realize how much I do pull up when 
 that ability was taken away. On the same bike and the same course, I 
 suddenly needed to shift on the smallest hills, whereas usually, I just 
 roll over them. And getting out of the saddle had no benefit, since I 
 couldn't lever the bike with my lower foot as a fixed point. Suddenly, my 
 power output was limited by my body weight...

 In the article, I compared it to opening the lid of a jar. If you hold the 
 jar with one hand and the lid with the other, you can apply way more force 
 than if you have your friend hold the jar while you turn the lid.

 Considering this, I am not sure I want to put our limited resources into a 
 more sophisticated study.

 Jan Heine
 Editor
 Bicycle Quarterly
 Seattle WA USA
 www.bikequarterly.com

 Follow our blog at http://janheine.wordpress.com/

 On Wednesday, June 3, 2015 at 9:28:39 AM UTC-7, Jayme Frye wrote:

 Received my summer issue of BQ. I am disappointed with the published 
 test. Not that the test does not support my position but that it was a 
 seat-of-the-pants test. I was expecting/hoping for power outputs, VO2 
 charts, lactate threshold kinds of data. This is what I would expect from 
 the BQ crew given all the rigor applied to tire testing. 

 Jayme


  

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[RBW] Re: BQ to publish study of pedal retention usefulness in Summer issue

[Jayme Frye]

Received my summer issue of BQ. I am disappointed with the published 
test. Not that the test does not support my position but that it was a 
seat-of-the-pants test. I was expecting/hoping for power outputs, VO2 
charts, lactate threshold kinds of data. This is what I would expect from 
the BQ crew given all the rigor applied to tire testing. 

Jayme

On Friday, May 15, 2015 at 9:23:53 AM UTC-5, Patrick Moore wrote:

 Doubtless of interest to RBW listers. Quoted from the Compass blog for 
 those who don't read it or BQ.

 I'll be very interested myself, as someone hitherto convinced that 
 retention is a great help. If tests show that retention doesn't help, I'd 
 probably still keep retention on my fixed gears, for safety, and because 
 they do undoubtedly allow pulling up for more torque when climbing steep 
 hills, but would undoubtedly switch to platforms for my off road derailleur 
 bike.














 *Jayme Frye says:May 15, 2015 at 6:27 amI was with you up until SPD 
 clipless pedals. I am not convinced there is any need for retention systems 
 outside the ultra competitive world of pro cycling (primarily sprints). 
 Perhaps you could use your testing methods on the claims that pedal 
 retention systems are more efficient and allow the rider to produce more 
 power by pulling up. That would make for a great BQ article.CheersReplyJan 
 Heine, Editor, Bicycle Quarterly says:May 15, 2015 at 6:55 amWe did test 
 this. It’s in the Summer issue, which will come out soon…Reply*

 -- 
 Resumes, LinkedIn profiles, bios, and letters that get interviews.
 By-the-hour resume and LinkedIn coaching.
 Other professional writing services.
 http://www.resumespecialties.com/
 www.linkedin.com/in/patrickmooreresumespec/
 Patrick Moore
 Alburquerque, Nouvelle Mexique,  Vereinigte Staaten

 *
 *The point which is the pivot of the norm is the motionless center of a 
 circumference on the rim of which all conditions, distinctions, and 
 individualities revolve. *Chuang Tzu

 *Kinei hos eromenon. It moves as the being-loved. *Aristotle

 *The Love that moves the Sun and all the other stars. *Dante  
  

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[RBW] Re: BQ to publish study of pedal retention usefulness in Summer issue

[Jan Heine]

I am sorry that there was a misperception that we did a detailed study of 
pedal retention. We tested a few pedals, both with and without retention, 
and the results were interesting. Whether a more rigorous study is needed 
when the results are so clear is another matter. To cite an even more 
extreme case: Do we also need a rigorous study to prove that a bike with 
flat tires rolls slower?

I think it's pretty clear that during normal riding, retention makes 
little difference. Grant P. is right when he says that you don't pull up 
much, if at all. However, during short efforts on rolling terrain, it's 
obvious that you can pull up, and I did realize how much I do pull up when 
that ability was taken away. On the same bike and the same course, I 
suddenly needed to shift on the smallest hills, whereas usually, I just 
roll over them. And getting out of the saddle had no benefit, since I 
couldn't lever the bike with my lower foot as a fixed point. Suddenly, my 
power output was limited by my body weight...

In the article, I compared it to opening the lid of a jar. If you hold the 
jar with one hand and the lid with the other, you can apply way more force 
than if you have your friend hold the jar while you turn the lid.

Considering this, I am not sure I want to put our limited resources into a 
more sophisticated study.

Jan Heine
Editor
Bicycle Quarterly
Seattle WA USA
www.bikequarterly.com

Follow our blog at http://janheine.wordpress.com/

On Wednesday, June 3, 2015 at 9:28:39 AM UTC-7, Jayme Frye wrote:

 Received my summer issue of BQ. I am disappointed with the published 
 test. Not that the test does not support my position but that it was a 
 seat-of-the-pants test. I was expecting/hoping for power outputs, VO2 
 charts, lactate threshold kinds of data. This is what I would expect from 
 the BQ crew given all the rigor applied to tire testing. 

 Jayme

 On Friday, May 15, 2015 at 9:23:53 AM UTC-5, Patrick Moore wrote:

 Doubtless of interest to RBW listers. Quoted from the Compass blog for 
 those who don't read it or BQ.

 I'll be very interested myself, as someone hitherto convinced that 
 retention is a great help. If tests show that retention doesn't help, I'd 
 probably still keep retention on my fixed gears, for safety, and because 
 they do undoubtedly allow pulling up for more torque when climbing steep 
 hills, but would undoubtedly switch to platforms for my off road derailleur 
 bike.














 *Jayme Frye says:May 15, 2015 at 6:27 amI was with you up until SPD 
 clipless pedals. I am not convinced there is any need for retention systems 
 outside the ultra competitive world of pro cycling (primarily sprints). 
 Perhaps you could use your testing methods on the claims that pedal 
 retention systems are more efficient and allow the rider to produce more 
 power by pulling up. That would make for a great BQ article.CheersReplyJan 
 Heine, Editor, Bicycle Quarterly says:May 15, 2015 at 6:55 amWe did test 
 this. It’s in the Summer issue, which will come out soon…Reply*

 -- 
 Resumes, LinkedIn profiles, bios, and letters that get interviews.
 By-the-hour resume and LinkedIn coaching.
 Other professional writing services.
 http://www.resumespecialties.com/
 www.linkedin.com/in/patrickmooreresumespec/
 Patrick Moore
 Alburquerque, Nouvelle Mexique,  Vereinigte Staaten

 *
 *The point which is the pivot of the norm is the motionless center of a 
 circumference on the rim of which all conditions, distinctions, and 
 individualities revolve. *Chuang Tzu

 *Kinei hos eromenon. It moves as the being-loved. *Aristotle

 *The Love that moves the Sun and all the other stars. *Dante  
  


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Re: [RBW] Re: BQ to publish study of pedal retention usefulness in Summer issue

[Jack K]

To illustrate what I find odd in Mike's post (below) I'll suggest the 
following modification of it. To be clear, this is suggested merely to 
illustrate a point and possibly foster useful discussion.

On the lugged steel wannabe retro grouches... I see at least a dozen a 
day. I live in an aging upper middle class neighborhood and they ride 
their bikes to the coffee shop all day long.  Highend custom steel bike 
with flat pedals and running shoes and mirrors.  At least they don't have 
 those goofy plaid bicycle bags!  I'm glad they are out riding but the 
need to belong is strong.

Cheers and safe riding!

-Jack


On Monday, May 18, 2015 at 5:49:05 PM UTC-4, Mike Schiller wrote:

 Huh?  I didn't say I ride an upright bike.  On all 3 of my low trail 
 custom's I have drop bars a inch or so below the saddle. I was referring to 
 Mr P.

 On the carbon wannabe racers... I see at least a dozen a day. I live along 
 the coast in SoCal and they ride their bikes up and down all day long. 
  Carbon bike with flat pedals and running shoes and mirrors.  At least they 
 don't have  those goofy interrupter brake levers!  I'm glad they are out 
 riding but the need to belong is strong.

 ~mike




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Re: [RBW] Re: BQ to publish study of pedal retention usefulness in Summer issue

[Mike Shaljian]

Perhaps Hanlon's Razor applies to this sticky situation:

Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity. 

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Re: [RBW] Re: BQ to publish study of pedal retention usefulness in Summer issue

[Matthew J]

 What's being debated is gender-based knowledge. 

Off topic for the list, no doubt, but mansplaining is definitely a 
well-documented phenomena.  And while there certainly may be anecdotal 
counter narratives* of womansplaining, I find it incredibly hard to believe 
such activity comes anywhere near its male equivalent.

Finally, well into the 21st Century, infant care in the United States for 
better or worse is still seen by a large majority as primarily a female 
activity.  Cycling on the other hand is clearly gender neutral.  Women are 
involved with cycling at its most competitive levels to just having fund on 
a sunny weekend.  The analogy between a stroller and a bike is a big jump. 

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Re: [RBW] Re: BQ to publish study of pedal retention usefulness in Summer issue

[Steve Palincsar]

On 05/18/2015 11:13 AM, Anne Paulson wrote:

On the other hand, some bikes are clearly chosen. If I see someone
touring on a generic Surly Long Haul Trucker, well, that's a pretty
common bike to tour on. But if I see someone touring on a singlespeed
'cross bike, I'm going to figure they chose to tour on a singlespeed
'cross bike, and I'm not going to tell them they should consider using
gears. I might have a long and interesting discussion about the merits
of gears versus singlespeed when bike touring, but I'm not going to
assume that they're riding a singlespeed because they never heard of
gears before.

I always enjoy looking at individualized bikes, and talking to their
owners about why they made the choices they did. It's one thing that's
fun about meeting up with other Rivendell riders.


But you are experienced, intelligent and wise.  You are not in the first 
flush of new conversion, brimming over with new knowledge, new 
truths and full of certainty, recently assimilated from an intensive 
study of bike magazines, etc.   Some of these people, like new converts 
to any religion or enthusiasm, cannot help being jerks.  I suspect it is 
not -- or at least, not entirely -- gender-based, because it definitely 
does happen to out-of-the-mainstream men too.  I'm sure when they look 
at something out of the norm they do not see a carefully chosen solution 
based on experience; they see someone who hasn't gotten The Word yet.


I have had people on a long ride in the middle of a torrential downpour 
stand there and tell me that my fenders are worthless, and this after 
they have been riding inside of a rooster tail in a pace line for a 
couple of hours.



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Re: [RBW] Re: BQ to publish study of pedal retention usefulness in Summer issue

[Will]

That's true. But when I walked the babies I didn't think the advice that I 
received was ill-intentioned, nor did I get into a gender wrangle with it 
(or post to a use-group). 

I listened and hoped to learn something. Mostly I didn't (learn anything). 
But the point is: gender knowledge isn't uniformly distributed. 

The second point is: do not assume that your bike's (or stroller's) setup 
implies credibility. I have seen lots of folks riding expensive carbon 
bikes that don't make sense (to me). Does the fact that they are riding a 
5K bike mean they have a clue? 

Answer = NO.   

So whether pedals were his business or not isn't what is being debated. 
What's being debated is gender-based knowledge. 

Will

On Monday, May 18, 2015 at 9:05:09 AM UTC-5, Matthew J wrote:

  It might simply be that the young man believed that clip-in pedals were 
 more efficient. 

 Whatever the rider thought, it was none of his business.  

 On point - I tour with half clips and don't wear cycle specific clothing 
 when touring.  Two years back on a couple day tour from LaCrosse, Wi to 
 Chicago stopped at a lunch spot in a small town a couple spandexed cleat 
 wearing fellows were telling me my ride and attire really don't work for 
 long distance riding.  My statement - 'Yet here I am.' did not seem to 
 convince them.  


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[RBW] Re: BQ to publish study of pedal retention usefulness in Summer issue

[Dave Redmon]

The main reason I use straps with flat pedals is to retain control of the 
pedal when I come to a stop. When it comes time to go, I raise my foot and 
the pedal rises with it. It's quick, reliable and I avoid nicks and bruises 
to my shins.  My pedals are MKS Tourists, which allow use of Power Grips. 

Dave in Kansas 

On Friday, May 15, 2015 at 9:23:53 AM UTC-5, Patrick Moore wrote:

 Doubtless of interest to RBW listers. Quoted from the Compass blog for 
 those who don't read it or BQ.

 I'll be very interested myself, as someone hitherto convinced that 
 retention is a great help. If tests show that retention doesn't help, I'd 
 probably still keep retention on my fixed gears, for safety, and because 
 they do undoubtedly allow pulling up for more torque when climbing steep 
 hills, but would undoubtedly switch to platforms for my off road derailleur 
 bike.














 *Jayme Frye says:May 15, 2015 at 6:27 amI was with you up until SPD 
 clipless pedals. I am not convinced there is any need for retention systems 
 outside the ultra competitive world of pro cycling (primarily sprints). 
 Perhaps you could use your testing methods on the claims that pedal 
 retention systems are more efficient and allow the rider to produce more 
 power by pulling up. That would make for a great BQ article.CheersReplyJan 
 Heine, Editor, Bicycle Quarterly says:May 15, 2015 at 6:55 amWe did test 
 this. It’s in the Summer issue, which will come out soon…Reply*

 -- 
 Resumes, LinkedIn profiles, bios, and letters that get interviews.
 By-the-hour resume and LinkedIn coaching.
 Other professional writing services.
 http://www.resumespecialties.com/
 www.linkedin.com/in/patrickmooreresumespec/
 Patrick Moore
 Alburquerque, Nouvelle Mexique,  Vereinigte Staaten

 *
 *The point which is the pivot of the norm is the motionless center of a 
 circumference on the rim of which all conditions, distinctions, and 
 individualities revolve. *Chuang Tzu

 *Kinei hos eromenon. It moves as the being-loved. *Aristotle

 *The Love that moves the Sun and all the other stars. *Dante  
  

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Re: [RBW] Re: BQ to publish study of pedal retention usefulness in Summer issue

[Anne Paulson]

I don't want to get into an argument about whether a guy of my age
would have gotten the same comments about clipless pedals. Maybe,
maybe not. And I certainly believe that the comments were
well-intentioned.

But Will, I think you're missing the point. It's not about the cost of
the item; it's about how out of the mainstream it is. Some bikes are
more obviously intentional than other bikes. It's easy to end up with
a $5K carbon bike; if you walk into a bike store with $5K and a desire
for an expensive bike, you are not unlikely to walk out with a $5K
racing-style carbon bike. That'll be the default, in many cases. There
is nothing unusual about a $5K carbon bike, at least where I live.
Someone could have one because they carefully evaluated all the
alternatives and deliberately chose exactly what was on their bike,
but they could also have one because they got the thing that people
buy. The same is true for an expensive Graco stroller; it's expensive,
but nobody has to go out of their way to buy a Graco stroller.

On the other hand, some bikes are clearly chosen. If I see someone
touring on a generic Surly Long Haul Trucker, well, that's a pretty
common bike to tour on. But if I see someone touring on a singlespeed
'cross bike, I'm going to figure they chose to tour on a singlespeed
'cross bike, and I'm not going to tell them they should consider using
gears. I might have a long and interesting discussion about the merits
of gears versus singlespeed when bike touring, but I'm not going to
assume that they're riding a singlespeed because they never heard of
gears before.

I always enjoy looking at individualized bikes, and talking to their
owners about why they made the choices they did. It's one thing that's
fun about meeting up with other Rivendell riders.

Here's the baby example: if you were changing the baby, and a woman
noticed you were using cloth diapers, would you like it if she started
telling you about disposable diapers? That would be annoying.  People
who use cloth diapers chose cloth diapers. And people on bikes with
Rohloff hubs, Gates belts, dynamos and flat pedals chose flat pedals.

But other
On Mon, May 18, 2015 at 7:35 AM, Will waller.will...@gmail.com wrote:
 That's true. But when I walked the babies I didn't think the advice that I
 received was ill-intentioned, nor did I get into a gender wrangle with it
 (or post to a use-group).

 The second point is: do not assume that your bike's (or stroller's) setup
 implies credibility. I have seen lots of folks riding expensive carbon bikes
 that don't make sense (to me). Does the fact that they are riding a 5K bike
 mean they have a clue?


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It isn't a contest. Enjoy the ride.

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Re: [RBW] Re: BQ to publish study of pedal retention usefulness in Summer issue

[Matthew J]

 It might simply be that the young man believed that clip-in pedals were 
more efficient. 

Whatever the rider thought, it was none of his business.  

On point - I tour with half clips and don't wear cycle specific clothing 
when touring.  Two years back on a couple day tour from LaCrosse, Wi to 
Chicago stopped at a lunch spot in a small town a couple spandexed cleat 
wearing fellows were telling me my ride and attire really don't work for 
long distance riding.  My statement - 'Yet here I am.' did not seem to 
convince them.  

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Re: [RBW] Re: BQ to publish study of pedal retention usefulness in Summer issue

[Patrick Moore]

Yanking the thread back to retentionless, Vaughn, the you 20-something
mechanic as Stevie's says he rides nothing but platforms (what *is* the
proper term for pedals with grippy flats but no clip mech? Non-no-clips?)
and feels fully confident bombing at 35 mph down very rough tracks. He also
says he finds it no hindrance for applying power in climbs.

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Re: [RBW] Re: BQ to publish study of pedal retention usefulness in Summer issue

[Patrick Moore]

I think the incident was a huge opportunity for a magnificent put-down,
something along the lines of, Joe Blow of Surly and I conferred about this
build, and we both agreed with Tom Ritchey and Keith Bontrager that flat
pedals work best for this setup. I must say it works for me; my last 3
customs weren't nearly as nice.

Of course, the dork probably started riding in 2012 and doesn't know
Ritchey or Bontrager from Graco.

On Mon, May 18, 2015 at 7:53 AM, Will waller.will...@gmail.com wrote:

 I dunno about this.

 I remember walking the babies in a backpack and stroller. It never failed
 that women (never men) would give unsolicited advice on things. Socks
 needed to be pulled up, hats needed adjusting, sun screen, and so forth.

 I never made it a gender issue. And I never thought that they should
 understand that my top-of-the-line Graco stroller with all the expedition
 options (like special wheels) would inform them of my parenting knowledge.

 I think this is true for bikes. It might simply be that the young man
 believed that clip-in pedals were more efficient. And it might be that your
 Krampus with all the Gucci parts didn't register with him. Rohloff doesn't
 mean much to me and I know what it costs.

 Will





 On Saturday, May 16, 2015 at 9:09:13 AM UTC-5, Anne Paulson wrote:

 Is this mansplaining, or does this happen to you, too:

 I was out riding my Surly Krampus on some fire roads that are, to be
 honest, too steep for me. So I was doing a lot of walking. But that's
 OK, I don't mind walking.

 At the top, I came upon three guys who had ridden up the other side,
 the easy way. We got to chatting, and, as often happened, they asked
 me about my bike. I have flats on the bike. And then one of the guys
 took it upon himself to tell me I should start riding clipless. He
 explained that clipless would make my pedalling stronger, yadda,
 yadda.

 I answered politely, but I was furious. It should have been obvious to
 him that my bike was carefully chosen: it has 3 tires, a belt drive,
 a dynamo and a Rohloff hub. This is not a bike that one can can buy
 off the shop floor; it's a custom bike, and one that he should have
 realized I chose after careful consideration. Why, then, did he assume
 that a rider who had ridden for 40 years, and who had carefully chosen
 all the parts of her bike, would be ignorant of clipless pedals, and
 that somehow flats got on my bike by accident?

 Don't be a jerk. Don't assume that riders who make different choices
 than you do don't know what they're doing. And don't assume that women
 automatically need the benefit of your superior knowledge.

 On Sat, May 16, 2015 at 5:15 AM, Garth gart...@gmail.com wrote:
 
   good read :
 
 http://www.bikejames.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/Flat-Pedal-Revolution-Manifesto.pdf
 
  from here :
 
 http://www.bikejames.com/strength/the-flat-pedal-revolution-manifesto-how-to-improve-your-riding-with-flat-pedals/
 
 
  You don't have to change your mind and thinking  nor can you truly
 .
  You can and do however .  . .  Understand :)
 
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Re: [RBW] Re: BQ to publish study of pedal retention usefulness in Summer issue

[Will]

I dunno about this. 

I remember walking the babies in a backpack and stroller. It never failed 
that women (never men) would give unsolicited advice on things. Socks 
needed to be pulled up, hats needed adjusting, sun screen, and so forth. 

I never made it a gender issue. And I never thought that they should 
understand that my top-of-the-line Graco stroller with all the expedition 
options (like special wheels) would inform them of my parenting knowledge.

I think this is true for bikes. It might simply be that the young man 
believed that clip-in pedals were more efficient. And it might be that your 
Krampus with all the Gucci parts didn't register with him. Rohloff doesn't 
mean much to me and I know what it costs. 

Will




On Saturday, May 16, 2015 at 9:09:13 AM UTC-5, Anne Paulson wrote:

 Is this mansplaining, or does this happen to you, too: 

 I was out riding my Surly Krampus on some fire roads that are, to be 
 honest, too steep for me. So I was doing a lot of walking. But that's 
 OK, I don't mind walking. 

 At the top, I came upon three guys who had ridden up the other side, 
 the easy way. We got to chatting, and, as often happened, they asked 
 me about my bike. I have flats on the bike. And then one of the guys 
 took it upon himself to tell me I should start riding clipless. He 
 explained that clipless would make my pedalling stronger, yadda, 
 yadda. 

 I answered politely, but I was furious. It should have been obvious to 
 him that my bike was carefully chosen: it has 3 tires, a belt drive, 
 a dynamo and a Rohloff hub. This is not a bike that one can can buy 
 off the shop floor; it's a custom bike, and one that he should have 
 realized I chose after careful consideration. Why, then, did he assume 
 that a rider who had ridden for 40 years, and who had carefully chosen 
 all the parts of her bike, would be ignorant of clipless pedals, and 
 that somehow flats got on my bike by accident? 

 Don't be a jerk. Don't assume that riders who make different choices 
 than you do don't know what they're doing. And don't assume that women 
 automatically need the benefit of your superior knowledge. 

 On Sat, May 16, 2015 at 5:15 AM, Garth gart...@gmail.com javascript: 
 wrote: 
  
   good read : 
  
 http://www.bikejames.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/Flat-Pedal-Revolution-Manifesto.pdf
  
  
  from here : 
  
 http://www.bikejames.com/strength/the-flat-pedal-revolution-manifesto-how-to-improve-your-riding-with-flat-pedals/
  
  
  
  You don't have to change your mind and thinking  nor can you truly . 
  You can and do however .  . .  Understand :) 
  
  -- 
  You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google 
 Groups 
  RBW Owners Bunch group. 
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 an 
  email to rbw-owners-bun...@googlegroups.com javascript:. 
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 javascript:. 
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 -- 
 -- Anne Paulson 

 It isn't a contest. Enjoy the ride. 


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Re: [RBW] Re: BQ to publish study of pedal retention usefulness in Summer issue

[Steve Palincsar]

On 05/18/2015 01:24 PM, Mike Schiller wrote:
...of course we all must realize  that the most well researched, 
carefully chosen, and costly bike/stroller may not be the best choice 
for a person/use.  The person on their $5000+ carbon bike most likely 
feels that they made an informed decision even though they would be 
more comfortable on an upright bike with proper gearing and a 
comfortable seat ( where have I heard that before?).


Why are we all assuming the person who bought the $5000 carbon road bike 
made a bad choice?  Simply because you saw them riding on the MUP with 
it?  It may be their only bike, and although it might be sub-optimal for 
a MUP they may do most of their riding on roads and in groups where such 
a bike is a perfectly appropriate choice. What's more, because you are 
more comfortable on an upright bike, why assume they would be?  Not 
everyone finds road bikes uncomfortable, and not everyone finds upright 
bikes comfortable. And, of course, everyone's idea of a comfortable seat 
is different.



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Re: [RBW] Re: BQ to publish study of pedal retention usefulness in Summer issue

[Mike Schiller]

...of course we all must realize  that the most well researched, carefully 
chosen, and costly bike/stroller may not be the best choice for a 
person/use.  The person on their $5000+ carbon bike most likely feels that 
they made an informed decision even though they would be more comfortable 
on an upright bike with proper gearing and a comfortable seat ( where have 
I heard that before?). 

 So rather than take offense at others suggestions, sometimes it's best to 
just absorb the information, decide what to use and go on with your ride. 

~mike
Carlsbad Ca.

 




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Re: [RBW] Re: BQ to publish study of pedal retention usefulness in Summer issue

[Will]

Anne,

I think we agree. I watch folks on the bikepaths here riding $5K bikes. 
Yes... they went to the LBS and many of them got hosed. 

I had a young person give me the business last month. She was on an Orbea 
with all the go-fast bits. I was on my Atlantis (with fenders). She wanted 
to know why I was running bar-ends. 

How do you explain bar-ends to someone who's running STI? How do you 
explain an Atlantis to someone who's riding ovalized tubes to reduce wind 
resistance? 

My point is not that gender equals stupid. (although I think Orbea = 
stupid). But gender is a convenient anchor we use to frame discussion. 

Will
 

On Monday, May 18, 2015 at 10:13:27 AM UTC-5, Anne Paulson wrote:

 I don't want to get into an argument about whether a guy of my age 
 would have gotten the same comments about clipless pedals. Maybe, 
 maybe not. And I certainly believe that the comments were 
 well-intentioned. 

 But Will, I think you're missing the point. It's not about the cost of 
 the item; it's about how out of the mainstream it is. Some bikes are 
 more obviously intentional than other bikes. It's easy to end up with 
 a $5K carbon bike; if you walk into a bike store with $5K and a desire 
 for an expensive bike, you are not unlikely to walk out with a $5K 
 racing-style carbon bike. That'll be the default, in many cases. There 
 is nothing unusual about a $5K carbon bike, at least where I live. 
 Someone could have one because they carefully evaluated all the 
 alternatives and deliberately chose exactly what was on their bike, 
 but they could also have one because they got the thing that people 
 buy. The same is true for an expensive Graco stroller; it's expensive, 
 but nobody has to go out of their way to buy a Graco stroller. 

 On the other hand, some bikes are clearly chosen. If I see someone 
 touring on a generic Surly Long Haul Trucker, well, that's a pretty 
 common bike to tour on. But if I see someone touring on a singlespeed 
 'cross bike, I'm going to figure they chose to tour on a singlespeed 
 'cross bike, and I'm not going to tell them they should consider using 
 gears. I might have a long and interesting discussion about the merits 
 of gears versus singlespeed when bike touring, but I'm not going to 
 assume that they're riding a singlespeed because they never heard of 
 gears before. 

 I always enjoy looking at individualized bikes, and talking to their 
 owners about why they made the choices they did. It's one thing that's 
 fun about meeting up with other Rivendell riders. 

 Here's the baby example: if you were changing the baby, and a woman 
 noticed you were using cloth diapers, would you like it if she started 
 telling you about disposable diapers? That would be annoying.  People 
 who use cloth diapers chose cloth diapers. And people on bikes with 
 Rohloff hubs, Gates belts, dynamos and flat pedals chose flat pedals. 

 But other 
 On Mon, May 18, 2015 at 7:35 AM, Will waller@gmail.com javascript: 
 wrote: 
  That's true. But when I walked the babies I didn't think the advice that 
 I 
  received was ill-intentioned, nor did I get into a gender wrangle with 
 it 
  (or post to a use-group). 

  The second point is: do not assume that your bike's (or stroller's) 
 setup 
  implies credibility. I have seen lots of folks riding expensive carbon 
 bikes 
  that don't make sense (to me). Does the fact that they are riding a 5K 
 bike 
  mean they have a clue? 


 -- 
 -- Anne Paulson 

 It isn't a contest. Enjoy the ride. 


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Re: [RBW] Re: BQ to publish study of pedal retention usefulness in Summer issue

[Matthew J]

 Mansplaining is not well documented

Google pulls up thousands of articles on the subject, many from respected 
outlets. 

 I do not think bikes and strollers lack philosophical equivalence. Both 
are transport devices.

Something is lost in translation here.

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Re: [RBW] Re: BQ to publish study of pedal retention usefulness in Summer issue

[Will]

No and no.

Mansplaining is not well documented... and it is exactly why I used the 
stroller example. Women are quite capable of gender indifference in giving 
advice. 

I do not think bikes and strollers lack philosophical equivalence. Both are 
transport devices. 

My point is: despite having spend big $$$ on functional logistics, both 
Anne and I had experiences that suggested folks did not view our equipment 
as experiential. 

Will


On Monday, May 18, 2015 at 10:15:13 AM UTC-5, Matthew J wrote:

  What's being debated is gender-based knowledge. 

 Off topic for the list, no doubt, but mansplaining is definitely a 
 well-documented phenomena.  And while there certainly may be anecdotal 
 counter narratives* of womansplaining, I find it incredibly hard to believe 
 such activity comes anywhere near its male equivalent.

 Finally, well into the 21st Century, infant care in the United States for 
 better or worse is still seen by a large majority as primarily a female 
 activity.  Cycling on the other hand is clearly gender neutral.  Women are 
 involved with cycling at its most competitive levels to just having fund on 
 a sunny weekend.  The analogy between a stroller and a bike is a big jump. 


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Re: [RBW] Re: BQ to publish study of pedal retention usefulness in Summer issue

[Will]

sigh

On Monday, May 18, 2015 at 11:48:18 AM UTC-5, Matthew J wrote:

  Mansplaining is not well documented

 Google pulls up thousands of articles on the subject, many from respected 
 outlets. 

  I do not think bikes and strollers lack philosophical equivalence. Both 
 are transport devices.

 Something is lost in translation here.


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Re: [RBW] Re: BQ to publish study of pedal retention usefulness in Summer issue

[Garth]

On Monday, May 18, 2015 at 10:05:09 AM UTC-4, Matthew J wrote:

  It might simply be that the young man believed that clip-in pedals were 
 more efficient. 

 Whatever the rider thought, it was none of his business.  


Ultimately .  . . .  What someone else think of me is none of* my* business 
!  !   ;-) 

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Re: [RBW] Re: BQ to publish study of pedal retention usefulness in Summer issue

[cyclotour...@gmail.com]

#interruptershaming 

On Monday, May 18, 2015 at 2:49:05 PM UTC-7, Mike Schiller wrote:

 Huh?  I didn't say I ride an upright bike.  On all 3 of my low trail 
 custom's I have drop bars a inch or so below the saddle. I was referring to 
 Mr P.

 On the carbon wannabe racers... I see at least a dozen a day. I live along 
 the coast in SoCal and they ride their bikes up and down all day long. 
  Carbon bike with flat pedals and running shoes and mirrors.  At least they 
 don't have  those goofy interrupter brake levers!  I'm glad they are out 
 riding but the need to belong is strong.

 ~mike




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Re: [RBW] Re: BQ to publish study of pedal retention usefulness in Summer issue

[Mike Schiller]

Huh?  I didn't say I ride an upright bike.  On all 3 of my low trail 
custom's I have drop bars a inch or so below the saddle. I was referring to 
Mr P.

On the carbon wannabe racers... I see at least a dozen a day. I live along 
the coast in SoCal and they ride their bikes up and down all day long. 
 Carbon bike with flat pedals and running shoes and mirrors.  At least they 
don't have  those goofy interrupter brake levers!  I'm glad they are out 
riding but the need to belong is strong.

~mike




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Re: [RBW] Re: BQ to publish study of pedal retention usefulness in Summer issue

[Patrick Moore]

Garth: what *I* think of you is very much your business!

Over and out.

For now.

Patrick playing the age'd fool in ABQ, NM.

On Mon, May 18, 2015 at 12:08 PM, Garth garth...@gmail.com wrote:



 On Monday, May 18, 2015 at 10:05:09 AM UTC-4, Matthew J wrote:

  It might simply be that the young man believed that clip-in pedals were
 more efficient.

 Whatever the rider thought, it was none of his business.


 Ultimately .  . . .  What someone else think of me is none of* my*
 business !  !   ;-)

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Re: [RBW] Re: BQ to publish study of pedal retention usefulness in Summer issue

[Brewster Fong]

On Monday, May 18, 2015 at 11:03:00 AM UTC-7, Steve Palincsar wrote:

 On 05/18/2015 01:24 PM, Mike Schiller wrote: 
  ...of course we all must realize  that the most well researched, 
  carefully chosen, and costly bike/stroller may not be the best choice 
  for a person/use.  The person on their $5000+ carbon bike most likely 
  feels that they made an informed decision even though they would be 
  more comfortable on an upright bike with proper gearing and a 
  comfortable seat ( where have I heard that before?). 

 Why are we all assuming the person who bought the $5000 carbon road bike 
 made a bad choice?  Simply because you saw them riding on the MUP with 
 it?  It may be their only bike, and although it might be sub-optimal for 
 a MUP they may do most of their riding on roads and in groups where such 
 a bike is a perfectly appropriate choice. What's more, because you are 
 more comfortable on an upright bike, why assume they would be?  Not 
 everyone finds road bikes uncomfortable, and not everyone finds upright 
 bikes comfortable. And, of course, everyone's idea of a comfortable seat 
 is different. 

 
Of course, now a days, a lot of $5000 carbon bikes are designed with 
upright seating position for more comfort!  For example, last year my 
buddy, who just got in cycling, went into a Trek store and bought that $5k 
carbon bike! Electronic di2 shifting, tubeless ready wheels (I was able to 
talk him into 700x25 tires!), 600 series carbon frames, integrated garmin 
sensors Well, he also got the H2 fitting position! This is the one 
that has a sloping top tube and a higher head tube for, guess 
what?.waityup, to get that handlebar higher!  Not only is my buddy 
comfortable, he ended up losing 30+lbs and is now one of the fastest guys 
up the hill!   What's not to like?! 

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Re: [RBW] Re: BQ to publish study of pedal retention usefulness in Summer issue

[Steve Palincsar]

On 05/18/2015 04:42 PM, Brewster Fong wrote:


On Monday, May 18, 2015 at 11:03:00 AM UTC-7, Steve Palincsar wrote:

On 05/18/2015 01:24 PM, Mike Schiller wrote:
 ...of course we all must realize  that the most well researched,
 carefully chosen, and costly bike/stroller may not be the best
choice
 for a person/use.  The person on their $5000+ carbon bike most
likely
 feels that they made an informed decision even though they would be
 more comfortable on an upright bike with proper gearing and a
 comfortable seat ( where have I heard that before?).

Why are we all assuming the person who bought the $5000 carbon
road bike
made a bad choice?  Simply because you saw them riding on the MUP
with
it?  It may be their only bike, and although it might be
sub-optimal for
a MUP they may do most of their riding on roads and in groups
where such
a bike is a perfectly appropriate choice. What's more, because you
are
more comfortable on an upright bike, why assume they would be?  Not
everyone finds road bikes uncomfortable, and not everyone finds
upright
bikes comfortable. And, of course, everyone's idea of a
comfortable seat
is different.

Of course, now a days, a lot of $5000 carbon bikes are designed with 
upright seating position for more comfort! For example, last year my 
buddy, who just got in cycling, went into a Trek store and bought that 
$5k carbon bike! Electronic di2 shifting, tubeless ready wheels (I was 
able to talk him into 700x25 tires!), 600 series carbon frames, 
integrated garmin sensors Well, he also got the H2 
fitting position! This is the one that has a sloping top tube and a 
higher head tube for, guess what?.waityup, to get that 
handlebar higher!  Not only is my buddy comfortable, he ended up 
losing 30+lbs and is now one of the fastest guys up the hill!   What's 
not to like?!


The Trek H2 is a far cry from upright.   For most riders other than 
racers, it's far more appropriate than the H1, though.



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Re: [RBW] Re: BQ to publish study of pedal retention usefulness in Summer issue

[John]

Anne, I think my little cousin would have the best response in this 
situation:

Talk to the hand!

And I think Mr. Twain has the best advice for situations like this:

“Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and 
then beat you with experience.”
John


On Saturday, May 16, 2015 at 7:09:13 AM UTC-7, Anne Paulson wrote:

 Is this mansplaining, or does this happen to you, too: 

 I was out riding my Surly Krampus on some fire roads that are, to be 
 honest, too steep for me. So I was doing a lot of walking. But that's 
 OK, I don't mind walking. 

 At the top, I came upon three guys who had ridden up the other side, 
 the easy way. We got to chatting, and, as often happened, they asked 
 me about my bike. I have flats on the bike. And then one of the guys 
 took it upon himself to tell me I should start riding clipless. He 
 explained that clipless would make my pedalling stronger, yadda, 
 yadda. 

 I answered politely, but I was furious. It should have been obvious to 
 him that my bike was carefully chosen: it has 3 tires, a belt drive, 
 a dynamo and a Rohloff hub. This is not a bike that one can can buy 
 off the shop floor; it's a custom bike, and one that he should have 
 realized I chose after careful consideration. Why, then, did he assume 
 that a rider who had ridden for 40 years, and who had carefully chosen 
 all the parts of her bike, would be ignorant of clipless pedals, and 
 that somehow flats got on my bike by accident? 

 Don't be a jerk. Don't assume that riders who make different choices 
 than you do don't know what they're doing. And don't assume that women 
 automatically need the benefit of your superior knowledge. 

 On Sat, May 16, 2015 at 5:15 AM, Garth gart...@gmail.com javascript: 
 wrote: 
  
   good read : 
  
 http://www.bikejames.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/Flat-Pedal-Revolution-Manifesto.pdf
  
  
  from here : 
  
 http://www.bikejames.com/strength/the-flat-pedal-revolution-manifesto-how-to-improve-your-riding-with-flat-pedals/
  
  
  
  You don't have to change your mind and thinking  nor can you truly . 
  You can and do however .  . .  Understand :) 
  
  -- 
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 Groups 
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 It isn't a contest. Enjoy the ride. 


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Re: [RBW] Re: BQ to publish study of pedal retention usefulness in Summer issue

[Brewster Fong]

On Monday, May 18, 2015 at 1:51:41 PM UTC-7, Steve Palincsar wrote:

  On 05/18/2015 04:42 PM, Brewster Fong wrote:
  

 On Monday, May 18, 2015 at 11:03:00 AM UTC-7, Steve Palincsar wrote: 

 On 05/18/2015 01:24 PM, Mike Schiller wrote: 
  ...of course we all must realize  that the most well researched, 
  carefully chosen, and costly bike/stroller may not be the best choice 
  for a person/use.  The person on their $5000+ carbon bike most likely 
  feels that they made an informed decision even though they would be 
  more comfortable on an upright bike with proper gearing and a 
  comfortable seat ( where have I heard that before?). 

 Why are we all assuming the person who bought the $5000 carbon road bike 
 made a bad choice?  Simply because you saw them riding on the MUP with 
 it?  It may be their only bike, and although it might be sub-optimal for 
 a MUP they may do most of their riding on roads and in groups where such 
 a bike is a perfectly appropriate choice. What's more, because you are 
 more comfortable on an upright bike, why assume they would be?  Not 
 everyone finds road bikes uncomfortable, and not everyone finds upright 
 bikes comfortable. And, of course, everyone's idea of a comfortable seat 
 is different. 

  
 Of course, now a days, a lot of $5000 carbon bikes are designed with 
 upright seating position for more comfort!  For example, last year my 
 buddy, who just got in cycling, went into a Trek store and bought that $5k 
 carbon bike! Electronic di2 shifting, tubeless ready wheels (I was able to 
 talk him into 700x25 tires!), 600 series carbon frames, integrated garmin 
 sensors Well, he also got the H2 fitting position! This is the one 
 that has a sloping top tube and a higher head tube for, guess 
 what?.waityup, to get that handlebar higher!  Not only is my buddy 
 comfortable, he ended up losing 30+lbs and is now one of the fastest guys 
 up the hill!   What's not to like?!
  

 The Trek H2 is a far cry from upright.   For most riders other than 
 racers, it's far more appropriate than the H1, though.

 
I don't know, the shop gave him quite a bit of spacers and the bar was 
actually pretty high. Maybe not Nitto technomic high, but his bars were 
definitely pointed up! In fact, once he loss weight, I hate him, he 
actually flipped the stem because he was able to get lower!  I just 
laughed. But as long as he's comfortable, that is what matters! Good Luck! 

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Re: [RBW] Re: BQ to publish study of pedal retention usefulness in Summer issue

[Anne Paulson]

The belt drive is fantastic. The Thudbuster seat post is no longer on
the bike. It turns out that with the small size of the bike and the
big wheels, there is not enough room to use a bikepacking seatbag, so
I installed a Nitto R10 rack. The R10 attaches to the seat post (look
at the bike and tell me where else a rack could attach) and did not
play nicely with the Thudbuster.

The one drawback with the Rohloff/belt drive is removing and
reinstalling the rear wheel. It's a nightmare.

On Sun, May 17, 2015 at 3:35 AM, Tom Harrop twhar...@gmail.com wrote:
 What a bike! How is the belt drive? Can't believe anyone would look at that 
 and only be able to come up with you should ride clipless...




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It isn't a contest. Enjoy the ride.

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Re: [RBW] Re: BQ to publish study of pedal retention usefulness in Summer issue

[Liesl]

Anne (and Deacon Patrick), I think these kinds of comments and suggestions-- 
even though men get them too -- can be very gendered. I think a good way to 
think of it is: do women repeatedly and persistently receive and experience 
comments on a whole range of mechanical/engineering activities that presume 
ignorance/ineptness, or is it a context-dependent isolated comment? In my 
experience with bicycles, motorcycles, computers, and woodworking to name a 
few, the answer to the first scenario is yes. Like some of you who share your 
expertise on metallurgy or physiology (which I always appreciate), this is a 
professional area of expertise for me.  Lots and lots of really good research 
consistently finds that it is the predictable pattern of expectations, for 
gender in this case, that is deeply connected to disparities. It's complicated. 
If Anne's antennae were up that it was a gendered interaction, I'd go with her 
gut.

And Anne, you continue to be a role model for me as a Rode Warrior Chica! You 
too, Patrick!

Xxoo RCW 

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Re: [RBW] Re: BQ to publish study of pedal retention usefulness in Summer issue

[Mike Schiller]

Anne, sounds like you have found a solution to carrying gear in the rear, 
but a few bag makers can produce small bikepacking seatbags.  I had one 
made by Greg at Boulder Bags that will fit a french fit bike. It fits my 
summer sleeping bag and a bivy/tarp.  
 https://www.flickr.com/photos/37347002@N05/15776183554/in/dateposted-public/ 
https://www.flickr.com/photos/37347002@N05/15776183554/in/dateposted-public/

others...I really like the way clipless pedals work and how I feel more 
part of the bike. It keeps my feet aligned and my pedal stroke smooth. 
Riding flats always feels awkward and only works for short rides.

~mike
Carlsbad Ca.

 







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Re: [RBW] Re: BQ to publish study of pedal retention usefulness in Summer issue

[Anne Paulson]

Revelate makes smaller bikepacking seatbags-- but not small enough to
fit my bike. And in any case, I don't want a tiny little bag, because
I want to carry stuff in it. I'm not really a fan of bikepacking
seatbags: they don't hold very much, they're hard to pack and unpack,
and whatever you want is always on the bottom. A transverse bag like a
Carradice or a saddlesack is so much better from a user interface
perspective. I'm currently reworking the soft transverse bag I made to
fit on my rack.

On Sun, May 17, 2015 at 9:53 AM, Mike Schiller
mikeybi...@rocketmail.com wrote:
 Anne, sounds like you have found a solution to carrying gear in the rear,
 but a few bag makers can produce small bikepacking seatbags.  I had one made
 by Greg at Boulder Bags that will fit a french fit bike. It fits my summer
 sleeping bag and a bivy/tarp.
 https://www.flickr.com/photos/37347002@N05/15776183554/in/dateposted-public/

 others...I really like the way clipless pedals work and how I feel more part
 of the bike. It keeps my feet aligned and my pedal stroke smooth.
 Riding flats always feels awkward and only works for short rides.

 ~mike
 Carlsbad Ca.







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It isn't a contest. Enjoy the ride.

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Re: [RBW] Re: BQ to publish study of pedal retention usefulness in Summer issue

[Andrew Marchant-Shapiro]

As I said in another forum apropos of something else--when people start 
explaining to you why you're doing something wrong and that something has 
no consequences for them one way or the other, you're into the land of 
religion.  Avoid.

On Saturday, May 16, 2015 at 10:09:13 AM UTC-4, Anne Paulson wrote:

 Is this mansplaining, or does this happen to you, too: 

 I was out riding my Surly Krampus on some fire roads that are, to be 
 honest, too steep for me. So I was doing a lot of walking. But that's 
 OK, I don't mind walking. 

 At the top, I came upon three guys who had ridden up the other side, 
 the easy way. We got to chatting, and, as often happened, they asked 
 me about my bike. I have flats on the bike. And then one of the guys 
 took it upon himself to tell me I should start riding clipless. He 
 explained that clipless would make my pedalling stronger, yadda, 
 yadda. 

 I answered politely, but I was furious. It should have been obvious to 
 him that my bike was carefully chosen: it has 3 tires, a belt drive, 
 a dynamo and a Rohloff hub. This is not a bike that one can can buy 
 off the shop floor; it's a custom bike, and one that he should have 
 realized I chose after careful consideration. Why, then, did he assume 
 that a rider who had ridden for 40 years, and who had carefully chosen 
 all the parts of her bike, would be ignorant of clipless pedals, and 
 that somehow flats got on my bike by accident? 

 Don't be a jerk. Don't assume that riders who make different choices 
 than you do don't know what they're doing. And don't assume that women 
 automatically need the benefit of your superior knowledge. 

 On Sat, May 16, 2015 at 5:15 AM, Garth gart...@gmail.com javascript: 
 wrote: 
  
   good read : 
  
 http://www.bikejames.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/Flat-Pedal-Revolution-Manifesto.pdf
  
  
  from here : 
  
 http://www.bikejames.com/strength/the-flat-pedal-revolution-manifesto-how-to-improve-your-riding-with-flat-pedals/
  
  
  
  You don't have to change your mind and thinking  nor can you truly . 
  You can and do however .  . .  Understand :) 
  
  -- 
  You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google 
 Groups 
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 It isn't a contest. Enjoy the ride. 


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Re: [RBW] Re: BQ to publish study of pedal retention usefulness in Summer issue

[Tom Harrop]

What a bike! How is the belt drive? Can't believe anyone would look at that and 
only be able to come up with you should ride clipless...

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Re: [RBW] Re: BQ to publish study of pedal retention usefulness in Summer issue

[Anne Paulson]

Is this mansplaining, or does this happen to you, too:

I was out riding my Surly Krampus on some fire roads that are, to be
honest, too steep for me. So I was doing a lot of walking. But that's
OK, I don't mind walking.

At the top, I came upon three guys who had ridden up the other side,
the easy way. We got to chatting, and, as often happened, they asked
me about my bike. I have flats on the bike. And then one of the guys
took it upon himself to tell me I should start riding clipless. He
explained that clipless would make my pedalling stronger, yadda,
yadda.

I answered politely, but I was furious. It should have been obvious to
him that my bike was carefully chosen: it has 3 tires, a belt drive,
a dynamo and a Rohloff hub. This is not a bike that one can can buy
off the shop floor; it's a custom bike, and one that he should have
realized I chose after careful consideration. Why, then, did he assume
that a rider who had ridden for 40 years, and who had carefully chosen
all the parts of her bike, would be ignorant of clipless pedals, and
that somehow flats got on my bike by accident?

Don't be a jerk. Don't assume that riders who make different choices
than you do don't know what they're doing. And don't assume that women
automatically need the benefit of your superior knowledge.

On Sat, May 16, 2015 at 5:15 AM, Garth garth...@gmail.com wrote:

  good read :
 http://www.bikejames.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/Flat-Pedal-Revolution-Manifesto.pdf

 from here :
 http://www.bikejames.com/strength/the-flat-pedal-revolution-manifesto-how-to-improve-your-riding-with-flat-pedals/


 You don't have to change your mind and thinking  nor can you truly .
 You can and do however .  . .  Understand :)

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It isn't a contest. Enjoy the ride.

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Re: [RBW] Re: BQ to publish study of pedal retention usefulness in Summer issue

[Derek Simmons]

It was NOT because you didn't share genders with the those other riders; it
was because you didn't have the same gear and the same bike
worldview--and they would have gone off on any one riding your rig, not
because the rider was different, but because the ride was.

On Sat, May 16, 2015 at 10:09 AM, Anne Paulson anne.paul...@gmail.com
wrote:

 Is this mansplaining, or does this happen to you, too:

 I was out riding my Surly Krampus on some fire roads that are, to be
 honest, too steep for me. So I was doing a lot of walking. But that's
 OK, I don't mind walking.

 At the top, I came upon three guys who had ridden up the other side,
 the easy way. We got to chatting, and, as often happened, they asked
 me about my bike. I have flats on the bike. And then one of the guys
 took it upon himself to tell me I should start riding clipless. He
 explained that clipless would make my pedalling stronger, yadda,
 yadda.

 I answered politely, but I was furious. It should have been obvious to
 him that my bike was carefully chosen: it has 3 tires, a belt drive,
 a dynamo and a Rohloff hub. This is not a bike that one can can buy
 off the shop floor; it's a custom bike, and one that he should have
 realized I chose after careful consideration. Why, then, did he assume
 that a rider who had ridden for 40 years, and who had carefully chosen
 all the parts of her bike, would be ignorant of clipless pedals, and
 that somehow flats got on my bike by accident?

 Don't be a jerk. Don't assume that riders who make different choices
 than you do don't know what they're doing. And don't assume that women
 automatically need the benefit of your superior knowledge.

 On Sat, May 16, 2015 at 5:15 AM, Garth garth...@gmail.com wrote:
 
   good read :
 
 http://www.bikejames.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/Flat-Pedal-Revolution-Manifesto.pdf
 
  from here :
 
 http://www.bikejames.com/strength/the-flat-pedal-revolution-manifesto-how-to-improve-your-riding-with-flat-pedals/
 
 
  You don't have to change your mind and thinking  nor can you truly .
  You can and do however .  . .  Understand :)
 
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 It isn't a contest. Enjoy the ride.

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-- 

Derek Simmons
retiredinsancleme...@gmail.com

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Re: [RBW] Re: BQ to publish study of pedal retention usefulness in Summer issue

[Eric Norris]

Speaking as a rider who uses clipless pedals and shoes, I certainly appreciate 
this, and I'm sure that riders of flat pedals will extend this courtesy to me. 
Same goes, I would hope, for Lycra vs loose shorts, jersey vs non-jersey, bar 
height, etc., etc.

We all put a lot of thought into where we're going, but that doesn't mean we 
end up in the same place.  

Eric N
www.CampyOnly.com
CampyOnlyGuy.blogspot.com
Twitter: @CampyOnlyGuy

 On May 16, 2015, at 7:09 AM, Anne Paulson anne.paul...@gmail.com wrote:
 
 Don't assume that riders who make different choices
 than you do don't know what they're doing

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