Re: [Sursound] Distance perception (really speaker wire discussion!)

[Carsten Bohn]

Hi group!

I usually don't comment very often cause most threads are "out of my 
league knowledge-wise" ;-)

But today I feel tempted to comment on this amazingl amusingly subject :

The review comments on Amazon for the Audio Quest K2 speaker cable 
are very entertaining in the most:


http://www.amazon.com/AudioQuest-K2-terminated-speaker-cable/product-reviews/B000J36XR2/

Certainly more interesting than some dubious pseudo-expert 'review'


Thanks for the lead - I checked another offer within the same strange 
price range, and the

review comments also quite entertaining :

http://www.amazon.com/AudioQuest-Volcano-terminated-speaker-cable/dp/B000J38N

sorry if you read that one already - I heard of some highroller 
prices, but haven't seen this kind ;-)


and now back to your more serious comments

with best regards from Hamburg
CB
--
Carsten Bohn
BigNoteMusic
Bogenstr.52, 20144 Hamburg/Germany
fon : 0049 - 40 - 420 97 98
fax : 0049 - 40 - 420 96 47
email : c...@bignote.de
website: http://www.bignote.de
fansite: http://www.bohn-musik.de
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Re: [Sursound] Distance perception (really speaker wire discussion!)

[Neil Waterman]

The review comments on Amazon for the Audio Quest K2 speaker cable are 
very entertaining in the most:


http://www.amazon.com/AudioQuest-K2-terminated-speaker-cable/product-reviews/B000J36XR2/

Certainly more interesting than some dubious pseudo-expert 'review'

- Neil


On 7/28/2011 1:03 PM, Robert Greene wrote:


All of this arises in my view from two  simple things:
1 People in audio do not check things double blind
and
2 People in audio do not normalize things for frequency response
and do not do precision measurements of frequency response.

Point 1 is obvious. About point 2: Small shifts in frequency response
occur for a wide variety of reasons, cables among them. If the shifts
are indeed small, down near the 0.1 dB threshold(approximately), then 
the changes heard are not always of the overt tonal nature--brighter, 
more or less bass, nore or less midrange forward and so on--but are 
often of
the nature of things like "transparency" and other poetic and 
imprecise audiophile words. So one could in fact end up hearing an 
improvement--or what could seem like an improvement--from changing 
cables, simply

because there was a microshift in frequency response.

No sensible person would pay a lot of money to get such a micro-shift 
in frequency response. But if one did not KNOW that that was what it was,

I suppose a certain kind of person might be inclined to pay a lot of
money for "increased transparency".  Words count. A trivial thing like
a tiny lift around 6k can be made nontrivial to some people by giving
it an impressive name, like transparency.

I have heard otherwise sensible people claim that transaparency is an 
independent thing, outside the realm of ordinary audio measurements 
and phenomena. This is of course nonsense. But it is a kind of 
nonsense that propagates all too readily among people who do not 
understand at all how

audio works but who have spent a lot of time listening to it.

Robert

On Wed, 27 Jul 2011, Danny McCarty wrote:

Funny, I read the company's name as "Synthetic Research". Much more 
appropriate.


On Jul 27, 2011, at 3:35 PM, Paul Doornbusch wrote:

The shock, and potentially the most snake-oil, could be from the 
$40,000 for these Galileo speaker cables (poor old Galileo probably 
does not even get any royalties from them using his esteemed name): 
http://www.synergisticresearch.com/galileo-system/galileo-system-speaker-cable/

reviewed here
http://www.avguide.com/review/synergistic-research-galileo-cable-and-interconnect-tas-210 



my brother pointed this out to me, coincidentally, on Monday.
p.


A few surprising shocks ought to be enough to shake the more 
reticent ones loose. After that, just leave the negative pole 
connected on the upper end, and you'll have a fresh start in the 
morning. The electrons will thank you too!


havent you heard of tired electron distortion ? (TID). the 
electrons in speaker wire get tired moving back and forth and 
not going anywhere. the solution is to disconnect the speaker 
every few hours connect a battery one side and short the other, 
so all the old electrons can be flushed out (i think i read this 
in the wireless world)


Alternatively you can have spare cables, and slowly drain them 
over night in an upright position.

--
Sampo Syreeni, aka decoy - de...@iki.fi, http://decoy.iki.fi/front
+358-50-5756111, 025E D175 ABE5 027C 9494 EEB0 E090 8BA9 0509 85C2
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Danny McCarty
Monolith Media, Inc.
4183 Summit View
Hood River, Or 97031

415-331-7628
541-399-0089 Cell

http://www.monolithmedia.net/

http://www.danielmccarty.com/














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Re: [Sursound] Distance perception (really speaker wire discussion!)

[Robert Greene]

All of this arises in my view from two  simple things:
1 People in audio do not check things double blind
and
2 People in audio do not normalize things for frequency response
and do not do precision measurements of frequency response.

Point 1 is obvious. About point 2: Small shifts in frequency response
occur for a wide variety of reasons, cables among them. If the shifts
are indeed small, down near the 0.1 dB threshold(approximately), then the 
changes heard are not always of the overt tonal nature--brighter, more or 
less bass, nore or less midrange forward and so on--but are often of
the nature of things like "transparency" and other poetic and imprecise 
audiophile words. So one could in fact end up hearing an improvement--or 
what could seem like an improvement--from changing cables, simply

because there was a microshift in frequency response.

No sensible person would pay a lot of money to get such a micro-shift in 
frequency response. But if one did not KNOW that that was what it was,

I suppose a certain kind of person might be inclined to pay a lot of
money for "increased transparency".  Words count. A trivial thing like
a tiny lift around 6k can be made nontrivial to some people by giving
it an impressive name, like transparency.

I have heard otherwise sensible people claim that transaparency is an 
independent thing, outside the realm of ordinary audio measurements and 
phenomena. This is of course nonsense. But it is a kind of nonsense that 
propagates all too readily among people who do not understand at all how

audio works but who have spent a lot of time listening to it.

Robert

On Wed, 27 Jul 2011, Danny McCarty wrote:


Funny, I read the company's name as "Synthetic Research". Much more appropriate.

On Jul 27, 2011, at 3:35 PM, Paul Doornbusch wrote:


The shock, and potentially the most snake-oil, could be from the $40,000 for 
these Galileo speaker cables (poor old Galileo probably does not even get any 
royalties from them using his esteemed name): 
http://www.synergisticresearch.com/galileo-system/galileo-system-speaker-cable/
reviewed here
http://www.avguide.com/review/synergistic-research-galileo-cable-and-interconnect-tas-210

my brother pointed this out to me, coincidentally, on Monday.
p.



A few surprising shocks ought to be enough to shake the more reticent ones 
loose. After that, just leave the negative pole connected on the upper end, and 
you'll have a fresh start in the morning. The electrons will thank you too!


havent you heard of tired electron distortion ? (TID). the electrons in speaker 
wire get tired moving back and forth and not going anywhere. the solution is to 
disconnect the speaker every few hours connect a battery one side and short the 
other, so all the old electrons can be flushed out (i think i read this in the 
wireless world)


Alternatively you can have spare cables, and slowly drain them over night in an 
upright position.

--
Sampo Syreeni, aka decoy - de...@iki.fi, http://decoy.iki.fi/front
+358-50-5756111, 025E D175 ABE5 027C 9494 EEB0 E090 8BA9 0509 85C2
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Danny McCarty
Monolith Media, Inc.
4183 Summit View
Hood River, Or 97031

415-331-7628
541-399-0089 Cell

http://www.monolithmedia.net/

http://www.danielmccarty.com/














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Re: [Sursound] Distance perception (really speaker wire discussion!)

[umashankar mantravadi]

certain kinds of sounds (like the hindu om, which has to produced while 
breathing in) or known to slow the universe down, including the electrons in 
loudspeaker wires - even extremely snake-y wires. the result after a time is 
that the electrons pool in the wire and form a bose-einstein condensate. (no i 
did not read about this in the wireless world). i dont like bose loudspeakers 
so it is not subliminal advertising either. umashankar

i have published my poems. read (or buy) at http://stores.lulu.com/umashankar
 > Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2011 07:57:48 +0100
> From: dave.mal...@york.ac.uk
> To: sursound@music.vt.edu
> Subject: Re: [Sursound] Distance perception (really speaker wire discussion!)
> 
> Arghhh - I shouldn't have let this out of the bag - there's clearly a 
> _massive_ EU research funding opportunity here - now, how do I go about 
> obtaining time on the large Hadron Collider???
> 
> Dave M.
> 
> On Jul 28 2011, dave.mal...@york.ac.uk wrote:
> 
> >Hang on, hang on - if the electrons exceed the speed of light then either
> >
> > a: their mass will go infinite and the cable will implode into a mini 
> > black hole
> >
> >or
> >
> >b: they will decay into tachyons resulting in the sound coming out of the 
> >speaker before it has even been recorded
> >
> >
> >Dav M.
> >
> >On Jul 27 2011, David Worrall wrote:
> >
> >> I have been browsing this list long enough to observe that this 
> >> phenomena only occurs (or at least is only reported, on this list, 
> >> albeit with annual regularity) in Northern Hemisphere summers.
> >>
> >> Down under, the summers are so hot that the electrons want to pass 
> >> through cable as quickly as possible, so they exhibit an exact opposite 
> >> characteristic: Temporal Intensification Dilation (also DIT, 
> >> unfortunately); thought to be the caused as them exceeding the speed of 
> >> light in order to 'get the f*** outa there'.
> >>
> >> The phenomena can be reversed, or at least alleviated from a 3rd person 
> >> perspective, by plugging the cables into a live mains socket and biting 
> >> hard on the other end.
> >>
> >>David
> >>On 28/07/2011, at 3:42 AM, Sampo Syreeni wrote:
> >>
> >>> On 2011-07-27, umashankar mantravadi wrote:
> >>> 
> >>>> havent you heard of tired electron distortion ? (TID). the electrons 
> >>>> in speaker wire get tired moving back and forth and not going 
> >>>> anywhere. the solution is to disconnect the speaker every few hours 
> >>>> connect a battery one side and short the other, so all the old 
> >>>> electrons can be flushed out (i think i read this in the wireless 
> >>>> world)
> >>> 
> >>> Alternatively you can have spare cables, and slowly drain them over 
> >>> night in an upright position.
> >>> -- 
> >>> Sampo Syreeni, aka decoy - de...@iki.fi, http://decoy.iki.fi/front
> >>> +358-50-5756111, 025E D175 ABE5 027C 9494 EEB0 E090 8BA9 0509 85C2
> >>> ___
> >>> Sursound mailing list
> >>> Sursound@music.vt.edu
> >>> https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound
> >>
> >>_
> >>Dr David Worrall
> >>Adjunct Research Fellow, Australian National University
> >>david.worr...@anu.edu.au
> >>Board Member, International Community for Auditory Display
> >>Regional Editor, Organised Sound (CUP) 
> >>IT Projects, Music Council of Australia 
> >>worrall.avatar.com.au   sonification.com.au
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> -- next part -- An HTML attachment was 
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> >>  
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> >> Sursound@music.vt.edu 
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Re: [Sursound] Distance perception (really speaker wire discussion!)

[David Worrall]

a: in the northern hemisphere - because there are more people (masses- Kyrie 
Eleison!) and
b: in the southern hemisphere - which is why the electroacoustic music is so 
'advanced' there

drw

On 28/07/2011, at 4:50 PM, dave.mal...@york.ac.uk wrote:

> Hang on, hang on - if the electrons exceed the speed of light then either
> 
> a: their mass will go infinite and the cable will implode into a mini black 
> hole
> 
> or
> 
> b: they will decay into tachyons resulting in the sound coming out of the 
> speaker before it has even been recorded
> 
> 
>   Dav M.
> 
> On Jul 27 2011, David Worrall wrote:
> 
>> I have been browsing this list long enough to observe that this phenomena 
>> only occurs (or at least is only reported, on this list, albeit with annual 
>> regularity) in Northern Hemisphere summers.
>> 
>> Down under, the summers are so hot that the electrons want to pass through 
>> cable as quickly as possible, so they exhibit an exact opposite 
>> characteristic: Temporal Intensification Dilation (also DIT, unfortunately); 
>> thought to be the caused as them exceeding the speed of light in order to 
>> 'get the f*** outa there'.
>> 
>> The phenomena can be reversed, or at least alleviated from a 3rd person 
>> perspective, by plugging the cables into a live mains socket and biting hard 
>> on the other end.
>> 
>> David
>> On 28/07/2011, at 3:42 AM, Sampo Syreeni wrote:
>> 
>>> On 2011-07-27, umashankar mantravadi wrote:
 havent you heard of tired electron distortion ? (TID). the electrons in 
 speaker wire get tired moving back and forth and not going anywhere. the 
 solution is to disconnect the speaker every few hours connect a battery 
 one side and short the other, so all the old electrons can be flushed out 
 (i think i read this in the wireless world)
>>> Alternatively you can have spare cables, and slowly drain them over night 
>>> in an upright position.
>>> -- 
>>> Sampo Syreeni, aka decoy - de...@iki.fi, http://decoy.iki.fi/front
>>> +358-50-5756111, 025E D175 ABE5 027C 9494 EEB0 E090 8BA9 0509 85C2
>>> 

> 
> 
> ___
> Sursound mailing list
> Sursound@music.vt.edu
> https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound

_
Dr David Worrall
Adjunct Research Fellow, Australian National University
david.worr...@anu.edu.au
Board Member, International Community for Auditory Display
Regional Editor, Organised Sound (CUP) 
IT Projects, Music Council of Australia 
worrall.avatar.com.au   sonification.com.au




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Re: [Sursound] Distance perception (really speaker wire discussion!)

[dave . malham]

Arghhh - I shouldn't have let this out of the bag - there's clearly a 
_massive_ EU research funding opportunity here - now, how do I go about 
obtaining time on the large Hadron Collider???


   Dave M.

On Jul 28 2011, dave.mal...@york.ac.uk wrote:


Hang on, hang on - if the electrons exceed the speed of light then either

a: their mass will go infinite and the cable will implode into a mini 
black hole


or

b: they will decay into tachyons resulting in the sound coming out of the 
speaker before it has even been recorded



   Dav M.

On Jul 27 2011, David Worrall wrote:

I have been browsing this list long enough to observe that this 
phenomena only occurs (or at least is only reported, on this list, 
albeit with annual regularity) in Northern Hemisphere summers.


Down under, the summers are so hot that the electrons want to pass 
through cable as quickly as possible, so they exhibit an exact opposite 
characteristic: Temporal Intensification Dilation (also DIT, 
unfortunately); thought to be the caused as them exceeding the speed of 
light in order to 'get the f*** outa there'.


The phenomena can be reversed, or at least alleviated from a 3rd person 
perspective, by plugging the cables into a live mains socket and biting 
hard on the other end.


David
On 28/07/2011, at 3:42 AM, Sampo Syreeni wrote:


On 2011-07-27, umashankar mantravadi wrote:

havent you heard of tired electron distortion ? (TID). the electrons 
in speaker wire get tired moving back and forth and not going 
anywhere. the solution is to disconnect the speaker every few hours 
connect a battery one side and short the other, so all the old 
electrons can be flushed out (i think i read this in the wireless 
world)


Alternatively you can have spare cables, and slowly drain them over 
night in an upright position.

--
Sampo Syreeni, aka decoy - de...@iki.fi, http://decoy.iki.fi/front
+358-50-5756111, 025E D175 ABE5 027C 9494 EEB0 E090 8BA9 0509 85C2
___
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_
Dr David Worrall
Adjunct Research Fellow, Australian National University
david.worr...@anu.edu.au
Board Member, International Community for Auditory Display
Regional Editor, Organised Sound (CUP) 
IT Projects, Music Council of Australia 
worrall.avatar.com.au	sonification.com.au





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Re: [Sursound] Distance perception (really speaker wire discussion!)

[dave . malham]

Hang on, hang on - if the electrons exceed the speed of light then either

a: their mass will go infinite and the cable will implode into a mini black 
hole


or

b: they will decay into tachyons resulting in the sound coming out of the 
speaker before it has even been recorded



   Dav M.

On Jul 27 2011, David Worrall wrote:

I have been browsing this list long enough to observe that this phenomena 
only occurs (or at least is only reported, on this list, albeit with 
annual regularity) in Northern Hemisphere summers.


Down under, the summers are so hot that the electrons want to pass 
through cable as quickly as possible, so they exhibit an exact opposite 
characteristic: Temporal Intensification Dilation (also DIT, 
unfortunately); thought to be the caused as them exceeding the speed of 
light in order to 'get the f*** outa there'.


The phenomena can be reversed, or at least alleviated from a 3rd person 
perspective, by plugging the cables into a live mains socket and biting 
hard on the other end.


David
On 28/07/2011, at 3:42 AM, Sampo Syreeni wrote:


On 2011-07-27, umashankar mantravadi wrote:

havent you heard of tired electron distortion ? (TID). the electrons 
in speaker wire get tired moving back and forth and not going anywhere. 
the solution is to disconnect the speaker every few hours connect a 
battery one side and short the other, so all the old electrons can be 
flushed out (i think i read this in the wireless world)


Alternatively you can have spare cables, and slowly drain them over 
night in an upright position.

--
Sampo Syreeni, aka decoy - de...@iki.fi, http://decoy.iki.fi/front
+358-50-5756111, 025E D175 ABE5 027C 9494 EEB0 E090 8BA9 0509 85C2
___
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_
Dr David Worrall
Adjunct Research Fellow, Australian National University
david.worr...@anu.edu.au
Board Member, International Community for Auditory Display
Regional Editor, Organised Sound (CUP) 
IT Projects, Music Council of Australia 
worrall.avatar.com.au	sonification.com.au





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Re: [Sursound] Distance perception (really speaker wire discussion!)

[Jörn Nettingsmeier]

On 07/28/2011 05:25 AM, Jörn Nettingsmeier wrote:

On 07/28/2011 12:35 AM, Paul Doornbusch wrote:

The shock, and potentially the most snake-oil, could be from the
$40,000 for these Galileo speaker cables (poor old Galileo probably
does not even get any royalties from them using his esteemed name):
http://www.synergisticresearch.com/galileo-system/galileo-system-speaker-cable/



this is funny.

 > reviewed here

http://www.avguide.com/review/synergistic-research-galileo-cable-and-interconnect-tas-210



this is sad.



before i could avert my eyes, i saw this critique of a power strip:

“Revisiting Norah Jones’ Come Away with Me revealed the system to have 
much improved resolution. This in turn yielded far more subtle nuance 
and tonal color that afforded me much higher cognitive recognition of 
the lyrics and much deeper emotional connection with the music. I was 
literally moved to tears“, Rick Becker, Enjoy The Music [...]


"i like bob dylan's "the gaslight tapes", a horrible bootleg, over my 
dead cheap cd player, 80s run-of-the-mill amplifier and spherical coax 
speakers with lamp cord. i have stable, reliable emotional connection 
with the music and absolute cognitive recognition of the lyrics. i'm 
moving myself to tears by banging my head into a door, repeatedly, until 
i feel better." -jörn, Whither, sixteen-ton weight, now that we need you 
most?




--
Jörn Nettingsmeier
Lortzingstr. 11, 45128 Essen, Tel. +49 177 7937487

Meister für Veranstaltungstechnik (Bühne/Studio)
Tonmeister (VDT)

http://stackingdwarves.net
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Re: [Sursound] Distance perception (really speaker wire discussion!)

[Jörn Nettingsmeier]

On 07/28/2011 12:35 AM, Paul Doornbusch wrote:

The shock, and potentially the most snake-oil, could be from the
$40,000 for these Galileo speaker cables (poor old Galileo probably
does not even get any royalties from them using his esteemed name):
http://www.synergisticresearch.com/galileo-system/galileo-system-speaker-cable/


this is funny.

> reviewed here

http://www.avguide.com/review/synergistic-research-galileo-cable-and-interconnect-tas-210


this is sad.

--
Jörn Nettingsmeier
Lortzingstr. 11, 45128 Essen, Tel. +49 177 7937487

Meister für Veranstaltungstechnik (Bühne/Studio)
Tonmeister (VDT)

http://stackingdwarves.net
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Re: [Sursound] Distance perception (really speaker wire discussion!)

[Danny McCarty]

Funny, I read the company's name as "Synthetic Research". Much more appropriate.

On Jul 27, 2011, at 3:35 PM, Paul Doornbusch wrote:

> The shock, and potentially the most snake-oil, could be from the $40,000 for 
> these Galileo speaker cables (poor old Galileo probably does not even get any 
> royalties from them using his esteemed name): 
> http://www.synergisticresearch.com/galileo-system/galileo-system-speaker-cable/
> reviewed here
> http://www.avguide.com/review/synergistic-research-galileo-cable-and-interconnect-tas-210
> 
> my brother pointed this out to me, coincidentally, on Monday.
> p.
> 
> 
>> A few surprising shocks ought to be enough to shake the more reticent ones 
>> loose. After that, just leave the negative pole connected on the upper end, 
>> and you'll have a fresh start in the morning. The electrons will thank you 
>> too!
>> 
> havent you heard of tired electron distortion ? (TID). the electrons in 
> speaker wire get tired moving back and forth and not going anywhere. the 
> solution is to disconnect the speaker every few hours connect a battery 
> one side and short the other, so all the old electrons can be flushed out 
> (i think i read this in the wireless world)
 
 Alternatively you can have spare cables, and slowly drain them over night 
 in an upright position.
>> --
>> Sampo Syreeni, aka decoy - de...@iki.fi, http://decoy.iki.fi/front
>> +358-50-5756111, 025E D175 ABE5 027C 9494 EEB0 E090 8BA9 0509 85C2
>> ___
>> Sursound mailing list
>> Sursound@music.vt.edu
>> https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound
> 
> ___
> Sursound mailing list
> Sursound@music.vt.edu
> https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound

Danny McCarty
Monolith Media, Inc.
4183 Summit View
Hood River, Or 97031

415-331-7628
541-399-0089 Cell

http://www.monolithmedia.net/

http://www.danielmccarty.com/














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Re: [Sursound] Distance perception (really speaker wire discussion!)

[Paul Doornbusch]

The shock, and potentially the most snake-oil, could be from the $40,000 for 
these Galileo speaker cables (poor old Galileo probably does not even get any 
royalties from them using his esteemed name): 
http://www.synergisticresearch.com/galileo-system/galileo-system-speaker-cable/
reviewed here
http://www.avguide.com/review/synergistic-research-galileo-cable-and-interconnect-tas-210

my brother pointed this out to me, coincidentally, on Monday.
p.


>A few surprising shocks ought to be enough to shake the more reticent ones 
>loose. After that, just leave the negative pole connected on the upper end, 
>and you'll have a fresh start in the morning. The electrons will thank you too!
>
havent you heard of tired electron distortion ? (TID). the electrons in 
speaker wire get tired moving back and forth and not going anywhere. the 
solution is to disconnect the speaker every few hours connect a battery one 
side and short the other, so all the old electrons can be flushed out (i 
think i read this in the wireless world)
>>>
>>>Alternatively you can have spare cables, and slowly drain them over night in 
>>>an upright position.
>--
>Sampo Syreeni, aka decoy - de...@iki.fi, http://decoy.iki.fi/front
>+358-50-5756111, 025E D175 ABE5 027C 9494 EEB0 E090 8BA9 0509 85C2
>___
>Sursound mailing list
>Sursound@music.vt.edu
>https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound

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Re: [Sursound] Distance perception (really speaker wire discussion!)

[Sampo Syreeni]

On 2011-07-27, dave.mal...@york.ac.uk wrote:

If you have a suitable LiOn battery pack, shorting the terminals out 
with the cable perks up most the tired electrons - and the subsequent 
explosion will remove any that are too far gone...


A few surprising shocks ought to be enough to shake the more reticent 
ones loose. After that, just leave the negative pole connected on the 
upper end, and you'll have a fresh start in the morning. The electrons 
will thank you too!


havent you heard of tired electron distortion ? (TID). the electrons 
in speaker wire get tired moving back and forth and not going 
anywhere. the solution is to disconnect the speaker every few hours 
connect a battery one side and short the other, so all the old 
electrons can be flushed out (i think i read this in the wireless 
world)


Alternatively you can have spare cables, and slowly drain them over 
night in an upright position.

--
Sampo Syreeni, aka decoy - de...@iki.fi, http://decoy.iki.fi/front
+358-50-5756111, 025E D175 ABE5 027C 9494 EEB0 E090 8BA9 0509 85C2
___
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Re: [Sursound] Distance perception (really speaker wire discussion!)

[David Worrall]

I have been browsing this list long enough to observe that this phenomena only 
occurs (or at least is only reported, on this list, albeit with annual 
regularity) in Northern Hemisphere summers.

Down under, the summers are so hot that the electrons want to pass through 
cable as quickly as possible, so they exhibit an exact opposite characteristic: 
Temporal Intensification Dilation (also DIT, unfortunately); thought to be the 
caused as them exceeding the speed of light in order to 'get the f*** outa 
there'. 

The phenomena can be reversed, or at least alleviated from a 3rd person 
perspective, by plugging the cables into a live mains socket and biting hard on 
the other end.

David
On 28/07/2011, at 3:42 AM, Sampo Syreeni wrote:

> On 2011-07-27, umashankar mantravadi wrote:
> 
>> havent you heard of tired electron distortion ? (TID). the electrons in 
>> speaker wire get tired moving back and forth and not going anywhere. the 
>> solution is to disconnect the speaker every few hours connect a battery one 
>> side and short the other, so all the old electrons can be flushed out (i 
>> think i read this in the wireless world)
> 
> Alternatively you can have spare cables, and slowly drain them over night in 
> an upright position.
> -- 
> Sampo Syreeni, aka decoy - de...@iki.fi, http://decoy.iki.fi/front
> +358-50-5756111, 025E D175 ABE5 027C 9494 EEB0 E090 8BA9 0509 85C2
> ___
> Sursound mailing list
> Sursound@music.vt.edu
> https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound

_
Dr David Worrall
Adjunct Research Fellow, Australian National University
david.worr...@anu.edu.au
Board Member, International Community for Auditory Display
Regional Editor, Organised Sound (CUP) 
IT Projects, Music Council of Australia 
worrall.avatar.com.au   sonification.com.au




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Re: [Sursound] Distance perception (really speaker wire discussion!)

[Marc Lavallée]

TED must be related to TLT:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tired_light_theory

With very long cables, even a few light years long, what happens?

--
Marc

Le Wed, 27 Jul 2011 17:52:58 +0530,
umashankar mantravadi  a écrit :

> 
> havent you heard of tired electron distortion ? (TID). the electrons
> in speaker wire get tired moving back and forth and not going
> anywhere. the solution is to disconnect the speaker every few hours
> connect a battery one side and short the other, so all the old
> electrons can be flushed out (i think i read this in the wireless
> world) umashankar
> 
> i have published my poems. read (or buy) at
> http://stores.lulu.com/umashankar
>  > From: neil.water...@asti-usa.com
> > Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2011 08:20:02 -0400
> > To: sursound@music.vt.edu
> > Subject: Re: [Sursound] Distance perception (really speaker wire
> > discussion!)
> > 
> > I wrote the following as a guide for internal use at my work-place
> > a few years back:
> > 
> > One "don't" that I hold close is this: Don't be mislead by the many
> > "snake oil and, smoke and mirrors" cable vendors that seem to imbue
> > speaker cables with magical (and astronomically expensive)
> > properties. No matter what Monster Cable, Audioquest, or Cardas
> > claim (or any other esoteric speaker wire manufacturer for that
> > matter), there has never been any proof in any unbiased listen test
> > that there is any benefit from using these "snake oil, and smoke
> > and mirrors" inventions. [I still stand absolutely by this
> > statement... if you are one of the sad souls that believe they can
> > hear a difference, then you deserve to waste ALL your money on
> > magical items - I have some acoustic candles for sale > they cost
> > $1000 each and you must use one per speaker in your listening
> > room the benefits are "when lit, you can find each speaker when
> > you turn the lights off").
> > 
> > The most amusing claim is that some speaker wires are
> > directional... yes, some manufacturers have decided that their
> > cables must be installed in a particular orientation (usually
> > indicated by an arrow printed on the outer jacket of the cable
> > indicating the direction from the amp to the speaker that the wire
> > is "designed" to be used. All sorts of claims are made trying to
> > justify this. However speakers are inherently AC (Alternating
> > Current) devices, and hence the electrons in a speaker wire spend
> > just as much time traveling in one direction, as they do the other,
> > so there is no fathomable reasoning that explains just how a
> > speaker cable can possibly be directional, well excepting possibly
> > being able to charge 10 times more to cover the cost of printing
> > the arrows...  In fact if you consider this claim further, the more
> > you realize the "wacko" aspect to this - if the cable truly did
> > work better in one direction versus the other, then the resultant
> > sound cannot possibly be an
>  yt
> >  hing other than distorted when the electrons are flowing in the
> > reverse direction!
> > 
> > Another odd claim heard for some of the astoundingly expensive
> > speaker connects on the market* is that 'normal' speaker cables
> > exhibit some resonance in the audio band, due to their claimed
> > transmission line properties (since it is common to model a cable
> > as an RLC network). While the RLC model is not invalid, the
> > (usually unsubstantiated) claim that the resonance occurs in the
> > audio band (most often mentioned is 1.5kHz), is very easily proven
> > through basic electronic math to be hopelessly incorrect, and even
> > for a long 50 foot 10AWG cable of quite humble specification, the
> > resonant frequency calculates out to be 2.02MHz (some 2 magnitudes
> > beyond human hearing)! In reality cables  DO NOT  resonate at all!
> > The model represented here is single RLC lumped circuit for
> > simplicity and is only accurate at audio frequencies for circuit
> > analysis. A speaker cable is actually a distributed element and
> > should be represented as infinite number of lumped RLC models. As
> > an infinite number
>   o
> >  f lumped RLC circuits are modeled becoming its true distributed
> > form factor, we see the resonance frequency go to infinity. 
> > 
> > In order to shorten this discussion the most basic don't is, don't
> > buy any cable that claims anything other than the simple design
> > goal of connecting an amplifier to a speaker.
> > 
> > So wha

Re: [Sursound] Distance perception (really speaker wire discussion!)

[dave . malham]

If you have a suitable LiOn battery pack, shorting the terminals out with 
the cable perks up most the tired electrons - and the subsequent explosion 
will remove any that are too far gone...


On Jul 27 2011, Sampo Syreeni wrote:


On 2011-07-27, umashankar mantravadi wrote:

havent you heard of tired electron distortion ? (TID). the electrons 
in speaker wire get tired moving back and forth and not going 
anywhere. the solution is to disconnect the speaker every few hours 
connect a battery one side and short the other, so all the old 
electrons can be flushed out (i think i read this in the wireless 
world)


Alternatively you can have spare cables, and slowly drain them over 
night in an upright position.




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Re: [Sursound] Distance perception (really speaker wire discussion!)

[Sampo Syreeni]

On 2011-07-27, umashankar mantravadi wrote:

havent you heard of tired electron distortion ? (TID). the electrons 
in speaker wire get tired moving back and forth and not going 
anywhere. the solution is to disconnect the speaker every few hours 
connect a battery one side and short the other, so all the old 
electrons can be flushed out (i think i read this in the wireless 
world)


Alternatively you can have spare cables, and slowly drain them over 
night in an upright position.

--
Sampo Syreeni, aka decoy - de...@iki.fi, http://decoy.iki.fi/front
+358-50-5756111, 025E D175 ABE5 027C 9494 EEB0 E090 8BA9 0509 85C2
___
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Re: [Sursound] Distance perception (really speaker wire discussion!)

[Thomas Wilkinson]

"I can't believe I ate the whole thing" "You ate it, Ralph"
Alka-Seltzer
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VFKifpMtlNs

-Original Message-
From: sursound-boun...@music.vt.edu [mailto:sursound-boun...@music.vt.edu]
On Behalf Of Robert Greene
Sent: Wednesday, July 27, 2011 11:50 AM
To: Surround Sound discussion group
Subject: Re: [Sursound] Distance perception (really speaker wire
discussion!)


I found this message really intriguing since the rabbit is
really in an ad for Energizer batteries not Duracell.
One wonders why advertising is useful! I have had
exactly the same experience. The ads are memorable,
but what they are ads FOR is not.
"Better than the original"--who can forget the old
master at the easel. But what was being advertised?
"It's not nice to fool Mother Nature'. What was
that an ad for?
"I can't believe I ate the whole thing" "You ate it, Ralph"
--unforgettable 
but what was the product?
I suppose this is good--the culture is added to without
benefit to the probably undeserving!

Robert

On Wed, 27 Jul 2011, Richard wrote:

> Surely a Duracell would be perfect for the job, I mean, it does wonders
for that rabbit...
>
>
>  The problem with using a cheap battery for doing this is that
>  those electrons which are really not able to move anymore (for
>  example those having a broken leg, the result of smashing into
>  another one going in the opposite direction) are not flushed
>  out, but merely reduced to debris that will impede the flow
>  of the new electrons.
>
>  To really clean up your cable you need something more
>  sophisticated and expensive, the more expensive the
>  better.
>
>  --
>  FA
>
>
>  ___
>  Sursound mailing list
>  Sursound@music.vt.edu
>  https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound
>
>
>  -
>  No virus found in this message.
>  Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
>  Version: 10.0.1390 / Virus Database: 1518/3790 - Release Date: 07/26/11
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Re: [Sursound] Distance perception (really speaker wire discussion!)

[Robert Greene]

I found this message really intriguing since the rabbit is
really in an ad for Energizer batteries not Duracell.
One wonders why advertising is useful! I have had
exactly the same experience. The ads are memorable,
but what they are ads FOR is not.
"Better than the original"--who can forget the old
master at the easel. But what was being advertised?
"It's not nice to fool Mother Nature'. What was
that an ad for?
"I can't believe I ate the whole thing" "You ate it, Ralph"
--unforgettable 
but what was the product?

I suppose this is good--the culture is added to without
benefit to the probably undeserving!

Robert

On Wed, 27 Jul 2011, Richard wrote:


Surely a Duracell would be perfect for the job, I mean, it does wonders for 
that rabbit...


 The problem with using a cheap battery for doing this is that
 those electrons which are really not able to move anymore (for
 example those having a broken leg, the result of smashing into
 another one going in the opposite direction) are not flushed
 out, but merely reduced to debris that will impede the flow
 of the new electrons.

 To really clean up your cable you need something more
 sophisticated and expensive, the more expensive the
 better.

 --
 FA


 ___
 Sursound mailing list
 Sursound@music.vt.edu
 https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound


 -
 No virus found in this message.
 Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
 Version: 10.0.1390 / Virus Database: 1518/3790 - Release Date: 07/26/11
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Re: [Sursound] Distance perception (really speaker wire discussion!)

[Michael Chapman]

Am I missing something?

You send electrons and the speaker cone moves out, o.k.
It comes back by itself.
But surely you want it to move _in_ as well? How do you
do that without positrons.

(I think that's right, most things in surround sound
seem counter-intuitive: So I doubt if it is positrons
out / electrons in?)

Anyway, I've learnt something: I always thought the
little arrows on all my speaker cables meant they were
made by workers in prisons (or is the arrow as a prison
sign non-ISO / ITU?).

Michael

> On Wed, Jul 27, 2011 at 05:52:58PM +0530, umashankar mantravadi wrote:
>
>> havent you heard of tired electron distortion ? (TID). the electrons in
>> speaker wire get tired moving back and forth and not going anywhere. the
>> solution is to disconnect the speaker every few hours connect a battery
>> one side and short the other, so all the old electrons can be flushed
>> out (i think i read this in the wireless world) umashankar
>
> The problem with using a cheap battery for doing this is that
> those electrons which are really not able to move anymore (for
> example those having a broken leg, the result of smashing into
> another one going in the opposite direction) are not flushed
> out, but merely reduced to debris that will impede the flow
> of the new electrons.
>
> To really clean up your cable you need something more
> sophisticated and expensive, the more expensive the
> better.
>
> --
> FA
>
>
> ___
> Sursound mailing list
> Sursound@music.vt.edu
> https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound
>

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Re: [Sursound] Distance perception (really speaker wire discussion!)

[Richard]

Surely a Duracell would be perfect for the job, I mean, it does wonders for 
that rabbit...


  The problem with using a cheap battery for doing this is that
  those electrons which are really not able to move anymore (for
  example those having a broken leg, the result of smashing into 
  another one going in the opposite direction) are not flushed
  out, but merely reduced to debris that will impede the flow
  of the new electrons. 

  To really clean up your cable you need something more
  sophisticated and expensive, the more expensive the
  better.

  -- 
  FA


  ___
  Sursound mailing list
  Sursound@music.vt.edu
  https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound


  -
  No virus found in this message.
  Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
  Version: 10.0.1390 / Virus Database: 1518/3790 - Release Date: 07/26/11
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Re: [Sursound] Distance perception (really speaker wire discussion!)

[Fons Adriaensen]

On Wed, Jul 27, 2011 at 05:52:58PM +0530, umashankar mantravadi wrote:
 
> havent you heard of tired electron distortion ? (TID). the electrons in 
> speaker wire get tired moving back and forth and not going anywhere. the 
> solution is to disconnect the speaker every few hours connect a battery one 
> side and short the other, so all the old electrons can be flushed out (i 
> think i read this in the wireless world) umashankar

The problem with using a cheap battery for doing this is that
those electrons which are really not able to move anymore (for
example those having a broken leg, the result of smashing into 
another one going in the opposite direction) are not flushed
out, but merely reduced to debris that will impede the flow
of the new electrons. 

To really clean up your cable you need something more
sophisticated and expensive, the more expensive the
better.

-- 
FA


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Re: [Sursound] Distance perception (really speaker wire discussion!)

[umashankar mantravadi]

but of course ! umashankar

i have published my poems. read (or buy) at http://stores.lulu.com/umashankar
 > From: zoanne...@yahoo.co.uk
> To: sursound@music.vt.edu
> Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2011 13:26:47 +0100
> Subject: Re: [Sursound] Distance perception (really speaker wire discussion!)
> 
> Oh dear.  LOL
> 
> April edition was it?   LOL
> 
> 
>   havent you heard of tired electron distortion ? (TID). the electrons in 
> speaker wire get tired moving back and forth and not going anywhere. the 
> solution is to disconnect the speaker every few hours connect a battery one 
> side and short the other, so all the old electrons can be flushed out (i 
> think i read this in the wireless world) umashankar
> 
>   i have published my poems. read (or buy) at 
> http://stores.lulu.com/umashankar
>> From: neil.water...@asti-usa.com
>   > Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2011 08:20:02 -0400
>   > To: sursound@music.vt.edu
>   > Subject: Re: [Sursound] Distance perception (really speaker wire 
> discussion!)
>   > 
>   > I wrote the following as a guide for internal use at my work-place a few 
> years back:
>   > 
>   > One "don't" that I hold close is this: Don't be mislead by the many 
> "snake oil and, smoke and mirrors" cable vendors that seem to imbue speaker 
> cables with magical (and astronomically expensive) properties. No matter what 
> Monster Cable, Audioquest, or Cardas claim (or any other esoteric speaker 
> wire manufacturer for that matter), there has never been any proof in any 
> unbiased listen test that there is any benefit from using these "snake oil, 
> and smoke and mirrors" inventions. [I still stand absolutely by this 
> statement... if you are one of the sad souls that believe they can hear a 
> difference, then you deserve to waste ALL your money on magical items - I 
> have some acoustic candles for sale > they cost $1000 each and you must use 
> one per speaker in your listening room the benefits are "when lit, you 
> can find each speaker when you turn the lights off").
>   > 
>   > The most amusing claim is that some speaker wires are directional... yes, 
> some manufacturers have decided that their cables must be installed in a 
> particular orientation (usually indicated by an arrow printed on the outer 
> jacket of the cable indicating the direction from the amp to the speaker that 
> the wire is "designed" to be used. All sorts of claims are made trying to 
> justify this. However speakers are inherently AC (Alternating Current) 
> devices, and hence the electrons in a speaker wire spend just as much time 
> traveling in one direction, as they do the other, so there is no fathomable 
> reasoning that explains just how a speaker cable can possibly be directional, 
> well excepting possibly being able to charge 10 times more to cover the cost 
> of printing the arrows...  In fact if you consider this claim further, the 
> more you realize the "wacko" aspect to this - if the cable truly did work 
> better in one direction versus the other, then the resultant sound cannot 
> possibly b
 e 
>  an
>yt
>   >  hing other than distorted when the electrons are flowing in the reverse 
> direction!
>   > 
>   > Another odd claim heard for some of the astoundingly expensive speaker 
> connects on the market* is that 'normal' speaker cables exhibit some 
> resonance in the audio band, due to their claimed transmission line 
> properties (since it is common to model a cable as an RLC network). While the 
> RLC model is not invalid, the (usually unsubstantiated) claim that the 
> resonance occurs in the audio band (most often mentioned is 1.5kHz), is very 
> easily proven through basic electronic math to be hopelessly incorrect, and 
> even for a long 50 foot 10AWG cable of quite humble specification, the 
> resonant frequency calculates out to be 2.02MHz (some 2 magnitudes beyond 
> human hearing)! In reality cables  DO NOT  resonate at all! The model 
> represented here is single RLC lumped circuit for simplicity and is only 
> accurate at audio frequencies for circuit analysis. A speaker cable is 
> actually a distributed element and should be represented as infinite number 
> of lumped RLC models. As an infinite nu
 mb
>  er
> o
>   >  f lumped RLC circuits are modeled becoming its true distributed form 
> factor, we see the resonance frequency go to infinity. 
>   > 
>   > In order to shorten this discussion the most basic don't is, don't buy 
> any cable that claims anything other than the simple design goal of 
> connecting an amplifier to a speaker.
>   > 
>   > So what does matter

Re: [Sursound] Distance perception (really speaker wire discussion!)

[Richard]

Oh dear.  LOL

April edition was it?   LOL


  havent you heard of tired electron distortion ? (TID). the electrons in 
speaker wire get tired moving back and forth and not going anywhere. the 
solution is to disconnect the speaker every few hours connect a battery one 
side and short the other, so all the old electrons can be flushed out (i think 
i read this in the wireless world) umashankar

  i have published my poems. read (or buy) at http://stores.lulu.com/umashankar
   > From: neil.water...@asti-usa.com
  > Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2011 08:20:02 -0400
  > To: sursound@music.vt.edu
  > Subject: Re: [Sursound] Distance perception (really speaker wire 
discussion!)
  > 
  > I wrote the following as a guide for internal use at my work-place a few 
years back:
  > 
  > One "don't" that I hold close is this: Don't be mislead by the many "snake 
oil and, smoke and mirrors" cable vendors that seem to imbue speaker cables 
with magical (and astronomically expensive) properties. No matter what Monster 
Cable, Audioquest, or Cardas claim (or any other esoteric speaker wire 
manufacturer for that matter), there has never been any proof in any unbiased 
listen test that there is any benefit from using these "snake oil, and smoke 
and mirrors" inventions. [I still stand absolutely by this statement... if you 
are one of the sad souls that believe they can hear a difference, then you 
deserve to waste ALL your money on magical items - I have some acoustic candles 
for sale > they cost $1000 each and you must use one per speaker in your 
listening room the benefits are "when lit, you can find each speaker when 
you turn the lights off").
  > 
  > The most amusing claim is that some speaker wires are directional... yes, 
some manufacturers have decided that their cables must be installed in a 
particular orientation (usually indicated by an arrow printed on the outer 
jacket of the cable indicating the direction from the amp to the speaker that 
the wire is "designed" to be used. All sorts of claims are made trying to 
justify this. However speakers are inherently AC (Alternating Current) devices, 
and hence the electrons in a speaker wire spend just as much time traveling in 
one direction, as they do the other, so there is no fathomable reasoning that 
explains just how a speaker cable can possibly be directional, well excepting 
possibly being able to charge 10 times more to cover the cost of printing the 
arrows...  In fact if you consider this claim further, the more you realize the 
"wacko" aspect to this - if the cable truly did work better in one direction 
versus the other, then the resultant sound cannot possibly be 
 an
   yt
  >  hing other than distorted when the electrons are flowing in the reverse 
direction!
  > 
  > Another odd claim heard for some of the astoundingly expensive speaker 
connects on the market* is that 'normal' speaker cables exhibit some resonance 
in the audio band, due to their claimed transmission line properties (since it 
is common to model a cable as an RLC network). While the RLC model is not 
invalid, the (usually unsubstantiated) claim that the resonance occurs in the 
audio band (most often mentioned is 1.5kHz), is very easily proven through 
basic electronic math to be hopelessly incorrect, and even for a long 50 foot 
10AWG cable of quite humble specification, the resonant frequency calculates 
out to be 2.02MHz (some 2 magnitudes beyond human hearing)! In reality cables  
DO NOT  resonate at all! The model represented here is single RLC lumped 
circuit for simplicity and is only accurate at audio frequencies for circuit 
analysis. A speaker cable is actually a distributed element and should be 
represented as infinite number of lumped RLC models. As an infinite numb
 er
o
  >  f lumped RLC circuits are modeled becoming its true distributed form 
factor, we see the resonance frequency go to infinity. 
  > 
  > In order to shorten this discussion the most basic don't is, don't buy any 
cable that claims anything other than the simple design goal of connecting an 
amplifier to a speaker.
  > 
  > So what does matter? 
  > 
  > The bottom line is that the speaker cable DC resistance should by rule 
-of-thumb present no more than  5% of the impedance load presented by the 
speaker, and hence the ONLY real issue of concern is the resistance of the 
selected wire per foot. The speakers I use most often have a rated impedance of 
4 Ohms, hence we do not want to see a DC resistance greater than 0.2 Ohms for 
the cable run. 
  > 
  > In general the distance run per wire gauge recommendations I use are as 
follows:
  > 
  > Up to 40 feet : 14AWG
  > 40-60 feet: 12 AWG
  > 60-100 feet: 10 AWG
  > 
  > - Neil
  > 
  > 
  > 
  > On Jul 27, 2011, at 8:03 AM, umashankar mantra

Re: [Sursound] Distance perception (really speaker wire discussion!)

[umashankar mantravadi]

havent you heard of tired electron distortion ? (TID). the electrons in speaker 
wire get tired moving back and forth and not going anywhere. the solution is to 
disconnect the speaker every few hours connect a battery one side and short the 
other, so all the old electrons can be flushed out (i think i read this in the 
wireless world) umashankar

i have published my poems. read (or buy) at http://stores.lulu.com/umashankar
 > From: neil.water...@asti-usa.com
> Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2011 08:20:02 -0400
> To: sursound@music.vt.edu
> Subject: Re: [Sursound] Distance perception (really speaker wire discussion!)
> 
> I wrote the following as a guide for internal use at my work-place a few 
> years back:
> 
> One "don't" that I hold close is this: Don't be mislead by the many "snake 
> oil and, smoke and mirrors" cable vendors that seem to imbue speaker cables 
> with magical (and astronomically expensive) properties. No matter what 
> Monster Cable, Audioquest, or Cardas claim (or any other esoteric speaker 
> wire manufacturer for that matter), there has never been any proof in any 
> unbiased listen test that there is any benefit from using these "snake oil, 
> and smoke and mirrors" inventions. [I still stand absolutely by this 
> statement... if you are one of the sad souls that believe they can hear a 
> difference, then you deserve to waste ALL your money on magical items - I 
> have some acoustic candles for sale > they cost $1000 each and you must use 
> one per speaker in your listening room the benefits are "when lit, you 
> can find each speaker when you turn the lights off").
> 
> The most amusing claim is that some speaker wires are directional... yes, 
> some manufacturers have decided that their cables must be installed in a 
> particular orientation (usually indicated by an arrow printed on the outer 
> jacket of the cable indicating the direction from the amp to the speaker that 
> the wire is "designed" to be used. All sorts of claims are made trying to 
> justify this. However speakers are inherently AC (Alternating Current) 
> devices, and hence the electrons in a speaker wire spend just as much time 
> traveling in one direction, as they do the other, so there is no fathomable 
> reasoning that explains just how a speaker cable can possibly be directional, 
> well excepting possibly being able to charge 10 times more to cover the cost 
> of printing the arrows...  In fact if you consider this claim further, the 
> more you realize the "wacko" aspect to this - if the cable truly did work 
> better in one direction versus the other, then the resultant sound cannot 
> possibly be an
 yt
>  hing other than distorted when the electrons are flowing in the reverse 
> direction!
> 
> Another odd claim heard for some of the astoundingly expensive speaker 
> connects on the market* is that 'normal' speaker cables exhibit some 
> resonance in the audio band, due to their claimed transmission line 
> properties (since it is common to model a cable as an RLC network). While the 
> RLC model is not invalid, the (usually unsubstantiated) claim that the 
> resonance occurs in the audio band (most often mentioned is 1.5kHz), is very 
> easily proven through basic electronic math to be hopelessly incorrect, and 
> even for a long 50 foot 10AWG cable of quite humble specification, the 
> resonant frequency calculates out to be 2.02MHz (some 2 magnitudes beyond 
> human hearing)! In reality cables  DO NOT  resonate at all! The model 
> represented here is single RLC lumped circuit for simplicity and is only 
> accurate at audio frequencies for circuit analysis. A speaker cable is 
> actually a distributed element and should be represented as infinite number 
> of lumped RLC models. As an infinite number
  o
>  f lumped RLC circuits are modeled becoming its true distributed form factor, 
> we see the resonance frequency go to infinity. 
> 
> In order to shorten this discussion the most basic don't is, don't buy any 
> cable that claims anything other than the simple design goal of connecting an 
> amplifier to a speaker.
> 
> So what does matter? 
> 
> The bottom line is that the speaker cable DC resistance should by rule 
> -of-thumb present no more than  5% of the impedance load presented by the 
> speaker, and hence the ONLY real issue of concern is the resistance of the 
> selected wire per foot. The speakers I use most often have a rated impedance 
> of 4 Ohms, hence we do not want to see a DC resistance greater than 0.2 Ohms 
> for the cable run. 
> 
> In general the distance run per wire gauge recommendations I use are as 
> follows:
> 
> Up to 40 feet : 14AWG
> 40-60 feet: 12 AWG
>

Re: [Sursound] Distance perception (really speaker wire discussion!)

[Neil Waterman]

I wrote the following as a guide for internal use at my work-place a few years 
back:

One "don't" that I hold close is this: Don't be mislead by the many "snake oil 
and, smoke and mirrors" cable vendors that seem to imbue speaker cables with 
magical (and astronomically expensive) properties. No matter what Monster 
Cable, Audioquest, or Cardas claim (or any other esoteric speaker wire 
manufacturer for that matter), there has never been any proof in any unbiased 
listen test that there is any benefit from using these "snake oil, and smoke 
and mirrors" inventions. [I still stand absolutely by this statement... if you 
are one of the sad souls that believe they can hear a difference, then you 
deserve to waste ALL your money on magical items - I have some acoustic candles 
for sale > they cost $1000 each and you must use one per speaker in your 
listening room the benefits are "when lit, you can find each speaker when 
you turn the lights off").

The most amusing claim is that some speaker wires are directional... yes, some 
manufacturers have decided that their cables must be installed in a particular 
orientation (usually indicated by an arrow printed on the outer jacket of the 
cable indicating the direction from the amp to the speaker that the wire is 
"designed" to be used. All sorts of claims are made trying to justify this. 
However speakers are inherently AC (Alternating Current) devices, and hence the 
electrons in a speaker wire spend just as much time traveling in one direction, 
as they do the other, so there is no fathomable reasoning that explains just 
how a speaker cable can possibly be directional, well excepting possibly being 
able to charge 10 times more to cover the cost of printing the arrows...  In 
fact if you consider this claim further, the more you realize the "wacko" 
aspect to this - if the cable truly did work better in one direction versus the 
other, then the resultant sound cannot possibly be anyt
 hing other than distorted when the electrons are flowing in the reverse 
direction!

Another odd claim heard for some of the astoundingly expensive speaker connects 
on the market* is that 'normal' speaker cables exhibit some resonance in the 
audio band, due to their claimed transmission line properties (since it is 
common to model a cable as an RLC network). While the RLC model is not invalid, 
the (usually unsubstantiated) claim that the resonance occurs in the audio band 
(most often mentioned is 1.5kHz), is very easily proven through basic 
electronic math to be hopelessly incorrect, and even for a long 50 foot 10AWG 
cable of quite humble specification, the resonant frequency calculates out to 
be 2.02MHz (some 2 magnitudes beyond human hearing)! In reality cables  DO NOT  
resonate at all! The model represented here is single RLC lumped circuit for 
simplicity and is only accurate at audio frequencies for circuit analysis. A 
speaker cable is actually a distributed element and should be represented as 
infinite number of lumped RLC models. As an infinite number o
 f lumped RLC circuits are modeled becoming its true distributed form factor, 
we see the resonance frequency go to infinity. 

In order to shorten this discussion the most basic don't is, don't buy any 
cable that claims anything other than the simple design goal of connecting an 
amplifier to a speaker.

So what does matter? 

The bottom line is that the speaker cable DC resistance should by rule 
-of-thumb present no more than  5% of the impedance load presented by the 
speaker, and hence the ONLY real issue of concern is the resistance of the 
selected wire per foot. The speakers I use most often have a rated impedance of 
4 Ohms, hence we do not want to see a DC resistance greater than 0.2 Ohms for 
the cable run. 

In general the distance run per wire gauge recommendations I use are as follows:

Up to 40 feet : 14AWG
40-60 feet: 12 AWG
60-100 feet: 10 AWG

- Neil



On Jul 27, 2011, at 8:03 AM, umashankar mantravadi wrote:

> 
> years ago (no decades ago) i found what a huge difference it made if the 
> wires were reasonably thick, and cut to be exactly same length. cutting them 
> to same length is problematic with eight loudspeakers (unless the amp sits in 
> the sweet spot) but my next rig, in my own house, in bangalore next year, 
> will have same length wires to all the speakers. umashankar
> 
> i have published my poems. read (or buy) at http://stores.lulu.com/umashankar
>> Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2011 21:57:49 -0700
>> From: d...@dgvo.net
>> To: sursound@music.vt.edu
>> Subject: Re: [Sursound] Distance perception
>> 
>> On 26/07/11 3:41 p.m., Sampo Syreeni wrote:
>>> On 2011-07-26, Fons Adriaensen wrote:
 I certainly don't want you to waste your money on fancy speaker cables.
>>> Never thought otherwise. That's obviously never been what we do here. ;)
 But resistance does matter, so a good cross section such as 2.5 mm^2 puts 
 you on the
 safe side.
>>> 
>>> What I was trying to a