Re: [Biofuel] Major Global Warming Report Puts Value on Human Life

[Thomas Irwin]

 By George Monbiot, Monbiot.com. Posted February 21, 2008.
>
> And the richer you are, the more yours is worth.




Greetings all,


This strikes me as being the business as usual model for governments and
corporations to do anything they want whenever they want. It seems that
everyone will pay for airport infrastucture but only the well to do will get
the benefit by using it. Climate change only matters if it effects the
bottom line. It disgusts me. A part of me wants the whole bloody thing to
collapse so we can begin the task of actually building things right, by
making the world life supporting.

Tom Irwin
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Re: [Biofuel] Consumers can and will pay more for food

[Chip Mefford]

Kirk McLoren wrote:

>   If you want cheaper food you have to break the stranglehold the 
> corporations have on distribution.


I'm sorry, but this level of rhetoric is just getting to be too much for me.

Cheaper food? You want CHEAPER food?

The base food in the US is already so cheap, that folks go out
of businesses trying to produce it. Cheaper?

The most sensible discussion I've ever heard on the cost of food
revolved around keeping the price of food artificially low, so
that only large scale industrial approaches could be considered
viable, and low production high quality (read small farm) approaches
were doomed to economic failure.

This approach 'frees' up lots of 'consumer dollars' to go other more
important things, like HDTVs and iPhones, new SUVs, granite counter 
topped trophy kitchens (that never get used) rather than nutrition and 
health.

Please note that I am only speaking of the USA. My first hand knowledge 
outside there is really weak. I've not even set foot outside the USA
in over 20 years.

Stranglehold? You mean the stranglehold of desiring only the one 
criteria of cheap perhaps. That's the only stranglehold I see them
having.

To grow high quality food is time consuming, and labor intensive.

You want it to be cheaper too?

So, the folks who work their asses off 50 weeks out of the year, 7 days
a week should earn less for their efforts at bringing nutritious high
quality food to market?

last time I was at a farmers market (and I go about every week) I didn't
see any corporation there strangling people.

But then again, the food wasn't cheap.

It was fairly priced.

Sorry, but that line really pushed my buttons.




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Re: [Biofuel] Consumers can and will pay more for food

[Chip Mefford]

Chris Burck wrote:
> artificially low prices and control of distribution are two sides of
> the same coin.  from seed to shelf, the same entities are running the
> game.  i didn't hear anyone suggesting farmer's markets are corporate
> controlled.


No.

What was suggested was that 'corporations' have a stranglehold on
distribution, and you want cheap food you have to break that
stranglehold.

That's what was not just suggested, that was clearly stated.

So, Farmer's Markets are not distribution then?

If there is no corporate stranglehold on Farmer's Markets, then
the food there should be cheaper, yes?

No. Food outside the corporate stranglehold isn't cheaper, it's
more expensive, it's also higher quality, better tasting and
considerably healthier.

It's all well and good to sit back and yell about corporate 
strangleholds and all that. Sure, there is plenty there to
yell about. At the end of the day, guess what? It doesn't matter.
If you haven't learned yet that 'corporations' aren't acting
in your best interest, then you just aren't going to learn it.

In most places in the US, you can source your food from within
your own 'food shed'. Yeah, that means no grapes for 89 cents a
pound in February, and you'll pay a serious premium for indoor
grown tomatoes this time of year. But if you canned the ones you
got when they were in season, you won't care.

Heck, you could grow some of it yourself.

Sheesh, if you are a meat eater, you can actually go source your
meat from CSAs, see how the animals live, meet your butcher, see
how it's prepared. you don't have to eat downer cows if you don't want
to. It'll cost more. The folks providing that food have to live too.

Is that wrong?

If the corporations weren't airfreighting in grapes from south america
to sell at Wallmart for .89 a pound, (with some gawdawful fuel load) 
then somehow that would make the februrary grapes cheaper?

Please.

Know farms,
Know food.


> 
> On 2/27/08, Chip Mefford <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> Kirk McLoren wrote:
>>
>>>   If you want cheaper food you have to break the stranglehold the
>> corporations have on distribution.
>>

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Re: [Biofuel] Consumers can and will pay more for food

[Chris Burck]

artificially low prices and control of distribution are two sides of
the same coin.  from seed to shelf, the same entities are running the
game.  i didn't hear anyone suggesting farmer's markets are corporate
controlled.

On 2/27/08, Chip Mefford <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Kirk McLoren wrote:
>
> >   If you want cheaper food you have to break the stranglehold the
> corporations have on distribution.
>
>
> I'm sorry, but this level of rhetoric is just getting to be too much for me.
>
> Cheaper food? You want CHEAPER food?
>
> The base food in the US is already so cheap, that folks go out
> of businesses trying to produce it. Cheaper?
>
> The most sensible discussion I've ever heard on the cost of food
> revolved around keeping the price of food artificially low, so
> that only large scale industrial approaches could be considered
> viable, and low production high quality (read small farm) approaches
> were doomed to economic failure.
>
> This approach 'frees' up lots of 'consumer dollars' to go other more
> important things, like HDTVs and iPhones, new SUVs, granite counter
> topped trophy kitchens (that never get used) rather than nutrition and
> health.
>
> Please note that I am only speaking of the USA. My first hand knowledge
> outside there is really weak. I've not even set foot outside the USA
> in over 20 years.
>
> Stranglehold? You mean the stranglehold of desiring only the one
> criteria of cheap perhaps. That's the only stranglehold I see them
> having.
>
> To grow high quality food is time consuming, and labor intensive.
>
> You want it to be cheaper too?
>
> So, the folks who work their asses off 50 weeks out of the year, 7 days
> a week should earn less for their efforts at bringing nutritious high
> quality food to market?
>
> last time I was at a farmers market (and I go about every week) I didn't
> see any corporation there strangling people.
>
> But then again, the food wasn't cheap.
>
> It was fairly priced.
>
> Sorry, but that line really pushed my buttons.
>
>
>
>
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Re: [Biofuel] Major Global Warming Report Puts Value on Human Life

[Chris Burck]

well, i don't know who this stern guy is, but it strikes me he may
full well have understood the implications of what he was doing.
reading monbiot's description, i was reminded of the kind of actuarial
analysis that goes on all the time (though hidden from view for
obvious reasons) in the private sector.  was this just one more
iteration for him?  or was this new territory and, lacking the
imagination, or, perhaps, the moral fortitude (or, worse still, the
humanity) necessary, he decided to borrow from the robber barons'
playbook?  well, maybe i'm not being totally fair to him, chalk it up
to my poor choice of reading this at 7:30 in the morning.  i guess i
should have gone out and shovelled that snow first!  but the reason it
makes me so angry is that it's such a stark indicator of just how
profoundly (and pervertedly) undemocratic our world is today.  global
warming is here.  the scientific community has been for some time at a
consensus on this, and now, finally, if reluctantly, so is the world
community.  but instead of "case closed," we're just getting more
bull.  the so-called public debate, it would seem, is nothing more
than a debate between the elites:  those who stand to take the biggest
hit if things get much warmer, and those who stand the most to gain.

On 2/27/08, Thomas Irwin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>  By George Monbiot, Monbiot.com. Posted February 21, 2008.
> >
> > And the richer you are, the more yours is worth.
>
>
>
>
> Greetings all,
>
>
> This strikes me as being the business as usual model for governments and
> corporations to do anything they want whenever they want. It seems that
> everyone will pay for airport infrastucture but only the well to do will get
> the benefit by using it. Climate change only matters if it effects the
> bottom line. It disgusts me. A part of me wants the whole bloody thing to
> collapse so we can begin the task of actually building things right, by
> making the world life supporting.
>
> Tom Irwin
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>
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> messages):
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Re: [Biofuel] doubling the fuel economy of the Ford Escape

[robert and benita]

Erik Lane wrote:


(Stopping Consumerism)

>Absolutely!! I've got a little 81 VW diesel and I get a kick out of
>getting better mileage than the hybrid drivers on the street.
>

You're burning fuel that has quite a bit more energy per liter than 
gasoline.  It can be squeezed harder, too, so the diesel cycle is more 
efficient.  I've read some less than enthusiastic commentary about 
hybrids in this forum, but nothing that's been written by anyone who 
actually owns one.  I do, however, and I can honestly say that my Toyota 
hybrid is a BIG improvement over conventional gasoline vehicles.  My 
Camry burns roughly half the fuel of my 4 cylinder Ranger, though both 
vehicles are of similar mass and displacement.  (The engine in the Camry 
is actually a little bit bigger.)  Though I'd like to see the machine 
released of its dependence on the engine and able to operate at a wider 
range of speeds using the electric motor, I DO understand that Toyota 
isn't marketing the hybrids for people like me.  Hybrids are being built 
for a market that doesn't understand how an EV works.  People are 
terrified that they'll be stranded somewhere with dead batteries if they 
own an EV.

But where can I find a suitable EV?  I've been thinking about saving 
up for an older Prius and using IT as the base for an EV conversion when 
my eldest son is old enough to drive . . .

> But it also REALLY annoys me that a 26 year old car is still the best tech
>out there (at least for us americans) as far as efficiency. Yes, the
>newer VW diesels can also get a very good mileage, and sometimes
>better than mine. Definitely more power. But that's with a new car,
>with a lot of increased costs and complications across the board. A
>quarter of a century later we should have a vehicle that would be
>similar to what I have now as far as size/weight, but with a minimum
>of twice the efficiency! IMO
>  
>

We'd have to abandon the conventional way of making the automobile.  
We'd have to drastically reduce its mass, increase aerodynamics and 
radically improve the efficiency of getting power to the wheels.  All of 
this can be done, but really, even at $1.20 per liter (which I've been 
paying around here lately!) gasoline is still too cheap to warrant all 
that bother.  I watch the way people drive on the freeway and it's 
evident that fuel economy is something people like to complain about, 
but they'd rather DO NOTHING about.  Simply driving slower would help.  
Not driving at all would be even better.

I work from home now.  It's radically cut the amount of money my 
family spends on fuel every month, yet we're STILL dependent on the 
automobile because there is simply no other practical way to get around 
where I live.  Until THAT issue is addressed, we'll continue to be stuck 
using a car.

>I don't have an easy answer, but I strongly suspect that it's all
>being hidden from us.
>

There is no magical solution, despite the claims of vapor carb and 
fuel magnet enthusiasts.  It's plain physics that energy moves from a 
state of high order to a state of low order.  The physics aren't really 
the issue.  Human behavior is the problem.

> Only thing I can do is hope to make a little
>positive difference once I get an engineering degree. I'm going back
>to school with a plan of one day either designing machines to help
>with SMALL, sustainable farming, or improving efficiency in other
>things. Not that just buying things is an answer.
>

Sometimes we HAVE to buy things.  Being "societally forced" into an 
automobile culture meant that for us, when our last car died we simply 
had to replace it.  The Camry is cheaper for us to own than a comparable 
used car because the financing and tax incentives make it so.  These are 
human factors that are built into the financial system to promote the 
continuing sale of new machinery.  "It keeps the economy going," is a 
mantra often repeated to justify such policies.

> I don't know. But it
>would be nice to have better options. I'm pretty happy that my area is
>putting in hundreds of miles of bike paths so people can commute
>safely by bicycle. I'd like to use them - right now it's downright
>dangerous to ride on many streets in the area.
>  
>

Getting out of the car is the real solution to this issue, but the 
automobile represents freedom and lifestyle that people are unwilling to 
give up.  A few weeks ago, someone sent me an e-mail urging me to 
boycott PetroCan stations because doing so would allegedly use "market 
forces" to drive down the price of gasoline.  I replied to the message 
stating that all this would do is hurt the local service station owners, 
and that if the public wants lower prices, they simply have to drive 
less, or not at all.

But that doesn't seem like a very popular message!

robert luis rabello
"The Edge of Justice"
"The Long Journey"
New Adventure for Your Mind
http://www.newadventure.ca

Ranger Supercharger Project Page
http://www.members

Re: [Biofuel] doubling the fuel economy of the Ford Escape

[Mike Pelly]

cietally forced" into an 
automobile culture meant that for us, when our last car died we simply 
had to replace it.  The Camry is cheaper for us to own than a comparable 
used car because the financing and tax incentives make it so.  These are 
human factors that are built into the financial system to promote the 
continuing sale of new machinery.  "It keeps the economy going," is a 
mantra often repeated to justify such policies.

> I don't know. But it
>would be nice to have better options. I'm pretty happy that my area is
>putting in hundreds of miles of bike paths so people can commute
>safely by bicycle. I'd like to use them - right now it's downright
>dangerous to ride on many streets in the area.
>  
>

Getting out of the car is the real solution to this issue, but the 
automobile represents freedom and lifestyle that people are unwilling to 
give up.  A few weeks ago, someone sent me an e-mail urging me to 
boycott PetroCan stations because doing so would allegedly use "market 
forces" to drive down the price of gasoline.  I replied to the message 
stating that all this would do is hurt the local service station owners, 
and that if the public wants lower prices, they simply have to drive 
less, or not at all.

But that doesn't seem like a very popular message!

robert luis rabello
"The Edge of Justice"
"The Long Journey"
New Adventure for Your Mind
http://www.newadventure.ca

Ranger Supercharger Project Page
http://www.members.shaw.ca/rabello/


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Re: [Biofuel] doubling the fuel economy of the Ford Escape

[robert and benita]

Mike Pelly wrote:

>  Any hybrid electric vehicle is an improvement over conventional drive train 
> configurations, But as long as the vehicle continues to either carburate or 
> Fuel inject the gasoline into the intake manifold with the fuel still at 
> ambient temperature, that engine is loosing out on an incredible ability to 
> stretch the fuel millage to its full potential. We are overlooking the 
> biggest and lowest hanging fruits for increasing fuel efficiency as well as 
> cleaning up exhaust emissions and Most Importantly, lowering the creation of 
> Global Warming CO2 emissions from vehicle emissions. 
>  Time to get this magic uncorked from the bottle the oil and auto 
> manufactures have been keeping it in for the past 75 years. The first car 
> company to start offering this option on their vehicles, will  be able to  
> sprint ahead of the others in sales in a short order of time. To learn more 
> about vaporized gasoline (probably will work for diesel fuel and some 
> biofuels too) visit   www.byronwine.com 
>  
>

I've looked there.  I've also actually RUN vehicles on vapor, and 
the maths don't add up.  The improvements to which you refer don't exist 
in the real world.

robert luis rabello
"The Edge of Justice"
"The Long Journey"
New Adventure for Your Mind
http://www.newadventure.ca

Ranger Supercharger Project Page
http://www.members.shaw.ca/rabello/


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[Biofuel] Anyone on this list making ethanol?

[Stratis Bahaveolos]

Is anyone on the list involved in the making of ethanol?

If so are you producing it for personal use?

Selling on a small scale?

If selling, how did you get around the testing issues that forces out Thomas
Leue from Ashford to close his fryer-oil refinery after the Environmental
Protection Agency refused to allow him to register his biodiesel fuel and
sell it to power vehicles unless he first tests its health effects?

Are you using at still or are you making ethanol from cellolose by acid
hydrolysis?

>From the archive I saw: "Producing ethanol from cellolose by acid hydrolysis
is a long-established method still used all over the world, and it's still
the only method available to backyarders, though that could change anytime
with new enzymes and new techniques being developed."

So are there any backyarders here using this method?  If so, how is it
working for you?

Has this changed with new enzymes and or techniques as the original post
implied are are we still waiting?

If using a still, is corn the main feedstock for "backyarders"?




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[Biofuel] Anyone on this list making ethanol?

[Stratis Bahaveolos]

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of
Chip Mefford
Sent: Wednesday, February 27, 2008 9:18 AM
To: sustainablelorgbiofuel@sustainablelists.org
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Consumers can and will pay more for food


Chris Burck wrote:
> artificially low prices and control of distribution are two sides of
> the same coin.  from seed to shelf, the same entities are running the
> game.  i didn't hear anyone suggesting farmer's markets are corporate
> controlled.


No.

What was suggested was that 'corporations' have a stranglehold on
distribution, and you want cheap food you have to break that
stranglehold.

That's what was not just suggested, that was clearly stated.

So, Farmer's Markets are not distribution then?

If there is no corporate stranglehold on Farmer's Markets, then
the food there should be cheaper, yes?

No. Food outside the corporate stranglehold isn't cheaper, it's
more expensive, it's also higher quality, better tasting and
considerably healthier.

It's all well and good to sit back and yell about corporate
strangleholds and all that. Sure, there is plenty there to
yell about. At the end of the day, guess what? It doesn't matter.
If you haven't learned yet that 'corporations' aren't acting
in your best interest, then you just aren't going to learn it.

In most places in the US, you can source your food from within
your own 'food shed'. Yeah, that means no grapes for 89 cents a
pound in February, and you'll pay a serious premium for indoor
grown tomatoes this time of year. But if you canned the ones you
got when they were in season, you won't care.

Heck, you could grow some of it yourself.

Is anyone on the list involved in the making of ethanol?

If so are you producing it for personal use?

Selling on a small scale?

If selling, how did you get around the testing issues that forces out Thomas
Leue from Ashford to close his fryer-oil refinery after the Environmental
Protection Agency refused to allow him to register his biodiesel fuel and
sell it to power vehicles unless he first tests its health effects?

Are you using at still or are you making ethanol from cellolose by acid
hydrolysis?

>From the archive I saw: "Producing ethanol from cellolose by acid hydrolysis
is a long-established method still used all over the world, and it's still
the only method available to backyarders, though that could change anytime
with new enzymes and new techniques being developed."

So are there any backyarders here using this method?  If so, how is it
working for you?

Has this changed with new enzymes and or techniques as the original post
implied are are we still waiting?

If using a still, is corn the main feedstock for "backyarders"?



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Re: [Biofuel] solid fuel topics

[Keith Addison]

Hi Jason

>OK. quick question. Which makes more sense when dealing with american corn?;

You mean there's something about American corn that makes sense? :-)

>1) make liquid fuels (ethanol, butanol, corn oil diesel) and 
>fertilizer out of it,

Fertilizer? The ethanol will give you DDG, which is better livestock 
feed than the grain is (but not to be compared with pasture), and the 
livestock will give you manure, which you can compost; biodiesel from 
the corn oil comes with the option of reclaiming some potassium 
phosphates from the by-product - is that what you mean?

>2) make gaseous fuels (methane or syngas)and fertilizer,

Aerobic digester sludge is said to be a fertilizer, but it has to be 
hot-composted first or it'll kill the soil life.

>or 3) burn it in a pellet stove and compost the ashes?
>
>we have a pretty round consensus on this list that its not fit to eat (GM),

Nor for livestock to eat, but then livestock shouldn't be raised that 
way anyway.

>so what should we do with it after the rest of the world finishes 
>banning imports of it? i highly doubt farmers will stop growing it, 
>so it should be pennies per ton in the future (unless ethanol goes 
>ahead as planned).

I'm sure it will. Well, it is.

>  and finally, on that GM note, does composting destroy/dissociate 
>genetic material?

Yes, as I understand it - properly controlled thermophilic aerobic 
composting, that is.

Re your three choices, why choose? Which is more useful probably 
depends on the circumstances. One could imagine a farm using all 
three.

Best

Keith




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Re: [Biofuel] Major Global Warming Report Puts Value on Human Life

[Keith Addison]

Hello Chris, Tom and all

>well, i don't know who this stern guy is,

You should know that, the Stern Review was (is) a major event - I 
wouldn't say it's any less important than Gore's "Inconvenient Truth" 
(and a lot more substantial).

>but it strikes me he may
>full well have understood the implications of what he was doing.

I don't think so. Well, I'm sure he understood the implications, but 
I doubt he foresaw the cynical way it's being used.

>reading monbiot's description, i was reminded of the kind of actuarial
>analysis that goes on all the time (though hidden from view for
>obvious reasons) in the private sector.  was this just one more
>iteration for him?  or was this new territory and, lacking the
>imagination, or, perhaps, the moral fortitude (or, worse still, the
>humanity) necessary, he decided to borrow from the robber barons'
>playbook?

I think you should read the Review. It's much concerned with the 
moral and ethical issues, several reports said it "highlights" the 
ethical issues.

>well, maybe i'm not being totally fair to him,

No.

>chalk it up
>to my poor choice of reading this at 7:30 in the morning.  i guess i
>should have gone out and shovelled that snow first!  but the reason it
>makes me so angry is that it's such a stark indicator of just how
>profoundly (and pervertedly) undemocratic our world is today.  global
>warming is here.  the scientific community has been for some time at a
>consensus on this, and now, finally, if reluctantly, so is the world
>community.  but instead of "case closed," we're just getting more
>bull.  the so-called public debate, it would seem, is nothing more
>than a debate between the elites:  those who stand to take the biggest
>hit if things get much warmer, and those who stand the most to gain.

It's more than 20 years since James Hansen addressed the US Senate on 
climate change, 20 years wasted while all the little Neros fiddled to 
protect their bottom line and poured billions more tons of CO2 into 
the atmosphere. They haven't stopped fiddling yet (even though Rupert 
Murdoch bought a hybrid car last year).

Here's another take on it:

>But the false solution that I think
>we need to pay particular attention to is the dominant solution in
>terms of carbon trading. Because at the philosophical level, at the
>world-view level, it's the second privatization of the atmospheric
>commons. The first privatization was putting the pollution into the
>atmosphere beyond the earth's recycling capacity. Now with carbon
>trading, the rights to the earth's carbon cycling capacity are
>gravitating exactly into the arms of the polluters. The environmental
>principal used to be the polluter must pay. Carbon trading is
>transforming that into the polluter gets paid.
>
>[Sir Nicholas] Stern, who did the Stern Review, has clearly said it
>is an allocation of a full set of property rights to the atmosphere.
>And PricewaterhouseCoopers -- who was very notorious in trying to
>privatize, with the World Bank's help, Delhi's water supply, and we
>defeated them two years ago in that project -- has said that trade in
>carbon emissions is equated with the transfer of similar rights such
>as copyrights, patents, licensing rights, commercial and industrial
>standards.
>
>One of the things we have always said in [the International Forum on
>Globalization] is that the enclosures of the commons is one of the
>deep crises of resource depletion. Once resources move out of common
>management and public care, they will get further degraded. And if
>you really look at the clean development mechanism, it's all about
>dirty industry; it's about HCFC plants being accelerated, new plants
>being set up in China and India. The biggest recipients of CDM
>credits in China and India are plants that are depleting the ozone
>layer. Sponge iron plants coming up in the tribal belts of India, in
>Chhattisgarh, Jharkhand, and Orissa. And clean seems to have become
>such a confusing word. We would have thought that we know what clean
>is. And suddenly, everything dirty is clean.

http://www.mail-archive.com/sustainablelorgbiofuel@sustainablelists.org/msg71144.html
How to Address Humanity's Global Crises? Challenge Corporate Power,
Embrace True Democracy
By Vandana Shiva, AlterNet
Posted on October 1, 2007

>On 2/27/08, Thomas Irwin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>   By George Monbiot, Monbiot.com. Posted February 21, 2008.
>>  >
>  > > And the richer you are, the more yours is worth.
>  >
>  > Greetings all,
>  >
>>  This strikes me as being the business as usual model for governments and
>>  corporations to do anything they want whenever they want. It seems that
>>  everyone will pay for airport infrastucture but only the well to do will get
>>  the benefit by using it. Climate change only matters if it effects the
>>  bottom line. It disgusts me. A part of me wants the whole bloody thing to
>>  collapse so we can begin the task of actually building things right, by
>  > making the world life s

[Biofuel] Branson's coconut airways - but jet is on a flight to nowhere, say critics

[Keith Addison]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2008/feb/25/biofuels.theairlineindustry

Branson's coconut airways - but jet is on a flight to nowhere, say critics

Environmental groups raise doubts over plane that runs partly on biofuel

*   Sam Jones and Dan Milmo

*   The Guardian, Monday February 25 2008

Virgin Atlantic's 747 at Heathrow airport ready to take off to 
Amsterdam for the first biofuel flight by an airline. Photograph: 
Steve Parsons/PA

A little after 11.30 yesterday morning, a Boeing 747 running on jet 
fuel and the oil from 150,000 coconuts parted company with the runway 
at Heathrow and slipped into a hazy blue sky.

Forty minutes later, the first commercial aircraft to be powered 
partly by biofuel touched down at Schiphol airport in Amsterdam, 
paving the way for what some claim could be a revolution in 
environmentally responsible aviation.

The experiment was the brainchild of the Virgin Atlantic boss, Sir 
Richard Branson, who hailed the flight as a "historic occasion" and 
the first step towards using biofuels on commercial flights. Three of 
the 747's four tanks were filled with normal jet fuel while its 
fourth carried a mixture that was 80% jet fuel and 20% coconut and 
babassu palm oil.

"Today marks a biofuel breakthrough for the whole airline industry," 
Branson told a press conference held next to the aircraft in a 
Heathrow hangar. "Virgin Atlantic, and its partners, are proving that 
you can find an alternative to traditional jet fuel and fly a plane 
on new technology, such as sustainable biofuel."

Branson has pledged to invest profits from his transport empire in 
biofuel production, but serious doubts have already been raised. 
Critics argue that biofuels damage developing countries by driving up 
food prices and harm the environment by encouraging deforestation.

The Heathrow trial, in partnership with Boeing, engine maker General 
Electric, and Imperium Renewables, attempted to assuage those 
concerns by using biofuel made from coconut oil harvested from 
existing plantations in the Philippines and oil from babassu palms, 
which grow wild in Brazil.

However, Branson admitted that the biofuel mix that partially powered 
yesterday's flight would not be used commercially.

Wild ideas

Land given to coconut plantations would have to be vastly expanded to 
satisfy the demands of aviation, resulting in deforestation, while 
the babassu palms used in yesterday's experiment are not available in 
sufficient numbers.

The airline industry, he added, would probably have to turn to algae 
in its search for viable biofuels. Algae are grown in ponds rather 
than on land, so they do not require deforestation or take space that 
could be used for food crops.

Branson said: "This pioneering flight will enable those of us who are 
serious about reducing our carbon emissions to go on developing the 
fuels of the future, fuels which will power our aircraft in the years 
ahead through sustainable next-generation oils, such as algae."

Environmental groups have warned that processing algae may produce 
more carbon dioxide than is saved by using it as an alternative fuel. 
There are also concerns that algae will compete for fresh-water 
sources as the ponds evaporate and have to be topped up.

Tim Jones, a policy officer at the World Development Movement, said 
the minimal amount of biofuel used in the trial underlined the 
difficulty of reducing emissions within the aviation industry. "It 
only reduces carbon dioxide emissions by 20% and there is no 
technology available that allows us to fly without making emissions."

Kenneth Richter, Friends of the Earth aviation campaigner, said: 
"Biofuels are a major distraction in the fight against climate 
change. There is mounting evidence that the carbon savings from 
biofuels are negligible. If Virgin was really serious about reducing 
the aviation industry's impact on the environment it would support 
calls for aircraft emissions to be included in the climate change 
bill."

Aircraft account for 5.5% of UK carbon dioxide emissions and Virgin 
Atlantic is not the first aviation group to experiment with 
alternative fuels. Earlier this month, the jet manufacturer Airbus 
flew an A380 superjumbo with a mix of gas-to-liquid fuel.

A much-trumpeted biofuels trial at Virgin Trains was abandoned last 
year after the group lost its CrossCountry franchise. A Virgin Trains 
spokesman said the company was "considering" whether to launch a new 
trial on the West Coast route.

Concerns about biofuels have spread to mainstream transport companies 
including National Express, which abandoned a biofuel trial for its 
buses amid fears that it was causing more harm than good to the 
environment.

The government acknowledged those concerns last week when it ordered 
a review of the environmental and economic impact of biofuels.

The transport secretary, Ruth Kelly, said the government might not 
support an EU proposal to increase the proportion

Re: [Biofuel] Consumers can and will pay more for food

[Keith Addison]

Hello John

>As many of us know, the earth's ability to supply resources for 6
>billion people has reached it's limit.  Now it's which end use these
>resources are assigned.  Food or fuel?  More of one means less of the
>other.  We are in decline.

Then many of us know wrong. It's not true, and it doesn't take a lot 
of research to establish that.

What has been reached, long since, is the earth's ability to supply 
resources to feed the twin black holes of rich-country consumerism 
and the global corporate pillaging that depends on it (and created it 
and maintains it).

About 1.2 billion people go hungry, but that's not because of a 
shortage of food. There's more than enough food for everybody, more 
food per capita than there's ever been before. They're hungry because 
that's how the industrial food production and distribution system 
works - they simply get shoved aside, out of the picture.

The food vs fuel controversy also falls apart when you have a closer 
look. Sustainable food production and sustainable fuel production are 
compatible, even complementary, and can supply the needs of a much 
bigger population than 6 billion. But not if we leave it to the 
business-as-usual folks either to do it for us or to dictate the way 
we live.

See eg.:

Myth 3: Too Many Mouths to Feed

Best

Keith


>Keith Addison wrote:
>>  Brownfield:  Ag News of America
>>
>>  Consumers can and will pay more for food
>>  Monday, February 25, 2008, 3:12 PM
>>
>>  by Peter Shinn
>>
>>  For the past 11 years, the American Farm Bureau Federation has
>>  celebrated the fact that Americans generally pay around 10% of their
>>  total income for food, the lowest total of any nation on earth, with
>>  an event called "Food Checkout Day." It's typically held in the first
>>  week of February to symbolize the number of days the average American
>>  has to work in order to earn enough money to pay for their food bill.
>>  But due to a wide range of factors, it looks like that date may have
>>  to be pushed back next year.
>>
>>  In fact, U.S. consumers have enjoyed steady to declining food prices,
>>  at least in real terms, for many years. That's according to Bill
>>  Lapp, President of Advanced Economic Solutions, who says those good
>>  times for American food consumers are over, most likely forever.
>>
>>  Lapp, the former leading economist for ConAgra, told Brownfield bread
>>  prices rose over 10% in 2007 and are likely to do at least that again
>>  this year. He added other food prices will also head higher as food
>>  manufacturers increasingly pass on the costs of high commodities to
>>  consumers. The good news, Lapp said, is that most U.S. consumers can
>>  afford to pay up, even if they won't have much choice in the matter.
>>
>>  "I think consumers are more prepared than we realize to accept higher
>>  prices on food and I think that's part of our future," Lapp
>>  predicted. "It's largely been set in stone for us already."
>>
>>  "Set in stone" because the factors that have driven ag commodity
>>  prices sharply higher since August of 2006 haven't changed. And
>>  according to Lapp, who spoke Friday at USDA's Ag Outlook Forum, those
>>  factors are manifold.
>>
>>  "The risk of weather and a 5% increase in world coarse grain demand
>>  and still strong global economic growth and [biofuels] mandates from
>>  the government all suggest," Lapp said, "that the bonfire that we've
>>  started is still going strong."
>>
>>  All that, Lapp emphasized, makes robust U.S. crop production this
>>  year critically important. He called the consequences of a potential
>>  10% cut in this year's corn crop due to drought "scary." And he said
>>  it may be a number of years before technological advances that
>>  improve yields boost crop production enough to generate surpluses in
>>  the face of the strong demand factors he listed.
>>
>>  "There's a lot of things in the pipeline - some of the new varieties
>>  and their resistance to drought have really benefited the industry,"
>  > Lapp pointed out. "But it's going to take a while and the first thing
>  > we have to do is attract more acreage into production and eventually
>>  we can have those yields," he added. "And again, of course, we're
>>  always vulnerable on a year-to-year basis from weather-caused yield
>>  declines."
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>  ___
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>>  Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
>>  http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel
>>
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>>  http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
>>
>>  Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 
>>messages):
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>>
>>
>>  
>
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Re: [Biofuel] Anyone on this list making ethanol?

[Keith Addison]

Hello Stratis

>Is anyone on the list involved in the making of ethanol?

Yes, many, but they might not want to admit it.

>If so are you producing it for personal use?
>
>Selling on a small scale?
>
>If selling, how did you get around the testing issues that forces out Thomas
>Leue from Ashford to close his fryer-oil refinery after the Environmental
>Protection Agency refused to allow him to register his biodiesel fuel and
>sell it to power vehicles unless he first tests its health effects?

First, that's got nothing to do with ethanol. The NBB health effects 
data issue with small-scale biodiesel (not ethanol) production is a 
large and complicated subject (see "EPA hassle" in the archives), but 
in fact that wasn't Tom Leue's problem, which was that he hadn't paid 
his road taxes, and back taxes amounted to quite a lot. Anyway they 
didn't close him down.

>Are you using at still or are you making ethanol from cellolose by acid
>hydrolysis?

Acid hydrolysis isn't very economical, AFAIK, okay for small amounts probably.

>  >From the archive I saw: "Producing ethanol from cellolose by acid hydrolysis
>is a long-established method still used all over the world, and it's still
>the only method available to backyarders, though that could change anytime
>with new enzymes and new techniques being developed."
>
>So are there any backyarders here using this method?  If so, how is it
>working for you?
>
>Has this changed with new enzymes and or techniques as the original post
>implied are are we still waiting?

Ethanol from cellulose
http://journeytoforever.org/ethanol_link.html#cellulose

>If using a still, is corn the main feedstock for "backyarders"?

Biofuels Library
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel_library.html

Best

Keith

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[Biofuel] Non-GM Breakthroughs

[Keith Addison]

http://www.gmwatch.org/archive2.asp?arcid=8658

Non-GM Breakthroughs - 2007 (8/1/2008)

1.INTRO
2.ORGANIC RESEARCH
3.NON-GM BREAKTHROUGHS
4.MORE NON-GM DEVELOPMENTS

1.INTRO - GM WATCH

Does mention of allergen-free peanuts, striga-resistant cowpeas, 
salt-resistant wheat, beta-carotine rich sweet potatoes, 
virus-resistant cassavas make you think of GM?

If so, you've missed the great unpublished story of 2007 - all the 
non-GM breakthroughs with precisely the kind of problems 
(drought-resistance, salt-resistance, biofortification etc.) that GM 
proponents claim only GM can provide the answer to.

While GM ''miracle'' stories win vast amounts of column inches, the 
non-GM stories generally get minimal if any reporting in the popular 
media. Without GM's often exaggerated crisis narratives and silver 
bullet solutions, it seems there is no story!

The biotech industry and its PR people are, of course, very keen to 
keep it that way, particularly because the non-GM solutions are often 
way ahead of the work on GM. They also bring with them none of the 
uncertainties that surround GM.

All of this makes keeping track of some of the many non-GM success 
stories especially important.

Another reason it's important is because - thanks to the lack of 
success with GM ''solutions'' - non-GM success stories can end up 
being claimed as GM breakthroughs!!

This happened again recently with the UK Government's retiring Chief 
Scientist, David King, who claimed an important non-GM breakthrough 
in Africa as evidence of why we need to embrace GM.
http://www.gmwatch.org/archive2.asp?arcid=8624
http://www.gmwatch.org/archive2.asp?arcid=8618

The real lesson of the example King chose is that we need to do the 
exact opposite, ie stop being distracted by GM and get the funding 
and support behind the non-GM solutions to the problems we so badly 
need to address.

So here's some of the good things we came across on the non-GM front in 2007.

2. ORGANIC RESEARCH

+ ORGANIC FARMING CAN FEED THE WORLD - STUDY
Organic farming can yield up to three times as much food on 
individual farms in developing countries, as low-intensive methods on 
the same land - according to new findings which refute the 
long-standing claim that organic farming methods cannot produce 
enough food to feed the global population. ''My hope is that we can 
finally put a nail in the coffin of the idea that you can't produce 
enough food through organic agriculture,'' said Ivette Perfecto, 
professor at University of Michigan's School of Natural Resources and 
Environment, and one of the study's principal investigators.
http://www.gmwatch.org/archive2.asp?arcid=8107

+ ORGANIC FARMING COMBATS GLOBAL WARMING...
Big time, according to data from the Rodale Institute's long-running 
comparison of organic and conventional cropping systems. Converting 
the US's corn and soybean acres to organic production would sequester 
enough carbon to satisfy 73 percent of the Kyoto targets for CO2 
reduction in the US.
http://www.newfarm.org/depts/NFfield_trials/1003/carbonsequest.shtml

+ ORGANIC FARMING BEATS NO-TILL
Organic farming can build up soil organic matter better than 
conventional no-till farming, according to a long-term study by US 
Agricultural Research Service (ARS) scientists. Organic farming, 
despite its emphasis on building organic matter, was previously 
thought by some to endanger soil because it relies on tillage and 
cultivation - instead of herbicides - to kill weeds. But Teasdale's 
study showed that organic farming's addition of organic matter in 
manure and cover crops more than offset losses from tillage.
http://www.gmwatch.org/archive2.asp?arcid=8094

+ UN's FOOD AND AG ORG SUPPORTS ORGANIC
The United Nations Food and Agricultural Organisation (FAO) has come 
out in favour of organic agriculture. Its report, ''Organic 
Agriculture and Food Security'' states that organic agriculture can 
address local and global food security challenges.
http://www.gmwatch.org/archive2.asp?arcid=8268

+ ORGANIC FOOD BETTER
Important new research has shown up to 40% more beneficial compounds 
in organic vegetable crops and up to 90% more in organic milk. It has 
also found high levels of minerals such as iron and zinc in organic 
produce.
http://www.gmwatch.org/archive2.asp?arcid=8430

+ IT'S OFFICIAL: ORGANIC REALLY IS BETTER FOR YOU
A 10-year study comparing organic and non-organic tomatoes has found 
that the organic ones have almost twice the quantity of antioxidants 
(called flavonoids) that help to prevent high blood pressure, thus 
reducing the likelihood of heart disease and strokes.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/wine/main.jhtml?xml=/wine/2007/07/14/edorganic114.xml

+ GROWERS CAN MAKE MORE MONEY BY GOING ORGANIC
Minnesota grain farmers could make more money by switching from 
conventional to organic grain crops, shows a four-year study 
announced at the American Agricultural Economics Association's annual 
meeting in Long Beach, Calif. The study, by David

Re: [Biofuel] Anyone on this list making ethanol?

[Stratis Bahaveolos]

Keith

thanks for the reply.

I'm glad to hear Thomas Leue is still open.  If he was shut down, that would
have been a sad comment on the small business man and the US Gov.

Why would many not want to admit they are involved in making ethanol?

I'm going to check out the links you added for the other info!

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of
Keith Addison
Sent: Wednesday, February 27, 2008 1:06 PM
To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Anyone on this list making ethanol?


Hello Stratis

>Is anyone on the list involved in the making of ethanol?

Yes, many, but they might not want to admit it.

>If so are you producing it for personal use?
>
>Selling on a small scale?
>
>If selling, how did you get around the testing issues that forces out
Thomas
>Leue from Ashford to close his fryer-oil refinery after the Environmental
>Protection Agency refused to allow him to register his biodiesel fuel and
>sell it to power vehicles unless he first tests its health effects?

First, that's got nothing to do with ethanol. The NBB health effects
data issue with small-scale biodiesel (not ethanol) production is a
large and complicated subject (see "EPA hassle" in the archives), but
in fact that wasn't Tom Leue's problem, which was that he hadn't paid
his road taxes, and back taxes amounted to quite a lot. Anyway they
didn't close him down.

>Are you using at still or are you making ethanol from cellolose by acid
>hydrolysis?

Acid hydrolysis isn't very economical, AFAIK, okay for small amounts
probably.

>  >From the archive I saw: "Producing ethanol from cellolose by acid
hydrolysis
>is a long-established method still used all over the world, and it's still
>the only method available to backyarders, though that could change anytime
>with new enzymes and new techniques being developed."
>
>So are there any backyarders here using this method?  If so, how is it
>working for you?
>
>Has this changed with new enzymes and or techniques as the original post
>implied are are we still waiting?

Ethanol from cellulose
http://journeytoforever.org/ethanol_link.html#cellulose

>If using a still, is corn the main feedstock for "backyarders"?

Biofuels Library
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel_library.html

Best

Keith

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Re: [Biofuel] Anyone on this list making ethanol?

[Chip Mefford]

Stratis Bahaveolos wrote:
> Keith
> 
> thanks for the reply.
> 
> I'm glad to hear Thomas Leue is still open.  If he was shut down, that would
> have been a sad comment on the small business man and the US Gov.
> 
> Why would many not want to admit they are involved in making ethanol?

Here in the USA, private ethanol production is sketchy stuff. Our
earliest post-revolution civil wars were about ethanol production. We
continue this to this day.

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[Biofuel] re Anyone on this list making ethanol?

[Randy]

You can also check out Tony Akland's webpage http://www.homedistiller.org
Tony operates an informational webpage about the distillation of ethanol for
human consumption.  The principals involved aren't any different for fuel
ethanol except that you don't need to be as careful with the draw off points
since you wont be drinking it and you will be denaturing it IAW applicable
federal and state laws (wont you ?).  http://www.amphora-society.com   is a
combined effort by Mike Nixon and Mike McCaw  they are associated with Ian
Smiley.  The two Mikes are licensed professionals in Bio Chemistry and
Chemical Engineering respectively.  They have a book named "The Compleat
Distiller" (yes spelled differently) isbn 0-473-08135-0 which should be
considered a must-have for designing a home distillation apparatus.  Another
book by Mike Nixon and John Stone called "The Distillation of Alcohol: A
Professional Guide for Amateur Distillers" isbn 0-473-06608-4 is also a very
useful book for understanding the unique technical aspects of building a
still that isn't going to blow up in your face.  Ian Smiley also has a book
out named "Making Pure Corn Whiskey: a professional guide for Amateur and
Micro Distillers" isbn0-9686292-0-2 this book is also invaluable for
explaining the entire process of converting natural cereal grain into
something that is readily fermentable.  A common theme in all of these books
is a simple fractionating column design on a small scale that is simply
constructed using common hand tools and plumbing fittings.  The amphora
society has announced that they will be releasing plans for a fuel ethanol
distillation apparatus in the near future.  If Mike Nixon designed it, I can
assure you that it is safe and will perform exactly as described.  And you
can see his work for less than 30 bucks.  Hire a Distillation Column expert
and he will spend that much before he consumes his first cup of coffee.  

Another awesome book about making fuel ethanol is "Making it on the Farm:
Alcohol fuel is the road to independence" Available in 4 different forms at
http://buffalo-creek-press.com/alcohol  The original was written back during
the Arab Oil Embargo during the 1970's.  It has been updated onto the CD and
E-book in 2000's. I have the original hardcopy and it is wonderful.  The
updated version has to be even more impressive.  

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of
Keith Addison
Sent: Wednesday, February 27, 2008 1:06 PM
To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Anyone on this list making ethanol?

Hello Stratis

>Is anyone on the list involved in the making of ethanol?

Yes, many, but they might not want to admit it.

>If so are you producing it for personal use?
>
>Selling on a small scale?
>
>If selling, how did you get around the testing issues that forces out
Thomas
>Leue from Ashford to close his fryer-oil refinery after the Environmental
>Protection Agency refused to allow him to register his biodiesel fuel and
>sell it to power vehicles unless he first tests its health effects?

First, that's got nothing to do with ethanol. The NBB health effects 
data issue with small-scale biodiesel (not ethanol) production is a 
large and complicated subject (see "EPA hassle" in the archives), but 
in fact that wasn't Tom Leue's problem, which was that he hadn't paid 
his road taxes, and back taxes amounted to quite a lot. Anyway they 
didn't close him down.

>Are you using at still or are you making ethanol from cellolose by acid
>hydrolysis?

Acid hydrolysis isn't very economical, AFAIK, okay for small amounts
probably.

>  >From the archive I saw: "Producing ethanol from cellolose by acid
hydrolysis
>is a long-established method still used all over the world, and it's still
>the only method available to backyarders, though that could change anytime
>with new enzymes and new techniques being developed."
>
>So are there any backyarders here using this method?  If so, how is it
>working for you?
>
>Has this changed with new enzymes and or techniques as the original post
>implied are are we still waiting?

Ethanol from cellulose
http://journeytoforever.org/ethanol_link.html#cellulose

>If using a still, is corn the main feedstock for "backyarders"?

Biofuels Library
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel_library.html

Best

Keith

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[Biofuel] FW: re Anyone on this list making ethanol?

[Randy]

I'll add one book to that list: 

"The Lore of still building : a primer on the production of alcohol for food
and fuel"  by Kathleen Howard and Norman Gibat no ibsn number on this one
that I can see, but the publisher is 
Noguska Industries
714 North Countyline St
Fostoria  Ohio 44830-1004
Phone
419 435 0404
Fax
419 435 1844  

This is a small paperback that adds many of the small factual oddities that
you MUST know in order to successfully produce ETOH.  The biggest useful
facts is the formulas to use in order to construct the physical plates
inside of a large fractionating tower. 

If you plan on making fuel ETOH in any quantity, you should be concentrating
on how to build a functional continuous feed/output column.  A continuous
still is great for turning out ethanol in the 95 plus percent ABV Alcohol By
Volume range.  It is not so handy for producing booze for human consumption
since it does not remove the methanol that boils over before pure ethanol.
Methanol is poison to humans but will burn just fine in an internal
combustion engine.  85 percent ABV ETOH will work just fine as a stand alone
fuel.  You need nearly Anhydrous ETOH to mix with gasoline or else it will
tend to separate into layers.  

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of
Randy
Sent: Wednesday, February 27, 2008 1:49 PM
To: sustainablelorgbiofuel@sustainablelists.org
Subject: [Biofuel] re Anyone on this list making ethanol?

You can also check out Tony Akland's webpage http://www.homedistiller.org
Tony operates an informational webpage about the distillation of ethanol for
human consumption.  The principals involved aren't any different for fuel
ethanol except that you don't need to be as careful with the draw off points
since you wont be drinking it and you will be denaturing it IAW applicable
federal and state laws (wont you ?).  http://www.amphora-society.com   is a
combined effort by Mike Nixon and Mike McCaw  they are associated with Ian
Smiley.  The two Mikes are licensed professionals in Bio Chemistry and
Chemical Engineering respectively.  They have a book named "The Compleat
Distiller" (yes spelled differently) isbn 0-473-08135-0 which should be
considered a must-have for designing a home distillation apparatus.  Another
book by Mike Nixon and John Stone called "The Distillation of Alcohol: A
Professional Guide for Amateur Distillers" isbn 0-473-06608-4 is also a very
useful book for understanding the unique technical aspects of building a
still that isn't going to blow up in your face.  Ian Smiley also has a book
out named "Making Pure Corn Whiskey: a professional guide for Amateur and
Micro Distillers" isbn0-9686292-0-2 this book is also invaluable for
explaining the entire process of converting natural cereal grain into
something that is readily fermentable.  A common theme in all of these books
is a simple fractionating column design on a small scale that is simply
constructed using common hand tools and plumbing fittings.  The amphora
society has announced that they will be releasing plans for a fuel ethanol
distillation apparatus in the near future.  If Mike Nixon designed it, I can
assure you that it is safe and will perform exactly as described.  And you
can see his work for less than 30 bucks.  Hire a Distillation Column expert
and he will spend that much before he consumes his first cup of coffee.  

Another awesome book about making fuel ethanol is "Making it on the Farm:
Alcohol fuel is the road to independence" Available in 4 different forms at
http://buffalo-creek-press.com/alcohol  The original was written back during
the Arab Oil Embargo during the 1970's.  It has been updated onto the CD and
E-book in 2000's. I have the original hardcopy and it is wonderful.  The
updated version has to be even more impressive.  

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of
Keith Addison
Sent: Wednesday, February 27, 2008 1:06 PM
To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Anyone on this list making ethanol?

Hello Stratis

>Is anyone on the list involved in the making of ethanol?

Yes, many, but they might not want to admit it.

>If so are you producing it for personal use?
>
>Selling on a small scale?
>
>If selling, how did you get around the testing issues that forces out
Thomas
>Leue from Ashford to close his fryer-oil refinery after the Environmental
>Protection Agency refused to allow him to register his biodiesel fuel and
>sell it to power vehicles unless he first tests its health effects?

First, that's got nothing to do with ethanol. The NBB health effects 
data issue with small-scale biodiesel (not ethanol) production is a 
large and complicated subject (see "EPA hassle" in the archives), but 
in fact that wasn't Tom Leue's problem, which was that he hadn't paid 
his road taxes, and back taxes amounted to quite a lot. Anyway they 
didn't close him down.

>Are you using at still or are you making ethanol from ce

Re: [Biofuel] Consumers can and will pay more for food

[Chris Burck]

farmer markets are cheaper or more expensivd, depending on the item
and time of year.  csa packets are actually quite competitive.  of
course, farmer markets are distribution, and outside of the corporate
network.  kirk's point was that there aren't enough of them (at least
that's how i read it), and that it's no accident that they are more or
less on the margin.

On 2/27/08, Keith Addison <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hello John
>
> >As many of us know, the earth's ability to supply resources for 6
> >billion people has reached it's limit.  Now it's which end use these
> >resources are assigned.  Food or fuel?  More of one means less of the
> >other.  We are in decline.
>
> Then many of us know wrong. It's not true, and it doesn't take a lot
> of research to establish that.
>
> What has been reached, long since, is the earth's ability to supply
> resources to feed the twin black holes of rich-country consumerism
> and the global corporate pillaging that depends on it (and created it
> and maintains it).
>
> About 1.2 billion people go hungry, but that's not because of a
> shortage of food. There's more than enough food for everybody, more
> food per capita than there's ever been before. They're hungry because
> that's how the industrial food production and distribution system
> works - they simply get shoved aside, out of the picture.
>
> The food vs fuel controversy also falls apart when you have a closer
> look. Sustainable food production and sustainable fuel production are
> compatible, even complementary, and can supply the needs of a much
> bigger population than 6 billion. But not if we leave it to the
> business-as-usual folks either to do it for us or to dictate the way
> we live.
>
> See eg.:
> 
> Myth 3: Too Many Mouths to Feed
>
> Best
>
> Keith
>
>
> >Keith Addison wrote:
> >>  Brownfield:  Ag News of America
> >>
> >>  Consumers can and will pay more for food
> >>  Monday, February 25, 2008, 3:12 PM
> >>
> >>  by Peter Shinn
> >>
> >>  For the past 11 years, the American Farm Bureau Federation has
> >>  celebrated the fact that Americans generally pay around 10% of their
> >>  total income for food, the lowest total of any nation on earth, with
> >>  an event called "Food Checkout Day." It's typically held in the first
> >>  week of February to symbolize the number of days the average American
> >>  has to work in order to earn enough money to pay for their food bill.
> >>  But due to a wide range of factors, it looks like that date may have
> >>  to be pushed back next year.
> >>
> >>  In fact, U.S. consumers have enjoyed steady to declining food prices,
> >>  at least in real terms, for many years. That's according to Bill
> >>  Lapp, President of Advanced Economic Solutions, who says those good
> >>  times for American food consumers are over, most likely forever.
> >>
> >>  Lapp, the former leading economist for ConAgra, told Brownfield bread
> >>  prices rose over 10% in 2007 and are likely to do at least that again
> >>  this year. He added other food prices will also head higher as food
> >>  manufacturers increasingly pass on the costs of high commodities to
> >>  consumers. The good news, Lapp said, is that most U.S. consumers can
> >>  afford to pay up, even if they won't have much choice in the matter.
> >>
> >>  "I think consumers are more prepared than we realize to accept higher
> >>  prices on food and I think that's part of our future," Lapp
> >>  predicted. "It's largely been set in stone for us already."
> >>
> >>  "Set in stone" because the factors that have driven ag commodity
> >>  prices sharply higher since August of 2006 haven't changed. And
> >>  according to Lapp, who spoke Friday at USDA's Ag Outlook Forum, those
> >>  factors are manifold.
> >>
> >>  "The risk of weather and a 5% increase in world coarse grain demand
> >>  and still strong global economic growth and [biofuels] mandates from
> >>  the government all suggest," Lapp said, "that the bonfire that we've
> >>  started is still going strong."
> >>
> >>  All that, Lapp emphasized, makes robust U.S. crop production this
> >>  year critically important. He called the consequences of a potential
> >>  10% cut in this year's corn crop due to drought "scary." And he said
> >>  it may be a number of years before technological advances that
> >>  improve yields boost crop production enough to generate surpluses in
> >>  the face of the strong demand factors he listed.
> >>
> >>  "There's a lot of things in the pipeline - some of the new varieties
> >>  and their resistance to drought have really benefited the industry,"
> >  > Lapp pointed out. "But it's going to take a while and the first thing
> >  > we have to do is attract more acreage into production and eventually
> >>  we can have those yields," he added. "And again, of course, we're
> >>  always vulnerable on a year-to-year basis from weather-caused yield
> >>  declines."
> >>
> >>
> >

Re: [Biofuel] Major Global Warming Report Puts Value on Human Life

[Chris Burck]

keith, thanks for the reply.  excellent information as always.  i'd
never heard of stern or the stern review.  i will try and track it
down (hopefully it's linked in the archives).  still, assigning a
value to human lives, heiarchically, no less, that's seriously messed
up.  even if he did so only reluctantly, with caveats from here to the
moon.  i mean, did he attempt to quantify any of the caveats?  surely,
if one can quantify a human life, one can quantify the cost of
privatising the atmosphere.  that's what troubles me.  but maybe he
did?  anyway, i'll try and reserve judgement.

On 2/27/08, Keith Addison <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hello Chris, Tom and all
>
> >well, i don't know who this stern guy is,
>
> You should know that, the Stern Review was (is) a major event - I
> wouldn't say it's any less important than Gore's "Inconvenient Truth"
> (and a lot more substantial).
>
> >but it strikes me he may
> >full well have understood the implications of what he was doing.
>
> I don't think so. Well, I'm sure he understood the implications, but
> I doubt he foresaw the cynical way it's being used.
>
> >reading monbiot's description, i was reminded of the kind of actuarial
> >analysis that goes on all the time (though hidden from view for
> >obvious reasons) in the private sector.  was this just one more
> >iteration for him?  or was this new territory and, lacking the
> >imagination, or, perhaps, the moral fortitude (or, worse still, the
> >humanity) necessary, he decided to borrow from the robber barons'
> >playbook?
>
> I think you should read the Review. It's much concerned with the
> moral and ethical issues, several reports said it "highlights" the
> ethical issues.
>
> >well, maybe i'm not being totally fair to him,
>
> No.
>
> >chalk it up
> >to my poor choice of reading this at 7:30 in the morning.  i guess i
> >should have gone out and shovelled that snow first!  but the reason it
> >makes me so angry is that it's such a stark indicator of just how
> >profoundly (and pervertedly) undemocratic our world is today.  global
> >warming is here.  the scientific community has been for some time at a
> >consensus on this, and now, finally, if reluctantly, so is the world
> >community.  but instead of "case closed," we're just getting more
> >bull.  the so-called public debate, it would seem, is nothing more
> >than a debate between the elites:  those who stand to take the biggest
> >hit if things get much warmer, and those who stand the most to gain.
>
> It's more than 20 years since James Hansen addressed the US Senate on
> climate change, 20 years wasted while all the little Neros fiddled to
> protect their bottom line and poured billions more tons of CO2 into
> the atmosphere. They haven't stopped fiddling yet (even though Rupert
> Murdoch bought a hybrid car last year).
>
> Here's another take on it:
>
> >But the false solution that I think
> >we need to pay particular attention to is the dominant solution in
> >terms of carbon trading. Because at the philosophical level, at the
> >world-view level, it's the second privatization of the atmospheric
> >commons. The first privatization was putting the pollution into the
> >atmosphere beyond the earth's recycling capacity. Now with carbon
> >trading, the rights to the earth's carbon cycling capacity are
> >gravitating exactly into the arms of the polluters. The environmental
> >principal used to be the polluter must pay. Carbon trading is
> >transforming that into the polluter gets paid.
> >
> >[Sir Nicholas] Stern, who did the Stern Review, has clearly said it
> >is an allocation of a full set of property rights to the atmosphere.
> >And PricewaterhouseCoopers -- who was very notorious in trying to
> >privatize, with the World Bank's help, Delhi's water supply, and we
> >defeated them two years ago in that project -- has said that trade in
> >carbon emissions is equated with the transfer of similar rights such
> >as copyrights, patents, licensing rights, commercial and industrial
> >standards.
> >
> >One of the things we have always said in [the International Forum on
> >Globalization] is that the enclosures of the commons is one of the
> >deep crises of resource depletion. Once resources move out of common
> >management and public care, they will get further degraded. And if
> >you really look at the clean development mechanism, it's all about
> >dirty industry; it's about HCFC plants being accelerated, new plants
> >being set up in China and India. The biggest recipients of CDM
> >credits in China and India are plants that are depleting the ozone
> >layer. Sponge iron plants coming up in the tribal belts of India, in
> >Chhattisgarh, Jharkhand, and Orissa. And clean seems to have become
> >such a confusing word. We would have thought that we know what clean
> >is. And suddenly, everything dirty is clean.
>
> http://www.mail-archive.com/sustainablelorgbiofuel@sustainablelists.org/msg71144.html
> How to Address Humanity's Global Crises? Challenge Corpo

Re: [Biofuel] Consumers can and will pay more for food

[Kirk McLoren]

Chip Mefford <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:Chris Burck wrote:
> artificially low prices and control of distribution are two sides of
> the same coin. from seed to shelf, the same entities are running the
> game. i didn't hear anyone suggesting farmer's markets are corporate
> controlled.


No.

What was suggested was that 'corporations' have a stranglehold on
distribution, and you want cheap food you have to break that
stranglehold.

That's what was not just suggested, that was clearly stated.

So, Farmer's Markets are not distribution then?
  -
  If a half day on Saturday works for your community have at it.
  --
   
  If there is no corporate stranglehold on Farmer's Markets, then
the food there should be cheaper, yes?

No. Food outside the corporate stranglehold isn't cheaper, it's
more expensive, it's also higher quality, better tasting and
considerably healthier.
  ---
  65 cents for Fuji apples and FRESH beats the heck out of corporate 
distribution in my book
--
It's all well and good to sit back and yell about corporate 
strangleholds and all that. Sure, there is plenty there to
yell about. At the end of the day, guess what? It doesn't matter.
If you haven't learned yet that 'corporations' aren't acting
in your best interest, then you just aren't going to learn it.

In most places in the US, you can source your food from within
your own 'food shed'. Yeah, that means no grapes for 89 cents a
pound in February, and you'll pay a serious premium for indoor
grown tomatoes this time of year. But if you canned the ones you
got when they were in season, you won't care.

Heck, you could grow some of it yourself.
  ---
  Sure, plant corn in front of your condo. Most people have little or no land
  --

Sheesh, if you are a meat eater, you can actually go source your
meat from CSAs, see how the animals live, meet your butcher, see
how it's prepared. you don't have to eat downer cows if you don't want
to. It'll cost more. The folks providing that food have to live too.
  
  we have cows - and sheep and turkeys and chickens to name a few. Not my first 
rodeo. Used to live on 3000 acres. And I know what obstacles the corporations 
placed in the little guys way. My uncle ran a small abator and freezer plant. 
No ecoli in his meat thankyou.

Is that wrong?

If the corporations weren't airfreighting in grapes from south america
to sell at Wallmart for .89 a pound, (with some gawdawful fuel load) 
then somehow that would make the februrary grapes cheaper?

Please.

Know farms,
Know food.


> 
> On 2/27/08, Chip Mefford wrote:
>> Kirk McLoren wrote:
>>
>>> If you want cheaper food you have to break the stranglehold the
>> corporations have on distribution.
>>

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[Biofuel] Aspertame a poison?

[Kirk McLoren]

http://www.anomalicresearch.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/02/my-aspartame-experiment.pdf
   
   

   
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[Biofuel] Farmer in Prison

[Fritz Friesinger]

Hello all,
for those reading french,here the story of the quebec farmer put in prison for 
producing organic milk!Sorry no english version available

Fritz

http://www.cyberpresse.ca/article/20080218/CPOPINIONS05/80217147
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Re: [Biofuel] Anyone on this list making ethanol?

[Manick Harris]

Yes Keith,Stratis,&members
  Current scenario of petrol cost escalation refers: I am sounding companies on 
ethanol/wood tar dual fuel burners which could be used for heating air to 110C 
at 50-200cfm for drying wet rubber crumbs. Also for running engine for 
mechanical and electric power.Strange nobody here is even thinking about these 
huge energy bills even if the company is in the red.
  I am even thinking of putting  second carbureter ( ethanol based) obtained 
from  386mpg post to the list link onto my old Nissan Laurel.Your comments 
would be most welcome.Tq Keith everybody.
  manickh

Keith Addison <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
  Hello Stratis

>Is anyone on the list involved in the making of ethanol?

Yes, many, but they might not want to admit it.

>If so are you producing it for personal use?
>
>Selling on a small scale?
>
>If selling, how did you get around the testing issues that forces out Thomas
>Leue from Ashford to close his fryer-oil refinery after the Environmental
>Protection Agency refused to allow him to register his biodiesel fuel and
>sell it to power vehicles unless he first tests its health effects?

First, that's got nothing to do with ethanol. The NBB health effects 
data issue with small-scale biodiesel (not ethanol) production is a 
large and complicated subject (see "EPA hassle" in the archives), but 
in fact that wasn't Tom Leue's problem, which was that he hadn't paid 
his road taxes, and back taxes amounted to quite a lot. Anyway they 
didn't close him down.

>Are you using at still or are you making ethanol from cellolose by acid
>hydrolysis?

Acid hydrolysis isn't very economical, AFAIK, okay for small amounts probably.

> >From the archive I saw: "Producing ethanol from cellolose by acid hydrolysis
>is a long-established method still used all over the world, and it's still
>the only method available to backyarders, though that could change anytime
>with new enzymes and new techniques being developed."
>
>So are there any backyarders here using this method? If so, how is it
>working for you?
>
>Has this changed with new enzymes and or techniques as the original post
>implied are are we still waiting?

Ethanol from cellulose
http://journeytoforever.org/ethanol_link.html#cellulose

>If using a still, is corn the main feedstock for "backyarders"?

Biofuels Library
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel_library.html

Best

Keith

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Re: [Biofuel] FW: re Anyone on this list making ethanol?

[Keith Addison]

Hello Randy

I don't think any of those resources compare with David Blume's book, 
"Alcohol can be a gas!"
http://www.alcoholcanbeagas.com/

Best

Keith


>I'll add one book to that list:
>
>"The Lore of still building : a primer on the production of alcohol for food
>and fuel"  by Kathleen Howard and Norman Gibat no ibsn number on this one
>that I can see, but the publisher is
>Noguska Industries
>714 North Countyline St
>Fostoria  Ohio 44830-1004
>Phone
>419 435 0404
>Fax
>419 435 1844 
>
>This is a small paperback that adds many of the small factual oddities that
>you MUST know in order to successfully produce ETOH.  The biggest useful
>facts is the formulas to use in order to construct the physical plates
>inside of a large fractionating tower.
>
>If you plan on making fuel ETOH in any quantity, you should be concentrating
>on how to build a functional continuous feed/output column.  A continuous
>still is great for turning out ethanol in the 95 plus percent ABV Alcohol By
>Volume range.  It is not so handy for producing booze for human consumption
>since it does not remove the methanol that boils over before pure ethanol.
>Methanol is poison to humans but will burn just fine in an internal
>combustion engine.  85 percent ABV ETOH will work just fine as a stand alone
>fuel.  You need nearly Anhydrous ETOH to mix with gasoline or else it will
>tend to separate into layers. 
>
>-Original Message-
>From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of
>Randy
>Sent: Wednesday, February 27, 2008 1:49 PM
>To: sustainablelorgbiofuel@sustainablelists.org
>Subject: [Biofuel] re Anyone on this list making ethanol?
>
>You can also check out Tony Akland's webpage http://www.homedistiller.org
>Tony operates an informational webpage about the distillation of ethanol for
>human consumption.  The principals involved aren't any different for fuel
>ethanol except that you don't need to be as careful with the draw off points
>since you wont be drinking it and you will be denaturing it IAW applicable
>federal and state laws (wont you ?).  http://www.amphora-society.com   is a
>combined effort by Mike Nixon and Mike McCaw  they are associated with Ian
>Smiley.  The two Mikes are licensed professionals in Bio Chemistry and
>Chemical Engineering respectively.  They have a book named "The Compleat
>Distiller" (yes spelled differently) isbn 0-473-08135-0 which should be
>considered a must-have for designing a home distillation apparatus.  Another
>book by Mike Nixon and John Stone called "The Distillation of Alcohol: A
>Professional Guide for Amateur Distillers" isbn 0-473-06608-4 is also a very
>useful book for understanding the unique technical aspects of building a
>still that isn't going to blow up in your face.  Ian Smiley also has a book
>out named "Making Pure Corn Whiskey: a professional guide for Amateur and
>Micro Distillers" isbn0-9686292-0-2 this book is also invaluable for
>explaining the entire process of converting natural cereal grain into
>something that is readily fermentable.  A common theme in all of these books
>is a simple fractionating column design on a small scale that is simply
>constructed using common hand tools and plumbing fittings.  The amphora
>society has announced that they will be releasing plans for a fuel ethanol
>distillation apparatus in the near future.  If Mike Nixon designed it, I can
>assure you that it is safe and will perform exactly as described.  And you
>can see his work for less than 30 bucks.  Hire a Distillation Column expert
>and he will spend that much before he consumes his first cup of coffee. 
>
>Another awesome book about making fuel ethanol is "Making it on the Farm:
>Alcohol fuel is the road to independence" Available in 4 different forms at
>http://buffalo-creek-press.com/alcohol  The original was written back during
>the Arab Oil Embargo during the 1970's.  It has been updated onto the CD and
>E-book in 2000's. I have the original hardcopy and it is wonderful.  The
>updated version has to be even more impressive. 
>
>-Original Message-
>From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of
>Keith Addison
>Sent: Wednesday, February 27, 2008 1:06 PM
>To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
>Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Anyone on this list making ethanol?
>
>Hello Stratis
>
>>Is anyone on the list involved in the making of ethanol?
>
>Yes, many, but they might not want to admit it.
>
>>If so are you producing it for personal use?
>>
>>Selling on a small scale?
>>
>>If selling, how did you get around the testing issues that forces out
>Thomas
>>Leue from Ashford to close his fryer-oil refinery after the Environmental
>>Protection Agency refused to allow him to register his biodiesel fuel and
>>sell it to power vehicles unless he first tests its health effects?
>
>First, that's got nothing to do with ethanol. The NBB health effects
>data issue with small-scale biodiesel (not ethanol) production is a
>large and complicated subject (see "EPA hassle" 

[Biofuel] The Rise of Disaster Capitalism

[Kirk McLoren]

 
thoroughness, the report sheds no light on why the abuses were occurring.” The 
92-page report made “no mention of the fact that the junta was in the process 
of remaking the country along radical capitalist lines. It offered no comment 
on the deepening poverty or the dramatic reversal of programs to redistribute 
wealth, though these were the policy centerpieces of junta rule.”
If the junta’s economic project had been examined, she continues, it would have 
been clear why such extraordinary repression was necessary and why so many of 
Amnesty’s prisoners of conscience were trade unionists and social workers.
“In another major omission, Amnesty presented the conflict as one restricted to 
the local military and left-wing extremists. No other players are mentioned—not 
the US government or the CIA; not local landowners; not multinational 
corporations. Without an examination of the larger plan to impose ‘pure’ 
capitalism on Latin America, and the powerful interests behind that project, 
the acts of sadism documented in the report made no sense at all—they were just 
random, free-floating bad events, drifting in the political ether, to be 
condemned by all people of conscience but impossible to understand” 
[pp.118-120].
These points are well made. But they can be extended to Klein herself. She goes 
further than Amnesty, but like the human rights organisation calls a halt right 
at the point where further investigation should begin. If the acts of violence 
were not random events but were bound up with a definite economic agenda, then 
the question immediately arises: why then, in the mid 1970s? Why not earlier?
Klein does not choose to even pose the question, let alone probe the connection 
between the crisis of the world capitalist economy that erupted in the 1970s, 
the end of the post-war boom and the breakdown of the Keynesian program of 
economic reforms. And yet the connection is clearly visible. In September 1976, 
as the junta’s repression was being unleashed in Argentina and Milton Friedman 
was receiving the Nobel Prize, British Prime Minister James Callaghan was 
explaining to the Labour Party that the days of Keynesian spending to boost the 
economy were over.
According to Klein, the refusal of the human rights lobby to “connect the 
apparatus of state terror to the ideological project it served” can be seen, in 
the case of Amnesty, as an attempt to “remain impartial amid Cold War 
tensions”. In the case of many other groups it was a question of money, given 
the significance of the Ford Foundation in providing funds for human rights 
organisations.
One is obliged, however, to pose the same question in relation to Klein: why 
does she refuse to examine the underlying processes of the capitalist economy 
that give rise to the state terror and violence she condemns?
To be continued



   
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Re: [Biofuel] doubling the fuel economy of the Ford Escape

[Mike Pelly]

I've looked there.  I've also actually RUN vehicles on vapor, and 
 the maths don't add up.  The improvements to which you refer don't exist 
 in the real world.   
 robert luis rabello  
   "The Edge of Justice""The Long Journey"New Adventure for Your Mind
http://www.newadventure.ca Ranger Supercharger Project Page 
http://www.members.shaw.ca/rabello/

  Sorry to hear this Robert, thats not what I found and apparently not the case 
with car mentioned below in recent Seattle P. I. story. They set a world record 
of 375 miles per gallon, 35 years ago back in 1973! Where is the disconnect 
here? 
   I've worked around  forklifts indoors and I know what  propane exhaust 
smells like,  and I've smelled vaporized gasoline exhaust and I found them 
impossible to differentiate. Both of them are totally cleaner than normal car 
exhaust with even a cat converter on exhaust. 
It's time we all start using all the tools we got here, 
  and Save Our Planet, dear Earth. 

Mike Pelly Seattle PI story

<http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/local/351903_needle20.html>

Also
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SAE_Supermileage_Competition>

Engine improvements are conceivable - stratified charge, fuel reforming
 
using waste heat, recirculating the combustion chamber boundary layer
 to 
reduce pollution, etc.

Along with producing biofuel one thinks about getting the most out of
 it.

Think "beyond the Citroen 2CV" otherwise known as "the peasant's
friend." Of course, at a certain point a donkey becomes interesting.
Appropriate technology.

Doug Woodard
St. Catharines, Ontario, Canada


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robert and benita <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Mike Pelly wrote:

>  Any hybrid electric vehicle is an improvement over conventional drive train 
> configurations, But as long as the vehicle continues to either carburate or 
> Fuel inject the gasoline into the intake manifold with the fuel still at 
> ambient temperature, that engine is loosing out on an incredible ability to 
> stretch the fuel millage to its full potential. We are overlooking the 
> biggest and lowest hanging fruits for increasing fuel efficiency as well as 
> cleaning up exhaust emissions and Most Importantly, lowering the creation of 
> Global Warming CO2 emissions from vehicle emissions. 
>  Time to get this magic uncorked from the bottle the oil and auto 
> manufactures have been keeping it in for the past 75 years. The first car 
> company to start offering this option on their vehicles, will  be able to  
> sprint ahead of the others in sales in a short order of time. To learn more 
> about vaporized gasoline (probably will work for diesel fuel and some 
> biofuels too) visit   www.byronwine.com 
>  
>

I've looked there.  I've also actually RUN vehicles on vapor, and 
the maths don't add up.  The improvements to which you refer don't exist 
in the real world.

robert luis rabello
"The Edge of Justice"
"The Long Journey"
New Adventure for Your Mind
http://www.newadventure.ca

Ranger Supercharger Project Page
http://www.members.shaw.ca/rabello/


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[Biofuel] doubling the fuel economy of the Ford Escape

[Mike Pelly]

I've looked there.  I've also actually RUN vehicles on vapor, and 
 the maths don't add up.  The improvements to which you refer don't exist 
 in the real world.   
 robert luis rabello  
   "The Edge of Justice""The Long Journey"New Adventure for Your Mind
http://www.newadventure.ca Ranger Supercharger Project Page 
http://www.members.shaw.ca/rabello/

  Sorry to hear this Robert, thats not what I found and apparently not the case 
with car mentioned below in recent Seattle P. I. story. They set a world record 
of 375 miles per gallon, 35 years ago back in 1973! Where is the disconnect 
here? 
   I've worked around  forklifts indoors and I know what  propane exhaust 
smells like,  and I've smelled vaporized gasoline exhaust and I found them 
impossible to differentiate. Both of them are totally cleaner than normal car 
exhaust with even a cat converter on exhaust. 
It's time  we all start using all the tools we got here, 
  and Save Our Planet, dear Earth. 

Mike Pelly Seattle PI story

<http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/local/351903_needle20.html>

Also
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SAE_Supermileage_Competition>

Engine improvements are conceivable - stratified charge, fuel reforming
 
using waste heat, recirculating the combustion chamber boundary layer
 to 
reduce pollution, etc.

Along with producing biofuel one thinks about getting the most out of
 it.

Think "beyond the Citroen 2CV" otherwise known as "the peasant's
friend." Of course, at a certain point a donkey
 becomes interesting.
Appropriate technology.

Doug Woodard
St. Catharines, Ontario, Canada


___
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 messages):
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robert and benita <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Mike Pelly wrote:

>  Any hybrid electric vehicle is an improvement over conventional drive train 
> configurations, But as long as the vehicle continues to either carburate or 
> Fuel inject the gasoline into the intake manifold with the fuel still at 
> ambient temperature, that engine is loosing out on an incredible ability to 
> stretch the fuel millage to its full potential. We are overlooking the 
> biggest and lowest hanging fruits for increasing fuel efficiency as well as 
> cleaning up exhaust emissions and Most Importantly, lowering the creation of 
> Global Warming CO2 emissions  from vehicle emissions. 
>  Time to get this magic uncorked from the bottle the oil and auto 
> manufactures have been keeping it in for the past 75 years. The first car 
> company to start offering this option on their vehicles, will  be able to  
> sprint ahead of the others in sales in a short order of time. To learn more 
> about vaporized gasoline (probably will work for diesel fuel and some 
> biofuels too) visit   www.byronwine.com 
>  
>

I've looked there.  I've also actually RUN vehicles on vapor, and 
the maths don't add up.  The improvements to which you refer don't exist 
in the real world.

robert luis rabello
"The Edge of Justice"
"The Long Journey"
New Adventure for Your Mind
http://www.newadventure.ca

Ranger Supercharger Project Page
http://www.members.shaw.ca/rabello/


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