Re: Re[4]: [Biofuel] Hybrid Diesel

[KinsleyForPrez08]

Gustl,

I have seen the same thing happen in my hometown of Bethlehem, PA.  The big 
steel company (Bethlehem Steel) closed down in the 90's after being in 
operation for almost 100 years.  Part of the blame rested with the greedy 
corporate management, and part with the greedy union leadership (I have had 
family members on both sides, plus those workers in between).


There was a time when the USWA was an important part of the community, 
fighting for workers rights.  That time is no more...


Thanks for the email.

Later,

Earl Kinsley
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
--
"None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are 
free."
-- Johann Wolfgang von Goethe 



___
Biofuel mailing list
Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):
http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/

Re: [Biofuel] Hybrid Diesel

[capt3d]

In a message dated 7/11/05 9:19:46 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

<< Chris are you serious? I can think of plenty of federal protection for 

workers off the top of my head.


a) minimum wage

b) overtime rules (40 hr work week for hourly employees)

c) OSHA

d) EPA

e) NLRB

f) maternity/paternity leave

g) child labor laws >>

lol, okay, i deserved that for being too vague.  the only two listed, 
however, which are concrete and very clear to almost anyone, are (a) and (b).  
most 
people don't understand their rights under the rest of the items listed and 
they don't amount to much when, as i stated before, the employer has the kind 
of 
hire/fire power that "at will" (yes, i knew it was called that) allows.  and 
minimum wage is laughably inadequate.

those workers that can afford to risk termination because the boss sees them 
as a trouble-maker, are extremely few.  i say again, it is up to the worker to 
make the case that he/she was fired unjustly (e.g. for whiste-blowing; for 
refusing to engage in a unsafe work practice; for refusing to drive faster than 
the speed limit in order to expedite a delivery; etc.).  this process doesn't 
happen overnight, and isn't a sure bet either, if the employer is clever about 
how he/she goes about that which is being alleged.   besides, it's usually 
more pressing to find another job and restore the revenue stream.

i disagree about unions being less attractive because there are so many 
worker protections today.  much more significant is that most people are very 
cynical about unions for a whole range of reasons, including among other things 
the 
fact that they have been incrementally stripped of their effectiveness over 
the decades by employers who have learned to use loopholes in the law to their 
advantage.  and the fact that they have been so releltnlessly demonized it's 
almost taken for granted that the uniion leadership will be corrupt.  an image 
which is not entirely without foundation, but which has been exaggerated 
beyond all reason.

of course i don't suggest that employers not be able to fire their employees. 
 but there are still a lot of ways of extending protection to workers.  
requiring employers to give two weeks notice or two weeks severance (except in 
cases of theft; vandalism; assault), would be one.

-chris

___
Biofuel mailing list
Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):
http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/

RE: [Biofuel] Hybrid Diesel

[James G. Branaum]

Federal law DOES provide for job security in very specific circumstances.
However, they are not general or all inclusive.  I think Germany went down
that path with disastrous results.  Jobs seem to be for life, regardless of
skill or effort not spent in employers behalf.  I am pretty sure Japan was
on that path and realized it had bad end results in their last economic
downturn.

  

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of John Hayes
Sent: Monday, July 11, 2005 10:19 AM
To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Hybrid Diesel




[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> earl, i'm not familiar with any federal laws protecting workers, except
for 
> anti-discrimination laws.  if you're referring to more than that, please 
> enlighten me.

Chris are you serious? I can think of plenty of federal protection for 
workers off the top of my head.

a) minimum wage
b) overtime rules (40 hr work week for hourly employees)
c) OSHA
d) EPA
e) NLRB
f) maternity/paternity leave
g) child labor laws

You may think worker protection doesn't go far enough but we're 
certainly not talking about the grossly unregulated laissez faire 
capitalism that made unions so necessary at the turn of the *least* 
century. Children don't work in textile mills. Miners don't work 12 hr 
shifts 6 days a week.

Given these protections, the benefits of unionization are far less 
compelling than in the past. Given the drawbacks: dues, seniority over 
merit, inability to cut deadwood, inability to negotiate an individual 
contract, it isn't suprising that union membership has steadily declined 
over the past several decades.

> as fro state laws, don't be fooled by what you found in PA.  many states
have 
> very poor worker protections.  for example, employers in many states can
fire 
> an employee for virtually any reason, because they are not required to
have 
> one.  so although it might be illegal for a company to fire someone for,
say, 
> refusing to commit a crime, they can still fire you without justification.


Tthis is called "At-will employment" and is the norm under US law unless 
your contract explicitly stipulates otherwise. However, all states also 
have common law exception to the at-will rule for retaliatory discharge; 
if an employer fires you for refusing to commit a criminal act, they are 
legally accountable. But yes, barring whistle-blower retaliation, a US 
employer can typically fire an employee without cause as is required in 
some other countries.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/At_will_employment
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/At-will_employment

(wikipedia has two different pages on this topic)

I assume from your comments that you think federal labor laws should 
provide some job security provisions?




___
Biofuel mailing list
Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000
messages):
http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/




___
Biofuel mailing list
Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):
http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/

Re[4]: [Biofuel] Hybrid Diesel

[Gustl Steiner-Zehender]

Hallo Earl,

Sunday, 10 July, 2005, 21:41:03, you wrote:

Kac> Which  is  why  I didn't join the Libertarian Party, or any party
Kac> for  that  matter.  Everytime  I  look  up a particular political
Kac> party,  I  find something that I don't agree with. I think I will
Kac> just  stay  an  independent,  as  I have for the last 17 years. I
Kac> voted  for Badnarik in the last election because he seemed like a
Kac> better choice than Candidate R or Candidate D.

I  don't get mixed up with partisan politics and political parties for
religious  reasons  but  I  do  believe in keeping as well informed as
possible.

Kac> On  unions, it seems like the Government has enacted enough labor
Kac> laws  that  the  unions  no  longer  seem  useful. There are more
Kac> federal  and  state laws today (119 in PA stick in my mind from a
Kac> recent  HR seminar I went to) that protect the individual worker,
Kac> but  none that protect the employers. I am not saying that unions
Kac> aren't  worthy  endeavors, but the Government has taken away much
Kac> of  their  power.  Nowadays,  unions  are  really  just  good for
Kac> negotiating   rates  and  benefits  and  keeping  senior  members
Kac> employed.  I  think  many of those labor laws should be scrapped,
Kac> and  more  power  put  back into the hands of the individuals, or
Kac> groups of individuals (i.e., unions).

My  grandfather  went  to work for General Motors in 1915 I believe or
perhaps  it was 1919.  I don't remember exactly and he is long dead so
I  can't  ask.  He was involved in the 1936 strike in Flint (Michigan)
which  brought about the recognition of the union.  I remember talking
to  him back in about 1960 about the strikes and the union and he told
me that in the beginning the union was a good and unfortunately needed
organization but over the years it had grown more and more to resemble
the  bosses and it seemed to him now that the purpose of the union was
to  maintain the status quo:  keep the workers satisfied enough to not
strike  and  the  bosses satisfied enough to not complain and keep the
union  management  in  power.   He  even  gave a specific year when he
perceived  that  the  values of the union "leadership" became entirely
corrupted  and  that was 1955.  He told me that that was the same year
when  the  quality of the Buick and Cadillac had become so bad that "a
body  might  as  well  drive  a  Chevy or Ford" because they were less
expensive and the quality was the same.

Over  the years I have been a union member because it was required.  I
have  been  a  member  of locals affiliated with GM, Ford and Jeep and
with  the  IWW  as  well.   The  IWW  was  the best of them and it was
unsatisfactory.   The UAW locals were pretty much clones of each other
and  relatively worthless in any real sense.  The IWW wasn't great but
it is the only union I know of whose members held a strike because the
owners  were  trying  to  force  a  pay increase on the workers so the
bosses  could use the pay increase as an excuse to close the business,
get  rid  of the union and then re-open.  That notwithstanding I still
did not care for the IWW either.

The  employers don't need much protection from the workers.  They need
protection  from  the  government.   Had  the  employers been fair and
reasonable  there  would  have  never been a union in the first place.
The  salaries  and  benefit  packages of management run from generally
much greater than that of the hourly employees to obscene.  Admittedly
the smaller the company the less the disparity but how reasonable must
an  employee  be  then?   To  the  point  of near starvation or barely
scraping by?  You understand of course that I am not talking about mom
and  pop businesses now, eh?  And while I'm thinking about it just how
is  it  that  business  owners have the right to say that their profit
margin  is  not "great enough" but that employees don't have the right
to say that their wages are not great enough?  Somewhere in here there
needs  to  be  a  return  to reason and cooperation.  By the way Earl,
these  thoughts  aren't  directed  specifically  at  you they are just
rolling around in the empty space in my head.  Another by the way, the
union  example  was  just the first thing which popped into that empty
space.  There are similar examples all through the platform.

There  are  all  kinds  of ways for employers to get around government
regulations.   We all know that.  Age, sex, race discrimination?  Each
can  be  gotten around.  Perhaps not forever but generally they can be
avoided.  Shoot, I know places in Ohio which won't allow OSHA on their
property.   Rules,  regulations,  strikes  and slowdowns are no decent
substitute for reason and cooperation but...

Government  seems  to  be  in  the  business of defining and enforcing
morality  and  that  is where the rules come from.  Unions do the same
thing.  The problem is that they don't agree on the definitions and so
they both talk about different thin

Re: [Biofuel] Hybrid Diesel

[John Hayes]

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
earl, i'm not familiar with any federal laws protecting workers, except for 
anti-discrimination laws.  if you're referring to more than that, please 
enlighten me.


Chris are you serious? I can think of plenty of federal protection for 
workers off the top of my head.


a) minimum wage
b) overtime rules (40 hr work week for hourly employees)
c) OSHA
d) EPA
e) NLRB
f) maternity/paternity leave
g) child labor laws

You may think worker protection doesn't go far enough but we're 
certainly not talking about the grossly unregulated laissez faire 
capitalism that made unions so necessary at the turn of the *least* 
century. Children don't work in textile mills. Miners don't work 12 hr 
shifts 6 days a week.


Given these protections, the benefits of unionization are far less 
compelling than in the past. Given the drawbacks: dues, seniority over 
merit, inability to cut deadwood, inability to negotiate an individual 
contract, it isn't suprising that union membership has steadily declined 
over the past several decades.


as fro state laws, don't be fooled by what you found in PA.  many states have 
very poor worker protections.  for example, employers in many states can fire 
an employee for virtually any reason, because they are not required to have 
one.  so although it might be illegal for a company to fire someone for, say, 
refusing to commit a crime, they can still fire you without justification.  


Tthis is called "At-will employment" and is the norm under US law unless 
your contract explicitly stipulates otherwise. However, all states also 
have common law exception to the at-will rule for retaliatory discharge; 
if an employer fires you for refusing to commit a criminal act, they are 
legally accountable. But yes, barring whistle-blower retaliation, a US 
employer can typically fire an employee without cause as is required in 
some other countries.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/At_will_employment
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/At-will_employment

(wikipedia has two different pages on this topic)

I assume from your comments that you think federal labor laws should 
provide some job security provisions?





___
Biofuel mailing list
Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):
http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/

Re: [Biofuel] Hybrid Diesel

[Mike Weaver]

NLRB?  OSHA?  At least before the present administration.

Also, most employment in the US is termed "at will" either side can fire 
the other.


I agree it's far from perfect, and leads to abuses, but the opposite, 
making it impossible to fire workers, is worse.  I worked some in
Bamako, Mali, and no one will hire anyone because they can never be 
fired.  The result?  A worker's paradise?  Nope.  No jobs and no economy.


Look at the current donnybrook in France w/ Evian.





[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

earl, i'm not familiar with any federal laws protecting workers, except for 
anti-discrimination laws.  if you're referring to more than that, please 
enlighten me.


as fro state laws, don't be fooled by what you found in PA.  many states have 
very poor worker protections.  for example, employers in many states can fire 
an employee for virtually any reason, because they are not required to have 
one.  so although it might be illegal for a company to fire someone for, say, 
refusing to commit a crime, they can still fire you without justification.  
leaving it up to the worker to taking legal action, if they can make a solid 
case.  this kind of employer power leads to many workers allowing their employer 
get away with a whole lot of things from which the law supposedly protects them.


best,

-chris

___
Biofuel mailing list
Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):
http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
 




___
Biofuel mailing list
Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):
http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/

Re: Re[2]: [Biofuel] Hybrid Diesel

[capt3d]

earl, i'm not familiar with any federal laws protecting workers, except for 
anti-discrimination laws.  if you're referring to more than that, please 
enlighten me.

as fro state laws, don't be fooled by what you found in PA.  many states have 
very poor worker protections.  for example, employers in many states can fire 
an employee for virtually any reason, because they are not required to have 
one.  so although it might be illegal for a company to fire someone for, say, 
refusing to commit a crime, they can still fire you without justification.  
leaving it up to the worker to taking legal action, if they can make a solid 
case.  this kind of employer power leads to many workers allowing their 
employer 
get away with a whole lot of things from which the law supposedly protects them.

best,

-chris

___
Biofuel mailing list
Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):
http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/

Re: Re[2]: [Biofuel] Hybrid Diesel

[KinsleyForPrez08]

Gustl,

Which is why I didn't join the Libertarian Party, or any party for that 
matter.  Everytime I look up a particular political party, I find something 
that I don't agree with.  I think I will just stay an independent, as I have 
for the last 17 years.  I voted for Badnarik in the last election because he 
seemed like a better choice than Candidate R or Candidate D.


On unions, it seems like the Government has enacted enough labor laws that 
the unions no longer seem useful.  There are more federal and state laws 
today (119 in PA stick in my mind from a recent HR seminar I went to) that 
protect the individual worker, but none that protect the employers.  I am 
not saying that unions aren't worthy endeavors, but the Government has taken 
away much of their power.  Nowadays, unions are really just good for 
negotiating rates and benefits and keeping senior members employed.  I think 
many of those labor laws should be scrapped, and more power put back into 
the hands of the individuals, or groups of individuals (i.e., unions).


Thanks for the info!

Earl Kinsley
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
--
"None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are 
free."

-- Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

- Original Message - 
From: "Gustl Steiner-Zehender" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

To: "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" 
Sent: Sunday, July 10, 2005 7:13 AM
Subject: Re[2]: [Biofuel] Hybrid Diesel


Hallo Friends,

Saturday, 09 July, 2005, 21:49:44, you wrote:

1an> Unfortunately  voting  Libertarian had nothing to do with getting
1an> rid of these extreemists...

In  order  to  be  absolutely fair and consistent I need to be equally
hostile to all political parties including the Libertarians.

I have been in a discussion with my wife's nephew who is a heavy duty,
factory  owning, dyed-in-the-wool capitalist and a staunch Libertarian
as well.  In order to understand his thinking I have recently read the
Libertarian  party  platform  and  have  concluded  that they would be
closer  to the truth if they changed the party name to "Licensecarian"
because  while they use the word "responsibility" quite a lot in their
platform I find little evidence of any substance there.

There  is  a lot of talk about individual rights but very little about
the  rights  of society as a whole. One interesting example is that of
the  unions. Individuals have the right to form a union but as soon as
they  do  they  have  no  right  to  do what a union is intended to do
because  the  owner  of  a corporation or business or whatever has the
right  to refuse to recognize the union thus making it a futile effort
in  the first place. "You may form an orchestra but you may not play."
That  kind  of thought is built in to the platform throughout. Sort of
Ayn  Randish  on  steroids and gone psychotic. All lettuce and no meat
and  potatoes  let  alone  beans and grains. To give with one hand and
take  away  with  the  other  is to do nothing. Social responsibility?
"Nice  concept  but  MY  rights as an individual are paramount.  Shove
off."  No thank you. We are our brothers (and sisters) keepers.

Happy Happy,

Gustl
--
Je mehr wir haben, desto mehr fordert Gott von uns.

We can't change the winds but we can adjust our sails.

The safest road to Hell is the gradual one - the gentle slope,
soft underfoot, without sudden turnings, without milestones,
without signposts.
C. S. Lewis, "The Screwtape Letters"

Es gibt Wahrheiten, die so sehr auf der Straße liegen,
daß sie gerade deshalb von der gewöhnlichen Welt nicht
gesehen oder wenigstens nicht erkannt werden.

Those who dance are considered insane by those who can't
hear the music.
George Carlin

The best portion of a good man's life -
His little, nameless, unremembered acts of kindness and of love.
William Wordsworth



___
Biofuel mailing list
Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 
messages):

http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/



___
Biofuel mailing list
Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):
http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/

Re: [Biofuel] Hybrid Diesel

[Keith Addison]

Hello Richard


Anybody heard of the Direct Democracy League? What do you think of it?


Not heard of them, but there are some previous discussions following 
a direct democracy initiative in Gibralter planned by list member 
James, you might find it interesting:


http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/msg18457.html
[biofuel] Direct Democracy

The whole thread is linked at the end of the page.

Best wishes

Keith



[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:


Unfortunately voting Libertarian had nothing to do with getting
rid of these extreemists...

 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

=
Paddy,





___
Biofuel mailing list
Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):
http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/

Re: [Biofuel] Hybrid Diesel

[r]

Anybody heard of the Direct Democracy League? What do you think of it?

[EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote:

  Unfortunately voting Libertarian had nothing to do with getting 
rid of these extreemists...

 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: 
 
=
Paddy,

Actually, according to the President's FY2006 budget to Congress, his 
administration proposed an $18 billion cut from the Dept of Defense budget 
(compared to FY2005).  I haven't finished looking to see if this was just 
hidden elsewhere (there were increases in "National Defense" in the Dept of 
Energy and other agencies), plus it doesn't include the "unexpected costs" 
of invading other countries like Afghanistan or Iraq.  It is true that the 
defense budget amounts 19% of the overall $2.568 TRILLION FY2006 federal 
budget, but what we really should be asking is what else are they wasting 
our money on?

Also, where is the $210 million from and what is it for?  From the FY2006 
budget, I see a lot more being put into areas of cleaning up the 
environment - In the EPA's budget alone there is about $1.5 billion for 
states to clean up water supplies, $121 million to clean up industrial 
brownfield sites, $10 million to retrofit school buses to reduce their 
emissions, $73 million to repair or remove leaking underground storage tanks 
and, finally $1.2 billion to clean up Superfund sites.  That's something 
like just under $3 billion on cleaning up our environmental messes.

I agree that this Administration has been rather relaxed on helping to 
prevent environment problems, but then can you blame them?  Many of the 
members of this administration are from either the oil or defense 
industries, two areas that are the worse contributors to enviromnental 
destruction there ever was.  To them, saving the environment means losing 
money.  And it is our fault for putting them in office (well not my fault, I 
voted Libertarian).  Next time let's keep the money-grubbing, 
wilderness-drilling, nation-conquering, "we don't count civilian casualties" 
politicians out of office in the next election, and maybe we will have a 
chance to save the environment (and our own pocketbooks).

I encourage you to look at the budget and determine for yourself what they 
are wasting our money on.  Go to 
http://www.gpoaccess.gov/usbudget/fy06/browse.html to look at the budget.

Thanks,

Earl Kinsley

- Original Message - 
From: "Paddy O'Reilly" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Wednesday, June 29, 2005 5:13 AM
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Hybrid Diesel


  
  

  
I do
agree, though, that that was a heck of an expensive program for the U.S.
taxpayer.



  
  
  

I'm sorry, but I have to comment on what's being said here.
Basically, the American tax dollar is begrudgingly given to help with
cleaning up our environment to the tune of 210 million (ever deflating)
US dollars yet a blind eye is being cast on the HUNDREDS OF BILLIONS of
those same dollars being wasted on the beloved American Defence Budget.
I heard somewhere that the INCREASE in the American defence budget this
year exceeds the total defence budgets of the next five largest defence
budgets of other "superpowers" put together.

And George won't even consider cancelling third nation debt (I suppose
it doesn't hold any immediate return for him so he doesn't care).

So putting the whole thing into perspective, the payment of 0.175% of
the American defence budget (which will be spent on developing new and
improved ways of wiping out the planet in the shortest time possible) on
helping some other Americans develop ways of reducing our dependence on
the Earth's natural resources is a waste of money while creating weapons
of mass destruction isn't.

Hmmm, methinks there's a slight imbalance in priorities here. The term
"Heck of an expensive program(me)" should be reserved for George Dubya's
retirement fund (aka defence budget).



  As expensive as today's oil consumption is proving to be, in so many
different ways? And not just for the US taxpayer either.



  
  
IIRC, under PNGV the US gave $70 million to each of the big 3
automakers to come up with these 'possible vehicles'.



  

I've cut out as much as is reasonable from this email trail to preserve
bandwidth. Hope it still makes sense.
By the way, I'm using English spelling in this mail not the American
mutated version.


The information contained in this e-mail and in any attachments is 
confidential and is designated solely for the attention of the intended 
recipient(s). If you are not an intended recipient, you must not use, 
disclose, copy, distribute or retain this e-mail or any part thereof. If 
you have received this e-mail in error, ple

Re[2]: [Biofuel] Hybrid Diesel

[Gustl Steiner-Zehender]

Hallo Friends,

Saturday, 09 July, 2005, 21:49:44, you wrote:

1an> Unfortunately  voting  Libertarian had nothing to do with getting
1an> rid of these extreemists...

In  order  to  be  absolutely fair and consistent I need to be equally
hostile to all political parties including the Libertarians.

I have been in a discussion with my wife's nephew who is a heavy duty,
factory  owning, dyed-in-the-wool capitalist and a staunch Libertarian
as well.  In order to understand his thinking I have recently read the
Libertarian  party  platform  and  have  concluded  that they would be
closer  to the truth if they changed the party name to "Licensecarian"
because  while they use the word "responsibility" quite a lot in their
platform I find little evidence of any substance there.

There  is  a lot of talk about individual rights but very little about
the  rights  of society as a whole. One interesting example is that of
the  unions. Individuals have the right to form a union but as soon as
they  do  they  have  no  right  to  do what a union is intended to do
because  the  owner  of  a corporation or business or whatever has the
right  to refuse to recognize the union thus making it a futile effort
in  the first place. "You may form an orchestra but you may not play."
That  kind  of thought is built in to the platform throughout. Sort of
Ayn  Randish  on  steroids and gone psychotic. All lettuce and no meat
and  potatoes  let  alone  beans and grains. To give with one hand and
take  away  with  the  other  is to do nothing. Social responsibility?
"Nice  concept  but  MY  rights as an individual are paramount.  Shove
off."  No thank you. We are our brothers (and sisters) keepers.

Happy Happy,

Gustl
-- 
Je mehr wir haben, desto mehr fordert Gott von uns.

We can't change the winds but we can adjust our sails.

The safest road to Hell is the gradual one - the gentle slope, 
soft underfoot, without sudden turnings, without milestones, 
without signposts.  
C. S. Lewis, "The Screwtape Letters"

Es gibt Wahrheiten, die so sehr auf der Straße liegen, 
daß sie gerade deshalb von der gewöhnlichen Welt nicht 
gesehen oder wenigstens nicht erkannt werden.

Those who dance are considered insane by those who can't
hear the music.  
George Carlin

The best portion of a good man's life -
His little, nameless, unremembered acts of kindness and of love.
William Wordsworth



___
Biofuel mailing list
Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):
http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/

Re: [Biofuel] Hybrid Diesel

[RobertCVA]

If you haven't seen the summary pie chart on federal incomes and outlays, I 
suggest checking out page 74 of http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/i1040gi.pdf
 
Bob
 
 
>In a message dated 7/9/2005 1:43:48 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Paddy,Actually, according to the President's FY2006 budget to 
  Congress, his administration proposed an $18 billion cut from the Dept of 
  Defense budget (compared to FY2005).  I haven't finished looking to 
  see if this was just hidden elsewhere (there were increases in "National 
  Defense" in the Dept of Energy and other agencies), plus it doesn't 
  include the "unexpected costs" of invading other countries like 
  Afghanistan or Iraq.  It is true that the defense budget amounts 19% 
  of the overall $2.568 TRILLION FY2006 federal budget, but what we really 
  should be asking is what else are they wasting our money on?Also, 
  where is the $210 million from and what is it for?  From the FY2006 
  budget, I see a lot more being put into areas of cleaning up the 
  environment - In the EPA's budget alone there is about $1.5 billion for 
  states to clean up water supplies, $121 million to clean up industrial 
  brownfield sites, $10 million to retrofit school buses to reduce their 
  emissions, $73 million to repair or remove leaking underground storage 
  tanks and, finally $1.2 billion to clean up Superfund sites.  That's 
  something like just under $3 billion on cleaning up our environmental 
  messes.I agree that this Administration has been rather relaxed on 
  helping to prevent environment problems, but then can you blame 
  them?  Many of the members of this administration are from either the 
  oil or defense industries, two areas that are the worse contributors to 
  enviromnental destruction there ever was.  To them, saving the 
  environment means losing money.  And it is our fault for putting them 
  in office (well not my fault, I voted Libertarian).  Next time let's 
  keep the money-grubbing, wilderness-drilling, nation-conquering, "we don't 
  count civilian casualties" politicians out of office in the next election, 
  and maybe we will have a chance to save the environment (and our own 
  pocketbooks).I encourage you to look at the budget and determine for 
  yourself what they are wasting our money on.  Go to 
  http://www.gpoaccess.gov/usbudget/fy06/browse.html to look at the 
  budget.Thanks,Earl Kinsley

 
___
Biofuel mailing list
Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):
http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/

Re: [Biofuel] Hybrid Diesel

[1michaelf]

Unfortunately voting Libertarian had nothing to do with getting 
rid of these extreemists...

 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: 
 
=
Paddy,

Actually, according to the President's FY2006 budget to Congress, his 
administration proposed an $18 billion cut from the Dept of Defense budget 
(compared to FY2005).  I haven't finished looking to see if this was just 
hidden elsewhere (there were increases in "National Defense" in the Dept of 
Energy and other agencies), plus it doesn't include the "unexpected costs" 
of invading other countries like Afghanistan or Iraq.  It is true that the 
defense budget amounts 19% of the overall $2.568 TRILLION FY2006 federal 
budget, but what we really should be asking is what else are they wasting 
our money on?

Also, where is the $210 million from and what is it for?  From the FY2006 
budget, I see a lot more being put into areas of cleaning up the 
environment - In the EPA's budget alone there is about $1.5 billion for 
states to clean up water supplies, $121 million to clean up industrial 
brownfield sites, $10 million to retrofit school buses to reduce their 
emissions, $73 million to repair or remove leaking underground storage tanks 
and, finally $1.2 billion to clean up Superfund sites.  That's something 
like just under $3 billion on cleaning up our environmental messes.

I agree that this Administration has been rather relaxed on helping to 
prevent environment problems, but then can you blame them?  Many of the 
members of this administration are from either the oil or defense 
industries, two areas that are the worse contributors to enviromnental 
destruction there ever was.  To them, saving the environment means losing 
money.  And it is our fault for putting them in office (well not my fault, I 
voted Libertarian).  Next time let's keep the money-grubbing, 
wilderness-drilling, nation-conquering, "we don't count civilian casualties" 
politicians out of office in the next election, and maybe we will have a 
chance to save the environment (and our own pocketbooks).

I encourage you to look at the budget and determine for yourself what they 
are wasting our money on.  Go to 
http://www.gpoaccess.gov/usbudget/fy06/browse.html to look at the budget.

Thanks,

Earl Kinsley

- Original Message - 
From: "Paddy O'Reilly" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Wednesday, June 29, 2005 5:13 AM
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Hybrid Diesel


>
>>>I do
>>>agree, though, that that was a heck of an expensive program for the U.S.
>>>taxpayer.
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
> I'm sorry, but I have to comment on what's being said here.
> Basically, the American tax dollar is begrudgingly given to help with
> cleaning up our environment to the tune of 210 million (ever deflating)
> US dollars yet a blind eye is being cast on the HUNDREDS OF BILLIONS of
> those same dollars being wasted on the beloved American Defence Budget.
> I heard somewhere that the INCREASE in the American defence budget this
> year exceeds the total defence budgets of the next five largest defence
> budgets of other "superpowers" put together.
>
> And George won't even consider cancelling third nation debt (I suppose
> it doesn't hold any immediate return for him so he doesn't care).
>
> So putting the whole thing into perspective, the payment of 0.175% of
> the American defence budget (which will be spent on developing new and
> improved ways of wiping out the planet in the shortest time possible) on
> helping some other Americans develop ways of reducing our dependence on
> the Earth's natural resources is a waste of money while creating weapons
> of mass destruction isn't.
>
> Hmmm, methinks there's a slight imbalance in priorities here. The term
> "Heck of an expensive program(me)" should be reserved for George Dubya's
> retirement fund (aka defence budget).
>
>>As expensive as today's oil consumption is proving to be, in so many
>>different ways? And not just for the US taxpayer either.
>>
>>
>>
>>>IIRC, under PNGV the US gave $70 million to each of the big 3
>>>automakers to come up with these 'possible vehicles'.
>>>
>>>
>
> I've cut out as much as is reasonable from this email trail to preserve
> bandwidth. Hope it still makes sense.
> By the way, I'm using English spelling in this mail not the American
> mutated version.
>
>
> The information contained in this e-mail and in any attachments is 
> confidential and is designated solely for the attention of the intended 
> recipient(s). If you are not an intended recipient, you must not use, 
> disclose, copy, distribute or retain this e-mail or any part 

Re: [Biofuel] Hybrid Diesel

[KinsleyForPrez08]

Paddy,

Actually, according to the President's FY2006 budget to Congress, his 
administration proposed an $18 billion cut from the Dept of Defense budget 
(compared to FY2005).  I haven't finished looking to see if this was just 
hidden elsewhere (there were increases in "National Defense" in the Dept of 
Energy and other agencies), plus it doesn't include the "unexpected costs" 
of invading other countries like Afghanistan or Iraq.  It is true that the 
defense budget amounts 19% of the overall $2.568 TRILLION FY2006 federal 
budget, but what we really should be asking is what else are they wasting 
our money on?


Also, where is the $210 million from and what is it for?  From the FY2006 
budget, I see a lot more being put into areas of cleaning up the 
environment - In the EPA's budget alone there is about $1.5 billion for 
states to clean up water supplies, $121 million to clean up industrial 
brownfield sites, $10 million to retrofit school buses to reduce their 
emissions, $73 million to repair or remove leaking underground storage tanks 
and, finally $1.2 billion to clean up Superfund sites.  That's something 
like just under $3 billion on cleaning up our environmental messes.


I agree that this Administration has been rather relaxed on helping to 
prevent environment problems, but then can you blame them?  Many of the 
members of this administration are from either the oil or defense 
industries, two areas that are the worse contributors to enviromnental 
destruction there ever was.  To them, saving the environment means losing 
money.  And it is our fault for putting them in office (well not my fault, I 
voted Libertarian).  Next time let's keep the money-grubbing, 
wilderness-drilling, nation-conquering, "we don't count civilian casualties" 
politicians out of office in the next election, and maybe we will have a 
chance to save the environment (and our own pocketbooks).


I encourage you to look at the budget and determine for yourself what they 
are wasting our money on.  Go to 
http://www.gpoaccess.gov/usbudget/fy06/browse.html to look at the budget.


Thanks,

Earl Kinsley

- Original Message - 
From: "Paddy O'Reilly" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

To: 
Sent: Wednesday, June 29, 2005 5:13 AM
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Hybrid Diesel





I do
agree, though, that that was a heck of an expensive program for the U.S.
taxpayer.







I'm sorry, but I have to comment on what's being said here.
Basically, the American tax dollar is begrudgingly given to help with
cleaning up our environment to the tune of 210 million (ever deflating)
US dollars yet a blind eye is being cast on the HUNDREDS OF BILLIONS of
those same dollars being wasted on the beloved American Defence Budget.
I heard somewhere that the INCREASE in the American defence budget this
year exceeds the total defence budgets of the next five largest defence
budgets of other "superpowers" put together.

And George won't even consider cancelling third nation debt (I suppose
it doesn't hold any immediate return for him so he doesn't care).

So putting the whole thing into perspective, the payment of 0.175% of
the American defence budget (which will be spent on developing new and
improved ways of wiping out the planet in the shortest time possible) on
helping some other Americans develop ways of reducing our dependence on
the Earth's natural resources is a waste of money while creating weapons
of mass destruction isn't.

Hmmm, methinks there's a slight imbalance in priorities here. The term
"Heck of an expensive program(me)" should be reserved for George Dubya's
retirement fund (aka defence budget).


As expensive as today's oil consumption is proving to be, in so many
different ways? And not just for the US taxpayer either.




IIRC, under PNGV the US gave $70 million to each of the big 3
automakers to come up with these 'possible vehicles'.




I've cut out as much as is reasonable from this email trail to preserve
bandwidth. Hope it still makes sense.
By the way, I'm using English spelling in this mail not the American
mutated version.


The information contained in this e-mail and in any attachments is 
confidential and is designated solely for the attention of the intended 
recipient(s). If you are not an intended recipient, you must not use, 
disclose, copy, distribute or retain this e-mail or any part thereof. If 
you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender by return 
e-mail and delete all copies of this e-mail from your computer system(s).

Please direct any additional queries to: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Thank You.








___
Biofuel mailing list
Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/bio

RE: [Biofuel] Hybrid Diesel

[Bill Vaughn]

To me the VW diesels sold in America are the best bang for the buck. They 
get 50mpg and they can be ran on biodiesel. My total cost per gallon for 
biodiesel is way less than $1 US. As long as I can make my own fuel I will 
be making it and I buy nothing but diesels. To me a diesel hybrid is not 
worth the extra expense because of the hybrid part. Economical diesels are 
the way to go.


Bill


From: "Thompson, Mark L. (PNB R&D)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
To: 
Subject: RE: [Biofuel] Hybrid Diesel
Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 11:11:24 -0700

Yes but there is the issue of Battery life and cost.
The batteries are warranted for 8-10 year or 80K/100K miles.
Prorated - Who knows.
There cost is in the $7000 bracket.

So lets see, My Toyota Camry 1985 has 321K miles no rebuilds.
I will admit it is near death.
It get 27 odd MPG. 31 on the freeway.
I will make the assumption that maintained cost are about equal for both
cars.
Assume the same time period and fuel prices.

So my cost of ownership is (Toyota Camry)
Fuel consumed = 321,000/27 = 11888 gallons.
Fuel cost avg $1.50
Total fuel cost = $17,833
Cost per/year = $17,833/20years = $891 fuel costs.
Battery cost $0
total  = $891/year

So my cost of ownership is (VW Jetta)
Fuel consumed = 321,000/47 = 6829 gallons.
Fuel cost avg $1.50
Total fuel cost = $10,244
Cost per/year = $10,244/20years = $512 fuel costs.
Battery cost $0
total  = $512/year

As a Honda with a 80K/$7000 battery 2005 Honda Accord
mileage 30/37 = avg around 35 mpg

Fuel consumed = 321,000/35 = 9171 gallons.
Fuel cost avg $1.50
Total fuel cost = $13,757

Total batteries used @ 80k mile/bat  = 321/80 = 4.012 = 4
4 x 7000 = $28,000

Cost per/year = $13,757/20years = $687  fuel costs.
Cost per/year = $28,000/20years = $1400 Battery costs.
total  = $2100/year  @ 80K battery

Assume a 150K battery = 2 changes = $14,000
Cost per/year = $13,757/20years = $687  fuel costs.
Cost per/year = $14,000/20years = $700 Battery costs.
total  = $1387/year  @ 80K battery

As a Honda with a 100K/$7000 battery Insight
mileage 60/66 = avg around 63 mpg

Fuel consumed = 321,000/35 = 5095 gallons.
Fuel cost avg $1.50
Total fuel cost = $7,642

Total batteries used @ 100k mile/bat  = 321/100 = 3.21 = 3
3 x 7000 = $21,000

Cost per/year = $7,642/20years  = $328  fuel costs.
Cost per/year = $21,000/20years = $1050 Battery costs.
total  = $1378/year  @ 100K battery

Assume a 150K battery = 2 changes = $14,000
Cost per/year = $13,757/20years = $328  fuel costs.
Cost per/year = $14,000/20years = $700 Battery costs.
total  = $1028/year  @ 150K battery


Conclusion:
Toyota Camry 27mph  $891/year
Honda Accord$2100/year  @ 80K battery   135%
higher
Honda Accord$1387/year  @ 150K battery   56%
higher
Honda Insight   $1387/year  @ 100K battery   56%
higher
Honda Insight   $1024/year  @ 150K battery   14%
higher

VW Jetta$512/Year
Honda Accord$2100/year  @ 80K battery   310%
higher
Honda Accord$1387/year  @ 150K battery  170%
higher
Honda Insight   $1387/year  @ 100K battery  170%
higher
Honda Insight   $1024/year  @ 150K battery  100%
higher

So I see not cost benefit to Hybrids, my poor Camry is less
expensive.

And what about life expectancy. My last Diesel Rabbit was
retired at 450,000 miles. No rebuilds.

When gas get to $4+ a gallon then there could be a net advantage
to the hybrids, if the engine systems can last 20+ years.
But still will not compeate with the diesels.

Sorry the calculations do not include CO2 carbon credits.

Just random thoughts.
M




___
Biofuel mailing list
Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):
http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/

Re: [Biofuel] Hybrid Diesel

[Frantz DESPREZ]

Chris a écrit :

Wood gasification, using peat instead of wood?  (Burning the 'smoke' 
in a regular car engine.)


exactly

But Paddy was right when he objected me that it is not ecological. 
Peat-bogs are very special habitats for fauna and flora (i.e. 
carnivorous plants) and they need thousands years to regerenate. We 
should consider them as fossil carbon preserves (the future oil fields 
of Ireland ;-) ) and biodiversity preserves.
I was kidding because I worked in one "turf" extraction plant and the 
boss was running a furnace with it. The smell and the smoke were ... 
exotic to me. Guinness bier matched well with the smoky taste of the 
Irish stew cooked in the furnace.
Good remembers. But also, I was sorry to see how Ireland was spending 
it's natural ressources (not only peat, but also chemical pollution or 
sea overexploitation).
I hope that the Irish laws on environment protection have been improved, 
it's a so nice country.


frantz

___
Biofuel mailing list
Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):
http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/

Re: [Biofuel] Hybrid Diesel / turf

[Paddy O'Reilly]

Sorry - idle banter and off-topic rant about the state of diesel engines 
in Ireland.


[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

In a message dated 7/1/05 9:13:49 PM Eastern Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
writes:


<< hello paddy and frantz.

i didn't understand this exchange.  what's this about turf?  wold appreciate 
the education.


-chris


In a message dated 6/30/05 6:58:14 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

<< Believe me, with the amount of smoke coming from some of the exhausts 

its as if the vehicles were running on turf. However that route (pardon 

the pun) is being stopped since the government environment body has put 


a stop to the erosion of the countryside by turf-cutting. >>
 >>

just a guess, peat moss?
greg

___
Biofuel mailing list
Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):
http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/


 



The information contained in this e-mail and in any attachments is confidential 
and is designated solely for the attention of the intended recipient(s). If you 
are not an intended recipient, you must not use, disclose, copy, distribute or 
retain this e-mail or any part thereof. If you have received this e-mail in 
error, please notify the sender by return e-mail and delete all copies of this 
e-mail from your computer system(s).
Please direct any additional queries to: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Thank You.

___
Biofuel mailing list
Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):
http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/

Re: [Biofuel] Hybrid Diesel

[Chris]

Wood gasification, using peat instead of wood?  (Burning the 'smoke' in a 
regular car engine.)


Chris K
Cayce, SC

- Original Message - 
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

To: 
Sent: Friday, July 01, 2005 9:13 PM
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Hybrid Diesel



hello paddy and frantz.

i didn't understand this exchange.  what's this about turf?  wold 
appreciate

the education.

-chris


In a message dated 6/30/05 6:58:14 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

<< Believe me, with the amount of smoke coming from some of the exhausts

its as if the vehicles were running on turf. However that route (pardon

the pun) is being stopped since the government environment body has put

a stop to the erosion of the countryside by turf-cutting. >>


___
Biofuel mailing list
Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 
messages):

http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/





___
Biofuel mailing list
Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):
http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/

Re: [Biofuel] Hybrid Diesel / turf

[Newdlhead]

In a message dated 7/1/05 9:13:49 PM Eastern Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
writes:

<< hello paddy and frantz.
 
 i didn't understand this exchange.  what's this about turf?  wold appreciate 
 the education.
 
 -chris
 
 
 In a message dated 6/30/05 6:58:14 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
 
 << Believe me, with the amount of smoke coming from some of the exhausts 
 
 its as if the vehicles were running on turf. However that route (pardon 
 
 the pun) is being stopped since the government environment body has put 
 
 a stop to the erosion of the countryside by turf-cutting. >>
  >>

just a guess, peat moss?
greg

___
Biofuel mailing list
Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):
http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/

Re: [Biofuel] Hybrid Diesel

[capt3d]

hello paddy and frantz.

i didn't understand this exchange.  what's this about turf?  wold appreciate 
the education.

-chris


In a message dated 6/30/05 6:58:14 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

<< Believe me, with the amount of smoke coming from some of the exhausts 

its as if the vehicles were running on turf. However that route (pardon 

the pun) is being stopped since the government environment body has put 

a stop to the erosion of the countryside by turf-cutting. >>


___
Biofuel mailing list
Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):
http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/

Re: [Biofuel] Hybrid Diesel

[capt3d]

hi, frantz.  here in the usa we call that car-pooling!

-chris

In a message dated 6/30/05 5:23:40 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

<< "co-voiturage" (don't know the right 

translation in English : co-conveyance or car sharing ?). >>


___
Biofuel mailing list
Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):
http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/

Fwd: [Biofuel] Hybrid Diesel

[capt3d]

hi, mark.

i, too, am kind of skeptical about hybrids, and i have a lot of doubts about 
fuel cell vehicles as well.  but to be fair, the life expectancy of the 
battery units can only go up, and their cost only go down.

you also, even if only jokingly, raise a good point about the co2 credits.  
in spite of my own pessimism on that count, i have to admit that it's just 
possible such a system could be implemented here in the u.s.; down to the 
household level, even.  so this an unknown factor to consider in your equations.

an even more important factor, though one more difficult to measure in a way 
meaningful for your cost comparison, is the cost of global warming.  i can 
think of a number of scenarios which would be a hell of a kick in the 
pocketbook.

-chris
--- Begin Message ---
Yes but there is the issue of Battery life and cost. 
The batteries are warranted for 8-10 year or 80K/100K miles. 
Prorated - Who knows. 
There cost is in the $7000 bracket. 

So lets see, My Toyota Camry 1985 has 321K miles no rebuilds. 
I will admit it is near death. 
It get 27 odd MPG. 31 on the freeway.
I will make the assumption that maintained cost are about equal for both
cars.  
Assume the same time period and fuel prices. 

So my cost of ownership is (Toyota Camry)
Fuel consumed = 321,000/27 = 11888 gallons.
Fuel cost avg $1.50 
Total fuel cost = $17,833 
Cost per/year = $17,833/20years = $891 fuel costs. 
Battery cost $0
total  = $891/year   

So my cost of ownership is (VW Jetta)
Fuel consumed = 321,000/47 = 6829 gallons.
Fuel cost avg $1.50 
Total fuel cost = $10,244 
Cost per/year = $10,244/20years = $512 fuel costs. 
Battery cost $0
total  = $512/year   

As a Honda with a 80K/$7000 battery 2005 Honda Accord
mileage 30/37 = avg around 35 mpg

Fuel consumed = 321,000/35 = 9171 gallons.
Fuel cost avg $1.50 
Total fuel cost = $13,757   

Total batteries used @ 80k mile/bat  = 321/80 = 4.012 = 4 
4 x 7000 = $28,000

Cost per/year = $13,757/20years = $687  fuel costs. 
Cost per/year = $28,000/20years = $1400 Battery costs.  
total  = $2100/year  @ 80K battery 

Assume a 150K battery = 2 changes = $14,000
Cost per/year = $13,757/20years = $687  fuel costs. 
Cost per/year = $14,000/20years = $700 Battery costs.   
total  = $1387/year  @ 80K battery 

As a Honda with a 100K/$7000 battery Insight
mileage 60/66 = avg around 63 mpg

Fuel consumed = 321,000/35 = 5095 gallons.
Fuel cost avg $1.50 
Total fuel cost = $7,642

Total batteries used @ 100k mile/bat  = 321/100 = 3.21 = 3 
3 x 7000 = $21,000

Cost per/year = $7,642/20years  = $328  fuel costs. 
Cost per/year = $21,000/20years = $1050 Battery costs.  
total  = $1378/year  @ 100K battery 

Assume a 150K battery = 2 changes = $14,000
Cost per/year = $13,757/20years = $328  fuel costs. 
Cost per/year = $14,000/20years = $700 Battery costs.   
total  = $1028/year  @ 150K battery 


Conclusion:
Toyota Camry 27mph  $891/year
Honda Accord$2100/year  @ 80K battery   135%
higher  
Honda Accord$1387/year  @ 150K battery   56%
higher
Honda Insight   $1387/year  @ 100K battery   56%
higher  
Honda Insight   $1024/year  @ 150K battery   14%
higher  

VW Jetta$512/Year   
Honda Accord$2100/year  @ 80K battery   310%
higher  
Honda Accord$1387/year  @ 150K battery  170%
higher
Honda Insight   $1387/year  @ 100K battery  170%
higher  
Honda Insight   $1024/year  @ 150K battery  100%
higher  

So I see not cost benefit to Hybrids, my poor Camry is less
expensive. 

And what about life expectancy. My last Diesel Rabbit was
retired at 450,000 miles. No rebuilds. 

When gas get to $4+ a gallon then there could be a net advantage
to the hybrids, if the engine systems can last 20+ years. 
But still will not compeate with the diesels.   

Sorry the calculations do not include CO2 carbon credits.

Just random thoughts. 
M 



-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Bill Vaughn
Sent: Wednesday, June 29, 2005 8:25 AM
To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Subject: RE: [Biofuel] Hybrid Diesel


Mean while the Japanese figured out how to make hybrids at a prices to
sell 
to the American public. Seems there is a line waiting for the hybrids
now 
because of the souring gas prices. Again the big three are slow to
answer to 
the American public and their sinking sales prove once again they don't
have 
a clue.

Bill

>From: "RobT" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Reply-To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
>To: 
>Subject: RE: [Biofuel] Hybrid Diesel
>Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 09:47:50 -0400
>
>I worked on the Ford P2000 DIATA diesel hybrid for a few years in the 
>late 90's, as a engine

RE: [Biofuel] Hybrid Diesel

[Tim Schlueter]

Reminds me of this quote by Ronald Reagan almost 20 years ago:
"Government's view of the economy could be summed up in a few short
phrases: If it moves, tax it. If it keeps moving, regulate it. And if it
stops moving, subsidize it."  I suppose the idea behind this tax is to
make people pay the true cost of burning dino fuels.  I have to wonder
though for what this tax really pays?

Tim Schlueter
Missouri

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Chris Lloyd
Sent: Thursday, June 30, 2005 5:36 PM
To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Subject: RE: [Biofuel] Hybrid Diesel

> It also interesting to note that "tax" accounts for 69.9% of the total
cost!  Can that be right! <

YES it bloody well is and some places charge up to 7 dollars for a sized
US gallon.   Chris. 

Wessex Ferret Club  (http://www.wessexferretclub.co.uk)

 


-- 
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.323 / Virus Database: 267.8.7/34 - Release Date: 29/06/2005
 


___
Biofuel mailing list
Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.or
g

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000
messages):
http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/


___
Biofuel mailing list
Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):
http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/

Re: [Biofuel] Hybrid Diesel

[Newdlhead]

In a message dated 6/30/05 8:58:09 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

<< Unfortunately Ireland is becoming more and more a car-oriented country 
 and cyclists have to take to the pavement/footpath to feel safe. This is 
 in turn desensitising car drivers to the presence of other road users, 
 teaching cyclists to ignore correct rules of the road and cause even 
 more use of cars as parents consider it safer to drive their kids the 
 whole half mile to school rather than have them walk. >>

Great, just wait till the mcdonald franches take hold, those kids will get as 
heavy as those in the states.

___
Biofuel mailing list
Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):
http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/

RE: [Biofuel] Hybrid Diesel

[Chris Lloyd]

> It also interesting to note that "tax" accounts for 69.9% of the total
cost!  Can that be right! <

YES it bloody well is and some places charge up to 7 dollars for a sized
US gallon.   Chris. 

Wessex Ferret Club  (http://www.wessexferretclub.co.uk)

 


-- 
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.323 / Virus Database: 267.8.7/34 - Release Date: 29/06/2005
 


___
Biofuel mailing list
Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):
http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/

RE: [Biofuel] Hybrid Diesel

[Tim Schlueter]

The price of gas in UK is striking!  Attached is a fuel price report
published by The Automobile Association of UK.  I calculate the US
dollar cost of a US gallon of 95 octane(don't know ethanol content)
purchased in the UK to be $5.77.  This is closer to the Ireland cost
quoted below vs. the England quote.  Actually, this report shows Irish
gas costing more than English.  It also interesting to note that "tax"
accounts for 69.9% of the total cost!  Can that be right!  In Missouri
we pay $.3543/gallon or about 16%.

Tim Schlueter

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Paddy
O'Reilly
Sent: Wednesday, June 29, 2005 12:24 PM
To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Hybrid Diesel

I'm not sure what the average price of "gas" (aka petrol) is in the US, 
in Ireland it has just passed the Euro mark per litre - that's USD5.44 a

gallon and in England its about 90p per litre - that's USD8.17 a gallon.

Perhaps this kind of price in the US will be enough to get people's 
attention (George Bush and his cohorts would be delighted at this
price).

Unfortunately nothing significant is still being done in Europe about 
changing to biofuels.

Bill Vaughn wrote:

>
> Mean while the Japanese figured out how to make hybrids at a prices to

> sell to the American public. Seems there is a line waiting for the 
> hybrids now because of the souring gas prices. Again the big three are

> slow to answer to the American public and their sinking sales prove 
> once again they don't have a clue.
>
> Bill 



The information contained in this e-mail and in any attachments is
confidential and is designated solely for the attention of the intended
recipient(s). If you are not an intended recipient, you must not use,
disclose, copy, distribute or retain this e-mail or any part thereof. If
you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender by
return e-mail and delete all copies of this e-mail from your computer
system(s).
Please direct any additional queries to: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Thank You.

___
Biofuel mailing list
Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):
http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/

Re: [Biofuel] Hybrid Diesel

[Paddy O'Reilly]

Believe me, with the amount of smoke coming from some of the exhausts 
its as if the vehicles were running on turf. However that route (pardon 
the pun) is being stopped since the government environment body has put 
a stop to the erosion of the countryside by turf-cutting.


Unfortunately Ireland is becoming more and more a car-oriented country 
and cyclists have to take to the pavement/footpath to feel safe. This is 
in turn desensitising car drivers to the presence of other road users, 
teaching cyclists to ignore correct rules of the road and cause even 
more use of cars as parents consider it safer to drive their kids the 
whole half mile to school rather than have them walk.


Frantz DESPREZ wrote:


Paddy O'Reilly a écrit :

I'm not sure what the average price of "gas" (aka petrol) is in the 
US, in Ireland it has just passed the Euro mark per litre - that's 
USD5.44 a gallon and in England its about 90p per litre - that's 
USD8.17 a gallon.


Perhaps this kind of price in the US will be enough to get people's 
attention (George Bush and his cohorts would be delighted at this 
price).


Unfortunately nothing significant is still being done in Europe about 
changing to biofuels.



Hi,

In France, the average price is around 1,11 Euro per liter of gazoline 
(unleaded 95, it's more for 98) and 1 Euro for "gazole"(diesel), due 
to the huge (about 80% of price) taxes.
Compared to sunflower edible oil  first price at 1,10 Euro / liter or 
PLG at 0,66.
No legal way for commercial biofuels out of the industrial solution 
chosen by french gov. People begins to get out of invidualism and use 
more public transportations or "co-voiturage" (don't know the right 
translation in English : co-conveyance or car sharing ?).
And I do agree with last words of Paddy, and the political crisis in 
EU won't help it, especially with the british presidence for the next 
6 month according to recent news explaining that the whole 
agricultural areas of UK could  not  be enough to reach  EU  biofuels 
goals, and how T. Blair is opposed to EU continental countries on 
agricultural subsidies.


What's about running cars with "turf" in Irland ? ;-)

frantz
(3 trips in Eire since 1986)


___
Biofuel mailing list
Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 
messages):

http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/





The information contained in this e-mail and in any attachments is confidential 
and is designated solely for the attention of the intended recipient(s). If you 
are not an intended recipient, you must not use, disclose, copy, distribute or 
retain this e-mail or any part thereof. If you have received this e-mail in 
error, please notify the sender by return e-mail and delete all copies of this 
e-mail from your computer system(s).
Please direct any additional queries to: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Thank You.begin:vcard
fn:Paddy O'Reilly
n:O'Reilly;Paddy
org:Silicon & Software Systems;Digital Consumer Business Unit
adr:Model Farm Road;;Cork Business & Technology Park;Cork;;;Ireland
email;internet:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
title:Senior IC Design Engineer
tel;work:+353 21 230 2400
url:http://www.s3group.com
version:2.1
end:vcard

___
Biofuel mailing list
Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):
http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/

Re: [Biofuel] Hybrid Diesel

[Frantz DESPREZ]

Paddy O'Reilly a écrit :

I'm not sure what the average price of "gas" (aka petrol) is in the 
US, in Ireland it has just passed the Euro mark per litre - that's 
USD5.44 a gallon and in England its about 90p per litre - that's 
USD8.17 a gallon.


Perhaps this kind of price in the US will be enough to get people's 
attention (George Bush and his cohorts would be delighted at this price).


Unfortunately nothing significant is still being done in Europe about 
changing to biofuels.



Hi,

In France, the average price is around 1,11 Euro per liter of gazoline 
(unleaded 95, it's more for 98) and 1 Euro for "gazole"(diesel), due to 
the huge (about 80% of price) taxes.
Compared to sunflower edible oil  first price at 1,10 Euro / liter or 
PLG at 0,66.
No legal way for commercial biofuels out of the industrial solution 
chosen by french gov. People begins to get out of invidualism and use 
more public transportations or "co-voiturage" (don't know the right 
translation in English : co-conveyance or car sharing ?).
And I do agree with last words of Paddy, and the political crisis in EU 
won't help it, especially with the british presidence for the next 6 
month according to recent news explaining that the whole agricultural 
areas of UK could  not  be enough to reach  EU  biofuels goals, and how 
T. Blair is opposed to EU continental countries on agricultural subsidies.


What's about running cars with "turf" in Irland ? ;-)

frantz
(3 trips in Eire since 1986)


___
Biofuel mailing list
Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):
http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/

RE: [Biofuel] Hybrid Diesel

Yes but there is the issue of Battery life and cost. 
The batteries are warranted for 8-10 year or 80K/100K miles. 
Prorated - Who knows. 
There cost is in the $7000 bracket. 

So lets see, My Toyota Camry 1985 has 321K miles no rebuilds. 
I will admit it is near death. 
It get 27 odd MPG. 31 on the freeway.
I will make the assumption that maintained cost are about equal for both
cars.  
Assume the same time period and fuel prices. 

So my cost of ownership is (Toyota Camry)
Fuel consumed = 321,000/27 = 11888 gallons.
Fuel cost avg $1.50 
Total fuel cost = $17,833 
Cost per/year = $17,833/20years = $891 fuel costs. 
Battery cost $0
total  = $891/year   

So my cost of ownership is (VW Jetta)
Fuel consumed = 321,000/47 = 6829 gallons.
Fuel cost avg $1.50 
Total fuel cost = $10,244 
Cost per/year = $10,244/20years = $512 fuel costs. 
Battery cost $0
total  = $512/year   

As a Honda with a 80K/$7000 battery 2005 Honda Accord
mileage 30/37 = avg around 35 mpg

Fuel consumed = 321,000/35 = 9171 gallons.
Fuel cost avg $1.50 
Total fuel cost = $13,757   

Total batteries used @ 80k mile/bat  = 321/80 = 4.012 = 4 
4 x 7000 = $28,000

Cost per/year = $13,757/20years = $687  fuel costs. 
Cost per/year = $28,000/20years = $1400 Battery costs.  
total  = $2100/year  @ 80K battery 

Assume a 150K battery = 2 changes = $14,000
Cost per/year = $13,757/20years = $687  fuel costs. 
Cost per/year = $14,000/20years = $700 Battery costs.   
total  = $1387/year  @ 80K battery 

As a Honda with a 100K/$7000 battery Insight
mileage 60/66 = avg around 63 mpg

Fuel consumed = 321,000/35 = 5095 gallons.
Fuel cost avg $1.50 
Total fuel cost = $7,642

Total batteries used @ 100k mile/bat  = 321/100 = 3.21 = 3 
3 x 7000 = $21,000

Cost per/year = $7,642/20years  = $328  fuel costs. 
Cost per/year = $21,000/20years = $1050 Battery costs.  
total  = $1378/year  @ 100K battery 

Assume a 150K battery = 2 changes = $14,000
Cost per/year = $13,757/20years = $328  fuel costs. 
Cost per/year = $14,000/20years = $700 Battery costs.   
total  = $1028/year  @ 150K battery 


Conclusion:
Toyota Camry 27mph  $891/year
Honda Accord$2100/year  @ 80K battery   135%
higher  
Honda Accord$1387/year  @ 150K battery   56%
higher
Honda Insight   $1387/year  @ 100K battery   56%
higher  
Honda Insight   $1024/year  @ 150K battery   14%
higher  

VW Jetta$512/Year   
Honda Accord$2100/year  @ 80K battery   310%
higher  
Honda Accord$1387/year  @ 150K battery  170%
higher
Honda Insight   $1387/year  @ 100K battery  170%
higher  
Honda Insight   $1024/year  @ 150K battery  100%
higher  

So I see not cost benefit to Hybrids, my poor Camry is less
expensive. 

And what about life expectancy. My last Diesel Rabbit was
retired at 450,000 miles. No rebuilds. 

When gas get to $4+ a gallon then there could be a net advantage
to the hybrids, if the engine systems can last 20+ years. 
But still will not compeate with the diesels.   

Sorry the calculations do not include CO2 carbon credits.

Just random thoughts. 
M 



-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Bill Vaughn
Sent: Wednesday, June 29, 2005 8:25 AM
To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Subject: RE: [Biofuel] Hybrid Diesel


Mean while the Japanese figured out how to make hybrids at a prices to
sell 
to the American public. Seems there is a line waiting for the hybrids
now 
because of the souring gas prices. Again the big three are slow to
answer to 
the American public and their sinking sales prove once again they don't
have 
a clue.

Bill

>From: "RobT" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Reply-To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
>To: 
>Subject: RE: [Biofuel] Hybrid Diesel
>Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 09:47:50 -0400
>
>I worked on the Ford P2000 DIATA diesel hybrid for a few years in the 
>late 90's, as a engine control systems engineer.
>
>It was a research vehicle, part of the PNGV initiative.  A pretty cool 
>and functional hybrid -- a large 4-door car (larger inside than a 
>Taurus) with reasonable power.  I got around 60-70 mpg in real-world 
>driving, a bit higher on the EPA test cycles.
>
>The engine and hybrid system were all pretty close to currently 
>in-production stuff, with the exception of batteries and exhaust 
>aftertr

Re: [Biofuel] Hybrid Diesel

[Paddy O'Reilly]

I'm not sure what the average price of "gas" (aka petrol) is in the US, 
in Ireland it has just passed the Euro mark per litre - that's USD5.44 a 
gallon and in England its about 90p per litre - that's USD8.17 a gallon.


Perhaps this kind of price in the US will be enough to get people's 
attention (George Bush and his cohorts would be delighted at this price).


Unfortunately nothing significant is still being done in Europe about 
changing to biofuels.


Bill Vaughn wrote:



Mean while the Japanese figured out how to make hybrids at a prices to 
sell to the American public. Seems there is a line waiting for the 
hybrids now because of the souring gas prices. Again the big three are 
slow to answer to the American public and their sinking sales prove 
once again they don't have a clue.


Bill 




The information contained in this e-mail and in any attachments is confidential 
and is designated solely for the attention of the intended recipient(s). If you 
are not an intended recipient, you must not use, disclose, copy, distribute or 
retain this e-mail or any part thereof. If you have received this e-mail in 
error, please notify the sender by return e-mail and delete all copies of this 
e-mail from your computer system(s).
Please direct any additional queries to: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Thank You.begin:vcard
fn:Paddy O'Reilly
n:O'Reilly;Paddy
org:Silicon & Software Systems;Digital Consumer Business Unit
adr:Model Farm Road;;Cork Business & Technology Park;Cork;;;Ireland
email;internet:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
title:Senior IC Design Engineer
tel;work:+353 21 230 2400
url:http://www.s3group.com
version:2.1
end:vcard

___
Biofuel mailing list
Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):
http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/

RE: [Biofuel] Hybrid Diesel

[Bill Vaughn]

Mean while the Japanese figured out how to make hybrids at a prices to sell 
to the American public. Seems there is a line waiting for the hybrids now 
because of the souring gas prices. Again the big three are slow to answer to 
the American public and their sinking sales prove once again they don't have 
a clue.


Bill


From: "RobT" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
To: 
Subject: RE: [Biofuel] Hybrid Diesel
Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 09:47:50 -0400

I worked on the Ford P2000 DIATA diesel hybrid for a few years in the late
90's, as a engine control systems engineer.

It was a research vehicle, part of the PNGV initiative.  A pretty cool and
functional hybrid -- a large 4-door car (larger inside than a Taurus) with
reasonable power.  I got around 60-70 mpg in real-world driving, a bit
higher on the EPA test cycles.

The engine and hybrid system were all pretty close to currently
in-production stuff, with the exception of batteries and exhaust
aftertreatment.  The cost of the vehicle, though, was way high, much to 
high

for a marketable car.

To get the weight down to 2000 lbs curb weight, we had expensive aluminum,
magnesium, and titanium components everywhere.  Titanium lugnuts?  $200
each.  Magnesium wheels?  

I doubt it could have been produced for less than $50,000 US, even given
economies of scale.  Fun stuff to play with, though.

So, I don't think there is a magic vehicle being hidden from us.  I do
agree, though, that that was a heck of an expensive program for the U.S.
taxpayer.  IIRC, under PNGV the US gave $70 million to each of the big 3
automakers to come up with these 'possible vehicles'.

-- RobT




___
Biofuel mailing list
Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):
http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/

RE: [Biofuel] Hybrid Diesel

[Mel Riser]

Title: RE: [Biofuel] Hybrid Diesel





you can always try the wayback internet time machine.
 
I'm always AMAZED at what it remembers.
 
if it was publicly available, and in a search engine, chances are it is in 
the time machine
 
http://www.archive.org/web/web.php

  -Original Message- From: Keith Addison 
  [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wed 6/29/2005 3:51 AM 
  To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Cc: Subject: 
  RE: [Biofuel] Hybrid Diesel
  Hello Tony>Greetings, All ->>The loss 
  of the PNGV links at NREL is no surprise.Not really, 
  no.>The Feds are deleting online files by the gross. Anything that 
  makes>them out for what they are is going, going... 
  Gone.>>Keith - If you still have the old links, I suppose I 
  could play with>the 'wayback machine' and see if I can get partial 
  pages. Images are>very unlikely, but text should be 
  there.That's a good idea - I'll dig up some backups and see what I can 
  find. Thanks!>What goes on here (on this list) is critical - There 
  are a painful>few 'real' researchers out there working this problem 
  (U.S. anyway).>It is up to us...Yes... and many others like us. 
  Painfully few as a proportion of thewhole, it's true, but many in number, 
  and it's growing fast. Look atthe growth of the blogosphere, for one 
  instance - sure, there's a lotof woolly nonsense there, but there's a lot 
  of good solid stuff too,that you don't find anywhere else, more and more 
  of it, and it hasits effect. Maybe the number's more important than the 
  proportion.Best 
  wishesKeith___Biofuel 
  mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel 
  at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch 
  the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/


___
Biofuel mailing list
Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):
http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/

Re: [Biofuel] Hybrid Diesel

[Paddy O'Reilly]

I do
agree, though, that that was a heck of an expensive program for the U.S.
taxpayer.
   



 


I'm sorry, but I have to comment on what's being said here.
Basically, the American tax dollar is begrudgingly given to help with 
cleaning up our environment to the tune of 210 million (ever deflating) 
US dollars yet a blind eye is being cast on the HUNDREDS OF BILLIONS of 
those same dollars being wasted on the beloved American Defence Budget. 
I heard somewhere that the INCREASE in the American defence budget this 
year exceeds the total defence budgets of the next five largest defence 
budgets of other "superpowers" put together.


And George won't even consider cancelling third nation debt (I suppose 
it doesn't hold any immediate return for him so he doesn't care).


So putting the whole thing into perspective, the payment of 0.175% of 
the American defence budget (which will be spent on developing new and 
improved ways of wiping out the planet in the shortest time possible) on 
helping some other Americans develop ways of reducing our dependence on 
the Earth's natural resources is a waste of money while creating weapons 
of mass destruction isn't.


Hmmm, methinks there's a slight imbalance in priorities here. The term 
"Heck of an expensive program(me)" should be reserved for George Dubya's 
retirement fund (aka defence budget).


As expensive as today's oil consumption is proving to be, in so many 
different ways? And not just for the US taxpayer either.


 


IIRC, under PNGV the US gave $70 million to each of the big 3
automakers to come up with these 'possible vehicles'.
   



I've cut out as much as is reasonable from this email trail to preserve 
bandwidth. Hope it still makes sense.
By the way, I'm using English spelling in this mail not the American 
mutated version.



The information contained in this e-mail and in any attachments is confidential 
and is designated solely for the attention of the intended recipient(s). If you 
are not an intended recipient, you must not use, disclose, copy, distribute or 
retain this e-mail or any part thereof. If you have received this e-mail in 
error, please notify the sender by return e-mail and delete all copies of this 
e-mail from your computer system(s).
Please direct any additional queries to: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Thank You.begin:vcard
fn:Paddy O'Reilly
n:O'Reilly;Paddy
org:Silicon & Software Systems;Digital Consumer Business Unit
adr:Model Farm Road;;Cork Business & Technology Park;Cork;;;Ireland
email;internet:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
title:Senior IC Design Engineer
tel;work:+353 21 230 2400
url:http://www.s3group.com
version:2.1
end:vcard

___
Biofuel mailing list
Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):
http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/

RE: [Biofuel] Hybrid Diesel

[Keith Addison]

Hello Tony


Greetings, All -

The loss of the PNGV links at NREL is no surprise.


Not really, no.

The Feds are deleting online files by the gross. Anything that makes 
them out for what they are is going, going... Gone.


Keith - If you still have the old links, I suppose I could play with 
the 'wayback machine' and see if I can get partial pages. Images are 
very unlikely, but text should be there.


That's a good idea - I'll dig up some backups and see what I can find. Thanks!

What goes on here (on this list) is critical - There are a painful 
few 'real' researchers out there working this problem (U.S. anyway). 
It is up to us...


Yes... and many others like us. Painfully few as a proportion of the 
whole, it's true, but many in number, and it's growing fast. Look at 
the growth of the blogosphere, for one instance - sure, there's a lot 
of woolly nonsense there, but there's a lot of good solid stuff too, 
that you don't find anywhere else, more and more of it, and it has 
its effect. Maybe the number's more important than the proportion.


Best wishes

Keith


___
Biofuel mailing list
Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):
http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/

RE: [Biofuel] Hybrid Diesel

[Tony DeCarmine]

Greetings, All -

The loss of the PNGV links at NREL is no surprise. The Feds are deleting 
online files by the gross. Anything that makes them out for what they 
are is going, going... Gone.


Keith - If you still have the old links, I suppose I could play with the 
'wayback machine' and see if I can get partial pages. Images are very 
unlikely, but text should be there.


What goes on here (on this list) is critical - There are a painful few 
'real' researchers out there working this problem (U.S. anyway). It is 
up to us...




--
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.323 / Virus Database: 267.8.5/32 - Release Date: 6/27/2005


___
Biofuel mailing list
Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):
http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/

RE: [Biofuel] Hybrid Diesel

[RobT]

I think a lot of 'facts' thrown around about those PNGV hybrids were
actually computer projected performance statistics, not actual measurements.
That was certainly true for Ford and Chrysler at least.  Chrysler was
reporting fuel economy results well before they had any driveable vehicle,
and Ford stuck with their computer-generated 80mpg predictions for maybe a
year after learning that the actual vehicle was ending up around 65-70mpg.

At Ford, some of the hybrid vehicle development systems did percolate from
the PNGV research program to the Ford Escape hybrid production program.
Different priorities and much lower fuel economy there, although it does a
decent job of improving the fuel economy of the base vehicle.

About the marketplace and the technology, though:  Even manufacturers who do
have high fuel economy technology, and have put it into large-scale
production, aren't bringing these vehicles to the US.  The VW Lupo and Smart
cars come to mind first, just because I've seen or read about them recently.

It seems to me that barriers to this technology making it from the research
lab to the showroom (in the US) include:
- lazy manufacturers (already tooled up for high-profit-margin
trucks and SUVs, why change?)
- lazy consumers (everyone else drives a big truck, I think I'll get
me one too)
- legal hurdles (difficult to emissions-certify diesel cars in the
US, and crash-test certify small cars)

I don't mean to support the US manufacturers or market system too much,
though.  I quit working for Ford out of frustration years ago, moved out of
the city, and currently drive a Mexican-made VW TDI diesel that was cheap,
and gets 49-50 mpg(US).

-- Rob


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Keith Addison
Sent: Tuesday, June 28, 2005 12:31 PM
To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Subject: RE: [Biofuel] Hybrid Diesel


Hello Rob

>I worked on the Ford P2000 DIATA diesel hybrid for a few years in the late
>90's, as a engine control systems engineer.
>
>It was a research vehicle, part of the PNGV initiative.  A pretty cool and
>functional hybrid -- a large 4-door car (larger inside than a Taurus) with
>reasonable power.  I got around 60-70 mpg in real-world driving, a bit
>higher on the EPA test cycles.
>
>The engine and hybrid system were all pretty close to currently
>in-production stuff, with the exception of batteries and exhaust
>aftertreatment.  The cost of the vehicle, though, was way high, much to
high
>for a marketable car.
>
>To get the weight down to 2000 lbs curb weight, we had expensive aluminum,
>magnesium, and titanium components everywhere.  Titanium lugnuts?  $200
>each.  Magnesium wheels?  
>
>I doubt it could have been produced for less than $50,000 US, even given
>economies of scale.

They were succeeding in bring the prices down to near-marketability 
when the program was axed. I'm not sure about Ford's Prodigy, but the 
Dodge ESX3 PNGV diesel hybrid got down to about $27,500 by early 2000.
http://www.detnews.com/2000/autos/0002/23/02230070.htm

DaimlerChrysler cut the "cost penalty" from $60,000 down to $7,500. 
GM predicted that it would have production prototypes ready in 2004, 
with cars for sale to follow.

>Fun stuff to play with, though.

Play? "It is possible to produce a mid-size family sedan that gets 80 
miles per gallon. It won't be cheap," said a Washington Post article 
on PNGV in 2001. What does cheap mean? As cheap as oil imports to the 
US are today, very much of which is wasted? Fuel economy hasn't 
improved in 20 years or more in the US, what's the cost of that 
exactly? An impossible dream? PNGV shows it's not impossible at all, 
even in the US.

>So, I don't think there is a magic vehicle being hidden from us.

Not magic, but it's certainly been buried and it shouldn't have been. 
Did you read these?

>Driving In Circles
>http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/msg10943.html
>
>Fool Cells - How Detroit Plays Americans For A Bunch Of Suckers
>http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/msg20667.html
>
>See also the Mokhiber-Weissman review of Jack Doyle's book, "Taken
>for a Ride: Detroit's Big Three and the Politics of Pollution":
>http://lists.essential.org/pipermail/corp-focus/2000/31.html

Where's the technology now? It was intended to percolate into the 
general technology base in the US, they said it was doing exactly 
that, and instead it vanished. "All told, of the 129 technology 
achievements and innovations arising from the Precept program, 47 of 
them are global industry firsts and about 75 percent have some sort 
of potential core product application. Nearly 40 of those 
achievements and innovations are in the propulsion sys

[Biofuel] Hybrid Diesel

[Douglas Smith]

I believe that Daimler-Chrysler has been working on diesel hybrids for 
some time. Their new "R Class" Grand Sports Tourer was originally a 
diesel hybrid, and it looks as if this may ultimately be available 
here. The R Class is being introduced this year in the US I think, as a 
gasoline model.


I've also read that D-C is involved in a large project involving 
production of bio-diesel with some fuel company. Not sure about this, 
but it has seemed to me that D-C is VERY much on the march to soon 
produce diesel hybrid vehicles.


As for high cost and titanium lug nuts...if Ford can already field a 
gas hybrid SUV at a marketable cost, why on earth would a diesel hybrid 
be more costly and/or need special metals?


Doug


___
Biofuel mailing list
Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):
http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/

RE: [Biofuel] Hybrid Diesel

[Mel Riser]

Title: RE: [Biofuel] Hybrid Diesel






solomon technologies has a hybrid Sailboat /diesel/electic system.

the largest shipping motor they have in production is a 12 hp but they have a 20 hp 1000rpm engine in testing right now.

We have been in discussions with them about a hybrid system for a sailboat my brother and I are starting construction on next summer.

however the 20 hp MIGHT be really good for a car as well as it does regenerative chrging when the sailboat is under sail.

http://www.solomontechnologies.com

interesting reading regardless.

mel



___
Biofuel mailing list
Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):
http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/

RE: [Biofuel] Hybrid Diesel

[Keith Addison]

Hello Rob


I worked on the Ford P2000 DIATA diesel hybrid for a few years in the late
90's, as a engine control systems engineer.

It was a research vehicle, part of the PNGV initiative.  A pretty cool and
functional hybrid -- a large 4-door car (larger inside than a Taurus) with
reasonable power.  I got around 60-70 mpg in real-world driving, a bit
higher on the EPA test cycles.

The engine and hybrid system were all pretty close to currently
in-production stuff, with the exception of batteries and exhaust
aftertreatment.  The cost of the vehicle, though, was way high, much to high
for a marketable car.

To get the weight down to 2000 lbs curb weight, we had expensive aluminum,
magnesium, and titanium components everywhere.  Titanium lugnuts?  $200
each.  Magnesium wheels?  

I doubt it could have been produced for less than $50,000 US, even given
economies of scale.


They were succeeding in bring the prices down to near-marketability 
when the program was axed. I'm not sure about Ford's Prodigy, but the 
Dodge ESX3 PNGV diesel hybrid got down to about $27,500 by early 2000.

http://www.detnews.com/2000/autos/0002/23/02230070.htm

DaimlerChrysler cut the "cost penalty" from $60,000 down to $7,500. 
GM predicted that it would have production prototypes ready in 2004, 
with cars for sale to follow.



Fun stuff to play with, though.


Play? "It is possible to produce a mid-size family sedan that gets 80 
miles per gallon. It won't be cheap," said a Washington Post article 
on PNGV in 2001. What does cheap mean? As cheap as oil imports to the 
US are today, very much of which is wasted? Fuel economy hasn't 
improved in 20 years or more in the US, what's the cost of that 
exactly? An impossible dream? PNGV shows it's not impossible at all, 
even in the US.



So, I don't think there is a magic vehicle being hidden from us.


Not magic, but it's certainly been buried and it shouldn't have been. 
Did you read these?



Driving In Circles
http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/msg10943.html

Fool Cells - How Detroit Plays Americans For A Bunch Of Suckers
http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/msg20667.html

See also the Mokhiber-Weissman review of Jack Doyle's book, "Taken
for a Ride: Detroit's Big Three and the Politics of Pollution":
http://lists.essential.org/pipermail/corp-focus/2000/31.html


Where's the technology now? It was intended to percolate into the 
general technology base in the US, they said it was doing exactly 
that, and instead it vanished. "All told, of the 129 technology 
achievements and innovations arising from the Precept program, 47 of 
them are global industry firsts and about 75 percent have some sort 
of potential core product application. Nearly 40 of those 
achievements and innovations are in the propulsion system alone." 
Shelved. And you guys buy Insights and Prius's instead like a bunch 
of mugs.


A Tale of Two Countries, by David Morris
http://www.alternet.org/story.html?StoryID=17333

From one PNGV program report in 2000:

Daimler Chrysler's Jim Holden said he drove to the press conference 
in a new Dodge Durango SUV with a hybrid gas electric power train 
that is 20 percent more fuel efficient than the conventional 
Durango. GM sells about 20,000 Durangos a year, Holden said, and 
"with a little bit of help on the tax side," the hybrid Durango 
could be "on the road in the very near term."  The Big Three want 
Congress to pass legislation supported by the White House that would 
give a tax credit of up to $4,000 to consumers who buy these new, 
fuel efficient vehicles.


But the tax credits go to SUVs. "Unfortunately, Congress has refused 
to act on our package of consumer tax credits -- including credits of 
up to $4,000 for consumers to purchase the next generation of fuel 
efficient vehicles." - GM, 10/20/2000



I do
agree, though, that that was a heck of an expensive program for the U.S.
taxpayer.


As expensive as today's oil consumption is proving to be, in so many 
different ways? And not just for the US taxpayer either.



IIRC, under PNGV the US gave $70 million to each of the big 3
automakers to come up with these 'possible vehicles'.


More than that I think.

Funny how there's less and less to be seen about these vehicles and 
the PNGV program. I keep having to change/kill the links on our 
section on them at Journey to Forever. For instance, a new one, enter 
"pngv" at NREL's search page and you get this message (note the url):


http://search.nrel.gov/go_away.html
This page is intentionally blank.

LOL!

I did the search after finding that NREL's pages on PNGV had vanished.

Best wishes

Keith



-- RobT

-----Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Keith Addison
Sent: Tuesday, June

RE: [Biofuel] Hybrid Diesel

[RobT]

I worked on the Ford P2000 DIATA diesel hybrid for a few years in the late
90's, as a engine control systems engineer.

It was a research vehicle, part of the PNGV initiative.  A pretty cool and
functional hybrid -- a large 4-door car (larger inside than a Taurus) with
reasonable power.  I got around 60-70 mpg in real-world driving, a bit
higher on the EPA test cycles.

The engine and hybrid system were all pretty close to currently
in-production stuff, with the exception of batteries and exhaust
aftertreatment.  The cost of the vehicle, though, was way high, much to high
for a marketable car.

To get the weight down to 2000 lbs curb weight, we had expensive aluminum,
magnesium, and titanium components everywhere.  Titanium lugnuts?  $200
each.  Magnesium wheels?    

I doubt it could have been produced for less than $50,000 US, even given
economies of scale.  Fun stuff to play with, though.

So, I don't think there is a magic vehicle being hidden from us.  I do
agree, though, that that was a heck of an expensive program for the U.S.
taxpayer.  IIRC, under PNGV the US gave $70 million to each of the big 3
automakers to come up with these 'possible vehicles'.

-- RobT

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Keith Addison
Sent: Tuesday, June 28, 2005 2:19 AM
To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Hybrid Diesel


Hello Ted

>I'm interested in organizing a coalition around hybrid
>electric/biodiesel vehicles.

Have you visited Darryl McMahon's website, Ecogenics?
http://www.econogics.com/

>I read that such products were
>manufactured early in the hybrid process, but later scrapped.

Do you mean PNGV? The Partnership for a New Generation of Vehicles 
project started by Al Gore. In collaboration with government the Big 
Three in Detroit each developed diesel-electric hybrids with fuel 
consumption of about 80mpg and were getting costs down to near 
marketability when the project was scrapped by the Bush 
administration in favour of the "Freedom Car". The technology, paid 
for with taxpayers' dollars, got stashed away in the vaults where 
they keep useful technology that might not be in their interests. 
Sorry to be cynical about it, but check these out:

Driving In Circles
http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/msg10943.html

Fool Cells - How Detroit Plays Americans For A Bunch Of Suckers
http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/msg20667.html

See also the Mokhiber-Weissman review of Jack Doyle's book, "Taken 
for a Ride: Detroit's Big Three and the Politics of Pollution":
http://lists.essential.org/pipermail/corp-focus/2000/31.html

See PNGV about halfway down:
http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_future.html
Do diesels have a future?

There's this, from a post in one of those threads:

>During the Clinton Administration, all the major U.S.
>auto manufacturers developed diesel-electric hybrid
>concept vehicles, in line with the "Partnership for a
>New Generation of Vehicle."  Some were more realistic
>than others, but all had high mileages, and all were
>unveiled 1998-2001.  Interesting that as soon as our
>current President took office, this initiative left
>the headlines.

But there's also this, from Doyle:

>Bush's proposal to provide for clean cars -- which is laudable on 
>its face -- is but the latest in a long line of Detroit-White House 
>"partnerships" dating to the Nixon-era that only provide diversion 
>and political cover, not actual clean cars.
>
>During the annual parade of auto shows in 2002, General Motors, a 
>company which has lost 25 points of market share since the '50s, 
>rolled out a futuristic-looking automotive underbody "skateboard" 
>called Autonomy. Someday -- GM didn't say exactly when -- Autonomy 
>would be crammed full of hydrogen-powered fuel cells and computers, 
>and smog would end. A few days after GM's show, U.S. Energy 
>Secretary of Energy, Spencer Abraham, and Sen. Carl Levin (D-Mich.), 
>were on hand with GM and DaimlerChrysler to announce the death of 
>one federal "supercar" program and the creation of another. Being 
>terminated was a Clinton-era program -- a 10-year joint venture with 
>Detroit known as the "Partnership for a New Generation of Vehicles" 
>(PNGV) that was supposed to produce an 80 mpg family car. In its 
>place, the Bush administration substituted a program focused not on 
>fuel-efficiency but on hydrogen fuel-cell technology, "Freedom Car." 
>However, most of these ventures go nowhere, as Clinton's "supercar" 
>program shows.
>
>At its September 1993 White House unveiling, Bill Clinton compared 
>the PNGV to the Apollo project that put a man on the moon. GM

Re: [Biofuel] Hybrid Diesel

[Keith Addison]

Hello Ted


I'm interested in organizing a coalition around hybrid
electric/biodiesel vehicles.


Have you visited Darryl McMahon's website, Ecogenics?
http://www.econogics.com/


I read that such products were
manufactured early in the hybrid process, but later scrapped.


Do you mean PNGV? The Partnership for a New Generation of Vehicles 
project started by Al Gore. In collaboration with government the Big 
Three in Detroit each developed diesel-electric hybrids with fuel 
consumption of about 80mpg and were getting costs down to near 
marketability when the project was scrapped by the Bush 
administration in favour of the "Freedom Car". The technology, paid 
for with taxpayers' dollars, got stashed away in the vaults where 
they keep useful technology that might not be in their interests. 
Sorry to be cynical about it, but check these out:


Driving In Circles
http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/msg10943.html

Fool Cells - How Detroit Plays Americans For A Bunch Of Suckers
http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/msg20667.html

See also the Mokhiber-Weissman review of Jack Doyle's book, "Taken 
for a Ride: Detroit's Big Three and the Politics of Pollution":

http://lists.essential.org/pipermail/corp-focus/2000/31.html

See PNGV about halfway down:
http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_future.html
Do diesels have a future?

There's this, from a post in one of those threads:


During the Clinton Administration, all the major U.S.
auto manufacturers developed diesel-electric hybrid
concept vehicles, in line with the "Partnership for a
New Generation of Vehicle."  Some were more realistic
than others, but all had high mileages, and all were
unveiled 1998-2001.  Interesting that as soon as our
current President took office, this initiative left
the headlines.


But there's also this, from Doyle:

Bush's proposal to provide for clean cars -- which is laudable on 
its face -- is but the latest in a long line of Detroit-White House 
"partnerships" dating to the Nixon-era that only provide diversion 
and political cover, not actual clean cars.


During the annual parade of auto shows in 2002, General Motors, a 
company which has lost 25 points of market share since the '50s, 
rolled out a futuristic-looking automotive underbody "skateboard" 
called Autonomy. Someday -- GM didn't say exactly when -- Autonomy 
would be crammed full of hydrogen-powered fuel cells and computers, 
and smog would end. A few days after GM's show, U.S. Energy 
Secretary of Energy, Spencer Abraham, and Sen. Carl Levin (D-Mich.), 
were on hand with GM and DaimlerChrysler to announce the death of 
one federal "supercar" program and the creation of another. Being 
terminated was a Clinton-era program -- a 10-year joint venture with 
Detroit known as the "Partnership for a New Generation of Vehicles" 
(PNGV) that was supposed to produce an 80 mpg family car. In its 
place, the Bush administration substituted a program focused not on 
fuel-efficiency but on hydrogen fuel-cell technology, "Freedom Car." 
However, most of these ventures go nowhere, as Clinton's "supercar" 
program shows.


At its September 1993 White House unveiling, Bill Clinton compared 
the PNGV to the Apollo project that put a man on the moon. GM's CEO 
at the time, Jack Smith, said the efficiency gains to come from the 
new venture would amount to "nothing less than a major, even 
radical, breakthrough." A whole new class of car would follow, he 
assured his listeners. Sold to Congress as a way to make the Big 
Three competitive with the Japanese, PNGV became the perfect 
political tool to keep Congress from moving to improve fuel economy, 
to tout as the industry's global warming fighter, and to help 
undermine California's electric vehicle program.


Meanwhile, as Detroit and Washington became comfortable in their 
new, 10-year research venture, the Japanese were making real 
improvements...


-- From: Fool Cells - How Detroit Plays Americans For A Bunch Of Suckers

There's also this:

PNGV funds were available only to American companies. Recipients 
agreed to unveil a concept car by 2000, a preproduction prototype by 
2004 and be in full production by 2010. All three, Ford, GM and 
DaimlerChrysler introduced concept cars in early 2000. And there 
development stopped. Why? Because the American car companies refused 
to commercialize a car they would initially lose money on, even if 
the losses would be temporary.


Daimler/Chrysler, for example, announced in 2000 that it would not 
commercialize its diesel hybrid (ESX3) because it cost $7,500 more 
to make than their comparable gasoline powered car, a Dodge 
Intrepid. As late as April 2002 General Motors' CEO and President G. 
Richard Wagoner Jr. told Business Week, "How will the economics of 
hybrids ever match that of the internal combustion engine? We can't 
afford to subsidize them."


-- From: A Tale of Two Countries, by David Morris
http://www.alternet.org/story.html?StoryI

[Biofuel] Hybrid Diesel

[Edward W. De Barbieri]

I'm interested in organizing a coalition around hybrid
electric/biodiesel vehicles.  I read that such products were
manufactured early in the hybrid process, but later scrapped.

My thinking is that excluding Dino Fuel entirely is the way to go,
without the difficutly of producing hydrogen fuel cells as well.

1: What exists already in this area?
2: Is anyone in the United States interested in collaborating on this project?

Ted De Barbieri

___
Biofuel mailing list
Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):
http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/

[Biofuel] hybrid diesel

[Gerald Johnson]

Todd: Type in Seattle hybrid buses and youâll find an order for 235 hybrid
diesel buses made by GM/Allison. Iâm so proud of British Columbia for their
large purchase of The Toyota Prius. Sixty so far for government use and many
Prius taxis hitting the streets. Seattle, Tacoma, and Olympia transit is
running BD and so is the Ferry system, which is the largest in the world.
Next northwest purchase will be hybrid/diesel garbage trucks and you can
only imagine the hundreds of tons of pollution being removed from
atmosphere. With the above forward thinking government officials


---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.775 / Virus Database: 522 - Release Date: 10/8/2004
___
Biofuel mailing list
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable):
http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/

[biofuel] Hybrid diesel-electric powertrains

[Keith Addison]

News from DieselNet:

Hybrid diesel-electric powertrains

+ Solectria launches cross-country drive of hybrid vehicle

Woburn, MA-based Solectria Corporation has launched a cross-country 
drive of a Class 7 truck with Solectria Corporation's "Super 7" drive 
system. The vehicle will visit 27 potential customers in 15 states 
during its five-week, 6,000 mile journey.

The "Super 7" is a hybrid diesel-electric system which is being 
developed to enable companies to comply with the U.S. EPA 2007 
emission standards for heavy-duty engines.

The Solectria hybrid system utilizes high-power ultracapacitors 
instead of the batteries used in other hybrid electric powertrains. 
The ultracapacitors are charged and discharged for low speed and peak 
energy demands, while the diesel engine handles the average demands.

http://www.solectria.com/news/super7.html


  + Hybrid buses tested in more North American cities

Hybrid diesel-electric urban buses provide an attractive concept for 
future urban transit systems and are being tested by increasing 
number of transit bus operators. Diesel hybrids are typically 
designed to match the NOx emissions levels of natural gas buses. When 
equipped with diesel particulate filters, which is often the case, 
they provide can provide over 90% reduction in PM emissions. Finally, 
under the stop-and-go type of operation typical for urban transit, 
hybrids can provide sizeable fuel economy improvement due to the 
regenerative braking which can recover a part of the braking energy.

A new hybrid bus demonstration was started in Salt Lake City, Utah, 
where hybrids are being operated by the Utah Transit Authority (UTA). 
The project is funded by grants from U.S. federal government 
programs. UTA engineers have reported positive feedback; the hybrids 
were found to reduce pollution and offer better acceleration relative 
to both CNG and conventional diesel.

A hybrid bus demonstration is also considered by the Société de 
transport de Montréal (STO), the public transit authority in 
Montreal, Quebec. STO applied to Transport Canada for a $10 M (CAD) 
grant to cover a part of the $30 M project. In Canada, who ratified 
the Kyoto protocol, an additional incentive for this technology is 
provided by reductions in CO2 emission due to the increased fuel 
economy of hybrids.

One of the major obstacles in wider commercialization of hybrid buses 
is their high price, on the order of $500,000 (USD), or about twice 
the cost of a conventional diesel bus.

Salt Lake City: http://www.sltrib.com/2003/Jul/07092003/utah/73715.asp
Montreal:   http://www.stm.info/English/info/comm-03/a-co030708.htm


 Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-->
Free shipping on all inkjet cartridge & refill kit orders to US & Canada. Low 
prices up to 80% off. We have your brand: HP, Epson, Lexmark & more.
http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5510
http://us.click.yahoo.com/GHXcIA/n.WGAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM
-~->

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Biofuels list archives:
http://archive.nnytech.net/

Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address.
To unsubscribe, send an email to:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ 

Re: [biofuel] Hybrid Diesel Motorcycle

[Steve Spence]

I did finally get to see a British Enfield diesel motorbike. Also the
Polaris diesel 4x4 and a Kawasaki diesel mule.


Steve Spence
Subscribe to the Renewable Energy Newsletter
& Discussion Boards. Read about Sustainable Technology:
http://www.green-trust.org
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
- Original Message -
From: "Keith Addison" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Monday, October 07, 2002 10:17 PM
Subject: Re: [biofuel] Hybrid Diesel Motorcycle


> biofueledenergy wrote:
>
> >I stay in touch with the manufacturer and yes there are plans to offer a
> >model to the public. I will email the list and yourself with an update
soon.
>
> Good news! Please do keep us informed.
>
> Best wishes
>
> Keith
>
>
> >In a message dated 10/7/2002 12:49:28 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
> >[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
> >
> >
> > >
> > > Has anyone heard anything more about the diesel 650 enduro that
Kawasaki
> > > was
> > > developing for the military? I'm mostly interested in whether it'll be
> > > offered to the public?
> > >
> > > Ed
>
>
>
> Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
> http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
>
> Biofuels list archives:
> http://archive.nnytech.net/
>
> Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address.
> To unsubscribe, send an email to:
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>


 Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-->
Sell a Home for Top $
http://us.click.yahoo.com/RrPZMC/jTmEAA/MVfIAA/FGYolB/TM
-~->

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Biofuels list archives:
http://archive.nnytech.net/

Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address.
To unsubscribe, send an email to:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ 

Re: [biofuel] Hybrid Diesel Motorcycle

[Keith Addison]

biofueledenergy wrote:

>I stay in touch with the manufacturer and yes there are plans to offer a
>model to the public. I will email the list and yourself with an update soon.

Good news! Please do keep us informed.

Best wishes

Keith


>In a message dated 10/7/2002 12:49:28 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
>[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
>
>
> >
> > Has anyone heard anything more about the diesel 650 enduro that Kawasaki
> > was
> > developing for the military? I'm mostly interested in whether it'll be
> > offered to the public?
> >
> > Ed


 Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-->
Home Selling? Try Us!
http://us.click.yahoo.com/QrPZMC/iTmEAA/MVfIAA/FGYolB/TM
-~->

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Biofuels list archives:
http://archive.nnytech.net/

Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address.
To unsubscribe, send an email to:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ 

Re: [biofuel] Hybrid Diesel Motorcycle

[biofueledenergy]

I stay in touch with the manufacturer and yes there are plans to offer a 
model to the public. I will email the list and yourself with an update soon.

In a message dated 10/7/2002 12:49:28 PM Pacific Daylight Time, 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:


> 
> Has anyone heard anything more about the diesel 650 enduro that Kawasaki 
> was
> developing for the military? I'm mostly interested in whether it'll be
> offered to the public?
> 
> Ed
> 



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


 Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-->
Sell a Home for Top $
http://us.click.yahoo.com/RrPZMC/jTmEAA/MVfIAA/FGYolB/TM
-~->

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Biofuels list archives:
http://archive.nnytech.net/

Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address.
To unsubscribe, send an email to:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ 

RE: [biofuel] Hybrid Diesel Motorcycle

[Hall, Edward C.]

Has anyone heard anything more about the diesel 650 enduro that Kawasaki was
developing for the military? I'm mostly interested in whether it'll be
offered to the public?

Ed
-


Lotsa diesel bikes here, by the way:
http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_bikes.html

The new military Kawasaki for NATO and the US is the most interesting one,
IMO.

Best

Keith

 Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-->
Plan to Sell a Home?
http://us.click.yahoo.com/J2SnNA/y.lEAA/MVfIAA/FGYolB/TM
-~->

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Biofuels list archives:
http://archive.nnytech.net/

Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address.
To unsubscribe, send an email to:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ 

RE: [biofuel] Hybrid Diesel Motorcycle

[Keith Addison]

>I just purchased a gasoline powered 2 cycle engine
>weedeater.
>
>I can remember some discussions concerning the use
>of Bio diesel instead of Dino oil to provide lubrication
>for the 2 cycle engine.
>
>How much Bio diesel do you add?
>
>I know that the ratio for Dino Oil is 32 parts gasoline
>and 1 part Dino oil (4 oz oil per gallon of gas).
>
>Also did someone use Ethanol and Bio diesel to run a
>2 cylce engine on a bike?
>
>T

Hello Tom

There's been sporadic discussion on biod as 2-cycle oil, but we've 
never had really definitive results - some non-definitive results 
below. If you try it, please let us know how you fare.

I believe the ethanol was used as a blend rather than a straight fuel 
- 10% ethanol with a 20:1 overall biod mix for the lube? Something 
like that.

Regards

Keith


Martin R. used biodiesel as two-stroke oil in his chain saw, at a mix 
of 20 to 1 with gasoline. "It works fine," he says. "After using the 
saw for 2.5 hours in one go on dead Australian hardwood with no 
hiccups I was very impressed to say the least."


> > In all my 2 Stroke engines , I use 20:1 Mix , better to blow some smoke
> > then one at all . no smoke make's your saw run leaner and hotter and
> > run the risk sizing your saw greater more oil will make your 2 stroke
> engine
> > last longer for spark plugs are cheaper then an engine rebuild and the
> > saw I use is a Dolmar chain saw
> > so I will use BD from now on  at 20:1 Mix


  Well, you'd think that at 20:1, just about anything would work,
considering that most 2-strokes nowadays use 50:1 and even 100:1 mixes.
I'd be hesitant, however, to use it in my expensive Stihl chainsaw, but
if someone had an older 2-stroke lawnmower that they didn't care about,
it would be interesting to try a 100:1 mix of straight BD and gas and
just let it run continuously for 5 gallons worth or so.


   Old two-stroke engines like yours usually have bronze wrist pin bearings
and thus require a richer oil mixture to adequately lube that bushing.
Incidentally in a two stroke you will often find the wrist pin bearing fails
first from poor lubrication (It is just much harder to get the oil into it!)
  I would recommend at least to stick with the 20-1 or even 15-1 seeing as
biodiesel is a "thinner" oil than normal two-stroke oil. I have no idea what
effect bio-diesel would have on the octane of gasoline but it probably isn't
so important on old engines because they usually have a very low c/r anyway


My favourite
2-stroke oil is Yamalube R racing oil at 40-1 mix and it, from the bottle is
almost as thin as biodiesel! It could be biodiesel is the lube we've been
looking for all these years.


 Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-->
Free $5 Love Reading
Risk Free!
http://us.click.yahoo.com/3PCXaC/PfREAA/Ey.GAA/FGYolB/TM
-~->

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Biofuels list archives:
http://archive.nnytech.net/

Please do NOT send "unsubscribe" messages to the list address.
To unsubscribe, send an email to:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ 

RE: [biofuel] Hybrid Diesel Motorcycle

[Mccall Tom WP US]

I just purchased a gasoline powered 2 cycle engine
weedeater.

I can remember some discussions concerning the use
of Bio diesel instead of Dino oil to provide lubrication
for the 2 cycle engine.   

How much Bio diesel do you add?

I know that the ratio for Dino Oil is 32 parts gasoline
and 1 part Dino oil (4 oz oil per gallon of gas).

Also did someone use Ethanol and Bio diesel to run a 
2 cylce engine on a bike?

T

-Original Message-
From: Sean Cook [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Sunday, June 16, 2002 5:19 AM
To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [biofuel] Hybrid Diesel Motorcycle


Gee I just want to buy one.,.,.,.,
so much for U.S. production.


-Original Message-
From: Keith Addison [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Saturday, June 15, 2002 10:46 PM
To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [biofuel] Hybrid Diesel Motorcycle


>http://www.ecycle.com/powersports/hybrid.htm

We've had that thing reffed from our website for more than a year,
and nothing seems to happen with it, still just the same, same old
pictures, still not in production. "eCycle plans to introduce the
hybrid motorcycle to beta testers in 2002." Tell you a secret - it's
been 2002 for awhile now. Is it just one of these schemes where it's
all just around the corner, just needs another few million or so?

Lotsa diesel bikes here, by the way:
http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_bikes.html

The new military Kawasaki for NATO and the US is the most interesting one,
IMO.

Best

Keith



Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Biofuels list archives:
http://archive.nnytech.net/

Please do NOT send "unsubscribe" messages to the list address.
To unsubscribe, send an email to:
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/




Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Biofuels list archives:
http://archive.nnytech.net/

Please do NOT send "unsubscribe" messages to the list address.
To unsubscribe, send an email to:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ 


 Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-->
Free $5 Love Reading
Risk Free!
http://us.click.yahoo.com/3PCXaC/PfREAA/Ey.GAA/FGYolB/TM
-~->

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Biofuels list archives:
http://archive.nnytech.net/

Please do NOT send "unsubscribe" messages to the list address.
To unsubscribe, send an email to:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ 

RE: [biofuel] Hybrid Diesel Motorcycle

[Sean Cook]

Gee I just want to buy one.,.,.,.,
so much for U.S. production.


-Original Message-
From: Keith Addison [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Saturday, June 15, 2002 10:46 PM
To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [biofuel] Hybrid Diesel Motorcycle


>http://www.ecycle.com/powersports/hybrid.htm

We've had that thing reffed from our website for more than a year,
and nothing seems to happen with it, still just the same, same old
pictures, still not in production. "eCycle plans to introduce the
hybrid motorcycle to beta testers in 2002." Tell you a secret - it's
been 2002 for awhile now. Is it just one of these schemes where it's
all just around the corner, just needs another few million or so?

Lotsa diesel bikes here, by the way:
http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_bikes.html

The new military Kawasaki for NATO and the US is the most interesting one,
IMO.

Best

Keith



Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Biofuels list archives:
http://archive.nnytech.net/

Please do NOT send "unsubscribe" messages to the list address.
To unsubscribe, send an email to:
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/



 Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-->
Free $5 Love Reading
Risk Free!
http://us.click.yahoo.com/3PCXaC/PfREAA/Ey.GAA/FGYolB/TM
-~->

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Biofuels list archives:
http://archive.nnytech.net/

Please do NOT send "unsubscribe" messages to the list address.
To unsubscribe, send an email to:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ 

Re: [biofuel] Hybrid Diesel Motorcycle

[Keith Addison]

>http://www.ecycle.com/powersports/hybrid.htm

We've had that thing reffed from our website for more than a year, 
and nothing seems to happen with it, still just the same, same old 
pictures, still not in production. "eCycle plans to introduce the 
hybrid motorcycle to beta testers in 2002." Tell you a secret - it's 
been 2002 for awhile now. Is it just one of these schemes where it's 
all just around the corner, just needs another few million or so?

Lotsa diesel bikes here, by the way:
http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_bikes.html

The new military Kawasaki for NATO and the US is the most interesting one, IMO.

Best

Keith


 Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-->
Free $5 Love Reading
Risk Free!
http://us.click.yahoo.com/3PCXaC/PfREAA/Ey.GAA/FGYolB/TM
-~->

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Biofuels list archives:
http://archive.nnytech.net/

Please do NOT send "unsubscribe" messages to the list address.
To unsubscribe, send an email to:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ 

[biofuel] Hybrid Diesel Motorcycle

[Appal Energy]

http://www.ecycle.com/powersports/hybrid.htm


 Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-->
Free $5 Love Reading
Risk Free!
http://us.click.yahoo.com/3PCXaC/PfREAA/Ey.GAA/FGYolB/TM
-~->

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Biofuels list archives:
http://archive.nnytech.net/

Please do NOT send "unsubscribe" messages to the list address.
To unsubscribe, send an email to:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/