[biofuel] The Emperor Goes To Asia and Talks Terror

[Keith Addison]

http://www.zmag.org

The Emperor Goes To Asia and Talks Terror

By Aziz Choudry

Fresh from visiting California's Governor-Terminator, His Imperial 
Majesty jetted off to Asia ...

Congressman Crispin Beltran, from the leftwing Bayan Muna party, 
described the nature of George Bush's eight-hour Philippine visit, on 
the eve of the 2003 Asia-Pacific Economic Cooperation (APEC) Summit 
in Bangkok, as "one a master does to the home of his slave, an 
emperor surveying the territories of his empire, and inspecting the 
lay of the land". It is an apt description for the whole 
Asia/Australia trip. Beltran, a veteran trade unionist with the 
militant Kilusang Mayo Uno (KMU), was one of seven Filipino 
Representatives to walk out in protest at the start of Bush's address 
to the Philippine Congress.

It has been 43 years since a US President - another tough-talking 
Texan - Dwight Eisenhower, addressed Congress in the Philippines to 
rally Philippine support against communism.

USA Today journalist Richard Benedetto (20/10/03) noted the striking 
similarities between the two speeches, suggesting that Dubya's 
speechwriter had clearly read Dwight's Cold War address.

Eisenhower had said: "Communism demands subservience to a single 
ideology, to a straitjacket of ideas and approaches and methods. 
Freedom of individuals or nations, to them is intolerable... They use 
force and threats of force, subversion and bribery, propaganda and 
spurious promises"

This time the Emperor warned: "A new totalitarian threat has risen 
against civilization". The remark was clearly not meant to be taken 
as self-referential.

"Like other militarists and fascists before them, the terrorists and 
their allies seek to control every mind and soul. They seek to spread 
chaos and fear, intimidate whole societies and silence all 
opposition," he said.

Tellingly, it was opponents of Bush's militaristic and imperial 
policies who were facing intimidation and being silenced in Asia in 
honour of his visit. Philippine President, Gloria Macapagal-Arroyo, 
in her ongoing crackdown against progressive organizations and social 
movements critical of her ardent support for US economic and military 
dictates, is the latest in a long line of US-backed Philippine 
Presidents - from the Cold War to the War on Terror - which have 
waged wars of terror at home.


In another part of his speech, Bush said: "America is proud of its 
part in the great story of the Filipino people. Together our soldiers 
liberated the Philippines from colonial rule. Together we rescued the 
islands from invasion and occupation." Millions of Filipinos would 
disagree with Bush's revisionist version of the history of US 
involvement in their country.

In fact, one reason for the strength and resonance of anti-war 
sentiments in the Philippines is the fact that under the guise of 
"training and advising", in this "second front" in the "war on 
terror" the troops of its former colonial ruler, the USA, are back on 
Philippine soil, with a vengeance. And - especially in Mindanao - 
many people know the sickening realities of war all too well. Death, 
displacement, disappearances, rape, torture, and despair. On his 
visit, the Emperor promised yet more US military aid and thanked his 
loyal subject for supporting his imperial exploits. According to his 
national security adviser, Condoleezza Rice, the Philippines "is a 
very good warrior in the fight on terrorism."

Beltran noted with irony that both Bush and Arroyo are the children 
of former presidents, both "became presidents not through victory in 
the polls. Mr. Bush became president through a decision of the United 
States Supreme Court. Mrs. Arroyo ascended to the highest office 
because of People Power 2 and also on the say-so of the Supreme 
Court. Both have been hounded by election-related scandals - Bush was 
haunted by the contributions made by Enron, while Mrs. Arroyo is 
being linked to money laundering charges". And both want to stay in 
office past next year's US and Philippine elections.

Urban poor dwellings near Congress were demolished before he arrived. 
Thousands of police and armed forces turned Manila and parts of 
Central Luzon into a militarized zone. Surveillance and harassment of 
activists was stepped up. It is estimated that Bush's eight-hour stay 
cost the Philippines US $1.45 million. After all, the Emperor of the 
World was in town. And nothing is too much fuss to keep the Emperor 
happy.

Then it was on to Thailand, which like the Philippines, has sent 
troops to Iraq and is viewed as a key US ally in the region.

A rectal swab, anyone? It's OK, I will understand if you say no. But 
at least you have a choice in the matter. Hundreds of catering and 
waiting staff at the hotels accommodating dignitaries for the APEC 
Meetings in Bangkok didn't. They were forced to have rectal swabs to 
ensure that they were not carrying any infectious diseases that might 
contaminate the VIPs' food.

The mice that 

[biofuel] Senate GOP tax-writers insist on ethanol measures

[murdoch]

http://biz.yahoo.com/rm/031027/energy_congress_1.html

 Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-->
Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark
Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US & Canada.
http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511
http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/FGYolB/TM
-~->

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Biofuels list archives:
http://archive.nnytech.net/

Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address.
To unsubscribe, send an email to:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ 

[biofuels-biz] Senate GOP tax-writers insist on ethanol measures

[murdoch]

http://biz.yahoo.com/rm/031027/energy_congress_1.html

 Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-->
Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark
Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US & Canada.
http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511
http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/9bTolB/TM
-~->

Biofuels at Journey to Forever
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
List messages are archived at the Info-Archive at NNYTech:
http://archive.nnytech.net/
Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address.
To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

 

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ 

Re: [biofuel] Separating glycerin and FFA's ( continued )

[James Slayden]

It sounds like a reprocess would be in order to see if he gets a two layer
seperation. If you get a good two layer seperation, then your proportions
are truely off.

Keith, I think your right in doing a water wash test w/ 50%water,
50%biodiesel and seeing how much emulsion forms, and if it even seperates
within a good timeline.  I have found that a good reaction will seperate
within an hour on a water wash test.  You should see a milky white layer
(soaps in water) on the bottom, and a somewhat clear golden (or
lighter/darker) layer on top.  If the whole thing looks like a orangish
(or yellowish) milky bile then you have some serious emulsion problems
indicating an incomplete reaction.  Go back and reprocess and then try the
test again.

Good luck!

James Slayden

On Tue, 28 Oct 2003, Keith Addison wrote:

> Hi Pieter
> 
> >Hi Keith,
> >I don't know for sure whether it is FFA's or something else ( BD ? ),
> but
> >the color is black and the BD is goldish, so I think it must be FFA's.
> 
> But the proportions are really all wrong. Still, it probably is FFA,
> but that you can't get it to separate more than that, with only so
> little FFA and no separation of the glycerine and catalyst, indicates
> that something else is wrong. Your conclusion that the by-product is
> almost 100% glycerine can't be right, your previous expectations (at
> least half) should be about right.
> 
> > > How do you know it's FFAs? The glycerine layer can continue to "leak"
> > > small amounts of biodiesel for some time after the process.
> > >
> > > >I expected at least half of the lot being FFA's, so I have been
> looking
> >for
> > > >the separation at about 50% of the volume. I don't find any NaOH at
> the
> > > >bottom.
> > > >My conclusion is, that the bottomlayer of the BD process is almost
> 100%
> > > >glycerine.
> > >
> > > I'm afraid I'm left wondering quite what the top layer might be,
> > > considering what follows.
> > >
> > > >I use 3.5 grams of lye and 150 ml methanol in the process and do not
> > > >titrate.
> > >
> > > Not enough lye for WVO and 25ml excess methanol (12.5% stoich for
> > > soy) is unlikely to be enough, especially at such low temps for only
> > > three hours.
> > >
> > > >The mixing takes two or three hours, just to make sure that the
> whole
> > > >reaction has taken place.
> > >
> > > Hm.
> > >
> > > >Temperature is 15° C or a bit more.
> > >
> > > 40 more would be better.
> > >
> > > >The oil I use is WVO ( soya ), which has been used for one or two
> days
> > >
> > > That doesn't mean much Pieter, it could be lightly used or very
> > > heavily used. Used for how many hours, at what temperature?
> > >
> >The oil has been used for about 20 hours all together at 140° C.
> 
> In which case the basic 3.5 gm/litre of lye is definitely not enough.
> You should try titrating it, it's not very difficult and it would
> tell you a lot. Lots of info on titration here:
> http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_make.html
> Start here:
> http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_make.html#biodwvo
> Then see:
> Basic titration
> http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_make2.html#titrate
> Better titration
> http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_make2.html#bettertitrate
> 
> Do you test the WVO for water content, by the way? Put a litre in a
> saucepan and heat it on a stove; stir it and monitor the temperature;
> if it starts crackling and emitting little streams of bubbles from
> the bottom at about 50-55 deg C it should be dewatered. If not, no
> problem.
> 
> > > >to
> > > >bake fish in.
> > >
> > > So it also has some fish oil in it.
> > >
> > > >After processing, I let it stand for a week or more.
> > >
> > > Before separating the biodiesel from the glycerin layer? Or do you
> > > remove the glycerine layer first? What proportion of the total is the
> > > glycerine layer? Is it usually solid or liquid? What colour?
> > >
> >I don't separate BD and glycerin layer. I just siphon ( is that the
> right
> >word ? )
> 
> The right word, and the right technique too - when you drain from the
> bottom the biodiesel gets drained past any residual by-product still
> adhering to the lower walls and bottom and can reabsorb it. It will
> settle to the bottom again, but siphoning from the top is best.
> 
> >the BD from the top of the lot, every time I need some BD, untill I
> >reach the bottom.
> 
> I think you may have said so before, but how long does that take? How
> often do you make biodiesel, and what size batches? Settling it for a
> long time definitely helps.
> 
> >The glycerin layer is about 15% of the total volume.
> 
> I think that's about right for quite clean oil using more methanol
> than you do. In your case it might be too little. Titration would
> help to confirm that.
> 
> >Not
> >really solid and not liquid. Somewhere inbetween solid and liquid.
> >The color
> >is black. After treating it whith phosphoric acid, the color turns a
> little
> >bit lighter. The color of the top layer is black.
> > > >I don't was

Re: [biofuel] swimming in it

[Walt Patrick]

At 09:39 PM 10/27/03 -0500, you wrote:
 >Glycerine that is.  And I am not really sure what to do with it.

Have you looked into using it to make soap?

Glycerine based soaps are translucent and are easy enough to make that 
stores carry kits so that kids can make their own soap at home.

Walt 



 Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-->
Rent DVDs from home.
Over 14,500 titles. Free Shipping
& No Late Fees. Try Netflix for FREE!
http://us.click.yahoo.com/ybSovB/hP.FAA/3jkFAA/FGYolB/TM
-~->

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Biofuels list archives:
http://archive.nnytech.net/

Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address.
To unsubscribe, send an email to:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ 

[biofuel] Fwd: Global Warming Vote / New Greenhouse Gas Study

[Keith Addison]

>From: "Ryan Walker" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>Subject: Global Warming Vote / New Greenhouse Gas Study
>Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 11:35:38 -0500
>
>EMS Update - October 27, 2003
>
>
>Senate to Vote on Global Warming Bill
>The Senate is expected to vote this week on the Climate Stewardship 
>Act of 2003, a bill by Sens. McCain (R-Ariz.) and Lieberman 
>(D-Conn.) that would establish a cap-and-trade program for 
>greenhouse gas emissions. Greenhouse gases emitted by industry and 
>motor vehicles are causing a rise in global temperatures, 
>climatologists say.
>
>News and opinion:  http://www.ems.org
>
>
>New Findings Support Greenhouse Gas Theory
>Researchers at UC Santa Cruz have reported new evidence of a 
>historic global warming event 55 million years ago. The findings 
>support the prevailing opinion of climatologists that high levels of 
>greenhouse gases are the cause of the current global warming trend, 
>the researchers said.
>
>Press release and news:  http://www.ems.org
>
>
>
>^
>EMS Updates provide news tips and resources for journalists from 
>Environmental Media Services.
>You received this email because you signed up for EMS Updates at our 
>website, http://www.ems.org.
>
>Please forward this Update to your colleagues. We welcome feedback 
>and suggested topics.
>
>You are currently subscribed to emsupdates as: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>* To unsubscribe send a blank email to 
>[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>* To subscribe, please visit 
>http://www.ems.org/updates.html
>
>^


 Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-->
Rent DVDs from home.
Over 14,500 titles. Free Shipping
& No Late Fees. Try Netflix for FREE!
http://us.click.yahoo.com/ybSovB/hP.FAA/3jkFAA/FGYolB/TM
-~->

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Biofuels list archives:
http://archive.nnytech.net/

Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address.
To unsubscribe, send an email to:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ 

[biofuels-biz] Fwd: Global Warming Vote / New Greenhouse Gas Study

[Keith Addison]

>From: "Ryan Walker" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>Subject: Global Warming Vote / New Greenhouse Gas Study
>Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 11:35:38 -0500
>
>EMS Update - October 27, 2003
>
>
>Senate to Vote on Global Warming Bill
>The Senate is expected to vote this week on the Climate Stewardship 
>Act of 2003, a bill by Sens. McCain (R-Ariz.) and Lieberman 
>(D-Conn.) that would establish a cap-and-trade program for 
>greenhouse gas emissions. Greenhouse gases emitted by industry and 
>motor vehicles are causing a rise in global temperatures, 
>climatologists say.
>
>News and opinion:  http://www.ems.org
>
>
>New Findings Support Greenhouse Gas Theory
>Researchers at UC Santa Cruz have reported new evidence of a 
>historic global warming event 55 million years ago. The findings 
>support the prevailing opinion of climatologists that high levels of 
>greenhouse gases are the cause of the current global warming trend, 
>the researchers said.
>
>Press release and news:  http://www.ems.org
>
>
>
>^
>EMS Updates provide news tips and resources for journalists from 
>Environmental Media Services.
>You received this email because you signed up for EMS Updates at our 
>website, http://www.ems.org.
>
>Please forward this Update to your colleagues. We welcome feedback 
>and suggested topics.
>
>You are currently subscribed to emsupdates as: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>* To unsubscribe send a blank email to 
>[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>* To subscribe, please visit 
>http://www.ems.org/updates.html
>
>^


 Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-->
Rent DVDs from home.
Over 14,500 titles. Free Shipping
& No Late Fees. Try Netflix for FREE!
http://us.click.yahoo.com/ybSovB/hP.FAA/3jkFAA/9bTolB/TM
-~->

Biofuels at Journey to Forever
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
List messages are archived at the Info-Archive at NNYTech:
http://archive.nnytech.net/
Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address.
To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

 

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ 

Re: [biofuel] swimming in it

[Appal Energy]

Jack,

Your "glycerin" is a cocktail of soap, alcohol, glycerin and catalyst. It
will burn well so-so as a fuel in that state, providing you can achieve a
proper fuel/air ratio. The alcohol is generally what takes off. The glycerin
is a bit tougher to get to burn - like burning honey, literally.

You can also crack the soap, recover the alcohol, use the recovered FFAs for
process heat (or other heat) and apply the catalyst (recovered as a
precipitate fertilizer (potassium phosphate, preferably)). This will leave
you with only the "true" glycerin to compost, which can be disseminated with
your wash water as gray water irrigation. (Roughly calculate 79 ml of "true
glycerin" per liter of oil.)

This is presuming that you have gray water as a result of fuel washing. If
you do, hopefully you're pre-treating your waste water with something akin
to magnesium salts (Epsom salts) to scum out the soap prior to releasing the
water.

JTF points to the use of the glycerin cocktail in homemade fuel logs.
Hopefully you opt to recover the alcohol before doing this. It would make
the paste thicker (considerably thicker if using NaOH rather than KOH) and
give you more efficient use of your alcohol.

Todd Swearingen

- Original Message - 
From: "Jack Kenworthy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Monday, October 27, 2003 9:39 PM
Subject: [biofuel] swimming in it


> Glycerine that is.  And I am not really sure what to do with it.  I am
making about 350 gallons of fuel a week now and coming out with roughly
40-45 gallons of glycerine to boot.  Up until this point I was able to
compost most of it readily, but now I have too much to deal with
effectively.  I am in a remote location in The Bahamas and have no one who
would be willing to buy the stuff.  I am storing it for the time being in 55
gallon drums that were used for lube oil at the power plant, but space is
not limitless there - I would love to find a solution for large quantities
of glycerine over the long term.  I can't just dump it on the ground, can I?
I have seen where it has spilled in the past and when it rains on those
spots it is quite messy.  I appreciate any input - I am sure the list has
some good experience with these levels of glycerine?
> Thanks!
> Jack
> Jack Kenworthy
> Sustainable Systems Director
> The Cape Eleuthera Institute
> 242-359-7625 ph. 954-252-2224 fax
> www.islandschool.org
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
> http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
>
> Biofuels list archives:
> http://archive.nnytech.net/
>
> Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address.
> To unsubscribe, send an email to:
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>


 Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-->
Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark
Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US & Canada.
http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511
http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/FGYolB/TM
-~->

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Biofuels list archives:
http://archive.nnytech.net/

Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address.
To unsubscribe, send an email to:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ 

Re: [biofuel] electric heat, ALeks' method Re: open flame heat sours

[Martin Klingensmith]

Keith Addison wrote:

>As I understand it (which could well be full of holes) a thermostat 
>works as I described it above, a rheostat simply adjusts the power 
>supply, lower or higher, and stays as you set it. The one is 
>constantly changing, switching on and off, surges up and down, the 
>other's constant, less action, less stress on everything, more 
>reliable. If that's not right, please correct. Electrickery isn't 
>exactly my strong point, I don't dream in volts and amps, need all 
>the help I can get (and am duly grateful). They say it's just like 
>plumbing, and I suppose it is at first, but that doesn't get you very 
>far, nor far enough before the analogy breaks down.
>  
>
You are correct, Keith.
A rheostat can be more reliable and easier, but more costly (the 
reliability/ease/cost triangle)

reliable + easy = will not be cheap
easy + cheap = will not be reliable
cheap + reliable = will not be easy

of course you've probably seen this:

good + quick = will not be cheap
quick + cheap = will not be good
cheap + good = will not be quick

aka inverse relationship

I always go for the third option, maybe that's why I never get anything 
completed.

I digress...

-- 
--
Martin Klingensmith
http://infoarchive.net/
http://nnytech.net/



 Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-->
Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark
Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US & Canada.
http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511
http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/FGYolB/TM
-~->

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Biofuels list archives:
http://archive.nnytech.net/

Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address.
To unsubscribe, send an email to:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ 

Re: [biofuel] Re: Wet Oil OK?

[Appal Energy]

Alright Ken,

I was hoping to avoid it this year. But I'll pull 50 or 60 pounds of "scrap"
over from the local processor once gun season starts, then boil you up some
deer tallow and Molly Dog some deer stew.

We'll all be happy. The dog more than you or I, no doubt.

Send an addy and we'll get around to it.

Todd Swearingen

- Original Message - 
From: "Ken Provost" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Monday, October 27, 2003 9:06 PM
Subject: Re: [biofuel] Re: Wet Oil OK?


> on 10/27/03 5:40 PM, Appal Energy at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>
> > I'd be tickled to see this conducted with
> > fresh deer tallow.
> >
> > Darned might sensitive stuff relative to
> > solid soap production after a complete
> > reaction.
> >
> > 1/4 gram over can yield a 50% biodiesel
> > /50% solid soap/biodiesel "emulsion"
> > at a 65*F cooling temp.
> >
> >
>
> In the words of an illustrious Amerikan president
> (recently voted the "worst since Hoover") I say,
>
> "Bring It On" !!!
>
> You send me a liter of deer tallow (I'm sortof
> a wannabe vegetarian, but I'll work with ya), and
> I'll do my thang. If I hafta refine it first,
> I'll do that too! Ethyl Deerate...-K
>
>
>
> Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
> http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
>
> Biofuels list archives:
> http://archive.nnytech.net/
>
> Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address.
> To unsubscribe, send an email to:
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>


 Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-->
Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark
Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US & Canada.
http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511
http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/FGYolB/TM
-~->

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Biofuels list archives:
http://archive.nnytech.net/

Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address.
To unsubscribe, send an email to:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ 

[biofuel] swimming in it

[Jack Kenworthy]

Glycerine that is.  And I am not really sure what to do with it.  I am making 
about 350 gallons of fuel a week now and coming out with roughly 40-45 gallons 
of glycerine to boot.  Up until this point I was able to compost most of it 
readily, but now I have too much to deal with effectively.  I am in a remote 
location in The Bahamas and have no one who would be willing to buy the stuff.  
I am storing it for the time being in 55 gallon drums that were used for lube 
oil at the power plant, but space is not limitless there - I would love to find 
a solution for large quantities of glycerine over the long term.  I can't just 
dump it on the ground, can I?  I have seen where it has spilled in the past and 
when it rains on those spots it is quite messy.  I appreciate any input - I am 
sure the list has some good experience with these levels of glycerine?
Thanks!
Jack
Jack Kenworthy
Sustainable Systems Director
The Cape Eleuthera Institute
242-359-7625 ph. 954-252-2224 fax
www.islandschool.org

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


 Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-->
Rent DVDs Online - Over 14,500 titles.
No Late Fees & Free Shipping.
Try Netflix for FREE!
http://us.click.yahoo.com/vhSowB/XP.FAA/3jkFAA/FGYolB/TM
-~->

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Biofuels list archives:
http://archive.nnytech.net/

Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address.
To unsubscribe, send an email to:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ 

Re: [biofuel] electric heat, ALeks' method Re: open flame heat sours

[Appal Energy]

Hey Keith,

Elecktrickery, eh?

Chuckle, Chuckle smurf chuckle:-)

It is much like plumbing, save for the small fact that most plumbing
fixtures you can see through. Solid state and enclosed switches and similar
apparati require a swift course of mental reconfiguration to not only
understand the conduits that aren't visible but to understand a completely
foreign language when it's put down on paper.

I'd rather stick with those things I can see straight through. Lot simpler
that way...whether with people, plumbing or problemas in general. :-)

Todd Swearingen

- Original Message - 
From: "Keith Addison" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Monday, October 27, 2003 5:11 PM
Subject: Re: [biofuel] electric heat, ALeks' method Re: open flame heat
sours


> Hi Mark
>
> > >
> > > Tom Leue said the thermostat failed, so it wasn't an open-flame heat
> > > source but electrical heating. If anything, a rheostat would be
> > > better than a thermostat. Thermostats keep switching the power on
> >and
> > > off to keep the temperature ranging as little as possible either
> >side
> > > of what you're aiming at, which puts a strain on everything
> > > concerned, IMO. A rheostat, once set, won't do that.
> >
> >
> >Actually, there's no problem with thermostats causing a more dangerous
> >condition than other heaters
>
> A thermostat's a heater? It's a heater controller, isn't it?
>
> >(I don' t understand why a rheostat would
> >work differently).
>
> As I understand it (which could well be full of holes) a thermostat
> works as I described it above, a rheostat simply adjusts the power
> supply, lower or higher, and stays as you set it. The one is
> constantly changing, switching on and off, surges up and down, the
> other's constant, less action, less stress on everything, more
> reliable. If that's not right, please correct. Electrickery isn't
> exactly my strong point, I don't dream in volts and amps, need all
> the help I can get (and am duly grateful). They say it's just like
> plumbing, and I suppose it is at first, but that doesn't get you very
> far, nor far enough before the analogy breaks down.
>
> >There are lots of possibilities of equipment
> >failure when you work with electric anything. The solution is ... a
> >thermostat, and doublechecking what you're assuming the automated
> >system will do. My cheapish thermometer is a mechanical
> >automotive-type temp gauge. They come with a variety of adaptors for
> >threadinginto pipe thread fittings- so even if you're weldless, you
> >put a tee in the line before your pump, and when you're ready to check
> >the temp, you run your pump for a minute to get the temperature strata
> >intermixed.
> >
> >Cheap automation is great. I use  heavyduty timers a lot, use cheap
> >timers for bubblewashing, and now use thermostats for processors. But
> >I always assume that they're fallable, I doublecheck everything, and I
> >try and have something in place in case it does fail (like
> >containment, closed systems, doublechecking temperature, etc...)
> >
> >UNfortunately I know that Tom took the same Iowa State University
> >course as I and many others here have done-= and that they certainly
> >DID cover all the safety issues that have been raised here by everyone
> >here. The course also included a section on safety which suggested
> >doing a survey of your plant where you try and identify EVERYTHING
> >that could possibly go wrong and come up with a strategy for dealing
> >with it if it does. common-sense stuff that I think most people do
> >anyway.
> >
> >
> >
> > >
> > > >(I'm particularly interested if this would work for
> > > >any rendition of the Foolproof method my Aleks Kac.)
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Anyway, the first stage of the acid-base method needs the temp
> > > maintained for an hour, but the second stage for 1.5-2.5 hours,
> >maybe
> > > not so easy just on pre-heating.
> > >
> > >
> >
> >I did fine with ALeks' method in wintertime (well a california winter)
> >working outdoors, with my Michelin Man bubblewrapped processors- the
> >insulation can maintain that temp if there's enough of it. ONe of the
> >things I worried about with this method was that it looked like higher
> >energy use- but it didn't add up to much once I installed loads of
>
> ... insulation I guess. That's certainly one way. There are others,
> it depends what you do. Heat can be free after all. There are other
> ways too. I find it most efficient, and even if you don't get the
> heat bit optimised, it has other efficiencies.
>
> All best
>
> Keith
>
>
>
> Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
> http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
>
> Biofuels list archives:
> http://archive.nnytech.net/
>
> Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address.
> To unsubscribe, send an email to:
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>


 Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-->
Buy Ink Cartr

Re: [biofuel] Re: Wet Oil OK?

[Ken Provost]

on 10/27/03 5:40 PM, Appal Energy at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

> I'd be tickled to see this conducted with
> fresh deer tallow.
> 
> Darned might sensitive stuff relative to
> solid soap production after a complete
> reaction.
> 
> 1/4 gram over can yield a 50% biodiesel
> /50% solid soap/biodiesel "emulsion"
> at a 65*F cooling temp.
> 
>

In the words of an illustrious Amerikan president
(recently voted the "worst since Hoover") I say,

"Bring It On" !!!

You send me a liter of deer tallow (I'm sortof
a wannabe vegetarian, but I'll work with ya), and
I'll do my thang. If I hafta refine it first,
I'll do that too! Ethyl Deerate...-K


 Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-->
Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark
Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US & Canada.
http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511
http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/FGYolB/TM
-~->

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Biofuels list archives:
http://archive.nnytech.net/

Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address.
To unsubscribe, send an email to:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ 

Re: [biofuel] Re: Wet Oil OK?

[Appal Energy]

I'd be tickled ("That's a joke, son. That's a joke."  see  "Froghorn
Leghorn") to see this conducted with fresh deer tallow.

Darned might sensitive stuff relative to solid soap production after a
complete reaction.

1/4 gram over can yield a 50% biodiesel/50% solid soap/biodiesel "emulsion"
at a 65*F cooling temp.

One of those "gotta' be dead on target" or at least a shade under scenarios.

Not sure if I'd want to throw water in the mix on that feedstock.

Todd Swearingen

- Original Message - 
From: "skillshare" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Monday, October 27, 2003 3:30 PM
Subject: [biofuel] Re: Wet Oil OK?


> I'd be interested to see what sort of soap production you get (you can
> do the soap test with bromophenol blue indicator and hydrochloric acid
> as described at the Leonardo site to get real numbers on this...). In
> nicer oil like yours it's not a huge problem most likely, but
> comparitively (ie compared to drying the oil first)???
> I've been working all summer on reducing the amount of water used in
> my washing, mostly through water reuse (ie countercurrent water
> reuse). SOmetimes I've got it down to 1/3 new water to 1 biodiesel
> just through doing reuse- AND through making sure it's dry oil and
> it's low-ffa in the first place. IN my case I have to worry about it
> because it's SUCH a royal pain to dispose of the water at my site-
> it's a very far walk to the drain on the other side of the building
> complex with buckets and I'm not allowed to set up a pumping system to
> deal with it. When I deal with being this persnickety about water
> usage, I notice that the slightest thing wrong with the biodiesel
> quality (ie soap) makes a big difference in the washing and causes me
> to use more water.
> Ken, where are you getting ethanol from these days and how much is it
> for both the drier stuff and this wet version?
>
> mark
>
>
> --- In biofuel@yahoogroups.com, Ken Provost <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > I guess my recent expts. with wet alcohol
> > have a corollary: the oil as well can be
> > wetter than we may have been led to believe.
> > I certainly won't worry any more about boil-
> > ing til the sputtering stops completely
> > (yes I know some of you never did:-)), given
> > that the alcohol can have 5% water and still
> >
>
>
>
> Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
> http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
>
> Biofuels list archives:
> http://archive.nnytech.net/
>
> Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address.
> To unsubscribe, send an email to:
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>


 Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-->
Rent DVDs Online - Over 14,500 titles.
No Late Fees & Free Shipping.
Try Netflix for FREE!
http://us.click.yahoo.com/vhSowB/XP.FAA/3jkFAA/FGYolB/TM
-~->

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Biofuels list archives:
http://archive.nnytech.net/

Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address.
To unsubscribe, send an email to:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ 

Re: [biofuel] filtering process

[Appal Energy]

Doug,

In response to what type of filter is best to use in your quest?

The simplest and least expensive (more often than not) is "time."

Time as a filter??

A good bit of glycerin can remain solute in biodiesel, as can much biodiesel
remain solute in the glycerin cocktail, long after a substantial waiting
period. Hence the need to wash the biodiesel and the wise choice of
aggregating the glycerin cocktail batch after batch, letting the remaining
fraction of biodiesel "settle up" over time.

What you might expect out of 55 gallons of glycerin cocktail over a two week
period of time is a "settling up" of perhaps 4-5 gallons of biodiesel.

Nature (gravity) is a pretty good filter in this case, if you can afford her
the storage capacity and time.

Todd Swearingen

- Original Message - 
From: "Doug L" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Monday, October 27, 2003 1:25 PM
Subject: [biofuel] filtering process


> We have succeeded in our first batch and all is running well. We seperated
> the biodiesel from the glycerine the day after the reaction and then found
> that there was still lots of seperating to occur. We are getting down to
the
> end of the batch and finding that the fuel is mixed with quite a bit of
> glycerine and needs some serious filtering. We have tried a 10 micron
filter
> and a big cone filter with cloth filters. These do not seem do be doing
the
> job. We need something that will do a good job filtering in an efficient
> amount of time. Any suggestions?
> Doug Loewen
>
>
>
>
>
> Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
> http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
>
> Biofuels list archives:
> http://archive.nnytech.net/
>
> Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address.
> To unsubscribe, send an email to:
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>


 Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-->
Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark
Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US & Canada.
http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511
http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/FGYolB/TM
-~->

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Biofuels list archives:
http://archive.nnytech.net/

Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address.
To unsubscribe, send an email to:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ 

Re: [biofuel] Separating glycerin and FFA's ( continued )

[Appal Energy]

Yo Keith and Pieter,

I believe what you will find in the separation of the "glycerin cocktail"
using phosphoric acid (or sulfuric) is a transparent amber layer of
glycerin/alcohol/water above the precipiate (sodium phosphate, sodium
sulfate, potassium phosphate, potassium sulfatewhatever) and below the
much darker FFA layer.

FFAs are solvent in biodiesel (and vice versa), (hence the ASTM and Euro
standards on acid number), so any amount of biodiesel that was in the
cocktail and not given suffish time to "settle up" will also be in the upper
layer upon completion of FFA/glycerin recovery.

I should probably go back and re-read the sequence to grasp the complete
context, but the above is about all that can happen in FFA/glycerin
recovery, IMNASHO.

Todd Swearingen

- Original Message - 
From: "Keith Addison" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Monday, October 27, 2003 2:05 PM
Subject: Re: [biofuel] Separating glycerin and FFA's ( continued )


> Hi Pieter
>
> >Hi Keith,
> >I don't know for sure whether it is FFA's or something else ( BD ? ), but
> >the color is black and the BD is goldish, so I think it must be FFA's.
>
> But the proportions are really all wrong. Still, it probably is FFA,
> but that you can't get it to separate more than that, with only so
> little FFA and no separation of the glycerine and catalyst, indicates
> that something else is wrong. Your conclusion that the by-product is
> almost 100% glycerine can't be right, your previous expectations (at
> least half) should be about right.
>
> > > How do you know it's FFAs? The glycerine layer can continue to "leak"
> > > small amounts of biodiesel for some time after the process.
> > >
> > > >I expected at least half of the lot being FFA's, so I have been
looking
> >for
> > > >the separation at about 50% of the volume. I don't find any NaOH at
the
> > > >bottom.
> > > >My conclusion is, that the bottomlayer of the BD process is almost
100%
> > > >glycerine.
> > >
> > > I'm afraid I'm left wondering quite what the top layer might be,
> > > considering what follows.
> > >
> > > >I use 3.5 grams of lye and 150 ml methanol in the process and do not
> > > >titrate.
> > >
> > > Not enough lye for WVO and 25ml excess methanol (12.5% stoich for
> > > soy) is unlikely to be enough, especially at such low temps for only
> > > three hours.
> > >
> > > >The mixing takes two or three hours, just to make sure that the whole
> > > >reaction has taken place.
> > >
> > > Hm.
> > >
> > > >Temperature is 15¡ C or a bit more.
> > >
> > > 40 more would be better.
> > >
> > > >The oil I use is WVO ( soya ), which has been used for one or two
days
> > >
> > > That doesn't mean much Pieter, it could be lightly used or very
> > > heavily used. Used for how many hours, at what temperature?
> > >
> >The oil has been used for about 20 hours all together at 140¡ C.
>
> In which case the basic 3.5 gm/litre of lye is definitely not enough.
> You should try titrating it, it's not very difficult and it would
> tell you a lot. Lots of info on titration here:
> http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_make.html
> Start here:
> http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_make.html#biodwvo
> Then see:
> Basic titration
> http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_make2.html#titrate
> Better titration
> http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_make2.html#bettertitrate
>
> Do you test the WVO for water content, by the way? Put a litre in a
> saucepan and heat it on a stove; stir it and monitor the temperature;
> if it starts crackling and emitting little streams of bubbles from
> the bottom at about 50-55 deg C it should be dewatered. If not, no
> problem.
>
> > > >to
> > > >bake fish in.
> > >
> > > So it also has some fish oil in it.
> > >
> > > >After processing, I let it stand for a week or more.
> > >
> > > Before separating the biodiesel from the glycerin layer? Or do you
> > > remove the glycerine layer first? What proportion of the total is the
> > > glycerine layer? Is it usually solid or liquid? What colour?
> > >
> >I don't separate BD and glycerin layer. I just siphon ( is that the right
> >word ? )
>
> The right word, and the right technique too - when you drain from the
> bottom the biodiesel gets drained past any residual by-product still
> adhering to the lower walls and bottom and can reabsorb it. It will
> settle to the bottom again, but siphoning from the top is best.
>
> >the BD from the top of the lot, every time I need some BD, untill I
> >reach the bottom.
>
> I think you may have said so before, but how long does that take? How
> often do you make biodiesel, and what size batches? Settling it for a
> long time definitely helps.
>
> >The glycerin layer is about 15% of the total volume.
>
> I think that's about right for quite clean oil using more methanol
> than you do. In your case it might be too little. Titration would
> help to confirm that.
>
> >Not
> >really solid and not liquid. Somewhere inbetween solid and liquid.
> >The color
> >is black. After treating it

Re: [biofuel] What vehicle are you running on biodiesel?

[Appal Energy]

A regular one person baseball team, eh?
:-)

The Happy Hippie

- Original Message - 
From: "Jack Kenworthy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Monday, October 27, 2003 1:51 PM
Subject: Re: [biofuel] What vehicle are you running on biodiesel?


> I have a 1993 Ford F-350, a 1993 Toyota Hilux Pickup, a 1995 Isuzu Elf 250
2-Ton Flatbed, a 1995 Toyota Hiace Van, a 1997 Toyota Hiace Van, a 1996
Toyota Hiace Van, a 1999 Toyota Hiace Van all running B100 in the vehicle
department.  I also have 2 small yanmar diesels (bandsaw mill and
compressor) and a 16 kw Yanmar genset running B100 and finally a 1984
Detroit 871 Twin Turbo in a 40 foot trawler running B50.  All running
spendidly.
> Cheers
> Jack
>
> Jack Kenworthy
> Sustainable Systems Director
> The Cape Eleuthera Institute
> 242-359-7625 ph. 954-252-2224 fax
> www.islandschool.org
>   - Original Message - 
>   From: C&H
>   To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com
>   Sent: Monday, October 27, 2003 1:23 PM
>   Subject: Re: [biofuel] What vehicle are you running on biodiesel?
>
>
>   Mercedes Benz 300 TD turbo wagon 1987 2WD
>   Massey Ferguson 1010 tractor 4WD
>   Belarus 822 tractor 4WD
>
>   All B100
>
>   Chris Amar
>   Central New York State
>
>
>   Mark Finewood wrote:
>
>   > I am curiouse about what vehicles people are running on biodiesel?
>   >
>   > Let me know.
>   >
>   > Mark
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
>   ADVERTISEMENT
>
>
>
>
>   Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
>   http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
>
>   Biofuels list archives:
>   http://archive.nnytech.net/
>
>   Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address.
>   To unsubscribe, send an email to:
>   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
>   Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
> http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
>
> Biofuels list archives:
> http://archive.nnytech.net/
>
> Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address.
> To unsubscribe, send an email to:
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>


 Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-->
Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark
Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US & Canada.
http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511
http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/FGYolB/TM
-~->

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Biofuels list archives:
http://archive.nnytech.net/

Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address.
To unsubscribe, send an email to:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ 

Re: [biofuel] Compensating for power loss

[Appal Energy]

Allan,

And here I always thought that footfeeds were lineal, not orbital.

Wouldn't matter whether the accelerator were dial or straight line, you
still have to "get over the hump somehow," whether it's a gennie or a
motorized vehicle (tractor, truck, auto, whatever) which means some degree
of increased fuel input or greater efficiency of the existing fuel charge -
a blower of some sort.

No point in not streamlining fuel use in standard demand situations
though...hence the existence of turbos, erego no net gain to be had from a
"blower." That leaves increased fuel input or just grinding it out in a
lower gear to get over said "hump." (Increased fuel in a gennie to get
desired rpm.)

Recirculating exhaust gases has great exploitive potential, but I think I'll
leave those constructs and refinements to IH (anyone ever seen a diesel
"Scout?"), John Deere, Case, the rest of the majors and, of course, the
"venerable" EPA.

Todd Swearingen

- Original Message - 
From: "Alan Petrillo" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "biofuel" ; "vegoil"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, October 27, 2003 11:37 AM
Subject: [biofuel] Compensating for power loss


> We know that using biodiesel or WVO in a diesel causes a small power
> loss.  Could this be compensated for by turning the fuel up a bit, say
> 1/8 turn?  Or would that just drive up the exhaust gas temperature with
> no real benefit, powerwise?
>
>
> AP
>
>
>
> Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
> http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
>
> Biofuels list archives:
> http://archive.nnytech.net/
>
> Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address.
> To unsubscribe, send an email to:
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>


 Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-->
Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark
Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US & Canada.
http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511
http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/FGYolB/TM
-~->

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Biofuels list archives:
http://archive.nnytech.net/

Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address.
To unsubscribe, send an email to:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ 

Re: [biofuel] open flame heat sourses (was: aaron--don't do it)

[Appal Energy]

William,

A picture of a "closed loop" heat exchanger doesn't require much
imagination.

Picture the following in a circular loop:

A liquid resevoir (1/2 gallon, sometimes more, maybe less, depending upon
need) heated by your fuel of choice, and a method of circulation (pump or
convection) that continually cycles the fluid in a loop. An appropriate
pressure release ("vent") is installed should over pressurization occur from
a heat source that has gone or is erratic.

I suppose the term "open" or "closed" has more to do with the transfer
medium, with air type exchangers (such as those installed in the exhaust
stream of wood stoves) being considered an "open" exchange and those where
the medium is liquid being "closed."

The "loop" fraction of the description would come from the medium
continually being recycled, reducing the amount of heat needed to be
transferred in order to recharge the system to a level that a "requisite"
amount of heat in turn be exchanged.

Intake on the plenum of a central heat or cooling unit might be considered
"closed loop."

Todd Swearingen

- Original Message - 
From: "William Clark" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Wednesday, August 27, 2003 9:47 AM
Subject: Re: [biofuel] open flame heat sourses (was: aaron--don't do it)


> Hello to all,
>
> Would Todd or some other send a description of a closed loop heat
exchanger?
> I would greatly appreciate it.
>
> Bill Clark
> - Original Message -
> From: "Keith Addison" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: 
> Sent: Monday, October 27, 2003 3:07 AM
> Subject: Re: [biofuel] open flame heat sourses (was: aaron--don't do it)
>
>
> > Hi Aaron
> >
> > >Todd: Of course I would use a closed loop heat exchanger. Good call on
> the
> > >differences of wood flames and propane flames, though.
>
>
>
> Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
> http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
>
> Biofuels list archives:
> http://archive.nnytech.net/
>
> Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address.
> To unsubscribe, send an email to:
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>


 Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-->
Rent DVDs from home.
Over 14,500 titles. Free Shipping
& No Late Fees. Try Netflix for FREE!
http://us.click.yahoo.com/ybSovB/hP.FAA/3jkFAA/FGYolB/TM
-~->

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Biofuels list archives:
http://archive.nnytech.net/

Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address.
To unsubscribe, send an email to:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ 

Re: [biofuel] Re: [evworld] 98 tons of prehistoric plant material per gallon of gasoline

[murdoch]

>>His final discussions of biofuel energies were also interesting to me.  Some
>>biofuel proponents will disagree with his ideas, but so be it.
>
>I disagree with his approach, and therefore with his conclusions. You 
>probably guessed I'd refer to these previous messages again:
>
>How much fuel can we grow?
>http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?view=1395&list=BIOFUELS-BIZ

For reasons having to do with the fact that I tend to agree with your approach
(e.g., sort of: "Rephrase the whole mess,  please") I have not dealt much lately
with these questions.  But, getting past his attempts to figure out
sustainability of biofuels, his conclusions did seem to jibe with my own basic
tenet that even if a solution is not the be-all end-all solution, that does not
justify dismissing it out-of-hand as a potential valuable team-player
contributor to a sustainable future.



>
>>>"what size area would be
>>>required to plant a sufficient amount of crops to offset the energy
>>>required for the whole growing & production process?"
>>
>>The answer: none.
>http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?view=1801&list=BIOFUELS-BIZ
>
>>I liked the fact
>>that he has chosen to examine these issues, and has illustrated the apparent
>>inefficiency (in one sense) of fossil fuel use of solar energy.
>
>Yes, and we've often agreed on the last bit: "... other technologies 
>have to be a major part of the solution as well - things like wind 
>and solar power." ALL available sustainable technologies in fact, 
>applied in combination as best fits the local situation.
>
>regards
>
>Keith
>
>
>
>Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
>http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
>
>Biofuels list archives:
>http://archive.nnytech.net/
>
>Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address.
>To unsubscribe, send an email to:
>[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
>
>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ 
>
>


 Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-->
Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark
Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US & Canada.
http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511
http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/FGYolB/TM
-~->

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Biofuels list archives:
http://archive.nnytech.net/

Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address.
To unsubscribe, send an email to:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ 

Re: [biofuel] ijector problems

[Pieter Koole]

Hi,
It's most likely that you can buy seals which are made out of teflon (PFTE
if you wish = poly tetra fluor etheen ) or some stuff like that.
Met vriendelijke groeten,
Pieter Koole
Netherlands

The information contained in this message (including attachments) is
confidential, and is intended for the addressee(s)
only.  If you have received this message in error please delete it and
notify the originator immediately.  The unauthorized use, disclosure,
copying or alteration of this message is strictly forbidden. We will not be
liable for direct, special, indirect or
consequential damages arising from alteration of the contents of this
message by a third party or in case of electronic communications as a result
of any virus being passed on.


- Original Message -
From: "michael hicks" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Monday, October 27, 2003 12:23 PM
Subject: [biofuel] ijector problems



Hi,new to the bord.

I Have a 1971 lightweight landrover series 111 with a 1985-86 2.5 defender
engine.The injector on this engine contains rubber seals which i beleve will
be damaged if used with biodiesel or veg oil having bought said landrover
for my biofuel project because it has 2 fuel tanks as standard what do i do
now apart from change engine to a later model with vicron seals.Im having to
buy a new injector eny way and there not cheep! So don't want to risk
damaging the new one.

Eny idears?


-
Want to chat instantly with your online friends? Get the FREE
Yahoo!Messenger

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Biofuels list archives:
http://archive.nnytech.net/

Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address.
To unsubscribe, send an email to:
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/




 Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-->
Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark
Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US & Canada.
http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511
http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/FGYolB/TM
-~->

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Biofuels list archives:
http://archive.nnytech.net/

Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address.
To unsubscribe, send an email to:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ 

Re: [biofuel] electric heat, ALeks' method Re: open flame heat sours

[Keith Addison]

Hi Mark

> >
> > Tom Leue said the thermostat failed, so it wasn't an open-flame heat
> > source but electrical heating. If anything, a rheostat would be
> > better than a thermostat. Thermostats keep switching the power on
>and
> > off to keep the temperature ranging as little as possible either
>side
> > of what you're aiming at, which puts a strain on everything
> > concerned, IMO. A rheostat, once set, won't do that.
>
>
>Actually, there's no problem with thermostats causing a more dangerous
>condition than other heaters

A thermostat's a heater? It's a heater controller, isn't it?

>(I don' t understand why a rheostat would
>work differently).

As I understand it (which could well be full of holes) a thermostat 
works as I described it above, a rheostat simply adjusts the power 
supply, lower or higher, and stays as you set it. The one is 
constantly changing, switching on and off, surges up and down, the 
other's constant, less action, less stress on everything, more 
reliable. If that's not right, please correct. Electrickery isn't 
exactly my strong point, I don't dream in volts and amps, need all 
the help I can get (and am duly grateful). They say it's just like 
plumbing, and I suppose it is at first, but that doesn't get you very 
far, nor far enough before the analogy breaks down.

>There are lots of possibilities of equipment
>failure when you work with electric anything. The solution is ... a
>thermostat, and doublechecking what you're assuming the automated
>system will do. My cheapish thermometer is a mechanical
>automotive-type temp gauge. They come with a variety of adaptors for
>threadinginto pipe thread fittings- so even if you're weldless, you
>put a tee in the line before your pump, and when you're ready to check
>the temp, you run your pump for a minute to get the temperature strata
>intermixed.
>
>Cheap automation is great. I use  heavyduty timers a lot, use cheap
>timers for bubblewashing, and now use thermostats for processors. But
>I always assume that they're fallable, I doublecheck everything, and I
>try and have something in place in case it does fail (like
>containment, closed systems, doublechecking temperature, etc...)
>
>UNfortunately I know that Tom took the same Iowa State University
>course as I and many others here have done-= and that they certainly
>DID cover all the safety issues that have been raised here by everyone
>here. The course also included a section on safety which suggested
>doing a survey of your plant where you try and identify EVERYTHING
>that could possibly go wrong and come up with a strategy for dealing
>with it if it does. common-sense stuff that I think most people do
>anyway.
>
>
>
> >
> > >(I'm particularly interested if this would work for
> > >any rendition of the Foolproof method my Aleks Kac.)
> >
> >
> >
> > Anyway, the first stage of the acid-base method needs the temp
> > maintained for an hour, but the second stage for 1.5-2.5 hours,
>maybe
> > not so easy just on pre-heating.
> >
> >
>
>I did fine with ALeks' method in wintertime (well a california winter)
>working outdoors, with my Michelin Man bubblewrapped processors- the
>insulation can maintain that temp if there's enough of it. ONe of the
>things I worried about with this method was that it looked like higher
>energy use- but it didn't add up to much once I installed loads of

... insulation I guess. That's certainly one way. There are others, 
it depends what you do. Heat can be free after all. There are other 
ways too. I find it most efficient, and even if you don't get the 
heat bit optimised, it has other efficiencies.

All best

Keith


 Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-->
Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark
Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US & Canada.
http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511
http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/FGYolB/TM
-~->

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Biofuels list archives:
http://archive.nnytech.net/

Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address.
To unsubscribe, send an email to:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ 

wood furnaces (was: Re: [biofuel] UCSC Biodiesel program update)

[Aaron F. Wieler]

yeah, they're great. kind of inappropriate for the operation i'm involved
in. Do you know of any smaller furnaces that are similar? DIY pages about
these?

too bad they call is "free heat." that's a step in the wrong direction, i
think, because of the connotation attached to these "inventions" that give
free energy and finally achieve perpetual motion and defy all laws of
thermodynamics. Beyond that, the technology here IS really good, and i've
heard good stories about these kinds of furnaces.

thanks james, aaron

On Mon, 27 Oct 2003, James Slayden wrote:

> Aaron,
>
> Have you checked out the following for process heat:
>
> http://www.freeheatmachine.com/
>
> James Slayden
>



 Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-->
Rent DVDs from home.
Over 14,500 titles. Free Shipping
& No Late Fees. Try Netflix for FREE!
http://us.click.yahoo.com/ybSovB/hP.FAA/3jkFAA/FGYolB/TM
-~->

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Biofuels list archives:
http://archive.nnytech.net/

Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address.
To unsubscribe, send an email to:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ 

[biofuel] BBC News: 'Minigrids' solve South Asia power crisis

[Dan Maker]

This may not dirrectly relate to biofuels (they do mention solar
energy, the ultimate source of biofuel) but it's a good example of
apropriate technology.


http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/3209239.stm

'Minigrids' solve South Asia power crisis

New "mini-grids" - small, community-owned electricity systems - are taking
off in a massive way as South Asia seeks to tackle the problem of meeting
the huge demand for power in the region. 

Two countries in particular - India and Nepal - are enthusiastically
embracing the systems, albeit for very different reasons. 

The mini-grid consists of a basic power-generation unit that stands alone
from a national grid, and is able to supply power to a small community,
regulated by adding and removing electric loads to respond to changes in
demand. 

In India, the scheme has been piloted in the Sundarbans islands, in the
Ganges delta in the southern part of West Bengal. 

"There are a large number of islands - 53 islands - with four million
people without electricity," SP Choudhury, founder of the Rural Energy
Cooperative Society, told BBC World Service's One Planet programme. 

"I thought at that time it may be a good idea to set up a small power plant
with a mini-grid in the local area - maybe 50 or 100 kilowatt - and we
would get at the needs of one or two villages, say 400 or 500 families. 

"They would get grid-quality electricity, similar to what we are enjoying." 


OWNERSHIP 
The project was an instant success. 

The key to this was the feeling of ownership of the electricity,
Mr Choudhury said. 

People were happy to pay the cost because they felt that they owned it. 

"'Yes, it is our power plant, we should pay', and it clicked - the idea
clicked," Mr Choudhury said. 

"In one village it was very successful. Immediately all the islands are
asking. 

 
"Already we have covered 11 islands of Sundarbans with this type of solar
power plant, and I have now got 2,000 consumers." 

This feeling of ownership has also been the reason for the project's
success in Nepal - although there mini-grids are employed to supply power
to remote communities. 

"We deliver the required power at a certain point, we put a meter on this
particular point - that means they will be responsible for the operation
and maintenance of the system," said Dr Janak L Karmacharya, head of the
Nepal Electricity Authority (NEA). 

"The first thing that will happen is they will feel the ownership." 

There had been additional benefits to the mini-grids giving people
ownership of their power, Dr Karmacharya pointed out. 

Firstly, the maintenance that the NEA would normally have had to pay could
instead by spent on something else. 

And further, it had totally eliminated electricity theft. 

"The losses due to theft will vanish - people will not steal their own
property," he insisted. 


NATIONAL GRID FAILURE 

The mini-grids provide a marked contrast to the coal, gas and nuclear
plants powering national grids. 

 
The failure of these grids has been graphically illustrated in recent
weeks - in the UK, Italy, the US, and parts of Scandinavia. 

"The mini-grid concept really only comes into its own when you are so far
away from the main generators that it's no longer cost-effective to run a
set of wires to that particular set of customers," stated Professor Nick
Jenkins, a chief researcher at the High Voltage Research Centre in
Manchester. 

"It could work in isolated rural areas and the particular applications are
clearly on islands." 

He added that they could also help with supplying the estimated two billion
people around the world currently without power. 

"If you can get the technology right and the costs right, then autonomous
power supplies - mini-grids for them - may be an appropriate way forward."


-- 
Jack of all trades, master of none.
Fiber Artist - Genealogist - Kilt Maker - Linux Geek - Piper - Woodworker
http://www.xmission.com/~redbeard


 Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-->
Rent DVDs Online - Over 14,500 titles.
No Late Fees & Free Shipping.
Try Netflix for FREE!
http://us.click.yahoo.com/vhSowB/XP.FAA/3jkFAA/FGYolB/TM
-~->

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Biofuels list archives:
http://archive.nnytech.net/

Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address.
To unsubscribe, send an email to:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ 

[biofuel] Re: [evworld] 98 tons of prehistoric plant material per gallon of gasoline

[Keith Addison]

Hi MM

Thanks for posting this, interesting indeed.

>On Mon, 27 Oct 2003 08:56:49 -0800, you wrote:
>
> > http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2003-10/uou-bm9102603.php
>
>Thanks.  I thought this person had identified some really 
>interesting topics for
>study, and I thought he was correct in his reasoning that:
> >
> >Explaining why he conducted the study, Dukes wrote: "Fossil fuel 
>consumption is widely recognized as unsustainable. However, there 
>has been no attempt to calculate the amount of energy that was 
>required to generate fossil fuels, (one way to quantify the 
>'unsustainability' of societal energy use)."
>
>I wonder as to the details of how he arrived at the very 
>extreme-seeming figure
>that:
>'
> >only about one-10,750th of the original carbon in ancient plant 
>material actually ends up as oil
>
>This was an assumption that seemed worth questioning.

I wonder what the figure would be for a diamond.

>His final discussions of biofuel energies were also interesting to me.  Some
>biofuel proponents will disagree with his ideas, but so be it.

I disagree with his approach, and therefore with his conclusions. You 
probably guessed I'd refer to these previous messages again:

How much fuel can we grow?
http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?view=1395&list=BIOFUELS-BIZ

>>"what size area would be
>>required to plant a sufficient amount of crops to offset the energy
>>required for the whole growing & production process?"
>
>The answer: none.
http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?view=1801&list=BIOFUELS-BIZ

>I liked the fact
>that he has chosen to examine these issues, and has illustrated the apparent
>inefficiency (in one sense) of fossil fuel use of solar energy.

Yes, and we've often agreed on the last bit: "... other technologies 
have to be a major part of the solution as well - things like wind 
and solar power." ALL available sustainable technologies in fact, 
applied in combination as best fits the local situation.

regards

Keith


 Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-->
Rent DVDs from home.
Over 14,500 titles. Free Shipping
& No Late Fees. Try Netflix for FREE!
http://us.click.yahoo.com/ybSovB/hP.FAA/3jkFAA/FGYolB/TM
-~->

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Biofuels list archives:
http://archive.nnytech.net/

Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address.
To unsubscribe, send an email to:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ 

Re: [biofuel] Re: Wet Oil OK?

[Ken Provost]

On Monday, October 27, 2003, at 12:30  PM, skillshare wrote:

> I'd be interested to see what sort of soap production you get...
> In nicer oil like yours it's not a huge problem most likely, but
> comparatively (ie compared to drying the oil first)???

It does seem to be a little soapier (guess my yield is suffering,
since there's not much FFA. Not a problem, particularly since
I always do a glycerine remix with 15% added water (a la
UIdaho) anyway. By the time I get the glycerine layer out,
there's VERY little soap in the biodiesel.

> where are you getting ethanol from these days and
> how much is it  for both the drier stuff and this wet version?

I've still got a little of my original drum from Parallel Products,
plus some sugar hooch I made with Gerd Strand's TurboYeast,
plus recovered ethanol from last year's glycerine layers, plus
a bit of Aaper absolute that I water down (ironic).

The only affordable source was Parallel Products at $1.60
a gallon for fuel-grade (CDA 20, 200pf), and even that was
prohibitive when you count freight.  190 pf might be slightly
cheaper, but also way easier to do at home. -K


 Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-->
Rent DVDs Online - Over 14,500 titles.
No Late Fees & Free Shipping.
Try Netflix for FREE!
http://us.click.yahoo.com/vhSowB/XP.FAA/3jkFAA/FGYolB/TM
-~->

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Biofuels list archives:
http://archive.nnytech.net/

Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address.
To unsubscribe, send an email to:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ 

[biofuel] Re: filtering process

[skillshare]

You can't really filter out glycerine byproduct. It +really needs 
gravity and time. What does 'mixed with glycerine' look like in your 
case? it could actually be something else. What is your reactor like- 
what sort of bottom and where is the drain, or are you siphoning or 
pumping from the top?

mark


--- In biofuel@yahoogroups.com, "Doug L" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> We have succeeded in our first batch and all is running well. We 
seperated
> the biodiesel from the glycerine the day after the reaction and then 
found
> that there was still lots of seperating to occur. We are getting 
down to the
> end of the batch and finding that the fuel is mixed with quite a bit 
of
> glycerine and needs some serious filtering. We have tried a 10 
micron filter
> and a big cone filter with cloth filters. These do not seem do be 
doing the
> job. We need something that will do a good job filtering in an 
efficient
> amount of time. Any suggestions?
> 


 Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-->
Rent DVDs from home.
Over 14,500 titles. Free Shipping
& No Late Fees. Try Netflix for FREE!
http://us.click.yahoo.com/ybSovB/hP.FAA/3jkFAA/FGYolB/TM
-~->

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Biofuels list archives:
http://archive.nnytech.net/

Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address.
To unsubscribe, send an email to:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ 

[biofuel] electric heat, ALeks' method Re: open flame heat sours

[skillshare]

> 
> Tom Leue said the thermostat failed, so it wasn't an open-flame heat 
> source but electrical heating. If anything, a rheostat would be 
> better than a thermostat. Thermostats keep switching the power on 
and 
> off to keep the temperature ranging as little as possible either 
side 
> of what you're aiming at, which puts a strain on everything 
> concerned, IMO. A rheostat, once set, won't do that.


Actually, there's no problem with thermostats causing a more dangerous 
condition than other heaters (I don' t understand why a rheostat would 
work differently). There are lots of possibilities of equipment 
failure when you work with electric anything. The solution is ... a 
thermostat, and doublechecking what you're assuming the automated 
system will do. My cheapish thermometer is a mechanical 
automotive-type temp gauge. They come with a variety of adaptors for 
threadinginto pipe thread fittings- so even if you're weldless, you 
put a tee in the line before your pump, and when you're ready to check 
the temp, you run your pump for a minute to get the temperature strata 
intermixed.

Cheap automation is great. I use  heavyduty timers a lot, use cheap 
timers for bubblewashing, and now use thermostats for processors. But 
I always assume that they're fallable, I doublecheck everything, and I 
try and have something in place in case it does fail (like 
containment, closed systems, doublechecking temperature, etc...)

UNfortunately I know that Tom took the same Iowa State University 
course as I and many others here have done-= and that they certainly 
DID cover all the safety issues that have been raised here by everyone 
here. The course also included a section on safety which suggested 
doing a survey of your plant where you try and identify EVERYTHING  
that could possibly go wrong and come up with a strategy for dealing 
with it if it does. common-sense stuff that I think most people do 
anyway. 



> 
> >(I'm particularly interested if this would work for
> >any rendition of the Foolproof method my Aleks Kac.)
> 
> 
> 
> Anyway, the first stage of the acid-base method needs the temp 
> maintained for an hour, but the second stage for 1.5-2.5 hours, 
maybe 
> not so easy just on pre-heating.
> 
> 

I did fine with ALeks' method in wintertime (well a california winter) 
working outdoors, with my Michelin Man bubblewrapped processors- the 
insulation can maintain that temp if there's enough of it. ONe of the 
things I worried about with this method was that it looked like higher 
energy use- but it didn't add up to much once I installed loads of 



 Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-->
Rent DVDs from home.
Over 14,500 titles. Free Shipping
& No Late Fees. Try Netflix for FREE!
http://us.click.yahoo.com/ybSovB/hP.FAA/3jkFAA/FGYolB/TM
-~->

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Biofuels list archives:
http://archive.nnytech.net/

Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address.
To unsubscribe, send an email to:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ 

[biofuel] Re: Wet Oil OK?

[skillshare]

I'd be interested to see what sort of soap production you get (you can 
do the soap test with bromophenol blue indicator and hydrochloric acid 
as described at the Leonardo site to get real numbers on this...). In 
nicer oil like yours it's not a huge problem most likely, but 
comparitively (ie compared to drying the oil first)??? 
I've been working all summer on reducing the amount of water used in 
my washing, mostly through water reuse (ie countercurrent water 
reuse). SOmetimes I've got it down to 1/3 new water to 1 biodiesel 
just through doing reuse- AND through making sure it's dry oil and 
it's low-ffa in the first place. IN my case I have to worry about it 
because it's SUCH a royal pain to dispose of the water at my site- 
it's a very far walk to the drain on the other side of the building 
complex with buckets and I'm not allowed to set up a pumping system to 
deal with it. When I deal with being this persnickety about water 
usage, I notice that the slightest thing wrong with the biodiesel 
quality (ie soap) makes a big difference in the washing and causes me 
to use more water.
Ken, where are you getting ethanol from these days and how much is it 
for both the drier stuff and this wet version?

mark


--- In biofuel@yahoogroups.com, Ken Provost <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I guess my recent expts. with wet alcohol
> have a corollary: the oil as well can be
> wetter than we may have been led to believe.
> I certainly won't worry any more about boil-
> ing til the sputtering stops completely
> (yes I know some of you never did:-)), given
> that the alcohol can have 5% water and still
> 


 Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-->
Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark
Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US & Canada.
http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511
http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/FGYolB/TM
-~->

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Biofuels list archives:
http://archive.nnytech.net/

Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address.
To unsubscribe, send an email to:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ 

[biofuel] Re: open flame heat sourses (was: aaron--don't do it)

[skillshare]

There';s been a great series in Home Power magazine in the last few 
issues about domestic soolar hot water, including some heat exchange 
stuff.  It's a good primer to what we're doing with heat exchangers.

That said, most heat exchangers are made of copper, which we should 
stay away from for biodiesel processing as it decreases storage 
stability of the product (in a few hours of contact when heated I 
believe). Use stainless steel if possible )I got some stainless tubing 
designed as a liquid-to-liquid heat exchanger, from a specialty 
refrigeration application). On the other hand most homebrewers don't 
have biodiesel sitting around (other than Pieter who stores his for a 
year before using) for long periods of time so maybe that's not as big 
of an issue. We usualy just don't produce all that much of it at once 
so in our area at least (where there's a homebrewer community and high 
demand!) it tends to get used up fairly rapidly.
 
 When biodiesel breaks down over time some of the byproducts released 
include acids (acetic and formic I believe) which can do some serious 
damage to fuel injection equipment. ONe of themoderators of 
biodieselnow.com just had a very expensive injection pump failure 
which looked like rust formation. This was with improperly stored 
commercial World Energy (ie soy, I believe in his area) biodiesel. 
There's no way to know for sure but this is definitely a possibility 
if you're running stuff that starts to break down. The other storage 
stability issue is polymerisation which is more like running 
improperly designed SVO, so you want to avoid both of these problems. 
I can't remember offhand which problem copper catalyses (I think it's 
oxidation), so sorry I don' thave better information.


mark
 



--- In biofuel@yahoogroups.com, "William Clark" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hello to all,
> 
> Would Todd or some other send a description of a closed loop heat 
exchanger?
> I would greatly appreciate it.
> 
> Bill Clark
> - Original Message -
> From: "Keith Addison" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: 
> Sent: Monday, October 27, 2003 3:07 AM
> Subject: Re: [biofuel] open flame heat sourses (was: aaron--don't do 
it)
> 
> 
> > Hi Aaron
> >
> > >Todd: Of course I would use a closed loop heat exchanger. Good 
call on
> the
> > >differences of wood flames a


 Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-->
Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark
Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US & Canada.
http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511
http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/FGYolB/TM
-~->

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Biofuels list archives:
http://archive.nnytech.net/

Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address.
To unsubscribe, send an email to:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ 

Re: [biofuels-biz] Biodiesel in demand after Nevada debut

[Jim Miller]

Probably because the newsmedia does not consider the engine warranty issue to 
be news.  However, testing of biofuel continues to be of some interest.  A good 
read which tests various blends of biodiesel versus petrodiesel can be found 
at:  

http://216.239.41.104/search?q=cache:cIp3mESc8IoJ:www.missouri.edu/~pavt0689/Biodiesel_Emissions_Data_60_DDC.pdf++%22diesel+fuel+certification%22&hl=en&lr=lang_en&ie=UTF-8

It will be worth your time reading.

Jim Miller

[EMAIL PROTECTED]

 

 


murdoch <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
http://www.amestrib.com/site/news.cfm?BRD=2035&dept_id=238095&newsid=10408883&PAG=461&rfi=9

Have not heard any word recently on Diesel engine makers for farmers and others
doing a better job of certifying their engines to be warrantied using more than
a 5% mixture.  Pity.  Have never heard the issue raised by anyone in, or opposed
to, the present Administration.  It's as though it's an issue of zero
importance.

Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT

Biofuels at Journey to Forever
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
List messages are archived at the Info-Archive at NNYTech:
http://archive.nnytech.net/
Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address.
To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
[EMAIL PROTECTED]



Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. 


-
Do you Yahoo!?
Exclusive Video Premiere - Britney Spears

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



 Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-->
Rent DVDs Online - Over 14,500 titles.
No Late Fees & Free Shipping.
Try Netflix for FREE!
http://us.click.yahoo.com/vhSowB/XP.FAA/3jkFAA/9bTolB/TM
-~->

Biofuels at Journey to Forever
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
List messages are archived at the Info-Archive at NNYTech:
http://archive.nnytech.net/
Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address.
To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

 

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ 

Re: [biofuel] UCSC Biodiesel program update

[James Slayden]

Aaron,

Have you checked out the following for process heat:

http://www.freeheatmachine.com/

James Slayden

On Sun, 26 Oct 2003, Aaron F. Wieler wrote:

> On Sat, 25 Oct 2003, shawstafari wrote:
> 
> > Aaron, any word on the program at Hampshire?  Recommendations from
> > the CU Biodiesel peeps?  Recommendations?
> >
> > Regards,
> > Dave
> 
> 
> at hampshire: we're waiting on a $500 US grant from the school to build
> the processor. Receiving the money does not mean they'll let us have the
> processor on campus. Ashfield, where Tom Leu just had the fire, is only a
> few towns away from hampshire, which is in amherst, MA. Some people here
> know Tom, even took a field trip to see his processor, and we've been
> working to assure people that our processor will not have the same risks.
> 
> we were thinking about trying to set up a heat exchanger from a wood
> stove
> in the same shack, which would be the only heating system for the reactor
> and oil/fuel storage area, but it sounds like we should have no sparks
> anywhere near the processor, if not for real safety concerns then for
> leverage to assure the college administration that we're legitimate. It
> will help to have a chemistry professor on our side too. We're working on
> that this week.
> 
> dave, i'll keep you posted about progress.
> -aaron



 Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-->
Rent DVDs from home.
Over 14,500 titles. Free Shipping
& No Late Fees. Try Netflix for FREE!
http://us.click.yahoo.com/ybSovB/hP.FAA/3jkFAA/FGYolB/TM
-~->

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Biofuels list archives:
http://archive.nnytech.net/

Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address.
To unsubscribe, send an email to:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ 

Re: [biofuel] Fwd: Weekend fire destroys backyard biodiesel operation

[James Slayden]

Hrmm,

http://www.thoughtsnmemories.net/bioschema.htm

Looking at Tom's Plant Schema and not knowing how far the dewatering unit
is from the processor, I would say that if he didn't have a sealed
processor (although it does kinda look like he has one in the
schema) there might be some issues, especially if he got the oil up past
meth fuming point.  It's difficult to tell how Tom has his processor set
up without physically seeing it.  Lemme check his site for pics.

Whoops!!  Now I see the problem:

http://www.yellowbiodiesel.com/factory.htm

Looks like an open processor to me!!  Bad idea Tom.  Also looking at the
processor and the way the electric motor stirrer is sitting, it could be a
spark accident waiting to happen (which it may have ).

Do we know of any "accidents" with sealed/pump processors?  There was a
similar accident to Tom's out here in Cali, which I couldn't accurate info
on it (even though I knew the person buying the BD from the accident
victim).  I think that some mistakes just want to be covered up.

So, for all of you newbies (realitive newbies) out there this should be a
lesson to you, DO NOT USE AN OPEN TOP PROCESSOR!!  Even if your not using
a pump, you can have a closed system (ask Mark or Biosmell how!!), not
only is it better for fire safety, but also for chemical inhalents during
the processing.

Tom, really sorry to hear that your going to give up, but if you saw one
of Mark's sealed processors, you might change your mind. :(  And I hope
that your recovery is going well.  :)


James Slayden

** sealed and safe even at 5 gal processing **


On Fri, 24 Oct 2003, Dan Maker wrote:

> I'm looking for an alternative source for that article but in the meantime
> a google search turns up all kinds of hits on Tom:
> http://www.google.com/search?q=Tom+Leue&sourceid=opera&num=0&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8
> 
> I used my spam address to gain access to the site, and the full contents
> of the original article have already been posted to the list.
> 
> You don't miss anything by not registering.
> 
> Dan
> 
> Appal Energy said:
> > 
> > http://www.projo.com/ap/ma/103231.htm
> > 
> > This ain't a good source for the article!!! SOBs ask for more damned
> > personal data than a group of flight "sturgeons" pouring over an astronaut
> > returning from Mars.
> > 
> > Not worth the invasion of privacy just to read the article.
> > 
> > Any other route would be appreciated.
> > 
> > Todd Swearingen
> 
> -- 
> Jack of all trades, master of none.
> Fiber Artist - Genealogist - Kilt Maker - Linux Geek - Piper - Woodworker
> http://www.xmission.com/~redbeard
> 
> 
> 
> Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
> http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
> 
> Biofuels list archives:
> http://archive.nnytech.net/
> 
> Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address.
> To unsubscribe, send an email to:
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ 
> 
> 



 Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-->
Rent DVDs Online - Over 14,500 titles.
No Late Fees & Free Shipping.
Try Netflix for FREE!
http://us.click.yahoo.com/vhSowB/XP.FAA/3jkFAA/FGYolB/TM
-~->

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Biofuels list archives:
http://archive.nnytech.net/

Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address.
To unsubscribe, send an email to:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ 

[biofuel] filtering process

[Doug L]

We have succeeded in our first batch and all is running well. We seperated
the biodiesel from the glycerine the day after the reaction and then found
that there was still lots of seperating to occur. We are getting down to the
end of the batch and finding that the fuel is mixed with quite a bit of
glycerine and needs some serious filtering. We have tried a 10 micron filter
and a big cone filter with cloth filters. These do not seem do be doing the
job. We need something that will do a good job filtering in an efficient
amount of time. Any suggestions?
Doug Loewen




 Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-->
Rent DVDs Online - Over 14,500 titles.
No Late Fees & Free Shipping.
Try Netflix for FREE!
http://us.click.yahoo.com/vhSowB/XP.FAA/3jkFAA/FGYolB/TM
-~->

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Biofuels list archives:
http://archive.nnytech.net/

Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address.
To unsubscribe, send an email to:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ 

Re: [biofuel] Separating glycerin and FFA's ( continued )

[Keith Addison]

Hi Pieter

>Hi Keith,
>I don't know for sure whether it is FFA's or something else ( BD ? ), but
>the color is black and the BD is goldish, so I think it must be FFA's.

But the proportions are really all wrong. Still, it probably is FFA, 
but that you can't get it to separate more than that, with only so 
little FFA and no separation of the glycerine and catalyst, indicates 
that something else is wrong. Your conclusion that the by-product is 
almost 100% glycerine can't be right, your previous expectations (at 
least half) should be about right.

> > How do you know it's FFAs? The glycerine layer can continue to "leak"
> > small amounts of biodiesel for some time after the process.
> >
> > >I expected at least half of the lot being FFA's, so I have been looking
>for
> > >the separation at about 50% of the volume. I don't find any NaOH at the
> > >bottom.
> > >My conclusion is, that the bottomlayer of the BD process is almost 100%
> > >glycerine.
> >
> > I'm afraid I'm left wondering quite what the top layer might be,
> > considering what follows.
> >
> > >I use 3.5 grams of lye and 150 ml methanol in the process and do not
> > >titrate.
> >
> > Not enough lye for WVO and 25ml excess methanol (12.5% stoich for
> > soy) is unlikely to be enough, especially at such low temps for only
> > three hours.
> >
> > >The mixing takes two or three hours, just to make sure that the whole
> > >reaction has taken place.
> >
> > Hm.
> >
> > >Temperature is 15¡ C or a bit more.
> >
> > 40 more would be better.
> >
> > >The oil I use is WVO ( soya ), which has been used for one or two days
> >
> > That doesn't mean much Pieter, it could be lightly used or very
> > heavily used. Used for how many hours, at what temperature?
> >
>The oil has been used for about 20 hours all together at 140¡ C.

In which case the basic 3.5 gm/litre of lye is definitely not enough. 
You should try titrating it, it's not very difficult and it would 
tell you a lot. Lots of info on titration here:
http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_make.html
Start here:
http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_make.html#biodwvo
Then see:
Basic titration
http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_make2.html#titrate
Better titration
http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_make2.html#bettertitrate

Do you test the WVO for water content, by the way? Put a litre in a 
saucepan and heat it on a stove; stir it and monitor the temperature; 
if it starts crackling and emitting little streams of bubbles from 
the bottom at about 50-55 deg C it should be dewatered. If not, no 
problem.

> > >to
> > >bake fish in.
> >
> > So it also has some fish oil in it.
> >
> > >After processing, I let it stand for a week or more.
> >
> > Before separating the biodiesel from the glycerin layer? Or do you
> > remove the glycerine layer first? What proportion of the total is the
> > glycerine layer? Is it usually solid or liquid? What colour?
> >
>I don't separate BD and glycerin layer. I just siphon ( is that the right
>word ? )

The right word, and the right technique too - when you drain from the 
bottom the biodiesel gets drained past any residual by-product still 
adhering to the lower walls and bottom and can reabsorb it. It will 
settle to the bottom again, but siphoning from the top is best.

>the BD from the top of the lot, every time I need some BD, untill I
>reach the bottom.

I think you may have said so before, but how long does that take? How 
often do you make biodiesel, and what size batches? Settling it for a 
long time definitely helps.

>The glycerin layer is about 15% of the total volume.

I think that's about right for quite clean oil using more methanol 
than you do. In your case it might be too little. Titration would 
help to confirm that.

>Not
>really solid and not liquid. Somewhere inbetween solid and liquid.
>The color
>is black. After treating it whith phosphoric acid, the color turns a little
>bit lighter. The color of the top layer is black.
> > >I don't wash the BD (
> > >not that I recommend this way of working, but in my case it works OK ).
> > >The pH of the BD is just over 7.
> >
> > Have you ever tried washing your biodiesel? I'd be interested to know
> > what happens. Will you try this? Put 150 ml of your biodiesel in a
> > half-litre glass jar, add 150 ml of water (preferably distilled water
> > if you have it, or just tap water if not), screw the lid on tight,
> > and shake it up and down violently for 10 seconds or more. Tell us
> > what happens next.
>
>Surprised about what happened : 3 layers. The top layer must be BD ( same
>color as it always is ), and than a rather thick layer of white flaky stuf,
>and a layer of troubled water. pH of the BD layer is still just over 7 (
>measured with litmus paper ).

I don't get any sense out of litmus paper, but other people do. How 
is it graded? 6-7-8 etc, or half-measures too?

Try measuring the pH of the water at the bottom.

How long did it take to separate into the three layers? Is the top 
(BD) layer clear

[biofuel] EU Ministers Agree Minimum Rates For Energy Taxes

[murdoch]

Not a word mentioned of any efforts or innovations to encourage alt-fuel use by
codifying taxation methods and amounts, even though a big point of the whole
exercise is to meet CO2 objectives.

http://biz.yahoo.com/djus/031027/1250001232_2.html

Dow Jones Business News
EU Ministers Agree Minimum Rates For Energy Taxes
Monday October 27, 12:50 pm ET 


BRUSSELS -(Dow Jones)- European Union (News - Websites) environment ministers
Monday agreed on a plan to introduce minimum energy tax rates - though keeping
many exemptions.
The new law ends six years of wrangling. Its goal is to encourage countries to
cut their carbon dioxide emissions, blamed for global warming, and to eliminate
competitive distortions arising from the E.U.'s patchwork of different taxes.

ADVERTISEMENT
 
 
France, for example, taxes diesel less than gasoline for cars, while Germany
favors coal to generate electricity. In order to prevent such distortions, the
legislation sets minimum tax levels on coal, natural gas and electricity.

[biofuels-biz] EU Ministers Agree Minimum Rates For Energy Taxes

[murdoch]

Not a word mentioned of any efforts or innovations to encourage alt-fuel use by
codifying taxation methods and amounts, even though a big point of the whole
exercise is to meet CO2 objectives.

http://biz.yahoo.com/djus/031027/1250001232_2.html

Dow Jones Business News
EU Ministers Agree Minimum Rates For Energy Taxes
Monday October 27, 12:50 pm ET 


BRUSSELS -(Dow Jones)- European Union (News - Websites) environment ministers
Monday agreed on a plan to introduce minimum energy tax rates - though keeping
many exemptions.
The new law ends six years of wrangling. Its goal is to encourage countries to
cut their carbon dioxide emissions, blamed for global warming, and to eliminate
competitive distortions arising from the E.U.'s patchwork of different taxes.

ADVERTISEMENT
 
 
France, for example, taxes diesel less than gasoline for cars, while Germany
favors coal to generate electricity. In order to prevent such distortions, the
legislation sets minimum tax levels on coal, natural gas and electricity.

Re: [biofuel] What vehicle are you running on biodiesel?

[Jack Kenworthy]

I have a 1993 Ford F-350, a 1993 Toyota Hilux Pickup, a 1995 Isuzu Elf 250 
2-Ton Flatbed, a 1995 Toyota Hiace Van, a 1997 Toyota Hiace Van, a 1996 Toyota 
Hiace Van, a 1999 Toyota Hiace Van all running B100 in the vehicle department.  
I also have 2 small yanmar diesels (bandsaw mill and compressor) and a 16 kw 
Yanmar genset running B100 and finally a 1984 Detroit 871 Twin Turbo in a 40 
foot trawler running B50.  All running spendidly.
Cheers
Jack

Jack Kenworthy
Sustainable Systems Director
The Cape Eleuthera Institute
242-359-7625 ph. 954-252-2224 fax
www.islandschool.org
  - Original Message - 
  From: C&H 
  To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Monday, October 27, 2003 1:23 PM
  Subject: Re: [biofuel] What vehicle are you running on biodiesel?


  Mercedes Benz 300 TD turbo wagon 1987 2WD
  Massey Ferguson 1010 tractor 4WD
  Belarus 822 tractor 4WD

  All B100

  Chris Amar
  Central New York State


  Mark Finewood wrote:

  > I am curiouse about what vehicles people are running on biodiesel?
  >
  > Let me know.
  >
  > Mark



Yahoo! Groups Sponsor 
  ADVERTISEMENT
 
   
   

  Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
  http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

  Biofuels list archives:
  http://archive.nnytech.net/

  Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address.
  To unsubscribe, send an email to:
  [EMAIL PROTECTED] 

  Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. 


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


 Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-->
Rent DVDs Online - Over 14,500 titles.
No Late Fees & Free Shipping.
Try Netflix for FREE!
http://us.click.yahoo.com/vhSowB/XP.FAA/3jkFAA/FGYolB/TM
-~->

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Biofuels list archives:
http://archive.nnytech.net/

Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address.
To unsubscribe, send an email to:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ 

Re: [biofuel] What vehicle are you running on biodiesel?

Mercedes Benz 300 TD turbo wagon 1987 2WD
Massey Ferguson 1010 tractor 4WD
Belarus 822 tractor 4WD

All B100

Chris Amar
Central New York State


Mark Finewood wrote:

> I am curiouse about what vehicles people are running on biodiesel?
>
> Let me know.
>
> Mark



 Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-->
Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark
Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US & Canada.
http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511
http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/FGYolB/TM
-~->

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Biofuels list archives:
http://archive.nnytech.net/

Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address.
To unsubscribe, send an email to:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ 

[biofuel] Re: [evworld] 98 tons of prehistoric plant material per gallon of gasoline

[murdoch]

On Mon, 27 Oct 2003 08:56:49 -0800, you wrote:

> http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2003-10/uou-bm9102603.php 

Thanks.  I thought this person had identified some really interesting topics for
study, and I thought he was correct in his reasoning that:
>
>Explaining why he conducted the study, Dukes wrote: "Fossil fuel consumption 
>is widely recognized as unsustainable. However, there has been no attempt to 
>calculate the amount of energy that was required to generate fossil fuels, 
>(one way to quantify the 'unsustainability' of societal energy use)." 

I wonder as to the details of how he arrived at the very extreme-seeming figure
that:
'
>only about one-10,750th of the original carbon in ancient plant material 
>actually ends up as oil

This was an assumption that seemed worth questioning.

His final discussions of biofuel energies were also interesting to me.  Some
biofuel proponents will disagree with his ideas, but so be it.  I liked the fact
that he has chosen to examine these issues, and has illustrated the apparent
inefficiency (in one sense) of fossil fuel use of solar energy.

 Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-->
Rent DVDs Online - Over 14,500 titles.
No Late Fees & Free Shipping.
Try Netflix for FREE!
http://us.click.yahoo.com/vhSowB/XP.FAA/3jkFAA/FGYolB/TM
-~->

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Biofuels list archives:
http://archive.nnytech.net/

Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address.
To unsubscribe, send an email to:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ 

[biofuel] Wet Oil OK?

[Ken Provost]

I guess my recent expts. with wet alcohol
have a corollary: the oil as well can be
wetter than we may have been led to believe.
I certainly won't worry any more about boil-
ing til the sputtering stops completely
(yes I know some of you never did:-)), given
that the alcohol can have 5% water and still
work fine -K


 Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-->
Rent DVDs Online - Over 14,500 titles.
No Late Fees & Free Shipping.
Try Netflix for FREE!
http://us.click.yahoo.com/vhSowB/XP.FAA/3jkFAA/FGYolB/TM
-~->

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Biofuels list archives:
http://archive.nnytech.net/

Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address.
To unsubscribe, send an email to:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ 

[biofuel] Compensating for power loss

[Alan Petrillo]

We know that using biodiesel or WVO in a diesel causes a small power 
loss.  Could this be compensated for by turning the fuel up a bit, say 
1/8 turn?  Or would that just drive up the exhaust gas temperature with 
no real benefit, powerwise?


AP


 Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-->
Rent DVDs from home.
Over 14,500 titles. Free Shipping
& No Late Fees. Try Netflix for FREE!
http://us.click.yahoo.com/ybSovB/hP.FAA/3jkFAA/FGYolB/TM
-~->

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Biofuels list archives:
http://archive.nnytech.net/

Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address.
To unsubscribe, send an email to:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ 

Re: [biofuel] Fwd: Weekend fire destroys backyard biodiesel operation

[Alan Petrillo]

girl Mark wrote:
>>
>>Weekend fire destroys backyard biodiesel operation
[snip]

Major bummer!

Particularly that last statement!


AP


 Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-->
Rent DVDs Online - Over 14,500 titles.
No Late Fees & Free Shipping.
Try Netflix for FREE!
http://us.click.yahoo.com/vhSowB/XP.FAA/3jkFAA/FGYolB/TM
-~->

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Biofuels list archives:
http://archive.nnytech.net/

Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address.
To unsubscribe, send an email to:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ 

Re: [biofuel] open flame heat sourses (was: aaron--don't do it)

[William Clark]

Hello to all,

Would Todd or some other send a description of a closed loop heat exchanger?
I would greatly appreciate it.

Bill Clark
- Original Message -
From: "Keith Addison" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Monday, October 27, 2003 3:07 AM
Subject: Re: [biofuel] open flame heat sourses (was: aaron--don't do it)


> Hi Aaron
>
> >Todd: Of course I would use a closed loop heat exchanger. Good call on
the
> >differences of wood flames and propane flames, though.


 Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-->
Rent DVDs Online - Over 14,500 titles.
No Late Fees & Free Shipping.
Try Netflix for FREE!
http://us.click.yahoo.com/vhSowB/XP.FAA/3jkFAA/FGYolB/TM
-~->

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Biofuels list archives:
http://archive.nnytech.net/

Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address.
To unsubscribe, send an email to:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ 

Re: [biofuel] open flame heat sourses (was: aaron--don't do it)

[Appal Energy]

Aaron,

I wasn't referring to a "closed loop" on the exchanger, which is more or
less a given. I was speaking of a closed loop reactor to prevent vapors from
leaving the system, or at least not until the vast majority had passed
through a condensor and been recovered - erego the vent after the condensor
as a pressure release mechanism.

As to your unsurity relative to this:

> No matter what you use as an open flame heat source TIGHT BUILDINGS
> ARE A MUST! 

You need to keep flame sources and vapor sources separate - very separate!
If you put your wood stove in a breezy shack two feet neighboring a breezy
reactor shack you've accomplished virtually nothing. I've seen people put a
wood stove but four feet outside a reactor building wall, with the reactor
building being nothing better than cardboard and toothpicks.

Again, you need a combination of distance (vapor dillution) and/or building
integrity to keep vapors safely apart from a flame.

As for

> Now, it seems that some folks are using oil burners to
> heat their fuel. What is an oil burner that is NOT an open flame heat
> source? Or maybe a better question for you would be, what is the
> difference between a metal box with one inlet and one outlet and a similar
> metal box that burns wood?

You still need to keep potential vapors and the heat source safely separate.
Doesn't matter if it's a Babington, propane, natural gas, wood, etc. There
is the benefit that at least the former of the three are "nozzle fuels" and
can be shutdown remotely with but a flip of a valve or switch. That cannot
be said for wood heat, which gives need to use even greater caution if it is
used.

> If it turns
> out we can't heat our space in the winter, we won't.

You can, efficiently and cheaply. It just has to be done safely.

Todd Swearingen


- Original Message - 
From: "Aaron F. Wieler" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Sunday, October 26, 2003 7:29 PM
Subject: [biofuel] open flame heat sourses (was: aaron--don't do it)


> Todd: Of course I would use a closed loop heat exchanger. Good call on the
> differences of wood flames and propane flames, though.  On the other hand,
> there's information on the JTF website about using milk cartons with
> sawdust and byproduct. It's under the glycerine section.  Is anyone
> using these to heat their oil, and if so, how are those
> used to heat in a way that can be immediately shut off?
>
> On a slightly different note, is there anyone turning off the heat
> entirely before adding the methoxide/ethanol equivalent? This would be
> ideal because it could eliminate the need to heat the mixing tank if the
> oil were pre-heated. (I'm particularly interested if this would work for
> any rendition of the Foolproof method my Aleks Kac.)
>
> Todd: I'm actually not entirely sure what you mean by the following:
>
> No matter what you use as an open flame heat source TIGHT BUILDINGS
> ARE A MUST! 
>
> Do you mean that the reactor MUST be located inside a tight building? Many
> people have reactors outside. Next possibility: if you use an open flame
> heat source, the flame must be in a tight building, with no fuel in it. In
> your opinion, is there a safe distance to separate the processor/fuel
> storage from an open flame heat source if the whole thing is done under a
> roof only?
> Now, it seems that some folks are using oil burners to
> heat their fuel. What is an oil burner that is NOT an open flame heat
> source? Or maybe a better question for you would be, what is the
> difference between a metal box with one inlet and one outlet and a similar
> metal box that burns wood?
>
> quote from glycerin section of journey to forever.
> http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_glycerin.html#burn
>
> "Some biodiesel brewers are burning the by-product raw to provide heat for
> the biodiesel process. They use pot burners with a forced air supply piped
> in from an external fan. There are various designs being used, and a
> variety of ways of controlling the fuel supply and pre-heating the
> by-product so it flows evenly to the burner. "
>
> Question for anyone: if you are using waste oil in a burner/stove
> assembly, where is your burner located in relation to your reactor and
> chemical/fuel storage?
>
>
> And Todd, thanks for your concern. But I'm not going to blow anything up.
> The idea of having a wood stove in the same room as the reactor wasn't
> thought through enough for posting on this list, obviously. If it turns
> out we can't heat our space in the winter, we won't.
>
>
>
> On Sun, 26 Oct 2003, Appal Energy wrote:
>
> > Aaron,
> >
> > DON'T DO IT
> >
> > > we were thinking about trying to set up a heat exchanger from a wood
stove
> > > in the same shack, which would be the only heating system for the
reactor
> > > and oil/fuel storage area,
> >
> > Not unless the open flame (stove) is completely removed from the
processing
> > room, separate in its own building or far enough away that an alcohol
spill
> > in one building wouldn't b

Re: [biofuel] Separating glycerin and FFA's ( continued )

[Pieter Koole]

Hi Keith,
I don't know for sure whether it is FFA's or something else ( BD ? ), but
the color is black and the BD is goldish, so I think it must be FFA's.
>
> How do you know it's FFAs? The glycerine layer can continue to "leak"
> small amounts of biodiesel for some time after the process.
>
> >I expected at least half of the lot being FFA's, so I have been looking
for
> >the separation at about 50% of the volume. I don't find any NaOH at the
> >bottom.
> >My conclusion is, that the bottomlayer of the BD process is almost 100%
> >glycerine.
>
> I'm afraid I'm left wondering quite what the top layer might be,
> considering what follows.
>
> >I use 3.5 grams of lye and 150 ml methanol in the process and do not
> >titrate.
>
> Not enough lye for WVO and 25ml excess methanol (12.5% stoich for
> soy) is unlikely to be enough, especially at such low temps for only
> three hours.
>
> >The mixing takes two or three hours, just to make sure that the whole
> >reaction has taken place.
>
> Hm.
>
> >Temperature is 15¡ C or a bit more.
>
> 40 more would be better.
>
> >The oil I use is WVO ( soya ), which has been used for one or two days
>
> That doesn't mean much Pieter, it could be lightly used or very
> heavily used. Used for how many hours, at what temperature?
>
The oil has been used for about 20 hours all together at 140¡ C.
> >to
> >bake fish in.
>
> So it also has some fish oil in it.
>
> >After processing, I let it stand for a week or more.
>
> Before separating the biodiesel from the glycerin layer? Or do you
> remove the glycerine layer first? What proportion of the total is the
> glycerine layer? Is it usually solid or liquid? What colour?
>
I don't separate BD and glycerin layer. I just siphon ( is that the right
word ? ) the BD from the top of the lot, every time I need some BD, untill I
reach the bottom. The glycerin layer is about 15% of the total volume. Not
really solid and not liquid. Somewhere inbetween solid and liquid. The color
is black. After treating it whith phosphoric acid, the color turns a little
bit lighter. The color of the top layer is black.
> >I don't wash the BD (
> >not that I recommend this way of working, but in my case it works OK ).
> >The pH of the BD is just over 7.
>
> Have you ever tried washing your biodiesel? I'd be interested to know
> what happens. Will you try this? Put 150 ml of your biodiesel in a
> half-litre glass jar, add 150 ml of water (preferably distilled water
> if you have it, or just tap water if not), screw the lid on tight,
> and shake it up and down violently for 10 seconds or more. Tell us
> what happens next.

Surprised about what happened : 3 layers. The top layer must be BD ( same
color as it always is ), and than a rather thick layer of white flaky stuf,
and a layer of troubled water. pH of the BD layer is still just over 7 (
measured with litmus paper ).
>
> I know some people have difficulty separating the by-product layer,
> it's not only you, I've had off-list enquiries too, but I don't
> understand what the problem might be. I've tried it with different
> types of oil, with good oil and very bad oil, with at least three
> different biodiesel processes and two different catalysts, and it
> works every time, there's no difficulty at all, I can't get it to
> fail. So I can't help thinking something else must be wrong.
>
> Beste
>
> Keith
>
>
> >Met vriendelijke groeten,
> >Pieter Koole
> >Netherlands
> >
>
>
>
> Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
> http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
>
> Biofuels list archives:
> http://archive.nnytech.net/
>
> Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address.
> To unsubscribe, send an email to:
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>



 Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-->
Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark
Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US & Canada.
http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511
http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/FGYolB/TM
-~->

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Biofuels list archives:
http://archive.nnytech.net/

Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address.
To unsubscribe, send an email to:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ 

Re: [biofuel] ijector problems

[Keith Addison]

Hello Michael

>Hi,new to the bord.

Welcome.

>I Have a 1971 lightweight landrover series 111 with a 1985-86 2.5 
>defender engine.

:-) We used to have one of they, same year, with the original engine.

>The injector on this engine contains rubber seals which i beleve 
>will be damaged if used with biodiesel or veg oil having bought said 
>landrover for my biofuel project because it has 2 fuel tanks as 
>standard what do i do now apart from change engine to a later model 
>with vicron seals.Im having to buy a new injector eny way and there 
>not cheep! So don't want to risk damaging the new one.
>
>Eny idears?

By injector you mean the injector pump? If you're buying a new pump 
it probably won't have rubber seals, if it does, have them changed 
before fitting it. (Viton, not vicron.) Anyway, it certainly doesn't 
mean changing the motor, just the seals, and maybe hoses. It might 
not even be necessary - see:
Biodiesel and your vehicle - Compatibility: Rubber
http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_vehicle.html#rubber

Even if it does happen it won't be a sudden catastrophe, you should 
have plenty of warning and time to take action. So why not just go 
ahead?

By the way, you don't need two tanks for biodiesel, only for the 
two-tank type of straight vegetable oil systems:
http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_svo.html
Straight vegetable oil as diesel fuel

Best

Keith


 Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-->
Rent DVDs Online - Over 14,500 titles.
No Late Fees & Free Shipping.
Try Netflix for FREE!
http://us.click.yahoo.com/vhSowB/XP.FAA/3jkFAA/FGYolB/TM
-~->

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Biofuels list archives:
http://archive.nnytech.net/

Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address.
To unsubscribe, send an email to:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ 

RE: [biofuel] What vehicle are you running on biodiesel?

[Keith Addison]

Hi Frank, Mark

>Toyota Revo type 2L 2.4 diesel engine 1998 model running at B100 and as
>lube oil for two stroke engine Yamaha 1983 model 125 cc mixed with 5%
>bidoesel (1:20) still running under observation initial result change
>spark plug and clean gasoline tank because biodiesel and gasoline mixed
>remove residue to gas tank, fouling the carburetor. motor was running
>smoothly as before, smoke improved because no more 2T lube oil.

Very interesting Frank, please keep careful records and keep us 
informed. Best of good luck, I really hope it doesn't "destroy" your 
motor as alleged (though that filtered down to one vague report of a 
report of "bearings damage" sans essential details). Other reports 
have been positive, but no long-term results, and we'd all like to 
have some long-term results. Good on you for being prepared to take 
the risk.

Mark, that could end up being an interesting list you're compiling, I 
hope you'll forward it to the list.

My contribution:

1990 Toyota Town-Ace 4x4 van 1.9-litre 4-cyl turbo diesel, B100
Previously a few years ago, 1978 Land Rover 109 diesel 2286cc 4 cyl, B100

Best

Keith


>Frank
>
>-Original Message-
>From: Appal Energy [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>Sent: Monday, October 27, 2003 7:10 AM
>To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com
>Subject: Re: [biofuel] What vehicle are you running on biodiesel?
>
>Ford F-250 and VW Golf.
>
>- Original Message -
>From: "Mark Finewood" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>To: 
>Sent: Sunday, October 26, 2003 12:32 PM
>Subject: [biofuel] What vehicle are you running on biodiesel?
>
>
> > I am curiouse about what vehicles people are running on biodiesel?
> >
> > Let me know.
> >
> > Mark


 Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-->
Rent DVDs Online - Over 14,500 titles.
No Late Fees & Free Shipping.
Try Netflix for FREE!
http://us.click.yahoo.com/vhSowB/XP.FAA/3jkFAA/FGYolB/TM
-~->

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Biofuels list archives:
http://archive.nnytech.net/

Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address.
To unsubscribe, send an email to:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ 

[biofuel] ijector problems

[michael hicks]

Hi,new to the bord.

I Have a 1971 lightweight landrover series 111 with a 1985-86 2.5 defender 
engine.The injector on this engine contains rubber seals which i beleve will be 
damaged if used with biodiesel or veg oil having bought said landrover for my 
biofuel project because it has 2 fuel tanks as standard what do i do now apart 
from change engine to a later model with vicron seals.Im having to buy a new 
injector eny way and there not cheep! So don't want to risk damaging the new 
one.

Eny idears?


-
Want to chat instantly with your online friends?ÊGet the FREE Yahoo!Messenger

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



 Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-->
Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark
Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US & Canada.
http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511
http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/FGYolB/TM
-~->

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Biofuels list archives:
http://archive.nnytech.net/

Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address.
To unsubscribe, send an email to:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ 

Re: [biofuel] Biodiesel in demand after Nevada debut

[Keith Addison]

>http://www.amestrib.com/site/news.cfm?BRD=2035&dept_id=238095&newsid= 
>10408883&PAG=461&rfi=9
>
>Have not heard any word recently on Diesel engine makers for farmers 
>and others
>doing a better job of certifying their engines to be warrantied 
>using more than
>a 5% mixture.  Pity.  Have never heard the issue raised by anyone 
>in, or opposed
>to, the present Administration.  It's as though it's an issue of zero
>importance.

... especially considering that industrialized agriculture (a.k.a., 
wrongly, "conventional" agriculture) is a major user of fossil fuels 
and source of greenhouse gas emissions.

Keith


 Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-->
Rent DVDs Online - Over 14,500 titles.
No Late Fees & Free Shipping.
Try Netflix for FREE!
http://us.click.yahoo.com/vhSowB/XP.FAA/3jkFAA/FGYolB/TM
-~->

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Biofuels list archives:
http://archive.nnytech.net/

Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address.
To unsubscribe, send an email to:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ 

RE: [biofuel] What vehicle are you running on biodiesel?

[Franklin B. Del Rosario]

Toyota Revo type 2L 2.4 diesel engine 1998 model running at B100 and as
lube oil for two stroke engine Yamaha 1983 model 125 cc mixed with 5%
bidoesel (1:20) still running under observation initial result change
spark plug and clean gasoline tank because biodiesel and gasoline mixed
remove residue to gas tank, fouling the carburetor. motor was running
smoothly as before, smoke improved because no more 2T lube oil.

Frank  

-Original Message-
From: Appal Energy [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Monday, October 27, 2003 7:10 AM
To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [biofuel] What vehicle are you running on biodiesel?

Ford F-250 and VW Golf.

- Original Message - 
From: "Mark Finewood" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Sunday, October 26, 2003 12:32 PM
Subject: [biofuel] What vehicle are you running on biodiesel?


> I am curiouse about what vehicles people are running on biodiesel?
>
> Let me know.
>
> Mark
>
>
>
>
> Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
> http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
>
> Biofuels list archives:
> http://archive.nnytech.net/
>
> Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address.
> To unsubscribe, send an email to:
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>



Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Biofuels list archives:
http://archive.nnytech.net/

Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address.
To unsubscribe, send an email to:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ 




 Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-->
Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark
Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US & Canada.
http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511
http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/FGYolB/TM
-~->

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Biofuels list archives:
http://archive.nnytech.net/

Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address.
To unsubscribe, send an email to:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ 

Re: [biofuel] open flame heat sourses (was: aaron--don't do it)

[Keith Addison]

Hi Aaron

>Todd: Of course I would use a closed loop heat exchanger. Good call on the
>differences of wood flames and propane flames, though.  On the other hand,
>there's information on the JTF website about using milk cartons with
>sawdust and byproduct. It's under the glycerine section.  Is anyone
>using these to heat their oil, and if so, how are those
>used to heat in a way that can be immediately shut off?

I didn't think someone might try to do that to heat the biodiesel 
process direct, it'd be far too awkward and uncontrollable. Those 
glyc "logs" burn fiercely! I didn't think anyone would try using a 
plain woodfire either. People use the glyc logs in woodfires and 
woodstoves for space heating, the JtF ref refers to heating 80 litres 
of water - a bath, in fact. Obviously it *can't* be immediately shut 
off, which would preclude any idea of using it for direct process 
heat. I see I shall have to include a warning about this.

In my previous message to you I suggested using the glyc logs, but 
specified it was to heat your wood stove, not direct, using a closed 
loop heat exchanger, and I also specified closed processors.

>On a slightly different note, is there anyone turning off the heat
>entirely before adding the methoxide/ethanol equivalent? This would be
>ideal because it could eliminate the need to heat the mixing tank if the
>oil were pre-heated.

Once you've got it up to process temp (say 55 deg C - 130F), added 
the methoxide and processing starts, it doesn't require much extra 
heat to keep it at that temp (unless the ambient temp's unreasonably 
low). I'm not certain about this but I have the idea that the process 
itself releases heat, enough to help, at least. (Does anyone know if 
this is so and if so how it works?) Mark, for one, wraps her 
processor in many layers of insulation.

Tom Leue said the thermostat failed, so it wasn't an open-flame heat 
source but electrical heating. If anything, a rheostat would be 
better than a thermostat. Thermostats keep switching the power on and 
off to keep the temperature ranging as little as possible either side 
of what you're aiming at, which puts a strain on everything 
concerned, IMO. A rheostat, once set, won't do that.

>(I'm particularly interested if this would work for
>any rendition of the Foolproof method my Aleks Kac.)

You're attracted by ethanol and by the acid-base method, as many 
people are. Have you made any biodiesel yet? It's always advised, at 
least at JtF and here, that both using ethanol to make biodiesel and 
the two-stage processes are not for novices, these are advanced 
methods. It's not just idle advice, it's sound advice from many 
experienced users. Start at the beginning, learn the basic skills, ie 
the single-stage process using methanol, then move on to more complex 
techniques when you have some experience, if you wish. Start here:
"Where do I start?"
http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_make.html#start

Anyway, the first stage of the acid-base method needs the temp 
maintained for an hour, but the second stage for 1.5-2.5 hours, maybe 
not so easy just on pre-heating.

>Todd: I'm actually not entirely sure what you mean by the following:
>
>No matter what you use as an open flame heat source TIGHT BUILDINGS
>ARE A MUST! 
>
>Do you mean that the reactor MUST be located inside a tight building? Many
>people have reactors outside. Next possibility: if you use an open flame
>heat source, the flame must be in a tight building, with no fuel in it. In
>your opinion, is there a safe distance to separate the processor/fuel
>storage from an open flame heat source if the whole thing is done under a
>roof only?
>Now, it seems that some folks are using oil burners to
>heat their fuel. What is an oil burner that is NOT an open flame heat
>source? Or maybe a better question for you would be, what is the
>difference between a metal box with one inlet and one outlet and a similar
>metal box that burns wood?
>
>quote from glycerin section of journey to forever.
>http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_glycerin.html#burn
>
>"Some biodiesel brewers are burning the by-product raw to provide heat for
>the biodiesel process. They use pot burners with a forced air supply piped
>in from an external fan. There are various designs being used, and a
>variety of ways of controlling the fuel supply and pre-heating the
>by-product so it flows evenly to the burner. "

These are not "oil burners" per se, they're the "Turk" burners I 
referred you to earlier. I also mentioned the MEN waste oil heater 
(for space heating), a different animal, not instantly controllable, 
and not recommended for providing process heat, though like a wood 
stove it could be harnessed to a closed-loop heat exchanger from a 
distance. Turk-type burners are more controllable, or can be, though 
not as much so as propane, say, but the same rule applies as with all 
open-flame heat sources - use a heat exchanger and a CLOSED processor.

>Question for anyone: if yo

[biofuel] Re: open flame heat sourses (was: aaron--don't do it)

[skillshare]

> On a slightly different note, is there anyone turning off the heat
> entirely before adding the methoxide/ethanol equivalent? This would 
be
> ideal because it could eliminate the need to heat the mixing tank if 
the
> oil were pre-heated. (I'm particularly interested if this would work 
for
> any rendition of the Foolproof method my Aleks Kac.)
> 
> 


Almost all of the time you would turn off the heat before adding 
methoxide, so it's pretty hard to blow anything up even with an open 
flame nearby unless you neglect a few things at once (like your pilot 
ight in a gas heater!) and you have a problematic system in the first 
place (such as an inadequately sealed processor). The exception to the 
rule of turning off the heat before introducing methoxide, might be 
heating during the reaction in deep winter in an unheated space- where 
adding cold methoxide to hot oil will drop it's temperature too low.

What's too low, you may ask? 

Some oils will have problems with conversion unless the heat is pushed 
quite high. SOmetimes people claim that stirring for longer periods 
compensates completely for low temperatures, but I and others have 
found that this doesn't always work with certain oils- you really need 
the heat to deal with this stuff (there's a thread on Maui/infopop 
called 'suspended white stuff' or 'suspended stuff free at last' or 
something like that which describes a typical poor-conversion 
troubleshooting experience which was finally solved by heat. I had a 
very very similar experience last winter myself). 
Temperature, and it's impact on conversion with some oils, is half of 
the reason why sometimes beginners will have problems (emulsion 
formation in bubblewash) washing for months, but find that once summer 
comes along, the washing problems go away  (the other half of that 
issue is that higher ambient temperatures affects ease of washing as 
well as affecting good conversion) 
However, unless you're working outdoors in deep winter, you USUALLY 
dont' need to heat during the reaction- use lots of insulation instead 
so it doesnt' go cold during the reaction (my other broken record 
mantra, besides 'build a fumeless system',  is 'use lots of 
insulation'). lots of insulation is something like 5 inches of it 
taped on a processor. The more insulation the merrieer. I use recycled 
bubblewrap trashpicked from the local gift shop dumpsters down the 
street, and I tape it all over to a thickness of 5 inches. My 
processors sometimes look like the Michelin Tire man.  

Again, most of these potential dangers of fire or explosion are 
absolutely minimised if you use a sealed system and don't create any 
explosive/toxic atmospheres in  the work area in the first place. This 
is EASY to achieve (fumeless equipment that is)




 Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-->
Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark
Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US & Canada.
http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511
http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/FGYolB/TM
-~->

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Biofuels list archives:
http://archive.nnytech.net/

Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address.
To unsubscribe, send an email to:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/