Re: CSliposomes ultrasonic cleaners
50/60 Hz is nowhere near ultrasonic. Methinks you be reading the power input label, not what it outputs. Ultrasound is cyclic http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soundsound pressure with a http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frequencyfrequency greater than the upper limit of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Humanhuman http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hearing_%28sense%29hearing. Although this limit varies from person to person, it is approximately 20 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hertzkilohertz (20,000 hertz) in healthy, young adults and thus, 20 kHz serves as a useful **lower** limit in describing ultrasound. You can hear 60 Hz 60 cycle hum the bane of music lovers the world round...unless it's 50 cycle hum. Like with push/pull audio amplifiers, I imagine that the sound wave pressures are both positive and negative alternating pressure/vacuum cycles. Ultrasonic Cleaner ...at the doggie brain wash frequented by jewelry. Essentially a good audio amp cranked to the max, a piezoelectric tweeter and mind bendingly screaming loud bat music, all played in a bowl of water. Ode At 09:01 AM 6/23/2010 -0500, you wrote: I have been doing some study on the mechanics of ultrasonic cleaners in relation to liposomes and I am curious of some of the ramifications: 1) Ultrasonic cleaners work by producing alternating low and high sound waves. The unit I am using does 50/60 Hz. The low phase produces the bubble and the high phase implodes the bubbles which produces the cleaning action so desired in such cleaners. Question: I can see the low phase producing liposomes, but how are the liposomes immune to the high phase that normally ruptures bubbles? doug -- The Silver List is a moderated forum for discussing Colloidal Silver. Rules and Instructions: http://www.silverlist.org Unsubscribe: mailto:silver-list-requ...@eskimo.com?subject=unsubscribe Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/silver-list@eskimo.com/maillist.html Off-Topic discussions: mailto:silver-off-topic-l...@eskimo.com List Owner: Mike Devour mailto:mdev...@eskimo.com
Re: CSliposomes ultrasonic cleaners
Brooks said that liposomals made with blenders are only about 25% absorbable, compared to 75% in the cleaners. dee On 23 Jun 2010, at 20:58, Nenah Sylver wrote: I have a vitamix blender and wonder how effective such a blender would be on producing liposomes? Note that the vitamix is no ordinary blender! Blades reach 264 mph one way and they can be instantaeously reversed at the same speed to produce a blade affect collisions in excess of 500 mph. . . . It seems to me that the vitamix performance might approach the advertised pressures/forces of Livon Lab's 1700 psi liposomal making procedure though I don't know how to equate mph vs psi? Granted, the vitamix because it can produce high temps, one would need to use care to make lip-C via pulsing and other ways, but that is easy to get around, I should think. = Doug, Someone wrote me privately and said he got good results with his VitaMix. People who took his Lip. C. made in the VitaMix got better. Nenah -- The Silver List is a moderated forum for discussing Colloidal Silver. Rules and Instructions: http://www.silverlist.org Unsubscribe: mailto:silver-list-requ...@eskimo.com?subject=unsubscribe Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/silver-list@eskimo.com/maillist.html Off-Topic discussions: mailto:silver-off-topic-l...@eskimo.com List Owner: Mike Devour mailto:mdev...@eskimo.com
Re: CSliposomes ultrasonic cleaners
I do love this list for the oh-so-clever people we have on it! Fascinating stuff. dee On 23 Jun 2010, at 21:08, Norton, Steve wrote: Doug, I am not an expert but here is my opinion on your questions. 1) I think that your ultrasonic transducer operates at a frequency around 42 kHz and not 50/60 Hz. The bubbles that rupture are bubbles of gas. The liposome bubbles that form consist of a phospholipid shell with a water center. Since the liposome bubble is not gaseous it does not rupture in the same way that gas bubbles do. That does not mean that shear forces do not rupture some lipisomes but I expect that the liposomes reform after the shear forces go away. 2) The ultrasonic waves apply shear forces to break the lecithin into individual phospholipids that will then form liposomes See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liposome It should be noted that formation of liposomes and nanoliposomes is not a spontaneous process. Lipid vesicles are formed when phospholipids such as lecithin are placed in water and consequently form one bilayer or a series of bilayers, each separated by water molecules, once enough energy is supplied [8]. Liposomes can be created by sonicating phospholipids in water[3]. Low shear rates create multilamellar liposomes, which have many layers like an onion. Continued high-shear sonication tends to form smaller unilamellar liposomes. In this technique, the liposome contents are the same as the contents of the aqueous phase. -- The Silver List is a moderated forum for discussing Colloidal Silver. Rules and Instructions: http://www.silverlist.org Unsubscribe: mailto:silver-list-requ...@eskimo.com?subject=unsubscribe Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/silver-list@eskimo.com/maillist.html Off-Topic discussions: mailto:silver-off-topic-l...@eskimo.com List Owner: Mike Devour mailto:mdev...@eskimo.com
CSliposomes ultrasonic cleaners
I have been doing some study on the mechanics of ultrasonic cleaners in relation to liposomes and I am curious of some of the ramifications: 1) Ultrasonic cleaners work by producing alternating low and high sound waves. The unit I am using does 50/60 Hz. The low phase produces the bubble and the high phase implodes the bubbles which produces the cleaning action so desired in such cleaners. Question: I can see the low phase producing liposomes, but how are the liposomes immune to the high phase that normally ruptures bubbles? 2) Using the cheap harbor freight ultrasonic cleaner, it is recommended to stir the solution and that the more shallow the solution, the higher the quality of liposome. Is stirring really necessary as it is so time consuming? It seems to me that the solution has natural movement all by itself from the production of the ultrasonic waves. 3) It is suggested that the best cavitation of the solution in the ultrasonic cleaner occurs when the solution is warm, plus the cavittion produces heat too. How much danger is this produced heat from ultrasonic wave production to ascorbic acid or the ascorbates' integrity over a long period of time? Is it minimal? One would logically conclude that the more heat produced, the more energetic the cavitation---would one not? If this is true, would it not be more efficient to produce liposomes with specialized instruments like sonifiers (pulsing and placing the lipo-C in ice water to keep temps low)? 4) It sounds to me that the longer one can run your lipo-C solution in a ultrasonic cleaner the better the quality of liposomes according to some of Brooks' later posts, however there is what is known as degassing in ultrasonic cleaning. Many instruction manuals for cleaners will advise you to de-gas your solution from 5-10 minutes before actually starting the cleaning process. Degassing is the initial removal of gases present in the solution. Useful cavitation occurs after the gasses have been removed from the solution leaving a vacuum in the later formed bubbles as it is written in these manuals. So it seems to me on first glance after reading this, that one would not want to extend our Lipo-C solution cavitation much longer than the recommended 6 minutes as that would degas the solution, producing an empty bubble. Is this true or am I missing some thing? 5) Finally, there seems to me, better ways to produce a liposome via sound waves. Would not lab devices known as sonifiers/sonicators/cell disruptors be a better choice since these devices produce an intense steady frequency unlike the ultrasonic cleaner? Agreed, this device would not be in the reach of the average home-made tech, but would it produce a smaller, better liposome than ultrasonic cleaners? I realize that heat generation would be a problem from such intense ultrasound involvement from a cell disruptor, but having the solution in ice and pulsing should over come this problem, eh? doug
Re: CSliposomes ultrasonic cleaners
I too would like the answers to these questions Doug. I don't think the heat thing would be a problem because the heating is minimal, I believe it is only high heat which destroys Vit C, but it would be nice to *know*. dee On 23 Jun 2010, at 15:01, polo wrote: I have been doing some study on the mechanics of ultrasonic cleaners in relation to liposomes and I am curious of some of the ramifications: 1) Ultrasonic cleaners work by producing alternating low and high sound waves. The unit I am using does 50/60 Hz. The low phase produces the bubble and the high phase implodes the bubbles which produces the cleaning action so desired in such cleaners. Question: I can see the low phase producing liposomes, but how are the liposomes immune to the high phase that normally ruptures bubbles? 2) Using the cheap harbor freight ultrasonic cleaner, it is recommended to stir the solution and that the more shallow the solution, the higher the quality of liposome. Is stirring really necessary as it is so time consuming? It seems to me that the solution has natural movement all by itself from the production of the ultrasonic waves. 3) It is suggested that the best cavitation of the solution in the ultrasonic cleaner occurs when the solution is warm, plus the cavittion produces heat too. How much danger is this produced heat from ultrasonic wave production to ascorbic acid or the ascorbates' integrity over a long period of time? Is it minimal? One would logically conclude that the more heat produced, the more energetic the cavitation---would one not? If this is true, would it not be more efficient to produce liposomes with specialized instruments like sonifiers (pulsing and placing the lipo-C in ice water to keep temps low)? -- The Silver List is a moderated forum for discussing Colloidal Silver. Rules and Instructions: http://www.silverlist.org Unsubscribe: mailto:silver-list-requ...@eskimo.com?subject=unsubscribe Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/silver-list@eskimo.com/maillist.html Off-Topic discussions: mailto:silver-off-topic-l...@eskimo.com List Owner: Mike Devour mailto:mdev...@eskimo.com
Re: CSliposomes ultrasonic cleaners
polo wrote: I have been doing some study on the mechanics of ultrasonic cleaners in relation to liposomes and I am curious of some of the ramifications: 1) Ultrasonic cleaners work by producing alternating low and high sound waves. The unit I am using does 50/60 Hz. The low phase produces the bubble and the high phase implodes the bubbles which produces the cleaning action so desired in such cleaners. Question: I can see the low phase producing liposomes, but how are the liposomes immune to the high phase that normally ruptures bubbles? 50/60 Hz is the line frequency the unit is specified to work with, what comes in the power cord. That is on the low end of the audio spectrum, not the high. Cleaners typically run between 20 and 30 KHz, which is above the range of hearing. The movement is basically sinusoidal, thus the amount of time above the baseline is equal to the amount under the baseline. The word phase in such a situation would refer to the difference in the angle between two waves and does not apply to these cleaners at all. Marshall -- The Silver List is a moderated forum for discussing Colloidal Silver. Rules and Instructions: http://www.silverlist.org Unsubscribe: mailto:silver-list-requ...@eskimo.com?subject=unsubscribe Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/silver-list@eskimo.com/maillist.html Off-Topic discussions: mailto:silver-off-topic-l...@eskimo.com List Owner: Mike Devour mailto:mdev...@eskimo.com
Re: CSliposomes ultrasonic cleaners
Oh, I forgot to include one other musing on this subject. I have a vitamix blender and wonder how effective such a blender would be on producing liposomes? Note that the vitamix is no ordinary blender! Blades reach 264 mph one way and they can be instantaeously reversed at the same speed to produce a blade affect collisions in excess of 500 mph. Also, the vitamix can generate so much turbulance, it can reach cooking temperatures in minutes. This is certainly no ordinary run of the mill kitchen blender. It seems to me that the vitamix performance might approach the advertised pressures/forces of Livon Lab's 1700 psi liposomal making procedure though I don't know how to equate mph vs psi? Granted, the vitamix because it can produce high temps, one would need to use care to make lip-C via pulsing and other ways, but that is easy to get around, I should think. doug
Re: CSliposomes ultrasonic cleaners
Ok, thanks for that info, but nevertheless, this tidbit does not change the fact that ultrasonic cleaners are designed to have a low and high phase. How can a liposome be immune from rupture, by the tough phospholipids membrane when compared to the ordinary bubble?? doug - Original Message - 50/60 Hz is the line frequency the unit is specified to work with, what comes in the power cord. That is on the low end of the audio spectrum, not the high. Cleaners typically run between 20 and 30 KHz, which is above the range of hearing. The movement is basically sinusoidal, thus the amount of time above the baseline is equal to the amount under the baseline. The word phase in such a situation would refer to the difference in the angle between two waves and does not apply to these cleaners at all. -- The Silver List is a moderated forum for discussing Colloidal Silver. Rules and Instructions: http://www.silverlist.org Unsubscribe: mailto:silver-list-requ...@eskimo.com?subject=unsubscribe Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/silver-list@eskimo.com/maillist.html Off-Topic discussions: mailto:silver-off-topic-l...@eskimo.com List Owner: Mike Devour mailto:mdev...@eskimo.com
Re: CSliposomes ultrasonic cleaners
By virtue of their relative sizes? Dan On Wed, Jun 23, 2010 at 2:40 PM, polo dah...@centurytel.net wrote: Ok, thanks for that info, but nevertheless, this tidbit does not change the fact that ultrasonic cleaners are designed to have a low and high phase. How can a liposome be immune from rupture, by the tough phospholipids membrane when compared to the ordinary bubble?? doug - Original Message - 50/60 Hz is the line frequency the unit is specified to work with, what comes in the power cord. That is on the low end of the audio spectrum, not the high. Cleaners typically run between 20 and 30 KHz, which is above the range of hearing. The movement is basically sinusoidal, thus the amount of time above the baseline is equal to the amount under the baseline. The word phase in such a situation would refer to the difference in the angle between two waves and does not apply to these cleaners at all. -- The Silver List is a moderated forum for discussing Colloidal Silver. Rules and Instructions: http://www.silverlist.org Unsubscribe: mailto:silver-list-requ...@eskimo.com?subject=unsubscribe Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/silver-list@eskimo.com/maillist.html Off-Topic discussions: mailto:silver-off-topic-l...@eskimo.com List Owner: Mike Devour mailto:mdev...@eskimo.com
RE: CSliposomes ultrasonic cleaners
I have a vitamix blender and wonder how effective such a blender would be on producing liposomes? Note that the vitamix is no ordinary blender! Blades reach 264 mph one way and they can be instantaeously reversed at the same speed to produce a blade affect collisions in excess of 500 mph. . . . It seems to me that the vitamix performance might approach the advertised pressures/forces of Livon Lab's 1700 psi liposomal making procedure though I don't know how to equate mph vs psi? Granted, the vitamix because it can produce high temps, one would need to use care to make lip-C via pulsing and other ways, but that is easy to get around, I should think. = Doug, Someone wrote me privately and said he got good results with his VitaMix. People who took his Lip. C. made in the VitaMix got better. Nenah Nenah Sylver, PhD electromedicine specialist and author The Rife Handbook of Frequency Therapy (2009) The Holistic Handbook of Sauna Therapy (2004) http://www.nenahsylver.com www.nenahsylver.com _ From: polo [mailto:dah...@centurytel.net] Sent: Wednesday, June 23, 2010 12:37 PM To: silver-list@eskimo.com Subject: Re: CSliposomes ultrasonic cleaners Oh, I forgot to include one other musing on this subject. doug
RE: CSliposomes ultrasonic cleaners
Doug, I am not an expert but here is my opinion on your questions. 1) I think that your ultrasonic transducer operates at a frequency around 42 kHz and not 50/60 Hz. The bubbles that rupture are bubbles of gas. The liposome bubbles that form consist of a phospholipid shell with a water center. Since the liposome bubble is not gaseous it does not rupture in the same way that gas bubbles do. That does not mean that shear forces do not rupture some lipisomes but I expect that the liposomes reform after the shear forces go away. 2) The ultrasonic waves apply shear forces to break the lecithin into individual phospholipids that will then form liposomes See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liposome It should be noted that formation of liposomes and nanoliposomes is not a spontaneous process. Lipid vesicles are formed when phospholipids such as lecithin are placed in water and consequently form one bilayer or a series of bilayers, each separated by water molecules, once enough energy is supplied [8]. Liposomes can be created by sonicating phospholipids in water[3]. Low shear rates create multilamellar liposomes, which have many layers like an onion. Continued high-shear sonication tends to form smaller unilamellar liposomes. In this technique, the liposome contents are the same as the contents of the aqueous phase. As the article states, low shear rates create multilamellar liposomes, which have many layers like an onion. The goal is to generate high shear rates to create small liposomes. This can be done in small ultrasonic cleaners as well as in large ultrasonic cleaners. The shear rate is proportional to the energy in the solution and is usually defined by the watts/volume the transducer produces. You can adjust the watts/volume by simply by changing the amount of solution you put in the ultrasonic cleaner. The reason for the stirring is that standing waves generally form in the solution. This is evidenced by ripples on the top of the solution. If the ripples are stationary. Then the desired shear forces are not moving through the solution but are stationary. To evenly apply the shear forces to all the lecithin, you must then move the lecithin around by stirring. 3) The ultrasonic cleaner is a form of sonication. See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sonication Sonication is the act of applying sound (usually ultrasound) energy to agitate particles in a sample, for various purposes. In the laboratory, it is usually applied using an ultrasonic bath or an ultrasonic probe, colloquially known as a sonicator. 4) Yes, gas in the solution reduces the effectiveness of the process because the gas bubbles absorb some of the ultrasonic energy. I don't know how long it takes to degas a solution but using distilled water for the solution will reduce the amount of dissolved gasses in the solution you start with. - Steve N From: polo [mailto:dah...@centurytel.net] Sent: Wednesday, June 23, 2010 7:02 AM To: silver-list@eskimo.com Subject: CSliposomes ultrasonic cleaners I have been doing some study on the mechanics of ultrasonic cleaners in relation to liposomes and I am curious of some of the ramifications: 1) Ultrasonic cleaners work by producing alternating low and high sound waves. The unit I am using does 50/60 Hz. The low phase produces the bubble and the high phase implodes the bubbles which produces the cleaning action so desired in such cleaners. Question: I can see the low phase producing liposomes, but how are the liposomes immune to the high phase that normally ruptures bubbles? 2) Using the cheap harbor freight ultrasonic cleaner, it is recommended to stir the solution and that the more shallow the solution, the higher the quality of liposome. Is stirring really necessary as it is so time consuming? It seems to me that the solution has natural movement all by itself from the production of the ultrasonic waves. 3) It is suggested that the best cavitation of the solution in the ultrasonic cleaner occurs when the solution is warm, plus the cavittion produces heat too. How much danger is this produced heat from ultrasonic wave production to ascorbic acid or the ascorbates' integrity over a long period of time? Is it minimal? One would logically conclude that the more heat produced, the more energetic the cavitation---would one not? If this is true, would it not be more efficient to produce liposomes with specialized instruments like sonifiers (pulsing and placing the lipo-C in ice water to keep temps low)? 4) It sounds to me that the longer one can run your lipo-C solution in a ultrasonic cleaner the better the quality of liposomes according to some of Brooks' later posts, however there is what is known as degassing in ultrasonic cleaning. Many instruction manuals for cleaners will advise you to de-gas your solution from 5-10 minutes before actually starting the cleaning process. Degassing is the initial removal of gases present
Re: CSliposomes ultrasonic cleaners
I think some clarification might help, polo. Are you saying the US cleaner cycles between low amplitude and high amplitude, or switches between two different oscillator frequencies? The switching, whatever it is, you imply takes place at the 60 hz line frequency, which would certainly simplify circuit design. Your use of the word 'phase' was just to refer to the two states the drivers switch between, right? Sometimes you have to read a little deeper between the lines, Marshall. grin Mike D. Ok, thanks for that info, but nevertheless, this tidbit does not change the fact that ultrasonic cleaners are designed to have a low and high phase. How can a liposome be immune from rupture, by the tough phospholipids membrane when compared to the ordinary bubble?? doug - Original Message - 50/60 Hz is the line frequency the unit is specified to work with, what comes in the power cord. That is on the low end of the audio spectrum, not the high. Cleaners typically run between 20 and 30 KHz, which is above the range of hearing. The movement is basically sinusoidal, thus the amount of time above the baseline is equal to the amount under the baseline. The word phase in such a situation would refer to the difference in the angle between two waves and does not apply to these cleaners at all. -- The Silver List is a moderated forum for discussing Colloidal Silver. Rules and Instructions: http://www.silverlist.org Unsubscribe: mailto:silver-list-requ...@eskimo.com?subject=unsubscribe Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/silver-list@eskimo.com/maillist.html Off-Topic discussions: mailto:silver-off-topic-l...@eskimo.com List Owner: Mike Devour mailto:mdev...@eskimo.com [Mike Devour, Citizen, Patriot, Libertarian] [mdev...@eskimo.com] [Speaking only for myself... ]
RE: CSliposomes ultrasonic cleaners
I believe that Doug is referring to the rarefaction and compression phases of the ultrasonic wave in the cleaning solution. - Steve N http://www.blackstone-ney.com/pdfs/T_Fundamentals.pdf In elastic media such as air and most solids, there is a continuous transition as a sound wave is transmitted. In non-elastic media such as water and most liquids, there is continuous transition as long as the amplitude or loudness of the sound is relatively low. As amplitude is increased, however, the magnitude of the negative pressure in the areas of rarefaction eventually becomes sufficient to cause the liquid to fracture because of the negative pressure, causing a phenomenon known as cavitation. Cavitation bubbles are created at sites of rarefaction as the liquid fractures or tears because of the negative pressure of the sound wave in the liquid. As the wave fronts pass, the cavitation bubbles oscillate under the influence of positive pressure, eventually growing to an unstable size. Finally, the violent collapse of the cavitation bubbles results in implosions, which cause shock waves to be radiated from the sites of the collapse. The collapse and implosion of myriad cavitation bubbles throughout an ultrasonically activated liquid result in the effect commonly associated with ultrasonics. It has been calculated that temperatures in excess of 10,000°F and pressures in excess of 10,000 PSI are generated at the implosion sites of cavitation bubbles. -Original Message- From: M. G. Devour [mailto:mdev...@eskimo.com] Sent: Wednesday, June 23, 2010 11:13 AM To: silver-list@eskimo.com Subject: Re: CSliposomes ultrasonic cleaners I think some clarification might help, polo. Are you saying the US cleaner cycles between low amplitude and high amplitude, or switches between two different oscillator frequencies? The switching, whatever it is, you imply takes place at the 60 hz line frequency, which would certainly simplify circuit design. Your use of the word 'phase' was just to refer to the two states the drivers switch between, right? Sometimes you have to read a little deeper between the lines, Marshall. grin Mike D. Ok, thanks for that info, but nevertheless, this tidbit does not change the fact that ultrasonic cleaners are designed to have a low and high phase. How can a liposome be immune from rupture, by the tough phospholipids membrane when compared to the ordinary bubble?? doug - Original Message - 50/60 Hz is the line frequency the unit is specified to work with, what comes in the power cord. That is on the low end of the audio spectrum, not the high. Cleaners typically run between 20 and 30 KHz, which is above the range of hearing. The movement is basically sinusoidal, thus the amount of time above the baseline is equal to the amount under the baseline. The word phase in such a situation would refer to the difference in the angle between two waves and does not apply to these cleaners at all. -- The Silver List is a moderated forum for discussing Colloidal Silver. Rules and Instructions: http://www.silverlist.org Unsubscribe: mailto:silver-list-requ...@eskimo.com?subject=unsubscribe Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/silver-list@eskimo.com/maillist.html Off-Topic discussions: mailto:silver-off-topic-l...@eskimo.com List Owner: Mike Devour mailto:mdev...@eskimo.com [Mike Devour, Citizen, Patriot, Libertarian] [mdev...@eskimo.com] [Speaking only for myself... ]
