RE: Heating cable and 1" wrap.

[Prahl, Craig/GVL]

I’d be highly surprised if anyone could guarantee 100% circulation in the 
system to prevent freezing.  I wouldn’t put my name on it.

But if presented with an unheated area I’d prefer to use Dry or preaction in 
lieu of heat tracing an entire wet system.  That just doesn’t make sense.



Craig L. Prahl
Fire Protection Group Lead/SME
CH2M
200 Verdae Blvd.
Greenville, SC  29607
Direct - 864.920.7540
Fax - 864.920.7129
CH2MHILL Extension  77540
craig.pr...@ch2m.com


From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On 
Behalf Of Gary Stites
Sent: Monday, August 07, 2017 1:41 PM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: Re: Heating cable and 1" wrap. [EXTERNAL]

I once saw a grid system (with no dead ends,drops etc.) that had a small 
circulation pump on it that would start pumping when the temperature reached 
freezing. Thus circulating water from the remote point of the system to the 
base of the riser. I thought it was an interesting solution (though probably 
not legal)! It was in an area that rarely reached freezing temps.

Gary Stites
RLH Fire Protection

On Wed, Jun 14, 2017 at 11:52 AM, Jamie Seidl 
<jamie.se...@gmail.com<mailto:jamie.se...@gmail.com>> wrote:

I've done a heat trace system on a full foam system, branch lines and all.  it 
was the P.E. that required it due to the division 2 classification, and the 
owners insistence on not installing Div 2 heaters in the chemical storage room. 
 we asked him to provided manufacture, and a letter from the local authority 
authorizing the use on branch lines.  The local FM was fine with it, and we 
haven't seen any problems out of it.  It was a smaller room, approximately 
3,500 sqft.  The insulation he specified was pretty thick 2" isosomething.

Jamie

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--
Gary Stites
805-769-GMAN

RLH<http://www.rlhfp.com>
WWW.K25.Rocks<http://WWW.K25.Rocks>
Pandora Station<http://www.pandora.com/?sc=sh43464983213902734>

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Re: Heating cable and 1" wrap.

[Gary Stites]

I once saw a grid system (with no dead ends,drops etc.) that had a small
circulation pump on it that would start pumping when the temperature
reached freezing. Thus circulating water from the remote point of the
system to the base of the riser. I thought it was an interesting solution
(though probably not legal)! It was in an area that rarely reached freezing
temps.

Gary Stites
RLH Fire Protection

On Wed, Jun 14, 2017 at 11:52 AM, Jamie Seidl  wrote:

> I've done a heat trace system on a full foam system, branch lines and all.
>  it was the P.E. that required it due to the division 2 classification, and
> the owners insistence on not installing Div 2 heaters in the chemical
> storage room.  we asked him to provided manufacture, and a letter from the
> local authority authorizing the use on branch lines.  The local FM was fine
> with it, and we haven't seen any problems out of it.  It was a smaller
> room, approximately 3,500 sqft.  The insulation he specified was pretty
> thick 2" isosomething.
>
> Jamie
>
> ___
> Sprinklerforum mailing list
> Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.
> org
>
>


-- 
Gary Stites
*805-769-GMAN*

RLH 
WWW.K25.Rocks
Pandora Station 
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Re: Heating cable and 1" wrap.

[Jamie Seidl]

I've done a heat trace system on a full foam system, branch lines and all.
 it was the P.E. that required it due to the division 2 classification, and
the owners insistence on not installing Div 2 heaters in the chemical
storage room.  we asked him to provided manufacture, and a letter from the
local authority authorizing the use on branch lines.  The local FM was fine
with it, and we haven't seen any problems out of it.  It was a smaller
room, approximately 3,500 sqft.  The insulation he specified was pretty
thick 2" isosomething.

Jamie
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Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org

Re: Heating cable and 1" wrap.

[Charles Thurston]

Hello 

Several years ago we were in the middle on installing a wet system in a 
2 story motel to condo conversion project. 2 existing buildings placed in an L 
shape, There was supposed to be a "community room" built connecting the 
buildings together. That never got built so we had to heat trace the pipe in 
that area. It was the EXPENSIVE. Only had to do about 40 feet of pipe and when 
it was all said and done, Heat Trace, Heat Trace Controller, Hard Shell 
Insulation (yes for the listing they specified the insulation type to use), All 
the special splice kits and parts, and Labor to install ended up costing about 
$200.00 PER FOOT. It was the XL heat trace and listed to be run right beside 
the sprinkler head.

Tuesday, June 13, 2017, 8:29:30 PM, you wrote:


I gave it the 90 second overview. This was not a detailed analysis. I assumed a 
50 degree temperature differential (+40 to -10?). I'm not even sure where this 
place is. 

Todd G Williams, PE
Fire Protection Design/Consulting
Stonington, CT
860-535-2080 (ofc)
860-553-3553 (fax)
860-608-4559 (cell)



On Jun 13, 2017 at 8:16 PM,  wrote:

Hey Todd,
On your power calculations, what minimum ambient temperature did you use for 
the water filled pipe.
 
Mark at Aero
602 820-7894
 
From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On 
Behalf Of fpdcdes...@gmail.com
Sent: Tuesday, June 13, 2017 4:50 PM
To: Sprinklerforum
Subject: RE: Heating cable and 1" wrap.
 
Pentairthermal.com has information that you can use to estimate the power 
demand. I went through some numbers (with a lot of assumptions) and came up 
with around 11 kW of power required. Wait until he sees that cost. I think this 
guy is a looney. 

Todd G Williams, PE
Fire Protection Design/Consulting
Stonington, CT
860-535-2080 (ofc)
860-553-3553 (fax)
860-608-4559 (cell)



On Jun 13, 2017 at 6:49 PM,  wrote:
About 4000 Ft. of pipe, 300 sprinklers.
 
Art
 
From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On 
Behalf Of John Paulsen
Sent: Tuesday, June 13, 2017 6:42 PM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: RE: Heating cable and 1" wrap.
 
Well, one thing is for sure, your customer would be on AEP’s (American Electric 
Power) Christmas card list the first time they powered the trace system up! 
Hundreds of feet of resistance heating cable…what a “peak” demand that would 
set.
 
John Paulsen – SET
Crown Fire System Design
6282 Seeds Rd.
Grove City, OH 43123
P – 614-782-2438
F – 614-782-2374
C – 614-348-8206
 
 
 
From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On 
Behalf Of Travis Mack, SET
Sent: Tuesday, June 13, 2017 6:25 PM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: Re: Heating cable and 1" wrap.
 
Yeah...I had some one tell me it was like $5/ft for the materials.  Now, using 
Professor Greenman's qualitative formula, it would be about $10/ft + all the 
extras :-) I don't know how accurate or not, but that sure would keep me from 
doing an entire system in it.
Travis Mack, SET
MFP Design, LLC
2508 E Lodgepole Drive
Gilbert, AZ 85298
480-505-9271
fax: 866-430-6107
email:tm...@mfpdesign.com
 
http://www.mfpdesign.com
https://www.facebook.com/pages/MFP-Design-LLC/92218417692
Send large files to us via: https://www.hightail.com/u/MFPDesign 
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/travismack
On 6/13/2017 3:08 PM, rongreenman . wrote:

Just figure a lot per foot, double it, and then add on the extras.
 
On Tue, Jun 13, 2017 at 3:05 PM, Art Tiroly <atir...@atcofirepro.com> wrote:

Thanks.
How do you determine the cost of operating a heat trace system?
That is important to convey
 
Ary
 
From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On 
Behalf Of Jeff Normand
Sent: Tuesday, June 13, 2017 5:27 PM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: Re: Heating cable and 1" wrap.
 
If ceiling is too costly wait until you see the price of heat tracing an entire 
system.
 
 
 
On Tue, Jun 13, 2017 at 4:20 PM, Art Tiroly <atir...@atcofirepro.com> wrote:
They need store packaging material, idle pallets.
 
Ceiling is also too costly.
 
Art
 
From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On 
Behalf Of Matt Grise
Sent: Tuesday, June 13, 2017 5:16 PM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: RE: Heating cable and 1" wrap.
 
What are they storing?
 
Could they put in a false ceiling?
 
Matt 
 
 
From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On 
Behalf Of Art Tiroly
Sent: Tuesday, June 13, 2017 3:58 PM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: Heating cable and 1" wrap.
 
I have a client that is renovating an uninsulated 30,000 SF shed warehouse.
He does not want to heat the building.
 
Dry system requirements for solid piled storage over 25Ft high in 35 Ft. high 
building are not available.
 
I am pushing for an ESFR wet system in a

RE: Heating cable and 1" wrap.

[Mike Stossel]

I’m not sure if the sprinkler will work for your application, but have you 
looked at Victaulic’s LP-46 sprinkler?  If I remember right it can be used on a 
dry system and depending upon what commodity you are protecting it can be used 
in buildings up to 45’0”  high with storage up to 40’0”.

Mike Stossel SET
[400dpiLogoCropped]
36 Barren Road
East Stroudsburg, PA 18302
Office: 973-670-2627
m...@knssprinkler.com<mailto:m...@knssprinkler.com>

From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On 
Behalf Of fpdcdes...@gmail.com
Sent: Tuesday, June 13, 2017 8:30 PM
To: Sprinklerforum <sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org>
Subject: RE: Heating cable and 1" wrap.

I gave it the 90 second overview. This was not a detailed analysis. I assumed a 
50 degree temperature differential (+40 to -10?). I'm not even sure where this 
place is.

Todd G Williams, PE
Fire Protection Design/Consulting
Stonington, CT
860-535-2080 (ofc)
860-553-3553 (fax)
860-608-4559 (cell)



On Jun 13, 2017 at 8:16 PM, <Mark.Phelps<mailto:mphe...@aerofire.com>> wrote:
Hey Todd,
On your power calculations, what minimum ambient temperature did you use for 
the water filled pipe.

Mark at Aero
602 820-7894

From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On 
Behalf Of fpdcdes...@gmail.com<mailto:fpdcdes...@gmail.com>
Sent: Tuesday, June 13, 2017 4:50 PM
To: Sprinklerforum
Subject: RE: Heating cable and 1" wrap.

Pentairthermal.com has information that you can use to estimate the power 
demand. I went through some numbers (with a lot of assumptions) and came up 
with around 11 kW of power required. Wait until he sees that cost. I think this 
guy is a looney.

Todd G Williams, PE
Fire Protection Design/Consulting
Stonington, CT
860-535-2080 (ofc)
860-553-3553 (fax)
860-608-4559 (cell)




On Jun 13, 2017 at 6:49 PM, mailto:atir...@atcofirepro.com>> wrote:
About 4000 Ft. of pipe, 300 sprinklers.

Art

From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On 
Behalf Of John Paulsen
Sent: Tuesday, June 13, 2017 6:42 PM
To: 
sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org<mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org>
Subject: RE: Heating cable and 1" wrap.

Well, one thing is for sure, your customer would be on AEP’s (American Electric 
Power) Christmas card list the first time they powered the trace system up! 
Hundreds of feet of resistance heating cable…what a “peak” demand that would 
set.

John Paulsen – SET
Crown Fire System Design
6282 Seeds Rd.
Grove City, OH 43123
P – 614-782-2438
F – 614-782-2374
C – 614-348-8206



From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On 
Behalf Of Travis Mack, SET
Sent: Tuesday, June 13, 2017 6:25 PM
To: 
sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org<mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org>
Subject: Re: Heating cable and 1" wrap.


Yeah...I had some one tell me it was like $5/ft for the materials.  Now, using 
Professor Greenman's qualitative formula, it would be about $10/ft + all the 
extras :-) I don't know how accurate or not, but that sure would keep me from 
doing an entire system in it.

Travis Mack, SET

MFP Design, LLC

2508 E Lodgepole Drive

Gilbert, AZ 85298

480-505-9271

fax: 866-430-6107

email:tm...@mfpdesign.com<mailto:email:tm...@mfpdesign.com>



http://www.mfpdesign.com

https://www.facebook.com/pages/MFP-Design-LLC/92218417692

Send large files to us via: https://www.hightail.com/u/MFPDesign

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/travismack
On 6/13/2017 3:08 PM, rongreenman . wrote:
Just figure a lot per foot, double it, and then add on the extras.

On Tue, Jun 13, 2017 at 3:05 PM, Art Tiroly 
<atir...@atcofirepro.com<mailto:atir...@atcofirepro.com>> wrote:
Thanks.
How do you determine the cost of operating a heat trace system?
That is important to convey

Ary

From: Sprinklerforum 
[mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org<mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org>]
 On Behalf Of Jeff Normand
Sent: Tuesday, June 13, 2017 5:27 PM
To: 
sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org<mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org>
Subject: Re: Heating cable and 1" wrap.

If ceiling is too costly wait until you see the price of heat tracing an entire 
system.



On Tue, Jun 13, 2017 at 4:20 PM, Art Tiroly 
<atir...@atcofirepro.com<mailto:atir...@atcofirepro.com>> wrote:
They need store packaging material, idle pallets.

Ceiling is also too costly.

Art

From: Sprinklerforum 
[mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org<mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org>]
 On Behalf Of Matt Grise
Sent: Tuesday, June 13, 2017 5:16 PM
To: 
sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org<mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org>
Subject: RE: Heating cable and 1" wrap.

What are they storing?

Could they put in a false ceiling?

Matt


From: 

RE: Heating cable and 1" wrap.

[fpdcdesign]

  
  
I gave it the 90 second overview. This was not a detailed analysis. I assumed a 
50 degree temperature differential (+40 to -10?). I'm not even sure where this 
place is.   

  
 Todd G Williams, PE  
Fire Protection Design/Consulting
  
Stonington, CT
  
860-535-2080 (tel:860-535-2080)  (ofc)
  
860-553-3553 (tel:860-553-3553)  (fax)
  
860-608-4559 (tel:860-608-4559)  (cell)
  
  
  
  
  

  
  
>   
> On Jun 13, 2017 at 8:16 PM,  mailto:mphe...@aerofire.com)>  
> wrote:
>   
>   
>   
>   
>
>  Hey Todd,
>
>   
>
>  On your power calculations, what minimum ambient temperature did you use for 
> the water filled pipe.
>
>   
>
> 
>
>   
>
>  Mark at Aero
>
>   
>
>  602 820-7894
>
>   
>
> 
>
>   
>   
>   
>
>  From:Sprinklerforum 
> [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org]  On Behalf Of  
> fpdcdes...@gmail.com
>   Sent:  Tuesday, June 13, 2017 4:50 PM
>   To:  Sprinklerforum
>   Subject:  RE: Heating cable and 1" wrap.
>
>   
>   
>   
>
>   
>
>   
>   
>   
>
> Pentairthermal.com has information that you can use to estimate the power 
> demand. I went through some numbers (with a lot of assumptions) and came up 
> with around 11 kW of power required. Wait until he sees that cost. I think 
> this guy is a looney.   
>
>   
>   
>   
>   
>
>
>  Todd G Williams, PE
>
>   
>   
>
> Fire Protection Design/Consulting
>
>   
>   
>   
>
> Stonington, CT
>
>   
>   
>   
>
> 860-535-2080 (tel:860-535-2080)  (ofc)
>
>   
>   
>   
>
> 860-553-3553 (tel:860-553-3553)  (fax)
>
>   
>   
>   
>
> 860-608-4559 (tel:860-608-4559)  (cell)
>
>   
>   
>   
>   
>   
>   
>   
>
>
>   
>   
>
>
>   
>   
>
> On Jun 13, 2017 at 6:49 PM,  mailto:atir...@atcofirepro.com)>  
> wrote:
>
>   
>   
>   
>
>  About 4000 Ft. of pipe, 300 sprinklers.
>
>   
>
> 
>
>   
>
>  Art
>
>   
>
> 
>
>   
>   
>   
>
>  From:Sprinklerforum 
> [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org]  On Behalf Of  John 
> Paulsen
>   Sent:  Tuesday, June 13, 2017 6:42 PM
>   To:   sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org 
> (mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org)
>   Subject:  RE: Heating cable and 1" wrap.
>
>   
>   
>   
>
>   
>
>   
>
>  Well, one thing is for sure, your customer would be on AEP’s (American 
> Electric Power) Christmas card list the first time they powered the trace 
> system up! Hundreds of feet of resistance heating cable…what a “peak” demand 
> that would set.
>
>   
>
> 
>
>   
>
>  John Paulsen – SET
>
>   
>
>  Crown Fire System Design
>
>   
>
>  6282 Seeds Rd.
>
>   
>
>  Grove City, OH 43123
>
>   
>
>  P – 614-782-2438
>
>   
>
>  F – 614-782-2374
>
>   
>
>  C – 614-348-8206
>
>   
>
> 
>
>   
>
> 
>
>   
>
> 
>
>   
>   
>   
>
>  From:Sprinklerforum 
> [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org]  On Behalf Of  Travis 
> Mack, SET
>   Sent:  Tuesday, June 13, 2017 6:25 PM
>   To:   sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org 
> (mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org)
>   Subject:  Re: Heating cable and 1" wrap.
>
>   
>   
>   
>
>   
>
>   
>
> Yeah...I had some one tell me it was like $5/ft for the materials.Now, 
> using Professor Greenman's qualitative formula, it would be about $10/ft + 
> all the extras :-) I don't know how accurate or not, but that sure would keep 
> me from doing an entire system in it.
>
>   
>  Travis Mack, SET  
>   
>  MFP Design, LLC  
>   
>  2508 E Lodgepole Drive  
>   
>  Gilbert, AZ 85298  
>   
>  480-505-9271  
>   
>  fax: 866-430-6107  
>   
>   email:tm...@mfpdesign.com (mailto:email:tm...@mfpdesign.com)   
>   
>   
>   
>   http://www.mfpdesign.com   
>   
>   https://www.facebook.com/pages/MFP-Design-LLC/92218417692   
>   
>  Send large files to us via:  https://www.hightail.com/u/MFPDesign   
>   
>  LinkedIn:  https://www.linkedin.com/in/travismack   
>   
>   
>
> On 6/13/2017 3:08 PM, rongreenman . wrote:
>
>   
>   
> >   
> >   
> >
> > Just figure a lot per foot, double it, and then add on the extras.
> >
> >   
> >   
> >   
> >
> >   
> >
> >   
> >   
> >
> > On Tue, Jun 13, 2017 at

RE: Heating cable and 1" wrap.

[Scott Futrell]

I was involved in an investigation a few years ago and learned that the heat 
tracing has a life expectancy of roughly ten years.

That would need to be confirmed for the specific equipment and then 
arrangements made for its replacement, if true.

I would not specify that type of system for a fire sprinkler system.

Scott

Office: (763) 425-1001 x 2
Cell: (612) 759-5556

From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On 
Behalf Of Art Tiroly
Sent: Tuesday, June 13, 2017 5:45 PM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: RE: Heating cable and 1" wrap.

Thank you for all your comments.
I want to get this building heated and not do a heat trace system.

I will keep fighting to keep them from making this mistake.
I have offered them an HVAC PE to do a work up but they don’t want to spend the 
money.
They don’t like engineers or construction managers.


Art Tiroly
ATCO Fire Protection/Tiroly
24400 Highland Rd CLE 44143
216-621-8899
216-570-7030 cell




From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On 
Behalf Of Travis Mack, SET
Sent: Tuesday, June 13, 2017 6:25 PM
To: 
sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org<mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org>
Subject: Re: Heating cable and 1" wrap.


Yeah...I had some one tell me it was like $5/ft for the materials.  Now, using 
Professor Greenman's qualitative formula, it would be about $10/ft + all the 
extras :-) I don't know how accurate or not, but that sure would keep me from 
doing an entire system in it.

Travis Mack, SET

MFP Design, LLC

2508 E Lodgepole Drive

Gilbert, AZ 85298

480-505-9271

fax: 866-430-6107

email:tm...@mfpdesign.com<mailto:email:tm...@mfpdesign.com>



http://www.mfpdesign.com

https://www.facebook.com/pages/MFP-Design-LLC/92218417692

Send large files to us via: https://www.hightail.com/u/MFPDesign

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/travismack
On 6/13/2017 3:08 PM, rongreenman . wrote:
Just figure a lot per foot, double it, and then add on the extras.

On Tue, Jun 13, 2017 at 3:05 PM, Art Tiroly 
<atir...@atcofirepro.com<mailto:atir...@atcofirepro.com>> wrote:
Thanks.
How do you determine the cost of operating a heat trace system?
That is important to convey

Ary

From: Sprinklerforum 
[mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org<mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org>]
 On Behalf Of Jeff Normand
Sent: Tuesday, June 13, 2017 5:27 PM
To: 
sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org<mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org>
Subject: Re: Heating cable and 1" wrap.

If ceiling is too costly wait until you see the price of heat tracing an entire 
system.



On Tue, Jun 13, 2017 at 4:20 PM, Art Tiroly 
<atir...@atcofirepro.com<mailto:atir...@atcofirepro.com>> wrote:
They need store packaging material, idle pallets.

Ceiling is also too costly.

Art

From: Sprinklerforum 
[mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org<mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org>]
 On Behalf Of Matt Grise
Sent: Tuesday, June 13, 2017 5:16 PM
To: 
sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org<mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org>
Subject: RE: Heating cable and 1" wrap.

What are they storing?

Could they put in a false ceiling?

Matt


From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On 
Behalf Of Art Tiroly
Sent: Tuesday, June 13, 2017 3:58 PM
To: 
sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org<mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org>
Subject: Heating cable and 1" wrap.

I have a client that is renovating an uninsulated 30,000 SF shed warehouse.
He does not want to heat the building.

Dry system requirements for solid piled storage over 25Ft high in 35 Ft. high 
building are not available.

I am pushing for an ESFR wet system in a heated building.
Rather than heating an uninsulated building owner suggests we heat the 
sprinkler pipe with heat cable and 1” insulation.
This method is in 13. Tyco has a system to apply heating cable to branch lines 
and cross mains.

In over 50 years I have never seen or heard of heat tracing being done. I think 
it is a mistake due to reliability and cost
There must be reasons this heating method is not being installed on a sprinkler 
system.

What arguments can I use to avoid this method of keeping a wet grid system from 
freezing.



Art Tiroly
ATCO Fire Protection/Tiroly
24400 Highland Rd CLE 44143
216-621-8899<tel:%28216%29%20621-8899>
216-570-7030<tel:%28216%29%20570-7030> cell


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_

RE: Heating cable and 1" wrap.

[Mark . Phelps]

Hey Todd,
On your power calculations, what minimum ambient temperature did you use for 
the water filled pipe.

Mark at Aero
602 820-7894

From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On 
Behalf Of fpdcdes...@gmail.com
Sent: Tuesday, June 13, 2017 4:50 PM
To: Sprinklerforum
Subject: RE: Heating cable and 1" wrap.

Pentairthermal.com has information that you can use to estimate the power 
demand. I went through some numbers (with a lot of assumptions) and came up 
with around 11 kW of power required. Wait until he sees that cost. I think this 
guy is a looney.

Todd G Williams, PE
Fire Protection Design/Consulting
Stonington, CT
860-535-2080 (ofc)
860-553-3553 (fax)
860-608-4559 (cell)



On Jun 13, 2017 at 6:49 PM, mailto:atir...@atcofirepro.com>> wrote:
About 4000 Ft. of pipe, 300 sprinklers.

Art

From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On 
Behalf Of John Paulsen
Sent: Tuesday, June 13, 2017 6:42 PM
To: 
sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org<mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org>
Subject: RE: Heating cable and 1" wrap.

Well, one thing is for sure, your customer would be on AEP’s (American Electric 
Power) Christmas card list the first time they powered the trace system up! 
Hundreds of feet of resistance heating cable…what a “peak” demand that would 
set.

John Paulsen – SET
Crown Fire System Design
6282 Seeds Rd.
Grove City, OH 43123
P – 614-782-2438
F – 614-782-2374
C – 614-348-8206



From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On 
Behalf Of Travis Mack, SET
Sent: Tuesday, June 13, 2017 6:25 PM
To: 
sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org<mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org>
Subject: Re: Heating cable and 1" wrap.


Yeah...I had some one tell me it was like $5/ft for the materials.  Now, using 
Professor Greenman's qualitative formula, it would be about $10/ft + all the 
extras :-) I don't know how accurate or not, but that sure would keep me from 
doing an entire system in it.

Travis Mack, SET

MFP Design, LLC

2508 E Lodgepole Drive

Gilbert, AZ 85298

480-505-9271

fax: 866-430-6107

email:tm...@mfpdesign.com<mailto:email:tm...@mfpdesign.com>



http://www.mfpdesign.com

https://www.facebook.com/pages/MFP-Design-LLC/92218417692

Send large files to us via: https://www.hightail.com/u/MFPDesign

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/travismack
On 6/13/2017 3:08 PM, rongreenman . wrote:
Just figure a lot per foot, double it, and then add on the extras.

On Tue, Jun 13, 2017 at 3:05 PM, Art Tiroly 
<atir...@atcofirepro.com<mailto:atir...@atcofirepro.com>> wrote:
Thanks.
How do you determine the cost of operating a heat trace system?
That is important to convey

Ary

From: Sprinklerforum 
[mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org<mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org>]
 On Behalf Of Jeff Normand
Sent: Tuesday, June 13, 2017 5:27 PM
To: 
sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org<mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org>
Subject: Re: Heating cable and 1" wrap.

If ceiling is too costly wait until you see the price of heat tracing an entire 
system.



On Tue, Jun 13, 2017 at 4:20 PM, Art Tiroly 
<atir...@atcofirepro.com<mailto:atir...@atcofirepro.com>> wrote:
They need store packaging material, idle pallets.

Ceiling is also too costly.

Art

From: Sprinklerforum 
[mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org<mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org>]
 On Behalf Of Matt Grise
Sent: Tuesday, June 13, 2017 5:16 PM
To: 
sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org<mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org>
Subject: RE: Heating cable and 1" wrap.

What are they storing?

Could they put in a false ceiling?

Matt


From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On 
Behalf Of Art Tiroly
Sent: Tuesday, June 13, 2017 3:58 PM
To: 
sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org<mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org>
Subject: Heating cable and 1" wrap.

I have a client that is renovating an uninsulated 30,000 SF shed warehouse.
He does not want to heat the building.

Dry system requirements for solid piled storage over 25Ft high in 35 Ft. high 
building are not available.

I am pushing for an ESFR wet system in a heated building.
Rather than heating an uninsulated building owner suggests we heat the 
sprinkler pipe with heat cable and 1” insulation.
This method is in 13. Tyco has a system to apply heating cable to branch lines 
and cross mains.

In over 50 years I have never seen or heard of heat tracing being done. I think 
it is a mistake due to reliability and cost
There must be reasons this heating method is not being installed on a sprinkler 
system.

What arguments can I use to avoid this method of keeping a wet grid system from 
freezing.



Art Tiroly
ATCO Fire Protection/Tiroly
24400 Highland Rd C

RE: Heating cable and 1" wrap.

[fpdcdesign]

  
  
Pentairthermal.com has information that you can use to estimate the power 
demand. I went through some numbers (with a lot of assumptions) and came up 
with around 11 kW of power required. Wait until he sees that cost. I think this 
guy is a looney.   
  
  
  
 Todd G Williams, PE  
Fire Protection Design/Consulting
  
Stonington, CT
  
860-535-2080 (tel:860-535-2080)  (ofc)
  
860-553-3553 (tel:860-553-3553)  (fax)
  
860-608-4559 (tel:860-608-4559)  (cell)
  
  
  
  
  

  
  
>   
> On Jun 13, 2017 at 6:49 PM,  mailto:atir...@atcofirepro.com)>  
> wrote:
>   
>   
>   
>   
>
>  About 4000 Ft. of pipe, 300 sprinklers.
>
>   
>
> 
>
>   
>
>  Art
>
>   
>
> 
>
>   
>   
>   
>
>  From:Sprinklerforum 
> [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org]  On Behalf Of  John 
> Paulsen
>   Sent:  Tuesday, June 13, 2017 6:42 PM
>   To:  sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
>   Subject:  RE: Heating cable and 1" wrap.
>
>   
>   
>   
>
>   
>
>   
>
>  Well, one thing is for sure, your customer would be on AEP’s (American 
> Electric Power) Christmas card list the first time they powered the trace 
> system up! Hundreds of feet of resistance heating cable…what a “peak” demand 
> that would set.
>
>   
>
> 
>
>   
>
>  John Paulsen – SET
>
>   
>
>  Crown Fire System Design
>
>   
>
>  6282 Seeds Rd.
>
>   
>
>  Grove City, OH 43123
>
>   
>
>  P – 614-782-2438
>
>   
>
>  F – 614-782-2374
>
>   
>
>  C – 614-348-8206
>
>   
>
> 
>
>   
>
> 
>
>   
>
> 
>
>   
>   
>   
>
>  From:    Sprinklerforum 
> [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org]  On Behalf Of  Travis 
> Mack, SET
>   Sent:  Tuesday, June 13, 2017 6:25 PM
>   To:   sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org 
> (mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org)
>   Subject:  Re: Heating cable and 1" wrap.
>
>   
>   
>   
>
>   
>
>   
>
> Yeah...I had some one tell me it was like $5/ft for the materials.Now, 
> using Professor Greenman's qualitative formula, it would be about $10/ft + 
> all the extras :-) I don't know how accurate or not, but that sure would keep 
> me from doing an entire system in it.
>
>   
>  Travis Mack, SET  
>   
>  MFP Design, LLC  
>   
>  2508 E Lodgepole Drive  
>   
>  Gilbert, AZ 85298  
>   
>  480-505-9271  
>   
>  fax: 866-430-6107  
>   
>   email:tm...@mfpdesign.com (mailto:email:tm...@mfpdesign.com)   
>   
>   
>   
>   http://www.mfpdesign.com   
>   
>   https://www.facebook.com/pages/MFP-Design-LLC/92218417692   
>   
>  Send large files to us via:  https://www.hightail.com/u/MFPDesign   
>   
>  LinkedIn:  https://www.linkedin.com/in/travismack   
>   
>   
>
> On 6/13/2017 3:08 PM, rongreenman . wrote:
>
>   
>   
> >   
> >   
> >
> > Just figure a lot per foot, double it, and then add on the extras.
> >
> >   
> >   
> >   
> >
> >   
> >
> >   
> >   
> >
> > On Tue, Jun 13, 2017 at 3:05 PM, Art Tiroly  <atir...@atcofirepro.com 
> > (mailto:atir...@atcofirepro.com)>  wrote:
> >
> >   
> > >   
> > >   
> > >   
> > >
> > >  Thanks.
> > >
> > >   
> > >
> > >  How do you determine the cost of operating a heat trace system?
> > >
> > >   
> > >
> > >  That is important to convey
> > >
> > >   
> > >
> > > 
> > >
> > >   
> > >
> > >  Ary
> > >
> > >   
> > >
> > > 
> > >
> > >   
> > >
> > >From:Sprinklerforum 
> > > [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org]  On Behalf Of  
> > > Jeff Normand
> > >   Sent:  Tuesday, June 13, 2017 5:27 PM
> > >   To:   sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org 
> > > (mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org)
> > >   Subject:  Re: Heating cable and 1" wrap.
> > >
> > >   
> > >   
> > >   
> > >
> > >   
> > >
> > >   
> > >   
> > >
> > > If ceiling is too costly wait until you see the price of heat tracing an 
> > > entire system.
> > >
> > >   
> > >   
> > >
> > >   
> > >
> > >   
> > >   
> > >   
&

RE: Heating cable and 1" wrap.

[John Paulsen]

Uh…Yeah. Your customer is tripping over a $100 bill to pick up dime….

Let’s see…avoids engineers and construction managers because…God forbid that 
they do it right the first time! 

 

You know, I once had a consult with a building owner who had a process lab in 
the middle of a melamine warehouse. One day the lab techs caught a cart of 
chemicals on fire and in their haste to get the cart out to the loading dock 
doors, spread the flames through the warehouse. 27 heads had to activate to 
control the fire! 27!

The owner of the building want us to remove the sprinklers that just saved his 
building because they caused too much water damage to the melamine bags. Of 
course we declined and informed the local AHJ so he could keep his eye on him. 
My point is, just because the owner wants it, it doesn’t make it right. 

 

John Paulsen – SET

Crown Fire System Design

6282 Seeds Rd.

Grove City, OH 43123

P – 614-782-2438

F – 614-782-2374

C – 614-348-8206

 

 

 

From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On 
Behalf Of Art Tiroly
Sent: Tuesday, June 13, 2017 6:49 PM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: RE: Heating cable and 1" wrap.

 

About 4000 Ft. of pipe, 300 sprinklers.

 

Art

 

From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On 
Behalf Of John Paulsen
Sent: Tuesday, June 13, 2017 6:42 PM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org 
<mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org> 
Subject: RE: Heating cable and 1" wrap.

 

Well, one thing is for sure, your customer would be on AEP’s (American Electric 
Power) Christmas card list the first time they powered the trace system up! 
Hundreds of feet of resistance heating cable…what a “peak” demand that would 
set.

 

John Paulsen – SET

Crown Fire System Design

6282 Seeds Rd.

Grove City, OH 43123

P – 614-782-2438

F – 614-782-2374

C – 614-348-8206

 

 

 

From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On 
Behalf Of Travis Mack, SET
Sent: Tuesday, June 13, 2017 6:25 PM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org 
<mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org> 
Subject: Re: Heating cable and 1" wrap.

 

Yeah...I had some one tell me it was like $5/ft for the materials.  Now, using 
Professor Greenman's qualitative formula, it would be about $10/ft + all the 
extras :-) I don't know how accurate or not, but that sure would keep me from 
doing an entire system in it.

Travis Mack, SET
MFP Design, LLC
2508 E Lodgepole Drive
Gilbert, AZ 85298
480-505-9271
fax: 866-430-6107
email:tm...@mfpdesign.com <mailto:email:tm...@mfpdesign.com> 
 
http://www.mfpdesign.com
https://www.facebook.com/pages/MFP-Design-LLC/92218417692
Send large files to us via: https://www.hightail.com/u/MFPDesign 
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/travismack

On 6/13/2017 3:08 PM, rongreenman . wrote:

Just figure a lot per foot, double it, and then add on the extras.

 

On Tue, Jun 13, 2017 at 3:05 PM, Art Tiroly <atir...@atcofirepro.com 
<mailto:atir...@atcofirepro.com> > wrote:

Thanks.

How do you determine the cost of operating a heat trace system?

That is important to convey

 

Ary

 

From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org 
<mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org> ] On Behalf Of Jeff 
Normand
Sent: Tuesday, June 13, 2017 5:27 PM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org 
<mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org> 
Subject: Re: Heating cable and 1" wrap.

 

If ceiling is too costly wait until you see the price of heat tracing an entire 
system.

 

 

 

On Tue, Jun 13, 2017 at 4:20 PM, Art Tiroly <atir...@atcofirepro.com 
<mailto:atir...@atcofirepro.com> > wrote:

They need store packaging material, idle pallets.

 

Ceiling is also too costly.

 

Art

 

From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org 
<mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org> ] On Behalf Of Matt 
Grise
Sent: Tuesday, June 13, 2017 5:16 PM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org 
<mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org> 
Subject: RE: Heating cable and 1" wrap.

 

What are they storing?

 

Could they put in a false ceiling?

 

Matt 

 

 

From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On 
Behalf Of Art Tiroly
Sent: Tuesday, June 13, 2017 3:58 PM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org 
<mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org> 
Subject: Heating cable and 1" wrap.

 

I have a client that is renovating an uninsulated 30,000 SF shed warehouse.

He does not want to heat the building.

 

Dry system requirements for solid piled storage over 25Ft high in 35 Ft. high 
building are not available.

 

I am pushing for an ESFR wet system in a heated building.

Rather than heating an uninsulated building owner suggests we heat the 
sprinkler p

Re: Heating cable and 1" wrap.

[rongreenman .]

Getting serious and agreeing with Craig. There was a large warehouse on
Harbor I sland, Seattle with a pair of 8" wet systems. The owners wanted to
turn off the heat so the 8" AVs were replaced by 6" pre-actions using
pneumatic dry pilot detection that mirrored the branch lines but all on ½"
galvanized piping. The system heads were 256 degree and the detection line
had 135s. Lots of low point drains added and re-sloping pipe but the heat
was turned off, there was never a problem I heard of, and the owners were
happy.

On Tue, Jun 13, 2017 at 3:45 PM Art Tiroly <atir...@atcofirepro.com> wrote:

> Thank you for all your comments.
>
> I want to get this building heated and not do a heat trace system.
>
>
>
> I will keep fighting to keep them from making this mistake.
>
> I have offered them an HVAC PE to do a work up but they don’t want to
> spend the money.
>
> They don’t like engineers or construction managers.
>
>
>
>
>
> Art Tiroly
>
> ATCO Fire Protection/Tiroly
>
> 24400 Highland Rd CLE 44143
>
> 216-621-8899
>
> 216-570-7030 cell
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* Sprinklerforum [mailto:
> sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] *On Behalf Of *Travis
> Mack, SET
> *Sent:* Tuesday, June 13, 2017 6:25 PM
>
>
> *To:* sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
> *Subject:* Re: Heating cable and 1" wrap.
>
>
>
> Yeah...I had some one tell me it was like $5/ft for the materials.  Now,
> using Professor Greenman's qualitative formula, it would be about $10/ft +
> all the extras :-) I don't know how accurate or not, but that sure would
> keep me from doing an entire system in it.
>
> Travis Mack, SET
>
> MFP Design, LLC
>
> 2508 E Lodgepole Drive
>
> Gilbert, AZ 85298
>
> 480-505-9271
>
> fax: 866-430-6107
>
> email:tm...@mfpdesign.com
>
>
>
> http://www.mfpdesign.com
>
> https://www.facebook.com/pages/MFP-Design-LLC/92218417692
>
> Send large files to us via: https://www.hightail.com/u/MFPDesign
>
> LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/travismack
>
> On 6/13/2017 3:08 PM, rongreenman . wrote:
>
> Just figure a lot per foot, double it, and then add on the extras.
>
>
>
> On Tue, Jun 13, 2017 at 3:05 PM, Art Tiroly <atir...@atcofirepro.com>
> wrote:
>
> Thanks.
>
> How do you determine the cost of operating a heat trace system?
>
> That is important to convey
>
>
>
> Ary
>
>
>
> *From:* Sprinklerforum [mailto:
> sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] *On Behalf Of *Jeff
> Normand
> *Sent:* Tuesday, June 13, 2017 5:27 PM
> *To:* sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
> *Subject:* Re: Heating cable and 1" wrap.
>
>
>
> If ceiling is too costly wait until you see the price of heat tracing an
> entire system.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Tue, Jun 13, 2017 at 4:20 PM, Art Tiroly <atir...@atcofirepro.com>
> wrote:
>
> They need store packaging material, idle pallets.
>
>
>
> Ceiling is also too costly.
>
>
>
> Art
>
>
>
> *From:* Sprinklerforum [mailto:
> sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] *On Behalf Of *Matt Grise
> *Sent:* Tuesday, June 13, 2017 5:16 PM
> *To:* sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
> *Subject:* RE: Heating cable and 1" wrap.
>
>
>
> What are they storing?
>
>
>
> Could they put in a false ceiling?
>
>
>
> Matt
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* Sprinklerforum [
> mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org
> <sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org>] *On Behalf Of *Art
> Tiroly
> *Sent:* Tuesday, June 13, 2017 3:58 PM
> *To:* sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
> *Subject:* Heating cable and 1" wrap.
>
>
>
> I have a client that is renovating an uninsulated 30,000 SF shed warehouse.
>
> He does not want to heat the building.
>
>
>
> Dry system requirements for solid piled storage over 25Ft high in 35 Ft.
> high building are not available.
>
>
>
> I am pushing for an ESFR wet system in a heated building.
>
> Rather than heating an uninsulated building owner suggests we heat the
> sprinkler pipe with heat cable and 1” insulation.
>
> This method is in 13. Tyco has a system to apply heating cable to branch
> lines and cross mains.
>
>
>
> In over 50 years I have never seen or heard of heat tracing being done. I
> think it is a mistake due to reliability and cost
>
> There must be reasons this heating method is not being installed on a
> sprinkler system.
>
>
>
> What arguments can I use to avoid this method of keeping a wet grid system
> from freezin

RE: Heating cable and 1" wrap.

[Art Tiroly]

About 4000 Ft. of pipe, 300 sprinklers.



Art



From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On 
Behalf Of John Paulsen
Sent: Tuesday, June 13, 2017 6:42 PM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: RE: Heating cable and 1" wrap.



Well, one thing is for sure, your customer would be on AEP’s (American Electric 
Power) Christmas card list the first time they powered the trace system up! 
Hundreds of feet of resistance heating cable…what a “peak” demand that would 
set.



John Paulsen – SET

Crown Fire System Design

6282 Seeds Rd.

Grove City, OH 43123

P – 614-782-2438

F – 614-782-2374

C – 614-348-8206







From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On 
Behalf Of Travis Mack, SET
Sent: Tuesday, June 13, 2017 6:25 PM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: Re: Heating cable and 1" wrap.



Yeah...I had some one tell me it was like $5/ft for the materials.  Now, using 
Professor Greenman's qualitative formula, it would be about $10/ft + all the 
extras :-) I don't know how accurate or not, but that sure would keep me from 
doing an entire system in it.

Travis Mack, SET
MFP Design, LLC
2508 E Lodgepole Drive
Gilbert, AZ 85298
480-505-9271
fax: 866-430-6107
email:tm...@mfpdesign.com

http://www.mfpdesign.com
https://www.facebook.com/pages/MFP-Design-LLC/92218417692
Send large files to us via: https://www.hightail.com/u/MFPDesign
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/travismack

On 6/13/2017 3:08 PM, rongreenman . wrote:

Just figure a lot per foot, double it, and then add on the extras.



On Tue, Jun 13, 2017 at 3:05 PM, Art Tiroly <atir...@atcofirepro.com> wrote:

Thanks.

How do you determine the cost of operating a heat trace system?

That is important to convey



Ary



From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On 
Behalf Of Jeff Normand
Sent: Tuesday, June 13, 2017 5:27 PM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: Re: Heating cable and 1" wrap.



If ceiling is too costly wait until you see the price of heat tracing an entire 
system.







On Tue, Jun 13, 2017 at 4:20 PM, Art Tiroly <atir...@atcofirepro.com> wrote:

They need store packaging material, idle pallets.



Ceiling is also too costly.



Art



From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On 
Behalf Of Matt Grise
Sent: Tuesday, June 13, 2017 5:16 PM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: RE: Heating cable and 1" wrap.



What are they storing?



Could they put in a false ceiling?



Matt





From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On 
Behalf Of Art Tiroly
Sent: Tuesday, June 13, 2017 3:58 PM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: Heating cable and 1" wrap.



I have a client that is renovating an uninsulated 30,000 SF shed warehouse.

He does not want to heat the building.



Dry system requirements for solid piled storage over 25Ft high in 35 Ft. high 
building are not available.



I am pushing for an ESFR wet system in a heated building.

Rather than heating an uninsulated building owner suggests we heat the 
sprinkler pipe with heat cable and 1” insulation.

This method is in 13. Tyco has a system to apply heating cable to branch lines 
and cross mains.



In over 50 years I have never seen or heard of heat tracing being done. I think 
it is a mistake due to reliability and cost

There must be reasons this heating method is not being installed on a sprinkler 
system.



What arguments can I use to avoid this method of keeping a wet grid system from 
freezing.







Art Tiroly

ATCO Fire Protection/Tiroly

24400 Highland Rd CLE 44143

216-621-8899 <tel:%28216%29%20621-8899>

216-570-7030 <tel:%28216%29%20570-7030>  cell






 
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RE: Heating cable and 1" wrap.

[Art Tiroly]

Thank you for all your comments.

I want to get this building heated and not do a heat trace system.



I will keep fighting to keep them from making this mistake.

I have offered them an HVAC PE to do a work up but they don’t want to spend the 
money.

They don’t like engineers or construction managers.





Art Tiroly

ATCO Fire Protection/Tiroly

24400 Highland Rd CLE 44143

216-621-8899

216-570-7030 cell









From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On 
Behalf Of Travis Mack, SET
Sent: Tuesday, June 13, 2017 6:25 PM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: Re: Heating cable and 1" wrap.



Yeah...I had some one tell me it was like $5/ft for the materials.  Now, using 
Professor Greenman's qualitative formula, it would be about $10/ft + all the 
extras :-) I don't know how accurate or not, but that sure would keep me from 
doing an entire system in it.

Travis Mack, SET
MFP Design, LLC
2508 E Lodgepole Drive
Gilbert, AZ 85298
480-505-9271
fax: 866-430-6107
email:tm...@mfpdesign.com

http://www.mfpdesign.com
https://www.facebook.com/pages/MFP-Design-LLC/92218417692
Send large files to us via: https://www.hightail.com/u/MFPDesign
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/travismack

On 6/13/2017 3:08 PM, rongreenman . wrote:

Just figure a lot per foot, double it, and then add on the extras.



On Tue, Jun 13, 2017 at 3:05 PM, Art Tiroly <atir...@atcofirepro.com> wrote:

Thanks.

How do you determine the cost of operating a heat trace system?

That is important to convey



Ary



From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On 
Behalf Of Jeff Normand
Sent: Tuesday, June 13, 2017 5:27 PM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: Re: Heating cable and 1" wrap.



If ceiling is too costly wait until you see the price of heat tracing an entire 
system.







On Tue, Jun 13, 2017 at 4:20 PM, Art Tiroly <atir...@atcofirepro.com> wrote:

They need store packaging material, idle pallets.



Ceiling is also too costly.



Art



From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On 
Behalf Of Matt Grise
Sent: Tuesday, June 13, 2017 5:16 PM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: RE: Heating cable and 1" wrap.



What are they storing?



Could they put in a false ceiling?



Matt





From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On 
Behalf Of Art Tiroly
Sent: Tuesday, June 13, 2017 3:58 PM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: Heating cable and 1" wrap.



I have a client that is renovating an uninsulated 30,000 SF shed warehouse.

He does not want to heat the building.



Dry system requirements for solid piled storage over 25Ft high in 35 Ft. high 
building are not available.



I am pushing for an ESFR wet system in a heated building.

Rather than heating an uninsulated building owner suggests we heat the 
sprinkler pipe with heat cable and 1” insulation.

This method is in 13. Tyco has a system to apply heating cable to branch lines 
and cross mains.



In over 50 years I have never seen or heard of heat tracing being done. I think 
it is a mistake due to reliability and cost

There must be reasons this heating method is not being installed on a sprinkler 
system.



What arguments can I use to avoid this method of keeping a wet grid system from 
freezing.







Art Tiroly

ATCO Fire Protection/Tiroly

24400 Highland Rd CLE 44143

216-621-8899 <tel:%28216%29%20621-8899>

216-570-7030 <tel:%28216%29%20570-7030>  cell






 
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rongreen...@gmail.com

253.576.9700



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screenwriter, film director, author, actor and opera director (1942-)






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RE: Heating cable and 1" wrap.

[John Paulsen]

Well, one thing is for sure, your customer would be on AEP’s (American Electric 
Power) Christmas card list the first time they powered the trace system up! 
Hundreds of feet of resistance heating cable…what a “peak” demand that would 
set.

 

John Paulsen – SET

Crown Fire System Design

6282 Seeds Rd.

Grove City, OH 43123

P – 614-782-2438

F – 614-782-2374

C – 614-348-8206

 

 

 

From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On 
Behalf Of Travis Mack, SET
Sent: Tuesday, June 13, 2017 6:25 PM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: Re: Heating cable and 1" wrap.

 

Yeah...I had some one tell me it was like $5/ft for the materials.  Now, using 
Professor Greenman's qualitative formula, it would be about $10/ft + all the 
extras :-) I don't know how accurate or not, but that sure would keep me from 
doing an entire system in it.

Travis Mack, SET
MFP Design, LLC
2508 E Lodgepole Drive
Gilbert, AZ 85298
480-505-9271
fax: 866-430-6107
email:tm...@mfpdesign.com <mailto:email:tm...@mfpdesign.com> 
 
http://www.mfpdesign.com
https://www.facebook.com/pages/MFP-Design-LLC/92218417692
Send large files to us via: https://www.hightail.com/u/MFPDesign 
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/travismack

On 6/13/2017 3:08 PM, rongreenman . wrote:

Just figure a lot per foot, double it, and then add on the extras.

 

On Tue, Jun 13, 2017 at 3:05 PM, Art Tiroly <atir...@atcofirepro.com 
<mailto:atir...@atcofirepro.com> > wrote:

Thanks.

How do you determine the cost of operating a heat trace system?

That is important to convey

 

Ary

 

From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org 
<mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org> ] On Behalf Of Jeff 
Normand
Sent: Tuesday, June 13, 2017 5:27 PM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org 
<mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org> 
Subject: Re: Heating cable and 1" wrap.

 

If ceiling is too costly wait until you see the price of heat tracing an entire 
system.

 

 

 

On Tue, Jun 13, 2017 at 4:20 PM, Art Tiroly <atir...@atcofirepro.com 
<mailto:atir...@atcofirepro.com> > wrote:

They need store packaging material, idle pallets.

 

Ceiling is also too costly.

 

Art

 

From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org 
<mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org> ] On Behalf Of Matt 
Grise
Sent: Tuesday, June 13, 2017 5:16 PM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org 
<mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org> 
Subject: RE: Heating cable and 1" wrap.

 

What are they storing?

 

Could they put in a false ceiling?

 

Matt 

 

 

From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On 
Behalf Of Art Tiroly
Sent: Tuesday, June 13, 2017 3:58 PM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org 
<mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org> 
Subject: Heating cable and 1" wrap.

 

I have a client that is renovating an uninsulated 30,000 SF shed warehouse.

He does not want to heat the building.

 

Dry system requirements for solid piled storage over 25Ft high in 35 Ft. high 
building are not available.

 

I am pushing for an ESFR wet system in a heated building.

Rather than heating an uninsulated building owner suggests we heat the 
sprinkler pipe with heat cable and 1” insulation.

This method is in 13. Tyco has a system to apply heating cable to branch lines 
and cross mains.

 

In over 50 years I have never seen or heard of heat tracing being done. I think 
it is a mistake due to reliability and cost

There must be reasons this heating method is not being installed on a sprinkler 
system.

 

What arguments can I use to avoid this method of keeping a wet grid system from 
freezing.

 

 

 

Art Tiroly

ATCO Fire Protection/Tiroly

24400 Highland Rd CLE 44143

216-621-8899 <tel:%28216%29%20621-8899> 

216-570-7030 <tel:%28216%29%20570-7030>  cell

 

 


 
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-- 

Ron Greenman 


rongreen...@gmail.com <mailto:rongreen...@gmail.com> 

253.576.9700

 

The Universe is monstrousl

Re: Heating cable and 1" wrap.

[Travis Mack, SET]

Yeah...I had some one tell me it was like $5/ft for the materials.  Now, 
using Professor Greenman's qualitative formula, it would be about $10/ft 
+ all the extras :-) I don't know how accurate or not, but that sure 
would keep me from doing an entire system in it.


Travis Mack, SET
MFP Design, LLC
2508 E Lodgepole Drive
Gilbert, AZ 85298
480-505-9271
fax: 866-430-6107
email:tm...@mfpdesign.com

http://www.mfpdesign.com
https://www.facebook.com/pages/MFP-Design-LLC/92218417692
Send large files to us via: https://www.hightail.com/u/MFPDesign
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/travismack

On 6/13/2017 3:08 PM, rongreenman . wrote:

Just figure a lot per foot, double it, and then add on the extras.

On Tue, Jun 13, 2017 at 3:05 PM, Art Tiroly <atir...@atcofirepro.com 
<mailto:atir...@atcofirepro.com>> wrote:


Thanks.

How do you determine the cost of operating a heat trace system?

That is important to convey

Ary

*From:*Sprinklerforum
[mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org
<mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org>] *On
Behalf Of *Jeff Normand
*Sent:* Tuesday, June 13, 2017 5:27 PM
*To:* sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
<mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org>
    *Subject:* Re: Heating cable and 1" wrap.

If ceiling is too costly wait until you see the price of heat
tracing an entire system.

On Tue, Jun 13, 2017 at 4:20 PM, Art Tiroly
<atir...@atcofirepro.com <mailto:atir...@atcofirepro.com>> wrote:

They need store packaging material, idle pallets.

Ceiling is also too costly.

Art

*From:*Sprinklerforum
[mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org
<mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org>] *On
Behalf Of *Matt Grise
*Sent:* Tuesday, June 13, 2017 5:16 PM
*To:* sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
<mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org>
*Subject:* RE: Heating cable and 1" wrap.

What are they storing?

Could they put in a false ceiling?

Matt

*From:*Sprinklerforum
[mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org
<mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org>] *On
Behalf Of *Art Tiroly
*Sent:* Tuesday, June 13, 2017 3:58 PM
*To:* sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
<mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org>
*Subject:* Heating cable and 1" wrap.

I have a client that is renovating an uninsulated 30,000 SF shed
warehouse.

He does not want to heat the building.

Dry system requirements for solid piled storage over 25Ft high in
35 Ft. high building are not available.

I am pushing for an ESFR wet system in a heated building.

Rather than heating an uninsulated building owner suggests we heat
the sprinkler pipe with heat cable and 1” insulation.

This method is in 13. Tyco has a system to apply heating cable to
branch lines and cross mains.

In over 50 years I have never seen or heard of heat tracing being
done. I think it is a mistake due to reliability and cost

There must be reasons this heating method is not being installed
on a sprinkler system.

What arguments can I use to avoid this method of keeping a wet
grid system from freezing.

Art Tiroly

ATCO Fire Protection/Tiroly

24400 Highland Rd CLE 44143

216-621-8899 <tel:%28216%29%20621-8899>

216-570-7030 <tel:%28216%29%20570-7030> cell


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--
Ron Greenman

rongreen...@gmail.com <mailto:rongreen...@gmail.com>

253.576.9700

The Universe is monstrously indifferent to the presence of man. 
-Werner Herzog, screenwriter, film director, author, actor and opera 
director (1942-)



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Re: Heating cable and 1" wrap.

[rongreenman .]

Just figure a lot per foot, double it, and then add on the extras.

On Tue, Jun 13, 2017 at 3:05 PM, Art Tiroly <atir...@atcofirepro.com> wrote:

> Thanks.
>
> How do you determine the cost of operating a heat trace system?
>
> That is important to convey
>
>
>
> Ary
>
>
>
> *From:* Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-bounces@lists.firesprinkler.
> org] *On Behalf Of *Jeff Normand
> *Sent:* Tuesday, June 13, 2017 5:27 PM
> *To:* sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
> *Subject:* Re: Heating cable and 1" wrap.
>
>
>
> If ceiling is too costly wait until you see the price of heat tracing an
> entire system.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Tue, Jun 13, 2017 at 4:20 PM, Art Tiroly <atir...@atcofirepro.com>
> wrote:
>
> They need store packaging material, idle pallets.
>
>
>
> Ceiling is also too costly.
>
>
>
> Art
>
>
>
> *From:* Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-bounces@lists.firesprinkler.
> org] *On Behalf Of *Matt Grise
> *Sent:* Tuesday, June 13, 2017 5:16 PM
> *To:* sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
> *Subject:* RE: Heating cable and 1" wrap.
>
>
>
> What are they storing?
>
>
>
> Could they put in a false ceiling?
>
>
>
> Matt
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-bounces@lists.firesprinkler.
> org <sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org>] *On Behalf Of *Art
> Tiroly
> *Sent:* Tuesday, June 13, 2017 3:58 PM
> *To:* sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
> *Subject:* Heating cable and 1" wrap.
>
>
>
> I have a client that is renovating an uninsulated 30,000 SF shed warehouse.
>
> He does not want to heat the building.
>
>
>
> Dry system requirements for solid piled storage over 25Ft high in 35 Ft.
> high building are not available.
>
>
>
> I am pushing for an ESFR wet system in a heated building.
>
> Rather than heating an uninsulated building owner suggests we heat the
> sprinkler pipe with heat cable and 1” insulation.
>
> This method is in 13. Tyco has a system to apply heating cable to branch
> lines and cross mains.
>
>
>
> In over 50 years I have never seen or heard of heat tracing being done. I
> think it is a mistake due to reliability and cost
>
> There must be reasons this heating method is not being installed on a
> sprinkler system.
>
>
>
> What arguments can I use to avoid this method of keeping a wet grid system
> from freezing.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Art Tiroly
>
> ATCO Fire Protection/Tiroly
>
> 24400 Highland Rd CLE 44143
>
> 216-621-8899 <(216)%20621-8899>
>
> 216-570-7030 <(216)%20570-7030> cell
>
>
>
>
>
>
> <https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email_source=link_campaign=sig-email_content=emailclient_term=icon>
>
> Virus-free. www.avast.com
> <https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email_source=link_campaign=sig-email_content=emailclient_term=link>
>
>
>
>
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>
>


-- 
Ron Greenman

rongreen...@gmail.com

253.576.9700

The Universe is monstrously indifferent to the presence of man. -Werner
Herzog, screenwriter, film director, author, actor and opera
director (1942-)
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RE: Heating cable and 1" wrap.

[Art Tiroly]

Thanks.

How do you determine the cost of operating a heat trace system?

That is important to convey



Ary



From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On 
Behalf Of Jeff Normand
Sent: Tuesday, June 13, 2017 5:27 PM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: Re: Heating cable and 1" wrap.



If ceiling is too costly wait until you see the price of heat tracing an entire 
system.







On Tue, Jun 13, 2017 at 4:20 PM, Art Tiroly <atir...@atcofirepro.com> wrote:

They need store packaging material, idle pallets.



Ceiling is also too costly.



Art



From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On 
Behalf Of Matt Grise
Sent: Tuesday, June 13, 2017 5:16 PM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: RE: Heating cable and 1" wrap.



What are they storing?



Could they put in a false ceiling?



Matt





From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On 
Behalf Of Art Tiroly
Sent: Tuesday, June 13, 2017 3:58 PM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: Heating cable and 1" wrap.



I have a client that is renovating an uninsulated 30,000 SF shed warehouse.

He does not want to heat the building.



Dry system requirements for solid piled storage over 25Ft high in 35 Ft. high 
building are not available.



I am pushing for an ESFR wet system in a heated building.

Rather than heating an uninsulated building owner suggests we heat the 
sprinkler pipe with heat cable and 1” insulation.

This method is in 13. Tyco has a system to apply heating cable to branch lines 
and cross mains.



In over 50 years I have never seen or heard of heat tracing being done. I think 
it is a mistake due to reliability and cost

There must be reasons this heating method is not being installed on a sprinkler 
system.



What arguments can I use to avoid this method of keeping a wet grid system from 
freezing.







Art Tiroly

ATCO Fire Protection/Tiroly

24400 Highland Rd CLE 44143

216-621-8899

216-570-7030 cell






 
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RE: Heating cable and 1" wrap.

[Prahl, Craig/GVL]

I'm not talking about a Quell system, that's a special kind of beast.  Just a 
regular single interlock preaction system.  Is it an option based on the 
building dimensions, commodities stored and storage arrangement?

Heat tracing is a mechanical system, as with all mechanical systems there is 
potential for failure when not properly maintained.  We all know how well 
owners maintain sprinkler systems let alone other auxiliary systems. HT systems 
weren't originally intended to take the place of heating a building or 
utilizing a dry pipe system for an unheated space.  Heat trace was for 
protecting PORTIONS of wet systems.

Plus adequately tracing every pipe, every valve, and every water filled pipe 
and valve in the trim is going to be a real fun task, hopefully he at least 
builds a heated room for the riser.

You didn't say where this was being built.



Craig L. Prahl
Fire Protection Group Lead/SME
CH2M
200 Verdae Blvd.
Greenville, SC  29607
Direct - 864.920.7540
Fax - 864.920.7129
CH2MHILL Extension  77540
craig.pr...@ch2m.com


From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On 
Behalf Of Art Tiroly
Sent: Tuesday, June 13, 2017 5:28 PM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: RE: Heating cable and 1" wrap. [EXTERNAL]

What about using Single Interlock Pre-action.

We got a bid for a "Quell" pre-action dry system with detection that is crazy 
expensive with a 2500 gpm fire pump.
Good city water is adequate for an ESFR system without a pump from a 20" water 
main.

What is the poor reliability aspect Concern?

Art

From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On 
Behalf Of Prahl, Craig/GVL
Sent: Tuesday, June 13, 2017 5:17 PM
To: 
sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org<mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org>
Subject: RE: Heating cable and 1" wrap.

?  You could use heat detection in lieu of smoke detection depending on 
environmental conditions.

Heat tracing a complete system is a disaster waiting to happen IMHO.

Also the Heat trace system must be electronically supervised to insure 
operability.  So he will need a fire alarm system for it to connect to.


Craig L. Prahl
Fire Protection Group Lead/SME
CH2M
200 Verdae Blvd.
Greenville, SC  29607
Direct - 864.920.7540
Fax - 864.920.7129
CH2MHILL Extension  77540
craig.pr...@ch2m.com<mailto:craig.pr...@ch2m.com>

From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On 
Behalf Of Art Tiroly
Sent: Tuesday, June 13, 2017 4:58 PM
To: 
sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org<mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org>
Subject: Heating cable and 1" wrap. [EXTERNAL]

I have a client that is renovating an uninsulated 30,000 SF shed warehouse.
He does not want to heat the building.

Dry system requirements for solid piled storage over 25Ft high in 35 Ft. high 
building are not available.

I am pushing for an ESFR wet system in a heated building.
Rather than heating an uninsulated building owner suggests we heat the 
sprinkler pipe with heat cable and 1" insulation.
This method is in 13. Tyco has a system to apply heating cable to branch lines 
and cross mains.

In over 50 years I have never seen or heard of heat tracing being done. I think 
it is a mistake due to reliability and cost
There must be reasons this heating method is not being installed on a sprinkler 
system.

What arguments can I use to avoid this method of keeping a wet grid system from 
freezing.



Art Tiroly
ATCO Fire Protection/Tiroly
24400 Highland Rd CLE 44143
216-621-8899
216-570-7030 cell


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RE: Heating cable and 1" wrap.

[Matt Grise]

If the packaging materials are class 3 commodities, they could design to FM.

Matt


From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On 
Behalf Of Art Tiroly
Sent: Tuesday, June 13, 2017 4:28 PM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: RE: Heating cable and 1" wrap.

What about using Single Interlock Pre-action.

We got a bid for a "Quell" pre-action dry system with detection that is crazy 
expensive with a 2500 gpm fire pump.
Good city water is adequate for an ESFR system without a pump from a 20" water 
main.

What is the poor reliability aspect Concern?

Art

From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On 
Behalf Of Prahl, Craig/GVL
Sent: Tuesday, June 13, 2017 5:17 PM
To: 
sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org<mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org>
Subject: RE: Heating cable and 1" wrap.

?  You could use heat detection in lieu of smoke detection depending on 
environmental conditions.

Heat tracing a complete system is a disaster waiting to happen IMHO.

Also the Heat trace system must be electronically supervised to insure 
operability.  So he will need a fire alarm system for it to connect to.


Craig L. Prahl
Fire Protection Group Lead/SME
CH2M
200 Verdae Blvd.
Greenville, SC  29607
Direct - 864.920.7540
Fax - 864.920.7129
CH2MHILL Extension  77540
craig.pr...@ch2m.com<mailto:craig.pr...@ch2m.com>

From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On 
Behalf Of Art Tiroly
Sent: Tuesday, June 13, 2017 4:58 PM
To: 
sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org<mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org>
Subject: Heating cable and 1" wrap. [EXTERNAL]

I have a client that is renovating an uninsulated 30,000 SF shed warehouse.
He does not want to heat the building.

Dry system requirements for solid piled storage over 25Ft high in 35 Ft. high 
building are not available.

I am pushing for an ESFR wet system in a heated building.
Rather than heating an uninsulated building owner suggests we heat the 
sprinkler pipe with heat cable and 1" insulation.
This method is in 13. Tyco has a system to apply heating cable to branch lines 
and cross mains.

In over 50 years I have never seen or heard of heat tracing being done. I think 
it is a mistake due to reliability and cost
There must be reasons this heating method is not being installed on a sprinkler 
system.

What arguments can I use to avoid this method of keeping a wet grid system from 
freezing.



Art Tiroly
ATCO Fire Protection/Tiroly
24400 Highland Rd CLE 44143
216-621-8899
216-570-7030 cell


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RE: Heating cable and 1" wrap.

[Art Tiroly]

What about using Single Interlock Pre-action.

 

We got a bid for a "Quell" pre-action dry system with detection that is
crazy expensive with a 2500 gpm fire pump.

Good city water is adequate for an ESFR system without a pump from a 20"
water main.

 

What is the poor reliability aspect Concern?

 

Art

 

From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org]
On Behalf Of Prahl, Craig/GVL
Sent: Tuesday, June 13, 2017 5:17 PM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: RE: Heating cable and 1" wrap.

 

?  You could use heat detection in lieu of smoke detection depending on
environmental conditions.  

 

Heat tracing a complete system is a disaster waiting to happen IMHO.  

 

Also the Heat trace system must be electronically supervised to insure
operability.  So he will need a fire alarm system for it to connect to.  

 


Craig L. Prahl 
Fire Protection Group Lead/SME
CH2M
200 Verdae Blvd. 
Greenville, SC  29607
Direct - 864.920.7540

Fax - 864.920.7129

CH2MHILL Extension  77540
craig.pr...@ch2m.com



 

From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org]
On Behalf Of Art Tiroly
Sent: Tuesday, June 13, 2017 4:58 PM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: Heating cable and 1" wrap. [EXTERNAL]

 

I have a client that is renovating an uninsulated 30,000 SF shed warehouse.

He does not want to heat the building.

 

Dry system requirements for solid piled storage over 25Ft high in 35 Ft.
high building are not available.

 

I am pushing for an ESFR wet system in a heated building.

Rather than heating an uninsulated building owner suggests we heat the
sprinkler pipe with heat cable and 1" insulation.

This method is in 13. Tyco has a system to apply heating cable to branch
lines and cross mains.

 

In over 50 years I have never seen or heard of heat tracing being done. I
think it is a mistake due to reliability and cost

There must be reasons this heating method is not being installed on a
sprinkler system.

 

What arguments can I use to avoid this method of keeping a wet grid system
from freezing.

 

 

 

Art Tiroly

ATCO Fire Protection/Tiroly

24400 Highland Rd CLE 44143

216-621-8899

216-570-7030 cell

 

 


 
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Re: Heating cable and 1" wrap.

[Jeff Normand]

If ceiling is too costly wait until you see the price of heat tracing an
entire system.



On Tue, Jun 13, 2017 at 4:20 PM, Art Tiroly <atir...@atcofirepro.com> wrote:

> They need store packaging material, idle pallets.
>
>
>
> Ceiling is also too costly.
>
>
>
> Art
>
>
>
> *From:* Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-bounces@lists.firesprinkler.
> org] *On Behalf Of *Matt Grise
> *Sent:* Tuesday, June 13, 2017 5:16 PM
> *To:* sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
> *Subject:* RE: Heating cable and 1" wrap.
>
>
>
> What are they storing?
>
>
>
> Could they put in a false ceiling?
>
>
>
> Matt
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-bounces@lists.firesprinkler.
> org <sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org>] *On Behalf Of *Art
> Tiroly
> *Sent:* Tuesday, June 13, 2017 3:58 PM
> *To:* sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
> *Subject:* Heating cable and 1" wrap.
>
>
>
> I have a client that is renovating an uninsulated 30,000 SF shed warehouse.
>
> He does not want to heat the building.
>
>
>
> Dry system requirements for solid piled storage over 25Ft high in 35 Ft.
> high building are not available.
>
>
>
> I am pushing for an ESFR wet system in a heated building.
>
> Rather than heating an uninsulated building owner suggests we heat the
> sprinkler pipe with heat cable and 1” insulation.
>
> This method is in 13. Tyco has a system to apply heating cable to branch
> lines and cross mains.
>
>
>
> In over 50 years I have never seen or heard of heat tracing being done. I
> think it is a mistake due to reliability and cost
>
> There must be reasons this heating method is not being installed on a
> sprinkler system.
>
>
>
> What arguments can I use to avoid this method of keeping a wet grid system
> from freezing.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Art Tiroly
>
> ATCO Fire Protection/Tiroly
>
> 24400 Highland Rd CLE 44143
>
> 216-621-8899
>
> 216-570-7030 cell
>
>
>
>
>
>
> <https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email_source=link_campaign=sig-email_content=emailclient_term=icon>
>
> Virus-free. www.avast.com
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RE: Heating cable and 1" wrap.

[Art Tiroly]

They need store packaging material, idle pallets.

 

Ceiling is also too costly.

 

Art

 

From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org]
On Behalf Of Matt Grise
Sent: Tuesday, June 13, 2017 5:16 PM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: RE: Heating cable and 1" wrap.

 

What are they storing?

 

Could they put in a false ceiling?

 

Matt 

 

 

From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org]
On Behalf Of Art Tiroly
Sent: Tuesday, June 13, 2017 3:58 PM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: Heating cable and 1" wrap.

 

I have a client that is renovating an uninsulated 30,000 SF shed warehouse.

He does not want to heat the building.

 

Dry system requirements for solid piled storage over 25Ft high in 35 Ft.
high building are not available.

 

I am pushing for an ESFR wet system in a heated building.

Rather than heating an uninsulated building owner suggests we heat the
sprinkler pipe with heat cable and 1" insulation.

This method is in 13. Tyco has a system to apply heating cable to branch
lines and cross mains.

 

In over 50 years I have never seen or heard of heat tracing being done. I
think it is a mistake due to reliability and cost

There must be reasons this heating method is not being installed on a
sprinkler system.

 

What arguments can I use to avoid this method of keeping a wet grid system
from freezing.

 

 

 

Art Tiroly

ATCO Fire Protection/Tiroly

24400 Highland Rd CLE 44143

216-621-8899

216-570-7030 cell

 

 


 
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RE: Heating cable and 1" wrap.

[Prahl, Craig/GVL]

What about using Single Interlock Preaction?  You could use heat detection in 
lieu of smoke detection depending on environmental conditions.

Heat tracing a complete system is a disaster waiting to happen IMHO.

Also the Heat trace system must be electronically supervised to insure 
operability.  So he will need a fire alarm system for it to connect to.


Craig L. Prahl
Fire Protection Group Lead/SME
CH2M
200 Verdae Blvd.
Greenville, SC  29607
Direct - 864.920.7540
Fax - 864.920.7129
CH2MHILL Extension  77540
craig.pr...@ch2m.com


From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On 
Behalf Of Art Tiroly
Sent: Tuesday, June 13, 2017 4:58 PM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: Heating cable and 1" wrap. [EXTERNAL]

I have a client that is renovating an uninsulated 30,000 SF shed warehouse.
He does not want to heat the building.

Dry system requirements for solid piled storage over 25Ft high in 35 Ft. high 
building are not available.

I am pushing for an ESFR wet system in a heated building.
Rather than heating an uninsulated building owner suggests we heat the 
sprinkler pipe with heat cable and 1" insulation.
This method is in 13. Tyco has a system to apply heating cable to branch lines 
and cross mains.

In over 50 years I have never seen or heard of heat tracing being done. I think 
it is a mistake due to reliability and cost
There must be reasons this heating method is not being installed on a sprinkler 
system.

What arguments can I use to avoid this method of keeping a wet grid system from 
freezing.



Art Tiroly
ATCO Fire Protection/Tiroly
24400 Highland Rd CLE 44143
216-621-8899
216-570-7030 cell


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RE: Heating cable and 1" wrap.

[Matthew J Willis]

I've used it in things like breezeways, never an entire system. However, 
grapevine has that listing is not now available for heat trace???

R/
Matt
Matthew J. Willis
Project Manager
Rapid Fire Protection Inc.
1530 Samco Road
Rapid City, SD 57702
Office-605.348.2342
Direct Line-605.593.5063
Cell-605.391.2733
Fax:-605.348.0108

[cid:image001.png@01D159E8.1A3A2D00]

From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On 
Behalf Of Art Tiroly
Sent: Tuesday, June 13, 2017 2:58 PM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: Heating cable and 1" wrap.

I have a client that is renovating an uninsulated 30,000 SF shed warehouse.
He does not want to heat the building.

Dry system requirements for solid piled storage over 25Ft high in 35 Ft. high 
building are not available.

I am pushing for an ESFR wet system in a heated building.
Rather than heating an uninsulated building owner suggests we heat the 
sprinkler pipe with heat cable and 1" insulation.
This method is in 13. Tyco has a system to apply heating cable to branch lines 
and cross mains.

In over 50 years I have never seen or heard of heat tracing being done. I think 
it is a mistake due to reliability and cost
There must be reasons this heating method is not being installed on a sprinkler 
system.

What arguments can I use to avoid this method of keeping a wet grid system from 
freezing.



Art Tiroly
ATCO Fire Protection/Tiroly
24400 Highland Rd CLE 44143
216-621-8899
216-570-7030 cell


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RE: Heating cable and 1" wrap.

[Matt Grise]

What are they storing?

Could they put in a false ceiling?

Matt


From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On 
Behalf Of Art Tiroly
Sent: Tuesday, June 13, 2017 3:58 PM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: Heating cable and 1" wrap.

I have a client that is renovating an uninsulated 30,000 SF shed warehouse.
He does not want to heat the building.

Dry system requirements for solid piled storage over 25Ft high in 35 Ft. high 
building are not available.

I am pushing for an ESFR wet system in a heated building.
Rather than heating an uninsulated building owner suggests we heat the 
sprinkler pipe with heat cable and 1" insulation.
This method is in 13. Tyco has a system to apply heating cable to branch lines 
and cross mains.

In over 50 years I have never seen or heard of heat tracing being done. I think 
it is a mistake due to reliability and cost
There must be reasons this heating method is not being installed on a sprinkler 
system.

What arguments can I use to avoid this method of keeping a wet grid system from 
freezing.



Art Tiroly
ATCO Fire Protection/Tiroly
24400 Highland Rd CLE 44143
216-621-8899
216-570-7030 cell


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