Re: [RE-wrenches] Outback:

[Jeff Clearwater via RE-wrenches]

Here is the official word from the new president of Outback Power just 
now posted on the Outback Forum:



Hello Outback Community,

My name is Marshall Neipert, the new president of Outback Power. As 
some of you may have heard, Outback Power has recently been purchased 
from EnerSys in a private sale. Although the official announcement was 
scheduled for the end of May, the ongoing issues with Optics RE have 
prompted me to address the community earlier.


I want to assure you that despite the transition to new ownership, the 
hosting of Optics RE has not yet moved to Outback Power. It remains 
hosted by EnerSys. I met with the lead tech at EnerSys responsible for 
hosting Optics RE early Monday morning. He assured me that they have 
identified the problem and are working diligently to bring Optics RE 
back online as soon as possible.


I will personally keep you updated on the progress here in this forum, 
and we hope to resolve the issue very soon.


This is not how I envisioned my introduction to the Outback community, 
but under the circumstances, I wanted to assure you that I am 
committed to maintaining open communication and ensuring that Outback 
Power is in good hands.


Please keep an eye out for our upcoming press release, which will 
include exciting hints about the incredible, disruptive products 
Outback Power will be releasing soon.


Sincerely,

Marshall Neipert
President, Outback Power

Hope that helps to clear things up!

Best,


~~~
Jeff Clearwater


linkedin <https://www.linkedin.com/in/jeff-clearwater-0622a312/>
www.villagepowerdesign.com <http://www.villagepowerdesign.com>
cell - 413-559-9763
~~~


Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via RE-wrenches 
<mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org>

May 20, 2024 at 12:00 PM
Interesting that Commerce, TX is 20 miles from Sulphur Springs, TX 
which is the home of Signature Solar.
https://www.outbackpower.com/resources/ ... rt-request 
<https://www.outbackpower.com/resources/technical-support/online-support-request>

Shows:
404 Page Not Found
Component not found

Screenshot 2024-05-20 104538.jpg 
<https://forum.outbackpower.com/download/file.php?id=8844=e2971edb8c3c1f4852bd24fddac80465=view>


The moderators (not Outback employees) on the forum have an 
interesting conspiracy thread going if it is a slow Monday.

https://forum.outbackpower.com/viewtopic.php?t=18704=25
Good info also on using WattPlott earlier in the thread.

*Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar
"we go where powerlines don't"
<http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/>https://offgridsolar1.com/<http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/>
e-mail offgridso...@sti.net <mailto:offgridso...@sti.net>
text 209 813 0060*


On 2024-05-20 8:51 am, William Miller via RE-wrenches wrote:



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William Miller via RE-wrenches <mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org>
May 20, 2024 at 10:51 AM

Friends:

Optics is still down as of Monday morning.  Outback does not answer 
telephone calls.  Options on their automated attendant are Tech 
Support and Sales.  Either selection directs you to sales but no one 
picks up.  I left several messages.


I called Zonna Energy to ask.  They told me Outback had been purchased 
and moved to Texas.  Zonna has stock and is being promised 
manufacturing will be continued.  Zonna is aware Optics and Tech 
Support are unavailable but don’t know when it will return. Zonna says 
Outback has been responding to on-line case requests.  They seem 
confident that the Outback line will continue as before.


That’s what I have learned this morning.

William

Miller Solar

17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422

805-438-5600

www.millersolar.com <http://www.millersolar.com/>

CA Lic. 773985



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[RE-wrenches] EG4 18kPV Correction - does have frequency shift AC Coupling

[Jeff Clearwater via RE-wrenches]

Hi Folks,

Just wanted to make a correction on the EG418kPV of a statement made 
during the AC Coupling thread.


The EG4 18kPV does have frequency shift based AC Coupling.  The 
confusion comes from the fact that like Sol-Ark there is a SOC set-point 
override feature for AC Coupling but the video William referred to 
seemed to imply it is the only control. It is not and EG4 is fixing this 
video.


William Miller wrote:

EG4: I read the manual and it looks like the EG4 works just like the 
Sol-arc:  You program the generator input to actually be an output. The 
EG4 abruptly disconnects that output when battery SOC reaches a 
programmed level-- There is apparently no frequency shift function.


Hope that helps,

Jeff
Clearwater
Village Power Design
www.villagepowerdesign.com <http://www.villagepowerdesign.com>



William Miller via RE-wrenches <mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org>
October 28, 2023 at 10:49 PM

Jay:

I am not sure how it would be possible for a grid-tied inverter to 
operate with any battery inverter if it was not connected to the 
battery inverter AC output.  The grid-tied inverter needs to see 
correct voltage and frequency before it can start up.  How else could 
this work?


I looked up all of the inverters you cited.  In each case it may look 
to you like you are connecting to an input, it is really just 
reprogramming the inverter to turn the generator input into an extra 
output.  All of the manufacturers provide warnings about doing this.  
Here is more information from each of the manufacturers:


Sol-arc: From the manual for the Sol-arc 15K-2P-N: You convert the Gen 
input to an output and make that your connection point.  “/A full AC 
coupled solar system is not recommended as power control and 
monitoring is limited.”/


EG4: I could not find an “ev4” inverter anywhere online.  There is an 
EG4 inverter.  I read the manual and it looks like the EG4 works just 
like the Sol-arc:  You program the generator input to actually be an 
output. The EG4 abruptly disconnects that output when battery SOC 
reaches a programmed level-- There is apparently no frequency shift 
function.  The manual is pretty inadequate on this point but they do 
provide a video 
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vRAq9g34VcI_channel=EG4Electronics>.


Fortress: The same as above is true about using the generator input 
for AC-coupling on the Fortress FP-Envy-12k.  From that manual/:  It 
is forbidden to connect the Generator in Gen Port when AC Coupled. 
/That is because when AC-coupling, the generator input is no longer an 
input.


So while it appears one connects an AC-Coupled inverter to battery 
inverter inputs, it is just a reprogramming of the generator input to 
be an output.  In all cases that I can see there is still no voltage 
control of AC-coupled battery charging.


I am aware that to try and provide some modicum of control over the 
battery charging from AC-coupled sources, a scheme was invented to 
shift the output frequency and taper or shut down AC-coupled power.  
This is a work-around, not a design.  In each and every one of these 
systems it is pretty clear there is little control over battery 
charging voltage. These systems do not support three stage battery 
charging like a DC charge controller can.


When AC-coupled charging is connected to batteries with BMS in certain 
conditions battery voltage spikes can occur.  See section 2.2 of this 
article. <https://www.victronenergy.com/live/ac_coupling:start>


There are limited advantages to AC coupling:

·AC coupling allows reduced wire gauge for long-haul feeders.  This is 
no longer as necessary with new 600 volt input charge controllers.


·AC Coupling allows an easier upgrade path for a customer that has 
grid-tied inverters and wants to add batteries.  I am not sure most 
batteries can survive for long with the crude charging algorithm 
provided, so I would hesitate to recommend this.


In my opinion AC-coupled battery charging with even the newest 
inverters is a crude affair.  I am not a fan.


William

Miller Solar

17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422

805-438-5600

www.millersolar.com <http://www.millersolar.com/>

CA Lic. 773985

*From:*Jay [mailto:jay.pe...@gmail.com <mailto:jay.pe...@gmail.com>]
*Sent:* Saturday, October 28, 2023 1:58 PM
*To:* will...@millersolar.com <mailto:will...@millersolar.com>; 
RE-wrenches

*Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] AC Coupling

I’m going to both agree and disagree

Agree The older inverters ( Schneider, Outback, etc) your drawing is 
correct.


Disagree For many new inverters ( sol ark, ev4, fortress) they bring 
ac coupling into the inverter directly.


Usually on the generator input and not in the backup loads panel.

And I will also disagree about the statement that these inverters are 
not designed for ac coupling.


Agreed that the earlier non rule 21 compliant versions didn’t have any 
internal control and required external relay contro

Re: [RE-wrenches] Nuance ground racking

[Jeff Clearwater via RE-wrenches]

Hi Dave,

Yes we were one of the early adopters and installed a 32 KW Nuance 
system last year in CA.


Mixed results though I think it's a very exciting concept and believe in 
it going forward - they are working out the bugs.


The new version is much better execution as far as the above ground rack 
goes than the first version - now ready for prime time.  It's actually a 
bit overkill now - but very solid.  they fixed the problem of needing 
two hands for the end clips too I believe.


The installation and then pull testing of the anchors can be 
straightforward but there are some things to watch for:


1. The first test tool they rented or sold to do pull testing was
   highly problematic - they've fixed that and have a new tool but it
   is very expensive - Luke (the lead designer) had one at RE+ in Las
   Vegas last month - I highly suggest you speak with him and arrange
   to rent the new tool to do the job - do NOT use the first one
2. They have a new wider anchor that needs to be installed before the
   post platforms - do you have the wide ones or the original ones? 
   The wide ones are recommended in clay or any wet soil - refer to
   Luke on that but with the narrow ones we need 2 or even 3 anchors
   per post in a few wet areas we had.
3. As for your tool questions - we rented a 30 lb impact drill to
   install the rods - though the dewalt one you show may work - I'd go
   heavier if you have hard soils.  That last tool you show may do the
   trick - but for the $100 rental fee it was worth having the big 30
   lb impact drill from the rental shop.

Make sure you have a chart or write in marker on the rack itself to show 
the inspector all of the uplift figures you get.  We were in the 
1200-2000 lb range for most of our anchors - sometimes we needed 2 or 3 
according to their formulae if one anchor doesn't pull enough resistance.


Also make sure the chinese finger cable grips are fully pushed all the 
way down.  We went back after the first wind storm and made sure they 
didn't move.


All has been great with the rack through two winds storms.

After many years of pouring concrete into sonotubes - and even after 
some recent experience with ground screws - I think the ground anchors 
are revolutionary!  Just got to be installed correctly!  I think it's a 
winner going forward and Nuance - though a small company - I think is 
doing a good job making it work.


Hope that helps,

Jeff Clearwater
Village Power Design



Dave Tedeyan via RE-wrenches <mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org>
October 9, 2023 at 10:32 AM
Hi all,

I am going to try out the Nuance OSPREY PowerRack as a ground mount 
option that does not require an excavator. I am wondering two things 
about it:


1. Does anyone have experience with this, and do you like it?

2. What drill do you use for the drive rod?
It seems like the Milwaukee 2" SDS max drill is the standard - 
https://www.milwaukeetool.com/Products/5342-21
I am wondering if it is possible to use a cordless drill though. 
DeWalt makes both a cordless and corded version that claim to have the 
same impact energy as each other, although both are less than the 
Milwaukee Drill. Milwaukee has 19.9 ft-lbs of energy and the DeWalt 
ones have 19.4 Joules, which is 14.3 ft-lbs of energy.
Cordless Kit - 
https://www.dewalt.com/product/dch773y2/60v-max-2-brushless-cordless-sds-max-combination-rotary-hammer-kit
Corded Kit - 
https://www.dewalt.com/product/d25773k/2-sds-max-rotary-hammer


The cordless drill is tempting because I already have a bunch of 
DeWalt equipment, and it would be nice to avoid needing a generator or 
some very long extension cords.


Thanks!
-Dave

--
Logo <https://www.sungineersolar.com/>
Dave Tedeyan, P.E.
Owner | Sungineer Solar
p: he | him | his
a: 1653 Slaterville Rd. | Ithaca, NY 14850
w: www.sungineersolar.com <http://www.sungineersolar.com/>
c: (607) 270-0370



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Re: [RE-wrenches] Service rated tap devices

[Jeff Clearwater via RE-wrenches]

Hi Mac and All,

If you are about to do a Supply-side tap I'd encourage you to look into 
the many advantages of using a Feeder Tap instead - one of which is that 
since it's not on the load side of the Main the equipment need not be 
Service Rated. (not that you might not want it to be anyway.)


Be aware that Supply Side Taps make total sense when you are doing only 
grid-tie as you are always backfeeding and so the current produced by 
the solar is always cancelling the incoming utility current.  However as 
soon as you add battery charging to the equation from a large or 
multiple parallel multi-modal inverter, then you have the very real 
possibility of overloading the Service Entrance Conductors.  Basically 
if you have a 200A residential service whose Service Entrance Conductors 
were based on calcs that had close to maxed out the 160 Amp continuous 
capacity of a 200 A service, then adding 50 Amps of battery charging to 
that can push if over the edge.  Once you have bi-directional flow on 
your supply side tap you are basically adding loads to a service that 
may not be able to handle it in the case of large batteries with large 
charging capability.


Feeder Taps on the other hand force you to do 2 things 1) they limit the 
bi-directional current to your Main Breaker size (200 A) and 2) they 
then re-protect the main load panel downstream of the tap with another 
Feeder Tap Breaker (or larger conductor) according to NEC2020 705.12(B) 
- protecting it from the sum of the 200 A potential from the utililty 
combined with the sell-back current potential of the grid-tie inverters. 
(diagram attached).  With this configuration you can safely backfeed up 
to 160 Amps of solar into a 200 Amp service while still have a large 
battery bank on that system and not worry at all about overloading 
during heavy battery charging.


For new construction or any large install where I need to reconfigure 
the Service Entrance anyway we use Feeder Taps pretty much exclusively 
now - for sure so for anything with batteries.  It does require having a 
stand-alone Main Breaker and to do away with meter-main combo panels. 
But the safety and flexibility of what you now have to work with in 
terms of AC or DC coupled inverters and battery backup - including whole 
home backup are far superior in my book.


And for folks already having a Main Breaker that is tappable after the 
Main but before any busses, the Feeder Tap approach allows you to not 
require shut-down of the service during reconfiguration.


Hope that helps!

Best,

Jeff


Mac Lewis via RE-wrenches 
July 19, 2023 at 10:01 PM
Hello Wrenches,

Is there any tap devices (piercing or other) that are UL Listed for 
tapping on the utility side of a main breaker for a solar 
interconnection?   Our AHJ won't allow anything that isn't service rated.


Thanks in advance!

--



Mac Lewis

*

"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates

*


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Re: [RE-wrenches] Fortress LFPs & ENVY 12kw inverter

[Jeff Clearwater via RE-wrenches]

This is incorrect. Deye does not make the ENVY. 

Contact me off list if you want to discuss 



Sent from my iPhone

> On Jun 1, 2023, at 12:28 PM, Jay via RE-wrenches 
>  wrote:
> 
> 
> Hi Kirk
> 
> It’s the same Chinese company who makes both. Deye 
> 
> If I understand correctly sol ark’s exclusive arrangement with Deye ended. 
> 
> Jay
> 
>>> On Jun 1, 2023, at 10:19 AM, Kirk Herander via RE-wrenches 
>>>  wrote:
>>> 
>> 
>> Hello All,
>> 
>> I am sizing my first Fortress system, 18.5kwh LFPs w/ their new ENVY 
>> inverter. Or would a Sol-Ark be a better fit? I understand both inverters 
>> are somewhat similar.
>> 
>> Any opinions from the real-world of installs would be greatly appreciated. 
>> Thanks.
>> 
>> -- 
>> Kirk Herander / kirkh@vermont.solar
>> Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC
>> Celebrating our 32st Anniversary 1991-2023!!
>> dba Vermont Solar Engineering
>> 802.863.1202
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[RE-wrenches] Need 1 Sanyo (Panasonic) HIP-195BA19 or equiv

[Jeff Clearwater via RE-wrenches]

Hey there Esteemed Wrenches

Anyone have one in New England?  

Anything from. 190-210 watt would do. Physical dimensions have to match. 

Thanks!!! 

Jeff Clearwater
Village Power Design


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Re: [RE-wrenches] NEC 230.46 spliced and tapped conductors

[Jeff Clearwater via RE-wrenches]

We've transitioned from using supply-side taps to using Feeder taps re: 
705.12(B) almost exclusively.


The advantages are numerous - and you just added one more - not needing 
line side listing on your tap hardware.


One of the most dangerous things I see looming in the present code is 
the fact that supply side taps can be safe for backfeeding up to 160 
Amps of PV on a standard 200 Amps service IF you are only grid-tie and 
the current is canceling incoming current.


But as soon as you add hybrid inverters and batteries.  Now you are 
adding significant battery charging amperage  to the NEC 220 load calcs 
that the service entrance connectors are based on..  Given that many 
residences utilized the downsize table for service entrance conductors 
you can quickly end up with a situation where your supply side tap is 
overloading your service entrance conductors if pulling the inverters 
full capability for battery charging and adding that to your normal 
house loads.


Feeder taps take care of this vulnerability in the present code.  By 
having a main 200 Amp breaker on both sides of the tap as per 705.122 B 
- all conductors are protected for both the increased loads due to 
battery charging as well as being able to still use the full 160 Amps 
available for backfeed.  And you don't have to shut down the utility to 
install.


Now you also add not needing to list your taps for supply side and you 
can use the venerable ILscos again . . .


Hope that helps!

Best,

Jeff


Brian Mehalic via RE-wrenches 
February 1, 2023 at 7:18 PM
The requirements for power distribution blocks (PDB) to be marked 
“*suitable for use on the line side*…” when installed connected in 
that manner in wireways (Art. 376) and pull/junction boxes (Art. 314) 
have been in the NEC® for quite a few cycles.


It looks like the additions to 230.46 in the 2020 NEC® (PDBs and 
splices/pressure connectors connected to service conductors must be 
marked “suitable for use…”) coincided with this explicit requirement 
being removed from 314 (though it remains in 376); this makes sense - 
if you’re using a PDB on the line side, well you’re connecting to some 
type of service conductors, so why not cover it in Art. 230 (maybe 
it’ll also be removed from 376 in 2026).


UL 1953 allows for PDBs (UL product code QPQS) to be listed for 
connection on the line side, load side, or both, with those that can 
connect on the line side having the marking mentioned above. Note that 
many have an SCCR of 10 kA unless combined with 
the manufacturer-specified fuse type and size (or smaller), and have 
minimum enclosure sizes that must be followed as well. I have had a 
difficult time finding PDBs that are marked for use on the line side 
while just using the internet (and have been too lazy to pick up the 
phone thus far...plus it doesn't help that all PDBs have a line and 
load side of the device regardless of whether or not they are being 
connected on the line or load side of the service!).


Of course many folks are not going to want to use PDBs due to 
re-routing conductors to them (if even possible) and having to shut 
down the utility supply to install them. Enter pressure connectors, 
and the seemingly industry-fave insulation-piercing style; 
unfortunately I'm not aware of any that are available *yet* with the 
proper listing and markings as required by 230.46.


A colleague that works for a large electrical product manufacturer 
passed this along:


/“No test existed for qualifying single polarity connectors suitable 
for line side use when this was added to the 2020 code with the 
January 1, 2023 date for enforcement.  A strategy and test procedure 
needed to be developed and adopted by the UL CSDS working group.  Not 
a speedy process.  Long story short, after developing a strategy, 
public comment period and voting the *standard wasn’t published until 
August of last year.*  On average the testing requirements take about 
90 days.  To further complicate matters, I was recently told that UL 
is still developing the submittal process.


I know that there are a lot of companies currently testing products 
but until the UL submittal process catches up, no one will be 
official.  The *UL product code is ZMWW*; as companies become 
qualified they should show up in the ZMWW search.  As of today, no one 
is listed.  This leaves power distribution blocks as the lone 
connector product rated for line side use.  I know that Bussmann has 
some PDBs rated for line side use."


So this begs the question of whether or not NEC® 90.4(D) can be 
invoked (new products not yet available at the time the Code is 
adopted...); PDBs already exist, so no dice there, and it is likely 
that since they exist, an argument using 90.4(D) in regards to 
pressure connectors/splices will fall on deaf ears because, well, use 
PDBs."/


Ugh.

Brian Mehalic
NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installation Professional™ R031508-59
National 

Re: [RE-wrenches] Remote battery disconnects

[Jeff Clearwater via RE-wrenches]

Hi Esteemed Wrenchies,

Love this discussion.

It is clear to me after many years of watching this that the industry 
needs to have an Emergency Shutdown standard that includes an emergency 
shutdown of the BMS of every battery as well as the inverter's circuits 
including MPPTs if all all-in-one.


We are pushing now for all battery and inverter manufacturers to include 
this feature in their inverter communications so that if the inverter 
emergency shutdown pins are shorted -every battery shuts down.


This would avoid the ridiculous requirement of every battery cable being 
on a relay/contactor or bringing it to the outside of the house!





Jerry Shafer via RE-wrenches 
January 30, 2023 at 5:08 PM
Wrenches.
You might want to consider turning off the inverter as a solution to 
turning off the batteries, we have this feature as part of our 
installs with outback real simple then no chance of AC anywhere, Not 
going to pop a CC, no chance of run on and it has passed every time. 
Just a thought that's a safe solution. With Outback you just have to 
turn off the master nothing else.

"Fun time in a crazy world"



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Brian Mehalic via RE-wrenches 
January 30, 2023 at 10:54 AM
Hey folks - love the Code, hate it, don’t care about it or follow it: 
it doesn’t matter to me. But if you want to change it you have to 
realize it is a process with rules and procedures, and posting on this 
list that “the NEC” should immediately “issue a memo” to do what you 
want or change what you don’t like has ZERO effect.


Brian

On Jan 30, 2023, at 4:47 AM, Christopher Warfel via RE-wrenches 
 wrote:




I don't think the discussion has forked at all.  A solution to this 
problem, and it is the best solution all things considered, including 
firefighter exposure to 10 ft of conductors that I have a hard time 
imaging them being exposed to,  is for the NEC to issue a memo 
IMMEDIATELY indicating that this section of the code is no longer to 
be considered a requirement and that the next Code cycle will 
eliminate this requirement.


The other solutions discussed would only work for a few 
configurations realistically and would introduce more danger. Chris




On 1/29/2023 2:41 PM, William Miller via RE-wrenches wrote:


James, Brian and others:

Thank you all for the lively discussion.  I am always interested in 
my colleague’s perspectives and this has been illuminating.


It appears to me the discussion has forked:  One topic is how to 
deal with the reality of the new code regarding a very narrow 
scenario: ESS inside of a residence.  The other topic is: has the 
NEC evolved to be overly restrictive without factual basis?


Regarding the first topic, it’s in black and white that we must 
provide battery disconnecting means for energy storage systems 
located in one or two family homes if the battery voltage exceeds 60 
VDC.  There are very few areas that do not adopt the NEC.  If you 
install ESS you will eventually have to deal with this code 
requirement one way or another.


Due to lax enforcement or unfamiliarity on the part of local 
building departments, some of you may be able to skirt this 
requirement.  This is great until something happens.  If your 
non-compliant installation causes a loss, you will end up in the 
defendants chair, not the building inspector.


Here is how I approach these compliance conundrums:  If I could 
argue the code does not apply or there is a good reason to waive the 
requirement; if the building official agrees; if I feel the 
installation is really and truly safe without meeting the 
 requirement—only then could I proceed without the disconnect.  
Otherwise I am going to have to find a way to comply.


As contractors, each of you makes those decisions every day: What is 
safe enough for my clients?  If any of you think you know more than 
the people who write the codes, then install what you can get away 
with and keep your fingers crossed.  I am not willing to live like that.


Regarding the second topic: Are we being picked on by an overly 
scare-mongering NFPA?


What is interesting here is that while most electrical codes are 
trying to prevent house fires, this particular section is trying to 
protect fire fighters after a fire starts (or an earthquake 

Re: [RE-wrenches] Large current battery combiners, UL Listing

[Jeff Clearwater via RE-wrenches]

Actually up to 1500 amps available including 1000 amp version as well. It’s 
hidden in the spec sheets under large fuse holders. 

Sent from my iPhone

> On Dec 2, 2022, at 5:20 PM, Glenn Burt via RE-wrenches 
>  wrote:
> 
> 
> I recently found that Victron makes DC bus bars for battery work with studs 
> already on them. Up to 600A models are available.
> 
> -Glenn
> Sent from my 'smart'phone, so please excuse typos and spelling errors.
> 
> -- Original message--
> From: William Miller via RE-wrenches
> Date: Fri, Dec 2, 2022 3:42 PM
> To: RE-wrenches;
> Cc: William Miller;
> Subject:Re: [RE-wrenches] Large current battery combiners, UL Listing
> 
> Colleagues:
> 
>  
> 
> I am gearing up to tap some more copper.  I assume this is a pertinent 
> subject since bus bars are going to be needed frequently for any storage work.
> 
>  
> 
> I bought the fancy drill press with the tapping function and I am setting it 
> up.  I ran a few tests and the functionality of the tool is pretty amazing.  
> I still need to work on programming it to reverse when needed.  I am close.  
> I also ordered a cross vise for part holding.
> 
>  
> 
> I found this tutorial on line that has provided me with some valuable insight 
> on different styles of taps. 
> 
>  
> 
> William
> 
>  
> 
> Miller Solar
> 
> 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422
> 
> 805-438-5600
> 
> www.millersolar.com
> 
> CA Lic. 773985
> 
>  
> 
>  
> 
> From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On 
> Behalf Of Michael Morningstar via RE-wrenches
> Sent: Monday, September 12, 2022 7:39 PM
> To: RE-wrenches
> Cc: Michael Morningstar
> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Large current battery combiners, UL Listing
> 
>  
> 
> No, I haven't. I'll do some testing tomorrow as we have 60 holes/taps to do 
> in the above mentioned bussing
> 
>  
> 
> On Mon, Sep 12, 2022 at 7:54 AM frenergy via RE-wrenches 
>  wrote:
> 
> Michael,
> 
>  Are you using kerosene as a cutting fluid?  We've had 
> better luck with that in softer than steel metals.
> 
> Bill
> 
> Feather River Solar Electric
> Bill Battagin, Owner
> 4291 Nelson St.
> Taylorsville, CA 95983
> 530.284.7849
> CA Lic 874049
> 
> On 9/11/2022 7:00 PM, Michael Morningstar via RE-wrenches wrote:
> > We've gotten around needing UL listings for one-off in house 
> > fabrication by running things through a licensed engineer. Right now 
> > we are building a gutter bus which has two 1/2" x 4" x 20' copper bars 
> > in a 10" x 10" gutter. We are using 2" x 9" x 9" UDPM plates with 
> > slots routed out for the bars as insulators. This is for 24 Discover 
> > AES and 8 Sol-Ark's. It usually costs about 1K to have an engineer 
> > sign off on our designs.
> >
> > I'd be interested in learning tricks for tapping 3/8" in thick copper. 
> > I've never been able to get consistent results and resort to 
> > thru-bolting.
> 
> 
> -- 
> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
> www.avast.com
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>  
> 
> --
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> Michael Morningstar
>  
> Morningstar Electric
> PO Box 1494
> Mount Shasta, CA 96067
> 530-921-0560
> mjmornings...@gmail.com
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Low voltage lithiums

[Jeff Clearwater via RE-wrenches]

Hi Kris

What voltage do you have your charge settings at?  

I recommend that bulk or absorb voltage for lithium iron phosphate not be set 
above 56 V  - there is no reason for it even though many manufactures suggest 
higher settings.  In cases where total storage is sized generously enough I 
 often use 55.6 or even 55.4 in order to target 95% as full instead of 100% in 
order to extend cycle life.   and for float there’s no reason to ever go over 
54 V and better maybe even to be in the mid-53s. 

See if that helps assuming you had it higher. 

The other thought is you have one bms that is perhaps not protecting overcharge 
 and allowing a temporary spike when the others do limit. 

Hope that helps!  

Best Jeff C. 
Village Power Design



Sent from my iPhone

> On Nov 19, 2022, at 6:32 AM, Kristopher Schmid via RE-wrenches 
>  wrote:
> 
> 
> Greetings all,
> 
> I have seen an issue on two different systems that I am hoping someone can 
> shed some light on for me.  One was a 48 volt pack of 12 volt Battle Bornes 
> and the other was a 24 volt pack of SOKs.  What happens is when reaching the 
> end of the bulk charging stage, the battery voltage spikes and sends the 
> inverter into an overvoltage error.  Can anyone explain what is happening and 
> a solution?
> 
> Thanks,
> Kris
> 
> Shine On!
> 
> Kris Schmid
> Legacy Solar, LLC
> 137 West 1st Avenue
> Luck, WI 54853
> www.legacysolar.com
> 715-653-4295
> NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional
> Licensed Wisconsin Master Electrician
> BSEE
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Re: [RE-wrenches] sol ark reliability question

[Jeff Clearwater via RE-wrenches]

I have a dozen Sol-Arks In the field and all systems have been giving solid 
performance . The MCU board upgrade is standard and super well supported and 
easy and usually done in a preventative context. I consider that a small price 
to pay for all the Sol-Ark can do and the overall performance and what the 
feature set provides. As others have mentioned best tech support around. The 
Time of Use features are brilliant as are the robust MPPTs and the 
programmability in general allows me to optimize hybrid systems like no other 
inverter I know. For us it has replaced the venerable Sunny Island as our go-to 
for large off-grid systems.

Sent from my iPhone

> On Sep 29, 2022, at 11:50 PM, pieter offgridenterprises.org via RE-wrenches 
>  wrote:
> 
> 
> We have dozens of Solark based installs and have had excellent results. All 
> of our system have multiple parallel Solark inverters and have operated with 
> out issues. On the rare occasion that we had commissioning questions our 
> experience with Solark technical support has been outstanding, they have by 
> far the best technical support in the industry. Although Solark helped design 
> the system in question I suspect that there must be some finer points that 
> were not shared with Solark, a load side wiring problem or perhaps an 
> installation error that is causing the repeated failures. I suggest that your 
> friend gets a fresh set of eyes on the system and look for that oversite we 
> have all made and just can’t seem to see it on our own.
> Pieter Huebner
> Off Grid Enterprises
>  
> From: RE-wrenches  On Behalf Of 
> Jerry Shafer via RE-wrenches
> Sent: Thursday, September 29, 2022 10:25 AM
> To: RE-wrenches 
> Cc: Jerry Shafer 
> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] sol ark reliability question
>  
> Wrenches
> Solark issues, I have them living off grid, 3 phase and grid tied back up, 
> both AC and DC coupled with only one intermittent comms issue, does not seem 
> to have any more issues than OB and less than Schnieder, all are connected to 
> Fortress 18.5's or Blue Planet BMS interface seems hardy, 
> Would be good to know what issues he is having to accurately help
> Jerry
>  
> On Thu, Sep 29, 2022 at 7:01 AM jay via RE-wrenches 
>  wrote:
> Hi All,
> 
> I’ve got a question about how many folks are having issues with sol-ark 
> products?
> 
> the reason i ask is that i’ve got a friend, a good competent installer ( well 
> versed in OB, Schneider, magnum)  who’s had continuing nightmares with them.
> 
> he’s got 2 systems each on is a stacked pair of 12kw units, both offgrid.
> 
> each system was designed by sol-ark, meaning the design was approved by them 
> for the loads/solar etc.
> 
> He’s been through 7 MCU swaps. 
> He’s been through a field call required because the over the air firmware 
> update caused the inverters to go into 50hz and for some reason that isn’t 
> fixable via the web.
> He had an inverter that didn’t work correctly out of the box.  They charged 
> him $2500 deposit for a replacement.
> 
> Then they charged him $1500 to fix the inverter he sent back under warranty.  
> Thats right $1500 to fix a warranty which they agreed was a warranty issue.
> Hes not going to pay but this $1500 has been going on a while.  
> 
> The inverter they sent to replace the broken one had a older MCU firmware so 
> wouldn’t stack and it took tech support way to long to figure that out then 
> they had to send him a new MCU…...
> 
> And the list goes on.
> 
> But Im asking, is this poor guy just an anomaly or will anyone else chime in 
> about issues?,
> 
> Because at this point I have no desire to install one given his experiences
> 
> Jay
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> Check out 

Re: [RE-wrenches] EG4

[Jeff Clearwater via RE-wrenches]

Hi All

Yes I’ve been working with EG4s for some time now. I installed 30 (154KWH) on 4 
Sunny Island’s in Feb and that system has been working flawlessly. I’ve also 
done a 4 (20.5KWWH) battery system and a 6 battery (30.7 kWH) on single 
SOl-ARKs.  And I’ve consulted in amd been monitoring some multi Solark systems. 
All work great. 

I visited the factory in Texas for a few days and helped them think about 
designing a rack with built in OCP. I’m friendly with James Showalter the CEO 
and met amd worked with the tech department. . I offered to help rewrite their 
battery manual but then couldn’t find the time though I am providing input. 

Their published recommended settings for Absorb and float are a bit too high. ( 
they just copy from the Chinese manufacturer) but on the SI system it would 
force the BMS into overvoltage cutoff every cycle. No harm is done as the bms 
protects each time but I found that setting absorb to 55.8 (with absorb time 
set to 1-3 hours depending on ratio of PV to KWH) and float to 53.8 works well. 
   I’ve found there is no reason to push LFPs past 14 v (56v) for any reason. 
And no reason to float much past 13.4 (54) LFPs are happiest between 15% and 
95% charge (hence the 80% useable).  Pushing them to 100% every time is non 
productive amd can lesson lifetime. 

Also I came on strong at first insisting like Will Prowess and many others that 
it was essential to keep battery cable lengths the same for all parallels batts 
amd racks. However bench testing and real world testing has shown otherwise 
which can translate to hundreds of dollars in saved copper.  The BMS’s 
compensate for slight resistance differences. I find that individual paralleled 
48V batteries may vary as much as 5-10% in SOC during any one point on a cycle 
but the ones showing lower at the top end of the cycle quickly make up for it 
at the lower end of the cycle. So in any one cycle every battery cycles between 
the same values even if some are pulling the weight at the higher SOCs - the 
others will then catch up due to the BMSs doing their thing. In fact we saw no 
correlation with battery cable length as differences in cell manufacture and 
perhaps temperature outweighed any effect causes by unequal cable lengths. ( 
like 3-4 feet more on 2/0 used for paralleled racks)

I’ve also discovered you can monitor 14, 28, 42 batteries if you’ld like by 
running their battery software on multiple ports connected to multiple screens 
(running the same program on two different ports of a pc)  so up to 14 batts 
per port. I then use remote viewer software to view the dedicated laptop I 
leave at each job. 

If you parallel more than one rack you should be providing OCP between racks 
and the bus bar you provide. I’ve been using Victron fused bus bar systems but 
they are expensive. Hence why I’m working with Signature Solar to provide OCP 
per rack. 

I find James amd the folks at Signature Solar to be great folks with a great 
vision amd devotion to bring the price of solar eat down while providing 
quality. 

That said I have yet to take the leap to the EG4 inverters (or any of the super 
cheap Chinese all-in-ones like MPP) I might try one in an RV but for now am 
sticking with SolArks. That said there are many companies working to bring the 
quality of the DIY all-in-ones up to speed. I’ve also installed StorzPower (Sol 
Arks with flashed ROM) and they are working on their own inverter to meet the 
need as well.  

I’ve been enjoying watching the original Hippy Tech meets Prepper tech meets 
DIY tech. Soon I think the right quality/ price point will be reached amd we’ll 
all be installing much less expensive systems. Sol Ark and SMA take note!  Bit 
it’s up to us installers to make sure that quality is up to snuff. I ding the 
sever rack batteries (EG4, StorzPower,SOK,Jakiper, etc to be quality and 
reliable. They all use the same prismatic cells. Fortress, SimpliPhi, Discover 
take note!  Less than $300/KWH is here on batts. Less than .50/watt or even 
lower on high surge -off grid capable all-in-one inverters is fast on its 
heels! 

Best,

Jeff Clearwater
CA license “#852360
C-46, C-10
Village Power Design
413-559-9763





Sent from my iPhone

> On Jul 28, 2022, at 12:50 PM, Dave Tedeyan via RE-wrenches 
>  wrote:
> 
> 
> Hi all, 
> 
> Does anyone have any experience with EG4 products? I am doing an off-grid 
> consultation for someone who plans on getting EG4 inverter and lithium 
> batteries. The equipment seems so cheap, yet appears to be somewhat legit. 
> They do at least have UL1741 listing. But their 6500w inverter/charger also 
> takes PV power directly and goes for $1250. And their 48V 100AH battery is 
> only $1500. I am curious if anyone has used this stuff and if it is actually 
> legit.
> 
> Cheers,
> Dave
> 
> -- 
>   
> Dave Tedeyan, P.E.
> Owner | Sungineer Solar
> p: he | him | his
> a: 1653 Slaterville R

Re: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark 15k

[Jeff Clearwater via RE-wrenches]

I've been using two gutters with multiple 12KW Sol-Arks Installs - one 
4x4" that I mount immediately under the AC KOs using forward biased 
offset nipples (it's front face is just abouut 1/2" in front of front 
plane of Sol-Arks)  and then a 6x6" set back and down and reached with 
4" nipples extending offset nipples so that I get an AC and DC gutter - 
not sure how others are dealing with need to separate AC and DC.


For the PV  inputs on 12Kws I do two additional 1" KOs - one through the 
vertical mid-plate below the DC terminations and then one down through 
the bottom just to the rear of that plate.  That way using offsets I can 
reach the 6" DC gutter with both the Battery DC and the PV DC in one 
gutter.  I then use an LL to get the AC gutter back to the wall at one 
end.  Can send pics offlist if you are interested.


I spoke to Sol-Ark a few times about the need to give us more room and 
better KOs - putting the DCs in one plane and the ACS in another - 
giving us 2" KOs for battery cables instead of forcing each cable 
through it's own 1" etc.  Unfortunately didn't get that message through 
before they had already designed the 15 KW.


We have also just added KOs to the left side of the unit to bring in the 
PV inputs when that is more convenient.


No better tool than our hydraulic KO punch!

Hope that helps ~

Jeff

~~~
Jeff Clearwater

linkedin <https://www.linkedin.com/in/jeff-clearwater-0622a312/>
www.villagepowerdesign.com <http://www.villagepowerdesign.com>
cell - 413-559-9763
~~~





Michael Morningstar via RE-wrenches 
<mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org>

May 8, 2022 at 11:03 AM
We cut out the bottom plate entirely with a die grinder/cut off wheel 
and then wrap the raw edge with vinyl "edge wrap" and set the 
inverters on top of 10 x 10 x whatever gutters. The layout and sizes 
of Sol-Arks knock-outs is screwy. Just need a bonding jumper between 
both enclosures. This is common practice in the industrial world when 
dealing with large VFDs and such.





--

Michael Morningstar


Morningstar Electric

PO Box 1494

Mount Shasta, CA 96067

530-921-0560

mjmornings...@gmail.com <mailto:mjmornings...@gmail.com>




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Jay via RE-wrenches <mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org>
May 8, 2022 at 5:57 AM
Hi Chris,

Can’t you increase the size of the KO’s?

Jay



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Chris Sparadeo via RE-wrenches <mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org>
May 7, 2022 at 6:16 PM
Jason,

I think I agree with your interpretation of the wiring diagram. My 
hesitation is, with a 1-1/4” KO for AC inputs, only choice seems to be 
a >24” stub conduit for 2/0 conductores to a fused disconnect. Not a 
fun pipe to bend…and extra BOS seems like a less than ideal solution.


Is this your conclusion as well?

--
Chris Sparadeo


C_802-369-4458
H_802-728-3059


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Re: [RE-wrenches] Ideas and racking systems for "stowing" ground mount PV array during snowy winter?

[Jeff Clearwater via RE-wrenches]

Coming back to this Blake - seems to me you need a platform type rack 
that has a tilt-up set of legs.


The Nuance Osprey is such a rack - though I think they only go up to 35º 
but I think it could be easily adapted.  They use Earth Anchors but can 
also be mounted to sonotubes or even ground screws.


It's beefy strong - no aluminum - just might work with heavy snow.

https://nuanceenergy.com/solar-products/osprey-powerplatform

It's possible having two in portrait makes for too high a vertical but 
perhaps using 60 cell modules instead of 72 might make it workable.


Just a thought - hope it helps!

Best,

~~~
Jeff Clearwater

linkedin <https://www.linkedin.com/in/jeff-clearwater-0622a312/>
www.villagepowerdesign.com <http://www.villagepowerdesign.com>
cell - 413-559-9763
~~~







Blake Gleason via RE-wrenches <mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org>
March 26, 2022 at 8:39 AM
Hi all,

I think there's a lot of experience on this list with PV in snowy regions.

I'm wondering if anyone has ideas and/or specific hardware/racking 
systems to allow for easy "stowing" (in vertical or near-vertical 
position) or "seasonal removal" of the ground mount PV modules for the 
winter (snow) season?  Or ideas for a completely different approach to 
solving the challenge I'm facing?


I'm planning a new off-grid system in the Sierra (around 6000') for a 
small commercial community center facility.  The facility is 
accessible and in use only during the summer months.  So, I want to 
optimize production for the summer, and also avoid having the array 
destroyed by the heavy Sierra snow during the winter.


To further paint the picture, here are some more details and constraints:

- System size: 23kW (likely 48 Silfab 490 mods)
- Must be ground mount (beautiful very tall trees completely 
surrounding all roof options)

- Must be relatively low profile, visually.  Pole mount not an option
- Ideally one clean rectangular array 4x12 mods (13' x 90') or two 4x6 
arrays (13' x 45')

- Array tilt: 10-15 deg (summer use only, must be low-profile)

There is a caretaker who has a seasonal crew, and could be trained to 
"stow" the array each season as long as that process is relatively 
straightforward.


At one end of the spectrum, it could be as simple as disconnecting and 
un-installing all of the modules to store them in a stack underneath 
the nearby deck for the winter.  I'd like to think there might be a 
more "elegant" solution (and less labor intensive, and less wear and 
tear on the modules over the years).  I wondered if there's a clever 
way to "drop" the modules to a near-vertical orientation so they could 
remain in place during the winter (some kind of hinge at the top and 
release at the bottom).  I guess this might require individual rows of 
modules instead of one large array.


(As a bonus, I'd like to keep about four mods (out of the 48) 
operational through the winter for battery maintenance and a few 
incidental loads.  These could be vertically mounted on the south side 
of one of the buildings, above the typical snow drift level, for example.)


Thanks in advance for any suggestions, ideas, things you've tried that 
haven't worked, etc!!


Best,
Blake

--

Blake Gleason, PE | Employee Owner
Director of Innovation and Technical Excellence
O: 510-845-2997 x128
C: 510-867-5878

1035 Folger Ave.
Berkeley, CA 94710
www.sunlightandpower.com <http://www.sunlightandpower.com>
License #326203



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Re: [RE-wrenches] Equipment for 400 Amp Service Supply Side & 2 200s

[Jeff Clearwater via RE-wrenches]

Thanks August yes but am I missing where you put the third tap for the PV 
backfeed?  I need 2 x 200 amp mains plus a 200 amp pv backfees point and the 
meter needs to have test bypass links. 

Sent from my iPhone

> On Mar 29, 2022, at 10:34 AM, August Goers  wrote:
> 
> 
> Hi Jeff -
> 
> There are several 400 A (or 320 A continuous) meter/mains on the market with 
> 2 x 200 A breakers. In the Bay Area these are frequently referred to as 
> "California 400" panels, even though they are installed with a self contained 
> 320 A rated utility meter, rather than a 400 A CT-meter. They are great for 
> systems with large energy storage, because one 200 A breaker can feed 
> non-backup loads and the other 200 A breaker can feed backup loads and solar. 
>  Anyway, here's one such example:
> 
> https://www.milbankworks.com/products/catalog/M400-UG-APS-LC
> 
> Best,
> 
> August
> Luminalt
> 
> 
>> On Tue, Mar 29, 2022 at 10:15 AM Jeff Clearwater via RE-wrenches 
>>  wrote:
>> Good Day Wrenches,
>> 
>> Does anyone know of a 400 Amp Meter/Main that can accomplish the following?
>> 
>> 1)  Provide 2 x 200 Main Breakers for Loads
>> 2) Provide an easy supply side tap point for 160 Amps of Grid-tie Solar (so 
>> basically a 200 Amp backfeed)
>> 
>> I'm considering using an Eaton 324 N  (Eaton B-Line 324 N 400A, 320 A cont. 
>> 4P, 4 Jaw, Meter Socket W Link Bypass Facilities) but I'm not sure I can 
>> double lug it and then also tap off of one of the 200 Amp lines with another 
>> tap (using Ilsco IPC-250-4/0 splice connectors).
>> 
>> Thanks!
>> 
>> Jeff
>> 
>> 
>> ~~~
>> Jeff Clearwater
>> linkedin
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> linkedin 
>> www.villagelab.net
>> www.villagepowerdesign.com
>> cell - 413-559-9763
>> ~~~
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Re: [RE-wrenches] ​Equipment for 400 Amp Service Supply Side & 200A PV

[Jeff Clearwater via RE-wrenches]

Thanks Vincent- thanks I’ve used this panel in the past but do you you know if 
“Manual Bypass” is the same as test link bypass - suitable  for PGE/Western 
Utilities? 

Sent from my iPhone

> On Mar 29, 2022, at 10:38 AM, Vincent Jolissaint via RE-wrenches 
>  wrote:
> 
> 
> Hi Jeff,
> 
> I prefer this panel for this need. it has a dedicated left side for (2) @100A 
> breakers max or (1) @ 200A max PV backfeed.
> 
> https://assets.new.siemens.com/siemens/assets/api/uuid:4e2c50f4-f20a-481c-8cb4-bd817cd7cb04/sie-fl-400srmetercombo.pdf
> 
> In addition, it has all the features of a typical 2x200A service panel.
> 
> 
> With Regard,
> Vince Jolissaint
> Cobalt Power Systems Inc. | Director of CAD Services
> 2557 Wyandotte St.  | Mountain View CA  94043
> Office: 650.938.9574 | E-Mail vince...@cobaltpower.com
> 
>> 
>> From: Jeff Clearwater 
>> To: RE-wrenches 
>> Subject: [RE-wrenches] Equipment for 400 Amp Service Supply Side & 2
>> 200s
>> Message-ID:
>> <84bbb4d9-73ca-f7a3-2d2c-952b35413...@villagepowerdesign.com>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; Format="flowed"
>> 
>> Good Day Wrenches,
>> 
>> Does anyone know of a 400 Amp Meter/Main that can accomplish the following?
>> 
>> 1)? Provide 2 x 200 Main Breakers for Loads
>> 2) Provide an easy supply side tap point for 160 Amps of Grid-tie Solar 
>> (so basically a 200 Amp backfeed)
>> 
>> I'm considering using an Eaton 324 N 
>> <https://www.rexelusa.com/p/525405/eaton-b-line/400a-4p-4-jaw-meter-socket/782051622102/324-n>?
>>  
>> (Eaton B-Line 324 N 400A, 320 A cont. 4P, 4 Jaw, Meter Socket W Link 
>> Bypass Facilities) but I'm not sure I can double lug it and then also 
>> tap off of one of the 200 Amp lines with another tap (using Ilsco 
>> IPC-250-4/0 
>> <https://www.ilsco.com/Ilsco/ccrz__ProductDetails?sku=IPC-250-4%2F0-ILSM-ILS=en_US>
>>  
>> splice connectors).
>> 
>> Thanks!
>> 
>> Jeff
>> 
>> 
>> ~~~
>> Jeff Clearwater
>> linkedin <https://www.linkedin.com/in/jeff-clearwater-0622a312/>
>> 
>> 
>> linkedin <https://www.linkedin.com/in/jeff-clearwater-0622a312/>
>> www.villagelab.net <http://www.villagelab.net>
>> www.villagepowerdesign.com <http://www.villagepowerdesign.com>
>> cell - 413-559-9763**
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Ideas and racking systems for "stowing" ground mount PV array during snowy winter?

[Jeff Clearwater via RE-wrenches]

Hi Blake,

I'm curious why the assumption that the snow will destroy the array - 
how about 3 rails instead of 2 under the modules?



Blake Gleason via RE-wrenches 
March 26, 2022 at 8:39 AM
Hi all,

I think there's a lot of experience on this list with PV in snowy regions.

I'm wondering if anyone has ideas and/or specific hardware/racking 
systems to allow for easy "stowing" (in vertical or near-vertical 
position) or "seasonal removal" of the ground mount PV modules for the 
winter (snow) season?  Or ideas for a completely different approach to 
solving the challenge I'm facing?


I'm planning a new off-grid system in the Sierra (around 6000') for a 
small commercial community center facility.  The facility is 
accessible and in use only during the summer months.  So, I want to 
optimize production for the summer, and also avoid having the array 
destroyed by the heavy Sierra snow during the winter.


To further paint the picture, here are some more details and constraints:

- System size: 23kW (likely 48 Silfab 490 mods)
- Must be ground mount (beautiful very tall trees completely 
surrounding all roof options)

- Must be relatively low profile, visually.  Pole mount not an option
- Ideally one clean rectangular array 4x12 mods (13' x 90') or two 4x6 
arrays (13' x 45')

- Array tilt: 10-15 deg (summer use only, must be low-profile)

There is a caretaker who has a seasonal crew, and could be trained to 
"stow" the array each season as long as that process is relatively 
straightforward.


At one end of the spectrum, it could be as simple as disconnecting and 
un-installing all of the modules to store them in a stack underneath 
the nearby deck for the winter.  I'd like to think there might be a 
more "elegant" solution (and less labor intensive, and less wear and 
tear on the modules over the years).  I wondered if there's a clever 
way to "drop" the modules to a near-vertical orientation so they could 
remain in place during the winter (some kind of hinge at the top and 
release at the bottom).  I guess this might require individual rows of 
modules instead of one large array.


(As a bonus, I'd like to keep about four mods (out of the 48) 
operational through the winter for battery maintenance and a few 
incidental loads.  These could be vertically mounted on the south side 
of one of the buildings, above the typical snow drift level, for example.)


Thanks in advance for any suggestions, ideas, things you've tried that 
haven't worked, etc!!


Best,
Blake

--

Blake Gleason, PE | Employee Owner
Director of Innovation and Technical Excellence
O: 510-845-2997 x128
C: 510-867-5878

1035 Folger Ave.
Berkeley, CA 94710
www.sunlightandpower.com 
License #326203



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Re: [RE-wrenches] ] Tesla Anywhere

[Jeff Clearwater]

Yea Tesla blew it big time with their approach with distributors and 
installers.  Many of us reached out to them early on only to be met with 
silence and then to find out that some fly-by-night or new start-up 
received a territory covering big areas including several experienced 
installers that were ignored.


And then the stories starting rolling in of shoddy installs - bad 
service - long waits - no supply.  What they could have had if they just 
partnered with the existing solar industry instead of the arrogant 
attitude they knew better . . .


Then it became clear perhaps we were better off!  Their early embrace of 
Li-NMC turned out to be not a great option with LFPs coming along - and 
although we were hopeful they might get solar shingles right - they 
never overcame the inherent challenges (all those plugs! and no 
cooling!)  - we saw it in the 2000s with (what was it "American Solar 
Shingles" or some such name).


I love that Elon stepped up the game for folks to embrace EVs and Solar 
- but the execution - super dissapointing and maybe even damaging in the 
long run for solar.


Here's kudos to all high integrity solar providers out there that have 
served the industry for years!  We commend you intent Elon - but next 
time you might ask those that have been doing it for years to partner 
with you!


best,

Jeff



Chris Schaefer 
February 15, 2022 at 4:00 PM
Gotta say the same thing here in NY. I've applied and sent credentials 
3x now with little to no response over the last 2 years. The local 
Tesla car dealer wants us onboard as they are getting a lot of 
complaints from their car clients when it comes to their charger 
installation's crew. I'm told they are just local electricians. After 
all this I gotta tell ya I'm not exactly excited to get on board if we 
don't have the support. Afterall haven't we already lived through this 
with our current inverter factory support teams to some extent?


Christopher



--

Chris Schaefer’s

/Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870
//5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424
//www.solarandwindfx.com  ~ E-mail: 
ch...@solarandwindfx.com /


/
/

Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, 
"democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are 
willing to work and give to those who would not."




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Kirk Herander 
February 15, 2022 at 3:51 PM
That's the problem. They don't want to talk to you, unless maybe 
you're interested in buying solar shingles and storage as a package 
deal. I've applied for certification several times over the last 2 
yrs, and no response. And present dealers tell me their dealer network 
is falling apart. No support whatsoever.


Old Elon should concentrate more on his terrestrial interests instead 
of spaceman ambitions.




--

*Kirk Herander / **kirkh@vermont.solar *

*Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC*

*/Celebrating our 31^st  Anniversary 1991-2022!!/*

*www.vermont.solar* 



dba Vermont Solar Engineering

802.863.1202



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Dana Orzel 
February 15, 2022 at 3:43 PM

Very good! I was just about to ask the same question. I have 1 new 
construction request for a “Tesla” system. Between Snow country [Where 
I think the roof tile is not appropriate & from what I hear not 
available 

Re: [RE-wrenches] Rapid Shutdown for Off-grid systems

[Jeff Clearwater]

Hey Brad and All,

We've been switching (pun intended:)) from SQ D HU361s to IMO DC 
Isolators 
with good results.  They make 2,3,4,5,6,8 pole units and that lends 
itself well to actually switching both poles at reasonable cost.


As for the RSS discussion. I'm hearing some others imply that if "any" 
DC circuits from a ground mount are on or in a building that the whole 
array needs RSS?  I don't believe that's what the code intends at all 
and is certainly uncalled for from any safety standpoint.


We've had many inspectors okay a simple PV Disconnect on the DC side of 
a ground mount - either on the house or even at the array - as the RSS 
for DC lines if they do then enter a building - so simply putting an RSS 
sticker on the DC PV disconnect before it enters the building - end of 
story.  That's our common practice on ground mounts.


Hope that helps!

Best,

Jeff





Bradley Bassett 
February 1, 2022 at 2:14 PM
"A switch, outside of the building, opening the PV circuit to the 
power electronics, and functioning as the pv system disco and the 
rapid shutdown initiation device, should be all that is required."


That is what I have found most inspectors will accept, but not all. A 
strict reading of the code does come to the same conclusion that 
William comes to, and some inspectors will require that. The code is 
not very specific on where the PV system disconnect should go. It 
seems to be mostly accepted to be on the PV side of the charge 
control, but when I read the code strictly it seems to me it should be 
on the battery side of the charge control since it is only a PV 
device. Fortunately the PV side is more accepted because that makes 
things much easier.


What I'm still having trouble with is the requirement for 
breaking both pos and neg legs in the PV system disconnect unless 
solidly grounded which most systems are not (690.13(E)). I see that 
most installers do not break both poles, but only the positive leg, 
which is of course easier and less expensive. I've quoted the use of 
dual pole breakers when possible, but OutBack does not really call for 
that always, and if you ask about their 2 pole 300V breakers they (and 
Carling) don't say they can be used that way. And if you do, you 
have to run the wires in opposite directions for polarity. I've asked 
for clarification but have not received it yet. Then there are the 
high voltage charge controls like Schneider, where often one uses the 
SqD HU361, which can be wired in various ways to meet the 600V 
requirement. It can be wired one pole for up to 18A Isc for PV, or up 
to 30A if two poles in series, or one pos and one neg pole in the 
circuit. The Schneider RS Disco does break both poles, one of the few 
devices that make it clear. I'm curious what others are doing.


Brad



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Brian Mehalic 
February 1, 2022 at 11:23 AM
Sorry, forgot to state my previous comment was in regards to a 
ground-mount.


Brian



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William Miller 
February 1, 2022 at 10:24 AM

Ray:

Thanks for that input.  I was hoping I was wrong.  I looked for that 
discussion in the archives but could not find it.


William

Miller Solar

17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422

805-438-5600

www.millersolar.com 

CA Lic. 773985

*From:*RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org 
] *On Behalf Of *Ray

*Sent:* Tuesday, February 1, 2022 10:11 AM
*To:* re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org 


*Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] 

Re: [RE-wrenches] Well siphon?

[Jeff Clearwater]

Great Explanation Jay. One can just feel those molecules being pulled apart to 
gas!  One could however recover the energy needed for pumping over the hump 
with a small turbine on the down side but probably not worth the expense and 
complexity. 

Sent from my iPhone

> On Jan 28, 2022, at 9:46 AM, Jay  wrote:
> 
> 
> Hi Bill
> 
> Ok I’ll trybto explain 1 more time. 
> Let’s take your example. 
> Lake level at 100’, top of dam at 143’ output of the pipe at 0’
> The pipe is sch 80 steel,totally  filled with water, no air. There is a check 
> valve at the lake side which will allow lake water in but not out, with the 
> pipe intake below water level, and there is a valve at the other end. 
> 
> When you open the valve at the bottom, that 143’ of water will start to move 
> out of the bottom of the pipe. It will be pulling up on the 43’ from the top 
> of dam down to the water. 33’ down from the dam top on the lake side it will 
> turn to vacuum leaving 10’ of water in the pipe. The other 33’ above it will 
> siphon over the top of the dam and slowly make its way down the pipe. 
> 
> It cannot pull more than 33’ at sea level. Just the way it is. 
> 
> You can find good YouTube videos of water “boiling”at room temperature under 
> a vacuum, and that’s what happens in that pipe. That boiling means that the 
> water is no longer a liquid but a gas. 
> 
> Jay
> 
> 
> 
>>> On Jan 27, 2022, at 8:09 PM, frenergy  wrote:
>>> 
>> 
>> This is good, I'm not yet willing to accept egg-defeat.  In my previously 
>> described scenario, the atmospheric pressure does not play a role because 
>> I'm not evacuating the air-filled pipe with the suction side of a pump which 
>> would rely on atmospheric pressure to fill the pipe with water as the vacuum 
>> increases inside the pipe.
>> 
>> In my scenario the pipe going over the ridge is filled with 
>> water from the discharge side of a pump, it could be filled from anywhere in 
>> the pipe but there must be an exhaust only air vent at the highest point of 
>> the pipe.  Both ends of the pipe must not allow any air in and one end of 
>> the pipe must be lower than the other.  Because we are not dealing with a 
>> mere 1 atmosphere of pressure (or vacuum in this case), the "pull" of the 
>> water on the lower side of this pipe will cause tremendous crushing pressure 
>> on the outside of this pipe that's drawing out of the well.  I think the 
>> physics is right but I'm not sure how practical it is.  The pipe has to be 
>> absolutely air-tight, completely full of water and extremely strong.
>> 
>> Now I'm really sticking my neck out.  There's gotta be an old 
>> physics teacher out therehelp!
>> 
>> Bill
>> 
>>> On 1/27/2022 6:14 PM, Jay wrote:
>>> Hi Bill 
>>> 
>>> Sorry about the egg
>>> 
>>> Here is some actual info to confirm what I and others have said. 
>>> 
>>> You cannot vacuum water any more than 33’ at sea level. 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> https://www.nwcg.gov/course/ffm/squirt-water/35-drafting-guidelines
>>> 
>>> Jay
>>> 
 On Jan 27, 2022, at 5:34 PM, frenergy  wrote:
 
 
 OK, I'll gamble some egg on my face.  In this case though, you would not 
 be "pulling a vacuum" with air (a gas) involved.  If you can fill the 
 entire pipe with a liquid (water), the water that's down slope of the 
 water in the well on the other side of the ridge it would pull the water 
 out of the well and up over that ridge as long as the pipe exit is below 
 the dynamic water level in the well and the pipe's intake.  
 
 The caveat: the pipe would have to be filled by pumping out of 
 the well (one time to set-up this siphon) and the exit end of the pipe 
 would have to be closed to be able to fill the pipe completely, which 
 would require an air vent (exhaust vent only, not intake) at the highest 
 point of the pipe going over the ridge.  A valve would also be required at 
 the exit end for flow control and prevent the siphon from drawing the well 
 dry.  The pipe would have to rated to handle the crushing force of the 
 vacuum being pulled on the uphill section of pipe after it left the well.  
 There could absolutely not be any leaks in the pipe.
 
 I hope my seat-of-the-pants physics is working today.
 
 Bill
 
 Feather River Solar Electric
 Bill Battagin, Owner
 4291 Nelson St.
 Taylorsville, CA 95983
 530.284.7849
 CA Lic 874049
 
 
 
 
 On 1/27/2022 2:28 PM, Darryl Thayer wrote:
> Yes, but if the rise is greater than about 30 feet (25 feet even) the 
> water head is greater than atmospheric and the water will draw a vacuum 
> in the pipe.  These numbers depend upon the location (elevation) and 
> temperature of the water.  
> for example at 15,000 feet the atmosphere is about 1/2 or sea level, 
> meaning the water column will break at 15 feet of head.  (from my 

Re: [RE-wrenches] 24v to 48v upgrade help

[Jeff Clearwater]

HI Aaron,

You could stack multiple 24 Volt inverters to achieve more KW and there 
are plenty of 24 V Lithium battery options. (like Signature Solar, 
Simpliphi, Discover etc.)


If you do go for converting to 48 Volt then depending on how many amps 
of 24V loads you have (how many is it?) - you might find this helpful:


https://www.victronenergy.com/dc-dc-converters

We've had very good luck with Victron DC-DC converters - rock solid and 
controllable by Victron Blue Tooth App.  Not cheap.


Hope that helps,

Best,

Jeff C.


Aaron Mandelkorn 
January 26, 2022 at 4:16 PM
Wrenches,

I have a customer with a very old 24v off grid pv system.  He wants to 
upgrade his array, inverter and battery bank.  There are no options 
for inverter/chargers over 4000 watts in 24v dc.  The same goes for 
lithium iron batteries.  Everything (of higher wattage and battery 
capacity) seems to be in 48v only now.  If going to 48 volts how do I 
acomodate the few but important 24v DC loads in the home.  Is a 48v to 
24v step down converter the best option?  What do you think? Any help 
would be appreciated.  Thank you.


Aaron Mandelkorn
President / Founder
Renewable Energy Outfitters
www.reosolar.com 
Off Grid Depot
www.offgridnow.com 
970-596-3744


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Re: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark AC Coupling Issues

[Jeff Clearwater]

Yes what Jay said - need a block diagram with available power flows on 
this one.  If you've been working with Sol-Ark you probably covered the 
basics but just for the rest of us to be assured:


I assume:

1)  you are using the Radian only as an AC Grid-Tie inverter - no 
batteries on it?
2) that you are aware that the AC Coupled wattage plus the DC wattage on 
the Sol-Ark's MPPTs must be within the total allowed for solar generation
3) that you have the AC Coupled output of the Radian connected to the 
GEN breaker of the Sol-Ark
4) that you have the software set for the GEN breaker to be AC Coupled 
and have checked all other software items with Sol-Ark needed for AC 
coupling


just as a starting base for us to understand what may be happening.

And some of the techs at Sol-Ark are in training - have you talked to 
the tech lead,  Dustin Douglas?  He's the official Sol-Ark rep on this 
list but I just saw him at InterSolar and he said he has been just too 
busy to chime in here much.  I'm scheduled to speak with him soon - I'll 
see if he can find the time if he hasn't already talked to you.



Best,

Jeff



Vince McClellan 
January 19, 2022 at 3:15 PM
Is anyone on the list familiar with AC coupling Sol-Ark inverters?
We haven't been able to AC couple an existing Outback Radian system to 
a new system that we built with 3, Sol-Ark 12K inverters and 3, Blue 
Ion batteries. Each time we have tested the system the Sol-Ark 
inverters accept the power from the Radian inverter until we turn on 
the DC power from the new solar array to the Sol-Ark inverters. As 
soon as there is significant DC power coming from the solar array the 
Sol-Ark inverters freq-watt turns on for a brief second and 
disconnects the Radian inverter even when the Blue Ion batteries are 
below the programmed state of charge threshold. If we don't turn on 
the DC power from the new solar array the Radian will connect and stay 
connected.


We have been working with Sol-Ark for several months now to get this 
system to accept the incoming power from the Radian without freq-watt 
kicking in on the Sol-Ark inverters and disconnecting the Radian 
inverter. Sol-Ark has sent two software revisions to the Sol-Ark 
inverters and we are still experiencing the same problem.


Can anyone think of what we might be missing and where to direct our 
troubleshooting efforts next?


Thanks,

Vince McClellan
Energy Design
NABCEP PV Installation Professional
p. (541) 485-8122   f. (541) 338-8202 



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Re: [RE-wrenches] Conext XW Pro Compatible Generators?

[Jeff Clearwater]

Wrenches,

Thanks All for all the great feedback - I appreciate it.   Yes I've used 
Kohler 14RES so the 12 could be a great option  - it is in the same 
price range.  Availability might be another factor! Gens are in short 
supply it seems right now.


I'm still curious what the smallest 1800 rpm diesel option is.  The 
price flattens out for diesel as you grow bigger but wondering what the 
entry price is.


Thanks again,

Jeff


Eric Smiley <mailto:e...@vecoop.ca>
January 18, 2022 at 7:42 AM
Usually I wouldn't chime in with a single example but we have a single 
customer with a Kohler 12RES on propane and a Connext XW+.

It's worked well for three years and was easy  to connect.

Eric Smiley
Project Manager, North Island

E: e...@vecoop.ca <mailto:e...@vecoop.ca>
T:  1-888-386-0116 ext 702 (toll free)
C:  250-703-6004
W: viridianenergy.ca <http://viridianenergy.ca>



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Will White <mailto:w...@solarenergy.org>
January 18, 2022 at 4:42 AM
Jeff,

I don't know how much pricing has changed lately but the Kohler 12RES 
was going for around $5,000 with a two-wire start built-in. That's 
only $500 more than the smaller generator with a lot more capacity. I 
don't think they make it in gasoline so you'd have to use propane.


Thanks,
Will

Jeff Clearwater <mailto:je...@villagepowerdesign.com>
January 17, 2022 at 9:08 PM
Hi Ray,

Yes indeed I'm used to 10-30 KW gensets as I mostly do larger systems 
so I've fallen out of experience with smaller sets. I've been specing 
mostly diesels.  Used to install Onan propane sets years ago but those 
can be pricey too.


This is a customer that has been buying $1000 gensets and starting 
manually and abusing their lead-acids so I've been after them to get 
an decent auto-start genset - so even the $4K+ for the Honda (plus the 
$400 for the remote start module) is a steep change for them.  I 
installed the $350 Conext AGS module 2 years ago when I built the 
system but they never got a decent genny that it could trigger.


So looking for less than $6K options for them in autostart.

It's a very modest load/system - a 6 KW inverter with 32 KWhrs (16 
usable) of Surrettes.  3 KW  of solar all mounted in/on a dual axle 
cargo trailer - they use only fridges and lights but they have a damn 
sewage pump - which is why we upgraded from a 4 KW Conext to a 6 KW.


So yes very open to the low end of the larger sets - any small 8-12 KW 
diesels our there for reasonable price?  Or propane units that will 
last?  I'd love to go 1800 rpm for them but within the budget - not 
sure it's possible?  and of course that is decent wave-form to make 
the Conext XW Pro happy.


Thanks for redirecting - a welcome input for sure!

Best,

Jeff





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Ray <mailto:r...@solarray.com>
January 17, 2022 at 8:11 PM

I have a question: why so small a generator?  I've always regretted 
under sizing the genny for battery charging.  Larger gensets are not 
as fuel hungry as you might think.  I was surprised recently when I 
did some calcs, and found that a larger genset would actually get 
slightly better fuel consumption at the proposed load.


Plus the larger gensets are usually built to last longer than the 
portable stuff.


Ray Walters
Remote Solar
303 505-8760
On 1/17/22 5:33 PM, Jeff Clearwater wrote:


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Re: [RE-wrenches] Conext XW Pro Compatible Generators?

[Jeff Clearwater]

Hi Ray,

Yes indeed I'm used to 10-30 KW gensets as I mostly do larger systems so 
I've fallen out of experience with smaller sets. I've been specing 
mostly diesels.  Used to install Onan propane sets years ago but those 
can be pricey too.


This is a customer that has been buying $1000 gensets and starting 
manually and abusing their lead-acids so I've been after them to get an 
decent auto-start genset - so even the $4K+ for the Honda (plus the $400 
for the remote start module) is a steep change for them.  I installed 
the $350 Conext AGS module 2 years ago when I built the system but they 
never got a decent genny that it could trigger.


So looking for less than $6K options for them in autostart.

It's a very modest load/system - a 6 KW inverter with 32 KWhrs (16 
usable) of Surrettes.  3 KW  of solar all mounted in/on a dual axle 
cargo trailer - they use only fridges and lights but they have a damn 
sewage pump - which is why we upgraded from a 4 KW Conext to a 6 KW.


So yes very open to the low end of the larger sets - any small 8-12 KW 
diesels our there for reasonable price?  Or propane units that will 
last?  I'd love to go 1800 rpm for them but within the budget - not sure 
it's possible?  and of course that is decent wave-form to make the 
Conext XW Pro happy.


Thanks for redirecting - a welcome input for sure!

Best,

Jeff



Ray <mailto:r...@solarray.com>
January 17, 2022 at 8:11 PM

I have a question: why so small a generator?  I've always regretted 
under sizing the genny for battery charging.  Larger gensets are not 
as fuel hungry as you might think.  I was surprised recently when I 
did some calcs, and found that a larger genset would actually get 
slightly better fuel consumption at the proposed load.


Plus the larger gensets are usually built to last longer than the 
portable stuff.


Ray Walters
Remote Solar
303 505-8760
On 1/17/22 5:33 PM, Jeff Clearwater wrote:


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Jeff Clearwater <mailto:je...@villagepowerdesign.com>
January 17, 2022 at 4:33 PM
Hello Again All,

Or I'd consider suggesting propane to the customer as well.  Any 
experience with know compatibles in propane?


txnks

jc




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Jeff Clearwater <mailto:je...@villagepowerdesign.com>
January 17, 2022 at 1:29 PM
Thanks All,

Aren't there any 5-8 KW gas gennys out there already set up for 2-wire 
start?  We do that all the time with bigger units.


Thanks again!

Best,

jc




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Jay <mailto:jay.pe...@gmail.com>
January 17, 2022 at 1:19 PM
Hi Jeff

The generator is not set up for 2 wire remote.

The two options that I know of are the one I sent you which converts 
the remote to 2 wire.
Disadvantage of this one is that it will only attempt the start 1 
time. But that generator on gasoline seems to start every time first 
time.  Propane conversion not.


Or the factory unit which like this one.

https://www.electricgeneratorsdirect.com/Honda-32380-Z37-820ZA/p65440.html?gclid=CjwKCAiAxJSPBhAoEiwAeO_fP1IhOE5lCjwjD81BLmbvGVudBjZaJN_siF2UiT4xbNe9uh

Re: [RE-wrenches] Conext XW Pro Compatible Generators?

[Jeff Clearwater]

Hello Again All,

Or I'd consider suggesting propane to the customer as well.  Any 
experience with know compatibles in propane?


txnks

jc


Jeff Clearwater <mailto:je...@villagepowerdesign.com>
January 17, 2022 at 1:29 PM
Thanks All,

Aren't there any 5-8 KW gas gennys out there already set up for 2-wire 
start?  We do that all the time with bigger units.


Thanks again!

Best,

jc




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Jay <mailto:jay.pe...@gmail.com>
January 17, 2022 at 1:19 PM
Hi Jeff

The generator is not set up for 2 wire remote.

The two options that I know of are the one I sent you which converts 
the remote to 2 wire.
Disadvantage of this one is that it will only attempt the start 1 
time. But that generator on gasoline seems to start every time first 
time.  Propane conversion not.


Or the factory unit which like this one.

https://www.electricgeneratorsdirect.com/Honda-32380-Z37-820ZA/p65440.html?gclid=CjwKCAiAxJSPBhAoEiwAeO_fP1IhOE5lCjwjD81BLmbvGVudBjZaJN_siF2UiT4xbNe9uhGxusSlWxoCEKsQAvD_BwE

The advantage of this one is that it follows the inverter ags start 
programming so you get 3 attempts if memory serves.

But you’ve got to figure out the correct ags protocol on the Xw.

Hope this helps

Jay



Jeff Clearwater <mailto:je...@villagepowerdesign.com>
January 17, 2022 at 12:38 PM
Thanks Michael and Jay!

If the generator is a 2-wire start why is there the need for 
additional remote start relays?  Does the Honda not come fully 
equipped?  And if not is there a generator that does?


Thanks,

Jeff




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Re: [RE-wrenches] Conext XW Pro Compatible Generators?

[Jeff Clearwater]

Thanks All,

Aren't there any 5-8 KW gas gennys out there already set up for 2-wire 
start?  We do that all the time with bigger units.


Thanks again!

Best,

jc


Jay <mailto:jay.pe...@gmail.com>
January 17, 2022 at 1:19 PM
Hi Jeff

The generator is not set up for 2 wire remote.

The two options that I know of are the one I sent you which converts 
the remote to 2 wire.
Disadvantage of this one is that it will only attempt the start 1 
time. But that generator on gasoline seems to start every time first 
time.  Propane conversion not.


Or the factory unit which like this one.

https://www.electricgeneratorsdirect.com/Honda-32380-Z37-820ZA/p65440.html?gclid=CjwKCAiAxJSPBhAoEiwAeO_fP1IhOE5lCjwjD81BLmbvGVudBjZaJN_siF2UiT4xbNe9uhGxusSlWxoCEKsQAvD_BwE

The advantage of this one is that it follows the inverter ags start 
programming so you get 3 attempts if memory serves.

But you’ve got to figure out the correct ags protocol on the Xw.

Hope this helps

Jay



Jeff Clearwater <mailto:je...@villagepowerdesign.com>
January 17, 2022 at 12:38 PM
Thanks Michael and Jay!

If the generator is a 2-wire start why is there the need for 
additional remote start relays?  Does the Honda not come fully 
equipped?  And if not is there a generator that does?


Thanks,

Jeff




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[RE-wrenches] Conext XW Pro Compatible Generators?

[Jeff Clearwater]

Good Day Wrenches,

So can anyone steer me to generator models in the 5-7 KW range (gas) 
that are known compatible with the Conext XW Pro and the Conext AGS module?


Thanks!

Jeff

~~~
Jeff Clearwater

www.villagepowerdesign.com <http://www.villagepowerdesign.com>
cell - 413-559-9763



Dave Tedeyan <mailto:d...@sungineersolar.com>
January 11, 2022 at 11:34 AM
Hi all,

Does anyone have a source where you can get a replacement fan for the 
Conext XW+ inverters? I just talked to Schneider and since this 
inverter is just out of warranty, they will not send another one, nor 
sell me one.


I also checked the archives because I thought that someone asked about 
this before, but that was for the charge controller. A couple people 
said they had suppliers for the fans, but none specifically were 
mentioned on that thread.


I appreciate the help!
Cheers,
Dave

--
Logo <https://www.sungineersolar.com/>
Dave Tedeyan, P.E.
Owner | Sungineer Solar
p: he | him | his
a: 1653 Slaterville Rd. | Ithaca, NY 14850
w: www.sungineersolar.com <http://www.sungineersolar.com/>
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Re: [RE-wrenches] BP HI / Namaka with Sol-ark inverters

[Jeff Clearwater]

Hi Jay and All,

So I jumped the gun a bit on the auto-former - My experience thus far is 
mostly with multiple inverter systems (3 systems of 2 & 3 units) and so 
I have not had any single leg issues on those systems.  And the few 
single inverter systems I do have out there (2 systems) I haven't had 
any problem - so I was just suggesting that could be a way to deal with 
it if you were having  that issue - I should be more careful to speak 
only from experience!


As for field repair I do know that some early Sol-Arks had issues with 
sharing the load while paralleling and there is an MC board ("Master 
Control" I assume)  that they offer for those instances that is field 
installable.  I have not had that problem.


I've had customer calls twice on those 5 systems in a years time - both 
times a simple reboot solved the problem and other issues I've had were 
simply my learning curve with settings as they are a lot of options 
-especially if using the Time-of-use interface.   The one system I have 
that is a single inverter that is in GTBB mode (on grid as sell-back 99% 
of time with battery there for outages) has not burped once in a year's 
time so that's simple.  The Off-Grid systems work like a charm though 
high loads did cause a reboot once.


It's true what  Eric says that there are settings on the PowerView 
interface that are not covered in the Manual - the control software is 
more powerful than most inverters but it does take some time to get to 
the bottom of all of them and it seams even Sol-Ark tech support is 
learning.  The control is highly customizable and that has come in super 
handy with a customer that is on-grid but really likes to be off grid as 
much as possible - so during the seasons in New England she changes her 
Time-of-Use settings to match the seasons and that has worked out super 
well (it's just changing the SOC levels that we let the batteries come 
to at different times of day)  - can't imagine doing what she's doing 
with any other inverter.


In talking with tech support one tech did mention that sometimes some 
data gets into the "wrong ledger" or some such and that's why a simple 
reboot works and they say they are refining that in subsequent 
firmware.  A deeper level reboot is sometimes required he says by doing 
a factory reset rather than just a restart but then you have to reset 
settings but he says that is a rare need.  They have had multiple (like 
4 or 5?) firmware upgrades over the year but none seemed to be that 
critical.


So that's my fuller report.  I consider the Sol-Ark my replacement for 
the Sunny Island (that sadly simply isn't evolving with the times except 
perhaps the European model)  - Robust - stackable and much easier to 
install with DC coupling option and included switchgear.  Yes you do 
need to learn the software interface but I find it clearly no more 
complicated than say the Outback or Schneider XW interface once you are 
use to it and once you do you have much more control and easy remote 
programming both on laptops and phones and the customer has the same 
access if you want to programmables.


I've never been put on hold for Sol Ark tech support and they spend as 
much time as it needs while looking at the same data you are looking at 
through PowerView - super helpful.


Hope that helps!

Best,

Jeff






Jay <mailto:jay.pe...@gmail.com>
January 7, 2022 at 5:55 AM
Hi Jeff

Thanks for the info.

As to out of balance 120v.

How are you configuring for that?  Just putting potential problem 
loads on the xformer or ?


Which transformer are you using with a 9kw inverter?  Most I’ve seen 
are only 5-6kw.


And as many people are using the sol ark, a question about repairing. 
Is it possible to repair in the field?  Has anyone actually done it? 
 If not field repairable, how quickly/easily is the repair/warranty 
process working


Thanks
Jay



Jeff Clearwater <mailto:je...@villagepowerdesign.com>
January 6, 2022 at 8:04 PM
We just ordered a 3 Sol-Ark system with 16 Storz Power batteries I'll 
let you know this Spring once I have it up and running.  Yes they are 
closed loop will be UL9540 soon.


We have several Sol-Arks in the field - all working great - yes a few 
minor issues that have required software updates - but tech support is 
great and they push the updates for me.  I love the monitoring and 
ability to remote program every parameter.  Conversion efficiency in 
all modes is high (though slightly under what they claim but still great)


Surge is fine per leg with multiple inverters or a balancing 
transformer.  Gen support could use an upgrade  for sure but they are 
working on it.


The  Time-of -use  features and interface we love as you can really 
fine tune daily cycles - optimizing solar and battery and grid and 
generator inputs - Especially great for grid-tie with strong off-grid 
capability as opposed to most  lightweight GTTB systems.  In pure 
Off-grid I find them robust

Re: [RE-wrenches] BP HI / Namaka with Sol-ark inverters

[Jeff Clearwater]

We just ordered a 3 Sol-Ark system with 16 Storz Power batteries I'll 
let you know this Spring once I have it up and running.  Yes they are 
closed loop will be UL9540 soon.


We have several Sol-Arks in the field - all working great - yes a few 
minor issues that have required software updates - but tech support is 
great and they push the updates for me.  I love the monitoring and 
ability to remote program every parameter.  Conversion efficiency in all 
modes is high (though slightly under what they claim but still great)


Surge is fine per leg with multiple inverters or a balancing 
transformer.  Gen support could use an upgrade  for sure but they are 
working on it.


The  Time-of -use  features and interface we love as you can really fine 
tune daily cycles - optimizing solar and battery and grid and generator 
inputs - Especially great for grid-tie with strong off-grid capability 
as opposed to most  lightweight GTTB systems.  In pure Off-grid I find 
them robust and reliable so far.


Enjoy!

Jeff Clearwater
Village Power Design




Jason Szumlanski <mailto:ja...@floridasolardesigngroup.com>
January 6, 2022 at 5:52 PM
Is anyone installing Storz? From what I understand, they have closed 
loop comms with Sol-Ark and a very close working relationship between 
manufacturers. I believe all customer support for Storz supplied 
Sol-Arks goes through Storz. They have a special Sol-Ark firmware that 
they maintain.


Maybe users have a better experience with this collaboration.

Jason Szumlanski
Florida Solar Design Group



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Mac Lewis <mailto:maclew...@gmail.com>
January 6, 2022 at 5:09 PM
Eric and Wrenches,

We have come to the same conclusion.  Sol-Ark isn't ready for 
prime-time off-grid.  Too many glitches...


One serious off-grid disadvantage with Sol-Ark is idle consumption.  
It really is much, much higher than older style inverters so it 
needs to be factored into the load analysis.  The spec sheet is not 
accurate.  The firmware is all over the place, many glitches and issues.


I do admire that they are diving into the battery communication arena 
but voltage control works quite well.  If a system can't effectively 
keep power on, do we care if the charging algorithm  is slightly more 
efficient?


My big question, that I've never really understood is why is it so 
hard to standardize battery communication?  Isn't CanBus, Modbus and 
RS-485 a standard?  Doesn't that mean that it should be easy 
and structured?  I must not really get it...









--



Mac Lewis

*

"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates

*


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Christopher Warfel <mailto:cwar...@entech-engineering.com>
January 6, 2022 at 11:59 AM

Eric, Have you had the same issues with SolArk when multi-mode?  We 
are getting ready to put one in.  Chris


On 1/6/2022 1:25 PM, Eric Smiley wrote:


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Eric Smiley <mailto:e...@vecoop.ca>
January 6, 2022 at 10:25 AM
Kirk
We tried using SolArk for off- grid applications but stopped for 
several reasons:

- sur

Re: [RE-wrenches] BP HI / Namaka with Sol-ark inverters

[Jeff Clearwater]

Hey Chris and All,

So my understanding of open versus closed loop and my experience is that closed 
loop is ideal and will be increasingly required by UL9540 or utilities that 
require that. However many inverters don’t use SOC from the BMS to determine 
charge states anyway and they will be relying on voltage and since it’s easy to 
regulate LFP’s with voltage, open loop works fine for most inverter- LFP pairs 
as long as you have your settings correct.  We have several systems in the 
field open loop and I have one in my van-   All work just fine. 

Sent from my iPhone

> On Jan 5, 2022, at 8:52 AM, Chris Schaefer  wrote:
> 
> 
> Correct me if I'm wrong but my research seems to lean towards the prefered 
> method to implement Lithium batteries with an inverter system is via closed 
> loop communication, over open loop? Currently looking into installing a BI 
> and Fortress system of similar size side by side here at our Design and 
> Training center to see how they perform with a lot of data collection 
> equipment.
> 
> Christopher
> 
>> On Wed, Jan 5, 2022 at 11:37 AM Mac Lewis  wrote:
>> Hi Kirk,
>> 
>> Yes, Sol-Ark and Blue Ion communicate fine through the Namaka Gateway.  You 
>> do need to make sure that the firmware is up to date on the Sol-Ark because 
>> there are older versions out there that don't work.  Purchase their 
>> auto-updater dongle if you aren't going to have internet on the site and 
>> preload the new firmware on the dongle.
>> 
>> I also have quite a few Radians out there working fine with the Blue Ion 
>> just using voltage and programming the Flexnet per Blue Ion.  The SOC on the 
>> flexnet seems to track really well if the batteries are filling up often.  
>> 
>> My only serious gripe with Sol-Ark is generator interaction.  It is very 
>> rigid and glitchy compared to Outback and strange to program.  This will get 
>> better though.  I do think its easy to 
>> 
>> Good Luck
>>  
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>> On Wed, Jan 5, 2022 at 7:45 AM Kirk Herander  wrote:
>>> Hi All,
>>> 
>>> I am considering changing the inverters on several Blue ion HI LFP storage 
>>> systems I'm installing this Spring from Outback Radians to Sol-Ark. I have 
>>> no experience w/ Sol-Ark, but it seems more advanced than the Radian. I'm 
>>> wondering if Sol-Ark and the BI Namaka gateway/monitor can directly 
>>> interface as Namaka can with some inverter brands. And I'd be interested in 
>>> hearing of any experiences you may have as to how nicely these different 
>>> components play together. Thanks.
>>> 
>>> -- 
>>> Kirk Herander / kirkh@vermont.solar
>>> Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC
>>> Celebrating our 31st Anniversary 1991-2022!!
>>> www.vermont.solar
>>> dba Vermont Solar Engineering
>>> 802.863.1202
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>> 
>> 
>> -- 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Mac Lewis
>> 
>> "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates
>> 
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> -- 
> Chris Schaefer’s
> 
> Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 
> 5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424
> www.solarandwindfx.com ~ E-mail: ch...@solarandwindfx.com
> 
> 
> 
> Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, 
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Re: [RE-wrenches] ballasted ground mounts residential scale

[Jeff Clearwater]

That's really valuable real world experience Benn - Thank you!

I did intuitively notice in watching the assembly videos that that after 
the initial tensioning of the anchor cable that there was only minimal 
attention (and hardware) devoted to keeping that cable under tension. 
Could be as simple as a ratcheting device to periodically tighten up 
after install perhaps?  Doesn't seem like that would be too hard to 
retrofit.


I do see you are in the plains up there in Canada - so wondering perhaps 
the winds are much higher - still it shouldn't move a cm after install!


Thanks again - very valuable feedback.  Sorry you had hassles!

Best,

Jeff



Benn Kilburn <mailto:b...@skyfireenergy.com>
January 3, 2022 at 7:52 AM
Sorry, I sent that last email too soon by accident….

Yes, I’ve installed a few of these Nuance Osprey racks…. With much 
less than satisfactory experiences.


The rack tables themselves go together fairly well, however the cable 
anchor system, while seemingly slick, left much to be desired in my 
experiences.
Some anchors would not come close to the required load test pull-out 
values, requiring extra anchors to be needed, which is fine, until all 
the anchor holes have been used. The anchors don’t “securely” hold the 
rack down, meaning it leaves a bit of room for movement, so under high 
wind, and over time it can wiggle and loosen the anchors leaving more 
and more room for movement each time. That said, they do recommend 
rechecking the anchors after some time, but this can be an issue for 
some sites.
I have gone back to check a site and a rack (with other racks on 
either side) had shifted forward about 25cm, seemingly due to high 
wind. It drove the front anchor base plates into the ground and caused 
some damage to the rack structure which had a design flaw that I 
believe was corrected.


They recommend re checking the pull-out load testing of the anchors 
after a year or so but I have yet to be given a solution for 
rechecking the front anchors without removing modules, which are in 
the way of doing the pull out test.


It’s been over a year and a half since the last one I worked on so 
it’s not so fresh in my mind but I do know there were several other 
issues with the rack/rail assembly and mounting modules, issues with 
the mod mud/end clamps.


I’m not completely against giving it another try, but not without 
reviewing the notes and photos from the last ones and confirming the 
issues have been addressed.


Regards,
Benn


--
Benn Kilburn
SkyFire Energy
780-906-7807
Benn Kilburn <mailto:b...@skyfireenergy.com>
January 3, 2022 at 7:22 AM
I’ve installed a few of these Nuance Osprey racks..~85kw, ~50kw



--
Benn Kilburn
SkyFire Energy
780-906-7807
Jeff Clearwater <mailto:je...@villagepowerdesign.com>
December 30, 2021 at 1:30 PM
Wow cool product Nick!  Anyone have actual experience?

I've been thinking that the concrete beam systems (above grade 
pre-engineered rectangular blocks like solarmounts.com) really could 
be used for any ground mount rack system (Unirac, IronRidge, 
SnapNRack, SolarMounts, ReadyRack, etc.)  in other words many ground 
mount systems could be bolted to an above grade concrete beam - would 
just need a sign off on uplift by an engineer at the worst or just 
apply existing engineering models.  Many manufacturers already off 
that option and probably provide the engineering.


This might expand small system options for those manufacturers only 
offering ballast systems to large system buyers.


Which makes me think that If I tried a Nuance system and the soil 
didn't work out for the cable pull you could then just bolt them down 
to a concrete beam system as a plan b.


Thoughts?  Experience anyone?

best,

jc






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Jeff Clearwater <mailto:je...@villagelab.net>
December 30, 2021 at 1:01 PM
Wow cool product Nick!  Anyone have actual experience?

I've been thinking that the concrete beam systems (above grade 
pre-engineered rectangular blocks like solarmounts.com) really could 
be used for any ground mount rack system (Unirac, IronRidge, 
SnapNRack, SolarMounts, ReadyRack, etc.)  in other words many ground 
mount systems could be bolted to an above grade concrete beam - would 
just need a sign off on uplift by an engineer at the worst or just 
apply existing engineering mod

Re: [RE-wrenches] ballasted ground mounts residential scale

[Jeff Clearwater]

I mispoke:

"This might expand small system options for those manufacturers only 
offering ballast systems to large system buyers."


What I meant to say is utilizing concrete grade beams as foundations for 
existing residential and small commerical ground mount solutions could 
expand the options that we installers have for ground mount solutions 
since most offerings for pre-engineered solutions are intended for the 
utility scale market.


jc

Jeff Clearwater <mailto:je...@villagepowerdesign.com>
December 30, 2021 at 1:30 PM
Wow cool product Nick!  Anyone have actual experience?

I've been thinking that the concrete beam systems (above grade 
pre-engineered rectangular blocks like solarmounts.com) really could 
be used for any ground mount rack system (Unirac, IronRidge, 
SnapNRack, SolarMounts, ReadyRack, etc.)  in other words many ground 
mount systems could be bolted to an above grade concrete beam - would 
just need a sign off on uplift by an engineer at the worst or just 
apply existing engineering models.  Many manufacturers already off 
that option and probably provide the engineering.


This might expand small system options for those manufacturers only 
offering ballast systems to large system buyers.


Which makes me think that If I tried a Nuance system and the soil 
didn't work out for the cable pull you could then just bolt them down 
to a concrete beam system as a plan b.


Thoughts?  Experience anyone?

best,

jc






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Jeff Clearwater <mailto:je...@villagelab.net>
December 30, 2021 at 1:01 PM
Wow cool product Nick!  Anyone have actual experience?

I've been thinking that the concrete beam systems (above grade 
pre-engineered rectangular blocks like solarmounts.com) really could 
be used for any ground mount rack system (Unirac, IronRidge, 
SnapNRack, SolarMounts, ReadyRack, etc.)  in other words many ground 
mount systems could be bolted to an above grade concrete beam - would 
just need a sign off on uplift by an engineer at the worst or just 
apply existing engineering models.  Many manufacturers already off 
that option and probably provide the engineering.


This might expand small system options for those manufacturers only 
offering ballast systems to large system buyers.


Which makes me think that If I tried a Nuance system and the soil 
didn't work out for the cable pull you could then just bolt them down 
to a concrete beam system as a plan b.


Thoughts?  Experience anyone?

best,

jc




Nick A Lucchese <mailto:luccheseso...@me.com>
December 30, 2021 at 11:38 AM
Greetings Mac,

I recently have been investigating the use of Nuance’s Osprey 
<https://nuanceenergy.com/> product solution. Doesn’t necessarily fall 
under the ballasted category and since you’re trying to avoid the heat 
pump lines it may not fit your strategy either but I really like the 
option of getting away from pouring concrete. The anchors are set 
40-65” deep. For smaller projects it seems like the cost may be 
somewhat prohibitive due to shipping logistics but appears like they 
price out affordably once you purchase a bit of specialized equipment 
and get around the freight costs.


That ReadyRack geo-ballast looks quite cool too Jeff, thanks for the 
link on that.


Best of luck, Nick





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Mac Lewis <mailto:maclew...@gmail.com>
December 28, 2021 at 3:31 PM
Hello Wrenches,

Can anyone recommend a ballasted ground mount solution that is offered 
on a residential scale? Below 10kW typically.


Thanks in advance!

--



Mac Lewis

*

"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates

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Re: [RE-wrenches] ballasted ground mounts residential scale

[Jeff Clearwater]

Wow cool product Nick!  Anyone have actual experience?

I've been thinking that the concrete beam systems (above grade 
pre-engineered rectangular blocks like solarmounts.com) really could be 
used for any ground mount rack system (Unirac, IronRidge, SnapNRack, 
SolarMounts, ReadyRack, etc.)  in other words many ground mount systems 
could be bolted to an above grade concrete beam - would just need a sign 
off on uplift by an engineer at the worst or just apply existing 
engineering models.  Many manufacturers already off that option and 
probably provide the engineering.


This might expand small system options for those manufacturers only 
offering ballast systems to large system buyers.


Which makes me think that If I tried a Nuance system and the soil didn't 
work out for the cable pull you could then just bolt them down to a 
concrete beam system as a plan b.


Thoughts?  Experience anyone?

best,

jc




Nick A Lucchese 
December 30, 2021 at 11:38 AM
Greetings Mac,

I recently have been investigating the use of Nuance’s Osprey 
 product solution. Doesn’t necessarily fall 
under the ballasted category and since you’re trying to avoid the heat 
pump lines it may not fit your strategy either but I really like the 
option of getting away from pouring concrete. The anchors are set 
40-65” deep. For smaller projects it seems like the cost may be 
somewhat prohibitive due to shipping logistics but appears like they 
price out affordably once you purchase a bit of specialized equipment 
and get around the freight costs.


That ReadyRack geo-ballast looks quite cool too Jeff, thanks for the 
link on that.


Best of luck, Nick





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Mac Lewis 
December 28, 2021 at 3:31 PM
Hello Wrenches,

Can anyone recommend a ballasted ground mount solution that is offered 
on a residential scale? Below 10kW typically.


Thanks in advance!

--



Mac Lewis

*

"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates

*


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Re: [RE-wrenches] ballasted ground mounts residential scale

[Jeff Clearwater]

Two that I've looked at but never used - I like the use of rock on the 
second one.  We quoted it for a job at one point and the price was quite 
reasonable.


https://solarmounts.com/ballasted-ground-mount/

https://www.readyracksolar.com/

Hope that helps!

Jeff


Mac Lewis 
December 28, 2021 at 3:31 PM
Hello Wrenches,

Can anyone recommend a ballasted ground mount solution that is offered 
on a residential scale? Below 10kW typically.


Thanks in advance!

--



Mac Lewis

*

"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates

*


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Re: [RE-wrenches] Storz Power Batteries

[Jeff Clearwater]

Oh and I should have mentioned Humless - they have a CEC approved server 
rack battery that they are now integrating UL 9540 on their own 
re-branded Inverter.  Cheaper than Storz Power but the inverter is 
probably a gro-watt equivalent.   So I'm sticking with Storz Power now 
so I can utilize UL 9540 on Sol-Arks.

Jeff Clearwater <mailto:je...@villagepowerdesign.com>
December 23, 2021 at 11:06 AM
Hi Chris,

My only experience thus far is ordering and getting tech support on a 
biggish system's worth.  3 Sol Arks on 16Storzpower 5.12 KW batteries.


In working with Everett and his staff I'm very impressed.  They are 
the first to get UL 9540 on a server rack battery with the Sol-Ark.  
They flash the Sol-Ark to synchronize with their batts.    I really 
like server rack batteries (StorzPower, Signature Solar, Jakiper, 
etc.)  The 5 KWH increments are nice - easy to rack. Great price - 
quality on tear-downs and experience in the field is thus far great. 
Same pouch cells many of the big names are using  - proven BMSs.


The only limitation at this point is comm limitations.  Everett says 
Sol-Arks are presently limited to reading 7 of those type batteries 
per inverter.  The batteries have a 4 place dip switch arrangement for 
ID and thus limited to 16 IDs (14 or 15 in practice depending on the 
battery as the Inverter uses a channel).


I'm solving that on one project I'm doing with Signature Solar EG4s 
(open loop on Sunny Islands) by simply having a dedicated laptop 
running the battery BMS software monitoring app on a PC.  That way I 
can see SOC of every battery (and voltage of every cell and do the 
setting feedback loop in my brain rather than closed loop - pretty 
easy to see what's going on that way by tracking both what ennexOS is 
telling me about the Sunny Islands and the BMS's are saying.  But 
that's for open loop  in the Bahamas.


In CA or anyplace else that cares about UL 9540 (which will soon be 
everywhere perhaps) the integrated closed loop is the way to go so 
loving that Storz Power stepped up to offer that.


I'll let you know once I get them installed and up and running.

Best,

Jeff


~~~






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Chris Sparadeo <mailto:sparadeo.ch...@gmail.com>
December 23, 2021 at 7:18 AM
Hi all,

Just wondering if anyone out there has had experience with Storz Power 
batteries? Specifically in applications with closed loop comms and Sol 
Ark.


Kindly,

Chris
--
Chris Sparadeo


C_802-369-4458
H_802-728-3059


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Re: [RE-wrenches] Storz Power Batteries

[Jeff Clearwater]

Hi Chris,

My only experience thus far is ordering and getting tech support on a 
biggish system's worth.  3 Sol Arks on 16Storzpower 5.12 KW batteries.


In working with Everett and his staff I'm very impressed.  They are the 
first to get UL 9540 on a server rack battery with the Sol-Ark.  They 
flash the Sol-Ark to synchronize with their batts.    I really like 
server rack batteries (StorzPower, Signature Solar, Jakiper, etc.)  The 
5 KWH increments are nice - easy to rack. Great price - quality on 
tear-downs and experience in the field is thus far great. Same pouch 
cells many of the big names are using  - proven BMSs.


The only limitation at this point is comm limitations.  Everett says 
Sol-Arks are presently limited to reading 7 of those type batteries per 
inverter.  The batteries have a 4 place dip switch arrangement for ID 
and thus limited to 16 IDs (14 or 15 in practice depending on the 
battery as the Inverter uses a channel).


I'm solving that on one project I'm doing with Signature Solar EG4s 
(open loop on Sunny Islands) by simply having a dedicated laptop running 
the battery BMS software monitoring app on a PC.  That way I can see SOC 
of every battery (and voltage of every cell and do the setting feedback 
loop in my brain rather than closed loop - pretty easy to see what's 
going on that way by tracking both what ennexOS is telling me about the 
Sunny Islands and the BMS's are saying.  But that's for open loop  in 
the Bahamas.


In CA or anyplace else that cares about UL 9540 (which will soon be 
everywhere perhaps) the integrated closed loop is the way to go so 
loving that Storz Power stepped up to offer that.


I'll let you know once I get them installed and up and running.

Best,

Jeff


~~~
Jeff Clearwater

linkedin <https://www.linkedin.com/in/jeff-clearwater-0622a312/>
www.villagepowerdesign.com <http://www.villagepowerdesign.com>
cell - 413-559-9763
~~~




Chris Sparadeo <mailto:sparadeo.ch...@gmail.com>
December 23, 2021 at 7:18 AM
Hi all,

Just wondering if anyone out there has had experience with Storz Power 
batteries? Specifically in applications with closed loop comms and Sol 
Ark.


Kindly,

Chris
--
Chris Sparadeo


C_802-369-4458
H_802-728-3059


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Re: [RE-wrenches] How Best to Load Test 2 V Cells

[Jeff Clearwater]

Yes good thought Chris -I doubt if there is an IR tester anywhere on the 
island - but when I go I will for sure look at that - thanks for that.


How would one measure battery resistance with voltage present? I guess 
with a known voltage applied and current held constant one could 
calculate?  but then how do you know you are measuring resistance vs 
storing energy?   I don't think that's possible - others?


jc


Chris Worcester <mailto:ch...@solarwindworks.com>
July 14, 2021 at 2:14 PM
Has an infra-red thermometer been used on every battery's terminals to 
check for resistance? I recall, although this might be my own 
thoughts, that internal resistance of each cell can be measured with 
an ohm meter...




Chris Worcester
ch...@solarwindworks.com
530-448-9692

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy s9.


 Original message 
From: Jeff Clearwater 
Date: 7/14/21 1:42 PM (GMT-08:00)
To: RE-wrenches 
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] How Best to Load Test 2 V Cells

Hey Jay,

Yes the Sunny island Master of this Quad SI AC-coupled off-grid system 
has been giving automatic Eq and Full charge charges perodically as 
appropriate to this 48 V EnergyCell RE2700 pack.


We are getting whole pack volt drops way before we should at 600 well- 
maintained cycles.  When we do whole pack testing - when the voltage 
drops off there are 5 of the 24 cells lagging - their voltage drops 
faster than the rest - but they operate well between 50%-100% - all 
busbars have been triple checked for corrosion and tourque.


So it looks like they just aged prematurely - so I'm in the process of 
collating data from EnnexOS to get exact numbers on how they've been 
treated.  But even with a few hard cycles they should held up better 
than they have.  So perhaps a warranty claim - I've gone through 
charge settings with SMA etc.  I did have the AHrs programmed slightly 
below rated AHrs due to confusion of whether the SI uses the 20 hr or 
10 hr rate (in Europe they use 10 but apparently - unbeknowst to me - 
the US SI uses the 20 Hr - I swear SMA tech support years ago told me 
10 hours)  but now they are claiming that might be the culprit - I 
have a hard time believing that setting the Ahour rating in the SI to 
2100 instead of 2288 as rated would lead to pack failure - but they 
are claiming that could have contributed.


Thoughts?

Best,

Jeff




Jeff Clearwater <mailto:je...@villagepowerdesign.com>
July 14, 2021 at 1:42 PM
Hey Jay,

Yes the Sunny island Master of this Quad SI AC-coupled off-grid system 
has been giving automatic Eq and Full charge charges perodically as 
appropriate to this 48 V EnergyCell RE2700 pack.


We are getting whole pack volt drops way before we should at 600 well- 
maintained cycles.  When we do whole pack testing - when the voltage 
drops off there are 5 of the 24 cells lagging - their voltage drops 
faster than the rest - but they operate well between 50%-100% - all 
busbars have been triple checked for corrosion and tourque.


So it looks like they just aged prematurely - so I'm in the process of 
collating data from EnnexOS to get exact numbers on how they've been 
treated.  But even with a few hard cycles they should held up better 
than they have.  So perhaps a warranty claim - I've gone through 
charge settings with SMA etc.  I did have the AHrs programmed slightly 
below rated AHrs due to confusion of whether the SI uses the 20 hr or 
10 hr rate (in Europe they use 10 but apparently - unbeknowst to me - 
the US SI uses the 20 Hr - I swear SMA tech support years ago told me 
10 hours)  but now they are claiming that might be the culprit - I 
have a hard time believing that setting the Ahour rating in the SI to 
2100 instead of 2288 as rated would lead to pack failure - but they 
are claiming that could have contributed.


Thoughts?

Best,

Jeff






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Re: [RE-wrenches] How Best to Load Test 2 V Cells

[Jeff Clearwater]

Hey Jay,

Yes the Sunny island Master of this Quad SI AC-coupled off-grid system 
has been giving automatic Eq and Full charge charges perodically as 
appropriate to this 48 V EnergyCell RE2700 pack.


We are getting whole pack volt drops way before we should at 600 well- 
maintained cycles.  When we do whole pack testing - when the voltage 
drops off there are 5 of the 24 cells lagging - their voltage drops 
faster than the rest - but they operate well between 50%-100% - all 
busbars have been triple checked for corrosion and tourque.


So it looks like they just aged prematurely - so I'm in the process of 
collating data from EnnexOS to get exact numbers on how they've been 
treated.  But even with a few hard cycles they should held up better 
than they have.  So perhaps a warranty claim - I've gone through charge 
settings with SMA etc.  I did have the AHrs programmed slightly below 
rated AHrs due to confusion of whether the SI uses the 20 hr or 10 hr 
rate (in Europe they use 10 but apparently - unbeknowst to me - the US 
SI uses the 20 Hr - I swear SMA tech support years ago told me 10 
hours)  but now they are claiming that might be the culprit - I have a 
hard time believing that setting the Ahour rating in the SI to 2100 
instead of 2288 as rated would lead to pack failure - but they are 
claiming that could have contributed.


Thoughts?

Best,

Jeff




Jay <mailto:jay.pe...@gmail.com>
July 14, 2021 at 1:15 PM
Hi Jeff

If it’s the energy cell xlc from Outback then it shows an eq requirement.

If not that battery, most industrial quality VRLA  I’ve seen have a eq 
requirement, conditioning charge or something similar.

And the lowering of capacity is common from experience.

Question
What equipment/brand  is charging it?

Jay

Peltz power

Jeff Clearwater <mailto:je...@villagepowerdesign.com>
July 14, 2021 at 11:32 AM
Thanks Dave - yes I've done whole pack load testing.  The deal with 
this pack though is that it is so remote and the expense of "just 
replace the pack" in terms of shipping and labor is extreme - (tiny 
Bahaman island with only regular small boat access}


And if it was toward the end of the pack's life anyway I'd not mess 
around - but with only 600 well documented cylces on a $25K pack - and 
with probably half that again in shipping and labor to replace - I'm 
needing to carefully document the lagging cells for either a warranty 
claim or at least to make good decisions going forward.


It's easy to access the cells as this is an EnergyCell AGM stack with 
easily accessible terminals and removable terminal bars.


If we replace we'd go LFP - on the order of 100 KWHrs.  So no small 
decision for the customer - so worth the testing.


Thanks!

Jeff Clearwater
Village Power Design
www.villagepowerdesign.com <http://www.villagepowerdesign.com>






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Re: [RE-wrenches] How Best to Load Test 2 V Cells

[Jeff Clearwater]

Thanks Dave - yes I've done whole pack load testing.  The deal with this 
pack though is that it is so remote and the expense of "just replace the 
pack" in terms of shipping and labor is extreme - (tiny Bahaman island 
with only regular small boat access}


And if it was toward the end of the pack's life anyway I'd not mess 
around - but with only 600 well documented cylces on a $25K pack - and 
with probably half that again in shipping and labor to replace - I'm 
needing to carefully document the lagging cells for either a warranty 
claim or at least to make good decisions going forward.


It's easy to access the cells as this is an EnergyCell AGM stack with 
easily accessible terminals and removable terminal bars.


If we replace we'd go LFP - on the order of 100 KWHrs.  So no small 
decision for the customer - so worth the testing.


Thanks!

Jeff Clearwater
Village Power Design
www.villagepowerdesign.com <http://www.villagepowerdesign.com>




Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar <mailto:offgridso...@sti.net>
July 14, 2021 at 10:32 AM

I can ask my battery guy! He is the best with AGM and a dealer for 
full river and concord. He does this alot! Saves a bunch. He always 
says that most of the warranty is just a full/corrective charge and 
80% are good. Undercharging is the problem. Very very few are 
overcharged. His words! I just replace the bank, no time to play with 
this stuff.


However, I just do the same thing I do with any bank of individual 
batteries. I put a large load on the bank with the inverter and look 
at each cells voltage. You may have done this...


The hard part is, depending on the make, is pulling the cell and doing 
a full charge and EQ if it is the make that allows it.


The other hard part is just getting batteries these days. I just heard 
Trojan is 8+ months out. You know what Steve from RollsSurrette has 
said. 8 weeks I think.


The easy part, what make is your cell?

*Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar
"we go where powerlines don't"
http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/
e-mail offgridso...@sti.net <mailto:offgridso...@sti.net>
text 209 813 0060*

On Wed, 14 Jul 2021 10:16:31 -0700, Jeff Clearwater 
 wrote:


Jeff Clearwater <mailto:je...@villagepowerdesign.com>
July 14, 2021 at 10:16 AM
Hey Good Folks,

I've got a 2300 AH AGM pack of 2 Volt cells that is showing signs of 
premature aging (only 600 cycles) and I need to test the AH capacity 
of each cell to help the customer make decisions going forward of 
whether to replace individual lagging cells or the whole pack.


What equipment have folks used to do AHour tests on 2 Volt 2300 AH 
cells?  I've done plenty of load testing on 6, 12, 24 and 48 volt 
packs as a whole but am not sure what's my best approach is for 2 volt 
individual tests.


I know I could put a  resistance load and then use an AHour integrator 
unit - but does anyone know of what unit and what resistive load I'd 
use at 2 volts?  That would be a large device at that voltage to get 
any appreciative wattage! - I'd like to do a 10 hour test at most.


I see 2 V test units on the web but they only appear to be hooked up 
for a small amount of time - so they can't be testing full to empty 
discharge AHours.


Thanks!

Jeff Clearwater
Village Power Design
www.villagepowerdesign.com <http://www.villagepowerdesign.com>


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[RE-wrenches] How Best to Load Test 2 V Cells

[Jeff Clearwater]

Hey Good Folks,

I've got a 2300 AH AGM pack of 2 Volt cells that is showing signs of 
premature aging (only 600 cycles) and I need to test the AH capacity of 
each cell to help the customer make decisions going forward of whether 
to replace individual lagging cells or the whole pack.


What equipment have folks used to do AHour tests on 2 Volt 2300 AH 
cells?  I've done plenty of load testing on 6, 12, 24 and 48 volt packs 
as a whole but am not sure what's my best approach is for 2 volt 
individual tests.


I know I could put a  resistance load and then use an AHour integrator 
unit - but does anyone know of what unit and what resistive load I'd use 
at 2 volts?  That would be a large device at that voltage to get any 
appreciative wattage! - I'd like to do a 10 hour test at most.


I see 2 V test units on the web but they only appear to be hooked up for 
a small amount of time - so they can't be testing full to empty 
discharge AHours.


Thanks!

Jeff Clearwater
Village Power Design
www.villagepowerdesign.com <http://www.villagepowerdesign.com>
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Exploding LFP battery

[Jeff Clearwater]

Actually thinking of my last post - pretty unlikely the heater being on 
would coincide exactly with opening a battery that had gone to 5 V.


But It strikes me that Relion would really want to get to the bottom of 
this - especially if they thought this story might spread and hurt their 
reputation - not to mention just ethical followup on a safety hazard!


So If it were me I'd call Relion and let them know we (the Wrenches 
List) really wants to know what happened and their reputation is in 
question.  The fact they manufactured it - they are the ones to do the 
forensics on what happened - by analyzing the cells and conductors in a 
safe lab environment they can probably trace back where the 
short/overcurrent occured.


Best,

Jeff C.


Hey Jay,

So at the 4:35 mark of this quick review of available LFP batteries on 
the market at the time (2019) - Will Prowess states that "they 
(Relion) are the only battery that has a built-in battery heater (I 
think he was implying as standard equipment and not an option).


Is it possible the battery heater circuit stuck on?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gOqQp2Xjr6U=372s

Just a thought - not sure how you would go back and check that out though!

Best,

Jeff C.
Village Power Design



Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar 
June 17, 2021 at 5:01 PM

I thought of a few more ways this could have happened. The installer 
over torqued the battery terminals. There was not SPD protection in 
the system and it got zapped and escalated. Working on SPD's now for a 
guy. He does not see the value and knows everything!  Pretty hot out 
here in the West!  5PM !  Take care! Cheers!


--

Maybe the BMS was never tested by Relion for all of the possible failure
modes? Maybe it was tested and it got thru QC.
I know very little about
this company. Do they meet the standards like,

manufacturing facilities
are fully certified to ISO 9001/14001 and OSHA 18001 standards.

Meets UL
9540

CERTIFICATION STANDARDS

* IEC 62133
* UL 1973
* UL 2271
*
CE
* UN 38.3

Not trying to be a pain either Jay. You know the LFP I use!
Good Luck!

*Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar
"we go where powerlines don't"
http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/
e-mail offgridso...@sti.net 
text 209 813 0060*

On Thu, 17 Jun 2021 11:55:35 -0600, jay  wrote:



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jay 
June 17, 2021 at 10:55 AM
HI All,

The cover never got all the way off before it was blown off, it was 
just started to be opened, so no way there was an external ignition 
source.  If it was an explosion it was all from internal components 
except for possibly some O2 coming from the outside.


My other question still hasn’t been answered.
If the BMS isn’t taking care of over/under voltage and over current 
what is it doing to prevent damage to the battery?
( this system was within the input PV or output inverter watts/amps of 
the battery specifications) And I just found out that on the day of 
failure, no one has been living there for months and only a grundfos 
SQFlex and a few lights were on, no big loads.


Now maybe I’ve been under the false understanding that this is the 
primary job of the BMS?
Yes I know that there is also cell balancing, % monitoring, blue 
tooth, wifi etc that can be included in the BMS but to me thats all 
secondary.


Hopefully someone can clear this up for me.

jay








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Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar 
June 17, 2021 at 7:01 AM

My .02 on this, and just a guess, the open loop charging parameters 

Re: [RE-wrenches] Exploding LFP battery

[Jeff Clearwater]

Hey Jay,

So at the 4:35 mark of this quick review of available LFP batteries on 
the market at the time (2019) - Will Prowess states that "they (Relion) 
are the only battery that has a built-in battery heater (I think he was 
implying as standard equipment and not an option).


Is it possible the battery heater circuit stuck on?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gOqQp2Xjr6U=372s

Just a thought - not sure how you would go back and check that out though!

Best,

Jeff C.
Village Power Design


Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar 
June 17, 2021 at 5:01 PM

I thought of a few more ways this could have happened. The installer 
over torqued the battery terminals. There was not SPD protection in 
the system and it got zapped and escalated. Working on SPD's now for a 
guy. He does not see the value and knows everything!  Pretty hot out 
here in the West!  5PM !  Take care! Cheers!


--

Maybe the BMS was never tested by Relion for all of the possible failure
modes? Maybe it was tested and it got thru QC.
I know very little about
this company. Do they meet the standards like,

manufacturing facilities
are fully certified to ISO 9001/14001 and OSHA 18001 standards.

Meets UL
9540

CERTIFICATION STANDARDS

* IEC 62133
* UL 1973
* UL 2271
*
CE
* UN 38.3

Not trying to be a pain either Jay. You know the LFP I use!
Good Luck!

*Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar
"we go where powerlines don't"
http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/
e-mail offgridso...@sti.net 
text 209 813 0060*

On Thu, 17 Jun 2021 11:55:35 -0600, jay  wrote:



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jay 
June 17, 2021 at 10:55 AM
HI All,

The cover never got all the way off before it was blown off, it was 
just started to be opened, so no way there was an external ignition 
source.  If it was an explosion it was all from internal components 
except for possibly some O2 coming from the outside.


My other question still hasn’t been answered.
If the BMS isn’t taking care of over/under voltage and over current 
what is it doing to prevent damage to the battery?
( this system was within the input PV or output inverter watts/amps of 
the battery specifications) And I just found out that on the day of 
failure, no one has been living there for months and only a grundfos 
SQFlex and a few lights were on, no big loads.


Now maybe I’ve been under the false understanding that this is the 
primary job of the BMS?
Yes I know that there is also cell balancing, % monitoring, blue 
tooth, wifi etc that can be included in the BMS but to me thats all 
secondary.


Hopefully someone can clear this up for me.

jay








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Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar 
June 17, 2021 at 7:01 AM

My .02 on this, and just a guess, the open loop charging parameters 
were not set right or charge limits for the battery were too high. The 
other way to kill LFP is large loads exceeding the battery max 
discharge current.


Closing the loop eliminates just about all of those issues. It brings 
the battery into the safety area of LA batteries that are still hard 
to beat offgrid. I am not saying you can't blow the top off a LA 
battery eitherWink


*Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar
"we go where powerlines don't"
http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/
e-mail offgridso...@sti.net 
text 209 813 0060*

On Thu, 17 Jun 2021 07:23:07 -0400, John Blittersdorf 
 wrote:




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Re: [RE-wrenches] Exploding LFP battery

[Jeff Clearwater]

Hey Jay,

So I don't believe ReLion batteries are openable - so it's most likely 
that when he decided to open it he cut into it and shorted the leads.


As for recycling - first is health safety!  I'd suggest he contact the 
manufacturer and get specific instructions for safing the mess.  Will 
Prowess of DIY Solar Youtube channel had some leaky cells and the 
manufacturer sent specific instructions to contain and ship back the 
unit.  You could contact him and he might know but the manufacturer 
might know better for that specific model.


Hope that helps!

Jeff C.
Village Power Design


frenergy 
June 15, 2021 at 9:39 PM

Very few details...What does it mean "he opened it up"  I would even 
know how to do that with the L-ions I've been around, seems like its 
something a manufacturer should be doing.  Temperature? charge rate? 
recent usage history? Age? Was it disconnected? Did contacts touch a 
conductor?


            You can probably get water to explode if you abuse it just 
right.


Bill

Feather River Solar Electric
Bill Battagin, Owner
4291 Nelson St.
Taylorsville, CA 95983
530.284.7849
CA Lic 874049
www.frenergy.net
On 6/15/2021 8:14 PM, Jay wrote:
--



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Jay 
June 15, 2021 at 8:14 PM
A fellow installer sent me this just now.
The battery wasn’t working, 5v.
He opened it up and it exploded when he opened it. The lid hit the roof.
Fortunately no one was injured.

Anyone know what to do with this? IE recycling?

And just another example of non explosive lithium batteries exploding

Jay
Peltz power.


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Re: [RE-wrenches] Magnum MM1524AE rebuild?

[Jeff Clearwater]

oh and of course I put an inline fuse in the circuit.

The current that flows of course will be dependent on battery voltage 
and resistor ohms.  So with a 48 VDC pack you could go up in resistance 
- just figure per ohm - volt - amp formulas/calculator here. 
<http://www.sengpielaudio.com/calculator-ohm.htm>


With less than 5 amps - you'll get a nice ramp up fill of your caps on 
most inverters we use in the industry.


Hope that helps!

Jeff Clearwater
Village Power Design

Jeff Clearwater <mailto:je...@villagepowerdesign.com>
June 14, 2021 at 8:53 AM
Hi Drake,

So it's simply a momentary bypass circuit from the Load side to the 
Line side of your Main Inverter Breaker.  So from battery side of 
inverter to momentary on-off switch to resistor to inverter side of 
breaker.


I used a 25 Ohm 50 watt resistor.this one 
<https://www.amazon.com/YiePhiot-Resistor-Aluminum-Wirewound-Doorbell/dp/B07MW4VHDB/ref=sr_1_13?dchild=1=YiePhiot=1623685581=8-13>


and this nice metal screw-terminal momentary on-off switch this one 
<https://www.amazon.com/Momentary-Waterproof-Stainless-Terminal-warranty/dp/B079HR5Q4R/ref=pd_sbs_1/142-3113942-9020237?pd_rd_w=dHOiq_rd_p=a5925d26-9630-40f3-a011-d858608ac88b_rd_r=WSD3157P3TEAB0M4Z6PR_rd_r=ab809190-b332-4f06-952b-369bf1c6a51c_rd_wg=qD1Vl_rd_i=B079HR5Q4R=1>


With a Magnum MS4024 PAE on a 10 KWH LiFePO4 pack - when I push the 
switch initially about 2 amps flows - I've found I need to hold it for 
about 8 seconds for the current to drop off to about .4 amps - then 
when I flip the 175 AMP main DC inverter breaker - there is little 
additional current that flows into the inverter caps - no sparks and 
my BMS doesn't shut down due to overcurrent fault.


Hope that helps!

Best,

Jeff




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drake.chamber...@redwoodalliance.org 
<mailto:drake.chamber...@redwoodalliance.org>

June 11, 2021 at 12:27 PM


Hello Jeff,

That sounds really useful. How do you wire this? Where do you get the 
momentary switch?


Thanks,

Drake

---


On 2021-06-09 12:13, Jeff Clearwater wrote:


Hey Dave and Wrenches,

This is why now I always install a pre-charge circuit for Magnum's 
and other inverters - especially on a Lithium pack with a BMS.  A 
momentary on-off switch and 50 watt 20 ohm resistor - $20 worth of 
parts = a lifetime of less stress on main breaker - inverter caps 
and battery BMS.  I recommend it for any inverter over 2 KW.  Many 
LiFePO4 BMS's will shut down when sensing that much inrush so it's a 
must on many systems.


Best,

Jeff Clearwater
Village Power Design


palumbo1...@gmail.com <mailto:palumbo1...@gmail.com>
June 8, 2021 at 6:01 AM


Is a Magnum MM1524AE inverter/charger repairable and if so by whom?

It failed after being reconnected to a battery bank, the typical
small spark at the battery terminal when being reconnected was
accompanied by a popping sound in the Magnum. Killed the Magnum.

Dave Palumbo

Hyde Park, VT



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List ru

Re: [RE-wrenches] Magnum MM1524AE rebuild?

[Jeff Clearwater]

Hi Drake,

So it's simply a momentary bypass circuit from the Load side to the Line 
side of your Main Inverter Breaker.  So from battery side of inverter to 
momentary on-off switch to resistor to inverter side of breaker.


I used a 25 Ohm 50 watt resistor.this one 
<https://www.amazon.com/YiePhiot-Resistor-Aluminum-Wirewound-Doorbell/dp/B07MW4VHDB/ref=sr_1_13?dchild=1=YiePhiot=1623685581=8-13>


and this nice metal screw-terminal momentary on-off switch this one 
<https://www.amazon.com/Momentary-Waterproof-Stainless-Terminal-warranty/dp/B079HR5Q4R/ref=pd_sbs_1/142-3113942-9020237?pd_rd_w=dHOiq_rd_p=a5925d26-9630-40f3-a011-d858608ac88b_rd_r=WSD3157P3TEAB0M4Z6PR_rd_r=ab809190-b332-4f06-952b-369bf1c6a51c_rd_wg=qD1Vl_rd_i=B079HR5Q4R=1>


With a Magnum MS4024 PAE on a 10 KWH LiFePO4 pack - when I push the 
switch initially about 2 amps flows - I've found I need to hold it for 
about 8 seconds for the current to drop off to about .4 amps - then when 
I flip the 175 AMP main DC inverter breaker - there is little additional 
current that flows into the inverter caps - no sparks and my BMS doesn't 
shut down due to overcurrent fault.


Hope that helps!

Best,

Jeff

drake.chamber...@redwoodalliance.org 
<mailto:drake.chamber...@redwoodalliance.org>

June 11, 2021 at 12:27 PM


Hello Jeff,

That sounds really useful. How do you wire this? Where do you get the 
momentary switch?


Thanks,

Drake

---


On 2021-06-09 12:13, Jeff Clearwater wrote:


Hey Dave and Wrenches,

This is why now I always install a pre-charge circuit for Magnum's 
and other inverters - especially on a Lithium pack with a BMS.  A 
momentary on-off switch and 50 watt 20 ohm resistor - $20 worth of 
parts = a lifetime of less stress on main breaker - inverter caps 
and battery BMS.  I recommend it for any inverter over 2 KW.  Many 
LiFePO4 BMS's will shut down when sensing that much inrush so it's a 
must on many systems.


Best,

Jeff Clearwater
Village Power Design


palumbo1...@gmail.com <mailto:palumbo1...@gmail.com>
June 8, 2021 at 6:01 AM


Is a Magnum MM1524AE inverter/charger repairable and if so by whom?

It failed after being reconnected to a battery bank, the typical
small spark at the battery terminal when being reconnected was
accompanied by a popping sound in the Magnum. Killed the Magnum.

Dave Palumbo

Hyde Park, VT



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Jeff Clearwater <mailto:je...@villagepowerdesign.com>
June 9, 2021 at 9:13 AM
Hey Dave and Wrenches,

This is why now I always install a pre-charge circuit for Magnum's and 
other inverters - especially on a Lithium pack with a BMS.  A 
momentary on-off switch and 50 watt 20 ohm resistor - $20 worth of 
parts = a lifetime of less stress on main breaker - inverter caps and 
battery BMS.  I recommend it for any inverter over 2 KW.  Many LiFePO4 
BMS's will shut down when sensing that much inrush so it's a must on 
many systems.


Best,

Jeff Clearwater
Village Power Design





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Re: [RE-wrenches] sol-ark

[Jeff Clearwater]

Yes indeed Jay.  You’ll find the Sol -Ark is easily programmable and flexible 
to do all you describe. There is No-sell select that Is achieved with CTs 
sensing current at the grid interface. There are also a “ Limit sell to Home” 
and “Limit sell to Load” modes (that can be concurrent with the no sell 
toggle). so you can control power flow no matter whether you wire the output to 
whole house panel or to critical loads sub panel.  

Hope that helps! 

Best

Jeff C.
Village Power Design

Sent from my iPhone

> On Jun 12, 2021, at 12:50 PM, Jason Szumlanski 
>  wrote:
> 
> 
> I just reread that manual today to design a new system and I believe it will 
> do exactly what you want. There is a grid-no sell mode. 
> 
> Jason Szumlanski
> Florida Solar Design Group
> 
>> On Sat, Jun 12, 2021, 3:22 PM jay  wrote:
>> HI All,
>> 
>> I have an application that I think is perfect for the sol-ark but wanted to 
>> check to see if it will actually do exactly what the customer wants. I”m 
>> pretty sure it can but just wanted to make sure.
>> 
>> Hes on grid, but cannot sell solar back to the grid, and no not hawaii.
>> 
>> System would be:
>> DC coupled 
>> battery based
>> grid connected for buying as needed but not selling
>> 
>> 
>> He wants to do:
>> 
>> 1. self consumption of main panel
>> 2. charge batteries for battery back up of some loads:  ie sub panel
>> 3. generator backup 
>> 
>> Thanks in advance,
>> 
>> jay
>> 
>> Peltz Power
>> 
>> 
>> 
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Magnum MM1524AE rebuild?

[Jeff Clearwater]

Hey Dave and Wrenches,

This is why now I always install a pre-charge circuit for Magnum's and 
other inverters - especially on a Lithium pack with a BMS.  A momentary 
on-off switch and 50 watt 20 ohm resistor - $20 worth of parts = a 
lifetime of less stress on main breaker - inverter caps and battery 
BMS.  I recommend it for any inverter over 2 KW.  Many LiFePO4 BMS's 
will shut down when sensing that much inrush so it's a must on many systems.


Best,

Jeff Clearwater
Village Power Design



palumbo1...@gmail.com <mailto:palumbo1...@gmail.com>
June 8, 2021 at 6:01 AM

Is a Magnum MM1524AE inverter/charger repairable and if so by whom?

It failed after being reconnected to a battery bank, the typical small 
spark at the battery terminal when being reconnected was accompanied 
by a popping sound in the Magnum. Killed the Magnum.


Dave Palumbo

Hyde Park, VT



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Re: [RE-wrenches] Chilicon Microinverters AC Coupled with Generators

[Jeff Clearwater]

As Jay says SMA has the Fuel Save Controller for large PV to Diesel 
hybrid systems - with or without batteries.


https://www.sma.de/en/industrial-systems/fuel-save-solution-for-hybrid-systems.html

So no reason it can't be done on a smaller scale.

Best,

Jeff
Village Power Design


Jason Szumlanski 
June 1, 2021 at 3:51 AM
I'm wondering why this isn't more common and better documented. We are 
getting a lot of requests for solar to reduce generator fuel usage 
with PV in smaller residential settings.


I just came across this solution from Fronius: 
https://www.fronius.com/en/solar-energy/installers-partners/products-solutions/offgrid-backup/pv-genset-saving-fuels-with-photovoltaics. 



Jason Szumlanski
Florida Solar Design Group
*


*




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Jay 
May 25, 2021 at 4:16 PM
Installing PV/inverters to a generator is a common practice.
One must make sure you don’t ever have more PV/inverter than load to 
prevent either generator damage or shut down.


I worked on a big project that did actually shut the generator down, 
it tried to run backwards as the PV power exceeded the load. Didn’t 
damage the generator, 125kw.


The main reason is to reduce fuel burn, but how how it is reduced has 
a number of variables:  age, fuel type, size, where in the power band 
it’s operating , and if a larger newer diesel ( they have a very 
different fuel burn curve than older ones are which works very well 
with solar).


SMA and others have full packages that communicate with the generator 
for really large systems like mines etc.


Not knowing the size/type of the PV/generator and the variables, hard 
to say if there would be much fuel savings.


Jay




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Jerry Shafer 
May 25, 2021 at 9:28 AM
Not kidding, but not in reference of wildfires either. Installing 
inverters directly connected to the gennys is in the past lead to smoke.

Jerry



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Re: [RE-wrenches] Generator and AC coupling on a Sol-Ark

[Jeff Clearwater]

Dave A. - Sol-Arks'"GEN" breaker can be used for 1 of 3 operations only 
- Generator, AC Coupling OR Smart Load (Load Shedding)  So when you are 
grid-interactive (which takes up your GRID breaker) and you have PV and 
a Generator - the way to go is to have no AC Coupling - put the Grid and 
Gen where they belong and enjoy the high efficiency and smart control of 
DC Coupling, Time of Use control (for  the Genny,the Grid and the 
Batteries) - all in the mid to high 90's efficiency that the Sol-Ark 
provides.


I know Dave T that you already have an installed Enphase system that 
probably needs to be Rapid Shutdown compliant as well AND that you have 
a whole house genny - however - I still would take a strong look at the 
economic tradeoffs of rewiring the array to DC - (could install Tigo RS) 
- and splitting the whole house Gen output to the Sol-Ark and probably 
existing Transfer switch.  We are just saying - now you are utilizing 
your equipment to the max!  May not be economically feasible labor and 
additional hardware wise in this situation.  But I surely would do the 
math and look at that tradeoff seriously  - perhaps give that option to 
your customer to make the economic decision - would result in long term 
happy customer and most energy utilized with least fuel costs.


I'll let that case rest!  Gees!  all you asked for was some relay 
advice!  See what you get with this List!?  too much expertise! :)


Have fun,

Jeff C.
Village Power Design




Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar 
May 7, 2021 at 3:25 PM

I do not know much about Sol-Arc, but one can AC couple and DC couple 
with a Radian or XW. The genset is on the genset input where it belongs.


For Offgrid AC coupling is just another way to damage a battery or 
genset that does not need to be there. I suppose in a really large 
microgrid with many houses and a skilled person on site,  it could be 
used as a second best method to DC coupling everything.


*Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar
"we go where powerlines don't"
http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/
e-mail offgridso...@sti.net 
text 209 813 0060*

On Fri, 7 May 2021 12:21:14 -0400, Jason Szumlanski 
 wrote:




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Jason Szumlanski 
May 7, 2021 at 9:21 AM
I like the idea of some small amount of AC Coupled PV for off-grid 
systems when there is a known consistent daytime load. Around here the 
worst case scenario involves afternoon air conditioning in summer, so 
some WSW-facing AC coupled PV is an efficient way to cover that load 
and go into darkness with full batteries.


If I understand things correctly, with a Sol-Ark you can 
simultaneously do AC coupling on the GEN input and DC coupling on the 
MPPTs and use the GRID input for the generator.


Jason




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Dave Tedeyan 
May 7, 2021 at 8:41 AM
I would certainly agree with you all that AC coupled for off-grid is 
not the best design choice. But just for clarification, this is a 
grid-tied system where there is already an Enphase M215 system and a 
whole house generator set up.

Cheers,
Dave



--
*Dave Tedeyan, PE*
Sungineer Solar*
*
1653 Slaterville Road, Ithaca, NY 14850
Cell: 607-288-2898
www.sungineersolar.com 


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Re: [RE-wrenches] Wrench Membership Dues

[Jeff Clearwater]

Dear Wrench Colleagues,

Also as a user of this list for over 20 years now - it has been 
invaluable - not only for technical knowledge - but for the historical 
legacy of decades of off-grid experience and community not supported in 
any other forum.


I also contributed and may contribute more - I encourage all to donate 
if you've benefited from the experience and knowledge on the List.


And thanks for your years of patient service Michael!

Best,

Jeff Clearwater
Village Power Design

Ray <mailto:r...@solarray.com>
May 6, 2021 at 10:56 AM
As a user of this list for almost 20 years, it has saved me from 
costly mistakes dozens of times.  Donating just 1% of what this 
invaluable resource has saved me over the years is way beyond the 
suggested donation, but yet is still incredibly cheap.  In that same 
time period, I spent over $30k on my cell service. Think about what 
this biz would be like without this form, and then support it 
accordingly.  Biz has been good, don't be a chump!


Rant off,  Thanks Michael.

Ray Walters
Remote Solar
303 505-8760


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drake.chamber...@redwoodalliance.org 
<mailto:drake.chamber...@redwoodalliance.org>

May 5, 2021 at 6:01 PM
Hello Wrench Associates,

While he's made it optional, I want to encourage you to respond to 
Michael's request for financial support for the Wrench List. Michael 
Welch founded the list in October of 1999, and has been the 
administrator of it ever since. He is now working strictly as a 
volunteer. He deserves our support.


He has suggested a minimum of a $50 donation. Some installers, like 
me, find the list much more valuable than that, and have upped the 
ante accordingly.


His email from a couple weeks ago lays out his request. It is pasted 
below. The following link can be used to pay your dues. It can also be 
found in the footer of every list email.


http://re-wrenches.org

The List is valuable in many ways.
•    It often provides a preview of what to expect when trying new 
equipment.
•    Many Wrenches give technical support that is superior to 
manufacturer’s tech support.
•    The list can get the attention of knowledgeable technical support 
people from manufacturers when the agents who answer the phone 
can't help.


Let’s keep this valuable resource going.

Thank you,

Drake

Drake Chamberlin
Athens Electric LLC
Ohio Electrical Contractor’s License 44810
CO Master Electrician’s License 4526
NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional



Help Ensure Wrench List Continuance

As you are probably aware, the Wrench List has been under the personal 
direction of myself via a small, local nonprofit I work with, after 
Home Power magazine ended sponsorship of the list.


When we announced the sponsorship change back then, I promised that we 
would start asking for funds from members. At the time I was willing 
to keep going as a volunteer, which I'm still doing. I spend 8-20 
hours a week on this list and I'm committed to continuing to do so. 
But we need to start bringing in funds to help cover list costs, 
including my time.


It's been over 2 years since the final Home Power financial crises 
killed its two magazines, ending all our jobs (mine included) and 
financial support for this listserve. There is no outside funding for 
this project. Lacking the likelihood of any big corporate sponsors, 
it's finally time to implement paid Wrench List membership!


Toward that end, we're beginning an annual dues/membership program. 
But don't worry—nobody will be excluded for lack of contributing. Paid 
membership is not mandatory, but would be greatly appreciated and will 
go a long way to ensure The Wrench List's life into the future.


We are suggesting that each individual member contribute an amount 
commensurate with the value of the list for that member, starting at 
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membership at the level that works for you.


We've already had a few Wrenches send checks voluntarily—thank you! We 
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Generator and AC coupling on a Sol-Ark

[Jeff Clearwater]

Hi Dave ~

Well this might not be the answer you are looking for but I'd take a 
serious look at the relative hassle of rewiring the array to DC. 
Sol-Ark's shine in DC coupled mode - highly efficient - and then you 
have the generator port open (now not used for AC coupling) available 
for the generator.   Depending on how accessible the MC4s are on the 
array and how easy to run DC wire it might not be that much work - with 
a much superior result.


Best,

Jeff

--
~~~
Jeff Clearwater
Village Power Design
linkedin <https://www.linkedin.com/in/jeff-clearwater-0622a312/>
www.villagepowerdesign.com <http://www.villagepowerdesign.com>
cell - 413-559-9763
~~~


Dave Tedeyan <mailto:d...@sungineersolar.com>
May 3, 2021 at 7:26 AM
Hi All,

I am planning on using a Sol-Ark for the first time for adding battery 
backup to an existing system. It is Enphase, so clearly it will be AC 
coupled, and there is a whole house generator. When I talked to 
Sol-Ark about it, they recommended putting the generator on a time of 
use schedule to not allow it to come on during the day so that we 
don't run into the issue of the solar backfeeding the generator.


I was wondering though if anyone has just used a contactor to cut out 
the solar when the generator turns on? Something like Outback's 
GS-AC-Gen-Kit, although in this case I will need something rated for 
just over 30A. This seems like a better way to allow the generator to 
run at any time it is needed, especially if it is a gloomy, snowy, 
winter day.


Cheers,
Dave

--
*Dave Tedeyan, PE*
Sungineer Solar*
*
1653 Slaterville Road, Ithaca, NY 14850
Cell: 607-288-2898
www.sungineersolar.com <http://www.sungineersolar.com/>


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Re: [RE-wrenches] how to prevent selling to grid with grid tie inverter

[Jeff Clearwater]

Sol Ark told me they would provide a letter to any utility or jurisdiction if 
that would help alleviate there sell back fears. 

Sent from my iPhone

> On Mar 31, 2021, at 5:51 AM, Jay  wrote:
> 
> 
> A number of companies have this feature which is under their UL listing. 
> SE
> SolArk
> To name 2. 
> 
> Are you saying that the UL listing isn’t enough and that it needs 3rd party 
> testing. 
> If so what organization/testing would that be?
> 
> Jay
> Peltz power
> 
>>> On Mar 31, 2021, at 8:27 AM, Jason Szumlanski 
>>>  wrote:
>>> 
>> 
>> I wonder how quick these software based approaches are to respond to loads 
>> that drop off and momentary selling that may occur before production is 
>> curtailed. I think what Greg may be asking is whether there is a failsafe 
>> method to prevent backfeed. Without a battery, I'm not sure how that would 
>> be accomplished. It's an interesting question.
>> 
>> I can see a small utility not accepting a non-failsafe software based 
>> solution unless it can be shown to be 100% effective via third party 
>> listing/certification.
>> 
>> Jason Szumlanski
>> Florida Solar Design Group
>> 
>>> On Wed, Mar 31, 2021, 7:29 AM Will White  wrote:
>>> Many inverters have the option to zero-sell (no export to the grid) but you 
>>> need an additional CT on the main service conductors so the inverter can 
>>> monitor the loads and ramp down production if it starts to get close to 
>>> producing more than the loads require. 
>>> 
>>> I'd suggest getting into the manuals and white papers of the inverter 
>>> manufacturers to determine if they can do this. I believe both SolarEdge 
>>> and Enphase can do it. I'd assume others can as well.
>>> 
>>> Thanks,
>>> Will
>>> 
>>> 
>>> -- 
>>> Will White
>>> Curriculum Developer
>>> 
>>> 
>>> e: w...@solarenergy.org 
>>> w: www.solarenergy.org 
>>> p: 802-272-3092
>>> 
>>> NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional
>>> # 093006-34
>>> Do you envision a world powered by renewable energy? Be the change.
>>> 
>>> 
 On Tue, Mar 30, 2021 at 9:24 PM greg egan  wrote:
 Wrenches, I've got a small system using SolarEdge inverter (4 kW) that 
 is supposed to go in to a small town that does not allow selling power 
 to the grid.  That may change but that is how it stands now.  The 
 customer wants to use the power that is generated but can not sell or 
 even give excess power away.  Do any of you have any experience setting 
 up a grid tie no battery system so that it can not sell to the grid 
 under any circumstances?  Just wondering before I dig any deeper if 
 there's an obvious solution I'm missing. Thanks,
 
 Greg Egan
 Remote Power Inc.
 
 
 
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Field convertible Lithium bank

[Jeff Clearwater]

Oh and I forgot to say that that battery comes with Anderson Connectors 
as the terminals - so easy to reconfigure from 24 to 48 in the future - 
if you used 4 "Grillas" you'd have 24 KWH rated and easy to go from 2s2p 
to 4s buy just plugging in a couple of new cables.


hope that helps!

Jeff

~~~
Jeff Clearwater
VillageLab
Village Power Design
linkedin <https://www.linkedin.com/in/jeff-clearwater-0622a312/>
www.villagelab.net <http://www.villagelab.net>
www.villagepowerdesign.com <http://www.villagepowerdesign.com>
cell - 413-559-9763
~~~~~~~

Jeff Clearwater <mailto:je...@villagepowerdesign.com>
March 5, 2021 at 5:39 PM
Hey Mac,

You could use the 24 Volt LFP packs from BigBattery.com.  It's not a 
closed loop system with inverter but they have a solid BMS, a good 
reputation and business model and are coming on strong with new 
models. They did have a recent issue with some leaking cells - they 
found 11 out of thousands and are addressing that now.  They use 
prismatic cells - really quality BMS - cells swappable - come in 6 KWH 
increments for the 24 V "GRILA" packs:


good price point - email me off-list for 10% discount code.

https://bigbattery.com/products/24v-grila/

Hope that helps!

Best,

Jeff




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Mac Lewis <mailto:maclew...@gmail.com>
March 4, 2021 at 5:54 PM
Hey wrenches,

Is anyone familiar with a solid Lithium solution that could be 
reconfigured in the field from 24V to 48V in the future?  Probably in 
the neighborhood of 20 kWh.


Thanks

--



Mac Lewis

*

"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates

*


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Re: [RE-wrenches] Field convertible Lithium bank

[Jeff Clearwater]

Hey Mac,

You could use the 24 Volt LFP packs from BigBattery.com.  It's not a 
closed loop system with inverter but they have a solid BMS, a good 
reputation and business model and are coming on strong with new models. 
They did have a recent issue with some leaking cells - they found 11 out 
of thousands and are addressing that now.  They use prismatic cells - 
really quality BMS - cells swappable - come in 6 KWH increments for the 
24 V "GRILA" packs:


good price point - email me off-list for 10% discount code.

https://bigbattery.com/products/24v-grila/

Hope that helps!

Best,

Jeff


Mac Lewis 
March 4, 2021 at 5:54 PM
Hey wrenches,

Is anyone familiar with a solid Lithium solution that could be 
reconfigured in the field from 24V to 48V in the future?  Probably in 
the neighborhood of 20 kWh.


Thanks

--



Mac Lewis

*

"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates

*


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Re: [RE-wrenches] Energy Storage and Working Spaces for Other Equipment

[Jeff Clearwater]

Hey Jason,

I've installed a few systems now using Fortress eVaults.  I like them as 
they are a nice 18.5 KW increment and the BMS seems hardy - nice 
interface screen showing SOC on each battery.


However, call Fortress and discuss the status of their closed loop 
communications (and talk to Sol-Ark about it too).  The tech at Fortress 
told me that less than 4 eVaults the closed loop communication is more 
trouble than it's worth between batteries.  That appears to be because 
they simply have not employed a soft-start resistor and the batteries 
shut down when exposed to cap loading during inverter start-up.  They 
said relying on the individual battery BMSs works fine.  I've found that 
to be true so far - no drift in SOC from battery and Sol-Ark.


Their eFlex system is supposed to be totally closed loop communication 
between batts and with a Sol-Ark.  It's a bit of a small increment for 
large systems but may be worth it.


I imagine they will offer an upgrade for eVaults or a new model soon 
with full closed loop.  Sol-Ark tech said they were still working with 
them on that.


Hope that helps!

Best,

Jeff


Jason Szumlanski 
January 31, 2021 at 11:27 AM
I'm seeing a lot of pictures of LiPO battery systems and people are 
mounting equipment above them like load centers, inverters with 
disconnects, and other serviceable enclosures. Some of these battery 
systems are 24 inches deep or more. This seems to violate NEC 110.26 
requirements for the other serviceable equipment, but the pictures are 
proudly displayed as models of success. Even slender Tesla Powerwalls 
stick out significantly when stacked 2 or 3 deep and would be more 
than 6 inches deeper than a standard load center. Sure, the battery 
cabinets make great places to rest tools while working, but does 
anyone else see this as problematic?


Jason Szumlanski
Florida Solar Design Group


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Re: [RE-wrenches] Battery switch 1, 2 or both for 65VDC

[Jeff Clearwater]

Actually this Perko is rated to 60 VDC - will that suffice?

https://www.boatid.com/perko/250a-medium-duty-battery-selector-switch-with-afd-and-key-lock-mpn-8504dp.html

jc

Jeff Clearwater <mailto:je...@villagepowerdesign.com>
January 2, 2021 at 1:13 AM
Hi Dave,

I doubt you'll find anything in the normal marine rotary selector 
switch configuration for above 50VDC.  How many Amps you need?  You 
could work up your own relay system using these perhaps:


https://www.imopc.com/products/6170

But actually 2 of the standard 125VDC Inverter 175/250 A discos in an 
enclosure is actually pretty straightforward and readily available.  
I'd stick with that- You could use either a Midnite Solar Mini-DC-X2 
box 
https://www.midnitesolar.com/productPhoto.php?product_ID=325=Mini%20%20DC%20Disconnect_ID=8=13=p 
(not cheap) or perhaps Outback Flexware DC switchboxes.  The old Trace 
DC switchbox also held two 125 vdc 175/250 A breakers.


Happy New Year!

Jeff

~~~



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Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar <mailto:offgridso...@sti.net>
December 31, 2020 at 8:18 AM

I can't find a Battery switch for 1, 2 or both for 65VDC. In the past 
I did this with (2) 125vdc 250adc disco's in a metal box.


Anyone seen one of these?

*Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar
"we go where powerlines don't"
http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/
e-mail offgridso...@sti.net <mailto:offgridso...@sti.net>
text 209 813 0060*


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Re: [RE-wrenches] Battery switch 1, 2 or both for 65VDC

[Jeff Clearwater]

Hi Dave,

I doubt you'll find anything in the normal marine rotary selector switch 
configuration for above 50VDC.  How many Amps you need?  You could work 
up your own relay system using these perhaps:


https://www.imopc.com/products/6170

But actually 2 of the standard 125VDC Inverter 175/250 A discos in an 
enclosure is actually pretty straightforward and readily available.  I'd 
stick with that- You could use either a Midnite Solar Mini-DC-X2 box 
https://www.midnitesolar.com/productPhoto.php?product_ID=325=Mini%20%20DC%20Disconnect_ID=8=13=p 
(not cheap) or perhaps Outback Flexware DC switchboxes.  The old Trace 
DC switchbox also held two 125 vdc 175/250 A breakers.


Happy New Year!

Jeff

~~~
Jeff Clearwater
Village Power Design
linkedin <https://www.linkedin.com/in/jeff-clearwater-0622a312/>
www.villagepowerdesign.com <http://www.villagepowerdesign.com>
cell - 413-559-9763
~~~

Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar <mailto:offgridso...@sti.net>
December 31, 2020 at 8:18 AM

I can't find a Battery switch for 1, 2 or both for 65VDC. In the past 
I did this with (2) 125vdc 250adc disco's in a metal box.


Anyone seen one of these?

*Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar
"we go where powerlines don't"
http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/
e-mail offgridso...@sti.net <mailto:offgridso...@sti.net>
text 209 813 0060*


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Re: [RE-wrenches] Wireless float switch control

[Jeff Clearwater]

Welcome Back Nick!

Nice to see your name here - Wrenches continues to be a fabulous 
resource - some of us have been here close to 25 years!


So check out: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LnhUGGjv5WM

I don't have direct experience with this wireless sensor but it looks 
solid: https://www.rpssolarpumps.com/


A google search reveals some others that look less expensive so take a look.

Hope that helps,

Best


Nick A Lucchese 
December 31, 2020 at 10:20 AM
Greetings Wrenches,

I’ve mostly been trying to get away from pumping systems but decided 
to take on a small solar direct Grundfos system for a friend’s mother 
that lives on my road. The well and ideal spot for the array sits 
about 1000’ away from the tanks and it’s the typical scenario of 
switching over an existing setup where all the plumbing lines have 
been buried for many years so there is no opportunity to bury a 
conduit or cable for the float switch conductors. I’m aware of the 
reverse action pressure switch strategy but do not want to pressure 
the fill lines for multiple reasons. Also, the existing float switch 
wires do not run all the way to the well head either even if I did 
want to rework those and invert the logic with another relay 
elsewhere. For obvious reasons I can’t reassign the old power 
conductors to the pump either since I need to keep those in place to 
use with the IO101 as backup.


I’ve installed many dozens of these systems over the years and have 
always found a way around it but this job really begs for some sort of 
wireless solution. I’ve been off the Wrenches list for 10 years now so 
there are many threads I’ve not seen and figured maybe the group has 
come up with a solution strategy for these scenarios by now? Obviously 
the age of Wifi, Bluetooth etc has brought us many wireless solutions 
that did not exist years ago so I’m hopeful we now have an answer to 
these headaches? Even if I needed to add a small battery system to 
power it.


Also just want to say how much I appreciate this list. I rejoined a 
few weeks ago after 10 years off of it and it is so great to see all 
the familiar technicians here. Thank you to Michael and all of you, 
new and old, for being part of the good fight to strive for quality 
and integrity in this passion we all share. The planet needs us more 
than ever and I feel fortunate for every one of you. This list is an 
incredible resource!


Hope all of you have a great last few hours of 2020 and a prosperous 
2021!


Nick A Lucchese

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Re: [RE-wrenches] El Sid replacement

[Jeff Clearwater]

Hey Jay,

The thread I think you are referring to started on 9/14/20 with the 
title "Another Pump Question"


hope that helps!

jc


Jay 
December 16, 2020 at 6:26 AM
Hi All

I know this was discussed not too long ago but I can’t find the thread.

I have someone looking to replace a 25 yr old March 809 24vac unit.

He runs it off of grid power via a small transformer.

Thoughts on replacement or the link info.

Thanks

Jay
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Conext SW4048 not charging from generator

[Jeff Clearwater]

Try lowering the max charge amps incrementally.


Dave Tedeyan 
December 15, 2020 at 10:14 AM
Hi All,

I am going to service a system where the homeowner is telling me that 
their Conext SW4048 had been working fine for 14 months, and then all 
of a sudden recently stopped being able to charge the batteries from 
the generator. It is an off grid system.


The inverter would start charging the batteries, but then about a 
minute later they would hear a relay click and the charging would 
stop. Then it would just keep cycling. If they turned everything off 
for a while, they could then turn it back on and charge for maybe 10 
minutes before it would start cycling. They just have a crappy 4kw 
generator from Harbor Freight.


I have not laid my own eyes on it yet, but will be there in the next 
day or two. Just wondering if anyone has experienced these symptoms 
and have a good idea of what to look for first.


Thanks!
-Dave

*Dave Tedeyan, PE*
Senior Engineer | Taitem Engineering, PC

110 South Albany Street | Ithaca, NY 14850
o. _607.277.1118 x121_  f. 607.277.2119
www.taitem.com 

Solar •Sustainability • Energy • Design
Certified B-Corporation since 2013


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Re: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark Gen Exercise Cycle

[Jeff Clearwater]

Thanks Dustin for keeping us up to date on Sol-Arks feature progress.

While you are upgrading your firmware: :)

So an essential feature for off-grid with a generator is to be able to 
program various SOC levels for generator start AND shuf-off after 
charge.  90% is way too high for many sunny climes and other 
configurations.  Often batteries need a boost in the wee morning hours - 
when they drop below the preferred recharge point but that's only 
perhaps a few hours before the sun comes up - So say you want to start a 
gen to charge a Lead-acid battery at 50% or an LFP batter at 20% SOC but 
you only want to bring it through to the next often or possibly sunny 
morning.  So you set it to run from 50% to 65% (or from 20%-40% for LFP) 
- knowing that the morning sun will take it the rest of the way.  90% 
would waste a ton of fuel in this scenario not too mention unwanted 
noise and wear and tear on the genny.  Depending on the clients use 
profile, the climate, and relative size of the array and battery and 
gen, these figures could vary anywhere from 20% to 100%.  So it's 
essential us off-grid installers have that flexibility.


Also I know that your TOU settings might cover this (though not in all 
modes I believe) but another nice feature is to have 2 or 3 time periods 
with different start and stop settings (Sunny Island does this nicely).  
So if the minimum SOC is reached in the evening you might as well bring 
it up to a higher SOC for gen shut down as it needs to get through the 
entire night whereas if that minimum SOC start trigger is met after 3 
AM  it needs to only bring it to a lower SOC as described above.


I'm loving the Sol-Ark product so far but it is obvious the software is 
a work in progress - the architecture and thought behind it is an 
excellent foundation - thanks for your work and openness for input to 
make it even better.


Best,

Jeff

~~~
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Village Power Design
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Dustin Douglas <mailto:dus...@sol-ark.com>
November 12, 2020 at 11:46 AM
Hi All,

First and foremost thank you for sharing your experiences the the 
Sol-Ark system. We try very hard to have different capabilities and 
add new features that make it flexible for the customer. The two-wire 
start is a feature however that we want to be seamless. In the 
instance where the customer is seeing the system shutdown once the 
generator shuts off has been addressed and fixed with a software 
update. With this update we are able to handle larger generators that 
tend to drift from 60hz. Please give our support team a call so that 
we can update the customer accordingly. We are also looking at adding 
more features including the ability exercise the generator in the near 
feature.


Thank you and have a blessed day,

Dustin Douglas

Sol Ark Engineering Support

(972) 575-8875 x 108

www.sol-ark.com <http://www.sol-ark.com/>


 On Thu, 12 Nov 2020 08:08:51 -0600 *Jay * 
wrote 




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Jay <mailto:jay.pe...@gmail.com>
November 12, 2020 at 9:08 AM
Hi Bill

In the past I’ve had similar issues with generators/inverters. Usually 
a relay on the output power wires that opens( disconnects) when the 
stop signal is sent works as the frequency doesn’t slowly go down, it 
drops to 0 instantly.

I don’t know if it will fix your issue.

Seems like solark needs to greatly improve their firmware.

Jay

Peltz power.







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Bill Hennessy <mailto:b...@berkssolar.com>
November 11, 2020 at 10:03 PM
Hi folks--We've also been disappointed with the Sol-Ark two-wire 
generator start. The unit starts at the charge s

Re: [RE-wrenches] GTBB inverters without batteries

[Jeff Clearwater]

Hey Wrenches,

I should have been more specific in my question.

I'm well aware of the advantages of true-off grid inverters and the 
expansion routes of Sol-Arks or Sunny Islands as well as their price 
point!  Serious surge, serious battery expansion capability, stacking 
etc.  However that all comes with a price . . .


What I'm needing here is a simple 7.6 KW grid-tie inverter with minimal 
(15KWH) backup upgrade route.  No big expectations on the backup or 
surge - just minimal backup at an affordable price.


So in that world - I know the PWRcell works well without batteries - but 
I have less experience with StorEdge or SkyBox.  And the PWRcell is a 
new beast perhaps since Pika was acquired?  I know Generac has been 
upgrading . . .

Any experience with any of these in grid-tie mode with no batteries?

Thanks,

Jeff


Rick Brown <mailto:r...@solshineenergyalternatives.com>
October 5, 2020 at 11:51 AM
Sol-ark will function w/o batteries. Pretty straightforward 
installation with no need for a separate charge controller.



rick brown
SolShine Energy Alternatives, LLC
Electrical & Solar Contracting Services
www.SolShineEnergyAlternatives.com 
<http://www.SolShineEnergyAlternatives.com>

Check, Virginia 24072
Office: 540.235.3095
Mobile: 540.808.9502

VA Class A Contractor Lic# 2705147660
VA Master Electrician Lic# 2710062762
VA Alternative Energy Systems Installer
NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional 110112-21




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Jeff Clearwater <mailto:je...@villagepowerdesign.com>
October 5, 2020 at 11:20 AM
Hey Esteemed colleagues.

I'm curious which GTBB inverters folks are installing when the 
customer can't afford batteries right away.


How do StorEdges, Skyboxes, PWRCells perform in purely grid-tied mode 
with no battery and any advantages - disadvantages of various options 
folks want to point out or considerations for the upgrade path of each?


Thanks,

Jeff



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[RE-wrenches] GTBB inverters without batteries

[Jeff Clearwater]

Hey Esteemed colleagues.

I'm curious which GTBB inverters folks are installing when the customer 
can't afford batteries right away.


How do StorEdges, Skyboxes, PWRCells perform in purely grid-tied mode 
with no battery and any advantages - disadvantages of various options 
folks want to point out or considerations for the upgrade path of each?


Thanks,

Jeff

~~~
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Village Power Design
www.villagepowerdesign.com <http://www.villagepowerdesign.com>
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~~~
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Microgrid... Outback or SMA or other?

[Jeff Clearwater]

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Microgrid... Outback or SMA or other?

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Best Battery

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Best Battery

[Jeff Clearwater]

Hey All,

Great Thread - so does anyone have the missing cycle life information 
for the Discover AES and Fortress Eflex below?


 * Discover AES (42-48-6650) (Spec sheet does not list cycles) (but
   does give 38MWh warranty

see analysis sheet here: 
https://aeesolar.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/02/DISCOVER-AES-The-AES-LiFePO-Battery-Solar-Off-grid-Advantage-20190124-AEE.pdf


that sheet says  "With a designed DOD of 50% lead-acid batteries are 
expected to last ~1500 cycles or 4 Years of daily cycling. With the 
Discover AES 10 Year 38 MWh Warranty, you’ll be half way into your 3rd 
Set of lead-acid batteries."


That would imply 5250 cycles under warranty - but surely it has more in 
it than that for an expensive LFP!  Can't find a reference anywhere.  38 
MWH/6.65 KWH = 5700 cycles - their own spreadsheet says "Cycle Life 
(@DOD rating):  NA"  Impressive warranty but how much past the warranty 
they don't seem to want to venture.  It's the most expensive of the 
options listed here (well comparable to BI) and comes with highest 
quality recommendation and has great closed loop communications - but 
would love to know the top end cycle figure.


 * Fortress EVault (18KWH)  (Spec sheet says 6000)
 * Fortress EFlex (5.4 KWH) ( Spec sheet does not list cycles)
 * Simpliphi 3.8 (spec sheet says 10,000+ @ 80%)
 * Blue Ion 2.0 spec sheet says 8000 @ 100% DOD

Does anyone know why Simpliphi and BI an claim such high cycle life 
whereas Fortress says 6000 and AES won't venture it?  same chemistry? so 
is Fortress underselling or the other folks over selling?


Has anyone even seen a curve of cycle life vs. DOD for LFP?  or is that 
not so much a curve as a flat line?


thanks!

Jeff

~~~
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VillageLab
Village Power Design
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www.villagepowerdesign.com <http://www.villagepowerdesign.com>
cell - 413-559-9763
~~~




Richard Scott wrote on 8/11/20 10:35 AM:
Also keep in mind that the battery charge/discharge efficiency is much 
higher for lithium batteries compared to lead acid.


Richard


On Tue, Aug 11, 2020 at 8:17 AM Jay <mailto:jay.pe...@gmail.com>> wrote:


Hi William,

I dont do the math based on up front kwh cost, but on lifetime kWh
based on the number of cycles per average DOD that are going to be
used. I use this same formula to compare all batteries to each other.

Jay

Peltz power.

For example, a Rolls L16 ex has 3500 cycles at 50% DOD, and it’s a
371 amp hr at 6v  or 2.226 kWh
Retail is $400

3500 cycles x 1.1 kWh At 50 DOD=3850 kWh
$400 / 3850 kWh = $.10 kWh
10 years of 50% cycling daily

Compared to say a mid grade US battery, 1400 cycles to 50%, 400
amp hr. 2.4 kWh
$325/1680 kWh = $.19 kWh.
3.8 yrs life

Compare to say BI
$1000 kWh roughly.
If you get 10,000 cycles, that works out to same cost. $.10 per kWh.
27 yrs, but will the chemistry actually last that long?
However, you have a massive upfront money cost.
And for those of us off grid, you can’t really cycle 100%. And
many lithium in the fine print don’t want you to charge to 100%
daily. Let’s assume you start the generator at 10% and charge to
95%, now your usable amount is actually 85%, not 100%.
Cost per kWh goes to $.12.





On Aug 11, 2020, at 6:04 AM, William Miller
mailto:will...@millersolar.com>> wrote:



Friends:

I am hoping y’all can tell me I am doing something wrong with my
arithmetic.  I have registered to purchase Blue Planet batteries
and priced the product.  I come up with math that indicates that
comparing usable amp/hours to usable amp/hours, that the Blue
Planet is 5 times the cost of a flooded L-16 battery array on a
cost per kilowatt/hour.  Can this be true?

I am using these parameters:

1.DOD for flooded L16s: 50%

2.DOD for Blue Planet: 100%

I hope I am wrong.

Also, we often install battery arrays that are upwards of 4,000
AH.  For example, we installed 5,668 of East Penn flooded
batteries on a couple of projects.  To acquire the same capacity
in Blue Planet would require 9 cabinets (again 50% DOD versus
100% DOD).  Is this correct design?  Is it practical to install 9
cabinets?  Does the system detect and compensate for circulating
currents in this many parallel strings?

Thanks in advance.

William Miller

*From:*RE-wrenches
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
<mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org>] *On Behalf Of
*Jerry Shafer
*Sent:* Sunday, August 9, 2020 12:02 PM
*To:* RE-wrenches
*Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Best Battery

Wrenchel have been very happy with all my Blue Planet battery
systems, best battery you will install.

Jerry

On Sun, Aug 9, 2020, 11:19 AM
mailto:drake.chamber...@redwoodallianc

Re: [RE-wrenches] Xantrex MPPT 80 600 Not Showing Up in SCP

[Jeff Clearwater]

Hey Kirk,

yes shielded cable does little good if you don't ground the little wire 
provided at least at one end.  I just run a ground wire and tape it to 
the CAT cable.


Kirk Herander wrote on 4/17/20 5:50 AM:


So you terminate the shield somehow outside of the RJ45 connector?


On 4/16/2020 9:01:53 PM, Jeff Clearwater 
 wrote:


When I did my cable swap and reconfiguration that fixed it I also was 
more careful to route the xanbus cables away from the batter/inverter 
cables - thinking that perhaps induction was the culprit.  As I have 
an rj45 crimp tool and some shielded CAT5e in the truck I think I'll 
just make up my own cables in the future after spending way more time 
than that troubleshooting.


Best of luck!

jc

Jason Szumlanski wrote on 4/16/20 3:00 PM:
I tried swapping the cables for the XW and MPPT. After reboot the XW 
continued to show up on the SCP but the MPPT did not. I didn't have 
another cable, but this suggests the cable is not the problem. I 
didn't think to change the order, however.


*

*


On Thu, Apr 16, 2020 at 5:57 PM Jeff Clearwater 
mailto:je...@villagelab.net>> wrote:


Hey Jason,

I had a SCP xanbus system once that refused to show a component
- The fix was replacing the cheap ethernet wires that schneider
provided with better cables and/or changing the order of the
components in the series comm string.  not sure which did it as
I did both changes at once but I do suspect those white cables.

Best,

Jeff

Jason Szumlanski wrote on 4/16/20 1:03 PM:

I am working with a client (not my install) with a XW6048 and
MPPT 80 600 with a SCP. The SCP is not showing the MPPT in the
setup menu. I am able to access the system settings and XW
configuration, but not the MPPT settings. It is connected via
Xanbus in this manner:

SCP -> MPPT -> XW

So the MPPT is in the middle and is passing through the XW
signal just fine.

The MPPT also has a red error light illuminated, but it is
charging the battery (positive current measured via clamp meter).

Any ideas?

Thanks,

Jason Szumlanski

*

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Xantrex MPPT 80 600 Not Showing Up in SCP

[Jeff Clearwater]

When I did my cable swap and reconfiguration that fixed it I also was 
more careful to route the xanbus cables away from the batter/inverter 
cables - thinking that perhaps induction was the culprit.  As I have an 
rj45 crimp tool and some shielded CAT5e in the truck I think I'll just 
make up my own cables in the future after spending way more time than 
that troubleshooting.


Best of luck!

jc

Jason Szumlanski wrote on 4/16/20 3:00 PM:
I tried swapping the cables for the XW and MPPT. After reboot the XW 
continued to show up on the SCP but the MPPT did not. I didn't have 
another cable, but this suggests the cable is not the problem. I 
didn't think to change the order, however.


*

*


On Thu, Apr 16, 2020 at 5:57 PM Jeff Clearwater <mailto:je...@villagelab.net>> wrote:


Hey Jason,

I had a SCP xanbus system once that refused to show a component -
The fix was replacing the cheap ethernet wires that schneider
provided with better cables and/or changing the order of the
components in the series comm string.  not sure which did it as I
did both changes at once but I do suspect those white cables.

Best,

Jeff

Jason Szumlanski wrote on 4/16/20 1:03 PM:

I am working with a client (not my install) with a XW6048 and
MPPT 80 600 with a SCP. The SCP is not showing the MPPT in the
setup menu. I am able to access the system settings and XW
configuration, but not the MPPT settings. It is connected via
Xanbus in this manner:

SCP -> MPPT -> XW

So the MPPT is in the middle and is passing through the XW
signal just fine.

The MPPT also has a red error light illuminated, but it is
charging the battery (positive current measured via clamp meter).

Any ideas?

Thanks,

Jason Szumlanski

*

*


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[RE-wrenches] 250KW-500KW Off-grid Inverters?

[Jeff Clearwater]

Hey There Esteemed Wrenches,

Okay so hospitals all over the world are clambering for battery-inverter 
systems and now with potential international funding not available 
before.  Goal is to replace diesel and higher reliability - we'll add 
solar later as we go.


But most medical clinics and small hospitals in the developing world are 
needing 100KW-500 KW systems.


I'm aware of the Dynapower Inverters out of S. Burlington Vermont- they 
offer a 500KW, a 250 KW and a 125 KW at 800-1500 VDC and 480 and 600 VAC 
3 ph.


Anyone have direct experience with them?

What other alternatives should we consider?

Thanks!

Jeff

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[RE-wrenches] Insight2 Phone App service down?

[Jeff Clearwater]

Hi Wrenches,

A client alerted me to the fact he can't connect via the Conext Solar 
app on his phone for the last few days.  I tried and got the same thing 
"Service Unavailable - try again later".


The website works fine - but anyone else having the same result with the 
phone app?


Sandra H?

Thanks,

Jeff

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Ground mount fire code clarifications

[Jeff Clearwater]

Yes Sonoma county requires 30' minimum from ground arrays for fire 
setbacks.  and by extension 30' from property lines (as an array owner 
can't control a neighbors brush removal) More is surely advised!  I 
imagine other CA counties have similar requirements.


Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote on 3/20/20 5:32 PM:


In our area of California, when the green grass dies and turns brown, 
the area under any type of array needs to be free of grass. An array 
could ignite a wildfire if the array were emit sparks. This is a very 
rare condition but it can happen to even the best design and module type.


There would not be any brush anywhere near an array. 10 feet from any 
point of the array makes sense but if there were a wildfire I would 
want alot more. 100 feet is typical for the zone around a home. That 
is what our AHJ wants to see in an inspection. We are in a very 
dangerous area for wildfires in the southern Sierra.


Brush does not count as grass. An array should survive a grass fire. 
Brush would be much more dangerous and must be kept clear as it is a 
much larger heat source than grass. I hope this is helpful.


*Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" 
http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridso...@sti.net 
<mailto:offgridso...@sti.net> text 209 813 0060*


On Fri, 20 Mar 2020 17:06:01 -0600, Dan Fink  wrote:

Hello esteemed Wrenches; I am trying to clear this up for a client 
and his AHJ, which is also puzzled at how to interpret IFC 2018, 
Section 1204.4, which states:


Setback requirements shall not apply to ground-mounted,
free-standing photovoltaic arrays. A clear, brush-free area of 10
feet (3048 mm) shall be required for ground-mounted photovoltaic
arrays.

I found one lone informational note in a white paper stating this was 
to prevent a burning PV array from igniting surrounding vegetation 
and the fire spreading.

So, has anyone dealt with an AHJ on this before? Our questions are:

  * What exactly is a "free-standing photovoltaic array" that is
exempt? A pole mount? Couldn't burning debris from that ignite
vegetation underneath?
  * What exactly does "A clear, brush-free area of 10 feet (3048 mm)"
mean? "10 feet" is a linear measurement, not an area, that would
be in square feet.
  * What is "brush"? Does grass count as brush?

I would interpret this on the safe side as meaning that all 
vegetation under the PV array and out to a 10 foot perimeter should 
be cleared, except for pole-mount arrays (that exception makes no 
sense to me).
I always recommend to clients that the area /under/ the ground mount 
array should be pea gravel bordered by railroad ties, but out to 10 
feet from the array edge seems excessive.

Any input greatly appreciated!
Dan Fink
Executive Director, Buckville Energy Consulting
NABCEP PV Associate
NABCEP Certified PV System Inspector
IREC Certified Instructor™ for:
~ PV Installation Professional
~ Small Wind Installer
NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providers
d <mailto:dan.f...@greendustrialtraining.com>anbo...@gmail.com 
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Brown-Out Prone Opportunity Charging

[Jeff Clearwater]

Yes LFP - the grid is only on a few hours in the morning and a few hours 
in the evening and even that is not reliable.  Diesel is to be avoided 
as much as possible as diesel prices are volatile now that Venezuela is 
closing the tap and local maintenance is iffy.    So I'm looking at 
buffering with as many batteries as financing will allow.  So PS and 
battery need to be sized above power consumption.  It's a small hospital 
so consumption varies quite a bit daily - the more they have the more 
they use and can serve. Solar roof space is limited to about 16 KW - so 
grid opportunity charging could make all the difference for them. We are 
in the 24 KW (5 sec) peak, 8 KW typical, 60-100 KWHrs/day range.  Doing 
more data logging to pin that down more.  Thanks for your input!


Jeff Clearwater
Village Power Design

Starlight Solar Power Systems wrote on 3/16/20 10:05 AM:

Did you mean to say LFP? It depends on who made the battery. LFP 
batteries can be charged using CC/CV. Some, like the Elite PS/GBS 
battery packages can accept a simple CV power supply of 3.65 Vpc.


The inverter is always on and isolated from the grid so it’s not 
affected by poor power quality unless you allow ripple or spikes to 
the battery system. That should be protected at the AC input of your 
charger/PS and PS filtering.


What is the daily power consumption? If the battery and PS are sized 
to meet your loads, then it won’t matter when the grid is available. 
Grid Outages longer than you design for can be backed up with a 
generator.


Larry Crutcher
Starlight Solar Power Systems



On Mar 13, 2020, at 6:09 PM, Jeff Clearwater 
mailto:je...@villagepowerdesign.com>> 
wrote:


Thanks All,

Mick and Tump - I'll look into the Victron - good suggestion - Thanks!

Chris - I'm not sure a transformer will buffer the spikes and 
frequency but just pass them on - others?


Larry and Jerry - If I were to go with the separate battery charger/PS 
approach - what specific  48 V  LFeP battery Charger/PS might you 
recommend and how to protect it with what sort of surge and LV 
equipment?  If either the inverter or PS/Charger is protected within 
too narrow a range then it might defeat the purpose - wanting to 
maximize pulling in as much opportunity charging as we can get.


Seems to me like there might be a market for a highly tolerant battery 
charger between 160-260 VAC and frequency tolerant as well - something 
bulletproof we could put on these systems - perhaps that is the 
Victron - but I'd rather have it in a separate beefy battery charger 
then risk the inverters - especially if we are going to buffer the 
customer from the grid with the battery/inverter system.


For instance we have a hospital that can only use the available grid 
for the office but they can't risk it for their hospital equipment.  
But If I could pull the grid into batteries safely and always power 
their loads with the high reliability battery/inverter system - now we 
are talking.


So specific 48V battery chargers that can take it? Any equipment out 
there anyone is aware of?


Thanks!

Jeff

Tump wrote on 3/13/20 2:47 PM:
Check out the Victron line of Chargers as well as the inverter 
charger units. AC in 187-265 45-65 Hz. for the inverters 230V/50Hz, 
inverter.
Please feel free to e mail me 4 additional info. Great BT support / 
internet access. well thought out product.
On Mar 13, 2020, at 5:11 PM, Jerry Shafer <mailto:jerrysgarag...@gmail.com>> wrote:


Jeff
I have been there too in most cases we have programmed in the VAC 
max/mins with tighter setting so as the grid starts to go we just 
disconnect. I did just do a charger instead of the inverter because 
the grid was generally low on frequency but the charger just charged 
and l see it on optics when that happens

Jerry

On Fri, Mar 13, 2020, 12:03 PM Jeff Clearwater 
mailto:je...@villagepowerdesign.com>> 
wrote:


Good Day Esteemed Wrenchers,

So we are doing more work in developing countries where the grid
is super unreliable but on for some hours almost daily.

So let's say we have a grid that's on 9 AM - 11 AM and 4 PM - 7
PM each day but often browns-out during those hours and comes on
and off during those hours. 230 VAC voltage can drop to 160-180
periodically or go above 260 in spikes.

The present practice in many of these situations is for battery
based system designers/installers is to set up an off-grid
system in parallel to the mains but not relying on them - so the
grid AC IN is not connected.  They just install a transfer
switch and manually switch or they wire a critical loads panel
to the solar.

This avoids constant switching and nuisance shut-downs from the
battery inverter and protects it from burning out trying to
handle the grid.

MY QUESTION:

I'm wondering what we can do to use the grid when it is up for
opportunity charging of the batteries while at the same time not
subjecting

Re: [RE-wrenches] Brown-Out Prone Opportunity Charging

[Jeff Clearwater]

Ahh I see now the Victron does have a line of Chargers that are not also 
Inverters. Thanks!


Anyone else with experience with specific equipment?

Thanks again,

Jeff


Jeff Clearwater wrote on 3/13/20 6:09 PM:


Thanks All,

Mick and Tump - I'll look into the Victron - good suggestion - Thanks!

Chris - I'm not sure a transformer will buffer the spikes and 
frequency but just pass them on - others?


Larry and Jerry - If I were to go with the separate battery charger/PS 
approach - what specific  48 V  LFeP battery Charger/PS might you 
recommend and how to protect it with what sort of surge and LV 
equipment?  If either the inverter or PS/Charger is protected within 
too narrow a range then it might defeat the purpose - wanting to 
maximize pulling in as much opportunity charging as we can get.


Seems to me like there might be a market for a highly tolerant battery 
charger between 160-260 VAC and frequency tolerant as well - something 
bulletproof we could put on these systems - perhaps that is the 
Victron - but I'd rather have it in a separate beefy battery charger 
then risk the inverters - especially if we are going to buffer the 
customer from the grid with the battery/inverter system.


For instance we have a hospital that can only use the available grid 
for the office but they can't risk it for their hospital equipment.  
But If I could pull the grid into batteries safely and always power 
their loads with the high reliability battery/inverter system - now we 
are talking.


So specific 48V battery chargers that can take it? Any equipment out 
there anyone is aware of?


Thanks!

Jeff

Tump wrote on 3/13/20 2:47 PM:
Check out the Victron line of Chargers as well as the inverter 
charger units. AC in 187-265 45-65 Hz. for the inverters 230V/50Hz, 
inverter.
Please feel free to e mail me 4 additional info. Great BT support / 
internet access. well thought out product.
On Mar 13, 2020, at 5:11 PM, Jerry Shafer <mailto:jerrysgarag...@gmail.com>> wrote:


Jeff
I have been there too in most cases we have programmed in the VAC 
max/mins with tighter setting so as the grid starts to go we just 
disconnect. I did just do a charger instead of the inverter because 
the grid was generally low on frequency but the charger just charged 
and l see it on optics when that happens

Jerry

On Fri, Mar 13, 2020, 12:03 PM Jeff Clearwater 
mailto:je...@villagepowerdesign.com>> 
wrote:


Good Day Esteemed Wrenchers,

So we are doing more work in developing countries where the grid
is super unreliable but on for some hours almost daily.

So let's say we have a grid that's on 9 AM - 11 AM and 4 PM - 7
PM each day but often browns-out during those hours and comes on
and off during those hours. 230 VAC voltage can drop to 160-180
periodically or go above 260 in spikes.

The present practice in many of these situations is for battery
based system designers/installers is to set up an off-grid
system in parallel to the mains but not relying on them - so the
grid AC IN is not connected.  They just install a transfer
switch and manually switch or they wire a critical loads panel
to the solar.

This avoids constant switching and nuisance shut-downs from the
battery inverter and protects it from burning out trying to
handle the grid.

MY QUESTION:

I'm wondering what we can do to use the grid when it is up for
opportunity charging of the batteries while at the same time not
subjecting our nice new battery inverters to constant brown-out
tripping and possibly long term damage.

So question #1 - Is anyone using existing battery inverters but
succesfully navigating such a grid variablity settings such that
you are able to take advantage of the grid even if browning out
often?

or question #2 - Can we add some sort of high Voltage and
Frequency tolerant battery charger to the system - keep the
battery inverter/charger off grid - but charge the batteries
from something able to handle the wonky grid without constantly
nuisance charging or burning itself up?

Your thoughts and wisdom I await!!!

Best,

Jeff


-- 
~~~

Jeff Clearwater
Village Power Design
linkedin <https://www.linkedin.com/in/jeff-clearwater-0622a312/>
www.villagepowerdesign.com <http://www.villagepowerdesign.com/>
cell - 413-559-9763
~~~
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Brown-Out Prone Opportunity Charging

[Jeff Clearwater]

Thanks All,

Mick and Tump - I'll look into the Victron - good suggestion - Thanks!

Chris - I'm not sure a transformer will buffer the spikes and frequency 
but just pass them on - others?


Larry and Jerry - If I were to go with the separate battery charger/PS 
approach - what specific  48 V  LFeP battery Charger/PS might you 
recommend and how to protect it with what sort of surge and LV 
equipment?  If either the inverter or PS/Charger is protected within too 
narrow a range then it might defeat the purpose - wanting to maximize 
pulling in as much opportunity charging as we can get.


Seems to me like there might be a market for a highly tolerant battery 
charger between 160-260 VAC and frequency tolerant as well - something 
bulletproof we could put on these systems - perhaps that is the Victron 
- but I'd rather have it in a separate beefy battery charger then risk 
the inverters - especially if we are going to buffer the customer from 
the grid with the battery/inverter system.


For instance we have a hospital that can only use the available grid for 
the office but they can't risk it for their hospital equipment.  But If 
I could pull the grid into batteries safely and always power their loads 
with the high reliability battery/inverter system - now we are talking.


So specific 48V battery chargers that can take it? Any equipment out 
there anyone is aware of?


Thanks!

Jeff

Tump wrote on 3/13/20 2:47 PM:
Check out the Victron line of Chargers as well as the inverter charger 
units. AC in 187-265 45-65 Hz. for the inverters 230V/50Hz, inverter.
Please feel free to e mail me 4 additional info. Great BT support / 
internet access. well thought out product.
On Mar 13, 2020, at 5:11 PM, Jerry Shafer <mailto:jerrysgarag...@gmail.com>> wrote:


Jeff
I have been there too in most cases we have programmed in the VAC 
max/mins with tighter setting so as the grid starts to go we just 
disconnect. I did just do a charger instead of the inverter because 
the grid was generally low on frequency but the charger just charged 
and l see it on optics when that happens

Jerry

On Fri, Mar 13, 2020, 12:03 PM Jeff Clearwater 
mailto:je...@villagepowerdesign.com>> 
wrote:


Good Day Esteemed Wrenchers,

So we are doing more work in developing countries where the grid
is super unreliable but on for some hours almost daily.

So let's say we have a grid that's on 9 AM - 11 AM and 4 PM - 7
PM each day but often browns-out during those hours and comes on
and off during those hours. 230 VAC voltage can drop to 160-180
periodically or go above 260 in spikes.

The present practice in many of these situations is for battery
based system designers/installers is to set up an off-grid system
in parallel to the mains but not relying on them - so the grid AC
IN is not connected.  They just install a transfer switch and
manually switch or they wire a critical loads panel to the solar.

This avoids constant switching and nuisance shut-downs from the
battery inverter and protects it from burning out trying to
handle the grid.

MY QUESTION:

I'm wondering what we can do to use the grid when it is up for
opportunity charging of the batteries while at the same time not
subjecting our nice new battery inverters to constant brown-out
tripping and possibly long term damage.

So question #1 - Is anyone using existing battery inverters but
succesfully navigating such a grid variablity settings such that
you are able to take advantage of the grid even if browning out
often?

or question #2 - Can we add some sort of high Voltage and
Frequency tolerant battery charger to the system - keep the
battery inverter/charger off grid - but charge the batteries from
something able to handle the wonky grid without constantly
nuisance charging or burning itself up?

Your thoughts and wisdom I await!!!

Best,

Jeff


-- 
~~~

Jeff Clearwater
Village Power Design
linkedin <https://www.linkedin.com/in/jeff-clearwater-0622a312/>
www.villagepowerdesign.com <http://www.villagepowerdesign.com/>
cell - 413-559-9763
~~~
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[RE-wrenches] Brown-Out Prone Opportunity Charging

[Jeff Clearwater]

Good Day Esteemed Wrenchers,

So we are doing more work in developing countries where the grid is 
super unreliable but on for some hours almost daily.


So let's say we have a grid that's on 9 AM - 11 AM and 4 PM - 7 PM each 
day but often browns-out during those hours and comes on and off during 
those hours. 230 VAC voltage can drop to 160-180 periodically or go 
above 260 in spikes.


The present practice in many of these situations is for battery based 
system designers/installers is to set up an off-grid system in parallel 
to the mains but not relying on them - so the grid AC IN is not 
connected.  They just install a transfer switch and manually switch or 
they wire a critical loads panel to the solar.


This avoids constant switching and nuisance shut-downs from the battery 
inverter and protects it from burning out trying to handle the grid.


MY QUESTION:

I'm wondering what we can do to use the grid when it is up for 
opportunity charging of the batteries while at the same time not 
subjecting our nice new battery inverters to constant brown-out tripping 
and possibly long term damage.


So question #1 - Is anyone using existing battery inverters but 
succesfully navigating such a grid variablity settings such that you are 
able to take advantage of the grid even if browning out often?


or question #2 - Can we add some sort of high Voltage and Frequency 
tolerant battery charger to the system - keep the battery 
inverter/charger off grid - but charge the batteries from something able 
to handle the wonky grid without constantly nuisance charging or burning 
itself up?


Your thoughts and wisdom I await!!!

Best,

Jeff


--
~~~
Jeff Clearwater
Village Power Design
linkedin <https://www.linkedin.com/in/jeff-clearwater-0622a312/>
www.villagepowerdesign.com <http://www.villagepowerdesign.com>
cell - 413-559-9763
~~~
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Disconnect spacing

[Jeff Clearwater]

Yes, what others said - my understanding is that as long as the door can 
open 90º then it's considered not in the way of working space.


Jeff Clearwater


August Goers wrote on 3/11/20 11:10 AM:
Jason - I'm not understanding what your inspector is pushing back on. 
The enclosure lid needs to be able to open, the handle needs to be 
accessible for operation, and NEC 110.26 working clearances need to be 
maintained. I suppose there may be manufacturer clearance 
requirements, but I haven't seen them for standard knife blade 
disconnects.


August
Luminalt



On Wed, Mar 11, 2020 at 10:23 AM Jason Szumlanski 
<mailto:ja...@floridasolardesigngroup.com>> wrote:


I have an inspector telling me that this pictured fusible
disconnect is too close to the adjacent enclosure. Is anyone aware
of a code supported spacing requirement or manufacturer
specification on such a thing? I have 3-1/2 inches from the handle
to the enclosure which I believe is ample space for safe and
effective operation of the handle.

Jason Szumlanski
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~~~
Jeff Clearwater
Village Power Design
linkedin <https://www.linkedin.com/in/jeff-clearwater-0622a312/>
www.villagepowerdesign.com <http://www.villagepowerdesign.com>
cell - 413-559-9763
~~~
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Semi flexible modules

[Jeff Clearwater]

Hi Jay,

I would questions the assumption that a flexible module is called for 
for an RV.


I've had 600 Watts of traditional framed modules on my Sprinter Van for 
10 yrs now.  These are the 1.5" frames (Panasonic HIP195BA3).  I 
installed 4 rails (prosolar rail) to support the 3 modules the length of 
the van.  The rails are mounted on top of a beefy stainless steel 
Sprinter rack that attaches to the drip edge all around very securely - 
that rack can hold hundreds of pounds - and the  6 uprights that support 
it extend sllightly above the modules.


I find the strong frame edges - coupled with the uprights - clear away 
any branches I might drive into - and they hold up super well.  No need 
for flexible modules.  It does present 1.5" of wind resistance to my 
van's gas mileage - which probably costs more total energy than the 
solar produces if I drive alot but for having full power as a camper - 
nothing beats it.


Just a thought - it's those assumptions that get us every time!

Best!

Jeff

Jay wrote on 3/8/20 4:02 PM:

Hi all,
Especially those that do RV,

Any recommendations as to semi flexible modules?  I find sun power brand, but 
many others saying “sun power cells”.
Prices are of course all over the map.

I am asking because a usual offgrid client bought a camper wants solar 
installed and the semi flexible modules seem like a better solution than 
framed. Lighter weight, non glass, less to break, etc

If anyone has anything to share I’d like to hear about

Thanks

Jay
Peltz power.
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Village Power Design
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www.villagepowerdesign.com <http://www.villagepowerdesign.com>
cell - 413-559-9763
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Re: [RE-wrenches] 48 VDC Control fusing

[Jeff Clearwater]

Hi Drake,

Some in-line glass fuses and holders are not rated for 48 VDC.  The 
midnite 1 Amp breaker is an good option like Ray said but sometimes I 
prefer to use a fuse so it doesn't get accidentally shut off or so I can 
bury it behind a panel so the customer doesn't have too easy access.


So If I have easy access to a place to mount DIN Rail such as in a 
Midnite E-Panel - then I use a midnite touch-fuse holder 
<https://www.solar-electric.com/mnts.html?gclid=Cj0KCQiAkePyBRCEARIsAMy5Scu3bFcDAmHic0cs474Z2qnMm2p9nBF_8QvdPVIHMsSTTbha6YxfoSAaApauEALw_wcB> 
and a 1 amp fuse.  Or you can get them at any supply house like this. 
<https://www.elecdirect.com/fuse-holders-circuit-breakers/fuse-holders-midget-type-cc/1-pole-din-rail-fuseholder-for-cylindrical-fuses-32a/?geoip=us_keyword==Cj0KCQiAkePyBRCEARIsAMy5ScuTspGai2lMi3lC3xafB5aVIWTESwIjoDp-eSKVH38U8s7YzlF1i-UaAizzEALw_wcB>


And of course it's easy enough to add a piece of DIN Rail to the back of 
any panel.


I like using this approach for fusing 24 V power supplies running the 
monitoring equipment too - again so they don't get easily shut off.


Hope that helps.

Best,

Jeff

~~~
Jeff Clearwater
VillageLab
Village Power Design
linkedin <https://www.linkedin.com/in/jeff-clearwater-0622a312/>
www.villagelab.net <http://www.villagelab.net>
www.visionarycommons.org <http://www.visionarycommons.org>
www.villagepowerdesign.com <http://www.villagepowerdesign.com>
skype - jclearwater
zoom by request
cell - 413-559-9763
~~~



drake.chamber...@redwoodalliance.org wrote on 2/28/20 11:35 AM:

Hello Wrenches,

It seems that inline fuse holders and glass fuses are becoming hard to 
find. What is a good way to protect 48 V DC control and 
instrumentation wires?


Thank you,

Drake




--
~~~
Jeff Clearwater
Village Power Design
linkedin <https://www.linkedin.com/in/jeff-clearwater-0622a312/>
www.villagepowerdesign.com <http://www.villagepowerdesign.com>
cell - 413-559-9763
~~~
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Offgrid Generators?

[Jeff Clearwater]

We've had good experience with the KOHLER 30REOZK 30 KW Diesel units.

Jeff Clearwater
Village Power Design

Kevin Pegg wrote on 2/27/20 9:33 PM:

We have had good success with industrial diesels from a local generator shop 
(westquip diesel). Built to order with name brand components. Put a couple 7.5 
kW and few 14 kW units in last year, and they worked well through this past 
winter so far.

Isuzu 3CH1 or 3CE1 engines, mated to a Stamford generator end, with Dynagen or 
Deep Sea controllers.

For our cold winters in northern Canada, generators fitted with glow plugs, 
intake heater as well as auxillary block heater. We got down to -31F for a week 
this winter and they all started fine unattended. Put a few units in the year 
before with Kubota engines and they were all unreliable cold starters. Much 
happier with Isuzu.

We have a few tweaks we do to the controller programming to help it in the cold 
weather. Have had far better success with this approach than any of the options 
discussed in this thread. Having a responsive generator manufacturer

Of late we have had many quality issues with Honda generators - both the cheaper EM 
series, as well as the EU. Frustrating to diagnose as we provide the repair shop with a 
detailed power quality analysis showing them the issues, but they just don't have the 
expertise to understand that. Their testing is "it runs a skill saw, so it's good, 
right?". So am having to caution clients who go down the Honda route, if they get a 
good unit it's likely to last for a while, but if it's a dud out of the box good luck 
getting it resolved.

Kevin

-Original Message-
From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf 
Of Ray
Sent: February-27-20 2:26 PM
To: RE-wrenches 
Subject: [RE-wrenches] Offgrid Generators?

I know we have covered this before, but I just continue to be disappointed with 
the Generac Ecogen.  Very high failure rate, and support is poor.  Service 
requires expensive on site service. Also the no load AC draw and programming 
setup is just not off grid ready at all.  I'm still not seeing any other great 
choices, though.  Here's some other possibilities:

1) Quality portable, like the Honda EU 7000i or Northstar with Honda motor.  
Not the best choice especially for autostart, no propane, but at least they can 
take it in to the shop if it goes down.

2) Kubota (or MQ) diesel. expensive, and possible cold weather start issues?

3) 20+ kW water cooled, 1800 rpm propane model.  Overkill, expensive, but 
probably will last a really long time.

4) Similar Home standby unit, but Kohler brand.  Kohler used to be great, but 
now a days I'm not so sure.

I just can't keep recommending a generator I know has been giving other 
customers trouble.  Any new ideas on this age old problem?

--
Ray Walters
Remote Solar
303 505-8760

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www.villagepowerdesign.com <http://www.villagepowerdesign.com>
cell - 413-559-9763
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Re: [RE-wrenches] High Power Split phase inverter/chargers

[Jeff Clearwater]

The Victron Quattro  (120/240) is stackable to 6 units for 30 KW of split phase 
or 48 KW of 240V and 144KW of 3 phase if I’m reading the spec sheets correctly. 

Sent from my iPhone

> On Feb 23, 2020, at 6:42 AM, Jay  wrote:
> 
> People might also look at Victron inverters.
> 
> Jay
> Peltz Power. 
> 
>> On Feb 23, 2020, at 3:23 AM, Jeff Clearwater  
>> wrote:
>> 
>>  The Sol-Ark manual indicates 240 Volt stacking to 8 units (9 units for 
>> 208V).  They list the "12KW" off-grid output as 8 KWs each.  So 64 KWs.
>> 
>> anybody stacked a signficant number of them yet?
>> 
>> Looking forward to hearing feedback from experienced installers.
>> 
>> Best,
>> 
>> Jeff
>> 
>> 
>> Allan Sindelar wrote on 2/22/20 6:56 PM:
>> 
>>> 
>>> Jeff, according to Midnite’s website, their B-17 inverter can be up to 40 
>>> kW in 2 kW increments. 
>>>  Allan
>>> 
>>>> On Feb 22, 2020, at 8:05 PM, Jeff Clearwater 
>>>>  wrote:
>>>> 
>>>>  Ahh you're right all our 120/240 volt systems are less than 24 KW.  I 
>>>> was thinking of 230 V 50hz systems with multi-cluster boxes.
>>>> 
>>>> How large can the Sol-Ark be stacked to?  Anyone with large Sol-Ark system 
>>>> experience?
>>>> 
>>>> I hear Mornignstar and MidNite are working on surge capable off-grid 
>>>> inverters.  Anyone have a insight as to their KW goals?
>>>> 
>>>> Best,
>>>> 
>>>> Jeff
>>>> 
>>>> wes kennedy wrote on 2/21/20 1:37 PM:
>>>> 
>>>>> Hi Jeff,
>>>>> 
>>>>> I think the biggest split phase sunny island system is 4 units, so that's 
>>>>> 24KW. 
>>>>> 
>>>>> What do you do for larger systems? Segment the loads? Not always very 
>>>>> practical. 
>>>>> 
>>>>> This latest opportunity is for an agricultural building that peaks at 
>>>>> 75KW. 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> -Wes Kennedy 303-653-3073
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> On Friday, February 21, 2020, 12:47:39 PM MST, Jeff Clearwater 
>>>>>  wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> All of my SMA Sunny Island Sunny Boy AC coupled systems greater than 12 
>>>>> KW have worked flawlessly and delivered reliable power and good 
>>>>> monitoring for years.  Less excited about my Schneider and Outback 
>>>>> systems due to callbacks and hassles.  a bit more expensive but worth it 
>>>>> IMHO.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Hope that helps!
>>>>> 
>>>>> Jeff
>>>>> 
>>>>> wes kennedy wrote on 2/21/20 9:41 AM:
>>>>> Hi friends,
>>>>> 
>>>>> I keep running across opportunities with 50KW-300KW peak load 
>>>>> requirements, on split phase services. Big homes, agriculture etc. 
>>>>> 
>>>>> Outback, Schneider, SMA can all gang/stack into the 30-50KW range, but 
>>>>> north of there, I am not finding many (any?) options? 
>>>>> 
>>>>> Just found Aims Power 50 KW split phase unit with claims of higher power 
>>>>> offerings by special order. Even the 50KW unit is $20K, so quite spendy. 
>>>>> Any experience with these guys? 
>>>>> 50kw - 50,000 WATT DC TO AC PURE SINE POWER INVERTER CHARGER 384 Vdc TO 
>>>>> 220/230/240 Vac
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 50kw - 50,000 WATT DC TO AC PURE SINE POWER INVERTER CHARGER 384 Vdc TO 
>>>>> ...
>>>>> 50kw - 50,000 WATT DC TO AC PURE SINE POWER INVERTER CHARGER 384 Vdc 
>>>>> Split Phase 220/230/240
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> Thanks for any input! 
>>>>> 
>>>>> -Wes Kennedy 303-653-3073
>>>>> on this list since the 90's
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> ___
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>>>>> 
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>>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>>>>> 
>

Re: [RE-wrenches] High Power Split phase inverter/chargers

[Jeff Clearwater]

The Sol-Ark manual indicates 240 Volt stacking to 8 units (9 units for 
208V).  They list the "12KW" off-grid output as 8 KWs each.  So 64 KWs.


anybody stacked a signficant number of them yet?

Looking forward to hearing feedback from experienced installers.

Best,

Jeff


Allan Sindelar wrote on 2/22/20 6:56 PM:



Jeff, according to Midnite’s website, their B-17 inverter can be up to 
40 kW in 2 kW increments.

 Allan

On Feb 22, 2020, at 8:05 PM, Jeff Clearwater 
 wrote:


 Ahh you're right all our 120/240 volt systems are less than 24 KW.  
I was thinking of 230 V 50hz systems with multi-cluster boxes.


How large can the Sol-Ark be stacked to?  Anyone with large Sol-Ark 
system experience?


I hear Mornignstar and MidNite are working on surge capable off-grid 
inverters.  Anyone have a insight as to their KW goals?


Best,

Jeff

wes kennedy wrote on 2/21/20 1:37 PM:


Hi Jeff,

I think the biggest split phase sunny island system is 4 units, so 
that's 24KW.


What do you do for larger systems? Segment the loads? Not always 
very practical.


This latest opportunity is for an agricultural building that peaks 
at 75KW.




-Wes Kennedy 303-653-3073


On Friday, February 21, 2020, 12:47:39 PM MST, Jeff Clearwater 
 wrote:



All of my SMA Sunny Island Sunny Boy AC coupled systems greater than 
12 KW have worked flawlessly and delivered reliable power and good 
monitoring for years.  Less excited about my Schneider and Outback 
systems due to callbacks and hassles.  a bit more expensive but 
worth it IMHO.


Hope that helps!

Jeff

wes kennedy wrote on 2/21/20 9:41 AM:
Hi friends,

I keep running across opportunities with 50KW-300KW peak load 
requirements, on split phase services. Big homes, agriculture etc.


Outback, Schneider, SMA can all gang/stack into the 30-50KW range, 
but north of there, I am not finding many (any?) options?


Just found Aims Power 50 KW split phase unit with claims of higher 
power offerings by special order. Even the 50KW unit is $20K, so 
quite spendy. Any experience with these guys?
50kw - 50,000 WATT DC TO AC PURE SINE POWER INVERTER CHARGER 384 Vdc 
TO 220/230/240 Vac 
<https://www.aimscorp.net/50kw-50-000-watt-dc-to-ac-pure-sine-power-inverter-charger-384-vdc.html>









50kw - 50,000 WATT DC TO AC PURE SINE POWER INVERTER CHARGER 384
Vdc TO ...

50kw - 50,000 WATT DC TO AC PURE SINE POWER INVERTER CHARGER 384 Vdc 
Split Phase 220/230/240


<https://www.aimscorp.net/50kw-50-000-watt-dc-to-ac-pure-sine-power-inverter-charger-384-vdc.html>


Thanks for any input!

-Wes Kennedy 303-653-3073
on this list since the 90's


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Village Power Design
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Re: [RE-wrenches] High Power Split phase inverter/chargers

[Jeff Clearwater]

Ahh you're right all our 120/240 volt systems are less than 24 KW.  I 
was thinking of 230 V 50hz systems with multi-cluster boxes.


How large can the Sol-Ark be stacked to?  Anyone with large Sol-Ark 
system experience?


I hear Mornignstar and MidNite are working on surge capable off-grid 
inverters.  Anyone have a insight as to their KW goals?


Best,

Jeff

wes kennedy wrote on 2/21/20 1:37 PM:


Hi Jeff,

I think the biggest split phase sunny island system is 4 units, so 
that's 24KW.


What do you do for larger systems? Segment the loads? Not always very 
practical.


This latest opportunity is for an agricultural building that peaks at 
75KW.




-Wes Kennedy 303-653-3073


On Friday, February 21, 2020, 12:47:39 PM MST, Jeff Clearwater 
 wrote:



All of my SMA Sunny Island Sunny Boy AC coupled systems greater than 
12 KW have worked flawlessly and delivered reliable power and good 
monitoring for years.  Less excited about my Schneider and Outback 
systems due to callbacks and hassles.  a bit more expensive but worth 
it IMHO.


Hope that helps!

Jeff

wes kennedy wrote on 2/21/20 9:41 AM:
Hi friends,

I keep running across opportunities with 50KW-300KW peak load 
requirements, on split phase services. Big homes, agriculture etc.


Outback, Schneider, SMA can all gang/stack into the 30-50KW range, but 
north of there, I am not finding many (any?) options?


Just found Aims Power 50 KW split phase unit with claims of higher 
power offerings by special order. Even the 50KW unit is $20K, so quite 
spendy. Any experience with these guys?
50kw - 50,000 WATT DC TO AC PURE SINE POWER INVERTER CHARGER 384 Vdc 
TO 220/230/240 Vac 
<https://www.aimscorp.net/50kw-50-000-watt-dc-to-ac-pure-sine-power-inverter-charger-384-vdc.html>









50kw - 50,000 WATT DC TO AC PURE SINE POWER INVERTER CHARGER 384
Vdc TO ...

50kw - 50,000 WATT DC TO AC PURE SINE POWER INVERTER CHARGER 384 Vdc 
Split Phase 220/230/240


<https://www.aimscorp.net/50kw-50-000-watt-dc-to-ac-pure-sine-power-inverter-charger-384-vdc.html>


Thanks for any input!

-Wes Kennedy 303-653-3073
on this list since the 90's


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www.villagepowerdesign.com <http://www.villagepowerdesign.com>
cell - 413-559-9763
~~~



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~~~
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Village Power Design
linkedin <https://www.linkedin.com/in/jeff-clearwater-0622a312/>
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Re: [RE-wrenches] High Power Split phase inverter/chargers

[Jeff Clearwater]

All of my SMA Sunny Island Sunny Boy AC coupled systems greater than 12 
KW have worked flawlessly and delivered reliable power and good 
monitoring for years.  Less excited about my Schneider and Outback 
systems due to callbacks and hassles.  a bit more expensive but worth it 
IMHO.


Hope that helps!

Jeff

wes kennedy wrote on 2/21/20 9:41 AM:

Hi friends,

I keep running across opportunities with 50KW-300KW peak load 
requirements, on split phase services. Big homes, agriculture etc.


Outback, Schneider, SMA can all gang/stack into the 30-50KW range, but 
north of there, I am not finding many (any?) options?


Just found Aims Power 50 KW split phase unit with claims of higher 
power offerings by special order. Even the 50KW unit is $20K, so quite 
spendy. Any experience with these guys?
50kw - 50,000 WATT DC TO AC PURE SINE POWER INVERTER CHARGER 384 Vdc 
TO 220/230/240 Vac 
<https://www.aimscorp.net/50kw-50-000-watt-dc-to-ac-pure-sine-power-inverter-charger-384-vdc.html>









50kw - 50,000 WATT DC TO AC PURE SINE POWER INVERTER CHARGER 384
Vdc TO ...

50kw - 50,000 WATT DC TO AC PURE SINE POWER INVERTER CHARGER 384 Vdc 
Split Phase 220/230/240


<https://www.aimscorp.net/50kw-50-000-watt-dc-to-ac-pure-sine-power-inverter-charger-384-vdc.html>


Thanks for any input!

-Wes Kennedy 303-653-3073
on this list since the 90's


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Re: [RE-wrenches] largest 240v GT inverter

[Jeff Clearwater]

Hey Jay,

Why not just use 8 SMA SB 7.7's = 61.6 KW rated, 32 Amps 240 each.

Then use a dedicated 320 Amp Rated (Typical nominal bus of a 400 A 
panel) Supply Side fed Breaker panel as you'll have 256 x 1.25 Amps of 
Solar bus = 320 - right at the limit but you are good to go!


Jeff



Chris Sparadeo wrote on 2/8/20 7:42 PM:

Jay,

Sorry, I missed the 120/240v part. That CPS product is 3 phase. 
Fronius has the Primo 15kW in split phase. Have had good luck with them.


On Sat, Feb 8, 2020 at 10:30 PM Chris Sparadeo 
mailto:sparadeo.ch...@gmail.com>> wrote:


Hi Jay,

CPS has a 60 kW -1000v string inverter that might be a good fit
for your project.

https://www.chintpowersystems.com/commercial-60kw.shtml


Best,

Chris

On Sat, Feb 8, 2020 at 8:54 PM jay mailto:jay.pe...@gmail.com>> wrote:

HI All,

I’m wondering what the largest GT battery less inverter  (and
what people recommend) for 240v 60hz is out there.

I don’t need MLPE, as project would be ground mount, its large
residential, potentially 60KW.

SE has their 11.4KW, but I’ve heard lots of bad things about
them recently.
Fronius has a 10KW?

Thanks in advance


jay

Peltz power


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Re: [RE-wrenches] Conext Gateway Control

[Jeff Clearwater]

Hi Mac,

I was using the ADMIN credentials but that didn't work.  I then set up 
the USER and INSTALLER credentials but unfortunately for diagnosing this 
I used the same password for all three.


Try different passwords for the 3 and then you can see which one works 
and if my theory is even right.  The mobile app seems to need the USER 
credentials.


And it's possible that Schneider made some other change in the meantime 
to the site and my theory isn't even correct.


And it took a few days from the time I made those changes till I had 
access - so easily could have been something on Schneider's end.  Dave 
and Sandra are checking on that.


Good luck!

Jeff C.



Mac Lewis wrote on 2/3/20 11:17 AM:


Hi Jeff,

Thanks for the input.

Quick question, when you are making the changes to site parameters via 
Insight2 and you are prompted for the Gateway password, which 
credentials are you using (User, Installer, or Admin)?  I am trying to 
use the Admin credentials of the Gateway which I thought was correct.


Thanks


On Mon, Feb 3, 2020 at 10:37 AM Jeff Clearwater 
mailto:je...@villagepowerdesign.com>> 
wrote:


Hi Dave and Wrenches,

So bringing this back to the thread after Dave and I brought it
off-list (see below).

My InSight2.0 access to remote changes now works (through the
configurations page) though I'm not 100% sure what the fix was.  I
had tried over a dozen times with the same credentials information
prior to that and it did not work over the course of a month -
giving me the 'DEVICE NOT READY, OR INVALID CREDENTIALS, PLEASE
TRY AGAIN screen when I would try to change a parameter for any
given device.

The fix is either (only things I can think it could possibly be):

1.  Last week - when I was on-site and connected to the Gateway
directly through the local network -  I added a USER and INSTALLER
level access.  For simplicity I gave them the same password. Prior
to that I had not gone into that screen and just had accepted the
ADMIN level as the only level.

OR

2.  I came home from that day to the thread that others were
having the same problem (Mac Lewis) and Dave (per below) said he
had talked to Schnieder and they couldn't reproduce the problem. 
So he asked me to take screen shots and provide the credentials so
they could test.  I was in the process of making up those screen
shots when it started to work.  So my only thought here is that
through some other ticket or tech than Dave is aware of - someone
at Schneider changed something since they were hearing of the problem.

If it's not the latter my theory is that particular Access
password screen is set up to be for INSTALLER OR USER level and
not ADMIN and my adding of those two - though it didn't work right
away when I returned to remote testing as perhaps the InSight
database took some time to register my change - adding those now
let me in.

Same is true for the iPhone App - it now let's us in and that one
specifically asks for the USER Password and has no option for
INSTALLER OR ADMIN.

So Mac - try that and tell us if it works. To better test - unlike
me - give those levels different passwords and see if  you can get
in with one and not the others.

Or Sandra - perhaps  you can shed some light - or liaison with
your tech folks to prove or disprove my theory?

Onward,

Jeff










Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote on 2/3/20 8:25 AM:


No Sir I did not send them anything yet as I was waiting for your
reply.

I will forward what you did and thanks. I am thinking somehow the
Admin level and your changes to user and installer might have
done something? Thx!  I would appreciate it if you would post out
to the list that it is working for you!

  
*Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't"

http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridso...@sti.net
<mailto:offgridso...@sti.net> text 209 813 0060*

On Sun, 2 Feb 2020 20:12:38 -0800, Jeff Clearwater

<mailto:je...@villagepowerdesign.com> wrote:


Hey Dave,

So I went to those screens to take screen shots to show you
what's been happening for over a month now (tried like a dozen
or more times) and voila now it works!

So I'm thinking that someone else beat me to it since you talked
to them and they fixed it over the weekend?  I'm 100% positive I
entered the same info I have been entering all along.

My only other possible change is that last week during a site
visit I enabled a USER level and INSTALLER level access in
addition to the ADMIN.  I set them all to the same password so
in case that password screen was looking for a different
permission level it would work.  It didn't right when I returned
to remote testing but perhaps it took some time for the database
t

Re: [RE-wrenches] Conext Gateway Control

[Jeff Clearwater]

Hi Dave and Wrenches,

So bringing this back to the thread after Dave and I brought it off-list 
(see below).


My InSight2.0 access to remote changes now works (through the 
configurations page) though I'm not 100% sure what the fix was.  I had 
tried over a dozen times with the same credentials information prior to 
that and it did not work over the course of a month - giving me the 
'DEVICE NOT READY, OR INVALID CREDENTIALS, PLEASE TRY AGAIN screen when 
I would try to change a parameter for any given device.


The fix is either (only things I can think it could possibly be):

1.  Last week - when I was on-site and connected to the Gateway directly 
through the local network -  I added a USER and INSTALLER level access.  
For simplicity I gave them the same password. Prior to that I had not 
gone into that screen and just had accepted the ADMIN level as the only 
level.


OR

2.  I came home from that day to the thread that others were having the 
same problem (Mac Lewis) and Dave (per below) said he had talked to 
Schnieder and they couldn't reproduce the problem.  So he asked me to 
take screen shots and provide the credentials so they could test.  I was 
in the process of making up those screen shots when it started to work.  
So my only thought here is that through some other ticket or tech than 
Dave is aware of - someone at Schneider changed something since they 
were hearing of the problem.


If it's not the latter my theory is that particular Access password 
screen is set up to be for INSTALLER OR USER level and not ADMIN and my 
adding of those two - though it didn't work right away when I returned 
to remote testing as perhaps the InSight database took some time to 
register my change - adding those now let me in.


Same is true for the iPhone App - it now let's us in and that one 
specifically asks for the USER Password and has no option for INSTALLER 
OR ADMIN.


So Mac - try that and tell us if it works. To better test - unlike me - 
give those levels different passwords and see if  you can get in with 
one and not the others.


Or Sandra - perhaps  you can shed some light - or liaison with your tech 
folks to prove or disprove my theory?


Onward,

Jeff










Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote on 2/3/20 8:25 AM:


No Sir I did not send them anything yet as I was waiting for your reply.

I will forward what you did and thanks. I am thinking somehow the 
Admin level and your changes to user and installer might have done 
something? Thx!  I would appreciate it if you would post out to the 
list that it is working for you!


  
*Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" 
http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridso...@sti.net 
<mailto:offgridso...@sti.net> text 209 813 0060*


On Sun, 2 Feb 2020 20:12:38 -0800, Jeff Clearwater 
 wrote:



Hey Dave,

So I went to those screens to take screen shots to show you what's 
been happening for over a month now (tried like a dozen or more 
times) and voila now it works!


So I'm thinking that someone else beat me to it since you talked to 
them and they fixed it over the weekend?  I'm 100% positive I entered 
the same info I have been entering all along.


My only other possible change is that last week during a site visit I 
enabled a USER level and INSTALLER level access in addition to the 
ADMIN.  I set them all to the same password so in case that password 
screen was looking for a different permission level it would work.  
It didn't right when I returned to remote testing but perhaps it took 
some time for the database to catch up?


So not sure which one of those two is responsible for the fix but in 
my mind it has to be one of the two - I hope that helps :)


Let me know if you find out.

Best,

Jeff


Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote on 2/2/20 8:44 AM:


Hi Jeff,

You are getting a screen like I attached right?

So your problem is you can't make changes on Insight2. When you 
attempt a change, like to turn on/off the SCP button beep you get 
the error wrong password. The password asked for is the Gateway PW. 
The gateway PW works on gateway?


If all of this is true I will need the PW of the gateway and the URN.

Sorry to be overthinking this but this is not easy and there is no 
room from creativity.



  
*Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" 
http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridso...@sti.net 
<mailto:offgridso...@sti.net> text 209 813 0060*


On Sat, 1 Feb 2020 17:24:49 -0800, Jeff Clearwater 
 wrote:


It's happening to me.  Would love to solve it.
Thanks

Sent from my iPhone

On Feb 1, 2020, at 1:43 PM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar
mailto:offgridso...@sti.net>> wrote:

Wrenches,

I was told by Schneider that they would like engineering to
take a peak at a system where Insight2 is giving the
password error for the Gateway.

" If you have any customers facing 

Re: [RE-wrenches] Troubleshooting Xanbus

[Jeff Clearwater]

Hi Mac and William,

This is interesting because I was having an issue of the Xanbus network 
not seeing the Battery Monitor until I replaced an ethernet cable.  My 
present theory is that the white ethernet cables being supplied by 
Schnieder are marginal.


Given that many of our systems locate the monitoring components close to 
the main battery DC Inverter cables and that the EMF noisy PV charge 
controls with their medium voltage DC are also nearby -  especially 
going through the tight quarters of a MidNite E-panel or equivalent - it 
strikes me that inductive currents or EMF noise could be the culprit.


I'm wondering if for future installs I should just make up my own cables 
from shielded CAT6 as a standard practice for all ethernet-based comm 
systems?  That said I've never had a problem with SMA - only Schnieder.


Thoughts?

Best,

Jeff

William Miller wrote on 1/31/20 8:15 AM:


Mac:

1.We have had this issue for years.  Specifically this affects AGS 
units. We were told that bus cables had to be a minimum of 6’ to avoid 
“ringing.”  Later (after we purchased and replaced cables) we were 
told there was no foundation for this claim.


2.Some Fluke advanced testers we have looked at have a “bus health” 
test function.  I think this is in the 125B Scope Meter and I see 
reference to the function with a BHT190 break out adapter.  The 
literature indicates applications on the following bus architectures:  
Profibus, Foundation, Modbus, CAN-bus, AS-i bus and RS-485.  I will 
leave it to you to research if this function would be helpful.   BTW, 
the Scopemeter is about $3K and hard to get in a hurry.  You could 
probably rent one.


I wish you good luck in resolving your issue.

William

Miller Solar

17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422

805-438-5600

www.millersolar.com <http://www.millersolar.com/>

CA Lic. 773985

*From:*RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org 
<mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org>] *On Behalf Of *Mac 
Lewis

*Sent:* Friday, January 31, 2020 6:19 AM
*To:* RE-wrenches
*Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Troubleshooting Xanbus

Hi Wrenches,

Does anyone have a good way to locate intermittent Xanbus issues with 
Schneider equipment?  We have a site that has been giving us a lot of 
issues.  It seems like the AGS might be dropping in and out and 
defaulting to "Off".  It works flawlessly when we are there of 
course.  Cables are testing fine.  No other device seems to have these 
issues.  All of these cables are factory made.


Maybe there is another explanation for the AGS defaulting to "Off".

Thanks in advance for your help

--

Mac Lewis**

"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." *-Sócrates***



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~~~
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Village Power Design
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www.villagepowerdesign.com <http://www.villagepowerdesign.com>
cell - 413-559-9763
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Conext Gateway Control

[Jeff Clearwater]

Hi Mac and Luke and Wrenches,

I'm having the exact same issue.  It hasn't been a pressing problem 
right away as I've been having access to the site but I was hoping my 
last visit where I added Users and Admins and Installers would fix it 
due to permissions levels.  But in Admins and Installers I still get the 
same thing:


"DEVICE NOT READY OR INVALID CREDENTIALS, PLEASE TRY AGAIN"

And like Mac I can log in and make changes when I'm on site using the 
direct interface but not through InSight2.0.


I've also checked numerous times that I'm using the correct Gateway 
credentials.


Sandra?

Thanks,

Jeff

Luke Christy wrote on 1/31/20 6:44 AM:

Hi Mac,
I have a very similar issue to yours with a customer’s remote cabin 
and the need to be able to monitor and change settings remotely. I 
installed my first Gateway with a brand new Conext 4048 and an 
MPPT-150 controller and I’m having the exact same trouble and am 
getting the same error message. Before installation, I actually 
thought I had verified that I could make settings changes through the 
internet on a bench test using the admin password, etc, however, once 
the system was installed I haven’t been able to get it to work despite 
verifying my passwords and making a long trip for a return visit to 
the site.


Perhaps someone else has some insight?
I’m glad to know that this may be a larger issue.

-Luke


Luke Christy

NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional


On Jan 31, 2020, at 07:10, Mac Lewis  wrote:


Hi Wrenches,

I am working with Schneider on this but I haven't heard back in a few 
days so I thought I'd put it out to the list to see if anyone else 
has worked through this.


We recently installed our first Conext Gateway in hopes of getting 
better monitoring and control through Insight 2 portal.  We installed 
it on an XW 5548, AGS, Batt Mon, HV-MPPT charge controller ~ 4 years old.


For some reason, we cannot make changes to the system via the 
portal.  The monitoring is much better but the control isn't 
functional.  When I make a parameter change, it asks for the username 
and password but then gives this error every time:




I verified that I am entering the Gateway admin username and the new 
password that I assigned.  I can log into it locally, 
directly through the Access Pt functionality.


Any suggestions? Schneider isn't responding and its a snow cat ride 
to get into the site.


Thanks



--



Mac Lewis

*

"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates

*
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cell - 413-559-9763
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Re: [RE-wrenches] 705.95(B) and Sunny Boys - current on Neutral?

[Jeff Clearwater]

Thanks for your reply Mike. -  Yes we understand all of this but why make it 
hard for the AHJ to in the field?  A little manufacturer support here would be 
helpful. If two of us wrenches had the same reaction to the wording might the 
AJH not also be confused?  

Sent from my iPhone

> On Nov 29, 2019, at 1:06 PM, Harry Mahon  
> wrote:
> 
> Please see the third and fourth paragraph under ‘Neutral Specifications’ for 
> the description of operation of the Sunny Boy US -40/-41 family.
>  
> The third paragraph is correct for ALL Sunny Boy models, that is why no model 
> numbers are called out.  This paragraph states what you are looking for: that 
> the neutral is NOT a current carrying conductor.
>  
> The fourth paragraph calls out the Sunny Boy US-40/-41 specifically as it can 
> work on 240 or 208 delta services where there is no neutral conductor 
> available. This is not supported by any other inverter referenced by the 
> document. And this is why the third paragraph is worded “WHEN connecting two 
> ungrounded AC conductors and a single grounded conductor to the Sunny Boy..” 
> – it covers the Sunny Boy US-40/-41 WHEN attaching to a grounded service.
>  
> If there is any confusion by an inspector, SMA will be happy to clarify why 
> the document is worded this way.
>  
> The “X” is to indicate that the specific inverter will support attachment to 
> the utility service listed.  That could be explicitly called out, I will pass 
> that feedback on.
>  
> Best regards -
> Mike
>  
>  
> SMA America
> Michael Mahon
> Technical Trainer, Solar Academy
> 6020 West Oaks Boulevard, Suite 300
> Rocklin, CA 95765
> U.S.A.
> Mobile:   +1 916 918 9412
> www.SMA-America.com
>  
> Solar Academy: https://solaracademy.sma.de/en.html
>  
> SMA America Solar Academy webinars:
> https://solaracademy.sma.de/en/courses.html
> Choose "English" and "Online" as filters.
>  
>  
> 
>  
> 
>  
>  
> This email and any attachments thereto may contain SMA America, LLC 
> confidential, privileged and private material for the sole use of the 
> intended recipient. Any review, copying, or distribution of this email (or 
> any attachments thereto) by others is strictly prohibited. If you are not the 
> intended recipient, please contact the sender immediately and permanently 
> delete the original and any copies of this email and any attachments thereto. 
> Thank you.
>  
> From: Jeff Clearwater  
> Sent: Tuesday, November 26, 2019 2:13 PM
> To: RE-wrenches ; scot.a...@solarcentex.com
> Cc: Harry Mahon 
> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] 705.95(B) and Sunny Boys - current on Neutral?
>  
> Hi Scot and Mike,
> 
> Yes It is terribly worded - an AHJ could easily read it and come away with 
> the impression that only the TL and TriPower required the neutral only for 
> instrumentation and voltage and phase detection - implying the rest used the 
> neutral for current.
> 
> And your right what do the x's even mean?
> 
> I see the SMA author to be Chris Schwegler authored on July 19th, 2019.  
> Mike, can you send back to him for a re-write as this won't hold it's water 
> to AHJs going forward.
> 
> Thanks!
> 
> Jeff
> 
> 
> scot.a...@solarcentex.com wrote on 11/26/19 6:42 AM:
> 
> 
> Mike,
>  
> Thanks for posting the note, but I find the wording to be less than fully 
> clear. According to this note, the “The transformer-less series of inverters 
> named Sunny Boy TL-US-12, Sunny Boy TL-US-22 and Sunny Tripower 
> 12/15/20/24000TL-US-10  have a neutral connection that is required at 
> installation for instrumentation, voltage and phase detection only.”
>  
> There is no mention of the -41 inverter also using the neutral for reference 
> only, even though the note is “applicable to the following inverter types” 
> and that shows the -41
> 
> Also, the table has these green x marks but no annotation of what the green x 
> indicates.
> 
> Can you clarify, please?
>  
>  
> 
>  
>  
>  
> From: RE-wrenches  On Behalf Of 
> Harry Mahon
> Sent: Thursday, November 14, 2019 11:02 AM
> To: RE-wrenches ; Jeff Clearwater 
> 
> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] 705.95(B) and Sunny Boys - current on Neutral?
>  
> Lloyd – great find!
>  
> I am attaching a updated note that specifically calls out current products 
> but has less code detail.
>  
> Best regards –
> Mike
>  
> SMA America
> Michael Mahon
> Technical Trainer, Solar Academy
> 6020 West Oaks Boulevard, Suite 300
> Rocklin, CA 95765
> U.S.A.
> Mobile:   +1 916 918 9412
> www.SMA-America.com
>  
> Solar Academy: https://solaracademy.sma.de/en.html
>  
> SMA America Solar Academy 

Re: [RE-wrenches] 705.95(B) and Sunny Boys - current on Neutral?

[Jeff Clearwater]

Hi Scot and Mike,

Yes It is terribly worded - an AHJ could easily read it and come away 
with the impression that only the TL and TriPower required the neutral 
only for instrumentation and voltage and phase detection - implying the 
rest used the neutral for current.


And your right what do the x's even mean?

I see the SMA author to be Chris Schwegler authored on July 19th, 2019. 
Mike, can you send back to him for a re-write as this won't hold it's 
water to AHJs going forward.


Thanks!

Jeff


scot.a...@solarcentex.com wrote on 11/26/19 6:42 AM:


Mike,

Thanks for posting the note, but I find the wording to be less than 
fully clear. According to this note, the “The transformer-less series 
of inverters named Sunny Boy TL-US-12, Sunny Boy TL-US-22 and Sunny 
Tripower 12/15/20/24000TL-US-10 have a neutral connection that is 
required at installation for instrumentation, voltage and phase 
detection only.”


There is no mention of the -41 inverter also using the neutral for 
reference only, even though the note is “applicable to the following 
inverter types” and that shows the -41


Also, the table has these green x marks but no annotation of what the 
green x indicates.


Can you clarify, please?

simple signature block

*From:* RE-wrenches  *On 
Behalf Of *Harry Mahon

*Sent:* Thursday, November 14, 2019 11:02 AM
*To:* RE-wrenches ; Jeff Clearwater 

*Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] 705.95(B) and Sunny Boys - current on 
Neutral?


Lloyd – great find!

I am attaching a updated note that specifically calls out current 
products but has less code detail.


Best regards –

Mike

SMA America
Michael Mahon
Technical Trainer, Solar Academy
6020 West Oaks Boulevard, Suite 300

Rocklin, CA 95765

U.S.A.
Mobile: +1 916 918 9412_
www.SMA-America.com <http://www.sma-america.com/>_

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and permanently delete the original and any copies of this email and 
any attachments thereto. Thank you.


*From:* RE-wrenches <mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org>> *On Behalf Of 
*Lloyd Hoffstatter

*Sent:* Wednesday, November 13, 2019 10:38 AM
*To:* Jeff Clearwater <mailto:je...@villagepowerdesign.com>>; RE-wrenches 
<mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org>>
*Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] 705.95(B) and Sunny Boys - current on 
Neutral?


Jeff,

An oldie but attached tech note explains.

May Need to upsize G / N  for voltage drop depending on run…

Best regards,

Lloyd

Lloyd Hoffstatter

Sunstruck Consulting

Sent from Mail 
<https://eur02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fgo.microsoft.com%2Ffwlink%2F%3FLinkId%3D550986=02%7C01%7Cmichael.mahon%40sma-america.com%7Ca57263d3340c445bd5ce08d76860354c%7Ca059b96c28294d1188374cc1ff84735d%7C0%7C0%7C637092634734737930=ljnPZYRGhPwgRSsi3yM%2BI46x1iUvt52uQ8DtHvidzvw%3D=0> 
for Windows 10


----

*From:*RE-wrenches <mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org>> on behalf of Jeff 
Clearwater <mailto:je...@villagepowerdesign.com>>

*Sent:* Wednesday, November 13, 2019 12:00:37 PM
*To:* RE-wrenches <mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org>>

*Subject:* [RE-wrenches] 705.95(B) and Sunny Boys - current on Neutral?

Hey Folks,

So does anyone have a reference I can show my AJH as to whether there 
is any current on the neutral of a single phase 240 VAC SB 7.7-40 
inverter?


705.95(B) states:

*Neutral Cond

Re: [RE-wrenches] Convex modules

[Jeff Clearwater]

Yes good thought Jay but it strikes me if we are trying to offset the results 
of anticipated bowing with crowning its time for a beefier frame or thicker 
glass. REC modules went with 2 cross bars in their frame when going to 72 cell. 
I’ve been  observing frames get thinner over time - wondering how a 30 mm frame 
could do the job on 72 cell mods when we used to have twice that on 60 cell 
mods. It’s great to save aluminum and weight but not at the expense of panel 
life. Can’t imagine the impact resistance goes up with less support never mind 
possible degradation to the wafers due to flexing?  

Any panel manufacturers on the List that can comment?  Any other modules 
besides RECS using cross bars? 

Thanks

Jeff Clearwater 

Sent from my iPhone

> On Nov 17, 2019, at 2:25 PM, Jay  wrote:
> 
> I’m wondering if it’s designed to account for gravity sag once the modules 
> are mounted. Lots of modules I’ve seen especially the larger format ones seem 
> to be concave with time. 
> 
> If I understand correctly, these are bowed up which would allow them to 
> settle flat?
> 
> Jay
> 
> 
> 
>> On Nov 17, 2019, at 2:17 PM, Kristopher Schmid  
>> wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> The banding is a good thought, Glenn, except that the one module that was 
>> oriented the opposite way was deformed in the opposite direction.  This 
>> rules out the forklift idea, too.  I will check specs.  I doubt that testing 
>> will reveal anything immediate, but I'm a bit concerned about the potential 
>> long term effects.
>> 
>>> On Sat, Nov 16, 2019, 9:12 AM Kristopher Schmid  
>>> wrote:
>>> So, I opened up a pallet of Jinko 400 watt half cell modules yesterday and 
>>> noticed that every module was convex to the glass side.  The center was 1/4 
>>> inch higher than the corners.  Has anyone else seen this?  Should I be 
>>> concerned?  Manufacturing issue?  Intentional?
>>> 
>>> Thanks,
>>> Kris
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Battery hydration system info

[Jeff Clearwater]

Hey Jay,

I've replaced a few of the older automatic systems with what I usually 
recommend in their place - an elevated 3 gallon plastic reservoir with a 
filling hole cut in the top - leading to a petcock and tube to another 
petcock controlled nozzle that can be brought to each battery filler cap 
and easily controlled to deliver the exact amount needed.  Add a 
flashlight and voila.


However as you well know voila is not so easy as It does require the 
folks to actually remember to water their batteries.  An auto email 
every 3 months with a followup to see if they did it is probably as 
reliable as an automatic system that no-one checks on.  I don't know - 
have folks had good history with automatic systems?


It's an uphill battle either way - and as you probably know - it really 
comes down to a client who "gets it"  - that their $5K-25K investment 
needs an hour of their time every 3 months or so.


I have had some luck with service contracts - for local clients - 
unfortunately half my clients are spread half way round the world - so 
that doesn't help either in those cases.


Probably not telling you anything you don't already know - but saw that 
no-one else responded so wanted to see if we could get a rise out of the 
list - perhaps someone out there knows of those parts?


Best,

Jeff


Jay wrote on 11/11/19 1:38 PM:


I’ve got a client who has a watering system made by
Battery hydration systems who appear to out of business.

Does anyone know of compatible replacement parts?

Thx
Jay
Peltz Power.


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[RE-wrenches] 705.95(B) and Sunny Boys - current on Neutral?

[Jeff Clearwater]

Hey Folks,

So does anyone have a reference I can show my AJH as to whether there is 
any current on the neutral of a single phase 240 VAC SB 7.7-40 inverter?


705.95(B) states:

Neutral Conductor for Instrumentation, Voltage
Detection or Phase Detection. A conductor used solely for
instrumentation, voltage detection, or phase detection and
connected to a single-phase or 3-phase utility-interactive
inverter, shall be permitted to be sized at less than the
ampacity of the other current-carrying conductors and shall
be sized equal to or larger than the equipment grounding
conductor.

Be great not have to run 3/0 wire to my dedicated PV subpanel with 5 
SB7.7s.  At 200 Amps I could use 6 AWG according to 705.95.  A huge 
savings in wire pull hassle not to mention copper.


Are there any other practical considerations for those SBs to operate 
well if I were to go that low with the neutral?


Anybody have any field experience with AJHs on this?

Thanks,

Jeff

~~~
Jeff Clearwater
Village Power Design
linkedin <https://www.linkedin.com/in/jeff-clearwater-0622a312/>
www.villagepowerdesign.com <http://www.villagepowerdesign.com>
cell - 413-559-9763
~~~
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[RE-wrenches] GFCI Options and OCP on SMA's Secure Power Supply

[Jeff Clearwater]

Wrenches,

I've got 5 SB 7.7s going in and I'm contemplating various ways to 
configure the 5 SPS circuits.


Questions:

1.  I'm not clear if additional overcurrent protection is needed 
anywhere in the circuit?  - the SMA manual doesn't mention it and I'm 
wondering if it's built in?  I assume the switch is not carrying the 
current so doesn't need OCP but how about the outlet?


2.  SMA recommends 30mA of for the GFCI device - Most GFCI outlets are 
5mA (Class A) or 20mA (Class B).  What have folks been using to avoid 
nuisance tripping?  Does this lead us back to a 30mA GFCI breaker?


3.  Anyone experience appliance damage from brownouts - can one run 
multiple fridges on one 16 Amp circuit?  Experience?


Thanks!

Jeff

~~~
Jeff Clearwater
Village Power Design
linkedin <https://www.linkedin.com/in/jeff-clearwater-0622a312/>
www.villagepowerdesign.com <http://www.villagepowerdesign.com>
cell - 413-559-9763
~~~
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Re: [RE-wrenches] More on Supply side connection

[Jeff Clearwater]

Hey Bill,

Yes that's pretty much it.  Stand-Alone Meter Socket to J-Box with 
Splice Tap to Solar Disco and Main Breaker Panel.  Max backfeed 200 Amps 
(160 Amps rated solar inverters) for single phase.


You'll need to meet the Short Circuit Current Rating (SCCR) for all 
equipment and the IC (Interrupting rating) for all overcurrent 
protection that is required by the particular transformer - service 
entrance circuit.  22kAIC  minimum is usually what is needed to meet a 
200 Amp service supply side connection.


If you have a residential account with PG then Greenbook section 6 is 
the equipment you need to meet.

If you have a commercial account with PG then Greenbook section 7.

I just proposed to PG to use a Eaton (Cooper) B-Line CIR 124TB as 
you'll need test bypass blocks as per the Greenbook for commercial.


I plan to follow Bill Hennesey's advice and use Ilsco Splice Taps for 
the "T" - I plan on using a steel J-box as I'm outdoor in the sun.


Then I feed to an Eaton 200 Amp Heavy Duty Safety Switch for the solar 
with a combined fuse/switch AIC of 200kA


Then I feed also to a Main Panel with a breaker/panel rated to 22 AIK - 
some homeline panels meet this criteria and many standard main breaker 
Square D and Siemens panels can be found for this.


That's it from my end - just submitted this to PG this morning and 
will drop by and check with my AJH this week to make sure it all works 
for everyone.


Hope that helps.

Best,

Jeff




I just sent my PG proposal

frenergy wrote on 11/4/19 8:01 AM:

After ruminating on Jeff's inquiry about various ways to do a supply 
side connection, I came up with the attached drawing. Verbal 
descriptions are harder for me to wrap my head around. This is in PG 
territory, its 3 phase and I too am trying to avoid the extra cost of 
higher Amp panels. Please pick it apart.


Thanks,

Bill

Feather River Solar Electric
Bill Battagin, Owner
4291 Nelson St.
Taylorsville, CA 95983
530.284.7849
CA Lic 874049
www.frenergy.net





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Re: [RE-wrenches] Solar Ready Service Panel vs adding Supply Side connection?

[Jeff Clearwater]

Hey William,

That exact unit is actually where I started this journey but PG will not 
accept that Solarready residential unit because it’s a commercial account and 
anything over 200 A in a commercial account requires a CT cabinet. So to avoid 
CTs we need to separate out the 200 amp meter socket.

I could feed that unit with 200 Amos after a 200 A Meter\Main but the combined 
cost would be high. 
Best,

Jeff

Sent from my iPhone

> On Oct 23, 2019, at 10:59 AM, William Miller  wrote:
> 
> Jeff:
>  
> Would a class 320, solar-ready, meter/main combo be approved for this 
> commercial application?  Here is a link to a product we have used in 
> residential applications.  It offers through-the-jaws metering at 400 amps 
> peak, 320 amps continuous.
>  
> William
>  
>  
> Miller Solar
> 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422
> 805-438-5600
> www.millersolar.com
> CA Lic. 773985
>  
> From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On 
> Behalf Of Jeff Clearwater
> Sent: Wednesday, October 23, 2019 9:11 AM
> To: RE-wrenches
> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] SolarReady Service Panel vs adding Supply Side 
> connection?
>  
> Hey Jay,
> 
> Yes so you were on to it - but with the addition of having that downstream of 
> a separate 200 AMP meter box and 200 A Main that works :)  Otherwise PG 
> would call it a 400 Amp service which for commercial accounts means having to 
> have CTs for the metering.
> 
> Thanks!,
> 
> Jeff
> 
> Jay wrote on 10/17/19 3:38 PM:
> 
> 
> What about installing a 200 amp breaker in the 400 amp buss box?  
>  
> We talk a lot about doing it for smaller boxes, is there a reason it won’t 
> work here?
>  
> Jay
> Peltz power
> 
> 
> On Oct 17, 2019, at 1:30 PM, Glenn Burt  wrote:
> 
> 
> Hi Jeff,
>  
> Seems to me if allowed in your jurisdiction, you might be best served by 
> installing a new 200A fused service disconnect ahead of the existing main 
> service panel. Or even a 400A one to allow for additional work inside (CT’s), 
> then perform a supply side connection in it. Some manufacturers of switchgear 
> have an option for lugs that accept multiple conductors, so no piercing of 
> conductors needs to happen.
>  
> Good luck,
> Glenn
>  
> From: RE-wrenches  On Behalf Of 
> Jeff Clearwater
> Sent: Thursday, October 17, 2019 3:20 PM
> To: RE-wrenches 
> Subject: [RE-wrenches] SolarReady Service Panel vs adding Supply Side 
> connection?
>  
> Esteemed Wrenches,
> 
> I am in need of changing out an existing 200 Amp service entrance in order to 
> accommodate a bus capable of handling a a 200 Amp Solar backfeed (41 KW 
> system) .  
> 
> PG is upgrading the transformer to handle the backfeed but when I proposed 
> a Siemens SolarReady 400 Amp service entrance they couldn't approve it cause 
> since the building is a shop - they classify it as commercial and require a 
> panel that can handle CTs when there is a 400 Amp service involved.
> 
> Anyone else faced with this have solutions?  What is the cheapest equipment I 
> can provide to satisfy all requirements?
> 
> We don't need to upgrade the existing 200 amp service entrance equipment for 
> load purposes - only to meet the bus requirements of backfeed.
> 
> Would it be cheaper and easier to use the existing (or new) 200 Amp 
> residential panel - not call it a 400 Amp upgrade but simply add a 200 Amp 
> Supply Side Connection?  Suggested equipment to do that in the most 
> economical manner?
> 
> Any help well appreciated!
> 
> Jeff 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> ~~~
> Jeff Clearwater
> Village Power Design
> linkedin 
> www.villagepowerdesign.com
> cell - 413-559-9763
> ~~~
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Re: [RE-wrenches] 600Vdc Transfer Switch Between Charge Controller and GT Inverter

[Jeff Clearwater]

Hey Matt,

See Morningstar's

TS-MPPT-60-600V-48-DB-TR

https://www.morningstarcorp.com/products/tristar-mppt-600v/

Hope that helps!

Jeff

~~~
Jeff Clearwater
Village Power Design
linkedin <https://www.linkedin.com/in/jeff-clearwater-0622a312/>
www.villagepowerdesign.com <http://www.villagepowerdesign.com>
cell - 413-559-9763
~~~

Matt Sherald wrote on 10/22/19 9:07 AM:


Hi All,

I've been asked to review a GT-BBUS that was installed with a DC to AC 
ratio of 2.14. The system owner is frustrated b/c his 9.2-kW of PV  is 
bottlenecked by an 80A MPPT (~4,300W).  The inverter is a XW-5548 so 
there is a second bottleneck to overcome even if an additional CC were 
added.


My inclination is to install a GT inverter for half the array and make 
a separate point of connection.  I have considered adding a transfer 
switch on the PV conductors to allow the owner to toggle between this 
new GT inverter and the existing CC.  I thought that having the option 
would be of benefit during extended outages with little sun.


I'd be curious to know if anyone has had to solve a problem similar to 
this one and if they were able to find a suitable switch.  To-date, I 
have not located a good transfer switch or breaker assembly with 
handle-tie etc...  Any thoughts are greatly appreciated.


--
Matt Sherald
PIMBY Energy, LLC
NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer®
304-704-5943

www.getpimby.blogspot.com <http://www.getpimby.blogspot.com>
www.getpimby.com <http://www.getpimby.com>



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~~~
Jeff Clearwater
Village Power Design
linkedin <https://www.linkedin.com/in/jeff-clearwater-0622a312/>
www.villagepowerdesign.com <http://www.villagepowerdesign.com>
cell - 413-559-9763
~~~
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Re: [RE-wrenches] SolarReady Service Panel vs adding Supply Side connection?

[Jeff Clearwater]

Hey Jay,

Yes so you were on to it - but with the addition of having that 
downstream of a separate 200 AMP meter box and 200 A Main that works :) 
Otherwise PG would call it a 400 Amp service which for commercial 
accounts means having to have CTs for the metering.


Thanks!,

Jeff

Jay wrote on 10/17/19 3:38 PM:


What about installing a 200 amp breaker in the 400 amp buss box?

We talk a lot about doing it for smaller boxes, is there a reason it 
won’t work here?


Jay
Peltz power


On Oct 17, 2019, at 1:30 PM, Glenn Burt  wrote:



Hi Jeff,

Seems to me if allowed in your jurisdiction, you might be best served 
by installing a new 200A fused service disconnect ahead of the 
existing main service panel. Or even a 400A one to allow for 
additional work inside (CT’s), then perform a supply side connection 
in it. Some manufacturers of switchgear have an option for lugs that 
accept multiple conductors, so no piercing of conductors needs to happen.


Good luck,

Glenn

*From:*RE-wrenches  *On 
Behalf Of *Jeff Clearwater

*Sent:* Thursday, October 17, 2019 3:20 PM
*To:* RE-wrenches 
*Subject:* [RE-wrenches] SolarReady Service Panel vs adding Supply 
Side connection?


Esteemed Wrenches,

I am in need of changing out an existing 200 Amp service entrance in 
order to accommodate a bus capable of handling a a 200 Amp Solar 
backfeed (41 KW system) .


PG is upgrading the transformer to handle the backfeed but when I 
proposed a Siemens SolarReady 400 Amp service entrance they couldn't 
approve it cause since the building is a shop - they classify it as 
commercial and require a panel that can handle CTs when there is a 
400 Amp service involved.


Anyone else faced with this have solutions?  What is the cheapest 
equipment I can provide to satisfy all requirements?


We don't need to upgrade the existing 200 amp service entrance 
equipment for load purposes - only to meet the bus requirements of 
backfeed.


Would it be cheaper and easier to use the existing (or new) 200 Amp 
residential panel - not call it a 400 Amp upgrade but simply add a 
200 Amp Supply Side Connection? Suggested equipment to do that in the 
most economical manner?


Any help well appreciated!

Jeff







--
~~~

Jeff Clearwater
Village Power Design
linkedin <https://www.linkedin.com/in/jeff-clearwater-0622a312/>
www.villagepowerdesign.com <http://www.villagepowerdesign.com>
cell - 413-559-9763
~~~

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Re: [RE-wrenches] SolarReady Service Panel vs adding Supply Side connection?

[Jeff Clearwater]

Thanks August,

Yes so August has illuminated an alternative to the J-box supply side 
tap approach that uses standard equipment and a load side connection but 
still satisfies it being considered a 200 A connection by PG - hence 
no need for a service upgrade and CTs for commercial accounts as 
required for 400 Amp services.


PG defines the service rating amperage based on the enclosure rating 
of the first piece of equipment the service hits. See section 1.14 in 
the Greenbook:


https://www.pge.com/includes/docs/pdfs/mybusiness/customerservice/startstop/newconstruction/greenbook/servicerequirements/greenbook_manual_full.pdf 



Approach 1: Supply Side:  200 A Meter Socket > J-box (such as this 
<https://www.ideadigitalcontent.com/files/11028/784572230569_SS.pdf> ) > 
200A fused Disconnect for Solar & > 200A Panel Board for Loads


Approach 2:  Load Side:  200 A Meter Socket > 200 A Main Breaker > 400 
Rated Bus with 200 A Main and PV on load side.


Both accomplish not upgrading the service and not requiring CTs.  They 
both are fairly inexpensive with the right equipment.


One thing I'm not clear on is the AIC rating neeeded for the equipment 
in either scenario as PG is upgrading to a 50KVA transformer. Will the 
10,000 AIC rating of the J-box I listed fly?


Others? Any other code considerations that might sway me before I ask my 
AHJ and PG which they prefer?


Thanks!

Jeff


August Goers wrote on 10/23/19 7:35 AM:


Replying on list, I had mistakenly only replied to Jeff off list. -August

On Wed, Oct 23, 2019 at 6:26 AM August Goers <mailto:aug...@luminalt.com>> wrote:


Hi Jeff - I think technically you can try a supply side connection
per NEC 705.12(A) if you can find equipment with provisions to
both feed your existing service and then the solar. Sometimes a
splice box is required.

Without knowing the configuration of the existing equipment, it's
hard to understand if that will be easier overall compared to just
going the route where you supply a 200 A rated meter socket (maybe
you already have this?) and 200 A main breaker panel (with no
loads) and then a 400 A bused panel to connect both your loads and
the PV system.

August


    On Mon, Oct 21, 2019 at 11:52 AM Jeff Clearwater
mailto:je...@villagepowerdesign.com>> wrote:

Hey August, Jay, and Burt and all,

Thanks for the great input! and I'm sorry if I wasn't clearer.

They are not asking for 400 Amps - I suggested it as that was
the rating of the solar ready panel I specified.

They are just saying IF it's 400 Amps then they need room for
CTs cause it's a shop and hence residential equipment is not
approved.

So as August and Glenn indicate below - perhaps the easiest is
a 200 AMP meter can with a Supply side line.  That does throw
it back to my AJH to approve but that is pretty standardI
would hope.  It also requires the variance letter from PG

I'm running 5 SB7.7s at 32 Amps each - so 160 AMPS of solar input.

So If I supply a 200 A meter can with supply side lugs that I
can feed into a 200 A fused disconnect and solar distribution
panel and keep the existing 200 Amp panel box fed by the 200
Amp main breaker - any reason that won't work?

OR does anyone know of a commercial 400 AMP solar ready meter
base with 2 200 Amp feeds - one for solar and one for loads
that does allow room for CTs?

Thanks,

Jeff

August Goers wrote on 10/17/19 4:35 PM:


Hi Jeff -

PG defines the service rating amperage based on the
enclosure rating of the first piece of equipment the service
hits. See section 1.14 in the Greenbook:


https://www.pge.com/includes/docs/pdfs/mybusiness/customerservice/startstop/newconstruction/greenbook/servicerequirements/greenbook_manual_full.pdf


This might be why they insist that you need a 400 A service
just because you want a 400 A rated bus. The easy way around
it is to supply a 200 A rated meter socket and main
disconnect, then feed a 400 A sub panel.

A meter/main like the Eaton MBEB200BTS might also work for
you:

https://www.homedepot.com/p/Eaton-200-Amp-BR-Type-Main-Breaker-Meter-Breaker-without-Distribution-EUSERC-MBEB200BTS/100555147


August
Luminalt


Hi Jeff,

Seems to me if allowed in your jurisdiction, you might be
best served by installing a new 200A fused service disconnect
ahead of the existing main service panel. Or even a 400A one
to allow for additional work inside (CT’s), then perform a
supply side connection in it. Some manufacturers of
switchgear have an option for lugs that accept multiple
conductors, so no piercing of conductors needs to happen.

Good luc