Re: dischrony

[Frank King]

Dear Fabio,

Many thanks for your most interesting
message to the list...

> Years ago Nicola Severino found
> 'eliodromo' in a book of Athanasius 
> Kircher...

Can you provide a photograph of an
eliodromo?  OR, perhaps, a photograph
of a suitable sundial with the region
of the eliodromo highlighted?

Frank

Frank King
Cambridge, U.K.

---
https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial

Re: dischrony

[fabio.sav...@nonvedolora.it]

dear all, thank you for your support.

The terms change from a language to another, I found that the comparison 
is interesting because a language may have a more effective expression 
than others but sometimes a translation can lose something.


I think that the term 'offset' is synthetic and effective, joined with 
'time' or 'longitude' it gives an immediate understanding.
The italian translation loses something, there is not a term really 
alternate to 'offset', I could use 'scarto' (it is similar to 
'difference') but it sounds different than 'offset' (it has a very 
similar meaning but it also means 'waste').


It seems to me that 'longitude correction' is used and proper in any 
languages but I'm agree with Frank King that it could also suggest that 
something was wrong, anyway if 'offest' is not available I prefer 
'correction' than 'costant'.


'Costant' seems inappropriate to me. I can consider different sundials 
on the same meridian but beloging to different countries, or different 
regions of the same country, with different time-zones. The costant 
would be variable. Moreover it doesn't define what it refers to.


I don't wish to sustain the use of 'dischrony' (or dyschrony) but only 
to suggest that the term exists, it has a correct philology (like 
anachronism, synchrony, isochrony, ..) and it is already used in another 
field to meaning a time difference. You haven't to like it but if you 
wish it might be used.


Years ago Nicola Severino found 'eliodromo' in a book of Athanasius 
Kircher, it may be translated as 'heliodrome' and it define the area of 
a dial where the gnomon's indications can be collected (where the Sun 
run). Usually it is contained among the solstice curves, the horizon 
line and the limits of the dial. I found this term very synthetic and 
effective, sometimes I use it but only in technical speches with other 
gnomonists.


ciao Fabio




Il 14/03/2019 17:32, Michael Ossipoff ha scritto:

[quote]
Yes i's an image of the Sun, if the ratio of hole-to-spot distance to 
hole-diameter isn't much less than the ratio of the Sun's distance to 
its diameter.

[/quote]

Alright, it isn't a very /accurate/ image unless the ratio of 
hole-to-spot distance to hole-diameter is considerably greater than 
the ratio of the Sun's distance to its diameter.


Michael Ossipoff

2019, Week 12, Thursday
1632 UTC

On Wed, Mar 13, 2019 at 6:32 PM Kurt Niel <mailto:kepler...@gmail.com>> wrote:


In German language we have:

WOZ Wahre Ortszeit (= LAT, 12:00 = sun is exactly south at the
location)

MOZ Mittlere Ortszeit - within a year the medium length of a day`s
time
WOZ = MOZ + EoT

MEZ Mitteleuropäische Zeit = MOZ at longitude 15° East

MESZ Mitteleuropäische Sommerzeit = MEZ + 1 h

Regarding the ongoing diskussion whitch time shall we take in the
future if we leave the yearly double change
standard/summer/daylight saving time: I would prefer a revolution
and take only two definitions worldwide:
1) UTC (universal time for global synchronisation)
2) LAT (the most natural local time caused by the sun's position
only).

The calculation in between should not be a problem by GPS driven
watches/smartphones/IoT-devices. Even mechanic watches would be
able to do the job for EoT - EoL can be set manually if necessary
while travelling.

Kurt

Kurt Niel mailto:kepler...@gmail.com>>
schrieb am Mi., 13. März 2019, 22:51:

Dear sundialists,

within my sundial-/webcamproject
https://kepleruhr.at/en/live-view I already declared the
following relationship:

UTC +
EoT (equation of time) +
EoL (equation of longitude) =
LAT (local apparent time) =
WOZ (Wahre Ortszeit) [German]

Kurt

Dan-George Uza mailto:cerculdest...@gmail.com>> schrieb am Mi., 13. März
2019, 22:21:

Perhaps "equation of longitude"?

Dan Uza

On Wed, Mar 13, 2019, 20:50 Julian Lush
mailto:julian.l...@hotmail.co.uk>> wrote:

How about longitude adjustment?

Julian Lush
72 Bromfelde Road, London SW4 6PR
020 7622 9497    07815 637706


*From:* sundial mailto:sundial-boun...@uni-koeln.de>> on behalf of
Frank King mailto:f...@cl.cam.ac.uk>>
*Sent:* 13 March 2019 12:29
*To:* Dan-George Uza
    *Cc:* Sundial List
*Subject:* Re: dischrony
Dear All,

I have a mild distaste for "correction" since
it implies something is wrong.  In particular
'local mean time' and 'local mean time-zone time'
are both correct, but different, times.  O

Re: dischrony

[Michael Ossipoff]

[quote]
Yes i's an image of the Sun, if the ratio of hole-to-spot distance to
hole-diameter isn't much less than the ratio of the Sun's distance to its
diameter.
[/quote]

Alright, it isn't a very *accurate* image unless the ratio of hole-to-spot
distance to hole-diameter is considerably greater than the ratio of the
Sun's distance to its diameter.

Michael Ossipoff

2019, Week 12, Thursday
1632 UTC

On Wed, Mar 13, 2019 at 6:32 PM Kurt Niel  wrote:

> In German language we have:
>
> WOZ Wahre Ortszeit (= LAT, 12:00 = sun is exactly south at the location)
>
> MOZ Mittlere Ortszeit - within a year the medium length of a day`s time
> WOZ = MOZ + EoT
>
> MEZ Mitteleuropäische Zeit = MOZ at longitude 15° East
>
> MESZ Mitteleuropäische Sommerzeit = MEZ + 1 h
>
> Regarding the ongoing diskussion whitch time shall we take in the future
> if we leave the yearly double change standard/summer/daylight saving time:
> I would prefer a revolution and take only two definitions worldwide:
> 1) UTC (universal time for global synchronisation)
> 2) LAT (the most natural local time caused by the sun's position only).
>
> The calculation in between should not be a problem by GPS driven
> watches/smartphones/IoT-devices. Even mechanic watches would be able to do
> the job for EoT - EoL can be set manually if necessary while travelling.
>
> Kurt
>
> Kurt Niel  schrieb am Mi., 13. März 2019, 22:51:
>
>> Dear sundialists,
>>
>> within my sundial-/webcamproject https://kepleruhr.at/en/live-view I
>> already declared the following relationship:
>>
>> UTC +
>> EoT (equation of time) +
>> EoL (equation of longitude) =
>> LAT (local apparent time) =
>> WOZ (Wahre Ortszeit) [German]
>>
>> Kurt
>>
>> Dan-George Uza  schrieb am Mi., 13. März 2019,
>> 22:21:
>>
>>> Perhaps "equation of longitude"?
>>>
>>> Dan Uza
>>>
>>> On Wed, Mar 13, 2019, 20:50 Julian Lush 
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> How about longitude adjustment?
>>>>
>>>> Julian Lush
>>>> 72 Bromfelde Road, London SW4 6PR
>>>> 020 7622 949707815 637706
>>>> --
>>>> *From:* sundial  on behalf of Frank King
>>>> 
>>>> *Sent:* 13 March 2019 12:29
>>>> *To:* Dan-George Uza
>>>> *Cc:* Sundial List
>>>> *Subject:* Re: dischrony
>>>>
>>>> Dear All,
>>>>
>>>> I have a mild distaste for "correction" since
>>>> it implies something is wrong.  In particular
>>>> 'local mean time' and 'local mean time-zone time'
>>>> are both correct, but different, times.  One is
>>>> offset from the other but this offset is in no
>>>> sense a correction!
>>>>
>>>> To me "offset" is neutral.
>>>>
>>>> There are, of course, many many different
>>>> times in current use.  Here are just a few:
>>>>
>>>>   TAI, UTC, UT1, UT2, GMT, GST, GPS time
>>>>
>>>> None of these is wrong but each is offset
>>>> from all the others.
>>>>
>>>> Sometimes the offset is constant such as
>>>> the difference between TAI and GPS time
>>>>
>>>> Sometimes the offset changes infrequently,
>>>> such as the difference between TAI and UTC
>>>> (which changes only when there is a leap
>>>> second).
>>>>
>>>> Sometimes the offset changes continuously,
>>>> such as the difference between GST (sidereal
>>>> time) and GMT.
>>>>
>>>> This suggests that the word 'constant' is
>>>> not generally appropriate and is why I am
>>>> not keen on the Italian "costante locale".
>>>>
>>>> This is actually a false assertion when
>>>> referring to local mean time versus local
>>>> time-zone time because in most places the
>>>> reference time zone is shifted 15 degrees
>>>> backwards and forwards at the whim of
>>>> legislators!  The offset is not constant!
>>>>
>>>> Dan-George asks:
>>>>
>>>>   how would you translate the Italian
>>>>   "foro gnomonico"
>>>>
>>>> In English, this translates literally as
>>>> "gnomonic hole" but this would be a bad
>>>> translation!  It generally refers to the
>>>> hole in the roof (or possibly a side wall)
>>>> of a cathedral or large chu

Re: dischrony

[Kurt Niel]

In German language we have:

WOZ Wahre Ortszeit (= LAT, 12:00 = sun is exactly south at the location)

MOZ Mittlere Ortszeit - within a year the medium length of a day`s time
WOZ = MOZ + EoT

MEZ Mitteleuropäische Zeit = MOZ at longitude 15° East

MESZ Mitteleuropäische Sommerzeit = MEZ + 1 h

Regarding the ongoing diskussion whitch time shall we take in the future if
we leave the yearly double change standard/summer/daylight saving time: I
would prefer a revolution and take only two definitions worldwide:
1) UTC (universal time for global synchronisation)
2) LAT (the most natural local time caused by the sun's position only).

The calculation in between should not be a problem by GPS driven
watches/smartphones/IoT-devices. Even mechanic watches would be able to do
the job for EoT - EoL can be set manually if necessary while travelling.

Kurt

Kurt Niel  schrieb am Mi., 13. März 2019, 22:51:

> Dear sundialists,
>
> within my sundial-/webcamproject https://kepleruhr.at/en/live-view I
> already declared the following relationship:
>
> UTC +
> EoT (equation of time) +
> EoL (equation of longitude) =
> LAT (local apparent time) =
> WOZ (Wahre Ortszeit) [German]
>
> Kurt
>
> Dan-George Uza  schrieb am Mi., 13. März 2019,
> 22:21:
>
>> Perhaps "equation of longitude"?
>>
>> Dan Uza
>>
>> On Wed, Mar 13, 2019, 20:50 Julian Lush 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> How about longitude adjustment?
>>>
>>> Julian Lush
>>> 72 Bromfelde Road, London SW4 6PR
>>> 020 7622 949707815 637706
>>> --
>>> *From:* sundial  on behalf of Frank King <
>>> f...@cl.cam.ac.uk>
>>> *Sent:* 13 March 2019 12:29
>>> *To:* Dan-George Uza
>>> *Cc:* Sundial List
>>> *Subject:* Re: dischrony
>>>
>>> Dear All,
>>>
>>> I have a mild distaste for "correction" since
>>> it implies something is wrong.  In particular
>>> 'local mean time' and 'local mean time-zone time'
>>> are both correct, but different, times.  One is
>>> offset from the other but this offset is in no
>>> sense a correction!
>>>
>>> To me "offset" is neutral.
>>>
>>> There are, of course, many many different
>>> times in current use.  Here are just a few:
>>>
>>>   TAI, UTC, UT1, UT2, GMT, GST, GPS time
>>>
>>> None of these is wrong but each is offset
>>> from all the others.
>>>
>>> Sometimes the offset is constant such as
>>> the difference between TAI and GPS time
>>>
>>> Sometimes the offset changes infrequently,
>>> such as the difference between TAI and UTC
>>> (which changes only when there is a leap
>>> second).
>>>
>>> Sometimes the offset changes continuously,
>>> such as the difference between GST (sidereal
>>> time) and GMT.
>>>
>>> This suggests that the word 'constant' is
>>> not generally appropriate and is why I am
>>> not keen on the Italian "costante locale".
>>>
>>> This is actually a false assertion when
>>> referring to local mean time versus local
>>> time-zone time because in most places the
>>> reference time zone is shifted 15 degrees
>>> backwards and forwards at the whim of
>>> legislators!  The offset is not constant!
>>>
>>> Dan-George asks:
>>>
>>>   how would you translate the Italian
>>>   "foro gnomonico"
>>>
>>> In English, this translates literally as
>>> "gnomonic hole" but this would be a bad
>>> translation!  It generally refers to the
>>> hole in the roof (or possibly a side wall)
>>> of a cathedral or large church that lets
>>> in the sun so as to cast an image of the
>>> sun on the floor.
>>>
>>> The best English equivalent is "aperture
>>> nodus" but that isn't quite the same thing.
>>> An aperture nodus provides a spot of light
>>> on the dial plate, not an image of the sun.
>>>
>>> The French "oeilleton" is more challenging!
>>> In English, this translates literally as
>>> "eye-cap" which I think of as something
>>> for medical use, for washing your eyes.
>>>
>>> I rather suspect that the French also use
>>> this to mean aperture nodus but I should
>>> like confirmation.
>>>
>>> Frank
>>>
>>> Frank King
>>> Cambridge, U.K.
>>>
>>> ---
>>> https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial
>>>
>>> ---
>> https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial
>>
>>
---
https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial

Re: dischrony

[Kurt Niel]

Dear sundialists,

within my sundial-/webcamproject https://kepleruhr.at/en/live-view I
already declared the following relationship:

UTC +
EoT (equation of time) +
EoL (equation of longitude) =
LAT (local apparent time) =
WOZ (Wahre Ortszeit) [German]

Kurt

Dan-George Uza  schrieb am Mi., 13. März 2019,
22:21:

> Perhaps "equation of longitude"?
>
> Dan Uza
>
> On Wed, Mar 13, 2019, 20:50 Julian Lush  wrote:
>
>> How about longitude adjustment?
>>
>> Julian Lush
>> 72 Bromfelde Road, London SW4 6PR
>> 020 7622 949707815 637706
>> --
>> *From:* sundial  on behalf of Frank King <
>> f...@cl.cam.ac.uk>
>> *Sent:* 13 March 2019 12:29
>> *To:* Dan-George Uza
>> *Cc:* Sundial List
>> *Subject:* Re: dischrony
>>
>> Dear All,
>>
>> I have a mild distaste for "correction" since
>> it implies something is wrong.  In particular
>> 'local mean time' and 'local mean time-zone time'
>> are both correct, but different, times.  One is
>> offset from the other but this offset is in no
>> sense a correction!
>>
>> To me "offset" is neutral.
>>
>> There are, of course, many many different
>> times in current use.  Here are just a few:
>>
>>   TAI, UTC, UT1, UT2, GMT, GST, GPS time
>>
>> None of these is wrong but each is offset
>> from all the others.
>>
>> Sometimes the offset is constant such as
>> the difference between TAI and GPS time
>>
>> Sometimes the offset changes infrequently,
>> such as the difference between TAI and UTC
>> (which changes only when there is a leap
>> second).
>>
>> Sometimes the offset changes continuously,
>> such as the difference between GST (sidereal
>> time) and GMT.
>>
>> This suggests that the word 'constant' is
>> not generally appropriate and is why I am
>> not keen on the Italian "costante locale".
>>
>> This is actually a false assertion when
>> referring to local mean time versus local
>> time-zone time because in most places the
>> reference time zone is shifted 15 degrees
>> backwards and forwards at the whim of
>> legislators!  The offset is not constant!
>>
>> Dan-George asks:
>>
>>   how would you translate the Italian
>>   "foro gnomonico"
>>
>> In English, this translates literally as
>> "gnomonic hole" but this would be a bad
>> translation!  It generally refers to the
>> hole in the roof (or possibly a side wall)
>> of a cathedral or large church that lets
>> in the sun so as to cast an image of the
>> sun on the floor.
>>
>> The best English equivalent is "aperture
>> nodus" but that isn't quite the same thing.
>> An aperture nodus provides a spot of light
>> on the dial plate, not an image of the sun.
>>
>> The French "oeilleton" is more challenging!
>> In English, this translates literally as
>> "eye-cap" which I think of as something
>> for medical use, for washing your eyes.
>>
>> I rather suspect that the French also use
>> this to mean aperture nodus but I should
>> like confirmation.
>>
>> Frank
>>
>> Frank King
>> Cambridge, U.K.
>>
>> ---
>> https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial
>>
>> ---
> https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial
>
>
---
https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial

Re: dischrony

[Dan-George Uza]

Perhaps "equation of longitude"?

Dan Uza

On Wed, Mar 13, 2019, 20:50 Julian Lush  wrote:

> How about longitude adjustment?
>
> Julian Lush
> 72 Bromfelde Road, London SW4 6PR
> 020 7622 949707815 637706
> --
> *From:* sundial  on behalf of Frank King <
> f...@cl.cam.ac.uk>
> *Sent:* 13 March 2019 12:29
> *To:* Dan-George Uza
> *Cc:* Sundial List
> *Subject:* Re: dischrony
>
> Dear All,
>
> I have a mild distaste for "correction" since
> it implies something is wrong.  In particular
> 'local mean time' and 'local mean time-zone time'
> are both correct, but different, times.  One is
> offset from the other but this offset is in no
> sense a correction!
>
> To me "offset" is neutral.
>
> There are, of course, many many different
> times in current use.  Here are just a few:
>
>   TAI, UTC, UT1, UT2, GMT, GST, GPS time
>
> None of these is wrong but each is offset
> from all the others.
>
> Sometimes the offset is constant such as
> the difference between TAI and GPS time
>
> Sometimes the offset changes infrequently,
> such as the difference between TAI and UTC
> (which changes only when there is a leap
> second).
>
> Sometimes the offset changes continuously,
> such as the difference between GST (sidereal
> time) and GMT.
>
> This suggests that the word 'constant' is
> not generally appropriate and is why I am
> not keen on the Italian "costante locale".
>
> This is actually a false assertion when
> referring to local mean time versus local
> time-zone time because in most places the
> reference time zone is shifted 15 degrees
> backwards and forwards at the whim of
> legislators!  The offset is not constant!
>
> Dan-George asks:
>
>   how would you translate the Italian
>   "foro gnomonico"
>
> In English, this translates literally as
> "gnomonic hole" but this would be a bad
> translation!  It generally refers to the
> hole in the roof (or possibly a side wall)
> of a cathedral or large church that lets
> in the sun so as to cast an image of the
> sun on the floor.
>
> The best English equivalent is "aperture
> nodus" but that isn't quite the same thing.
> An aperture nodus provides a spot of light
> on the dial plate, not an image of the sun.
>
> The French "oeilleton" is more challenging!
> In English, this translates literally as
> "eye-cap" which I think of as something
> for medical use, for washing your eyes.
>
> I rather suspect that the French also use
> this to mean aperture nodus but I should
> like confirmation.
>
> Frank
>
> Frank King
> Cambridge, U.K.
>
> ---
> https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial
>
>
---
https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial

Re: dischrony

[Michael Ossipoff]

[quote]
This [constancy] is actually a false assertion when
referring to local mean time versus local
time-zone time because in most places the
reference time zone is shifted 15 degrees
backwards and forwards at the whim of
legislators!  The offset is not constant!
[/quote]

One constant can be replaced with another.  They're constant until they're
changed. And anyway, it's fairly rare for timezones and summertime laws to
be changed.

Anyway, "Local Constant" refers to a time difference resulting from a
longitude difference, and the longitude difference is indeed constant.


[quote]

The best English equivalent [to foro gnomonico] is "aperture
nodus" but that isn't quite the same thing.
An aperture nodus provides a spot of light
on the dial plate, not an image of the sun.
[/quote]

Yes i's an image of the sun, if the ratio of hole-to-spot distance to
hole-diameter isn't much less than the ratio of the sun's distance to its
diameter.

Michael Ossipoff

2019, Week 12, Wednesday
1746 UTC


On Wed, Mar 13, 2019 at 8:30 AM Frank King  wrote:

> Dear All,
>
> I have a mild distaste for "correction" since
> it implies something is wrong.  In particular
> 'local mean time' and 'local mean time-zone time'
> are both correct, but different, times.  One is
> offset from the other but this offset is in no
> sense a correction!
>
> To me "offset" is neutral.
>
> There are, of course, many many different
> times in current use.  Here are just a few:
>
>   TAI, UTC, UT1, UT2, GMT, GST, GPS time
>
> None of these is wrong but each is offset
> from all the others.
>
> Sometimes the offset is constant such as
> the difference between TAI and GPS time
>
> Sometimes the offset changes infrequently,
> such as the difference between TAI and UTC
> (which changes only when there is a leap
> second).
>
> Sometimes the offset changes continuously,
> such as the difference between GST (sidereal
> time) and GMT.
>
> This suggests that the word 'constant' is
> not generally appropriate and is why I am
> not keen on the Italian "costante locale".
>
> This is actually a false assertion when
> referring to local mean time versus local
> time-zone time because in most places the
> reference time zone is shifted 15 degrees
> backwards and forwards at the whim of
> legislators!  The offset is not constant!
>
> Dan-George asks:
>
>   how would you translate the Italian
>   "foro gnomonico"
>
> In English, this translates literally as
> "gnomonic hole" but this would be a bad
> translation!  It generally refers to the
> hole in the roof (or possibly a side wall)
> of a cathedral or large church that lets
> in the sun so as to cast an image of the
> sun on the floor.
>
> The best English equivalent is "aperture
> nodus" but that isn't quite the same thing.
> An aperture nodus provides a spot of light
> on the dial plate, not an image of the sun.
>
> The French "oeilleton" is more challenging!
> In English, this translates literally as
> "eye-cap" which I think of as something
> for medical use, for washing your eyes.
>
> I rather suspect that the French also use
> this to mean aperture nodus but I should
> like confirmation.
>
> Frank
>
> Frank King
> Cambridge, U.K.
>
> ---
> https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial
>
>
---
https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial

Re: dischrony

[Frank King]

Dear All,

I have a mild distaste for "correction" since
it implies something is wrong.  In particular
'local mean time' and 'local mean time-zone time'
are both correct, but different, times.  One is
offset from the other but this offset is in no
sense a correction!

To me "offset" is neutral.

There are, of course, many many different
times in current use.  Here are just a few:

  TAI, UTC, UT1, UT2, GMT, GST, GPS time

None of these is wrong but each is offset
from all the others.

Sometimes the offset is constant such as
the difference between TAI and GPS time

Sometimes the offset changes infrequently,
such as the difference between TAI and UTC
(which changes only when there is a leap
second).

Sometimes the offset changes continuously,
such as the difference between GST (sidereal
time) and GMT.

This suggests that the word 'constant' is
not generally appropriate and is why I am
not keen on the Italian "costante locale".

This is actually a false assertion when
referring to local mean time versus local
time-zone time because in most places the
reference time zone is shifted 15 degrees
backwards and forwards at the whim of
legislators!  The offset is not constant!

Dan-George asks:

  how would you translate the Italian
  "foro gnomonico"

In English, this translates literally as
"gnomonic hole" but this would be a bad
translation!  It generally refers to the
hole in the roof (or possibly a side wall)
of a cathedral or large church that lets
in the sun so as to cast an image of the
sun on the floor.

The best English equivalent is "aperture
nodus" but that isn't quite the same thing.
An aperture nodus provides a spot of light
on the dial plate, not an image of the sun.

The French "oeilleton" is more challenging!
In English, this translates literally as
"eye-cap" which I think of as something
for medical use, for washing your eyes.

I rather suspect that the French also use
this to mean aperture nodus but I should
like confirmation.

Frank 

Frank King
Cambridge, U.K.

---
https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial

Re: dischrony

[Dan-George Uza]

By the way: how would you translate the Italian "foro gnomonico" or the
French "oeilleton"?

Dan Uza

On Tue, Mar 12, 2019 at 2:02 PM Frank King  wrote:

> Dear Fabio,
>
> An interesting message...
>
> > In Italy some sundials show the
> > written 'costante locale'...
>
> I find Italian gnomonic vocabulary great
> fun.  There are technical terms which
> sound very good in Italian but sound very
> odd when directly translated into English.
>
> I especially enjoy 'Foro gnomonico' and
> 'Meridiana a camera oscura'.
>
> I share your dislike of 'costante locale'.
> This could be interpreted in many ways.
> Is it the height above sea level or the
> local latitude or something else?
>
> In English I often use the word 'offset'
> and this can be 'an angular offset' or
> 'a time offset' or 'a displacement offset'
> and for 'costante locale' I would usually
> write:
>
> the local longitude offset
>
> It helps that in England, the local
> reference meridian is Greenwich but
> to be more precise I would write:
>
>   the longitude offset from the
>   reference meridian for the local
>   time zone
>
> From where I am sitting:
>
>   My longitude offset (from the
>   Greenwich meridian) is one-eighth
>   of a degree east or 30 seconds of
>   time.
>
> 'Offset' is used for angles, time
> or distance.
>
> Frank
>
> Frank King
> Cambridge, U.K.
>
>
> ---
> https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial
>
>
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Re: dischrony

[Steve Lelievre]

In my writings, I have been using the term Time Zone Offset (really, it 
should be Time Zone Meridian Offset but that would be too long).


I'm happy enough to change to some other term that is generally agreed, 
but I think the adopted term should provide an explicit indication of 
its purpose. In short, I think having 'Time Zone' in it is helpful - 
especially for newer dialists who are still developing their 
understanding of the discipline.


Steve


On 2019-03-12 9:01 a.m., Maes, F.W. wrote:
In The Netherlands we use "lengtecorrectie", abbreviated LC, which 
would translate to "longitude correction" in English.

Some (international) standardization of terminology would be nice!



On Tue, Mar 12, 2019 at 2:06 PM Michael Ossipoff 
mailto:email9648...@gmail.com>> wrote:


I usually say "Longitude-Correction".  Of course, for sundials,
it's always expressed in minutes.

But I like "Local Constant", because it's shorter.

What's wrong with "Local Constant"?   It /is/ a constant, for a
given locale.


On Tue, Mar 12, 2019 at 6:55 AM fabio.sav...@nonvedolora.it
 mailto:fabio.sav...@nonvedolora.it>> wrote:

In Italy some sundials show the written 'costante locale',
that can be
translated as 'local constant'.



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RE: dischrony

[Jack Aubert]

Yes, I agree that in English the best word would be some kind of "offset"
most likely for local longitude.   Offset has  near synonyms like
"displacement" or "correction."  But it is appropriate here because but it
generally implies either side-to-side or quantitative movement.  It also
implies compensation for something.  It can also be used for monetary
adjustments.  

But I was struck  by "dischrony."   My own version of this term is
dyschromia/dyschromic.   I came up with from dyslexic/dyslesia to describe a
quasi-medical derangement that I suffer from.  

It means a congenital inability to remember dates and times correctly.  If
you tell me a meeting is at  2:30 on March 3,  I will probably remember 1:30
on March 2 or maybe 3:30 on March 1.   I live in fear of being late for
meetings or appointments (or missing them entirely) so I usually end up
being the first person to arrive.  But this is only because I now rely on my
Iphone.  I enter everything carefully  into my phone using, 24 hour
notation, and check it compulsively before I think I may have to be
somewhere.   The time my brain remembers on its own is almost always wrong:
I once showed up for an (thankfully unimportant) group meeting an hour
early, a day late but a week early.  (Sunday at 2:00 PM for a meeting the
following Saturday at 3:00 PM.)   That was before I had a PDA or an Iphone.


Jack Aubert




-Original Message-
From: sundial  On Behalf Of Frank King
Sent: Tuesday, March 12, 2019 8:03 AM
To: fabio.sav...@nonvedolora.it
Cc: sundial@uni-koeln.de
Subject: Re: dischrony

Dear Fabio,

An interesting message...

> In Italy some sundials show the
> written 'costante locale'...

I find Italian gnomonic vocabulary great fun.  There are technical terms
which sound very good in Italian but sound very odd when directly translated
into English.

I especially enjoy 'Foro gnomonico' and
'Meridiana a camera oscura'.

I share your dislike of 'costante locale'.
This could be interpreted in many ways.
Is it the height above sea level or the
local latitude or something else?

In English I often use the word 'offset'
and this can be 'an angular offset' or
'a time offset' or 'a displacement offset'
and for 'costante locale' I would usually
write:

the local longitude offset

It helps that in England, the local
reference meridian is Greenwich but
to be more precise I would write:

  the longitude offset from the
  reference meridian for the local
  time zone

>From where I am sitting:

  My longitude offset (from the
  Greenwich meridian) is one-eighth
  of a degree east or 30 seconds of
  time.

'Offset' is used for angles, time
or distance.

Frank

Frank King
Cambridge, U.K.


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Re: dischrony

[Maes, F.W.]

Dear Fabio,

In The Netherlands we use "lengtecorrectie", abbreviated LC, which would
translate to "longitude correction" in English.
Some (international) standardization of terminology would be nice!

Best regards,
Frans Maes

On Tue, Mar 12, 2019 at 2:06 PM Michael Ossipoff 
wrote:

> I usually say "Longitude-Correction".  Of course, for sundials, it's
> always expressed in minutes.
>
> But I like "Local Constant", because it's shorter.
>
> What's wrong with "Local Constant"?   It *is* a constant, for a given
> locale.
>
> I'll probably start saying "Local Constant".
>
> Usually I don't know what the EqT is, but I know the local constant here,
> and so, for a good estimate, from Standard-Time, of Sundial-Time (Local
> True Solar Time), I just apply the local constant, adjusted for the mean of
> the annual EqT extremes, to get the least-maximum-error guess for
> Sundial-Time.
>
> Michael Ossipoff
>
> 2019, Week 12, Tuesday  (South-Solstice WeekDate Calendar)
>
>
>
> On Tue, Mar 12, 2019 at 6:55 AM fabio.sav...@nonvedolora.it <
> fabio.sav...@nonvedolora.it> wrote:
>
>> hi all, I've a matter to put to you.
>>
>> In Italy some sundials show the written 'costante locale', that can be
>> translated as 'local constant'.
>> The authors of these sundials use this expression meaning the time
>> difference between the Local Sun Time and the Time-Zone Sun Time.
>> This 'local costant' is an angle if it highlights the difference of
>> longitude or a time if it highlights the difference between the two Sun
>> Time.
>>
>> I don't really like this expression. I think that the term 'costant' is
>> misleading: the shown value depends on the selected meridian, it could
>> not be that of the Time-Zone (e.g, outside UK, the one of the national
>> observatory used in the past).
>> Moreover the term suggests that there is a not better identified costant
>> in that location but it isn't a costant, it is a choice on how to show
>> the time.
>>
>> I started to look for a more proper expression.
>> I'd like to know if there are any terms used in other languages, may be
>> that a proper expression already exists.
>> Anyway I found two italian terms that I think to propose as an
>> alternative to the italian diallists, these terms may be used also in
>> english so I'd like to know your thoughts.
>> The first term is 'dislocation' (dislocazione), it means a different
>> location and it refers to an angle.
>> The second one is 'dischrony' (discronia) and it means a different time.
>> This terms is curious because it rarely appears on the italian
>> dictionaries, it is a technical term used in the medical field to
>> indicate the cause of the 'jet lag' (while dysrhythmia is used for the
>> effects), that is: to live with a different time.
>>
>> ciao Fabio
>>
>>
>> --
>> Fabio Savian
>> fabio.sav...@nonvedolora.it
>> www.nonvedolora.eu
>> Paderno Dugnano, Milano, Italy
>> 45° 34' 9'' N, 9° 9' 54'' E, UTC +1 (DST +2)
>>
>> ---
>> https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial
>>
>> ---
> https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial
>
>
---
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Re: dischrony

[Michael Ossipoff]

I usually say "Longitude-Correction".  Of course, for sundials, it's always
expressed in minutes.

But I like "Local Constant", because it's shorter.

What's wrong with "Local Constant"?   It *is* a constant, for a given
locale.

I'll probably start saying "Local Constant".

Usually I don't know what the EqT is, but I know the local constant here,
and so, for a good estimate, from Standard-Time, of Sundial-Time (Local
True Solar Time), I just apply the local constant, adjusted for the mean of
the annual EqT extremes, to get the least-maximum-error guess for
Sundial-Time.

Michael Ossipoff

2019, Week 12, Tuesday  (South-Solstice WeekDate Calendar)



On Tue, Mar 12, 2019 at 6:55 AM fabio.sav...@nonvedolora.it <
fabio.sav...@nonvedolora.it> wrote:

> hi all, I've a matter to put to you.
>
> In Italy some sundials show the written 'costante locale', that can be
> translated as 'local constant'.
> The authors of these sundials use this expression meaning the time
> difference between the Local Sun Time and the Time-Zone Sun Time.
> This 'local costant' is an angle if it highlights the difference of
> longitude or a time if it highlights the difference between the two Sun
> Time.
>
> I don't really like this expression. I think that the term 'costant' is
> misleading: the shown value depends on the selected meridian, it could
> not be that of the Time-Zone (e.g, outside UK, the one of the national
> observatory used in the past).
> Moreover the term suggests that there is a not better identified costant
> in that location but it isn't a costant, it is a choice on how to show
> the time.
>
> I started to look for a more proper expression.
> I'd like to know if there are any terms used in other languages, may be
> that a proper expression already exists.
> Anyway I found two italian terms that I think to propose as an
> alternative to the italian diallists, these terms may be used also in
> english so I'd like to know your thoughts.
> The first term is 'dislocation' (dislocazione), it means a different
> location and it refers to an angle.
> The second one is 'dischrony' (discronia) and it means a different time.
> This terms is curious because it rarely appears on the italian
> dictionaries, it is a technical term used in the medical field to
> indicate the cause of the 'jet lag' (while dysrhythmia is used for the
> effects), that is: to live with a different time.
>
> ciao Fabio
>
>
> --
> Fabio Savian
> fabio.sav...@nonvedolora.it
> www.nonvedolora.eu
> Paderno Dugnano, Milano, Italy
> 45° 34' 9'' N, 9° 9' 54'' E, UTC +1 (DST +2)
>
> ---
> https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial
>
>
---
https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial

Re: dischrony

[Dan-George Uza]

Dear Fabio,

I use "longitude correction" ("corectie de longitudine"), but also
"meridian correction" ("corectie de meridian") would sound okay in Romanian.

Ciao,

Dan

On Tue, Mar 12, 2019 at 12:55 PM fabio.sav...@nonvedolora.it <
fabio.sav...@nonvedolora.it> wrote:

> hi all, I've a matter to put to you.
>
> In Italy some sundials show the written 'costante locale', that can be
> translated as 'local constant'.
> The authors of these sundials use this expression meaning the time
> difference between the Local Sun Time and the Time-Zone Sun Time.
> This 'local costant' is an angle if it highlights the difference of
> longitude or a time if it highlights the difference between the two Sun
> Time.
>
> I don't really like this expression. I think that the term 'costant' is
> misleading: the shown value depends on the selected meridian, it could
> not be that of the Time-Zone (e.g, outside UK, the one of the national
> observatory used in the past).
> Moreover the term suggests that there is a not better identified costant
> in that location but it isn't a costant, it is a choice on how to show
> the time.
>
> I started to look for a more proper expression.
> I'd like to know if there are any terms used in other languages, may be
> that a proper expression already exists.
> Anyway I found two italian terms that I think to propose as an
> alternative to the italian diallists, these terms may be used also in
> english so I'd like to know your thoughts.
> The first term is 'dislocation' (dislocazione), it means a different
> location and it refers to an angle.
> The second one is 'dischrony' (discronia) and it means a different time.
> This terms is curious because it rarely appears on the italian
> dictionaries, it is a technical term used in the medical field to
> indicate the cause of the 'jet lag' (while dysrhythmia is used for the
> effects), that is: to live with a different time.
>
> ciao Fabio
>
>
> --
> Fabio Savian
> fabio.sav...@nonvedolora.it
> www.nonvedolora.eu
> Paderno Dugnano, Milano, Italy
> 45° 34' 9'' N, 9° 9' 54'' E, UTC +1 (DST +2)
>
> ---
> https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial
>
>
---
https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial

Re: dischrony

[Frank King]

Dear Fabio,

An interesting message...

> In Italy some sundials show the
> written 'costante locale'...

I find Italian gnomonic vocabulary great
fun.  There are technical terms which
sound very good in Italian but sound very
odd when directly translated into English.

I especially enjoy 'Foro gnomonico' and
'Meridiana a camera oscura'.

I share your dislike of 'costante locale'.
This could be interpreted in many ways.
Is it the height above sea level or the
local latitude or something else?

In English I often use the word 'offset'
and this can be 'an angular offset' or
'a time offset' or 'a displacement offset'
and for 'costante locale' I would usually
write:

the local longitude offset

It helps that in England, the local
reference meridian is Greenwich but
to be more precise I would write:

  the longitude offset from the
  reference meridian for the local
  time zone

>From where I am sitting:

  My longitude offset (from the
  Greenwich meridian) is one-eighth
  of a degree east or 30 seconds of
  time.

'Offset' is used for angles, time
or distance.

Frank

Frank King
Cambridge, U.K.


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