Re: [silk] Anyone who works 40-hour weeks?
On Thu, Mar 22, 2012 at 1:57 PM, ss wrote: > Something is bound to give, sooner or later. This doesn't work very well for the industry either. When people are forced into doing something, they begin to hate their unjust lives, and in the process lose their capacity to act ethically because they increasingly view the world through a harsh lens of real politik. I find it very common in India, and to a slightly lesser degree in the US, but not so much in Europe that people choose to work in IT mostly because of the money, and thus develop a mercenary attitude. They are bright individuals, but they don't attempt to act ethically, or advance the state of the art - they are merely going about making more money, in any way possible. This leads to a very vicious promotion chasing culture where people don't really care about doing the right thing. I've known IIT educated programmers who should know better who deliberately introduced bugs into code or performed other unethical acts so that they may pretend to fix it and can claim false success. This isn't very different from the love that middle class Indians had for the medical profession in the '80s when it paid better than any other qualification. The result: a number of clinics that seem more interested in robbing the patient of his money than in performing the cure. Under this system it become hard to do good work even if personally one isn't ethically challenged. Ironically, acting unethically is a major source of stress for many, since it forces them to live in an atmosphere of fear or guilt. Ultimately when the bulk of their life has been traded for cash money many Indians and Asians seem to find that they don't know what to do with the money. They have no hobbies outside of work; or a creative soul to nourish. The cliche that money is a means to an end, and not an end in itself needs reminding.
Re: [silk] Anyone who works 40-hour weeks?
> > Something is bound to give, sooner or later. Yes, the scenario is pretty much the same in TN. I went to a post-12th std career counselling fair organised by the paper I worked in. The first session was like watching a messiah in action. Parents and children in a packed auditorium looking up to this one person on the stage. Each parent or child stood up to say one number - the 12th standard percentage. And this guy, after a moment of reflection, will pronounce the name of the engineering college and the stream they could hope to get admission in. Predictions of non-IT streams meant droopy faces and defeated bodies. This man is a self-styled expert on admission process, question papers, and exams. The next session had three people from the IT sector. I was arguing, what is the use of having such a session for someone just in 12th, it made more sense for students in the final year. Mistaken. That was the other session which had a full house. The remaining sessions, where alternative careers were discussed had some ten to fifteen people attending. It did feel like something was bound to give. But what I encountered when I reported on the sector didn't feel like it. Perhaps it was because you speak to individuals, and for them it is their story. And it is just one part, however important, of their complex lives. Then this 30,000 feet astronaut view didn't make much sense. It does have some merit, but kinda doesn't fit at the same time. Am reading Mr. Palomar by Calvino now. It has some of the same struggle - the complex and sometimes confusing relationship between micro and macro.
Re: [silk] Anyone who works 40-hour weeks?
On Thursday 22 Mar 2012 8:17:08 am Sruthi Krishnan wrote: > . I remember a discussion where we actually considered asking for > an on-call medical help for a team of roughly 20 people, largely 21- > 23-year-olds. Later, when I reported on technology I spoke to this guy > who would send all his clothes to be washed to his home in South Tamil > Nadu every week because he just didn't have time. The hefty pay packet > compensating for everything else, including no time to potter around > clotheslines, was accepted as gospel. > > But the pay packet did mean financial independence. I think "Information technology", which contributed 16% to Karnataka state's income last year is actually skewing things socially in India, ceratinly in Karnataka. I think others on Silk List (Chris Kelty and Carol?) have studied aspects of this in the past. Anyhow here is my take. The Indian social structure is "families" and the family gets financial independence from a young person who gets a godd salary. Because the "Infotech" sector - be it BPO jobs or something different assure the entire family of a better life there is a huge push towards those careers from high school and increasingly from middle school. In effect this is a "tailback effect" on society For a middle class father with two or three children, an awkward teenage son or daughter becomes a cash cow in just 4 years and at the very least eases the burden on the father. The desire to make sure that the son/daughter actually gets a seat in a college that will assure him/her of an IT sector job drives the rush for Physics and Maths. And because of this rush there is a proliferation of "tuition classes" that the child must attend from 6 AM before school and again from 6 PM after school. Even so called 'International Schools" based in huge out of town campuses with all kinds of sports facilities finally give up on the sport because their kids too must go through this venturi. The pressure is so high that its beginning to tell on children in India, especially Karnataka. The place has gone crazy. Suicide rates and drop out rates are up. Parents who are able to support their children longer are backing out and letting their own children do what they want, but the vast mass of parents in an India with a youth bulge are aiming for that Infotech job. Little wonder that the kids who get in are ready to tire out everyone else by working form 8 AM to midnight. Naturally any employer or boss will prefer the guy who works 16 hours a day for the same salary compared to the lazy bum who needs a break after piffling 12 hours and needs weekends off to boot. It makes for a dog eat dog world. Something is bound to give, sooner or later. shiv
Re: [silk] Anyone who works 40-hour weeks?
> I get the feeling that tens of thousands of young enthusiastic Indians have > been "had" and taken for a ride by the "Info tech" sector. All young Indians > join with their heads full of "Work is worship", "Duty first" stuff. If the > pay > is low they soon learn that work need not be worshiped that much. But if > salaries are insanely high - people are driven to think that they need to put > in as much work as they think the salary is worth - or else the employer > implies the same thing. > > Especially in India where young people have family support from parents newly > freed from paying college fees proudly encourage their clever baby to earn > his gi-normous salary and fully support his busting his butt and having no > life outside of work as an apt follow on to his 6 AM to 9 PM tuitions > schedule that he had before he got into college. Agree (nodding head vigorously). A 21-year-old girl collapsed in a meeting for she had some gynaec issues. Another girl had low bp. And so on. I remember a discussion where we actually considered asking for an on-call medical help for a team of roughly 20 people, largely 21- 23-year-olds. Later, when I reported on technology I spoke to this guy who would send all his clothes to be washed to his home in South Tamil Nadu every week because he just didn't have time. The hefty pay packet compensating for everything else, including no time to potter around clotheslines, was accepted as gospel. But the pay packet did mean financial independence. Speaking for myself, the money I earned gave me a cushion supporting my move into journalism. And then there's another former colleague who continues in the same sector, working the same crazy hours, hoping someday to be an academic. Here's hoping.
Re: [silk] Anyone who works 40-hour weeks?
On Thu, Mar 22, 2012 at 7:54 AM, Sruthi Krishnan wrote: > You are right, that was a major reason, especially since home meant no A/C > and > internet, and in Chennai that meant something. > Hah! +1 to that :-)
Re: [silk] Anyone who works 40-hour weeks?
> Were they all singles ? If you have a family and kids - then you have > to stick to a routine, and your life gets defined by it (not the > routine, but by the family) . Its mostly single men and women who do > long and extended hours...i.e. life defined by work. > In the team I was working with, they were all single and the exceptions were men who had someone taking care of the family. You are right, that was a major reason, especially since home meant no A/C and internet, and in Chennai that meant something. But later I found that in other projects there were people with a family too who worked like this. They couldn't seem to eke out a space for their routine.
Re: [silk] Anyone who works 40-hour weeks?
On Thursday 22 Mar 2012 2:42:39 am Srini RamaKrishnan wrote: > There's no shortage of jobs that will turn you single if you let them. > I once worked in consulting where everyone with at least five years in > the firm was a divorcee, or a drunk or a serial credit card debtor or > all of them. When I first went to the UK in the 1980s I deliberately applied for and got a job that entailed my being a trainee surgeon on call every alternate day. That translated to working 132 hours and 40 hours every alternate week i.e an average of over 85 hours per week. For an unmarried young me it made sense because I was doing operations in numbers that few people can hope to do in any other system. The system was made illegal in a few years when it was realised that tired doctors were making mistakes. But I found a cultural difference in the work ethos I had been taught and what was practised in the UK. I had been taught these vague ideas that "Work is worship" and "Duty first". In the UK I learned that there is such a thing as "time off". When I had a free wekend I was totally free. From 5 PM Friday to 9 AM Monday nothing work related would come my way. This does not work well in private medical practice, but nevertheless it made a change from what I had been exposed to for years. I get the feeling that tens of thousands of young enthusiastic Indians have been "had" and taken for a ride by the "Info tech" sector. All young Indians join with their heads full of "Work is worship", "Duty first" stuff. If the pay is low they soon learn that work need not be worshiped that much. But if salaries are insanely high - people are driven to think that they need to put in as much work as they think the salary is worth - or else the employer implies the same thing. Especially in India where young people have family support from parents newly freed from paying college fees proudly encourage their clever baby to earn his gi-normous salary and fully support his busting his butt and having no life outside of work as an apt follow on to his 6 AM to 9 PM tuitions schedule that he had before he got into college. shiv
Re: [silk] Anyone who works 40-hour weeks?
On Wed, Mar 21, 2012 at 10:04 PM, ashok _ wrote: > Were they all singles ? If you have a family and kids - then you have > to stick to a routine, and your life gets defined by it (not the > routine, but by the family) . Its mostly single men and women who do > long and extended hours...i.e. life defined by work. There's no shortage of jobs that will turn you single if you let them. I once worked in consulting where everyone with at least five years in the firm was a divorcee, or a drunk or a serial credit card debtor or all of them. I didn't need too much prompting to walk quickly out of that place.
Re: [silk] Anyone who works 40-hour weeks?
On Tue, Mar 20, 2012 at 5:42 AM, Sruthi Krishnan wrote: >> 2. Culture and such. Depends on the environment in your company or >> work place. Sometimes you need support from others to finish tasks >> asap. Any laxness on others part (for eg: late reviews, late >> discussions etc) makes it only tougher for you etc. > > Recently, was talking to someone about my experiences managing a team > in an IT firm. The established culture was to come at around 11 and > then work late, till past midnight. I showed up at 8.30 am, cajoled, > argued but nothing worked to change that culture. A few days folks did > turn up early, and finished early, but somehow it didn't continue. And > a few others who wanted to leave early couldn't because as you said, > they needed support from others to finish. > This was a long time ago, not sure if things are the same but would be > surprised if they are not. We spoke about this because someone else > was having the same issues and was perplexed as to how to handle it. Were they all singles ? If you have a family and kids - then you have to stick to a routine, and your life gets defined by it (not the routine, but by the family) . Its mostly single men and women who do long and extended hours...i.e. life defined by work.
Re: [silk] Anyone who works 40-hour weeks?
On Tue, Mar 20, 2012 at 9:59 AM, John Sundman wrote: > Our father was a volunteer firefighter and I'm a volunteer firefighter. I > cannot imagine my wealthy brother joining his local department. I would > rather spend a weekend in a Massachusetts Firefighting Academy course about > hazardous materials then jetting to Colorado to ski down a hill. My wife > and I also run a food bank for poor people. That's a lot of hard, unpaid > work for which we rarely get a thank you. Had I hit the jackpot, I don't > think I would be doing that. > > [...] > > I don't think I've answered your question, but at least I'n the same zip > code. > You are and indeed, you have answered my unstated, underlying question. I feel there's a fine line between contentment and laziness that is easily missed. Having oscillated quite a bit on either side of that line myself, I am curious to explore where people lie on the spectrum, and what can be learned from their experiences. -Sriram
Re: [silk] Anyone who works 40-hour weeks?
On Tue, Mar 20, 2012 at 3:09 AM, Bharat Shetty wrote: > > Hmm, > > Nice article. I've been guilty of shooting beyond 40 hours a week > easily despite efforts to curb it. What efforts specifically? Desire is not effort of course, and while there can be exceptions for brief periods of time - once one decides to never dedicate one's life to a single workplace then no one usually cares to object. > 1. Working on something where you are a pro in terms of skills. Lesser > the pro you are, you have to spend time reading up on many stuff and > mastering the stuff that you counter in your daily work before > implementing and executing those stuff. The problem is if you never start working on anything else then you will never get to be a pro at anything else. There's a quote from Zorba the Greek that goes like this: Alexis Zorba: Damn it boss, I like you too much not to say it. You've got everything except one thing: madness! A man needs a little madness, or else... Basil: Or else? Alexis Zorba: ...he never dares cut the rope and be free. Perhaps it's a good thing to every few years try something you are not a pro at - once you have half a dozen or more skill sets the feeling of liberation and freedom one has is quite something else. > 2. Culture and such. Depends on the environment in your company or > work place. Sometimes you need support from others to finish tasks > asap. Any laxness on others part (for eg: late reviews, late > discussions etc) makes it only tougher for you etc. I know people who hate the apartments they live in, but never actually bother moving because it's too difficult to move, or there's a false belief that all apartments are equally bad in some way or the other. Work is the same thing - don't be afraid to quickly change two or three jobs until you find one you really like. Sometimes it becomes necessary to quit a city or a culture because the local maximum in that region is just not good enough, just like sometimes it is necessary to change neighborhoods to find a good apartment. Change is also good because it makes you aware of the really important things in your life, and the things that are just taking up space. I hate change, and I have a problem quitting a good thing when it has stopped being a good thing, but despite that I've lived in maybe 8 cities in the last 10 years, some cities were less than a year, and some cities were 2-3 years, and I know that the last decade has been phenomenal for me in terms of personal growth. Give change a chance. There is no need to accept reality as immutable. Cheeni
Re: [silk] Anyone who works 40-hour weeks?
Related: http://www.city-journal.org/html/11_1_ecstatic_capitalisms.html/ A 2001 long-form piece that examines the work culture of the dot-com community and gathers together many more related strands of how this is changing how we live. """ Allison Behr, the 29-year-old public-relations director who is showing me around, tells me that she works 11 hours a day, except during the weeks near the Christmas rush, when everyone at Sparks burns the midnight oil. In her world, this is no oddity—area legend has it that when a 24-year-old Netscape programmer told a survey company that he worked between 110 and 120 hours per week, the researcher objected that his computerized questionnaire wouldn't accept a number that big. """ """ Nineteenth-century utopian novels like Bellamy's Looking Backward and William Dean Howells's A Traveler from Altruia assumed that progress would inevitably lead to leisure, with time for hobbies, civic engagement, family, and neighborly sociability. """ """ Ecstatic capitalism has bored so deeply into the national psyche that it has even changed how Americans think of childhood. For just as every day Mom goes off to work—as did 59 percent of women with babies under one year old in 1998, vs. 31 percent in 1976—and Dad goes off to work, so baby . . . well, goes to work. While a generation ago, experts saw infancy as a time to develop healthy emotional attachments, contemporary parenting magazines and advice books are obsessed with "learning" or what Newsweek has called "building baby's brain," presumably for the demands of knowledge work. [...] After a lesson-packed infancy, the new-economy baby must begin school as early as possible. One New York City foreign-language program starts babies at six months—before they can talk—and public pressure is mounting for universal preschool for three- and four-year-olds. For today's five-year-old, a full day's work is mandatory """ ~ash On Mon, Mar 19, 2012 at 22:01, Sruthi Krishnan wrote: > http://www.salon.com/2012/03/14/bring_back_the_40_hour_work_week/singleton/ > > Fun piece. > > "The rapacious new corporate ethic was summarized by two phrases: > “churn ‘em and burn ‘em” (a term that described Microsoft’s habit of > hiring young programmers fresh out of school and working them 70 hours > a week until they dropped, and then firing them and hiring more)" > > Reminded me of the manager I encountered fresh out of college who > sincerely believed that staying at the workplace from 8 am to 10 pm is > a minimum requirement to build character. And as far as I know, IT > firms continue to live by this ethic. Are there any exceptions out > there? > > Sruthi >
Re: [silk] Anyone who works 40-hour weeks?
On Tue, Mar 20, 2012 at 08:12:34AM +0530, Sruthi Krishnan wrote: > > > > 2. Culture and such. Depends on the environment in your company or > > work place. Sometimes you need support from others to finish tasks > > asap. Any laxness on others part (for eg: late reviews, late > > discussions etc) makes it only tougher for you etc. > > Recently, was talking to someone about my experiences managing a team > in an IT firm. The established culture was to come at around 11 and > then work late, till past midnight. I showed up at 8.30 am, cajoled, That would be starting work early. A *lot* of IT work involves working alone, thinking about things. High intensity communication will happen, but most of it can (and should) be on channels which can be ignored. I would have suggested that instead of moving the day up to 0830, you should try pushing it to later. Realise that real work happens after office hours, when most of the day staff has gone away. Instead of making the entire team adjust to you, you adjust to what the team needs. I may be an exception in being an owl, but the single biggest source of stress for me is showing up to work at 9 am. My social life is constrained by the sheer physical need to sleep (Friday night to Sunday evening is reserved for catching up on the sleep I lose out on during the work week). Any socialising I can do will has to be outside those hours. What's suffering? Technical reading, photography, socialising, ... I am just too tired after the workday to indulge in anything involving significant thought, simply because I don't get enough sleep. 40 hour weeks? Well, I work 40 hours, but the wrong 40. Devdas Bhagat
Re: [silk] Anyone who works 40-hour weeks?
On Tue, Mar 20, 2012 at 8:39 AM, Udhay Shankar N wrote: > On Tue, Mar 20, 2012 at 8:12 AM, Sruthi Krishnan > wrote: > > > Recently, was talking to someone about my experiences managing a team > > in an IT firm. The established culture was to come at around 11 and > > then work late, till past midnight. I showed up at 8.30 am, cajoled, > > argued but nothing worked to change that culture. > > Pretty much the same thing happened to me with one of the teams I > worked with at Yahoo. I would show up at 9am and the only ones in the > office were the ones who hadn't left yet. Some of those folks are on > this list, and a decade later, are probably now also having their own > #oldfartmoments. :) > While you people are having your #oldfartmoments, I just got back from a "old world" coal-fired power plant and everyone shows up at work at 7:30 am (post-breakfast). Then take a 12:30 to 3pm "siesta" lunch and finally wind up work at 5pm. I was there as a vendor so had to follow that schedule for about 2 weeks. Needless to say, the silver lining was that after starting work at 7:30 am, by lunchtime I felt that I had accomplished a full day's work already! Can I say #addicted? Will try this at office, but cannot expect anyone else to show up! - Vinit
Re: [silk] Anyone who works 40-hour weeks?
On Tue, Mar 20, 2012 at 7:39 AM, Bharat Shetty wrote: > > 2. Culture and such. Depends on the environment in your company or > work place. Sometimes you need support from others to finish tasks > asap. Any laxness on others part (for eg: late reviews, late > discussions etc) makes it only tougher for you etc. Company Culture can be very misleading, I used to put in more than 70+ hours/ Week. Spend Weekends at work, a place I admired a lot for its hackers. Culture so misleading, at one given point of time had taken a health club membership just a few buildings away from my work, just to take a shower and save time. There were way too many rockstars Hackers in the company and work environment encouraged one to be. I though I need be one or I would perish. It more had a chained reaction. Just about the first 3 years I could feel the burn out, series of rejections by bosses and peers in just about anything I did or proposed. No social life except for the dinners at various open source conferences around the world or the occasional FoU camp/ meet ups. Even worse no friends outside work. It took me quite a while and hard work to change these habits. I remember seeing a poster at a former colleagues cubicle at Yahoo! guess its from Futurama "You're not paid to think. A mindless worker is a happy worker. Shut Up and Do your Job". I could see he was going through the same. Intra company work cultures drastically differ from its American Counterparts. Here are my observations on it. 0. When a company is making profits and is successful, no one within gives a damn about its culture. Or the ratio of its rockstars to employees feeling like second grade citizens. Its only when they have have a bad year, quarter they would do some soul searching. 1. Just following orders worked well for me. This one drastically cut my work hours, it was like an epiphany. 2. Hanging out with people within your age group. I was in for a reality check when I did this. Does change your social life. regards -- Ramakrishna Reddy GPG Key ID:67E226F5 Fingerprint = BA51 9241 72B9 7DBD 1A9A E717 ABB2 9BAD 67E2 26F5
Re: [silk] Anyone who works 40-hour weeks?
Sriram, Thank you for asking. Comments within. jrs On Mar 19, 2012, at 9:57 PM, Sriram ET. wrote: > On Mon, Mar 19, 2012 at 8:15 PM, John Sundman wrote: > > But remember also, Data General was the place memorialized by Tracy Kidder in > his book Soul of a New Machine, which described pretty accurately both the > cynical manipulation of young computer engineers by management, along the > lines of "churn 'em & burn 'em", and the willing collusion of the young > engineers in their own manipulation. > > I had 'Wish Listed' the book the last time you mentioned the book (I think). > This time, I will buy and read it :-) I think it's a great book and holds up remarkably well 30+ years later. In any event, it has become a classic. > > I cannot imagine any scenario in which I would willingly work that way for > anybody else again. > > How much of this you think is due to the paltry pay off from past > experiences? If you had hit the jackpot at some point, do you think your > attitude would have shaped up differently? That is a very interesting question and I don't know the answer. I do suspect that if, say, the 35-year-old John had hit the jackpot and become vastly wealthy, he would today be a person that the current John would consider an asshole. Or, if not an asshole, at least a more shallow person than I think I am today. For one thing, I'm very proud of the books I've written. I think they're legitimate art. They were all born of failure. Had I not experience repeatedly dashed dreams & repeated bone-crushing disappointment (I've been laid off -- I think you say "made redundant"-- several times), I don' think I could have written books nearly as passionate and honest. Who knows? I do have a younger brother who hit the jackpot (on Wall Street, not in Silicon Valley) when he was about 35. He has tens of millions of dollars and owns 3 houses; he used to own a share in a private jet. He recently got sacked from his CEO job, and is not looking for work. He has many $$ millions saved, recently got divorced. His youngest child is in in college. He's spending his time flying here to go skiing, then there to play golf, etc. He is my brother and he's nice to my daughter and we work together to take care of our aging parents, so I like him well enough. But to me he seems a really boring person. I don't know if he's ever had an actual idea, other than about how to make more money. When we get together ever year at the family reunion, we talk empty bullshit. Our father was a volunteer firefighter and I'm a volunteer firefighter. I cannot imagine my wealthy brother joining his local department. I would rather spend a weekend in a Massachusetts Firefighting Academy course about hazardous materials then jetting to Colorado to ski down a hill. My wife and I also run a food bank for poor people. That's a lot of hard, unpaid work for which we rarely get a thank you. Had I hit the jackpot, I don't think I would be doing that. I used to ask my brother, "Why the hell do you keep going in to your stupid office? You don't need any more money. Is this really what you want to do with your life?" And he would say, "It's the only think I know how to do, and I'm good at it. Plus, they pay me obscene amounts of money to do it." To which I would reply, "Well, you're a success and I'm a failure; you have millions and I'm flat broke. But I'll tell you one thing that you don't know: Life is short. You shouldn't waste it on bullishit." I don't think I've answered your question, but at least I'n the same zip code. Kind regards, jrs > >
Re: [silk] Anyone who works 40-hour weeks?
On Tue, Mar 20, 2012 at 8:12 AM, Sruthi Krishnan wrote: > Recently, was talking to someone about my experiences managing a team > in an IT firm. The established culture was to come at around 11 and > then work late, till past midnight. I showed up at 8.30 am, cajoled, > argued but nothing worked to change that culture. Pretty much the same thing happened to me with one of the teams I worked with at Yahoo. I would show up at 9am and the only ones in the office were the ones who hadn't left yet. Some of those folks are on this list, and a decade later, are probably now also having their own #oldfartmoments. :) Udhay -- ((Udhay Shankar N)) ((udhay @ pobox.com)) ((www.digeratus.com))
Re: [silk] Anyone who works 40-hour weeks?
> > 2. Culture and such. Depends on the environment in your company or > work place. Sometimes you need support from others to finish tasks > asap. Any laxness on others part (for eg: late reviews, late > discussions etc) makes it only tougher for you etc. Recently, was talking to someone about my experiences managing a team in an IT firm. The established culture was to come at around 11 and then work late, till past midnight. I showed up at 8.30 am, cajoled, argued but nothing worked to change that culture. A few days folks did turn up early, and finished early, but somehow it didn't continue. And a few others who wanted to leave early couldn't because as you said, they needed support from others to finish. This was a long time ago, not sure if things are the same but would be surprised if they are not. We spoke about this because someone else was having the same issues and was perplexed as to how to handle it. Sruthi
Re: [silk] Anyone who works 40-hour weeks?
Hmm, Nice article. I've been guilty of shooting beyond 40 hours a week easily despite efforts to curb it. I think it boils down to these also most of the times (may be limited to my limited experience of working in only software companies): 1. Working on something where you are a pro in terms of skills. Lesser the pro you are, you have to spend time reading up on many stuff and mastering the stuff that you counter in your daily work before implementing and executing those stuff. 2. Culture and such. Depends on the environment in your company or work place. Sometimes you need support from others to finish tasks asap. Any laxness on others part (for eg: late reviews, late discussions etc) makes it only tougher for you etc. I wonder if there are any Startup guys and Code coolies on this list. Usually, these are the folks whose work hours extends past 40 hour limit from what I've observed. Anyone from this category wanna share your experiences on this and prove me wrong ? Regards, - Bharat | https://twitter.com/cerebraltangent On Mon, Mar 19, 2012 at 8:37 PM, Suresh Ramasubramanian wrote: > Physically well rounded - certainly > > -- > srs (blackberry) > > -Original Message- > From: Udhay Shankar N > Sender: silklist-bounces+suresh=hserus@lists.hserus.net > Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2012 20:34:26 > To: > Reply-To: silklist@lists.hserus.net > Subject: Re: [silk] Anyone who works 40-hour weeks? > > On Mon, Mar 19, 2012 at 8:13 PM, Srini RamaKrishnan wrote: > >> I see pillars of individual identity like a stool with legs. The more legs >> you have, the more stable the stool is. If you invest all your identity into >> only one pillar, then what happens when it breaks away is the stool loses >> balance. > > I concur, but of course you knew that, as this is one of the topics > that has recurred many many times over the course of many many beers > over the years. :) > > IOW, a well rounded personality is a (physically and psychologically) > healthy one. There is a reason why cliches become cliches... > > I wonder what Thaths has to add to this. > > Udhay > -- > ((Udhay Shankar N)) ((udhay @ pobox.com)) ((www.digeratus.com)) >
Re: [silk] Anyone who works 40-hour weeks?
On Mon, Mar 19, 2012 at 8:15 PM, John Sundman wrote: > But remember also, Data General was the place memorialized by Tracy Kidder > in his book Soul of a New Machine, which described pretty accurately both > the cynical manipulation of young computer engineers by management, along > the lines of "churn 'em & burn 'em", and the willing collusion of the > young engineers in their own manipulation. I had 'Wish Listed' the book the last time you mentioned the book (I think). This time, I will buy and read it :-) > I cannot imagine any scenario in which I would willingly work that way for > anybody else again. > How much of this you think is due to the paltry pay off from past experiences? If you had hit the jackpot at some point, do you think your attitude would have shaped up differently?
Re: [silk] Anyone who works 40-hour weeks?
Physically well rounded - certainly -- srs (blackberry) -Original Message- From: Udhay Shankar N Sender: silklist-bounces+suresh=hserus@lists.hserus.net Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2012 20:34:26 To: Reply-To: silklist@lists.hserus.net Subject: Re: [silk] Anyone who works 40-hour weeks? On Mon, Mar 19, 2012 at 8:13 PM, Srini RamaKrishnan wrote: > I see pillars of individual identity like a stool with legs. The more legs > you have, the more stable the stool is. If you invest all your identity into > only one pillar, then what happens when it breaks away is the stool loses > balance. I concur, but of course you knew that, as this is one of the topics that has recurred many many times over the course of many many beers over the years. :) IOW, a well rounded personality is a (physically and psychologically) healthy one. There is a reason why cliches become cliches... I wonder what Thaths has to add to this. Udhay -- ((Udhay Shankar N)) ((udhay @ pobox.com)) ((www.digeratus.com))
Re: [silk] Anyone who works 40-hour weeks?
On Mon, Mar 19, 2012 at 8:13 PM, Srini RamaKrishnan wrote: > I see pillars of individual identity like a stool with legs. The more legs > you have, the more stable the stool is. If you invest all your identity into > only one pillar, then what happens when it breaks away is the stool loses > balance. I concur, but of course you knew that, as this is one of the topics that has recurred many many times over the course of many many beers over the years. :) IOW, a well rounded personality is a (physically and psychologically) healthy one. There is a reason why cliches become cliches... I wonder what Thaths has to add to this. Udhay -- ((Udhay Shankar N)) ((udhay @ pobox.com)) ((www.digeratus.com))
Re: [silk] Anyone who works 40-hour weeks?
Early in my so-called career I used to work very long hours. At my first "real" job -- technical writer at computer maker Data General --it was because with no formal training in computer science, or programming, or technical writing, I really didn't know what the hell I was doing, and I was starting late -- I was 27 or 28 years old. So, like the Red Queen, I had to run hard just to stay in place. I didn't want to get fired, and I had a lot to learn. But remember also, Data General was the place memorialized by Tracy Kidder in his book Soul of a New Machine, which described pretty accurately both the cynical manipulation of young computer engineers by management, along the lines of "churn 'em & burn 'em", and the willing collusion of the young engineers in their own manipulation. The "Hardy Boys" & "Microkids" of Data General were willing to work around the clock for months on end because of the rush they got from it. It might just be the puritan work ethic, so-called, but signing on does provide positive re-enforcement, not just negative/guilt pressure. Tom West, the central figure in Soul of a New Machine, described it as 'pinball'. Your reward for winning is that you get to play again, nothing more than that. After Data General I worked at a succession of companies in their start-up phases, where working around the clock was more or less expected, but there was the added incentive of big stock options, so if the company succeeded you might get rich. None of those companies is still in existence. At only one of them, Sun Microsystems, where I worked for nearly nine years, did my stock options amount to anything. I generally cashed in my options every year or two, and they netted me about $5,000 (perhaps $10,000 in today's money)/year. Certainly welcome money, but nothing close to the scale of making me rich. But in every other case my stock options proved worthless, or nearly so (I made $2,000, total, from my MassComp stock). [I tried to capture the dynamics of the hacker rush/burnout curve in my novel Acts of the Apostles, for whatever that's worth.] I cannot imagine any scenario in which I would willingly work that way for anybody else again. Although I might work that hard for myself, if I felt inspired & thought I had a good idea. jrs On Mar 19, 2012, at 10:15 AM, Eugen Leitl wrote: > On Mon, Mar 19, 2012 at 07:31:45PM +0530, Sruthi Krishnan wrote: > >> Reminded me of the manager I encountered fresh out of college who >> sincerely believed that staying at the workplace from 8 am to 10 pm is >> a minimum requirement to build character. And as far as I know, IT >> firms continue to live by this ethic. Are there any exceptions out >> there? > > It seems more like the trappings of protestant/puritan work ethic. > Many europeans see long working hours as self-defeating. >
Re: [silk] Anyone who works 40-hour weeks?
On Mon, Mar 19, 2012 at 7:31 PM, Sruthi Krishnan wrote: > http://www.salon.com/2012/03/14/bring_back_the_40_hour_work_week/singleton/ > > Fun piece. > > "The rapacious new corporate ethic was summarized by two phrases: > “churn ‘em and burn ‘em” (a term that described Microsoft’s habit of > hiring young programmers fresh out of school and working them 70 hours > a week until they dropped, and then firing them and hiring more)" > > Reminded me of the manager I encountered fresh out of college who > sincerely believed that staying at the workplace from 8 am to 10 pm is > a minimum requirement to build character. And as far as I know, IT > firms continue to live by this ethic. Are there any exceptions out > there? I have consistently had Free and Frank Discussions about this at various past workplaces, with my management chain, with HR and with the CEOs. My view has always been that if you're trying to fix something by throwing midnight oil at it, you're doing it wrong. Perhaps even doing it Wrong, in the sense of being actively counter-productive - as this article posits. -- ((Udhay Shankar N)) ((udhay @ pobox.com)) ((www.digeratus.com))
Re: [silk] Anyone who works 40-hour weeks?
On Mon, Mar 19, 2012 at 3:24 PM, Srini RamaKrishnan wrote: > On Mon, Mar 19, 2012 at 3:01 PM, Sruthi Krishnan wrote: > >> >> http://www.salon.com/2012/03/14/bring_back_the_40_hour_work_week/singleton/ >> > > I've done mostly under 40 hours per week for the last 3 years, it's been > undoubtedly good for me. It's all a question of compromises one is willing > to make. > > It's also important to see your self identity as being defined by a lot > more than where and what you work on. > > Of course it wasn't always this way. > I see pillars of individual identity like a stool with legs. The more legs you have, the more stable the stool is. If you invest all your identity into only one pillar, then what happens when it breaks away is the stool loses balance. In fact the risk is even higher if these emotional legs are controlled by others. These legs could be work, family, social standing or any thing that is not in your control. They can all leave you without your consent. As with assets, it's prudent to diversify risk - to have very few emotional identifiers that are externally held is wise. If you are invested emotionally in your job, then a confrontation with a colleague or a boss can leave you feeling miserable. If you are instead invested in many activities, then it's possible to forget all the work place stress when you are out doing your other functions. If you spend 60 hours or more or any one thing in a week, then it's impossible to not feel defined by it somehow. Diversity is key. Cheeni
Re: [silk] Anyone who works 40-hour weeks?
On Mon, Mar 19, 2012 at 3:01 PM, Sruthi Krishnan wrote: > http://www.salon.com/2012/03/14/bring_back_the_40_hour_work_week/singleton/ > I've done mostly under 40 hours per week for the last 3 years, it's been undoubtedly good for me. It's all a question of compromises one is willing to make. It's also important to see your self identity as being defined by a lot more than where and what you work on. Of course it wasn't always this way.
Re: [silk] Anyone who works 40-hour weeks?
On Mon, Mar 19, 2012 at 07:31:45PM +0530, Sruthi Krishnan wrote: > Reminded me of the manager I encountered fresh out of college who > sincerely believed that staying at the workplace from 8 am to 10 pm is > a minimum requirement to build character. And as far as I know, IT > firms continue to live by this ethic. Are there any exceptions out > there? It seems more like the trappings of protestant/puritan work ethic. Many europeans see long working hours as self-defeating.
Re: [silk] Anyone who works 40-hour weeks?
I've cut down to working 4 days a week. On Mon, Mar 19, 2012 at 7:31 PM, Sruthi Krishnan wrote: > http://www.salon.com/2012/03/14/bring_back_the_40_hour_work_week/singleton/ > > Fun piece. > > "The rapacious new corporate ethic was summarized by two phrases: > “churn ‘em and burn ‘em” (a term that described Microsoft’s habit of > hiring young programmers fresh out of school and working them 70 hours > a week until they dropped, and then firing them and hiring more)" > > Reminded me of the manager I encountered fresh out of college who > sincerely believed that staying at the workplace from 8 am to 10 pm is > a minimum requirement to build character. And as far as I know, IT > firms continue to live by this ethic. Are there any exceptions out > there? > > Sruthi > >
