Re: [Sursound] Sound Based Composition (surround)

[Augustine Leudar]

I do all the time. I think there's quite a few papers on the subject as
well.

On 16 August 2017 at 10:46, 霖の <951343...@qq.com> wrote:

> Dear all:
> Have u ever thought about using psychoacoustics and cognition psychology
> principles to compose electronic music especially on sound based music ?
> For instance, when making surround sound, we need to consider how people
> listen the sound in space. I'm thinking this might be a potential phd
> proposal topic.
>
>
> Looking forward your reply,
> Thanks,
> Yilin
>
> 发自我的iPad
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> edit account or options, view archives and so on.
>



-- 
Dr. Augustine Leudar
Artistic Director Magik Door LTD
Company Number : NI635217
Registered 63 Ballycoan rd,
Belfast BT88LL
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Re: [Sursound] Sound Based Composition (surround)

[Peter Lennox]

Yes, I think many people think about this (as a quick bit of Googling will 
reveal).
As a PhD topic - well, it's a subject area, but not really focussed enough to 
be a topic (and hence, not developed enough to form the basis of a proposal)
One way forward would be to find psychoacousticians, auditory scientists and 
cognitive scientists who are also musicians; there are plenty. Names that 
spring to mind might be Stephen McAdams, Daniel Levitin, Albert Bregman, Ron 
Shepherd, Diana Deutsch and many more. Then take a look for journals that 
look at cognitive science and music - gradually, you'll start to see names 
cropping up repeatedly. Track down their publications pages, and dive in.
In respect of spatial listening, again, many people have studied this - and of 
course, spatial listening for music might be quite different from listening to 
real environments (the former are rarely as potentially hazardous as the 
latter!). So, AES journals, JASA, ICAD would be good places to start. Look also 
for those 'out there' electroacoustic composers who are interested in 
psychoacoustics, philosophy of perception, neuroscience.

All of the above could form the basis of the first 50% of the PhD, but actually 
are prerequisites for formulating a decent proposal.

p.s. - I wasn't sure what "sound based music" might be?

Dr. Peter Lennox SFHEA
Senior Lecturer in Perception
College of Arts, Humanities and Education
School of Arts

e: p.len...@derby.ac.uk
t: 01332 593155

https://derby.academia.edu/peterlennox
https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Peter_Lennox

University of Derby,
Kedleston Road,
Derby,
DE22 1GB, UK

-Original Message-
From: Sursound [mailto:sursound-boun...@music.vt.edu] On Behalf Of Augustine 
Leudar
Sent: 16 August 2017 11:00
To: Surround Sound discussion group 
Subject: Re: [Sursound] Sound Based Composition (surround)

I do all the time. I think there's quite a few papers on the subject as well.

On 16 August 2017 at 10:46, 霖の <951343...@qq.com> wrote:

> Dear all:
> Have u ever thought about using psychoacoustics and cognition
> psychology principles to compose electronic music especially on sound based 
> music ?
> For instance, when making surround sound, we need to consider how
> people listen the sound in space. I'm thinking this might be a
> potential phd proposal topic.
>
>
> Looking forward your reply,
> Thanks,
> Yilin
>
> 发自我的iPad
> -- next part -- An HTML attachment was
> scrubbed...
> URL: <https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/private/sursound/
> attachments/20170816/cbeab666/attachment.html>
> ___
> Sursound mailing list
> Sursound@music.vt.edu
> https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe
> here, edit account or options, view archives and so on.
>



--
Dr. Augustine Leudar
Artistic Director Magik Door LTD
Company Number : NI635217
Registered 63 Ballycoan rd,
Belfast BT88LL
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Re: [Sursound] Sound Based Composition(surround)

[Peter Lennox]

You probably have a supervisor, so I wouldn't want to interfere.
But it seems to me that your main aim is too broad, too vague. You seem to be 
saying something like "the perception of music partly relies on processes 
(neural, cognitive and psychological) that exist for other than musical reasons 
- so how can this principle be applied to enrich music and sound art?"
 - but of course, composers have always done this. Take the principle of 
"intuitive physics" (1993: 'Intuitive Physics', in Eilan, McCarthy and Brewer, 
(eds.), Problems in the Philosophy and Psychology of Spatial Representation; 
99-112) - then compare "flight of the bumble bee" with Prokoviev's "Dance of 
the Knights" (a track on Romeo and Juliet) - you can hear that they rely on 
extra-musical associations about size (mass) and therefore momentum, and the 
sorts of movement (acceleration, change of direction) that might be expected 
for beings of differing masses. (Also have a listen to Tomita's electronic 
renditions of Debussey)


On the notion of sound sculpture, there are many artists interested in this - 
for example, The Morning Line (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gipLCJr94Sg )

So, you have a very interesting topic area, and one in which much is not known 
(an exciting area for research, then). But this stage, of formulating a 
coherent proposal, is very hard work. Simplicity is the key - trying to be 
really clear (to yourself) what it is you want to know. That's a problem that 
all academics wrestle with, all their lives.
Good luck!

Dr. Peter Lennox SFHEA
Senior Lecturer in Perception
College of Arts, Humanities and Education
School of Arts

e: p.len...@derby.ac.uk
t: 01332 593155

https://derby.academia.edu/peterlennox
https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Peter_Lennox

University of Derby,
Kedleston Road,
Derby,
DE22 1GB, UK


-Original Message-
From: Sursound [mailto:sursound-boun...@music.vt.edu] On Behalf Of ??
Sent: 16 August 2017 12:33
To: sursound 
Subject: [Sursound] Sound Based Composition(surround)

Thanks for reply. It is really helpful.
The term I used , according to Landy's writing : typically designated the art 
form in which the sound is the basic unit.
I'm thinking about it and developed main question and sub questions,here is a 
brief description :


1 The study purpose and sub-questions
1.1 Main Purpose
For the perception mechanism of human being, every part of the outer world is 
affecting the final cognition. Thus, as sound-based music, the sources may 
naturally have extra-musical information. How to use that information 
appropriately to create artwork so that it could arouse people's association 
and extra-musical experiences? And, How to combine it with other art forms and 
effectively creates interesting perception experiences?

1.2  Perception
For receiving and processing, sensory system will be used and worked together 
all the time. For artwork creation, including sound-based music composition, 
would it possible to break the typical perception habit or used it to create 
artwork according to perception principles?
1.3Cognition
In this part, the research question focus on cognition process (understanding 
through thought, experience, and existing knowledge, etc.).
In the light of above theory, if sound-based music or audiovisual artwork could 
follow the path of cognition process, will it creates fantastic artwork that 
brings abundant information even dramatic experiences? For example, using 
symbolic melody, lyrics or sound with special meaning, and composed them 
appropriately, it would be act like "access tools" (Leigh Landy, 2007: 27) and 
enhance the experiences to audiences and assist them understand the work more 
easily. Thus, people will focus on experience the feelings or interact with 
artworks rather than struggle with questions like what is going on here.
1.4 Development
To develop the research ideas basis on psychoacoustics and cognitive psychology 
mentioned above, when combining the sound-based artwork with other forms of 
art, will innovations happen by this combination?
1.5  Sound sculpture
As mention above, sound sculpture basis on sound-based music. Essentially, 
music is trying to transmit experiences to audiences, so how about creating 
sound sculpture? It is like the natural world presented to us: when we come 
into a place, we will hear and see the surroundings and then understand what 
has happened here, so as "sound sculpture" mentioned here.
As I'm new to write proposal, what is the essential elements to form a research 
object and how specific should it be? I'm going to manipulate the principles 
and compose serious of artworks . Then extract the result to form a final 
dissertation.


Thank you very much,
Yilin
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Re: [Sursound] Sound Based Composition(surround)

[Augustine Leudar]

As you probably know visual and other cognitive cues often override audio
cues (see wallachs amazing cylinder experiment from 1940). I like to play
with peoples minds in my installations and create illusions with sound -
but these can be massively aided by the careful manipulation of cognitive
and visual cues - for me for example the choice of location and how it
looks is just as much a compositional decision as the choice of sounds,
every sensory experience people have from the sight of a speaker, to the
smell of the environment will have an associated meaning for listeners and
effect how they hear things, and how believable the world you are trying to
transport them to is..
Cognitive cues are massively influential on how we hear and experience the
world - from branding to deciding one person has something more important
to say because you know their name, etc etc - you can completely override
audio cues - or massively enhance them if you are clever in their use.
However I would suggest practice led research for this kind of project - I
have heard so many things that sound very good on paper but dont actually
work - to really add to the body of human knowledge I would say do it the
other way round here - find out what works then write about it.
There are loads of really interesting avenues of research in this topic -
from intepoliation in HRTF data sets to various applications in VR.
Although not sound based there is research for example in VR - you put a
headset on and walk in a room - you think you are walking in a straight
line but actually you are walking in a curve - the research is determining
how far visual cues can foll haptic ones, how much of a curve can you get
away with There are many audio equivelants to this "curve". .I am
also involved in sound sculpture but not perhaps in the way you mean - I
make actual sculptures with sonics bult into them - I like technology to be
hidden for the aforementioned cognitive reasons- I also do a lot of
installations in natural environments that integrate psychoacoustic and
cognitive research (such as the cocktail party effect and precedence etc) .
I can send you some papers I wrote on using these cues in sound
installation and theatre if you PM me. I also would be wary of terms like
"sound based music" it sounds like pure academese - I understand the
importance of academic writing style you have the potential to write an
interesting research project and create a great portfolio which actually is
clever and doesnt need to obscure its content with unnecessary esoteric
language . My advice would be to follow your passion and not let yourself
get led into something you're not really that interested in or that makes
your supervisor feel safer - to finish you will need to be really engaged.

On 16 August 2017 at 13:45, Peter Lennox  wrote:

> You probably have a supervisor, so I wouldn't want to interfere.
> But it seems to me that your main aim is too broad, too vague. You seem to
> be saying something like "the perception of music partly relies on
> processes (neural, cognitive and psychological) that exist for other than
> musical reasons - so how can this principle be applied to enrich music and
> sound art?"
>  - but of course, composers have always done this. Take the principle of
> "intuitive physics" (1993: 'Intuitive Physics', in Eilan, McCarthy and
> Brewer, (eds.), Problems in the Philosophy and Psychology of Spatial
> Representation; 99-112) - then compare "flight of the bumble bee" with
> Prokoviev's "Dance of the Knights" (a track on Romeo and Juliet) - you can
> hear that they rely on extra-musical associations about size (mass) and
> therefore momentum, and the sorts of movement (acceleration, change of
> direction) that might be expected for beings of differing masses. (Also
> have a listen to Tomita's electronic renditions of Debussey)
>
>
> On the notion of sound sculpture, there are many artists interested in
> this - for example, The Morning Line (https://www.youtube.com/
> watch?v=gipLCJr94Sg )
>
> So, you have a very interesting topic area, and one in which much is not
> known (an exciting area for research, then). But this stage, of formulating
> a coherent proposal, is very hard work. Simplicity is the key - trying to
> be really clear (to yourself) what it is you want to know. That's a problem
> that all academics wrestle with, all their lives.
> Good luck!
>
> Dr. Peter Lennox SFHEA
> Senior Lecturer in Perception
> College of Arts, Humanities and Education
> School of Arts
>
> e: p.len...@derby.ac.uk
> t: 01332 593155
>
> https://derby.academia.edu/peterlennox
> https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Peter_Lennox
>
> University of Derby,
> Kedleston Road,
> Derby,
> DE22 1GB, UK
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Sursound [mailto:sursound-boun...@music.vt.edu] On Behalf Of ??
> Sent: 16 August 2017 12:33
> To: sursound 
> Subject: [Sursound] Sound Based Composition(surround)
>
> Thanks for reply. It is really helpful.
> The 

Re: [Sursound] Sound Based Composition(surround)

[Peter Lennox]

Wot he said...

Dr. Peter Lennox SFHEA
Senior Lecturer in Perception
College of Arts, Humanities and Education
School of Arts

e: p.len...@derby.ac.uk
t: 01332 593155

https://derby.academia.edu/peterlennox
https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Peter_Lennox

University of Derby,
Kedleston Road,
Derby,
DE22 1GB, UK


-Original Message-
From: Sursound [mailto:sursound-boun...@music.vt.edu] On Behalf Of Augustine 
Leudar
Sent: 16 August 2017 15:25
To: Surround Sound discussion group 
Subject: Re: [Sursound] Sound Based Composition(surround)

As you probably know visual and other cognitive cues often override audio cues 
(see wallachs amazing cylinder experiment from 1940). I like to play with 
peoples minds in my installations and create illusions with sound - but these 
can be massively aided by the careful manipulation of cognitive and visual cues 
- for me for example the choice of location and how it looks is just as much a 
compositional decision as the choice of sounds, every sensory experience people 
have from the sight of a speaker, to the smell of the environment will have an 
associated meaning for listeners and effect how they hear things, and how 
believable the world you are trying to transport them to is..
Cognitive cues are massively influential on how we hear and experience the 
world - from branding to deciding one person has something more important to 
say because you know their name, etc etc - you can completely override audio 
cues - or massively enhance them if you are clever in their use.
However I would suggest practice led research for this kind of project - I have 
heard so many things that sound very good on paper but dont actually work - to 
really add to the body of human knowledge I would say do it the other way round 
here - find out what works then write about it.
There are loads of really interesting avenues of research in this topic - from 
intepoliation in HRTF data sets to various applications in VR.
Although not sound based there is research for example in VR - you put a 
headset on and walk in a room - you think you are walking in a straight line 
but actually you are walking in a curve - the research is determining how far 
visual cues can foll haptic ones, how much of a curve can you get away with 
There are many audio equivelants to this "curve". .I am also involved in 
sound sculpture but not perhaps in the way you mean - I make actual sculptures 
with sonics bult into them - I like technology to be hidden for the 
aforementioned cognitive reasons- I also do a lot of installations in natural 
environments that integrate psychoacoustic and cognitive research (such as the 
cocktail party effect and precedence etc) .
I can send you some papers I wrote on using these cues in sound installation 
and theatre if you PM me. I also would be wary of terms like "sound based 
music" it sounds like pure academese - I understand the importance of academic 
writing style you have the potential to write an interesting research project 
and create a great portfolio which actually is clever and doesnt need to 
obscure its content with unnecessary esoteric language . My advice would be to 
follow your passion and not let yourself get led into something you're not 
really that interested in or that makes your supervisor feel safer - to finish 
you will need to be really engaged.

On 16 August 2017 at 13:45, Peter Lennox  wrote:

> You probably have a supervisor, so I wouldn't want to interfere.
> But it seems to me that your main aim is too broad, too vague. You
> seem to be saying something like "the perception of music partly
> relies on processes (neural, cognitive and psychological) that exist
> for other than musical reasons - so how can this principle be applied
> to enrich music and sound art?"
>  - but of course, composers have always done this. Take the principle
> of "intuitive physics" (1993: 'Intuitive Physics', in Eilan, McCarthy
> and Brewer, (eds.), Problems in the Philosophy and Psychology of
> Spatial Representation; 99-112) - then compare "flight of the bumble
> bee" with Prokoviev's "Dance of the Knights" (a track on Romeo and
> Juliet) - you can hear that they rely on extra-musical associations
> about size (mass) and therefore momentum, and the sorts of movement
> (acceleration, change of
> direction) that might be expected for beings of differing masses.
> (Also have a listen to Tomita's electronic renditions of Debussey)
>
>
> On the notion of sound sculpture, there are many artists interested in
> this - for example, The Morning Line (https://www.youtube.com/
> watch?v=gipLCJr94Sg )
>
> So, you have a very interesting topic area, and one in which much is
> not known (an exciting area for research, then). But this stage, of
> formulating a coherent proposal, is very hard work. Simpl

Re: [Sursound] Sound Based Composition(surround)

[Dave Malham]

I, too, agree with Augustine. A point though that I would make, on the side
so to speak, is, do not assume that visual cues always override audio ones.
It is quite common for visual arts people to assume that the visual
overrules everything else but, although not as common, audio perceptions
can override visual ones at times. Anyway, good luck with your phd.

Dave


On 16 August 2017 at 15:29, Peter Lennox  wrote:

> Wot he said...
>
> Dr. Peter Lennox SFHEA
> Senior Lecturer in Perception
> College of Arts, Humanities and Education
> School of Arts
>
> e: p.len...@derby.ac.uk
> t: 01332 593155
>
> https://derby.academia.edu/peterlennox
> https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Peter_Lennox
>
> University of Derby,
> Kedleston Road,
> Derby,
> DE22 1GB, UK
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Sursound [mailto:sursound-boun...@music.vt.edu] On Behalf Of
> Augustine Leudar
> Sent: 16 August 2017 15:25
> To: Surround Sound discussion group 
> Subject: Re: [Sursound] Sound Based Composition(surround)
>
> As you probably know visual and other cognitive cues often override audio
> cues (see wallachs amazing cylinder experiment from 1940). I like to play
> with peoples minds in my installations and create illusions with sound -
> but these can be massively aided by the careful manipulation of cognitive
> and visual cues - for me for example the choice of location and how it
> looks is just as much a compositional decision as the choice of sounds,
> every sensory experience people have from the sight of a speaker, to the
> smell of the environment will have an associated meaning for listeners and
> effect how they hear things, and how believable the world you are trying to
> transport them to is..
> Cognitive cues are massively influential on how we hear and experience the
> world - from branding to deciding one person has something more important
> to say because you know their name, etc etc - you can completely override
> audio cues - or massively enhance them if you are clever in their use.
> However I would suggest practice led research for this kind of project - I
> have heard so many things that sound very good on paper but dont actually
> work - to really add to the body of human knowledge I would say do it the
> other way round here - find out what works then write about it.
> There are loads of really interesting avenues of research in this topic -
> from intepoliation in HRTF data sets to various applications in VR.
> Although not sound based there is research for example in VR - you put a
> headset on and walk in a room - you think you are walking in a straight
> line but actually you are walking in a curve - the research is determining
> how far visual cues can foll haptic ones, how much of a curve can you get
> away with There are many audio equivelants to this "curve". .I am
> also involved in sound sculpture but not perhaps in the way you mean - I
> make actual sculptures with sonics bult into them - I like technology to be
> hidden for the aforementioned cognitive reasons- I also do a lot of
> installations in natural environments that integrate psychoacoustic and
> cognitive research (such as the cocktail party effect and precedence etc) .
> I can send you some papers I wrote on using these cues in sound
> installation and theatre if you PM me. I also would be wary of terms like
> "sound based music" it sounds like pure academese - I understand the
> importance of academic writing style you have the potential to write an
> interesting research project and create a great portfolio which actually is
> clever and doesnt need to obscure its content with unnecessary esoteric
> language . My advice would be to follow your passion and not let yourself
> get led into something you're not really that interested in or that makes
> your supervisor feel safer - to finish you will need to be really engaged.
>
> On 16 August 2017 at 13:45, Peter Lennox  wrote:
>
> > You probably have a supervisor, so I wouldn't want to interfere.
> > But it seems to me that your main aim is too broad, too vague. You
> > seem to be saying something like "the perception of music partly
> > relies on processes (neural, cognitive and psychological) that exist
> > for other than musical reasons - so how can this principle be applied
> > to enrich music and sound art?"
> >  - but of course, composers have always done this. Take the principle
> > of "intuitive physics" (1993: 'Intuitive Physics', in Eilan, McCarthy
> > and Brewer, (eds.), Problems in the Philosophy and Psychology of
> > Spatial Representation; 99-112) - then compare "flight of the bumble
> > bee" with Prokoviev's 

Re: [Sursound] Sound Based Composition(surround)

[Fons Adriaensen]

On Wed, Aug 16, 2017 at 08:06:59PM +0100, Dave Malham wrote:

> I, too, agree with Augustine. A point though that I would make, on the side
> so to speak, is, do not assume that visual cues always override audio ones.

Maybe not always, but visual cues seem to be quite dominant compared
to audio. 

For the last few monts I've been working on binaural rendering of
HOA signals, with head motion tracking. One critical aspect of this
is externalisation of sounds in the frontal section. Seeing some 
speakers there seems to help, even if you know very well that the
sound you hear is not coming from those speakers. This seems to
affect both expert and less-than-expert listeners equally.

Ciao,

-- 
FA

A world of exhaustive, reliable metadata would be an utopia.
It's also a pipe-dream, founded on self-delusion, nerd hubris
and hysterically inflated market opportunities. (Cory Doctorow)

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Re: [Sursound] Sound Based Composition(surround)

[Augustine Leudar]

This is true too Dave - I know of one audio cue in particular (to do with a
football bouncing off a wall) that can alter the way you see the way the
ball moves - Ill have to dig it out. It really sucks being a sound artist
sometimes ! oh so you're an audio guy What's a sound artist ? What like
a sound engineer ? or a sound designer ? oooh a jumped up button pusher
with delusions of grandeur

On 16 August 2017 at 20:06, Dave Malham  wrote:

> I, too, agree with Augustine. A point though that I would make, on the side
> so to speak, is, do not assume that visual cues always override audio ones.
> It is quite common for visual arts people to assume that the visual
> overrules everything else but, although not as common, audio perceptions
> can override visual ones at times. Anyway, good luck with your phd.
>
> Dave
>
>
> On 16 August 2017 at 15:29, Peter Lennox  wrote:
>
> > Wot he said...
> >
> > Dr. Peter Lennox SFHEA
> > Senior Lecturer in Perception
> > College of Arts, Humanities and Education
> > School of Arts
> >
> > e: p.len...@derby.ac.uk
> > t: 01332 593155
> >
> > https://derby.academia.edu/peterlennox
> > https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Peter_Lennox
> >
> > University of Derby,
> > Kedleston Road,
> > Derby,
> > DE22 1GB, UK
> >
> >
> > -Original Message-
> > From: Sursound [mailto:sursound-boun...@music.vt.edu] On Behalf Of
> > Augustine Leudar
> > Sent: 16 August 2017 15:25
> > To: Surround Sound discussion group 
> > Subject: Re: [Sursound] Sound Based Composition(surround)
> >
> > As you probably know visual and other cognitive cues often override audio
> > cues (see wallachs amazing cylinder experiment from 1940). I like to play
> > with peoples minds in my installations and create illusions with sound -
> > but these can be massively aided by the careful manipulation of cognitive
> > and visual cues - for me for example the choice of location and how it
> > looks is just as much a compositional decision as the choice of sounds,
> > every sensory experience people have from the sight of a speaker, to the
> > smell of the environment will have an associated meaning for listeners
> and
> > effect how they hear things, and how believable the world you are trying
> to
> > transport them to is..
> > Cognitive cues are massively influential on how we hear and experience
> the
> > world - from branding to deciding one person has something more important
> > to say because you know their name, etc etc - you can completely override
> > audio cues - or massively enhance them if you are clever in their use.
> > However I would suggest practice led research for this kind of project -
> I
> > have heard so many things that sound very good on paper but dont actually
> > work - to really add to the body of human knowledge I would say do it the
> > other way round here - find out what works then write about it.
> > There are loads of really interesting avenues of research in this topic -
> > from intepoliation in HRTF data sets to various applications in VR.
> > Although not sound based there is research for example in VR - you put a
> > headset on and walk in a room - you think you are walking in a straight
> > line but actually you are walking in a curve - the research is
> determining
> > how far visual cues can foll haptic ones, how much of a curve can you get
> > away with There are many audio equivelants to this "curve". .I am
> > also involved in sound sculpture but not perhaps in the way you mean - I
> > make actual sculptures with sonics bult into them - I like technology to
> be
> > hidden for the aforementioned cognitive reasons- I also do a lot of
> > installations in natural environments that integrate psychoacoustic and
> > cognitive research (such as the cocktail party effect and precedence
> etc) .
> > I can send you some papers I wrote on using these cues in sound
> > installation and theatre if you PM me. I also would be wary of terms like
> > "sound based music" it sounds like pure academese - I understand the
> > importance of academic writing style you have the potential to write an
> > interesting research project and create a great portfolio which actually
> is
> > clever and doesnt need to obscure its content with unnecessary esoteric
> > language . My advice would be to follow your passion and not let yourself
> > get led into something you're not really that interested in or that makes
> > your supervisor feel safer - to finish you will need to be really
> enga

Re: [Sursound] Sound Based Composition(surround)

[Peter Lennox]

The motion bounce illusion, where application of an audible transient alters 
the visual conclusion, from two circles passing through each other, to a 
perception of them 'bouncing' off each other, is a good example of audio 
altering visual perception.

it would be simplistic to say that one sense 'dominates' the other, since the 
real point lies in the comparative robustness of cues -the sense with the best 
signal-to-noise ratio is likely to dominate in particular instances.

Dr. Peter Lennox SFHEA

Senior Lecturer in Perception

College of Arts, Humanities and Education

School of Arts



e: p.len...@derby.ac.uk<mailto:p.len...@derby.ac.uk>

t: 01332 593155



https://derby.academia.edu/peterlennox

https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Peter_Lennox



University of Derby,
Kedleston Road,
Derby,
DE22 1GB, UK


From: Sursound  on behalf of Augustine Leudar 

Sent: 16 August 2017 22:14:46
To: Surround Sound discussion group
Subject: Re: [Sursound] Sound Based Composition(surround)

This is true too Dave - I know of one audio cue in particular (to do with a
football bouncing off a wall) that can alter the way you see the way the
ball moves - Ill have to dig it out. It really sucks being a sound artist
sometimes ! oh so you're an audio guy What's a sound artist ? What like
a sound engineer ? or a sound designer ? oooh a jumped up button pusher
with delusions of grandeur

On 16 August 2017 at 20:06, Dave Malham  wrote:

> I, too, agree with Augustine. A point though that I would make, on the side
> so to speak, is, do not assume that visual cues always override audio ones.
> It is quite common for visual arts people to assume that the visual
> overrules everything else but, although not as common, audio perceptions
> can override visual ones at times. Anyway, good luck with your phd.
>
> Dave
>
>
> On 16 August 2017 at 15:29, Peter Lennox  wrote:
>
> > Wot he said...
> >
> > Dr. Peter Lennox SFHEA
> > Senior Lecturer in Perception
> > College of Arts, Humanities and Education
> > School of Arts
> >
> > e: p.len...@derby.ac.uk
> > t: 01332 593155
> >
> > https://derby.academia.edu/peterlennox
> > https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Peter_Lennox
> >
> > University of Derby,
> > Kedleston Road,
> > Derby,
> > DE22 1GB, UK
> >
> >
> > -Original Message-
> > From: Sursound [mailto:sursound-boun...@music.vt.edu] On Behalf Of
> > Augustine Leudar
> > Sent: 16 August 2017 15:25
> > To: Surround Sound discussion group 
> > Subject: Re: [Sursound] Sound Based Composition(surround)
> >
> > As you probably know visual and other cognitive cues often override audio
> > cues (see wallachs amazing cylinder experiment from 1940). I like to play
> > with peoples minds in my installations and create illusions with sound -
> > but these can be massively aided by the careful manipulation of cognitive
> > and visual cues - for me for example the choice of location and how it
> > looks is just as much a compositional decision as the choice of sounds,
> > every sensory experience people have from the sight of a speaker, to the
> > smell of the environment will have an associated meaning for listeners
> and
> > effect how they hear things, and how believable the world you are trying
> to
> > transport them to is..
> > Cognitive cues are massively influential on how we hear and experience
> the
> > world - from branding to deciding one person has something more important
> > to say because you know their name, etc etc - you can completely override
> > audio cues - or massively enhance them if you are clever in their use.
> > However I would suggest practice led research for this kind of project -
> I
> > have heard so many things that sound very good on paper but dont actually
> > work - to really add to the body of human knowledge I would say do it the
> > other way round here - find out what works then write about it.
> > There are loads of really interesting avenues of research in this topic -
> > from intepoliation in HRTF data sets to various applications in VR.
> > Although not sound based there is research for example in VR - you put a
> > headset on and walk in a room - you think you are walking in a straight
> > line but actually you are walking in a curve - the research is
> determining
> > how far visual cues can foll haptic ones, how much of a curve can you get
> > away with There are many audio equivelants to this "curve". .I am
> > also involved in sound sculpture but not perhaps in the way you mean - I
> > make actual sculptures with sonics b

Re: [Sursound] Sound Based Composition(surround)

[Augustine Leudar]

My favorite experiment/paper on this subject, which although old, is still
relevant, is "The role of head movements and vestibular and visual cues in
sound localization " Wallach 1940 - I can't seem to find it anywhere though
- if anyone has it and can post a PDF of it it would be very much
appreciated.

On 17 August 2017 at 09:42, Peter Lennox  wrote:

> The motion bounce illusion, where application of an audible transient
> alters the visual conclusion, from two circles passing through each other,
> to a perception of them 'bouncing' off each other, is a good example of
> audio altering visual perception.
>
> it would be simplistic to say that one sense 'dominates' the other, since
> the real point lies in the comparative robustness of cues -the sense with
> the best signal-to-noise ratio is likely to dominate in particular
> instances.
>
> Dr. Peter Lennox SFHEA
>
> Senior Lecturer in Perception
>
> College of Arts, Humanities and Education
>
> School of Arts
>
>
>
> e: p.len...@derby.ac.uk<mailto:p.len...@derby.ac.uk>
>
> t: 01332 593155
>
>
>
> https://derby.academia.edu/peterlennox
>
> https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Peter_Lennox
>
>
>
> University of Derby,
> Kedleston Road,
> Derby,
> DE22 1GB, UK
>
> ____________
> From: Sursound  on behalf of Augustine
> Leudar 
> Sent: 16 August 2017 22:14:46
> To: Surround Sound discussion group
> Subject: Re: [Sursound] Sound Based Composition(surround)
>
> This is true too Dave - I know of one audio cue in particular (to do with a
> football bouncing off a wall) that can alter the way you see the way the
> ball moves - Ill have to dig it out. It really sucks being a sound artist
> sometimes ! oh so you're an audio guy What's a sound artist ? What like
> a sound engineer ? or a sound designer ? oooh a jumped up button pusher
> with delusions of grandeur
>
> On 16 August 2017 at 20:06, Dave Malham  wrote:
>
> > I, too, agree with Augustine. A point though that I would make, on the
> side
> > so to speak, is, do not assume that visual cues always override audio
> ones.
> > It is quite common for visual arts people to assume that the visual
> > overrules everything else but, although not as common, audio perceptions
> > can override visual ones at times. Anyway, good luck with your phd.
> >
> > Dave
> >
> >
> > On 16 August 2017 at 15:29, Peter Lennox  wrote:
> >
> > > Wot he said...
> > >
> > > Dr. Peter Lennox SFHEA
> > > Senior Lecturer in Perception
> > > College of Arts, Humanities and Education
> > > School of Arts
> > >
> > > e: p.len...@derby.ac.uk
> > > t: 01332 593155
> > >
> > > https://derby.academia.edu/peterlennox
> > > https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Peter_Lennox
> > >
> > > University of Derby,
> > > Kedleston Road,
> > > Derby,
> > > DE22 1GB, UK
> > >
> > >
> > > -Original Message-
> > > From: Sursound [mailto:sursound-boun...@music.vt.edu] On Behalf Of
> > > Augustine Leudar
> > > Sent: 16 August 2017 15:25
> > > To: Surround Sound discussion group 
> > > Subject: Re: [Sursound] Sound Based Composition(surround)
> > >
> > > As you probably know visual and other cognitive cues often override
> audio
> > > cues (see wallachs amazing cylinder experiment from 1940). I like to
> play
> > > with peoples minds in my installations and create illusions with sound
> -
> > > but these can be massively aided by the careful manipulation of
> cognitive
> > > and visual cues - for me for example the choice of location and how it
> > > looks is just as much a compositional decision as the choice of sounds,
> > > every sensory experience people have from the sight of a speaker, to
> the
> > > smell of the environment will have an associated meaning for listeners
> > and
> > > effect how they hear things, and how believable the world you are
> trying
> > to
> > > transport them to is..
> > > Cognitive cues are massively influential on how we hear and experience
> > the
> > > world - from branding to deciding one person has something more
> important
> > > to say because you know their name, etc etc - you can completely
> override
> > > audio cues - or massively enhance them if you are clever in their use.
> > > However I would suggest practice led research for this kind of project
> -
> > I
> > > have hear

Re: [Sursound] Sound Based Composition(surround)

[Marc Lavallée]

Available, but not free:
http://psycnet.apa.org/doiLanding?doi=10.1037%2Fh0054629

On Thu, 17 Aug 2017 13:05:46 +0100
Augustine Leudar  wrote:

> My favorite experiment/paper on this subject, which although old, is
> still relevant, is "The role of head movements and vestibular and
> visual cues in sound localization " Wallach 1940 - I can't seem to
> find it anywhere though
> - if anyone has it and can post a PDF of it it would be very much
> appreciated.
> 
> On 17 August 2017 at 09:42, Peter Lennox  wrote:
> 
> > The motion bounce illusion, where application of an audible
> > transient alters the visual conclusion, from two circles passing
> > through each other, to a perception of them 'bouncing' off each
> > other, is a good example of audio altering visual perception.
> >
> > it would be simplistic to say that one sense 'dominates' the other,
> > since the real point lies in the comparative robustness of cues
> > -the sense with the best signal-to-noise ratio is likely to
> > dominate in particular instances.
> >
> > Dr. Peter Lennox SFHEA
> >
> > Senior Lecturer in Perception
> >
> > College of Arts, Humanities and Education
> >
> > School of Arts
> >
> >
> >
> > e: p.len...@derby.ac.uk<mailto:p.len...@derby.ac.uk>
> >
> > t: 01332 593155
> >
> >
> >
> > https://derby.academia.edu/peterlennox
> >
> > https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Peter_Lennox
> >
> >
> >
> > University of Derby,
> > Kedleston Road,
> > Derby,
> > DE22 1GB, UK
> >
> > 
> > From: Sursound  on behalf of
> > Augustine Leudar 
> > Sent: 16 August 2017 22:14:46
> > To: Surround Sound discussion group
> > Subject: Re: [Sursound] Sound Based Composition(surround)
> >
> > This is true too Dave - I know of one audio cue in particular (to
> > do with a football bouncing off a wall) that can alter the way you
> > see the way the ball moves - Ill have to dig it out. It really
> > sucks being a sound artist sometimes ! oh so you're an audio
> > guy What's a sound artist ? What like a sound engineer ? or a
> > sound designer ? oooh a jumped up button pusher with delusions
> > of grandeur
> >
> > On 16 August 2017 at 20:06, Dave Malham 
> > wrote: 
> > > I, too, agree with Augustine. A point though that I would make,
> > > on the  
> > side  
> > > so to speak, is, do not assume that visual cues always override
> > > audio  
> > ones.  
> > > It is quite common for visual arts people to assume that the
> > > visual overrules everything else but, although not as common,
> > > audio perceptions can override visual ones at times. Anyway, good
> > > luck with your phd.
> > >
> > > Dave
> > >
> > >
> > > On 16 August 2017 at 15:29, Peter Lennox 
> > > wrote: 
> > > > Wot he said...
> > > >
> > > > Dr. Peter Lennox SFHEA
> > > > Senior Lecturer in Perception
> > > > College of Arts, Humanities and Education
> > > > School of Arts
> > > >
> > > > e: p.len...@derby.ac.uk
> > > > t: 01332 593155
> > > >
> > > > https://derby.academia.edu/peterlennox
> > > > https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Peter_Lennox
> > > >
> > > > University of Derby,
> > > > Kedleston Road,
> > > > Derby,
> > > > DE22 1GB, UK
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > -Original Message-
> > > > From: Sursound [mailto:sursound-boun...@music.vt.edu] On Behalf
> > > > Of Augustine Leudar
> > > > Sent: 16 August 2017 15:25
> > > > To: Surround Sound discussion group 
> > > > Subject: Re: [Sursound] Sound Based Composition(surround)
> > > >
> > > > As you probably know visual and other cognitive cues often
> > > > override  
> > audio  
> > > > cues (see wallachs amazing cylinder experiment from 1940). I
> > > > like to  
> > play  
> > > > with peoples minds in my installations and create illusions
> > > > with sound  
> > -  
> > > > but these can be massively aided by the careful manipulation
> > > > of  
> > cognitive  
> > > > and visual cues - for me for example the choice of location and
> > > > how it looks is just as much a compositional decis

Re: [Sursound] Sound Based Composition(surround)

[????]

Thank you very much :) And there are couple of things I'd like to say: 
I agree with both of you and Thank you very much.. The proposal , I don't know 
how specific should it be And one of the problem is exactly what Augustine 
has mentioned, practice led to research. In that case, the objects... is more 
like a train of thought rather than just propose some problems for future 
research. I'm afraid that will limit the creation as well. So.. how to write a 
decent proposal really confuse me.


About the term, sound-based composition. It is academic.. at first time, I used 
electroacoustics. However, as I hope to combine club electronic music style 
with electroacoustic music, experiment music and so on...The purpose is to have 
both aesthetic value and art value. Sound is a quite potential sources and it 
is also the future of music, that's why I'm not rejected to use this term...For 
composition, as sound and electronic music is quite different from traditional 
music. Composers , always are audio engineer as well. And when we study sound 
composition, we also need to learn psychoacoustics so that we will know what we 
are doing exactly. Besides, combine club electronic means extract some 
approaches or ideas from it, and with principles, those sound works will be 
more humanization and interesting rather than serious all the time. There are 
many people have tried to find a more humanization way to present those art 
works, combination is one of a choice.  


About the visual cues, I've read some paper write by audiovisual artists. To 
them, audio cues and visual cues are oneness rather than one dominate another. 
What I referred  here is human always percept the world with all senses, even 
in dark room, they still keep using every senses which is intuitive. If artists 
use those principles to create sth special, that would be interesting and 
innovation. But indeed, sound always provided informations that visual cues 
cannot present. That's also a interesting point to be research. 






-- Original --
From:  "Peter Lennox";;
Date:  Thu, Aug 17, 2017 04:42 PM
To:  "Surround Sound discussion group"; 

Subject:  Re: [Sursound] Sound Based Composition(surround)



The motion bounce illusion, where application of an audible transient alters 
the visual conclusion, from two circles passing through each other, to a 
perception of them 'bouncing' off each other, is a good example of audio 
altering visual perception.

it would be simplistic to say that one sense 'dominates' the other, since the 
real point lies in the comparative robustness of cues -the sense with the best 
signal-to-noise ratio is likely to dominate in particular instances.

Dr. Peter Lennox SFHEA

Senior Lecturer in Perception

College of Arts, Humanities and Education

School of Arts



e: p.len...@derby.ac.uk<mailto:p.len...@derby.ac.uk>

t: 01332 593155



https://derby.academia.edu/peterlennox

https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Peter_Lennox



University of Derby,
Kedleston Road,
Derby,
DE22 1GB, UK


From: Sursound  on behalf of Augustine Leudar 

Sent: 16 August 2017 22:14:46
To: Surround Sound discussion group
Subject: Re: [Sursound] Sound Based Composition(surround)

This is true too Dave - I know of one audio cue in particular (to do with a
football bouncing off a wall) that can alter the way you see the way the
ball moves - Ill have to dig it out. It really sucks being a sound artist
sometimes ! oh so you're an audio guy What's a sound artist ? What like
a sound engineer ? or a sound designer ? oooh a jumped up button pusher
with delusions of grandeur

On 16 August 2017 at 20:06, Dave Malham  wrote:

> I, too, agree with Augustine. A point though that I would make, on the side
> so to speak, is, do not assume that visual cues always override audio ones.
> It is quite common for visual arts people to assume that the visual
> overrules everything else but, although not as common, audio perceptions
> can override visual ones at times. Anyway, good luck with your phd.
>
> Dave
>
>
> On 16 August 2017 at 15:29, Peter Lennox  wrote:
>
> > Wot he said...
> >
> > Dr. Peter Lennox SFHEA
> > Senior Lecturer in Perception
> > College of Arts, Humanities and Education
> > School of Arts
> >
> > e: p.len...@derby.ac.uk
> > t: 01332 593155
> >
> > https://derby.academia.edu/peterlennox
> > https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Peter_Lennox
> >
> > University of Derby,
> > Kedleston Road,
> > Derby,
> > DE22 1GB, UK
> >
> >
> > -Original Message-
> > From: Sursound [mailto:sursound-boun...@music.vt.edu] On Behalf Of
> > Augustine Leudar
> > Sent: 16 August 2017 15:25
> > To: Surround 

Re: [Sursound] Sound Based Composition(surround)

[Marc Lavallée]

Correct link:
http://psycnet.apa.org/record/1941-00108-001

On Thu, 17 Aug 2017 08:14:21 -0400
Marc Lavallée  wrote:

> Available, but not free:
> http://psycnet.apa.org/doiLanding?doi=10.1037%2Fh0054629
> 
> On Thu, 17 Aug 2017 13:05:46 +0100
> Augustine Leudar  wrote:
> 
> > My favorite experiment/paper on this subject, which although old, is
> > still relevant, is "The role of head movements and vestibular and
> > visual cues in sound localization " Wallach 1940 - I can't seem to
> > find it anywhere though
> > - if anyone has it and can post a PDF of it it would be very much
> > appreciated.
> > 
> > On 17 August 2017 at 09:42, Peter Lennox 
> > wrote: 
> > > The motion bounce illusion, where application of an audible
> > > transient alters the visual conclusion, from two circles passing
> > > through each other, to a perception of them 'bouncing' off each
> > > other, is a good example of audio altering visual perception.
> > >
> > > it would be simplistic to say that one sense 'dominates' the
> > > other, since the real point lies in the comparative robustness of
> > > cues -the sense with the best signal-to-noise ratio is likely to
> > > dominate in particular instances.
> > >
> > > Dr. Peter Lennox SFHEA
> > >
> > > Senior Lecturer in Perception
> > >
> > > College of Arts, Humanities and Education
> > >
> > > School of Arts
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > e: p.len...@derby.ac.uk<mailto:p.len...@derby.ac.uk>
> > >
> > > t: 01332 593155
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > https://derby.academia.edu/peterlennox
> > >
> > > https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Peter_Lennox
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > University of Derby,
> > > Kedleston Road,
> > > Derby,
> > > DE22 1GB, UK
> > >
> > > 
> > > From: Sursound  on behalf of
> > > Augustine Leudar 
> > > Sent: 16 August 2017 22:14:46
> > > To: Surround Sound discussion group
> > > Subject: Re: [Sursound] Sound Based Composition(surround)
> > >
> > > This is true too Dave - I know of one audio cue in particular (to
> > > do with a football bouncing off a wall) that can alter the way you
> > > see the way the ball moves - Ill have to dig it out. It really
> > > sucks being a sound artist sometimes ! oh so you're an audio
> > > guy What's a sound artist ? What like a sound engineer ? or a
> > > sound designer ? oooh a jumped up button pusher with delusions
> > > of grandeur
> > >
> > > On 16 August 2017 at 20:06, Dave Malham 
> > > wrote:   
> > > > I, too, agree with Augustine. A point though that I would make,
> > > > on the
> > > side
> > > > so to speak, is, do not assume that visual cues always override
> > > > audio
> > > ones.
> > > > It is quite common for visual arts people to assume that the
> > > > visual overrules everything else but, although not as common,
> > > > audio perceptions can override visual ones at times. Anyway,
> > > > good luck with your phd.
> > > >
> > > > Dave
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On 16 August 2017 at 15:29, Peter Lennox 
> > > > wrote:   
> > > > > Wot he said...
> > > > >
> > > > > Dr. Peter Lennox SFHEA
> > > > > Senior Lecturer in Perception
> > > > > College of Arts, Humanities and Education
> > > > > School of Arts
> > > > >
> > > > > e: p.len...@derby.ac.uk
> > > > > t: 01332 593155
> > > > >
> > > > > https://derby.academia.edu/peterlennox
> > > > > https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Peter_Lennox
> > > > >
> > > > > University of Derby,
> > > > > Kedleston Road,
> > > > > Derby,
> > > > > DE22 1GB, UK
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > -Original Message-
> > > > > From: Sursound [mailto:sursound-boun...@music.vt.edu] On
> > > > > Behalf Of Augustine Leudar
> > > > > Sent: 16 August 2017 15:25
> > > > > To: Surround Sound discussion group 
> > > > > Subject: Re: [Sursound] Sound Based Composition(surround)
&

Re: [Sursound] Sound Based Composition(surround)

[????]

And.. 
Dr. Peter Lennox , thank you for introducing so many related researchers. I'll 
check it out and think about your suggestions carefully. 


P.s I don't have supervisor at present so everything relies on myself... 


Yilin 




-- Original --
From:  "Peter Lennox";;
Date:  Wed, Aug 16, 2017 10:29 PM
To:  "Surround Sound discussion group"; 

Subject:  Re: [Sursound] Sound Based Composition(surround)



Wot he said...

Dr. Peter Lennox SFHEA
Senior Lecturer in Perception
College of Arts, Humanities and Education
School of Arts

e: p.len...@derby.ac.uk
t: 01332 593155

https://derby.academia.edu/peterlennox
https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Peter_Lennox

University of Derby,
Kedleston Road,
Derby,
DE22 1GB, UK


-Original Message-
From: Sursound [mailto:sursound-boun...@music.vt.edu] On Behalf Of Augustine 
Leudar
Sent: 16 August 2017 15:25
To: Surround Sound discussion group 
Subject: Re: [Sursound] Sound Based Composition(surround)

As you probably know visual and other cognitive cues often override audio cues 
(see wallachs amazing cylinder experiment from 1940). I like to play with 
peoples minds in my installations and create illusions with sound - but these 
can be massively aided by the careful manipulation of cognitive and visual cues 
- for me for example the choice of location and how it looks is just as much a 
compositional decision as the choice of sounds, every sensory experience people 
have from the sight of a speaker, to the smell of the environment will have an 
associated meaning for listeners and effect how they hear things, and how 
believable the world you are trying to transport them to is..
Cognitive cues are massively influential on how we hear and experience the 
world - from branding to deciding one person has something more important to 
say because you know their name, etc etc - you can completely override audio 
cues - or massively enhance them if you are clever in their use.
However I would suggest practice led research for this kind of project - I have 
heard so many things that sound very good on paper but dont actually work - to 
really add to the body of human knowledge I would say do it the other way round 
here - find out what works then write about it.
There are loads of really interesting avenues of research in this topic - from 
intepoliation in HRTF data sets to various applications in VR.
Although not sound based there is research for example in VR - you put a 
headset on and walk in a room - you think you are walking in a straight line 
but actually you are walking in a curve - the research is determining how far 
visual cues can foll haptic ones, how much of a curve can you get away with 
There are many audio equivelants to this "curve". .I am also involved in 
sound sculpture but not perhaps in the way you mean - I make actual sculptures 
with sonics bult into them - I like technology to be hidden for the 
aforementioned cognitive reasons- I also do a lot of installations in natural 
environments that integrate psychoacoustic and cognitive research (such as the 
cocktail party effect and precedence etc) .
I can send you some papers I wrote on using these cues in sound installation 
and theatre if you PM me. I also would be wary of terms like "sound based 
music" it sounds like pure academese - I understand the importance of academic 
writing style you have the potential to write an interesting research project 
and create a great portfolio which actually is clever and doesnt need to 
obscure its content with unnecessary esoteric language . My advice would be to 
follow your passion and not let yourself get led into something you're not 
really that interested in or that makes your supervisor feel safer - to finish 
you will need to be really engaged.

On 16 August 2017 at 13:45, Peter Lennox  wrote:

> You probably have a supervisor, so I wouldn't want to interfere.
> But it seems to me that your main aim is too broad, too vague. You
> seem to be saying something like "the perception of music partly
> relies on processes (neural, cognitive and psychological) that exist
> for other than musical reasons - so how can this principle be applied
> to enrich music and sound art?"
>  - but of course, composers have always done this. Take the principle
> of "intuitive physics" (1993: 'Intuitive Physics', in Eilan, McCarthy
> and Brewer, (eds.), Problems in the Philosophy and Psychology of
> Spatial Representation; 99-112) - then compare "flight of the bumble
> bee" with Prokoviev's "Dance of the Knights" (a track on Romeo and
> Juliet) - you can hear that they rely on extra-musical associations
> about size (mass) and therefore momentum, and the sorts of movement
> (acceleration, change of
> direction) that might be expected for beings of differing masses

Re: [Sursound] Sound Based Composition(surround)

[David Worrall]

Another compelling example of aural-dominated visual experience is to observe 
the effect to which the music of a film scene can radically effect not only the 
emotional experience of the experience, but of the meaning of the images 
themselves.

I suspect whether or not the image object(s) is static or in motion is also a 
contributor.

 

Cheers to all,

 

David

 

---

David Worrall, PhD

Professor and Chair

Audio Arts and Acoustics Department

School of Media Arts

Columbia College Chicago

33 E Congress Pkwy Room 601N

Chicago, ILLINOIS, USA 60605

Tel: (1)312.369.8821 Fax: (1)312.369.8427

President, International Community for Auditory Display icad.org

personal research/creative practice website: avatar.com.au

 

 

From: Sursound  on behalf of Peter Lennox 

Reply-To: Surround Sound discussion group 
Date: Thursday, August 17, 2017 at 3:42 AM
To: Surround Sound discussion group 
Subject: Re: [Sursound] Sound Based Composition(surround)

 

The motion bounce illusion, where application of an audible transient alters 
the visual conclusion, from two circles passing through each other, to a 
perception of them 'bouncing' off each other, is a good example of audio 
altering visual perception.

 

it would be simplistic to say that one sense 'dominates' the other, since the 
real point lies in the comparative robustness of cues -the sense with the best 
signal-to-noise ratio is likely to dominate in particular instances.

 

Dr. Peter Lennox SFHEA

 

Senior Lecturer in Perception

 

College of Arts, Humanities and Education

 

School of Arts

 

 

 

e: p.len...@derby.ac.uk<mailto:p.len...@derby.ac.uk>

 

t: 01332 593155

 

 

 

https://derby.academia.edu/peterlennox

 

https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Peter_Lennox

 

 

 

University of Derby,

Kedleston Road,

Derby,

DE22 1GB, UK

 



From: Sursound  on behalf of Augustine Leudar 


Sent: 16 August 2017 22:14:46

To: Surround Sound discussion group

Subject: Re: [Sursound] Sound Based Composition(surround)

 

This is true too Dave - I know of one audio cue in particular (to do with a

football bouncing off a wall) that can alter the way you see the way the

ball moves - Ill have to dig it out. It really sucks being a sound artist

sometimes ! oh so you're an audio guy What's a sound artist ? What like

a sound engineer ? or a sound designer ? oooh a jumped up button pusher

with delusions of grandeur

 

On 16 August 2017 at 20:06, Dave Malham  wrote:

 

I, too, agree with Augustine. A point though that I would make, on the side

so to speak, is, do not assume that visual cues always override audio ones.

It is quite common for visual arts people to assume that the visual

overrules everything else but, although not as common, audio perceptions

can override visual ones at times. Anyway, good luck with your phd.

 

 Dave

 

 

On 16 August 2017 at 15:29, Peter Lennox  wrote:

 

> Wot he said...

> 

> Dr. Peter Lennox SFHEA

> Senior Lecturer in Perception

> College of Arts, Humanities and Education

> School of Arts

> 

> e: p.len...@derby.ac.uk

> t: 01332 593155

> 

> https://derby.academia.edu/peterlennox

> https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Peter_Lennox

> 

> University of Derby,

> Kedleston Road,

> Derby,

> DE22 1GB, UK

> 

> 

> -Original Message-

> From: Sursound [mailto:sursound-boun...@music.vt.edu] On Behalf Of

> Augustine Leudar

> Sent: 16 August 2017 15:25

> To: Surround Sound discussion group 

> Subject: Re: [Sursound] Sound Based Composition(surround)

> 

> As you probably know visual and other cognitive cues often override audio

> cues (see wallachs amazing cylinder experiment from 1940). I like to play

> with peoples minds in my installations and create illusions with sound -

> but these can be massively aided by the careful manipulation of cognitive

> and visual cues - for me for example the choice of location and how it

> looks is just as much a compositional decision as the choice of sounds,

> every sensory experience people have from the sight of a speaker, to the

> smell of the environment will have an associated meaning for listeners

and

> effect how they hear things, and how believable the world you are trying

to

> transport them to is..

> Cognitive cues are massively influential on how we hear and experience

the

> world - from branding to deciding one person has something more important

> to say because you know their name, etc etc - you can completely override

> audio cues - or massively enhance them if you are clever in their use.

> However I would suggest practice led research for this kind of project -

I

> have heard so many things that sound very good on paper but dont actually

> work - to really add to the body of human knowledge I would 

Re: [Sursound] Sound Based Composition(surround)

[Phi Shu]

Just curious, why do you want to do a PhD at all? are you planning on being
an academic?

Also, you seem to be in a muddle with all the labels and text book
definitions you are citing. The whole sound versus music thing (be it sonic
arts, sound art, electroacoustic music, acousmatic music etc. etc.) forget
all that nonsense, it's a trap. Follow that path and like it or not you
will always be distracted by having to pander to either academic or 'art
world' gatekeepers. All these silly little boxes people want to put things
in are a distraction. Focus on what you want to say artistically, what you
want to express, don't get wrapped up in trying to make it fit within a
preexisting frame.

Oh, and if you are bent on making a PhD proposal, stick "embodied" in there
somewhere, it's still trendingand "immersive experience" is sexy now
too, money being thrown at that
<http://www.ahrc.ac.uk/funding/opportunities/current/research-and-partnership-development-call-for-the-next-generation-of-immersive-experiences/>
.

On Thu, Aug 17, 2017 at 1:40 PM, 霖の <951343...@qq.com> wrote:

> Thank you very much :) And there are couple of things I'd like to say:
> I agree with both of you and Thank you very much.. The proposal , I don't
> know how specific should it be And one of the problem is exactly what
> Augustine has mentioned, practice led to research. In that case, the
> objects... is more like a train of thought rather than just propose some
> problems for future research. I'm afraid that will limit the creation as
> well. So.. how to write a decent proposal really confuse me.
>
>
> About the term, sound-based composition. It is academic.. at first time, I
> used electroacoustics. However, as I hope to combine club electronic music
> style with electroacoustic music, experiment music and so on...The purpose
> is to have both aesthetic value and art value. Sound is a quite potential
> sources and it is also the future of music, that's why I'm not rejected to
> use this term...For composition, as sound and electronic music is quite
> different from traditional music. Composers , always are audio engineer as
> well. And when we study sound composition, we also need to learn
> psychoacoustics so that we will know what we are doing exactly. Besides,
> combine club electronic means extract some approaches or ideas from it, and
> with principles, those sound works will be more humanization and
> interesting rather than serious all the time. There are many people have
> tried to find a more humanization way to present those art works,
> combination is one of a choice.
>
>
> About the visual cues, I've read some paper write by audiovisual artists.
> To them, audio cues and visual cues are oneness rather than one dominate
> another. What I referred  here is human always percept the world with all
> senses, even in dark room, they still keep using every senses which is
> intuitive. If artists use those principles to create sth special, that
> would be interesting and innovation. But indeed, sound always provided
> informations that visual cues cannot present. That's also a interesting
> point to be research.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> -- Original --
> From:  "Peter Lennox";;
> Date:  Thu, Aug 17, 2017 04:42 PM
> To:  "Surround Sound discussion group";
>
> Subject:  Re: [Sursound] Sound Based Composition(surround)
>
>
>
> The motion bounce illusion, where application of an audible transient
> alters the visual conclusion, from two circles passing through each other,
> to a perception of them 'bouncing' off each other, is a good example of
> audio altering visual perception.
>
> it would be simplistic to say that one sense 'dominates' the other, since
> the real point lies in the comparative robustness of cues -the sense with
> the best signal-to-noise ratio is likely to dominate in particular
> instances.
>
> Dr. Peter Lennox SFHEA
>
> Senior Lecturer in Perception
>
> College of Arts, Humanities and Education
>
> School of Arts
>
>
>
> e: p.len...@derby.ac.uk<mailto:p.len...@derby.ac.uk>
>
> t: 01332 593155
>
>
>
> https://derby.academia.edu/peterlennox
>
> https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Peter_Lennox
>
>
>
> University of Derby,
> Kedleston Road,
> Derby,
> DE22 1GB, UK
>
> 
> From: Sursound  on behalf of Augustine
> Leudar 
> Sent: 16 August 2017 22:14:46
> To: Surround Sound discussion group
> Subject: Re: [Sursound] Sound Based Composition(surround)
>
> This is true too Dave - I know of one audio cue in particular (to do with a
> football bouncing

Re: [Sursound] Sound Based Composition(surround)

[Augustine Leudar]

Dont forget "interactive" and "gesture based" Phi

On 17 August 2017 at 19:06, Phi Shu  wrote:

> Just curious, why do you want to do a PhD at all? are you planning on being
> an academic?
>
> Also, you seem to be in a muddle with all the labels and text book
> definitions you are citing. The whole sound versus music thing (be it sonic
> arts, sound art, electroacoustic music, acousmatic music etc. etc.) forget
> all that nonsense, it's a trap. Follow that path and like it or not you
> will always be distracted by having to pander to either academic or 'art
> world' gatekeepers. All these silly little boxes people want to put things
> in are a distraction. Focus on what you want to say artistically, what you
> want to express, don't get wrapped up in trying to make it fit within a
> preexisting frame.
>
> Oh, and if you are bent on making a PhD proposal, stick "embodied" in there
> somewhere, it's still trendingand "immersive experience" is sexy now
> too, money being thrown at that
> <http://www.ahrc.ac.uk/funding/opportunities/current/
> research-and-partnership-development-call-for-the-next-
> generation-of-immersive-experiences/>
> .
>
> On Thu, Aug 17, 2017 at 1:40 PM, 霖の <951343...@qq.com> wrote:
>
> > Thank you very much :) And there are couple of things I'd like to say:
> > I agree with both of you and Thank you very much.. The proposal , I don't
> > know how specific should it be And one of the problem is exactly what
> > Augustine has mentioned, practice led to research. In that case, the
> > objects... is more like a train of thought rather than just propose some
> > problems for future research. I'm afraid that will limit the creation as
> > well. So.. how to write a decent proposal really confuse me.
> >
> >
> > About the term, sound-based composition. It is academic.. at first time,
> I
> > used electroacoustics. However, as I hope to combine club electronic
> music
> > style with electroacoustic music, experiment music and so on...The
> purpose
> > is to have both aesthetic value and art value. Sound is a quite potential
> > sources and it is also the future of music, that's why I'm not rejected
> to
> > use this term...For composition, as sound and electronic music is quite
> > different from traditional music. Composers , always are audio engineer
> as
> > well. And when we study sound composition, we also need to learn
> > psychoacoustics so that we will know what we are doing exactly. Besides,
> > combine club electronic means extract some approaches or ideas from it,
> and
> > with principles, those sound works will be more humanization and
> > interesting rather than serious all the time. There are many people have
> > tried to find a more humanization way to present those art works,
> > combination is one of a choice.
> >
> >
> > About the visual cues, I've read some paper write by audiovisual artists.
> > To them, audio cues and visual cues are oneness rather than one dominate
> > another. What I referred  here is human always percept the world with all
> > senses, even in dark room, they still keep using every senses which is
> > intuitive. If artists use those principles to create sth special, that
> > would be interesting and innovation. But indeed, sound always provided
> > informations that visual cues cannot present. That's also a interesting
> > point to be research.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > -- Original --
> > From:  "Peter Lennox";;
> > Date:  Thu, Aug 17, 2017 04:42 PM
> > To:  "Surround Sound discussion group";
> >
> > Subject:  Re: [Sursound] Sound Based Composition(surround)
> >
> >
> >
> > The motion bounce illusion, where application of an audible transient
> > alters the visual conclusion, from two circles passing through each
> other,
> > to a perception of them 'bouncing' off each other, is a good example of
> > audio altering visual perception.
> >
> > it would be simplistic to say that one sense 'dominates' the other, since
> > the real point lies in the comparative robustness of cues -the sense with
> > the best signal-to-noise ratio is likely to dominate in particular
> > instances.
> >
> > Dr. Peter Lennox SFHEA
> >
> > Senior Lecturer in Perception
> >
> > College of Arts, Humanities and Education
> >
> > School of Arts
> >
> >
> >
> > e: p.len...@derby.ac.uk<mailto:

Re: [Sursound] Sound Based Composition(surround)

[Peter Lennox]

...and "extended mind", and "augmented perception", and "multimodal 
perception", along with "superadditive effects"


Dr. Peter Lennox SFHEA

Senior Lecturer in Perception

College of Arts, Humanities and Education

School of Arts



e: p.len...@derby.ac.uk<mailto:p.len...@derby.ac.uk>

t: 01332 593155



https://derby.academia.edu/peterlennox

https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Peter_Lennox



University of Derby,
Kedleston Road,
Derby,
DE22 1GB, UK


From: Sursound  on behalf of Augustine Leudar 

Sent: 17 August 2017 20:17:37
To: Surround Sound discussion group
Subject: Re: [Sursound] Sound Based Composition(surround)

Dont forget "interactive" and "gesture based" Phi

On 17 August 2017 at 19:06, Phi Shu  wrote:

> Just curious, why do you want to do a PhD at all? are you planning on being
> an academic?
>
> Also, you seem to be in a muddle with all the labels and text book
> definitions you are citing. The whole sound versus music thing (be it sonic
> arts, sound art, electroacoustic music, acousmatic music etc. etc.) forget
> all that nonsense, it's a trap. Follow that path and like it or not you
> will always be distracted by having to pander to either academic or 'art
> world' gatekeepers. All these silly little boxes people want to put things
> in are a distraction. Focus on what you want to say artistically, what you
> want to express, don't get wrapped up in trying to make it fit within a
> preexisting frame.
>
> Oh, and if you are bent on making a PhD proposal, stick "embodied" in there
> somewhere, it's still trendingand "immersive experience" is sexy now
> too, money being thrown at that
> <http://www.ahrc.ac.uk/funding/opportunities/current/
> research-and-partnership-development-call-for-the-next-
> generation-of-immersive-experiences/>
> .
>
> On Thu, Aug 17, 2017 at 1:40 PM, 霖の <951343...@qq.com> wrote:
>
> > Thank you very much :) And there are couple of things I'd like to say:
> > I agree with both of you and Thank you very much.. The proposal , I don't
> > know how specific should it be And one of the problem is exactly what
> > Augustine has mentioned, practice led to research. In that case, the
> > objects... is more like a train of thought rather than just propose some
> > problems for future research. I'm afraid that will limit the creation as
> > well. So.. how to write a decent proposal really confuse me.
> >
> >
> > About the term, sound-based composition. It is academic.. at first time,
> I
> > used electroacoustics. However, as I hope to combine club electronic
> music
> > style with electroacoustic music, experiment music and so on...The
> purpose
> > is to have both aesthetic value and art value. Sound is a quite potential
> > sources and it is also the future of music, that's why I'm not rejected
> to
> > use this term...For composition, as sound and electronic music is quite
> > different from traditional music. Composers , always are audio engineer
> as
> > well. And when we study sound composition, we also need to learn
> > psychoacoustics so that we will know what we are doing exactly. Besides,
> > combine club electronic means extract some approaches or ideas from it,
> and
> > with principles, those sound works will be more humanization and
> > interesting rather than serious all the time. There are many people have
> > tried to find a more humanization way to present those art works,
> > combination is one of a choice.
> >
> >
> > About the visual cues, I've read some paper write by audiovisual artists.
> > To them, audio cues and visual cues are oneness rather than one dominate
> > another. What I referred  here is human always percept the world with all
> > senses, even in dark room, they still keep using every senses which is
> > intuitive. If artists use those principles to create sth special, that
> > would be interesting and innovation. But indeed, sound always provided
> > informations that visual cues cannot present. That's also a interesting
> > point to be research.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > -- Original --
> > From:  "Peter Lennox";;
> > Date:  Thu, Aug 17, 2017 04:42 PM
> > To:  "Surround Sound discussion group";
> >
> > Subject:  Re: [Sursound] Sound Based Composition(surround)
> >
> >
> >
> > The motion bounce illusion, where application of an audible transient
> > alters the visual conclusion, from two circles passin

Re: [Sursound] Sound Based Composition(surround)

[Augustine Leudar]

There's no doubt that our perception of the world is a complex interplay of
all our senses coupled with various concepts nestling in our brain . Any of
us who work in audio (especially film, theatre etc) can frequently be heard
moaning about how underappreciated audio is and how without it the
production would be nothing etc etc. However ask most people whether they'd
rather be blind or deaf... . Its quite common to close your eyes to
appreciate music but I have never known someone to cover their ears to
appreciate a painting. There is plenty of evidence that our visual sense is
generally dominant in general to our other senses in our culture (but not
always and it depends on the situation of course ) .and this obviously
changes in low light levels . In the rain-forest sound is just as important
as sight because your visual range is limited. Audio cues are often
preferred in theatre to visual cues as you can hear round corners, and
through actors.
But really I'm referring to acoustic and spatial audio cues here .I once
investigated this after reading Wallachs experiment (quoted below).Very
briefly :

The experiment describes someone standing inside a rotating fabric
> cylinder. Although they are stood stock still ,due to the stripes on the
> inside of the rotating cylinder they perceive themselves to be rotating not
> the cylinder. There is a loudspeaker on the other side of this fabric
> cylinder pointing directly between their ears so ILDs and ITDs are equal.
> They should localise the speaker directly in front of them (or behind) but
> they don't. Instead they localise the sound directly above their head. This
> is because if they are rotating(they are not but their brain thinks they
> are) then the only place a sound can be if it doesnt move in the horizontal
> plane is directly above them .


upon reading this I wondered how I could use such research to deceive
audiences -  and if there may be equally striking example of audio cues
overriding visual ones - I could find very few  whereas I found more
examples of visual cues overriding audio ones. But its not just about
vision or hearing or smelling - its about what people expect to perceive
.It all depends on context - how we perceive anything visually, aurally or
anything else depends on the context. IF you walk into a rainforest and
hear rainforest sounds you are not suprised - if you open your fridge
freezer and they emanate from inside it - you would be. I'm saving that one
for my mother in law.

Wallachs experiment :



> "When an observer is placed inside a revolving screen he will, after a
> while, no longer perceive the surrounding screen in motion; rather he will
> feel himself rotating
> in a direction opposite..."
> ". A loudspeaker is placed at some distance beyond the screen straight in
> front of the observer  whose head is kept in a constant position by a
> chin-rest. When now during induced movement a sound is presented in the
> loudspeaker, the above conditions for hearing a sound vertically above
> are given: the head of the observer 'turns about a vertical axis, and at
> the same time the sound remains always in a median position with
> reference to the head. In this stiuation the sound is actually heard
> vertically above." Wallach 1940 p 362-363




On 17 August 2017 at 17:24, David Worrall  wrote:

> Another compelling example of aural-dominated visual experience is to
> observe the effect to which the music of a film scene can radically effect
> not only the emotional experience of the experience, but of the meaning of
> the images themselves.
>
> I suspect whether or not the image object(s) is static or in motion is
> also a contributor.
>
>
>
> Cheers to all,
>
>
>
> David
>
>
>
> ---
>
> David Worrall, PhD
>
> Professor and Chair
>
> Audio Arts and Acoustics Department
>
> School of Media Arts
>
> Columbia College Chicago
>
> 33 E Congress Pkwy Room 601N
>
> Chicago, ILLINOIS, USA 60605
>
> Tel: (1)312.369.8821 Fax: (1)312.369.8427
>
> President, International Community for Auditory Display icad.org
>
> personal research/creative practice website: avatar.com.au
>
>
>
>
>
> From: Sursound  on behalf of Peter Lennox <
> p.len...@derby.ac.uk>
> Reply-To: Surround Sound discussion group 
> Date: Thursday, August 17, 2017 at 3:42 AM
> To: Surround Sound discussion group 
> Subject: Re: [Sursound] Sound Based Composition(surround)
>
>
>
> The motion bounce illusion, where application of an audible transient
> alters the visual conclusion, from two circles passing through each other,
> to a perception of them 'bouncing' off each other, is a good example of
> audio altering visual perception.
>
>
>
> it would be simplistic t

Re: [Sursound] Sound Based Composition(surround)

[Augustine Leudar]

I think you misunderstand what I am saying but it's ok.  Anyway you might
want to look at Stanford. Some of their top academics described academia as
a cancer for creativity :

http://news.stanford.edu/news/2009/november2/art-academia-debate-110409.html

I believe some PhDs now have almost no written content whatsoever their
now. I think the whole concept of research having to be based on research
questions is outdated - it makes sense for some fields but not really for
art - in fact I think it hampers innovation. If  art and music seeks to
express something that can't be expressed verbally - how can you base such
activity on verbal research questions with out turning art into something
dead and pretentious and utterly limited by verbal thought processes. The
solution in the arts seems to have been to make those verbal though
processes ridiculously convoluted as possible . Have fun with that one
anyway and good luck.

On 17 August 2017 at 13:40, 霖の <951343...@qq.com> wrote:

> Thank you very much :) And there are couple of things I'd like to say:
> I agree with both of you and Thank you very much.. The proposal , I don't
> know how specific should it be And one of the problem is exactly what
> Augustine has mentioned, practice led to research. In that case, the
> objects... is more like a train of thought rather than just propose some
> problems for future research. I'm afraid that will limit the creation as
> well. So.. how to write a decent proposal really confuse me.
>
>
> About the term, sound-based composition. It is academic.. at first time, I
> used electroacoustics. However, as I hope to combine club electronic music
> style with electroacoustic music, experiment music and so on...The purpose
> is to have both aesthetic value and art value. Sound is a quite potential
> sources and it is also the future of music, that's why I'm not rejected to
> use this term...For composition, as sound and electronic music is quite
> different from traditional music. Composers , always are audio engineer as
> well. And when we study sound composition, we also need to learn
> psychoacoustics so that we will know what we are doing exactly. Besides,
> combine club electronic means extract some approaches or ideas from it, and
> with principles, those sound works will be more humanization and
> interesting rather than serious all the time. There are many people have
> tried to find a more humanization way to present those art works,
> combination is one of a choice.
>
>
> About the visual cues, I've read some paper write by audiovisual artists.
> To them, audio cues and visual cues are oneness rather than one dominate
> another. What I referred  here is human always percept the world with all
> senses, even in dark room, they still keep using every senses which is
> intuitive. If artists use those principles to create sth special, that
> would be interesting and innovation. But indeed, sound always provided
> informations that visual cues cannot present. That's also a interesting
> point to be research.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ---------- Original --
> From:  "Peter Lennox";;
> Date:  Thu, Aug 17, 2017 04:42 PM
> To:  "Surround Sound discussion group";
>
> Subject:  Re: [Sursound] Sound Based Composition(surround)
>
>
>
> The motion bounce illusion, where application of an audible transient
> alters the visual conclusion, from two circles passing through each other,
> to a perception of them 'bouncing' off each other, is a good example of
> audio altering visual perception.
>
> it would be simplistic to say that one sense 'dominates' the other, since
> the real point lies in the comparative robustness of cues -the sense with
> the best signal-to-noise ratio is likely to dominate in particular
> instances.
>
> Dr. Peter Lennox SFHEA
>
> Senior Lecturer in Perception
>
> College of Arts, Humanities and Education
>
> School of Arts
>
>
>
> e: p.len...@derby.ac.uk<mailto:p.len...@derby.ac.uk>
>
> t: 01332 593155
>
>
>
> https://derby.academia.edu/peterlennox
>
> https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Peter_Lennox
>
>
>
> University of Derby,
> Kedleston Road,
> Derby,
> DE22 1GB, UK
>
> 
> From: Sursound  on behalf of Augustine
> Leudar 
> Sent: 16 August 2017 22:14:46
> To: Surround Sound discussion group
> Subject: Re: [Sursound] Sound Based Composition(surround)
>
> This is true too Dave - I know of one audio cue in particular (to do with a
> football bouncing off a wall) that can alter the way you see the way the
> ball moves - Ill have to dig it out. It really sucks being a sound artist
> 

Re: [Sursound] Sound Based Composition(surround)

[????]

Well, on compositional area, including audiovisual music composition, it still 
quite hard to create sth like "immersive experiences" or "multimodal 
perception".  However, imaginary experiences may created if appropriate sound 
sources and composing techniques has been referred. 




-- Original --
From:  "Peter Lennox";;
Date:  Fri, Aug 18, 2017 03:20 AM
To:  "Surround Sound discussion group"; 

Subject:  Re: [Sursound] Sound Based Composition(surround)



...and "extended mind", and "augmented perception", and "multimodal 
perception", along with "superadditive effects"


Dr. Peter Lennox SFHEA

Senior Lecturer in Perception

College of Arts, Humanities and Education

School of Arts



e: p.len...@derby.ac.uk<mailto:p.len...@derby.ac.uk>

t: 01332 593155



https://derby.academia.edu/peterlennox

https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Peter_Lennox



University of Derby,
Kedleston Road,
Derby,
DE22 1GB, UK


From: Sursound  on behalf of Augustine Leudar 

Sent: 17 August 2017 20:17:37
To: Surround Sound discussion group
Subject: Re: [Sursound] Sound Based Composition(surround)

Dont forget "interactive" and "gesture based" Phi

On 17 August 2017 at 19:06, Phi Shu  wrote:

> Just curious, why do you want to do a PhD at all? are you planning on being
> an academic?
>
> Also, you seem to be in a muddle with all the labels and text book
> definitions you are citing. The whole sound versus music thing (be it sonic
> arts, sound art, electroacoustic music, acousmatic music etc. etc.) forget
> all that nonsense, it's a trap. Follow that path and like it or not you
> will always be distracted by having to pander to either academic or 'art
> world' gatekeepers. All these silly little boxes people want to put things
> in are a distraction. Focus on what you want to say artistically, what you
> want to express, don't get wrapped up in trying to make it fit within a
> preexisting frame.
>
> Oh, and if you are bent on making a PhD proposal, stick "embodied" in there
> somewhere, it's still trendingand "immersive experience" is sexy now
> too, money being thrown at that
> <http://www.ahrc.ac.uk/funding/opportunities/current/
> research-and-partnership-development-call-for-the-next-
> generation-of-immersive-experiences/>
> .
>
> On Thu, Aug 17, 2017 at 1:40 PM,  <951343...@qq.com> wrote:
>
> > Thank you very much :) And there are couple of things I'd like to say:
> > I agree with both of you and Thank you very much.. The proposal , I don't
> > know how specific should it be And one of the problem is exactly what
> > Augustine has mentioned, practice led to research. In that case, the
> > objects... is more like a train of thought rather than just propose some
> > problems for future research. I'm afraid that will limit the creation as
> > well. So.. how to write a decent proposal really confuse me.
> >
> >
> > About the term, sound-based composition. It is academic.. at first time,
> I
> > used electroacoustics. However, as I hope to combine club electronic
> music
> > style with electroacoustic music, experiment music and so on...The
> purpose
> > is to have both aesthetic value and art value. Sound is a quite potential
> > sources and it is also the future of music, that's why I'm not rejected
> to
> > use this term...For composition, as sound and electronic music is quite
> > different from traditional music. Composers , always are audio engineer
> as
> > well. And when we study sound composition, we also need to learn
> > psychoacoustics so that we will know what we are doing exactly. Besides,
> > combine club electronic means extract some approaches or ideas from it,
> and
> > with principles, those sound works will be more humanization and
> > interesting rather than serious all the time. There are many people have
> > tried to find a more humanization way to present those art works,
> > combination is one of a choice.
> >
> >
> > About the visual cues, I've read some paper write by audiovisual artists.
> > To them, audio cues and visual cues are oneness rather than one dominate
> > another. What I referred  here is human always percept the world with all
> > senses, even in dark room, they still keep using every senses which is
> > intuitive. If artists use those principles to create sth special, that
> > would be interesting and innovation. But indeed, sound always provided
> > informations that visual cues cannot present. That's also a interesting
> > point

Re: [Sursound] Sound Based Composition(surround)

[Peter Lennox]

I'm just publishing a paper - well, writing it - on multimodal spatial music. 
(and "immersive" crops up a lot in subjects' comments)

Also, see: Nanayakkara, S. C. Enhancing Musical Experience for the 
Hearing-impaired using Visual and Haptic Feedback.
Department of Electrical & Computer Engineering, National University of 
Singapore. PhD Thesis. 2006

The point being that, whilst multimodal techniques may produce useful assistive 
technologies, we found that they can also be enjoyed by those without hearing 
impairment. The trick is to rethink what the constraints on composition 
actually are, if it's a new type of experience.

Dr. Peter Lennox SFHEA
Senior Lecturer in Perception
College of Arts, Humanities and Education
School of Arts

e: p.len...@derby.ac.uk
t: 01332 593155

https://derby.academia.edu/peterlennox
https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Peter_Lennox

University of Derby,
Kedleston Road,
Derby,
DE22 1GB, UK

-Original Message-
From: Sursound [mailto:sursound-boun...@music.vt.edu] On Behalf Of ??
Sent: 18 August 2017 06:17
To: Surround Sound discussion group 
Subject: Re: [Sursound] Sound Based Composition(surround)

Well, on compositional area, including audiovisual music composition, it still 
quite hard to create sth like "immersive experiences" or "multimodal 
perception".  However, imaginary experiences may created if appropriate sound 
sources and composing techniques has been referred.




-- Original --
From:  "Peter Lennox";;
Date:  Fri, Aug 18, 2017 03:20 AM
To:  "Surround Sound discussion group";

Subject:  Re: [Sursound] Sound Based Composition(surround)



...and "extended mind", and "augmented perception", and "multimodal 
perception", along with "superadditive effects"


Dr. Peter Lennox SFHEA

Senior Lecturer in Perception

College of Arts, Humanities and Education

School of Arts



e: p.len...@derby.ac.uk<mailto:p.len...@derby.ac.uk>

t: 01332 593155



https://derby.academia.edu/peterlennox

https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Peter_Lennox



University of Derby,
Kedleston Road,
Derby,
DE22 1GB, UK


From: Sursound  on behalf of Augustine Leudar 

Sent: 17 August 2017 20:17:37
To: Surround Sound discussion group
Subject: Re: [Sursound] Sound Based Composition(surround)

Dont forget "interactive" and "gesture based" Phi

On 17 August 2017 at 19:06, Phi Shu  wrote:

> Just curious, why do you want to do a PhD at all? are you planning on
> being an academic?
>
> Also, you seem to be in a muddle with all the labels and text book
> definitions you are citing. The whole sound versus music thing (be it
> sonic arts, sound art, electroacoustic music, acousmatic music etc.
> etc.) forget all that nonsense, it's a trap. Follow that path and like
> it or not you will always be distracted by having to pander to either
> academic or 'art world' gatekeepers. All these silly little boxes
> people want to put things in are a distraction. Focus on what you want
> to say artistically, what you want to express, don't get wrapped up in
> trying to make it fit within a preexisting frame.
>
> Oh, and if you are bent on making a PhD proposal, stick "embodied" in
> there somewhere, it's still trendingand "immersive experience" is
> sexy now too, money being thrown at that
> <http://www.ahrc.ac.uk/funding/opportunities/current/
> research-and-partnership-development-call-for-the-next-
> generation-of-immersive-experiences/>
> .
>
> On Thu, Aug 17, 2017 at 1:40 PM, 霖の <951343...@qq.com> wrote:
>
> > Thank you very much :) And there are couple of things I'd like to say:
> > I agree with both of you and Thank you very much.. The proposal , I
> > don't know how specific should it be And one of the problem is
> > exactly what Augustine has mentioned, practice led to research. In
> > that case, the objects... is more like a train of thought rather
> > than just propose some problems for future research. I'm afraid that
> > will limit the creation as well. So.. how to write a decent proposal really 
> > confuse me.
> >
> >
> > About the term, sound-based composition. It is academic.. at first
> > time,
> I
> > used electroacoustics. However, as I hope to combine club electronic
> music
> > style with electroacoustic music, experiment music and so on...The
> purpose
> > is to have both aesthetic value and art value. Sound is a quite
> > potential sources and it is also the future of music, that's why I'm
> > not rejected
> to
> > use this term...For composition, as sound and electronic music is
> > quite different

Re: [Sursound] Sound Based Composition(surround)

[Augustine Leudar]

funny Peter - I am just working on interactive spatialisation tool that
incorporates haptic feedback to manipulate sounds in 3D space as well, you
use your hands to place and manipulate sounds in 3D space - but there are
sensors that allow you to feel the sounds as well - using tiny air jets

On 18 August 2017 at 10:57, Peter Lennox  wrote:

> I'm just publishing a paper - well, writing it - on multimodal spatial
> music. (and "immersive" crops up a lot in subjects' comments)
>
> Also, see: Nanayakkara, S. C. Enhancing Musical Experience for the
> Hearing-impaired using Visual and Haptic Feedback.
> Department of Electrical & Computer Engineering, National University of
> Singapore. PhD Thesis. 2006
>
> The point being that, whilst multimodal techniques may produce useful
> assistive technologies, we found that they can also be enjoyed by those
> without hearing impairment. The trick is to rethink what the constraints on
> composition actually are, if it's a new type of experience.
>
> Dr. Peter Lennox SFHEA
> Senior Lecturer in Perception
> College of Arts, Humanities and Education
> School of Arts
>
> e: p.len...@derby.ac.uk
> t: 01332 593155
>
> https://derby.academia.edu/peterlennox
> https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Peter_Lennox
>
> University of Derby,
> Kedleston Road,
> Derby,
> DE22 1GB, UK
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Sursound [mailto:sursound-boun...@music.vt.edu] On Behalf Of ??
> Sent: 18 August 2017 06:17
> To: Surround Sound discussion group 
> Subject: Re: [Sursound] Sound Based Composition(surround)
>
> Well, on compositional area, including audiovisual music composition, it
> still quite hard to create sth like "immersive experiences" or "multimodal
> perception".  However, imaginary experiences may created if appropriate
> sound sources and composing techniques has been referred.
>
>
>
>
> ------ Original ------
> From:  "Peter Lennox";;
> Date:  Fri, Aug 18, 2017 03:20 AM
> To:  "Surround Sound discussion group";
>
> Subject:  Re: [Sursound] Sound Based Composition(surround)
>
>
>
> ...and "extended mind", and "augmented perception", and "multimodal
> perception", along with "superadditive effects"
>
>
> Dr. Peter Lennox SFHEA
>
> Senior Lecturer in Perception
>
> College of Arts, Humanities and Education
>
> School of Arts
>
>
>
> e: p.len...@derby.ac.uk<mailto:p.len...@derby.ac.uk>
>
> t: 01332 593155
>
>
>
> https://derby.academia.edu/peterlennox
>
> https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Peter_Lennox
>
>
>
> University of Derby,
> Kedleston Road,
> Derby,
> DE22 1GB, UK
>
> 
> From: Sursound  on behalf of Augustine
> Leudar 
> Sent: 17 August 2017 20:17:37
> To: Surround Sound discussion group
> Subject: Re: [Sursound] Sound Based Composition(surround)
>
> Dont forget "interactive" and "gesture based" Phi
>
> On 17 August 2017 at 19:06, Phi Shu  wrote:
>
> > Just curious, why do you want to do a PhD at all? are you planning on
> > being an academic?
> >
> > Also, you seem to be in a muddle with all the labels and text book
> > definitions you are citing. The whole sound versus music thing (be it
> > sonic arts, sound art, electroacoustic music, acousmatic music etc.
> > etc.) forget all that nonsense, it's a trap. Follow that path and like
> > it or not you will always be distracted by having to pander to either
> > academic or 'art world' gatekeepers. All these silly little boxes
> > people want to put things in are a distraction. Focus on what you want
> > to say artistically, what you want to express, don't get wrapped up in
> > trying to make it fit within a preexisting frame.
> >
> > Oh, and if you are bent on making a PhD proposal, stick "embodied" in
> > there somewhere, it's still trendingand "immersive experience" is
> > sexy now too, money being thrown at that
> > <http://www.ahrc.ac.uk/funding/opportunities/current/
> > research-and-partnership-development-call-for-the-next-
> > generation-of-immersive-experiences/>
> > .
> >
> > On Thu, Aug 17, 2017 at 1:40 PM, 霖の <951343...@qq.com> wrote:
> >
> > > Thank you very much :) And there are couple of things I'd like to say:
> > > I agree with both of you and Thank you very much.. The proposal , I
> > > don't know how specific should it be And one of the problem is
> > > exactly what Augustine has 

Re: [Sursound] Sound Based Composition(surround)

[Peter Lennox]

See also "Creative Inhibition: how and why?"

A problem is that we have gradually moved to an insidious position where 
"knowledge" has to be expressed in language to be taken seriously. So even if 
one is talking about warm fuzzy subjectivity, one has to be able to discuss in 
hard-edged objective terms. I don't know if anyone ever did a PhD on: The 
parameters of "Nice" - that would be a challenge to get past the research 
degrees committee!

And this brings us to the kind of language that is commonly used in Art 
Galleries. Much of it looks like it has actually been written by those 
automatic bullshit generators (see: https://artybollocks.com/ , 
http://sebpearce.com/bullshit/ ; http://www.buzzwords4u.co.uk/ ; 
https://pdos.csail.mit.edu/archive/scigen/ )

Sorry - we just may have strayed from the surround path...

Dr. Peter Lennox SFHEA
Senior Lecturer in Perception
College of Arts, Humanities and Education
School of Arts

e: p.len...@derby.ac.uk
t: 01332 593155

https://derby.academia.edu/peterlennox
https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Peter_Lennox

University of Derby,
Kedleston Road,
Derby,
DE22 1GB, UK


-Original Message-
From: Sursound [mailto:sursound-boun...@music.vt.edu] On Behalf Of Augustine 
Leudar
Sent: 17 August 2017 21:53
To: Surround Sound discussion group 
Subject: Re: [Sursound] Sound Based Composition(surround)

I think you misunderstand what I am saying but it's ok.  Anyway you might want 
to look at Stanford. Some of their top academics described academia as a cancer 
for creativity :

http://news.stanford.edu/news/2009/november2/art-academia-debate-110409.html

I believe some PhDs now have almost no written content whatsoever their now. I 
think the whole concept of research having to be based on research questions is 
outdated - it makes sense for some fields but not really for art - in fact I 
think it hampers innovation. If  art and music seeks to express something that 
can't be expressed verbally - how can you base such activity on verbal research 
questions with out turning art into something dead and pretentious and utterly 
limited by verbal thought processes. The solution in the arts seems to have 
been to make those verbal though processes ridiculously convoluted as possible 
. Have fun with that one anyway and good luck.

On 17 August 2017 at 13:40, 霖の <951343...@qq.com> wrote:

> Thank you very much :) And there are couple of things I'd like to say:
> I agree with both of you and Thank you very much.. The proposal , I
> don't know how specific should it be And one of the problem is
> exactly what Augustine has mentioned, practice led to research. In
> that case, the objects... is more like a train of thought rather than
> just propose some problems for future research. I'm afraid that will
> limit the creation as well. So.. how to write a decent proposal really 
> confuse me.
>
>
> About the term, sound-based composition. It is academic.. at first
> time, I used electroacoustics. However, as I hope to combine club
> electronic music style with electroacoustic music, experiment music
> and so on...The purpose is to have both aesthetic value and art value.
> Sound is a quite potential sources and it is also the future of music,
> that's why I'm not rejected to use this term...For composition, as
> sound and electronic music is quite different from traditional music.
> Composers , always are audio engineer as well. And when we study sound
> composition, we also need to learn psychoacoustics so that we will
> know what we are doing exactly. Besides, combine club electronic means
> extract some approaches or ideas from it, and with principles, those
> sound works will be more humanization and interesting rather than
> serious all the time. There are many people have tried to find a more
> humanization way to present those art works, combination is one of a choice.
>
>
> About the visual cues, I've read some paper write by audiovisual artists.
> To them, audio cues and visual cues are oneness rather than one
> dominate another. What I referred  here is human always percept the
> world with all senses, even in dark room, they still keep using every
> senses which is intuitive. If artists use those principles to create
> sth special, that would be interesting and innovation. But indeed,
> sound always provided informations that visual cues cannot present.
> That's also a interesting point to be research.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ------ Original --
> From:  "Peter Lennox";;
> Date:  Thu, Aug 17, 2017 04:42 PM
> To:  "Surround Sound discussion group";
>
> Subject:  Re: [Sursound] Sound Based Composition(surround)
>
>
>
> The motion bounce illusion, where application of an audible transient
&

Re: [Sursound] Sound Based Composition(surround)

[Peter Lennox]

That's interesting - often idly wondered how to do that (these academics, eh?) 
- I don't know if sufficient control is feasible, but you might be able to 
modulate the output of the airjets with discernible frequencies (prob. up to 
2K, but could be higher)?

Dr. Peter Lennox SFHEA
Senior Lecturer in Perception
College of Arts, Humanities and Education
School of Arts

e: p.len...@derby.ac.uk
t: 01332 593155

https://derby.academia.edu/peterlennox
https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Peter_Lennox

University of Derby,
Kedleston Road,
Derby,
DE22 1GB, UK


-Original Message-
From: Sursound [mailto:sursound-boun...@music.vt.edu] On Behalf Of Augustine 
Leudar
Sent: 18 August 2017 11:03
To: Surround Sound discussion group 
Subject: Re: [Sursound] Sound Based Composition(surround)

funny Peter - I am just working on interactive spatialisation tool that 
incorporates haptic feedback to manipulate sounds in 3D space as well, you use 
your hands to place and manipulate sounds in 3D space - but there are sensors 
that allow you to feel the sounds as well - using tiny air jets

On 18 August 2017 at 10:57, Peter Lennox  wrote:

> I'm just publishing a paper - well, writing it - on multimodal spatial
> music. (and "immersive" crops up a lot in subjects' comments)
>
> Also, see: Nanayakkara, S. C. Enhancing Musical Experience for the
> Hearing-impaired using Visual and Haptic Feedback.
> Department of Electrical & Computer Engineering, National University
> of Singapore. PhD Thesis. 2006
>
> The point being that, whilst multimodal techniques may produce useful
> assistive technologies, we found that they can also be enjoyed by
> those without hearing impairment. The trick is to rethink what the
> constraints on composition actually are, if it's a new type of experience.
>
> Dr. Peter Lennox SFHEA
> Senior Lecturer in Perception
> College of Arts, Humanities and Education School of Arts
>
> e: p.len...@derby.ac.uk
> t: 01332 593155
>
> https://derby.academia.edu/peterlennox
> https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Peter_Lennox
>
> University of Derby,
> Kedleston Road,
> Derby,
> DE22 1GB, UK
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Sursound [mailto:sursound-boun...@music.vt.edu] On Behalf Of ??
> Sent: 18 August 2017 06:17
> To: Surround Sound discussion group 
> Subject: Re: [Sursound] Sound Based Composition(surround)
>
> Well, on compositional area, including audiovisual music composition,
> it still quite hard to create sth like "immersive experiences" or
> "multimodal perception".  However, imaginary experiences may created
> if appropriate sound sources and composing techniques has been referred.
>
>
>
>
> ---------- Original --
> From:  "Peter Lennox";;
> Date:  Fri, Aug 18, 2017 03:20 AM
> To:  "Surround Sound discussion group";
>
> Subject:  Re: [Sursound] Sound Based Composition(surround)
>
>
>
> ...and "extended mind", and "augmented perception", and "multimodal
> perception", along with "superadditive effects"
>
>
> Dr. Peter Lennox SFHEA
>
> Senior Lecturer in Perception
>
> College of Arts, Humanities and Education
>
> School of Arts
>
>
>
> e: p.len...@derby.ac.uk<mailto:p.len...@derby.ac.uk>
>
> t: 01332 593155
>
>
>
> https://derby.academia.edu/peterlennox
>
> https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Peter_Lennox
>
>
>
> University of Derby,
> Kedleston Road,
> Derby,
> DE22 1GB, UK
>
> 
> From: Sursound  on behalf of Augustine
> Leudar 
> Sent: 17 August 2017 20:17:37
> To: Surround Sound discussion group
> Subject: Re: [Sursound] Sound Based Composition(surround)
>
> Dont forget "interactive" and "gesture based" Phi
>
> On 17 August 2017 at 19:06, Phi Shu  wrote:
>
> > Just curious, why do you want to do a PhD at all? are you planning
> > on being an academic?
> >
> > Also, you seem to be in a muddle with all the labels and text book
> > definitions you are citing. The whole sound versus music thing (be
> > it sonic arts, sound art, electroacoustic music, acousmatic music etc.
> > etc.) forget all that nonsense, it's a trap. Follow that path and
> > like it or not you will always be distracted by having to pander to
> > either academic or 'art world' gatekeepers. All these silly little
> > boxes people want to put things in are a distraction. Focus on what
> > you want to say artistically, what you want to express, don't get
> > wrapped up in trying to make it fit within a preexisting frame.
> >
> > Oh, and if you are ben

Re: [Sursound] Sound Based Composition(surround)

[Augustine Leudar]

Loving your output here Peter I think part of the problem is when they
incorporated the arts into universities they tried to impose the same
methodologies from sciences and humanities . I wonder how mathematicians
get round the limitations of human language for PhDs of course our society
respects them more than artists so the are probably cut  lot more slack.
Arts funding often funds those with academic qualifications so Thus the
gallery connection and plethora of shallow conceptual crap. OK enough of my
hypocrasy. Anyway There's a controller that has an airpad combined with the
leap - combined with the hololense is I interesting.  Personally I think
integrated reality is the way forward and I'm working hard on making it a
new buzzword.

On Friday, 18 August 2017, Peter Lennox  wrote:

> That's interesting - often idly wondered how to do that (these academics,
> eh?) - I don't know if sufficient control is feasible, but you might be
> able to modulate the output of the airjets with discernible frequencies
> (prob. up to 2K, but could be higher)?
>
> Dr. Peter Lennox SFHEA
> Senior Lecturer in Perception
> College of Arts, Humanities and Education
> School of Arts
>
> e: p.len...@derby.ac.uk 
> t: 01332 593155
>
> https://derby.academia.edu/peterlennox
> https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Peter_Lennox
>
> University of Derby,
> Kedleston Road,
> Derby,
> DE22 1GB, UK
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Sursound [mailto:sursound-boun...@music.vt.edu ] On
> Behalf Of Augustine Leudar
> Sent: 18 August 2017 11:03
> To: Surround Sound discussion group >
> Subject: Re: [Sursound] Sound Based Composition(surround)
>
> funny Peter - I am just working on interactive spatialisation tool that
> incorporates haptic feedback to manipulate sounds in 3D space as well, you
> use your hands to place and manipulate sounds in 3D space - but there are
> sensors that allow you to feel the sounds as well - using tiny air jets
>
> On 18 August 2017 at 10:57, Peter Lennox  > wrote:
>
> > I'm just publishing a paper - well, writing it - on multimodal spatial
> > music. (and "immersive" crops up a lot in subjects' comments)
> >
> > Also, see: Nanayakkara, S. C. Enhancing Musical Experience for the
> > Hearing-impaired using Visual and Haptic Feedback.
> > Department of Electrical & Computer Engineering, National University
> > of Singapore. PhD Thesis. 2006
> >
> > The point being that, whilst multimodal techniques may produce useful
> > assistive technologies, we found that they can also be enjoyed by
> > those without hearing impairment. The trick is to rethink what the
> > constraints on composition actually are, if it's a new type of
> experience.
> >
> > Dr. Peter Lennox SFHEA
> > Senior Lecturer in Perception
> > College of Arts, Humanities and Education School of Arts
> >
> > e: p.len...@derby.ac.uk 
> > t: 01332 593155
> >
> > https://derby.academia.edu/peterlennox
> > https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Peter_Lennox
> >
> > University of Derby,
> > Kedleston Road,
> > Derby,
> > DE22 1GB, UK
> >
> > -Original Message-
> > From: Sursound [mailto:sursound-boun...@music.vt.edu ] On
> Behalf Of ??
> > Sent: 18 August 2017 06:17
> > To: Surround Sound discussion group  >
> > Subject: Re: [Sursound] Sound Based Composition(surround)
> >
> > Well, on compositional area, including audiovisual music composition,
> > it still quite hard to create sth like "immersive experiences" or
> > "multimodal perception".  However, imaginary experiences may created
> > if appropriate sound sources and composing techniques has been referred.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > -- Original --
> > From:  "Peter Lennox";>;
> > Date:  Fri, Aug 18, 2017 03:20 AM
> > To:  "Surround Sound discussion group" >;
> >
> > Subject:  Re: [Sursound] Sound Based Composition(surround)
> >
> >
> >
> > ...and "extended mind", and "augmented perception", and "multimodal
> > perception", along with "superadditive effects"
> >
> >
> > Dr. Peter Lennox SFHEA
> >
> > Senior Lecturer in Perception
> >
> > College of Arts, Humanities and Education
> >
> > School of Arts
> >
> >
> >
> > e: p.len...@derby.ac.uk <mailto:p.len...@derby.ac.uk
> >
> >
> > t: 01332 593155
> >
> >
> >
> > https://derby.academia.edu/peterlennox
> >
> > https://ww

Re: [Sursound] Sound Based Composition(surround)

[Phi Shu]

true that International Art English
<https://www.canopycanopycanopy.com/contents/international_art_english>
(IAE) is problematic, at the same time there is an awful lot of
sound/music/whatever based work that suffers from over dependence on
spectacle and technical contrivance, a lot it is really banal, it has
nothing to say about anything really (beyond: "isn't this a really
interesting sound" - and often it's not).

speaking as someone who jumped through the practice based PhD loop, I hated
the writing, but a PhD without some form of
intellectual/philosophical/conceptual narrative is simply not a PhD in my
opinion, it shouldn't be awarded. A portfolio featuring a selection of
random, disparate, creative works is not a PhD; equally one should not need
a PhD to convince gatekeepers that one is qualified to produce interesting
and engaging art; or that art bereft of anything interesting and engaging
is somehow acceptable because the person who produced it has a PhD. Sure,
what with the horrible funding climate and aggressive neoliberal politics
we are dealing with, I can see why so many professional artists are now
looking to retreat to academia, but is that a good reason to do a PhD? and
down the line where are all the teaching hours going to come from? Then
there's the practice led research versus research led practice debate,
which is more valid in the context of doing a PhD? Arguably the latter.

As for the creation of "immersive" experiences, do we need them? aren't we
already up to our necks in Baudillarian hyerpreality, Donal Trump is
president the USA ffs. A recent provocation
<http://sonicfield.org/2017/08/against-immersion/> sums this up.

Oh, also, Michael Edwards on "Why I am leaving UK academia
<https://www.timeshighereducation.com/blog/uk-academia-has-gone-hell-handcart-and-i-quit>"
should be required reading for anyone thinking of being an artist/composer
based in academia. Which reminds me, I was at an event a few years back,
where a well know UK academic composer - who was about to retire - gave a
talk in which he advised against doing a PhD if composition is something
one wishes to make a future out of it - because the working environment has
become that horrible.

If you want job security, become an administrator.

On Fri, Aug 18, 2017 at 11:07 AM, Peter Lennox  wrote:

> See also "Creative Inhibition: how and why?"
>
> A problem is that we have gradually moved to an insidious position where
> "knowledge" has to be expressed in language to be taken seriously. So even
> if one is talking about warm fuzzy subjectivity, one has to be able to
> discuss in hard-edged objective terms. I don't know if anyone ever did a
> PhD on: The parameters of "Nice" - that would be a challenge to get past
> the research degrees committee!
>
> And this brings us to the kind of language that is commonly used in Art
> Galleries. Much of it looks like it has actually been written by those
> automatic bullshit generators (see: https://artybollocks.com/ ,
> http://sebpearce.com/bullshit/ ; http://www.buzzwords4u.co.uk/ ;
> https://pdos.csail.mit.edu/archive/scigen/ )
>
> Sorry - we just may have strayed from the surround path...
>
> Dr. Peter Lennox SFHEA
> Senior Lecturer in Perception
> College of Arts, Humanities and Education
> School of Arts
>
> e: p.len...@derby.ac.uk
> t: 01332 593155
>
> https://derby.academia.edu/peterlennox
> https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Peter_Lennox
>
> University of Derby,
> Kedleston Road,
> Derby,
> DE22 1GB, UK
>
>
> -----Original Message-
> From: Sursound [mailto:sursound-boun...@music.vt.edu] On Behalf Of
> Augustine Leudar
> Sent: 17 August 2017 21:53
> To: Surround Sound discussion group 
> Subject: Re: [Sursound] Sound Based Composition(surround)
>
> I think you misunderstand what I am saying but it's ok.  Anyway you might
> want to look at Stanford. Some of their top academics described academia as
> a cancer for creativity :
>
> http://news.stanford.edu/news/2009/november2/art-academia-
> debate-110409.html
>
> I believe some PhDs now have almost no written content whatsoever their
> now. I think the whole concept of research having to be based on research
> questions is outdated - it makes sense for some fields but not really for
> art - in fact I think it hampers innovation. If  art and music seeks to
> express something that can't be expressed verbally - how can you base such
> activity on verbal research questions with out turning art into something
> dead and pretentious and utterly limited by verbal thought processes. The
> solution in the arts seems to have been to make those verbal though
> processes ridiculously convoluted as possible . Have fun with that one
> anyway 

Re: [Sursound] Sound Based Composition(surround)

[Peter Lennox]

Yes - academia generally is in a strange place. - I used to love it - I 
remember being asked by someone I know why I worked for that kind of money (he 
claimed more for transport against his tax bill than I grossed) - I said 
"because I get paid to think" - he said fair enough, I get that.
But now, any thinking is strictly on my own time.
The problem is something like this: - the original reason for something coming 
into existence is rarely identical to the reason for continuing to exist.

So, The word "university" is derived from the Latin universitas magistrorum et 
scholarium, which roughly means "community of teachers and scholars." 
(Wikipedia) - but in fact, scholarship is now quite difficult to find the time 
and energy for, teaching is defined by the measurement methods (to the 
exclusion of all else) and community happens once a year at a conference.
In fact, there are so many competing vested interests ("stakeholders") that the 
business (extremely big business) has become 'weaponised'
In the midst of all this, the footsoldiers in the trenches have little 
influence on what universities should be doing, what academia is for. And when 
did we last hear the word "wisdom"?

So - the only reasons I can think of to study at PhD level are personal ones: 
the knowledge (and possibly even a glimmer of wisdom) itself - the joy of 
discovering something new, the conviction that one didn't simply mark time 
through life.
I would NOT advocate PhD level study as some passport to something else (as 
with any academic qualification, actually - only matters if you haven't got it, 
but doesn't guarantee anything whatsoever).
In other words, it's perhaps handy to think of a PhD as essentially an amateur 
(as in 'for the love of..') thing. As such, the whole thing, from proposal to 
methodology to types of conclusion, should, first and foremost, please oneself. 
If others happen to like it, that's a bonus.
Cheers
ppl

Dr. Peter Lennox SFHEA
Senior Lecturer in Perception
College of Arts, Humanities and Education
School of Arts

e: p.len...@derby.ac.uk
t: 01332 593155

https://derby.academia.edu/peterlennox
https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Peter_Lennox

University of Derby,
Kedleston Road,
Derby,
DE22 1GB, UK


-Original Message-
From: Sursound [mailto:sursound-boun...@music.vt.edu] On Behalf Of Phi Shu
Sent: 18 August 2017 13:02
To: Surround Sound discussion group 
Subject: Re: [Sursound] Sound Based Composition(surround)

true that International Art English
<https://www.canopycanopycanopy.com/contents/international_art_english>
(IAE) is problematic, at the same time there is an awful lot of 
sound/music/whatever based work that suffers from over dependence on spectacle 
and technical contrivance, a lot it is really banal, it has nothing to say 
about anything really (beyond: "isn't this a really interesting sound" - and 
often it's not).

speaking as someone who jumped through the practice based PhD loop, I hated the 
writing, but a PhD without some form of intellectual/philosophical/conceptual 
narrative is simply not a PhD in my opinion, it shouldn't be awarded. A 
portfolio featuring a selection of random, disparate, creative works is not a 
PhD; equally one should not need a PhD to convince gatekeepers that one is 
qualified to produce interesting and engaging art; or that art bereft of 
anything interesting and engaging is somehow acceptable because the person who 
produced it has a PhD. Sure, what with the horrible funding climate and 
aggressive neoliberal politics we are dealing with, I can see why so many 
professional artists are now looking to retreat to academia, but is that a good 
reason to do a PhD? and down the line where are all the teaching hours going to 
come from? Then there's the practice led research versus research led practice 
debate, which is more valid in the context of doing a PhD? Arguably the latter.

As for the creation of "immersive" experiences, do we need them? aren't we 
already up to our necks in Baudillarian hyerpreality, Donal Trump is president 
the USA ffs. A recent provocation 
<http://sonicfield.org/2017/08/against-immersion/> sums this up.

Oh, also, Michael Edwards on "Why I am leaving UK academia 
<https://www.timeshighereducation.com/blog/uk-academia-has-gone-hell-handcart-and-i-quit>"
should be required reading for anyone thinking of being an artist/composer 
based in academia. Which reminds me, I was at an event a few years back, where 
a well know UK academic composer - who was about to retire - gave a talk in 
which he advised against doing a PhD if composition is something one wishes to 
make a future out of it - because the working environment has become that 
horrible.

If you want job security, become an administrator.

On Fri, Aug 18, 2017 at 11:07 AM, Peter Lennox  wrote:

>

Re: [Sursound] Sound Based Composition(surround)

[Augustine Leudar]

andom, disparate, creative works is not a PhD; equally one should not need
> a PhD to convince gatekeepers that one is qualified to produce interesting
> and engaging art; or that art bereft of anything interesting and engaging
> is somehow acceptable because the person who produced it has a PhD. Sure,
> what with the horrible funding climate and aggressive neoliberal politics
> we are dealing with, I can see why so many professional artists are now
> looking to retreat to academia, but is that a good reason to do a PhD? and
> down the line where are all the teaching hours going to come from? Then
> there's the practice led research versus research led practice debate,
> which is more valid in the context of doing a PhD? Arguably the latter.
>
> As for the creation of "immersive" experiences, do we need them? aren't we
> already up to our necks in Baudillarian hyerpreality, Donal Trump is
> president the USA ffs. A recent provocation
> <http://sonicfield.org/2017/08/against-immersion/> sums this up.
>
> Oh, also, Michael Edwards on "Why I am leaving UK academia
> <https://www.timeshighereducation.com/blog/uk-academia-has-gone-hell-
> handcart-and-i-quit>"
> should be required reading for anyone thinking of being an artist/composer
> based in academia. Which reminds me, I was at an event a few years back,
> where a well know UK academic composer - who was about to retire - gave a
> talk in which he advised against doing a PhD if composition is something
> one wishes to make a future out of it - because the working environment has
> become that horrible.
>
> If you want job security, become an administrator.
>
> On Fri, Aug 18, 2017 at 11:07 AM, Peter Lennox 
> wrote:
>
> > See also "Creative Inhibition: how and why?"
> >
> > A problem is that we have gradually moved to an insidious position where
> > "knowledge" has to be expressed in language to be taken seriously. So
> even
> > if one is talking about warm fuzzy subjectivity, one has to be able to
> > discuss in hard-edged objective terms. I don't know if anyone ever did a
> > PhD on: The parameters of "Nice" - that would be a challenge to get past
> > the research degrees committee!
> >
> > And this brings us to the kind of language that is commonly used in Art
> > Galleries. Much of it looks like it has actually been written by those
> > automatic bullshit generators (see: https://artybollocks.com/ ,
> > http://sebpearce.com/bullshit/ ; http://www.buzzwords4u.co.uk/ ;
> > https://pdos.csail.mit.edu/archive/scigen/ )
> >
> > Sorry - we just may have strayed from the surround path...
> >
> > Dr. Peter Lennox SFHEA
> > Senior Lecturer in Perception
> > College of Arts, Humanities and Education
> > School of Arts
> >
> > e: p.len...@derby.ac.uk
> > t: 01332 593155
> >
> > https://derby.academia.edu/peterlennox
> > https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Peter_Lennox
> >
> > University of Derby,
> > Kedleston Road,
> > Derby,
> > DE22 1GB, UK
> >
> >
> > -Original Message-
> > From: Sursound [mailto:sursound-boun...@music.vt.edu] On Behalf Of
> > Augustine Leudar
> > Sent: 17 August 2017 21:53
> > To: Surround Sound discussion group 
> > Subject: Re: [Sursound] Sound Based Composition(surround)
> >
> > I think you misunderstand what I am saying but it's ok.  Anyway you might
> > want to look at Stanford. Some of their top academics described academia
> as
> > a cancer for creativity :
> >
> > http://news.stanford.edu/news/2009/november2/art-academia-
> > debate-110409.html
> >
> > I believe some PhDs now have almost no written content whatsoever their
> > now. I think the whole concept of research having to be based on research
> > questions is outdated - it makes sense for some fields but not really for
> > art - in fact I think it hampers innovation. If  art and music seeks to
> > express something that can't be expressed verbally - how can you base
> such
> > activity on verbal research questions with out turning art into something
> > dead and pretentious and utterly limited by verbal thought processes. The
> > solution in the arts seems to have been to make those verbal though
> > processes ridiculously convoluted as possible . Have fun with that one
> > anyway and good luck.
> >
> > On 17 August 2017 at 13:40, 霖の <951343...@qq.com> wrote:
> >
> > > Thank you very much :) And there are couple of things I'd like to say:
> > > I agree with both of you and Thank you very much.. The

Re: [Sursound] Sound Based Composition(surround)

[Augustine Leudar]

very well said Peter. Right enough of this - I'm off to make some sound
based music :)

On 18 August 2017 at 13:47, Peter Lennox  wrote:

> Yes - academia generally is in a strange place. - I used to love it - I
> remember being asked by someone I know why I worked for that kind of money
> (he claimed more for transport against his tax bill than I grossed) - I
> said "because I get paid to think" - he said fair enough, I get that.
> But now, any thinking is strictly on my own time.
> The problem is something like this: - the original reason for something
> coming into existence is rarely identical to the reason for continuing to
> exist.
>
> So, The word "university" is derived from the Latin universitas
> magistrorum et scholarium, which roughly means "community of teachers and
> scholars." (Wikipedia) - but in fact, scholarship is now quite difficult to
> find the time and energy for, teaching is defined by the measurement
> methods (to the exclusion of all else) and community happens once a year at
> a conference.
> In fact, there are so many competing vested interests ("stakeholders")
> that the business (extremely big business) has become 'weaponised'
> In the midst of all this, the footsoldiers in the trenches have little
> influence on what universities should be doing, what academia is for. And
> when did we last hear the word "wisdom"?
>
> So - the only reasons I can think of to study at PhD level are personal
> ones: the knowledge (and possibly even a glimmer of wisdom) itself - the
> joy of discovering something new, the conviction that one didn't simply
> mark time through life.
> I would NOT advocate PhD level study as some passport to something else
> (as with any academic qualification, actually - only matters if you haven't
> got it, but doesn't guarantee anything whatsoever).
> In other words, it's perhaps handy to think of a PhD as essentially an
> amateur (as in 'for the love of..') thing. As such, the whole thing, from
> proposal to methodology to types of conclusion, should, first and foremost,
> please oneself. If others happen to like it, that's a bonus.
> Cheers
> ppl
>
> Dr. Peter Lennox SFHEA
> Senior Lecturer in Perception
> College of Arts, Humanities and Education
> School of Arts
>
> e: p.len...@derby.ac.uk
> t: 01332 593155
>
> https://derby.academia.edu/peterlennox
> https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Peter_Lennox
>
> University of Derby,
> Kedleston Road,
> Derby,
> DE22 1GB, UK
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Sursound [mailto:sursound-boun...@music.vt.edu] On Behalf Of Phi Shu
> Sent: 18 August 2017 13:02
> To: Surround Sound discussion group 
> Subject: Re: [Sursound] Sound Based Composition(surround)
>
> true that International Art English
> <https://www.canopycanopycanopy.com/contents/international_art_english>
> (IAE) is problematic, at the same time there is an awful lot of
> sound/music/whatever based work that suffers from over dependence on
> spectacle and technical contrivance, a lot it is really banal, it has
> nothing to say about anything really (beyond: "isn't this a really
> interesting sound" - and often it's not).
>
> speaking as someone who jumped through the practice based PhD loop, I
> hated the writing, but a PhD without some form of
> intellectual/philosophical/conceptual narrative is simply not a PhD in my
> opinion, it shouldn't be awarded. A portfolio featuring a selection of
> random, disparate, creative works is not a PhD; equally one should not need
> a PhD to convince gatekeepers that one is qualified to produce interesting
> and engaging art; or that art bereft of anything interesting and engaging
> is somehow acceptable because the person who produced it has a PhD. Sure,
> what with the horrible funding climate and aggressive neoliberal politics
> we are dealing with, I can see why so many professional artists are now
> looking to retreat to academia, but is that a good reason to do a PhD? and
> down the line where are all the teaching hours going to come from? Then
> there's the practice led research versus research led practice debate,
> which is more valid in the context of doing a PhD? Arguably the latter.
>
> As for the creation of "immersive" experiences, do we need them? aren't we
> already up to our necks in Baudillarian hyerpreality, Donal Trump is
> president the USA ffs. A recent provocation <http://sonicfield.org/2017/
> 08/against-immersion/> sums this up.
>
> Oh, also, Michael Edwards on "Why I am leaving UK academia <https://www.
> timeshighereducation.com/blog/uk-academia-has-gone-hell-
> h

Re: [Sursound] Sound Based Composition(surround)

[Peter Lennox]

Hang on - we're having an academic discussion here - you can't just charge off 
and go and actually do something! ;-)

Dr. Peter Lennox SFHEA
Senior Lecturer in Perception
College of Arts, Humanities and Education
School of Arts

e: p.len...@derby.ac.uk
t: 01332 593155

https://derby.academia.edu/peterlennox
https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Peter_Lennox

University of Derby,
Kedleston Road,
Derby,
DE22 1GB, UK


-Original Message-
From: Sursound [mailto:sursound-boun...@music.vt.edu] On Behalf Of Augustine 
Leudar
Sent: 18 August 2017 13:59
To: Surround Sound discussion group 
Subject: Re: [Sursound] Sound Based Composition(surround)

very well said Peter. Right enough of this - I'm off to make some sound based 
music :)

On 18 August 2017 at 13:47, Peter Lennox  wrote:

> Yes - academia generally is in a strange place. - I used to love it -
> I remember being asked by someone I know why I worked for that kind of
> money (he claimed more for transport against his tax bill than I
> grossed) - I said "because I get paid to think" - he said fair enough, I get 
> that.
> But now, any thinking is strictly on my own time.
> The problem is something like this: - the original reason for
> something coming into existence is rarely identical to the reason for
> continuing to exist.
>
> So, The word "university" is derived from the Latin universitas
> magistrorum et scholarium, which roughly means "community of teachers
> and scholars." (Wikipedia) - but in fact, scholarship is now quite
> difficult to find the time and energy for, teaching is defined by the
> measurement methods (to the exclusion of all else) and community
> happens once a year at a conference.
> In fact, there are so many competing vested interests ("stakeholders")
> that the business (extremely big business) has become 'weaponised'
> In the midst of all this, the footsoldiers in the trenches have little
> influence on what universities should be doing, what academia is for.
> And when did we last hear the word "wisdom"?
>
> So - the only reasons I can think of to study at PhD level are
> personal
> ones: the knowledge (and possibly even a glimmer of wisdom) itself -
> the joy of discovering something new, the conviction that one didn't
> simply mark time through life.
> I would NOT advocate PhD level study as some passport to something
> else (as with any academic qualification, actually - only matters if
> you haven't got it, but doesn't guarantee anything whatsoever).
> In other words, it's perhaps handy to think of a PhD as essentially an
> amateur (as in 'for the love of..') thing. As such, the whole thing,
> from proposal to methodology to types of conclusion, should, first and
> foremost, please oneself. If others happen to like it, that's a bonus.
> Cheers
> ppl
>
> Dr. Peter Lennox SFHEA
> Senior Lecturer in Perception
> College of Arts, Humanities and Education School of Arts
>
> e: p.len...@derby.ac.uk
> t: 01332 593155
>
> https://derby.academia.edu/peterlennox
> https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Peter_Lennox
>
> University of Derby,
> Kedleston Road,
> Derby,
> DE22 1GB, UK
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Sursound [mailto:sursound-boun...@music.vt.edu] On Behalf Of Phi
> Shu
> Sent: 18 August 2017 13:02
> To: Surround Sound discussion group 
> Subject: Re: [Sursound] Sound Based Composition(surround)
>
> true that International Art English
> <https://www.canopycanopycanopy.com/contents/international_art_english
> >
> (IAE) is problematic, at the same time there is an awful lot of
> sound/music/whatever based work that suffers from over dependence on
> spectacle and technical contrivance, a lot it is really banal, it has
> nothing to say about anything really (beyond: "isn't this a really
> interesting sound" - and often it's not).
>
> speaking as someone who jumped through the practice based PhD loop, I
> hated the writing, but a PhD without some form of
> intellectual/philosophical/conceptual narrative is simply not a PhD in
> my opinion, it shouldn't be awarded. A portfolio featuring a selection
> of random, disparate, creative works is not a PhD; equally one should
> not need a PhD to convince gatekeepers that one is qualified to
> produce interesting and engaging art; or that art bereft of anything
> interesting and engaging is somehow acceptable because the person who
> produced it has a PhD. Sure, what with the horrible funding climate
> and aggressive neoliberal politics we are dealing with, I can see why
> so many professional artists are now looking to retreat to academia,
> but is that a good reason to do a PhD? and down th

Re: [Sursound] Sound Based Composition(surround)

[Augustine Leudar]

its just so much better than the chocolate based music I was making before
Peter - used to really clog up my ears. Right seriously now - I'm outta
here !

On 18 August 2017 at 14:04, Peter Lennox  wrote:

> Hang on - we're having an academic discussion here - you can't just charge
> off and go and actually do something! ;-)
>
> Dr. Peter Lennox SFHEA
> Senior Lecturer in Perception
> College of Arts, Humanities and Education
> School of Arts
>
> e: p.len...@derby.ac.uk
> t: 01332 593155
>
> https://derby.academia.edu/peterlennox
> https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Peter_Lennox
>
> University of Derby,
> Kedleston Road,
> Derby,
> DE22 1GB, UK
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Sursound [mailto:sursound-boun...@music.vt.edu] On Behalf Of
> Augustine Leudar
> Sent: 18 August 2017 13:59
> To: Surround Sound discussion group 
> Subject: Re: [Sursound] Sound Based Composition(surround)
>
> very well said Peter. Right enough of this - I'm off to make some sound
> based music :)
>
> On 18 August 2017 at 13:47, Peter Lennox  wrote:
>
> > Yes - academia generally is in a strange place. - I used to love it -
> > I remember being asked by someone I know why I worked for that kind of
> > money (he claimed more for transport against his tax bill than I
> > grossed) - I said "because I get paid to think" - he said fair enough, I
> get that.
> > But now, any thinking is strictly on my own time.
> > The problem is something like this: - the original reason for
> > something coming into existence is rarely identical to the reason for
> > continuing to exist.
> >
> > So, The word "university" is derived from the Latin universitas
> > magistrorum et scholarium, which roughly means "community of teachers
> > and scholars." (Wikipedia) - but in fact, scholarship is now quite
> > difficult to find the time and energy for, teaching is defined by the
> > measurement methods (to the exclusion of all else) and community
> > happens once a year at a conference.
> > In fact, there are so many competing vested interests ("stakeholders")
> > that the business (extremely big business) has become 'weaponised'
> > In the midst of all this, the footsoldiers in the trenches have little
> > influence on what universities should be doing, what academia is for.
> > And when did we last hear the word "wisdom"?
> >
> > So - the only reasons I can think of to study at PhD level are
> > personal
> > ones: the knowledge (and possibly even a glimmer of wisdom) itself -
> > the joy of discovering something new, the conviction that one didn't
> > simply mark time through life.
> > I would NOT advocate PhD level study as some passport to something
> > else (as with any academic qualification, actually - only matters if
> > you haven't got it, but doesn't guarantee anything whatsoever).
> > In other words, it's perhaps handy to think of a PhD as essentially an
> > amateur (as in 'for the love of..') thing. As such, the whole thing,
> > from proposal to methodology to types of conclusion, should, first and
> > foremost, please oneself. If others happen to like it, that's a bonus.
> > Cheers
> > ppl
> >
> > Dr. Peter Lennox SFHEA
> > Senior Lecturer in Perception
> > College of Arts, Humanities and Education School of Arts
> >
> > e: p.len...@derby.ac.uk
> > t: 01332 593155
> >
> > https://derby.academia.edu/peterlennox
> > https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Peter_Lennox
> >
> > University of Derby,
> > Kedleston Road,
> > Derby,
> > DE22 1GB, UK
> >
> >
> > -Original Message-
> > From: Sursound [mailto:sursound-boun...@music.vt.edu] On Behalf Of Phi
> > Shu
> > Sent: 18 August 2017 13:02
> > To: Surround Sound discussion group 
> > Subject: Re: [Sursound] Sound Based Composition(surround)
> >
> > true that International Art English
> > <https://www.canopycanopycanopy.com/contents/international_art_english
> > >
> > (IAE) is problematic, at the same time there is an awful lot of
> > sound/music/whatever based work that suffers from over dependence on
> > spectacle and technical contrivance, a lot it is really banal, it has
> > nothing to say about anything really (beyond: "isn't this a really
> > interesting sound" - and often it's not).
> >
> > speaking as someone who jumped through the practice based PhD loop, I
> > hated the writing, but a PhD without some form of
> > intellectu

Re: [Sursound] Sound Based Composition(surround)

[Peter Lennox]

As far as having a well-developed question, see 
http://www.weizmann.ac.il/mcb/UriAlon/sites/mcb.UriAlon/files/uploads/medawar.pdf
  - "is the scientific paper a fraud?" - Medawar (along with thinkers like 
Popper) argues that the having of an idea, or the formulation of a hypothesis 
isn't itself actually scientific - inspiration is one thing, then 
scientifically testing it is another. But there is an inexorable pressure on us 
to pretend we knew what we were doing all along - and began with a 
well-conditioned problem ("research question") which we deductively tested to 
destruction.
But a lot of the time, the original question was something like "what happens 
if I poke this?"
Einstein (supposedly) said "...if we knew what it was we were doing, we 
wouldn't call it research"

Dr. Peter Lennox SFHEA
Senior Lecturer in Perception
College of Arts, Humanities and Education
School of Arts

e: p.len...@derby.ac.uk
t: 01332 593155

https://derby.academia.edu/peterlennox
https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Peter_Lennox

University of Derby,
Kedleston Road,
Derby,
DE22 1GB, UK


-Original Message-
From: Sursound [mailto:sursound-boun...@music.vt.edu] On Behalf Of Augustine 
Leudar
Sent: 18 August 2017 13:54
To: Surround Sound discussion group 
Subject: Re: [Sursound] Sound Based Composition(surround)

I actually quite enjoyed the writing ironically and I have high regard for the 
goals and principles of scholarship. I believe a thorough knowledge of whats 
been done before (lit review) referencing etc are all admirable and essential.  
However I do not agree with you that research needs to have a written 
conceptual framework  in order to be considered  research - this is a circular 
argument that I have heard many times - however I do no think this should 
define what a research is. It refers to a method imported from science and 
philosophy - have a question - experiment or argue to answer that question - 
but I do not believe such a focussed approach produces innovation and new 
discoveries in the arts - in fact historically it wasn't .My PhD was 
multidicplinary -in science and art.  Ironically many people I know in the 
sciences said the actual discoveries they made in their research had nothing to 
do with their research questions but were accidental observations they made 
along the way - yet in the arts I found people far more dogmatic about"trying 
to stay focussed" , almost as if the arts were desperately trying to justify 
its position in academies. I found the people in the labs to be vibrant and 
creative - whereas in the arts everyone was trying to take themselves so 
seriously. The actual geniuses I met in the sciences never tried to "act smart" 
they were usually very down to earth - in the arts . welloften 
desperate to show how clever they were with their thesaurus always on hand.
 I would argue the fundamental goal of the research is to add to the field of 
human knowledge, to explore new areas to create things that haven't been done 
before (not necessarily new technologies)  - to conduct research. I am aware of 
plenty of PhD's that have a perfectly worded "conceptual framework" but add 
very very little if anything to the field of human knowledge but  split hairs 
over and over again in order to feign the appearance of breaking new ground. On 
the other hand I knew some absolute geniuses who came up with incredible 
original work - but they dropped out as they were hopeless at writing. So is 
the goal of artistic research to create incredible innovative new artforms that 
have never been done before, works of art to rival the great classics of the 
past - or is it to provide a tight conceptual framework. If research is always 
restricted to a tight cohesive goal focussed on one outcome and avenue of 
investigation only - many other avenues of discovery and many modern inventions 
would never have been made.

No-one would deny that many of the greatest artists of our time made huge 
progress and developments in the arts - but often would write nothing at all 
about their work. They were also conducting research - I hold that we need to 
reapraise our approach to the arts in academia and it seems that whilst I am in 
a minority - there are some at least that hold the same views . Otherwise we 
will be selecting for people who are good at writing academese rather than 
actually creating innovative artwork - and of course once they reach positions 
of power they will hold that this is the only real way to conduct research and 
they will only open the gates to those that think like them and that talk like 
them. Its a self perpetuating monster and its a monster the public will not 
fund forever - thus the sudden lurch towards making contacts with industry in 
ats academies.. There of course exceptional people in academia capable of  both 
writing and creating fantastic artwork and 

Re: [Sursound] Sound Based Composition(surround)

[Peter Lennox]

bye

Dr. Peter Lennox SFHEA
Senior Lecturer in Perception
College of Arts, Humanities and Education
School of Arts

e: p.len...@derby.ac.uk
t: 01332 593155

https://derby.academia.edu/peterlennox
https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Peter_Lennox

University of Derby,
Kedleston Road,
Derby,
DE22 1GB, UK


-Original Message-
From: Sursound [mailto:sursound-boun...@music.vt.edu] On Behalf Of Augustine 
Leudar
Sent: 18 August 2017 14:08
To: Surround Sound discussion group 
Subject: Re: [Sursound] Sound Based Composition(surround)

its just so much better than the chocolate based music I was making before 
Peter - used to really clog up my ears. Right seriously now - I'm outta here !

On 18 August 2017 at 14:04, Peter Lennox  wrote:

> Hang on - we're having an academic discussion here - you can't just
> charge off and go and actually do something! ;-)
>
> Dr. Peter Lennox SFHEA
> Senior Lecturer in Perception
> College of Arts, Humanities and Education School of Arts
>
> e: p.len...@derby.ac.uk
> t: 01332 593155
>
> https://derby.academia.edu/peterlennox
> https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Peter_Lennox
>
> University of Derby,
> Kedleston Road,
> Derby,
> DE22 1GB, UK
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Sursound [mailto:sursound-boun...@music.vt.edu] On Behalf Of
> Augustine Leudar
> Sent: 18 August 2017 13:59
> To: Surround Sound discussion group 
> Subject: Re: [Sursound] Sound Based Composition(surround)
>
> very well said Peter. Right enough of this - I'm off to make some
> sound based music :)
>
> On 18 August 2017 at 13:47, Peter Lennox  wrote:
>
> > Yes - academia generally is in a strange place. - I used to love it
> > - I remember being asked by someone I know why I worked for that
> > kind of money (he claimed more for transport against his tax bill
> > than I
> > grossed) - I said "because I get paid to think" - he said fair
> > enough, I
> get that.
> > But now, any thinking is strictly on my own time.
> > The problem is something like this: - the original reason for
> > something coming into existence is rarely identical to the reason
> > for continuing to exist.
> >
> > So, The word "university" is derived from the Latin universitas
> > magistrorum et scholarium, which roughly means "community of
> > teachers and scholars." (Wikipedia) - but in fact, scholarship is
> > now quite difficult to find the time and energy for, teaching is
> > defined by the measurement methods (to the exclusion of all else)
> > and community happens once a year at a conference.
> > In fact, there are so many competing vested interests
> > ("stakeholders") that the business (extremely big business) has become 
> > 'weaponised'
> > In the midst of all this, the footsoldiers in the trenches have
> > little influence on what universities should be doing, what academia is for.
> > And when did we last hear the word "wisdom"?
> >
> > So - the only reasons I can think of to study at PhD level are
> > personal
> > ones: the knowledge (and possibly even a glimmer of wisdom) itself -
> > the joy of discovering something new, the conviction that one didn't
> > simply mark time through life.
> > I would NOT advocate PhD level study as some passport to something
> > else (as with any academic qualification, actually - only matters if
> > you haven't got it, but doesn't guarantee anything whatsoever).
> > In other words, it's perhaps handy to think of a PhD as essentially
> > an amateur (as in 'for the love of..') thing. As such, the whole
> > thing, from proposal to methodology to types of conclusion, should,
> > first and foremost, please oneself. If others happen to like it, that's a 
> > bonus.
> > Cheers
> > ppl
> >
> > Dr. Peter Lennox SFHEA
> > Senior Lecturer in Perception
> > College of Arts, Humanities and Education School of Arts
> >
> > e: p.len...@derby.ac.uk
> > t: 01332 593155
> >
> > https://derby.academia.edu/peterlennox
> > https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Peter_Lennox
> >
> > University of Derby,
> > Kedleston Road,
> > Derby,
> > DE22 1GB, UK
> >
> >
> > -Original Message-
> > From: Sursound [mailto:sursound-boun...@music.vt.edu] On Behalf Of
> > Phi Shu
> > Sent: 18 August 2017 13:02
> > To: Surround Sound discussion group 
> > Subject: Re: [Sursound] Sound Based Composition(surround)
> >
> > true that International Art English
> > <https://www.canopycanopycanopy.com/contents/international_

Re: [Sursound] Sound Based Composition(surround)

[David Pickett]

At 20:06 17-08-17, Phi Shu wrote:

>Just curious, why do you want to do a PhD at all? are you planning on being
>an academic?

It is a relatively recent requirement of academics that they hold a 
PhD before being allowed into the profession. In my own case, I 
elected to do a PhD in order to be able to answer the questions I had 
about the subject material in a disciplined and rigorous manner. I 
realised from the start that, were I not to have employed the 
framework of a PhD, I should never have achieved anything. That said, 
the structure of my work and the thesis owed little to any previous 
models. Acquiring a PhD in a slightly different field from that in 
which I was engaged as an academic had absolutely no effect on my 
career development.


It never ceases to amaze me how many PhD candidates have NO idea what 
they want to research before they register for the degree. Given that 
the thesis is at the heart of it all (and in my case was the only 
requirement for award of the degree), this is amazing. These are the 
candidates who want a PhD solely because they want to enter the 
academy and, since they often seem to have no independent ideas in 
their heads, I wonder whether they should be allowed in.


David

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Re: [Sursound] Sound Based Composition(surround)

[Phi Shu]

>
> "No-one would deny that many of the greatest artists of our time made huge
> progress and developments in the arts - but often would write nothing at
> all about their work."


how many of the "greatest artists of our time" bothered doing a PhD?
Artists electing to do a PhD is a relatively recent phenomenon, there was a
time when an MFA was as far as most went, and before that a degree
sufficed.

a PhD is simply your license to do research in an academic institution,
nothing more, so if you don't actually do any novel research acquiring it,
you shouldn't be awarded the title, sorry, that's just the way I see it.

"It never ceases to amaze me how many PhD candidates have NO idea what they
> want to research before they register for the degree."


I would agree these people should not be doing a PhD, they should instead
be given a coloring book ; )
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account or options, view archives and so on.

Re: [Sursound] Sound Based Composition(surround)

[John Merchant]

If anyone is interested, here's a copy of the paper Gus mentioned.


From: Sursound  on behalf of Augustine Leudar 

Sent: Thursday, August 17, 2017 7:05 AM
To: Surround Sound discussion group
Subject: Re: [Sursound] Sound Based Composition(surround)

My favorite experiment/paper on this subject, which although old, is still
relevant, is "The role of head movements and vestibular and visual cues in
sound localization " Wallach 1940 - I can't seem to find it anywhere though
- if anyone has it and can post a PDF of it it would be very much
appreciated.

On 17 August 2017 at 09:42, Peter Lennox  wrote:

> The motion bounce illusion, where application of an audible transient
> alters the visual conclusion, from two circles passing through each other,
> to a perception of them 'bouncing' off each other, is a good example of
> audio altering visual perception.
>
> it would be simplistic to say that one sense 'dominates' the other, since
> the real point lies in the comparative robustness of cues -the sense with
> the best signal-to-noise ratio is likely to dominate in particular
> instances.
>
> Dr. Peter Lennox SFHEA
>
> Senior Lecturer in Perception
>
> College of Arts, Humanities and Education
>
> School of Arts
>
>
>
> e: p.len...@derby.ac.uk<mailto:p.len...@derby.ac.uk>
>
> t: 01332 593155
>
>
>
> https://derby.academia.edu/peterlennox
>
> https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Peter_Lennox
>
>
>
> University of Derby,
> Kedleston Road,
> Derby,
> DE22 1GB, UK
>
> ____________
> From: Sursound  on behalf of Augustine
> Leudar 
> Sent: 16 August 2017 22:14:46
> To: Surround Sound discussion group
> Subject: Re: [Sursound] Sound Based Composition(surround)
>
> This is true too Dave - I know of one audio cue in particular (to do with a
> football bouncing off a wall) that can alter the way you see the way the
> ball moves - Ill have to dig it out. It really sucks being a sound artist
> sometimes ! oh so you're an audio guy What's a sound artist ? What like
> a sound engineer ? or a sound designer ? oooh a jumped up button pusher
> with delusions of grandeur
>
> On 16 August 2017 at 20:06, Dave Malham  wrote:
>
> > I, too, agree with Augustine. A point though that I would make, on the
> side
> > so to speak, is, do not assume that visual cues always override audio
> ones.
> > It is quite common for visual arts people to assume that the visual
> > overrules everything else but, although not as common, audio perceptions
> > can override visual ones at times. Anyway, good luck with your phd.
> >
> > Dave
> >
> >
> > On 16 August 2017 at 15:29, Peter Lennox  wrote:
> >
> > > Wot he said...
> > >
> > > Dr. Peter Lennox SFHEA
> > > Senior Lecturer in Perception
> > > College of Arts, Humanities and Education
> > > School of Arts
> > >
> > > e: p.len...@derby.ac.uk
> > > t: 01332 593155
> > >
> > > https://derby.academia.edu/peterlennox
> > > https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Peter_Lennox
> > >
> > > University of Derby,
> > > Kedleston Road,
> > > Derby,
> > > DE22 1GB, UK
> > >
> > >
> > > -Original Message-
> > > From: Sursound [mailto:sursound-boun...@music.vt.edu] On Behalf Of
> > > Augustine Leudar
> > > Sent: 16 August 2017 15:25
> > > To: Surround Sound discussion group 
> > > Subject: Re: [Sursound] Sound Based Composition(surround)
> > >
> > > As you probably know visual and other cognitive cues often override
> audio
> > > cues (see wallachs amazing cylinder experiment from 1940). I like to
> play
> > > with peoples minds in my installations and create illusions with sound
> -
> > > but these can be massively aided by the careful manipulation of
> cognitive
> > > and visual cues - for me for example the choice of location and how it
> > > looks is just as much a compositional decision as the choice of sounds,
> > > every sensory experience people have from the sight of a speaker, to
> the
> > > smell of the environment will have an associated meaning for listeners
> > and
> > > effect how they hear things, and how believable the world you are
> trying
> > to
> > > transport them to is..
> > > Cognitive cues are massively influential on how we hear and experience
> > the
> > > world - from branding to deciding one person has something more
> important
> &g

Re: [Sursound] Sound Based Composition(surround)

[John Merchant]

Hmm, looks like the server removes any attachments.

Try this: 
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B-vV4Aoij_dmZE9iNGcxVGFzdG8/view?usp=sharing


From: Sursound  on behalf of John Merchant 

Sent: Friday, August 18, 2017 9:56 AM
To: Surround Sound discussion group
Subject: Re: [Sursound] Sound Based Composition(surround)

If anyone is interested, here's a copy of the paper Gus mentioned.


From: Sursound  on behalf of Augustine Leudar 

Sent: Thursday, August 17, 2017 7:05 AM
To: Surround Sound discussion group
Subject: Re: [Sursound] Sound Based Composition(surround)

My favorite experiment/paper on this subject, which although old, is still
relevant, is "The role of head movements and vestibular and visual cues in
sound localization " Wallach 1940 - I can't seem to find it anywhere though
- if anyone has it and can post a PDF of it it would be very much
appreciated.

On 17 August 2017 at 09:42, Peter Lennox  wrote:

> The motion bounce illusion, where application of an audible transient
> alters the visual conclusion, from two circles passing through each other,
> to a perception of them 'bouncing' off each other, is a good example of
> audio altering visual perception.
>
> it would be simplistic to say that one sense 'dominates' the other, since
> the real point lies in the comparative robustness of cues -the sense with
> the best signal-to-noise ratio is likely to dominate in particular
> instances.
>
> Dr. Peter Lennox SFHEA
>
> Senior Lecturer in Perception
>
> College of Arts, Humanities and Education
>
> School of Arts
>
>
>
> e: p.len...@derby.ac.uk<mailto:p.len...@derby.ac.uk>
>
> t: 01332 593155
>
>
>
> https://derby.academia.edu/peterlennox
>
> https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Peter_Lennox
>
>
>
> University of Derby,
> Kedleston Road,
> Derby,
> DE22 1GB, UK
>
> ____________
> From: Sursound  on behalf of Augustine
> Leudar 
> Sent: 16 August 2017 22:14:46
> To: Surround Sound discussion group
> Subject: Re: [Sursound] Sound Based Composition(surround)
>
> This is true too Dave - I know of one audio cue in particular (to do with a
> football bouncing off a wall) that can alter the way you see the way the
> ball moves - Ill have to dig it out. It really sucks being a sound artist
> sometimes ! oh so you're an audio guy What's a sound artist ? What like
> a sound engineer ? or a sound designer ? oooh a jumped up button pusher
> with delusions of grandeur
>
> On 16 August 2017 at 20:06, Dave Malham  wrote:
>
> > I, too, agree with Augustine. A point though that I would make, on the
> side
> > so to speak, is, do not assume that visual cues always override audio
> ones.
> > It is quite common for visual arts people to assume that the visual
> > overrules everything else but, although not as common, audio perceptions
> > can override visual ones at times. Anyway, good luck with your phd.
> >
> > Dave
> >
> >
> > On 16 August 2017 at 15:29, Peter Lennox  wrote:
> >
> > > Wot he said...
> > >
> > > Dr. Peter Lennox SFHEA
> > > Senior Lecturer in Perception
> > > College of Arts, Humanities and Education
> > > School of Arts
> > >
> > > e: p.len...@derby.ac.uk
> > > t: 01332 593155
> > >
> > > https://derby.academia.edu/peterlennox
> > > https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Peter_Lennox
> > >
> > > University of Derby,
> > > Kedleston Road,
> > > Derby,
> > > DE22 1GB, UK
> > >
> > >
> > > -Original Message-
> > > From: Sursound [mailto:sursound-boun...@music.vt.edu] On Behalf Of
> > > Augustine Leudar
> > > Sent: 16 August 2017 15:25
> > > To: Surround Sound discussion group 
> > > Subject: Re: [Sursound] Sound Based Composition(surround)
> > >
> > > As you probably know visual and other cognitive cues often override
> audio
> > > cues (see wallachs amazing cylinder experiment from 1940). I like to
> play
> > > with peoples minds in my installations and create illusions with sound
> -
> > > but these can be massively aided by the careful manipulation of
> cognitive
> > > and visual cues - for me for example the choice of location and how it
> > > looks is just as much a compositional decision as the choice of sounds,
> > > every sensory experience people have from the sight of a speaker, to
> the
> > > smell of the environment will have an associated meaning for listeners

Re: [Sursound] Sound Based Composition(surround)

[umashankar manthravadi]

Thank you. I had been looking for years for any research on head movement and 
sound localization. I know papers for visual cues and head movement and had 
assumed that similar effects should exist for sound. I am not an academic.

umashankar

Sent from Mail<https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986> for Windows 10

From: John Merchant<mailto:john.merch...@mtsu.edu>
Sent: Friday, August 18, 2017 8:29 PM
To: Surround Sound discussion group<mailto:sursound@music.vt.edu>
Subject: Re: [Sursound] Sound Based Composition(surround)

Hmm, looks like the server removes any attachments.

Try this:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B-vV4Aoij_dmZE9iNGcxVGFzdG8/view?usp=sharing


From: Sursound  on behalf of John Merchant 

Sent: Friday, August 18, 2017 9:56 AM
To: Surround Sound discussion group
Subject: Re: [Sursound] Sound Based Composition(surround)

If anyone is interested, here's a copy of the paper Gus mentioned.


From: Sursound  on behalf of Augustine Leudar 

Sent: Thursday, August 17, 2017 7:05 AM
To: Surround Sound discussion group
Subject: Re: [Sursound] Sound Based Composition(surround)

My favorite experiment/paper on this subject, which although old, is still
relevant, is "The role of head movements and vestibular and visual cues in
sound localization " Wallach 1940 - I can't seem to find it anywhere though
- if anyone has it and can post a PDF of it it would be very much
appreciated.

On 17 August 2017 at 09:42, Peter Lennox  wrote:

> The motion bounce illusion, where application of an audible transient
> alters the visual conclusion, from two circles passing through each other,
> to a perception of them 'bouncing' off each other, is a good example of
> audio altering visual perception.
>
> it would be simplistic to say that one sense 'dominates' the other, since
> the real point lies in the comparative robustness of cues -the sense with
> the best signal-to-noise ratio is likely to dominate in particular
> instances.
>
> Dr. Peter Lennox SFHEA
>
> Senior Lecturer in Perception
>
> College of Arts, Humanities and Education
>
> School of Arts
>
>
>
> e: p.len...@derby.ac.uk<mailto:p.len...@derby.ac.uk>
>
> t: 01332 593155
>
>
>
> https://derby.academia.edu/peterlennox
>
> https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Peter_Lennox
>
>
>
> University of Derby,
> Kedleston Road,
> Derby,
> DE22 1GB, UK
>
> ____________
> From: Sursound  on behalf of Augustine
> Leudar 
> Sent: 16 August 2017 22:14:46
> To: Surround Sound discussion group
> Subject: Re: [Sursound] Sound Based Composition(surround)
>
> This is true too Dave - I know of one audio cue in particular (to do with a
> football bouncing off a wall) that can alter the way you see the way the
> ball moves - Ill have to dig it out. It really sucks being a sound artist
> sometimes ! oh so you're an audio guy What's a sound artist ? What like
> a sound engineer ? or a sound designer ? oooh a jumped up button pusher
> with delusions of grandeur
>
> On 16 August 2017 at 20:06, Dave Malham  wrote:
>
> > I, too, agree with Augustine. A point though that I would make, on the
> side
> > so to speak, is, do not assume that visual cues always override audio
> ones.
> > It is quite common for visual arts people to assume that the visual
> > overrules everything else but, although not as common, audio perceptions
> > can override visual ones at times. Anyway, good luck with your phd.
> >
> > Dave
> >
> >
> > On 16 August 2017 at 15:29, Peter Lennox  wrote:
> >
> > > Wot he said...
> > >
> > > Dr. Peter Lennox SFHEA
> > > Senior Lecturer in Perception
> > > College of Arts, Humanities and Education
> > > School of Arts
> > >
> > > e: p.len...@derby.ac.uk
> > > t: 01332 593155
> > >
> > > https://derby.academia.edu/peterlennox
> > > https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Peter_Lennox
> > >
> > > University of Derby,
> > > Kedleston Road,
> > > Derby,
> > > DE22 1GB, UK
> > >
> > >
> > > -Original Message-
> > > From: Sursound [mailto:sursound-boun...@music.vt.edu] On Behalf Of
> > > Augustine Leudar
> > > Sent: 16 August 2017 15:25
> > > To: Surround Sound discussion group 
> > > Subject: Re: [Sursound] Sound Based Composition(surround)
> > >
> > > As you probably know visual and other cognitive cues often override
> audio
> > > cues (see wallachs amazing cylinder experiment from 1940). I like t

Re: [Sursound] Sound Based Composition(surround)

[Martin Leese]

John Merchant wrote:

> If anyone is interested, here's a copy of the paper Gus mentioned.
...
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John Merchant wrote:

> Hmm, looks like the server removes any attachments.
>
> Try this:
> https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B-vV4Aoij_dmZE9iNGcxVGFzdG8/view?usp=sharing

More punted off to the side than removed.  I
successfully downloaded the attachment from
the sursound website.

Regards,
Martin
-- 
Martin J Leese
E-mail: martin.leese  stanfordalumni.org
Web: http://members.tripod.com/martin_leese/
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Re: [Sursound] Sound Based Composition(surround)

[Phi Shu]

>
> aren't we already up to our necks in Baudillarian hyerpreality, Donal
> Trump is president the USA ffs.


that's Baud*r*illarian, certainly not Baudelairian, and Donal Trump isn't
the US president, it's some other guy with bad hair

So - the only reasons I can think of to study at PhD level are personal
> ones: the knowledge (and possibly even a glimmer of wisdom) itself - the
> joy of discovering something new, the conviction that one didn't simply
> mark time through life.


I would agree, but only if it's not at one's own financial expense ; )

On Fri, Aug 18, 2017 at 6:42 AM, David Pickett  wrote:

> At 20:06 17-08-17, Phi Shu wrote:
>
> >Just curious, why do you want to do a PhD at all? are you planning on
> being
> >an academic?
>
> It is a relatively recent requirement of academics that they hold a PhD
> before being allowed into the profession. In my own case, I elected to do a
> PhD in order to be able to answer the questions I had about the subject
> material in a disciplined and rigorous manner. I realised from the start
> that, were I not to have employed the framework of a PhD, I should never
> have achieved anything. That said, the structure of my work and the thesis
> owed little to any previous models. Acquiring a PhD in a slightly different
> field from that in which I was engaged as an academic had absolutely no
> effect on my career development.
>
> It never ceases to amaze me how many PhD candidates have NO idea what they
> want to research before they register for the degree. Given that the thesis
> is at the heart of it all (and in my case was the only requirement for
> award of the degree), this is amazing. These are the candidates who want a
> PhD solely because they want to enter the academy and, since they often
> seem to have no independent ideas in their heads, I wonder whether they
> should be allowed in.
>
> David
>
>
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Re: [Sursound] Sound Based Composition(surround)

[Augustine Leudar]

"Artists electing to do a PhD is a relatively recent phenomenon, there was
a time when an MFA was as far as most went, and before that a degree
sufficed."

Which kind of makes my point . Although PhD is the arts may be relatively
new - research and innovation, new discoveries in the arts are not . If
academia adopts a new field  and wished to make grounbreaking new work in
that field - to discover new knowledge - it cannot ignore the methods by
which new work in that field has been created for thousands of years. In
the case of art new ground has not traditionally been broken by asking
verbal research questions - they are their own language - you can no more
translate true innovation in the arts into the spoken word than you could a
pure mathematics PhD.

"PhD is simply your license to do research in an academic institution"

This is what a PhD may mean to you - but it is not the objective definition
of a PhD and many people will hold a different view

"It never ceases to amaze me how many PhD candidates have NO idea what
they want
to research before they register for the degree.  I would agree these
people should not be doing a PhD, they should instead be given a coloring
book ; )"

 I have a close family member who is a Professor of physics - she tells me
it is quite common for students to signifiy they wish to do a PhD without
knowing the exact area they will be studying - it is the dpartment that
tells them what their PhD thesis will be on - and often they end up doing
something quite different . I will inform her to issue all future
applicants with coloring books.


On 18 August 2017 at 15:48, Phi Shu  wrote:

> >
> > "No-one would deny that many of the greatest artists of our time made
> huge
> > progress and developments in the arts - but often would write nothing at
> > all about their work."
>
>
> how many of the "greatest artists of our time" bothered doing a PhD?
> Artists electing to do a PhD is a relatively recent phenomenon, there was a
> time when an MFA was as far as most went, and before that a degree
> sufficed.
>
> a PhD is simply your license to do research in an academic institution,
> nothing more, so if you don't actually do any novel research acquiring it,
> you shouldn't be awarded the title, sorry, that's just the way I see it.
>
> "It never ceases to amaze me how many PhD candidates have NO idea what they
> > want to research before they register for the degree."
>
>
> I would agree these people should not be doing a PhD, they should instead
> be given a coloring book ; )
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-- 
Dr. Augustine Leudar
Artistic Director Magik Door LTD
Company Number : NI635217
Registered 63 Ballycoan rd,
Belfast BT88LL
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Re: [Sursound] Sound Based Composition(surround)

[Phi Shu]

>
> "Artists electing to do a PhD is a relatively recent phenomenon, there was
> a time when an MFA was as far as most went, and before that a degree
> sufficed."
>
> Which kind of makes my point .


arguably, rather than being driven by the academicisation of creative
practice, this reflects changes in cultural labor markets and the emergence
of a growth industry we know as the "qualifications market." The wholesale
corporatisation of third level education has played a role.

"PhD is simply your license to do research in an academic institution"
>
> This is what a PhD may mean to you - but it is not the objective definition
> of a PhD and many people will hold a different view


yes, totally subjective, although it's what I believe it has become rather
than what I believe it should be. I guess the cynicism here stems from
witnessing a place become part of the Russell Group, everything was very
quickly reduced to a box ticking exercise; and that's what my PhD felt by
the end.

I will inform her to issue all future
> applicants with coloring books.


they can start with this one



On Sun, Aug 20, 2017 at 2:15 PM, Augustine Leudar  wrote:

> "Artists electing to do a PhD is a relatively recent phenomenon, there was
> a time when an MFA was as far as most went, and before that a degree
> sufficed."
>
> Which kind of makes my point . Although PhD is the arts may be relatively
> new - research and innovation, new discoveries in the arts are not . If
> academia adopts a new field  and wished to make grounbreaking new work in
> that field - to discover new knowledge - it cannot ignore the methods by
> which new work in that field has been created for thousands of years. In
> the case of art new ground has not traditionally been broken by asking
> verbal research questions - they are their own language - you can no more
> translate true innovation in the arts into the spoken word than you could a
> pure mathematics PhD.
>
> "PhD is simply your license to do research in an academic institution"
>
> This is what a PhD may mean to you - but it is not the objective definition
> of a PhD and many people will hold a different view
>
> "It never ceases to amaze me how many PhD candidates have NO idea what
> they want
> to research before they register for the degree.  I would agree these
> people should not be doing a PhD, they should instead be given a coloring
> book ; )"
>
>  I have a close family member who is a Professor of physics - she tells me
> it is quite common for students to signifiy they wish to do a PhD without
> knowing the exact area they will be studying - it is the dpartment that
> tells them what their PhD thesis will be on - and often they end up doing
> something quite different . I will inform her to issue all future
> applicants with coloring books.
>
>
> On 18 August 2017 at 15:48, Phi Shu  wrote:
>
> > >
> > > "No-one would deny that many of the greatest artists of our time made
> > huge
> > > progress and developments in the arts - but often would write nothing
> at
> > > all about their work."
> >
> >
> > how many of the "greatest artists of our time" bothered doing a PhD?
> > Artists electing to do a PhD is a relatively recent phenomenon, there
> was a
> > time when an MFA was as far as most went, and before that a degree
> > sufficed.
> >
> > a PhD is simply your license to do research in an academic institution,
> > nothing more, so if you don't actually do any novel research acquiring
> it,
> > you shouldn't be awarded the title, sorry, that's just the way I see it.
> >
> > "It never ceases to amaze me how many PhD candidates have NO idea what
> they
> > > want to research before they register for the degree."
> >
> >
> > I would agree these people should not be doing a PhD, they should instead
> > be given a coloring book ; )
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> > https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here,
> > edit account or options, view archives and so on.
> >
>
>
>
> --
> Dr. Augustine Leudar
> Artistic Director Magik Door LTD
> Company Number : NI635217
> Registered 63 Ballycoan rd,
> Belfast BT88LL
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Re: [Sursound] Sound Based Composition(surround)

[Stefan Schreiber]

Augustine Leudar wrote:


I think you misunderstand what I am saying but it's ok.  Anyway you might
want to look at Stanford. Some of their top academics described academia as
a cancer for creativity :

http://news.stanford.edu/news/2009/november2/art-academia-debate-110409.html

I believe some PhDs now have almost no written content whatsoever their
now. I think the whole concept of research having to be based on research
questions is outdated - it makes sense for some fields but not really for
art - in fact I think it hampers innovation. If  art and music seeks to
express something that can't be expressed verbally - how can you base such
activity on verbal research questions with out turning art into something
dead and pretentious and utterly limited by verbal thought processes. The
solution in the arts seems to have been to make those verbal though
processes ridiculously convoluted as possible . Have fun with that one
anyway and good luck.
 



Augustine, a philosopher you < are >... :-)  


Stefan




On 17 August 2017 at 13:40, 霖の <951343...@qq.com> wrote:

 


Thank you very much :) And there are couple of things I'd like to say:
I agree with both of you and Thank you very much.. The proposal , I don't
know how specific should it be And one of the problem is exactly what
Augustine has mentioned, practice led to research. In that case, the
objects... is more like a train of thought rather than just propose some
problems for future research. I'm afraid that will limit the creation as
well. So.. how to write a decent proposal really confuse me.


About the term, sound-based composition. It is academic.. at first time, I
used electroacoustics. However, as I hope to combine club electronic music
style with electroacoustic music, experiment music and so on...The purpose
is to have both aesthetic value and art value. Sound is a quite potential
sources and it is also the future of music, that's why I'm not rejected to
use this term...For composition, as sound and electronic music is quite
different from traditional music. Composers , always are audio engineer as
well. And when we study sound composition, we also need to learn
psychoacoustics so that we will know what we are doing exactly. Besides,
combine club electronic means extract some approaches or ideas from it, and
with principles, those sound works will be more humanization and
interesting rather than serious all the time. There are many people have
tried to find a more humanization way to present those art works,
combination is one of a choice.


About the visual cues, I've read some paper write by audiovisual artists.
To them, audio cues and visual cues are oneness rather than one dominate
another. What I referred  here is human always percept the world with all
senses, even in dark room, they still keep using every senses which is
intuitive. If artists use those principles to create sth special, that
would be interesting and innovation. But indeed, sound always provided
informations that visual cues cannot present. That's also a interesting
point to be research.






-- Original --
From:  "Peter Lennox";;
Date:  Thu, Aug 17, 2017 04:42 PM
To:  "Surround Sound discussion group";

Subject:  Re: [Sursound] Sound Based Composition(surround)



The motion bounce illusion, where application of an audible transient
alters the visual conclusion, from two circles passing through each other,
to a perception of them 'bouncing' off each other, is a good example of
audio altering visual perception.

it would be simplistic to say that one sense 'dominates' the other, since
the real point lies in the comparative robustness of cues -the sense with
the best signal-to-noise ratio is likely to dominate in particular
instances.

Dr. Peter Lennox SFHEA

Senior Lecturer in Perception

College of Arts, Humanities and Education

School of Arts



e: p.len...@derby.ac.uk<mailto:p.len...@derby.ac.uk>

t: 01332 593155



https://derby.academia.edu/peterlennox

https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Peter_Lennox



University of Derby,
Kedleston Road,
Derby,
DE22 1GB, UK


From: Sursound  on behalf of Augustine
Leudar 
Sent: 16 August 2017 22:14:46
To: Surround Sound discussion group
Subject: Re: [Sursound] Sound Based Composition(surround)

This is true too Dave - I know of one audio cue in particular (to do with a
football bouncing off a wall) that can alter the way you see the way the
ball moves - Ill have to dig it out. It really sucks being a sound artist
sometimes ! oh so you're an audio guy What's a sound artist ? What like
a sound engineer ? or a sound designer ? oooh a jumped up button pusher
with delusions of grandeur

On 16 August 2017 at 20:06, Dave Malham  wrote:

   


I, too, agree with Augustine. A point though that I would make, on the
 


side